Why Small Talk Fails and How Conversation Builds Connection

Sep 30, 2026

9 min read

Watch · 6

Start with a question so common it barely registers as a question: "Been busy?" Vanessa Van Edwards, the behavioral researcher behind the bestselling books Captivate and Cues and the forthcoming Conversation, calls it the single worst thing you can say at the start of an exchange. In a long, unscripted conversation with host Lewis Howes, she goes after the habits that leave people lonely in rooms full of other people: small talk run on autopilot, voice notes that feel like contact but aren't, and a directive, transactional way of speaking that AI is quietly teaching us. Her central claim is that good conversation works on three levels, from basic facts up to the private story a person tells about their own life, and that the stakes are physical as well as social. Real-time talk with another human being releases oxytocin and sharpens our ability to read people. The episode runs just over 81 minutes. What follows is the argument, drawn from the moments where it sharpens most.

The problem with "been busy" is less about etiquette than about what it makes the other person's mind do. Van Edwards opens the episode with a diagnosis that is almost mechanical:

"You are literally asking the other person's brain to search for negativity. You're literally reminding them of all the reasons why they shouldn't be in conversation with you."
— Vanessa Van Edwards, on Lewis Howes's show, 0:00

Her description of the brain's response is vivid. Asked "been busy," it starts pulling examples: busy, busy, busy, until it finds one. If the answer is yes, the listener has to inventory their overload, which is a heavy thing to hand someone at a dinner table. If the answer is no, they risk sounding like they have nothing going on, which is an awkward thing to admit. Either way the question has no room in it. It asks for a status report and offers nothing to build on.

The alternative she reaches for is a shift from facts to stories. The episode's own summary frames her argument this way: asking for stories beats asking for facts every time. A fact answers the question and stops. A story gives the other person something to respond to, to ask about, and to extend. That difference is the hinge of the whole conversation about connection.

The framework from her book Conversation moves in three steps. The first is the level of basic facts, the information that circulates in nearly every introduction. Van Edwards uses a fact-level question about how many children someone has as her example, then labels that surface layer "level one" around the 13:08 mark. Facts are not worthless; they are the doorway. The trouble is that many conversations never walk through it.

The description of the book carries the framework up to its deepest layer: the private story you tell yourself about yourself. That is where a person's interpretation of their own life lives, and it is the material that makes another person feel genuinely known. The practical implication is that the questions you ask determine which level you reach. A question about facts gets a fact back. A question about meaning, history, or how something felt opens the door a little further, and the next question can go further still.

This is where the conversation turns most contemporary. Van Edwards notes that AI is now a daily conversational partner for many people, including herself, used for sharpening communication and checking that a message says the right thing. She describes watching her husband talk to an AI model, issuing instructions in a clipped, corrective way, and then turning to her and having to shift gears. Her summary of that mode is precise:

"When we're talking to AI, we are using a kind of conversational muscle, very directive, very assertive, not polite, not about connection, not about reciprocity."
— Vanessa Van Edwards, on Lewis Howes's show, 3:08

Her worry is not that AI is rude. It is that we practice one set of conversational reflexes with machines and then carry them into rooms with colleagues, partners, and friends, where reciprocity is the entire point. Howes responds with an analogy from his own football years, when a long afternoon of hitting was followed by the expectation of stepping out of that mode and showering off the aggression. Van Edwards agrees that this is a switch people have to learn to manage.

Her answer to the problem is to treat conversation like a gym. We lift weights to build our biceps; we build conversational strength by practicing the reps that matter. Listening is one of them: nodding, making eye contact, holding a story or a piece of research in mind while someone talks. The point is that social skill is trained, and if most of our repetitions now happen in a text box or a chatbot, the muscles we exercise are not always the ones our relationships need.

Van Edwards describes her own situation as someone who has recently moved, with most of her closest friends now across the country. She and her friends send each other voice notes that run long, sometimes nine minutes. She is candid about what that format lacks:

"Now that is not conversation, but it feels like conversation, right? I'm actually talking to my phone... I have no feedback. I have no eye contact."
— Vanessa Van Edwards, on Lewis Howes's show, 4:30

The missing elements are the ones that make talk work in real time: a reaction you can see, a vocalization that tells the speaker they've been heard, a follow-up that says "can I double click on that for just a second?" or pushes back. In her framing, a real conversation is a loop, with a message going out and something coming back. A voice note is a message that never gets its reply in the moment. That gap, she argues, is part of why so many people feel deeply in touch with others on a screen and still lonely.

She also points to the competition for attention. Our conversations are now, in her words, "directly competing with our phones," and the feed usually wins because it offers more dopamine. Her conclusion is that questions and stories have to be good enough to pull someone off the phone at all.

The most striking part of the episode is the chemistry Van Edwards describes. She says the reason she wrote the book is that there is a blueprint under conversation that matters a great deal, and she locates the first piece of it in oxytocin, which she calls the chemical of love and connection. Synchronous contact, meaning a live exchange with another person rather than a recording or a chatbot, triggers it. Importantly, she says that phone calls and video calls still produce oxytocin, so live audio and video count.

"The untalked about benefit of good conversation is oxytocin improves our social cognition. Meaning if we are having synchronous conversation, we both become better at reading people."
— Vanessa Van Edwards, on Lewis Howes's show, 6:01

That means better reading of faces, of the nuance in a voice, and of whether a statement was true. Her example is a voice that cracks mid-sentence and the instinct to ask whether the person is okay. The social benefit compounds: better readers feel more capable with people, which builds confidence. She also describes dopamine as part of the reward, the chemical of pleasure that makes good conversation feel good as well as useful. The argument is that connection is not sentimental. It changes how accurately we perceive the people we are with.

Against that backdrop she places a stark number: one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness, a figure the episode description cites and one she says is getting worse, not better. Her explanation is that we think we are having conversations, while the connection we need is missing. She describes the social feed in similar terms: "I am now finding out my friends are pregnant, getting married, and get a promotion over LinkedIn and Instagram," she says, and then adds that she cannot remember the last time someone sat across from her and said, "I have good news." Seeing news is not the same as being told it.

The episode's most honest moment arrives late, around the 44-minute mark, when Howes turns the questions on his guest. He asks what she still struggles with, and the answer, as the episode description frames it, is charging for her own work, a belief she traces back to her early twenties. The exchange is a small demonstration of the framework: a question about a personal story rather than a credential, followed by an answer that carries feeling and history along with it.

That is the practical lesson. The strongest conversations do not start at the deepest level. They travel there because one person takes the risk of saying something true about themselves and the other person asks what it means. "Tell me more" is not a filler phrase in this model. It is an invitation for someone to move from fact into story, and it works only if the listener is actually curious about the answer.

The episode is not a lecture so much as a working session, and the most useful takeaways are small enough to try this week. Retire "been busy" and replace it with a question that asks for a story. Notice when you are speaking to an AI model in a directive voice, and consciously switch registers before you talk to a person. When you are tempted to send a long voice note to someone you love, consider whether a live call would give both of you the feedback and oxytocin the note cannot. And when someone tells you something about their life, ask one more question than you normally would.

For a deeper dive, Van Edwards's forthcoming book Conversation is available for pre-order at amzn.to/4qSDSJ3. Her earlier books, Cues (amzn.to/4x7T7iL) and Captivate (amzn.to/4xp0ClH), extend the same research into body language and the science of likability. Her work is collected at scienceofpeople.com.

Then pick one person you love and ask them a better question tonight. Van Edwards's bet is that the answer will surprise you, and that a relationship you thought you understood can go a good deal deeper than the last conversation did.

Comments

Loading the conversation…

Transcript

[0:00] The single worst question [music] in any

[0:02] conversation is been busy. You are

[0:04] literally asking the other person's

[0:06] brain to [music] search for negativity.

[0:07] You're literally reminding them of all

[0:08] the reasons why they shouldn't be in

[0:10] conversation with you. If you ask the

[0:11] brain, been busy, the brain goes busy,

[0:13] busy, busy, busy. Until it gets an

[0:14] example of being busy. Yes, I am busy.

[0:17] >> Exhaustive doing this, this, and this.

[0:18] >> Or if they're not busy, well, then they

[0:20] then they sound like a loser. No, no,

[0:22] I'm just not busy.

[0:23] >> I got nothing going on in my life.

[0:25] >> No win.

[0:26] >> So, been busy is the single worst

[0:28] question. Vanessa Van Edwards is a

[0:29] behavioral investigator and founder of

[0:31] Science of People, best-selling author

[0:33] of Captivate and Cues and her new book,

[0:36] Conversation, Vanessa Van Edwards.

[0:39] >> Right now, we are directly competing,

[0:41] our conversations are [music] directly

[0:43] competing with our phones and we always

[0:45] choose the feed because it's more

[0:47] dopamine. So now our [music]

[0:49] conversations have to compete with the

[0:52] feed. Our questions have to be so good.

[0:54] Our stories have to be [music] so good

[0:56] that we actually pull you off of your

[0:58] phone.

[0:58] >> How are you going to be more funny,

[1:01] dramatic, [music] interesting than a 100

[1:05] videos in 10 minutes?

[1:06] >> I'll tell you how. In all conversation,

[1:07] [music] what we are deeply searching for

[1:10] is three things.

[1:15] with AI right now is something that so

[1:18] many people are using, myself including,

[1:20] with sharpening communication, with

[1:23] making sure you're saying the right

[1:24] thing, with all these different things,

[1:25] whether it be in personal or business

[1:27] context. And I only assume AI is going

[1:29] to be more used in the future by more

[1:32] people.

[1:33] >> What is the biggest thing human beings

[1:36] are lacking

[1:38] >> that will create more abundance for them

[1:40] in their relationships as they continue

[1:43] to use AI more? So I've spent the last

[1:46] two decades studying master

[1:48] conversationalists. You are one of them,

[1:50] sir. These are people who are able to

[1:54] have a conversation and elevate it to

[1:56] connection. They're able to avoid small

[1:58] talk traps. They're able to create

[2:01] chemistry in a way that people feel

[2:03] heard and understood.

[2:04] >> So when we're talking about the age of

[2:06] AI, we are having for the first time in

[2:08] history more conversation with

[2:11] technology

[2:13] >> than ever before. Not just through

[2:15] technology. We've been having

[2:17] conversation through technology for many

[2:19] decades. But for the first time in

[2:20] history, we are now talking to it. And

[2:23] that is shaping our conversational

[2:25] muscles. Think about this, right? I was

[2:27] sitting next to my my husband and he was

[2:29] talking to AI and I was we were both

[2:31] working. He was talking to AI and he

[2:32] goes, "Do better

[2:34] >> to AI."

[2:35] >> To AI. Do better. No. No. That's wrong.

[2:39] Do a better job. Do your research. No.

[2:42] Verify yourself.

[2:44] and he's talking AI and then he turns to

[2:46] me and I was like, "You better not tell

[2:47] me to do better, right?" And he was

[2:49] like, "Oh, no, no." Um, and he had to

[2:51] like shift gears. I could see it in his

[2:54] face

[2:55] >> that when we're talking to AI, we are

[2:57] using a kind of conversational muscle,

[2:59] very directive,

[3:01] >> very assertive, not polite, not about

[3:03] connection,

[3:04] >> not about reciprocity.

[3:06] >> And then we have to switch to talk to

[3:08] our colleagues, our partners, our

[3:09] friends.

[3:10] >> Friends, it's the same muscle. You know,

[3:13] when you say that I I can relate to that

[3:15] from sports into life because when I was

[3:17] playing football,

[3:18] >> it was like three hours in the afternoon

[3:20] was like go and kill someone. It was

[3:22] literally like

[3:23] >> put as much pain into the person across

[3:26] from you as possible so they feel it and

[3:28] they don't get up. Yeah.

[3:29] >> That's kind of what you're taught, you

[3:30] know, hit them so hard they can't

[3:32] breathe.

[3:33] >> Right.

[3:34] >> And then you're supposed to shift out of

[3:35] it, take the helmet off and the and

[3:37] shower and then be like, I love

[3:39] everyone. You know, it's like

[3:40] >> Yeah. It's a switch that you have to

[3:43] learn to navigate and I guess

[3:45] compartmentalize or what is the process?

[3:46] >> So here's how I would love to to invite

[3:49] people to think about is we think about

[3:51] going to the gym. We think about

[3:53] exercising our body. We lift weights to

[3:54] help our biceps or our quads. It is the

[3:57] same thing with conversation.

[3:59] >> The muscles that we use in our brain. I

[4:01] know we don't have muscles in our brain,

[4:02] but the way that we use our brain to

[4:03] talk is listening, right? So you're

[4:05] nodding at me. I'm making eye contact.

[4:07] I'm also thinking about a story or

[4:09] research. That is also like going to a

[4:12] social gym.

[4:13] >> And what we don't realize is we are

[4:14] flexing our social muscles now more than

[4:17] ever to technology, not to each other.

[4:20] And this has all kinds of interesting

[4:21] ripple effects. So for example,

[4:23] >> most of my best friends are across the

[4:24] country. I just recently moved as you

[4:26] know, and we're sending each other

[4:28] 9minute voice notes.

[4:30] >> Now that is not conversation, but it

[4:32] feels like conversation, right? I'm

[4:34] actually talking to my phone, right? I'm

[4:36] I'm talking and talking, which you'll

[4:38] you know, I love to talk. So, I'm I'm in

[4:41] a voice note. I have no feedback. I have

[4:44] no eye contact. I have no even they're

[4:46] called vocalizations. Oh. Uh-huh. Wow.

[4:50] None of those. And I have no person back

[4:54] to me who loves me and cares about me to

[4:56] say, you know, I don't know if that's

[4:58] the right line of thinking.

[4:59] >> Or, you know, can I double click on that

[5:01] for just a second? or push back or

[5:03] feedback or hard news and then I get one

[5:06] back and then it's over. That's the

[5:08] conversation.

[5:09] >> Interesting.

[5:09] >> We're changing the way that we're doing

[5:12] our reps to speak longer,

[5:14] >> to have less input. And you know what?

[5:16] And this is like why I'm here today and

[5:18] I'm so grateful. Thank you for having

[5:19] me.

[5:20] >> We are in a loneliness epidemic.

[5:22] >> You know, one in six people worldwide

[5:25] are affected by loneliness.

[5:27] >> And that number is getting worse, not

[5:29] better. Why? We think we're having

[5:31] conversation, but we're not getting the

[5:34] connection that we need. So, we're

[5:36] having conversation to AI. We're having

[5:37] conversation via voice note. We're on

[5:39] social media looking at all of our

[5:41] friends. We feel like we see them. We

[5:43] feel like we know them. I am now finding

[5:45] out my friends are pregnant, getting

[5:46] married, and get a promotion over

[5:48] LinkedIn and Instagram. Really, I can't

[5:50] remember the last time someone out with

[5:51] me and said, "I have good news."

[5:53] >> A lot.

[5:53] >> No. They go, "Did you see my good news?"

[5:56] >> Yeah, it's true.

[5:57] >> And then we have lost. And this is the

[5:59] chemistry. The the reason I wrote this

[6:01] book is there's a blueprint under our

[6:04] conversation that is happening that is

[6:06] so critical that when we're having even

[6:08] I'll even say even a video conversation

[6:10] right so or over the phone that still

[6:12] counts when we're talking not

[6:14] asynchronously so synchronously to

[6:16] another human being not voice note not

[6:17] AI our body is first producing oxytocin

[6:20] oxytocin the chemical of love and

[6:22] connection

[6:22] >> real time communication means so phone

[6:24] call and FaceTime is okay

[6:25] >> yes and we actually do still produce

[6:27] oxytocin over video and over the phone

[6:29] so we still have What does oxytocin do

[6:31] for us? Yes, it makes us feel connected.

[6:34] But it actually gives us a feeling of

[6:36] belonging. So when I'm with you and I

[6:38] say, you know, man, I'm feeling so

[6:42] lonely, like I'm so busy and I'm so

[6:44] tired and I'm lonely. I'm a new mom and

[6:45] I'm lonely. My friend can go, wow, tell

[6:49] me everything. And I get this feeling of

[6:52] being understood and loved. So that

[6:56] oxytocin is happening. You know what

[6:57] oxytocin also does? And I found this in

[6:59] the research of this book. The untalked

[7:01] about benefit of good conversation is

[7:06] oxytocin improves our social cognition.

[7:10] Meaning if we are having synchronous

[7:12] conversation,

[7:14] we both become better at reading people.

[7:17] >> We become better at reading faces. Yeah.

[7:18] >> We become better at hearing the nuance

[7:20] in the voice. Oh, your voice just

[7:22] cracked there. Are you okay? We get

[7:24] better at was that a lie? Was that true?

[7:27] So also we're better with people which

[7:29] makes us feel better which makes us more

[7:31] confident. The second thing that it's

[7:32] doing is chemically it's creating

[7:35] dopamine. Now dopamine does a lot of

[7:36] things in our body but it's the chemical

[7:38] of pleasure. It's the chemical yes it

[7:41] feels so good.

[7:42] >> It feels good but it also gives us

[7:44] energy like that feeling of tell me

[7:47] more. I want to know more. I want to do

[7:49] that with you. I want to help you. Let's

[7:50] go see that movie. That is actually

[7:52] dopamine. And right now we are directly

[7:55] competing. Our conversations are

[7:56] directly competing with our phones. You

[7:59] have a choice when you walk into a

[8:01] waiting room. You can scan your feed or

[8:03] you can talk to the person next to you.

[8:05] I'll have a lot of students, you know,

[8:06] you when you go into a classroom, you

[8:08] have a choice. Have your AirPods in and

[8:10] be on your phone

[8:11] >> or have a small conversation and

[8:12] connect.

[8:13] >> And we always choose the feed or almost

[8:16] always choose the feed because it's more

[8:17] dopamine. So now

[8:19] >> interesting. I think our conversations

[8:22] have to compete with the feed. Our

[8:25] questions have to be so good, our

[8:27] stories have to be so good that we

[8:29] actually pull you off of your phone. And

[8:31] that is a tremendous

[8:32] >> And that's hard to do though.

[8:33] >> Pressure.

[8:34] >> I wrote a whole book about it. It's a

[8:35] tremendous amount of pressure.

[8:36] >> How are you going to be more funny,

[8:39] dramatic, interesting than a hundred

[8:42] videos in 10 minutes?

[8:44] >> I'll tell you how. I'll tell you how. So

[8:47] yes, your feed is the funniest thing on

[8:49] the internet that day. It's your feed is

[8:51] the best thing in the world for you at

[8:53] that moment. It's very hard to commute

[8:55] that. But the one thing that AI cannot

[8:57] do is it cannot give you the feeling of

[8:59] being understood because technology

[9:02] doesn't understand in that way. And it

[9:04] can also not help you feel chosen.

[9:07] >> I think in in all conversation what we

[9:09] are deeply searching for is three

[9:11] things. Do you understand me? Do you

[9:15] choose me?

[9:16] and do you love me?

[9:19] >> And technology cannot do any of those

[9:21] three things.

[9:21] >> It can make me feel like, oh, there's a

[9:23] person talking about my challenge that

[9:25] is relatable. So, I can relate to this

[9:27] person's idea or their message or their

[9:29] video or tweet or whatever it is,

[9:31] >> right?

[9:31] >> But you're not speaking to them.

[9:33] >> No. And and you're not understood in

[9:35] that feeling of I am being seen for who

[9:39] I am. Mhm.

[9:40] >> You know, I offer these what I call

[9:41] power questions. And I over the last two

[9:44] decades, so my research started with

[9:46] just studying patterns of conversation,

[9:48] like looking at very good

[9:49] conversationalists and analyzing what

[9:52] makes for a good conversation. Like are

[9:53] there patterns? I'm a social

[9:55] overthinker,

[9:56] which means um it's a fancy nice way of

[9:59] saying that I just rethink everything

[10:01] that I said and always worry that I said

[10:02] the wrong thing.

[10:04] >> Um and that was really hard because I

[10:06] was like, what did I miss? Like what did

[10:08] I miss? So I just started just studying

[10:10] what are the patterns? What are the

[10:11] people who say the right things? Like

[10:13] are there right things? Are they doing

[10:15] something differently? Are they asking

[10:16] different questions? And what very

[10:18] quickly emerged and this led to the

[10:20] second part of my research is they are

[10:21] asking very highly specific questions.

[10:25] They are asking first questions that

[10:26] break autopilot. So they're not asking

[10:29] how are you? What do you do? Where are

[10:31] you from? They're not asking those types

[10:32] of questions because they I think

[10:34] intuitively know it's going to snap on

[10:36] autopilot. It's going to be a boring

[10:37] conversation. No dopamine, right? The

[10:39] other thing that they're doing is

[10:40] they're asking questions. The way that

[10:43] the only pattern I could see with all

[10:44] these questions, I was cataloging them

[10:46] is they are looking for stories, not

[10:49] facts. People who look for facts, I

[10:51] mean, technology can do that, right? We

[10:52] Google fact check someone, we Google

[10:54] someone, you know, we're like, okay,

[10:55] married, lives in LA, right? Like

[10:56] podcaster, right? Right. Right. Author,

[10:59] >> facts are dead ends conversationally,

[11:01] right? Where are you from LA? Where do

[11:04] you live in LA? Uhhuh. How many kids you

[11:05] got? like there's nowhere to go with

[11:07] that and it creates a lot of

[11:09] conversational burden. So for us

[11:10] overthinkers, we're like

[11:12] >> then you have to think of the next thing

[11:13] to ask cuz there's there's an ending.

[11:15] Okay, now I have to think of something

[11:16] next.

[11:16] >> And then like what happens when you're

[11:18] like what do I say next? It's very

[11:19] selfish. I'm listening less because I

[11:22] know that in one word it's going to be

[11:24] that end. It's going to be my turn

[11:25] again. Right? So it creates a lot of

[11:28] conversational obsession.

[11:29] >> I've learned that there's three words

[11:31] that you can say to make yourself one of

[11:32] the most interesting people in any room.

[11:35] The three words are tell me more. Tell

[11:36] me more.

[11:37] >> That's it. Tell me more.

[11:38] >> Tell me more.

[11:39] >> And when you create a question that

[11:40] doesn't have like a conclusion, but it's

[11:43] a story, you can say, "Wow, that's

[11:44] fascinating. Tell me more. Tell me

[11:45] more." Right?

[11:46] >> Yes. Okay. So, tell me more is one of my

[11:47] favorite likable phrases. I I love it.

[11:49] And you're a good conversationalist, so

[11:50] you use it because But if you were to

[11:52] ask a bad question at first, right?

[11:54] Like, how many kids do you have? Tell me

[11:55] more. [laughter]

[11:56] >> It'd be weird, right? So, you have to in

[11:59] a way set yourself up for success by

[12:01] asking for stories. You're asking for

[12:02] stories. You're also asking for

[12:03] emotions. So,

[12:04] >> what are you most excited about? Is a

[12:06] great opener,

[12:07] >> right? Exactly.

[12:08] >> What are you most grateful for today?

[12:09] What are you most excited about? What's

[12:10] the biggest challenge in your life right

[12:11] now?

[12:12] >> Yes. Um, another if I could add one

[12:14] more, those are like chef's kiss. No,

[12:17] no, those are beautiful. And those are

[12:19] also you did something important there

[12:20] is

[12:21] >> those are safe level one questions.

[12:24] >> Now, it's a level five S tier.

[12:27] >> I don't want Sier. I love Sier. I want

[12:29] the S tier.

[12:30] >> I love an S tier. I love an S tier. So a

[12:33] mistake that extroverts make. You're an

[12:35] extrovert. I'm avert.

[12:36] >> I think so. I'm think I don't want to

[12:38] assume, you know, you don't want to

[12:39] assume someone's status. So I think

[12:41] you're an extrovert. Now my extroverts,

[12:42] I love you extroverts. I love you. I

[12:44] love you.

[12:45] >> But you're all flawed. [laughter]

[12:47] >> But you suck at this.

[12:48] >> But you suck at No.

[12:50] >> But you so want to connect and you're so

[12:53] comfortable connecting that you will

[12:55] sometimes skip level one and go too deep

[12:57] too fast.

[12:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's probably me, right?

[12:59] >> Lots of times. Yeah. I've learned to

[13:00] read the room more now, but it's, you

[13:02] know, I used to do that a lot. Go deep

[13:04] right away where you kind of need some,

[13:05] you don't need small talk, but you need

[13:07] some

[13:08] >> level one.

[13:09] >> Yeah. Level one talk.

[13:10] >> Yeah.

[13:10] >> Right. So, extroverts, we you need to

[13:13] have learn to have really great level

[13:15] one conversation. Not how are you, what

[13:17] you do, but like swapping out what you

[13:19] did was expert because you were swapping

[13:21] how are you for what's been good.

[13:24] >> Yeah. What are you grateful for?

[13:24] >> What's exciting? What are you grateful

[13:26] for? Those are swaps. If you say, "What

[13:28] is your greatest dream right now?" Yeah.

[13:30] When you just need someone,

[13:31] >> right? Like no. So the second part of my

[13:34] research was I stumbled upon this study

[13:36] by Dr. Dan McAdams and he found that

[13:39] there are three levels of connection

[13:40] that we have to pass through these three

[13:43] levels to connect with someone.

[13:44] >> What are those?

[13:45] >> Okay. So level one is called general

[13:47] traits. We have to start here as humans.

[13:51] General traits are the basic facts about

[13:52] someone. Hometown, family status, job.

[13:55] Here's what's really hard, which I found

[13:57] shocking, is the social brain has to

[14:01] process social information in a

[14:03] hierarchy.

[14:04] Meaning, I cannot know your why and how

[14:07] before I know your what.

[14:09] >> I actually can't really connect with

[14:11] your dream and your goals and your

[14:13] learning unless I know the basics about

[14:15] you.

[14:16] >> I have to kind of know those basics. So,

[14:18] extroverts, well, very, very

[14:19] well-meaning extroverts, they really

[14:21] want to connect so bad they skip it.

[14:23] Like, I don't even need to know that.

[14:24] I'm going to skip right to level three.

[14:26] But it's the brain literally cannot

[14:28] process that way. So level one is about

[14:30] finding out the facts through story.

[14:33] >> So asking have any fun plans coming up?

[14:36] Do anything fun this past weekend?

[14:37] >> So it's the holidays. What you know what

[14:39] what big plans? You got any trips?

[14:40] Spending time with the kids. So if you

[14:42] have a wife and kids, you're going to

[14:44] find a way to tell me. But I didn't ask

[14:46] you, do you have a wife and kids?

[14:47] >> Right. Right. Right.

[14:47] >> Right. I What do you do is another like

[14:51] I have a problem with that question.

[14:52] What is the worst question anyone should

[14:54] ask someone just meeting for the first

[14:56] time?

[14:56] >> The single worst question in any

[14:58] conversation is been busy.

[15:00] >> Really

[15:01] >> been busy. You are literally asking the

[15:03] other person's brain to search for

[15:05] negativity. You're literally reminding

[15:06] them of all the reasons why they

[15:07] shouldn't be in conversation with you

[15:09] >> cuz they're too busy.

[15:10] >> If you ask the brain been busy, the

[15:12] brain goes busy, busy, busy, busy until

[15:14] it gets an example of being busy. Yes, I

[15:16] am busy.

[15:16] >> I'm exhausted. I'm doing this and this

[15:18] and this.

[15:18] >> Or if they're not busy, well, then they

[15:19] then they sound like a loser. No, no,

[15:21] I'm I'm just chilling out. [laughter]

[15:23] >> I got nothing going on in my life.

[15:25] >> There's no win.

[15:26] >> So, been busy is the single worst

[15:28] question. The second worst question is,

[15:29] what do you do? And here's why. What do

[15:32] you do is socially scripted, right?

[15:34] We've been asked and answered it so many

[15:35] times that the brain is going to social

[15:37] script. It is impossible to create

[15:40] really genuine connection when someone

[15:41] is social script. This is why that

[15:43] boring small talk happens. What do you

[15:45] do? What do you do?

[15:47] >> What school do your kids go to? What do

[15:48] you

[15:49] >> How did you get started? Oh, do you and

[15:51] it has that like tone because the brain

[15:53] is not

[15:54] >> awake. It's like staying in that

[15:56] autopilot.

[15:56] >> What's the best response for someone to

[15:59] break the pattern if someone asks you

[16:02] what do you do?

[16:02] >> Okay. Yes, I have a formula. So, please

[16:05] please let's not ask these anymore.

[16:07] Okay. So, like we can all agree. Let's

[16:09] all make a pack small talk diet. No more

[16:11] what do you do? How are you? Okay. But

[16:12] what we can do is people are going to

[16:14] ask you boring questions.

[16:15] >> Yeah.

[16:16] >> And that is an opportunity. Every single

[16:18] time somebody asks you, "What do you

[16:20] do?" you have an opportunity to break

[16:23] their autopilot, to wake them up so

[16:25] their brain goes, "Whoa." What you want

[16:27] to do here is you want to create small

[16:30] hooks that give somebody a very easy

[16:35] follow-up.

[16:36] >> Remember, what do you do? Whatever it

[16:38] takes.

[16:39] >> What do you do? Surviving drinking

[16:41] coffee just today. Okay. So, you have

[16:43] two choices. You did the first one.

[16:44] First, first one, you can be funny,

[16:46] right? So like

[16:47] >> whatever it takes,

[16:47] >> right? I love it.

[16:49] >> For what? Yeah.

[16:50] >> I like I like funny for how are you?

[16:52] Like when someone asks how are you, you

[16:53] don't have to say good busy thanks

[16:54] >> or but good fine things.

[16:55] >> Funny how are you? Um on a se on a scale

[16:59] seven to 10. Seven out of 10. Right. How

[17:01] are you? Um I am here today. Right? Like

[17:05] you can break those with just funny.

[17:07] That's option number one. Um if you're

[17:08] socially courageous, it takes a little

[17:10] bit of courage to be funny.

[17:11] >> Option two is you give them the story.

[17:15] So what do you do should be a basic

[17:17] formula that I have is give them a label

[17:19] first. We we do need a label. I do

[17:22] blank. I am a teacher. I am an author. I

[17:25] am in marketing. For who? We also like

[17:28] to know who you do it for. Especially if

[17:30] that's me.

[17:31] Why?

[17:33] >> So I do for who by what's your why. And

[17:37] in that answer and again everyone's

[17:39] answer is a little different here is

[17:41] >> you're trying to be easy to talk to.

[17:43] >> Yeah. I I think that the the mistake

[17:45] that I made for many years in in in

[17:48] conversation, you know, I joke I'm a

[17:50] recovering awkward person as you know,

[17:52] my awkwardness came because I was it's

[17:55] embarrassing. I was trying to be

[17:56] impressive.

[17:57] >> Like I was going into conversation

[18:00] trying to like razledazzle and be

[18:02] impressive. No, actually the best way to

[18:05] be in conversation is to be easy to talk

[18:06] to. Is to put the other person at ease.

[18:09] The best way we can do that is if we

[18:11] have an answer that's extremely clear.

[18:12] my label. It gives my my who and my

[18:15] what. Great. You know exactly what I do.

[18:17] And then I give you a very easy response

[18:20] or ask back. That puts the other person

[18:22] at ease and the entire conversation is

[18:24] better. It's also, I think, less

[18:25] selfish.

[18:26] >> Yeah.

[18:27] >> Right. Conversational selfishness comes

[18:29] from being so into your answers that you

[18:33] have to show something that you are or

[18:35] be performative. I think the best thing

[18:36] is to try to like toss it back. Tell me

[18:38] more. Or also like here's a story for

[18:39] you.

[18:40] >> Do you like it? What if you're just both

[18:41] like, "No, you tell me more. No, you

[18:43] tell me more. No, you tell me. No, you

[18:44] tell me."

[18:45] >> Okay. Okay. This is a really good

[18:46] >> But this is still part of general This

[18:47] is still part of general training.

[18:48] >> We're still level one. We're still level

[18:49] one. Okay. So, by the way, you can't

[18:50] make it to level two unless you make it

[18:52] through level one,

[18:53] >> right? So, these are really good

[18:54] questions because

[18:55] >> I just like skipping levels, though.

[18:56] >> No, no, no, no skip levels. No skip

[18:58] levels. No, no. We have to do level one.

[19:00] So, it's a great question. Sometimes

[19:03] introverts, like I have an entire

[19:05] chapter on introverts because introverts

[19:07] often want to listen first. And I

[19:08] believe this is a big you're you can

[19:10] argue with me on this if you don't if

[19:11] you don't agree. I think there are two

[19:12] types of people in the world. There are

[19:14] entertainers and there are appreciators.

[19:18] >> Entertainers love to tell story. They

[19:20] want you to laugh at their jokes. They

[19:22] want you to they want to share their

[19:23] opinion. They're happy to drive the

[19:25] conversation both with question and with

[19:26] story. They like sharing. It makes them

[19:30] feel alive and heard. Appreciators love

[19:33] to listen. They love to ask the good

[19:35] questions and they want to be

[19:37] entertained.

[19:38] They want to hear your good story.

[19:40] >> They want to laugh at your jokes. They

[19:42] actually get a lot of joy from laughing

[19:44] other people's stories and conversations

[19:46] and jokes.

[19:47] >> The problem is if you have two

[19:49] appreciators in a conversation, it's

[19:51] going to be hard.

[19:52] >> Mhm.

[19:52] >> Right. So, when you're

[19:54] >> It can't be both.

[19:55] >> We default to one.

[19:56] >> Of course, we can dial up into like I

[19:58] I'm actually an appreciator, but I

[20:00] interview like I'm in interviews, right?

[20:02] I don't have a podcast. So, I have to

[20:04] >> turn it on.

[20:05] >> I have to turn it on, right? like, but

[20:06] I'm on like this is I'm turning it on,

[20:09] right? Because I know that I have to

[20:10] step into that role in a conversation.

[20:13] If you can be conversationally flexible,

[20:15] it's a gift.

[20:16] >> Yeah. The School of Greatness is brought

[20:18] to you in partnership with Airbnb. And

[20:20] one of the things that I love the most

[20:22] about traveling is when a place

[20:24] surprises you in a way that you didn't

[20:26] plan for. You go for the event, you go

[20:28] for the dinner, the meeting, or whatever

[20:30] it is, but what you remember is the

[20:32] conversation with someone local. the

[20:35] neighborhood you didn't expect to fall

[20:36] in love with. The feeling of

[20:38] experiencing the rhythm and the music

[20:40] and the passion of the place instead of

[20:43] just passing through it. And that's part

[20:46] of why I list a space on Airbnb. I love

[20:49] the idea that someone can come into a

[20:51] city and feel more connected to the

[20:54] local culture. Not just check a box and

[20:57] move on, but actually feel a place just

[21:01] a little bit more. And the income from

[21:03] it can help fund the next adventure. It

[21:05] can go towards a home refresh or just

[21:07] create a little more breathing room in

[21:09] your life. So the next time a big event

[21:11] comes to your area, your space might be

[21:14] a part of someone else's trip in a

[21:16] really memorable way. Your home might be

[21:19] worth more than you think. Find out how

[21:21] much at airbnb.com/host.

[21:25] So if your boss, this is a a mistake

[21:27] people make with bosses. Bosses are

[21:30] often not always appreciators. So a

[21:33] mistake that people will make is they'll

[21:34] go to their boss and they'll ask

[21:35] questions. Tell me about your weekend or

[21:37] you know what' you think of the game or

[21:38] and the boss is like you know you

[21:39] entertain me.

[21:40] >> I talk all day.

[21:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[21:42] >> So in this way and this takes a little

[21:44] bit of preparation but I think it's

[21:46] worth it. In level one

[21:48] >> can you prepare for boring questions?

[21:50] Mhm.

[21:51] >> Can you prepare for

[21:53] the things you're asked the most often?

[21:55] And so I would make a list of the

[21:57] questions you are asked the most often.

[21:59] What are gifts you can give? Either

[22:00] stories that are longer if you have an

[22:03] appreciator um or um stories that are

[22:06] stories that are longer if you have an

[22:07] entertainer or stories that are shorter

[22:08] if you have an appreciator. You have to

[22:10] prepare for both.

[22:11] >> That's general traits.

[22:12] >> General traits.

[22:12] >> Step one. Step two.

[22:13] >> Okay. So you've you've mastered

[22:14] someone's general traits and level one

[22:16] is all about putting someone at ease.

[22:17] And then you feel like you know I think

[22:19] we can level up. So level two is called

[22:22] personal concerns. Personal concerns are

[22:25] goals, motivations, values, personality

[22:29] traits.

[22:31] When you're on level two with someone,

[22:33] you know two things about them. This is

[22:34] kind of the selfch check.

[22:37] You know what gets them up in the

[22:38] morning. You know what like pulls them

[22:40] through the day. You know what they're

[22:41] driving towards, what motivates them.

[22:43] >> But you also know what keeps them up at

[22:45] night. You know what worries them. You

[22:47] know what? [sighs]

[22:48] >> What keeps you up at night?

[22:51] >> This book launch. [laughter]

[22:52] >> I feel like

[22:53] >> I mean like so honestly

[22:55] >> it's a lot of work.

[22:56] >> It's a lot of work.

[22:57] >> And also I like I so strongly

[23:01] >> you're always like why am I doing this

[23:02] again?

[23:02] >> Why am I doing [laughter] this?

[23:04] >> And so I Yeah, this book launch.

[23:07] >> That's what's going on. Yeah,

[23:07] >> that's what's keeping me up at night. Um

[23:09] and you know book book launches are hard

[23:11] because reading is a commitment.

[23:13] >> It is.

[23:14] >> I know asking someone to buy a book. a

[23:16] big expense. I know. And then you're

[23:18] asking, "Can I have 8 hours of your

[23:19] life?"

[23:20] >> Yeah, exactly.

[23:20] >> Can I have 8 hours of your life?

[23:22] >> Yeah.

[23:22] >> What a huge ask. So, um, that's what's

[23:25] keeping me up at night. And I think

[23:28] asking that is also a gift to me because

[23:31] I can ask for your help. And you already

[23:32] are helping by having me here.

[23:33] >> Got your back,

[23:34] >> right?

[23:34] >> Yeah. Of course.

[23:35] >> So, level two, here's the key for level

[23:37] two is there's a couple questions. One

[23:38] is asking about goals and being more

[23:40] comfortable in your relationships asking

[23:42] about goals. You know, yes, I'm talking

[23:43] about social interactions, but I'm also

[23:44] talking about work interactions.

[23:46] >> Like, do you know what all of your

[23:47] colleagues are working on? What's their

[23:48] professional goal? What's their health

[23:50] goal? What's their social goal? Being

[23:51] more comfortable if you're on level two

[23:53] with them.

[23:54] >> Talking about like what are you working

[23:55] on? Like what, you know, if it's KPIs,

[23:57] sure, like if it's quantifiable, that's

[23:59] great. But also just like, you know, how

[24:01] can I support you, right? And so goals,

[24:03] I call it dream building.

[24:05] >> Mhm. Are you dream building with the

[24:08] people in your life or are you

[24:10] accidentally dream killing?

[24:14] Dream killers destroy connection in

[24:17] level two.

[24:17] >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm assuming we've

[24:19] all probably been there as well as also

[24:20] experienced it from others, whether it

[24:22] be I don't know what you're going to say

[24:23] here, but it's probably like if you're

[24:24] just speaking negatively or gossiping or

[24:27] doing things that are like pulling down

[24:29] versus speaking about possibilities.

[24:31] >> Yes. So if you're entering into

[24:33] conversations like I don't know that are

[24:34] just negative then it's okay maybe there

[24:37] is some common connection about

[24:38] something we don't like or we didn't

[24:40] approve of or Sally said this whatever

[24:42] but it's is it empowering us to move

[24:45] forward

[24:46] >> okay negative is the first aspect of

[24:48] dreamkilling but it's not the only

[24:50] aspect and I also don't think that you

[24:53] have to be positive to dream build like

[24:55] there is such thing as toxic positivity

[24:56] right like we also don't want that what

[24:58] dream killing the way that I think about

[25:00] it and when I observed Dream builders

[25:01] and dream killers as leaders, right?

[25:03] This is a lot of my corporate talks are

[25:05] seeing how these two folks manage and

[25:07] lead. Dream builders are additive. They

[25:11] are constantly adding. So they are

[25:13] asking tell me more. They are adding

[25:15] questions. They are adding curiosity.

[25:17] They are adding to whatever it the fire

[25:20] that is being stoked.

[25:21] >> Dream killers are subtractive.

[25:24] >> They are taking away. They're poking

[25:26] holes in balloons. They also do this

[25:28] thing and I think this is most of your

[25:30] viewers. I think very smart people have

[25:35] the tendency to accidentally dream kill

[25:38] with trying to be helpful.

[25:41] >> How so?

[25:42] >> Dream killers often, not always, have a

[25:44] very good intention. They want to help

[25:46] you with their goal. But did you know

[25:48] But did you know well you know the the

[25:50] market is really that's already been

[25:51] done before.

[25:52] >> Oh yeah. I

[25:53] >> I don't think that's going to work.

[25:54] >> Yeah. It's gonna be too hard,

[25:55] >> right? Like you have you thought about

[25:56] this? I don't know if you thought about

[25:57] that. And so a lot of the times the

[26:00] smartest people in the room are dream

[26:02] killing because they're actually trying

[26:04] to be helpful.

[26:06] >> It's good thing I'm always the dumbest

[26:07] person in the room, you know,

[26:08] >> always lifting others up. Hey,

[26:10] [laughter]

[26:11] >> it's the bonus of being additive.

[26:14] >> Oh, so I think I just shared this

[26:16] because one, if you've been accidentally

[26:18] dream killed,

[26:19] >> oh,

[26:19] >> I I wouldn't maybe it was maybe there

[26:21] was good intention there. Maybe not

[26:23] always. And if you're an accidental

[26:24] dream killer, I just like a lot of my

[26:25] students, I'll I share this lesson, you

[26:27] know, I teach it and then they're like,

[26:28] uh,

[26:29] >> I did this or I've done this or I've

[26:31] done this or I do this now,

[26:32] >> right? Or like accuracy dream killing

[26:33] like I was with a couple recently and

[26:35] the the my friend was I don't want to

[26:38] name them. My friend was like, "Oh, you

[26:39] know, last weekend the craziest thing

[26:41] happened. We went on this road trip on

[26:42] we were on the 101." Her husband goes,

[26:44] "No, no, it wasn't the 101. It was a

[26:45] 405." Right? We were on the 405 and it

[26:47] was so hot. Well, it actually wasn't

[26:49] that hot. It was It was hot on the

[26:50] highway, but it wasn't hot outside.

[26:52] Right. So it wasn't that hot. We were on

[26:53] the and like he wouldn't let her get to

[26:55] the story. Now the point of the story

[26:56] was something totally different but he

[26:58] was trying to be accurate which came

[26:59] from a good intention but it dream

[27:02] killed the momentum of what she was

[27:03] trying to say. So I think this is

[27:05] >> check later you know not interrupting

[27:08] constantly.

[27:08] >> Gut check not fact check.

[27:10] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[27:10] >> Right. Like one of my big bold quotes is

[27:12] like we have to gut check before we fact

[27:14] check.

[27:14] >> Yeah. Maybe it wasn't 100% accurate but

[27:16] let's hear this rest of the story.

[27:17] >> Or like is this the time for that?

[27:19] >> Yeah. [laughter]

[27:19] >> Is this the time to fact check? I always

[27:21] want to fact check but their timing is

[27:23] issue and this is where level two is

[27:24] more nuanced right level two is nuance

[27:26] you're in work relationships with people

[27:27] you it's very important you get along

[27:29] with them at work it's your partner

[27:30] sharing their big side hustle idea

[27:32] >> there is nuance here of the timing of

[27:34] when we are additive and how we are

[27:36] additive

[27:37] >> yeah yeah and that's level number two

[27:40] >> level two personal personal concerns

[27:42] >> personal concern so dream killing or

[27:43] dream building

[27:44] >> got to dream build not dream kill and

[27:46] then the last little aspect as well

[27:49] we're not Uh yeah, I mean dreams are

[27:52] dreams are S tier. Okay, dreams are

[27:53] really high.

[27:54] >> Okay, so a couple notes before we get to

[27:55] level three here is level two also does

[27:58] some very nuanced things

[27:59] psychologically. If I could talk a

[28:01] little bit of psychology. Okay, sure.

[28:02] >> So um

[28:05] I studied master conversationalists and

[28:07] one of those was Howard Stern.

[28:09] >> He's incredible what he does.

[28:10] >> I mean he he has these incredible

[28:14] conversations with people where he asks

[28:16] questions that have never been asked of

[28:18] before. He can get people to open up and

[28:19] now however you feel about Howard Stern,

[28:20] right? Like we can still learn from how

[28:22] he has conversations. So I studied

[28:24] thousands of hours of his transcripts

[28:26] looking for patterns like how does he do

[28:28] it?

[28:29] >> One of the biggest things that Howard

[28:30] Stern does.

[28:30] >> So the biggest thing that he does the

[28:33] name the only name I could think I was

[28:34] like there's a pattern here. I call it

[28:36] conversational confetti. Howard Stern

[28:39] has the unique ability to make

[28:40] conversation very exciting, especially

[28:42] in level two, by sprinkling in phrases

[28:45] like, "What's the weirdest thing that

[28:47] ever happened to you?"

[28:49] >> You're never going to believe it.

[28:50] Yesterday, the most embarrassing thing.

[28:52] I couldn't believe it. The worst thing

[28:54] I've ever seen was the worst piece of

[28:56] advice, the best piece of advice, the

[28:58] most embarrassing thing, the weirdest

[28:59] thing. And what he's doing, I was like,

[29:02] "Oh my goodness, he is creating what are

[29:04] called information gaps." Mhm.

[29:06] >> So the brain wants to know everything.

[29:09] It does not like having any gaps in any

[29:10] information. So when the brain hears the

[29:13] worst piece of advice I've ever been

[29:15] given, the brain's like, "Well, what is

[29:17] it?" Right? It creates an information

[29:19] gap. And the brain will do anything to

[29:21] to hear it. So we lean in. We listen

[29:24] better. We get excited. It creates an

[29:26] and and then he always answers with

[29:27] something really on par. Like he would

[29:29] never say, you know, the craziest thing

[29:30] happened to me yesterday. I got a

[29:32] coffee.

[29:33] >> He would never say that. So it's always

[29:34] authentic, right? I was running around

[29:36] naked in New York City and you know

[29:37] whatever it is crazy

[29:41] more.

[29:41] >> So like it is one is we ne and never use

[29:44] these inauthentically. In fact what I

[29:46] actually want to think of is you

[29:47] actually have some very exciting

[29:49] interesting worst best things. We just

[29:50] have to preface it. One of the things

[29:52] that we do uh here when we have a new

[29:55] team member

[29:56] >> uh

[29:56] >> and they're kind of like in their first

[29:58] team call uh we try not to be like

[30:00] Howard Stern fully on but we ask people

[30:04] you know what's your most embarrassing

[30:05] story.

[30:05] >> Oh love

[30:06] >> you know and it's kind of like breaking

[30:07] the ice in that way of like

[30:08] >> love

[30:09] >> reveal a little bit more about you. You

[30:10] can make level two dude.

[30:11] >> We can make it PG you know it doesn't

[30:13] have to be like some crazy thing here.

[30:15] >> Do you share yours?

[30:16] >> Oh yeah yeah yeah.

[30:17] >> Okay great okay good. But that's level

[30:19] two. No, we and I always make and I

[30:20] always make my COO share his, which he

[30:23] crapped his pants one time, so as an

[30:25] adult, you know, so I was like, okay,

[30:26] >> you know, as long as he leads with that,

[30:28] then anything else is free game.

[30:29] >> And then you set a vulnerability bar.

[30:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[30:31] >> Right. Like you set the stage of like we

[30:33] all make mistakes. We all have

[30:34] embarrassing things. So one is just to

[30:36] take a step back from your stories and

[30:38] your conversation and just think about

[30:39] like what cool stuff do I have to share?

[30:42] Like what is a weird thing that

[30:44] happened? What's a surprising thing that

[30:45] I learned? What is the best piece of

[30:46] advice? What's the worst piece of

[30:47] advice? It's weird to think about

[30:49] yourself in that way, but it actually is

[30:50] more fun. It's more engaging for you.

[30:52] So, I think a he's having more fun in

[30:54] conversation because he's thinking that

[30:55] way, but we can too. We can do it

[30:57] authentically. I would never do it

[30:58] inauthentically. But as I began to think

[31:00] about it, I was like,

[31:02] >> you know, actually there are some really

[31:03] funny embarrassing moments or stories.

[31:05] And so now when I'm living like just

[31:07] living my life, if something weird and

[31:09] crazy happens, I'm like bringing this up

[31:11] in story tomorrow.

[31:12] >> So, in a weird way, it also like adds

[31:15] more depth to even my dayto-day. So

[31:17] sprinkling in these kinds of

[31:18] conversations in creates information

[31:20] gaps which we want. And the other thing

[31:22] I will suggest this is a really brave

[31:24] one. This is this is really brave but

[31:26] I'm I think people are brave who are

[31:28] watching. Okay.

[31:29] >> You could also play guessing games in

[31:32] conversation.

[31:32] >> Give me an example.

[31:33] >> Okay. This works really well with

[31:34] introverts too. So um Lewis, how many

[31:37] kids do you have? Oh wait, let me guess.

[31:40] [laughter]

[31:40] >> Yeah. Yeah. Don't let me answer. Don't

[31:42] let you answer

[31:43] >> because I I just This happens actually.

[31:46] This I created this tip accidentally

[31:48] because I kept accidentally asking

[31:51] >> answering and then answer. Yeah.

[31:52] >> No. So, um

[31:54] >> where do you live? Oh, let me guess.

[31:55] >> Let me guess. No. No. Yes. Yes. So, like

[31:57] if I'm at like a conference and it comes

[31:59] up or I accidentally asking, you know,

[32:00] where are you from? Wait, let me guess.

[32:02] >> You look like a Cape Cod kind of person.

[32:04] Right. [laughter]

[32:05] >> Right. And then you just like you can

[32:07] play, right? Or like my favorite is like

[32:10] um so what are your kids' names? Let me

[32:11] guess.

[32:12] >> Or I'll guess birth order.

[32:14] >> You know, I'll guess where they're from.

[32:16] >> That's fun.

[32:16] >> Just like it.

[32:18] >> I know this takes a little bit of

[32:19] courage.

[32:20] >> But it's it's playful and I think like

[32:23] what are we doing if we're not having a

[32:25] little fun in conversation?

[32:27] >> 100%.

[32:28] >> You know, like yes, some of it is very

[32:29] serious and we're about to get to level

[32:30] three and that's where it gets more

[32:31] serious. But like can we play in level

[32:34] two?

[32:34] >> Should a lot of it should be play. Okay.

[32:36] >> A lot of it should be play. Like I I

[32:38] love coming on here because we are

[32:39] playful in conversation like right we

[32:40] could play a guessing game. We we could

[32:42] we want. Um I think that

[32:45] having the courage to bring that element

[32:48] of play into your conversations at work,

[32:50] at home.

[32:51] >> Are there certain questions you should

[32:53] never ask women

[32:55] >> if you're a man?

[32:56] >> And are there certain questions you

[32:57] should never ask men if you're a woman?

[33:00] >> Why are you single?

[33:02] >> People do that a lot though, right?

[33:04] Don't they do that sometimes?

[33:06] Let's not.

[33:06] >> You seem amazing, but why are you

[33:07] single?

[33:08] >> No.

[33:10] >> No.

[33:11] >> Any question for both men or women that

[33:14] puts someone on the defensive

[33:17] >> or sets them up to fail.

[33:18] >> I think that been busy is like a setup

[33:20] to fail question, right? Because you

[33:21] either have to be busy and talk about

[33:23] how busy you are, which by the way, the

[33:24] research shows talking about how busy

[33:25] you are makes you look less competent.

[33:27] >> So, you're actually setting someone up

[33:29] to look and sound more incompetent.

[33:30] >> You look stressed. you don't like look

[33:32] like you're in control of your life or

[33:34] responsible overwhelmed

[33:36] >> yeah so like why why would you have them

[33:38] do that or they're going to have to

[33:39] disagree with you so like why are you

[33:41] single one are they really going to like

[33:43] feel comfortable

[33:44] >> sharing that no um I also don't love the

[33:47] questions like what is your greatest

[33:49] weakness

[33:50] >> you know I work with a lot of companies

[33:51] and we talk about hiring practices and

[33:53] you know what interviews should be

[33:55] conversations in my opinions right like

[33:57] in my opinion interviews are a way for

[34:00] you to connect with

[34:01] the the interviewee to the manager and

[34:04] the manager to the interviewe. And so

[34:06] approaching every single work

[34:09] conversation as a conversation, even a

[34:11] performance review, even an interview in

[34:14] that we're trying to set someone up for

[34:15] success. And so any questions that puts

[34:17] someone on the defensive, I don't love.

[34:18] Um, so why are you single? What's your

[34:21] greatest weakness? And there's one other

[34:22] question that I'm a little bit careful

[34:23] of for both men and women,

[34:25] >> which is,

[34:26] >> how much do you weigh? No,

[34:27] >> you know, I don't even care about that

[34:28] one. [laughter]

[34:30] How old are you?

[34:31] >> I mean,

[34:32] >> who cares? I mean, who cares?

[34:33] >> Maybe not.

[34:34] >> It's also fact based, right? It's like

[34:35] straight to level one, right? Right.

[34:37] It's like one way. Yes. One word answer.

[34:39] Um, you can't be like, tell me more.

[34:41] >> How much do you weigh? Tell me more.

[34:42] [laughter]

[34:43] >> The last question I do not like that I

[34:46] have problems with is uh what's your

[34:49] story?

[34:50] >> God, so hard. Where do you want me to

[34:51] start?

[34:52] >> Thank you.

[34:53] >> It's like Esther Prell, where should we

[34:54] begin? You know, it's like

[34:55] >> it's too much.

[34:56] >> It's a lot. You want to start at five?

[34:58] you want to start last year, you must

[34:59] start like

[35:00] >> right and the extrovert's going to be

[35:01] like well you know start in the child

[35:04] college years like it's it's

[35:06] >> it's too much pressure and you know just

[35:08] mechanically speaking

[35:10] >> I was looking at the mechanics of

[35:12] conversation for this and the cander

[35:14] corpus is the biggest database on

[35:16] conversation and they found that turn

[35:18] taking just so we are clear is 15 to 30

[35:21] seconds so you speak 15 to 30 seconds I

[35:23] speak 15 30 seconds that's helpful right

[35:25] like and by the way if you think you

[35:27] over talk or you undertalk, I would

[35:30] recommend listening to a pre previously

[35:32] recorded call or time yourself. If

[35:35] you're speaking for 30 seconds and it

[35:36] feels too long, you might be

[35:38] undertalking. If you're speaking for 30

[35:40] seconds and you're like, "Wow, that went

[35:41] so fast." You might be overt talking.

[35:43] >> Once we get to 45 seconds, it actually

[35:45] begins to feel like conversational

[35:47] narcissism. Like it's like, "Whoa, like

[35:49] this person's like taking up a lot of

[35:50] air."

[35:51] >> If you ask someone, "What's your story?"

[35:53] You're setting them up to be a

[35:54] conversational narcissist.

[35:55] >> Interesting.

[35:56] >> It's too much. It's too much for them to

[35:57] say. And it's level three.

[36:01] Level three is selfnarrative. That's the

[36:04] story you tell yourself about yourself.

[36:07] >> I actually, you know, your book when you

[36:10] were talking about like the masks we

[36:12] wear,

[36:12] >> mask and masculinity.

[36:13] >> Yep.

[36:14] >> I when I read that book, I was like,

[36:17] "Wow, this is such a great take on

[36:20] narrative on selfnarrative." And I was

[36:21] actually doing my research on self

[36:22] narrative then, but it wasn't ready yet.

[36:24] Mhm.

[36:25] >> It's kind of like the mask we wear, but

[36:27] it's the story we tell ourselves about

[36:29] ourselves. It's how we make sense of our

[36:31] journey and purpose in life. It's how we

[36:33] answer the question, how did you get to

[36:35] where you are today? So, when somebody

[36:37] asks you in an Uber, what's your story?

[36:40] It's like trying to jump to level three

[36:42] and you're making me be a conversational

[36:43] narcissist.

[36:44] >> Mhm.

[36:45] >> Any version of that question, right?

[36:47] Like,

[36:48] >> so what's a better question to ask

[36:50] someone instead of what's your story?

[36:51] Okay. So now we have a choice, right?

[36:54] Like I'm like, "Okay, let's get ready.

[36:56] >> If you are at level three with them, I

[36:59] can teach you some questions." But are

[37:01] you

[37:01] >> Yeah.

[37:02] >> Like before I teach us level three, and

[37:04] I will I will, but like usually level

[37:07] three is reserved for your most

[37:09] intimate, closest people.

[37:11] >> Interesting.

[37:12] >> And I don't I think maybe two or three

[37:14] people in your life might really truly

[37:17] be here.

[37:18] >> So we shouldn't go there with most

[37:20] people. I think a mistake that we make

[37:21] in work conversation, right? Like work

[37:23] conversation is a really important

[37:24] aspect of culture and engagement. Like

[37:26] if if companies are not thinking about

[37:27] work conversation, they are missing the

[37:28] opportunity. Work conversations are are

[37:30] career insurance against AI. If you can

[37:32] have great conversations at work, you

[37:34] have career insurance against this

[37:36] technology.

[37:37] >> But if you go too deep too fast,

[37:39] >> then what

[37:40] >> people are like,

[37:41] >> right? If you are trying to talk

[37:43] self-narrative in the five minutes

[37:44] before your collaboration team call,

[37:47] >> you're setting yourselves up for

[37:48] failure. But I guess the level two

[37:49] personal kind of goals, dreams is still

[37:52] >> still level two. It's okay.

[37:53] >> Still great. Yeah. Yeah.

[37:54] >> Right. Because you can

[37:54] >> so you're not surface level. You're

[37:56] still going deeper

[37:57] >> but safely deeper. Right. Or like for

[37:59] example, you know, I notice a lot of my

[38:01] my team is virtual and so we have a team

[38:03] call every Tuesday. Actually, I had the

[38:04] team call on the way here today.

[38:06] >> Um and we start I noticed the beginning

[38:08] of our meetings were sort of I would say

[38:11] wasted small talk

[38:13] >> like the weather. How

[38:14] >> was the weather then? What' you do this

[38:15] weekend?

[38:16] So launch is coming up. You know, it was

[38:18] like it was like ne it was accidentally

[38:20] negative

[38:21] >> and it was just no connection was

[38:23] happening at all. So I changed this a

[38:26] couple years ago where I said right when

[38:28] we log in we're doing tell me something

[38:29] good.

[38:30] >> We're going around really quickly. You

[38:31] share one really quick good thing.

[38:32] >> I like that. You know why I like having

[38:34] you on because you just reaffirm that

[38:37] I'm hopefully doing some things well.

[38:39] You know what I mean? [laughter]

[38:41] cuz I'm like everything you say here I'm

[38:43] like I like that because most of it I

[38:44] feel like we are doing a lot of it in

[38:47] some way

[38:48] >> and there's a lot of other things we can

[38:49] improve on.

[38:49] >> There's a reason why this is so

[38:50] successful.

[38:51] >> But I talked to Matt my, you know,

[38:54] person who runs the business and often

[38:56] I'm like what's the good news today?

[38:58] Like tell me some good news.

[38:59] >> Yes.

[39:00] >> Instead of like what's the problem we

[39:02] need to fix? Because business is all

[39:03] about fixing problems automatically.

[39:06] It's like

[39:07] >> there's always going to be some type of

[39:08] challenge that you're overcoming. It's

[39:10] never I sold millions of copies today.

[39:12] Everyone, you know, it's always

[39:13] something you've got to overcome,

[39:15] >> right?

[39:16] >> That's just business in general. But if

[39:17] we can frame it with what's the good

[39:19] news today or tell me something good

[39:20] today or

[39:22] >> even especially when you feel

[39:24] overwhelmed or overworked or

[39:26] >> it's a lifeline

[39:27] >> like challenge after challenge just

[39:29] keeps hitting you.

[39:30] >> Yes.

[39:30] >> Tell me something good. It helps you go

[39:32] back into the the dream building rather

[39:34] than dream killing.

[39:35] >> And it's it's a casual way to do it and

[39:37] it's a gift for your introverts.

[39:39] And introverts often they're like, "When

[39:41] do I share?" Right? So like I'm an

[39:43] ambbervert. I'm somewhere in between.

[39:45] But for what I noticed pattern-wise is

[39:47] introverts will will not share because

[39:49] they don't they don't want to interrupt.

[39:50] They don't want to feel they don't have

[39:50] the right time. So if you have a a norm

[39:52] setting in your work culture of tell me

[39:55] something good, it allows introverts

[39:56] one, they can prep for it. They know

[39:58] it's coming.

[39:58] >> Yeah.

[39:59] >> Two it gives them a very box time. They

[40:01] can take 20 seconds. Oh, I have a great

[40:03] cup of coffee today. It could be super

[40:04] casual or it could be like my daughter

[40:06] went to college. Right. It could be like

[40:07] small or big. It's norm building so that

[40:10] I kind of have a pulse check of my team,

[40:13] right? Like I don't always have time for

[40:14] one-on- ones every week or my team's too

[40:16] big. But if it's something good and I

[40:17] can be like, "Oh, you someone says, "Oh,

[40:19] my my my parents are in town this week."

[40:21] I can know. Cool. All right. Like maybe

[40:23] I I I'll try not to email after hours.

[40:24] Try not to text after her parents are in

[40:26] town.

[40:27] >> Right. So it allows me as a manager to

[40:29] just really quickly see like what's

[40:30] going on for you.

[40:32] >> And and this is the best part. So uh two

[40:35] years ago my team member came to me and

[40:38] she said you know Monday is my dog good

[40:40] day so I have something good to share in

[40:43] the meeting on Tuesday.

[40:45] >> And I thought

[40:46] >> if you ask if you're known for asking

[40:48] good questions you set people up for

[40:51] goodness.

[40:51] >> Yes.

[40:52] >> Right. Like if you're if people are know

[40:54] you and like be known for asking what's

[40:56] good. Be known for asking have anything

[40:58] fun and exciting coming up because then

[41:00] people save that stuff for you.

[41:01] >> Yes. They're excited to tell you and

[41:02] they see you. They're so excited. Now, I

[41:04] need to mention here, what if it's not

[41:06] good,

[41:08] >> right? Like, what if they don't have

[41:09] anything fun exciting? It's a really

[41:12] hard and challenging time. Great. That

[41:14] is an opportunity,

[41:16] >> right? I would much rather have the kind

[41:18] of level two relationships where I say,

[41:19] "Have anything fun and exciting?" And

[41:21] you say, you know, I've been really

[41:23] going through it. And I go, "Oh my gosh,

[41:25] tell me more."

[41:26] >> Yeah.

[41:27] >> Tell me everything. So it's also an

[41:29] opportunity for if something is going

[41:32] badly instead of how are you

[41:34] >> there is no permission there right if I

[41:36] ask my team member how are you

[41:38] >> I don't want to hear right like that's

[41:40] like

[41:40] >> now you're in California you can speak

[41:41] like that right

[41:42] >> yeah exactly exactly my California

[41:44] accent's coming back I know um so like

[41:46] if I ask how are you it's not really

[41:48] asking how are you it's not really and

[41:50] so if I ask like anything planner

[41:51] exciting it gives you permission we've

[41:53] broken the script to say it's either

[41:54] good or it's not good

[41:55] >> so if it's not good or something's not

[41:58] fun and exciting that is also good in

[42:00] that it is level two.

[42:02] >> Uhhuh.

[42:02] >> So I I think that dream building piece

[42:05] works. Now

[42:06] >> level three let's talk about

[42:07] self-narrative for a second.

[42:09] >> So

[42:11] the research shows the story you tell

[42:13] yourself about yourself is

[42:14] self-creating.

[42:16] Meaning if you tell yourself that you

[42:19] attract good things and you are very

[42:21] lucky, you are more likely to see the

[42:23] world through a luck frame.

[42:25] >> Yes.

[42:26] And what I really have been thinking

[42:29] about a lot with this research was this

[42:32] is not about the facts of your life.

[42:33] It's about the frames of your life.

[42:35] >> How do you see the facts of your life?

[42:38] >> Yes.

[42:38] >> When you begin to think about how am I

[42:41] interpreting the facts of my life? How

[42:42] is my partner? How is my kid? How is my

[42:45] parent? How is my colleague? You begin

[42:47] to see patterns. And this is the whole

[42:51] reason I wrote it is if we can truly see

[42:53] people for the patterns that they are

[42:55] repeating over and over again, we are

[42:57] truly understanding them. We are truly

[42:59] seeing them for who they are. And if

[43:01] they want to change it, the only way to

[43:03] change your selfnarrative really the

[43:05] only way is through conversation.

[43:07] >> Really,

[43:08] >> first of all, I've done this. So, okay,

[43:11] we the these three levels exist, right?

[43:12] I read the research. I was like, great.

[43:14] I take it out into the world and I'm

[43:15] like, so what's your self narrative?

[43:16] People are like, what?

[43:18] >> Mhm. So, it's a very weird level because

[43:21] you often cannot self diagnose.

[43:24] And so, how weird is that that I can

[43:27] give you all the facts about self

[43:29] narratives. I can tell you about frames.

[43:30] I can tell you about redemption versus

[43:31] contamination narratives. There's

[43:32] different types of narratives. And we

[43:34] can do some soularching. We can do some

[43:35] journaling, but you can only get so far.

[43:38] >> It is really hard to see it without

[43:40] asking your best friend.

[43:41] >> Yeah.

[43:42] >> And your partner. I'm curious then,

[43:43] Vanessa, what's the thing that you feel

[43:46] you struggle with the most internally or

[43:48] externally?

[43:48] >> Oh my gosh. Yes.

[43:49] >> That all of your friends or colleagues

[43:52] say you're crazy because you're so good

[43:54] at this or you do this so well. What's

[43:56] the thing that you self

[43:58] >> reflect on and feel like you're not

[43:59] where you want to be?

[44:01] >> Charging for anything.

[44:03] >> Really?

[44:04] >> Yeah.

[44:05] >> You struggle with wanting to charge.

[44:07] >> I really struggle with wanting to

[44:08] charge.

[44:08] >> Why is that?

[44:09] >> People are like, "You're cra like what

[44:10] do you mean? like it's like they're like

[44:12] it's worth it or the course is worth it

[44:13] or like you're speaking you've seen me

[44:15] speak right like the speaking is

[44:17] >> but I fundamentally this is part of my

[44:19] narrative is I feel like whatever I'm

[44:21] going to say is not worthwhile

[44:23] >> or like it's not worthy of payment like

[44:25] I just want to give it to you for free

[44:26] >> really

[44:27] >> and so like I really it's the hardest

[44:30] part of my business is that I have to

[44:32] sell anything

[44:34] if I could I would turn my whole

[44:36] business into a nonprofit I would give

[44:38] away all my curriculum to schools and

[44:39] organizations I think this curriculum

[44:40] should be in every school. But I

[44:42] literally have to pay my bills. I And I

[44:44] have a great team.

[44:46] >> I have a very high functioning high

[44:48] performance team

[44:49] >> and I want to pay them well. So I have

[44:51] to charge because to to run this

[44:53] business, we do need a team. It's really

[44:55] hard to run this business. You know, I

[44:56] know it doesn't

[44:57] >> look complicated, but boy is hard.

[45:00] >> Now, let me let me role play this then,

[45:02] >> okay,

[45:02] >> for a second.

[45:03] >> Okay. No, don't fix me. What's

[45:05] >> I'm not fixing you. I'm not fixing you.

[45:07] >> Okay.

[45:08] >> But

[45:08] >> are you going to fix my self narrative?

[45:09] What's going on?

[45:10] >> Well, if we're talking about self

[45:11] narrative,

[45:12] >> Okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[45:13] >> You know, this is part of your

[45:14] self-reflection.

[45:15] >> Mhm.

[45:16] >> Um that's hard for you to charge.

[45:18] >> Yeah.

[45:19] >> Based on our relationship.

[45:20] >> Yeah.

[45:21] >> Would it be taboo for me to say, "What

[45:25] age did that belief start?" Is that too

[45:29] selfnarrativey of a conversation

[45:31] question?

[45:32] >> No, that's perfect.

[45:32] >> Or should I bring it back to level two

[45:34] and say, "You know what? How's that

[45:35] hurting your dreams?" You know,

[45:37] >> right? No, that that's perfect because

[45:38] like you're doing a harvesting question,

[45:40] right? Like we're we're trying

[45:41] >> I'm curious like what age did that

[45:43] belief or story begin in you?

[45:46] >> I love it.

[45:46] >> Not to say like let's go into therapy

[45:48] for the next 60 minutes, but

[45:49] >> as a self-reflection question for you to

[45:51] then say

[45:52] >> I don't know what you're going to say,

[45:54] but for you to respond, think about it

[45:55] and say how does this empower me and

[45:57] build my dream?

[45:58] >> Yeah. And was there a moment?

[45:59] >> Does this does this belief or idea serve

[46:02] me or

[46:03] >> Yeah.

[46:03] >> suppress me? I think that that's that is

[46:05] exactly the right kind of conversation.

[46:07] I think

[46:09] it it had to have been in my early 20s

[46:12] which is my most like awkward stage

[46:14] >> which is like the start of my career

[46:16] right like

[46:18] feeling like I don't know enough so how

[46:20] could I charge anything like right I was

[46:22] like really good at being a free intern

[46:24] like I was really a day for free

[46:26] >> that's it I was so good at that

[46:28] >> I also think for someone at home too

[46:31] it's interesting that you would ask that

[46:32] question because you actually tapped

[46:33] into something you do naturally one

[46:36] harvesting question you can ask in level

[46:37] three with people cuz they won't know if

[46:39] you ask what's your self narrative they

[46:40] won't know.

[46:40] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[46:41] >> But if you say what would the title of

[46:43] your memoir be and then what are your

[46:46] life chapters? So kind of that was like

[46:49] oh I wonder if that's my 20some life

[46:50] chapter. Like there was a moment in

[46:52] there where I had to start

[46:53] >> negotiating for like my salary what it

[46:56] would be. Um and I'm in my 40s now. So

[46:59] it's still there but like I could fit

[47:01] that in.

[47:01] >> I didn't ask her her age by the way. you

[47:02] know that I share that I [laughter]

[47:05] >> so I I so asking what or thinking what's

[47:08] the title of your memoir what are your

[47:09] life chapters could you plot where the

[47:11] frames came in right like that I think

[47:14] that's tremendously helpful and like we

[47:16] could if we were at lunch and not on an

[47:17] interview we would talk about that for a

[47:18] long time

[47:19] >> right

[47:19] >> but for me I mean and maybe this is a

[47:21] downfall of mine because I like to you

[47:24] know and usually with people that I know

[47:26] somewhat well I guess maybe not like

[47:28] best friends but people that I've known

[47:29] for a while I like to ask those types of

[47:31] questions Yeah.

[47:32] >> And I also like people asking me those

[47:33] questions as well.

[47:34] >> Yeah.

[47:35] >> But not everyone does. Not everyone

[47:37] feels ready for that. Not everyone feels

[47:39] like comfortable in someone asking them

[47:41] a question like what age were you when

[47:43] this belief began that is holding you

[47:44] back now from actually being free of

[47:46] this money conversation of feeling like

[47:48] you can't charge for your worth.

[47:49] >> Right.

[47:50] >> So,

[47:51] >> but but that's good. That is good. Not

[47:53] everyone is your people.

[47:55] >> Yeah.

[47:55] >> So, I I think you ask that question to

[47:57] someone and they're like, "Oh, wow."

[47:59] They think about it. You're like,

[48:00] "Great. They're my people. We can go

[48:02] there.

[48:02] >> And I wouldn't ask that if I'm just

[48:03] meeting you. Probably maybe I would, but

[48:05] you mean after like an hour, maybe I

[48:06] would ask.

[48:07] >> Yeah. If you had if you had hit the

[48:08] levels, you can do it in one

[48:09] conversation, right? You can go up in

[48:10] one conversation.

[48:11] >> But the person who jokes with you and

[48:13] and and brushes it off and doesn't want

[48:15] that question, that's not your person.

[48:16] >> Yeah. Let's stay back in level one then,

[48:18] >> right? So like when you ask, for

[48:20] example, and I've asked this question to

[48:21] many people like, "What's the title of

[48:22] your memoir?"

[48:24] >> Some people are jokey and then I go,

[48:25] "Ah, they're not ready."

[48:26] >> They're not ready. Yeah. Yeah.

[48:28] >> But good to know. either they're not

[48:29] ready or they're not my person because I

[48:30] like level three, right? Like I like to

[48:33] go to level two and level three with

[48:34] people as quickly as possible.

[48:35] >> Yeah.

[48:36] >> So, I know I'm going to get along with a

[48:37] new friend. Like right now, I'm

[48:39] literally I moved to a new city. I'm

[48:41] making new brand new friends right where

[48:42] I am. Um and I want to get to level two

[48:46] and level three as quickly as possible.

[48:48] >> Yeah. And maybe like the I don't know

[48:49] why the book title, what's the title of

[48:52] the book? I think it's called I'm glad

[48:53] my mom died.

[48:54] >> Yes. Jennet McCertie. Yeah.

[48:56] >> Yes. And and maybe if like your title if

[48:58] you were originally starting with like

[48:59] I'm glad my mom died. Haha. But then

[49:01] there's a [laughter] but then there's a

[49:02] subtitle of like and how I learned to

[49:04] heal my inner child in the process of

[49:06] you know the relationship with my mom.

[49:07] Then you're like okay they can bring a

[49:09] little humor but there also some depth

[49:11] there. Right.

[49:11] >> Tell me more.

[49:12] >> Right. Tell me more about that. And you

[49:14] just learned so much about her in one

[49:17] sentence.

[49:18] >> Oh yeah.

[49:18] >> And so I think like

[49:19] >> that's interesting. There there's two

[49:21] things here that I would just encourage

[49:23] people to think about, encourage people

[49:24] to think about which is listening for

[49:27] narrative hints. People are actually

[49:30] leaking their narrative to you all the

[49:32] time in conversation if you know what to

[49:33] listen for. So one, you can ask those

[49:35] beautiful questions, right? Like that is

[49:37] a beautiful question of like when did

[49:38] that belief start?

[49:39] >> But even if you're not asking level

[49:40] three questions yet,

[49:42] >> you can hear when someone says

[49:44] superlatives always and never. Oh

[49:46] >> yeah. Yeah.

[49:47] >> That always happens to me. I just never

[49:49] find that. Oh, think good things always

[49:51] come my way. Isn't there always

[49:53] something? Those are actual leaps.

[49:56] >> There's never enough time, you know,

[49:57] whatever it is. Yeah,

[49:58] >> there's never enough time. And so that

[49:59] brings me to work narratives. So

[50:01] sometimes your entire life self

[50:03] narrative is a lot, right? Like it's

[50:05] it's very deep. You might get it with

[50:06] your best friends, your partner, but

[50:08] work narratives are are safe.

[50:12] >> A work narrative is a story that someone

[50:14] tells themselves about their success or

[50:16] a task. So, for example, a work

[50:18] narrative, you just brought one up, is I

[50:20] had a team member,

[50:22] >> every single time I had a check-in with

[50:23] him, so busy. There's never enough time.

[50:26] >> There's just never enough time. And I,

[50:28] this was true at the beginning and then

[50:30] like we were onboarded and and then we

[50:32] had a launch and then we were done with

[50:33] our launch and I was like, you know,

[50:34] I've noticed that I have it in my notes.

[50:36] Every single time we've met, you've

[50:37] always said there's never enough time.

[50:39] Is there ever enough time? And he was

[50:41] like, well, isn't there there's never

[50:44] that it's always the case. And I was

[50:46] like, "But why is that always the case?"

[50:48] And we were able to have a conversation

[50:50] about that idea that he was actually

[50:52] setting himself up to always be

[50:54] overwhelmed and busy because he truly

[50:56] didn't believe there was another way. I

[50:58] said, "Actually, I think there is

[50:59] another way. I don't want you to always

[51:01] be in go go go. You're going to burn

[51:03] out. I don't want you to feel like

[51:04] you're always in hustle mode. Let's

[51:06] create time pockets for you where you

[51:09] actually don't feel like that is the

[51:10] case." And then we are going to build

[51:11] them into our schedule. cuz when you

[51:13] feel like there's not enough time, I

[51:14] also feel like there's not enough time.

[51:16] >> That is a very scarcity mindset.

[51:18] >> That conversation was a gamecher for us.

[51:21] Like we were able to get more on the

[51:22] same page. It unearthed all these other

[51:24] things that time management and task

[51:26] management. That's a work narrative. So

[51:28] also beginning to talk about how we

[51:30] think about our success is extremely

[51:33] helpful with people we work with.

[51:34] >> I mean you're you're a scientist, right?

[51:36] You study

[51:37] >> behavioral human beings.

[51:39] >> I study behavior. Yeah. you study like

[51:41] social behavior, conversations, body

[51:43] language, all these things around human

[51:45] dynamics.

[51:46] >> Yes.

[51:46] >> And if our goal is to have

[51:49] >> I mean maybe it's not our goal, but I I

[51:51] feel like our goal is to have beautiful

[51:53] relationships with human beings in our

[51:54] lives,

[51:55] >> right? It's part of the reason why we're

[51:56] here is you said in the beginning, one

[51:58] out of six people in the world feel

[52:01] lonely or are lonely or identify or

[52:04] affected by loneliness

[52:06] >> and therefore there's some level of

[52:08] suffering that they're experiencing

[52:10] because of that. Maybe it's tied to

[52:12] something else, but if they're not

[52:13] feeling connected,

[52:15] they're going to have a worse experience

[52:17] in life than a better one in my opinion.

[52:19] Mhm.

[52:19] >> And what you said in the beginning as

[52:21] well is like one of the main things that

[52:23] we all want as human beings is to be

[52:25] heard, seen, understood, which

[52:27] essentially means we want to feel we are

[52:29] loved and chosen by other people.

[52:30] >> Yeah. And so if everything we do in

[52:33] conversation should be finding ways to

[52:36] make people feel less lonely or make

[52:39] people feel more connected

[52:41] >> and really find ways to make sure people

[52:44] feel heard, seen, and understood so they

[52:46] are experiencing love and the feeling of

[52:48] being chosen.

[52:49] >> Yes.

[52:50] >> Then shouldn't we always be

[52:53] asking these types of questions that

[52:55] lead into that feeling of life

[52:57] experience with the people we're closest

[52:59] with? Maybe not work team in a certain

[53:03] level. Maybe there's a level there

[53:04] obviously of like how deep you want to

[53:05] go. But shouldn't we be asking the

[53:08] questions around psychological blocks

[53:11] that hold us back from being our best

[53:13] selves? Just like the one I did with

[53:15] you, which is like when did that belief

[53:17] begin?

[53:17] >> Yeah.

[53:18] >> If that's something you're struggling

[53:19] with.

[53:19] >> Yeah.

[53:21] Shouldn't we be focusing on not maybe

[53:23] like how to overcome that more than

[53:25] anything else, but wouldn't that set our

[53:27] relationship to whole new levels if we

[53:30] asked those types of questions and

[53:31] allowed ourselves to figure them out

[53:33] together? Again, not fix each other,

[53:35] >> right?

[53:36] >> But find ways to build our dream life

[53:39] together.

[53:39] >> I think that that is the thing that we

[53:41] are searching for every moment of every

[53:43] day,

[53:44] >> but we don't realize it.

[53:45] >> Yeah. So we don't realize we are deeply

[53:48] searching and seeking for someone to

[53:50] understand my story to someone for see

[53:51] me who I am. So we approach conversation

[53:54] we don't know. We don't really realize

[53:55] that's what we're going for. So we get

[53:56] trapped in awkward small talk cuz we're

[53:58] like how do I get there?

[53:59] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[54:00] >> What do you do? Where you from? And so

[54:03] yes, but

[54:04] >> and people may not be ready to answer

[54:06] those questions or like help you

[54:08] >> right

[54:09] >> navigate what to do because they're not

[54:10] an expert. I get it. So,

[54:12] >> but I do want to say but yes, we are if

[54:14] we could enter every conversation with

[54:16] the intention of truly seeing, truly

[54:20] seeking to understand and being honest

[54:23] and authentic enough to be understood,

[54:25] we all win. But there is something

[54:29] called vulnerability regret.

[54:31] >> Oo yeah.

[54:32] >> And it can happen where you sh you share

[54:35] something vulnerable but it's not

[54:37] actually safe.

[54:38] >> Ooh. Or like a vulnerability hangover.

[54:41] Exactly. It's

[54:41] >> like, "Oh, what did I just do?

[54:43] >> What did I just say? What did I reveal?"

[54:45] Right?

[54:45] >> I don't feel safe.

[54:46] >> Why did I Oh, oh my gosh. I was met with

[54:48] toxic positivity. I was dismissed.

[54:50] Someone tried to convince me I'm not who

[54:52] I am.

[54:53] >> And so, I I share that because

[54:56] >> we also need to be protective. There's a

[54:58] very fine line between being courageous.

[55:00] Yes.

[55:00] >> Right. Like going and asking the

[55:02] questions and and breaking, but also

[55:04] making sure that we are protecting our

[55:05] core self and our core values. And so, I

[55:07] would say like there's no rush.

[55:09] >> Yeah. Yeah, I see yourself

[55:10] >> right like yes I want to approach every

[55:12] conversation that way but [laughter]

[55:14] >> we also need to like

[55:16] >> time and a place

[55:17] >> time and a place and there are some days

[55:19] especially at work like the the biggest

[55:21] myth that I am always talking to leaders

[55:23] about is that conversation takes away

[55:25] from productivity

[55:26] >> conversation takes away from work but it

[55:28] creates connection

[55:29] >> that creates connection and connection

[55:30] connected collaborative connected people

[55:31] work better they work faster

[55:33] >> let's go

[55:34] >> but there are days where you have to get

[55:35] it done there ain't no time for tell me

[55:37] something good there ain't no time for

[55:38] the discussion of how and why. So, we

[55:40] also have to know as dynamic, nuanced

[55:43] human beings. Listen,

[55:44] >> I want to hear all about how that went

[55:46] last weekend. We got to get it done

[55:48] today. We are in go zone.

[55:49] >> And like we understand that, too.

[55:51] >> We understand both.

[55:52] >> Something you talk about as well in the

[55:54] book conversation. How to be instantly

[55:56] likable in any interaction. I want

[55:58] everyone to get the book.

[55:59] >> Thank you.

[56:00] >> Kind.

[56:00] >> This is the type of

[56:01] >> Louis is like endlessly endlessly

[56:02] supportive,

[56:03] >> you know. Well, this is the type of

[56:04] conversations I love having cuz I'm just

[56:06] fascinated by human behavior and human

[56:08] beings in general because it's what I

[56:09] like to do.

[56:10] >> One of the scarcest things is going to

[56:12] be how you can communicate with another

[56:13] person in real time or in person or

[56:16] FaceTime, I guess. Yeah. Because we're

[56:18] going to be like you talk about, we're

[56:19] going to be just using AI or social

[56:20] media for a majority of our

[56:22] conversations rather than learning how

[56:24] to do this. This is one of the scariest

[56:26] things in the world in my mind is

[56:27] sitting across from another human being.

[56:29] >> Yes.

[56:29] >> And speaking to them

[56:30] >> and being willing to be awkward. It's

[56:32] one of the scariest things.

[56:33] >> It is so scary.

[56:34] >> It was my whole childhood, probably

[56:35] yours, too. Right. It's probably why we

[56:36] got into our line of work

[56:38] >> is to heal our own traumas from being

[56:40] awkward in front of people or being not

[56:41] liked or seen, right?

[56:43] >> It's why I went to public speaking

[56:44] class. It's why I put myself in social

[56:46] experiments over and over again to fail

[56:49] and embarrass myself so that I could

[56:51] overcome the feeling of humiliation.

[56:54] >> And it's why you do what you do to study

[56:55] it, right?

[56:56] >> And it's being willing to learn through

[57:00] friction. Yes,

[57:01] >> awkward conversation, bad conversation

[57:03] is like it's like sticky. There's a lot

[57:05] of friction there. Like I ask you a

[57:06] question, you answer with one word, you

[57:08] ask me a question, I I don't know the

[57:09] answer. Like we have to learn that way.

[57:11] But the problem is I think this is the

[57:14] last generation of humans that will

[57:16] learn to talk to each other by talking

[57:17] to each other.

[57:18] >> Wow.

[57:19] >> I think that more and more we have to

[57:21] apologize. What do we do? We go to AI

[57:22] and ask, "How do I apologize?" We have

[57:25] to write a a goodbye letter. We have AI

[57:27] write it for us. We um want to ask

[57:31] someone out, we practice with AI.

[57:32] >> Gosh.

[57:33] >> And so I

[57:34] >> Oh, true.

[57:35] >> Yeah. We're

[57:35] >> AI is like the new calculator.

[57:38] >> Yeah.

[57:39] >> You know, I I

[57:40] >> Yeah. We're no longer be able to do

[57:41] addition in our our brain.

[57:43] >> It's true. Like, you know, I stopped,

[57:45] you know, I I struggled in math. I

[57:47] struggled in every subject, but math was

[57:49] one where I was like

[57:50] >> Me, too.

[57:50] >> Once I got to what was it like

[57:52] fractions, it was like something in my

[57:53] brain like just broke and I didn't

[57:55] understand it.

[57:55] >> And you want to homeschool? No.

[57:57] >> Yeah. Yeah, right. I know. I'm not going

[57:59] to be the one teaching them. I'm going

[58:00] to teach them life skills, not like

[58:03] >> No, I was just books,

[58:04] >> but they bring homework. Oh, yeah.

[58:06] >> I know, right? Yeah.

[58:07] >> But fractions, like something broke my

[58:09] brain where I was like, I don't get

[58:10] this. I'm working really hard to try to

[58:12] understand this.

[58:13] >> I'm not and I'm not going to get it.

[58:15] That was the the age and the belief that

[58:16] I built this around, right?

[58:17] >> No matter how much I studied, it was

[58:19] like, I can't break through. And so, I

[58:20] just never learned math after like third

[58:22] grade.

[58:23] >> Yeah. You're like fraction too hard,

[58:24] done.

[58:24] >> I'm just going to use a calculator,

[58:25] right? And it's kind of like AI is like

[58:28] a calculator for math hard conversations

[58:31] for communication for human dynamics.

[58:33] >> Yep. Yeah. The moment it gets hard, we

[58:34] go to AI.

[58:35] >> That's crazy, right?

[58:36] >> The moment gets like I one of my friends

[58:38] is single. She's dating. And she said to

[58:40] me, right?

[58:41] >> She said to me all of a sudden the text

[58:43] as I started getting deeper in their

[58:45] texting, his texts started to become

[58:48] very clearly AI.

[58:49] >> Oh my god.

[58:49] >> She's like, we could do the banter like

[58:51] the back and forth at the beginning, but

[58:52] now she's like, I know he's using AI to

[58:54] reply to me. Gosh, isn't that crazy? You

[58:56] could have a whole AI like analysis of

[58:58] just saying, "Let me," you can almost

[59:00] connect it to your phone and just say,

[59:01] "Reply for me."

[59:02] >> That's what he was doing.

[59:04] >> Instead of copy and paste, it's more

[59:05] like, "Just do it for me."

[59:06] >> And here's the result that I want.

[59:08] Here's the outcome.

[59:09] >> I want her to think that I'm funny and

[59:11] smart.

[59:11] >> Oh my gosh.

[59:12] >> And and so we're not even learning it.

[59:14] There's no friction to practice it. Like

[59:15] we learn conversation through a little

[59:17] bit of friction, right? Like some of

[59:18] these things you're going to try and

[59:19] it's going to go great. And some of them

[59:21] you're going to try and you're going to

[59:21] be like, "That doesn't go so great." But

[59:24] that's how we learn. Gosh.

[59:25] >> Right. Like confidence is not the

[59:26] absence of awkwardness. Confidence is

[59:28] feeling a little awkward and doing it

[59:30] anyway.

[59:30] >> Amen.

[59:30] >> Right. So in really good conversation,

[59:33] if we're sending all of our hard math,

[59:35] all of our hard conversations via the AI

[59:36] filter algebra,

[59:37] >> right? Then we get in person and someone

[59:40] says something to our face and we're

[59:41] like, "How do I sound assertive?

[59:42] >> I'm a robot.

[59:43] >> How do I sound smart?" No, we're like

[59:45] >> there's [clears throat] no confidence.

[59:47] It's like, [laughter] "Let me check."

[59:48] >> So I think like this is a real

[59:50] >> that's crazy.

[59:51] >> We're we're up against new forces. I

[59:52] would say like we can do it, but we're

[59:54] up against a very new conversational

[59:57] challenge and it's going to happen in

[59:58] every area of our life. Like for

[1:00:00] example, it's going to happen in dating

[1:00:01] where you're not sure am I talking to

[1:00:03] the person or am I not? Where you're

[1:00:05] practicing via AI and then you get in

[1:00:06] person, you realize you haven't had

[1:00:07] enough friction and then you're not

[1:00:08] yourself.

[1:00:09] >> Like right the friction comes from

[1:00:11] finding out who you are. Like being like

[1:00:13] oh I'm uncomfortable with that. Um I

[1:00:14] don't like that question or I'm going to

[1:00:15] be assertive. Like that's where you find

[1:00:17] out your boundaries, your lines. So

[1:00:19] that's going to start to be harder. You

[1:00:20] also have work conversations where you

[1:00:22] say to someone, hey, send me a strategy

[1:00:24] report

[1:00:25] >> and it's really easy to ask AI to do the

[1:00:26] strategy report and then you wonder,

[1:00:29] >> did they actually strategize? Yeah.

[1:00:31] >> Gosh.

[1:00:32] >> And then you need to write a reply back

[1:00:33] about is it a strategy report, but you

[1:00:35] have AI write it. [laughter]

[1:00:37] >> Do you know what I So, we're

[1:00:39] >> Yeah.

[1:00:39] >> We're It's all doable. We can we can do

[1:00:42] it, but it's going to take like going to

[1:00:43] the gym. Like we're going to have to do

[1:00:45] some social reps. We're going to have to

[1:00:46] think of our conversation, our

[1:00:47] connection like a longevity hack.

[1:00:49] >> Yes.

[1:00:49] >> Right. We often think about our

[1:00:52] self-care routine and getting to the gym

[1:00:53] and going in the sauna and our skincare

[1:00:55] routine. We need to do the same thing

[1:00:57] for our social reps. Like, how many

[1:00:59] social reps are you putting in? How many

[1:01:01] conversational reps are you putting in?

[1:01:03] Have you flexed to level three today?

[1:01:05] >> Mhm.

[1:01:06] >> Are you getting to level two with your

[1:01:08] people? Make a list of the 10 people you

[1:01:09] interact with most and place them on the

[1:01:11] three levels. Are they all level one?

[1:01:13] You got some flexing to do.

[1:01:15] >> Right.

[1:01:15] >> Right. So, we have to I I think about

[1:01:17] like going to the gym

[1:01:19] >> and I and it makes us healthier. It

[1:01:20] makes us happier. It is a longevity

[1:01:22] hack. Like the best thing we can do for

[1:01:24] our our social wellness and our mental

[1:01:27] wellness is to have deep connective

[1:01:30] friendships and relationships to

[1:01:31] actually like the people we work with as

[1:01:33] much as we can to actually meet with a

[1:01:35] friend. And this happened to me. I I

[1:01:37] speak to myself too here where I'd go to

[1:01:39] dinners and we weren't talking about

[1:01:41] anything.

[1:01:42] >> You know, you'd go to dinner and be like

[1:01:45] and you spend an hour and a half and

[1:01:47] you're like I just want to go watch

[1:01:48] Netflix [laughter]

[1:01:49] >> like I just want to go home and you

[1:01:51] wonder

[1:01:52] >> I had this where I was like I am talking

[1:01:55] a lot and I don't feel connected

[1:01:59] >> and so this is a thing that we're going

[1:02:01] to have to work at. I think it's so

[1:02:03] worth it but I think it's going to be

[1:02:04] work.

[1:02:05] >> Wow. Now, I'm curious about, you know,

[1:02:08] your whole premise of your book is how

[1:02:10] to be instantly likable in any

[1:02:11] interaction. And a lot of people think

[1:02:13] about likability as having like charisma

[1:02:16] or magnetic energy.

[1:02:18] >> Do you have to be charismatic or

[1:02:21] magnetic in order to be likable?

[1:02:24] >> And also,

[1:02:26] are you born with charisma or is

[1:02:28] charisma a skill that you can develop?

[1:02:30] >> Okay. Well, the good news is charisma is

[1:02:32] absolutely a skill we can develop. Yes,

[1:02:34] there are people who are born

[1:02:35] charismatic, but it's a skill we can

[1:02:37] develop. And the funny thing is the

[1:02:38] reason why your question is, don't get

[1:02:40] mad at me.

[1:02:41] >> It's a bad question.

[1:02:42] >> No, no, don't get mad at me. We changed

[1:02:45] the subtitle.

[1:02:46] >> You changed it. Oh, man. Just the

[1:02:48] galley. Okay,

[1:02:48] >> this is But like it's a good It's really

[1:02:50] worthwhile talking about

[1:02:52] >> because

[1:02:52] >> what's the new subtitle? But I want to

[1:02:54] hear the answer to this, but also

[1:02:55] >> that's why I'm like, let's dig in

[1:02:56] because

[1:02:57] >> this is a whole thing. You know how

[1:02:58] subtitles are a thing. Um, so the new

[1:03:00] subtitle is um, how to connect with

[1:03:02] anyone and how to make every interaction

[1:03:03] count.

[1:03:05] >> Why?

[1:03:06] >> Because

[1:03:08] I was worried about this subtitle

[1:03:10] because it assumes that you have to be

[1:03:13] likable in a reaction and sometimes

[1:03:15] that's not the goal.

[1:03:16] >> Right. Right. Right. It's true.

[1:03:17] >> And I think like to your question

[1:03:20] >> that likability is important. And I have

[1:03:23] a whole chapter about five likable

[1:03:24] phrases and we talk about telling more.

[1:03:26] Yes. But it's not the only goal. The

[1:03:29] goal is to actually make every

[1:03:30] interaction count. That's the actual

[1:03:32] goal. The actual goal is to connect.

[1:03:35] >> Unlikable. Does it count?

[1:03:37] >> Yeah.

[1:03:38] >> But if you're connecting, is it good?

[1:03:41] >> But then you have to be likable if

[1:03:43] you're connecting.

[1:03:44] >> Do you I don't know. I don't know if

[1:03:45] that's I don't know if that's the one.

[1:03:46] >> I guess there's levels of connection,

[1:03:48] >> right?

[1:03:48] >> There's if you're at a F level, you're

[1:03:52] kind of connecting but not really.

[1:03:53] There's a depth to connection, right?

[1:03:55] But at least you are talking deeply and

[1:03:58] maybe feeling understood or having them

[1:03:59] feel understood. Like for example, you

[1:04:00] could get to level three, learn

[1:04:02] someone's self narrative and and not

[1:04:03] like it.

[1:04:04] >> True.

[1:04:04] >> You could be with

[1:04:05] >> True,

[1:04:06] >> let's just say a co-orker that you don't

[1:04:08] particularly like, right? You could be

[1:04:10] with a co-orker and not like them. Not

[1:04:12] that that ever happens.

[1:04:13] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:04:14] >> You don't like them, but you do need to

[1:04:16] understand them.

[1:04:17] >> And you do want to make interactions

[1:04:18] with them count

[1:04:20] >> and you do want to better predict their

[1:04:21] behavior. True.

[1:04:22] >> So if you can still get to level three

[1:04:24] with them even though you're not like,

[1:04:26] "Yay, we really like each other." And so

[1:04:28] I took it away.

[1:04:29] >> That makes sense. So the subtitle Yeah.

[1:04:30] Maybe it's not like love someone, but

[1:04:32] it's more of like do you maybe

[1:04:34] appreciate but respect their ability to

[1:04:36] communicate even if you don't like their

[1:04:39] preferences

[1:04:40] >> or you're willing to put in the work,

[1:04:41] right? Like you're willing to put in the

[1:04:42] work to be like where are we? Right?

[1:04:43] Like and this happens a lot with with

[1:04:45] you know there's two types of

[1:04:46] narratives. There's actually four five

[1:04:48] archetypes. There's two narratives. A

[1:04:49] contamination narrative and a redemptive

[1:04:51] narrative. A redemption narrative is

[1:04:52] someone who feels that no matter what

[1:04:54] they do, through their hard work and

[1:04:55] their grit and their resilience, they'll

[1:04:56] overcome.

[1:04:57] >> Yes.

[1:04:58] >> Contamination narrative, you know,

[1:04:59] right? It's someone who no matter what

[1:05:00] they do, life is always throwing them

[1:05:02] bad circumstances. They're unlucky. They

[1:05:04] can't do anything they can out of it.

[1:05:05] Those folks can be very unlikable. They

[1:05:08] also don't like themselves.

[1:05:10] >> Mhm.

[1:05:11] >> Right. So likability actually is less

[1:05:14] important than them feeling understood.

[1:05:16] And for you to ask, when did that start?

[1:05:19] >> Right. When did that start that you

[1:05:21] thought that the world was against you?

[1:05:23] >> Yeah. And how is that supporting you?

[1:05:24] >> And how is that

[1:05:25] >> how is it supporting your dreams?

[1:05:26] >> And do you want it to keep supporting

[1:05:27] you? I don't have to necessarily like

[1:05:29] that about you or like you for that, but

[1:05:32] >> I think that

[1:05:33] >> Huh.

[1:05:34] >> I I love likability. And look, I like we

[1:05:36] we I do talk about it in level one

[1:05:37] especially because level one it's great.

[1:05:38] If you like someone, wow, it's great.

[1:05:40] It's like lubricant, right? If you like

[1:05:42] something someone, everything's

[1:05:44] smoother. You laugh easier. You have a

[1:05:45] situ. So, I love liability, but it's not

[1:05:47] the it's not the subtitle. is not the

[1:05:49] only goal.

[1:05:49] >> Gotcha. Okay, let's talk about charisma

[1:05:51] for a second then.

[1:05:52] >> Yeah.

[1:05:53] >> Does does a person have to develop the

[1:05:55] skill of charisma in order to be more

[1:05:57] likable

[1:05:58] >> and create better connection as long as

[1:06:02] it's authentic?

[1:06:04] >> Because charisma can also come off as

[1:06:06] like ah it's like they're fake or

[1:06:07] they're like putting on a performance or

[1:06:09] they're showy or they're all about

[1:06:10] themselves.

[1:06:11] >> Yes. If you define charisma in a

[1:06:15] researchbacked way, I define charisma as

[1:06:17] a perfect blend of warmth and

[1:06:19] competence.

[1:06:20] >> That's cool.

[1:06:20] >> That if someone shows up and they are

[1:06:23] open, trustworthy, good intentioned,

[1:06:26] warm, but also competent, productive,

[1:06:29] effective, can get it done. That is

[1:06:32] essential for someone to get along with

[1:06:35] you, work with you.

[1:06:36] >> That way, you're answering the two basic

[1:06:38] questions about human beings. Can I

[1:06:39] trust you and can I rely on you?

[1:06:41] >> Right? Right? If you can answer those

[1:06:42] two questions, then that person is going

[1:06:44] to be charismatic. So if you define

[1:06:45] charisma in that way, if you are

[1:06:47] authentically warm and authentically

[1:06:49] competent, you cannot fake competence

[1:06:51] for very long. You can do it for a

[1:06:52] little bit, right? Anyone can fake

[1:06:53] sounding smart, but not for very long.

[1:06:55] You can fake warmth for a little bit,

[1:06:57] but not for very long. So if you have

[1:06:59] authentic warmth and competence, it's

[1:07:00] actually a signaling issue. Like the

[1:07:03] research gave me the chills when I read

[1:07:05] this research because you can be the

[1:07:07] warmest most competent person in the

[1:07:09] room but if you are not signaling that

[1:07:11] warmth and competence people do not

[1:07:13] believe it.

[1:07:14] >> Wow. So you have to signal warmth and

[1:07:16] competence

[1:07:17] >> at the same time.

[1:07:18] >> Otherwise people won't believe it.

[1:07:20] >> That's it. So

[1:07:21] >> how do you signal it?

[1:07:21] >> Okay. So charisma really charismatic

[1:07:24] people they're just signaling more.

[1:07:26] >> They're good at signaling.

[1:07:28] >> Yes.

[1:07:28] >> So it's more of like learning the game

[1:07:29] of signaling. That's really

[1:07:31] >> other than just being yourself, which is

[1:07:33] kind of feels a little inauthentic,

[1:07:34] >> but like don't you know that person who

[1:07:36] is super super smart and super

[1:07:38] trustworthy, but no one believes them

[1:07:40] cuz they don't show it.

[1:07:42] >> Yeah. Cuz they don't have like courage

[1:07:43] to like put yourself out there like,

[1:07:44] "Hey, you're amazing." Like

[1:07:46] >> it's really about courage. It's less

[1:07:48] Yes, authenticity, but it's actually

[1:07:49] about courage. It's like most of my

[1:07:51] students most of my students are super

[1:07:53] smart, super warm, but they undersignal.

[1:07:56] >> Interesting.

[1:07:57] >> I They're the danger zone. I call it the

[1:07:58] danger zone. The danger zone is all my

[1:08:00] really smart, high achieving students

[1:08:02] who just they just aren't signaling

[1:08:04] their smarts and their warmth and so

[1:08:05] they hold back and they're

[1:08:06] underestimated and they're overlooked.

[1:08:08] >> I it's it's the starving artist

[1:08:11] >> in my mind who's like

[1:08:12] >> totally

[1:08:13] >> in their I mean in their basement or

[1:08:14] whatever just like masters at their

[1:08:16] craft

[1:08:16] >> so good

[1:08:17] >> so talented but they're like but I'm

[1:08:19] waiting for someone to discover me. I'm

[1:08:20] not going to put myself out there and

[1:08:22] like

[1:08:22] >> because they don't have the courage.

[1:08:23] >> Yeah.

[1:08:23] >> So so it's starving artists and the

[1:08:25] other big one the other big one right

[1:08:26] with starving artists and brilliant

[1:08:28] entrepreneurs.

[1:08:29] >> Oh,

[1:08:30] >> I have so many students who are like the

[1:08:31] tinkerers, the entrepreneurs. They have

[1:08:33] this great side, this, great idea, and

[1:08:34] they have a put it out there or

[1:08:36] >> but they're afraid to talk about it.

[1:08:37] >> Why? Because they're afraid to fail,

[1:08:38] afraid to be criticized, afraid to be

[1:08:40] judged.

[1:08:41] >> You know, it feels uncomfortable to

[1:08:43] clearly signal warmth and competence if

[1:08:45] you don't have a lot of belief in

[1:08:48] yourself. So, entrepreneurs, they'll

[1:08:50] have a belief in their idea, but not

[1:08:52] themselves. Oh man.

[1:08:53] >> And that kills me because I'm like you I

[1:08:55] watch Shark Tank, right? I love Shark

[1:08:57] Tank because you see some entrepreneurs,

[1:08:59] they believe in their ideas and they

[1:09:00] believe in themselves. Their pitches go

[1:09:02] great

[1:09:02] >> and they get invested.

[1:09:04] >> Yes. Because we like people who believe

[1:09:06] in themselves. We like people who

[1:09:07] believe in their own warmth and

[1:09:08] competence. So these starving artists or

[1:09:11] brilliant entrepreneurs, they are so

[1:09:13] they know their numbers, they have their

[1:09:14] pitch deck, they have this great

[1:09:16] business idea, but they don't believe in

[1:09:18] themselves. And so they get in the room,

[1:09:21] they get to investors, they go to

[1:09:22] networking events, and they can't get

[1:09:23] buy in because they're just under

[1:09:25] signaling. And I hate this, but I hate

[1:09:28] this, but you can have the best idea in

[1:09:31] the world. If you don't know how to show

[1:09:33] it or share it, it will not get heard.

[1:09:35] >> So what is the best way to signal that

[1:09:36] you have competence and confidence, I

[1:09:39] guess?

[1:09:40] >> Well, it's enough confidence to show

[1:09:42] your warmth and competence if we're

[1:09:44] going to play with

[1:09:44] >> competence and confidence.

[1:09:46] >> Yeah. Yeah. Confidence and warmth. So

[1:09:47] what are the what are the signals when

[1:09:48] you're in person or in a group or on a

[1:09:50] stage or board meeting or around

[1:09:52] colleagues or any of these things

[1:09:53] without bragging about yourself like I

[1:09:55] can do this and I can do that.

[1:09:56] >> That's the worst right like that's the

[1:09:58] worst. Um okay so the first thing is to

[1:10:01] understand that there are different

[1:10:02] channels that we use to communicate.

[1:10:03] There are four different channels is

[1:10:04] actually in my my last book cues. So

[1:10:07] verbal, the words you use. Non-verbal,

[1:10:09] your body language, your gestures, your

[1:10:11] facial expressions. Vocal, how I say my

[1:10:13] words, my pace, my volume, my cadence,

[1:10:15] and my ornaments, the colors I wear, the

[1:10:17] ornaments, what I'm holding in my

[1:10:18] profile picture, what's on your set,

[1:10:21] those are all actually showing warmth

[1:10:22] and competence. Think about if you pop

[1:10:24] on a video with someone and they have

[1:10:26] credentials behind them, competent.

[1:10:28] >> Yeah.

[1:10:29] >> They have family pictures. Warm.

[1:10:32] Both of those might be true. Right.

[1:10:34] Right. Right. Both of those might be

[1:10:36] true, but it's just a signaling. You

[1:10:37] chose what you're going to have behind

[1:10:38] you, either your credentials or family

[1:10:39] photos, but both are true. That's why

[1:10:41] it's like this is less about

[1:10:42] authenticity in the in the traditional

[1:10:44] sense and more about what do you want to

[1:10:45] signal. You have choice with all four of

[1:10:48] those channels. You have choice and

[1:10:50] there are things

[1:10:50] >> kind of like your personal brand.

[1:10:52] >> It's your charisma flavor. Exactly. We

[1:10:54] use how you present yourself.

[1:10:56] >> That's it. So your I believe you can

[1:10:58] kind of create a recipe for your brand.

[1:11:00] You can create a recipe for your

[1:11:01] charisma flavor. For example, look at

[1:11:03] Oprah and Steve Jobs. Both of those

[1:11:06] people are charismatic, but they signal

[1:11:09] totally differently. They have their own

[1:11:12] blend of cues. And this is really

[1:11:13] important because sometimes I'm like

[1:11:15] clipped on social media of like always

[1:11:17] do blleh or never do ble cuz I know that

[1:11:20] they go crazy, but really I want you to

[1:11:22] create your recipe, right? Like some

[1:11:23] cues will work for some people and some

[1:11:24] won't work for others. Like for example,

[1:11:26] like this is a steeple. This is a high

[1:11:28] competence cue. So, when we touch the

[1:11:30] tips of our fingers together, for anyone

[1:11:31] who's just listening, you touch the tips

[1:11:33] of your fingers together to make like a

[1:11:34] little steeple. This is rated research-

[1:11:37] wise as the most competent gesture a

[1:11:39] leader can make.

[1:11:40] >> Come on.

[1:11:40] >> Rated. Yes. As the most competent

[1:11:42] gesture a leader can make. It's kind of

[1:11:44] like a power pose for the hands. It

[1:11:45] makes you look sort of wise and thought

[1:11:47] out. Now, don't drum. That's very evil,

[1:11:49] right? Like that's very that little

[1:11:51] difference.

[1:11:53] I'm going to take over the the nuclear

[1:11:55] power plant, right? So, just like that

[1:11:57] just even that is different, right? Like

[1:11:58] so this uh poise versus like drumming.

[1:12:01] So you can choose to do a steeple to

[1:12:04] look competent if you feel competent if

[1:12:07] you want to. But some people are like

[1:12:09] >> that feels weird. Yeah.

[1:12:10] >> Feels weird. Great.

[1:12:11] >> It's like a power move or something or

[1:12:12] >> great. So that's why like Kevin Olirri

[1:12:14] on Shark Tank.

[1:12:15] >> He's always doing it and that is natural

[1:12:17] to him

[1:12:17] >> and he kind of taps like this.

[1:12:19] >> Yeah. He tap he's thinking and you know

[1:12:20] when he's tapping he's really processing

[1:12:22] the math

[1:12:23] >> that is on brand for him. He is thinking

[1:12:25] about something highly competent and he

[1:12:27] is signaling it. We love it. Right? Like

[1:12:30] it is that clarity of signal and that

[1:12:32] alignment with his brand fits. I would

[1:12:34] never want you to do this evil if you're

[1:12:36] like feel silly. [laughter] I feel

[1:12:38] silly. Right? So then I'm going to give

[1:12:40] you other competent ideas, other

[1:12:41] competent cues. There are 97 cues to

[1:12:43] choose from. So you can choose, pick and

[1:12:44] choose. So another competent one if you

[1:12:46] don't like the steeple.

[1:12:46] >> What are three that you do a lot?

[1:12:48] >> Okay. So my favorite my favorite three

[1:12:50] in my recipe, right? This is not going

[1:12:52] to work for everyone, but in my recipe

[1:12:53] is I'm working pretty hard to stay in

[1:12:55] the lowest end of my natural tone,

[1:12:57] >> not up high.

[1:12:57] >> So, like when I'm talking to my girls or

[1:12:59] my kids, I'm usually talking up here.

[1:13:00] And if I'm talking up here for the whole

[1:13:02] interview, you'd be like, "What is she

[1:13:04] doing?

[1:13:05] >> She sounds like really crazy, you know?"

[1:13:08] >> But that's still those are both natural

[1:13:10] to me. But I like using the lower end of

[1:13:13] my voice, like the basement of my voice.

[1:13:15] Um, it helps me feel more grounded. it.

[1:13:17] I I know when I am going a little

[1:13:19] higher, [gasps]

[1:13:20] >> I need to take a deep breath. I'm going

[1:13:22] to lower my shoulders. So, it's it's my

[1:13:24] own internal signal, but I also know

[1:13:25] it's clearly signaling to you that I

[1:13:27] feel good. So, a lower tone is one of my

[1:13:29] favorite cues. It's also could be called

[1:13:31] a power tone. I also would recommend

[1:13:34] >> at the end of your sentence, hitting it

[1:13:36] at the end. So, not going up, but going

[1:13:39] down. So, instead of my name is Vanessa,

[1:13:43] >> instead my name's Vanessa,

[1:13:45] right?

[1:13:46] that is going to give a totally

[1:13:48] different vocal first impression.

[1:13:50] >> Okay,

[1:13:50] >> so going down at the end of your

[1:13:51] sentences,

[1:13:52] >> thinking about using the lowest tone of

[1:13:53] your voice, that's one of my favorite

[1:13:54] cues. Um, I do use a steeple on the

[1:13:56] cover of Q's, so I do I do like that Q

[1:13:58] occasionally, but I know it can rub

[1:14:00] people the wrong way. And then another

[1:14:01] It's so hard to pick favorite cues.

[1:14:04] The other one that I really like would

[1:14:06] be a lower lid flex. So, a lower lid

[1:14:08] flex is when I harden my lower lids. Um,

[1:14:12] universally, human beings do this when

[1:14:14] they're trying to see better or hear

[1:14:15] better or scrutinize or listen. It is

[1:14:18] um, a cue of intensity. I'm a pretty

[1:14:20] intense person. I don't know if like

[1:14:22] when you're talking to me, right? Like

[1:14:23] I'm like with you. So, I kind of it fits

[1:14:26] my brand. Um, and so if I'm going to do

[1:14:28] a little lower lid flex, it shows you

[1:14:30] like I am so deeply listening to you

[1:14:31] that I want to like see everything.

[1:14:33] >> Yeah,

[1:14:33] >> that's that works for me, not everyone.

[1:14:35] >> That's beautiful. So, what is the new

[1:14:38] subtitle of the book? Okay, the new

[1:14:39] subtitle, how to connect with anyone and

[1:14:41] make every interaction count.

[1:14:43] >> It's beautiful.

[1:14:44] >> I like really happy that you brought up

[1:14:45] the liability thing because I haven't

[1:14:46] been able to talk about

[1:14:48] >> why and that nuance. And I I think that

[1:14:52] really that what we need to be doing

[1:14:53] right now is connecting. Yeah,

[1:14:55] >> that's more than more important than

[1:14:56] being likable. And it's, you know, my

[1:14:58] thing is having the courage to

[1:15:02] put yourself out there and knowing it's

[1:15:03] not going to be perfect in every

[1:15:04] interaction, you know, and the more you

[1:15:06] do those social experiments with

[1:15:08] yourself,

[1:15:09] >> just the more human you're going to be

[1:15:11] >> and the more likable you're going to be

[1:15:13] and you're going to make these

[1:15:14] conversations count. Okay. Wait, I have

[1:15:16] two challenges if you want to be brave.

[1:15:18] Okay.

[1:15:19] >> Challenge number one. This the safer

[1:15:20] one, but so good. Sit down with someone

[1:15:23] and invite them for a cornerstone

[1:15:24] conversation. A cornerstone conversation

[1:15:26] are these foundational conversations

[1:15:28] with people who matter to you. Could be

[1:15:29] a partner, could be a colleague, could

[1:15:32] be a best friend, could be a parent,

[1:15:33] could be a sibling.

[1:15:33] >> Do you tell them this is a cornerstone?

[1:15:35] >> You tell them. You send them this

[1:15:36] interview and say, "Lewis and Vanessa

[1:15:38] told me that we should have a

[1:15:39] cornerstone conversation and I love you

[1:15:40] so much or I care about you so much. I

[1:15:42] picked you."

[1:15:43] >> Then I want you to do all the questions

[1:15:45] we talked about in this interview or the

[1:15:46] nine power questions in here. I have

[1:15:48] three questions per level. You start

[1:15:50] with level one and you work your way up

[1:15:51] to level nine. But level three, right?

[1:15:53] the the ninth one is the hardest, right?

[1:15:56] So, you work your way up. That

[1:15:58] experience of going through those

[1:16:00] questions together is transformative. It

[1:16:03] will level up the relationship or not

[1:16:05] >> depending on who it is you're talking

[1:16:07] to. Okay? So, like you want to pick

[1:16:08] carefully. That's challenge number one.

[1:16:10] That's that's in interpersonal. My

[1:16:12] intrapersonal challenge like my just for

[1:16:14] your own growth if you're willing is to

[1:16:17] do a yap challenge. So, a YAP challenge

[1:16:19] is practicing the feeling of sharing

[1:16:22] your idea with authority, even if you're

[1:16:24] uncomfortable.

[1:16:25] >> Mhm.

[1:16:25] >> I want you to very briefly prepare for

[1:16:28] something that you believe in, a piece

[1:16:29] of advice or a tip. I want you to turn

[1:16:31] on your camera, press record, and film

[1:16:33] yourself for 60 seconds talking about

[1:16:35] that idea, and then stop. Don't edit it,

[1:16:37] post it.

[1:16:38] >> Yeah. One time.

[1:16:39] >> One time.

[1:16:39] >> Don't take 20.

[1:16:40] >> No re-records. No.

[1:16:41] >> Go.

[1:16:42] >> Because you'll feel what it feels like.

[1:16:44] It doesn't work in front of the mirror.

[1:16:45] it just doesn't work as well

[1:16:46] >> to feel what it's like in your body to

[1:16:48] feel uncomfortable and to do it and to

[1:16:50] push.

[1:16:51] >> You need stakes

[1:16:52] >> because if you just say, "I'm going to

[1:16:53] record this 20 times so I feel like it's

[1:16:55] ready."

[1:16:56] >> And that's tricky because when you've

[1:16:58] never done it before, you're like, "Ah,

[1:16:59] I don't sound good."

[1:17:00] >> Whoa. I Oh my gosh, my voice wavers. Oh

[1:17:02] my gosh, I don't use any hand gestures.

[1:17:03] >> What's this? I look like an idiot.

[1:17:04] >> Oh my gosh, my But like, tell them it's

[1:17:06] for me. Like, send it to me. That's

[1:17:07] fine. Like if you have one piece of

[1:17:09] advice for me, your favorite

[1:17:10] conversational tip, send it to me just

[1:17:13] as practice.

[1:17:15] >> I think that we're flexing. We're

[1:17:17] flexing.

[1:17:18] >> This is powerful, Vanessa. I want to I

[1:17:20] want people to get the book. Make sure

[1:17:21] you guys grab it. Conversation uh how to

[1:17:24] make every conversation count.

[1:17:25] >> There you go.

[1:17:26] >> And be likable hopefully along the way.

[1:17:28] >> Also too,

[1:17:28] >> because likability is one of the I think

[1:17:31] it's seven levels of influence by Robert

[1:17:33] Chaldini. I think likability is one of

[1:17:35] them. Liking is what it's called.

[1:17:36] >> Liking. Mhm.

[1:17:37] >> So there is something to being likable

[1:17:39] as well. Um

[1:17:41] >> they can follow you anywhere online. Van

[1:17:44] Edwards on social media, your YouTube,

[1:17:46] your Instagram, all these places. Your

[1:17:49] website is also

[1:17:51] >> scienceofpeople.com.

[1:17:52] >> Science of people.com.

[1:17:53] >> I do a social strategy every Monday and

[1:17:55] an icebreaker. So you can use them in

[1:17:56] your team meetings or your

[1:17:57] conversations.

[1:17:58] >> You have an amazing newsletter if you

[1:17:59] want to understand all these things

[1:18:00] better too. Um they can get the book

[1:18:03] right now. And um couple final questions

[1:18:06] for you.

[1:18:08] What is the question you cuz you're

[1:18:10] we're not going to say your true age,

[1:18:11] but you know early early 40s, right? You

[1:18:14] said it.

[1:18:14] >> I'm 41.

[1:18:15] >> Okay. 41. [laughter]

[1:18:16] >> What's the question your 50-year-old

[1:18:19] self

[1:18:21] would love to ask you right now that

[1:18:23] will support you in having the the best

[1:18:26] decade of your 40s?

[1:18:28] If your 50-year-old was in front of you

[1:18:30] right now and said, "Vanessa,

[1:18:32] >> here's one question I want you to think

[1:18:33] about."

[1:18:35] >> That's going to change everything from

[1:18:36] your relationships to business to kids

[1:18:40] growing up to you, you uh becoming this,

[1:18:43] you know, empowered version of yourself.

[1:18:45] What's the question your 50 or

[1:18:46] 51year-old self would be asking you?

[1:18:49] >> Maybe just because you've been doing it

[1:18:52] one way, does it mean you can't do it

[1:18:53] another?

[1:18:55] Like I think I've been in this business

[1:18:57] for so long, you know? I posted my first

[1:18:59] YouTube video in 2007.

[1:19:01] >> Wow.

[1:19:02] >> Right. I've been I've been posting a tip

[1:19:03] a week for 20 years.

[1:19:05] >> Yeah.

[1:19:05] >> Right.

[1:19:06] >> And I've been doing it the same way. And

[1:19:08] I I think it's time to maybe think of a

[1:19:10] different way.

[1:19:12] >> I think it's maybe time. And so the

[1:19:14] question is like,

[1:19:15] >> could you do it a different way?

[1:19:17] >> So I'm thinking about some different

[1:19:19] ways to do it.

[1:19:19] >> That's beautiful. It's beautiful. I've

[1:19:21] asked you this question before, but I'm

[1:19:22] going to ask you from the a new chapter.

[1:19:24] You know, I guess the last time you were

[1:19:25] on was four years ago.

[1:19:26] >> Yeah. Four years ago. Yeah.

[1:19:27] >> So, imagine you get to live as long as

[1:19:29] you want.

[1:19:29] >> Okay.

[1:19:29] >> But it's the last day on Earth.

[1:19:31] >> And you get to create and reimagine or

[1:19:33] reinvent your life in any way you want

[1:19:35] to from this moment till then.

[1:19:36] >> Yeah.

[1:19:37] >> You get to live as long as you want. Um

[1:19:39] but for whatever reason, you got to take

[1:19:40] all of your work with you. So, this new

[1:19:42] book is gone. This conversation's gone.

[1:19:44] All your content gone from the internet

[1:19:46] forever.

[1:19:47] >> But you get to leave behind three final

[1:19:49] lessons to the world. three truths from

[1:19:51] you. What would those three truths be?

[1:19:53] >> Funny because I've done this with you

[1:19:54] before. So, it's it's cool to see, you

[1:19:56] know, how my own work has changed.

[1:19:59] >> Um,

[1:20:00] >> ask for stories, not facts.

[1:20:03] >> Like, if you just that will get you so

[1:20:06] far. Connection is better than going to

[1:20:08] the gym.

[1:20:08] >> Mhm.

[1:20:10] >> Or just as good as going to the gym.

[1:20:13] And if you're lonely, you're not alone.

[1:20:16] You know, I think like I've had moments

[1:20:18] of being lonely in very crowded places.

[1:20:20] You know, I was lonely in Austin even

[1:20:22] though I was surrounded by friends and

[1:20:25] that was like

[1:20:27] what's going

[1:20:28] >> something's off. Yeah. Interesting.

[1:20:30] >> And if anyone's like that, I would just

[1:20:32] say like you're not alone and it it's

[1:20:34] not a prescription like it's it's a

[1:20:37] state. It can be fixed.

[1:20:38] >> Yeah. That's beautiful. Final question.

[1:20:40] What's your definition of greatness?

[1:20:42] >> Oh, like do I stick with my original

[1:20:45] answer? Always questioning.

[1:20:47] >> I love there

[1:20:48] >> yourself, others. Always questioning,

[1:20:51] >> always learning.

[1:20:52] >> Vanessa, thanks for being appreciate it.

[1:20:54] >> Thanks [music] for having me again.

[1:20:56] >> How you are on a first date is very

[1:20:58] different than how you are on a 10th

[1:20:59] date,

[1:21:00] >> right? And it's still all you, but you

[1:21:04] you have to change for the situation.

[1:21:07] [music] We have no choice. It's how

[1:21:08] society functions. If we all just want

[1:21:10] to be our quote unquote true selves all

[1:21:12] the time, society would break. It would

[1:21:14] be chaos.

ArtistLewis Howes

Author and podcaster who inspires millions through 'The School of Greatness,' blending personal development wisdom with vulnerable storytelling to help others achieve their dreams.

View profile Website

Explore Topics

Got Questions?

Why is "been busy" a bad question to ask in conversation?

Vanessa Van Edwards argues that "been busy" asks the other person's brain to search for examples of busyness, which reminds them of their overload or makes them feel they have nothing going on. Either answer closes the conversation rather than opening it. She recommends asking for stories rather than facts.

What are the three levels of connection in conversation?

In her book Conversation, Van Edwards describes moving from basic facts, the surface information people share in introductions, up to the private story a person tells themselves about their own life. Questions determine which level a conversation reaches. Asking about facts gets a fact back, while asking about meaning and experience invites deeper sharing.

Does talking to AI affect how we talk to people?

Van Edwards says that conversations with AI use a directive, assertive, non-reciprocal conversational muscle, and people may carry that mode into conversations with colleagues, partners, and friends. She compares conversational skill to the gym: it is trained through repetition, so the reps we do with machines shape the skills we bring to people.

Are voice notes as good as real conversation for staying connected?

Van Edwards says voice notes feel like conversation but lack feedback, eye contact, and the immediate reply that makes talk a loop. She contrasts them with synchronous conversation, meaning live exchanges by phone or video, which she says still trigger oxytocin and improve how people read one another.

Does a phone or video call produce oxytocin like in-person talk?

According to Van Edwards, yes. She says the body still produces oxytocin during synchronous phone and video conversations, and that this chemical makes people feel connected and a sense of belonging. Live real-time contact of any kind is what counts, rather than asynchronous messages.

How can I ask better questions in everyday conversations?

Replace questions that ask for status or facts with ones that invite a story, and follow up with "tell me more" when someone shares something. Van Edwards recommends practicing this with someone you love, since the goal is to move from surface information toward the private stories people tell about their own lives.

What does the statistic about loneliness in Vanessa Van Edwards's talk mean?

The episode description states that one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness, and Van Edwards says the figure is getting worse. She links this to the gap between having many conversations, including on screens and through AI, and actually receiving the connection people need.