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Inspiration

Why Most Skin Conditions Never Fully Heal: A Functional Approach

MH
Mark Hyman
Oct 7, 2026
10 min read

For decades, dermatology has operated under a simple logic: if it's wet, dry it. If it's dry, wet it. Treat the surface, and the skin heals. Yet millions of people suffering from acne, eczema, psoriasis, and rosacea know the truth: that topical-first model doesn't work. Chronic skin conditions persist, require endless management, and rarely resolve completely. The reason, according to triple board-certified dermatologist Dr. Mamina Turegano, is that conventional dermatology has been looking in the wrong place. Skin health isn't a dermatological problem—it's a metabolic one.

The gap between what dermatologists are taught and what actually heals skin represents one of medicine's most consequential blind spots. Standard training emphasizes topical and systemic symptom suppression: steroids, antibiotics, antifungals, and increasingly, biologics that quiet the immune system without addressing why it's activated in the first place. What goes unexamined in most residencies is the foundational architecture beneath the skin—the gut microbiome, mitochondrial function, hormone balance, and nutrient status—where most chronic skin disease actually originates.

Read · 8 sections

How a Dermatologist Discovered Root Causes

Dr. Turegano's shift from conventional practice to functional dermatology began early, shaped by her mother's Japanese background and exposure to alternative healing modalities that prioritized root causes over symptom suppression. When applying to medical school, she wrestled with the choice between naturopathic and conventional training, ultimately deciding that an MD would give her a platform to practice holistic medicine. What she didn't anticipate was how thoroughly medical residency would redirect that intention.

Dermatology residency, despite its reputation as a "lifestyle" specialty, proved grueling—a compressed education in countless conditions, pathways, and treatment protocols. Like most residents, she survived through sheer will, studying constantly, sleeping minimally, and ironically experiencing significant health issues during training for a field dedicated to health. She moved into conventional private practice, where the focus remained relentlessly on the skin itself: topical treatments, systemic medications, and immune suppression.

Yet her early commitment to integrated medicine never fully faded. As she practiced, a pattern emerged that contradicted what she'd been trained to expect. Patients treated according to conventional protocols—given steroids, biologics, and every topical innovation—rarely achieved true resolution. The inflammation would return. The cycles would continue. And more troublingly, the approach often created new problems: long-term steroid use brings profound systemic consequences, while biologics, though safer than steroids, suppress immune function broadly and increase cancer risk.

"It's like using a nuclear bomb for a mosquito," Dr. Turegano reflects on systemic steroid use for skin conditions. The immune suppression works, temporarily making patients more comfortable. But it's never fixing what caused the immune activation in the first place.

What Dermatologists Are Missing About Skin Aging

The conventional model treats the skin as an isolated organ—a surface to be maintained through topical interventions and external sun protection. Functional dermatology inverts that logic entirely. Skin health, Dr. Turegano emphasizes, is "really coming from the inside out." Yes, external factors matter: sun damage, harsh environmental exposures, poor skincare practices. But the vast majority of chronic skin conditions and accelerated aging stem from internal biology that dermatology has largely ignored.

Consider mitochondrial dysfunction. When mitochondria—the cellular power plants responsible for energy production—are compromised, skin cells age faster and function poorly. The research is increasingly clear: damaged mitochondria accelerate visible aging, reduce the skin's ability to repair itself, and lower its resilience to environmental stressors. This isn't a topical problem. No serum can fix mitochondrial DNA damage. But proper nutrition, metabolic optimization, and targeted compounds like Urolithin A—which enhances cellular renewal—can.

Or take insulin resistance, a metabolic dysfunction that has become epidemic in developed nations. When cells become insulin resistant, the body produces more insulin to achieve the same effect, driving systemic inflammation. For the skin, insulin resistance triggers multiple cascades: increased inflammation, accelerated aging, impaired wound healing, and barrier dysfunction. Many people struggling with recurring acne, rosacea flares, or premature aging don't have a dermatological problem—they have a metabolic problem expressing itself through the skin. Yet standard dermatology has no framework for recognizing this.

Muscle Building as Anti-Aging Medicine

One of the most counterintuitive findings in functional dermatology emerges from exercise physiology: strength training may be one of the most powerful non-topical interventions for skin health in midlife. A compelling study compared aerobic exercise to strength training in women across midlife age ranges. The results favored strength training decisively: participants who engaged in strength training developed a thicker dermis—the layer where collagen resides and where skin's structural integrity is determined.

The mechanism explains why. Strength training increases insulin sensitivity, which "takes a load off your cells" by reducing the metabolic stress of elevated insulin. Simultaneously, it decreases systemic inflammation and optimizes mitochondrial function. When mitochondria in dermal cells work better, they build more collagen. The skin thickens. Texture improves. Fine lines diminish. The anti-aging effect is real, measurable, and entirely internal.

This insight reveals a fundamental flaw in how dermatology approaches aging skin: it prioritizes topical applications and procedures while ignoring one of the most evidence-backed interventions available. A woman who lifts weights three times weekly while neglecting her skincare routine may have better skin than one who uses premium serums but remains sedentary. Dermatology textbooks don't teach this because it falls outside the dermatology domain. But skin health doesn't respect professional boundaries.

The Root Causes Dermatology Overlooks

When Dr. Hyman began practicing functional medicine three decades ago, he observed a pattern that would become foundational to functional dermatology: chronic skin conditions that conventional dermatology deemed incurable—dermatitis, eczema, psoriasis, acne, rosacea—often resolved when he addressed internal factors. Improving nutrition, optimizing gut flora, removing toxins, and identifying food sensitivities repeatedly yielded transformations that topical treatments alone never achieved.

Dr. Turegano's framework for investigating root causes centers on several interconnected systems:

  • Gut health and the microbiome: The gut lining's integrity directly influences systemic inflammation and immune dysregulation. A compromised barrier—often triggered by poor diet, dysbiosis, or food sensitivities—creates a cascade of inflammation that manifests in the skin.
  • Nutrient status: Deficiencies in zinc, vitamin D, omega-3 fatty acids, and other micronutrients impair skin cell turnover, collagen synthesis, and barrier function. Most people with chronic skin conditions harbor undetected nutritional gaps.
  • Food sensitivities and inflammatory triggers: For many people, certain foods (often gluten, dairy, or seed oils) trigger immune activation that cascades into skin inflammation. These sensitivities are invisible to standard dermatology but observable through functional medicine testing.
  • Hormone balance: Estrogen, progesterone, and androgens all regulate skin oil production, inflammation, and barrier function. Hormonal dysregulation—whether from thyroid dysfunction, adrenal fatigue, or menopause—often manifests as acne, dryness, or sensitivity.
  • Metabolic health: Insulin resistance, blood sugar dysregulation, and poor mitochondrial function underlie many of the inflammatory skin conditions that dermatology treats symptomatically.

The functional approach requires investigation before treatment: labs that examine lipids, vitamin D, fasting glucose, and insulin levels; microbiome testing; food sensitivity assessments; and hormonal panels. Only after identifying these root causes does targeted intervention begin—and typically, it doesn't begin with a prescription.

Which Skincare Actually Works (And Which Doesn't)

Dr. Turegano doesn't dismiss topical skincare entirely. Some interventions have solid evidence and meaningful benefits. The challenge is separating what actually works from the trillion-dollar skincare industry's elaborate mythology.

Retinoids remain among the few topical interventions with robust data supporting their benefit. They increase cell turnover, stimulate collagen production, improve texture, and reduce fine lines. Unlike many skincare ingredients that make marketing claims but lack clinical evidence, retinoids have decades of research backing their efficacy. Similarly, vitamin C—when properly formulated and stabilized—offers antioxidant protection and can support collagen synthesis. These aren't miracles, but they're legitimate tools.

Topical copper peptides represent another evidence-backed option, demonstrating benefits for collagen and elastin support. And hyaluronic acid, while not "rewriting" skin as marketing suggests, does provide meaningful hydration when applied properly.

But the skincare industry spends "millions and millions of dollars" marketing ingredients with minimal or no clinical evidence. Many products boast celebrity endorsements and sophisticated marketing while delivering marginal or invisible benefits. The burden falls on consumers to distinguish between what's proven and what's promoted.

Crucially, functional dermatology views topical skincare as supportive rather than foundational. Even the best retinoid serum cannot overcome poor gut health, uncontrolled blood sugar, or mitochondrial dysfunction. The inside-out paradigm means that topical interventions optimize an already-healthy system rather than compensate for a dysfunctional one.

Addressing the Environmental and Inflammatory Burden

Beyond food and metabolic factors, environmental toxins contribute significantly to skin aging and dysfunction. The Environmental Working Group (EWG) database catalogs the absorption rates and safety profiles of ingredients commonly used in skincare, sunscreens, and cosmetics. Many absorb systemically at concerning levels, accumulate in tissues, and carry endocrine-disrupting or aging-accelerating properties.

Stress itself represents an often-underestimated driver of skin problems. Chronic stress elevates cortisol, which impairs immune regulation, increases inflammation, damages the skin barrier, and accelerates aging. Yet stress is rarely addressed in dermatological care. Functional medicine, by contrast, views stress management—through practices like meditation, adequate sleep, and nervous system regulation—as central to healing.

The goal isn't perfect purity but informed choice. Understanding which chemicals actually penetrate skin, which ones carry documented risks, and which products deliver what they promise allows people to make decisions aligned with their values and their skin's actual needs.

A Different Framework for Chronic Conditions

The difference between conventional and functional dermatology isn't just the treatments offered; it's the fundamental question being asked. Conventional dermatology asks: "What medication best suppresses this symptom?" Functional dermatology asks: "Why is this symptom appearing, and what internal dysfunction is it reflecting?"

That reorientation transforms the entire patient experience. Rather than accepting a diagnosis of "chronic eczema" that requires lifelong management with steroids or biologics, functional dermatology investigates whether the eczema stems from a leaky gut, undetected food sensitivities, nutritional deficiencies, hormonal dysregulation, or dysbiosis. Once identified, these root causes can be addressed. Healing becomes possible, not just management.

This approach requires patience, investigation, and willingness to address lifestyle factors that standard dermatology typically ignores. It also requires dermatologists to step outside their training and consider systems—the gut, the mitochondria, the endocrine system—that most residencies barely mention. But for the millions of people whose skin conditions have proven resistant to conventional treatment, that expansion represents hope.

Where to go from here

If you're struggling with a chronic skin condition or accelerated aging, the first step is investigating your internal biology rather than assuming the answer lies in a new topical product. Request labs examining vitamin D, lipid profiles, fasting glucose, and insulin levels. Consider a functional medicine practitioner or a dermatologist trained in functional approaches who can assess your gut health, identify food sensitivities, and evaluate your metabolic status. Simultaneously, implement foundational practices that dermatology has historically ignored: strength training to build collagen and improve insulin sensitivity, stress management to lower cortisol and systemic inflammation, sleep optimization to support cellular repair, and a nutrient-dense diet free of inflammatory triggers. These interventions won't show results overnight, but they address the actual roots of skin dysfunction rather than cycling through treatments that suppress symptoms while the underlying causes persist.

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Transcript

[0:00] You said that muscle building is one of

[0:02] the best ways that's a non-skin care

[0:04] intervention for healthier skin in

[0:05] midlife. [music] Can you kind of unpack

[0:06] that?

[0:07] >> There is a study that was really

[0:08] interesting about women in their kind of

[0:09] midlife age range. They compared them

[0:11] doing aerobic exercise to strength

[0:15] training. The participants who were

[0:17] strength training actually had a thicker

[0:19] dermis. You know, so dermis is where our

[0:22] collagen sits. When you're strength

[0:23] [music] training, you're increasing

[0:24] insulin sensitivity and then that kind

[0:26] of takes a load off of your cells.

[0:28] You're you're decreasing inflammation as

[0:30] well. Your mitochondria are optimally

[0:32] functioning when your cells [music] in

[0:34] the dermis are affected by that, they're

[0:36] going to work better, they're going to

[0:37] build more collagen.

[0:38] >> Hey everybody, I got some really

[0:40] exciting news. The Doctor Hyman Show is

[0:42] a finalist for two Signal Awards this

[0:44] year. Now, our first nomination is for

[0:46] the best live podcast for my

[0:48] conversation with Halle Berry at

[0:49] Eudemonic Brain. We had an incredible

[0:51] discussion about menopause, women's

[0:53] health, and why we completely need to

[0:56] rethink how to support women through

[0:57] this stage of life. We're also nominated

[0:59] for my phone leadership for my

[1:01] conversation with Doctors Michael Akon

[1:03] and Ray Dorsey about the alarming rise

[1:05] of Parkinson's disease and what the

[1:07] latest science is teaching us about the

[1:09] connection between the gut and the

[1:10] brain, environmental toxins, and a whole

[1:12] bunch more. And I'm really proud of both

[1:13] these conversations and now we need your

[1:15] help. Please help me.

[1:17] Voting is open through October 15th.

[1:19] Just head to vote.signalaward.com

[1:22] and vote for The Doctor Hyman Show. And

[1:24] as always, thank you for listening, for

[1:26] watching, for sharing these

[1:27] conversations, and being part of this

[1:29] community. We couldn't do it without

[1:31] you.

[1:32] Dr. Mia, welcome to the podcast.

[1:33] >> Thank you so much for having me.

[1:35] >> You know, I've never had a dermatologist

[1:36] on. I'm very excited about this because

[1:38] [music] when I started practicing

[1:39] functional medicine 30 years ago and

[1:42] treating people's health issues,

[1:43] >> [music]

[1:44] >> I would notice that their skin would get

[1:45] better

[1:46] by improving their nutrition, by

[1:48] optimizing their gut flora, by helping

[1:50] them get rid of toxins, by

[1:53] dealing with, you know, food

[1:55] sensitivities. And it was quite it was

[1:57] quite amazing to me how things that were

[1:59] really chronic, persistent conditions

[2:02] like dermatitis issues like eczema,

[2:04] psoriasis, acne, rosacea, like a lot of

[2:07] the bread and butter stuff just

[2:10] people have. It doesn't go away. And it

[2:13] has to be managed It has to be managed.

[2:15] It has to be

[2:16] treated with medication. It's

[2:19] And you know, traditional

[2:20] dermatologists, at least the way I

[2:21] learned it cuz I'm a family doctor, I

[2:22] learned dermatology

[2:23] >> Yeah.

[2:25] >> [laughter]

[2:25] >> the basic stuff was to put lotions,

[2:27] potions, gels, salves, creams, whatever

[2:29] you could put on the top

[2:32] to actually fix the problem, whether it

[2:34] was steroids or antibiotics or

[2:36] antifungals or whatever the thing was.

[2:39] If it's wet, dry. If it's dry, wet.

[2:41] Whatever like the

[2:42] >> Right, right. Yeah, that that's how with

[2:43] how they would teach that.

[2:44] >> And I came to quickly understand when I

[2:46] started practicing functional medicine

[2:47] was that the skin health is really

[2:49] coming from the inside out. Yes, if you

[2:52] have sun damage. Yes, if you, you know,

[2:54] do things that harm your skin from the

[2:56] outside, it can be an issue.

[2:58] But a lot of skin health and the

[3:00] treatment of chronic skin conditions,

[3:01] which a lot of people suffer from,

[3:04] is from the inside out. And it's dealing

[3:07] with the foundational things of

[3:07] nutrition, of gut health, of

[3:11] optimizing nutrient status. And so I

[3:14] think that I I kind [clears throat] of

[3:15] want to get into, you know, how you came

[3:17] into this field from a traditional

[3:19] dermatologist and sort of had this

[3:21] awakening that And and I know you kind

[3:23] of were sort of a little bit open to

[3:24] this cuz your mom is Japanese and you

[3:26] learn about Eastern medicine how how you

[3:29] really kind of flipped the switch and

[3:31] said, "Oh, maybe there's a different way

[3:33] to approach these chronic dermatological

[3:35] conditions that cause so much

[3:36] suffering." So, tell us how you kind of

[3:38] started to kind of understand that there

[3:39] was a different way of thinking about

[3:41] it. And let's sort of unpack some of the

[3:43] basic foundations of integrative

[3:45] functional dermatology.

[3:46] >> So, like you mentioned, my mother's

[3:47] Japanese. So, just from a young age I've

[3:50] been exposed to alternative approaches

[3:51] to healing instead of just, you know,

[3:54] suppressing symptoms with, you know, an

[3:57] over-the-counter medicine or

[3:57] prescription medicine. My mom would

[4:00] incorporate modalities to really get to

[4:03] the root cause, or what I would think.

[4:05] And so, it just kept me, you know, you

[4:08] know, gave me an open mind. And when it

[4:11] came to applying to medical school, I

[4:13] was like, do I want to go to

[4:14] naturopathic medical school versus like

[4:16] an allopathic conventional medical

[4:17] school? And I was so torn.

[4:19] And I decided, you know,

[4:21] if I went the conventional route and got

[4:24] my MD, I could always practice,

[4:26] you know, holistic forms of medicine,

[4:27] functional medicine,

[4:29] uh with that background. And

[4:31] >> That's kind of the same way I felt like

[4:32] I was going to study Chinese medicine. I

[4:33] was like, yeah, you know, like I think

[4:35] if I had an MD behind my name, I can do

[4:36] more stuff and be more like

[4:38] think

[4:39] >> And oh my gosh, and as you know, like

[4:40] when you're in med school and residency,

[4:41] I just feel like I just got sucked into

[4:43] this vacuum. I was barely just trying to

[4:45] survive, like just studying all the

[4:48] time, not sleeping.

[4:49] >> brainwashing, yeah.

[4:50] >> It really is. It's It's so ironic, like

[4:52] just the health

[4:54] like stress that we put our bodies

[4:55] through with medical residency and

[4:58] medical school. And so, I definitely

[5:00] experienced a lot of health issues just

[5:02] going through all that. And

[5:04] and really there's

[5:05] derm residency, even though derm is kind

[5:08] of a fun, more, you know, people think

[5:10] it's like a a fun field. It's not as

[5:12] Some people don't take it as seriously

[5:14] as like, you know, thoracic surgery. But

[5:17] but it's such a hard residency. There's

[5:19] such a learning curve cuz there's so

[5:20] much to learn in derm residency that you

[5:22] don't learn in medical school. And

[5:24] so, I just kind of got sucked into that

[5:26] and went into conventional private

[5:27] practice. But I was always so interested

[5:29] in taking a holistic approach. Like I

[5:30] was president of the integrated medicine

[5:32] interest group during med school. And as

[5:34] I was practicing, uh you know, as you

[5:36] mentioned, we we put a lot of we focus a

[5:39] lot on skin, like topical treatments. We

[5:41] do a lot of systemic treatments as well,

[5:42] but so much of it revolves around

[5:44] suppressing inflammation.

[5:46] >> You can use oral steroids, but that's

[5:48] that's another

[5:49] That's a pretty serious

[5:51] >> It's It's

[5:51] >> Like using a nuclear bomb for like a

[5:53] >> Yeah, it's like using a nuclear bomb.

[5:55] And long-term use, there's so many

[5:57] issues that come with that. But also

[5:59] even like biologics, too, which are

[6:01] there are They're safer than steroids,

[6:04] but there are also a lot of

[6:05] ramifications with biologic use.

[6:07] >> And biologics, just I'll interrupt you

[6:09] for a second, is basically this class of

[6:10] drugs that is suppresses your immune

[6:12] system.

[6:13] >> Yes.

[6:14] >> And and, you know, generally works well

[6:16] and doesn't have as much side effects,

[6:17] but does increase risk of cancer and

[6:20] also lowers your immune system function,

[6:22] so you're more likely to get serious

[6:23] infections.

[6:24] >> Yeah, more so with the anti-TNF class,

[6:27] the newer classes.

[6:28] They're becoming more specific, so they

[6:30] are more safe, but still, yeah, it's the

[6:32] premise of they're all suppressing your

[6:33] immune system. And it's just like let's

[6:36] just shut up the immune system so that

[6:39] you can live in peace, but what I've

[6:40] noticed just practicing more and more is

[6:43] that it's not really getting to the root

[6:44] cause. Like I'm so grateful for

[6:46] treatments because it makes people more

[6:48] comfortable, it makes them survive their

[6:50] day-to-day, but it's not really getting

[6:53] to the root cause.

[6:54] >> So how do you then think about

[6:55] approaching dermatology now from this

[6:57] new set of lenses and perspectives that

[6:59] you have about how skin health is really

[7:02] from the inside out and is a systemic

[7:04] problem, not just a skin problem? Your

[7:06] skin is a reflection of what's happening

[7:07] in the rest of your body. So how how how

[7:09] do you think about that? How do you

[7:10] approach these patients who come in with

[7:12] these really

[7:14] intractable conditions that, you know,

[7:15] require basically a sledgehammer. We use

[7:17] sledgehammers in medicine.

[7:19] >> I know we do.

[7:19] >> And it's just No, there's a different

[7:21] approach.

[7:22] >> So when somebody comes in, obviously

[7:23] take a thorough medical history, look at

[7:26] their background.

[7:27] But I also go beyond that and look at

[7:29] what they're eating, how they're

[7:31] sleeping, what the stress is like in

[7:33] their life. What hormonal changes they

[7:35] could be going through? Are they going

[7:37] through menopause? What are their

[7:38] environmental exposures? Are Are

[7:40] traveling a lot? What kind of

[7:42] environment are they living in?

[7:43] And

[7:45] you know, what are their what's their

[7:46] exercise habit like? So, really taking

[7:48] all of that into consideration and

[7:51] taking that into account before I come

[7:53] up with a treatment plan for them.

[7:54] >> So, what tend to be the root causes that

[7:56] you're you're seeing like clinically in

[7:57] practice? Like what are the things that

[7:58] are coming up over and over again that

[8:00] you're like, "Oh, I didn't learn this in

[8:01] residency or medical school, but this is

[8:03] actually something that is real

[8:05] that when I change this thing, it

[8:06] works."

[8:07] >> I would say gut

[8:09] and hormones

[8:12] are like the two biggest things that we

[8:14] see when it comes to a lot of the the

[8:17] major skin issues, whether it's acne,

[8:19] eczema, psoriasis, rosacea, hair loss

[8:22] even, too. You know, we're not really

[8:24] addressing those in conventional

[8:26] dermatology. We have a lot of wonderful

[8:28] treatments, like I said, to suppress the

[8:30] symptoms. We have a lot of things that

[8:31] can help acne, whether it's

[8:33] spironolactone, isotretinoin, but

[8:36] you know, it's not really healing the

[8:37] underlying triggers.

[8:39] >> Yeah, it's true. Like I I find that, you

[8:40] know, you start with nutrition and the

[8:42] gut and then you kind of work on

[8:44] optimizing that and then you kind of see

[8:47] what's left over.

[8:48] And then, you know, there are other

[8:49] things that might be playing a role.

[8:50] Like you said, hormones, we'll get into

[8:52] that. Mitochondria, we'll get into that.

[8:54] Exercise, we'll get into that.

[8:56] >> Yeah. Insulin sensitivity.

[8:57] >> Insulin resistance, which is a big thing

[9:00] for skin health, which people don't

[9:01] realize, which is affecting to some

[9:03] degree 90 plus percent of Americans.

[9:06] Um you know, at Function Health with our

[9:08] diagnostics, we we measure insulin on

[9:10] everybody, which is not something most

[9:12] doctors check.

[9:13] And, you know, we're looking at the

[9:14] reference range from Quest, which is 18

[9:17] or above is abnormal.

[9:19] I mean, really optimal is probably less

[9:22] than five. I mean, I'm three, two to

[9:24] three. You know, as someone who's 66,

[9:26] who's healthy, who's fit, who's like

[9:28] metabolically okay, cuz I know what to

[9:29] do. That's kind of optimal.

[9:32] >> Yeah.

[9:32] >> But, we're seeing even at the reference

[9:34] range of Quest, 65% of members of our

[9:39] over half a million members

[9:41] have high insulin levels.

[9:43] >> Oh god.

[9:44] >> and have inflammation.

[9:46] You know, you're probably familiar with

[9:47] Nicholas Perricone and he wrote the

[9:50] wrinkle cure way back when and it was

[9:51] all about like inflammation and

[9:53] oxidative stress and and so the question

[9:55] is like what is causing this

[9:57] inflammation? What is causing all this

[9:59] damage? And it is is things that we can

[10:01] actually identify. So diagnostically,

[10:03] how do you think about approaching these

[10:05] these patients with these chronic

[10:06] illnesses? What do you what do you

[10:07] testing? What are you looking for? How

[10:09] do you sort of do a essential

[10:11] differential diagnosis but based on a

[10:13] a new set of of lenses that you're

[10:15] looking through?

[10:16] >> There's people who come in wanting to,

[10:18] you know, help their skin with wrinkles

[10:21] and like kind of coming in for

[10:23] anti-aging treatments. So that's a

[10:24] separate kind of diagnostic approach.

[10:26] But for people coming with chronic

[10:27] inflammatory issues, whether it's acne,

[10:29] psoriasis, eczema,

[10:30] I do think that it's really important to

[10:33] look at their gut health and I will

[10:35] often collaborate with other functional

[10:37] medicine doctors or naturopathic doctors

[10:38] to do gut testing and really do a

[10:40] thorough examination. Is there yeast

[10:42] overgrowth? Is there an imbalance

[10:44] somewhere there? We do know that there

[10:46] are higher rates of SIBO in rosacea.

[10:49] Like that's been established. Higher

[10:50] rates of Helicobacter pylori.

[10:52] >> Mhm.

[10:52] >> And you know, we see that in even acne

[10:55] as well. Really looking at that and

[10:56] targeting those things if

[10:59] if they show signs

[11:01] >> Even fungal overgrowth for rosacea.

[11:03] >> Oh, fungal overgrowth, definitely. When

[11:04] people come in with acne, another thing

[11:06] I really like to look at is their

[11:07] insulin sensitivity or the resistance,

[11:09] testing their insulin level and even

[11:10] looking at the ratio of insulin to their

[11:12] fasting glucose. I think gives even a

[11:14] more accurate

[11:15] picture of what's going on with their

[11:16] insulin sensitivity. And yeah,

[11:20] in terms of testing, those are the main

[11:22] things and like I said, if we need to do

[11:23] more extensive testing like Dutch test

[11:25] to look at their hormones more closely,

[11:27] I will include, you know, another, you

[11:30] know, collaborative physician who who

[11:32] has more experience in that, but I do

[11:35] think that patients get frustrated and

[11:37] they're like, I just want to know why I

[11:38] have this. They're they're grateful for

[11:40] medications, but they're like, if I stop

[11:42] it, then it comes right back. So, it's

[11:43] it's it's not really solving, you know,

[11:46] the deep issue.

[11:47] >> Now, I also find that checking gluten

[11:48] sensitivity and antibodies to gluten is

[11:51] a big one, and especially for certain

[11:53] conditions, whether it's psoriasis or

[11:56] or there's a lot of data that gluten can

[11:57] be a player.

[11:58] >> Yes, yes. There Yeah, even like the in

[12:01] non-celiac patients, gluten can be a

[12:03] player in certain forms of psoriasis cuz

[12:05] some people with psoriasis can test

[12:06] positive for those antibodies, and for

[12:08] those patients, I do tell them to stay

[12:09] away from gluten. And then like some

[12:11] random other like dermatitis um flares,

[12:15] we can see gluten sensitivity.

[12:16] >> And acne is another one. Like it's a big

[12:18] one, you know. Um you mentioned insulin

[12:20] resistance, but again, like you know,

[12:22] when you have

[12:23] high insulin, in women particularly, it

[12:25] can cause high testosterone.

[12:28] Uh and then sugar. So, sugar

[12:31] is a big factor in causing acne. People

[12:33] don't realize that.

[12:33] >> Oh, huge. Yeah, sugar and dairy.

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[12:46] you, the hike that feels harder than it

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[14:43] And dairy, dairy's another one. And I

[14:46] personally have that. If I have dairy,

[14:48] like especially if it's like a American

[14:52] you know, regular dairy, but now it's

[14:54] not A1 or A2 or regenerative or whatever

[14:57] like or sheep or goat, I get pimples.

[15:01] I'm like it's like clockwork. Yeah. If I

[15:03] eat much dairy, I get pimples. And so,

[15:06] it you know, and I see this with my

[15:07] patients. So, dairy and sugar

[15:09] and you think about the acne industry, I

[15:11] mean it's

[15:12] >> Yeah, well, it's huge. And like if you

[15:13] talk to, you know, like my partner

[15:15] who've been practicing for 40 years, she

[15:16] said we did not see this much adult acne

[15:19] that I mean of teenage acne has been

[15:21] around for a while.

[15:23] Um but adult acne has been rising in the

[15:25] last few decades. And it's like it just

[15:28] makes you wonder what else is going on

[15:29] in our environment. Yes, I think that

[15:31] agricultural practices have changed like

[15:32] what we're feeding

[15:34] cows and like

[15:35] that could be affecting milk, the meat,

[15:37] all like the other endocrine disrupting

[15:39] chemicals that could be out there. I

[15:40] mean

[15:41] >> destroys the microbiome.

[15:43] >> I mean we're seeing more acne alongside

[15:46] like more rates of hypothyroidism, more

[15:48] hair loss, more infertility. Like

[15:49] there's something going on in our

[15:51] environment that's that's affecting our

[15:54] whole endocrine system, I think. Cuz

[15:55] these are all hormone based, a lot of

[15:57] it.

[15:57] >> Yeah.

[15:58] >> Um and like I also have my other

[16:00] theories. Like I do think that we live

[16:02] in a more stressed environment, too.

[16:03] Stress is so huge when it comes to acne

[16:05] as well as, you know, all these other

[16:07] inflammatory skin issues that we see.

[16:09] Stress can, you know, increase cortisol.

[16:11] So cortisol just sends a whole cascade

[16:14] of signals including just like increase

[16:16] inflammation in our skin, increase It

[16:18] makes our sebum more sticky. So like we

[16:20] get more acne from that, too.

[16:22] And yeah, so so we see that and and and

[16:26] I'm

[16:26] telling people to stop drinking coffee,

[16:28] but sometimes I do think that it can

[16:31] if people drink too much caffeine or

[16:32] consume too much that can artificially

[16:34] increase like their stress response in

[16:35] their bodies, too. Um so that's

[16:37] something I also talk about with

[16:38] patients. I'm like, "What's your sleep

[16:40] like? How much caffeine are you

[16:42] consuming?" I I sort of go in there as

[16:44] well.

[16:44] >> Yeah. I don't know if you kind of adhere

[16:46] to this theory, but a lot of these skin

[16:47] conditions are inflammatory.

[16:48] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, inflammation I would say

[16:50] is the base for everything.

[16:51] >> Yeah, and so typically in medicine we

[16:53] use anti-inflammatories or

[16:55] immunosuppressants or steroids basically

[16:58] to calm the inflammation down. But

[16:59] rather than going to the root of like

[17:01] why is there inflammation? So could you

[17:03] could you share a little bit about like

[17:04] your experience with some of these

[17:05] things and and what you've seen?

[17:07] >> When it comes to, you know,

[17:10] uh I'm just trying to think of like

[17:11] patient examples. Um

[17:14] I had a patient with

[17:17] terrible acne and she had all these side

[17:21] effects to the conventional treatments,

[17:23] spironolactone and isotretinoin. She

[17:24] would respond to them, but she kept on

[17:26] getting

[17:29] Like she like so spironolactone can

[17:32] affect your

[17:33] periods and she was not having her

[17:35] periods which

[17:37] which wasn't a problem, but it she was

[17:38] also just getting a little bit too

[17:39] dehydrated from it. Like it was causing

[17:41] her heart to race.

[17:41] >> That's a It's kind of a diuretic that

[17:43] also blocks testosterone, so it can help

[17:45] with acne, yeah.

[17:46] >> Yeah. And then with isotretinoin she was

[17:48] getting joint pain. So, we were working

[17:50] with a functional medicine doctor and

[17:53] she did some gut microbiome testing on

[17:55] her and saw that she did have yeast

[17:59] overgrowth and and fixed her fixed her

[18:01] yeast, but she also did some hormonal

[18:04] testing as well and gave her certain

[18:06] supplements to just help kind of with

[18:07] the hormone balancing and her skin

[18:09] clear. She didn't need any conventional

[18:11] treatments, which I was thrilled about,

[18:13] honestly.

[18:14] >> Yeah.

[18:14] >> Um and yeah, and then you know, when

[18:17] when when I talk about when when

[18:19] patients come in like psoriasis is too.

[18:22] So,

[18:23] with psoriasis

[18:25] I find that these patients

[18:27] have so many other issues going on. They

[18:29] have cardiovascular issues like

[18:31] metabolic syndrome. So, and then

[18:33] pre-diabetic, they have hypothyroidism,

[18:36] they have low vitamin D. There it It's

[18:38] like a full picture with with psoriasis.

[18:41] So, so I I try to also do other workup.

[18:44] I I do look at their thyroid, I do look

[18:46] at their lipids and their vitamin D and

[18:50] and make sure that we're addressing all

[18:52] of those things. They're usually sleep

[18:53] deprived. I find that a lot of people

[18:55] who do like night shifts where their

[18:57] circadian rhythm is completely flipped

[18:59] upside down, that really sets off

[19:01] psoriasis. It sets on a lot of

[19:02] inflammatory skin issues, but we do see

[19:05] circadian rhythm disruption being a huge

[19:06] one with psoriasis.

[19:08] >> I've seen a lot of psoriasis patients

[19:09] and I find it's one of the slam dunks of

[19:10] functional medicine and even though it's

[19:11] such a like called the heartbreak of

[19:13] psoriasis [laughter] it's like you know

[19:15] and the things that I found were gluten

[19:17] are really top of the list. So anybody

[19:18] who's got that I got check for sure.

[19:21] >> Mhm.

[19:22] >> gut issues and particularly leaky gut

[19:24] and food sensitivities on top of that

[19:26] and and and also overgrowth of yeast

[19:29] which is a common

[19:30] and then heavy metals which are kind of

[19:32] often overlooked. And so

[19:33] >> Yeah.

[19:34] >> if you kind of dig around in those you

[19:35] usually you can find a way through. You

[19:37] need to find a good practitioner like

[19:39] you or functional medicine doctor to do

[19:40] because it's not something that

[19:41] traditional doctors even think about.

[19:43] >> They don't and I know and I wish there's

[19:44] a lot of like

[19:46] people I don't know I feel like a lot of

[19:47] controversy out there on like doing some

[19:49] of these forms of testing but

[19:52] but to me we we we don't have all the

[19:54] answers with the conventional testing.

[19:57] And so yeah I I know I really appreciate

[19:59] like your mission to to really bring

[20:01] about these other forms of

[20:03] how do we find out the root cause of

[20:05] these patients whether it is with heavy

[20:07] metals or gut microbiome testing.

[20:08] >> And then the truth is there's not a lot

[20:10] of research money going towards these

[20:12] modalities of nutrition and gut health

[20:15] and things that are really kind of not

[20:17] long-term treatments cuz think about it

[20:19] like if you if you get someone on

[20:21] a drug for

[20:22] you know acne like a a retinoid I mean

[20:25] they're kind of on it so it's like it's

[20:27] great for the drug company.

[20:28] >> [laughter]

[20:30] >> Uh but if you treat someone and they get

[20:31] better and they're off everything not so

[20:33] good. So there's not a lot of incentives

[20:35] for doing the foundational things. It

[20:37] doesn't mean that because there's a lack

[20:40] of like large double blind randomized

[20:42] controlled trials that it doesn't work.

[20:43] I would say the absence of evidence is

[20:44] not the evidence of absence.

[20:46] And I think you know as a clinician I'm

[20:49] observing things over and over like you

[20:51] are and I'm seeing that you know there's

[20:53] a there there. And yes we need more

[20:55] research and thank god that the the

[20:57] Medicare the center for Medicare and

[20:59] Medicaid innovation put up a hundred

[21:01] million dollars to study chronic

[21:02] diseases using functional medicine and

[21:05] lifestyle medicine which is amazing.

[21:07] There's there is some things happening,

[21:08] but that's that doesn't mean we can't

[21:10] already just take advantage of these

[21:11] things. Cuz they're generally low cost,

[21:13] they're low risk, and they're very safe

[21:15] to do. Changing your diet, changing your

[21:16] lifestyle, exercising, taking a few

[21:18] supplements. Let's talk about nutrition

[21:20] and the skin. What Tell me your

[21:22] philosophy around what should be like a

[21:23] healthy skin diet? And also like what do

[21:26] you use when you start to treat these

[21:27] chronic issues like psoriasis or eczema

[21:30] or acne or so forth.

[21:32] >> Yeah, when it comes to a healthy skin

[21:33] diet, mostly evidence comes back to a

[21:35] Mediterranean-based diet. Basically, I

[21:38] would just call it like a well-balanced

[21:40] diet. So, adequate protein, adequate

[21:42] healthy fats, low sugar,

[21:45] adequate fiber. I think fiber is also an

[21:46] underrated thing. We're seeing

[21:48] definitely low fiber correlate with a

[21:50] lot of issues, a lot with acne. Um but

[21:53] anyway, so so that's the basic premise,

[21:55] but we also want to make sure that we're

[21:57] adding like adequate nutrients, vitamin

[22:00] C, polyphenol-rich foods

[22:03] or supplements, but but I would say

[22:05] foods would be the the best route if you

[22:07] can do it. Um and other flavonoids as

[22:10] well as like carotenoids are huge as

[22:11] well, whether it's like beta-carotene or

[22:13] astaxanthin. So, foods rich in those

[22:15] ingredients. I

[22:17] It's tough

[22:18] because I I try not to be overly

[22:20] restrictive with patients. I feel like

[22:22] it ends up backfiring.

[22:23] >> Mhm.

[22:24] >> Um but I'm like if we can at least make

[22:26] the goal of making it more balanced, you

[22:28] know, making sure you're having your

[22:29] fruits and vegetables. I know that

[22:30] sounds so cliché, but doing that and

[22:32] making sure you're having adequate

[22:33] fiber, healthy fats, minimizing the

[22:35] processed foods, minimizing the sugar.

[22:37] That's where we have the most evidence.

[22:40] >> Tho- Those are foundational principles

[22:41] for general skin health.

[22:43] >> Mhm.

[22:44] >> But then when it comes to people with

[22:45] chronic conditions, like I I find that

[22:47] elimination diets can be a great place

[22:48] to start.

[22:49] >> Yes.

[22:49] >> Basically, gluten, dairy, sugar,

[22:51] processed foods. It's like it just makes

[22:53] such a difference.

[22:54] >> So, where we have the most evidence for

[22:56] acne, it's it's dairy and with sugar.

[22:58] When it comes to dairy, it's more so

[23:00] skim milk than it is whole milk, but but

[23:04] the evidence is pretty compelling for

[23:06] really all forms of dairy.

[23:08] Uh

[23:08] >> [gasps]

[23:08] >> and then when it comes to

[23:11] and then and then increasing fiber, too.

[23:13] We we're seeing that lack of fiber is

[23:14] also contributing to acne.

[23:16] >> Look at that affects the microbiome.

[23:18] >> Yep, exactly. Yep. And then there's also

[23:21] this idea where if you're not

[23:24] you're not regular with your bowel

[23:25] movements, it can cause a build-up of

[23:27] like certain hormone metabolites as well

[23:28] that could potentially contribute to

[23:30] acne. So, something to think about when

[23:33] it comes to psoriasis,

[23:35] most of the evidence, like I mentioned,

[23:36] is Mediterranean diet, healthy fats. I

[23:38] try to supplement with omega-3s and

[23:40] vitamin D. And then gluten, it's

[23:43] interesting

[23:44] from what I learned is that if if they

[23:46] do have a sensitivity to gluten with

[23:48] like certain antibody testing, then I

[23:50] would definitely have them go

[23:51] gluten-free. I'm not as adamant about it

[23:53] if they're negative with those tests.

[23:55] >> I I find it's worth trying cuz there's

[23:57] there's two parts of your immune system

[23:58] as as obviously you know, but for people

[24:00] listening, there's the one that's

[24:02] forming antibodies, which we can test

[24:03] for, and there's the one that doesn't

[24:05] form antibodies, which is the ancient

[24:07] immune system or the innate immune

[24:08] system,

[24:09] that doesn't form antibodies. And

[24:11] there's a there's a good body of

[24:12] literature that a lot of people react to

[24:14] gluten from the innate immune system,

[24:16] which is not measurable.

[24:18] So, I I I find it often like a good, you

[24:20] know, you you know, just is a good kind

[24:22] of test for like 2 or 3 weeks, and not

[24:25] forever. And then and then you see. So,

[24:27] what like are there foundational

[24:28] nutrients you recommend for the skin?

[24:29] You mentioned omega-3s, vitamin D.

[24:32] >> I keep it pretty basic. Omega-3s,

[24:34] healthy fats in general, whether it's,

[24:35] you know, avocado, nuts,

[24:38] fish. I mean, not all the time, but you

[24:40] know, kind of the you know,

[24:42] incorporating the ones that are smaller,

[24:43] like I like sardines. I mean, if you get

[24:45] wild-caught salmon, great.

[24:47] And then when it comes to um

[24:50] other [clears throat] things to

[24:51] incorporate more, fiber, so that's just

[24:53] vegetables in general, fruits in

[24:55] general.

[24:56] But there's really not like one specific

[24:58] thing. You know, I meant like I

[25:00] mentioned carotenoids. I tell people

[25:02] really try to eat the rainbow, and I

[25:03] know you've like mentioned this, too,

[25:05] for for in general for like for skin

[25:07] issues, but um there's not like, oh, if

[25:10] you eat more of this specific food,

[25:11] you're going to you're going to get all

[25:12] better.

[25:13] >> Yeah, well, Nick because Perrone was

[25:15] talking about like wild salmon. I think

[25:16] omega 3s are so big. I find that if I

[25:18] would say like, what is the one

[25:20] clearly like clinically effective skin

[25:23] nutrient that I've used over and over

[25:24] again

[25:25] for skin, hair, and nails, it's omega

[25:28] 3s. If someone's low in omega 3s, at a

[25:31] Function Health, we test everybody for

[25:32] the omega index, and you know, you just

[25:34] want to be over 8%. Most people are not.

[25:37] Most people are quite low.

[25:39] And so, you know, we don't get a lot of

[25:41] you know, wild animals or wild plants or

[25:44] wild food, which is where typically

[25:46] these omega 3s are. So, I said I think

[25:48] it's important to supplement.

[25:49] >> Talk about how hormones play a role in

[25:52] skin and how I know you talk a lot about

[25:55] sort of female health and reproductive

[25:56] health and

[25:58] some of the things that happen on

[25:59] menopause. Like

[26:00] tell us about how how you help think

[26:02] women think about their skin health.

[26:04] >> Yeah, so

[26:04] >> And then and then we'll get into the

[26:05] aging and that like cuz I think we've

[26:08] been talking clinically about what are

[26:09] the health

[26:10] pathologies, let's say, which are you

[26:12] know, diseases of the skin, but then

[26:14] we're going to get into like just how do

[26:15] you make sure your skin ages well, and

[26:18] that's that's sort of topic, too, we'll

[26:19] get to, but I want to sort of

[26:21] sort of just talk about sort of hormonal

[26:22] dysregulation cuz you did mention gut

[26:24] and hormones as key drivers of skin

[26:26] dysfunction.

[26:27] >> Huge, yeah. There's different types of

[26:28] hormones. There's estrogen,

[26:30] progesterone, testosterone, the sex

[26:32] hormones, and then there's also thyroid

[26:34] hormone, which plays a big role with a

[26:35] lot of skin issues, and then insulin

[26:38] being another hormone. So, I

[26:40] [clears throat]

[26:41] I see all of those playing a role with

[26:43] how we age and how that can contribute

[26:45] to inflammation in our skin.

[26:47] So,

[26:48] I mean, just to kind of touch on each of

[26:50] them, when we see thyroid issues, we see

[26:53] more dry skin, we see brittle nails, we

[26:55] see more hair loss,

[26:57] we see yeah, just like

[27:00] decreased wound healing time, just like

[27:02] the circulation's not as robust. So, so,

[27:05] you know, when I see those issues,

[27:06] anytime somebody comes in with hair

[27:07] loss, I always check thyroid. When it

[27:10] comes to insulin, we talked about acne,

[27:12] so insulin resistance, we see more so in

[27:14] acne, we I can also see it in psoriasis.

[27:17] It can also contribute to accelerated

[27:18] aging, so that's something we like to

[27:20] look into. And then when it comes to the

[27:22] sex hormones and you mentioned

[27:23] menopause, so, you know, we have a

[27:25] drastic drop in estrogen

[27:28] when in like within the first 5 years of

[27:30] menopause. And estrogen is huge when it

[27:33] comes to just overall skin health.

[27:35] It plays a role and testosterone as

[27:37] well, testosterone goes down, too. Um

[27:39] and I'll talk about what the benefits

[27:40] are, but but with estrogen, it's it

[27:43] activates fibroblast activity. These are

[27:44] the cells that help build collagen. So,

[27:47] that's that's how, you know, collagen

[27:49] production goes down. It also

[27:50] contributes to increased like hydration

[27:52] in the skin, whether it's increased

[27:53] hyaluronic acid or just increa-

[27:56] increased uh lipid production in our

[27:58] cells. So, so, our skin barrier becomes

[28:01] altered, our skin becomes more dry when

[28:02] we have less estrogen. And it also plays

[28:05] a role in like the thickness of our

[28:06] skin, so we have what's called epidermal

[28:07] atrophy. And that's where you get like

[28:09] that kind of that creepy skin um kind of

[28:12] in that postmenopausal period. So,

[28:13] estrogen plays a really big role with

[28:15] that. It works alongside progesterone.

[28:18] And then like testosterone,

[28:18] testosterone's really huge when it comes

[28:21] to and the androgens in general when it

[28:22] comes to like oil production. And so,

[28:24] that plays a role with skin barrier

[28:25] dysfunction, that's why we always see

[28:26] dry, itchy people as they get older.

[28:29] Everyone just gets more dry.

[28:30] >> Are you a fan of hormone replacement

[28:32] therapy for women?

[28:33] >> I am a big fan. I think it does wonders

[28:35] for your skin. Yeah.

[28:37] >> And how how good is the how good is the

[28:39] data on that?

[28:40] >> Uh we haven't really there I don't think

[28:41] there's been like been a lot of amazing

[28:43] studies that are dedicated to looking at

[28:45] skin health and I would love for there

[28:47] to be more. It's more just It's kind of

[28:50] a side effect that we've been seeing.

[28:51] >> So, you basically clinically observe

[28:52] this. And And And And I think it's true.

[28:55] I think women do notice that. And I

[28:56] think, you know, it

[28:57] like you say that these hormones are

[28:59] really play a role. So, you talked about

[29:00] insulin resistance, you talked about

[29:01] thyroid dysfunction, you talked about,

[29:02] you know, sex hormones, all playing a

[29:04] role. So, I think I think, you know,

[29:06] getting your hormones tuned up is super

[29:07] important. And as

[29:08] particularly women as they go through

[29:10] perimenopause and menopause, there's so

[29:12] many things that start to happen. They

[29:13] get more insulin resistant, their

[29:14] thyroids often can go wacky.

[29:16] Their sex hormones are going wacky. And

[29:18] everything's going to kind of And then

[29:20] their of course their stress hormones

[29:21] are going wacky cuz they're in the

[29:22] middle of this sandwich generation with

[29:24] older parents and younger teenage kids

[29:26] and, you know, careers. And it's like

[29:28] it's kind of a soup of of dysfunctional

[29:31] hormones of insulin, thyroid, sex

[29:34] hormones, and cortisol, and stress

[29:36] hormones. So, I think I think that that

[29:39] that's often not really well addressed

[29:40] with traditional medicine. But there's

[29:41] ways to look at these things. There's

[29:43] ways to understand where you are.

[29:44] There's ways to work to optimize your

[29:46] health with these both with, you know,

[29:47] hormone replacement therapy, but also

[29:49] lifestyle, diet, and so forth. Let's

[29:51] instead of get into the skin aging cuz I

[29:54] think it's just sort of a separate topic

[29:55] that I want to dive into.

[29:57] Um but I just before we do that, I just

[29:59] want to close on this first bit by

[30:01] saying that if you have a skin issue, if

[30:03] you have psoriasis or eczema

[30:05] or rosacea or acne, which are the kind

[30:08] most common ones. Did I forget any? Did

[30:10] I forget any?

[30:11] Yeah. Yeah, and these are the bread and

[30:13] butter, right? The bread and butter of

[30:14] life. These These are things that have

[30:16] solutions that you're not necessarily

[30:18] hearing from your regular dermatologist

[30:20] that a functional medicine approach,

[30:21] integrated medicine approach can really

[30:23] help solve. And sometimes it takes a

[30:25] minute to figure it out, unpack it, to

[30:27] be a detective, but it's it's worth

[30:30] going into that route. And sometimes it

[30:32] does mean modifying your life a little

[30:33] bit. Like sometimes you can't eat

[30:34] gluten. Sometimes you can't eat dairy.

[30:36] Sometimes you have to fix your gut.

[30:37] Sometimes you Like there's things you

[30:39] have to do. work, which is why I think

[30:41] so many people don't do it, too.

[30:43] >> Yeah, but but but the other alternative

[30:45] is just to be miserable.

[30:46] >> Exactly. I don't know. For sure, for

[30:47] sure, yeah.

[30:48] >> Sometimes when you're craving something

[30:50] sweet, the answer isn't necessarily to

[30:51] have more willpower. It's worth asking

[30:54] what your body might actually be asking

[30:56] for. And one thing I pay attention to is

[30:57] whether I'm getting enough protein

[30:58] throughout the day. Protein is important

[31:00] for satiety, for muscle,

[31:03] for providing the essential amino acids

[31:04] our bodies need. And that's one reason

[31:06] perfect amino's has become part of my

[31:08] daily routine. I take it every day

[31:10] because it's a simple way to supplement

[31:11] my protein and take with all nine

[31:13] essential amino acids without adding a

[31:15] lot of calories. I especially like

[31:17] having on days when I'm traveling,

[31:19] working long hours, or just know that I

[31:20] haven't gotten a protein from food. It's

[31:22] a small thing, but for me, it's become

[31:24] an easy part of my everyday routine. If

[31:27] you're looking for help to fill protein

[31:28] gaps, go to bodyhealth.com and use the

[31:30] code Hyman 20 for 20% off.

[31:33] If you've been listening to this podcast

[31:35] for a while, you've probably heard me

[31:36] talk about Seed. The probiotic category

[31:39] is full of big promises and not always a

[31:41] lot of proof to back them up. But DSO-1

[31:44] is different. It's the number one

[31:46] digestive health probiotic, and when you

[31:47] look at the signs behind it, it's easy

[31:49] to understand why. There are three

[31:51] things that set it apart. First, it

[31:53] contains 24 unique probiotic strains to

[31:55] support the diversity of your gut

[31:57] microbiome. Second, its

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[32:01] protect those strains through digestion

[32:02] to reach the colon where most other

[32:05] probiotics just die in your stomach

[32:06] acid. And third, DSO-1 has been

[32:08] clinically studied and is shown to

[32:10] reduce bloating, alleviate gas, and

[32:12] improve regularity. It's not just

[32:14] marketing, that's real clinical

[32:15] evidence. And that level of scientific

[32:17] rigor is exactly what led me to join

[32:19] Seed's clinical board, and why I

[32:21] continue to recommend DSO-1 and take it

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[32:31] seed.com/hyman

[32:33] and use the code 25hyman. I I quite an

[32:35] amazing patient, I'll just tell you

[32:36] quickly, who has psoriatic arthritis,

[32:38] which is like an advanced form of

[32:39] psoriasis that affects the joints.

[32:41] >> So hard.

[32:42] >> It is a tough condition and at Cleveland

[32:44] Clinic we did a we did a study where we

[32:46] took our patients in our center for

[32:49] functional medicine

[32:50] were treated by the functional medicine

[32:51] doctors who had psoriasis or rheumatoid

[32:53] arthritis comparing it to the

[32:54] rheumatology patients in the

[32:56] rheumatology department, which is rated

[32:57] number one in the world for rheumatology

[32:59] at Cleveland Clinic.

[33:01] So these people know what they're doing.

[33:03] They really got and the training in the

[33:05] and they and the fellow looked at our

[33:07] data. We didn't analyze the data. They

[33:08] looked at our data. They saw their

[33:10] traditional rating scales from that they

[33:11] have in medicine for rheumatology

[33:13] >> Uh-huh.

[33:14] >> and we did better across the board

[33:17] in outcomes

[33:19] we using functional medicine not using

[33:21] drugs compared to them using all the

[33:22] drugs.

[33:22] >> Doing the usual things like looking at

[33:24] their gut

[33:24] >> The gut health, nutrition, yeah,

[33:26] everything, elimination diet, the usual

[33:27] stuff. And it was like I think it was

[33:29] shocking to them, but it was like

[33:30] obvious to me. I had a patient who was a

[33:32] psoriatic arthritis patient who had

[33:35] multiple other issues. She had

[33:36] pre-diabetes, she had migraines, she had

[33:38] depression, she had irritable bowel, she

[33:40] had reflux

[33:41] and obviously psoriasis um and and

[33:44] arthritis. And she was taking Stelara,

[33:46] which is a very expensive immune

[33:48] suppressing drug. And she was taking a

[33:50] bunch of other drugs from all like her

[33:51] neurologist and her psychiatrist and her

[33:54] gastroenterologist and her

[33:55] endocrinologist for her diabetes and her

[33:57] pre-diabetes and her migraines and her

[33:58] you know, it's like and they're all like

[34:00] these are the best doctors in the world

[34:02] and they are giving them the best

[34:03] treatments for that, but they're all

[34:04] treating like a like a blind man and an

[34:05] elephant. And I'm like what is the

[34:07] common denominator in this patient? It's

[34:09] inflammation.

[34:10] All these migraines are inflammation,

[34:12] pre-diabetes inflammation, irritable

[34:14] bowel is inflammation, reflux

[34:16] inflammation, joint pain inflammation,

[34:18] obviously psoriasis is skin

[34:19] inflammation.

[34:21] And I said look, I don't

[34:23] she had severe bloating and severe like

[34:26] reflux and all these symptoms. I was

[34:28] like I think you have SIBO, which is

[34:29] bacterial overgrowth. And I got I think

[34:31] you probably also have fungal overgrowth

[34:32] given how many antibiotics and steroids

[34:34] you've been on.

[34:35] And so I basically gave her a

[34:36] non-absorbed antibiotic, Rifaximin, and

[34:38] I gave her an antifungal.

[34:40] Not typical treatments for psoriasis.

[34:42] >> [laughter]

[34:42] >> No.

[34:43] >> And I gave her some probiotics and

[34:45] vitamin D and fish oil and I probably

[34:47] also zinc or something and not a lot and

[34:49] then and I put her off gluten, dairy,

[34:51] sugar, processed food. I basically put

[34:53] her on my 10-day detox diet, which

[34:55] essentially is an elimination diet to

[34:56] get rid of all the potential triggers

[34:58] for short term.

[34:59] She came back 6 weeks later and she

[35:01] said, "I'm better. Like I have no

[35:03] psoriasis, no arthritis. I stopped all

[35:05] my meds." I said, "I didn't tell you to

[35:07] stop your meds." She said, "Well, I

[35:08] know, but I felt better."

[35:09] No migraines, no pre-diabetes. She lost

[35:11] 20 lb, no more reflux, no more irritable

[35:13] bowel,

[35:15] and no more depression. And depression

[35:16] is also inflammation, right? In the

[35:18] brain. And so I was like,

[35:20] this is this is

[35:22] an example of a way that, you know,

[35:24] traditional medicine misses the boat.

[35:26] >> Mhm.

[35:27] >> Like they just kind of don't understand

[35:29] how to think about the problem. And that

[35:31] by using these other sort of filters to

[35:33] see the same

[35:35] symptoms and the same diseases, we see a

[35:38] different set of issues that are going

[35:40] on. And it's almost like we put on

[35:41] special glasses, like you put on

[35:43] infrared or night vision glasses

[35:44] [clears throat] and you go like, "Oh, I

[35:45] see what's going on." And then she, you

[35:47] know, she but but this is not People

[35:49] say, "Oh, that's an anecdote or

[35:50] whatever." And I'm like, "Yeah,

[35:52] I I've done this for 30 years and I can

[35:54] tell you there's hundreds and hundreds,

[35:56] I'm going to say thousands of patients

[35:57] across the spectrum of different

[35:59] diseases that have responded this way

[36:01] and not everybody responds to everything

[36:02] and sometimes it's a puzzle and like I

[36:04] had a patient with eczema who couldn't

[36:05] get better and I then I figured out it

[36:06] was mercury, but it's just it's it's

[36:08] really about being persistent. So, if

[36:11] you're listening out there and you have

[36:12] these issues,

[36:13] don't give up. There's a way forward.

[36:15] You might have to change your lifestyle,

[36:16] but it works. Let's get into let's get

[36:18] into aging. What's happening in terms of

[36:21] like skin as we age? Like what goes

[36:23] wrong and how do we how do we improve?

[36:25] Do you You some people like

[36:27] who look like a hundred when they're 45

[36:29] and people who are like 90 who look

[36:31] amazing.

[36:32] >> Well, yeah, there's different things

[36:33] happening at the different layers of our

[36:34] skin and I'll just like briefly touch on

[36:36] it. So, you know, the top layer of the

[36:37] epidermis, as we get older, our cellular

[36:39] turnover gets more sluggish. It slows

[36:41] down. So, that contributes to just kind

[36:43] of more dull, uneven skin. And I think

[36:46] of that phrase like smooth as a baby's

[36:48] butt because literally like babies,

[36:50] their skin cell turnover is every 2

[36:51] weeks. As adults, it's every 4 weeks.

[36:53] But then, like I said, as we get older,

[36:55] it just becomes more sluggish. So, so

[36:57] that's what creates like the build up of

[36:58] dry skin and like uneven skin tone. So,

[37:01] there's that. And then, you know, we

[37:02] have our melanocytes, which sit at the

[37:04] base of our epidermis, and these are the

[37:05] cells that produce pigment. And their

[37:08] activity just becomes more like

[37:10] unpredictable. Like some just poop out.

[37:13] They're like, "I'm just going to like

[37:15] release all this pigment." And we get

[37:16] like more sun spots and like uneven

[37:17] pigmentation as we get older, as well.

[37:20] And then, we're also, you know,

[37:22] producing lipids, and we have sebaceous

[37:24] glands that are living in the dermis,

[37:26] but then they get released into the

[37:27] epidermis. And lipids are also

[37:29] responsible, like I mentioned earlier,

[37:30] for keeping our skin hydrated, keeping

[37:32] our skin barrier intact. So, as we get

[37:34] older, we get more dry skin.

[37:37] And then, below the epidermis, we have

[37:38] the dermis. And the probably the biggest

[37:40] component is the collagen, which sits in

[37:42] the dermis. And I mean, there's other

[37:44] components, elastin, hyaluronic acid, or

[37:46] what we call glycosaminoglycans, which

[37:48] are these sugar molecules like

[37:49] hyaluronic acid, that sort of like live

[37:51] between the collagen fibers and support

[37:53] the collagen and elastin. And as we get

[37:55] older, we get breakdown of collagen, we

[37:58] get more disorganized collagen and

[37:59] elastin.

[38:01] And that contributes to wrinkles that we

[38:03] see. And that's a natural part of aging,

[38:05] but there's certainly things that

[38:06] accelerate that, which we can talk

[38:07] about. Below the dermis is the subdermis

[38:11] or the subcutaneous fat, which, you

[38:13] know, as we get older, fat decreases, as

[38:15] well.

[38:16] And then, below that is bone. As we get

[38:18] older, like our bone our bone starts

[38:20] resorbing and like, yeah, yeah, we we

[38:22] have decreased bone So like I think of

[38:24] it like a mattress, you know, like the

[38:25] mattress cover is like our epidermis and

[38:28] then the springs are like your dermis

[38:29] and then the actual bed frame

[38:31] is your as you know, your bone structure

[38:33] that's supporting everything. And so so

[38:35] we need all of that to look like a very

[38:37] appealing bed.

[38:38] >> From your perspective, you know, you

[38:40] know, you know, with functional

[38:41] integrated dermatology, how do you think

[38:43] about skin differently with aging? How

[38:46] do you how do you help people take care

[38:47] of their skin differently with

[38:48] nutrition, lifestyle, hormones, gut

[38:52] supplements

[38:53] >> I know. I love this question.

[38:54] >> Yeah, topical stuff does matter.

[38:56] >> It does matter and yeah, if you were to

[38:57] ask a conventional dermatologist,

[38:59] they're you know, there are a lot of

[39:00] things that we have so much evidence

[39:01] for, decades of evidence topically that

[39:04] can help your skin, whether it's

[39:05] retinoids, sun protection.

[39:07] Uh there's other things like vitamin C,

[39:08] like topical antioxidants. But but there

[39:12] are also things that we can do

[39:13] internally that really help

[39:16] our cellular activity, repair the cells.

[39:19] And like you mentioned, nutrition,

[39:21] stress, sleep, other like environmental

[39:25] like stressors. I mean, we know that UV

[39:27] is huge, but whether it's pollution or

[39:29] like under like other like endocrine

[39:31] disrupting, you know, you know,

[39:32] chemicals.

[39:33] These all come together.

[39:35] And then also just being sedentary, too.

[39:37] Um these all just come together and

[39:39] accelerate aging. Oh, sorry, I forgot to

[39:40] mention cigarette smoke. I mean, a lot

[39:41] of people I feel like are not smoking

[39:43] cigarettes as much these days. People

[39:44] still do, but cigarette smoke is huge.

[39:46] >> aging here.

[39:47] >> Yeah, very common there. But yeah,

[39:48] cigarettes and alcohol, definitely

[39:50] create more inflammation.

[39:52] >> Okay, say cigarettes, I think people

[39:54] understand if you smoke, you look kind

[39:55] of haggard and you get wrinkles fast.

[39:58] And if you want to wrinkle and age

[39:59] quickly, definitely smoke.

[40:01] But alcohol, I don't I I don't think

[40:03] people know. Can you talk about alcohol

[40:04] and skin?

[40:05] >> Yeah, alcohol can accelerate skin aging.

[40:07] So our bodies are exposed to a a variety

[40:09] of different toxins, but our liver,

[40:11] thankfully, is there to help stop

[40:14] uh or to help just kind of decrease that

[40:16] toxic burden.

[40:18] But when that burden accumulates, if our

[40:20] liver is stressed or distracted by

[40:21] things like alcohol or potentially other

[40:24] medications, then that toxic burden can

[40:26] increase and and increase stress on our

[40:28] cells, what we call like oxidative

[40:29] stress, and that causes cells to not

[40:32] function as well. So, when it comes to

[40:34] collagen, we're not building collagen.

[40:36] Inflammation from oxidative stress can

[40:38] also break down collagen more quickly.

[40:40] >> So so Nicholas Perricone was right.

[40:42] Oxidative stress and inflammation are

[40:43] key to skin breakdown and aging.

[40:45] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[40:46] >> So

[40:47] you mentioned collagen a few times.

[40:49] People hear about collagen.

[40:51] Um and they take collagen

[40:54] >> Right. Yeah.

[40:55] >> supplements. Is that a thing? Like Is

[40:57] there a data on it? Or is it just

[40:59] >> Yeah.

[40:59] >> Is it just window dressing? Like what is

[41:01] actually going on with the

[41:03] industry? Cuz you know, people think,

[41:04] "Oh, I'm taking collagen. I'm getting

[41:05] collagen." Is that actually happening?

[41:07] >> I know. It's It's not a straightforward

[41:08] answer. I would say overall, yes. I

[41:11] think that there's enough data to

[41:12] support collagen consumption.

[41:15] But, you know, a lot of the data that is

[41:18] pretty compelling is industry backed. So

[41:20] you kind of have to take that with a

[41:21] grain of salt. Um

[41:24] anecdotally, I do see I do see a lot of

[41:27] improvement in patients who do take

[41:28] collagen peptides.

[41:30] And yeah, just because you take collagen

[41:31] peptides doesn't mean that that collagen

[41:32] goes to your skin. It's more so that the

[41:34] collagen peptides can send signals to

[41:36] help your body build better collagen.

[41:39] But I also advise patients

[41:42] you I'd rather you also get better

[41:44] sleep, get some protection, decrease the

[41:46] stress in your life, um strength train.

[41:49] I would rather you like have that all

[41:51] dialed in before you're incorporating

[41:52] collagen peptides. I don't think it's

[41:53] like the easy switch to just add

[41:55] collagen peptides.

[41:56] >> You can't eat crap and be stressed and

[41:57] not sleep and just take a bunch of

[41:59] collagen supplements and think you're

[42:01] fine.

[42:01] >> Yeah, exactly.

[42:02] >> [laughter]

[42:02] >> But the short answer is yes, I do think

[42:04] that I'm on team collagen.

[42:05] >> great. Amazing. I think that's helpful.

[42:07] I think I've always wondered cuz I I you

[42:09] know, I think they're they're good in in

[42:10] gut. They can be

[42:12] good but I always wonder do they get

[42:13] really absorbed and used properly but

[42:16] the other thing you sort of we didn't

[42:17] really get into yet was sort of the the

[42:19] sun and you know I think UV radiation

[42:23] and then you know when you get a sunburn

[42:27] that's because the sun's creating

[42:29] oxidative stress and inflammation and

[42:31] damaging the skin and that's why you get

[42:33] a sunburn. Uh and that and that creates

[42:36] lasting damage. Um

[42:38] how how does that work in and and

[42:41] um and what happens in the mitochondria

[42:42] in the skin because we didn't really

[42:43] talk about mitochondria which are

[42:44] basically little energy powerhouses in

[42:46] the cells but they are also key to skin

[42:48] health and and can you kind of tie that

[42:50] together or how

[42:52] all that connects?

[42:53] >> UV radiation is probably the number one

[42:56] extrinsic factor that contributes to

[42:57] skin aging.

[42:58] >> So beauty from the outside in but also

[43:00] sun from the outside in.

[43:01] >> Sun from the outside in is huge.

[43:04] Yeah. I mean yeah we know genetics plays

[43:06] a role and all these other things sleep,

[43:08] stress, nutrition, exercise these all

[43:10] play a role but but we but by far it's

[43:14] and smoking too but by far it's it's UV

[43:16] radiation. And yes as you mentioned it

[43:19] increases oxidative stress in our cells.

[43:22] Basically it's it's causing like a

[43:23] localized stress response within our

[43:25] cells and it's causing DNA damage. And

[43:27] you know it's all fine because if you're

[43:29] healthy we have the DNA repair

[43:30] mechanisms in place that go in and like

[43:32] repair that DNA. We have like the

[43:34] antioxidants that can fight those free

[43:35] radicals those unstable molecules from

[43:37] oxidative stress and you know we can

[43:39] repair and heal from that but with

[43:41] enough hits your body's like okay like

[43:43] we've done enough and that's why you see

[43:46] those the consequences of just prolonged

[43:48] and like just chronic sun exposure come

[43:50] out later in life because it's like your

[43:52] body has already done so much to try to

[43:54] combat that that it just comes out later

[43:56] in life and so when you have this

[43:59] oxidative stress within your cells from

[44:00] UV radiation it affects the function of

[44:03] the organelles and namely mitochondria.

[44:05] The mitochondria

[44:07] I mean as we age, mitochondrial function

[44:08] does decline, but but stressors like UV

[44:12] UV radiation definitely accelerates the

[44:15] the mitochondrial dysfunction within the

[44:17] cell. So, when your powerhouse of the

[44:19] cell, the mitochondria aren't working as

[44:21] well, then that cell itself will create

[44:25] more oxidative stress to your body. And

[44:29] and like your body just has a harder

[44:30] time like fighting it. Like it it's

[44:31] almost winning. And then So, when your

[44:33] cells aren't working well in the skin,

[44:34] you get more collagen breakdown. Like

[44:35] those are like the fibroblasts, which is

[44:37] the cell that makes the collagen. Yeah,

[44:38] don't work well. And then yeah, it just

[44:40] continues. And then like your epidermis,

[44:41] the keratinocytes at the top layer of

[44:43] your scalp, they're I mean, our skin's a

[44:44] dynamic living breathing organ. You

[44:46] know, we think the skin's just there to

[44:48] like make you look good. Uh but no, it's

[44:50] doing so much. Um it's it's our cells

[44:53] are constantly regenerating. We're

[44:54] building things. So, when you have that

[44:56] mitochondrial dysfunction, which like in

[44:59] addition to UV radiation could be from a

[45:00] bunch of other things, but um when you

[45:02] have that, then yeah, that's that's why

[45:04] you can see a lot of cellular aging and

[45:06] then skin aging from that.

[45:07] >> Something people don't really talk about

[45:09] is like you know, skin health related to

[45:11] mitochondrial health and how much energy

[45:13] it takes to have a healthy skin. Well,

[45:14] as we age, you said the mitochondria

[45:16] become more injured and damaged just

[45:17] because of aging itself, because of

[45:19] insulin resistance, because of

[45:21] generalized inflammation in the body,

[45:22] because of sun damage, because of poor

[45:25] diets, because of all these reasons that

[45:27] we we accelerate mitochondrial injury.

[45:29] And it doesn't just affect the energy in

[45:31] in the cells in our tissues and organs,

[45:34] but in our in our brain, but also in our

[45:35] skin.

[45:36] And I I think some people don't really

[45:37] realize and then I would love you to

[45:39] talk about this process of sort of how

[45:41] do we how do we take care of our

[45:42] mitochondria

[45:44] and how do we think about like the

[45:45] repair and regeneration renewal of

[45:47] mitochondria? There's a concept in

[45:49] medicine called autophagy, which means

[45:51] cellular cleanup. Essentially means

[45:52] self-eating. Like at night when we

[45:54] sleep, our bodies will gobble up uh with

[45:58] lysosomes all these old parts and

[45:59] recycle them. But also the mitochondria

[46:01] have a process like that too. Well,

[46:03] mitophagy. So, can you talk about

[46:04] mitophagy and and skin and how that all

[46:07] connects? And and how accumulating

[46:10] damaged mitochondria leads to more skin

[46:11] aging and how to use mitophagy to help

[46:13] clear and fix that for healthy skin

[46:15] aging.

[46:15] >> Yeah, there's there's and there's

[46:17] multiple ways to address mitophagy. So,

[46:19] yes, mitophagy

[46:21] is what you said. It it helps clear out

[46:23] that kind of the damaged mitochondria

[46:25] that mitochondria that aren't

[46:26] functioning cuz they're really just like

[46:27] taking up space and then the cells

[46:29] aren't working as well.

[46:30] So, to optimize mitophagy, we want to

[46:34] decrease the stress in the cell, the

[46:35] oxidative stress in the cell. So, doing

[46:37] things like, you know, decreasing

[46:40] processed foods, those

[46:42] can, you know, add to the stress in the

[46:44] cell, decrease UV radiation. And that's

[46:47] a whole 'nother topic cuz I know the sun

[46:48] is important, too. Um, it's vitamin D,

[46:50] vitamin vitamin D, all of that. But,

[46:52] there's a way to do it responsibly. But,

[46:55] yes, but but minimizing like chronic UV

[46:57] exposure. So, there's that, there's

[46:58] nutrition. Actually, um,

[47:02] you know,

[47:03] sleeping adequately. Sleep is when we're

[47:05] doing so much repair.

[47:07] Not only, you know, within our within

[47:10] our skin cells, but like our whole body.

[47:11] So, so important. And then,

[47:14] uh, stress, minimizing stress. Stress

[47:16] contributes to more oxidative stress

[47:18] literally within our cells. So,

[47:20] minimizing that. I know we've talked

[47:21] about strength training. When it comes

[47:23] to to exercising, we know it's

[47:25] nourishing ourselves like with the

[47:26] circulation, but it's also, you know,

[47:28] improving things like insulin

[47:29] sensitivity. And when you when you have

[47:32] just all these other markers functioning

[47:34] better, then unless and you have less

[47:36] inflammation, your your mitochondria are

[47:38] going to work better. So, by minimizing

[47:40] all these things, you can

[47:41] >> And also increases the number and and

[47:43] the

[47:44] >> Yeah, the number of mitochondria

[47:45] >> of mitochondria exercise.

[47:47] >> yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, I know

[47:49] exercise I think is like so amazing for

[47:51] mitochondria.

[47:52] And and there's also supplements that

[47:53] you can take, too. Like it's it's we

[47:55] live in a toxic world, so it's hard to

[47:57] to really combat all of these stressors

[48:00] with our bodies. I mean, yes, we we we

[48:02] do have

[48:03] >> the foundations, but supplements help.

[48:05] >> foundations, but supplements do help.

[48:06] And things that are anti-inflammatory

[48:08] are helpful. I mean, you know, we talked

[48:10] about omega-3s for a while. And then,

[48:13] you know, vitamin D supplementation can

[48:14] also help with that oxidative stress,

[48:16] too, actually. And um and then I'm also

[48:18] a fan of things like urolithin A, where

[48:20] it really does target mitophagy

[48:22] directly. And you you can get some

[48:25] endogenous urolithin A, like, you know,

[48:27] it's a byproduct of like things like

[48:29] walnuts and pomegranates

[48:31] from your gut, but but I do think that

[48:34] oral supplementation

[48:37] can definitely and

[48:38] benefit everyone because it's like only

[48:41] 40% of people can actually create their

[48:43] own like urolithin A. So, um and

[48:46] urolithin A, we know, helps with

[48:48] mitophagy within your cells.

[48:50] And I mean, there's there's oral

[48:52] versions or topical versions, but that's

[48:54] something that I would certainly

[48:55] consider. I would also consider things

[48:57] like, you know, just polyphenols,

[48:58] whether it's through foods or through

[49:01] supplements. You know, there's decent

[49:02] data with EGCG, which is from green tea,

[49:06] >> Yeah.

[49:06] >> uh as well as like uh like cocoa

[49:08] flavanols. And then, we I mentioned

[49:10] carotenoids earlier, which include

[49:12] things like astaxanthin and beta

[49:14] carotene. These all help kind of reduce

[49:16] that oxidative stress burden within your

[49:18] cells, which then will, in turn, help

[49:20] with mitophagy.

[49:21] >> Astaxanthin is something that's in

[49:23] salmon cuz it's from the algae.

[49:25] >> Yeah.

[49:26] >> what the salmon eat that makes it them

[49:29] uh orange.

[49:30] >> Yeah, it makes it orange. Right, right.

[49:31] I know, some people

[49:32] >> It's like carrots. It's like the same

[49:33] thing.

[49:34] >> I know there's this trend with young

[49:35] people that's called like tan maxing,

[49:37] and they like are consuming all the

[49:38] these like carrots and astaxanthin

[49:40] supplements so they can like look

[49:41] >> I I did that once. I I wasn't

[49:43] intentionally. I just I heard carrots

[49:44] was good for me some way back when 30

[49:47] and I was drinking carrots every day and

[49:48] I was like, "Wow, I'm like orange."

[49:51] What's

[49:52] >> crazy. I I want to double click on your

[49:53] Urolithin A. For people listening, it's

[49:55] what we call a postbiotic. So, when you

[49:58] eat certain compounds, and these are

[50:00] polyphenols, can be pomegranate, green

[50:02] tea, cranberry, walnuts, whatever,

[50:06] your bacteria, if you have the right

[50:08] bacteria, will process that and create

[50:11] metabolites.

[50:12] And some of those metabolites

[50:15] uh have beneficial effects. So, you

[50:17] know, people understand that probably a

[50:18] third or half of the metabolites in

[50:20] their bloodstream are from their gut

[50:22] microbiome. They're not They're not made

[50:23] by your cells, they're made by these

[50:24] bacteria that are producing all these

[50:26] molecules. And when you have bad bugs,

[50:27] they're producing bad crap. And they're

[50:28] producing When they have good bugs,

[50:30] they're producing these beneficial

[50:31] things. And so, your Urolithin A is,

[50:33] like you said, most people don't have

[50:35] microbiome because of I mean, I I I give

[50:37] talks and I'm like, "Who here has never

[50:39] taken antibiotics?" And there's a

[50:40] thousand people like, "Nobody." Nobody

[50:42] will raise their hand. They're like, "I

[50:42] mean, once somebody raised their hand

[50:44] out of a thousand people." They're like,

[50:45] "Oh, I never took antibiotics." So,

[50:47] like, it's not very common. I mean, all

[50:49] of us have all of us have antibiotics.

[50:50] We kind of kill off the bugs. And so,

[50:52] it's really important to help um to

[50:54] support that those bugs. But also, like

[50:57] you you you can actually take

[50:59] a a supplement uh a Urolithin A

[51:01] supplement. And it's it's something that

[51:03] actually um I use every day. Uh

[51:06] uh both mostly from from from a

[51:08] metabolic function, from a brain

[51:10] function, from a muscle function, from

[51:12] mitophagy. I don't think about it for my

[51:14] skin so much, but now I do.

[51:16] >> [laughter]

[51:17] >> And and I think uh

[51:18] there's a lot of data on it. And one of

[51:20] the things it also does seems to is

[51:21] reduce inflammation. So, it can reduce

[51:23] CRP, it helps with all these benefits.

[51:25] So, I I think it's one of those

[51:27] supplements that has a lot of research.

[51:28] And I I think you know, there's there's

[51:30] really millions and millions of dollars

[51:32] of research on this, which is not

[51:33] typical for most products. So, I think

[51:36] I'm impressed by it. It's in published

[51:37] in Journal of American Medical

[51:39] Association, major journals. It's not

[51:41] like in some supplement journal

[51:42] somewhere. It's This is good science.

[51:44] So, I I think I think this phenomena of

[51:47] of

[51:48] um taking care of your mitochondria as a

[51:49] concept is really important. You're only

[51:52] as healthy as your mitochondria and as

[51:54] when you age your mitochondria decline

[51:56] and function declines and a lot of the

[51:58] things that we know for healthy aging

[52:00] whether it's you know overnight 12 to 14

[52:03] hour fast or whether it's exercise or

[52:05] whether it's

[52:07] these are all things that help your

[52:08] mitochondria function better.

[52:10] So I think it's so it's so important.

[52:12] >> with your urolithin A too there's I

[52:13] learned that you have to be cautious too

[52:15] with which products have your urolithin

[52:17] A. Like there's really just like that

[52:18] one like Mitopure that has the like the

[52:21] properly studied amount or like the

[52:24] accurate amount of urolithin A cuz like

[52:26] if you look at some other brands

[52:28] they've been

[52:30] studied like with third party testing

[52:31] and where it doesn't actually show like

[52:32] the adequate

[52:34] >> the dose the dose. Yeah if you take 1 mg

[52:36] of aspirin it's not going to do

[52:37] anything. I agree I

[52:39] I have been

[52:41] a big fan of Timeline Nutrition and

[52:43] Mitopure for a long time. I've taken it

[52:44] for a long time. I think you know that's

[52:45] why they're one of the sponsors of my

[52:46] show

[52:48] and I think you have to be transparent

[52:49] about it. I think it it you know yes

[52:51] they're they're sponsoring the podcast

[52:53] but also like I I looked at the science

[52:56] and you have and it you know it makes

[52:58] sense and and and it's it's valid

[53:00] science and it it it's impressive

[53:02] compared compared to a lot of other

[53:03] products people take. It's it's

[53:05] impressive.

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[54:52] When when someone has skin aging, is

[54:55] there a way to kind of reverse it or is

[54:57] it is the damage already done?

[54:58] >> There There There's definitely ways to

[55:00] modify your cellular function. I think I

[55:04] don't know if you you're going to be

[55:05] 100%, you know, reversible, but like you

[55:08] know, if somebody comes in they're 70,

[55:09] we're not going to make them look like

[55:10] they're 25. But there are certainly I

[55:13] know it, all right.

[55:14] >> 66, I was hoping for a miracle here.

[55:17] >> I definitely think that we can for sure

[55:19] optimize cellular function.

[55:23] You know, regardless of how old you are.

[55:25] >> You know, one one of the things that

[55:25] sort of ties a little bit into and I

[55:27] wonder if it ties into this into

[55:29] mitochondria is is this exercise and you

[55:32] said that muscle building is one of the

[55:34] best ways that's a non-skin care

[55:36] intervention for healthier skin in

[55:37] midlife. And

[55:39] I don't really understand how strength

[55:40] training would affect the skin. Can you

[55:42] kind of unpack that for

[55:43] >> I know. Yeah, um they're basing that off

[55:45] of there is a study that was really

[55:46] interesting. It was a small study. It

[55:48] was like 60 or so participants. They

[55:51] were mid women in their kind of midlife

[55:53] age range. And they compared them doing

[55:56] aerobic exercise to strength training.

[56:00] And they both showed improvement with

[56:01] like hydration and barrier function in

[56:03] the skin. But they actually So and they

[56:05] they were measuring, you know, different

[56:07] layers of the skin. The

[56:10] the participants who were who were

[56:11] strength training actually had a thicker

[56:14] dermis. You know, so dermis is where our

[56:16] collagen sits.

[56:18] And I think that it makes sense. You

[56:21] know, when you are, you know, when

[56:24] you're strength training. And I've heard

[56:25] you talk about this before. You're

[56:26] increasing You're increasing insulin

[56:28] sensitivity. And then that kind of takes

[56:30] a load off of your cells. You're You're

[56:32] decreasing inflammation as well. Your

[56:34] mitochondria are optimally functioning.

[56:36] And when your cells in the dermis are

[56:40] affected by that, uh they're going to

[56:42] work better. They're going to build more

[56:42] collagen. So I

[56:45] I it to me it makes sense. I I would

[56:47] like to see more studies, but but I do

[56:50] really appreciate that.

[56:51] >> I've kind of on my face, I mean I've had

[56:52] a lot of sun damage. And but I I notice

[56:54] like I'm 66 and I look at my skin and

[56:56] the elasticity and my body it it it

[56:59] don't really have a lot of skin aging.

[57:02] Um I notice it's a little bit thinner in

[57:04] some some ways, but you know, I've been

[57:06] eating well my whole life. I've been,

[57:08] you know, exercising my whole life. I've

[57:10] been trying to I mean stress is my

[57:11] thing, but I know I've been taking, you

[57:13] know, basic nutritional supplements. And

[57:15] I

[57:16] and I'm just like kind of amazed at, you

[57:19] know, what what you can do if you

[57:21] actually take care of yourself and you

[57:23] you do the right things. And it's it's

[57:25] something I think it's good to start

[57:27] early. Yeah. But also you can start any

[57:29] age and and slow the process down. And

[57:31] and I'm curious like from your

[57:33] perspective, like what are the highest

[57:34] value interventions for people

[57:36] listening? Like what are the things that

[57:38] you know, for for skin longevity, like

[57:40] what are the highest

[57:42] target

[57:43] >> The highest value

[57:43] >> interventions, yeah.

[57:44] >> So, yeah, I know we we want to talk

[57:46] about how what we can do from the inside

[57:48] out, but I do have to say

[57:50] sun protection is probably the

[57:52] biggest thing you can do.

[57:53] >> The sunblock?

[57:54] >> Yeah, sunscreen, um and like when you're

[57:57] outside

[57:59] you know

[58:00] try to minimize the time you're in

[58:03] you're outside during like those peak UV

[58:05] hours, which is like between 10:00 a.m.

[58:06] and 2:00 p.m.

[58:08] Wearing sun protective clothing, hats,

[58:11] those all play a role. Now,

[58:13] >> Like you need UV blocking clothes?

[58:15] >> You don't need it, but but like but

[58:17] sunscreen's not 100% going to

[58:19] >> But but

[58:20] but can you can you get a like sun

[58:22] damage through your clothes? Like you're

[58:23] in a mouse

[58:24] >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. UV can still

[58:25] penetrate clothes. Not as you know, it's

[58:27] still a form of protection, but but UPF

[58:30] material does a much better job at like

[58:32] blocking out UV rays. So, um just some

[58:35] things to consider and I know that we,

[58:37] you know, also I just want to take into

[58:39] consideration the fact that the sun is

[58:41] really important, too, right? Like for

[58:42] vitamin D absorption, metabolism, as

[58:45] well as like circadian rhythm

[58:47] regulation.

[58:48] >> eyes, yeah.

[58:49] >> Definitely like getting that sun early

[58:50] in the morning, but I think that you can

[58:53] still do all those things. You can go

[58:54] outside, wear sunscreen, don't try to

[58:57] don't try try not to bake outside for

[58:59] prolonged periods of time. That's where

[59:00] we That's where we see a lot of the skin

[59:03] cancer, um

[59:05] and you know, with melanoma, it's for

[59:07] people who have that intermittent

[59:09] prolonged exposure. So, it's

[59:11] interesting.

[59:12] >> When you go to the Bahamas for a holiday

[59:13] and you lay on the beach all day for 7

[59:15] days.

[59:16] >> For men, the most common location for

[59:17] melanoma is the back and for women, it's

[59:19] the legs, but those aren't areas that

[59:21] are seeing the sun every day. But for

[59:23] like those intermittent bursts of sun

[59:24] exposure, like going to the Bahamas and

[59:26] you're just getting like burned on your

[59:28] back, that plays a bigger role with

[59:30] melanoma development. Whereas the

[59:31] non-melanoma skin cancers like basal

[59:33] cell carcinoma or squamous cell

[59:34] carcinoma, those are from just like

[59:35] chronic daily sun exposure that just

[59:38] build up over time. But all of that can

[59:40] contribute to skin cancer um development

[59:43] as well as accelerated aging.

[59:44] >> But not not all melanomas are skin sun

[59:46] exposure related, are they? Aren't are

[59:48] they?

[59:49] >> Well, yeah, you're right, not all cuz we

[59:50] can see melanoma between the toes, we

[59:52] could see anal melanoma.

[59:54] >> That's what I mean, yeah.

[59:54] >> So yeah, so there's other components,

[59:56] too. And what's interesting, too, we

[59:57] have studies to show that low vitamin D

[59:59] can can make melanoma like can put you

[1:00:02] at higher risk for melanoma, which is

[1:00:04] kind of ironic, right? Cuz we say stay

[1:00:06] out of the sun

[1:00:07] to you know, to prevent melanoma.

[1:00:09] >> Yeah.

[1:00:09] >> So it's it's about finding that healthy

[1:00:10] balance. Um

[1:00:12] vitamin D is is important for melanoma

[1:00:14] prevention, too. And you know, that we

[1:00:16] we always talk about supplementation and

[1:00:18] trying to get vitamin D through food,

[1:00:19] but um like I said, you you can still go

[1:00:21] outside, just got to do it responsibly.

[1:00:23] But I'm sorry, to answer your question,

[1:00:25] >> on skin protection? Sun protection.

[1:00:27] >> It is. And it's I mean, we have studies

[1:00:31] to show that it plays the biggest role,

[1:00:32] probably about 80% in when it comes to

[1:00:34] skin aging. There's genetics, but then,

[1:00:37] you know, there's other factors, too. So

[1:00:38] smoking we talked about, thankfully, you

[1:00:40] know, I think people aren't smoking as

[1:00:41] much they people still do smoke, of

[1:00:43] course, but that's huge. Like when they

[1:00:45] look at identical twin studies and like

[1:00:47] they see the twin who's out in the sun

[1:00:49] and smokes, drastic difference.

[1:00:52] >> So that, and then when we talk about

[1:00:54] nutrition, so sugar can accelerate

[1:00:57] aging. I've heard you talk about

[1:00:59] advanced glycation end products or AGEs.

[1:01:02] This is when sugar, you know, when you

[1:01:03] have more sugar, that can bind to your

[1:01:05] collagen fibers, and that can make your

[1:01:08] collagen more brittle and like break

[1:01:09] down more easily and like not remodel as

[1:01:11] well.

[1:01:11] >> Yeah.

[1:01:12] >> So sugar is huge. And then of of course,

[1:01:14] if you have insulin resistance from

[1:01:15] sugar, that's going to create more

[1:01:16] inflammation and further aggravate, you

[1:01:18] know, collagen breakdown. Try to like

[1:01:20] minimize processed foods as well, but

[1:01:22] most of our data is with sugar. And then

[1:01:24] when it comes to what to add, we we

[1:01:26] touched on this briefly, but just like

[1:01:28] just nutrient-dense foods, foods full of

[1:01:30] polyphenols. I just say like just

[1:01:32] colorful foods, you know, like vitamin

[1:01:35] C, your citrus, your

[1:01:37] your bell pepper, like the berries,

[1:01:40] um just things that are full of

[1:01:41] polyphenols is important. And then um

[1:01:45] yeah, and we talked about carotenoids,

[1:01:46] too, whether it it's and also lycopene,

[1:01:49] beta car- beta carotene as well as

[1:01:50] astaxanthin.

[1:01:52] And then sleep is huge. We do have some

[1:01:54] good data to show that poor sleep,

[1:01:57] circadian rhythm disruption, that can

[1:01:58] all accelerate aging.

[1:02:00] Stress is huge, and stress is like

[1:02:02] harder to quantify just cuz, you know,

[1:02:05] like what is stress? Like we all deal

[1:02:06] with so much stress. So um but you know,

[1:02:09] just a matter of

[1:02:11] incorporating stress-decreasing

[1:02:12] modalities into your life. And then

[1:02:14] exercise, we have data to show that that

[1:02:17] helps with skin collagen production.

[1:02:19] Those would And yeah, minimizing

[1:02:21] pollution. I would say those are like

[1:02:23] the the biggest levers um with sun

[1:02:25] protection being the biggest one. And

[1:02:26] then we also have a ton of evidence

[1:02:29] when it when if you just put it in a

[1:02:30] vacuum, like if it's just if you're just

[1:02:32] focusing on skin, topical retinoids, we

[1:02:35] have decades of studies to show the

[1:02:38] impact of topical retinoids for skin

[1:02:39] health.

[1:02:40] >> It's got vitamin A derivative.

[1:02:41] >> Vitamin A derivative, yeah. So the the

[1:02:42] most popular example is retinol, which

[1:02:45] you can get over the counter, and then

[1:02:46] there's the prescription retinoid, which

[1:02:47] is tretinoin, the brand name is Retin-A.

[1:02:50] Those are the most common forms. There's

[1:02:52] retinol, retinaldehyde, tazarotene,

[1:02:54] adapalene. There's a lot. But anyways,

[1:02:55] there's a lot of studies to show that

[1:02:57] that really helps with collagen

[1:02:58] remodeling. And then topical

[1:02:59] antioxidants, vitamin C being the most

[1:03:01] studied example, shows. So after

[1:03:03] sunscreen, we like retinoids and vitamin

[1:03:05] C.

[1:03:05] >> So put vitamin C and ret- and retinoids

[1:03:08] on your skin.

[1:03:09] >> Correct. Yeah, yeah, vitamin C in the

[1:03:11] morning cuz that works alongside

[1:03:12] sunscreen to help with like the

[1:03:15] oxidative stress from the sun as well as

[1:03:17] pollution. And then retinoids at night

[1:03:19] to really contribute to that repair

[1:03:21] process when you're sleeping.

[1:03:22] >> need I need to up my game here cuz I

[1:03:24] I've been focusing on, you know, my

[1:03:26] exercise and diet. And skin care I'm

[1:03:28] like, "Ah, you know, I'm a guy. I don't

[1:03:30] really get care." [laughter]

[1:03:31] >> I mean, if you want to like for overall

[1:03:33] longevity, you got to do all the the

[1:03:34] exercise and diet. Like that's going to

[1:03:35] be better for your overall.

[1:03:37] >> curious about like, you know, I I you

[1:03:38] know,

[1:03:40] I I don't want my skin to age faster

[1:03:42] than it needs to and these seems like

[1:03:44] simple things

[1:03:44] >> These simple

[1:03:45] >> vitamin C and retinoids. And you can do

[1:03:46] the retinol over the counter.

[1:03:48] >> retinol over the counter?

[1:03:49] >> Is that strong enough or

[1:03:50] >> Yeah, it for a lot of people it is. And

[1:03:52] the thing is it's just slower acting.

[1:03:55] Tretinoin is faster acting. You have You

[1:03:57] retinol has to get converted It has to

[1:03:58] go through a couple stages before it

[1:03:59] gets converted to tretinoin. So,

[1:04:02] [snorts] tretinoin works faster. It has

[1:04:04] a higher irritation potential. So,

[1:04:05] people who have sensitive skin or just

[1:04:06] starting out, we do recommend something

[1:04:08] like a retinol.

[1:04:09] Yeah, and then and I would say we have

[1:04:11] the most evidence behind that. I know

[1:04:12] Timeline has their topical like you

[1:04:15] could do topical urolithin A.

[1:04:16] >> Yeah.

[1:04:17] >> Which we do have some studies to show

[1:04:19] that that can help with wrinkle

[1:04:21] reduction as well as increasing

[1:04:22] hydration and barrier repair in the

[1:04:24] skin.

[1:04:26] Um and so, yeah, something else to think

[1:04:28] about, too. There's some supportive

[1:04:29] ingredients in those products like

[1:04:31] there's topical niacinamide. We do have

[1:04:32] some nice data with topical niacinamide

[1:04:34] for barrier repair and wrinkles, too. As

[1:04:37] well as, you know, things like

[1:04:40] hyaluronic acid, ceramides. These are

[1:04:41] like nice hydrating ingredients.

[1:04:43] >> Great. And is it Is it Is it a good

[1:04:45] list? It's a good list of how [laughter]

[1:04:46] to keep your skin healthy. Now, people

[1:04:48] are talking about I just kind of briefly

[1:04:50] want to kind of dive into this, but

[1:04:51] people are talking about a lot of these

[1:04:52] sort of newer therapies where there's

[1:04:54] exosomes, peptides, growth factors, NAD

[1:04:58] products, red light therapy. Can you

[1:05:00] kind of Is it hype? Is it science? Like

[1:05:03] what what's the 80/20 on this stuff?

[1:05:05] >> Yeah, I know. People talk about those a

[1:05:06] lot. I would say don't do that unless

[1:05:09] you're already doing sunscreen,

[1:05:11] retinoids, vitamin C. But yes, screw up

[1:05:14] >> And lifestyle.

[1:05:14] >> And all the lifestyle things that we

[1:05:16] talked about. But yeah, let's I guess

[1:05:18] we'll talk about peptides cuz so many

[1:05:19] people that word is just so popular,

[1:05:21] mainly because of the injectable

[1:05:22] peptides. But

[1:05:25] because the injectable peptides have

[1:05:26] become so popular, topical peptides has

[1:05:28] just gaining so much more buzz, but

[1:05:30] they've been around for decades, too.

[1:05:32] And there are a bunch of different types

[1:05:33] of topical peptides.

[1:05:35] Some are better than others, but in

[1:05:37] general, I am definitely a fan. I think

[1:05:39] it's so easy to incorporate into your

[1:05:41] routine. There's a lot of moisturizers

[1:05:42] that incorporate it, a lot of serums

[1:05:44] that already have it. There's even some

[1:05:45] in some sunscreens. But basically, they

[1:05:47] send signals to your cells to build more

[1:05:49] collagen, or they send signals to your

[1:05:50] cells to increase hydration. So,

[1:05:53] definitely all about peptides.

[1:05:55] >> or like injected? Cuz like GHK-Cu is a

[1:05:57] thing a lot of women are using for their

[1:05:59] skin.

[1:06:00] Is that is that like legit or

[1:06:01] >> I'm sure it it helps, but as of now, we

[1:06:05] don't have the evidence or like the

[1:06:06] safety measures in place to fully

[1:06:08] recommend it. Like Yeah, so I'll say

[1:06:11] that. But we do have topical GHK-Cu, the

[1:06:13] topical copper peptides, which we

[1:06:15] definitely have good evidence for. I

[1:06:17] mean, not as good as retinoids for sure,

[1:06:19] but that helps with collagen recycling

[1:06:20] and rebuilding. So, incorporating copper

[1:06:23] peptides is wonderful into your routine,

[1:06:26] as well as some other like

[1:06:28] hydrating peptides and collagen building

[1:06:29] peptides. And there's also like

[1:06:31] neuromodulating peptides. So, some

[1:06:33] people like to call it like Botox in a

[1:06:35] bottle cuz you know, Botox essentially

[1:06:37] like paralyzes your muscles so you're

[1:06:38] not creating those deeper contractions.

[1:06:41] Super mild form of that with these

[1:06:43] neuropeptides for people who are like

[1:06:46] Botox averse. It doesn't compare to

[1:06:47] Botox, but anyways. So, that's peptides.

[1:06:50] It does Depending on the peptide, you

[1:06:51] could do a lot of different functions in

[1:06:52] the skin. And there's growth factors you

[1:06:54] mentioned. Growth factors are also

[1:06:56] signaling molecules that I think we do

[1:06:58] have some pretty decent evidence for.

[1:07:00] Growth factors are pretty large

[1:07:01] molecules. So,

[1:07:02] so just because you're putting growth

[1:07:04] factors on your skin does not

[1:07:05] necessarily mean I mean, penetrating the

[1:07:06] skin and doing its thing. So, I would

[1:07:08] say you have to make sure you get the

[1:07:09] right growth factors. Not all of them

[1:07:11] are equal. Um but we I do like them. And

[1:07:13] then there's PDRN, which has gained a

[1:07:15] lot of buzz because of the whole K

[1:07:16] beauty Korean beauty kind of

[1:07:19] >> PDRN?

[1:07:19] >> So, PDRN stands for

[1:07:20] polydeoxyribonucleotide

[1:07:23] and it's derived from salmon sperm.

[1:07:25] >> Okay.

[1:07:26] >> [snorts]

[1:07:26] >> And most of the data is with PDRN

[1:07:28] injections into the skin. We we know

[1:07:31] that it helps with collagen remodeling

[1:07:33] when it when it gets into the dermal

[1:07:34] layer. It helps with wound healing.

[1:07:36] Topical PDRN, we have some evidence for

[1:07:39] its efficacy, but doesn't compare as

[1:07:41] much to the injectables. But I I I like

[1:07:43] it. I think it's a wonderful ingredient

[1:07:45] to have in your moisturizer. So, and

[1:07:47] we're seeing more of that.

[1:07:48] >> sperm. Let's go.

[1:07:49] >> Salmon sperm. Salmon sperm facials is

[1:07:51] what we're calling it.

[1:07:52] >> I love that.

[1:07:52] >> What about things like exosomes and stem

[1:07:54] cells? Like people are injecting those

[1:07:55] in their face topically.

[1:07:56] >> Once again, it's one of those areas

[1:07:58] where it's a little bit controversial

[1:08:00] because we do still need more safety

[1:08:02] data. I think it's still kind of the

[1:08:03] wild wild west with that. There are a

[1:08:05] lot of products out there that have

[1:08:07] topical exosomes in them.

[1:08:09] And they are lovely and they seem to

[1:08:11] work, but whether or not the exosomes

[1:08:13] are doing anything or what exactly

[1:08:14] they're doing, it's hard to say because

[1:08:16] it's so hard to stabilize exosomes at

[1:08:18] room temperature. Like you they need to

[1:08:20] be like frozen um at a negative

[1:08:23] temperature.

[1:08:23] >> So, I wonder about these creams or

[1:08:25] >> Yeah, and and also it's like what

[1:08:26] exosomes are the best? Like umbilical

[1:08:28] cord exosomes or like mesenchymal

[1:08:31] exosomes from bone marrow or like fat

[1:08:34] fat cells? Yeah, there's different kinds

[1:08:36] um and that kind of goes along with stem

[1:08:38] cells, too. You know, which ones are the

[1:08:40] best? So, I think we still have more to

[1:08:42] come with that, but

[1:08:44] I think it's promising.

[1:08:45] >> I I I know you've been a dermatologist

[1:08:47] for a long time.

[1:08:48] I can't tell how old you are. I want to

[1:08:50] know your skin routine looks like.

[1:08:52] >> Okay.

[1:08:53] Wait. Wait. Should Should I have you

[1:08:54] guess how old I am?

[1:08:55] >> I kind of would say like maybe late 30s.

[1:08:59] >> Mhm. Yeah, I'm 43.

[1:09:01] >> Yeah.

[1:09:01] >> So, that I'll I'll take that. Thank you.

[1:09:03] But, [clears throat] yeah. So, you know,

[1:09:04] I mentioned the topical skin care

[1:09:05] regimen. I definitely for a while have

[1:09:08] been incorporating sunscreen. I didn't

[1:09:11] for most of my 20s, and it wasn't until

[1:09:13] I started derm residency where I was

[1:09:15] like, oh, okay. I guess I should do

[1:09:17] this.

[1:09:18] Um so, I do sunscreen. I do some type of

[1:09:20] retinoid at night. By the way, you can't

[1:09:22] use a retinoid when you're pregnant. And

[1:09:23] then, um I do vitamin C in the morning.

[1:09:26] But, I do I use I use serums and and

[1:09:29] moisturizers that incorporate peptides

[1:09:31] and or growth factors. I do use a

[1:09:34] product with PDRN and copper peptides. I

[1:09:37] use a serum that has a neuromodulating

[1:09:39] peptide to help soften my lines.

[1:09:42] >> Do these things stack? You just put one

[1:09:43] on after the other?

[1:09:44] >> So, okay. You So, it's so funny because

[1:09:47] I

[1:09:48] I hate overwhelming people because

[1:09:51] there's so much noise out there in the

[1:09:52] skin care world. So, what I tell people

[1:09:54] is really the base the foundational skin

[1:09:58] care regimen is a cleanser. Cuz like

[1:10:00] washing

[1:10:00] >> face is important, too. It's kind of

[1:10:02] under rated.

[1:10:02] >> build up of pollution like all that

[1:10:04] stuff during the day like that

[1:10:06] accelerates skin aging. Those are Those

[1:10:07] are creates oxidative stress on your

[1:10:09] skin. So, washing your face is so

[1:10:10] important. [laughter] And then,

[1:10:12] moisturizing because once again, because

[1:10:14] of the elements, our skin barrier is

[1:10:16] disrupted. Our our keratinocytes are

[1:10:18] working hard to repair the barrier. And

[1:10:20] like if there's stress on our skin, um

[1:10:22] it needs help. So, moisturizer is

[1:10:23] important and then sunscreen. So, those

[1:10:24] are the three

[1:10:26] minimal things to do. And then after

[1:10:28] that, a retinoid and vitamin C. And then

[1:10:30] if that's well established, then you can

[1:10:33] incorporate another serum that might

[1:10:34] have like peptides or growth factors.

[1:10:36] And then like just find a good

[1:10:37] moisturizer that has all the fun things

[1:10:39] that has growth factors and peptides,

[1:10:40] too.

[1:10:41] >> Yeah, that's good. I mean, just kind of

[1:10:43] a a brief aside cuz I think this is an

[1:10:44] issue for for

[1:10:46] for me. I think about this, which is

[1:10:48] what's in the skin care products besides

[1:10:50] the active ingredients, and are those

[1:10:52] harmful? And I had a I had a patient

[1:10:54] once who used sunblock all the time.

[1:10:56] >> Mhm. I checked her urine, she had

[1:10:58] extremely high levels of parabens where

[1:11:00] which is a plastic like a petrochemical

[1:11:03] toxin that they use in these compounds.

[1:11:06] So, you're fixing one thing and hurting

[1:11:07] another thing. And how do you How do you

[1:11:09] manage that? And and And what do you

[1:11:11] think of the Skin Deep uh database from

[1:11:13] Environmental Working Group that kind of

[1:11:15] grades skin care products based on the

[1:11:17] levels of toxins in them?

[1:11:18] >> I respect the fact that something like

[1:11:20] this exists out there. I do take it with

[1:11:23] a grain of salt because

[1:11:25] the data that's in the EWG database is

[1:11:28] from studies where there are usually

[1:11:31] like insanely almost impractical doses,

[1:11:35] insanely high amounts of these products

[1:11:36] or ingredients that are used on like

[1:11:38] animal models. And we can see issues in

[1:11:41] animal models, whether it's endocrine

[1:11:42] disrupting issues,

[1:11:44] uh potentially cancer, you know, and and

[1:11:48] it's it's

[1:11:50] hard to extrapolate that to human data

[1:11:52] for a lot of these things, for things

[1:11:54] like parabens and like um even like some

[1:11:56] of these chemical sunscreens, too. And

[1:12:00] and so,

[1:12:02] I think like theoretically it seems

[1:12:03] scary like, "Oh my god, when it's given

[1:12:05] an insanely high doses to animals, like

[1:12:07] we should not do that. We shouldn't use

[1:12:09] it as humans."

[1:12:10] But,

[1:12:11] I wouldn't you know, if people have been

[1:12:12] using a lot of these products, I

[1:12:13] wouldn't freak out like

[1:12:15] just because somebody has a bunch of

[1:12:17] parabens in their urine, the question

[1:12:20] is, "Okay, what But, what exactly like

[1:12:22] what is How is that manifesting in their

[1:12:24] skin?"

[1:12:25] >> my my philosophy and maybe this is right

[1:12:27] or wrong, I don't know, but if you

[1:12:29] wouldn't eat it, don't put it on your

[1:12:30] skin cuz everything you put on your skin

[1:12:31] gets absorbed through your skin.

[1:12:33] >> Okay, so I have something to say to

[1:12:34] that. I have something to [laughter] say

[1:12:35] to that because our skin is all

[1:12:38] honestly, our skin does serve as a great

[1:12:40] barrier. Like it's one of the functions

[1:12:42] of the skin is to protect our our body

[1:12:44] from like the outside elements, from

[1:12:46] pathogens, from irritants, and all those

[1:12:47] things. So, there is an element of

[1:12:49] really good barrier protection on the

[1:12:50] skin. But, the other thing I want to

[1:12:52] add, too is that not necessarily

[1:12:53] everything you eat is good for your

[1:12:55] skin.

[1:12:55] >> This is true.

[1:12:56] >> Like lemon. Like lemon will destroy your

[1:12:58] skin. Yes.

[1:12:59] >> Lemon juice, lemon juice?

[1:13:01] >> Lemon can Yeah, lemon can cause like

[1:13:02] irritation from the acids in the skin. I

[1:13:04] mean, we have stomach acids that can

[1:13:06] that can deal with that.

[1:13:07] >> putting lemon on your skin or eating

[1:13:09] lemon?

[1:13:09] >> So, eating lemon is good.

[1:13:10] >> Oh, eating lemon.

[1:13:11] >> Putting lemon on your skin is not good.

[1:13:13] >> do that. Yeah, yeah.

[1:13:14] >> Yeah, [laughter] so so there's there's

[1:13:15] like

[1:13:16] so but yes.

[1:13:17] >> want to put chili peppers on your face,

[1:13:18] you know.

[1:13:18] >> Right, exactly. Exactly. But no But I I

[1:13:21] I do appreciate you saying that. Like we

[1:13:23] have to be you know,

[1:13:25] if we can eat it like

[1:13:27] then you know, it it's potentially safe

[1:13:29] for our skin. But I I also want people

[1:13:31] to know that our skin is there to

[1:13:32] protect us too. And like a lot of these

[1:13:34] things usually just penetrate to the

[1:13:36] through the epidermis, not really

[1:13:37] getting to our vasculature. Of course,

[1:13:38] there's things that get into our

[1:13:40] vasculature as well. But our skin I

[1:13:41] would give it more credit. It really

[1:13:42] does do a good job at keeping a lot of

[1:13:44] the things out. I'll say that I'll say

[1:13:46] that. But but yes, there are definitely

[1:13:47] things that that can get absorbed that

[1:13:49] aren't

[1:13:50] >> I mean, because I always wonder about it

[1:13:51] cuz I mean, as a doctor, I'm like when

[1:13:53] you someone comes to the emergency room

[1:13:54] with a heart attack, you put

[1:13:55] nitroglycerin paste on their chest when

[1:13:56] someone has a

[1:13:57] >> Yeah, there's topical estrogen.

[1:13:58] >> topical hormones. You've got

[1:14:01] you know, all these topical drugs that

[1:14:03] we deliver through the skin, whether

[1:14:04] it's fentanyl patches or like it's it's

[1:14:07] a known thing.

[1:14:08] >> It is a known thing. Yes.

[1:14:09] >> So, like it's not like they don't get

[1:14:11] through.

[1:14:11] >> No, for sure. And there's certain

[1:14:13] vehicles that deliver these things more

[1:14:15] effectively than others.

[1:14:17] So, so it's it's a matter of like what

[1:14:20] the product is. But yeah, no, for sure.

[1:14:22] Like things definitely can get absorbed

[1:14:23] through the

[1:14:23] >> So, if we have a choice between

[1:14:24] something that doesn't have a lot of bad

[1:14:27] you know, industrial ingredients in it

[1:14:28] versus something that does, would you

[1:14:30] choose the one that doesn't or you don't

[1:14:32] care? Of course, I would want to look at

[1:14:33] the safety data behind it too. But but I

[1:14:36] would try to minimize like anything that

[1:14:38] has this like toxic burden to the skin

[1:14:40] for sure. Yeah. Okay, good. I I

[1:14:43] I think you're right. There's probably

[1:14:44] not enough data like what happens when

[1:14:46] you put all these things on. But like

[1:14:47] just like at a high level like I wonder

[1:14:49] if anybody's done the studies to see if

[1:14:50] you put this stuff on your skin and

[1:14:51] measure the blood levels or urine levels

[1:14:53] of these compounds. Has anybody done

[1:14:55] that work?

[1:14:55] >> Yeah, I mean I think that that some of

[1:14:57] it has been looked at too. Like we have

[1:14:59] we do see higher absorption with

[1:15:01] chemical sunscreens in our bloodstream.

[1:15:03] >> So it's better use mineral sunscreens

[1:15:05] then?

[1:15:05] >> So [laughter]

[1:15:06] yeah, I mean if if that sort of freaks

[1:15:08] you out then yes, I would use mineral

[1:15:10] sunscreen. Um

[1:15:12] the FDA s- kind of put that in the

[1:15:14] category of generally recognized as safe

[1:15:17] whereas the chemical sunscreens is not

[1:15:18] in that category mainly because you do

[1:15:20] have extensive systemic absorption with

[1:15:22] it. Whether or not that does anything is

[1:15:24] is just still up for debate. So

[1:15:26] >> Wait, are you saying that the FDA says

[1:15:28] that that these chemical sunscreens are

[1:15:30] not generally recognized as safe?

[1:15:32] >> That's right.

[1:15:32] >> Wow.

[1:15:33] >> But there's a new one that just came out

[1:15:34] this past year that is that's it's BEMT

[1:15:37] parcel shield is another name for it

[1:15:39] that is it's a chemical sunscreen that

[1:15:40] is lumped with generally recognized as

[1:15:42] safe. But yeah, no, we need some work

[1:15:44] with the chemical sunscreens.

[1:15:45] >> Really?

[1:15:46] >> But but

[1:15:47] I have to tell people they're still

[1:15:49] effective. They're still overall safe.

[1:15:51] We don't have the human data to show

[1:15:52] that it does anything, but it does

[1:15:54] absorb more into your bloodstream.

[1:15:55] >> This is such a great conversation. Are

[1:15:58] you up for a few rapid fire questions?

[1:16:00] >> Okay. So what's the biggest driver of

[1:16:02] premature skin aging?

[1:16:03] >> UV radiation.

[1:16:04] >> Sun, okay.

[1:16:04] >> Yeah, the sun.

[1:16:05] >> Can you take age skin and actually

[1:16:07] improve it or not?

[1:16:08] >> Can Yes, you can. There's hope. There's

[1:16:10] hope.

[1:16:10] >> What matters more for skin health? Is it

[1:16:13] in longevity, skin care, or exercise?

[1:16:15] >> It depends on what your goals are. If

[1:16:16] you want to live longer, I would say

[1:16:17] exercise. If you want your skin to look

[1:16:19] smooth and wrinkle-free, skin care.

[1:16:21] >> How about mitochondria? How important is

[1:16:23] that on a scale of 1 to 10?

[1:16:24] >> Mitochondria Oh,

[1:16:26] at least a nine. There's Cuz there's a

[1:16:28] lot of other factors that also

[1:16:29] contribute to aging, too.

[1:16:32] Um it's not just mitochondria. We we

[1:16:34] need

[1:16:35] >> And and urolithin A, is the data there

[1:16:36] or not?

[1:16:37] >> Urolithin A Yeah, I would say we have

[1:16:38] really good data with urolithin A.

[1:16:40] >> Amazing. Okay. And then what's the most

[1:16:42] overrated anti-aging

[1:16:44] skin care trend?

[1:16:46] >> Okay, so there's like products that are

[1:16:48] trending

[1:16:48] >> trends that people be like, wait.

[1:16:50] >> there's a couple of things. Like a lot

[1:16:51] of people are into like beef tallow, and

[1:16:54] they think that that protects their skin

[1:16:55] from the sun. That's no, it does not.

[1:16:57] It's an okay moisturizer, but it's not

[1:16:59] anything miraculous. We have a lot

[1:17:01] better moisturizers out there.

[1:17:02] >> Beef fat on your skin, [clears throat]

[1:17:03] not a thing.

[1:17:03] >> It's It's Yeah, it's it's fine.

[1:17:05] >> really use coconut oil as like

[1:17:07] >> Coconut oil can be helpful. It is

[1:17:08] comedogenic, so be careful if you're

[1:17:10] acne-prone, but but um beef tallow is

[1:17:12] also comedogenic as well. But people

[1:17:14] think it's like a miracle cure, and it's

[1:17:16] not.

[1:17:17] >> Amazing. Okay. Wow. Well, thank you so

[1:17:20] much um for your insights, your work,

[1:17:23] your your advocacy, cuz there aren't

[1:17:25] enough, I would say, integrated

[1:17:26] functional dermatologists out there.

[1:17:28] >> Yeah.

[1:17:29] >> aren't. And uh I had the privilege of

[1:17:30] learning from some of the OG ones, you

[1:17:33] know, back in the day. And uh and I

[1:17:35] think that, you know, if you're

[1:17:36] listening this, you know, there's really

[1:17:38] two issues. One is healthy skin aging,

[1:17:40] and two is skin conditions.

[1:17:42] And there's a lot to do about both of

[1:17:43] them. And hopefully,

[1:17:45] you know, we can really uh help people

[1:17:47] understand what they can do. Tell us

[1:17:49] where people can learn more about you,

[1:17:51] find you, learn about your work.

[1:17:52] >> I I'm very active on social media. My

[1:17:55] handle is uh doctor.mamina, dr.mamina,

[1:17:58] on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. I

[1:18:00] have a website, doctormamina.com.

[1:18:03] And if you're also interested in

[1:18:04] prescription skin care, I'm a co-founder

[1:18:06] with other derms for a prescription skin

[1:18:08] care service called Dermy Doc.

[1:18:09] >> Amazing. Dermy Doc. All right. Well, so

[1:18:11] good to meet you and have you on the

[1:18:12] podcast, and thanks [music] for your

[1:18:13] work.

[1:18:14] >> Thank you so much for having me.

[1:18:15] >> Hey everybody, it's Dr. Mark Hyman. I'm

[1:18:17] so excited to share that my new book is

[1:18:19] officially available for pre-order

[1:18:20] today. After more than 30 years of

[1:18:23] practicing medicine and caring for tens

[1:18:24] of thousands of patients, I've written

[1:18:26] the book that brings everything together

[1:18:29] that I've learned about helping people

[1:18:30] get healthy and stay healthy as they

[1:18:32] age. It's called The 100: What to Do

[1:18:34] Today to Live 100 Healthy Years. It's a

[1:18:37] whole-body guide to living 100 healthy

[1:18:39] years. It's grounded in new

[1:18:40] understanding of how our bodies work.

[1:18:42] It's the new map of the body. And

[1:18:43] inside, I walk you through the seven

[1:18:46] core systems that drive your health from

[1:18:47] your gut and hormones to how your cells

[1:18:49] make energy and help you understand the

[1:18:51] signals your body's been sending you all

[1:18:53] along. Now, a lot of what's in the book

[1:18:55] I learned the hard way through my own

[1:18:57] body. When I got sick, the medicine that

[1:18:59] I trained in did not have any of the

[1:19:02] answers I needed. So, I had to go

[1:19:04] looking for them myself. And that search

[1:19:06] became my life's work. This book brings

[1:19:08] together decades of my learning from my

[1:19:10] patients, from the scientific research

[1:19:12] and scouring that, from the things I got

[1:19:14] wrong and the things I had to rethink

[1:19:15] along the way. I don't want you to have

[1:19:18] to struggle the way I did to find those

[1:19:19] answers. So much of our health is shaped

[1:19:21] by what happens outside your doctor's

[1:19:23] office. And I want you to feel confident

[1:19:25] knowing how to care for yourself every

[1:19:27] day. I put so much of myself into this

[1:19:28] book and I'm really excited to finally

[1:19:30] share it with you. It's really my life's

[1:19:31] work. It's my capstone of my career. I

[1:19:33] put everything I know. It's finally

[1:19:35] available for order today. Pre-order

[1:19:37] everywhere books are sold. Go get a

[1:19:38] copy. Please support me. And this is my

[1:19:40] life's work. So, I think you're going to

[1:19:42] love it.

MH
ArtistMark Hyman

Mark Hyman, MD, is a family physician and Functional Medicine leader who founded The UltraWellness Center and the Food Fix Campaign, hosts The Dr. Hyman Show, and writes bestsellin…

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Skin-healthFunctional-medicineMitochondriaGut-healthInsulin-resistance

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Topical treatments address surface symptoms but ignore the internal causes—gut dysfunction, mitochondrial damage, insulin resistance, and nutrient deficiencies—that drive most chronic skin diseases. Without fixing root causes, inflammation returns once treatment stops, requiring endless management rather than true healing.
When cells become insulin resistant, the body produces excess insulin, which drives systemic inflammation, impairs wound healing, accelerates aging, and triggers multiple cascades that manifest as acne, rosacea, and skin barrier dysfunction. Lowering insulin through better metabolic health often resolves these conditions.
Yes. Studies show that strength training increases insulin sensitivity, reduces inflammation, and optimizes mitochondrial function in skin cells, resulting in a thicker dermis and more collagen production. This effect rivals many expensive topical anti-aging products.
Functional dermatology investigates vitamin D, lipid profiles, fasting glucose, insulin levels, microbiome health, food sensitivities, and hormone balance. These factors directly influence skin health but are rarely assessed in conventional dermatological practice.
Yes, but only as supportive tools. Retinoids have strong evidence for increasing cell turnover and collagen production, and vitamin C offers antioxidant benefits when properly formulated. However, they cannot overcome poor gut health or metabolic dysfunction—internal factors must be addressed first.
The gut lining's integrity directly influences systemic inflammation and immune regulation. A compromised gut barrier triggers cascades of inflammation that manifest in chronic skin conditions. Healing the gut through nutrition and dysbiosis correction often resolves skin problems that topical treatments couldn't touch.
Biologics and steroids suppress immune activation without addressing why the immune system is activated in the first place. They make patients more comfortable short-term but don't heal root causes, so inflammation returns when treatment stops and carry significant risks including increased infection and cancer.

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