Transcript
[0:00] You said that muscle building is one of
[0:02] the best ways that's a non-skin care
[0:04] intervention for healthier skin in
[0:05] midlife. [music] Can you kind of unpack
[0:06] that?
[0:07] >> There is a study that was really
[0:08] interesting about women in their kind of
[0:09] midlife age range. They compared them
[0:11] doing aerobic exercise to strength
[0:15] training. The participants who were
[0:17] strength training actually had a thicker
[0:19] dermis. You know, so dermis is where our
[0:22] collagen sits. When you're strength
[0:23] [music] training, you're increasing
[0:24] insulin sensitivity and then that kind
[0:26] of takes a load off of your cells.
[0:28] You're you're decreasing inflammation as
[0:30] well. Your mitochondria are optimally
[0:32] functioning when your cells [music] in
[0:34] the dermis are affected by that, they're
[0:36] going to work better, they're going to
[0:37] build more collagen.
[0:38] >> Hey everybody, I got some really
[0:40] exciting news. The Doctor Hyman Show is
[0:42] a finalist for two Signal Awards this
[0:44] year. Now, our first nomination is for
[0:46] the best live podcast for my
[0:48] conversation with Halle Berry at
[0:49] Eudemonic Brain. We had an incredible
[0:51] discussion about menopause, women's
[0:53] health, and why we completely need to
[0:56] rethink how to support women through
[0:57] this stage of life. We're also nominated
[0:59] for my phone leadership for my
[1:01] conversation with Doctors Michael Akon
[1:03] and Ray Dorsey about the alarming rise
[1:05] of Parkinson's disease and what the
[1:07] latest science is teaching us about the
[1:09] connection between the gut and the
[1:10] brain, environmental toxins, and a whole
[1:12] bunch more. And I'm really proud of both
[1:13] these conversations and now we need your
[1:15] help. Please help me.
[1:17] Voting is open through October 15th.
[1:19] Just head to vote.signalaward.com
[1:22] and vote for The Doctor Hyman Show. And
[1:24] as always, thank you for listening, for
[1:26] watching, for sharing these
[1:27] conversations, and being part of this
[1:29] community. We couldn't do it without
[1:31] you.
[1:32] Dr. Mia, welcome to the podcast.
[1:33] >> Thank you so much for having me.
[1:35] >> You know, I've never had a dermatologist
[1:36] on. I'm very excited about this because
[1:38] [music] when I started practicing
[1:39] functional medicine 30 years ago and
[1:42] treating people's health issues,
[1:43] >> [music]
[1:44] >> I would notice that their skin would get
[1:45] better
[1:46] by improving their nutrition, by
[1:48] optimizing their gut flora, by helping
[1:50] them get rid of toxins, by
[1:53] dealing with, you know, food
[1:55] sensitivities. And it was quite it was
[1:57] quite amazing to me how things that were
[1:59] really chronic, persistent conditions
[2:02] like dermatitis issues like eczema,
[2:04] psoriasis, acne, rosacea, like a lot of
[2:07] the bread and butter stuff just
[2:10] people have. It doesn't go away. And it
[2:13] has to be managed It has to be managed.
[2:15] It has to be
[2:16] treated with medication. It's
[2:19] And you know, traditional
[2:20] dermatologists, at least the way I
[2:21] learned it cuz I'm a family doctor, I
[2:22] learned dermatology
[2:23] >> Yeah.
[2:25] >> [laughter]
[2:25] >> the basic stuff was to put lotions,
[2:27] potions, gels, salves, creams, whatever
[2:29] you could put on the top
[2:32] to actually fix the problem, whether it
[2:34] was steroids or antibiotics or
[2:36] antifungals or whatever the thing was.
[2:39] If it's wet, dry. If it's dry, wet.
[2:41] Whatever like the
[2:42] >> Right, right. Yeah, that that's how with
[2:43] how they would teach that.
[2:44] >> And I came to quickly understand when I
[2:46] started practicing functional medicine
[2:47] was that the skin health is really
[2:49] coming from the inside out. Yes, if you
[2:52] have sun damage. Yes, if you, you know,
[2:54] do things that harm your skin from the
[2:56] outside, it can be an issue.
[2:58] But a lot of skin health and the
[3:00] treatment of chronic skin conditions,
[3:01] which a lot of people suffer from,
[3:04] is from the inside out. And it's dealing
[3:07] with the foundational things of
[3:07] nutrition, of gut health, of
[3:11] optimizing nutrient status. And so I
[3:14] think that I I kind [clears throat] of
[3:15] want to get into, you know, how you came
[3:17] into this field from a traditional
[3:19] dermatologist and sort of had this
[3:21] awakening that And and I know you kind
[3:23] of were sort of a little bit open to
[3:24] this cuz your mom is Japanese and you
[3:26] learn about Eastern medicine how how you
[3:29] really kind of flipped the switch and
[3:31] said, "Oh, maybe there's a different way
[3:33] to approach these chronic dermatological
[3:35] conditions that cause so much
[3:36] suffering." So, tell us how you kind of
[3:38] started to kind of understand that there
[3:39] was a different way of thinking about
[3:41] it. And let's sort of unpack some of the
[3:43] basic foundations of integrative
[3:45] functional dermatology.
[3:46] >> So, like you mentioned, my mother's
[3:47] Japanese. So, just from a young age I've
[3:50] been exposed to alternative approaches
[3:51] to healing instead of just, you know,
[3:54] suppressing symptoms with, you know, an
[3:57] over-the-counter medicine or
[3:57] prescription medicine. My mom would
[4:00] incorporate modalities to really get to
[4:03] the root cause, or what I would think.
[4:05] And so, it just kept me, you know, you
[4:08] know, gave me an open mind. And when it
[4:11] came to applying to medical school, I
[4:13] was like, do I want to go to
[4:14] naturopathic medical school versus like
[4:16] an allopathic conventional medical
[4:17] school? And I was so torn.
[4:19] And I decided, you know,
[4:21] if I went the conventional route and got
[4:24] my MD, I could always practice,
[4:26] you know, holistic forms of medicine,
[4:27] functional medicine,
[4:29] uh with that background. And
[4:31] >> That's kind of the same way I felt like
[4:32] I was going to study Chinese medicine. I
[4:33] was like, yeah, you know, like I think
[4:35] if I had an MD behind my name, I can do
[4:36] more stuff and be more like
[4:38] think
[4:39] >> And oh my gosh, and as you know, like
[4:40] when you're in med school and residency,
[4:41] I just feel like I just got sucked into
[4:43] this vacuum. I was barely just trying to
[4:45] survive, like just studying all the
[4:48] time, not sleeping.
[4:49] >> brainwashing, yeah.
[4:50] >> It really is. It's It's so ironic, like
[4:52] just the health
[4:54] like stress that we put our bodies
[4:55] through with medical residency and
[4:58] medical school. And so, I definitely
[5:00] experienced a lot of health issues just
[5:02] going through all that. And
[5:04] and really there's
[5:05] derm residency, even though derm is kind
[5:08] of a fun, more, you know, people think
[5:10] it's like a a fun field. It's not as
[5:12] Some people don't take it as seriously
[5:14] as like, you know, thoracic surgery. But
[5:17] but it's such a hard residency. There's
[5:19] such a learning curve cuz there's so
[5:20] much to learn in derm residency that you
[5:22] don't learn in medical school. And
[5:24] so, I just kind of got sucked into that
[5:26] and went into conventional private
[5:27] practice. But I was always so interested
[5:29] in taking a holistic approach. Like I
[5:30] was president of the integrated medicine
[5:32] interest group during med school. And as
[5:34] I was practicing, uh you know, as you
[5:36] mentioned, we we put a lot of we focus a
[5:39] lot on skin, like topical treatments. We
[5:41] do a lot of systemic treatments as well,
[5:42] but so much of it revolves around
[5:44] suppressing inflammation.
[5:46] >> You can use oral steroids, but that's
[5:48] that's another
[5:49] That's a pretty serious
[5:51] >> It's It's
[5:51] >> Like using a nuclear bomb for like a
[5:53] >> Yeah, it's like using a nuclear bomb.
[5:55] And long-term use, there's so many
[5:57] issues that come with that. But also
[5:59] even like biologics, too, which are
[6:01] there are They're safer than steroids,
[6:04] but there are also a lot of
[6:05] ramifications with biologic use.
[6:07] >> And biologics, just I'll interrupt you
[6:09] for a second, is basically this class of
[6:10] drugs that is suppresses your immune
[6:12] system.
[6:13] >> Yes.
[6:14] >> And and, you know, generally works well
[6:16] and doesn't have as much side effects,
[6:17] but does increase risk of cancer and
[6:20] also lowers your immune system function,
[6:22] so you're more likely to get serious
[6:23] infections.
[6:24] >> Yeah, more so with the anti-TNF class,
[6:27] the newer classes.
[6:28] They're becoming more specific, so they
[6:30] are more safe, but still, yeah, it's the
[6:32] premise of they're all suppressing your
[6:33] immune system. And it's just like let's
[6:36] just shut up the immune system so that
[6:39] you can live in peace, but what I've
[6:40] noticed just practicing more and more is
[6:43] that it's not really getting to the root
[6:44] cause. Like I'm so grateful for
[6:46] treatments because it makes people more
[6:48] comfortable, it makes them survive their
[6:50] day-to-day, but it's not really getting
[6:53] to the root cause.
[6:54] >> So how do you then think about
[6:55] approaching dermatology now from this
[6:57] new set of lenses and perspectives that
[6:59] you have about how skin health is really
[7:02] from the inside out and is a systemic
[7:04] problem, not just a skin problem? Your
[7:06] skin is a reflection of what's happening
[7:07] in the rest of your body. So how how how
[7:09] do you think about that? How do you
[7:10] approach these patients who come in with
[7:12] these really
[7:14] intractable conditions that, you know,
[7:15] require basically a sledgehammer. We use
[7:17] sledgehammers in medicine.
[7:19] >> I know we do.
[7:19] >> And it's just No, there's a different
[7:21] approach.
[7:22] >> So when somebody comes in, obviously
[7:23] take a thorough medical history, look at
[7:26] their background.
[7:27] But I also go beyond that and look at
[7:29] what they're eating, how they're
[7:31] sleeping, what the stress is like in
[7:33] their life. What hormonal changes they
[7:35] could be going through? Are they going
[7:37] through menopause? What are their
[7:38] environmental exposures? Are Are
[7:40] traveling a lot? What kind of
[7:42] environment are they living in?
[7:43] And
[7:45] you know, what are their what's their
[7:46] exercise habit like? So, really taking
[7:48] all of that into consideration and
[7:51] taking that into account before I come
[7:53] up with a treatment plan for them.
[7:54] >> So, what tend to be the root causes that
[7:56] you're you're seeing like clinically in
[7:57] practice? Like what are the things that
[7:58] are coming up over and over again that
[8:00] you're like, "Oh, I didn't learn this in
[8:01] residency or medical school, but this is
[8:03] actually something that is real
[8:05] that when I change this thing, it
[8:06] works."
[8:07] >> I would say gut
[8:09] and hormones
[8:12] are like the two biggest things that we
[8:14] see when it comes to a lot of the the
[8:17] major skin issues, whether it's acne,
[8:19] eczema, psoriasis, rosacea, hair loss
[8:22] even, too. You know, we're not really
[8:24] addressing those in conventional
[8:26] dermatology. We have a lot of wonderful
[8:28] treatments, like I said, to suppress the
[8:30] symptoms. We have a lot of things that
[8:31] can help acne, whether it's
[8:33] spironolactone, isotretinoin, but
[8:36] you know, it's not really healing the
[8:37] underlying triggers.
[8:39] >> Yeah, it's true. Like I I find that, you
[8:40] know, you start with nutrition and the
[8:42] gut and then you kind of work on
[8:44] optimizing that and then you kind of see
[8:47] what's left over.
[8:48] And then, you know, there are other
[8:49] things that might be playing a role.
[8:50] Like you said, hormones, we'll get into
[8:52] that. Mitochondria, we'll get into that.
[8:54] Exercise, we'll get into that.
[8:56] >> Yeah. Insulin sensitivity.
[8:57] >> Insulin resistance, which is a big thing
[9:00] for skin health, which people don't
[9:01] realize, which is affecting to some
[9:03] degree 90 plus percent of Americans.
[9:06] Um you know, at Function Health with our
[9:08] diagnostics, we we measure insulin on
[9:10] everybody, which is not something most
[9:12] doctors check.
[9:13] And, you know, we're looking at the
[9:14] reference range from Quest, which is 18
[9:17] or above is abnormal.
[9:19] I mean, really optimal is probably less
[9:22] than five. I mean, I'm three, two to
[9:24] three. You know, as someone who's 66,
[9:26] who's healthy, who's fit, who's like
[9:28] metabolically okay, cuz I know what to
[9:29] do. That's kind of optimal.
[9:32] >> Yeah.
[9:32] >> But, we're seeing even at the reference
[9:34] range of Quest, 65% of members of our
[9:39] over half a million members
[9:41] have high insulin levels.
[9:43] >> Oh god.
[9:44] >> and have inflammation.
[9:46] You know, you're probably familiar with
[9:47] Nicholas Perricone and he wrote the
[9:50] wrinkle cure way back when and it was
[9:51] all about like inflammation and
[9:53] oxidative stress and and so the question
[9:55] is like what is causing this
[9:57] inflammation? What is causing all this
[9:59] damage? And it is is things that we can
[10:01] actually identify. So diagnostically,
[10:03] how do you think about approaching these
[10:05] these patients with these chronic
[10:06] illnesses? What do you what do you
[10:07] testing? What are you looking for? How
[10:09] do you sort of do a essential
[10:11] differential diagnosis but based on a
[10:13] a new set of of lenses that you're
[10:15] looking through?
[10:16] >> There's people who come in wanting to,
[10:18] you know, help their skin with wrinkles
[10:21] and like kind of coming in for
[10:23] anti-aging treatments. So that's a
[10:24] separate kind of diagnostic approach.
[10:26] But for people coming with chronic
[10:27] inflammatory issues, whether it's acne,
[10:29] psoriasis, eczema,
[10:30] I do think that it's really important to
[10:33] look at their gut health and I will
[10:35] often collaborate with other functional
[10:37] medicine doctors or naturopathic doctors
[10:38] to do gut testing and really do a
[10:40] thorough examination. Is there yeast
[10:42] overgrowth? Is there an imbalance
[10:44] somewhere there? We do know that there
[10:46] are higher rates of SIBO in rosacea.
[10:49] Like that's been established. Higher
[10:50] rates of Helicobacter pylori.
[10:52] >> Mhm.
[10:52] >> And you know, we see that in even acne
[10:55] as well. Really looking at that and
[10:56] targeting those things if
[10:59] if they show signs
[11:01] >> Even fungal overgrowth for rosacea.
[11:03] >> Oh, fungal overgrowth, definitely. When
[11:04] people come in with acne, another thing
[11:06] I really like to look at is their
[11:07] insulin sensitivity or the resistance,
[11:09] testing their insulin level and even
[11:10] looking at the ratio of insulin to their
[11:12] fasting glucose. I think gives even a
[11:14] more accurate
[11:15] picture of what's going on with their
[11:16] insulin sensitivity. And yeah,
[11:20] in terms of testing, those are the main
[11:22] things and like I said, if we need to do
[11:23] more extensive testing like Dutch test
[11:25] to look at their hormones more closely,
[11:27] I will include, you know, another, you
[11:30] know, collaborative physician who who
[11:32] has more experience in that, but I do
[11:35] think that patients get frustrated and
[11:37] they're like, I just want to know why I
[11:38] have this. They're they're grateful for
[11:40] medications, but they're like, if I stop
[11:42] it, then it comes right back. So, it's
[11:43] it's it's not really solving, you know,
[11:46] the deep issue.
[11:47] >> Now, I also find that checking gluten
[11:48] sensitivity and antibodies to gluten is
[11:51] a big one, and especially for certain
[11:53] conditions, whether it's psoriasis or
[11:56] or there's a lot of data that gluten can
[11:57] be a player.
[11:58] >> Yes, yes. There Yeah, even like the in
[12:01] non-celiac patients, gluten can be a
[12:03] player in certain forms of psoriasis cuz
[12:05] some people with psoriasis can test
[12:06] positive for those antibodies, and for
[12:08] those patients, I do tell them to stay
[12:09] away from gluten. And then like some
[12:11] random other like dermatitis um flares,
[12:15] we can see gluten sensitivity.
[12:16] >> And acne is another one. Like it's a big
[12:18] one, you know. Um you mentioned insulin
[12:20] resistance, but again, like you know,
[12:22] when you have
[12:23] high insulin, in women particularly, it
[12:25] can cause high testosterone.
[12:28] Uh and then sugar. So, sugar
[12:31] is a big factor in causing acne. People
[12:33] don't realize that.
[12:33] >> Oh, huge. Yeah, sugar and dairy.
[12:36] >> Aging shows up in two ways. There's the
[12:38] aging you can see, the lines around your
[12:39] eyes, change in your skin, the face
[12:41] looking back at you in the mirror. And
[12:43] then there's the aging you can feel, the
[12:45] workout that takes a little more out of
[12:46] you, the hike that feels harder than it
[12:48] used to, less energy, slower recovery.
[12:50] That creeping sense that maybe this is
[12:52] what getting older means, or you just
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[14:43] And dairy, dairy's another one. And I
[14:46] personally have that. If I have dairy,
[14:48] like especially if it's like a American
[14:52] you know, regular dairy, but now it's
[14:54] not A1 or A2 or regenerative or whatever
[14:57] like or sheep or goat, I get pimples.
[15:01] I'm like it's like clockwork. Yeah. If I
[15:03] eat much dairy, I get pimples. And so,
[15:06] it you know, and I see this with my
[15:07] patients. So, dairy and sugar
[15:09] and you think about the acne industry, I
[15:11] mean it's
[15:12] >> Yeah, well, it's huge. And like if you
[15:13] talk to, you know, like my partner
[15:15] who've been practicing for 40 years, she
[15:16] said we did not see this much adult acne
[15:19] that I mean of teenage acne has been
[15:21] around for a while.
[15:23] Um but adult acne has been rising in the
[15:25] last few decades. And it's like it just
[15:28] makes you wonder what else is going on
[15:29] in our environment. Yes, I think that
[15:31] agricultural practices have changed like
[15:32] what we're feeding
[15:34] cows and like
[15:35] that could be affecting milk, the meat,
[15:37] all like the other endocrine disrupting
[15:39] chemicals that could be out there. I
[15:40] mean
[15:41] >> destroys the microbiome.
[15:43] >> I mean we're seeing more acne alongside
[15:46] like more rates of hypothyroidism, more
[15:48] hair loss, more infertility. Like
[15:49] there's something going on in our
[15:51] environment that's that's affecting our
[15:54] whole endocrine system, I think. Cuz
[15:55] these are all hormone based, a lot of
[15:57] it.
[15:57] >> Yeah.
[15:58] >> Um and like I also have my other
[16:00] theories. Like I do think that we live
[16:02] in a more stressed environment, too.
[16:03] Stress is so huge when it comes to acne
[16:05] as well as, you know, all these other
[16:07] inflammatory skin issues that we see.
[16:09] Stress can, you know, increase cortisol.
[16:11] So cortisol just sends a whole cascade
[16:14] of signals including just like increase
[16:16] inflammation in our skin, increase It
[16:18] makes our sebum more sticky. So like we
[16:20] get more acne from that, too.
[16:22] And yeah, so so we see that and and and
[16:26] I'm
[16:26] telling people to stop drinking coffee,
[16:28] but sometimes I do think that it can
[16:31] if people drink too much caffeine or
[16:32] consume too much that can artificially
[16:34] increase like their stress response in
[16:35] their bodies, too. Um so that's
[16:37] something I also talk about with
[16:38] patients. I'm like, "What's your sleep
[16:40] like? How much caffeine are you
[16:42] consuming?" I I sort of go in there as
[16:44] well.
[16:44] >> Yeah. I don't know if you kind of adhere
[16:46] to this theory, but a lot of these skin
[16:47] conditions are inflammatory.
[16:48] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, inflammation I would say
[16:50] is the base for everything.
[16:51] >> Yeah, and so typically in medicine we
[16:53] use anti-inflammatories or
[16:55] immunosuppressants or steroids basically
[16:58] to calm the inflammation down. But
[16:59] rather than going to the root of like
[17:01] why is there inflammation? So could you
[17:03] could you share a little bit about like
[17:04] your experience with some of these
[17:05] things and and what you've seen?
[17:07] >> When it comes to, you know,
[17:10] uh I'm just trying to think of like
[17:11] patient examples. Um
[17:14] I had a patient with
[17:17] terrible acne and she had all these side
[17:21] effects to the conventional treatments,
[17:23] spironolactone and isotretinoin. She
[17:24] would respond to them, but she kept on
[17:26] getting
[17:29] Like she like so spironolactone can
[17:32] affect your
[17:33] periods and she was not having her
[17:35] periods which
[17:37] which wasn't a problem, but it she was
[17:38] also just getting a little bit too
[17:39] dehydrated from it. Like it was causing
[17:41] her heart to race.
[17:41] >> That's a It's kind of a diuretic that
[17:43] also blocks testosterone, so it can help
[17:45] with acne, yeah.
[17:46] >> Yeah. And then with isotretinoin she was
[17:48] getting joint pain. So, we were working
[17:50] with a functional medicine doctor and
[17:53] she did some gut microbiome testing on
[17:55] her and saw that she did have yeast
[17:59] overgrowth and and fixed her fixed her
[18:01] yeast, but she also did some hormonal
[18:04] testing as well and gave her certain
[18:06] supplements to just help kind of with
[18:07] the hormone balancing and her skin
[18:09] clear. She didn't need any conventional
[18:11] treatments, which I was thrilled about,
[18:13] honestly.
[18:14] >> Yeah.
[18:14] >> Um and yeah, and then you know, when
[18:17] when when I talk about when when
[18:19] patients come in like psoriasis is too.
[18:22] So,
[18:23] with psoriasis
[18:25] I find that these patients
[18:27] have so many other issues going on. They
[18:29] have cardiovascular issues like
[18:31] metabolic syndrome. So, and then
[18:33] pre-diabetic, they have hypothyroidism,
[18:36] they have low vitamin D. There it It's
[18:38] like a full picture with with psoriasis.
[18:41] So, so I I try to also do other workup.
[18:44] I I do look at their thyroid, I do look
[18:46] at their lipids and their vitamin D and
[18:50] and make sure that we're addressing all
[18:52] of those things. They're usually sleep
[18:53] deprived. I find that a lot of people
[18:55] who do like night shifts where their
[18:57] circadian rhythm is completely flipped
[18:59] upside down, that really sets off
[19:01] psoriasis. It sets on a lot of
[19:02] inflammatory skin issues, but we do see
[19:05] circadian rhythm disruption being a huge
[19:06] one with psoriasis.
[19:08] >> I've seen a lot of psoriasis patients
[19:09] and I find it's one of the slam dunks of
[19:10] functional medicine and even though it's
[19:11] such a like called the heartbreak of
[19:13] psoriasis [laughter] it's like you know
[19:15] and the things that I found were gluten
[19:17] are really top of the list. So anybody
[19:18] who's got that I got check for sure.
[19:21] >> Mhm.
[19:22] >> gut issues and particularly leaky gut
[19:24] and food sensitivities on top of that
[19:26] and and and also overgrowth of yeast
[19:29] which is a common
[19:30] and then heavy metals which are kind of
[19:32] often overlooked. And so
[19:33] >> Yeah.
[19:34] >> if you kind of dig around in those you
[19:35] usually you can find a way through. You
[19:37] need to find a good practitioner like
[19:39] you or functional medicine doctor to do
[19:40] because it's not something that
[19:41] traditional doctors even think about.
[19:43] >> They don't and I know and I wish there's
[19:44] a lot of like
[19:46] people I don't know I feel like a lot of
[19:47] controversy out there on like doing some
[19:49] of these forms of testing but
[19:52] but to me we we we don't have all the
[19:54] answers with the conventional testing.
[19:57] And so yeah I I know I really appreciate
[19:59] like your mission to to really bring
[20:01] about these other forms of
[20:03] how do we find out the root cause of
[20:05] these patients whether it is with heavy
[20:07] metals or gut microbiome testing.
[20:08] >> And then the truth is there's not a lot
[20:10] of research money going towards these
[20:12] modalities of nutrition and gut health
[20:15] and things that are really kind of not
[20:17] long-term treatments cuz think about it
[20:19] like if you if you get someone on
[20:21] a drug for
[20:22] you know acne like a a retinoid I mean
[20:25] they're kind of on it so it's like it's
[20:27] great for the drug company.
[20:28] >> [laughter]
[20:30] >> Uh but if you treat someone and they get
[20:31] better and they're off everything not so
[20:33] good. So there's not a lot of incentives
[20:35] for doing the foundational things. It
[20:37] doesn't mean that because there's a lack
[20:40] of like large double blind randomized
[20:42] controlled trials that it doesn't work.
[20:43] I would say the absence of evidence is
[20:44] not the evidence of absence.
[20:46] And I think you know as a clinician I'm
[20:49] observing things over and over like you
[20:51] are and I'm seeing that you know there's
[20:53] a there there. And yes we need more
[20:55] research and thank god that the the
[20:57] Medicare the center for Medicare and
[20:59] Medicaid innovation put up a hundred
[21:01] million dollars to study chronic
[21:02] diseases using functional medicine and
[21:05] lifestyle medicine which is amazing.
[21:07] There's there is some things happening,
[21:08] but that's that doesn't mean we can't
[21:10] already just take advantage of these
[21:11] things. Cuz they're generally low cost,
[21:13] they're low risk, and they're very safe
[21:15] to do. Changing your diet, changing your
[21:16] lifestyle, exercising, taking a few
[21:18] supplements. Let's talk about nutrition
[21:20] and the skin. What Tell me your
[21:22] philosophy around what should be like a
[21:23] healthy skin diet? And also like what do
[21:26] you use when you start to treat these
[21:27] chronic issues like psoriasis or eczema
[21:30] or acne or so forth.
[21:32] >> Yeah, when it comes to a healthy skin
[21:33] diet, mostly evidence comes back to a
[21:35] Mediterranean-based diet. Basically, I
[21:38] would just call it like a well-balanced
[21:40] diet. So, adequate protein, adequate
[21:42] healthy fats, low sugar,
[21:45] adequate fiber. I think fiber is also an
[21:46] underrated thing. We're seeing
[21:48] definitely low fiber correlate with a
[21:50] lot of issues, a lot with acne. Um but
[21:53] anyway, so so that's the basic premise,
[21:55] but we also want to make sure that we're
[21:57] adding like adequate nutrients, vitamin
[22:00] C, polyphenol-rich foods
[22:03] or supplements, but but I would say
[22:05] foods would be the the best route if you
[22:07] can do it. Um and other flavonoids as
[22:10] well as like carotenoids are huge as
[22:11] well, whether it's like beta-carotene or
[22:13] astaxanthin. So, foods rich in those
[22:15] ingredients. I
[22:17] It's tough
[22:18] because I I try not to be overly
[22:20] restrictive with patients. I feel like
[22:22] it ends up backfiring.
[22:23] >> Mhm.
[22:24] >> Um but I'm like if we can at least make
[22:26] the goal of making it more balanced, you
[22:28] know, making sure you're having your
[22:29] fruits and vegetables. I know that
[22:30] sounds so cliché, but doing that and
[22:32] making sure you're having adequate
[22:33] fiber, healthy fats, minimizing the
[22:35] processed foods, minimizing the sugar.
[22:37] That's where we have the most evidence.
[22:40] >> Tho- Those are foundational principles
[22:41] for general skin health.
[22:43] >> Mhm.
[22:44] >> But then when it comes to people with
[22:45] chronic conditions, like I I find that
[22:47] elimination diets can be a great place
[22:48] to start.
[22:49] >> Yes.
[22:49] >> Basically, gluten, dairy, sugar,
[22:51] processed foods. It's like it just makes
[22:53] such a difference.
[22:54] >> So, where we have the most evidence for
[22:56] acne, it's it's dairy and with sugar.
[22:58] When it comes to dairy, it's more so
[23:00] skim milk than it is whole milk, but but
[23:04] the evidence is pretty compelling for
[23:06] really all forms of dairy.
[23:08] Uh
[23:08] >> [gasps]
[23:08] >> and then when it comes to
[23:11] and then and then increasing fiber, too.
[23:13] We we're seeing that lack of fiber is
[23:14] also contributing to acne.
[23:16] >> Look at that affects the microbiome.
[23:18] >> Yep, exactly. Yep. And then there's also
[23:21] this idea where if you're not
[23:24] you're not regular with your bowel
[23:25] movements, it can cause a build-up of
[23:27] like certain hormone metabolites as well
[23:28] that could potentially contribute to
[23:30] acne. So, something to think about when
[23:33] it comes to psoriasis,
[23:35] most of the evidence, like I mentioned,
[23:36] is Mediterranean diet, healthy fats. I
[23:38] try to supplement with omega-3s and
[23:40] vitamin D. And then gluten, it's
[23:43] interesting
[23:44] from what I learned is that if if they
[23:46] do have a sensitivity to gluten with
[23:48] like certain antibody testing, then I
[23:50] would definitely have them go
[23:51] gluten-free. I'm not as adamant about it
[23:53] if they're negative with those tests.
[23:55] >> I I find it's worth trying cuz there's
[23:57] there's two parts of your immune system
[23:58] as as obviously you know, but for people
[24:00] listening, there's the one that's
[24:02] forming antibodies, which we can test
[24:03] for, and there's the one that doesn't
[24:05] form antibodies, which is the ancient
[24:07] immune system or the innate immune
[24:08] system,
[24:09] that doesn't form antibodies. And
[24:11] there's a there's a good body of
[24:12] literature that a lot of people react to
[24:14] gluten from the innate immune system,
[24:16] which is not measurable.
[24:18] So, I I I find it often like a good, you
[24:20] know, you you know, just is a good kind
[24:22] of test for like 2 or 3 weeks, and not
[24:25] forever. And then and then you see. So,
[24:27] what like are there foundational
[24:28] nutrients you recommend for the skin?
[24:29] You mentioned omega-3s, vitamin D.
[24:32] >> I keep it pretty basic. Omega-3s,
[24:34] healthy fats in general, whether it's,
[24:35] you know, avocado, nuts,
[24:38] fish. I mean, not all the time, but you
[24:40] know, kind of the you know,
[24:42] incorporating the ones that are smaller,
[24:43] like I like sardines. I mean, if you get
[24:45] wild-caught salmon, great.
[24:47] And then when it comes to um
[24:50] other [clears throat] things to
[24:51] incorporate more, fiber, so that's just
[24:53] vegetables in general, fruits in
[24:55] general.
[24:56] But there's really not like one specific
[24:58] thing. You know, I meant like I
[25:00] mentioned carotenoids. I tell people
[25:02] really try to eat the rainbow, and I
[25:03] know you've like mentioned this, too,
[25:05] for for in general for like for skin
[25:07] issues, but um there's not like, oh, if
[25:10] you eat more of this specific food,
[25:11] you're going to you're going to get all
[25:12] better.
[25:13] >> Yeah, well, Nick because Perrone was
[25:15] talking about like wild salmon. I think
[25:16] omega 3s are so big. I find that if I
[25:18] would say like, what is the one
[25:20] clearly like clinically effective skin
[25:23] nutrient that I've used over and over
[25:24] again
[25:25] for skin, hair, and nails, it's omega
[25:28] 3s. If someone's low in omega 3s, at a
[25:31] Function Health, we test everybody for
[25:32] the omega index, and you know, you just
[25:34] want to be over 8%. Most people are not.
[25:37] Most people are quite low.
[25:39] And so, you know, we don't get a lot of
[25:41] you know, wild animals or wild plants or
[25:44] wild food, which is where typically
[25:46] these omega 3s are. So, I said I think
[25:48] it's important to supplement.
[25:49] >> Talk about how hormones play a role in
[25:52] skin and how I know you talk a lot about
[25:55] sort of female health and reproductive
[25:56] health and
[25:58] some of the things that happen on
[25:59] menopause. Like
[26:00] tell us about how how you help think
[26:02] women think about their skin health.
[26:04] >> Yeah, so
[26:04] >> And then and then we'll get into the
[26:05] aging and that like cuz I think we've
[26:08] been talking clinically about what are
[26:09] the health
[26:10] pathologies, let's say, which are you
[26:12] know, diseases of the skin, but then
[26:14] we're going to get into like just how do
[26:15] you make sure your skin ages well, and
[26:18] that's that's sort of topic, too, we'll
[26:19] get to, but I want to sort of
[26:21] sort of just talk about sort of hormonal
[26:22] dysregulation cuz you did mention gut
[26:24] and hormones as key drivers of skin
[26:26] dysfunction.
[26:27] >> Huge, yeah. There's different types of
[26:28] hormones. There's estrogen,
[26:30] progesterone, testosterone, the sex
[26:32] hormones, and then there's also thyroid
[26:34] hormone, which plays a big role with a
[26:35] lot of skin issues, and then insulin
[26:38] being another hormone. So, I
[26:40] [clears throat]
[26:41] I see all of those playing a role with
[26:43] how we age and how that can contribute
[26:45] to inflammation in our skin.
[26:47] So,
[26:48] I mean, just to kind of touch on each of
[26:50] them, when we see thyroid issues, we see
[26:53] more dry skin, we see brittle nails, we
[26:55] see more hair loss,
[26:57] we see yeah, just like
[27:00] decreased wound healing time, just like
[27:02] the circulation's not as robust. So, so,
[27:05] you know, when I see those issues,
[27:06] anytime somebody comes in with hair
[27:07] loss, I always check thyroid. When it
[27:10] comes to insulin, we talked about acne,
[27:12] so insulin resistance, we see more so in
[27:14] acne, we I can also see it in psoriasis.
[27:17] It can also contribute to accelerated
[27:18] aging, so that's something we like to
[27:20] look into. And then when it comes to the
[27:22] sex hormones and you mentioned
[27:23] menopause, so, you know, we have a
[27:25] drastic drop in estrogen
[27:28] when in like within the first 5 years of
[27:30] menopause. And estrogen is huge when it
[27:33] comes to just overall skin health.
[27:35] It plays a role and testosterone as
[27:37] well, testosterone goes down, too. Um
[27:39] and I'll talk about what the benefits
[27:40] are, but but with estrogen, it's it
[27:43] activates fibroblast activity. These are
[27:44] the cells that help build collagen. So,
[27:47] that's that's how, you know, collagen
[27:49] production goes down. It also
[27:50] contributes to increased like hydration
[27:52] in the skin, whether it's increased
[27:53] hyaluronic acid or just increa-
[27:56] increased uh lipid production in our
[27:58] cells. So, so, our skin barrier becomes
[28:01] altered, our skin becomes more dry when
[28:02] we have less estrogen. And it also plays
[28:05] a role in like the thickness of our
[28:06] skin, so we have what's called epidermal
[28:07] atrophy. And that's where you get like
[28:09] that kind of that creepy skin um kind of
[28:12] in that postmenopausal period. So,
[28:13] estrogen plays a really big role with
[28:15] that. It works alongside progesterone.
[28:18] And then like testosterone,
[28:18] testosterone's really huge when it comes
[28:21] to and the androgens in general when it
[28:22] comes to like oil production. And so,
[28:24] that plays a role with skin barrier
[28:25] dysfunction, that's why we always see
[28:26] dry, itchy people as they get older.
[28:29] Everyone just gets more dry.
[28:30] >> Are you a fan of hormone replacement
[28:32] therapy for women?
[28:33] >> I am a big fan. I think it does wonders
[28:35] for your skin. Yeah.
[28:37] >> And how how good is the how good is the
[28:39] data on that?
[28:40] >> Uh we haven't really there I don't think
[28:41] there's been like been a lot of amazing
[28:43] studies that are dedicated to looking at
[28:45] skin health and I would love for there
[28:47] to be more. It's more just It's kind of
[28:50] a side effect that we've been seeing.
[28:51] >> So, you basically clinically observe
[28:52] this. And And And And I think it's true.
[28:55] I think women do notice that. And I
[28:56] think, you know, it
[28:57] like you say that these hormones are
[28:59] really play a role. So, you talked about
[29:00] insulin resistance, you talked about
[29:01] thyroid dysfunction, you talked about,
[29:02] you know, sex hormones, all playing a
[29:04] role. So, I think I think, you know,
[29:06] getting your hormones tuned up is super
[29:07] important. And as
[29:08] particularly women as they go through
[29:10] perimenopause and menopause, there's so
[29:12] many things that start to happen. They
[29:13] get more insulin resistant, their
[29:14] thyroids often can go wacky.
[29:16] Their sex hormones are going wacky. And
[29:18] everything's going to kind of And then
[29:20] their of course their stress hormones
[29:21] are going wacky cuz they're in the
[29:22] middle of this sandwich generation with
[29:24] older parents and younger teenage kids
[29:26] and, you know, careers. And it's like
[29:28] it's kind of a soup of of dysfunctional
[29:31] hormones of insulin, thyroid, sex
[29:34] hormones, and cortisol, and stress
[29:36] hormones. So, I think I think that that
[29:39] that's often not really well addressed
[29:40] with traditional medicine. But there's
[29:41] ways to look at these things. There's
[29:43] ways to understand where you are.
[29:44] There's ways to work to optimize your
[29:46] health with these both with, you know,
[29:47] hormone replacement therapy, but also
[29:49] lifestyle, diet, and so forth. Let's
[29:51] instead of get into the skin aging cuz I
[29:54] think it's just sort of a separate topic
[29:55] that I want to dive into.
[29:57] Um but I just before we do that, I just
[29:59] want to close on this first bit by
[30:01] saying that if you have a skin issue, if
[30:03] you have psoriasis or eczema
[30:05] or rosacea or acne, which are the kind
[30:08] most common ones. Did I forget any? Did
[30:10] I forget any?
[30:11] Yeah. Yeah, and these are the bread and
[30:13] butter, right? The bread and butter of
[30:14] life. These These are things that have
[30:16] solutions that you're not necessarily
[30:18] hearing from your regular dermatologist
[30:20] that a functional medicine approach,
[30:21] integrated medicine approach can really
[30:23] help solve. And sometimes it takes a
[30:25] minute to figure it out, unpack it, to
[30:27] be a detective, but it's it's worth
[30:30] going into that route. And sometimes it
[30:32] does mean modifying your life a little
[30:33] bit. Like sometimes you can't eat
[30:34] gluten. Sometimes you can't eat dairy.
[30:36] Sometimes you have to fix your gut.
[30:37] Sometimes you Like there's things you
[30:39] have to do. work, which is why I think
[30:41] so many people don't do it, too.
[30:43] >> Yeah, but but but the other alternative
[30:45] is just to be miserable.
[30:46] >> Exactly. I don't know. For sure, for
[30:47] sure, yeah.
[30:48] >> Sometimes when you're craving something
[30:50] sweet, the answer isn't necessarily to
[30:51] have more willpower. It's worth asking
[30:54] what your body might actually be asking
[30:56] for. And one thing I pay attention to is
[30:57] whether I'm getting enough protein
[30:58] throughout the day. Protein is important
[31:00] for satiety, for muscle,
[31:03] for providing the essential amino acids
[31:04] our bodies need. And that's one reason
[31:06] perfect amino's has become part of my
[31:08] daily routine. I take it every day
[31:10] because it's a simple way to supplement
[31:11] my protein and take with all nine
[31:13] essential amino acids without adding a
[31:15] lot of calories. I especially like
[31:17] having on days when I'm traveling,
[31:19] working long hours, or just know that I
[31:20] haven't gotten a protein from food. It's
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[31:27] you're looking for help to fill protein
[31:28] gaps, go to bodyhealth.com and use the
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[32:35] amazing patient, I'll just tell you
[32:36] quickly, who has psoriatic arthritis,
[32:38] which is like an advanced form of
[32:39] psoriasis that affects the joints.
[32:41] >> So hard.
[32:42] >> It is a tough condition and at Cleveland
[32:44] Clinic we did a we did a study where we
[32:46] took our patients in our center for
[32:49] functional medicine
[32:50] were treated by the functional medicine
[32:51] doctors who had psoriasis or rheumatoid
[32:53] arthritis comparing it to the
[32:54] rheumatology patients in the
[32:56] rheumatology department, which is rated
[32:57] number one in the world for rheumatology
[32:59] at Cleveland Clinic.
[33:01] So these people know what they're doing.
[33:03] They really got and the training in the
[33:05] and they and the fellow looked at our
[33:07] data. We didn't analyze the data. They
[33:08] looked at our data. They saw their
[33:10] traditional rating scales from that they
[33:11] have in medicine for rheumatology
[33:13] >> Uh-huh.
[33:14] >> and we did better across the board
[33:17] in outcomes
[33:19] we using functional medicine not using
[33:21] drugs compared to them using all the
[33:22] drugs.
[33:22] >> Doing the usual things like looking at
[33:24] their gut
[33:24] >> The gut health, nutrition, yeah,
[33:26] everything, elimination diet, the usual
[33:27] stuff. And it was like I think it was
[33:29] shocking to them, but it was like
[33:30] obvious to me. I had a patient who was a
[33:32] psoriatic arthritis patient who had
[33:35] multiple other issues. She had
[33:36] pre-diabetes, she had migraines, she had
[33:38] depression, she had irritable bowel, she
[33:40] had reflux
[33:41] and obviously psoriasis um and and
[33:44] arthritis. And she was taking Stelara,
[33:46] which is a very expensive immune
[33:48] suppressing drug. And she was taking a
[33:50] bunch of other drugs from all like her
[33:51] neurologist and her psychiatrist and her
[33:54] gastroenterologist and her
[33:55] endocrinologist for her diabetes and her
[33:57] pre-diabetes and her migraines and her
[33:58] you know, it's like and they're all like
[34:00] these are the best doctors in the world
[34:02] and they are giving them the best
[34:03] treatments for that, but they're all
[34:04] treating like a like a blind man and an
[34:05] elephant. And I'm like what is the
[34:07] common denominator in this patient? It's
[34:09] inflammation.
[34:10] All these migraines are inflammation,
[34:12] pre-diabetes inflammation, irritable
[34:14] bowel is inflammation, reflux
[34:16] inflammation, joint pain inflammation,
[34:18] obviously psoriasis is skin
[34:19] inflammation.
[34:21] And I said look, I don't
[34:23] she had severe bloating and severe like
[34:26] reflux and all these symptoms. I was
[34:28] like I think you have SIBO, which is
[34:29] bacterial overgrowth. And I got I think
[34:31] you probably also have fungal overgrowth
[34:32] given how many antibiotics and steroids
[34:34] you've been on.
[34:35] And so I basically gave her a
[34:36] non-absorbed antibiotic, Rifaximin, and
[34:38] I gave her an antifungal.
[34:40] Not typical treatments for psoriasis.
[34:42] >> [laughter]
[34:42] >> No.
[34:43] >> And I gave her some probiotics and
[34:45] vitamin D and fish oil and I probably
[34:47] also zinc or something and not a lot and
[34:49] then and I put her off gluten, dairy,
[34:51] sugar, processed food. I basically put
[34:53] her on my 10-day detox diet, which
[34:55] essentially is an elimination diet to
[34:56] get rid of all the potential triggers
[34:58] for short term.
[34:59] She came back 6 weeks later and she
[35:01] said, "I'm better. Like I have no
[35:03] psoriasis, no arthritis. I stopped all
[35:05] my meds." I said, "I didn't tell you to
[35:07] stop your meds." She said, "Well, I
[35:08] know, but I felt better."
[35:09] No migraines, no pre-diabetes. She lost
[35:11] 20 lb, no more reflux, no more irritable
[35:13] bowel,
[35:15] and no more depression. And depression
[35:16] is also inflammation, right? In the
[35:18] brain. And so I was like,
[35:20] this is this is
[35:22] an example of a way that, you know,
[35:24] traditional medicine misses the boat.
[35:26] >> Mhm.
[35:27] >> Like they just kind of don't understand
[35:29] how to think about the problem. And that
[35:31] by using these other sort of filters to
[35:33] see the same
[35:35] symptoms and the same diseases, we see a
[35:38] different set of issues that are going
[35:40] on. And it's almost like we put on
[35:41] special glasses, like you put on
[35:43] infrared or night vision glasses
[35:44] [clears throat] and you go like, "Oh, I
[35:45] see what's going on." And then she, you
[35:47] know, she but but this is not People
[35:49] say, "Oh, that's an anecdote or
[35:50] whatever." And I'm like, "Yeah,
[35:52] I I've done this for 30 years and I can
[35:54] tell you there's hundreds and hundreds,
[35:56] I'm going to say thousands of patients
[35:57] across the spectrum of different
[35:59] diseases that have responded this way
[36:01] and not everybody responds to everything
[36:02] and sometimes it's a puzzle and like I
[36:04] had a patient with eczema who couldn't
[36:05] get better and I then I figured out it
[36:06] was mercury, but it's just it's it's
[36:08] really about being persistent. So, if
[36:11] you're listening out there and you have
[36:12] these issues,
[36:13] don't give up. There's a way forward.
[36:15] You might have to change your lifestyle,
[36:16] but it works. Let's get into let's get
[36:18] into aging. What's happening in terms of
[36:21] like skin as we age? Like what goes
[36:23] wrong and how do we how do we improve?
[36:25] Do you You some people like
[36:27] who look like a hundred when they're 45
[36:29] and people who are like 90 who look
[36:31] amazing.
[36:32] >> Well, yeah, there's different things
[36:33] happening at the different layers of our
[36:34] skin and I'll just like briefly touch on
[36:36] it. So, you know, the top layer of the
[36:37] epidermis, as we get older, our cellular
[36:39] turnover gets more sluggish. It slows
[36:41] down. So, that contributes to just kind
[36:43] of more dull, uneven skin. And I think
[36:46] of that phrase like smooth as a baby's
[36:48] butt because literally like babies,
[36:50] their skin cell turnover is every 2
[36:51] weeks. As adults, it's every 4 weeks.
[36:53] But then, like I said, as we get older,
[36:55] it just becomes more sluggish. So, so
[36:57] that's what creates like the build up of
[36:58] dry skin and like uneven skin tone. So,
[37:01] there's that. And then, you know, we
[37:02] have our melanocytes, which sit at the
[37:04] base of our epidermis, and these are the
[37:05] cells that produce pigment. And their
[37:08] activity just becomes more like
[37:10] unpredictable. Like some just poop out.
[37:13] They're like, "I'm just going to like
[37:15] release all this pigment." And we get
[37:16] like more sun spots and like uneven
[37:17] pigmentation as we get older, as well.
[37:20] And then, we're also, you know,
[37:22] producing lipids, and we have sebaceous
[37:24] glands that are living in the dermis,
[37:26] but then they get released into the
[37:27] epidermis. And lipids are also
[37:29] responsible, like I mentioned earlier,
[37:30] for keeping our skin hydrated, keeping
[37:32] our skin barrier intact. So, as we get
[37:34] older, we get more dry skin.
[37:37] And then, below the epidermis, we have
[37:38] the dermis. And the probably the biggest
[37:40] component is the collagen, which sits in
[37:42] the dermis. And I mean, there's other
[37:44] components, elastin, hyaluronic acid, or
[37:46] what we call glycosaminoglycans, which
[37:48] are these sugar molecules like
[37:49] hyaluronic acid, that sort of like live
[37:51] between the collagen fibers and support
[37:53] the collagen and elastin. And as we get
[37:55] older, we get breakdown of collagen, we
[37:58] get more disorganized collagen and
[37:59] elastin.
[38:01] And that contributes to wrinkles that we
[38:03] see. And that's a natural part of aging,
[38:05] but there's certainly things that
[38:06] accelerate that, which we can talk
[38:07] about. Below the dermis is the subdermis
[38:11] or the subcutaneous fat, which, you
[38:13] know, as we get older, fat decreases, as
[38:15] well.
[38:16] And then, below that is bone. As we get
[38:18] older, like our bone our bone starts
[38:20] resorbing and like, yeah, yeah, we we
[38:22] have decreased bone So like I think of
[38:24] it like a mattress, you know, like the
[38:25] mattress cover is like our epidermis and
[38:28] then the springs are like your dermis
[38:29] and then the actual bed frame
[38:31] is your as you know, your bone structure
[38:33] that's supporting everything. And so so
[38:35] we need all of that to look like a very
[38:37] appealing bed.
[38:38] >> From your perspective, you know, you
[38:40] know, you know, with functional
[38:41] integrated dermatology, how do you think
[38:43] about skin differently with aging? How
[38:46] do you how do you help people take care
[38:47] of their skin differently with
[38:48] nutrition, lifestyle, hormones, gut
[38:52] supplements
[38:53] >> I know. I love this question.
[38:54] >> Yeah, topical stuff does matter.
[38:56] >> It does matter and yeah, if you were to
[38:57] ask a conventional dermatologist,
[38:59] they're you know, there are a lot of
[39:00] things that we have so much evidence
[39:01] for, decades of evidence topically that
[39:04] can help your skin, whether it's
[39:05] retinoids, sun protection.
[39:07] Uh there's other things like vitamin C,
[39:08] like topical antioxidants. But but there
[39:12] are also things that we can do
[39:13] internally that really help
[39:16] our cellular activity, repair the cells.
[39:19] And like you mentioned, nutrition,
[39:21] stress, sleep, other like environmental
[39:25] like stressors. I mean, we know that UV
[39:27] is huge, but whether it's pollution or
[39:29] like under like other like endocrine
[39:31] disrupting, you know, you know,
[39:32] chemicals.
[39:33] These all come together.
[39:35] And then also just being sedentary, too.
[39:37] Um these all just come together and
[39:39] accelerate aging. Oh, sorry, I forgot to
[39:40] mention cigarette smoke. I mean, a lot
[39:41] of people I feel like are not smoking
[39:43] cigarettes as much these days. People
[39:44] still do, but cigarette smoke is huge.
[39:46] >> aging here.
[39:47] >> Yeah, very common there. But yeah,
[39:48] cigarettes and alcohol, definitely
[39:50] create more inflammation.
[39:52] >> Okay, say cigarettes, I think people
[39:54] understand if you smoke, you look kind
[39:55] of haggard and you get wrinkles fast.
[39:58] And if you want to wrinkle and age
[39:59] quickly, definitely smoke.
[40:01] But alcohol, I don't I I don't think
[40:03] people know. Can you talk about alcohol
[40:04] and skin?
[40:05] >> Yeah, alcohol can accelerate skin aging.
[40:07] So our bodies are exposed to a a variety
[40:09] of different toxins, but our liver,
[40:11] thankfully, is there to help stop
[40:14] uh or to help just kind of decrease that
[40:16] toxic burden.
[40:18] But when that burden accumulates, if our
[40:20] liver is stressed or distracted by
[40:21] things like alcohol or potentially other
[40:24] medications, then that toxic burden can
[40:26] increase and and increase stress on our
[40:28] cells, what we call like oxidative
[40:29] stress, and that causes cells to not
[40:32] function as well. So, when it comes to
[40:34] collagen, we're not building collagen.
[40:36] Inflammation from oxidative stress can
[40:38] also break down collagen more quickly.
[40:40] >> So so Nicholas Perricone was right.
[40:42] Oxidative stress and inflammation are
[40:43] key to skin breakdown and aging.
[40:45] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[40:46] >> So
[40:47] you mentioned collagen a few times.
[40:49] People hear about collagen.
[40:51] Um and they take collagen
[40:54] >> Right. Yeah.
[40:55] >> supplements. Is that a thing? Like Is
[40:57] there a data on it? Or is it just
[40:59] >> Yeah.
[40:59] >> Is it just window dressing? Like what is
[41:01] actually going on with the
[41:03] industry? Cuz you know, people think,
[41:04] "Oh, I'm taking collagen. I'm getting
[41:05] collagen." Is that actually happening?
[41:07] >> I know. It's It's not a straightforward
[41:08] answer. I would say overall, yes. I
[41:11] think that there's enough data to
[41:12] support collagen consumption.
[41:15] But, you know, a lot of the data that is
[41:18] pretty compelling is industry backed. So
[41:20] you kind of have to take that with a
[41:21] grain of salt. Um
[41:24] anecdotally, I do see I do see a lot of
[41:27] improvement in patients who do take
[41:28] collagen peptides.
[41:30] And yeah, just because you take collagen
[41:31] peptides doesn't mean that that collagen
[41:32] goes to your skin. It's more so that the
[41:34] collagen peptides can send signals to
[41:36] help your body build better collagen.
[41:39] But I also advise patients
[41:42] you I'd rather you also get better
[41:44] sleep, get some protection, decrease the
[41:46] stress in your life, um strength train.
[41:49] I would rather you like have that all
[41:51] dialed in before you're incorporating
[41:52] collagen peptides. I don't think it's
[41:53] like the easy switch to just add
[41:55] collagen peptides.
[41:56] >> You can't eat crap and be stressed and
[41:57] not sleep and just take a bunch of
[41:59] collagen supplements and think you're
[42:01] fine.
[42:01] >> Yeah, exactly.
[42:02] >> [laughter]
[42:02] >> But the short answer is yes, I do think
[42:04] that I'm on team collagen.
[42:05] >> great. Amazing. I think that's helpful.
[42:07] I think I've always wondered cuz I I you
[42:09] know, I think they're they're good in in
[42:10] gut. They can be
[42:12] good but I always wonder do they get
[42:13] really absorbed and used properly but
[42:16] the other thing you sort of we didn't
[42:17] really get into yet was sort of the the
[42:19] sun and you know I think UV radiation
[42:23] and then you know when you get a sunburn
[42:27] that's because the sun's creating
[42:29] oxidative stress and inflammation and
[42:31] damaging the skin and that's why you get
[42:33] a sunburn. Uh and that and that creates
[42:36] lasting damage. Um
[42:38] how how does that work in and and
[42:41] um and what happens in the mitochondria
[42:42] in the skin because we didn't really
[42:43] talk about mitochondria which are
[42:44] basically little energy powerhouses in
[42:46] the cells but they are also key to skin
[42:48] health and and can you kind of tie that
[42:50] together or how
[42:52] all that connects?
[42:53] >> UV radiation is probably the number one
[42:56] extrinsic factor that contributes to
[42:57] skin aging.
[42:58] >> So beauty from the outside in but also
[43:00] sun from the outside in.
[43:01] >> Sun from the outside in is huge.
[43:04] Yeah. I mean yeah we know genetics plays
[43:06] a role and all these other things sleep,
[43:08] stress, nutrition, exercise these all
[43:10] play a role but but we but by far it's
[43:14] and smoking too but by far it's it's UV
[43:16] radiation. And yes as you mentioned it
[43:19] increases oxidative stress in our cells.
[43:22] Basically it's it's causing like a
[43:23] localized stress response within our
[43:25] cells and it's causing DNA damage. And
[43:27] you know it's all fine because if you're
[43:29] healthy we have the DNA repair
[43:30] mechanisms in place that go in and like
[43:32] repair that DNA. We have like the
[43:34] antioxidants that can fight those free
[43:35] radicals those unstable molecules from
[43:37] oxidative stress and you know we can
[43:39] repair and heal from that but with
[43:41] enough hits your body's like okay like
[43:43] we've done enough and that's why you see
[43:46] those the consequences of just prolonged
[43:48] and like just chronic sun exposure come
[43:50] out later in life because it's like your
[43:52] body has already done so much to try to
[43:54] combat that that it just comes out later
[43:56] in life and so when you have this
[43:59] oxidative stress within your cells from
[44:00] UV radiation it affects the function of
[44:03] the organelles and namely mitochondria.
[44:05] The mitochondria
[44:07] I mean as we age, mitochondrial function
[44:08] does decline, but but stressors like UV
[44:12] UV radiation definitely accelerates the
[44:15] the mitochondrial dysfunction within the
[44:17] cell. So, when your powerhouse of the
[44:19] cell, the mitochondria aren't working as
[44:21] well, then that cell itself will create
[44:25] more oxidative stress to your body. And
[44:29] and like your body just has a harder
[44:30] time like fighting it. Like it it's
[44:31] almost winning. And then So, when your
[44:33] cells aren't working well in the skin,
[44:34] you get more collagen breakdown. Like
[44:35] those are like the fibroblasts, which is
[44:37] the cell that makes the collagen. Yeah,
[44:38] don't work well. And then yeah, it just
[44:40] continues. And then like your epidermis,
[44:41] the keratinocytes at the top layer of
[44:43] your scalp, they're I mean, our skin's a
[44:44] dynamic living breathing organ. You
[44:46] know, we think the skin's just there to
[44:48] like make you look good. Uh but no, it's
[44:50] doing so much. Um it's it's our cells
[44:53] are constantly regenerating. We're
[44:54] building things. So, when you have that
[44:56] mitochondrial dysfunction, which like in
[44:59] addition to UV radiation could be from a
[45:00] bunch of other things, but um when you
[45:02] have that, then yeah, that's that's why
[45:04] you can see a lot of cellular aging and
[45:06] then skin aging from that.
[45:07] >> Something people don't really talk about
[45:09] is like you know, skin health related to
[45:11] mitochondrial health and how much energy
[45:13] it takes to have a healthy skin. Well,
[45:14] as we age, you said the mitochondria
[45:16] become more injured and damaged just
[45:17] because of aging itself, because of
[45:19] insulin resistance, because of
[45:21] generalized inflammation in the body,
[45:22] because of sun damage, because of poor
[45:25] diets, because of all these reasons that
[45:27] we we accelerate mitochondrial injury.
[45:29] And it doesn't just affect the energy in
[45:31] in the cells in our tissues and organs,
[45:34] but in our in our brain, but also in our
[45:35] skin.
[45:36] And I I think some people don't really
[45:37] realize and then I would love you to
[45:39] talk about this process of sort of how
[45:41] do we how do we take care of our
[45:42] mitochondria
[45:44] and how do we think about like the
[45:45] repair and regeneration renewal of
[45:47] mitochondria? There's a concept in
[45:49] medicine called autophagy, which means
[45:51] cellular cleanup. Essentially means
[45:52] self-eating. Like at night when we
[45:54] sleep, our bodies will gobble up uh with
[45:58] lysosomes all these old parts and
[45:59] recycle them. But also the mitochondria
[46:01] have a process like that too. Well,
[46:03] mitophagy. So, can you talk about
[46:04] mitophagy and and skin and how that all
[46:07] connects? And and how accumulating
[46:10] damaged mitochondria leads to more skin
[46:11] aging and how to use mitophagy to help
[46:13] clear and fix that for healthy skin
[46:15] aging.
[46:15] >> Yeah, there's there's and there's
[46:17] multiple ways to address mitophagy. So,
[46:19] yes, mitophagy
[46:21] is what you said. It it helps clear out
[46:23] that kind of the damaged mitochondria
[46:25] that mitochondria that aren't
[46:26] functioning cuz they're really just like
[46:27] taking up space and then the cells
[46:29] aren't working as well.
[46:30] So, to optimize mitophagy, we want to
[46:34] decrease the stress in the cell, the
[46:35] oxidative stress in the cell. So, doing
[46:37] things like, you know, decreasing
[46:40] processed foods, those
[46:42] can, you know, add to the stress in the
[46:44] cell, decrease UV radiation. And that's
[46:47] a whole 'nother topic cuz I know the sun
[46:48] is important, too. Um, it's vitamin D,
[46:50] vitamin vitamin D, all of that. But,
[46:52] there's a way to do it responsibly. But,
[46:55] yes, but but minimizing like chronic UV
[46:57] exposure. So, there's that, there's
[46:58] nutrition. Actually, um,
[47:02] you know,
[47:03] sleeping adequately. Sleep is when we're
[47:05] doing so much repair.
[47:07] Not only, you know, within our within
[47:10] our skin cells, but like our whole body.
[47:11] So, so important. And then,
[47:14] uh, stress, minimizing stress. Stress
[47:16] contributes to more oxidative stress
[47:18] literally within our cells. So,
[47:20] minimizing that. I know we've talked
[47:21] about strength training. When it comes
[47:23] to to exercising, we know it's
[47:25] nourishing ourselves like with the
[47:26] circulation, but it's also, you know,
[47:28] improving things like insulin
[47:29] sensitivity. And when you when you have
[47:32] just all these other markers functioning
[47:34] better, then unless and you have less
[47:36] inflammation, your your mitochondria are
[47:38] going to work better. So, by minimizing
[47:40] all these things, you can
[47:41] >> And also increases the number and and
[47:43] the
[47:44] >> Yeah, the number of mitochondria
[47:45] >> of mitochondria exercise.
[47:47] >> yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, I know
[47:49] exercise I think is like so amazing for
[47:51] mitochondria.
[47:52] And and there's also supplements that
[47:53] you can take, too. Like it's it's we
[47:55] live in a toxic world, so it's hard to
[47:57] to really combat all of these stressors
[48:00] with our bodies. I mean, yes, we we we
[48:02] do have
[48:03] >> the foundations, but supplements help.
[48:05] >> foundations, but supplements do help.
[48:06] And things that are anti-inflammatory
[48:08] are helpful. I mean, you know, we talked
[48:10] about omega-3s for a while. And then,
[48:13] you know, vitamin D supplementation can
[48:14] also help with that oxidative stress,
[48:16] too, actually. And um and then I'm also
[48:18] a fan of things like urolithin A, where
[48:20] it really does target mitophagy
[48:22] directly. And you you can get some
[48:25] endogenous urolithin A, like, you know,
[48:27] it's a byproduct of like things like
[48:29] walnuts and pomegranates
[48:31] from your gut, but but I do think that
[48:34] oral supplementation
[48:37] can definitely and
[48:38] benefit everyone because it's like only
[48:41] 40% of people can actually create their
[48:43] own like urolithin A. So, um and
[48:46] urolithin A, we know, helps with
[48:48] mitophagy within your cells.
[48:50] And I mean, there's there's oral
[48:52] versions or topical versions, but that's
[48:54] something that I would certainly
[48:55] consider. I would also consider things
[48:57] like, you know, just polyphenols,
[48:58] whether it's through foods or through
[49:01] supplements. You know, there's decent
[49:02] data with EGCG, which is from green tea,
[49:06] >> Yeah.
[49:06] >> uh as well as like uh like cocoa
[49:08] flavanols. And then, we I mentioned
[49:10] carotenoids earlier, which include
[49:12] things like astaxanthin and beta
[49:14] carotene. These all help kind of reduce
[49:16] that oxidative stress burden within your
[49:18] cells, which then will, in turn, help
[49:20] with mitophagy.
[49:21] >> Astaxanthin is something that's in
[49:23] salmon cuz it's from the algae.
[49:25] >> Yeah.
[49:26] >> what the salmon eat that makes it them
[49:29] uh orange.
[49:30] >> Yeah, it makes it orange. Right, right.
[49:31] I know, some people
[49:32] >> It's like carrots. It's like the same
[49:33] thing.
[49:34] >> I know there's this trend with young
[49:35] people that's called like tan maxing,
[49:37] and they like are consuming all the
[49:38] these like carrots and astaxanthin
[49:40] supplements so they can like look
[49:41] >> I I did that once. I I wasn't
[49:43] intentionally. I just I heard carrots
[49:44] was good for me some way back when 30
[49:47] and I was drinking carrots every day and
[49:48] I was like, "Wow, I'm like orange."
[49:51] What's
[49:52] >> crazy. I I want to double click on your
[49:53] Urolithin A. For people listening, it's
[49:55] what we call a postbiotic. So, when you
[49:58] eat certain compounds, and these are
[50:00] polyphenols, can be pomegranate, green
[50:02] tea, cranberry, walnuts, whatever,
[50:06] your bacteria, if you have the right
[50:08] bacteria, will process that and create
[50:11] metabolites.
[50:12] And some of those metabolites
[50:15] uh have beneficial effects. So, you
[50:17] know, people understand that probably a
[50:18] third or half of the metabolites in
[50:20] their bloodstream are from their gut
[50:22] microbiome. They're not They're not made
[50:23] by your cells, they're made by these
[50:24] bacteria that are producing all these
[50:26] molecules. And when you have bad bugs,
[50:27] they're producing bad crap. And they're
[50:28] producing When they have good bugs,
[50:30] they're producing these beneficial
[50:31] things. And so, your Urolithin A is,
[50:33] like you said, most people don't have
[50:35] microbiome because of I mean, I I I give
[50:37] talks and I'm like, "Who here has never
[50:39] taken antibiotics?" And there's a
[50:40] thousand people like, "Nobody." Nobody
[50:42] will raise their hand. They're like, "I
[50:42] mean, once somebody raised their hand
[50:44] out of a thousand people." They're like,
[50:45] "Oh, I never took antibiotics." So,
[50:47] like, it's not very common. I mean, all
[50:49] of us have all of us have antibiotics.
[50:50] We kind of kill off the bugs. And so,
[50:52] it's really important to help um to
[50:54] support that those bugs. But also, like
[50:57] you you you can actually take
[50:59] a a supplement uh a Urolithin A
[51:01] supplement. And it's it's something that
[51:03] actually um I use every day. Uh
[51:06] uh both mostly from from from a
[51:08] metabolic function, from a brain
[51:10] function, from a muscle function, from
[51:12] mitophagy. I don't think about it for my
[51:14] skin so much, but now I do.
[51:16] >> [laughter]
[51:17] >> And and I think uh
[51:18] there's a lot of data on it. And one of
[51:20] the things it also does seems to is
[51:21] reduce inflammation. So, it can reduce
[51:23] CRP, it helps with all these benefits.
[51:25] So, I I think it's one of those
[51:27] supplements that has a lot of research.
[51:28] And I I think you know, there's there's
[51:30] really millions and millions of dollars
[51:32] of research on this, which is not
[51:33] typical for most products. So, I think
[51:36] I'm impressed by it. It's in published
[51:37] in Journal of American Medical
[51:39] Association, major journals. It's not
[51:41] like in some supplement journal
[51:42] somewhere. It's This is good science.
[51:44] So, I I think I think this phenomena of
[51:47] of
[51:48] um taking care of your mitochondria as a
[51:49] concept is really important. You're only
[51:52] as healthy as your mitochondria and as
[51:54] when you age your mitochondria decline
[51:56] and function declines and a lot of the
[51:58] things that we know for healthy aging
[52:00] whether it's you know overnight 12 to 14
[52:03] hour fast or whether it's exercise or
[52:05] whether it's
[52:07] these are all things that help your
[52:08] mitochondria function better.
[52:10] So I think it's so it's so important.
[52:12] >> with your urolithin A too there's I
[52:13] learned that you have to be cautious too
[52:15] with which products have your urolithin
[52:17] A. Like there's really just like that
[52:18] one like Mitopure that has the like the
[52:21] properly studied amount or like the
[52:24] accurate amount of urolithin A cuz like
[52:26] if you look at some other brands
[52:28] they've been
[52:30] studied like with third party testing
[52:31] and where it doesn't actually show like
[52:32] the adequate
[52:34] >> the dose the dose. Yeah if you take 1 mg
[52:36] of aspirin it's not going to do
[52:37] anything. I agree I
[52:39] I have been
[52:41] a big fan of Timeline Nutrition and
[52:43] Mitopure for a long time. I've taken it
[52:44] for a long time. I think you know that's
[52:45] why they're one of the sponsors of my
[52:46] show
[52:48] and I think you have to be transparent
[52:49] about it. I think it it you know yes
[52:51] they're they're sponsoring the podcast
[52:53] but also like I I looked at the science
[52:56] and you have and it you know it makes
[52:58] sense and and and it's it's valid
[53:00] science and it it it's impressive
[53:02] compared compared to a lot of other
[53:03] products people take. It's it's
[53:05] impressive.
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[54:52] When when someone has skin aging, is
[54:55] there a way to kind of reverse it or is
[54:57] it is the damage already done?
[54:58] >> There There There's definitely ways to
[55:00] modify your cellular function. I think I
[55:04] don't know if you you're going to be
[55:05] 100%, you know, reversible, but like you
[55:08] know, if somebody comes in they're 70,
[55:09] we're not going to make them look like
[55:10] they're 25. But there are certainly I
[55:13] know it, all right.
[55:14] >> 66, I was hoping for a miracle here.
[55:17] >> I definitely think that we can for sure
[55:19] optimize cellular function.
[55:23] You know, regardless of how old you are.
[55:25] >> You know, one one of the things that
[55:25] sort of ties a little bit into and I
[55:27] wonder if it ties into this into
[55:29] mitochondria is is this exercise and you
[55:32] said that muscle building is one of the
[55:34] best ways that's a non-skin care
[55:36] intervention for healthier skin in
[55:37] midlife. And
[55:39] I don't really understand how strength
[55:40] training would affect the skin. Can you
[55:42] kind of unpack that for
[55:43] >> I know. Yeah, um they're basing that off
[55:45] of there is a study that was really
[55:46] interesting. It was a small study. It
[55:48] was like 60 or so participants. They
[55:51] were mid women in their kind of midlife
[55:53] age range. And they compared them doing
[55:56] aerobic exercise to strength training.
[56:00] And they both showed improvement with
[56:01] like hydration and barrier function in
[56:03] the skin. But they actually So and they
[56:05] they were measuring, you know, different
[56:07] layers of the skin. The
[56:10] the participants who were who were
[56:11] strength training actually had a thicker
[56:14] dermis. You know, so dermis is where our
[56:16] collagen sits.
[56:18] And I think that it makes sense. You
[56:21] know, when you are, you know, when
[56:24] you're strength training. And I've heard
[56:25] you talk about this before. You're
[56:26] increasing You're increasing insulin
[56:28] sensitivity. And then that kind of takes
[56:30] a load off of your cells. You're You're
[56:32] decreasing inflammation as well. Your
[56:34] mitochondria are optimally functioning.
[56:36] And when your cells in the dermis are
[56:40] affected by that, uh they're going to
[56:42] work better. They're going to build more
[56:42] collagen. So I
[56:45] I it to me it makes sense. I I would
[56:47] like to see more studies, but but I do
[56:50] really appreciate that.
[56:51] >> I've kind of on my face, I mean I've had
[56:52] a lot of sun damage. And but I I notice
[56:54] like I'm 66 and I look at my skin and
[56:56] the elasticity and my body it it it
[56:59] don't really have a lot of skin aging.
[57:02] Um I notice it's a little bit thinner in
[57:04] some some ways, but you know, I've been
[57:06] eating well my whole life. I've been,
[57:08] you know, exercising my whole life. I've
[57:10] been trying to I mean stress is my
[57:11] thing, but I know I've been taking, you
[57:13] know, basic nutritional supplements. And
[57:15] I
[57:16] and I'm just like kind of amazed at, you
[57:19] know, what what you can do if you
[57:21] actually take care of yourself and you
[57:23] you do the right things. And it's it's
[57:25] something I think it's good to start
[57:27] early. Yeah. But also you can start any
[57:29] age and and slow the process down. And
[57:31] and I'm curious like from your
[57:33] perspective, like what are the highest
[57:34] value interventions for people
[57:36] listening? Like what are the things that
[57:38] you know, for for skin longevity, like
[57:40] what are the highest
[57:42] target
[57:43] >> The highest value
[57:43] >> interventions, yeah.
[57:44] >> So, yeah, I know we we want to talk
[57:46] about how what we can do from the inside
[57:48] out, but I do have to say
[57:50] sun protection is probably the
[57:52] biggest thing you can do.
[57:53] >> The sunblock?
[57:54] >> Yeah, sunscreen, um and like when you're
[57:57] outside
[57:59] you know
[58:00] try to minimize the time you're in
[58:03] you're outside during like those peak UV
[58:05] hours, which is like between 10:00 a.m.
[58:06] and 2:00 p.m.
[58:08] Wearing sun protective clothing, hats,
[58:11] those all play a role. Now,
[58:13] >> Like you need UV blocking clothes?
[58:15] >> You don't need it, but but like but
[58:17] sunscreen's not 100% going to
[58:19] >> But but
[58:20] but can you can you get a like sun
[58:22] damage through your clothes? Like you're
[58:23] in a mouse
[58:24] >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. UV can still
[58:25] penetrate clothes. Not as you know, it's
[58:27] still a form of protection, but but UPF
[58:30] material does a much better job at like
[58:32] blocking out UV rays. So, um just some
[58:35] things to consider and I know that we,
[58:37] you know, also I just want to take into
[58:39] consideration the fact that the sun is
[58:41] really important, too, right? Like for
[58:42] vitamin D absorption, metabolism, as
[58:45] well as like circadian rhythm
[58:47] regulation.
[58:48] >> eyes, yeah.
[58:49] >> Definitely like getting that sun early
[58:50] in the morning, but I think that you can
[58:53] still do all those things. You can go
[58:54] outside, wear sunscreen, don't try to
[58:57] don't try try not to bake outside for
[58:59] prolonged periods of time. That's where
[59:00] we That's where we see a lot of the skin
[59:03] cancer, um
[59:05] and you know, with melanoma, it's for
[59:07] people who have that intermittent
[59:09] prolonged exposure. So, it's
[59:11] interesting.
[59:12] >> When you go to the Bahamas for a holiday
[59:13] and you lay on the beach all day for 7
[59:15] days.
[59:16] >> For men, the most common location for
[59:17] melanoma is the back and for women, it's
[59:19] the legs, but those aren't areas that
[59:21] are seeing the sun every day. But for
[59:23] like those intermittent bursts of sun
[59:24] exposure, like going to the Bahamas and
[59:26] you're just getting like burned on your
[59:28] back, that plays a bigger role with
[59:30] melanoma development. Whereas the
[59:31] non-melanoma skin cancers like basal
[59:33] cell carcinoma or squamous cell
[59:34] carcinoma, those are from just like
[59:35] chronic daily sun exposure that just
[59:38] build up over time. But all of that can
[59:40] contribute to skin cancer um development
[59:43] as well as accelerated aging.
[59:44] >> But not not all melanomas are skin sun
[59:46] exposure related, are they? Aren't are
[59:48] they?
[59:49] >> Well, yeah, you're right, not all cuz we
[59:50] can see melanoma between the toes, we
[59:52] could see anal melanoma.
[59:54] >> That's what I mean, yeah.
[59:54] >> So yeah, so there's other components,
[59:56] too. And what's interesting, too, we
[59:57] have studies to show that low vitamin D
[59:59] can can make melanoma like can put you
[1:00:02] at higher risk for melanoma, which is
[1:00:04] kind of ironic, right? Cuz we say stay
[1:00:06] out of the sun
[1:00:07] to you know, to prevent melanoma.
[1:00:09] >> Yeah.
[1:00:09] >> So it's it's about finding that healthy
[1:00:10] balance. Um
[1:00:12] vitamin D is is important for melanoma
[1:00:14] prevention, too. And you know, that we
[1:00:16] we always talk about supplementation and
[1:00:18] trying to get vitamin D through food,
[1:00:19] but um like I said, you you can still go
[1:00:21] outside, just got to do it responsibly.
[1:00:23] But I'm sorry, to answer your question,
[1:00:25] >> on skin protection? Sun protection.
[1:00:27] >> It is. And it's I mean, we have studies
[1:00:31] to show that it plays the biggest role,
[1:00:32] probably about 80% in when it comes to
[1:00:34] skin aging. There's genetics, but then,
[1:00:37] you know, there's other factors, too. So
[1:00:38] smoking we talked about, thankfully, you
[1:00:40] know, I think people aren't smoking as
[1:00:41] much they people still do smoke, of
[1:00:43] course, but that's huge. Like when they
[1:00:45] look at identical twin studies and like
[1:00:47] they see the twin who's out in the sun
[1:00:49] and smokes, drastic difference.
[1:00:52] >> So that, and then when we talk about
[1:00:54] nutrition, so sugar can accelerate
[1:00:57] aging. I've heard you talk about
[1:00:59] advanced glycation end products or AGEs.
[1:01:02] This is when sugar, you know, when you
[1:01:03] have more sugar, that can bind to your
[1:01:05] collagen fibers, and that can make your
[1:01:08] collagen more brittle and like break
[1:01:09] down more easily and like not remodel as
[1:01:11] well.
[1:01:11] >> Yeah.
[1:01:12] >> So sugar is huge. And then of of course,
[1:01:14] if you have insulin resistance from
[1:01:15] sugar, that's going to create more
[1:01:16] inflammation and further aggravate, you
[1:01:18] know, collagen breakdown. Try to like
[1:01:20] minimize processed foods as well, but
[1:01:22] most of our data is with sugar. And then
[1:01:24] when it comes to what to add, we we
[1:01:26] touched on this briefly, but just like
[1:01:28] just nutrient-dense foods, foods full of
[1:01:30] polyphenols. I just say like just
[1:01:32] colorful foods, you know, like vitamin
[1:01:35] C, your citrus, your
[1:01:37] your bell pepper, like the berries,
[1:01:40] um just things that are full of
[1:01:41] polyphenols is important. And then um
[1:01:45] yeah, and we talked about carotenoids,
[1:01:46] too, whether it it's and also lycopene,
[1:01:49] beta car- beta carotene as well as
[1:01:50] astaxanthin.
[1:01:52] And then sleep is huge. We do have some
[1:01:54] good data to show that poor sleep,
[1:01:57] circadian rhythm disruption, that can
[1:01:58] all accelerate aging.
[1:02:00] Stress is huge, and stress is like
[1:02:02] harder to quantify just cuz, you know,
[1:02:05] like what is stress? Like we all deal
[1:02:06] with so much stress. So um but you know,
[1:02:09] just a matter of
[1:02:11] incorporating stress-decreasing
[1:02:12] modalities into your life. And then
[1:02:14] exercise, we have data to show that that
[1:02:17] helps with skin collagen production.
[1:02:19] Those would And yeah, minimizing
[1:02:21] pollution. I would say those are like
[1:02:23] the the biggest levers um with sun
[1:02:25] protection being the biggest one. And
[1:02:26] then we also have a ton of evidence
[1:02:29] when it when if you just put it in a
[1:02:30] vacuum, like if it's just if you're just
[1:02:32] focusing on skin, topical retinoids, we
[1:02:35] have decades of studies to show the
[1:02:38] impact of topical retinoids for skin
[1:02:39] health.
[1:02:40] >> It's got vitamin A derivative.
[1:02:41] >> Vitamin A derivative, yeah. So the the
[1:02:42] most popular example is retinol, which
[1:02:45] you can get over the counter, and then
[1:02:46] there's the prescription retinoid, which
[1:02:47] is tretinoin, the brand name is Retin-A.
[1:02:50] Those are the most common forms. There's
[1:02:52] retinol, retinaldehyde, tazarotene,
[1:02:54] adapalene. There's a lot. But anyways,
[1:02:55] there's a lot of studies to show that
[1:02:57] that really helps with collagen
[1:02:58] remodeling. And then topical
[1:02:59] antioxidants, vitamin C being the most
[1:03:01] studied example, shows. So after
[1:03:03] sunscreen, we like retinoids and vitamin
[1:03:05] C.
[1:03:05] >> So put vitamin C and ret- and retinoids
[1:03:08] on your skin.
[1:03:09] >> Correct. Yeah, yeah, vitamin C in the
[1:03:11] morning cuz that works alongside
[1:03:12] sunscreen to help with like the
[1:03:15] oxidative stress from the sun as well as
[1:03:17] pollution. And then retinoids at night
[1:03:19] to really contribute to that repair
[1:03:21] process when you're sleeping.
[1:03:22] >> need I need to up my game here cuz I
[1:03:24] I've been focusing on, you know, my
[1:03:26] exercise and diet. And skin care I'm
[1:03:28] like, "Ah, you know, I'm a guy. I don't
[1:03:30] really get care." [laughter]
[1:03:31] >> I mean, if you want to like for overall
[1:03:33] longevity, you got to do all the the
[1:03:34] exercise and diet. Like that's going to
[1:03:35] be better for your overall.
[1:03:37] >> curious about like, you know, I I you
[1:03:38] know,
[1:03:40] I I don't want my skin to age faster
[1:03:42] than it needs to and these seems like
[1:03:44] simple things
[1:03:44] >> These simple
[1:03:45] >> vitamin C and retinoids. And you can do
[1:03:46] the retinol over the counter.
[1:03:48] >> retinol over the counter?
[1:03:49] >> Is that strong enough or
[1:03:50] >> Yeah, it for a lot of people it is. And
[1:03:52] the thing is it's just slower acting.
[1:03:55] Tretinoin is faster acting. You have You
[1:03:57] retinol has to get converted It has to
[1:03:58] go through a couple stages before it
[1:03:59] gets converted to tretinoin. So,
[1:04:02] [snorts] tretinoin works faster. It has
[1:04:04] a higher irritation potential. So,
[1:04:05] people who have sensitive skin or just
[1:04:06] starting out, we do recommend something
[1:04:08] like a retinol.
[1:04:09] Yeah, and then and I would say we have
[1:04:11] the most evidence behind that. I know
[1:04:12] Timeline has their topical like you
[1:04:15] could do topical urolithin A.
[1:04:16] >> Yeah.
[1:04:17] >> Which we do have some studies to show
[1:04:19] that that can help with wrinkle
[1:04:21] reduction as well as increasing
[1:04:22] hydration and barrier repair in the
[1:04:24] skin.
[1:04:26] Um and so, yeah, something else to think
[1:04:28] about, too. There's some supportive
[1:04:29] ingredients in those products like
[1:04:31] there's topical niacinamide. We do have
[1:04:32] some nice data with topical niacinamide
[1:04:34] for barrier repair and wrinkles, too. As
[1:04:37] well as, you know, things like
[1:04:40] hyaluronic acid, ceramides. These are
[1:04:41] like nice hydrating ingredients.
[1:04:43] >> Great. And is it Is it Is it a good
[1:04:45] list? It's a good list of how [laughter]
[1:04:46] to keep your skin healthy. Now, people
[1:04:48] are talking about I just kind of briefly
[1:04:50] want to kind of dive into this, but
[1:04:51] people are talking about a lot of these
[1:04:52] sort of newer therapies where there's
[1:04:54] exosomes, peptides, growth factors, NAD
[1:04:58] products, red light therapy. Can you
[1:05:00] kind of Is it hype? Is it science? Like
[1:05:03] what what's the 80/20 on this stuff?
[1:05:05] >> Yeah, I know. People talk about those a
[1:05:06] lot. I would say don't do that unless
[1:05:09] you're already doing sunscreen,
[1:05:11] retinoids, vitamin C. But yes, screw up
[1:05:14] >> And lifestyle.
[1:05:14] >> And all the lifestyle things that we
[1:05:16] talked about. But yeah, let's I guess
[1:05:18] we'll talk about peptides cuz so many
[1:05:19] people that word is just so popular,
[1:05:21] mainly because of the injectable
[1:05:22] peptides. But
[1:05:25] because the injectable peptides have
[1:05:26] become so popular, topical peptides has
[1:05:28] just gaining so much more buzz, but
[1:05:30] they've been around for decades, too.
[1:05:32] And there are a bunch of different types
[1:05:33] of topical peptides.
[1:05:35] Some are better than others, but in
[1:05:37] general, I am definitely a fan. I think
[1:05:39] it's so easy to incorporate into your
[1:05:41] routine. There's a lot of moisturizers
[1:05:42] that incorporate it, a lot of serums
[1:05:44] that already have it. There's even some
[1:05:45] in some sunscreens. But basically, they
[1:05:47] send signals to your cells to build more
[1:05:49] collagen, or they send signals to your
[1:05:50] cells to increase hydration. So,
[1:05:53] definitely all about peptides.
[1:05:55] >> or like injected? Cuz like GHK-Cu is a
[1:05:57] thing a lot of women are using for their
[1:05:59] skin.
[1:06:00] Is that is that like legit or
[1:06:01] >> I'm sure it it helps, but as of now, we
[1:06:05] don't have the evidence or like the
[1:06:06] safety measures in place to fully
[1:06:08] recommend it. Like Yeah, so I'll say
[1:06:11] that. But we do have topical GHK-Cu, the
[1:06:13] topical copper peptides, which we
[1:06:15] definitely have good evidence for. I
[1:06:17] mean, not as good as retinoids for sure,
[1:06:19] but that helps with collagen recycling
[1:06:20] and rebuilding. So, incorporating copper
[1:06:23] peptides is wonderful into your routine,
[1:06:26] as well as some other like
[1:06:28] hydrating peptides and collagen building
[1:06:29] peptides. And there's also like
[1:06:31] neuromodulating peptides. So, some
[1:06:33] people like to call it like Botox in a
[1:06:35] bottle cuz you know, Botox essentially
[1:06:37] like paralyzes your muscles so you're
[1:06:38] not creating those deeper contractions.
[1:06:41] Super mild form of that with these
[1:06:43] neuropeptides for people who are like
[1:06:46] Botox averse. It doesn't compare to
[1:06:47] Botox, but anyways. So, that's peptides.
[1:06:50] It does Depending on the peptide, you
[1:06:51] could do a lot of different functions in
[1:06:52] the skin. And there's growth factors you
[1:06:54] mentioned. Growth factors are also
[1:06:56] signaling molecules that I think we do
[1:06:58] have some pretty decent evidence for.
[1:07:00] Growth factors are pretty large
[1:07:01] molecules. So,
[1:07:02] so just because you're putting growth
[1:07:04] factors on your skin does not
[1:07:05] necessarily mean I mean, penetrating the
[1:07:06] skin and doing its thing. So, I would
[1:07:08] say you have to make sure you get the
[1:07:09] right growth factors. Not all of them
[1:07:11] are equal. Um but we I do like them. And
[1:07:13] then there's PDRN, which has gained a
[1:07:15] lot of buzz because of the whole K
[1:07:16] beauty Korean beauty kind of
[1:07:19] >> PDRN?
[1:07:19] >> So, PDRN stands for
[1:07:20] polydeoxyribonucleotide
[1:07:23] and it's derived from salmon sperm.
[1:07:25] >> Okay.
[1:07:26] >> [snorts]
[1:07:26] >> And most of the data is with PDRN
[1:07:28] injections into the skin. We we know
[1:07:31] that it helps with collagen remodeling
[1:07:33] when it when it gets into the dermal
[1:07:34] layer. It helps with wound healing.
[1:07:36] Topical PDRN, we have some evidence for
[1:07:39] its efficacy, but doesn't compare as
[1:07:41] much to the injectables. But I I I like
[1:07:43] it. I think it's a wonderful ingredient
[1:07:45] to have in your moisturizer. So, and
[1:07:47] we're seeing more of that.
[1:07:48] >> sperm. Let's go.
[1:07:49] >> Salmon sperm. Salmon sperm facials is
[1:07:51] what we're calling it.
[1:07:52] >> I love that.
[1:07:52] >> What about things like exosomes and stem
[1:07:54] cells? Like people are injecting those
[1:07:55] in their face topically.
[1:07:56] >> Once again, it's one of those areas
[1:07:58] where it's a little bit controversial
[1:08:00] because we do still need more safety
[1:08:02] data. I think it's still kind of the
[1:08:03] wild wild west with that. There are a
[1:08:05] lot of products out there that have
[1:08:07] topical exosomes in them.
[1:08:09] And they are lovely and they seem to
[1:08:11] work, but whether or not the exosomes
[1:08:13] are doing anything or what exactly
[1:08:14] they're doing, it's hard to say because
[1:08:16] it's so hard to stabilize exosomes at
[1:08:18] room temperature. Like you they need to
[1:08:20] be like frozen um at a negative
[1:08:23] temperature.
[1:08:23] >> So, I wonder about these creams or
[1:08:25] >> Yeah, and and also it's like what
[1:08:26] exosomes are the best? Like umbilical
[1:08:28] cord exosomes or like mesenchymal
[1:08:31] exosomes from bone marrow or like fat
[1:08:34] fat cells? Yeah, there's different kinds
[1:08:36] um and that kind of goes along with stem
[1:08:38] cells, too. You know, which ones are the
[1:08:40] best? So, I think we still have more to
[1:08:42] come with that, but
[1:08:44] I think it's promising.
[1:08:45] >> I I I know you've been a dermatologist
[1:08:47] for a long time.
[1:08:48] I can't tell how old you are. I want to
[1:08:50] know your skin routine looks like.
[1:08:52] >> Okay.
[1:08:53] Wait. Wait. Should Should I have you
[1:08:54] guess how old I am?
[1:08:55] >> I kind of would say like maybe late 30s.
[1:08:59] >> Mhm. Yeah, I'm 43.
[1:09:01] >> Yeah.
[1:09:01] >> So, that I'll I'll take that. Thank you.
[1:09:03] But, [clears throat] yeah. So, you know,
[1:09:04] I mentioned the topical skin care
[1:09:05] regimen. I definitely for a while have
[1:09:08] been incorporating sunscreen. I didn't
[1:09:11] for most of my 20s, and it wasn't until
[1:09:13] I started derm residency where I was
[1:09:15] like, oh, okay. I guess I should do
[1:09:17] this.
[1:09:18] Um so, I do sunscreen. I do some type of
[1:09:20] retinoid at night. By the way, you can't
[1:09:22] use a retinoid when you're pregnant. And
[1:09:23] then, um I do vitamin C in the morning.
[1:09:26] But, I do I use I use serums and and
[1:09:29] moisturizers that incorporate peptides
[1:09:31] and or growth factors. I do use a
[1:09:34] product with PDRN and copper peptides. I
[1:09:37] use a serum that has a neuromodulating
[1:09:39] peptide to help soften my lines.
[1:09:42] >> Do these things stack? You just put one
[1:09:43] on after the other?
[1:09:44] >> So, okay. You So, it's so funny because
[1:09:47] I
[1:09:48] I hate overwhelming people because
[1:09:51] there's so much noise out there in the
[1:09:52] skin care world. So, what I tell people
[1:09:54] is really the base the foundational skin
[1:09:58] care regimen is a cleanser. Cuz like
[1:10:00] washing
[1:10:00] >> face is important, too. It's kind of
[1:10:02] under rated.
[1:10:02] >> build up of pollution like all that
[1:10:04] stuff during the day like that
[1:10:06] accelerates skin aging. Those are Those
[1:10:07] are creates oxidative stress on your
[1:10:09] skin. So, washing your face is so
[1:10:10] important. [laughter] And then,
[1:10:12] moisturizing because once again, because
[1:10:14] of the elements, our skin barrier is
[1:10:16] disrupted. Our our keratinocytes are
[1:10:18] working hard to repair the barrier. And
[1:10:20] like if there's stress on our skin, um
[1:10:22] it needs help. So, moisturizer is
[1:10:23] important and then sunscreen. So, those
[1:10:24] are the three
[1:10:26] minimal things to do. And then after
[1:10:28] that, a retinoid and vitamin C. And then
[1:10:30] if that's well established, then you can
[1:10:33] incorporate another serum that might
[1:10:34] have like peptides or growth factors.
[1:10:36] And then like just find a good
[1:10:37] moisturizer that has all the fun things
[1:10:39] that has growth factors and peptides,
[1:10:40] too.
[1:10:41] >> Yeah, that's good. I mean, just kind of
[1:10:43] a a brief aside cuz I think this is an
[1:10:44] issue for for
[1:10:46] for me. I think about this, which is
[1:10:48] what's in the skin care products besides
[1:10:50] the active ingredients, and are those
[1:10:52] harmful? And I had a I had a patient
[1:10:54] once who used sunblock all the time.
[1:10:56] >> Mhm. I checked her urine, she had
[1:10:58] extremely high levels of parabens where
[1:11:00] which is a plastic like a petrochemical
[1:11:03] toxin that they use in these compounds.
[1:11:06] So, you're fixing one thing and hurting
[1:11:07] another thing. And how do you How do you
[1:11:09] manage that? And and And what do you
[1:11:11] think of the Skin Deep uh database from
[1:11:13] Environmental Working Group that kind of
[1:11:15] grades skin care products based on the
[1:11:17] levels of toxins in them?
[1:11:18] >> I respect the fact that something like
[1:11:20] this exists out there. I do take it with
[1:11:23] a grain of salt because
[1:11:25] the data that's in the EWG database is
[1:11:28] from studies where there are usually
[1:11:31] like insanely almost impractical doses,
[1:11:35] insanely high amounts of these products
[1:11:36] or ingredients that are used on like
[1:11:38] animal models. And we can see issues in
[1:11:41] animal models, whether it's endocrine
[1:11:42] disrupting issues,
[1:11:44] uh potentially cancer, you know, and and
[1:11:48] it's it's
[1:11:50] hard to extrapolate that to human data
[1:11:52] for a lot of these things, for things
[1:11:54] like parabens and like um even like some
[1:11:56] of these chemical sunscreens, too. And
[1:12:00] and so,
[1:12:02] I think like theoretically it seems
[1:12:03] scary like, "Oh my god, when it's given
[1:12:05] an insanely high doses to animals, like
[1:12:07] we should not do that. We shouldn't use
[1:12:09] it as humans."
[1:12:10] But,
[1:12:11] I wouldn't you know, if people have been
[1:12:12] using a lot of these products, I
[1:12:13] wouldn't freak out like
[1:12:15] just because somebody has a bunch of
[1:12:17] parabens in their urine, the question
[1:12:20] is, "Okay, what But, what exactly like
[1:12:22] what is How is that manifesting in their
[1:12:24] skin?"
[1:12:25] >> my my philosophy and maybe this is right
[1:12:27] or wrong, I don't know, but if you
[1:12:29] wouldn't eat it, don't put it on your
[1:12:30] skin cuz everything you put on your skin
[1:12:31] gets absorbed through your skin.
[1:12:33] >> Okay, so I have something to say to
[1:12:34] that. I have something to [laughter] say
[1:12:35] to that because our skin is all
[1:12:38] honestly, our skin does serve as a great
[1:12:40] barrier. Like it's one of the functions
[1:12:42] of the skin is to protect our our body
[1:12:44] from like the outside elements, from
[1:12:46] pathogens, from irritants, and all those
[1:12:47] things. So, there is an element of
[1:12:49] really good barrier protection on the
[1:12:50] skin. But, the other thing I want to
[1:12:52] add, too is that not necessarily
[1:12:53] everything you eat is good for your
[1:12:55] skin.
[1:12:55] >> This is true.
[1:12:56] >> Like lemon. Like lemon will destroy your
[1:12:58] skin. Yes.
[1:12:59] >> Lemon juice, lemon juice?
[1:13:01] >> Lemon can Yeah, lemon can cause like
[1:13:02] irritation from the acids in the skin. I
[1:13:04] mean, we have stomach acids that can
[1:13:06] that can deal with that.
[1:13:07] >> putting lemon on your skin or eating
[1:13:09] lemon?
[1:13:09] >> So, eating lemon is good.
[1:13:10] >> Oh, eating lemon.
[1:13:11] >> Putting lemon on your skin is not good.
[1:13:13] >> do that. Yeah, yeah.
[1:13:14] >> Yeah, [laughter] so so there's there's
[1:13:15] like
[1:13:16] so but yes.
[1:13:17] >> want to put chili peppers on your face,
[1:13:18] you know.
[1:13:18] >> Right, exactly. Exactly. But no But I I
[1:13:21] I do appreciate you saying that. Like we
[1:13:23] have to be you know,
[1:13:25] if we can eat it like
[1:13:27] then you know, it it's potentially safe
[1:13:29] for our skin. But I I also want people
[1:13:31] to know that our skin is there to
[1:13:32] protect us too. And like a lot of these
[1:13:34] things usually just penetrate to the
[1:13:36] through the epidermis, not really
[1:13:37] getting to our vasculature. Of course,
[1:13:38] there's things that get into our
[1:13:40] vasculature as well. But our skin I
[1:13:41] would give it more credit. It really
[1:13:42] does do a good job at keeping a lot of
[1:13:44] the things out. I'll say that I'll say
[1:13:46] that. But but yes, there are definitely
[1:13:47] things that that can get absorbed that
[1:13:49] aren't
[1:13:50] >> I mean, because I always wonder about it
[1:13:51] cuz I mean, as a doctor, I'm like when
[1:13:53] you someone comes to the emergency room
[1:13:54] with a heart attack, you put
[1:13:55] nitroglycerin paste on their chest when
[1:13:56] someone has a
[1:13:57] >> Yeah, there's topical estrogen.
[1:13:58] >> topical hormones. You've got
[1:14:01] you know, all these topical drugs that
[1:14:03] we deliver through the skin, whether
[1:14:04] it's fentanyl patches or like it's it's
[1:14:07] a known thing.
[1:14:08] >> It is a known thing. Yes.
[1:14:09] >> So, like it's not like they don't get
[1:14:11] through.
[1:14:11] >> No, for sure. And there's certain
[1:14:13] vehicles that deliver these things more
[1:14:15] effectively than others.
[1:14:17] So, so it's it's a matter of like what
[1:14:20] the product is. But yeah, no, for sure.
[1:14:22] Like things definitely can get absorbed
[1:14:23] through the
[1:14:23] >> So, if we have a choice between
[1:14:24] something that doesn't have a lot of bad
[1:14:27] you know, industrial ingredients in it
[1:14:28] versus something that does, would you
[1:14:30] choose the one that doesn't or you don't
[1:14:32] care? Of course, I would want to look at
[1:14:33] the safety data behind it too. But but I
[1:14:36] would try to minimize like anything that
[1:14:38] has this like toxic burden to the skin
[1:14:40] for sure. Yeah. Okay, good. I I
[1:14:43] I think you're right. There's probably
[1:14:44] not enough data like what happens when
[1:14:46] you put all these things on. But like
[1:14:47] just like at a high level like I wonder
[1:14:49] if anybody's done the studies to see if
[1:14:50] you put this stuff on your skin and
[1:14:51] measure the blood levels or urine levels
[1:14:53] of these compounds. Has anybody done
[1:14:55] that work?
[1:14:55] >> Yeah, I mean I think that that some of
[1:14:57] it has been looked at too. Like we have
[1:14:59] we do see higher absorption with
[1:15:01] chemical sunscreens in our bloodstream.
[1:15:03] >> So it's better use mineral sunscreens
[1:15:05] then?
[1:15:05] >> So [laughter]
[1:15:06] yeah, I mean if if that sort of freaks
[1:15:08] you out then yes, I would use mineral
[1:15:10] sunscreen. Um
[1:15:12] the FDA s- kind of put that in the
[1:15:14] category of generally recognized as safe
[1:15:17] whereas the chemical sunscreens is not
[1:15:18] in that category mainly because you do
[1:15:20] have extensive systemic absorption with
[1:15:22] it. Whether or not that does anything is
[1:15:24] is just still up for debate. So
[1:15:26] >> Wait, are you saying that the FDA says
[1:15:28] that that these chemical sunscreens are
[1:15:30] not generally recognized as safe?
[1:15:32] >> That's right.
[1:15:32] >> Wow.
[1:15:33] >> But there's a new one that just came out
[1:15:34] this past year that is that's it's BEMT
[1:15:37] parcel shield is another name for it
[1:15:39] that is it's a chemical sunscreen that
[1:15:40] is lumped with generally recognized as
[1:15:42] safe. But yeah, no, we need some work
[1:15:44] with the chemical sunscreens.
[1:15:45] >> Really?
[1:15:46] >> But but
[1:15:47] I have to tell people they're still
[1:15:49] effective. They're still overall safe.
[1:15:51] We don't have the human data to show
[1:15:52] that it does anything, but it does
[1:15:54] absorb more into your bloodstream.
[1:15:55] >> This is such a great conversation. Are
[1:15:58] you up for a few rapid fire questions?
[1:16:00] >> Okay. So what's the biggest driver of
[1:16:02] premature skin aging?
[1:16:03] >> UV radiation.
[1:16:04] >> Sun, okay.
[1:16:04] >> Yeah, the sun.
[1:16:05] >> Can you take age skin and actually
[1:16:07] improve it or not?
[1:16:08] >> Can Yes, you can. There's hope. There's
[1:16:10] hope.
[1:16:10] >> What matters more for skin health? Is it
[1:16:13] in longevity, skin care, or exercise?
[1:16:15] >> It depends on what your goals are. If
[1:16:16] you want to live longer, I would say
[1:16:17] exercise. If you want your skin to look
[1:16:19] smooth and wrinkle-free, skin care.
[1:16:21] >> How about mitochondria? How important is
[1:16:23] that on a scale of 1 to 10?
[1:16:24] >> Mitochondria Oh,
[1:16:26] at least a nine. There's Cuz there's a
[1:16:28] lot of other factors that also
[1:16:29] contribute to aging, too.
[1:16:32] Um it's not just mitochondria. We we
[1:16:34] need
[1:16:35] >> And and urolithin A, is the data there
[1:16:36] or not?
[1:16:37] >> Urolithin A Yeah, I would say we have
[1:16:38] really good data with urolithin A.
[1:16:40] >> Amazing. Okay. And then what's the most
[1:16:42] overrated anti-aging
[1:16:44] skin care trend?
[1:16:46] >> Okay, so there's like products that are
[1:16:48] trending
[1:16:48] >> trends that people be like, wait.
[1:16:50] >> there's a couple of things. Like a lot
[1:16:51] of people are into like beef tallow, and
[1:16:54] they think that that protects their skin
[1:16:55] from the sun. That's no, it does not.
[1:16:57] It's an okay moisturizer, but it's not
[1:16:59] anything miraculous. We have a lot
[1:17:01] better moisturizers out there.
[1:17:02] >> Beef fat on your skin, [clears throat]
[1:17:03] not a thing.
[1:17:03] >> It's It's Yeah, it's it's fine.
[1:17:05] >> really use coconut oil as like
[1:17:07] >> Coconut oil can be helpful. It is
[1:17:08] comedogenic, so be careful if you're
[1:17:10] acne-prone, but but um beef tallow is
[1:17:12] also comedogenic as well. But people
[1:17:14] think it's like a miracle cure, and it's
[1:17:16] not.
[1:17:17] >> Amazing. Okay. Wow. Well, thank you so
[1:17:20] much um for your insights, your work,
[1:17:23] your your advocacy, cuz there aren't
[1:17:25] enough, I would say, integrated
[1:17:26] functional dermatologists out there.
[1:17:28] >> Yeah.
[1:17:29] >> aren't. And uh I had the privilege of
[1:17:30] learning from some of the OG ones, you
[1:17:33] know, back in the day. And uh and I
[1:17:35] think that, you know, if you're
[1:17:36] listening this, you know, there's really
[1:17:38] two issues. One is healthy skin aging,
[1:17:40] and two is skin conditions.
[1:17:42] And there's a lot to do about both of
[1:17:43] them. And hopefully,
[1:17:45] you know, we can really uh help people
[1:17:47] understand what they can do. Tell us
[1:17:49] where people can learn more about you,
[1:17:51] find you, learn about your work.
[1:17:52] >> I I'm very active on social media. My
[1:17:55] handle is uh doctor.mamina, dr.mamina,
[1:17:58] on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. I
[1:18:00] have a website, doctormamina.com.
[1:18:03] And if you're also interested in
[1:18:04] prescription skin care, I'm a co-founder
[1:18:06] with other derms for a prescription skin
[1:18:08] care service called Dermy Doc.
[1:18:09] >> Amazing. Dermy Doc. All right. Well, so
[1:18:11] good to meet you and have you on the
[1:18:12] podcast, and thanks [music] for your
[1:18:13] work.
[1:18:14] >> Thank you so much for having me.
[1:18:15] >> Hey everybody, it's Dr. Mark Hyman. I'm
[1:18:17] so excited to share that my new book is
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