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Inspiration

The Art of Being Yourself: Mercy, Honesty, and Freedom

Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert
Jul 24, 2019
8 min read
Watch · 7

Elizabeth Gilbert doesn't think of herself as primarily a writer. This statement might land like a koan in a room full of readers, but it's the hinge upon which her entire worldview turns. On a sunlit afternoon in Chase Jarvis's studio, she sits across from the photographer-turned-podcast-host with the ease of someone who has learned, through decades of internal excavation, that the masks we wear for the world are not who we are. The bestselling author of Eat, Pray, Love—the memoir that sold over 12 million copies and became a Julia Roberts film—speaks about her new novel, City of Girls, but the real conversation is about something far more foundational: how a person actually becomes themselves.

"Mental health is my full-time job," she tells Jarvis matter-of-factly. "Writing, and being a professional creator, is a hobby."

The inversion stuns because it contradicts everything we've been told about genius, productivity, and the life of the mind. We assume that the person who writes a 12-million-copy bestseller is, by definition, someone for whom writing is the job. But Gilbert has spent her life learning that the foundation—the actual structural integrity of everything you make—is not found in the work itself. It is found in the interior architecture: in self-awareness, in the willingness to know yourself, in the refusal to pretend that pain isn't real.

Read · 7 sections

Why subvert the ruined woman narrative?

This philosophy crystallizes in City of Girls, her fourth novel and a deliberate palate cleanser from the long literary tradition of ruined women. The book is set in New York City during the 1940s, in the theater world, and it tells the story of a young woman who behaves "really recklessly with their sexuality and not being ruined by it," as Gilbert describes it. This is not an easy book to find, she notes, because "all those books—Anna Karenina, all the Henry James books, Emma Bovary, Hedda Gabler—there's this whole history of books about ruined women, ending in disgrace because they dared to have sensual desire." One orgasm, and you're under the wheels of the train. Gilbert wanted to write something else entirely: "a book celebrating how you can do very stupid and reckless sensual things and actually survive yourself and turn into a really interesting, seasoned older woman."

The novel is, on its surface, about sexuality and freedom. But it is, at its core, about becoming yourself. "How do you become yourself?" Gilbert asks. "That's also what the book is about."

What made the 1940s such a pivotal moment for women?

The setting is not arbitrary. It was a moment in New York—and in women's lives—that felt uniquely open. The men were at war. The rules that governed female behavior, the unspoken mores that kept women off the streets after dark unless they were on the arm of a respectable man, simply evaporated. "When the men left, so did the mores," Gilbert observes. Women were working, earning good money, and for a brief, shimmering interval, they could exist without the constant friction of social expectation. There is a line in the novel where one character reflects: "When women are together with no men around, a woman doesn't have to be this thing or that thing. She can just be."

This "just be" philosophy is aspirational—not because it's unusual, but because it's so rare. "How many free people do you know? Like, truly free?" Gilbert asks Jarvis. "Me neither." Freedom, in her lexicon, is not about external circumstances. It's about the interior permission to stop performing, to stop managing your image, to stop trying to be the thing that others need you to be. It's the foundational work that allows everything else to follow.

How does honesty become the portal through pain?

This is where the mental health maxim becomes clear. Because you cannot write—cannot create anything authentic—if you are not doing the internal work of knowing yourself, of examining the stories you tell yourself, of being willing to look at the parts of your life that hurt. "The only way out of pain is through honesty," Gilbert says, and the words land with the weight of experience. She is not theorizing. She has walked this path.

In 2018, her longtime partner, Rayya Elias, died of cancer. The grief that followed was not a detour from her creative life. It was the curriculum. Gilbert found that creativity and writing became tools to slow the mind during the hardest times—not to escape the pain, but to move through it with consciousness. "It actually feels like pain," she says of the writing process during grief. The work became a way to honor both the love that preceded the loss and the loss itself.

This experience deepened her conviction that mercy—compassion, gentleness toward yourself—is the foundation of any creative endeavor. "I can put myself in compassionate alignment with myself," she says, and this small phrase contains an entire cosmology. It means treating yourself the way you would treat someone you love when they are suffering. It means not abandoning yourself in the hardest moments. It means recognizing, as she does, that even the most accomplished person needs to know: "You are precious unto me."

When did the real work actually begin?

The curious detail that emerges from Gilbert's narrative is that this way of thinking did not arise from Eat, Pray, Love—that famous memoir of travel and self-discovery. It emerged before it. Years before she wrote that book, she was already doing the foundational work, already treating her inner life as the primary job. The book was merely the spillover, the artifact of a life that was already organized around deeper principles. This is a reversal of the typical story we tell about success: that you do the work, and then you figure out who you are. Gilbert suggests something more radical: that you have to know who you are—continuously, relentlessly—and then the work comes from that clarity.

What does one percent of curiosity actually change?

What animates this approach is not grim self-interrogation but curiosity. "I'm 1% more curious than I am afraid," she says. This tiny ratio—one percent—is the margin in which all possibility lives. It's enough to lean toward the unknown, to ask the next question, to not shut down when things get hard. Curiosity doesn't promise safety or comfort. It promises engagement. It promises that your life will be interesting.

And it promises that you won't get trapped in the fantasy that completion brings fulfillment. "The most thrilled that you're gonna feel when you make something is day one of making it," Gilbert observes. Not day of completion. Not the moment of publication or praise. Day one, when the thing is still nascent, still full of possibility, still unmolded by anyone else's expectations. Once you understand this—once you give up the fantasy that finishing something will make you happy—you free yourself to make things for a different reason: because the making itself is the point.

What does a life oriented this way actually look like?

This is not a message that sits comfortably in a world organized around hustle, productivity metrics, and the constant pressure to monetize your gifts. But it's also not a message about retreat. It's a message about priorities. If you are not tending to your own internal weather, if you are not doing the work of knowing yourself and moving through your pain with honesty, then you are not free—no matter how many books you publish or how many millions of people read them. Freedom, as Gilbert lives it, is an interior achievement. Everything else is the hobby.

Where to go from here

If Gilbert's framework resonates, the natural next step is to reorient your relationship with your own creative work. Begin by examining: What are you telling yourself about your mental health? Is it truly a priority, or is it something you squeeze in around the edges of "more important" work? The invitation is not to abandon productivity but to invert it—to treat your interior life as the primary job, and let everything else flow from that clarity.

Read City of Girls with attention to the philosophy beneath the plot. Gilbert writes that "if you want to know who I am, read it," and she means this as an invitation to use fiction as a lens for understanding yourself. The novel becomes a mirror, not just a story.

Practice the principle of mercy in a concrete way: Pick one area where you're hardest on yourself and ask what it would feel like to treat that part of yourself the way you'd treat a suffering friend. This small shift in self-alignment can ripple outward into your creative work in surprising ways.

Finally, cultivate that one percent of curiosity. In moments when you're afraid to begin something, afraid to fail, or afraid to be honest about what you're feeling, ask yourself: Can I be just 1% more curious than afraid? That tiny margin is where all real creativity lives.

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Transcript

[0:00] - Hey everybody, what's up?

[0:01] It's Chase.

[0:02] Welcome to another episode of The Chase Jarvis Live Show

[0:03] here on CreativeLive.

[0:04] You all know this show.

[0:05] This is where I sit down with the best humans in the world

[0:07] and I do everything I can to unpack their brains

[0:09] with the goal of helping you live your dreams

[0:11] whether that's in career and hobby or in life.

[0:14] My guest today you will recognize her immediately

[0:17] when I say the first thing out of my mouth which is,

[0:19] she wrote "Eat, Pray, Love" a considerable time ago.

[0:23] Then, she was named one of

[0:24] the Most 100 Influential People in the World

[0:27] by Time Magazine.

[0:28] We're here today to talk about creativity,

[0:30] to talk about building and living on a life that you love,

[0:33] and her new book called "City of Girls."

[0:34] My guest is the inimitable, Elizabeth Gilbert.

[0:37] Welcome to the show. - Hi Chase.

[0:39] (upbeat music)

[0:50] (applause)

[0:53] - [Offcamera Audience Member] They love you.

[0:54] - Hi.

[0:55] - That was a very dramatic introduction.

[0:56] - Ta-da!

[0:57] - It was like, (makes jazzy intro sounds)

[0:59] Let's put on a show!

[1:02] Thank you for having me in.

[1:03] - Thank you so much, congrats on your new book.

[1:05] - Thank you.

[1:06] - A novel.

[1:07] - A novel, yeah.

[1:07] Yeah, that's my roots.

[1:09] - I know it, no.

[1:10] - Yeah, it's funny 'cause I think it's very cute

[1:12] when people come up to me and they say,

[1:13] "I loved your first book so much."

[1:15] And I'm like, "I don't think you loved my

[1:18] "tiny, obscure collection of literary short stories

[1:20] "that I published in 1995. (laughs)

[1:22] "I think you're thinking - You're really thinking,

[1:24] like my third book. - "about 'Eat, Pray, Love.'"

[1:25] You're thinking of (mumbles).

[1:26] But I did get my start in fiction

[1:27] and this is my fourth work of fiction.

[1:31] I love it, it's so fun for me.

[1:32] It's my home.

[1:34] - Did you feel like you went back to it

[1:37] or was it just always,

[1:38] and is it fair to say your wrote a non-fiction book

[1:42] about creativity last time for just...

[1:44] Was that the deviation and your roots and line?

[1:47] - I guess it's just like project to project.

[1:50] I don't know, I just follow the magnet in the sky

[1:53] that tells me what the next thing to do is.

[1:56] And I don't overthink it too much about what the genre is.

[2:00] What is the story that I wanna tell?

[2:02] What is the best form in which to tell it?

[2:03] And this is a novel about promiscuous girls,

[2:06] which is a story I've wanted to tell for a long time.

[2:08] It's set in New York City

[2:09] in the 1940's in the theater world.

[2:11] But, it's really a book about

[2:14] girls behaving really recklessly with their sexuality

[2:17] and not being ruined by it,

[2:18] which is not an easy book to find

[2:20] in the annals of Western history.

[2:22] Because normally, - Yeah.

[2:24] - the sensual girls

[2:24] are ruined. - Did you write this

[2:25] as an antidote to all? - I did.

[2:26] - Okay, interesting. - Yeah.

[2:28] It's like a palate cleanser from "Anne Karenina." (laughs)

[2:30] It's like, "Guess what?"

[2:32] 'Cause I feel like all those books are...

[2:34] I love all those books, "Anna Karenina"

[2:35] and all the Henry James books

[2:38] and Emma Bovary and Hedda Gabler.

[2:40] And there's this whole history of books

[2:41] about ruined women,

[2:43] ending in disgrace because they dared

[2:45] to have sensual desire.

[2:46] And I'm like, "So unfair."

[2:48] It's like, one orgasm and then

[2:50] you're under the wheels of the train, you know?

[2:51] So I wanted to write a book celebrating

[2:54] how you can do very stupid and reckless

[2:57] sensual things and actually survive yourself

[2:59] and turn into a really interesting,

[3:01] seasoned older woman, which is

[3:03] what this book's about.

[3:04] - Can we make logical extensions from that?

[3:07] Or is it just about sexuality?

[3:08] What's your point here?

[3:09] Is it just the sexuality part?

[3:11] - It's...

[3:12] How do you become yourself?

[3:14] That's also what the book is about.

[3:16] - [Chase] Yeah. - You know, it's about

[3:17] a young girl moving to New York

[3:17] in 1940, when she's 19.

[3:20] - [Chase] After failing out of college?

[3:21] - After dropping out of college.

[3:23] I moved to New York in 1986 when I was 19,

[3:25] not to drop out of college.

[3:26] But, I know the feeling of being

[3:29] young, hungry, yearning, craving.

[3:31] And wanting to know, where are my people?

[3:32] Where is my tribe and where am I gonna go

[3:34] to become this thing that I wanna be,

[3:36] and I don't even know what it is yet?

[3:38] But I'm drawn, somehow, to this metropolis

[3:40] or that metropolis or this answer or that answer.

[3:42] So, it's a coming-of-age book as well.

[3:44] - There's a line in there

[3:47] and I might get one or two words wrong,

[3:48] but it was remarkable to me.

[3:51] "You can only move to New York

[3:53] "as a young woman once."

[3:55] - Yeah.

[3:56] You just get to move to New York

[3:57] for the first time in your life

[3:58] once in your life. (laughs)

[4:00] And, it's a big deal. - [Chase] Yeah.

[4:01] It's a big, big deal.

[4:02] - So, what parts of the book are

[4:09] memoir-driven? - [Elizabeth] Yeah.

[4:11] - And, is it just weaving in and out of your life?

[4:14] Or, is it specifically fiction?

[4:17] - It's fiction because it's a novel but

[4:20] if you want to know who I am, read it.

[4:23] That's what I would say about all of my novels.

[4:25] Because there's an adage and I think it's wise and true,

[4:29] that if you wanna write an honest memoir,

[4:30] write a novel.

[4:31] And the reason is, you're not

[4:33] protecting yourself from anything.

[4:35] So you get to actually tell,

[4:38] if not the actual letter of the lost story,

[4:40] the feeling.

[4:41] This book was about what it felt like for me

[4:44] to be in my twenties.

[4:45] It doesn't matter that it's in the 1940's

[4:47] and they're both showgirls

[4:48] in the New York City theater world.

[4:49] It's, I know what that feels like to be that girl.

[4:52] And that's something that I wanted

[4:54] to revisit and recreate.

[4:55] - Why that as the backdrop?

[4:57] Was that because it was a time where

[5:00] all of these things were more taboo?

[5:02] Or, why did you choose?

[5:03] And the theaters and the theater world, Vivian.

[5:06] Actually, I probably shouldn't say too much

[5:07] about the book 'cause you should go read it.

[5:09] But, she moves to New York and she gets

[5:10] rubbed up in the theater world

[5:12] because of her Aunt Peg.

[5:13] Is it theater and creativity because that

[5:16] connotes a specific something that

[5:18] you wanted about the character?

[5:20] Give me your thoughts.

[5:21] - You know, you're on it.

[5:22] You got it.

[5:23] I mean, first of all, it's New York City in the 1940's.

[5:25] And that to me, just feels like

[5:26] the most impossibly glamorous moment

[5:28] of my city's history.

[5:31] I love the New York that I moved to,

[5:32] but there's always a shadow of a New York

[5:34] that used to be there

[5:35] that I've always been fascinated with.

[5:37] So, New York during the war is a really

[5:39] moment for me, it's also a really

[5:41] interesting moment for women in New York.

[5:42] Particularly, because they were working.

[5:44] The men were all gone.

[5:45] And so, all these social mores that had existed

[5:48] that were were really limiting to women,

[5:49] were gone.

[5:50] When the men left, so did the mores.

[5:53] So there used to be rules like,

[5:54] a respectable girl cannot walk down the street

[5:56] after a certain time of evening,

[5:58] if she's not on the arm of a respectable man.

[6:00] Well, there weren't any then.

[6:02] So all of a sudden, these women were free.

[6:04] And they had jobs working in the naval yard

[6:06] and they were earning good money.

[6:07] And there was just this moment

[6:09] of freedom and opening, it closed after that.

[6:11] The '50s came, the men came back.

[6:14] And the women - [Chase] McCarthyism, yeah.

[6:14] - were sent back home,

[6:15] to wear big dresses and pearls

[6:17] and wait for their husbands to come home.

[6:18] But, there was this period during the war.

[6:20] And there's a line in the book where Vivian says,

[6:22] "One thing that I learned with my girlfriends,

[6:24] "was that when women are together with no men around,

[6:27] "a woman doesn't have to be this thing or that thing.

[6:29] "She can just be."

[6:30] And I feel like New York in the '40s was a time

[6:32] when there were a lot of women

[6:33] who could just be.

[6:34] And that's an aspirational thing for me, too.

[6:37] What would it be like to be a woman

[6:38] who could just be?

[6:38] - Just be.

[6:39] - Just be.

[6:40] Not have to be a thing, just be.

[6:42] - And does that come out of,

[6:45] going back to the comment earlier

[6:48] about this being an antidote,

[6:50] is implicit in that...

[6:52] That in this book, you can just be.

[6:55] Is that also antidotal to

[6:59] the world that we're in today?

[7:01] Where, we have to be,

[7:03] you know, you can list a long list of things

[7:05] of what we're supposed to be.

[7:06] And we're supposed to dress like and look like

[7:08] and wear and talk and walk?

[7:10] - How many free people do you know?

[7:12] Like, truly free?

[7:13] - [Chase] Very few.

[7:14] - Yeah, me neither.

[7:15] - And how many relaxed people do you know?

[7:18] - Also, very few.

[7:19] - How many relaxed women have you ever met

[7:20] in your entire life?

[7:22] - Handful.

[7:23] - Yeah. (laughs)

[7:24] Right?

[7:25] That's what I'm into.

[7:27] What would it be?

[7:28] And this is the question that I'm living

[7:29] into my own life as well.

[7:31] I think the most revolutionary thing

[7:35] that a woman could be, in this world or any,

[7:37] is relaxed.

[7:39] So, my book is largely about a woman becoming that.

[7:42] I think, if you're gonna meet one, ever,

[7:45] she's likely to be older.

[7:47] Considerably older, where it just gets to point

[7:48] where they're like, "Oh, fuck it." (laughs)

[7:50] - (laughs)

[7:52] - "I just can't anymore.

[7:53] "You know, like I used to, eh, I can't."

[7:56] You know, there's a certain age that a woman will get to.

[7:57] And I feel like I'm on the brink of it,

[7:59] but I'm not quite there yet.

[8:00] But my greatest aspiration, aside from being...

[8:04] My really greatest aspiration,

[8:05] which is to be love in every room that I'm in.

[8:08] My other aspiration is to be

[8:10] the most relaxed person in every room that I'm in.

[8:12] - [Chase] Wow. - And to actually

[8:14] show women what it might look like to be at ease. (laughs)

[8:18] - Is that a response to an earlier

[8:20] and different time in your life?

[8:22] - Well, I've been a really high-vibrationally

[8:24] anxious person my whole life.

[8:25] But I also see that everyone is.

[8:28] And this is also a moment in history where I think

[8:31] anxiety is nearly universal.

[8:33] - It's just peak. - Peak.

[8:35] Everywhere in the world, everywhere in the world.

[8:37] I mean, it's a product of westernization.

[8:39] And it's a product of, like when I first went to Bali

[8:41] 15, 20 years ago, it wasn't like that.

[8:44] I'm there now, Balinese people are stressed now.

[8:46] I was like, "We have exported this.

[8:47] "It's a fucking virus."

[8:48] Stress is this virus that has somehow

[8:52] colonized the world and it's killing everybody.

[8:54] And there's really, really good

[8:56] empirical reason for it.

[8:57] I mean, we are in the approaching Armageddon.

[9:00] Welcome to the catastrophe

[9:01] of a dying planet. - Yeah, my God.

[9:02] - And the dumpster fire that is politics.

[9:04] All of that is true.

[9:06] And if you walk around in this world

[9:07] as every in a woman's body, that's all heightened.

[9:09] 'Cause you're always sort of in a sense of danger.

[9:13] And yet, there's some stubborn part of me that's like,

[9:15] "Yeah, but what if I just didn't

[9:17] "drink your anxiety lemonade?

[9:20] "And what if I found my own way to be in my own skin,

[9:25] "where I was okay always, no matter what?

[9:27] "Wouldn't that be somethin'?" (laughs)

[9:30] - [Elizabeth] Wouldn't that actually

[9:31] really be somethin'?

[9:33] - How's that going?

[9:33] - It's going better than it's ever gone in my life.

[9:36] - We're meeting today for the first time.

[9:38] You greeted me with a huge hug,

[9:40] we've been friends for a long time.

[9:42] Is that part of the universe

[9:44] that you're trying to lean into?

[9:46] - I mean, that's kinda just - Is that just natural?

[9:47] - what I'm... - Me, too.

[9:48] - I'm like, basically golden retriever. (laughs)

[9:49] - (laughs)

[9:51] I've been described as that, so we're the same.

[9:53] And we share the same birthday.

[9:54] We just figured that out. - I know,

[9:54] we're super - Yes, it's right.

[9:56] - That's right. - sensitive Cancerians.

[9:56] We just wish everyone would be

[9:57] in a pile together on the floor.

[9:58] So, that's my nature. - [Chase] (laughs)

[10:01] - Why is everyone not hugging

[10:03] all the time? - [Chase] That's right.

[10:04] - But, that's my nature.

[10:05] But to feel comfortable and relaxed,

[10:09] it takes a lot of really radical,

[10:11] it's an interesting pathway.

[10:13] It takes foundational, unbelievable honesty.

[10:17] You have to kind of be telling the truth all the time.

[10:21] Which is weird, because you think that wouldn't be relaxing.

[10:24] But what it does in the end,

[10:25] is it gives you a lot more time and space

[10:27] to not be doing the hustle.

[10:32] That's a line I'm guided by,

[10:34] is that grace can take you places

[10:35] where hustling can't.

[10:37] And at the center of grace,

[10:39] is just this integrity of great truth-telling.

[10:42] This isn't working for me, this thing,

[10:44] this situation, say no.

[10:46] But saying it just like, "It's okay."

[10:48] It's like, "Yeah, you can ask, but no." (laughs)

[10:51] I spend most of my day saying no.

[10:53] That's a large part of me,

[10:54] learning how to be relaxed.

[10:56] Just say, "Nope."

[10:57] - When you're talking truth,

[11:01] is that truth to yourself?

[11:03] Is that truth to other, presumably it's both,

[11:05] but to what degree did this start to take shape?

[11:10] Is it what you realized, that you were

[11:12] a better self when you started talking truth

[11:15] to yourself first?

[11:16] And then manifest itself outwardly?

[11:18] Or was it, you had to start being really

[11:21] honest with people about external commitments

[11:23] and that gave you the space and the freedom

[11:24] to get internal?

[11:26] - Well, you should definitely try to have

[11:29] a completely honest relationship

[11:31] with at least one person in your life.

[11:32] And probably best if it's yourself. (laughs)

[11:35] It's a good place to start.

[11:39] I can't speak anybody else's truth.

[11:41] I was guided by this,

[11:44] really schooled in this, intimately for years

[11:46] in my relationship with my partner Rayya,

[11:49] who died a year and a half ago.

[11:51] Before we were together as a couple,

[11:52] we were best friends and she had been

[11:54] a heroin addict and a speedball junkie

[11:57] on the Lower East Side,

[11:59] in Rikers Island and years

[12:01] living on the streets and prisons.

[12:03] She'd just had this really horrific, brutal early life.

[12:06] And she ended up, astonishingly, getting clean

[12:09] and staying clean for 19 years.

[12:13] And her path to that was, of course, truth-telling,

[12:15] which is the cure for addiction.

[12:16] Not cure, but treatment.

[12:19] And she embodied it in this really remarkable way.

[12:22] And she had an adage.

[12:24] And she was the person in the world

[12:25] I was always most relaxed around

[12:26] because she only every told the truth.

[12:27] She always knew where you were.

[12:30] We never had to guess.

[12:31] And everyone in the room was safe,

[12:32] 'cause Rayya was always telling the truth.

[12:34] Whatever bullshit else was going on,

[12:36] there was one center of very dense

[12:39] gravitational truth-telling always happening.

[12:42] But the line that she lived by,

[12:43] and she passed it to me.

[12:45] And now, I live by it because I can't not,

[12:47] is she used to say, "The truth has legs.

[12:51] "It's the only thing that's gonna be left

[12:52] "standing in the room at the end of the day."

[12:54] Everything else will blow up,

[12:55] everything else will disintegrate,

[12:56] everything else will dissolve into drama.

[12:58] The truth is where you're going to end up,

[13:00] inevitably.

[13:02] So since it's where we're going to end up,

[13:05] why don't we just start with it?

[13:06] - And then save time? - And save the drama.

[13:09] Let's just - Now I get the time comment.

[13:11] Yeah. - start with it.

[13:13] I've repeated that with people so many times

[13:15] where I'm like, "Well, why don't we just begin with it?"

[13:18] Create a judgment-free zone, start with it.

[13:21] And it saves your life, because it saves

[13:25] so much pain and agony and drama.

[13:27] If there's pain to be had, let's just do it now.

[13:30] And that's been transformative to me,

[13:32] and actually has made me be a more relaxed person.

[13:35] I think when I was younger, I used to think,

[13:38] "I can't tell the truth because the world isn't safe.

[13:42] "It's not a safe place for the truth

[13:44] "or for my truth."

[13:45] And now, I've realized, you make the world

[13:46] a safe place for you by telling truth in it.

[13:49] That's how your world becomes safe,

[13:51] is through your own honesty.

[13:53] - When did you start that process?

[13:56] - Around the time I turned 30.

[13:58] Because, the first major truth that I had to tell,

[14:00] the first truth that I didn't tell for a long time

[14:03] and didn't know how to tell and thought

[14:05] that birds would drop dead out of the sky

[14:06] and rivers would run backwards if I said it,

[14:09] was that I didn't want to be married anymore

[14:11] and I didn't want to have a baby.

[14:13] And I had got married very young at 24

[14:17] and had promised my then-husband that when I was 30,

[14:20] I would settle down and stop being a traveler

[14:23] and have a baby and buy a house.

[14:26] And instead, I lost my mind. (laughs)

[14:29] - [Chase] And 30 came and that wasn't...

[14:30] - I lost my mind because I couldn't,

[14:33] what ended up happening and what will

[14:34] end up happening when you don't tell the truth,

[14:36] is that your body will break down.

[14:39] My physical body actually broke.

[14:40] My mental health broke down

[14:41] and my physical health broke down.

[14:44] I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I lost 20 pounds.

[14:46] This is what not-truth does to you.

[14:50] I mean, you get to a place where it's like,

[14:52] "Die, or tell the truth."

[14:54] And I finally did.

[14:56] And instead of making me die, it brought me to life.

[15:01] And he survived it.

[15:03] And if I had fuckin' said it two years earlier,

[15:06] it would have been a much greater gift to him as well.

[15:08] I cost him two years of his life while I

[15:11] couldn't say those words.

[15:13] So, that was my biggest lesson

[15:14] in, you're not doing anybody any favors

[15:17] by holding this in.

[15:19] If there's something that you know about yourself

[15:21] that if, an intimate person in your life knew,

[15:24] they would change their whole life,

[15:25] they should know.

[15:27] You're not doing them any favors

[15:28] by not telling them that.

[15:29] The sooner you tell them that,

[15:30] the sooner that they have agency over their life

[15:33] again to figure out what they need to do now.

[15:35] And that's been a game-changer.

[15:37] - That's a power pellet that I just

[15:38] got from you right there. (laughs)

[15:40] - [Elizabeth] (laughs)

[15:41] - I'm just like, "Uh-oh." (laughs)

[15:43] - It's intense. - [Chase] Wow.

[15:45] - I think a lot of times, we lie and dissemble

[15:48] and manipulate, especially Cancerians like us

[15:51] because we're people-pleasers.

[15:52] But when I actually discovered what the real,

[15:55] what you should actually call a people-pleaser,

[15:58] is a people-manipulator.

[16:01] And that's what a people-pleaser does,

[16:02] is they manipulate people for their own safety.

[16:04] - Ah-ha.

[16:05] - They're not pleasing other people.

[16:06] They're keeping themselves perceived as safe.

[16:09] And you're not doing the other person any favors

[16:12] by doing that, they should know who they're talking to.

[16:15] And they should know what's actually going on.

[16:17] - What role does this play in creativity?

[16:21] "Big Magic," your previous book,

[16:23] was a lot about fear.

[16:24] Opens talking about how you were afraid of,

[16:28] I think you basically say you're afraid

[16:29] of everything. - [Elizabeth] Everything.

[16:30] - As a young person. - Yeah, afraid

[16:32] of everything. - And you had parents,

[16:34] was it your mom that eventually,

[16:38] I think you say, kicked you in the butt or something?

[16:39] - She never indulged my fear for a single minute. (laughs)

[16:42] - (laughs)

[16:43] - She was like, "How did I get this kid?"

[16:45] This terrified bundle of nerves is what I was born into.

[16:50] Truth-telling and creativity,

[16:52] that's an interesting question.

[16:53] I haven't thought about that.

[16:54] I think

[16:57] I was always a creative person.

[16:59] It was often an escape for me.

[17:01] It was a place to go and run to and hide.

[17:04] I liked my imagined worlds better than the real one.

[17:06] - In school, in playtime? - In school,

[17:09] at home, I grew up on a farm.

[17:11] There was a lot of work to be done.

[17:13] I grew up with really pragmatic, responsible people.

[17:15] There was a lot of intense responsibility put on me

[17:18] from an early age.

[17:18] And so, escaping into a dream world

[17:21] was way preferable to being here in this place.

[17:24] In this very cold farmhouse with a lot of chores

[17:27] and a lot of jobs

[17:29] and a lot of expectation that you should

[17:30] be able to do everything already.

[17:33] So for me, I think my early creativity was escape.

[17:36] But I think, as you're saying, I'm just

[17:37] kind of spit balling as you're saying this, but I think,

[17:41] people ask me all the time

[17:42] why "Eat, Pray, Love" was so successful.

[17:44] And I always say, "I don't know."

[17:46] But it could be that it's the story of a woman

[17:49] learning how to tell the truth.

[17:51] It's a story like that, is what happens

[17:53] in the first pages of "Eat, Pray, Love."

[17:55] That, here's this woman sobbing on the bathroom floor

[17:57] for the 90th consecutive night in the middle of the night,

[18:00] unable to say the words,

[18:01] "I don't want to be married anymore."

[18:03] Who, finally says those words.

[18:05] And that is the beginning of my actual adult life.

[18:10] So I think maybe that creative truth-telling

[18:13] can be liberating for a lot of people,

[18:14] not just for the person doing it.

[18:16] - And does it, for you, did the truth-telling

[18:19] unlock a new world of possibilities,

[18:22] a new world of creativity?

[18:24] What do you feel like it unlocked?

[18:26] - It unlocked two years of highly medicated depression.

[18:30] (laughs)

[18:31] - So you got that to look forward to,

[18:33] all this truth-telling, folks. - The way is hard!

[18:35] The way is hard.

[18:36] Joseph Campbell says, "You have to give up

[18:37] "the life that you planned,

[18:38] "to have the one that's waiting for you."

[18:40] But when you give up the life you have planned,

[18:41] and you don't know what's waiting for you,

[18:43] - That's scary.

[18:44] - There's an interim where there's

[18:45] no ground under your feet.

[18:46] And, I also love that the great, great

[18:49] spiritual writer, Stephen Mitchell, and translator,

[18:51] who's translate the Bhagavad Gita beautifully,

[18:53] and the Tao Te Ching and who's a Zen practitioner himself.

[18:56] And he says, "The way, the great way

[19:00] "involves this.

[19:01] "First, the rug gets pulled out from under you.

[19:04] "And then the floor gets pulled out

[19:05] "from under the rug.

[19:06] "And then the ground gets pulled out

[19:08] "from under the floor.

[19:09] "And now, you're getting somewhere."

[19:11] "Now, you're getting somewhere.

[19:12] "You're getting somewhere to the recognition

[19:14] "that there is no ground."

[19:16] There is no ground.

[19:18] And that is the beginning, but it's

[19:21] awful to feel that when you thought you had security.

[19:25] And you thought you had something fixed

[19:27] and then there's like (makes surprised sound).

[19:29] You're like

[19:33] a Warner Brothers cartoon character

[19:34] running over a cliff.

[19:36] And all a sudden...

[19:37] - (makes hurried, stepping sounds)

[19:38] - There's that thing

[19:38] that happens! - Yeah, Wiley Coyote?

[19:39] - Yeah, and your friend and mine, Bernay and I

[19:42] have talked about how we live in a culture

[19:44] that bandies around this very easy kind of ideas.

[19:47] "Jump in the net, we'll catch you!"

[19:48] But, all of us know that we've jumped

[19:51] and broken 10 bones,

[19:53] you know? - [Chase] Bounced, yeah.

[19:54] - Yeah. - Hard.

[19:55] - Or, not even bounced. - Or splatted, yeah.

[19:58] - Left an imprint in the cement, you know?

[19:59] And we all know that there are...

[20:03] I'm not sure we come to this world because it's safe,

[20:05] I'm not sure that it's meant to be particularly safe.

[20:09] So, I think we do a disservice

[20:11] when we try to inspire people by saying,

[20:13] "Yeah, just do it, man!

[20:14] "Just go for it!"

[20:15] As if there's no consequences, and no cost,

[20:18] and no difficulty in that.

[20:20] And so, I'm always really careful to say

[20:23] "Yeah," - [Chase] Jump in,

[20:24] it's gonna suck.

[20:25] - "Jump," and it sucked for two years, you know?

[20:27] And then, I slowly, slowly, excruciatingly,

[20:32] with a lot of help, found my way.

[20:38] And that's how it works.

[20:40] - What's the relationship between...

[20:43] I was struck by something you just said

[20:45] and it made me think of vulnerability.

[20:47] Because there's the floor there you're gonna hit.

[20:54] Is truth-telling a path to vulnerability,

[20:56] which is a path to something else?

[20:58] Or, what's the relationship between...

[21:02] Because, do you have to be vulnerable

[21:03] to tell the truth?

[21:04] - Yeah!

[21:04] I mean, especially if you're telling a truth

[21:06] that you are afraid is going to hurt another person

[21:08] and you're an empath.

[21:09] I mean, that's the most devastating.

[21:13] Those are the most devastating truths

[21:14] I've ever had to tell.

[21:16] And I am an empath, so I'm sitting

[21:20] with you in the pain I just brought to you

[21:24] because of the truth that I have to tell you.

[21:27] That is the Seventh Circle of Hell for me.

[21:30] - [Chase] (laughs)

[21:31] - And the only reason that I do it,

[21:33] is because life, in all of its grace,

[21:36] has been kind enough to teach me through brutal lesson,

[21:40] that all the other ways are worse. (laughs)

[21:45] This is the Seventh Circle of Hell,

[21:47] but all the other things that aren't this

[21:48] are the Eight Circle of Hell.

[21:51] It's the domain of oblivion in which

[21:57] no one is safe.

[21:58] And so, there's a tremendous faith that has to come

[22:02] in believing that the real

[22:05] is the right way,

[22:07] even if it doesn't look like it in this moment.

[22:09] And to stop arguing with reality,

[22:13] and to

[22:16] figure out how are we gonna now live

[22:17] in accordance with reality, you know?

[22:20] This is the reality.

[22:22] So now, what are we gonna do?

[22:25] Rather than, let's pretend this isn't the reality.

[22:28] (laughs)

[22:29] Let me take whatever drugs I have to take

[22:31] to pretend that this isn't the reality.

[22:32] You go do whatever you have to do to hide,

[22:34] to pretend that this isn't the reality.

[22:36] And then, let's just see where that leads.

[22:40] One thing I've discovered about myself is

[22:42] that's a grace, (sirens in background)

[22:44] and it's horrible as it's happening,

[22:46] my being, my actual being, will not allow me to stay

[22:49] in a situation where I'm out of my integrity anymore.

[22:52] I will break down, (sirens blare louder)

[22:55] mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

[22:57] And I will be back on that bathroom floor.

[22:59] (sirens fade) And eventually, I'll be

[23:00] beaten down to the point where I have to start telling...

[23:02] And I'm like, "Fuck, do I have

[23:04] "to tell the truth again?" (laughs)

[23:05] - And now, you're just like,

[23:06] "I'm short circling that,

[23:07] "I'm not gonna..." - I thought I did

[23:09] this already, I mean, that's the thing.

[23:11] You think you did it once and you're done.

[23:15] But life, again, in all her grace,

[23:17] is like, "Now, I'm gonna give you

[23:18] "another chance." - Here's a gift.

[23:20] - Here's a gift.

[23:21] Now's another chance for you to be really brave

[23:25] and to know that the only way out,

[23:26] is through honesty, do it again.

[23:29] Do it again, do it again.

[23:32] And it's getting easier, honestly.

[23:34] Because I trust it now, I trust it.

[23:37] - You mentioned, stepping into

[23:39] some of this truth-telling,

[23:41] at the age of 30,

[23:44] what role did Rayya play in...

[23:46] Is this another, you did a couple of the cycles

[23:50] that we just described between 30 and 46?

[23:54] And, your experience with the partner

[23:58] that you loved dying from cancer?

[24:04] Do you feel like you finally learned

[24:04] the truth? - You know what it is,

[24:05] is that...

[24:08] So, she's the most important person of my history.

[24:13] She was the great love of my life

[24:16] and also my great teacher and my great friend.

[24:23] And the reason that I gravitated to her,

[24:27] and it took years for that

[24:28] to develop. - These are friends

[24:29] for a long time? - We were friends

[24:30] for a long time, we were acquaintances for a long time.

[24:31] And then we became friends, and then we became

[24:33] dear friends, and then we became best friends,

[24:34] and then, for about four or five years there,

[24:36] I didn't even know what to call her.

[24:38] I just called her my person.

[24:39] Even though I was married,

[24:41] and very loyal and faithful in my marriage,

[24:43] this was my person.

[24:43] My person, to me, meant, who do I call?

[24:46] Who's my first phone call in every emergency?

[24:48] Who's my first phone call when I need advice?

[24:50] Who's my first phone call when I wanna celebrate?

[24:52] Who knows everything about me?

[24:56] Who is the one person in the world who I feel

[24:57] completely safe around?

[24:58] And, it was Rayya.

[24:59] And the panic, the existential panic and terror and horror

[25:03] that I experienced at her diagnosis,

[25:06] knowing that that person...

[25:08] I mean, I can still feel in my body

[25:10] what it felt like for all those years,

[25:12] when Rayya would walk into a room.

[25:14] And my whole body would relax

[25:15] because I would be like,

[25:17] "Rayya's here, it's all gonna be okay.

[25:19] "She's got it."

[25:20] 'Cause she was so tough and strong, also.

[25:22] And so loving.

[25:24] In every room that she ever walked into,

[25:26] the strongest person in the room.

[25:27] And so I just wanted to be around her

[25:30] so I could feel that safety.

[25:32] And what I realized,

[25:35] I got this panic the first year of her illness.

[25:37] I had this urgent, craving panic where I was like,

[25:40] "I have to download you.

[25:43] "I have to download you because I don't know

[25:44] "how to do life without you.

[25:46] "And, I need to learn quickly."

[25:50] I thought I had time to learn how to be like her,

[25:51] but I was like, "I gotta get it all in me now!"

[25:54] Because no one else can... - [Chase] That's right.

[25:55] - Yeah! - Help.

[25:56] - I basically became an addict of wanting to

[25:59] shoot, smoke, inhale, eat, imbibe her.

[26:04] And what ended up happening, is that

[26:09] as she got sicker,

[26:11] and as her own terror and fear grew,

[26:16] and she couldn't take care of me anymore of that way,

[26:21] I had to become her to take care of her.

[26:26] And what I've realized,

[26:28] my beloved friend, Martha Beck,

[26:31] said after Rayya died,

[26:33] "What I've seen happen to you two over the years,

[26:35] "is now, she's braided into you.

[26:37] "And you have an essential DNA strand of Rayya now."

[26:40] And that is the download.

[26:44] But it didn't come the way

[26:46] I thought it was gonna come.

[26:47] It didn't come from her teaching it to me, empirically.

[26:51] It came from me having to step up.

[26:54] That's what I said at her memorial service, too.

[26:56] 'Cause she that role in a lot of people's lives.

[26:57] There were probably 10 people who would have said

[26:59] she was the most important person in their life

[27:00] that they couldn't live without.

[27:01] - [Chase] Wow.

[27:02] - And I said, "Well, what's now asked of us

[27:04] "is that we have to

[27:06] "step up and we all have to be that, now."

[27:10] And I find that I can truly say that I am.

[27:13] - Yes.

[27:14] You're, what's looked from the outside,

[27:17] as just this amazing, courageous, stepping into

[27:22] the sharing-of-the-process was

[27:26] so powerful from where I was sitting.

[27:29] Do you feel like that was part of your assignment?

[27:31] Was that like this process that you were talking about,

[27:34] weaving this strand of DNA through,

[27:36] for her last weeks and months?

[27:41] I don't know.

[27:42] Is that part of your assignment?

[27:44] - Yeah. (laughs) - [Chase] (laughs)

[27:46] I think it's always been part of my assignment.

[27:48] Okay, maybe I think assignment is grandiose

[27:50] because I'm not sure.

[27:52] I don't know how the universe works.

[27:54] I'm not sure I know what my assignment is.

[27:55] But I will say this.

[27:56] I will say that

[28:00] the distance in time and space

[28:01] between the moment when I learned something

[28:05] that helps and saves me,

[28:07] and how much time I can allow

[28:09] before I desperately wanna put it out there

[28:12] in case somebody that day needs it,

[28:15] that's a very short time span for me.

[28:18] And I feel that I have to.

[28:20] And I don't feel that I have to

[28:21] necessarily out of responsibility to them.

[28:24] Because again, I don't know if it's useful.

[28:27] I just know that, it starts to hurt me to not share it.

[28:31] It actually feels like pain.

[28:33] I remember my guru in India used to say,

[28:35] "Any talent that you have that you do not use

[28:38] "becomes pain."

[28:40] But I also think any wisdom and insight that you have

[28:43] that you do not share, becomes pain.

[28:46] Why in the world would I not share it?

[28:49] I know so intimately what it's like to suffer.

[28:51] I know so intimately, deeply in my bones and skin,

[28:54] what it's like to not know what to fucking do.

[28:59] If I've been given one little glimmer of light,

[29:01] why in the world would I be like,

[29:04] "You want this?" (laughs)

[29:05] - I got somethin' for ya, take it!

[29:07] - I've been so helped by people who have been

[29:09] generous enough to learn in public.

[29:11] You know, I think learning in public is

[29:13] such a generous thing for people to do.

[29:15] Because, we look to it and we're like,

[29:17] "Bernay learns in public,

[29:18] "Glennon learns in public,

[29:19] "Cheryl Strayed learned in public."

[29:21] My friend, Rob Bell, Martha Beck,

[29:22] they're all brave enough to learn in front of us

[29:25] so that we can maybe get something.

[29:28] - There's a strong creative thread

[29:29] in a lot of the people that you just talked about.

[29:31] And I'm still trying to connect, maybe

[29:36] poorly, but to connect creativity to that.

[29:39] Is that a mechanism for teaching?

[29:41] Is your ability to write, your ability to write

[29:44] not just a novel or a non-fiction book,

[29:46] but a Instagram post, is that your public teaching?

[29:52] Is art your vehicle for teaching?

[29:54] Or, what role does creativity play in that?

[29:56] - Yeah, I mean, I guess it is.

[29:58] I didn't plan it to be.

[30:00] - [Chase] No problem, you can take that away.

[30:02] - (laughs) - [Chase] (laughs)

[30:04] - No, I didn't plan it to be.

[30:06] I did it because I wanted to do it.

[30:08] And I still do it 'cause I wanna do it.

[30:09] And I still feel,

[30:12] I still truly do not feel the slightest bit

[30:14] of responsibility to my readers or my followers at all.

[30:17] And that's why I'm so relaxed with them

[30:19] and why I love them.

[30:20] If I felt responsible to them,

[30:21] I think it would be really heavy on me

[30:23] and, weirdly, on them.

[30:24] But I feel like,

[30:26] I don't feel responsibility to you guys.

[30:28] I love you.

[30:30] I love you.

[30:31] But, I don't feel the slightest bit of responsibility

[30:33] to you so that means

[30:35] I get to do whatever I want, creatively.

[30:37] And that you, my readers, get to decide

[30:40] whether you wanna come with me.

[30:41] Which is why 12 million people came with me

[30:44] for "Eat, Pray, Love."

[30:45] - [Chase] That's bonkers. - But when I wrote

[30:46] my novel, "The Signature of All Things" about a

[30:47] 19th century botanical virgin who studies moss,

[30:50] a couple hundred thousand people came with me on that.

[30:52] But, it's elective, you know what I mean?

[30:55] They don't have to.

[30:57] And I don't have to write, "Eat, Pray, Love," again.

[30:59] You know, everyone's free.

[31:01] - [Chase] That was part of your TED Talk,

[31:02] right? - Everyone's free, yeah.

[31:03] - When you really realize that the most popular

[31:06] piece of work that you've written may be behind you.

[31:09] But, stepping into whatever's next for you

[31:12] has to be authentically you, right?

[31:13] - It's gotta be. - You can't chase that.

[31:14] - I can't do that again.

[31:15] I don't know how I did it the first time.

[31:18] But the teaching came kind of after "Eat, Pray, Love,"

[31:20] where I felt like people...

[31:22] I think, if you're called to be a teacher,

[31:26] you'll know because people will keep asking you stuff.

[31:30] That's what happened! (laughs) - That's the most simple

[31:31] definition of a teacher, right?

[31:33] - People will gravitate and be like,

[31:34] "Hey, what do you think about this?"

[31:36] And at first, I was really

[31:39] I was like, "No, I'm just a dumb girl went through,

[31:43] "I can't!" (makes silly, unsure noises)

[31:44] But I feel like, after a certain time,

[31:47] if people keep asking you something,

[31:48] it's really disingenuous to keep being like,

[31:51] "I don't know." (makes silly, unsure noises)

[31:54] Did you like that sound?

[31:55] - (laughs) Yeah, that was a good one!

[31:56] - [Elizabeth] I think it's - You captioned that, right?

[31:57] We gotta check. - more respectful to actually

[32:02] take a swing at the question, you know?

[32:04] And say, "I'll take a swing at it."

[32:06] And if people ask me questions that

[32:08] are just beyond my pay grade, - [Chase] (laughs)

[32:10] - I'll send them elsewhere.

[32:11] If people ask me about,

[32:13] how to work in the corporate world.

[32:15] I'll be like, "Go talk to Bernay,

[32:16] "I've never had a job." (laughs)

[32:19] I was a bartender, I have no idea.

[32:21] If they ask me about parenting, I'm like...

[32:24] "Glennon's right over here."

[32:26] So, I feel like we all shuffle ourselves around

[32:28] to each other as well.

[32:29] Like, "This is probably a better question for you."

[32:33] - I wanna go back to that fear part

[32:34] that you opened "Big Magic" with.

[32:37] The connection between creativity and fear

[32:40] for you.

[32:43] Do you feel like that's common?

[32:47] Why did you write "Big Magic?"

[32:50] - I wrote "Big Magic," actually, because

[32:52] people kept asking me questions about creativity.

[32:54] Especially, after I gave that TED Talk.

[32:57] And that is the one book that I could say

[32:59] that I honestly wrote,

[33:00] precisely as a self-help book.

[33:02] Because it's the one subject where I feel like,

[33:05] "I actually know about this."

[33:08] I'm completely comfortable talking to you

[33:10] and giving you advice about creativity.

[33:11] I've been doing this my whole life.

[33:13] And I have a relationship with it

[33:14] that's a lot less tormented than most

[33:16] of the relationships that I see people

[33:18] having with creativity.

[33:19] So, let me be an expert here, you know? (laughs)

[33:22] Let me put on an expert hat and actually say,

[33:25] "Yeah, I'm a middle-aged woman.

[33:26] "I've been doin' this a long time.

[33:27] "Let me tell you some stuff that I've learned."

[33:29] But the fear piece is, I think,

[33:33] intensely sensitive people tend to experience fear

[33:36] and everything at a heightened level.

[33:38] I experience everything, I've experienced love,

[33:40] and passion and lust and sorrow and despair.

[33:45] I drop something on my foot and I experience

[33:47] it at a high level.

[33:48] It's all an opera around me.

[33:50] (laughs)

[33:51] So the fear is just part of that.

[33:53] But, my saving grace in the whole world

[33:56] and in myself, is that afraid as I am, and I am.

[34:01] I'm 1% more curious than I am afraid.

[34:04] Thank God when they doled out all these traits to me,

[34:07] they gave me a dose of curiosity that was just...

[34:10] All it has to be, is this much bigger than fear.

[34:13] It doesn't have to be a lot bigger,

[34:15] it just has to be enough bigger

[34:17] that it's worth it to take the risk.

[34:20] 'Cause you're more interested than you are scared.

[34:23] And that's why, I think, that my

[34:25] working definition of creative living,

[34:28] not creativity in general, not meaning you have to

[34:30] do watercolors or take a macrame class.

[34:33] If you wanna live what I think of as a creative life,

[34:35] my definition of a creative life, is any life

[34:38] where your decisions are routinely based

[34:41] more strongly on your curiosity than your fear

[34:43] every single day,

[34:45] in all your realms of your life.

[34:47] And then, your life itself will become a work of art.

[34:50] And, it doesn't matter what you make or produce

[34:52] or weave or influence, it's just that you

[34:55] will create a life that will be really interesting

[34:58] for you.

[34:58] Which is, - Beautiful.

[35:00] - the person who you want to keep

[35:01] the most entertained. - Yeah, right.

[35:04] That's beautiful, beautiful. - I would imagine.

[35:07] - You said that you were very comfortable

[35:09] giving advice on creativity? - [Elizabeth] Yeah.

[35:10] - So, knowing who's on the other side of these...

[35:15] We're in their ears right now,

[35:17] they're watching this video or listening to us.

[35:19] Without retracing all the steps of "Big Magic,"

[35:21] 'cause that's a 260-page book or whatever,

[35:24] what is the advice that you have for people?

[35:26] 'Cause there's a lot of folks out there

[35:27] who are stuck or blocked.

[35:28] Or, they go from zero to one trying to

[35:31] figure it out from the beginning.

[35:33] Or, they identify as creator and then they're

[35:35] trying to go from one to 10.

[35:38] - Mercy,

[35:40] I think is the fundamental word

[35:42] that is coming to me as a short answer to that question.

[35:47] If you want to have a healthy engagement with creativity,

[35:51] if you want to have a healthy engagement with yourself,

[35:53] if you wanna have a healthy engagement with others,

[35:56] mercy has to be at the foundation.

[35:59] Mercy for self, mercy for others,

[36:01] mercy for the inevitable disappointment

[36:04] that you're gonna feel when you make something,

[36:08] and it's not what you wanted it to be.

[36:11] My beloved friend, Ann Patchett, the novelist,

[36:14] has this great way of describing this.

[36:16] She says her favorite part of the creative process

[36:18] is when she's in the dreaming state of it.

[36:20] And she gets to be alone with the idea for the novel.

[36:23] And it follows her for years,

[36:25] and she's thinking about it.

[36:25] And it's growing in her head.

[36:28] And it's with her when she's washing dishes.

[36:29] It's with her when she's going through the car wash.

[36:31] It's with her when she's at somebody's wedding.

[36:32] She's just constantly got this lovely dream.

[36:34] And in her imagination, the thing that she's going to make,

[36:37] she describes it as a tourmaline butterfly.

[36:39] Like a butterfly made out of gems,

[36:41] that it catches the light so beautifully,

[36:43] it's so exquisite, it's so perfect.

[36:45] This is gonna be the one, right?

[36:47] This is gonna be the one, that when I make it,

[36:50] I'm gonna actually achieve that

[36:52] platonic ideal of the thing.

[36:54] And it's gonna be so beautiful.

[36:55] And then, she says, the worst part of the creative process,

[36:58] is day one of making it. - [Chase] (laughs)

[37:01] - 'Cause what you have to do is

[37:01] - So true. - pluck the

[37:03] tourmaline butterfly out of the sky,

[37:04] put it on the desk, take a mallet,

[37:07] and smash it into a thousand pieces and let it go,

[37:09] because it can never exist.

[37:12] And then you make

[37:14] the approximation of your tourmaline butterfly,

[37:16] which is made out of used chewing gum

[37:19] and baseball cards

[37:22] and twigs and a tin can and a hinge.

[37:26] And you're like, "Here's my butterfly I made!"

[37:29] It's like

[37:29] - (laughs) - (makes funny, silly noises)

[37:30] And you're like, "I made it by myself, look!"

[37:33] "I did it, I did it!"

[37:34] And I think the merciful artist,

[37:37] the merciful creator, the merciful human,

[37:39] is the one who can say, "You know,

[37:42] "no one's ever made one like that before." (laughs)

[37:45] - Good job, self!

[37:47] - And maybe there's a reason.

[37:48] But, the boring thing would be

[37:51] if we all made tourmaline butterflies.

[37:53] The interesting thing is,

[37:54] truly, no one's ever made one like that before.

[37:57] And the mercy and the empathy towards yourself

[38:01] is what gets you...

[38:02] I always say, on day one, everyone starts day one

[38:04] really excited about their project.

[38:06] Everyone on day two, looks at what they made on day one

[38:08] and hates themself.

[38:10] The only people who get to day three

[38:12] are the people who have mercy.

[38:14] So beyond anything else.

[38:16] And that is going to be the same

[38:17] whether you are a master or a beginner.

[38:21] Everyone's day three

[38:23] is that's where the rubber meets the road.

[38:25] You're gonna keep going and keep disappointing yourself,

[38:28] or you're gonna stop.

[38:29] And my suggestion is that you keep disappointing yourself

[38:31] and be very, very gracious toward yourself about it.

[38:34] (laughs)

[38:35] - Is that an aspect of bravery

[38:36] or is that curiosity or is it

[38:38] vulnerability? - It's compassion.

[38:39] - Self-compassion? - It's compassion.

[38:41] It's compassion, yeah.

[38:42] I mean, it's really the foundation

[38:43] of compassion which says,

[38:46] the imperfect is the perfect, you know?

[38:50] - [Chase] Say more of that.

[38:53] - Well, in a way it's like the end of the argument.

[38:55] It's the end of the argument against reality, you know?

[38:59] The reality is,

[39:03] you probably can't make the thing

[39:05] in the way that you dream it.

[39:07] The end of the argument against the pain of that

[39:10] is, "So what?"

[39:12] Make it anyway.

[39:15] I'm gonna hatch my weird little steam-punk butterfly.

[39:18] (laughter)

[39:20] - That's pretty good.

[39:21] Tin can, hinges, bubble gum, baseball cars and duct tape.

[39:25] Did you have duct tape in there, maybe?

[39:26] - I don't know why I didn't, but yours should!

[39:29] I think that putting yourself in alignment with reality,

[39:35] rather than in a constant war against it,

[39:37] is actually what compassion is.

[39:39] And that's also how you find

[39:40] compassion for the other, for the people in your life.

[39:43] Instead of me needing you to constantly be

[39:45] an entirely different human being than you are,

[39:48] I can put myself in compassionate alignment

[39:50] with the reality of what you are.

[39:52] I can put myself in compassionate alignment

[39:54] with the reality of what I am.

[39:55] I wanna be 10 different things than what I am today.

[39:58] But,

[39:59] this is what we're workin' with.

[40:00] (laughs) You know?

[40:01] This is what we got!

[40:03] This is what we got.

[40:04] Flap, flap.

[40:06] Piece falls off.

[40:08] (makes silly sounds)

[40:09] This is what we got, you know?

[40:10] - How do you do what you do right now?

[40:12] You're just like, truth zingers.

[40:16] Is it just repetition?

[40:17] Of the first time it's hard,

[40:18] the second time it's 10% less hard?

[40:20] The third time, it's...

[40:21] Or 1% less hard?

[40:23] - I don't know if anybody realizes

[40:25] what percentage of my life I spend

[40:28] taking care of my mental health.

[40:30] That's my full-time job.

[40:33] And writing is a hobby that I do on the side,

[40:36] every once in a while, I write a book.

[40:37] The rest of my life,

[40:40] an enormous percentage of my day

[40:42] is spent managing this

[40:46] neighborhood,

[40:47] warring neighborhood. (laughs)

[40:49] This dysfunctional family that I carry

[40:52] inside of my mind.

[40:55] And everything that I've learned that

[40:57] has any taste of wisdom and grace,

[40:59] is from the front lines of this, you know?

[41:02] And I mean it, today.

[41:06] That's what I was doing on the plane today,

[41:07] was managing my mental health

[41:08] today. - [Chase] Wow, wow.

[41:10] - There are practices that I do every single day

[41:12] in order to keep myself

[41:15] happy and loved and connected.

[41:19] And I do them.

[41:21] I have to save my life every single day.

[41:23] - [Chase] Wow. - I have

[41:24] very few days off from trying to save my life.

[41:28] - I have to ask. - This is very immediate,

[41:29] what I'm talking about. - Yes.

[41:30] I'm not talking about what you have to do.

[41:33] I'm talking about what I do.

[41:35] - On the way here, yeah.

[41:36] - Yeah. (laughs)

[41:38] - I have to ask,

[41:41] what are the things?

[41:43] And I understand that you're - No, I don't mind

[41:44] talking about it. - talking about a whole life.

[41:45] - Because, look, if it helps?

[41:47] - Yeah.

[41:48] Well, there's a lot of people who

[41:49] will take your guidance. - The most important

[41:51] relationship that I have in my life

[41:53] is a dialog that I launched 20 years ago

[41:56] between me and Love, capital L, Love.

[41:58] That I have continued nearly everyday of my life,

[42:00] over the last 20 years.

[42:02] And it came in the deepest depression where,

[42:07] I was in that deep, God-sized hole,

[42:11] of just wanting somebody

[42:14] to comfort me.

[42:15] Wanting somebody to save me.

[42:19] Wanting somebody to make me feel safe

[42:22] and make me feel like it was okay.

[42:24] And I have beautiful people in my life

[42:27] but no one, and I know this for a fact,

[42:29] because I have looked for it.

[42:30] No one can handle that in me. (laughs)

[42:34] Nobody.

[42:36] Because sometimes, people have to sleep.

[42:38] They have to get a sandwich

[42:39] and they have to go to work.

[42:41] And I'm like, "Wait! (laughs)

[42:43] "Where are you going?"

[42:44] Nobody.

[42:46] You have no idea how needy I am.

[42:48] And I do.

[42:49] And this was a period of my life where I was alone.

[42:52] And so, what I did was,

[42:54] sit down in the middle of the night

[42:56] in my slough of despair,

[42:57] and take out a notebook.

[43:00] And this was this great leap of imagination.

[43:04] What are the words that I've always

[43:05] wanted to hear somebody say?

[43:07] Can I say it to myself?

[43:09] And, I started writing those words to me.

[43:12] I am right here.

[43:13] I have got you.

[43:15] I will always have you.

[43:16] You are precious unto me.

[43:18] I don't care if you

[43:20] stay depressed for the entire rest of your life.

[43:22] I still love you.

[43:23] I don't care if you never fix this.

[43:24] I don't care if you never get better.

[43:26] I don't care if never create another,

[43:27] I don't care if you live in a box under a bridge.

[43:30] I am yours, you are mine.

[43:31] I have got you.

[43:32] You are my boo.

[43:33] I was with you when you were born,

[43:34] I will be with you until after you die.

[43:36] I will never leave you.

[43:37] You are mine, belonging imprint.

[43:39] Belonging love.

[43:41] Love, ownership, forever.

[43:43] You can't tire me out.

[43:45] You can't tire me out,

[43:46] we can do this all night.

[43:48] You will get tired before I do.

[43:49] I love you so much.

[43:50] This is what I've always wanted to hear

[43:52] another human being say.

[43:53] And, it's a little much to ask. (laughs)

[43:54] - Yeah, I'm like...

[43:56] - And so, I've learned to bring it.

[44:01] And when I figured out what that voice is,

[44:04] it's love.

[44:07] It's universal human love.

[44:10] And that is the most important

[44:11] relationship in my entire life.

[44:12] And I write a letter to myself from that

[44:15] every single day of my life.

[44:17] - Is that the number one vehicle,

[44:18] is writing yourself that Love letter,

[44:20] capital L, love?

[44:21] - Yeah.

[44:22] And lots of times, it's dialogue, you know?

[44:24] And the dialogue will go like, me be like,

[44:26] hysterical, I don't know what to do.

[44:28] It's all falling apart.

[44:30] I've failed again.

[44:31] I've lost again.

[44:32] I'm unlovable, I'm untenable, I'm unmanageable.

[44:35] I'm back at zero.

[44:37] Help, help, help, help, help.

[44:39] And Love's like, always says exactly the same thing.

[44:41] Always begins with, "I'm right here.

[44:43] "I'm right here, I'm right here.

[44:44] "I'm right here, I'm with you.

[44:45] "I'm not going anywhere, I've got you."

[44:47] And then, I will say, "What should I do?"

[44:50] And Love will say, "I don't know,

[44:51] "that's not my department.

[44:53] "I just love you."

[44:54] And then, I will say, "Tell me how this is going to end."

[44:58] And Love will say, "I have no access to that information,

[45:01] "but I will be with you through it, whatever it is."

[45:05] And then, I say, "If you can't tell me what to do,

[45:08] "and you can't tell me how this is gonna end,

[45:10] "what the fuck use are you?"

[45:12] And Love says, "I am company for you in your darkest hours

[45:14] "and I always will be.

[45:16] "And that is my use, that's what I'm here for."

[45:19] And then, I can begin to breathe.

[45:22] - [Chase] Wow. - Begin to breathe.

[45:23] And I don't know whether that thing, that voice,

[45:28] is God talking to me,

[45:31] Rayya talking through me,

[45:32] angels on my shoulder,

[45:34] my heightened imagination that creates

[45:36] and it's own trauma, the thing it needs.

[45:38] I don't care,

[45:39] it works. - Yeah, it works.

[45:41] You're like, "It doesn't matter,

[45:42] "I'll take it." - It works.

[45:42] And I've learned that by being able to hold myself

[45:46] that way, I can also be, not with anyone,

[45:49] but I can be in the room with almost anyone

[45:52] at this point.

[45:53] 'Cause I can just be like, "I don't care

[45:55] "if you ever sort this out.

[45:58] "You're a wreck, but I'm right here."

[46:00] And they're like, "What do I do?"

[46:01] I'm like, "I don't know but I'll be with you. (laughs)

[46:04] "I'll just be love in the room with you."

[46:07] And if they're like

[46:08] "It doesn't help," - [Chase] So powerful.

[46:09] - I'm like, "Well, okay but I'm here.

[46:10] "I'll just sit here."

[46:12] The thing that I've learned about Love,

[46:15] capital L, Love, about that, over the years,

[46:17] is that Love, real Love, doesn't need

[46:19] anything in the room to be different than it is.

[46:22] It doesn't need anything to be different than it is.

[46:24] It never says, "Here's what you have to go do now.

[46:26] "Here's how you have to change.

[46:27] "Here's how you have to grow."

[46:28] Doesn't need it, doesn't need it.

[46:31] - Way, way more powerful.

[46:31] - Yeah, it's like, "You just keep doin' this

[46:34] "and I'm just right here, I got you."

[46:36] And that is how I have survived my life.

[46:40] - Is the manifestation always writing

[46:42] or are there any other tools that you use?

[46:44] - Writing is the thing, you know.

[46:46] I think it's the most direct for me.

[46:48] It slows the mind down.

[46:50] Most of us, all of us, have minds that move

[46:52] at just the speed of light, literally, or more.

[46:55] No, I guess nothing's faster than that.

[46:56] Thoughts move really, really, really, really fast.

[46:58] So, writing slows it.

[47:00] So, I can bring my panic to the page and say,

[47:02] "I have this very deliberate question, help."

[47:05] And then, Love will say, "I got you, I'm right here.

[47:08] "It's okay, it's gonna be all right.

[47:10] "It's gonna be all right even if it's not.

[47:12] "Even if it's not, it's gonna be all right."

[47:13] - So you mentioned being on a plane,

[47:15] were you writing to yourself on a plane?

[47:16] - [Elizabeth] Yeah! - Yeah?

[47:17] I mean, I'm not kidding when I say

[47:18] I do this every day.

[47:19] - No, I like these foundational practices.

[47:22] It's a really common thread in greatness

[47:25] and creativity and there's a self-care that,

[47:29] I think it's a complete myth.

[47:31] This sort of horrified artists who's trying to

[47:33] dive into that in a unhealthy way.

[47:36] That healthy way of trying to manage it

[47:38] that you're talking about.

[47:38] It's gonna create the work. - I have no interest

[47:40] in being a tormented artist or a tormented person.

[47:42] I often am one.

[47:43] But when I am, I will do anything I can

[47:45] to help myself get out of it as fast as I can.

[47:47] Or, to reach to somebody who can help me.

[47:50] I will relentlessly...

[47:54] This is one of the things that Love

[47:55] says to me all the time, is, "I will make sure

[47:56] "you get whatever you need.

[47:59] "Whatever care you need, we will make sure you get it.

[48:01] "We will make sure you get it,

[48:03] "starting tomorrow." (laughs)

[48:05] - I read a thing that you

[48:07] scrapped an entire novel.

[48:08] - (laughs) - Is that true?

[48:10] - Well, it wasn't a novel, it was a memoir.

[48:12] But, I did, yeah.

[48:13] Yeah.

[48:15] But a lot of people have that. - Was it lacking authenticity?

[48:17] Why would you do that?

[48:17] - It was the book that came after "Eat, Pray, Love."

[48:19] And it was just tortured because it was so self-conscious.

[48:23] Because I was like, "I'm the author

[48:25] "of 'Eat, Pray, Love' now." (makes uncomfortable sound)

[48:27] I just had no natural voice in it.

[48:29] And it was just strangled.

[48:31] Every sentence felt really strangled.

[48:34] And it wasn't an easy thing.

[48:36] I wept and wept when I realized that I was so off.

[48:39] And I also realized, this is not worth even

[48:41] trying to save.

[48:43] And it was a very

[48:44] painful truth-telling moment to my publishers to say,

[48:47] "Guess what I have for you?

[48:48] "Nothing. - [Chase] Nothing.

[48:49] - "And you can't see what I've done.

[48:51] "And I can't tell you when I'm gonna have something.

[48:53] "And I don't know what, if ever."

[48:55] And then, I spent the next year gardening.

[48:58] Without a plan.

[49:00] And just like faith, I'm just gonna do something else, now.

[49:02] I'm just gonna plant things.

[49:05] I don't know.

[49:06] And it wasn't like, "I'm gonna do this

[49:07] "and then I'll have a great idea."

[49:08] It was like, "I'm just gonna do this." (laughs)

[49:11] Like, "This is fun.

[49:12] "Water, plant, watch it grow.

[49:14] "This is very funamental.

[49:14] "It's a lot easier than writing a book."

[49:16] - [Chase] Wow. - Literally grounding.

[49:18] Getting your hands in the dirt, you know?

[49:20] And then, by the end of that season of the garden,

[49:24] inspiration started to come back and I found it.

[49:27] I didn't know I would.

[49:29] - You have to believe it. - Yeah, yeah.

[49:32] - How do you know the work to do

[49:33] when you don't know what work to do?

[49:36] - Something else. (laughs)

[49:37] - [Chase] Yeah, just like, anything else?

[49:40] If it's over there,

[49:40] you run the other way. - Something else.

[49:41] And I would suggest doing something with your hands.

[49:45] - [Chase] Yeah, I have that sense

[49:46] of building, too. - We're in our heads so much.

[49:47] And most of us, at this moment of history,

[49:49] we're so disconnected from our bodies

[49:51] and from the world.

[49:54] And we really do think of our bodies as

[49:55] a broomstick that we carry a jar

[49:57] with our brain in it around on, you know?

[49:59] And so, I would say anything that you can do

[50:01] to embody

[50:03] work.

[50:04] Whether it's exercise or to

[50:07] make something.

[50:08] - [Chase] Physicality.

[50:09] - I love that story, there's this author,

[50:10] Clive James, this British author.

[50:12] And I tell this story in "Big Magic."

[50:14] He had an enormous failure

[50:17] where he literally bankrupted his family

[50:19] to produce a play,

[50:21] that ill-advisedly was a play

[50:23] that mocked every single literary person

[50:26] in London living at that time, who were all his friends.

[50:28] So, he lost all his money and he lost all his friends.

[50:31] And, it was terrible.

[50:33] - And he didn't see this coming?

[50:33] - No, - (laughs)

[50:34] - 'cause he was like that cool guy who,

[50:37] everything he touched turned to gold.

[50:38] And he thought it'd be really funny.

[50:40] - [Chase] (makes defeated sound)

[50:41] - And, it was actually just rancid.

[50:43] And he fell into a severe depression for months,

[50:46] and couldn't even get off the couch.

[50:47] And then one day, his little daughter

[50:49] came in and said, "Daddy, I want a bicycle."

[50:52] And they went and bought a bicycle for her,

[50:54] but he didn't have any money.

[50:55] So, he had to buy this junky bicycle.

[50:57] She was embarrassed to ride it around.

[50:58] And so, he said he'd fix it up for her.

[50:59] So, he fixed it up and he

[51:01] ended up getting all the rust off it

[51:03] and painting it midnight blue.

[51:04] And then he got this other little, tiny paintbrush

[51:06] and he painted thousands of tiny stars on it

[51:08] like it was Merlin's cloak.

[51:11] And she rode off on it and the next day,

[51:12] another little girl in the neighborhood

[51:13] came up and said, "Can you paint my bicycle

[51:15] "the same that you did with your daughter's?"

[51:17] Then, there was a line of kids

[51:18] asking him to paint their bicycles.

[51:20] And he did that for weeks.

[51:21] And then he was like, "You know what?

[51:23] "I figured out what I'm supposed to do with my life.

[51:24] "I'm supposed to paint bicycles with my life."

[51:27] And, he just relaxed.

[51:28] And then the next day, he had an idea for a novel.

[51:30] (laughs)

[51:32] So the answer is, go paint bicycles.

[51:34] Just do something else, walk away.

[51:36] Walk away from the thing that's not working

[51:38] and do something mindless

[51:41] and satisfying.

[51:43] - Can I confess something to you?

[51:45] - Yeah!

[51:45] - When we leave here, I'm also,

[51:47] I'm stuck, creatively, right now.

[51:48] I'm working on a couple of things and stuck.

[51:50] I'm gonna go power wash my friend's

[51:53] driveway. - Hot! (laughs)

[51:55] - It's the best! - (claps hands)

[51:56] - It's literally,

[51:58] it's a medicine. - Oh my god,

[52:00] that sounds great!

[52:02] - And you see progress. - Yes!

[52:03] - And it's hypnotic progress. - [Elizabeth] Yeah.

[52:06] - It's so embarrassing

[52:07] for me. - I would suggest

[52:09] going around the neighborhood,

[52:10] and power washing everybody's driveways for a while.

[52:12] Why stop with your friend?

[52:14] Just do that for the summer.

[52:15] I guarantee you, something great will come out of it.

[52:17] - (laughs)

[52:19] - Be that guy!

[52:20] - Oh, my God. - Just be that guy.

[52:22] - That's so embarrassing

[52:22] to confess, but it's so true. - It'll drop you

[52:24] out of the drama and into the present.

[52:27] And that's when the ideas start

[52:28] to kick in. - I borrowed the

[52:29] pressure washer from my dad.

[52:30] I had to go get special gas

[52:31] before our conversation, - [Elizabeth] (laughs)

[52:33] - so that I could go do this.

[52:34] - I'm so jealous.

[52:36] I've called friends at times and been like,

[52:37] "Can I come and clean our your closets

[52:40] "or organize your kitchen?

[52:40] "I'm having trouble writing."

[52:42] So, yeah, something else.

[52:44] Perfect, you got it.

[52:46] It's all gonna be all right.

[52:47] - Awesome.

[52:48] Thank you very, very much - You're welcome.

[52:50] - for sitting down with us.

[52:51] Congrats on the new book.

[52:55] It's so inspirational

[52:56] to read.

[52:57] It's so timely.

[52:58] It's such a powerful piece of work.

[53:00] - [Elizabeth] Thank you.

[53:01] - Thank you very much. - Thanks for having me

[53:02] on the show!

[53:03] - I'm looking forward, I haven't finished the book.

[53:05] I wanted to sit with you first.

[53:06] - [Elizabeth] Okay, I'm glad I didn't spoil it for you.

[53:08] - Yeah, I was worried, I didn't wanna go there.

[53:10] So, for those folks at home,

[53:11] go check out "City Girls".

[53:13] Thank you so much for being a guest on this show.

[53:15] Really, really appreciate it.

[53:16] - You're welcome, I loved it.

[53:17] - Awesome. - All right.

[53:18] - See you again, probably, hopefully, tomorrow.

[53:22] (dramatic techno music)

Elizabeth Gilbert
ArtistElizabeth Gilbert

American author whose 2006 memoir Eat Pray Love — a year-long journey through Italy, India, and Indonesia in search of pleasure, devotion, and balance — became one of the most-read…

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Mercy-creativityHonesty-healingGrief-writingWomen-freedomSelf-discovery

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Frequently Asked Questions

Elizabeth Gilbert frames this as the central question of her novel City of Girls. She suggests that becoming yourself requires honesty—first with yourself, then in how you live. The book shows a young woman navigating sensual choices and social expectations without shame, illustrating that selfhood emerges through lived experience and authenticity, not through self-denial.
According to Gilbert, writing became essential when processing her partner Rayya's death from cancer. Rather than escaping the pain, writing allowed her to move through it with consciousness and intention. She describes writing as a tool to slow the mind during hard times and to honor both the love that preceded the loss and the loss itself.
Gilbert's core principle is 'I'm 1% more curious than I am afraid.' This tiny ratio is enough to lean toward the unknown. She also notes that the most thrilled feeling when making something comes on day one—not at completion—which frees you from waiting for external validation to feel the joy of creating.
'The only way out of pain is through honesty,' Gilbert states plainly. This means not pretending that pain isn't real, not avoiding difficult truths about yourself or your circumstances. She applies this to grief, creative blocks, and everyday suffering—because the things we won't admit to ourselves are the most damaging.
Gilbert frames mental health as her full-time job, with creative work as a hobby. This doesn't diminish creativity; rather, it acknowledges that authentic creative work cannot come from an unstable foundation. Without continuous interior work of self-awareness and emotional processing, you cannot access genuine creativity or freedom.
Gilbert describes mercy as the foundation of any creative endeavor. It means putting yourself in 'compassionate alignment with yourself'—treating yourself the way you would treat someone you love when they're suffering. It means not abandoning yourself during hard moments and recognizing that you are 'precious unto' yourself.
'Just being' means existing without having to perform a specific role or identity. It's freedom from constant social expectation to be a certain type of woman, person, or professional. Gilbert identifies this as rare and aspirational, and sees it as foundational to authentic self-discovery and true freedom.

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