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Inspiration

Recovery Through Radical Honesty:From Streets to Author

Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert
Mar 9, 2015
10 min read
Watch · 7

In 2015, on the stage of the Sydney Opera House at the All About Women Festival, a recovered heroin addict and published author shared the story of her transformation with an audience that didn't yet know who she was. Rayya Elias, author of the memoir Harley Loco: A Memoir of Hard Living, Hair, and Post Punk from the Middle East to the Lower East Side, took her seat beside her longtime friend Elizabeth Gilbert to discuss something rarely spoken aloud: how radical honesty, creative expression, and sheer refusal to accept a narrative of worthlessness can resurrect a life thought to be lost. What unfolded was not a typical recovery narrative—not a clean arc where the drugs stop and life improves predictably. Instead, it was an exploration of alchemy: the slow, difficult work of transforming the wreckage of a shattered life into something whole, meaningful, and powerful enough to teach others. As Elizabeth Gilbert noted, there's an old adage that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But with Rayya, Gilbert suggested, we're witnessing the evidence that this is actually possible—that it's not just theory but lived reality.

Read · 7 sections

How Do You Address the Enemy in Your Own Head?

To understand Rayya Elias's journey, one must first contend with the enemy she names with surgical clarity in her essay "Letter to My Stumbling Block"—which is to say, her own mind. Read aloud to a room of strangers at a Women of Letters event in New York, the piece opens with a confrontation: "Dear head, you used to be the worst neighbourhood for me to hang out in, especially when I was alone. Being there with you was scarier than walking down Avenue D in the 1980s by myself."

That comparison—that her own mind was more dangerous than the literal streets of a war zone for drugs and violence—sets the emotional register for everything that follows. She describes a specific form of psychological torture: a voice that convinced her she didn't belong anywhere, that everyone else had earned their seat except her. It's a familiar refrain for people who have survived severe trauma and addiction, but Rayya names it with precision usually reserved for writing about physical illness. The stumbling block isn't addiction itself. It's the story the mind tells about the addict: that you are fundamentally, irredeemably bad.

What's striking about her essay is that she doesn't blame circumstance or bad luck or a disease she can't control. She holds the internal narrative responsible. She had "given up on myself and given in to a lifestyle that I would wish on no one," she writes, and the voice in her head—the stumbling block—was there the whole time, ratifying every terrible choice, deepening every wound. The essay catalogs specific places where this voice made her feel she belonged: "Some of the places I felt most comfortable in were gaols, psych wards, rehabs, detoxes, or being homeless on a park bench. Those are places that I knew I'd earned the right to be in."

What Happens When Homelessness Feels Safer Than Home?

The 1980s Lower East Side was not neutral territory for Rayya. It was a place where she had "found comfort in a twisted sort of safety in the hard-core drug scene of New York City." She was living on a bench in Tompkins Square Park, surrounded by hustlers, drug addicts, and criminals. She had alienated herself from family and friends—people who loved her and wanted to help. Her sister, a woman who "had married a doctor, had three kids, and lived in the beautiful suburb of Bloomfield Hills, Michigan," made the journey to New York specifically to retrieve her from the park.

The sister offered her a path out: a stay at the San Moritz Hotel to clean up and discuss her situation. But even facing this lifeline, Rayya's addiction maintained its grip. She agreed to go on one condition: that her sister give her money to buy enough drugs beforehand to make the trip tolerable. The sister agreed, understanding it was the only way to get her there. This agreement—this capitulation to the disease—reveals the depth of the crisis more clearly than any description of track marks or overdose statistics.

When Rayya arrived at the hotel, she hadn't washed in weeks. She was wearing filthy clothes with deep track marks visible on her hands and arms. "I had scabs stuck to the fibre of my shirt sleeves. I hadn't eaten in days because all the money I hustled on the street was used by heroin and cocaine." Her sister ran a bath for her, an act of care in the face of horror. When Rayya removed her shirt, "the fabric peeled off my skin and blood ran down my arms. She cried."

The moment is devastating precisely because it shows what love cannot do alone. The sister's tears, her willingness to help, her provision of clean clothes and food—none of it could touch the disease that had colonized both Rayya's mind and body. Rayya still needed another fix. She still couldn't imagine sitting in that hotel room without being numb. The stumbling block had won the round.

What Changes After Seventeen Years of Recovery?

Rayya has now been clean for seventeen years. She mentions this milestone with a matter-of-factness that suggests she's moved past counting years as victory and moved into living as evidence. But she's clear about what seventeen years means: it doesn't mean her life automatically got better. It means she chose to do the work.

In recovery literature and in addiction counseling, abstinence is often presented as the goal—the endpoint where wellness begins. But Rayya seems to suggest that abstinence is only the necessary beginning, not the destination. The real work is what she calls the alchemy: the transformation of the shattered pieces into something purposeful and whole. She's not merely a person who doesn't use drugs anymore. She's become a person who creates, who belongs in rooms with famous authors, who has something to offer the world. She's someone who can stand on stages and make people feel less alone by telling the truth about what happened to her.

Why Is Radical Honesty an Act of Recovery?

What Rayya credits most explicitly is a commitment to truth. Early in the conversation, Elizabeth Gilbert notes that Rayya has become a teacher to her precisely because of her willingness to tell hard truths without softening or performing. Rayya confirms this: "the truth is really a kind thing, it's an honourable thing." She describes her practice in concrete terms: "let's just go right to it rather than delaying something and just tell the truth. And then whatever happens on the other side of the street"—whatever the consequences—so be it.

This is not easy. For someone who spent years convinced that she was a reject, that she didn't belong anywhere, that everyone else had earned their seat except her, truth-telling is an act of rebellion. It means risking rejection. It means saying aloud the things that shame has kept hidden. It means acknowledging the parts of yourself you've been taught are unforgivable. But Rayya has made this practice central to her recovery and, by extension, to her life as a writer and teacher.

How Can a Creative Person Reclaim Their Identity After Trauma?

One of the most poignant moments in the conversation comes when Rayya discusses her relationship with her own creativity. She describes how, for years, she "used to beat myself up for being a creative person," associating the artistic impulse with depression and drugs, as if the creativity itself was the problem. But something shifted in her understanding. She came to see that the creativity wasn't the problem—the way she was treating herself because of the creativity was.

She talks about humming, about having lyrics in her head, about music and songwriting. At one point, reflecting on her life now, she speaks about having "dreams again"—a phrase that captures how completely those dreams had died during the active addiction years. But dreams haven't just returned passively. She's had to actively reclaim them, had to argue with the voice in her head that said creative people suffer and suffer, therefore don't deserve to create.

This reclamation is central to her recovery in a way that might not be emphasized in traditional addiction treatment. The recovery isn't just about stopping destructive behavior. It's about learning to honor the parts of yourself that want to build and make and express. When she talks about music, about lyrics, about creative work, she's talking about the vehicle through which she's rebuilt her sense of purpose.

What Does a Real Friendship Look Like Across the Divide?

Elizabeth Gilbert met Rayya fifteen years before the 2015 event, and they met through something that seems almost comically random: Elizabeth needed a haircut and her friends staged an intervention. Not for addiction or recovery—for hair. They sent her to Rayya, who was living in an East Village walk-up apartment with two pit bulls and, as Elizabeth remembers it, "her super hot wife, like newly married to like this gorgeous little pixy blonde with her tattoos and her guitars and her motorcycles."

Elizabeth's immediate reaction speaks to what Rayya does to people when they truly see her: "well you are now the coolest person I've ever met in my entire life." And they became best friends. The friendship is significant not because Rayya needed a famous author to validate her recovery. It's significant because it shows what happens when someone who has internalized a narrative of worthlessness meets someone who simply sees them differently—sees them as cool, as capable, as someone worth knowing deeply and staying in relationship with.

Fifteen years of friendship between these two women, culminating in Rayya being invited to speak on one of the world's most prestigious stages, is the lived evidence that recovery is possible, that transformation is real, and that you can go from being convinced you don't belong anywhere to being the kind of person who belongs exactly where you are.

Where to go from here

Rayya Elias's story, shared on the stage of the Sydney Opera House, is not an instruction manual for recovery. It's a testimony to the possibility of asking different questions than the ones your trauma and addiction have been shouting. Instead of "Why can't I stop using?" it becomes "Who am I underneath the shame and the noise?" Instead of "I don't belong anywhere," it becomes "What truth am I ready to tell about what I've lived through?" Instead of "I'm broken beyond repair," it becomes "What can I make from these pieces that might help someone else?"

Her memoir Harley Loco remains the complete record of her story for those ready to go deeper. But perhaps more importantly, her presence in the world—a woman in recovery, seventeen years clean, standing on one of the world's most prestigious stages, reading her own words, being celebrated and loved—is a living argument that the alchemy is possible. What doesn't kill you might not make you stronger automatically. But if you're willing to do the work, to tell the truth even when it's terrifying, to accept that you belong even when your mind tells you otherwise, you might make something beautiful from the wreckage. And that beauty might just be the thing that saves someone else.

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Transcript

[0:01] [ Music ]

[0:04] [ Applause ]

[0:08] >> Hello.

[0:09] >> Hello.

[0:09] >> Hi, everybody.

[0:10] >> You're all here bright and early.

[0:13] Thank you so much all of you for being here.

[0:15] It is my enormous pleasure and delight to be able

[0:19] to be the person who can introduce you today to somebody

[0:22] who may not know but should,

[0:24] and who you will love as much as I do.

[0:27] Well, that's not possible.

[0:28] You can't love her as much as I do.

[0:29] She's my very best friend in the entire world, Rayya Elias,

[0:32] the author of Harley Loco.

[0:35] [ Applause ]

[0:39] And I can -- who is struggling with her lanyard.

[0:41] >> I think they --

[0:42] >> Do you want some help, honey?

[0:43] >> They definitely want me to know --

[0:45] >> They want to claim you.

[0:47] >> Yes.

[0:47] >> They stapled it to her.

[0:48] She's going to have to wear that all day.

[0:51] Rayya is the author of a memoir called Harley Loco,

[0:54] a memoir of -- give us the subtitle.

[0:56] >> Of Hard Living, Hair, and Post Punk from the Middle East

[0:59] to the Lower East Side.

[1:01] >> It's a sprawling story.

[1:04] And we met 15 years ago because of an intervention.

[1:10] Now Rayya is a recovered drug addict and a lot

[1:12] of her work is about recovery.

[1:14] The intervention at which we met; however,

[1:16] was not a drug intervention.

[1:17] It was a hair intervention for me that my friends --

[1:20] that my friends had where they were like, we love you,

[1:23] we are about you, we can't look at this anymore [laughter].

[1:27] Something has to be done.

[1:28] And they sent me to Rayya, who at the time was living

[1:31] in East Village in a walk-up apartment with her two Pitbulls

[1:34] and her super hot wife, like newly married

[1:37] to like this gorgeous little pixy blonde with her tattoos

[1:41] and her guitars and her motorcycles.

[1:43] And I was like, well you are now the coolest person I've ever met

[1:46] in my entire life.

[1:47] And we became friends.

[1:48] And actually just as a disclosure, we were meant today

[1:51] in order to honour that first meeting.

[1:52] We thought it would be really cool piece of guerrilla theatre

[1:55] if Rayya gave me a haircut on stage.

[1:57] We thought of this like six months ago and we pitched it

[1:59] to the Sydney Opera House and to the All Women Festival

[2:01] and they were nice enough to let us do it until last week

[2:04] when Rayya and I realised

[2:05] that was the stupidest idea we had ever had

[2:08] in our entire lives.

[2:09] And that the mechanics of it were just ridiculous

[2:12] and that it would involve 15 minutes

[2:14] of a blow dryer going on stage.

[2:16] >> So what do you think about that, Liz [assumed spelling]?

[2:18] >> Yeah, what do you think

[2:19] about like transformation and create -- what?

[2:22] Like it would just be --

[2:22] so she did my hair before so you can look at it now.

[2:25] It's nice.

[2:26] >> There's it, done.

[2:27] >> It's done [applause].

[2:31] >> And I -- you're all going to buy Rayya's book after this.

[2:34] So I told her not to read from it today.

[2:36] What I asked her to do instead as an introduction a bit

[2:39] to her life, which has been really an extraordinary life.

[2:42] This is somebody who has lived and died

[2:44] in several different chapters and several different versions

[2:48] in really fascinating ways.

[2:50] And, you know, there's an old --

[2:51] there's the adage that what doesn't kill you makes you

[2:53] stronger, and my experience is that that is not always the case

[2:55] with people sometimes.

[2:56] What doesn't kill them just fucks them up so much

[3:00] that they're -- sorry, warning, adult language will be used

[3:04] in this session [laughter], lots of it.

[3:06] You're Australians, I have a feeling you can cope with it.

[3:11] Like oftentimes you see people whose --

[3:14] while their lives haven't killed them,

[3:16] they haven't necessarily made them stronger.

[3:18] And this something we're going to be talking about today,

[3:20] is the alchemy of how you do that, how you take --

[3:22] how you make a piece from the pieces basically.

[3:25] And Rayya does that and has done that better

[3:27] than anybody I have ever known.

[3:29] She's the greatest teacher of my life, and my dearest friend,

[3:32] and in order to give you just a sense of her voice and her life,

[3:37] I asked her to read an essay that she wrote this year

[3:40] that she delivered in New York City at Joe's Pub.

[3:44] Do you guys know Marieke Hardy, who is on ABC Book Club.

[3:48] So Marieke does this thing called Women of Letters

[3:50] where she invites people to -- she does these nights,

[3:53] these sort of theatrical nights where people

[3:55] from different backgrounds come

[3:56] and they write a letter to something.

[3:58] And the assignment was to write a letter

[4:01] to your stumbling block.

[4:02] And here's what Rayya wrote, and I have a feeling

[4:06] that although none of us probably have lived life --

[4:09] although I don't know, some you may have exactly like hers,

[4:12] we can all identify with the spirit of this,

[4:14] and you will know her better when she's done.

[4:17] So bring it.

[4:19] >> So letter to my stumbling block.

[4:22] Dear head, you used to be the worst neighbourhood for me

[4:28] to hang out in, especially when I was alone.

[4:31] Being there with you was scarier than walking down Avenue D

[4:35] in the 1980s by myself.

[4:37] It was scarier than being stalked by a serial killer

[4:40] or cornered by a rapist.

[4:43] Being in you, on my own head, meant that I would do anything

[4:47] to convince myself that I was a fucking reject,

[4:50] not worth the skin that I existed in.

[4:53] Let me first start by saying that I never feel

[4:57] like I belong, no matter where I am.

[5:00] I'm always plagued by the notion that everyone

[5:02] in the room has earned their seat except for me.

[5:06] They're smarter, more educated, well-read, better musicians,

[5:11] actors, directors, writers, etcetera, everybody.

[5:16] Some of the places I felt most comfortable in were gaols,

[5:20] psych wards, rehabs, detoxes, or being homeless on a park bench.

[5:27] Those are places that I knew I'd earned the right to be in.

[5:31] And even then there was always someone more fucked up, tougher,

[5:36] or even more homeless.

[5:39] I'm going to start by reminding you, head, with a story.

[5:44] When I was living on a bench

[5:45] on Tompkin [assumed spelling] Square Park

[5:46] in the 1980's I was lost.

[5:49] I had found comfort in a twisted sort of safety

[5:51] in the hard-core drug scene of New York City,

[5:54] and I alienated myself from my good friends and family.

[5:58] I had basically given up on myself and given

[6:01] in to a lifestyle that I would wish on no one.

[6:04] And you, head, helped convince me that these things were true.

[6:09] My sister wanted to reach in and pluck me from this world

[6:12] that was so foreign to her.

[6:14] She was sophisticated, a woman who had married a doctor,

[6:17] had three kids, and lived in the beautiful suburb

[6:21] of Bloomfield Hills, Michigan.

[6:23] When she came to New York and found me in that park,

[6:27] the dreaded tent city, with all the hustlers, drug addicts,

[6:31] and criminals, she offered to take me to the San Moritz Hotel

[6:34] to help clean me up and discuss my state of living.

[6:39] I agreed to go with her, but on one condition,

[6:43] that she give me money to buy enough drugs beforehand.

[6:47] She agreed, knowing it was the only way to get me there.

[6:49] I hadn't washed in weeks, was wearing filthy clothes,

[6:53] and had deep track marks on my hands and arms.

[6:56] I had scabs stuck to the fibre of my shirt sleeves.

[7:00] I hadn't eaten in days because all the money I hustled

[7:03] on the street was used by heroin and cocaine.

[7:07] She gave me the cash and I ran to the neighbourhood bodega,

[7:10] copped the drugs, and met her at Lushco's [assumed spelling],

[7:13] a little, tiny diner on the corner of Avenue A for a coffee

[7:17] so I could use their filthy bathroom and do a shot

[7:20] of speedball before getting into the cab to go --

[7:23] getting into the cab to go uptown.

[7:26] There was no way I was walking into that pristine hotel

[7:30] without numbing you out, head,

[7:34] because I knew what I looked like, how embarrassed

[7:36] and ashamed that she would be, but she would do it anyway.

[7:40] She would walk in with me.

[7:42] For me she would do it.

[7:45] I needed a fix because you had told me to be proud,

[7:48] cop an attitude, hold you high,

[7:52] and give everyone else a what the fuck are you looking

[7:54] at sneer, and I believed you.

[7:56] Do you know how fucked up that is?

[8:00] As I waited in the room angrily my beautiful sister ran a bath

[8:03] for me.

[8:03] And when I took my shirt off the fabric peeled off my skin

[8:08] and blood ran down my arms.

[8:10] She cried.

[8:11] I sunk into the bath wishing it would melt away all the pain

[8:14] and suffering, but nothing

[8:16] at that point could do that but another fix.

[8:19] So she stood by with the door half closed

[8:22] as I did another shot.

[8:23] Then quietly she gave me beautiful clothes to wear,

[8:28] her clothes, and fed me room service,

[8:30] steak and oysters, my favourites.

[8:33] We talked about my life and she said

[8:35] and did everything a person could do to offer help.

[8:38] Finally, she fell sleep and, after sitting in the dark

[8:41] for a while, I changed back into my old skanky clothes,

[8:45] folded her things, and kept -- and crept out of the room.

[8:50] You told me that I was too fucked up

[8:52] and didn't deserve what she was offering,

[8:54] that I would feel way more comfortable

[8:56] in that park bench downtown, with nothing, because after all,

[9:01] as you said before, I'd worked really hard to get there.

[9:06] When I treated myself badly you were quiet, and when I --

[9:09] and when you were loud

[9:10] and unbearable I treated myself even worse.

[9:13] I would've done anything to power

[9:15] down that boge voice of mine, yours.

[9:19] I'm remembering -- I'm reminding you of the story, head,

[9:22] because I've come a long way since that park bench.

[9:25] I've managed to quiet you down by inviting people into you

[9:28] and divulging all of your secrets and exposing them.

[9:32] I stopped using hard-core drugs to shut you up,

[9:35] and yet you still whispered.

[9:37] I even tried those pesky antidepressants

[9:39] for a while to keep you muffled.

[9:41] But after quite some time I realised

[9:43] that you weren't going anywhere.

[9:45] You're mine and I own you.

[9:47] Yes, I said it.

[9:48] I own you, not the other way around.

[9:51] Not like a piece of jewellery or a car I can sell,

[9:55] or an old piece of musical equipment I can trade,

[9:58] not even like a family member I can stay away

[10:00] from for long periods of time.

[10:01] You're like the weight that I carried around all those years

[10:05] and hated until it made me so miserable that I made a decision

[10:09] to have a healthy relationship with it.

[10:12] So during the last 17 years, while working

[10:16] on all these fucked up relationships with myself,

[10:19] I wrote and directed a couple of films

[10:21] and received wonderful accolades.

[10:24] I also made some amazing music with great producers.

[10:27] I wrote a memoir called Harley Loco

[10:30] and continuously write essays for different publications.

[10:33] I sell real estate in New York City and have a wonderful,

[10:36] healthy, and loving relationship with a gorgeous Swedish woman

[10:40] who is a pilot, a captain Swiss --

[10:43] a captain on Swiss Air just to be clear.

[10:46] Superhot, right?

[10:49] And we travelled the world together.

[10:50] I have friends and family that love me and would do just

[10:53] about anything for me, and I back for them.

[10:57] So I would say my life has turned

[10:58] out really, really bomb, right?

[11:02] So I ask you, head, why is it when I'm asked to do an event

[11:05] like this one, at first I'm really excited and flattered,

[11:09] then the fear sets in, and your dark voice starts to creep

[11:13] in like it did years ago beating me up with the questions,

[11:17] do I deserve to be here?

[11:19] Am I at a level that I can hold my own on a stage

[11:21] with people that I admire?

[11:24] I don't know -- I don't know about you, and I don't know

[11:28] if anybody else feels this way,

[11:30] but the shit happens to me all the time.

[11:34] I'm going to remind you of another story,

[11:36] and this just happened a couple weeks ago.

[11:38] I was invited to a small dinner party for a dear friend of mine,

[11:41] who happens to be the book review guy

[11:44] for the New York Times.

[11:45] His wife also a literary genius.

[11:48] There were 11 people at the table, all academics, Yale this

[11:52] and fucking Princeton that [laughter],

[11:54] Boston Globe this, and film review that.

[11:57] I think you remember the crowd, right, head?

[12:01] While at dinner you reared your ugly face and started chattering

[12:05] to me while they were eating foie gras and making references

[12:08] to literary things that I didn't understand.

[12:11] You told me that I was the stupidest one at the table.

[12:14] You told me not to speak because I had nothing to add

[12:17] to the conversation and, if I did ask for explanations,

[12:21] they would know how stupid I was.

[12:23] So I shut my mouth.

[12:25] My friend even asked if I was okay and, of course,

[12:28] and I smiled and said, yeah, the foie gras was incredible.

[12:33] She didn't seem convinced because I was so quiet,

[12:36] but then when that one really smart guy

[12:38] from Yale started talking

[12:39] about identifying triggers before you do a reading,

[12:43] I understood that.

[12:44] The rest of the table didn't know what he was talking about.

[12:47] I saw my chance and jumped in with my trigger story.

[12:50] I told him that when I did my first reading at pianos

[12:54] and read the first and very, very harrowing pages of my book,

[12:58] the room was so quiet and then a great applause happened.

[13:02] This chick came up to me after and said

[13:04] that I should've announced a trigger warning before reading

[13:07] my piece because someone

[13:08] in the audience could've been sexually assaulted or abused,

[13:11] and this was now a new etiquette.

[13:14] Instantly I replied, honey --

[13:16] actually I said bitch [laughter],

[13:18] I'm the one that went through that incident, not you.

[13:23] If you don't want to be triggered then don't come

[13:26] to a bar on the lower east side of New York City to listen

[13:29] to authors' cutting edge stories talk about their lives.

[13:33] She baulked a bit, but then she got the message

[13:36] that she wasn't going make me feel bad

[13:37] about what I just shared about myself.

[13:40] The smart Yale dude jumped up and he gave me a huge high-five

[13:44] and the conversation opened up about many things

[13:47] which I was very comfortable talking about, labels, feminism,

[13:52] art, sexuality, race, creativity, all the above.

[13:57] The rest of the evening was a wonderful experience

[13:59] because I showed you, head, that when I'm invited somewhere,

[14:03] then I probably belong there.

[14:06] People don't invite me for the things that I lack,

[14:09] they invite me for the things that I bring.

[14:12] Maybe this is the way we all balance each other out.

[14:16] So, dearest head, thank you for hanging in there with me,

[14:19] sometimes taking a beating from me, and vice versa,

[14:23] and becoming a little more tolerant

[14:25] and rational these days.

[14:26] I always expect a challenge from you,

[14:28] and now I'm certainly up for it.

[14:31] Remember, dude, I fucking own you.

[14:34] Love Rayya.

[14:36] [ Applause ]

[14:41] Thank you.

[14:42] [ Applause ]

[14:51] >> Rayya, that's Rayya.

[14:54] I want to start by talking about shame, because it's a subject

[14:59] that we talked about a lot and that you know a lot about,

[15:02] and this is about as well.

[15:04] And I'm curious, especially

[15:06] in an audience that's predominately women,

[15:07] and thank you to the men who came as well, you're very loved.

[15:09] We appreciate you being here, too.

[15:11] And you're no strangers to shame I know.

[15:15] And I want to -- I just want to begin with that word and ask you

[15:20] to sort of talk about what that has meant to you in the past,

[15:25] where you think it came from in your life, and how --

[15:29] like how you've worked with it at this point?

[15:35] >> Okay, you've never asked me that one before.

[15:36] >> No, I thought I'd just --

[15:38] >> You kind of suck, dude [laughter].

[15:41] Well, I mean, shame is inherent in my culture.

[15:45] Shame is inherent -- you know, I was born in Syria.

[15:48] And I think that it's so -- it's so subtle.

[15:55] Shame is so subtle.

[15:56] You know guilt -- we all know guilt, but shame is just worked

[16:01] into the fibre of who I am, you know.

[16:04] And it is the one thing that, you know, I never knew

[16:07] that I needed to shake but, you know,

[16:09] it comes from a look when you're two.

[16:13] It comes from a word when you're six.

[16:16] It comes from your sister being gorgeous and thin

[16:20] and you being sort of the fat little tomboy.

[16:23] And the way when you're walking through Sears to look for jeans,

[16:28] it comes from the lady --

[16:30] the lady who is helping you who says you need to go

[16:35] to the boys' husky section because you can't fit

[16:39] into a little girl's size jean.

[16:43] It comes from, you know, and I'm just taking you through.

[16:47] It comes from feeling different, feeling like, oh my God I'm not,

[16:53] you know, I'm never going to be attracted

[16:55] to a doctor, a man, this.

[16:58] I want to -- I want to be the man.

[17:01] I want to be, you know, I want to be self-sufficient.

[17:04] I want to take care of people.

[17:06] I -- so in my family and in my culture, and in every culture,

[17:12] and I'm not -- I'm not pointing it out as a Syrian,

[17:15] in every culture I think it's so hard to not have shame.

[17:20] >> Uh-huh.

[17:20] >> You know, because we identify.

[17:22] I mean, it's so hard to identify with the positive things

[17:25] until you work through all that stuff and get to a place

[17:29] where you're like fuck this, I'm not going

[17:32] to let you take me down, because that's the one thing

[17:35] that will take me down.

[17:37] >> All of us.

[17:38] And we've been -- you and I have been talking about this a lot

[17:40] over last couple weeks, because I've got really excited

[17:42] about the work of this neurobiologist I've been telling

[17:45] you about, this guy, Mario Martinez [assumed spelling],

[17:46] who has this take on shame that I never heard before

[17:49] that I felt was like so clarifying

[17:52] about how it's the greatest tool that your family

[17:56] or your culture has to keep you in line.

[17:58] Right? Because a family and a culture are very conservative.

[18:03] A church is conservative.

[18:04] A family is conservative.

[18:05] Whatever tribe you belong to is by nature --

[18:08] >> Even drug addicts are conservative.

[18:10] >> You've been shamed by, you know, like and the way they --

[18:12] and sometimes the shame is very explicit,

[18:14] like if you don't tow the line you are excommunicated,

[18:17] you're disowned from this family.

[18:19] Like sometimes it's really violent.

[18:21] Some -- we'll kill you.

[18:22] You know, like honour killings and stuff.

[18:24] Like, and then sometimes it's subtle where it's

[18:27] like we won't kill you

[18:28] but here's the language we're going to use.

[18:30] Oh, now that you're a fancy person

[18:32] who got an education you think you're better than us.

[18:35] Now that your, you know, blah, blah, blah you think

[18:37] that you're, you know --

[18:38] and they sort of work you to try to bring you back in.

[18:42] >> Into the fold.

[18:43] >> And the way that we try to come back into the fold is

[18:47] through failure, right?

[18:48] >> Uh-huh.

[18:48] >> Because if you dare to leave and do well,

[18:51] that's the biggest betrayal

[18:53] that you could possibly have of your tribe, right?

[18:55] Your tribe is like, you have

[18:56] to follow these rules or you won't do well.

[18:58] And then if you don't follow those rules

[18:59] and go do well you've really fucked them.

[19:02] You know, and then --

[19:03] >> Because challenge is everything.

[19:04] >> They try to, you know, and so I'm -- was thinking about,

[19:07] tell that story about when,

[19:09] because I think this is a very important thing to remember

[19:11] if you are daring to move outside of what you were taught,

[19:14] that they, your family, your tribe, your culture your church,

[19:17] whoever it is who builds the sort of rules around you,

[19:20] they'll always take you back in failure,

[19:23] but they won't take you back in success, right?

[19:25] So if you come back in success they're going to sort of work

[19:29] on you, but if you come back as a failure, weak and broken,

[19:31] they're like come back.

[19:34] We have all the love for you because --

[19:37] and you tell that story about when you got clean

[19:39] and your brother was like --

[19:41] your brother who you've always had such a hard time with.

[19:43] >> Yeah.

[19:43] >> Was like finally there for you.

[19:45] >> Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, we had never really gotten along

[19:49] and then, you know, I spent years just out there adrift.

[19:53] And finally I went home, you know, defeated and just,

[19:59] you know, wanting to get help.

[20:01] And it was like come on back in.

[20:05] I went to rehab, a six month, everything.

[20:08] And I got on my feet and then when I wanted to move back

[20:12] to New York because I hadn't -- I hadn't slain --

[20:15] you know, slayed the beast yet.

[20:17] I had to go back to prove to myself

[20:20] that I could no matter what, drugs, not, whatever,

[20:24] still stand on my own, and when I wanted to leave he --

[20:29] literally he threatened to disown me.

[20:32] He used my mother's cancer at the time to sort of shame me,

[20:38] you know, that I was leaving.

[20:41] And I just remember thinking, oh my God,

[20:44] like how could this be possible.

[20:46] I'm healthy.

[20:48] Like why can't you be happy that I'm healthy and want to sort

[20:52] of move on and still chase my dreams and --

[20:56] now that I have dreams again.

[20:58] But it wasn't that way.

[20:59] It was like, oh you're back, and you're here, and we want to hold

[21:02] on to you, and that's it.

[21:05] >> The -- one of the things that this guy that you

[21:06] and I have been talking about a lot lately says that the only --

[21:10] there's like an energy field that you have

[21:12] to use to combat shame.

[21:14] And the one that he suggests his honour, because it's the --

[21:17] it's the opposite really.

[21:19] And that when you have been shamed, you know,

[21:22] whether through your own behaviour

[21:23] or through somebody betraying you, or abandoning you,

[21:26] or hurting you, or kicking you out, when you're carrying

[21:29] around shame you have to build up a sense of your own honour,

[21:32] and that has to be different

[21:34] from perhaps the honour code that you came from.

[21:37] And you have to find your own honour in the world,

[21:39] and you have to build a list of evidence for yourself

[21:41] of the times where you have been honourable and the ways

[21:43] that you are honourable.

[21:44] You have to sort of convince your mind that, no, I'm a person

[21:47] of honour and dignity.

[21:49] And I want to know where your honour comes from,

[21:52] like where your dignity comes from.

[21:53] What do you know in your marrow about yourself

[21:57] that makes you still be here with us?

[21:59] >> Yeah.

[22:00] >> And makes you still be able to tackle the head that you

[22:02] by your own admission, and we all know from our own, look,

[22:05] we all live in a head that's a terrible neighbourhood to walk

[22:07] around alone in at night.

[22:09] What is the honour code that you have that keeps you --

[22:11] >> I mean my code -- made my code is just --

[22:15] look, when I got clean 17 years ago I knew

[22:19] that I had hurt so many people.

[22:22] I was 37 years old and for 20 years I was --

[22:28] I just made havoc and destruction everywhere.

[22:33] And so my code was to be -- was truth.

[22:38] It was no matter what, to live or die by the sword of truth.

[22:44] And I have found that some people can't handle it,

[22:48] some people -- you know, and when I first came

[22:51] around to it I was like, truth, you know,

[22:54] fucking truth, man [laughter].

[22:57] You know, and I think that that's, you know,

[23:00] that's the thing that happens when you're sort of trying

[23:03] to attack something that you really know nothing about,

[23:08] right, is that you go to the opposite side of the pendulum

[23:11] and you become -- it becomes your dogma, right.

[23:14] And then what happens is that you start swinging

[23:18] and you start thinking, oh my God, this thing,

[23:21] truth is really a kind thing, it's an honourable thing.

[23:26] It's the thing that I want most in my life.

[23:30] It's the thing that I want people

[23:33] to portray to me, you know.

[23:36] I want to be forgiven.

[23:37] I want to forgive everyone.

[23:39] I -- you know, I want to forgive myself,

[23:43] which is I think the most important thing.

[23:45] So it first started with that, like, Rayya,

[23:48] you've been just an asshole, you've been so fucked up.

[23:52] Can you forgive yourself for a through Z?

[23:55] And it was like, yes, I think.

[23:58] A couple things took a while, you know, but --

[24:03] and they still -- you know, and they recur, and they recur

[24:06] on a lower level, at first really extreme

[24:09] and you think I can't deal with this.

[24:11] I'll never be able to live with this, but every time they come

[24:14] around they're like on a lighter level.

[24:17] And now, you know, I just -- I live and die by truth,

[24:23] but kindness with truth, not a truth that is going

[24:27] to knock people out, not a truth where I'm going to assault you

[24:32] by telling you the truth about yourself.

[24:34] >> Never.

[24:35] >> Because I can't do that,

[24:36] only you can tell you the truth about yourself.

[24:39] I can tell you the truth about myself, you know,

[24:43] and it's pretty raunchy some of it, you know.

[24:47] And yet, you know, when I expose myself like I was saying,

[24:51] and that when I expose myself I ripped myself open.

[24:56] There's nothing in there but love, right.

[24:58] There's nothing left because all the crap is out.

[25:02] And who are we really?

[25:04] We're this like point of light and love,

[25:06] and if I can show you that, if I can show you all my shit

[25:10] and like open it up and you can see that I work really hard

[25:15] to take step by step by step by step to do the next right thing,

[25:19] you know, and if it feels wrong

[25:20] in my gut then it's fucking wrong, then take a turn, dude.

[25:25] Don't do it.

[25:25] If it feels wrong take a turn.

[25:28] >> You have taught me more about truth than anyone,

[25:31] because I remember I took an ethics class in college,

[25:35] and I remember the professor who had this great Brooklyn accent,

[25:37] he was this ex-Marine, he was genius, and he talked

[25:40] like a cab driver in a 1940's movie, like he had the greatest,

[25:44] and he -- I remember him saying, we become liars

[25:48] because he goes your family and society they demand the truth,

[25:53] but they can't deal with it.

[25:56] You know, and it's totally true.

[25:58] Like it's such a great thing.

[25:59] Like you're told constantly to be honest, but the fact is,

[26:03] most people actually would really prefer

[26:04] that you weren't, you know.

[26:06] Because it's -- they would really prefer

[26:08] that jut tamp that, whatever that thing is.

[26:10] And so, especially if you're a sensitive empath,

[26:13] you spend like -- if you're me, you spend your life

[26:16] when people ask you what you think about something,

[26:18] your first thing is to lean in and look very closely

[26:20] at their face and try to figure

[26:22] out what is the answer they want you to say?

[26:24] Right? That's something I've spent my entire --

[26:27] I'm like what do you want?

[26:28] I used to work in a in a cafe and there was a bunch

[26:31] of Honduran guys who made the coffee,

[26:33] and I remember this one guy who spoke no English, and I would go

[26:36] up to pick up the order to bring to customers and I would say,

[26:39] Hilario [assumed spelling], is this decaf that I ordered?

[26:42] And he would look in my eyes for the answer.

[26:44] Do you want it to -- yes [laughter].

[26:49] No, no, like what do you want, yes.

[26:52] And that's what I spent my life doing.

[26:55] Like what do you -- what will be the thing I can say

[26:58] to make this moment right now as smooth as possible, right?

[27:03] Which leads to just an escalation and snowballing

[27:06] of terrible consequences, right?

[27:07] It makes that moment smooth.

[27:09] >> Yeah.

[27:09] >> And then it makes your life a living hell.

[27:11] >> Hell.

[27:12] >> You know, and then you eventually like --

[27:14] and the things that you've taught me,

[27:16] the specific thing I love is

[27:17] when you always say the truth will always eventually come out.

[27:22] So the quicker we can get to it the better.

[27:25] Like let's just go right to it rather than delaying something

[27:29] that will emerge, because what's your line?

[27:32] The truth --

[27:32] >> The truth has legs.

[27:33] It always stands.

[27:34] >> It always stands.

[27:35] Everything else will fall away, and in the end you will have

[27:37] to reckon with it anyway.

[27:38] >> Yeah.

[27:38] >> You know, so whenever I'm going

[27:40] through like an interpersonal difficulty, your --

[27:44] and I call you for advice,

[27:45] and I sometimes wonder why do I still pick up the phone?

[27:47] I know what she's going to say.

[27:49] She's going to say, tell the truth, right.

[27:52] Whatever the thing is, tell the truth.

[27:54] Say it as gently as you can, but send that e-mail to that person

[27:58] and just tell the truth.

[27:59] And I'm always like I can't, you know.

[28:02] >> And I hate it when she like rewinds it on me and she's like,

[28:05] baby, you know, you know you got to tell the truth

[28:07] because that's what you do.

[28:08] And I'm like, oh fuck, that's right,

[28:10] that's right, that's, yeah.

[28:11] >> And it -- and it -- and it seems to work.

[28:14] Or like -- and the other line that I love of yours is always

[28:17] that you -- you know, my husband and I,

[28:19] this has change our whole life this line.

[28:20] We were praising you for this last night.

[28:22] Keep your own side of the street clean.

[28:24] You know, so that means owning yourself, being accountable

[28:28] for your actions, apologising when you need to,

[28:31] and making sure that you're tidy on your side --

[28:33] that you've done your work.

[28:35] And then whatever happens on the other side of the street --

[28:37] >> Is none of your business.

[28:39] >> It's none of your business.

[28:40] You know, and so my husband and I do this all the time,

[28:43] is our side of the street clean on this?

[28:44] You know, if we're in a -- like did we do everything we can do?

[28:47] Then the rest of it -- let it go.

[28:49] You're not in charge of how people react to that.

[28:52] I want to ask you to talk about being a late bloomer creatively,

[28:58] which you both are and aren't.

[28:59] There's a level at which you've been creating your entire life.

[29:02] There's a level at which that I see you now in your 50's coming

[29:05] into this blossoming of creativity,

[29:09] that you're embracing in such a different way

[29:12] than you ever have.

[29:13] And I -- and I want to bring this up because I,

[29:14] as somebody who is a creativity proselytiser,

[29:20] I'm constantly trying to get people to make things

[29:23] and to release the things that are in them.

[29:24] I know that there's a level at which a lot of people,

[29:26] especially women, seem to feel

[29:27] like if they haven't done it yet it's too late.

[29:30] If they weren't trained up in it, it's too late.

[29:32] If they blah, blah, blah, blah it's too late.

[29:35] So could you just take that away from them --

[29:37] >> Yeah.

[29:38] >> The way you do?

[29:38] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[29:39] Are you dead?

[29:43] Create. No [laughter].

[29:44] If you're not fucking dead, you've got breath in you,

[29:49] then you can do stuff.

[29:51] I -- you know, I used to -- I used to really, really,

[29:55] really hate myself for being a creative person.

[29:58] I used to beat myself up for being a creative person,

[30:01] because I used to feel like it was --

[30:04] it was a nagging thing that just -- that haunted me.

[30:09] Like why do I have -- why can't I be the architect

[30:13] that my father wanted me to be?

[30:15] Why do I have to have this yearning, yearning,

[30:18] yearning to be a creative person,

[30:20] so -- but I'm not enough.

[30:22] You know, that was my head back in the day.

[30:27] I'm not enough, I'm never going to be enough, I'm fucked up,

[30:31] now get out there and create and do what --

[30:34] you know, be touch and create and, you know,

[30:38] and just be a soldier and that was the epitome of what was

[30:43] in my head all the time.

[30:46] And since I've been clean, it took a while

[30:49] because I never thought that I could create.

[30:52] I thought all of that stuff came from the angst that was my life,

[30:56] that was the depression, that was the drugs,

[30:58] that was the darkness, and I loved that.

[31:02] It just happened, darkness, it went dark [laughter].

[31:05] >> You're in the zone, man.

[31:06] >> I know.

[31:06] >> You're calling down the spirit.

[31:08] >> And so, you know, so when I -- when I started --

[31:12] when I wrote my -- you know, when I started thinking

[31:14] about doing music again, like I hadn't picked

[31:18] up an instrument in years.

[31:19] And I was, you know, just ashamed.

[31:22] I didn't think I could do it.

[31:23] So I would literally like skulk around writing lyrics and trying

[31:28] to play the piano and doing things

[31:30] and not allowing people to hear me.

[31:34] And I had this little four track and I wrote this song,

[31:37] and I thought it was shit, right.

[31:39] And I recorded it on a cassette thing and, you know,

[31:43] and then my friend, Barb Morrison, heard it.

[31:46] And she was a producer.

[31:47] She produced Debbie Harry and like Rufus Wainwright.

[31:49] And she heard it and she was like, dude, you got to come

[31:53] into the studio and record this.

[31:54] And I'm like, what?

[31:56] But what I've learnt, you know, and a lot of it --

[32:00] I'm going to just say has to do with Liz as well, because I was

[32:03] so ashamed of being a creative person.

[32:07] I felt like I was a closet creative person.

[32:10] You know, I had been a closet queer for so long I just --

[32:13] I had to be in the closet about something, right.

[32:16] So -- but she would say, I can't believe it, you do,

[32:21] you talk about doing these things and you do them.

[32:23] And I was like, yeah.

[32:24] But she just brought the light into -- like when I met Liz,

[32:28] I was like, oh my God, this person has all this light

[32:32] and I was sort of crawling my way out of the darkness

[32:34] and she talked about creativity in this positive way of like,

[32:39] oh my God, you're so blessed to be creative.

[32:42] You're so -- it's so inspiring to see somebody that talks

[32:46] about things and actually does them.

[32:48] And I was like, yeah, I can do that, you know.

[32:51] And it sort of helped me to get a backbone

[32:54] about my creative thing.

[32:55] And then it helped me to start appreciating it.

[32:59] So now, you know, my mantra is I am enough, now go out there

[33:04] and do it and it doesn't have to be -- like she always says,

[33:07] it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to get done.

[33:11] You know -- and, you know,

[33:14] I know I'm like a shitty everything.

[33:16] I'm a jack of all trades.

[33:18] I'm a master at none.

[33:19] And who care?

[33:20] Who is the master of anything, right?

[33:23] >> And would you want to hang out with that person?

[33:25] >> Definitely not, you know.

[33:26] >> Who is the master at anything?

[33:28] >> So I just, you know, the only thing I need

[33:31] to master is this, my heart.

[33:34] You know, that's the only thing I need to master,

[33:37] because this rules everything, you know.

[33:40] I hope eventually it will rule this,

[33:43] but at this point this does rule like everything that I do.

[33:47] And if I have enough, you know, love for my creativity,

[33:51] for a person, for whatever it is, then I want it.

[33:55] I want it in me and then I want it out of me.

[33:58] And if I can't -- you know, this is the last thing I'm going

[34:01] to say, like if I can't keep it in anymore,

[34:04] if it fucking drives me crazy like an earworm or, you know,

[34:08] if I have lyrics in my head or I hum or I hymn,

[34:11] I got to get it out, because it will drive me crazy.

[34:15] I know myself, and keeping it in is not a good thing.

[34:18] What do you say about the Border Collie?

[34:20] >> Oh, I always say that owning a creative mind,

[34:22] which is basically a human mind, is a little bit

[34:26] like having a Border Collie for a pet.

[34:28] You've got to give it something to do or it's going

[34:30] to find a job to do and you will not like the job it finds.

[34:34] >> You know.

[34:35] >> You know, so that's why we make things,

[34:37] so that we can keep this occupied.

[34:41] >> Yeah.

[34:41] >> Or else it's going to eat the couch.

[34:44] >> Yeah.

[34:44] >> You know.

[34:45] >> Yeah.

[34:46] >> And try -- and start hurting the mailman like, you know.

[34:49] And, you know, you and I are very much aligned in this idea

[34:52] that if you're not creating something,

[34:54] you're probably destroying something, usually yourself

[34:58] or the people around you.

[34:59] >> Or the people around you.

[35:00] >> You know, and that there's a way to be creative

[35:03] without destroying yourself or the people around you.

[35:05] And that is usually, I think, to let go of the outcome,

[35:08] which you did beautifully with Harley Loco.

[35:11] And, you know, she wrote this thing.

[35:13] You know, I was like write this book.

[35:15] She's like, how?

[35:15] I'm like sit down and you write it.

[35:18] It's the only way a book ever got written.

[35:21] >> Oh, she's so vanilla about telling that story [laughter].

[35:26] She basically dared me to write this book,

[35:28] and I was like I'm not a writer.

[35:30] Anyway, go ahead.

[35:31] >> And you did it, right.

[35:32] And you -- and I was like just tell the truth, just tell the --

[35:35] you know how to tell a story.

[35:36] Tell -- pretend you're talking to me.

[35:38] Tell me what happened.

[35:39] That's what a book is.

[35:39] That's what a story is.

[35:40] It's what any work of art is.

[35:42] It's the thing of like, oh,

[35:43] this is how I saw the thing that happened.

[35:45] Or this is how I dreamt -- just do that.

[35:47] And when you were done with it, and it was terrific and,

[35:52] you know, an agent loved it immediately,

[35:55] and a major publishing house loved it immediately,

[35:58] and it happened really fast.

[35:59] Of course, it didn't happen fast, it was 50 years

[36:02] in the brewing, and three years writing,

[36:05] and then it was overnight.

[36:06] You know, where suddenly they were like,

[36:08] oh my God, we love this.

[36:09] I remember your panic where you said,

[36:12] I never thought anybody would actually publish this.

[36:15] I have to go back and take a lot of stuff

[36:17] out of that book [laughter].

[36:20] So I was wondering if you could speak to that feeling

[36:23] and what happened and like what you ended up doing?

[36:25] >> Oh man.

[36:26] >> Because you wrote it without thinking about the outcome,

[36:29] which is how you should make art.

[36:32] >> I mean, I remember three years of just sitting there

[36:35] with my two Pitbulls in the church house that she, you know,

[36:39] made me -- made me go to, which I'm still there,

[36:44] and just thinking, okay, this is going

[36:46] to be my cathartic experience.

[36:48] This is -- I'm going to get it all out.

[36:50] I'm going to be as honest as possible.

[36:52] I'm going to, you know, and then when they read it, you know,

[36:56] I did -- it's funny because I scaled a little bit back

[36:58] on some lesbian sex I remember, and I was like,

[37:01] oh I don't know -- I don't know if I want

[37:03] to be pigeonholed as, you know, whatever.

[37:05] And my -- and I gave it to them and they were like,

[37:08] can we get a little more lesbian sex [laughter]?

[37:11] And a little more about the music scene?

[37:15] And I'm thinking, oh my God,

[37:17] I need to take a couple things out, you know,

[37:21] a couple of experiences out and they were like, oh no,

[37:25] we don't want anything out, and I just remember I was terrified.

[37:30] I was terrified.

[37:31] My family might, you know -- thank God, I mean,

[37:34] I loved my parents, thank God they were both gone,

[37:37] because like there was no way my father could have read the first

[37:42] 10 pages of that book.

[37:44] And like, he would have died, you know, on the spot.

[37:48] And so, you know, it's just -- and I had to let go of it.

[37:54] You know, I had to just bite the bullet and just let it go

[37:58] and just be like, okay, you have to be strong,

[38:01] you have to be brave, and you just have to let go

[38:05] of the outcome, because this is your truth.

[38:07] I mean, it's not a lie.

[38:09] You just -- you put it all out there not expecting everybody

[38:14] to read it but, you know what, it's a --

[38:18] you know, I did put it away and, you know,

[38:21] and I remember sitting -- having that conversation with you

[38:24] because I was like crying and not talking to anybody,

[38:28] you know, just -- and she was like, are you okay?

[38:31] Like this should be a really happy moment.

[38:34] And I was like I'm fucking terrified.

[38:36] You used the word, I was like I don't know.

[38:38] I don't know what's going on.

[38:40] And she goes, you're terrified.

[38:42] And I said, I'm fucking terrified [laughter].

[38:45] It's like, you know, and she just said, like look --

[38:48] >> It's just terror [laughter].

[38:50] >> It will pass.

[38:52] It's a feeling.

[38:53] >> You know.

[38:53] >> It will pass.

[38:54] >> It's just terror, and it's actually a really appropriate

[38:57] way to feel.

[38:58] And creativity always stirs up terror,

[39:02] because creativity asks you to enter

[39:04] into realms of uncertain outcome.

[39:07] And fear hates that more than anything.

[39:09] And the fear response

[39:11] in you will always be like, don't do it.

[39:14] And the creativity, that's always a thing

[39:17] that you just have to expect.

[39:18] And I was like, oh, oh baby, you're just terrified.

[39:21] >> Yeah.

[39:21] >> That just means you made something, you know.

[39:25] It's okay, we all are.

[39:26] >> She makes it sound so easy.

[39:28] >> It is.

[39:28] >> That's what I love, you know.

[39:29] >> I mean, and you do, too.

[39:30] I mean, this is the thing that, you know,

[39:32] a lovely friendship is based on, mutual need, and the mutual need

[39:37] that you and I continually have with each other is

[39:39] that we're brave in different ways.

[39:41] Nobody is -- nobody is uniformly 100% brave

[39:46] in every aspect of their life.

[39:47] If they are they're -- I don't know, they're either very,

[39:50] very, very [inaudible] --

[39:51] >> They're super fucked up [laughter].

[39:52] >> Or they haven't done any work at all in themselves.

[39:57] And, you know, there's been different chap --

[39:59] like sort of aspects of ourselves that we've worked

[40:01] on really well to the point that we kind

[40:03] of do have a kind of mastery.

[40:04] And I'm really -- I'm very brave about creativity

[40:07] and I'm very comfortable with it.

[40:09] And it's really easy for me to communicate that to you,

[40:12] and it's really easy for me to see what you can't see,

[40:14] which is that, oh, it's just terror, you're fine, you know.

[40:17] You've got to keep doing it.

[40:18] What's the -- why stop?

[40:19] And it's really easy for you when I'm sitting

[40:22] at my laptop shaking over an e-mail that I have

[40:25] to write someone that's so scary

[40:27] because I'm telling them an emotional truth, and Rayya is

[40:29] on the other line saying, push send, honey, just push send.

[40:33] And I'm like, but they will have a response.

[40:36] She's like, they're allowed to have a response, you know.

[40:39] And this is what we do for each other, and sort of you need

[40:42] to make sure that the people that you bring closest to you

[40:45] in your life are those people who help you to ascend

[40:49] to the highest possible potential of yourself.

[40:52] And I think it's just a wonderful state to be

[40:54] in in middle age where you attract that, you know,

[40:59] where you're not attracting people

[41:00] who are foul weather friends, who only are there for you

[41:04] when things are -- when things are bad, and you are suffering,

[41:08] and don't want to see you rise, you know.

[41:10] And I was wondering, too, if you could just speak for a moment

[41:13] about how you lost your fear of abundance,

[41:17] how you lost your fear of happiness,

[41:20] how you lost your fear of contentment, and peace

[41:23] and learnt to trust in those things

[41:25] and believe in those things.

[41:27] >> Well I mean the fear

[41:28] of abundance was absolutely the hardest and easiest thing

[41:33] that I've ever done, and that's because I lost everything many,

[41:37] many, many, many, many, many times over.

[41:41] And so I -- you know, I know myself and I know

[41:47] that if I can stand and I have a pair scissors in my hand, right,

[41:52] I can make money, whether it's on a park bench, in a trailer,

[41:56] fuck -- fucking parked in Albuquerque, or like anywhere,

[42:00] like I know I can get on my feet.

[42:02] So abundance just natural -- and having no fear of it,

[42:08] it just naturally comes to me.

[42:11] The abundance of which?

[42:13] >> I was just thinking about the thing that I see you not doing,

[42:18] which is something I see a lot of people doing.

[42:21] When things go well you don't get scared.

[42:23] And there's, you know, you and I have seen this in people

[42:27] where the minute things start to go well --

[42:31] >> That's so boring [laughter].

[42:33] >> They get terrified, and I wonder what it is that you have

[42:36] about that that you're willing to be like,

[42:38] cool, I'll take it, thanks.

[42:40] >> Well, I mean the thing is,

[42:41] is like when things go well that's amazing, right.

[42:46] But I mean tomorrow things may not go so well, right.

[42:49] And it's just -- it's a part of --

[42:51] it's the natural rhythm of life to have these ups and downs.

[42:54] And my favourite thing is like that middle --

[42:58] that middle ground, right, that like nice even wave

[43:01] that you can take a paddleboard on and just sit, right,

[43:04] and check it out all -- across all the horizons,

[43:08] and it's so amazing, because happiness is totally overrated

[43:12] because when you're just like happy then,

[43:16] you know, then you're like sad.

[43:18] It's kind of like -- it's the same thing.

[43:21] It's the same thing, you know.

[43:24] And that's what -- you know, and that's what kills me.

[43:26] And I've been dead and I've been alive.

[43:30] And it's just -- they're both overrated, you know [laughter].

[43:32] I'll take alive a little more but --

[43:37] you know, but I mean writing the balance is

[43:40] so incredible, you know.

[43:41] And that's sort of what I've learnt through life.

[43:44] It's like everything, like don't make a big deal out of anything.

[43:48] If it's -- you know, this right here, right now, is the pentacle

[43:53] of everything I've ever experienced in my life,

[43:57] has brought me to the fucking Sydney Opera House,

[44:00] me, you know.

[44:02] And we were walking up here and I said, Liz, this is --

[44:06] this is -- this is it, you know.

[44:08] This is like -- and this is the absolute best experience I

[44:14] could've ever asked for in my life for today [applause].

[44:19] >> Yeah.

[44:21] >> You know.

[44:21] I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

[44:25] You know, and it doesn't matter.

[44:27] Because if I end up on a park bench for whatever reason,

[44:31] I know I've got feet, I've got a half a brain, and I will endure

[44:37] and I will -- you know, I'm a really positive person.

[44:41] >> And not just on a park bench.

[44:43] We were -- I have to tell my favourite story about you.

[44:47] My favourite Australian story about you.

[44:49] Last year Rayya and I were here, were at [inaudible] and we went

[44:51] to this nature park where you could walk

[44:53] around with the lovely animals.

[44:55] And they're all these lovely wallabies

[44:58] and we had food for them and stuff.

[44:59] And it was like really a Disney experience, you know, like purr,

[45:03] little birds flying and [inaudible] on the ground,

[45:05] or whatever they're called.

[45:06] [ Inaudible ]

[45:07] And we're sort of like one with nature and it's

[45:11] like beautiful sunshine and she's got a sort of corona

[45:14] of joy and light around her and I'm watching her enjoying this

[45:17] and she's feeding all the wallabies and she's --

[45:20] this one big ass male wallaby dude comes up to her

[45:24] and he grabs her Prada purse.

[45:26] And she gives him a little bit but she's got all these other --

[45:29] and he goes like this, and I've never seen --

[45:32] because I didn't know Rayya back in the day

[45:34] when she lived on the streets.

[45:36] I've never seen -- I didn't know you in gaol at Rikers Island.

[45:40] I didn't know like when, you know, you were --

[45:43] kicked people's asses.

[45:45] So anyway, this dude, this wallaby.

[45:49] >> Big wallaby, big.

[45:50] >> He comes up and he reaches for the bag again, and she turns

[45:53] around and this face I've seen on you before, and she goes,

[45:55] fuck off motherfucker [laughter].

[46:00] And the wallaby is like, whoa,

[46:02] like literally puts his little hands

[46:06] up like this and he's like.

[46:07] >> He was like.

[46:14] >> We're cool, we're cool.

[46:17] >> And he took off.

[46:20] It was -- and then she said, oh my God,

[46:22] I've never seen that side of you.

[46:25] I was like, get the fuck out of here motherfucker.

[46:32] And he -- and he -- and she goes, oh my God, I've never seen

[46:37] that side of you and I was like, what side [laughter]?

[46:41] And she was like, oh my God, I've never seen

[46:45] that street side of you.

[46:47] And I was like --

[46:49] >> Between the enormous, beating, passionate heart

[46:52] that you carry, and that badass [inaudible],

[46:57] you will always be fine anywhere in the world.

[47:01] So well, we've got a minute and what I want

[47:08] to do is ask Rayya to sing for us.

[47:12] Rayya is many things, and one

[47:14] of the things she is is a fantastic musician,

[47:18] lots of record deals back in the '80s, just is fabulous.

[47:25] And she's going to sing a very special song.

[47:31] I was going to sing, too, but you know I only know the words

[47:36] to one song, the Game of Thrones.

[47:38] >> Oh, oh, oh, she's horrible.

[47:40] >> I've been tormenting everybody lately.

[47:42] >> So I -- because it's International Women's Day,

[47:45] and because Liz Gilbert wrote this amazing book called The

[47:50] Signature of All Things, I wrote a song about Alma Whitaker.

[47:55] And -- because she is heroin to all of us, pardon the pun,

[47:57] and I fell love with this character and you will, too,

[47:58] if you haven't read it.

[47:59] >> Before you go can I make a special request?

[48:00] >> What?

[48:00] >> Can you sanctify this space before you begin?

[48:01] I've only ever heard you do this once and I'm going to put you

[48:03] on the spot and ask you to do it again.

[48:04] Rayya was raised in Syria.

[48:04] English is her fourth language.

[48:05] Her first was a combination --

[48:06] well Arabic and then her grandmother's language

[48:07] of Aromaic.

[48:08] And --

[48:08] >> Oh my God.

[48:08] >> Once --

[48:08] >> What are you fucking doing [laughter]?

[48:09] >> Will you sing --

[48:09] >> I can't say no.

[48:09] >> To make it Holy, and because we're in the Opera House,

[48:11] a few lines of the Lord's Prayer in Aromaic as taught to you

[48:12] by your grandmother in Syria?

[48:13] >> I'm not religious, but this is such a beautiful hymn.

[48:14] I'll sing just one verse.

[48:21] [ Singing in Foreign Language ]

[48:51] That's it.

[48:53] [ Applause ]

[48:58] Wow, thanks, Liz.

[49:00] >> Thank you.

[49:00] >> It felt really good.

[49:01] >> Yeah, it felt good for us, too.

[49:03] >> Wow, okay.

[49:05] So this song is called Touch the Ground.

[49:07] And like I said, it's about Alma.

[49:15] [ Guitar Playing and Singing ]

[54:11] I love you, Liz, and Alma, thank you.

[54:14] >> And, Rayya, I love you [applause].

[54:15] >> Thank you so much.

[54:19] [ Applause ]

[54:23] >> Take a bow.

[54:24] Give me that.

[54:25] I won't drop it.

[54:27] Take a bow.

[54:28] Rayya Elias, everybody.

[54:30] Take your bow at the Sydney Opera House.

[54:35] >> Thank you so much.

[54:36] [ Applause ]

Elizabeth Gilbert
ArtistElizabeth Gilbert

American author whose 2006 memoir Eat Pray Love — a year-long journey through Italy, India, and Indonesia in search of pleasure, devotion, and balance — became one of the most-read…

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Addiction-recoveryRadical-honestyTrauma-healingMemoirCreative-expression

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Frequently Asked Questions

Rayya has been clean for seventeen years, focusing on radical honesty as a core practice. She credits moving beyond simply stopping drug use to undertaking deep psychological work—transforming shame into creative expression and purposeful action. Her recovery involved addressing the internal voice that told her she was worthless.
The stumbling block is her own mind—the internal voice that convinced her she didn't belong anywhere and was fundamentally bad. She describes it in an essay as being more dangerous than the literal streets of the Lower East Side in the 1980s, because it kept her trapped in self-destructive choices.
Rayya's practice of radical honesty means directly addressing difficult truths without delay or softening, accepting whatever consequences follow. She credits this practice as essential to her recovery and as the foundation of her life as a writer and teacher—it's the antidote to the shame and secrecy that fueled her addiction.
Harley Loco is Rayya Elias's memoir of her life from the Middle East to the Lower East Side of New York, covering her experiences with hard living, drugs, recovery, identity, and creative expression. It's the extended telling of the transformation story she begins to reveal in this conversation.
They met fifteen years before this 2015 talk when Elizabeth's friends staged a 'hair intervention' and sent her to Rayya, who was a hairdresser living in the East Village. They instantly connected and became best friends, with Elizabeth crediting Rayya as one of her greatest teachers.
According to Rayya's experience, yes—but she had to first stop punishing herself for being a creative person. She learned that creativity itself wasn't the problem; trauma and addiction had made her associate it with suffering. Reclaiming her voice as a musician and writer became central to her transformation.
In Rayya's experience, finding your voice means learning to speak truths about yourself and your experience, even when it's terrifying. It involves fighting the internal narrative that says you don't belong or aren't worthy of expression, and choosing to create and communicate anyway.
According to Rayya, stopping drug use is the necessary beginning, not the destination. True recovery is the alchemy of transforming your shattered life into something purposeful and whole—it's about rebuilding your identity, reclaiming your creativity, and learning to live with honesty and purpose.

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