Transcript
[0:00] welcome to the huberman Lab podcast
[0:02] where we discuss science and
[0:04] science-based tools for everyday
[0:06] [Music]
[0:08] life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a
[0:10] professor of neurobiology and
[0:12] Opthalmology at Stanford School of
[0:14] Medicine my guest today is Robert Green
[0:17] Robert Green is an author who has
[0:19] written more than five bestselling books
[0:21] including the 48 Laws of Power the laws
[0:24] of human nature and Mastery he did his
[0:27] bachelor's training at the University of
[0:29] California Berkeley and the University
[0:31] of Wisconsin at Madison Robert Green's
[0:33] books are both unique and important for
[0:35] several reasons not the least of which
[0:37] is that they explore the interaction
[0:39] between the psychology of self
[0:41] self-exploration and the psychology of
[0:43] human interaction all rooted in history
[0:46] and modern culture and at the same time
[0:48] in a way that pertains to everybody I
[0:51] first learned about Robert's work from
[0:52] reading the book Mastery which to my
[0:55] mind is a brilliant exploration and a
[0:57] practical tool for how to think about
[0:59] and pursue one's purpose purp whenever
[1:01] I'm asked for book suggestions I always
[1:02] include Mastery in my top three
[1:04] recommendations during today's
[1:06] discussion we cover a wide range of
[1:08] topics including how to find and pursue
[1:11] and Achieve one's purpose we talk about
[1:13] the selection of a life partner as well
[1:15] as romantic and other types of
[1:17] relationships we also discussed the
[1:18] topics of motivation and urgency and
[1:21] this concept of death ground which arose
[1:23] during our discussion of Robert's recent
[1:25] stroke Robert stroke rendered him
[1:27] certain limitations but also has allowed
[1:30] him to explore how to write how to
[1:32] exercise indeed how to interface with
[1:35] life in general in new ways that allow
[1:38] him to continue to expand his sense of
[1:40] purpose I'm certain that by the end of
[1:42] today's episode you will have gleaned
[1:44] tremendous amounts of new knowledge that
[1:46] will allow you to navigate forward along
[1:48] the path to your purpose perhaps find
[1:50] your purpose if you feel you haven't
[1:51] done that yet as well as to greatly
[1:53] enhance your relationship with yourself
[1:55] with others and indeed to the world
[1:57] around you before we begin I'd like to
[2:00] emphas ize that this podcast is separate
[2:02] from my teaching and research roles at
[2:03] Stanford it is however part of my desire
[2:05] and effort to bring zero cost to
[2:07] Consumer information about science and
[2:09] science related tools to the general
[2:11] public in keeping with that theme I'd
[2:13] like to thank the sponsors of today's
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[5:49] again that's waking up.com huberman to
[5:52] access a free 30-day trial and now for
[5:54] my discussion with Robert Green Robert
[5:58] I'm so happy you're here I'm reallyy
[6:00] happy to be here Andrew thank you so
[6:01] much for inviting me a short
[6:05] story in 2015 I was teaching a course to
[6:08] undergraduates this was a big course 450
[6:11] students where was this this was when I
[6:13] was a professor at University of
[6:15] California San Diego I was about to move
[6:17] back to Stanford um but the course was
[6:21] entitled neural circuits in health and
[6:23] disease but there was a final lecture
[6:25] where I would do a lot of Q&A with the
[6:27] students about science about careers
[6:30] about career paths and what I found was
[6:32] that many of the students had questions
[6:35] about not just science but about how to
[6:37] learn and forage for information yeah
[6:40] and I recommended three books at the end
[6:43] of the course every year that I taught
[6:44] it I taught it for four years and one of
[6:48] the books was the book longitude which
[6:50] is a wonderful story about discovery of
[6:52] timekeeping devices at c um one book
[6:56] I'll leave as a mystery um not to be not
[6:58] to be mysterious but because it's not
[6:59] it's it's a science book I'll just tell
[7:01] you what it is it's um uh principles of
[7:03] Neuroscience so I thought that I don't
[7:05] know that one yeah it's a big it makes a
[7:07] better a door stop uh for most than than
[7:10] a book but it's it's a wonderful
[7:11] resource um if you want to learn about
[7:13] neuroscience and your book Mastery W and
[7:16] the reason I recommended Mastery is
[7:18] because these students were soon going
[7:19] to go into the great Jungle of yeah you
[7:22] know post uh undergraduate education and
[7:25] and for me I found Mastery to be an
[7:28] absolutely transformative book in that
[7:30] it taught me so much about how to learn
[7:33] from others how to expect certain types
[7:36] of um interactions when one kind of
[7:40] assigns themselves to a mentor um and
[7:43] vice versa and it talked about some
[7:46] things that we'll get into in more depth
[7:48] today but not the least of which is
[7:50] about identifying that um unique seed
[7:53] that exists within all of us that can
[7:55] guide our best decisions in terms of
[7:57] finding our purpose and it and so I will
[8:00] usually end with a great debt of
[8:02] gratitude and I'll probably do that
[8:03] again at the end but I want to start
[8:06] with a great debt of gratitude uh
[8:08] Mastery transformed my entire life and
[8:10] and in many ways this podcast probably
[8:12] wouldn't exist were it not for Mastery
[8:17] because um it really embedded in me this
[8:19] idea that we all have uh a deeper
[8:22] purpose and it explains how to go about
[8:25] finding that purpose so I tell you that
[8:28] and I also will use that as a segue for
[8:30] um asking you now since I'm sure
[8:33] people's ears are picked up to this you
[8:34] know how do you find your purpose um
[8:37] could you share with us what what it is
[8:40] to find one's purpose and how early life
[8:43] events perhaps can cue us to what that
[8:46] purpose is for each of us well thank you
[8:48] for that that marvelous introduction I'm
[8:51] almost blushing that's that's fantastic
[8:53] story um well you know being a human
[8:56] being is not easy as opposed to an
[8:58] animal because we're born and nobody
[9:00] gives us like a direction our parents
[9:03] might be a little bit our college
[9:05] teachers Etc mentors but generally we're
[9:07] on our own and it's a very very
[9:10] difficult process you wake up in the
[9:13] morning and you don't really know what
[9:14] you're what you can do you could choose
[9:16] 12 different paths it can be very
[9:18] confusing and very overwhelming when you
[9:21] find that sense of purpose when you find
[9:23] what I call your life's task everything
[9:25] has a direction everything has a purpose
[9:27] your energy is concentrated it's it's
[9:29] not like you're just going down a single
[9:31] narrow pathway it's not like life
[9:34] becomes boring and it's just about
[9:35] discipline and solving problems it's
[9:37] actually the most exciting thing that
[9:39] can ever happen to you because you never
[9:41] have that lost feeling you wake up in
[9:43] the morning you go yeah this is what I
[9:44] need to accomplish people come at you
[9:46] with all kinds of distractions and
[9:49] boring and irritating things you're able
[9:51] to cut it out it's just the most
[9:53] marvelous piece of internal radar that
[9:55] you can have so I genuinely wish that
[9:58] everybody can find that kind of internal
[10:01] radar and so it's not easy and I
[10:04] understand that there's no like instant
[10:06] formula because we're all about instant
[10:08] formulas it's difficult and I want you
[10:10] to know that so it's not like Robert can
[10:13] give me the answer in three minutes no I
[10:15] can't but there's a process involved
[10:17] it's not it's not you know a mystery you
[10:20] can follow a very singular process and
[10:23] the idea is you're talking about
[10:26] childhood the way I like to frame it is
[10:29] when you were were born you are a
[10:31] phenomenon you are unique your DNA has
[10:34] never occurred in the history of the
[10:36] universe going back billions of years it
[10:39] will never occur in the future your life
[10:41] experience with your parents and
[10:44] everything that you experienc in your
[10:45] early years going on up is unique it's
[10:47] yours you're are one of a kind right so
[10:52] that is your source of power to waste
[10:54] that is just the worst thing you can do
[10:56] in your life and what what the power is
[10:59] is find finding that uniqueness what
[11:01] makes you you and how you can M that and
[11:04] how you can go deep into it and use that
[11:06] to create a career path right and so I
[11:10] tell people when you're a child when
[11:12] you're four or five or even younger you
[11:15] have what the great psychologist maslo
[11:18] called impulse voices there Little
[11:21] voices in your head that say I love this
[11:24] I hate that I like this food I don't
[11:26] like when Mommy moves this way I like
[11:28] when Daddy comes from here here you're
[11:30] very queued into who you are and what
[11:32] you like and what you don't like and
[11:34] these voices kind of direct you in
[11:36] certain ways
[11:37] right and when you're very young they
[11:40] direct you towards intellectual mental
[11:42] Pursuits as well and there's a book I
[11:45] recommend for everybody uh it's Howard
[11:47] Gardner's five frames of mind it's
[11:50] helped me immensely the idea is he talks
[11:54] about five forms of
[11:55] intelligence our problem is we think of
[11:58] intelligence as mostly intellectual but
[12:00] there are many forms of intelligence
[12:03] there's the intelligence that has to do
[12:04] with words there's abstract intelligence
[12:06] that has to do with patterns and
[12:08] Mathematics there's kinetic intelligence
[12:10] it has to do with the body there's
[12:12] social intelligence he has five of them
[12:15] and the idea is your brain naturally
[12:18] veers towards one of them it can Veer
[12:20] towards two of them that happens but
[12:22] generally one of them kind of dominates
[12:24] right and it's like a grain in your
[12:27] brain that's going in a certain
[12:29] direction you want to go with that grain
[12:31] and because that's where your power will
[12:33] lie so when you're young if you go back
[12:36] and think about when you were four or
[12:38] five you you can maybe get a picture of
[12:40] some kind of direction or voice inside
[12:43] of you that was impelling you towards
[12:45] this I know for me it was
[12:48] words from I can remember when I was six
[12:51] years old I was just obsessed with words
[12:53] just the letters in Words almost like in
[12:56] almost slightly schizophrenic way I
[12:58] would spell words backwards I would take
[12:59] them apart I would do anagrams I love
[13:01] paland drums right so I had a thing
[13:04] about words and language it's very
[13:07] Primal some people you know Albert
[13:10] Einstein when he was four years old his
[13:12] father gave him a birthday gift of a
[13:14] compass and he was just mesmerized by
[13:17] this Compass the idea that there are
[13:19] invisible forces out there in the cosmos
[13:21] moving this needle and he's obsessed
[13:24] with the idea of invisible forces Steve
[13:26] Jobs when he was like seven or eight or
[13:28] maybe younger in Berling game California
[13:31] his father they passed by a store with
[13:33] de technological devices in the window
[13:36] and he was just hypnotized by the design
[13:38] of those devices and the glass tubes and
[13:41] everything so he wanted to go in that
[13:43] direction you know Tiger Woods saw his
[13:46] father hitting golf balls in the garage
[13:48] and he was just like screaming with joy
[13:50] he had to he had to do that right you
[13:52] know I can give you a million different
[13:54] examples of this of course these are
[13:56] people who are famous obviously we can
[13:58] go back and find that it's easier but
[14:01] what happens to you and please cut me
[14:03] off if I'm going on too long no please
[14:05] continue please what happens to you is
[14:08] you're seven now you're getting older
[14:11] and you're starting to not hear that
[14:12] voice anymore you're hearing the voice
[14:14] of your teachers telling you you're not
[14:16] good at this field you need to get
[14:18] better at math you know you shouldn't be
[14:20] interested in these sports or anything
[14:22] you should be going this dire your
[14:23] parents are starting to tell you this is
[14:25] the career they want for or the
[14:27] direction they want you to go in right
[14:29] you start hearing that more than your
[14:31] own voice and as you get older it gets
[14:33] worse and worse and worse then when
[14:36] you're a teenager it's all about what
[14:38] other people are doing your peers what's
[14:40] cool what's not cool you know and that
[14:42] kind of is more so all of these noise
[14:46] enters your brain and you can't hear
[14:48] that anymore you don't know who you are
[14:50] and so you go to
[14:52] college you kind of maybe choose a a
[14:56] major that seems practical that your
[14:58] parents want you to go in into maybe you
[15:00] kind of wander around you're not sure
[15:03] and then you enter the work world
[15:04] without that inner radar that I'm
[15:06] talking about and you brother you're
[15:08] lost right where should I go well I need
[15:11] to make money right and so you make a
[15:14] choice based on the need to make a lot
[15:16] of money some not everyone but some
[15:18] people do that and I understand that
[15:21] need we all need to make a living but
[15:23] that can set you off on a very bad path
[15:26] because you're not connected emotionally
[15:29] the thing is when you figure out that
[15:30] Primal inclination that grain that's
[15:32] inside of you then you have the the
[15:36] energy to to do to be disciplined to go
[15:39] through boring tasks to learn you learn
[15:42] at a faster rate because you're
[15:43] emotionally engaged when you're
[15:45] emotionally engaged in a subject the
[15:48] brain learns twice three times four
[15:50] times as fast as when you're not I
[15:53] always give the example in college I
[15:56] studied foreign languages which was kind
[15:58] of a passion of mine
[16:00] for three or four years I studied French
[16:03] and then I went to Paris and I couldn't
[16:05] speak a word it was it was useless
[16:08] because it didn't teach me anything
[16:09] practical right I was totally confused
[16:12] and then but I was in Paris and I and I
[16:14] loved it and I wanted to live there
[16:16] right and I had a girlfriend and I
[16:17] needed to speak French to her and I can
[16:20] tell you in one month I learned more
[16:21] than those four years of University
[16:24] because I wanted to because I was
[16:25] engaged my emotions were there it was
[16:28] like I had to survive survive to learn
[16:30] French whereas so most of us we don't
[16:33] have a need really to learn this subject
[16:35] We're Half we're paying half attention
[16:38] but when you find that thing that really
[16:39] connects to you you're paying deep
[16:42] attention your emotions are engaged
[16:44] you're learning at a much faster rate
[16:47] okay and so the thing is how do you find
[16:50] that when you're older when you're 21 I
[16:53] I I give people a lot of help and it's
[16:55] usually not so difficult we can go
[16:56] through that process it gets harder when
[16:59] you're 30 and you've been wandering
[17:00] around but it's not impossible I didn't
[17:03] really start find my exact path until I
[17:07] was 38 39 to be honest so there's hope
[17:11] when you get 40 and you get 50 gets more
[17:13] and more difficult right and it's very
[17:15] sad if you wasted that seed of
[17:17] uniqueness that I'm talking about and I
[17:19] tell people there are ways of going back
[17:21] and we go through a process like
[17:23] archaeology we have to dig and dig and
[17:25] dig and find those bones from your
[17:26] childhood that indicated what you were
[17:28] meant to do
[17:29] but when you find your life's task
[17:31] everything opens up it doesn't mean you
[17:34] figured out okay I've got to aim for
[17:36] this particular job when I'm 28 that's
[17:38] not how it works it gives you a sense of
[17:40] direction you can try different things
[17:42] you can experiment you can have fun when
[17:44] you're in your 20s you're going to learn
[17:46] you're going to learn skills but it
[17:48] gives you an overall framework instead
[17:50] of whoa all this confusion this chaos
[17:52] social media the internet I could go
[17:54] here here here you're lost at C it gives
[17:56] you a very important sense of direction
[17:58] a compass
[18:00] as you described this I I have this
[18:03] image of um you know you mentioned
[18:05] animals um that presumably don't have a
[18:08] lot of flexibility in terms of the
[18:10] niches they can exist in but the way I
[18:12] imagine this process is that as a human
[18:15] we're plopped into a environment and
[18:17] here I'm using analogy where um we don't
[18:21] really know if we are an aquatic animal
[18:23] a terrestrial animal or a or an Aven
[18:26] right or an amphibian or an amphibian
[18:28] for that matter um and to make the wrong
[18:30] choice right to be an amphibian who's
[18:32] trying to fly although I'm sure they're
[18:34] out there um in the animal kingdom uh it
[18:38] it's not just a waste of time it's
[18:41] probably deadly um and not to overd
[18:44] dramatize the the failure of finding
[18:46] one's purpose but I see it that way
[18:48] whereas um perhaps we could just say
[18:50] that the process of finding one's
[18:52] purpose is to to realize like ah you
[18:54] know um I'm an amphibian I can go in and
[18:57] out of water whereas a bunch of other
[18:59] creatures around me stop at the water's
[19:01] edge right right and this is really cool
[19:04] and a bunch of these other things like
[19:05] these flying things that they can't
[19:06] actually even go in the water some of
[19:08] them might you know be on the surface or
[19:09] dive into it but they they can't do what
[19:11] I can do so the process of
[19:12] self-discovery it sounds like it's about
[19:14] um restricting one's choices to a a a
[19:18] sort of wedge within the full landscape
[19:20] of of options and um you know for me I
[19:24] can certainly recall after reading
[19:26] Mastery it helped me recall some early
[19:28] seed emotions that I experienced as a
[19:31] very distinct sensation in my body can
[19:34] you describe that yeah um without making
[19:37] it too um specific to my my unique taste
[19:40] you know as a kid I loved um flora and
[19:42] fauna I loved learning about biology
[19:44] sure yeah no surprise there um but
[19:47] animals and how they move in particular
[19:49] and fish and going to a a proper
[19:51] aquarium store for the first time for me
[19:53] and going snorkeling for the first time
[19:55] was like Wow and even as I describe it
[19:58] it's almost like my body fls I feel it
[19:59] in my left arm of all things and it
[20:02] feels like there's something to do about
[20:03] it it's not just that I'm in observation
[20:06] of things that Delight me right it's
[20:07] like there's something there's an
[20:08] activation State created within me like
[20:10] I got to do something with this and
[20:12] typically it's tell everybody about it
[20:14] until they won't listen anymore um but
[20:17] oftentimes it's to also draw those
[20:19] things to think about them and I just
[20:21] Delight in them it's a constant source
[20:22] of delight and so seeds such as those
[20:24] and there are a few other things in that
[20:26] in that landscape of Flora and Fauna and
[20:29] learning about animals and biology
[20:33] including the human animal and then
[20:34] organizing information feels so
[20:36] satisfying to me it's like a drug that
[20:39] um and so it just felt feels like this
[20:41] you know Eternal spring of of life right
[20:45] and so for me that's what it was and to
[20:48] and in 2015 when I was teaching that
[20:50] course the course I loved but I was
[20:51] feeling a little bit astray in my
[20:53] scientific career and then I read
[20:55] Mastery and I realized yes I love
[20:58] running a laboratory I love teaching but
[20:59] there's something else for me and it has
[21:02] to do not with a podcast I didn't even
[21:04] know what a podcast I probably I knew
[21:05] what a podcast was I was listening to
[21:07] podcast at that time but um but I wasn't
[21:10] on social media I had no thoughts of
[21:11] having a podcast but what I wanted was
[21:13] that feeling in
[21:15] its total number of forms that's the
[21:18] goal get that feeling in as many forms
[21:19] as possible right is that is that about
[21:22] that's a that's that's absolutely
[21:23] perfect because the connection to what
[21:26] I'm talking about it's not an
[21:29] intellectual thing it's it's visceral
[21:31] it's emotional it's physical right and
[21:33] you feel it in your body and when you're
[21:35] doing it it's like it's at your level
[21:38] it's like you're swimming with the
[21:39] current you feel it things are easy
[21:41] everything clicks together there's a
[21:43] delight not everything is going to be
[21:45] delightful there's going to be tedium
[21:47] involved there's going to be moments of
[21:48] boredom but you're able to withstand the
[21:51] moments of boredom because you feel the
[21:53] Deep overall connection so yes that's
[21:56] precisely what I'm talking about I mean
[21:59] it's for me it's a little bit similar
[22:01] thing is I said about words but the
[22:03] other thing that I was obsessed with
[22:05] when I was a kid was early human
[22:09] ancestors don't ask me why I just was so
[22:12] obsessed with our ancestors millions of
[22:14] years ago and how it's possible to be
[22:17] living here in the 60s or 70s with cars
[22:19] and everything but to come to where we
[22:22] are now and I wrote a a short story when
[22:26] I was eight years old about a vulture It
[22:30] Was Written from the point of view of a
[22:31] vulture watching the first humans kind
[22:33] of emerge on the planet I'm sure it was
[22:36] absolutely awful Dreadful but the weird
[22:38] thing is I'm writing a new book and all
[22:41] I'm doing in that book is going into ear
[22:43] into early humans and I feel like a kid
[22:45] again I'm so excited I'm so happy so I
[22:48] can very much relate to your
[22:50] story you mentioned these five different
[22:52] forms of intelligence or frame frames of
[22:54] Mind as you refer to them um and I'm
[22:59] certainly aware that you know I lean
[23:01] towards a more intellectual interests
[23:03] although as you pointed out the the
[23:05] excitement the Delight is visceral yeah
[23:07] and the actions are actions they're of
[23:09] the body ultimately right um one has to
[23:11] draw speak write books Etc um to to
[23:15] transmute that excitement into something
[23:17] real for people that are not as
[23:21] intellectually tuned but maybe are
[23:23] kinesthetically tuned for instance um I
[23:26] can only wonder what that's like uh I'm
[23:28] not completely uncoordinated but I don't
[23:30] think I have a kinesthetic Attunement uh
[23:33] or frame of mind but I for instance um
[23:35] had a podcast listener mention that they
[23:40] think in feels that they literally
[23:44] experience thought as a Ser as sort of a
[23:47] patchwork of bodily Sensations right and
[23:50] that thought for them is not of the
[23:53] stuff from the neck up but only from the
[23:56] neck down which to me was really
[23:57] intriguing and so I only raise this
[24:01] because um there have to be a as you
[24:02] point out there's an infinite number of
[24:04] different sort of um orientations based
[24:06] on our unique DNA and experience but
[24:09] what do you
[24:10] think explains why these particular
[24:13] seeds or uh as you point out like the
[24:15] the the direction that the grain runs in
[24:17] the brain I mean it's it's partially
[24:19] going to be nature it's going to be DNA
[24:22] um but we we're talking about this as if
[24:25] there's some exciting or a inspiring or
[24:28] delightful
[24:29] thing that captures us can it be the
[24:31] other way too can it be um you know one
[24:35] has a bad experience as a child in an
[24:37] intellectual environment and then
[24:39] decides you know I'm I'm going in the D
[24:42] things of the body feel good things of
[24:44] the mind of intellect feels bad and does
[24:47] it matter whether or not we are drawn to
[24:49] our Purpose By recognizing what we love
[24:53] or what we hate um or are both useful oh
[24:56] they're both very very useful um you
[25:00] know a lot of intelligence is is not is
[25:03] non-verbal we think in terms of images
[25:06] we're we're very much infected by the
[25:08] emotions of other people so I know for
[25:11] instance uh my mother is very very
[25:14] interested in history she's obsessed
[25:16] with history and I probably absorbed her
[25:19] interest in history I don't think
[25:21] there's a genetic a gene for that
[25:23] interest you know so you're you're going
[25:25] to absorb things from your parents as
[25:27] well so it's not all just genetic but
[25:30] yeah what you hate will pay a big will
[25:32] have a big thing but the problem with
[25:34] doing that is if you go into a direction
[25:38] in you're in you're in elementary school
[25:40] Etc and they force you to learn math and
[25:42] you hate it what it tends to do is it
[25:44] turns you off from learning in general
[25:47] you think I don't want to I don't want
[25:49] to I don't want to be disciplined I
[25:50] don't want to go through anything
[25:51] because it's painful doesn't lead
[25:53] anywhere it's not me frustration it
[25:55] turns you off from learning in general
[25:57] so it's really really important for a
[26:00] child to have the love experience as
[26:02] early as possible so that they can know
[26:05] what they hate and why they hate it
[26:07] right and then they can Rebel and they
[26:08] can go into that field as opposed to I
[26:11] hate learning I hate discipline I hate
[26:13] studying I hate trying things over and
[26:15] over again if you're kinesthetically
[26:17] oriented and you know a part of me I
[26:20] understand that because I love sports is
[26:23] you have to you have to practice it's
[26:24] going to take a lot of it's not you're
[26:26] not going to instantly be good at
[26:27] something right and that's going to
[26:29] require a love of it right but if your
[26:32] math experience I hate learning
[26:35] you're not you're it's going to transfer
[26:37] to sports you're going to hate
[26:38] discipline in general so it's very
[26:40] important for parents to let that child
[26:43] have at least glimmers of that love
[26:45] moment I know for me when I um finished
[26:49] college and I entered the work world I
[26:52] had to get a job I got worked in
[26:54] journalism I hated it I hated working
[26:57] for other people I hated hated office
[26:59] politics I hated all the egos I hated
[27:02] the smarminess I hated the lack of
[27:04] quality it was all just about you know
[27:07] making money and getting things out
[27:08] there and then I worked in Hollywood I
[27:11] hated Hollywood I hated working in
[27:12] Hollywood that formed me very much maybe
[27:16] go in the direction that I went in but
[27:18] only from the basis of I knew that I
[27:20] wanted to be a writer so you know that's
[27:22] very important that it's not just hate
[27:24] it can form you but there also has to be
[27:27] that posit of deep emotional love of
[27:30] something that also is grounded in you
[27:32] in some way what you just said really
[27:35] highlights the fact that energy and
[27:37] motivation can come from either either
[27:40] pressure you know desire for something
[27:43] or desire to get away from something and
[27:45] um earlier when you were talking about
[27:48] um how we are so much more engaged and
[27:52] driven toward things that stir us
[27:55] emotionally and and actually we know
[27:57] based on the neuroscience you know too
[27:59] I'm sure that um only by the release of
[28:03] certain neurochemicals in the brain and
[28:04] body would our brain have any reason to
[28:06] change right if you don't feel agitation
[28:08] and you can do everything that you're
[28:09] trying to do of course your brain
[28:10] wouldn't change like why would it right
[28:12] that agitation is a is a signature of
[28:15] the neurochemicals that are saying hey
[28:17] something's different now right right
[28:18] you might need to do something different
[28:20] including rewire yourself right um and
[28:23] that can come from positive or negative
[28:25] experiences I'm obsessed with this idea
[28:27] of energy I mean we all want to have
[28:29] more energy and focus and normally we
[28:31] hear about the concept of energy in the
[28:33] context of caloric energy like what
[28:34] should we eat and when and how much and
[28:37] we need to get sleep but what you're
[28:38] really referring to is neural energy
[28:41] like the the engagement of ourselves
[28:44] that's you know uh sitting there ready
[28:47] to be engaged but it requires the right
[28:49] experiential macronutrients right the
[28:51] experiential micronutrients as opposed
[28:54] to of course we need good nutrition but
[28:56] that's not sufficient it's necessary but
[28:58] not sufficient so uh would you say that
[29:01] when um we are let let's say since a
[29:03] good number of our listeners are in
[29:05] adulthood um you know from our 20s on
[29:09] that the things that excite us as adults
[29:11] that really generate some feeling of
[29:13] Readiness or or grab our attention um
[29:17] are still informative toward guiding our
[29:20] decisions about best life and life
[29:22] purpose well um what do you what exactly
[29:25] do you mean by that I mean like because
[29:29] there are things that excite you in in a
[29:31] kind of a quick way like you know where
[29:34] you have to relieve some tension and you
[29:36] there's entertainment and there's things
[29:38] that kind of give you pretty immediate
[29:40] gratification and there's the larger P
[29:42] picture of something that will give you
[29:45] fulfillment over years to come so you
[29:48] can feel that when you're older and you
[29:49] can pay attention to it but a lot of the
[29:52] time is we we're paying too much
[29:54] attention to the immediate pleasures of
[29:56] life to what gives us instant
[29:57] gratification and that's what we're
[29:59] grabbing for so this is a much more kind
[30:02] of deeper process that involves that
[30:04] digging that I was saying it it's it's
[30:06] deeper than just kind of I like this I
[30:09] don't like that you know kind of thing
[30:11] it's it's more it's more something macro
[30:15] than than just just that and so when
[30:18] you're in your 20s or in your 30s or
[30:20] your 40s you want to be paying attention
[30:22] to yourself and the problem with people
[30:25] in the world today is you're not paying
[30:27] attention to yourself not inside your
[30:29] own head you don't hear those voices you
[30:31] don't hear what you love what you like
[30:33] anymore because as I said there's so
[30:35] many of these other distractions going
[30:37] on and so you're always like attuned to
[30:40] what other people like right because
[30:42] you're in social media this is what
[30:44] people are following this is what
[30:45] they're interested in as opposed to
[30:48] disengaging backing off from that and
[30:50] and looking at yourself and going
[30:52] through the process of that's not me
[30:55] actually I don't really like that you
[30:57] know and so what you're talking about is
[30:59] I think very profound is levels of
[31:02] frustration or anxiety are definite
[31:06] signals that you must pay attention to
[31:08] that they're telling you this isn't a
[31:10] good direction for you this is a waste
[31:12] of time for you and in general I tell
[31:15] people selfawareness being able to hear
[31:18] those voices to understand that your
[31:20] frustration is telling you something and
[31:23] sometimes you you just act on it without
[31:26] understanding it but understanding why
[31:28] why you're frustrated why you don't like
[31:30] your career why you're not happy about
[31:32] where you're going is the key to
[31:34] everything it will open up it will
[31:36] actually be able even in your 30s to
[31:38] return you to that childhood inclination
[31:41] but if you can't listen to where those
[31:43] emotions come from then they're useless
[31:45] they're not teaching you
[31:47] anything as we all know quality
[31:49] nutrition influences of course our
[31:51] physical health but also our mental
[31:53] health and our cognitive functioning our
[31:55] memory our ability to learn new things
[31:56] and to focus and we know that one of the
[31:58] most important features of highquality
[32:00] nutrition is making sure that we get
[32:02] enough vitamins and minerals from high
[32:04] quality unprocessed or minimally
[32:06] processed sources as well as enough
[32:08] probiotics and prebiotics and fiber to
[32:10] support basically all the cellular
[32:12] functions in our body including the gut
[32:14] microbiome now I like most everybody try
[32:17] to get optimal nutrition from Whole
[32:20] Foods ideally mostly from minimally
[32:22] processed or nonprocessed Foods however
[32:25] one of the challenges that I and so many
[32:26] other people face is getting enough
[32:28] servings of high quality fruits and
[32:30] vegetables per day as well as fiber and
[32:32] probiotics that often accompany those
[32:33] fruits and vegetables that's why way
[32:35] back in 2012 long before I ever had a
[32:38] podcast I started drinking ag1 and so
[32:41] I'm delighted that ag1 is sponsoring the
[32:43] huberman Lab podcast the reason I
[32:45] started taking ag1 and the reason I
[32:47] still drink ag1 once or twice a day is
[32:49] that it provides all of my foundational
[32:51] nutritional needs that is it provides
[32:53] insurance that I get the proper amounts
[32:56] of those vitamins minerals probiotics
[32:57] and F fiber to ensure optimal mental
[33:00] health physical health and performance
[33:03] if you'd like to try ag1 you can go to
[33:05] drink a1.com huberman to claim a special
[33:08] offer they're giving away five free
[33:10] travel packs plus a year supply of
[33:12] vitamin D3 K2 again that's drink a1.com
[33:16] huberman to claim that special offer so
[33:19] it sounds like one of the goals is to
[33:23] engage in what I'll just call for the
[33:25] moment unadulterated self-referencing
[33:28] you know unadulterated uh in the the all
[33:31] senses of the word because um as a child
[33:35] as you point out um at stages of life
[33:38] that are before puberty they're
[33:40] literally prex um which I think is
[33:42] important right because um puberty to me
[33:46] as a neurobiologist who started off as a
[33:48] developmental
[33:50] neurobiologist I can tell you that
[33:51] puberty is the most profound
[33:53] transformation that the brain undergoes
[33:55] for in the entire lifespan there's just
[33:57] absolutely no question about it
[33:59] everything is different after puberty
[34:01] because of all of the new relational
[34:03] dynamics that become apparent and our
[34:06] potential involvement in them yeah it's
[34:08] just it's you know it's not talked about
[34:10] enough how dramatically puberty changes
[34:12] the brain sure I mean we are different
[34:14] people before and after puberty hormones
[34:16] that are suddenly raging the hormones
[34:18] are there and it's not just changes in
[34:21] how we view the world but changes in how
[34:23] the World Views us and not just through
[34:25] the lens of sexuality but also
[34:28] expectation of what we are capable of
[34:30] what we are responsible for or not
[34:32] responsible for our learning capacity I
[34:35] mean puberty is like this you know it's
[34:37] also the most rapid stage of Aging in
[34:39] our entire lifespan those kids that go
[34:41] home for summer and then come back like
[34:44] shaving you know I was sort of a late I
[34:47] wasn't a late bloomer but I had a long
[34:48] protracted puberty but I remember those
[34:49] kids I'm sure we we all remember those
[34:51] kids um everything changes and so I
[34:53] think prior to puberty these seeds as
[34:56] you've described them of of delight or
[34:59] of resistance to things think they are
[35:02] unadulterated they're not contaminated
[35:04] by the voices and expectations of others
[35:06] and so I can see the challenge of
[35:08] reaching back to those as an adult um I
[35:11] wonder if this relates to um something
[35:13] that I've heard you talk about before
[35:16] although perhaps not as much as some of
[35:18] the other topics you've discussed
[35:20] publicly which is um the real versus the
[35:23] false Sublime oh um could you perhaps
[35:27] just Define for us what Sublime really
[35:30] is what a Sublime experience is and and
[35:32] the distinction between real and false
[35:35] Sublime experiences because I I feel
[35:36] like this relates to finding that seed
[35:40] right it's it's about finding authentic
[35:42] seeds of within us as opposed to when
[35:44] emotions can be distracting and
[35:45] misleading wow I never thought I never
[35:48] made that connection and it's the book
[35:49] that I'm writing right now so thank you
[35:51] for that I have to think about that I'm
[35:54] actually I'm writing a book on the
[35:56] sublime and um I have several ways of
[35:59] kind of illustrating I generally like to
[36:01] use a metaphor and the metaphor is that
[36:04] being a human being being a social human
[36:07] being living in a particular culture
[36:09] means that you live inside of a circle
[36:12] and that Circle of that time are the
[36:14] conventions of thinking of ideas that
[36:17] are acceptable of behavior that is
[36:19] acceptable this is where you where you
[36:21] can go mentally where you can go
[36:22] physically you know all the codes and
[36:25] conventions so that's Circle for ancient
[36:29] Egypt and for 21st century America
[36:32] they're obviously very different but
[36:33] it's the same Circle it's the same
[36:35] limiting factor you're not supposed to
[36:37] go outside of it these are thoughts
[36:39] experiences Behavior you're not supposed
[36:41] to do the sublime is what lies just
[36:45] outside that Circle um the word sublime
[36:49] comes from on the threshold of it's like
[36:52] here's a door and the sublime is
[36:55] literally at the threshold of the door
[36:57] you're looking out into something else
[37:00] right and the quintessential Sublime
[37:04] experience is a near-death experience
[37:06] you're standing on the on the doorway
[37:08] the threshold of death itself right and
[37:11] so in my book I'm illustrating the
[37:14] different kinds of sublime experiences
[37:16] that you can have in relation to the
[37:18] cosmos in relation to thinking about
[37:21] being alive just being alive is the
[37:23] strangest sensation you can possibly
[37:25] have I have I know that very personally
[37:27] after my stroke I go into childhood
[37:29] chapter on childhood and how Sublime
[37:31] your own childhood was I go into animals
[37:34] relation to animals I go have a chapter
[37:36] about the brain chapter about love I'm
[37:39] working right now on a chapter about
[37:40] history okay but what I'm trying to say
[37:44] is the human brain is wired for these
[37:46] experiences is wired for transcendental
[37:49] experiences that take us out of the
[37:51] narrow little realm that we live in
[37:53] because we're aware of our death as the
[37:55] only animal truly conscious of it own
[37:58] mortality and it frightens the hell out
[38:00] of us and the idea that we can see
[38:03] something larger than than just the the
[38:06] the banal parts of our life is a doorway
[38:09] that open allows us to kind of transcend
[38:11] the moment to feel connected to
[38:13] something larger to feel connected to
[38:15] some power in the cosmos to Evolution
[38:18] itself right and so we're wired for that
[38:21] and I'm writing a chapter now about
[38:24] 40,000 years ago at the moment where I
[38:26] think the sublime was born is a story
[38:29] that I'm trying to illustrate right now
[38:31] with our upper Paleolithic
[38:33] ancestors so it's deep inside of us we
[38:36] need it we have to have it in the 21st
[38:38] century we have very few avenues for it
[38:41] any real Avenues religion used to be the
[38:44] main kind of way of of accessing this
[38:48] and so because it's so deep we reach for
[38:51] false forms of the sublime that give us
[38:53] the sense that we're we're transcending
[38:56] but it's not at all because
[38:58] Sublime has to come from within it's an
[39:01] experience that you have that you're
[39:04] generating in your own mind in your own
[39:06] experience the false Sublime comes from
[39:08] outside it comes from drugs it comes
[39:11] from alcohol it comes from shopping it
[39:14] comes from online rage it comes from
[39:18] joining a cause and just getting out all
[39:20] your aggression and violence right it
[39:22] comes from causes it comes from
[39:25] addictions okay it gives you a sense it
[39:28] calms you down and makes you feel like
[39:30] there's something else going on in life
[39:32] besides your job that you're you're sick
[39:34] of but it's not real it's not lasting
[39:36] it's false it's an illusion it's not
[39:38] based on anything real it's not
[39:40] connecting to that deep part of human
[39:42] nature that's wired for these
[39:44] experiences so what happens is you have
[39:47] to have more and more and more and more
[39:49] of it you have to have you know more of
[39:52] this rush you need more of the drug you
[39:54] need more of the alcohol you need more
[39:55] of the sex you need more of the porn
[39:57] it's never going to satisfy you but the
[39:59] real Sublime you don't have that feeling
[40:02] it's like it's transformative once you
[40:04] feel it it lasts for you for the rest of
[40:06] your life it's what maslo again called a
[40:08] peak experience so that's the difference
[40:11] between the false and the real Sublime I
[40:15] haven't quite connected it to what you
[40:16] were saying but if I think about it I
[40:18] think you're on something very
[40:19] interesting I mean maybe the connection
[40:21] I was trying to draw was uh doesn't hold
[40:23] but yeah for me
[40:25] um those early experiences of seeing
[40:28] things that just delighted me in a way
[40:31] that felt like that not only is well the
[40:34] the the thought process was a long time
[40:37] ago when something like oh my goodness I
[40:40] can't believe this exists this is so
[40:42] cool this is the coolest thing and so
[40:45] clearly create an activation state
[40:47] within me but then there was also a
[40:50] thought and a feeling of again a lot of
[40:52] this is sort of pre preverb it's not
[40:55] truly preverbal I could speak at that
[40:56] age but it was
[40:58] um that's of me and I'm of it right
[41:02] there's a connection there and then it
[41:04] was there's something to do about this
[41:06] the activation State created in the body
[41:08] was you know I I need to learn more
[41:09] about this I need to tell people about
[41:11] this I need to think about this I need
[41:13] more examples of this and see whether or
[41:16] not they're all like this you know etc
[41:18] etc um so certainly it meets some of the
[41:22] criteria of a Sublime experience
[41:25] definitely and I knew again when I was
[41:28] in graduate school and again when I was
[41:29] this young Professor about to transition
[41:31] to tenure that I knew it was going going
[41:33] to do something different it was as if I
[41:35] was on the threshold of something but I
[41:37] didn't know what that next thing was but
[41:39] I could trust it because of that early
[41:41] experience of knowing that's the threat
[41:44] like like I'm an amphibian this is my
[41:46] environment and you're an amphibian too
[41:48] right and we're different amphibians but
[41:50] you know we're going to be amphibians
[41:51] together right and then and there's a
[41:53] permanence to it that it does seem to
[41:55] transcend time I'm obsessed with time
[41:57] perception so I have to be careful not
[41:58] to go off on a tangent about that but
[42:00] the human brain's ability to F slice or
[42:03] macro slice time is incredible and and
[42:05] it's been set of um not just addictions
[42:08] but also interactions with toxic people
[42:11] that they murder time that that humans
[42:14] have a I think it was young I I'll look
[42:17] it up but um one of the great
[42:19] psychologists said something to the
[42:21] extent that um addictive behaviors
[42:25] thought patterns substances are humans
[42:28] attempts to murder time so that they
[42:31] don't have to address their mortality
[42:35] yeah and that's always made a lot of
[42:37] sense to me yeah we say kill time is our
[42:39] expression kill time through passive
[42:42] engagement but also kill time through um
[42:44] trying to get overwhelmed or overtaken
[42:46] by an experience or a substance as
[42:49] opposed to when you're truly connected
[42:52] you have that sense of
[42:53] flow and 3 hours can pass by and you're
[42:57] not even aware Ware of it so time is a
[42:59] totally subjective experience it can be
[43:02] extremely slow and tedious and you feel
[43:04] very depressed or it can pass by but
[43:07] that passes by without you even noticing
[43:09] it and it's a wondrous experience you
[43:12] know when I'm deep in my writing I'm not
[43:14] aware of the time passing I'm so
[43:16] involved I'm so immersed it's a deeply
[43:19] deeply pleasurable experience of time it
[43:21] is Sublime and yeah so I agree with you
[43:24] I think your distinction is very
[43:25] interesting you I'm eager awaiting your
[43:28] your next book but we won't rush you
[43:30] well I I I'm I'm so immersed in it that
[43:33] I could I could talk for hours because I
[43:34] also have a chapter in there about what
[43:36] I call the
[43:38] dayon which is like that voice inside of
[43:41] you that speaks to you and I'm writing a
[43:44] whole chapter about how Sublime that is
[43:45] when you connect to that voice so you
[43:48] are spoton there is something very much
[43:50] connected to master in this book but
[43:52] it's the next chapter that I'm writing
[43:54] fantastic I can't wait I can't wait I'd
[43:57] like to shift slightly to a topic that
[44:00] you've written extensively about which
[44:02] is power um and not just power but also
[44:06] seduction which you've written
[44:07] extensively about and of course you've
[44:10] written about finding one's purpose so
[44:13] tell me if the framework that I've just
[44:15] given myself Liberty to create is an
[44:17] accurate one and if it's not I I'm
[44:19] hoping that um it's not in perhaps some
[44:22] interesting ways so to me you talk about
[44:26] and we will talk about power as as a
[44:28] resource it's it's something that um
[44:32] it's there as a resource it could be
[44:34] used or not used um and I think of
[44:37] Seduction as one form of exchange
[44:39] between an individuals so there's a verb
[44:41] associated with seduction power I'm
[44:43] thinking of more as a noun in this
[44:44] context you're the word guy um and then
[44:48] you know purpose is uh is really about
[44:51] finding like to what end or ends one is
[44:53] going to um devote power seduction and
[44:56] the other forces that allow human beings
[44:58] to interact with each other in the world
[45:01] um but power as a resource that can be
[45:04] expressed in different ways and accessed
[45:07] in different ways maybe we could just
[45:08] explore that a little bit because you
[45:11] know when we hear the word power I think
[45:13] a lot of people kind of brace themselves
[45:15] like here we go someone's going to try
[45:16] and have power over me this is about
[45:18] manipulation and so on and so forth but
[45:23] I learned pretty early on that every
[45:26] every career Endeavor there there are
[45:28] power dynamics there's Mentor mentee
[45:30] they teachers and their students and
[45:32] both have power um in inter in romantic
[45:35] relationship there's a power exchange
[45:38] there are yeses and their NOS there are
[45:39] Mayes there are um uh covert and overt
[45:45] contracts yeah I'll do this because I
[45:48] want to right you'll do this because you
[45:50] want to great sounds great overt
[45:51] contractor they're also covert contracts
[45:53] well I don't feel safe doing that so
[45:55] what I'll do is I'll take something on
[45:57] through from the interaction that you're
[45:59] not aware of so that I can sort of um
[46:01] ease my sense of danger and make give
[46:04] myself the illusion of feeling safe and
[46:06] all sorts of kind of complicated human
[46:08] dynamics that have to do with us having
[46:10] this forbrain thing that can do all of
[46:12] that gymnastics so maybe we could start
[46:15] very simply by just saying you know how
[46:16] would you define power in terms of its
[46:20] uh functional definition like in in in
[46:23] interpersonal relations and then why do
[46:25] you think power is so essential to all
[46:29] relationships that's really what I'd
[46:31] like to get to why is it so essential
[46:33] why couldn't it be something else well
[46:37] the way I Define Powers I try and take
[46:38] it away from that kind of negative
[46:40] context that most people have and that
[46:42] you that you brought up and I bring it
[46:44] to something very primitive and very
[46:46] Primal the way the human being is wired
[46:50] the feeling that we have no control over
[46:53] our environment and in the earliest
[46:55] period it was literally over our
[46:56] environment and wild animals and nature
[46:59] and and climate Etc but now the sense
[47:02] that you have no control over your
[47:04] career over your children over your
[47:07] parents is deeply deeply am miserating
[47:11] and it compels us to act in certain ways
[47:13] either attempts to find positive ways of
[47:17] power or doing what you call covert ways
[47:19] of getting power you know passive
[47:21] aggressive traditionally passive
[47:23] aggressive means so it's deeply wired in
[47:26] us to want a degree of control over the
[47:29] immediate environment and immediate
[47:31] events we can never have complete
[47:33] control and the idea of having complete
[47:35] control is nonsense and it would
[47:36] actually be very ugly because you want a
[47:38] degree of Letting Go and letting
[47:40] circumstances come to you etc
[47:42] etc so the sense of you you you want to
[47:47] feel like with other people and
[47:50] relationships that you can influence
[47:52] them that you can move them in a certain
[47:54] direction either to get you to love you
[47:56] and treat treat you better or either to
[47:59] stop annoying irritating behaviors or
[48:01] either to you know wake up and and find
[48:04] and and and do productive activity if
[48:06] it's your children Etc you want to have
[48:08] the ability to influence people to move
[48:11] them in a certain direction either in
[48:14] your interest or in their interest right
[48:17] and once you have that need and every
[48:21] single human being ever who's ever lived
[48:23] has that need and we often don't
[48:25] recognize it because we're in
[48:27] embarrassed by it we're embarrassed by
[48:28] our desire for power for our need to
[48:31] control every human being has it right
[48:34] and it's not easy because human beings
[48:36] are
[48:37] complicated they don't if you say do
[48:40] this and you're talking to your son
[48:42] he'll do the opposite or he'll do
[48:44] something else you can't just force
[48:46] people in a direction right by being
[48:48] overt and telling them this is what you
[48:50] need to do you create resentment you
[48:52] create an enemy they may they may say
[48:54] yes yes daddy yes husband I'll do what
[48:56] you say say but they're you they're
[48:59] they're going to resist you deep down
[49:00] inside right so people are tricky they
[49:05] wear masks they pretend to say one thing
[49:07] and they do another they have their egos
[49:09] and you inadvertently wound their egos
[49:11] or trip them in some way and they react
[49:14] in a way that you don't expect and so
[49:17] power is this kind of invisible realm
[49:19] that envelops Society where people are
[49:22] continually battling each other and
[49:24] struggling in it but no one is like
[49:26] talking about it no one's being overt
[49:28] about it no one's saying this is exactly
[49:30] what I'm trying to do and so when you
[49:33] enter the social world and the career
[49:35] world you're not expecting these battles
[49:37] you don't know no one's taught you no
[49:39] one's trained you your parents don't
[49:40] train you nobody trains you and you make
[49:43] mistakes and you realize how political
[49:45] people are if you're a Sharky character
[49:48] and there's a certain percentage of them
[49:50] you realize wow I can deceive people I
[49:53] can manipulate them I can get what I
[49:55] want I can pretend to love them and they
[49:57] they'll fall for me and I can do all
[49:59] this other stuff but for most of us the
[50:01] 95% of us who aren't sharks and I'm I'm
[50:04] including myself in that category it's
[50:07] it's it's very very disturbing to
[50:09] suddenly enter that world and see all of
[50:12] that invisible power games on that's no
[50:14] one's given you any advice for helped
[50:16] you and so take it out of the realm of
[50:20] it's just about trying to dominate the
[50:22] world and manipulate and exploit and and
[50:25] abuse it's something inside of you you
[50:28] have this need and your suppression of
[50:31] it will only make you come out in
[50:34] passive ways and you won't be able to
[50:36] control certain things if you want to
[50:39] move people if you want them to follow
[50:42] your ideas if you want them to be more
[50:45] aligned with your politics or your ideas
[50:49] you have to be subtle you have to learn
[50:51] psychology you have to learn certain
[50:53] aspects of how to almost move people
[50:56] without them realizing against in
[50:58] certain directions which is like The Art
[51:00] of Seduction and if you're not
[51:02] interested in that if you're just going
[51:04] to tell people what you think of what
[51:05] you're going to do that means you're not
[51:07] interested in Practical action you're
[51:08] not interested in results you're just
[51:10] interested in venting your own
[51:11] frustrations or your own anger so
[51:14] learning the subtle little dynamics of
[51:17] power is extremely essential because
[51:19] we're a social animal it doesn't mean
[51:22] that you're going to get dirty that
[51:23] you're going to suddenly go out there
[51:24] and manipulate the hell out of people
[51:27] most of the 48 Laws of Power is about
[51:29] defense but how to defend yourself from
[51:32] the Sharks about there how to defend
[51:34] yourself from making classic mistakes
[51:36] like outshining the master like talking
[51:39] too much like arguing with people
[51:41] instead of demonstrating your ideas on
[51:43] and on and on it's not an ugly thing it
[51:46] actually makes you a better social
[51:48] individual so that's how I I like to
[51:50] frame it it's very interesting I I
[51:54] think as a young guy growing up it was
[51:57] so important to me um to know where I
[52:00] fit in with my friend group um and I
[52:02] didn't think of it so much as a
[52:05] hierarchy um nor when I was in my
[52:08] academic studies did I think of it as a
[52:10] hierarchy even though it was clearly was
[52:13] right um so much as it the goal was to
[52:16] figure out where was my unique slot that
[52:20] I could um do the most good for myself
[52:24] and others you know kind of finding my
[52:26] spot um I don't want to say on a shelf
[52:28] because that gives an image of something
[52:30] vertical but you know in the let's make
[52:32] it lateral a lateral arrangement of
[52:34] different people with different
[52:35] strengths different life purposes trying
[52:36] to figure them out you know where where
[52:39] should I be in order to express that and
[52:42] also feel connected to others and um and
[52:45] in order to do that I did have to I
[52:47] realize now based on your answer I did
[52:50] have to figure out um you know who's
[52:52] trying to have power over who's
[52:55] pretending that they don't want Power
[52:57] but is actually exerting power um you
[53:00] know these sorts of things and there's
[53:03] an incredible piece that comes from
[53:05] knowing that one is in the correct Place
[53:07] both profession interpersonally in
[53:09] relation to oneself but also in the
[53:11] context of one's peer peer group it's
[53:14] kind of yeah this is where I belong
[53:16] because trying to gain power when one is
[53:19] trying to move to a position that isn't
[53:20] right for them or in a way that isn't
[53:22] right for them just seems so
[53:24] energetically costly seems like a waste
[53:26] of a life frankly right right you know
[53:28] trying to gather resources simply to to
[53:30] have them to give the illusion of power
[53:33] but then being afraid of losing them
[53:35] just sounds like a recipe for for misery
[53:37] as you pointed out you know whereas
[53:39] figuring out where am I most powerful in
[53:41] the benevolent sense of the word that
[53:44] that that seems like a good a good
[53:46] Pursuit well it's connecting up to to
[53:48] Mastery again and finding your life's
[53:50] purpose you know I I I knew when I was
[53:53] young that I couldn't exert physical
[53:55] power because I was a skinny little runt
[53:59] and I was I wasn't bullied but people
[54:00] would kind of pick on me etc etc so I
[54:04] veered towards intellectual Pursuits
[54:07] where I could have power and in the end
[54:09] you know you might have been a jock and
[54:11] you might have done well in high school
[54:12] but haha Look at me now I'm not saying
[54:15] that it's a beautiful thing that that's
[54:16] but that's part of human nature the
[54:18] desire to actually you know prove
[54:20] yourself and find that Niche that you
[54:23] that you belong to so you don't have
[54:25] that kind of hum that sense of
[54:27] inferiority which Alfred Adler the
[54:30] psychologist describes very eloquently
[54:33] so a lot of it is kind of compensating
[54:36] when you're a child for things that are
[54:38] your weaknesses and finding what you're
[54:40] so good at that you do have that power
[54:42] and people can't bully you right and you
[54:45] you're you're like now a famous
[54:47] neuroscientist whereas they're like who
[54:49] knows what they're doing kind of thing
[54:51] so power definitely is connected in some
[54:53] way to that inner sense of what you were
[54:56] meant to do and you feel it with the
[54:58] with the ease and the connection that
[55:00] comes from it right so I can honestly
[55:04] say that my dislike of working for other
[55:07] people and office politics and egos I
[55:10] now have a of an existence where I don't
[55:12] have to deal with any of that and I'm so
[55:15] blessed and I wake up every morning and
[55:16] I pray to God thank God I I found this
[55:19] because it's it's the perfect lifestyle
[55:21] for me and you're are can be accurately
[55:25] described as an intellectual be Beast so
[55:27] it's um and which is like a compliment
[55:30] right um we hear the word beast and we
[55:32] think uh you know a Ferocious Beast
[55:34] trying to harm others but I'm happy
[55:36] being a beast yeah you know so I think
[55:38] finding where we can be a beast you know
[55:40] and and for some people that's painting
[55:41] or or yeah gardening or whatever it
[55:43] might be um I think is again ties back
[55:47] to the these issues of or this quest of
[55:49] for
[55:51] Mastery seduction is also a very loaded
[55:53] word right it's even more uglier than
[55:56] power
[55:57] because seduction right seduction kind
[55:59] of drips with uh the idea that somebody
[56:03] is
[56:04] tricking someone else into doing
[56:06] something that they otherwise would not
[56:08] want to do but seduction is both our
[56:13] propensity to do it and to have it done
[56:15] to us is hardwired into our nervous
[56:18] system and has a lot to do with the
[56:19] hypothalamus and a bunch of other areas
[56:21] that I won't Bor us with the
[56:22] nomenclature but um seduction to me
[56:27] implies some sort of exchange I suppose
[56:28] we could seduce ourselves through denial
[56:30] or convincing ourselves that of of
[56:33] something but more often than not when
[56:35] we talk about seduction we're talking
[56:36] about an interaction between two or more
[56:38] people so um what are some of the core
[56:42] principles of Seduction and and if you
[56:45] care to play um Anthropologist a bit um
[56:49] and a neuroscientist I I would invite
[56:51] that why do you think we have neural
[56:54] circuits in our brain that allow us to
[56:56] seduce and be
[56:57] seduced well um I don't know how if if
[57:00] I'm if I'm being kind of an armchair
[57:03] intellectual here but my my theory is
[57:06] some of it has to go back to social um
[57:10] events long in our prehistory which have
[57:12] to do with
[57:14] taboos and Society was initially kind of
[57:17] organized by a series of tabos right
[57:21] most notably the taboo on incest and
[57:24] what happened this is just not my theory
[57:26] it's the theory of the malanowski
[57:28] malanowski is I pronounce it um that the
[57:31] moment a taboo enters the human brain
[57:35] like you're not supposed to sleep with
[57:36] this woman the desire arises inside of
[57:40] you to actually sleep with that woman
[57:42] the the the sense of no the sense that
[57:44] this is prohibited stirs the desire
[57:47] stirs the contrary impulses in humans
[57:50] and we can be very um what's the word
[57:54] perverse creatures right so if you've
[57:57] ever tried to suppress a thought you
[57:59] realize that it keeps coming up keeps
[58:02] coming up you can't suppress it don't
[58:04] think of an elephant Andrew whatever you
[58:06] do don't think of an elephant you're
[58:08] thinking of it because you can't help it
[58:09] right the idea that you're not supposed
[58:11] to desire this person stirs that actual
[58:14] desire so I believe the sense of
[58:17] something being taboo and transgressive
[58:20] is the ultimate kind of origin of our
[58:23] desire for seduction but seduction in
[58:26] involves
[58:27] vulnerability it involves somebody gets
[58:30] inside somebody gets under our skin
[58:34] right and to do that we have to let them
[58:36] in so the person being seduced is in
[58:38] some ways to a degree complicit because
[58:41] if you just put up a wall and you said
[58:44] no I I'm not going to be seduced nothing
[58:47] will happen but you have a vulnerability
[58:50] you're letting that person into your
[58:52] psyche Into Your Inner Space the
[58:55] Paradigm for that Early Childhood so
[59:00] Freud talks a lot about this I don't
[59:01] know if people still believe in Freud
[59:03] anymore but I certainly do okay
[59:05] absolutely a genius of both Psychology
[59:08] and Physiology wrong about a lot of
[59:10] things did a lot of things he shouldn't
[59:11] have done I let's acknowledge that I
[59:13] think everyone would agree that sleeping
[59:15] with your patients and being a cocaine
[59:17] addict bad ideas but at the same time he
[59:20] had an absolute like near Supernatural
[59:23] levels of insight and Brilliance into
[59:25] human nature sleep with patience I
[59:27] believe he did um but if I just if I
[59:30] just threw that on him without him doing
[59:31] it then you know uh forgive me he
[59:33] certainly had emotional attachments to
[59:35] his patients that he shouldn't have had
[59:37] I don't know if he slept with them he
[59:39] very well might have but his idea was
[59:42] that the child is seduced by the parent
[59:46] you're in extremely vulnerable position
[59:48] right your life depends on them and
[59:50] they're seducing you with their energy
[59:52] you're letting them in right and that
[59:55] kind of creates a pattern pattern for
[59:56] the rest of your life and so for
[1:00:00] instance the feeling of being carried by
[1:00:03] your father and just being taken around
[1:00:06] physically is a form of Seduction
[1:00:09] because you don't know what he's going
[1:00:11] to do to you you're very excited you
[1:00:13] want that surprise right and to me it's
[1:00:16] related to the seduction of a story
[1:00:19] stories are very seducing to us we don't
[1:00:21] know where they're taking us we don't
[1:00:23] know what the next chapter is what's
[1:00:25] going to happen to this character or not
[1:00:27] the surprise lowers our resistance and
[1:00:30] opens our mind up to what's going to
[1:00:32] happen next is a form of Seduction fairy
[1:00:35] tales the stories you were reading as a
[1:00:37] child your interactions with your
[1:00:39] parents they're deeply deeply ingrained
[1:00:42] in you you cannot be seduced unless you
[1:00:44] are vulnerable right and so I like to
[1:00:48] switch it around and get out of the
[1:00:51] negative connotations being vulnerable
[1:00:54] is actually a positive trait
[1:00:57] I think a lot of people now in the world
[1:00:58] today because things are so harsh and
[1:01:00] invasive that people have become too
[1:01:04] invulnerable they don't want to let
[1:01:05] anything in right and this now infects
[1:01:09] their relationships with other people
[1:01:11] they don't want to be influenced they
[1:01:13] they want to be strong inside of
[1:01:14] themselves they're afraid of giving in
[1:01:16] to the other person of surrendering to
[1:01:19] their influence but it's actually a
[1:01:21] delightful feeling to surrender to the
[1:01:23] power of another person and then reverse
[1:01:26] that charge and have them surrender to
[1:01:28] your power so when I'm reading a writer
[1:01:32] and sometimes uh they completely seduce
[1:01:36] me like friederick nid is one of my
[1:01:38] favorite writers I let go of everything
[1:01:41] I let him enter my brain and I'm
[1:01:43] completely seduced I let him lead me
[1:01:45] along but then I encounter writers that
[1:01:47] I don't like at all I I'll mention one
[1:01:51] you know probably not a good thing but
[1:01:53] Steven Pinker I don't like Steven Pinker
[1:01:55] I find him really annoying okay um but I
[1:01:59] forc myself to try and find a way to be
[1:02:01] seduced by him to let him into my brain
[1:02:03] to see where he's coming from to open
[1:02:06] myself to the possibility that he could
[1:02:08] be correct so vulnerability letting
[1:02:11] people into your mental space is a form
[1:02:13] of intelligence it's a it's kind of an
[1:02:16] emotional and an intellectual
[1:02:17] intelligence and forgive me for
[1:02:19] interrupting but I think it also implies
[1:02:21] a level of confidence because empathy or
[1:02:24] allowing oneself to be vulnerable to the
[1:02:26] point where you're seduced by something
[1:02:28] um by
[1:02:30] definition if you're choosing to do it
[1:02:33] uh implies that you also have the
[1:02:35] confidence that you can get back to
[1:02:36] yourself afterward right that you're not
[1:02:38] going to get lost in the circumstances
[1:02:40] you're not going to be hijacked to the
[1:02:42] point of no return right or in some way
[1:02:44] that's detrimental to you so it it's um
[1:02:48] it I'm sounding really nerdy here it's a
[1:02:50] it's cinear with with confidence in many
[1:02:52] ways sure like take my mind and take it
[1:02:55] where you will because I know I can come
[1:02:57] back at any time right right and the
[1:02:59] same thing in a physical seduction in a
[1:03:01] romantic sense right you're opening
[1:03:04] yourself up to the charm to the energy
[1:03:06] of the other person but if they start
[1:03:09] displaying dark energy and you see that
[1:03:11] they're abusive or something is wrong
[1:03:13] you have the ability to retreat ah well
[1:03:15] there it gets tricky because very tricky
[1:03:17] well because the attachment systems
[1:03:19] which are also rooted in childhood um
[1:03:22] oftentimes can overwhelm one's ability
[1:03:24] to recover oneself like to I mean so I
[1:03:27] mean how many if I had a dollar for
[1:03:29] every time someone in that I knew in my
[1:03:31] life saying like you know I know they're
[1:03:32] bad for me but I just can't like we just
[1:03:35] can't seem to disengage like that you
[1:03:37] hear about that all the time I mean you
[1:03:39] see court cases about this that are
[1:03:40] public and you know you just go why
[1:03:41] didn't they just walk away from one
[1:03:43] another well because once those
[1:03:44] attachment systems are locked in it
[1:03:47] almost becomes in a and here
[1:03:48] metaphorically speaking like a parent
[1:03:50] child relationship like you can't
[1:03:51] suddenly decide your parents weren't
[1:03:53] your parents simply because you know
[1:03:55] better now right you are forever
[1:03:57] stricken with the reality that they were
[1:03:59] and they had an influence and I think
[1:04:01] that that attachment system is um is a
[1:04:04] is a force that tugs pretty hard yeah
[1:04:07] and um a lot of women have written to me
[1:04:10] since the Art of Seduction sort of
[1:04:13] saying that their boyfriend or husband
[1:04:15] was applying some of these tactics on
[1:04:17] them and it was very painful and they
[1:04:20] were kind of a little bit angry at me
[1:04:21] for for it but then they kind of
[1:04:23] realized that they it wasn't they didn't
[1:04:25] learn it really from my book it was
[1:04:27] already kind of wired in them but that
[1:04:29] reading about these tactics and these
[1:04:31] strategies actually helped them to
[1:04:34] recognize what their husband or
[1:04:35] boyfriend was doing to them the
[1:04:37] manipulation and the games that were
[1:04:39] being played do men write to you and
[1:04:41] talk about the seductive adornments that
[1:04:43] women have used to to um bring them into
[1:04:45] relationship as well or are you
[1:04:47] typically hearing from women I mostly
[1:04:49] hear from women complaining about men
[1:04:52] and and and how they've abused them and
[1:04:53] how they used I see some of these
[1:04:56] some of the strategies I I don't deny
[1:04:59] have a slightly nefarious Edge to them
[1:05:01] because I didn't want to write a book
[1:05:03] about Seduction That doesn't have that
[1:05:05] taboo element because I say seduction
[1:05:07] involves the taboo and I didn't want to
[1:05:09] I didn't want to censor myself but
[1:05:11] female toale seduction clearly also
[1:05:14] exists less of I acknowledge that it's
[1:05:17] um less often is it physically abusive
[1:05:19] um but right I mean from an early age
[1:05:22] both boys and girls men and women are
[1:05:25] coached by Society on the sorts of uh
[1:05:29] seductive tactics and and adornments
[1:05:31] right I mean everything from makeup
[1:05:33] perfume hairstyles cars watches jewelry
[1:05:35] um expression power displays of any kind
[1:05:39] um I mean that stuff the world's filled
[1:05:40] with that stuff yeah but men are
[1:05:42] generally kind of happy when a woman
[1:05:44] seduces them right they're unless
[1:05:46] they're after their money or something
[1:05:48] like that which happens but generally
[1:05:50] the sense you know I talk about this in
[1:05:53] in the first chapter about Sirens which
[1:05:55] I say is the quintessence essential
[1:05:56] archetype of the female
[1:05:58] seductress the the kind of half human
[1:06:01] half bird creature on a rock singing so
[1:06:03] beautifully that you have to jump in the
[1:06:05] water and then they kill you and so the
[1:06:07] idea is that men want to let go because
[1:06:11] men have to be so in control so powerful
[1:06:13] they have to project this image they
[1:06:15] have a secret desire to let go and be
[1:06:18] almost dominated by a very powerful
[1:06:20] woman a lot of men have that and I talk
[1:06:22] about some of the most powerful men in
[1:06:25] in history jul jius Caesar Mark Anthony
[1:06:28] um Joe dagio who all these men very
[1:06:32] masculine men who fallen for very
[1:06:35] feminine siren-like women and been
[1:06:37] completely dominated by them and they
[1:06:40] actually kind of enjoy the process
[1:06:41] because it's like a sense of I can let
[1:06:44] go I can enter this totally s sensual
[1:06:47] physical world and it it's extremely
[1:06:50] pleasing it's like another realm outside
[1:06:52] of my kind of cold masculine world you
[1:06:55] know so I don't really get men
[1:06:57] complaining too much about women who've
[1:06:59] seduced them honestly it's usually the
[1:07:02] other way
[1:07:03] around I'd like to take a quick break
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[1:08:03] tracker.com huberman I've heard before
[1:08:07] um and I promise this is not an original
[1:08:09] idea that I'm pretending to have heard
[1:08:10] elsewhere that my friend asked me to ask
[1:08:12] sort of question that in all sexual
[1:08:16] exchanges there's a power exchange
[1:08:18] definitely um maybe you could elaborate
[1:08:20] on that um because as you were
[1:08:22] describing some of the seductive power
[1:08:23] dynamics that exist uh a phrase that
[1:08:25] I've heard before uh came to mind um
[1:08:28] that at first made me chuckle but then
[1:08:29] made me think um quite deeply about this
[1:08:32] issue of the relationship between sexual
[1:08:34] and power dynamics which is this notion
[1:08:35] of topping from the bottom you know if
[1:08:38] one is giving someone else the
[1:08:40] impression that they are more powerful
[1:08:43] by virtue of the word giving they
[1:08:45] actually hold some power right power is
[1:08:47] can be given or taken but um often times
[1:08:52] uh seductive exchanges and sexual
[1:08:54] exchanges and romantic exchanges in
[1:08:56] particular are about both people
[1:09:02] uh buying into a ute a temporary
[1:09:05] illusion let's pretend that you're in
[1:09:08] charge when actually I'm in charge okay
[1:09:10] but I know that you think that you're in
[1:09:12] charge okay let's just pretend none of
[1:09:14] that exists and just do X right and I
[1:09:17] think this is another example of covert
[1:09:19] contracts and it's one that actually can
[1:09:22] potentially create a lot of problems
[1:09:24] post Hawk right um but I think the
[1:09:27] relationship between sex romance and
[1:09:30] power is an important area to explore in
[1:09:33] the context of this well I wrote The Art
[1:09:36] of Seduction with the idea that it was
[1:09:38] an art invented by women it was invented
[1:09:41] by women who had no power essentially
[1:09:44] socially politically in any sense of the
[1:09:46] word in in in domestically right and but
[1:09:50] the one power that they could that they
[1:09:52] could wield over a man was through sex
[1:09:55] some physical attraction and so they
[1:09:57] develop this art of kind of luring a man
[1:10:00] into their world through various
[1:10:02] theatrical effects Cleopatra being kind
[1:10:05] of the archetype of this and then luring
[1:10:10] the the powerful man into this world he
[1:10:12] has the illusion that he's the one
[1:10:14] pursuing her but in fact she is the one
[1:10:17] controlling the dynamic so often times
[1:10:21] the person who appears to be the weaker
[1:10:23] one in the relationship who's not not
[1:10:26] doing the pursuing is actually inviting
[1:10:28] the pursuing is actually leading the
[1:10:30] other person on so there's a lot of kind
[1:10:33] of appearance games going on and you can
[1:10:35] never really figure out who exactly is
[1:10:38] in control of the dynamic because one
[1:10:40] person is
[1:10:42] like allowing the other person to lead
[1:10:45] them on but the fact that you're
[1:10:46] allowing them is a degree of power is a
[1:10:49] degree of control right so it's very
[1:10:52] hard to figure out and sex and power and
[1:10:55] romantic relationships are very much
[1:10:58] intertwined in US physically emotionally
[1:11:01] neurologically you can't avoid it right
[1:11:04] and so I think it's kind of dishonest to
[1:11:07] say that that none of that exists that
[1:11:09] it's like that there's some egalitarian
[1:11:12] Paradise out of there when it it's
[1:11:15] really not wired in us for that kind of
[1:11:18] relationship there's a recent scientific
[1:11:21] publication SL factoid that I want to
[1:11:23] share with you in this context because
[1:11:25] I'd like your thoughts on it uh David
[1:11:27] Anderson who's a phenomenal
[1:11:29] neurobiologist he's been a guest on this
[1:11:30] podcast before he's a professor at
[1:11:32] Caltech studies um basically the
[1:11:35] functions of the hypothalamus so okay
[1:11:37] things like uh aggression mating and and
[1:11:39] things of that sort um and does it so it
[1:11:42] in with great detail he's a virtuoso of
[1:11:45] the hypothalamus and he published a
[1:11:47] paper two years ago showing that indeed
[1:11:52] there are neural circuits in the brain
[1:11:53] of animals and presum presumably in
[1:11:56] humans as well that control sexual
[1:11:58] mounting Behavior but that there is
[1:12:00] actually a separate circuit for
[1:12:03] purely nonsexual mounting and physical
[1:12:07] power over that's expressed in animals
[1:12:09] and anyone that's ever owned a dog and
[1:12:10] gone to the dog park we'll see same-sex
[1:12:13] mounting between dogs or mounting
[1:12:16] between dogs that has apparently um no
[1:12:20] sexual end point yeah and in exploring
[1:12:23] this literature and some talking to dve
[1:12:25] about it it's very clear that there are
[1:12:27] neural circuits um that have everything
[1:12:30] to do with essentially one animal of a
[1:12:32] species getting on top of the other
[1:12:33] animal usually from behind often times
[1:12:36] scruffing or biting the back of the neck
[1:12:39] and saying I control you it's a it's
[1:12:41] often done in a playful context
[1:12:42] especially between animals not always
[1:12:44] aggressive but there's a certain element
[1:12:46] of aggressive to it but it essentially
[1:12:48] says I decide whether or not you are
[1:12:51] mobile or not for this moment and that
[1:12:53] it and this is very important I want to
[1:12:54] emphasize this this is a circuit that is
[1:12:56] entirely separate from all of the
[1:12:59] reflexes associated with sexual behavior
[1:13:01] in males and females I find this to be
[1:13:03] fascinating um and because we hear about
[1:13:05] power over right and we hear about power
[1:13:08] and we think about physical power over
[1:13:10] but the idea that something as primitive
[1:13:13] as mounting just like something as
[1:13:15] primitive as biting or as
[1:13:17] striking has its own unique set of
[1:13:20] circuits in the brain I think
[1:13:23] substantiates every everything that you
[1:13:24] put in uh
[1:13:26] in your books about power and maybe even
[1:13:28] seduction as well so as I just kind of
[1:13:30] toss that out there for consideration I
[1:13:32] I I wonder um if you have any
[1:13:34] Reflections on it if not um feel free to
[1:13:37] just say I don't but of course but to me
[1:13:40] this was a really important Discovery
[1:13:42] because I think everyone looks at
[1:13:43] mounting behavior and says oh that has
[1:13:45] to be sexual and sometimes it's oh I see
[1:13:48] what you mean but but it's not that
[1:13:50] there's a there seem to be a host of
[1:13:52] neural circuits in the brain that are
[1:13:53] are really about finding who's on top
[1:13:57] literally that has nothing to do with
[1:14:00] sex yeah I'm sure that's true I've never
[1:14:03] I've never I've never um read anything
[1:14:04] about that but I can say that um I wrote
[1:14:08] a chapter in in my new book about love
[1:14:12] and that's a different thing than than
[1:14:14] seduction and I was trying to come up
[1:14:16] with an idea of love that does have an
[1:14:19] element of equality that doesn't have
[1:14:22] this power Dynamic going on in it of
[1:14:25] that and um you know kind of like the
[1:14:28] antithesis of my Art of Seduction where
[1:14:30] I'm almost contradicting myself and I
[1:14:33] was going into the into the biology of
[1:14:36] it and even into the physics of it so
[1:14:39] there is a famous uh French biologist
[1:14:41] whose Name Escapes me I'm sorry I can't
[1:14:44] remember from the 20s and 30s um and he
[1:14:48] was studying
[1:14:49] parium and he found he was studying them
[1:14:52] you know they there in these ponds Etc
[1:14:54] and he said that there was these moments
[1:14:56] where these single celled organisms were
[1:14:59] suddenly coupling they were all joining
[1:15:02] together just one to one and they were
[1:15:04] absorbing the membrane of one inside the
[1:15:06] other and then they would like go then
[1:15:09] once one couple did that all the parami
[1:15:11] started joining up together then they
[1:15:13] would sink to the bottom of the
[1:15:15] pond and parium don't reproduce through
[1:15:19] sex they reproduce through dividing
[1:15:22] themselves right self-
[1:15:24] reproduction and so he was saying that
[1:15:27] the desire to couple to to to connect to
[1:15:31] someone so deeply where you absorb one
[1:15:33] is absorbed in the other is biologically
[1:15:36] wired into US goes back millions and
[1:15:39] millions and millions of years and it's
[1:15:41] a desire essentially a biological desire
[1:15:45] for love right and it's an energy that
[1:15:48] permeates all all the it's it's not just
[1:15:51] about power and hierarchies and that he
[1:15:54] was showing other creatures that had
[1:15:56] something similar going on and you know
[1:15:59] in physics we talk about
[1:16:03] entanglement and we also talk about um
[1:16:06] you know matter if matter isn't absor
[1:16:09] isn't um opposed by a lot of ktic energy
[1:16:12] it joins together I mean particles join
[1:16:14] together to form matter etc etc so
[1:16:17] there's something in the universe that's
[1:16:18] trying to connect things to each other
[1:16:20] so there's this this kind of energy that
[1:16:23] exists in the world where we have have a
[1:16:25] deep need to connect to
[1:16:27] somebody with outside of those power
[1:16:30] dynamics right where there's a degree of
[1:16:33] equality where we're drawn to each other
[1:16:36] and we let go of the ego games we let go
[1:16:39] of the playing we kind of surmount our
[1:16:42] own physiology our own
[1:16:45] hypothalamus and we engage in this I
[1:16:47] call it love Sublime and it involves the
[1:16:51] physical part the sexual part is the
[1:16:53] trigger for it because when you have sex
[1:16:55] with someone your body is suddenly
[1:16:58] permeable to their energy in a way that
[1:17:00] you cannot control it releases all kinds
[1:17:02] of of chemicals in the brain that are
[1:17:05] very powerful and often times that sense
[1:17:08] is too powerful and you react and and
[1:17:11] you're afraid of it and you pull back
[1:17:13] but if you don't react and you go
[1:17:15] further then the mind also becomes
[1:17:18] permeable to the other person and their
[1:17:20] energy and their desire and so then it
[1:17:24] kind of creates a SP spiring effect
[1:17:26] where the physical and the mental
[1:17:27] connection reaches the state that I call
[1:17:30] love Sublime now it's an ideal it
[1:17:33] doesn't really exists that much out
[1:17:34] there in the world today but there are
[1:17:37] stories in history that illustrate it
[1:17:39] and I believe that is a biological
[1:17:41] necessity for us to feel a deep deep
[1:17:44] sense of connection we normally ascribe
[1:17:47] that to religion to God Etc but I
[1:17:50] maintain the essence of love the model
[1:17:53] for for love is between to human beings
[1:17:57] straight or homosexual doesn't matter
[1:17:59] and that feeling of surmounting our own
[1:18:03] neurology our own system and and
[1:18:06] entering this zone is deeply deeply
[1:18:09] satisfying we all want it and it has to
[1:18:12] involve letting go of the power dynamics
[1:18:15] letting and everything being equal it's
[1:18:17] not that the other person is exactly
[1:18:20] like you you recognize their difference
[1:18:22] but but as far as being worthy of
[1:18:24] attention
[1:18:25] being worthy and
[1:18:27] respected you leave all that other stuff
[1:18:29] outside so there is a Zone that's
[1:18:32] possible that's outside this power
[1:18:34] dyamic that we're talking about I'm
[1:18:36] excited that you're writing about this
[1:18:38] uh so this is for your next book yeah
[1:18:40] I'm very excited I couldn't help but
[1:18:43] think of some of the parallels between
[1:18:45] what you describe and what we're
[1:18:46] observing nowadays in the landscape of
[1:18:49] politics and social dynamics where
[1:18:51] clearly um there is no setting aside of
[1:18:55] egos people feel both sides feel
[1:18:57] attacked everyone in between feels
[1:18:59] confused like why do I have to pick a
[1:19:01] side um and there seems to be no hint of
[1:19:05] a future where people are setting down
[1:19:09] their swords it which means if we were
[1:19:11] to go with your earlier definition which
[1:19:12] I like a lot that um nobody feels safe
[1:19:16] enough to be
[1:19:18] vulnerable enough to um to allow the
[1:19:22] union of of people to occur which is
[1:19:25] just a way a way of rewarding you know a
[1:19:27] bunch of other things um and not nearly
[1:19:29] as eloquently as as you described it but
[1:19:32] if setting aside of power dynamics and
[1:19:35] making oneself vulnerable is is the key
[1:19:37] to accessing love in the Romantic
[1:19:39] context surely but also in the um
[1:19:42] societal context I mean what are the
[1:19:44] channels for that I mean I suppose there
[1:19:47] is the argument not mine that everyone
[1:19:48] should just take a boatload of
[1:19:50] psychedelics and see the
[1:19:51] interconnectedness of things but that
[1:19:52] seems like an unrealistic route I I just
[1:19:55] don't see that being you know um you
[1:19:57] know 12th grade graduation um curriculum
[1:20:01] um nor do I think it would be healthy I
[1:20:04] to be clear I think that you we'd end up
[1:20:05] with a lot of expression of of problems
[1:20:08] there um but short of a magic substance
[1:20:11] that could increase feelings of uh
[1:20:12] connectedness among everyone
[1:20:14] simultaneously um how are you going to
[1:20:16] save Humanity Robert well um CU I'm I'm
[1:20:20] concerned about young people in
[1:20:21] particular with hookup culture with
[1:20:23] pornography Etc Etc it's kind of
[1:20:26] rewiring the human brain and we're
[1:20:28] losing what I was just describing and I
[1:20:31] see a particularly a lot of young people
[1:20:33] and I don't blame them because they've
[1:20:35] grown up in a world that's very chaotic
[1:20:37] and very hostile could could I say I
[1:20:40] think it's um and not to be nitpicky
[1:20:42] here but I I love what you just said I
[1:20:44] think in my mind it's hi things like
[1:20:46] that are hijacking the hardwiring of the
[1:20:48] brain okay um and I'm just again forgive
[1:20:52] me my the audience is probably going
[1:20:54] can't really rewire brain like that well
[1:20:56] I think we can expand and rewire Upon
[1:20:58] Our hard wirring but so much of what you
[1:21:00] you talk about in your books is about
[1:21:02] finding one's Essence but then also what
[1:21:04] I love about your book so much among
[1:21:06] many other things is that it's about
[1:21:08] that dance between the hard wirring and
[1:21:10] and the possible of through effort so
[1:21:12] anyway forgive me for for being it's
[1:21:14] very accurate um so yeah what how do you
[1:21:17] get us out of this well you're putting a
[1:21:19] big burden on me I am but I think you're
[1:21:21] up to it you know um well I try to do it
[1:21:24] in this chapter because I wanted to
[1:21:27] seduce the reader into the idea that
[1:21:29] this is something extremely pleasurable
[1:21:32] and extremely healthy and the feeling of
[1:21:35] being vulnerable is a very positive
[1:21:38] attribute that will infect not just your
[1:21:41] romantic relationships but will infect
[1:21:44] you mentally so creative people are
[1:21:48] extremely vulnerable they're extremely
[1:21:50] vulnerable to ideas they're extremely
[1:21:52] vulnerable to the environment and
[1:21:54] closing yourself off into your own ego
[1:21:57] into yourself so the chapter is called
[1:21:59] Escape the Prison of the ego and you're
[1:22:02] you're kind of trapped inside of
[1:22:03] yourself and your own thoughts and your
[1:22:05] own desires and it's like a prison it's
[1:22:07] enclosing you and you want to escape
[1:22:09] somehow and you escape through drugs you
[1:22:11] escape through porn but it doesn't lead
[1:22:13] to actually escaping you want to be able
[1:22:16] to let go of the self and get out of
[1:22:18] this this prison that you're in right
[1:22:21] and so it's a desire that that we all
[1:22:24] have and so I wanted to frame it as this
[1:22:26] incredibly positive Dynamic that you can
[1:22:29] engage in and the ability to be
[1:22:32] vulnerable to other people to open
[1:22:34] yourself up and to say that yeah they
[1:22:38] might hurt me but I'm strong enough to
[1:22:41] take it and if they hurt me I'll learn
[1:22:42] from it and I'll rebound and I know
[1:22:44] that's a bit naive on my part but I want
[1:22:47] you to at least have that feeling
[1:22:49] because a lot of young people write to
[1:22:50] me and they say I I can't fall in love
[1:22:53] anymore I can't don't like that feeling
[1:22:56] I it makes the loss of control is too
[1:22:58] much you know and and a lot of that
[1:23:01] their behavior patterns are in creating
[1:23:03] this sense of control which you can have
[1:23:06] when you're locked inside of yourself uh
[1:23:08] hence over indulgence in pornography
[1:23:11] yeah and masturbation
[1:23:13] Etc as a way to avoid the you know the
[1:23:17] understandable fear about inter
[1:23:19] relational Dynamics yeah yeah so you
[1:23:22] know when you're young you're you're
[1:23:24] idealistic at least a lot of young
[1:23:25] people are and you have these dreams and
[1:23:28] these hopes and to let go of this
[1:23:31] possibility which is deeply pleasurable
[1:23:34] and deeply therapeutic to the human
[1:23:36] animal as a social animal it's like the
[1:23:39] highest form of interaction that we can
[1:23:42] have so my strategy in that chapter was
[1:23:45] to paint such a wonderful portrayal of
[1:23:48] the pleasures that are awaiting You by
[1:23:50] letting go of your defenses of letting
[1:23:53] go of all of your natural or resistance
[1:23:55] factors and opening yourself up to other
[1:23:58] people is is a key to not just a
[1:24:03] romantic relationship but to Career
[1:24:05] Success to mental energy to creativity
[1:24:08] to being open in general right and
[1:24:12] so I don't think I could have a a wide
[1:24:16] you know a huge impact but we'll see
[1:24:18] when the when the book comes out but I'm
[1:24:20] advocating that sense of opening
[1:24:23] yourself up to the universe to the
[1:24:25] Cosmos itself as an energy that
[1:24:28] permeates the world and so that you
[1:24:31] don't want to the feeling of being
[1:24:33] closed inside of your ego inside of your
[1:24:36] yourself I want to make it so you feel
[1:24:38] the pain of that because you don't
[1:24:41] really feel the pain of it you feel like
[1:24:43] it's comfortable for you but I want to
[1:24:46] make it clear to you that it's not
[1:24:47] comfortable it's deeply deeply painful
[1:24:50] and it's disconnecting you from some of
[1:24:52] the best experiences you can have in
[1:24:54] life
[1:24:55] so I have that strategy the only other
[1:24:57] hope I have is in the human Spirit
[1:25:00] itself so a lot of this is being caused
[1:25:03] by social media I believe right um and
[1:25:08] uh and the instant and the the kind of
[1:25:10] immediate gratification we can get in so
[1:25:12] many ways and my hope is that young
[1:25:17] people get fed up and get dis disgusted
[1:25:21] with all this disconnection and
[1:25:22] alienation in their life and that they
[1:25:25] hunger from actually something more
[1:25:26] communal more interactive more real as
[1:25:30] opposed to Virtual and so that the human
[1:25:33] Spirit can't be completely squashed by
[1:25:36] technology Etc so I have that hope
[1:25:39] because we've gone through these Cycles
[1:25:41] before in history where people have
[1:25:43] become very invulnerable and very locked
[1:25:46] and closed and suddenly there's an
[1:25:48] explosion a creative explosion like in
[1:25:50] the 1960s like in the 1920s like in 18th
[1:25:55] century Europe with the Casanova and the
[1:25:57] where seduction reached its kind of
[1:25:58] apigy Etc so it has kind of swung back
[1:26:02] and forth between these moments where
[1:26:03] humans get incredibly closed and bitter
[1:26:06] and partisan and everything's conflict
[1:26:08] and everyone's divisive Etc and suddenly
[1:26:11] goes in the opposite
[1:26:13] direction I I have hope in that
[1:26:15] possibility and I structured my chapter
[1:26:18] to perhaps sweep that a little bit along
[1:26:21] that tie and see if I can have any
[1:26:23] effect well I I think what you just
[1:26:25] described in conversations like it and
[1:26:28] that stem from it are likely to have a
[1:26:30] tremendous effect I think it's exactly
[1:26:32] what's needed now and um certainly I'll
[1:26:35] be uh to amplify that message I I agree
[1:26:39] with everything you said and not just
[1:26:40] because you're sitting here as a guest
[1:26:41] uh on this podcast but because um it's
[1:26:45] clear to me that while power dynamics
[1:26:47] and seduction are um wired into our
[1:26:50] human relations since the beginning of
[1:26:52] time that we have reached a a a very
[1:26:55] challenging period in our history um
[1:26:58] it's somewhat of a relief to me to know
[1:27:00] that it's happened before but in a very
[1:27:02] different context uh we hear a lot about
[1:27:04] The Swinging back and forth of the
[1:27:05] pendulum uh someone in fact uh Peter AA
[1:27:09] online Physician's brother actually said
[1:27:11] I um so we'll credit him he said no it's
[1:27:14] not a it's not a pendulum that swings
[1:27:15] back and forth unfortunately now it's
[1:27:17] become a wrecking ball so it's swinging
[1:27:18] back and forth and doing damage as it as
[1:27:20] it reaches its um you know its extremes
[1:27:24] and I think that
[1:27:25] um I also look forward to a time where
[1:27:28] people
[1:27:29] um acknowledge that the injustices
[1:27:32] around them and and that have been done
[1:27:34] to them and others and um but somehow
[1:27:36] are able to transcend that and the word
[1:27:38] that I'd like to pick up on there is the
[1:27:40] word justice um it was pointed out to me
[1:27:43] uh by someone I respect very much that
[1:27:45] you know having a sense of justice is a
[1:27:47] is a wonderful and important thing and
[1:27:49] as humans it's important to how we
[1:27:50] structure Society but I do think that a
[1:27:52] lot of the negative things that we see
[1:27:54] out there nowadays are have something to
[1:27:56] do with the availability of uh ready
[1:27:59] availability of pornography high density
[1:28:02] calorie food Etc a bunch of things like
[1:28:04] that but that one of the issues with
[1:28:07] social media because it does have its
[1:28:08] positive aspects but one of the negative
[1:28:10] issues in my mind is that it's a steady
[1:28:13] flow of um examples of Injustice so all
[1:28:17] day long you're just seeing things like
[1:28:18] that that piss you off and that piss
[1:28:20] other people off and for different
[1:28:21] reasons but but what was pointed out to
[1:28:23] me is that one of the key things about a
[1:28:25] sense of Injustice is to be able to
[1:28:26] determine whether or not there's
[1:28:28] anything that you should do about it and
[1:28:31] I think that everyone now feels a bit
[1:28:33] hijacked by all the injustices we see
[1:28:35] because we feel like well we're supposed
[1:28:37] to do something about it but it may be
[1:28:40] that while we can't let every Injustice
[1:28:42] pass that being bombarded all day long
[1:28:45] with things that upset us is hijacking
[1:28:48] our creativity it's distracting us from
[1:28:50] our deeper purpose it's preventing a
[1:28:52] sense of vulnerability that would lead
[1:28:53] to a sense of deep love
[1:28:55] and and on so I don't think it's just
[1:28:56] about the The Lure the tantalizing lures
[1:28:59] of of sex food and um and looking at you
[1:29:03] know bodies and hearing voices on social
[1:29:04] media I think there is some validity to
[1:29:06] that but that it's also that you know
[1:29:09] there's just ample opportunity to go
[1:29:11] down the gravitational pole forces of
[1:29:14] Injustice like H that's so frustrating
[1:29:17] why are they doing that I mean I catch
[1:29:18] myself doing that talking to co-workers
[1:29:20] when I walk in about did you see this
[1:29:21] thing this is crazy what's going on with
[1:29:24] the their crazy when you know as opposed
[1:29:26] to thinking about anything else in that
[1:29:28] moment and I try and yank myself out of
[1:29:30] that but I I think that um you're not
[1:29:33] going to do it alone but I think you
[1:29:34] will play a major role in saving us from
[1:29:36] this because people I do I think because
[1:29:38] people just need to see themselves
[1:29:41] through a different lens and realize
[1:29:43] this is distracting me from who I'm
[1:29:44] supposed to be well a lot of what what
[1:29:47] modern life should involve is the
[1:29:49] ability to ignore certain things so for
[1:29:52] instance I don't know if you know that
[1:29:54] app next door oh right I used to have it
[1:29:57] but then I'd see all the the packages
[1:29:59] being stolen off my neighbor's porches
[1:30:01] in Oakland and then I started enjoying
[1:30:04] living in Oakland less and I love the
[1:30:05] city of Oakland it's got its problems it
[1:30:07] definely has its problems but as an East
[1:30:09] Bay kid you know and went to school out
[1:30:11] there and you know like I have deep love
[1:30:13] for the East Bay and it it's always had
[1:30:15] those problems but when you see stuff
[1:30:16] being stolen on your phone in the middle
[1:30:18] of the night when you wake up it creates
[1:30:20] a sense that like they're out to get my
[1:30:23] stuff right terrible right and so uh I
[1:30:26] have it in my spam filter but I look at
[1:30:28] it and and every headline is people
[1:30:31] stealing somebody broke into somebody's
[1:30:34] house this P dog bit me this's this
[1:30:37] rapid dog going around there's this
[1:30:38] homeless person that's yelling and
[1:30:40] attacking people on and on and on I feel
[1:30:42] like I'm living in this neighborhood
[1:30:44] it's like Beirut or something in the
[1:30:46] 1980s I can't even walk out my door I
[1:30:48] just got I don't look at next door
[1:30:50] anymore I just ignore it I don't open it
[1:30:53] ever because because I know that that
[1:30:55] they're designed algorithmically to put
[1:30:58] that in front of you every single time
[1:31:00] so that you click on it because that's
[1:31:02] we respond to that kind of stuff
[1:31:03] naturally we can't help it so you have
[1:31:06] to be able to shut that stuff up and
[1:31:09] look at what you can actually control in
[1:31:11] your life so I have this visceral
[1:31:14] dislike of what's going on in Ukraine
[1:31:17] because I was in Ukraine recently and I
[1:31:19] feel I've identified very strongly with
[1:31:22] their struggle right and and it just I
[1:31:25] can't that outrage feeling it just every
[1:31:27] time I read an article about it it just
[1:31:29] drives me crazy so the only thing is I
[1:31:31] stop reading as much as I can I read
[1:31:34] things that are kind of rational and
[1:31:36] intelligent and I send them money and I
[1:31:38] you know I donate as much as I can and I
[1:31:40] help them practically but I don't allow
[1:31:43] myself to get that kind of outraged
[1:31:46] feeling all of the time
[1:31:48] so somebody has to write a book somebody
[1:31:51] has to instruct Us in what to ignore and
[1:31:53] what to act pay attention to so there
[1:31:56] are things that you can control
[1:31:59] injustices that are out there that you
[1:32:01] could control by voting by certain by
[1:32:05] amassing a movement by you know dealing
[1:32:08] with climate change not by trying to
[1:32:11] recycle every little thing in your house
[1:32:13] but actually doing something really much
[1:32:15] more macro in the world you know joining
[1:32:17] a cause there are things you can do and
[1:32:20] that's positive and that's a way of
[1:32:22] channeling that kind of dark energy in
[1:32:24] you for a positive purpose but it's
[1:32:27] totally disruptive and it totally
[1:32:29] distracts you and weakens you and drains
[1:32:31] you of energy to fall into those rabbit
[1:32:34] holes and let them and let yourself fall
[1:32:36] into them so you have to learn the art
[1:32:39] of what to ignore and what not to pay
[1:32:41] attention to and understand that you're
[1:32:43] wired to see those kind of red alert
[1:32:46] buttons on Facebook or on next door
[1:32:49] wherever they are and it it's just it's
[1:32:52] it's negative it's like a candy rush you
[1:32:54] have to avoid it and it's taking us away
[1:32:57] from our purpose which we each have I
[1:32:59] mean I think to me that's the the most
[1:33:01] um delerious aspect unless unless your
[1:33:03] purpose is to organize and be an
[1:33:06] activist people ask me I wrote a lot
[1:33:08] about in my human nature book about the
[1:33:10] shadow side of human nature right and we
[1:33:13] all have it we all have a dark side we
[1:33:15] all have hidden aggression we all have
[1:33:17] feelings of Envy we all have feelings of
[1:33:20] grandiosity we all have aggressive
[1:33:22] impulses how do you deal with it
[1:33:24] and I say the way to deal is to channel
[1:33:26] it into something positive and
[1:33:29] pro-social and that could be putting it
[1:33:31] in your artwork venting that anger and
[1:33:33] that outrage and something that people
[1:33:35] kind of can identify with or it can be
[1:33:37] in organizing something that could be
[1:33:39] your purpose in life and actually doing
[1:33:42] something positive so that's the only
[1:33:44] way that you could actually use that
[1:33:46] energy for some kind of actual life's
[1:33:48] task or purpose you've been discussing
[1:33:52] lately a bit on some of your channels
[1:33:55] about masculine and feminine um let's
[1:33:59] say
[1:34:00] roles um and crisis of the masculine
[1:34:05] feminine dance as well as the crisis of
[1:34:08] masculinity per se crisis of femininity
[1:34:11] per se um do you care to expand on that
[1:34:14] a bit I think um we could probably take
[1:34:18] three four hours to explore all this in
[1:34:20] full um but I was struck by some of the
[1:34:23] things that you said um because I agree
[1:34:25] completely that um just as we are not
[1:34:28] given a road map When we arrive in the
[1:34:29] world as to how to find our purpose I
[1:34:31] think there's also a very conflicted
[1:34:33] road map that's thrown in front of us
[1:34:35] and indeed conflicting multiple road
[1:34:38] maps about what it means to be masculine
[1:34:42] or feminine or some combination of both
[1:34:44] which of course everybody is some
[1:34:46] combination of both just to varying
[1:34:47] degrees well um yeah so men have a
[1:34:51] feminine side to them which if you try
[1:34:53] to repress will come out in other ways
[1:34:56] and women have a masculine side of them
[1:34:59] I think Yung described this very well
[1:35:00] with the anima and the animous which I
[1:35:02] think is is extremely
[1:35:05] real um it's very very confusing times
[1:35:08] for both men and for women right now we
[1:35:11] don't know the roles that there there're
[1:35:14] everything is just so fluid and it's
[1:35:17] very very difficult particularly if
[1:35:18] you're young so young women are getting
[1:35:20] this idea that everything should be
[1:35:24] equal and that women should have and of
[1:35:26] course it's right should have be paid
[1:35:28] the same and should have the same career
[1:35:29] opportunities there should be no
[1:35:31] Prejudice or harassment or anything but
[1:35:33] at the same time on social media it's
[1:35:36] all about looking perfect and looks are
[1:35:38] are incredibly important and if you're
[1:35:40] not hot you're in terrible trouble and a
[1:35:43] lot of young girls are extremely
[1:35:45] confused by this they're getting mixed
[1:35:46] signals right and boys are even in
[1:35:50] perhaps even worse circumstance where
[1:35:52] being masculine is SE is something
[1:35:54] negative so we don't have any ideals out
[1:35:58] there anymore of what what constitutes a
[1:36:02] good positive form of femininity and a
[1:36:05] good positive form of masculinity in
[1:36:07] fact we even think that there shouldn't
[1:36:09] be anything like that there's no such
[1:36:11] thing as being masculine or feminine
[1:36:13] whatever it's very very confusing and so
[1:36:17] you know I I think of of of masculine
[1:36:20] traits that I think are very positive
[1:36:23] that should be out there to kind of
[1:36:25] counteract the sort of Andrew Tate
[1:36:28] seduction that a lot of young men are
[1:36:30] falling for and it's a kind of an inner
[1:36:33] strength where you're sort of in control
[1:36:36] of your emotions you're not invulnerable
[1:36:39] etc etc but um you can take
[1:36:43] criticism you can take PE you know you
[1:36:46] can have moments of failure and you'll
[1:36:47] bounce back but you have a kind of res
[1:36:50] inner resilience and a kind of inner
[1:36:52] strength a kind of a quiet calm that I
[1:36:56] think used to be exemplified in movie
[1:36:58] icons like a Gary Cooper type thing
[1:37:01] right and that kind of sense of inner
[1:37:04] calmness where you're not hysterical
[1:37:06] you're not getting upset about
[1:37:07] everything that happens where you have a
[1:37:09] kind of an inner strength and a
[1:37:11] confidence and you can withstand kind of
[1:37:14] what Ryan holiday talks about a lot
[1:37:15] about with stoicism you can withstand
[1:37:18] all of the hardships in life but you
[1:37:20] have that Citadel within you is a very
[1:37:23] very powerful form of masculinity as
[1:37:25] opposed to it's all about sleeping with
[1:37:28] a lot of women having really fast cars
[1:37:31] you know being abusive and being a bully
[1:37:33] etc etc these are signs of weakness of
[1:37:37] insecurity and to be masculine should be
[1:37:40] a sense of security and inner confidence
[1:37:43] and Inner Strength right and that's what
[1:37:45] we should venerate in our culture and we
[1:37:47] should have icons like that okay um it
[1:37:51] doesn't mean that that there's no role
[1:37:53] for men who are not masculine or have
[1:37:56] more of the feminine virtues that's also
[1:37:58] there's definitely a role for that and
[1:38:00] you know we see a lot of that in all
[1:38:02] sorts of Arenas of life and then there
[1:38:05] should be a positive model for women you
[1:38:09] know where instead of their appearances
[1:38:12] being judged by their appearances and
[1:38:14] having to conform to the ideals of
[1:38:16] what's hot or not it's about being
[1:38:20] incredibly powerful and competent and
[1:38:22] and have expertise and being really
[1:38:24] successful in your career and and as
[1:38:27] opposed to being continually judged by
[1:38:29] your appearances which is very damaging
[1:38:33] so these are terrible times I mean I I
[1:38:37] feel fortunate that I grew up in a time
[1:38:39] where there were these kind of models
[1:38:42] for me to go by and I think of my father
[1:38:45] who who was a very quiet man and he was
[1:38:50] he was just a middle class salesman is
[1:38:52] basically what he was he just sold for
[1:38:55] all his whole life he sold chemical
[1:38:56] supplies for one company um but he was
[1:38:59] very dignified he treated people well he
[1:39:02] was very calm and very quiet but he also
[1:39:05] was very empathetic that was my role
[1:39:08] model for what I think is a good
[1:39:10] masculine energy and I think a lot of
[1:39:13] people just don't have that and they're
[1:39:14] very lost and so I don't know what the
[1:39:17] answer is that I can't really produce
[1:39:19] that out of thin air but I wish I could
[1:39:22] well certainly nowaday is there many
[1:39:24] more um let's say examples and options
[1:39:28] of masculine and feminine qualities out
[1:39:32] there for observation because of social
[1:39:34] media and because of the internet uh and
[1:39:37] as you pointed out before a key feature
[1:39:39] to becoming a functional human being
[1:39:41] especially nowadays is learning what to
[1:39:43] ignore I mean there's an interesting
[1:39:45] idea in the circles around a nutrition
[1:39:48] and health that you know never before in
[1:39:50] human history have human beings been
[1:39:52] able to access such a wide variety of
[1:39:55] foods that are differ from what their
[1:39:57] ancestors ate and I don't even mean
[1:40:00] ancient ancestors I mean if you grew up
[1:40:02] in the Bay Area as I did in the 1970s
[1:40:05] and 80s there were a few ethnic
[1:40:08] restaurants but we ate the same you know
[1:40:11] 15 or 20 Foods over and over again right
[1:40:14] and then eventually that exploded into
[1:40:16] dozens of options and more and fusion
[1:40:19] foods and all sorts of things and so
[1:40:21] there is this idea in the nutrition
[1:40:22] communities that we are not hardwired to
[1:40:25] um think about and discern so many
[1:40:27] different food options that you know
[1:40:29] that's um and to taste so many distinct
[1:40:32] flavors whereas before people one
[1:40:34] portion of the planet or country ate
[1:40:35] generally one way in a given season if
[1:40:38] there's seasonality etc etc in a similar
[1:40:40] vein um we are now and children too are
[1:40:45] now um overwhelmed with a number of
[1:40:47] different options of how to express
[1:40:48] oneself both masculinity and femininity
[1:40:51] but generally speaking and so question
[1:40:54] is then how does one choose right how
[1:40:56] does one decide what's what's functional
[1:40:59] what works what's best what's me right
[1:41:02] everyone asking themselves who am I
[1:41:04] right I think all teenagers I find this
[1:41:05] fascinating ask themselves who am I
[1:41:07] adults don't tend to ask themselves that
[1:41:09] question but who am I I still ask myself
[1:41:11] question okay well that's good maybe I
[1:41:13] should ask myself that more often but um
[1:41:16] I think
[1:41:17] that we clearly have gone over a cliff
[1:41:20] with this stuff I don't think we're
[1:41:22] still at the point where we're kind of
[1:41:24] veering towards the edge of of confusion
[1:41:26] I think young people are really confused
[1:41:29] because the moment one assumes uh one
[1:41:32] clear and let's say balanced Mas set of
[1:41:35] masculine feminine attributes or maybe
[1:41:36] ver is a bit more masculine or a bit
[1:41:38] more feminine it's like um there are a
[1:41:40] million examples telling you that that's
[1:41:42] wrong I know and then sometimes has the
[1:41:44] tendency to Anchor to well no no I'm
[1:41:46] right because this is this is who I am
[1:41:48] and then all of a sudden you're you're
[1:41:49] in a larger battle so uh you know Gary
[1:41:52] Cooper's great love his movies um but
[1:41:55] we're like we now have a million
[1:41:57] variations on Gary Cooper um that don't
[1:42:01] look anything like the Gary Cooper you
[1:42:02] and I are talking about and a lot of
[1:42:03] people won't even know who we're talking
[1:42:04] about but I
[1:42:06] they I'm a dinosaur but perhaps it
[1:42:08] illustrates the point no i' not that
[1:42:09] you're a dinosaur but that um there is
[1:42:11] no single or even um set of masculine or
[1:42:15] feminine ideals so picking Role Models
[1:42:19] is something that I really truly
[1:42:21] internalize from your book mastery yeah
[1:42:24] you know there were a lot of lonely
[1:42:25] years for me and I won't get into the
[1:42:27] stories of just wondering like my what
[1:42:29] am I going to do you know I'm 13 my home
[1:42:31] was completely broken no semblance of
[1:42:34] the reality it was before you know who
[1:42:36] are the the males in my life I'm going
[1:42:38] to orient to and fortunately for me I
[1:42:40] assigned mentors to me whether or not
[1:42:41] they knew it or not that really helped
[1:42:43] me along and I changed them up as you
[1:42:45] recommend there wasn't one um I
[1:42:48] understood there was a breaking up
[1:42:49] process an integration process combining
[1:42:51] and threading together different things
[1:42:52] I think I truly believe that that's
[1:42:54] what's required then um it doesn't have
[1:42:56] to be 100% Gary Cooper it can be 10%
[1:43:00] Robert Green 10% someone else you know
[1:43:04] 5% this and creating a pie chart of
[1:43:06] sorts of you know who one wishes to be
[1:43:09] in a given context but that takes work
[1:43:11] it takes a bit of work and
[1:43:13] discernment but gosh that's powerful um
[1:43:16] and really credit goes to you because I
[1:43:19] you know you were a mentor of mine you
[1:43:21] didn't even realize it in the way that
[1:43:22] you forge and organiz information and
[1:43:24] there were others and but Mastery is
[1:43:26] where I learned to do that and this is
[1:43:29] not a podcast it's a sales pitch for
[1:43:31] Mastery but gosh it really taught me
[1:43:34] okay I have a graduate adviser she was
[1:43:37] wonderful and Brilliant but she didn't
[1:43:39] know how to explain a lot of things to
[1:43:41] me so I'd find someone else for that
[1:43:43] right and someone else for the other
[1:43:44] thing and someone else for the other
[1:43:45] thing and together create a patchwork of
[1:43:47] of really excellent mentors that made a
[1:43:49] lot of sense to me yeah yeah so I I
[1:43:51] think there's a a role for
[1:43:54] that process that you spell out in
[1:43:55] Mastery in the larger context of like
[1:43:57] could have become as a person and that
[1:43:59] includes masculine and feminine ideals
[1:44:01] yeah and and it's an ongoing process
[1:44:03] throughout your life so who you glommed
[1:44:05] on to when you were 14 or 15 will change
[1:44:08] when you're 19 I had a series of people
[1:44:10] like you're talking about my high school
[1:44:13] English teacher who had an enormous
[1:44:15] impact on me who taught me basically how
[1:44:17] to write I internalized his voice when I
[1:44:21] went to Berkeley I had a professor that
[1:44:24] who became my kind of surrogate father
[1:44:26] at Berkeley who I deeply admired for his
[1:44:28] level of scholarship so he became kind
[1:44:30] of an intellectual role model later in
[1:44:33] life when I finally wrote my first book
[1:44:35] I met a man y steers who was a book
[1:44:38] packager who understood the business Etc
[1:44:41] he kind of saved me he was sort of my
[1:44:43] mentor for the next phase in my life so
[1:44:45] on and on and on I found people but they
[1:44:48] have positive qualities qualities they
[1:44:50] admire they're not perfect everyone is
[1:44:52] flawed
[1:44:54] and so at some point maybe you see too
[1:44:56] many of the flaws you go on I need
[1:44:58] somebody new in my life but there's
[1:44:59] nothing wrong with that it's not like
[1:45:01] you're you're you're violating any codes
[1:45:03] or hurting them you move on to somebody
[1:45:06] else but the sense of finding people
[1:45:09] whose qualities you admire we don't
[1:45:11] learn from people just by following
[1:45:15] their ideas we pick up their energy
[1:45:17] their Spirit now you didn't necessarily
[1:45:20] pick up my energy or Spirit from Reading
[1:45:22] Master although Maybe you did I don't
[1:45:24] know but when you're interacting with
[1:45:26] that professor at Stanford or whatever
[1:45:29] it's not just verbally there's kind of a
[1:45:32] non-verbal communication going on you're
[1:45:34] internalizing some of the positive
[1:45:36] qualities that you saw in them and
[1:45:38] finding these series of mentors because
[1:45:41] I call it surrogate
[1:45:43] parents you can't choose your father and
[1:45:46] mother but you can choose these ideals
[1:45:49] for you can choose these mentors in your
[1:45:51] life you can kind of rewrite
[1:45:54] your family history and find that Father
[1:45:56] Figure You Never Had by glomming onto
[1:45:59] this person but it has to be the right
[1:46:00] fit it has to be someone that you
[1:46:02] connect to emotionally and
[1:46:04] intellectually and that has the positive
[1:46:06] qualities you wish for yourself well
[1:46:09] I'll embarrass you perhaps by saying
[1:46:11] that um since I was a freshman in
[1:46:12] college which is really when I turned my
[1:46:15] academic life around and really my life
[1:46:17] around I've maintained the same notebook
[1:46:19] with a list of names of people that I
[1:46:22] admire and who I'm um you know trying to
[1:46:24] emulate in some way not in every way
[1:46:26] certainly and the certain names have
[1:46:27] been crossed off but um most of them
[1:46:30] have survived and and certainly after
[1:46:32] reading Mastery your name made that list
[1:46:34] and um and I hope I'm not being crossed
[1:46:37] off at some point no not at all not not
[1:46:39] at all and through Reading Mastery there
[1:46:41] were there were additional names um you
[1:46:43] know I had the great the great
[1:46:44] Misfortune of having all three of my
[1:46:46] academic advisors die suicide cancer
[1:46:49] cancer which sounds tragic the joke in
[1:46:51] my field is you don't want me to work
[1:46:52] for you that's what that's what everyone
[1:46:53] says but by being essentially
[1:46:55] scientifically orphaned because there's
[1:46:57] a strong Mentor mentee relationship in
[1:46:59] science and progression through the
[1:47:00] career uh track it forced me to go out
[1:47:03] and find other people and also to learn
[1:47:05] how to quote unquote mother and father
[1:47:07] myself in the context of profession and
[1:47:09] I got a lot of help but um I I can't
[1:47:12] emphasize enough how valuable that
[1:47:14] practice is and so when one looks out on
[1:47:16] the landscape of social media options I
[1:47:19] mean these are literally just options of
[1:47:20] people to you know we call it following
[1:47:23] but um you know it probably should be
[1:47:25] called something else uh because
[1:47:27] following you know it fall short of
[1:47:30] emulating or attempting to emulate but I
[1:47:32] think that in the context of masculine
[1:47:33] and feminine ideals this is so critical
[1:47:35] but it's like the buffet of food is so
[1:47:37] enormous now right I mean you've got
[1:47:40] every cuisine on the table so speak
[1:47:42] we're we're not wired for that no and I
[1:47:45] know personally I I get very agitated
[1:47:47] and upset if I go to the market and I
[1:47:50] have to choose between 30 items and I
[1:47:52] have no idea what I want it makes me
[1:47:54] really cranky and upset whereas if I
[1:47:57] know okay I can have this food I can't
[1:47:59] have that I'm only looking for this okay
[1:48:02] it's easy it doesn't take two hours and
[1:48:04] waste my time too much choice is very
[1:48:07] detrimental to the human being I think
[1:48:09] and that's why going back to what I
[1:48:11] originally said when you have that sense
[1:48:13] of purpose about your life about what's
[1:48:16] important it does just infect your
[1:48:19] career but it infects everything you do
[1:48:21] so you know eating this food is going to
[1:48:25] drain me of my energy that I need to
[1:48:28] create this thing that means so much to
[1:48:30] me and energy and feeling my my brain
[1:48:33] active and alive is incredibly important
[1:48:35] value all right I'm not going to eat all
[1:48:37] that Sugar because it's bad for me right
[1:48:39] it means I'm not going to get outraged
[1:48:41] by these things on the internet because
[1:48:43] it's a waste of time I can't do anything
[1:48:45] about it it's just feeding on my you
[1:48:48] know on my I forget the part of the
[1:48:49] brain that's that's like the amydala or
[1:48:51] whatever right so no I don't want to go
[1:48:54] there right and on and on and on all
[1:48:57] these things in social media some of
[1:48:59] it's good some of it's interesting I can
[1:49:01] follow Andrew huberman's podcast and I
[1:49:04] enjoy that and I learn a lot from it but
[1:49:06] a lot of these podcasts are useless
[1:49:07] they're they're not helping me in any
[1:49:09] way so it gives you this kind of filter
[1:49:13] and this radar to cut out those hundred
[1:49:16] different choices that drive us
[1:49:18] absolutely crazy and I know maybe I'm
[1:49:21] partially I maybe maybe I'm a little bit
[1:49:24] I don't know I hate to say that maybe
[1:49:25] I'm partially on the Spectrum or
[1:49:26] something but I can't trans can't stand
[1:49:29] too many choices it completely drives me
[1:49:32] nuts so I always have to kind of funnel
[1:49:34] my energy into something to things that
[1:49:36] are productive and having a sense of
[1:49:39] your purpose whenever you discovered in
[1:49:41] your 20s hopefully gives you that
[1:49:43] ability to say these are the positive
[1:49:46] role models I want in my life these are
[1:49:48] the mentors and the thing about
[1:49:50] following people on social media is it's
[1:49:52] so easy it's just a click it doesn't
[1:49:54] mean anything a mentor relationship
[1:49:57] takes work it takes courage because you
[1:50:00] have to actually go up to somebody and
[1:50:03] physically ask for their help and a lot
[1:50:05] of people write to me say I'm afraid of
[1:50:08] asking this important powerful person to
[1:50:10] be their mentee right so it involves a
[1:50:13] sense of social courage where you have
[1:50:15] to literally engage with another human
[1:50:18] being who you admire and who you think
[1:50:19] is powerful so it's building your social
[1:50:21] skills Etc but it's a skill you develop
[1:50:24] you can't just follow someone you can't
[1:50:26] just watch their lectures you have to
[1:50:28] engage with them and you have to get
[1:50:30] over some of your fears and your
[1:50:31] anxieties in the process yeah and I
[1:50:34] might add to it uh I think everything
[1:50:36] you said is absolutely true and I think
[1:50:38] um engaging in the the various um tools
[1:50:42] that they recommend is immensely helpful
[1:50:45] like I think hear hearing about a book
[1:50:46] is great reading a book is even better
[1:50:49] um thinking about a book is even that
[1:50:50] you read is even better than that and
[1:50:53] and then uh writing down your own ideas
[1:50:55] and writing a book well that's that's
[1:50:57] the big win right and that's what the
[1:50:59] world I believe that's what the universe
[1:51:01] wants from us not necessarily to write a
[1:51:03] book but you know translate what I just
[1:51:05] said to any number of different
[1:51:06] Endeavors yeah you want to be able to
[1:51:08] think for yourself right so you're not
[1:51:12] just absorbing ideas from other people
[1:51:14] and kind of mimicking them and kind of
[1:51:16] just learning the exteriors of their
[1:51:19] ideas you want to kind of digest them
[1:51:22] and then have them slowly become your
[1:51:24] own ideas by interacting with them by
[1:51:28] Crea then putting them through your own
[1:51:30] lens so someday it's it's a book
[1:51:33] stirring in me is the art of thinking
[1:51:37] and how to use that kind of process and
[1:51:39] go deeper into it and I talked a lot
[1:51:42] about it in one of my podcasts which
[1:51:44] might be the seed of a book but it's
[1:51:47] it's the the difference between dead
[1:51:49] thinking and Alive thinking ideas can be
[1:51:53] either alive or they can be dead and an
[1:51:55] alive idea is something that enters your
[1:51:58] brain from an external Source a
[1:52:01] philosopher an article somebody you
[1:52:03] admire somebody you hate and then you
[1:52:06] absorb it and you think about it and you
[1:52:09] decide I'm going to turn it around into
[1:52:11] this and I'm going to make it alive and
[1:52:13] it's going to make it something that's
[1:52:14] part of me another part of an alive idea
[1:52:17] is um you have an idea that comes to you
[1:52:21] about a book or a project or something
[1:52:23] about the world and you go maybe that's
[1:52:26] not actually true maybe the opposite is
[1:52:28] true and you go through a process and
[1:52:30] you cycle through it on and on and you
[1:52:32] reflect on it and you refine this idea
[1:52:34] and maybe it turns into its opposite and
[1:52:37] through the process of reflecting and
[1:52:39] correcting and revising it you turn it
[1:52:41] into something living something alive
[1:52:43] within you right on and on and on and
[1:52:47] what prevents people from going through
[1:52:49] that process which would be the subject
[1:52:50] of my book is basically anxiety because
[1:52:54] I think how you handle anxiety is the
[1:52:58] most important kind of quality in life
[1:53:00] it'll determine whether you will be
[1:53:02] successful whether you will find your
[1:53:04] career path or whether you won't be able
[1:53:06] to I don't know if you can follow that
[1:53:09] idea at all but um anxiety is a signal
[1:53:12] to you that you don't understand
[1:53:13] something that that there's a problem
[1:53:15] out there that that you can't
[1:53:17] resolve and so what happens to most
[1:53:20] people if you're insecure is you glom
[1:53:23] onto something instant and easy to get
[1:53:26] rid of your feeling of anxiety I don't
[1:53:29] understand this problem oh it must be a
[1:53:31] must a must be the answer because this
[1:53:32] person said that right and so you don't
[1:53:35] develop the the ability to think you
[1:53:37] don't develop the ability to go to the
[1:53:39] next level but if you take that anxiety
[1:53:42] and you go all right maybe a is an
[1:53:45] answer and then you start going through
[1:53:47] a and then you go no maybe a isn't the
[1:53:49] answer maybe B is the answer you're able
[1:53:52] to surmount your anxiety and go past it
[1:53:54] further and further and further you
[1:53:56] don't rush for the first available
[1:53:58] answer that's out there right you're
[1:54:00] able to go through a process of refining
[1:54:02] things and so in your
[1:54:05] career if you're anxious for Success if
[1:54:08] you're anxious for money you're going to
[1:54:10] make the wrong choices but if you're
[1:54:12] able to deal with that anxiety and say
[1:54:15] maybe I'm I have to think more deeply
[1:54:17] about where I'm going I have to come up
[1:54:19] with other Alternatives then you're
[1:54:20] going to make a much better choice on
[1:54:22] and on and on so how if you're deal if
[1:54:25] you're a creative person it's very very
[1:54:29] challenging to have that blank piece of
[1:54:31] paper before you that book that you
[1:54:32] haven't written that film or whatever
[1:54:34] you're filled with a lot of anxiety and
[1:54:37] you have to deal with it and if you're
[1:54:38] able to turn into something creative and
[1:54:40] productive then great things will happen
[1:54:42] you'll create a masterpiece so the
[1:54:45] ability to deal with anxiety and to not
[1:54:48] give into the most instant gratification
[1:54:50] that you can get is to me a marker of
[1:54:52] somebody who will be creative and will
[1:54:54] invent something as opposed to people
[1:54:56] who just recycle old and dead
[1:54:59] ideas Amen to that I uh was once told
[1:55:04] that you know anxiety makes children of
[1:55:06] us all and not in the positive sense of
[1:55:09] being childlike you know it it regresses
[1:55:12] us to a mode where we feel a complete
[1:55:14] lack of control and I completely agree
[1:55:16] that being able to manage anxiety and
[1:55:18] and work dance with it since we can't
[1:55:20] rid ourselves of it no no perhaps nor
[1:55:23] should we right because it's a signal as
[1:55:25] you point out that we don't understand
[1:55:26] something that there's there's something
[1:55:28] to get curious about right a process or
[1:55:30] something out there or both I think uh
[1:55:33] that really resonates yeah and I think a
[1:55:35] lot of people will benefit from from
[1:55:37] hearing that because I think we hear the
[1:55:39] word flow and we just all imagine I even
[1:55:43] catch myself imagining that you know
[1:55:44] when Robert Green sits down to right
[1:55:46] it's like there's a blank sheet and then
[1:55:47] he just kind of meditates and then boom
[1:55:49] out come these books um but I you know
[1:55:53] if I get realistic for a second I'm sure
[1:55:55] that there's a lot of inner turmoil and
[1:55:56] anxiety oh my God you have no idea so um
[1:55:59] my process is is 95% pain and maybe 2
[1:56:04] and a half% ecstasy and I don't know
[1:56:07] what the other 2 and a half% would be
[1:56:09] but um so I write a story because all in
[1:56:13] my new book in most of my books I always
[1:56:15] begin with a story from history
[1:56:18] Etc and it is so bad it I just I can't
[1:56:22] believe how bad how flat it is how it
[1:56:25] sucks I'm so embarrassed I hate myself
[1:56:28] then I go and I go dig into and I start
[1:56:30] changing the words in it I start making
[1:56:32] it a little bit better the second
[1:56:34] version It's kind of palatable but it
[1:56:36] still sucks it's if I let it out into
[1:56:39] the world be very embarrassing I work I
[1:56:41] it's an anxious you know and my wife can
[1:56:44] tell you I'm a miserable being when that
[1:56:46] happens everything looks black to me at
[1:56:48] that point and I push through it so if I
[1:56:51] gave in to my anxiety and this happens
[1:56:55] with a lot of books and writers I would
[1:56:57] just put out that second version which
[1:56:59] isn't very good it isn't very strong it
[1:57:01] isn't thought through because my ideas
[1:57:04] when I look at them the first time I go
[1:57:06] that's not real that's not the actual
[1:57:08] thing that's going on here Robert you've
[1:57:10] missed the mark you want to hit what's
[1:57:12] actually real in that story so you have
[1:57:14] to go deeper and deeper and harder and
[1:57:16] harder and harder so I don't just give
[1:57:18] up and go here's the chapter I go it's
[1:57:21] got to be better it's got to be better
[1:57:23] until
[1:57:24] finally after two months of
[1:57:27] struggling it seems like it's it's gone
[1:57:30] to the place that I wanted to be in
[1:57:32] right but I I use that anxiety to keep
[1:57:35] improving and making it better and then
[1:57:37] when I reach that point in the story is
[1:57:39] good enough and I can let my wife read
[1:57:41] it and then my editor I feel great I
[1:57:43] have that 2% moment of Joy but it came
[1:57:47] through all of that anxiety but I can
[1:57:50] tell you the feeling of f fillment when
[1:57:53] I finish a chapter is pretty damn great
[1:57:56] when I finish a
[1:57:58] book it's better than any kind of drug
[1:58:00] experience anyone could ever have it's
[1:58:02] such a wonderful feeling of
[1:58:04] accomplishment and pushing past all the
[1:58:06] barriers you know so my process involves
[1:58:10] a lot of anxiety and dealing with that's
[1:58:12] why I'm talking about it why I want to
[1:58:14] write a book about it thank you for
[1:58:16] sharing that um I'm attempting to write
[1:58:18] a book and have been for several years
[1:58:20] and now I feel a little bit better but
[1:58:22] clearly I need to ratchet down harder um
[1:58:25] but in other domains of life I I am
[1:58:29] familiar with the experience of tons of
[1:58:31] anxiety and just okay I'm going to just
[1:58:32] get to this one Milestone and then I'll
[1:58:35] figure out the next Milestone but even
[1:58:36] that process of saying okay I'm going to
[1:58:37] break this down into Milestones itself
[1:58:39] is anxiety provoking it's just that but
[1:58:41] at some point it generates enough
[1:58:43] inertia that you just that you just sort
[1:58:45] of stumble forward into the process and
[1:58:47] then keep going so try not to bloody
[1:58:49] oneself that's right too much yeah I
[1:58:52] think a lot people will benefit from
[1:58:53] hearing about that in fact I'm certain
[1:58:55] they will So speaking of anxiety you
[1:58:58] have a clip on the internet that we will
[1:59:02] provide a link to in the show note
[1:59:03] captions which I think is absolutely
[1:59:05] fabulous about how to find a romantic
[1:59:09] partner and or get more out of an
[1:59:12] existing romantic partnership I don't
[1:59:14] even remember what I said you're going
[1:59:15] to have to remind oh it's so good
[1:59:19] um one point in particular yeah that uh
[1:59:23] I remember um that I think is oh so true
[1:59:28] is that there needs to be at least one
[1:59:31] and probably several uh points of like
[1:59:34] real convergence in terms of one's
[1:59:37] interests or likes that go beyond like
[1:59:40] what food somebody likes or uh you know
[1:59:44] what type of house they want to live in
[1:59:46] but that actually traces back to these
[1:59:49] early forms of delight and you mentioned
[1:59:51] uh that for you and therefore presumably
[1:59:55] your partner that you know a mutual love
[1:59:58] and respect for Animals happens to be
[2:00:00] one of those things within the context
[2:00:02] of your relationship right that not that
[2:00:04] A Love For Animals is required for me it
[2:00:06] sure as hell is right exactly could
[2:00:08] never go out with a woman who didn't
[2:00:10] love animals right my sister used to
[2:00:12] tease me that um if a woman gave me a
[2:00:15] birthday card or a card that had a
[2:00:17] drawing of a particular animal which I'm
[2:00:20] particularly fond of my sister used I
[2:00:21] have an older sister and she used to say
[2:00:23] oh no it's over he's gone you know that
[2:00:25] it would you know um fortunately it's
[2:00:27] it's not that simple um but uh there's
[2:00:30] some truth to what she was saying um
[2:00:32] it's certainly uh it's necessary but not
[2:00:34] sufficient but maybe you could elaborate
[2:00:36] a little bit on this notion of um
[2:00:39] convergent interest and contrast it with
[2:00:42] a lot of what people tend to hear and
[2:00:47] say about what's important in
[2:00:49] Partnership because I think this is
[2:00:51] something that a lot of people grapple
[2:00:52] with both in terms of finding a partner
[2:00:54] and in terms of building
[2:00:56] partnership well um you have to you know
[2:01:00] there's you can there's different
[2:01:01] relationships you can have I mean do you
[2:01:03] want like a one week a one month
[2:01:05] relationship are you looking for
[2:01:06] something longer more satisfying that
[2:01:09] will entail you know maybe years of
[2:01:11] being
[2:01:13] together and um you know uh people can
[2:01:17] get very boring very quickly right
[2:01:20] particularly if you can't have a
[2:01:21] conversation with them about subjects
[2:01:23] that interest you and so you mention
[2:01:27] animals animals is a very good example
[2:01:30] because it's not I'm not saying that you
[2:01:32] both have to be Democrats or Republicans
[2:01:34] that's too banal and superficial but the
[2:01:37] Love of Animals reaches into your
[2:01:39] character reaches something deep inside
[2:01:41] of you or your dislike of animals if
[2:01:43] that happens to be the case but it
[2:01:46] signals something about it that's so
[2:01:48] Primal that's so connected to a
[2:01:50] child that there's going be a deep
[2:01:53] connection there and it's not like you
[2:01:55] have to both love cats which is good if
[2:01:57] that happens to be the case but just
[2:01:59] animals in general you love their energy
[2:02:01] you love the fact that they're that
[2:02:03] they're innocent in their own way you
[2:02:06] love the fact that they're not playing
[2:02:08] games with you you love the kind of
[2:02:10] instant love you can get from them kind
[2:02:11] of thing and you connect to them on that
[2:02:14] level is a very very positive sign
[2:02:17] because it goes beyond just intellectual
[2:02:19] things into something emotional and
[2:02:21] visceral
[2:02:22] so really the emotional connections the
[2:02:26] values that you have together are very
[2:02:29] important money is another one that's
[2:02:31] extremely important so if one of you is
[2:02:35] incredibly material oriented and it's
[2:02:37] all about money is is is power and
[2:02:40] success and comfort and the other isn't
[2:02:43] really into it it's into spending money
[2:02:46] Etc a lot of people have endless fights
[2:02:49] over something like money right where
[2:02:52] the there's no convergence there and
[2:02:55] money signals a deeper value about the
[2:02:58] person so I'm not saying there's
[2:02:59] anything wrong if money motivates you
[2:03:02] I'm not moralizing about it because that
[2:03:04] can signal a value that maybe you grew
[2:03:06] up without it and that feeling
[2:03:08] comfortable and feeling like you don't
[2:03:10] have to worry about something is very
[2:03:12] very important to you and the not being
[2:03:14] interested in money reveals something
[2:03:16] about your character so I'm telling
[2:03:19] people you want to look at the person's
[2:03:21] character and see a kind of convergence
[2:03:23] there and something that can last and I
[2:03:26] remember I was reading um for one of my
[2:03:28] books about Franklin Delo Roosevelt and
[2:03:30] Elanor Roosevelt and the thing of it was
[2:03:33] Franklin delanor Roosevelt was this
[2:03:35] incredibly handsome vibrant young man
[2:03:37] before he got polio very active very
[2:03:40] athletic very handsome all the women
[2:03:43] were after him he was like the perfect
[2:03:44] match he was wealthy and Elanor
[2:03:46] Roosevelt was like the ugly duckling she
[2:03:49] wasn't very pretty she was kind of
[2:03:51] socially awkward
[2:03:53] but he saw into her character he saw
[2:03:56] that intellectually she was a match for
[2:03:58] him he saw that they had kind of similar
[2:04:00] interests on that level that I'm talking
[2:04:02] about that go beneath just the
[2:04:04] surfaces and he chose Elanor and
[2:04:07] everyone was shocked about it you know
[2:04:09] nobody was was trying to court Elanor
[2:04:13] I've wrote her last name at the time I
[2:04:15] think she might have in being a
[2:04:16] Roosevelt um so it was very shocking he
[2:04:19] said I I looked at somebody who I could
[2:04:22] last with who had some qualities that
[2:04:24] were much more important to me and ended
[2:04:26] up being a very satisfying relationship
[2:04:28] of course later on he had his Dianes so
[2:04:30] it wasn't perfect but it was a very it
[2:04:32] was a very positive relationship so
[2:04:36] seeing your values in life you know when
[2:04:40] it comes to like money when it comes to
[2:04:43] like career when it comes to comfort or
[2:04:46] lack of comfort some people like not
[2:04:49] being comfortable they like being on the
[2:04:51] Ed Ed they want challenges they want to
[2:04:54] move from City to City kind of thing and
[2:04:56] if you partner with somebody who just
[2:04:58] wants to live in the same house you're
[2:05:00] going to have conflict after conflict
[2:05:01] after conflict the sex might be great
[2:05:05] and that might be good for a month or
[2:05:06] two months I have nothing against that
[2:05:07] I'm not going to judge that either but
[2:05:09] it won't lead to a longlasting
[2:05:12] relationship you know Sports and
[2:05:14] Athletics are another thing is a someone
[2:05:16] that likes the outdoors or is it someone
[2:05:18] who's you know like zaha Gabor and has
[2:05:21] to be in in a Time Square in a penthouse
[2:05:23] in Manhattan you know kind of thing so
[2:05:26] values that reach inside of a per
[2:05:29] character that are deeply ingrained that
[2:05:31] you can almost not change you can't
[2:05:34] control and there's a convergence there
[2:05:36] on several levels is a sign that you can
[2:05:39] have a deep connection with that person
[2:05:41] and it's very important and if those
[2:05:45] connections are good and there's a
[2:05:48] physical attraction because if without
[2:05:51] the physical attraction it will kind of
[2:05:53] fizzle out you've got a recipe for for
[2:05:56] incredible success for something that
[2:05:57] can really last and having a lasting
[2:06:00] relationship as I've
[2:06:01] had is is such an anchor in your life
[2:06:05] you know for me for someone who works as
[2:06:07] hard as I do and hopefully for her as
[2:06:09] well it just grounds me and it makes
[2:06:12] life so much simpler and easier and and
[2:06:14] it's not just simple and easy there's a
[2:06:17] lot of love and a great deal of of of
[2:06:20] deeper emotions involved but having a
[2:06:22] long-term relationship if you can have
[2:06:25] it is something that pays off in so many
[2:06:28] dividends so being able to find that
[2:06:30] kind of convergence you know when I
[2:06:33] first met my now my wife um I had a cat
[2:06:39] at the time I'd always been a dog person
[2:06:42] but this was a cat I had and I love that
[2:06:43] cat like hell I can't believe he was
[2:06:45] such a wonderful
[2:06:46] cat I brought her over to my apartment
[2:06:49] on the first date I wanted to see her
[2:06:51] reaction to the cat you know because I
[2:06:54] generally and I don't know people
[2:06:56] misjudge that women who don't like cats
[2:06:59] I I don't I can't get along with right
[2:07:02] because there's something feline in the
[2:07:03] feminine nature that I love and she
[2:07:06] loved my cat boy that was the best sign
[2:07:09] of all and things just Bloss and she
[2:07:11] loved me for loving a cat so there was a
[2:07:13] great convergence right there that we
[2:07:15] saw right away and there were other
[2:07:17] things but that was the first
[2:07:19] one I love that story and everything you
[2:07:22] just said suggests I believe that in
[2:07:26] order to find the right partner and to
[2:07:29] build an existing partnership that
[2:07:32] hopefully feels at least partially right
[2:07:33] to people that it requires at least some
[2:07:36] knowing of self Because unless you know
[2:07:39] your character one's own character then
[2:07:42] it's impossible to really determine if
[2:07:45] somebody else's character is going to
[2:07:46] mesh well with it or not self-awareness
[2:07:49] is is actually the most important
[2:07:51] quality in life for all aspects but yeah
[2:07:54] I mean if we go by social pressures a
[2:07:58] man will choose a trophy wife who looks
[2:08:00] sexy and hot and will impress all of his
[2:08:03] male friends etc etc you go by the
[2:08:06] things that culture tells you that these
[2:08:08] are the right images for you right and
[2:08:11] then there won't be any connection to
[2:08:13] you because you're choosing for purposes
[2:08:15] that don't connect to who you are and so
[2:08:18] you have to know yourself you have to
[2:08:19] know what you love you have to know what
[2:08:20] you hate I think most people know that
[2:08:24] they love animals or don't love animals
[2:08:26] I think most people know that they like
[2:08:29] stability or they like things to be kind
[2:08:31] of slightly chaotic I don't think you
[2:08:33] have to go through deep levels of
[2:08:36] introspection but what you have to do is
[2:08:39] when you're involved in a relationship
[2:08:41] you have to think that those things
[2:08:42] matter that's the problem you tend to
[2:08:45] think that those things matter you think
[2:08:46] that sex matters more than anything
[2:08:48] physical attraction matters or you think
[2:08:50] that the person having a lot of money
[2:08:53] matters etc etc you don't think that
[2:08:56] this other aspect is important if you
[2:08:59] value what I'm talking about then your
[2:09:01] self-awareness will kick in because you
[2:09:03] really basically know these essential
[2:09:05] basic parts about your own character I
[2:09:08] think people sometimes get um distracted
[2:09:11] by admiration of qualities that they
[2:09:13] might
[2:09:14] find admirable but that don't mesh with
[2:09:18] their own character I've seen this many
[2:09:20] times before where examp well uh where
[2:09:22] someone will say well there someone will
[2:09:25] start listing off the positive
[2:09:26] attributes of the person that they
[2:09:28] happen to be dating like he does this
[2:09:30] blank blank and blank she does this you
[2:09:32] know he volunteers Etc and that's all
[2:09:34] great I mean volunteering for good
[2:09:36] causes I'm all in support of that but
[2:09:38] then what they're overlooking often it
[2:09:41] seems is whether or not that's a core
[2:09:44] value for them or whether or not it's
[2:09:45] just something that they admire I hear a
[2:09:47] lot of admiration in the early days of
[2:09:49] relationships that later I hear about
[2:09:51] failing and what you're talking about is
[2:09:53] something deeper more uh aligned with
[2:09:57] one's own sense of self and it almost um
[2:10:01] leads me to use the word you know sort
[2:10:03] of a more about energetics it's like
[2:10:06] merging of people's energies which
[2:10:07] sounds very new Agy and that's not my
[2:10:10] intention but but I think it relates to
[2:10:13] something that we do hear a lot about
[2:10:15] and I think is valid which is how it
[2:10:16] feels to be around somebody in different
[2:10:18] context like do we feel at ease do we
[2:10:21] feel lightness and ability to express
[2:10:23] ourselves and to um and do we enjoy and
[2:10:25] admire them in their expression as
[2:10:28] opposed to just admiring what they do
[2:10:30] they've accomplished blank blank and
[2:10:32] blank I see right they uh manifest these
[2:10:34] qualities that I wish I had right you
[2:10:36] hear that and and aspire to have which
[2:10:38] is very different than a meshing of of
[2:10:42] energies also there a couple other
[2:10:44] things you have to understand their
[2:10:46] character as well and people can be very
[2:10:48] deceptive and very slippery and can wear
[2:10:51] masks
[2:10:52] one telling sign that I've noticed in my
[2:10:54] own relationships in the
[2:10:56] past is that the woman would be a
[2:10:59] certain way with me that I thought was
[2:11:00] very good and I liked and then the
[2:11:02] moment we were with other people she
[2:11:04] acted in a way that was very irritating
[2:11:07] it's like a different character and I
[2:11:09] really kind of fell out of love with her
[2:11:11] when I saw her in social interactions
[2:11:14] she revealed so with me she was almost
[2:11:16] wearing a mask and playing a game but
[2:11:18] the moment she entered a different
[2:11:20] circumstance I saw other aspect to her
[2:11:22] character so you also have to be very
[2:11:24] attentive to their character what lies
[2:11:26] underneath that they have some of these
[2:11:28] values that they're not just trying to
[2:11:30] win you over for whatever and they're
[2:11:32] playing along with you the other thing
[2:11:34] that's very
[2:11:36] important is a sense of mystery so a
[2:11:40] partner can become boring very very
[2:11:42] quickly right after a year you know
[2:11:45] every single thing about them right
[2:11:47] they're going to say the same things the
[2:11:50] conversations go around found in circles
[2:11:53] it's just you've reached an end there's
[2:11:55] no surprises there's no mystery you want
[2:11:58] somebody where they have corners that
[2:12:00] you don't really see at first that they
[2:12:03] surprise you sometimes suddenly there's
[2:12:05] a quality that you hadn't suspected
[2:12:07] before so people who are too obvious who
[2:12:11] are too familiar who show everything
[2:12:13] instantly they're going to end up boring
[2:12:15] you right but people who have a bit of
[2:12:19] Reserve I I know this is maybe I'm I'm
[2:12:21] projecting my own values on the world
[2:12:24] but people who who kind of intrigue you
[2:12:26] that you don't fully understand that
[2:12:28] make you want to know more and if they
[2:12:31] can be like that after two years or
[2:12:32] three years or five years wow that's
[2:12:34] fantastic but the sense of I know every
[2:12:37] single thing about this person they
[2:12:38] never surprise me anymore is what kind
[2:12:41] of breaks the the the enchantment and
[2:12:44] leads to the end of the relationship
[2:12:46] well the idea of more to learn about
[2:12:48] somebody um perhaps also suggests that
[2:12:50] they are continuing to evolve into
[2:12:52] forage in the landscape of life you know
[2:12:55] that they're not fully baked right that
[2:12:57] which I think is um an interesting idea
[2:13:00] in during the four episode series that
[2:13:03] we did on Mental Health Paul kti a
[2:13:05] psychiatrist said that um a matching of
[2:13:07] generative drives which he defined as
[2:13:10] the desire to create something in the
[2:13:12] world of One's Own expression is really
[2:13:14] critical in relationship and he said you
[2:13:16] know it matters less whether or not one
[2:13:18] person likes classical music and the
[2:13:20] other person rock and roll provid that
[2:13:22] their relationship to music is similar
[2:13:24] or something of that sort like that it's
[2:13:26] about a drive to of a certain sort to
[2:13:29] engage in the world so one person could
[2:13:30] love music the other person's not into
[2:13:32] music but the way that they approach
[2:13:34] life is one of perhaps Mutual curiosity
[2:13:38] desire to find out Etc and that this
[2:13:41] exists on a Continuum uh I'm curious if
[2:13:44] uh it seems to jive with what you're
[2:13:46] with what you're saying it does but the
[2:13:47] only thing I would add is if you love
[2:13:50] classical music and they love like heavy
[2:13:53] metal music you're going to be driven
[2:13:56] crazy pretty quickly it's going to you
[2:13:57] know it's not going to mesh with you and
[2:13:59] I know I would have that problem you'll
[2:14:00] both be in headphones a
[2:14:03] lot right so the fact that you both have
[2:14:06] because music is like animals in a way
[2:14:09] so I agree completely with what you're
[2:14:12] saying but I would say maybe music isn't
[2:14:14] the best example because music says
[2:14:17] something very deep about a person right
[2:14:20] there and you know I'm not saying one is
[2:14:22] superior to the other but it reveals
[2:14:24] something that's nonverbal that that
[2:14:27] kind of gives you a window into who they
[2:14:29] are so if they like punk rock like you
[2:14:33] do and I grew up on punk rock there's a
[2:14:36] rebellious thing this to there's an
[2:14:38] anti-authoritarian quality that's very
[2:14:39] strong you get you get to see that
[2:14:41] through them if they like modart and
[2:14:45] soft string quartets there's somebody
[2:14:47] that kind of values softness and
[2:14:49] tranquility and peace and you're not
[2:14:52] like that so the music kind of shows you
[2:14:55] something a quality about their
[2:14:56] character that can be very telling can
[2:14:58] be very eloquent and so it doesn't mean
[2:15:01] that you both have to love The Clash or
[2:15:04] the dead kennedies or whatever showing
[2:15:07] my own Generation Um but that you both
[2:15:11] have that rebellious streak and that
[2:15:14] rebellious streak could be you like
[2:15:16] there's classical music composers who
[2:15:18] could be pretty damn rebellious and
[2:15:19] angry you know and I actually kind of
[2:15:21] like them so that convergence I think is
[2:15:23] a positive one kind of thing but in
[2:15:25] general I agree with that I'm curious
[2:15:28] about the nonverbal communication
[2:15:31] component of all types of relationships
[2:15:33] but let's stay in the landscape of
[2:15:35] romantic relationships for the moment
[2:15:37] yeah maybe include professional
[2:15:38] relationships too because what you just
[2:15:40] described is really about a resonance
[2:15:43] around the non-verbal stuff I mean it
[2:15:45] can be articulated with words yeah um I
[2:15:48] love animals I love this music this is
[2:15:50] the best song like did you see that like
[2:15:52] otter are amazing right this kind of
[2:15:54] thing but language is just an attempt to
[2:15:57] place you know words on a Feeling in
[2:15:59] those instances so it it can be
[2:16:01] classified as non-verbal
[2:16:04] um with respect to non-verbal
[2:16:07] communication you've
[2:16:08] written fairly extensively about the
[2:16:12] fact that people often communicate with
[2:16:14] their body and facial
[2:16:16] expressions um I'm certainly familiar
[2:16:19] with the somewhat if not not very eerie
[2:16:22] sensation of somebody um smiling like a
[2:16:25] toothy smile and then it as they pivot
[2:16:29] away that smile just dissolving very
[2:16:31] quickly and um you know you don't have
[2:16:34] to be a neuroscientist or a psychologist
[2:16:36] to realize that like there was something
[2:16:38] quite false about that experience or
[2:16:41] that this person experiences um emotions
[2:16:44] like step functions on off on off which
[2:16:46] is not how most of us experience
[2:16:48] emotions most of us experience emotions
[2:16:50] with some pervasiveness like I was happy
[2:16:52] walking in the door because of something
[2:16:53] happened before and so I'm going to
[2:16:54] smile while I'm walking in the door if I
[2:16:56] see something shocking and dismaying of
[2:16:58] course I'm going to frown I'm going to
[2:16:59] wipe away that smile but those are rare
[2:17:01] instances so um let's talk about the
[2:17:04] mouth the eyes the face the body in the
[2:17:06] context of communication what are what
[2:17:08] are some important things to P attention
[2:17:10] one that I I I I wanted to go back on as
[2:17:12] far as convergence is sense of humor is
[2:17:15] extremely important right so it's not
[2:17:18] like you both like the same comedians
[2:17:20] but if one person likes runchy humor and
[2:17:22] the other person doesn't that's that's a
[2:17:24] problem and also the fact that the
[2:17:26] person doesn't have a sense of humor or
[2:17:28] doesn't make you laugh is a very very
[2:17:30] bad sign so I wanted to add that one
[2:17:32] component in there I'm so glad you did
[2:17:34] uh someone who can make me laugh has uh
[2:17:38] you know necessary but not sufficient
[2:17:41] but boy it's uh approaching sufficient
[2:17:43] yeah I'd say so I'd say so um you know
[2:17:47] when it comes to the Art of Seduction
[2:17:48] The Art of Seduction is a nonverbal
[2:17:51] language that you must Master it's a
[2:17:53] language of the gifts that you give it's
[2:17:55] a ma it's a language of of how you smell
[2:17:58] it's a language that you TR that you
[2:18:00] communicate through the eyes etc etc and
[2:18:04] the thing you have to understand about
[2:18:05] the human being is that we evolved for
[2:18:09] much longer period of time without words
[2:18:12] than the small 40 35,000 years that we
[2:18:15] have symbolic language so during that
[2:18:18] vast period of Darkness where we did not
[2:18:20] have words words we were non
[2:18:23] communicating non-verbally we were
[2:18:25] picking up signals from people we were
[2:18:28] watching every little detail of their
[2:18:30] behavior because we didn't have words to
[2:18:32] decipher it so it's wired into our
[2:18:36] brains to have an amazing sensitivity to
[2:18:39] people's non-verbal Communications we
[2:18:42] can almost be telepathic that way if we
[2:18:44] learn that
[2:18:46] language the problem is we have the
[2:18:48] capacity but we don't develop it at all
[2:18:51] because we are so word oriented you're
[2:18:54] just listening to people if you're even
[2:18:56] listening to them at all you're just
[2:18:58] hearing the words and you're so thinking
[2:19:00] that the words mean something the words
[2:19:02] are sincere which they're often not at
[2:19:05] the same time that you're listening so
[2:19:06] much to words people are shuffling in
[2:19:08] their chair they're kind of looking away
[2:19:10] they're looking at other women or other
[2:19:12] men their voice is kind of trembling
[2:19:14] when they say something that where it
[2:19:16] shouldn't tremble their eyes are dead
[2:19:18] the smile is kind of fake you're not
[2:19:20] watching any of it so the most important
[2:19:22] thing in non-verbal communication law
[2:19:25] number one is pay attention to it
[2:19:28] continually develop the practice of
[2:19:31] shutting off the words and watching
[2:19:33] people almost as if you took the
[2:19:34] television and muted it right and just
[2:19:37] watch their behavior it's not easy and
[2:19:39] it's not natural because it's the words
[2:19:42] the words the words we want to we want
[2:19:43] to focus on them right but your ability
[2:19:48] to turn that television off to mute it
[2:19:50] will suddenly open up so many things
[2:19:53] about people they reveal so much things
[2:19:56] Sigman Freud said people are continually
[2:19:58] oozing out all of their secrets through
[2:20:00] their non-verbal Behavior you can read
[2:20:02] them like an open book if you master
[2:20:04] this language and I have the laws of
[2:20:07] human nature I described the story of
[2:20:10] Milton Ericson I don't know if you're
[2:20:12] familiar with Milton Ericson perhaps the
[2:20:14] greatest modern master of non-verbal
[2:20:17] communication he was a an amazing
[2:20:20] psychologist he sort of um is the
[2:20:23] inspiration behind um n what's it called
[2:20:27] n help me out here neuro linguistic oh
[2:20:31] the NLP I mean it's kind of a
[2:20:33] bastardization of his ideas but he's he
[2:20:35] created hypnotherapy he's the person who
[2:20:37] created hypnotherapy certainly I uh
[2:20:39] hypnotherapy is is a valid psychiatric
[2:20:41] practice I mean it's excellent clinical
[2:20:44] data to support well Milton Erikson had
[2:20:46] Polio when he was
[2:20:47] 19 and he was paralyzed his entire body
[2:20:50] was par paralyzed he couldn't even move
[2:20:53] his
[2:20:54] eyeballs right and he sat in bed and he
[2:20:56] had a very active mind and he was going
[2:20:59] to just die from sheer boredom and what
[2:21:01] he did during the two years of being
[2:21:04] paralyzed like that was just watching
[2:21:06] People's non-verbal communication and
[2:21:09] making notes in his brain and learning
[2:21:11] every single he learned the 20 different
[2:21:15] forms of yes the hundred different forms
[2:21:17] of no right every intonation how
[2:21:21] somebody entered the room how they left
[2:21:23] the room you know how they looked at him
[2:21:25] with the pity or empathy or something he
[2:21:27] mastered it and then when he became a
[2:21:30] psychiatrist and he treated people they
[2:21:33] thought he was psychic he could see
[2:21:35] everything into them it's because for
[2:21:37] two years that's all he could do was
[2:21:39] Observe them he couldn't speak he
[2:21:41] couldn't do anything he couldn't read a
[2:21:43] book so you have that same power but you
[2:21:47] don't have polio obviously but you have
[2:21:49] to first pay attention to it right it's
[2:21:53] an amazing thing once you do it's a lot
[2:21:56] of fun actually and I tell people go to
[2:21:59] a cafe one day in your city wherever you
[2:22:02] live and just watch people because you
[2:22:05] can't hear them they're a few tables
[2:22:06] away watch their non-verbal Behavior as
[2:22:08] they interact and see if if you pick up
[2:22:11] cues from them and they're things that
[2:22:13] are signs of genuine emotions so for
[2:22:16] instance an exercise you can do is you
[2:22:20] go up to somebody
[2:22:21] from an angle where they can't see you
[2:22:24] coming up to them and you surprise them
[2:22:26] you go hey hey Mike whatever they turn
[2:22:29] for that second their expression reveals
[2:22:31] how they really think about you you'll
[2:22:34] detect if you can pick up micro
[2:22:35] expressions and and you can they're only
[2:22:38] like one 150th of a second but they're
[2:22:42] there you can express a kind of and they
[2:22:44] smile you can see the little disdain in
[2:22:46] their eyes right then the mask comes on
[2:22:50] right right or you're talking to them
[2:22:53] they're looking at you but their feet
[2:22:55] are facing in an opposite direction that
[2:22:58] means that they're dying to get away
[2:23:00] from you kind of thing these are signals
[2:23:02] that you don't necessarily pay attention
[2:23:04] to their posture will tell you
[2:23:06] everything about their levels of
[2:23:08] confidence right on and on and on the
[2:23:11] fake smile if you can just Master the
[2:23:13] ability to detect the fake smile it will
[2:23:16] go wonders for you because you're able
[2:23:18] to see what you really want to do is to
[2:23:21] see the person with a genuine smile
[2:23:23] particularly in romantic
[2:23:25] relationships someone whose face lights
[2:23:27] up a real smile lights your whole face
[2:23:30] up it doesn't light your mouth that
[2:23:33] these parts of your face go up your eyes
[2:23:35] get alive there's like there's like a a
[2:23:38] neuro thing going on in your brain
[2:23:41] that's changing your whole facial
[2:23:42] expression and it means that someone
[2:23:44] genuinely likes you they're genuinely
[2:23:46] interested in you they're genuinely
[2:23:48] laughing or connecting to you man and if
[2:23:51] you can see that it'll help you so much
[2:23:53] in the Romantic realm and then it'll
[2:23:55] help you get away from those toxic
[2:23:58] people that are continually faking
[2:24:00] interest in you because a narcissist a
[2:24:03] toxic
[2:24:04] person thrives by deceiving you with a
[2:24:08] Charming alluring front that makes you
[2:24:11] come into their world then they can hurt
[2:24:13] you then they can do something to you
[2:24:15] right then they have you in in in their
[2:24:17] in their you know in their trap right so
[2:24:20] being able to see that they're not
[2:24:22] genuinely interested in you that they're
[2:24:24] faking it will help you avoid very toxic
[2:24:27] relationships and as I said to you I
[2:24:29] don't know if we were on air or not but
[2:24:31] deep narcissists have dead eyes they
[2:24:34] they almost can't help it they can fake
[2:24:36] the smile they can fake everything else
[2:24:38] but the eyes you have to be able to read
[2:24:41] it because you say well what are dead
[2:24:42] eyes you'll know it when you see it
[2:24:45] there's no life in them they're like
[2:24:47] looking through you they're not looking
[2:24:48] at you they're looking through you what
[2:24:50] can I get of you you're what they call a
[2:24:52] selfobject they're an object for you to
[2:24:54] use and that's how they're looking at
[2:24:56] you like they would look at a hammer or
[2:24:58] something yeah the concept of dead eyes
[2:25:01] and also alive eyes is so fascinating
[2:25:05] because um as audience of this podcast
[2:25:09] will know that because I've said it too
[2:25:11] much but I'll say it again that the eyes
[2:25:12] are the only two pieces of your brain
[2:25:13] that are outside the cranial Vault I
[2:25:15] mean they're literally two pieces of
[2:25:17] brain lining the back of your eyes and
[2:25:19] the Dynamics of the pupils those changes
[2:25:22] of course reflect how bright or dim it
[2:25:23] is in the room but they also reflect
[2:25:25] levels of arousal that are on the
[2:25:27] millisecond time scale so as one
[2:25:29] expresses you know words of um of Glee
[2:25:32] right the pupils constrict a little bit
[2:25:35] believe it or not or excuse me dilate a
[2:25:36] little bit I got it backwards there for
[2:25:38] a moment um and vice versa you know as
[2:25:41] one feels uh less less excited um sort
[2:25:44] of moments of Despair expressions of
[2:25:46] Despair the pupils should get a little
[2:25:48] bit smaller because arousal is going
[2:25:50] down and so I think you know we pick up
[2:25:52] on these things at a unconscious level
[2:25:54] do um the deadness of the eyes is is
[2:25:57] kind of the the um the the conclusion
[2:26:00] that that pops out at us if we're paying
[2:26:02] attention but the problem is it love it
[2:26:04] registers unconsciously but we don't
[2:26:07] give it any value to it we trust our
[2:26:09] words we trust our rationality as
[2:26:11] opposed to our intuitions about people
[2:26:14] so sometimes when you meet a person for
[2:26:15] the first time signals go up in your
[2:26:17] mind brain something's wrong about them
[2:26:20] and then you forget it because you don't
[2:26:22] trust those initial unconscious signals
[2:26:25] that your brain is giving you right so
[2:26:27] you have to you have to first kind of
[2:26:29] trust that this that these intuitions
[2:26:31] are very valuable the other thing is pay
[2:26:34] deep attention to the tone of voice The
[2:26:37] Voice as actors will tell you is like
[2:26:40] the hardest thing to fake right it's
[2:26:43] very hard to fake excitement your voice
[2:26:47] either has it or it doesn't it's very
[2:26:50] hard to fake confidence and you can I
[2:26:53] mean books have been written about that
[2:26:55] I'm not going to go into all the the
[2:26:57] details about it but the person will
[2:26:59] reveal so much of their emotional of the
[2:27:02] emotions that they're experiencing
[2:27:04] particularly levels of confidence you
[2:27:07] know like a trembling Voice or something
[2:27:10] or a booming confident voice which some
[2:27:12] people can fake but often it's very
[2:27:15] difficult you can still see through it
[2:27:17] and on the level of Seduction
[2:27:21] women men are very very attuned to the
[2:27:23] voice of a woman but we're not aware of
[2:27:25] it because the voice of our mother had
[2:27:29] an incredible impact on us in early
[2:27:31] early early childhood her singing her
[2:27:33] the tone of her voice that was probably
[2:27:36] the first seduction that we ever went
[2:27:38] through and a woman's voice has
[2:27:41] tremendous power over us right and so
[2:27:45] hearing a voice that kind of grates or
[2:27:47] irritates you is is something that's
[2:27:49] that's a bad side and that goes deeper
[2:27:51] than all the characteristics that we
[2:27:53] were talking about but a woman's voice
[2:27:56] that kind of reminds you of that mother
[2:27:58] that sing song you whatever feeling it
[2:28:00] was that's that's somebody that's that
[2:28:02] can very easily seduce you yeah there's
[2:28:05] a um there's a place for uh naming this
[2:28:09] of it's like subcortical courtship uh
[2:28:12] you know you know below the cortex as a
[2:28:14] the geeky neuroscientists like myself
[2:28:16] say you know you're getting down below
[2:28:18] the cortex with all of this stuff you
[2:28:19] know convergence of of real uh loves and
[2:28:23] desires I mean we express with words we
[2:28:25] sense the world using of course our
[2:28:26] cortex but we're really talking about
[2:28:28] getting into the the subcortical stuff
[2:28:31] that is the stuff of our history the
[2:28:34] stuff of our um hardwiring and our
[2:28:36] unique our uniqueness I couldn't help
[2:28:38] but think about the fact that earlier we
[2:28:40] were talking about the now you know
[2:28:42] infinitely vast number of choices of
[2:28:44] things to engage in people to engage
[2:28:46] with Etc but at the same time as you
[2:28:49] were now talking about um these micro
[2:28:52] inflections and the subtleties of voice
[2:28:54] and bodily
[2:28:56] communication that whether or not it's
[2:28:59] emojis or people sending filtered images
[2:29:03] or the default to text message
[2:29:05] communication that is so prominent now
[2:29:08] it seems like we now have more choices
[2:29:10] so uh more input
[2:29:13] but the sort of qualitative differences
[2:29:16] between the inputs have been binned into
[2:29:19] a couple of simple bins as if it's as if
[2:29:21] we've um regressed to primary colors
[2:29:24] only um but the canvas is huge or may I
[2:29:27] don't know if that analogy works but you
[2:29:29] you get the idea because ultimately in
[2:29:30] order to develop good choices about
[2:29:32] profession romantic relationships
[2:29:35] friendships you need a lot of examples
[2:29:37] and a lot of information that allows you
[2:29:41] to glean the subtlety um but as long as
[2:29:44] it's emojis and filtered pictures taken
[2:29:46] at a particular angle you know usually
[2:29:48] from above ask for the picture your head
[2:29:50] on and Below send me a picture of your
[2:29:52] worst your worst expression um all of
[2:29:54] that um it seems that there's now
[2:29:58] increased opportunity for deception and
[2:30:01] I don't just mean people misleading
[2:30:03] others I also mean us misleading
[2:30:04] ourselves like oh my goodness how could
[2:30:06] I be so disappointed yet again about
[2:30:10] particular landscape of life it doesn't
[2:30:11] just have to be romantic interactions it
[2:30:13] could be other Landscapes like how could
[2:30:14] I be fooled well you're fooled because
[2:30:16] the the uh the inputs were deficient
[2:30:21] not good data as we say well the thing
[2:30:24] is if things are you're immersed in the
[2:30:27] virtual
[2:30:28] realm it's very very hard to master the
[2:30:32] non-verbal communication aspect which is
[2:30:34] so important so if you're dating from an
[2:30:38] app and you're flipping through and then
[2:30:40] you find that person you've missed out
[2:30:43] on the greatest experience of life which
[2:30:45] is actually having to go out to a bar or
[2:30:48] go to a restaurant or go to a social
[2:30:49] event and have to literally encounter
[2:30:52] another person and deal with looking at
[2:30:55] their their behavior and kind of
[2:30:58] assessing who they are it's a muscle
[2:31:01] that you have to pay attention to
[2:31:03] non-verbal communication and if you're
[2:31:05] just you know going through the Emojis
[2:31:08] or going through the Tinder apps that
[2:31:11] muscle completely atrophies you have no
[2:31:13] power you're not able to decipher
[2:31:15] anything and that's what's happening
[2:31:17] with a lot of people who are using these
[2:31:20] ABS a social skills are like any skill
[2:31:23] at all they you have to develop them
[2:31:26] it's a muscle you have to develop and
[2:31:29] you've all noticed this probably in your
[2:31:30] own life if you've gone through a period
[2:31:32] where you're kind of retreating you
[2:31:35] don't want to be around people and you
[2:31:36] spend a month like that and then you go
[2:31:39] out you feel awkward it takes you like a
[2:31:42] couple days to get used to being around
[2:31:44] other people you say stupid things your
[2:31:46] body language is awkward but if you're
[2:31:48] in a situation for months where you're
[2:31:50] constantly interacting people you're on
[2:31:51] a film set and day in day out day out
[2:31:54] that skill starts developing but you
[2:31:57] have to be out there in the world you
[2:31:58] have to be interacting you have to be
[2:32:00] looking at people's emotions you have to
[2:32:01] be gauging them in real time we're not
[2:32:05] built for virtual encounters we're
[2:32:08] creatures of human of Flesh and Blood
[2:32:11] and we need to be looking at each other
[2:32:12] in the eye and paying attention to all
[2:32:15] these little details these nuances that
[2:32:17] you can only get in person a on those
[2:32:20] lines what are your thoughts about Ai
[2:32:22] and how that's going to shape our um
[2:32:25] sense of self sense of others and
[2:32:27] relationships as if that's a topic that
[2:32:29] could be covered in uh a series of
[2:32:33] minutes but what what are your um what
[2:32:35] are your top Contour maybe even deeper
[2:32:37] thoughts about AI well I'm G to I'm
[2:32:39] going to piss a lot of people off but
[2:32:41] I'm I'm kind of very concerned about it
[2:32:44] um I mentioned before about anxiety the
[2:32:46] role that anxiety plays in thinking you
[2:32:49] come upon an IDE
[2:32:50] idea and you go yeah that's all good
[2:32:53] then you go to the next level and it
[2:32:55] becomes better then you go oh maybe
[2:32:56] that's not so good then you go to the
[2:32:58] next level you go to level three and it
[2:33:00] gets better and better you have anxiety
[2:33:02] another aspect of intelligence is
[2:33:04] self-awareness right the be to look at
[2:33:06] yourself go I have biases I have
[2:33:09] confirmation bias I have conviction bias
[2:33:12] I have recency bias I have to counteract
[2:33:15] these things I also have a dark side I
[2:33:17] have aggression I have to be aware of
[2:33:19] how they color my thinking my emotions
[2:33:22] the third quality that goes into int I'm
[2:33:24] talking about now intelligence not
[2:33:26] artificial intelligence to be able to
[2:33:28] deal anxiety and go to a third level
[2:33:30] intelligence is the ability to look
[2:33:31] inside of yourself and see your own
[2:33:33] biases and the third thing is the
[2:33:35] ability to see a holistic picture the
[2:33:38] kind of aha moment that scientists have
[2:33:41] where you accumulate all kind of data
[2:33:42] points and then out of nowhere an image
[2:33:45] comes to your mind of yeah there's the
[2:33:47] answer you see the whole thing you see
[2:33:49] the whole G
[2:33:50] right Simone vile compared it to a a um
[2:33:55] a square Cube you can only see a cube
[2:33:59] from one side or you can never see a a
[2:34:02] square Cube you can only see a side of
[2:34:04] it if it's rotating you're still only
[2:34:06] seeing sides of it only in your mind can
[2:34:09] you picture the whole thing so the mind
[2:34:11] has to go through a process to have
[2:34:13] holistic thinking if they can invent a
[2:34:16] machine that can deal with anxiety and
[2:34:19] has has anxiety and it can go to level
[2:34:21] three if they can make a machine that
[2:34:24] can be self-aware that can go the people
[2:34:27] who program me have biases therefore I
[2:34:29] have biases I also have a dark side
[2:34:32] because people have programmed me who
[2:34:33] have a dark side if this machine can
[2:34:36] also think holistically beyond all of
[2:34:38] the data points and all the mass of
[2:34:40] information it's combined it can have
[2:34:42] that aha moment all right I can see a
[2:34:45] human consciousness I can see creativity
[2:34:47] there the other thing I would say is
[2:34:50] when I was a student at Berkeley going
[2:34:53] way back I was 19 years old I decided
[2:34:56] One Summer was is a big paradigm shift
[2:34:58] for me I'm going to take this class in
[2:35:01] ancient Greek in six weeks they teach
[2:35:04] you a year of ancient Greek that means
[2:35:08] every day you have an exam every Friday
[2:35:10] you have a final exam eight hours every
[2:35:12] day of a dead language I thought this
[2:35:14] would be the best discipline for me
[2:35:16] after someone who didn't been doing too
[2:35:18] many drugs to be honest with you okay
[2:35:21] and so finally at one point they give us
[2:35:24] this paragraph of the hardest ancient
[2:35:26] Greek writer of all to read this was
[2:35:27] near the end through cities or through
[2:35:29] kitties as they
[2:35:31] say I stared so I had I had like the
[2:35:34] whole night to try and translate one
[2:35:35] paragraph I couldn't figure it out you
[2:35:38] have to understand the the weirdness of
[2:35:40] ancient Greek all the endings the weird
[2:35:43] ways of thinking the whole picture that
[2:35:45] aha moment was eluding me at one point I
[2:35:48] thought I got it and I translated it and
[2:35:50] I gave it to the teacher next day I
[2:35:52] remember he was this kind of hippie that
[2:35:53] you'd have at Berkeley Dennis classic
[2:35:56] Professor but also a hippie the fact
[2:35:57] that you knew his first name is very
[2:35:58] telling I can only remember his first
[2:36:00] name Dennis he he's he said Robert I can
[2:36:03] see your thinking but you need to go to
[2:36:05] another level you missed you didn't have
[2:36:08] that aha moment you didn't put the whole
[2:36:10] thing together you were close but you
[2:36:11] didn't you have to try harder and that
[2:36:13] stuck in my mind forever like whenever I
[2:36:16] have a problem I have to think harder I
[2:36:18] have to go to that next level
[2:36:21] now what would happen if I had pulled
[2:36:23] out my translation of thusi and just
[2:36:26] copied that out right or what have
[2:36:28] happened if I put it through chat GPT
[2:36:31] and it gave me the translation that
[2:36:33] muscle in my brain that I have developed
[2:36:35] for 40 years that allows me to write
[2:36:37] books would never have developed and
[2:36:39] that muscle is I don't know the answer
[2:36:42] here I have to go to another level I
[2:36:44] have to try harder I have to think I
[2:36:46] have to think I have to have that engine
[2:36:48] woring around right but if I just grab
[2:36:50] for chat GPT it's deadened and then
[2:36:53] we're going to have a whole generation
[2:36:55] of people who stop thinking who don't go
[2:36:57] through that process you know you've
[2:36:59] heard of Douglas hter I think he said
[2:37:02] people train to go to Mount Everest it
[2:37:05] takes months physical exertion it's
[2:37:07] painful then they climb M Everest they
[2:37:09] see the top whoa what a great moment he
[2:37:13] said chat PT be the equivalent of taking
[2:37:15] a helicopter to the top of Mount Everest
[2:37:18] without any of that training and having
[2:37:20] the same moment it's not the same right
[2:37:23] you need to go through that process you
[2:37:25] need to go through that pain and if you
[2:37:27] just and the thing of is Chad gbt we
[2:37:29] think we're so modern So Sophisticated
[2:37:32] but really we're just seduced by Magic
[2:37:35] you put it in there and you see the
[2:37:36] scrip
[2:37:37] going whoa It's like magic it's like a
[2:37:40] magician but it's empty it's like not
[2:37:43] your brain functioning right it's p it's
[2:37:46] the Pagan part of us we like that kind
[2:37:48] of magic
[2:37:50] as opposed to actually having to go
[2:37:52] through the thought process itself so
[2:37:55] I'm not in FA against having tools I use
[2:37:58] tools I use the internet I use Google
[2:38:01] I'm searching for like some factoid from
[2:38:04] my book I find it I use it I I like it
[2:38:07] but I've also learned to develop my
[2:38:09] brain to think to get that engine
[2:38:11] constantly moving and I'm deeply
[2:38:14] concerned about G people who can't learn
[2:38:16] a foreign language who can't master
[2:38:18] anything who just immediately grab the
[2:38:20] first answer that it generates etc etc I
[2:38:23] have
[2:38:24] concerns I am too and I was thinking a
[2:38:27] moment ago that you know like some
[2:38:29] people might hear what you just said and
[2:38:31] say oh well the same thing was probably
[2:38:32] said about the automobile like how many
[2:38:34] amazing experiences of walking from one
[2:38:37] place to another are going to be lost
[2:38:39] when people start driving from one place
[2:38:41] to another but I think a key difference
[2:38:45] and this certainly aligns with
[2:38:46] everything you just said is that what
[2:38:48] you're talking about is not just
[2:38:49] arriving at the same destination you're
[2:38:51] saying the destination itself is
[2:38:53] different when one exerts some effort
[2:38:56] and experiences some anxiety to get
[2:38:57] there so it's not the same as automobile
[2:39:00] versus horse versus walking versus
[2:39:02] airplane it's fundamentally different
[2:39:04] because the the journey transforms the
[2:39:06] outcome yeah yeah I I'm in agreement
[2:39:09] with you about many aspects of AI I'm
[2:39:12] also excited about it in the context of
[2:39:13] certain things I I I I agree with you it
[2:39:16] could be a tool but are we operating the
[2:39:19] tool the tool operating us is what I'm
[2:39:21] talking about I am concerned a bit too
[2:39:25] especially in the context of what we've
[2:39:26] been talking about for most of today's
[2:39:28] discussion about um avatars replacing
[2:39:32] our online personas too much um you know
[2:39:36] the
[2:39:37] Avatar of ourselves is already taking
[2:39:40] place through through filters through uh
[2:39:43] reduction of emotional expression to
[2:39:44] emojis through reduction of of language
[2:39:47] to a diminished number of words to
[2:39:49] explain one's feelings you know a prior
[2:39:52] guest on this podcast um Lisa Feldman
[2:39:54] Barrett who's an expert in emotions
[2:39:56] talked about how the moment that a
[2:39:58] culture has a word for a particular
[2:40:01] subset of anxious feelings so so for
[2:40:04] instance she taught me that in Japanese
[2:40:05] there's a word for the sadness one
[2:40:07] experiences when they get a bad haircut
[2:40:09] yeah I know you know and so that
[2:40:12] normalizes the feeling and leads to
[2:40:14] feelings of less despair as opposed to
[2:40:17] what now many kids especially grow up
[2:40:19] Lear learning which I'm anxious I'm sad
[2:40:21] I'm depressed that you know in science
[2:40:23] we say there are lumpers and there are
[2:40:25] Splitters and they've been arguing for
[2:40:26] years about like is that one brain
[2:40:28] structure well if I name those two
[2:40:29] things next to each other two different
[2:40:31] things not only can I name one after
[2:40:32] myself which is what tends to happen so
[2:40:34] to speak but when you have too many
[2:40:36] lumpers or too many Splitters things are
[2:40:38] either overly simple or overly complex
[2:40:41] that of course the right answer the the
[2:40:43] the best use of naming things arve
[2:40:46] someplace in the middle that's how a
[2:40:48] field progresses cuz if you if you lump
[2:40:50] things together too much a field can't
[2:40:51] progress you give yourself the illusion
[2:40:53] that it's progressing but it's not
[2:40:55] progressing but if you split things up
[2:40:56] into a million different subcategories
[2:40:58] like just even the word adrenaline is
[2:41:00] also called epinephrine and that's has
[2:41:02] to do with basically people arguing over
[2:41:04] who got credit crazy and it's confus
[2:41:06] people for for decades yeah and there's
[2:41:08] a there's another story there that and I
[2:41:10] know far too much about the scientists
[2:41:11] involved and the there was a love
[2:41:13] triangle about naming of certain parts
[2:41:15] of the nervous system that oh yeah
[2:41:16] people sleeping with other people's
[2:41:18] partners and love triangles have created
[2:41:20] more drama of gnomen clature in science
[2:41:23] I I could do a whole hour on this um in
[2:41:26] any case I what I'm hearing from you is
[2:41:29] that we cannot afford to lose our sense
[2:41:32] of nuance and also because that sense of
[2:41:35] nuance Taps into what we're really
[2:41:38] experiencing and AI threatens that that
[2:41:41] we can become avatars of oursel well
[2:41:44] look at it this way we we worship
[2:41:47] technology it's our new religion okay
[2:41:50] and we worship chap GPT as if it's a God
[2:41:52] and seriously there's religious elements
[2:41:55] going on here what we really should
[2:41:57] worship is the human brain which is the
[2:42:00] greatest creation in the known universe
[2:42:02] I'm afraid it is the most complex piece
[2:42:05] of matter in the entire universe the
[2:42:07] number of neurons the number of synapses
[2:42:10] the number of possible connections
[2:42:11] between neurons is infinite practically
[2:42:14] infinite it is a wondrous instrument it
[2:42:17] is so powerful we've we've very scratch
[2:42:20] the surface of what we can use for it
[2:42:22] let us worship that brain that's in your
[2:42:24] head you only have so many years to use
[2:42:26] it you have so many use to develop it it
[2:42:29] is so wonderful and Powerful that can
[2:42:30] bring you such pleasure so much power in
[2:42:33] life so tools are fine we all need tools
[2:42:37] we all need we need hammers we need
[2:42:39] Nails we need saws Etc but the real
[2:42:42] thing is the hand that uses it the brain
[2:42:43] that connects the hand to the Hammer
[2:42:45] that knows how to to hit things you know
[2:42:48] I think of the of the um the great
[2:42:51] painter Renoir in the 19th century he
[2:42:55] had like a a stroke or something that
[2:42:58] the last years he couldn't move his
[2:43:01] right arm which was she painted with and
[2:43:03] it was disastrous so what he did is he
[2:43:06] put the brush in his mouth and he
[2:43:08] painted and he painted some beautiful
[2:43:10] paintings that way because his brain had
[2:43:13] mastered the art of painting not his
[2:43:16] hand but his brain had mastered it so
[2:43:18] well that he could actually paint well
[2:43:20] with the brush in his mouth because he
[2:43:22] could direct it and he he had the
[2:43:24] knowledge of how to make something
[2:43:26] perfect the brain is absolutely
[2:43:28] incredible the plasticity of the brain
[2:43:30] which I'm discovering after my stroke is
[2:43:33] absolutely a miracle you know what I
[2:43:36] don't know is it Professor Schwarz at
[2:43:38] UCLA who was studying OCD and how he was
[2:43:42] able to kind of cure people of OCD
[2:43:44] through certain plasticity exercises
[2:43:47] that he had making them aware of their
[2:43:49] kind of brain lock Etc and getting them
[2:43:52] out of it the that plasticity of the
[2:43:55] brain is by far the greatest Miracle of
[2:43:58] all and it goes on into your 60s and 70s
[2:44:01] and on onward let's all get down on our
[2:44:04] hands and knees and worship the brain
[2:44:06] and if we did it would create a complete
[2:44:09] shift in our values and we wouldn't be
[2:44:11] so instantly seduced and enamored and
[2:44:15] worshiping the technology we would
[2:44:17] worship the brains that create the
[2:44:19] technology
[2:44:20] instead of you know the other way around
[2:44:22] I certainly got a fan of brains and
[2:44:24] their uh potential for plasticity
[2:44:27] sitting over here uh I have the benefit
[2:44:31] of having my scientific
[2:44:32] great-grandparents are Hub and weasel
[2:44:34] who won the Nobel Prize for
[2:44:35] neuroplasticity during the critical
[2:44:36] period say that again so my scientific
[2:44:39] great-grandparents are David hubel and
[2:44:40] toron visel David's dead torsten's still
[2:44:42] alive he's 96 and they won the Nobel
[2:44:45] Prize for essentially discovering the
[2:44:47] critical window early in development
[2:44:49] where plasticity is especially robust
[2:44:51] they did other things too they should
[2:44:52] have won two nobels frankly uh for their
[2:44:54] other work on Vision but um one thing
[2:44:57] that they missed however was something
[2:44:59] that you mentioned and is worth
[2:45:01] highlighting again which is that the
[2:45:03] brain maintains the capacity for immense
[2:45:06] plasticity throughout the entire
[2:45:08] lifespan that's absolutely clear the
[2:45:11] conditions change from early to later in
[2:45:12] life but your specific situation really
[2:45:15] highlights that and it's something I'd
[2:45:16] really like to um talk about for a few
[2:45:18] minutes if if you're willing um as you
[2:45:20] mentioned you experienced a stroke um
[2:45:23] and perhaps uh it was aware to some but
[2:45:27] perhaps not all especially the people
[2:45:29] just listening to this podcast and who
[2:45:30] are not watching on video that um your
[2:45:33] shirt while very nicely designed um in
[2:45:36] uh in its original state also includes
[2:45:38] some unique stitching so maybe you could
[2:45:40] share with us uh what and for those
[2:45:42] listening there's a there's a jagged
[2:45:44] line of stitching that um extends from
[2:45:47] uh Robert's uh left short sleeve to his
[2:45:50] midline to where the buttons on his
[2:45:52] shirt are and from the from his right
[2:45:54] short sleeve also to the midline offset
[2:45:56] from one another these um this is the
[2:45:58] sort of stitching that looks like
[2:45:59] perhaps I had been at the sewing machine
[2:46:02] um and not somebody was uh skilled but
[2:46:04] they did a good job basically putting it
[2:46:06] back together why are those stitches in
[2:46:08] your shirt tell us about the stroke and
[2:46:10] let's let's talk about neuroplasticity
[2:46:12] it could also seem like a fashion
[2:46:13] statement you know but it really it
[2:46:15] isn't um well it was May of 2018 it was
[2:46:20] my birthday and my wife gave me this
[2:46:23] shirt I have a love of plaids it's like
[2:46:25] I don't know why I just love patterns
[2:46:28] and plaids must be like some Scotch part
[2:46:30] of me some ancestor thing but I love
[2:46:33] plaids C can I interrupt you just
[2:46:34] briefly forgive me everyone's going to
[2:46:35] get upset that interrupt do you know
[2:46:37] that there is a fundamental circuit in
[2:46:39] your visual cortex designed to detect
[2:46:42] plaid patterns no I did not yes and we
[2:46:45] can talk about why that is it's tightly
[2:46:46] tightly linked to your ability to
[2:46:48] perceive motion really yeah and we can
[2:46:50] go over it some other time but yeah so
[2:46:52] we'll talk about just as a cue so okay
[2:46:55] yes back to your birthday okay so she
[2:46:57] gave me a plaid shirt knowing how much I
[2:46:58] loved it and I love this shirt I love
[2:47:00] the colors in it etc etc and then two
[2:47:04] months three months later August 17 2018
[2:47:08] I was driving my car she was with me I
[2:47:11] was pulling out into traffic I started
[2:47:13] driving and suddenly she's saying pull
[2:47:15] over Robert pull over go why why I can
[2:47:17] drive I'm fine and then suddenly
[2:47:20] everything started getting really
[2:47:22] strange everything looked strange my
[2:47:26] voice didn't sound the same and she was
[2:47:29] like freaking out but she was actually
[2:47:31] fairly calm which was amazing I was
[2:47:34] undergoing a stroke I had a blood clot
[2:47:36] that was blocking the bra blood flow to
[2:47:38] my brain I actually at one point got out
[2:47:41] of the car like I was I don't know what
[2:47:43] the hell I was thinking and then she
[2:47:46] pulled me back in and then the rest goes
[2:47:47] blank and I had had some weird
[2:47:50] Sensations that still remain with me
[2:47:53] because essentially I was on the verge
[2:47:56] of dying because blood not flowing to
[2:47:59] your brain is basically the end of you
[2:48:01] right unless something happens very
[2:48:03] quickly and she either that or you're
[2:48:07] can to get severe brain damage so she
[2:48:09] called 911 right away she recognized
[2:48:11] something my whole face was looking
[2:48:13] funny and they got there I was
[2:48:16] unconscious and essentially they took
[2:48:19] the his shirt and I just scissored the
[2:48:20] thing in half and took it off my head
[2:48:23] and then they intubated me I believe in
[2:48:26] my hip area to get something the blood
[2:48:28] clot was in my neck and they were able
[2:48:31] to free it up and they rushed me to the
[2:48:33] hospital and I'm unconscious and then um
[2:48:37] I wake up and I'm in a gurnie in the
[2:48:41] hospital and I don't for a moment I'm
[2:48:43] thinking maybe I'm dead because I'm
[2:48:46] lying in a gurnie and I almost feel like
[2:48:47] I'm in a coffin I don't know what what's
[2:48:49] going on and I have all of these weird
[2:48:53] Sensations and I I tell people we're so
[2:48:57] curious about death we think about death
[2:48:59] a lot and you know is it final what does
[2:49:03] it mean we really should pay attention
[2:49:05] to
[2:49:06] dying dying is actually much more
[2:49:09] interesting in some ways than death and
[2:49:13] people who have died go through a
[2:49:15] process if it if it's long enough and
[2:49:17] people who have had near-death
[2:49:18] experience experiences like I do have
[2:49:20] gone through that process of dying and
[2:49:22] have come back to life and in the
[2:49:25] process of
[2:49:26] dying strange things happen to the brain
[2:49:30] right so particularly with a stroke or
[2:49:32] something like that where blood stops
[2:49:33] flowing to your oxygen stops flowing to
[2:49:36] your brain you have kind of visions and
[2:49:39] things that you might think are
[2:49:41] hallucinations but that later seem like
[2:49:44] actually you are actually glimpsing the
[2:49:47] reality as opposed to the illus that the
[2:49:49] brain creates so I've written about this
[2:49:53] in my new book but um my idea of the
[2:49:56] brain is that it creates endless series
[2:49:58] of Illusions for you it creates this
[2:50:00] seamless version of reality the sense of
[2:50:03] a self the sense of a continuous self
[2:50:06] Through Time right it creates a linear
[2:50:09] sense of time progressions it creates
[2:50:12] colors it creates a world that visually
[2:50:15] you can seems familiar and etc etc but
[2:50:17] it's all illusion it's all a
[2:50:20] construction right images come into your
[2:50:23] brain and they're not organized in any
[2:50:25] way and the Brain organizes in a way
[2:50:27] that you can understand it well when
[2:50:29] you're dying all of that scrambles up
[2:50:32] and you actually are seeing something
[2:50:34] else so I saw for instance that I really
[2:50:38] don't have a self that it doesn't really
[2:50:41] actually exist that I'm and the image
[2:50:44] that came to my mind because it was in
[2:50:46] sitting in that gurnie was a weird feel
[2:50:49] feeling
[2:50:50] of like I can almost not explain it but
[2:50:54] it's as if you took an image of
[2:50:56] something real in the world and you
[2:50:58] completely scrambled it up and it was
[2:50:59] all wavy and you couldn't see what
[2:51:02] exactly it was to me that was the image
[2:51:04] I had of the self there are like 50
[2:51:07] different selves inside of you that are
[2:51:10] all competing and you think there's just
[2:51:12] one and you think it's consistent but
[2:51:14] there's not it's an illusion the self is
[2:51:16] literally an illusion that your brain
[2:51:18] constructs
[2:51:19] when you're dying you see these things
[2:51:21] when you're dying you see other things
[2:51:23] like that you see that time is something
[2:51:26] very weird so I had experience of when I
[2:51:30] got out of the car and I got pulled in I
[2:51:33] thought like 10 seconds had passed my
[2:51:37] wife told me no those those was like 10
[2:51:39] minutes I had no sense of time
[2:51:41] everything was scrambled and so it was
[2:51:45] very very El it taught me so much things
[2:51:48] that I can I can barely even expressed
[2:51:50] now I'm always now thinking of strange
[2:51:53] things that come to me because my brain
[2:51:55] was damaged it made me realize that the
[2:51:58] brain creates everything so I can't
[2:52:03] communicate with my hand my fingers I
[2:52:06] can't communicate my brain can't
[2:52:07] communicate with my leg right so you
[2:52:10] think that walking and writing and
[2:52:13] handling things is just your your body
[2:52:15] operating a certain way it's your brain
[2:52:18] telling you how to move these different
[2:52:20] things when that brain stops functioning
[2:52:22] you realize how much your brain
[2:52:24] determines everything it all starts
[2:52:26] there and when there's damage to your
[2:52:28] brain your whole thinking Alters Etc not
[2:52:32] to mention how you look at life itself
[2:52:34] after something like that so it was a
[2:52:38] terrible experience it's ruined so many
[2:52:41] things that I loved in life but it's
[2:52:43] given me an awful lot as well in return
[2:52:45] that I could go on for hours and talk
[2:52:48] about because
[2:52:49] it was the most powerful experience of
[2:52:51] my
[2:52:53] life when you were going through your
[2:52:57] reemergence to Consciousness in the
[2:53:00] hospital did you feel as if you were
[2:53:03] observing these multiple versions of
[2:53:05] yourself um maybe a different way to
[2:53:07] phrase it is did you feel you were sort
[2:53:10] of behind the circuit board that is your
[2:53:12] brain observing how you normally
[2:53:14] function and you could see multiple
[2:53:15] versions of self or was it something
[2:53:17] else where you sort of outside of your
[2:53:19] body and brain I think it was more
[2:53:21] outside of my body and brain I also had
[2:53:24] this other thing that happened
[2:53:26] where I you know sometimes you can't
[2:53:28] reme your memory might be playing tricks
[2:53:31] on you so I've also have to realize that
[2:53:33] maybe I'm not remembering exactly what
[2:53:35] happened or that I've since translated
[2:53:37] in a different way so that's a caveat
[2:53:39] here and I'm aware of it but I had this
[2:53:42] Vision that I was dead at first when I
[2:53:45] first became conscious and that I was up
[2:53:47] in the sky and I was looking down and my
[2:53:50] mother and my wife were talking and was
[2:53:53] like over my grave I suppose and I had
[2:53:56] this feeling huh everything's okay I'm
[2:54:00] gone but life goes on they're they're
[2:54:02] doing fine it's okay right so I don't
[2:54:06] know about that sense of self whether it
[2:54:08] was like I'm aware of it happening but I
[2:54:10] have a feeling it was something from the
[2:54:13] outside I don't really know the answer
[2:54:16] to that because it's very confused the
[2:54:18] other feeling I had was life when I was
[2:54:22] having the stroke was life draining out
[2:54:24] of me and my bones getting softer and
[2:54:26] softer and softer and I can't really
[2:54:29] logically explain that the feeling of
[2:54:31] Bones softening up and
[2:54:34] dissolving but for weeks and months
[2:54:36] afterwards I could access that feeling
[2:54:38] of my bones dissolving Etc it was a
[2:54:41] feeling
[2:54:42] of all your energy draining out of you
[2:54:45] and you're dying literally so um reading
[2:54:49] books about near-death experiences cuz
[2:54:51] that's a lot of what I'm big part of my
[2:54:53] next book God is it's fascinating
[2:54:56] there's so many interesting things to go
[2:54:57] in because it teaches us so
[2:55:00] much I'm so glad a you survived your
[2:55:03] stroke B that your mental faculties he's
[2:55:06] not more grateful than I am I tell I
[2:55:08] probably not but still very grateful so
[2:55:10] there it just um illustrates how
[2:55:12] grateful you must be um B that you've
[2:55:16] maintained if not grown your mental fact
[2:55:18] faculties I mean you seem extremely
[2:55:20] sharp um I promise you you're not
[2:55:22] missing a beat uh you know one always
[2:55:24] wonders right actually one of the most
[2:55:25] common fears people have is that somehow
[2:55:27] they're losing their mind or their
[2:55:28] memory and people aren't and they aren't
[2:55:30] aware of it you know you hear I have
[2:55:32] family members who have asked that if
[2:55:34] they ever start to exhibit signs of
[2:55:35] severe dementia that I um well put an
[2:55:38] end to them which I won't um that's not
[2:55:41] my place in this world um but I think
[2:55:43] it's a common fear among uh among people
[2:55:46] but you're still extremely sharp uh and
[2:55:48] thank good for it and you mentioned that
[2:55:50] um while you've lost certain abilities
[2:55:53] that new appreciation and new abilities
[2:55:56] have surfaced um could you perhaps share
[2:55:58] what some of those are and and what they
[2:56:00] mean to you um because I think that when
[2:56:03] one hears about somebody having a stroke
[2:56:05] we tend to focus on what's what's
[2:56:07] lacking but clearly this has been a
[2:56:09] transformative experience also in
[2:56:11] positive ways well uh I had to confront
[2:56:14] some of my own demons I had to confront
[2:56:16] the sense that um I expected things out
[2:56:19] of life and here they're taken away and
[2:56:24] I'm I'm I'm kind of ungrateful for being
[2:56:26] alive and here I'm pissed off that it
[2:56:28] takes me 10 minutes to tie my shoes and
[2:56:30] I can't really button my shirt I had to
[2:56:33] learn what really matters and to have
[2:56:34] patience and stuff the other thing
[2:56:38] was I used to love hiking I was very
[2:56:41] physically active and I'm sitting at my
[2:56:42] window in my office and see people
[2:56:45] running up and down bicycling walking
[2:56:47] their dogs God I'm so envious if I had
[2:56:51] if I could walk a dog right now I'd be
[2:56:54] the happiest person alive but then I go
[2:56:57] through a thought process which maybe
[2:56:58] isn't completely healthy which is
[2:57:01] they're not aware of how wonderful it is
[2:57:04] just to walk a dog but I'm aware of it
[2:57:07] so when I go out in my backyard and I
[2:57:09] can't walk and I'm seeing like I know
[2:57:13] this is going to sound really trically
[2:57:15] and sentimental but I see you know
[2:57:19] butterflies or things in my garden I'm
[2:57:21] like wow that's incredible you know
[2:57:25] things like that that I I couldn't
[2:57:26] appreciate before because I'm I'm
[2:57:30] sedentary and I can't move I have to
[2:57:32] suddenly pay attention to what's around
[2:57:34] me not take it for granted and find and
[2:57:37] suck all the pleasure out of it that I
[2:57:39] can so now when I sit at my desk to
[2:57:44] write my new book it's 4 hours because
[2:57:47] that's all I can stand maybe three
[2:57:49] sometimes those 4 hours are like such
[2:57:52] Bliss for me I truly appreciate it now
[2:57:55] because I know that my brain was almost
[2:57:58] gone right so it means so much for me
[2:58:01] and to just be alive you know is is is
[2:58:05] is just a wondrous experience I have a
[2:58:07] chapter in my new book called awaken to
[2:58:10] the strangeness of being alive and it's
[2:58:13] about the fact that if you think about
[2:58:16] it and how unlikely it is that we humans
[2:58:20] evolved at all even that we even exist
[2:58:23] all the bottlenecks and evolution that
[2:58:25] we had to pass through including The
[2:58:27] Disappearance of the dinosaurs and the
[2:58:29] emergence of manimals but there are 20
[2:58:31] other huge bottlenecks throughout the
[2:58:32] history of evolution we had to pass
[2:58:35] through all of those we nearly went
[2:58:37] extinct 80,000 years ago from some virus
[2:58:40] that infected there were only 8,000
[2:58:41] people humans on the
[2:58:43] planet all these different things and
[2:58:46] here we are with zoom meetings etc etc
[2:58:49] it's like the strangest story you can
[2:58:51] ever it's beyond science fiction but
[2:58:53] nobody thinks about it nobody sits down
[2:58:56] and goes God I'm alive if you went back
[2:59:00] to the chain of people that had to
[2:59:02] connect and have children leading up to
[2:59:05] your parents the unlikeliness of you
[2:59:07] ever being born is astronomical I mean
[2:59:11] unless my science is all wrong you know
[2:59:14] 70,000 generations of people meeting etc
[2:59:17] etc finally ending at your DNA I mean
[2:59:20] unless I'm missing something it's it's
[2:59:23] pretty
[2:59:23] unlikely but nobody thinks about it well
[2:59:26] I certainly think about it now
[2:59:28] because I almost died I have nothing
[2:59:31] else to think about that's I have to
[2:59:32] entertain my brain the way Milton
[2:59:34] Ericson had to entertain himself by
[2:59:36] observing people so it's taken a lot
[2:59:39] away from me I can't swim I'm writing my
[2:59:42] my recumbent bike which I love and
[2:59:45] 80-year-old grandmothers are zipping by
[2:59:47] me and God damn it how awful I'm so
[2:59:51] envious I'm so my insecurities all well
[2:59:54] up but then I realize hey I'm I'm like
[2:59:56] I'm I'm like on a boat I'm sailing it's
[2:59:58] wonderful I'm outside you know I have to
[3:00:00] go through these processes but I think
[3:00:02] it's developed me in some way that's
[3:00:04] that's in the end very positive sounds
[3:00:07] like you've had to adjust to a new frame
[3:00:09] rate on life like that the the old movie
[3:00:12] had a certain frame rate this movie has
[3:00:13] a certain frame rate but that within
[3:00:15] that frame rate there are gifts to be
[3:00:18] that you certainly missed in your prior
[3:00:21] version of self is that is that a yeah
[3:00:23] but also like I tell people this I
[3:00:27] totally took my life for granted I I was
[3:00:30] swimming all this time I was fantastic I
[3:00:33] was bicycling I was traveling but I
[3:00:36] never sat back and thought wow this is
[3:00:38] wonderful how grateful it is could be
[3:00:40] taken away from you I tell people don't
[3:00:43] do that to yourself I try and teach them
[3:00:45] it can be taken away from you tomorrow
[3:00:47] when you're out walking the think of me
[3:00:49] think of me that can't walk the dog and
[3:00:52] appreciate those things which I didn't
[3:00:54] appreciate so I try and help people in
[3:00:56] that way when I can you
[3:00:58] know I think uh critical message is also
[3:01:03] to inspire a sense of urgency in people
[3:01:06] you know I think people hear a sense of
[3:01:07] urgency and they go oh God I'm already
[3:01:09] under so much pressure life's so hard
[3:01:11] but we're not talking about a sense of
[3:01:12] urgency to take on more of what life has
[3:01:14] to offer uh I think we're talking about
[3:01:17] a sense of urgency
[3:01:18] to find one's purpose which takes work
[3:01:23] and is an ongoing process but to really
[3:01:26] get out of modes of apathy laziness um
[3:01:31] languishing and to start as you've
[3:01:34] described it paying deeper attention I
[3:01:36] mean this is a a concept that was super
[3:01:41] important for me to hear about and I
[3:01:43] learned about it from you was how do you
[3:01:45] get yourself out of a rut you start
[3:01:46] paying deeper attention to the things
[3:01:49] around you and inside you and um perhaps
[3:01:52] not coincidentally you referred to that
[3:01:54] as quote death ground yeah so um it's
[3:02:00] what it's a strategy from my book I
[3:02:03] wrote wrote a book on strategy my
[3:02:05] version of The Art of War it's called 33
[3:02:07] Strategies of War but it's really about
[3:02:09] strategy the Strategic thinking it's
[3:02:12] inspired from sunu the great Chinese
[3:02:15] strategist but it has vast philosophy
[3:02:18] iCal
[3:02:20] implications the idea
[3:02:22] is you can almost think of it like
[3:02:25] barometric pressure when necessity is
[3:02:28] pressing in on you like your back is
[3:02:31] against the wall like you have to get
[3:02:33] something done and there's like this
[3:02:35] pressure around you you find energy in
[3:02:38] there that you never believed before
[3:02:40] William James talks about this when he
[3:02:42] talks about getting a second wind he
[3:02:44] explains it very eloquently when you
[3:02:46] feel like your life's in danger
[3:02:49] suddenly you can you can leap over
[3:02:50] things that you never could leap over
[3:02:52] before so sunsu says put an Army on
[3:02:56] death ground and it will fight and until
[3:02:58] it's it wins meaning put an army with
[3:03:02] its back to the ocean or a back to the
[3:03:04] mountain and it's either win or die
[3:03:07] they're going to fight 10 times harder
[3:03:09] you're going to find the energy in you
[3:03:11] that you normally lack when death is
[3:03:13] facing you in the face or urgency or
[3:03:16] deadlines or people pressing in on you
[3:03:19] when that barometric pressure loosens up
[3:03:21] and there's none of it you think you
[3:03:23] have all the time in the world you get
[3:03:25] nothing
[3:03:26] done wow man I'm
[3:03:29] 23 I've got all these years ahead of me
[3:03:31] I'm going to figure it out right I'm not
[3:03:33] going to die I got 50 70 80 years ahead
[3:03:36] of me no you don't that pressure now is
[3:03:39] gone and you're wasting time you're
[3:03:42] you're you're doing all sorts of things
[3:03:43] that aren't leading to any kind of skill
[3:03:45] you're not learning or anything you need
[3:03:47] to put yourself on death ground you need
[3:03:49] to feel that barometric pressure which
[3:03:52] is the actual reality the actual reality
[3:03:55] is you could die tomorrow you could have
[3:03:57] a stroke tomorrow you you could be fired
[3:03:59] tomorrow everything could fall apart you
[3:04:02] need to have that sense of urgency now
[3:04:04] because that's the reality you're
[3:04:06] fooling yourself by thinking you have
[3:04:08] all of this time and so when you feel
[3:04:11] that
[3:04:12] pressure suddenly you can move mountains
[3:04:15] you you have energy your life you you
[3:04:18] know you just have Focus Etc
[3:04:20] neurologically everything Clicks in you
[3:04:23] know and people who've had that
[3:04:26] experience where they've where they felt
[3:04:29] like the the ship was going under and
[3:04:31] they better get their act together and
[3:04:32] survive they talk about all these
[3:04:35] physical processes I have a story in my
[3:04:38] new book I I hope I'm not boring you
[3:04:39] here with all
[3:04:41] no quite the opposite about a mountain
[3:04:44] climber who
[3:04:46] um he he he was climbing this mountain
[3:04:50] by himself and he was having a great
[3:04:52] time but there was a storm coming and he
[3:04:53] had to get down and he suddenly fell and
[3:04:57] he cut his leg open massively and there
[3:05:00] was like a branch sticking in it and he
[3:05:03] he broke all these bones and he was he
[3:05:05] was going to die he was on a Ledge he
[3:05:07] could see that it was getting dark and
[3:05:09] and storm clouds were were massing there
[3:05:12] was going to be this was in the Rocky
[3:05:14] Mountains he was alone and suddenly he
[3:05:17] met managed to get up on his two
[3:05:20] feet and he can't explain how but all of
[3:05:23] this energy all this adrenaline started
[3:05:25] flowing in him and he said he was like a
[3:05:27] mountain goat he was like going down the
[3:05:29] ledge he he jumped he was able to kind
[3:05:31] of get down to another ledge he he got
[3:05:33] it he got out of it and for the for the
[3:05:36] next 20 years he was haunted by how did
[3:05:39] that happen I want that feeling again
[3:05:42] because it was actually the most
[3:05:43] ecstatic feeling I had energy that I
[3:05:46] never suspected in myself and so he
[3:05:48] tries everything to get that feeling
[3:05:51] back he tries climbing other mounts he
[3:05:53] tries going to to Mount Everest he tries
[3:05:56] and it doesn't come back and finally he
[3:05:58] kind of figures out the formula for it
[3:06:01] and why it happened he studies a lot of
[3:06:03] Neuroscience it's a great book I'm using
[3:06:06] it in my new book it's called bone bone
[3:06:08] games it's very interesting book a lot
[3:06:11] of Science in it um and he got the
[3:06:14] feeling back in a smaller sense
[3:06:18] but it was the feeling of your life is
[3:06:22] in danger I better get my act together
[3:06:24] or it's the end and suddenly adrenaline
[3:06:28] dopamine all the other things were
[3:06:30] occurring in him and he got and and he
[3:06:32] found that energy so um that's that's
[3:06:35] the ultimate kind of death ground right
[3:06:38] there the human will to live is truly
[3:06:42] incredible and so now I have to
[3:06:45] say as I said before I'm so grateful
[3:06:48] that your stroke didn't take you out
[3:06:52] because clearly there's still so much in
[3:06:54] there and you're continuing to share uh
[3:06:58] what is really
[3:07:00] exquisitly useful knowledge oh thank you
[3:07:03] it's just it's just kind of astonishing
[3:07:05] to me I started off today's discussion
[3:07:09] expressing my gratitude for what you've
[3:07:11] already done for my life and for the
[3:07:12] lives of so many other people through
[3:07:14] your books you know it's clear you've
[3:07:16] been on a a for foraging exploration and
[3:07:21] that foraging for organizing and
[3:07:23] communicating information mainly in the
[3:07:25] form of written books but also online
[3:07:28] content you have a terrific YouTube
[3:07:29] channel which I subscribe to and follow
[3:07:32] and um and listen to um with wrapped
[3:07:35] attention uh and the other venues with
[3:07:37] which you share information including
[3:07:39] this one today are really truly valuable
[3:07:43] and appreciated so I I want to say on
[3:07:46] behalf of myself and
[3:07:48] um for those that have known you in your
[3:07:50] work for a number of years but also for
[3:07:51] the many people that are now sure to um
[3:07:54] know who you are and what you're about
[3:07:56] that it's just so clear that like this
[3:07:57] stuff comes from the heart and that it
[3:07:59] whatever early seed planted this you
[3:08:02] know um that we're all grateful for and
[3:08:06] better off as a consequence of that that
[3:08:07] seed so uh I could make this list very
[3:08:12] very long with the the number of
[3:08:13] specific ways in which you've um
[3:08:16] improved the journey through life and
[3:08:18] made it clearer I mean you know life is
[3:08:20] certainly can be hard but it also can be
[3:08:23] really confusing and I feel that the the
[3:08:26] Robert Green uh road map even though
[3:08:29] it's but one road map is an extremely
[3:08:31] valuable map to have and to use
[3:08:34] certainly has been for me so um just an
[3:08:38] enormous thank you Robert thanks for
[3:08:40] sharing today and thanks for all you do
[3:08:42] and all that you're still doing and sure
[3:08:44] to do in the future oh thank you I I
[3:08:46] wish I could find the word for
[3:08:48] explaining the kind of weird emotions
[3:08:49] that I'm feeling when I hear that there
[3:08:51] isn't maybe Yiddish maybe if for CLT or
[3:08:54] something I don't know but thank you
[3:08:57] yeah well we'll have to have you back
[3:08:59] here again uh when your next book comes
[3:09:01] out um can't wait but we will wait okay
[3:09:05] yeah hopefully I'm still around I I I'm
[3:09:08] confident you will be okay okay good
[3:09:11] thank you come back thanks very much I
[3:09:13] hope I will thank you for joining me for
[3:09:15] today's discussion with Robert Green I
[3:09:17] hope you found conversation to be as
[3:09:19] stimulating as I did if you're learning
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[3:11:16] [Music]