Transcript
[0:00] - Hey everybody, what's up?
[0:01] It's Chase.
[0:02] Welcome to another episode
of The Chase Jarvis Live Show
[0:03] here on CreativeLive.
[0:04] You all know this show.
[0:05] This is where I sit down with
the best humans in the world
[0:07] and I do everything I can
to unpack their brains
[0:09] with the goal of helping
you live your dreams
[0:11] whether that's in career
and hobby or in life.
[0:14] My guest today you will
recognize her immediately
[0:17] when I say the first thing
out of my mouth which is,
[0:19] she wrote "Eat, Pray, Love"
a considerable time ago.
[0:23] Then, she was named one of
[0:24] the Most 100 Influential
People in the World
[0:27] by Time Magazine.
[0:28] We're here today to talk about creativity,
[0:30] to talk about building and
living on a life that you love,
[0:33] and her new book called "City of Girls."
[0:34] My guest is the inimitable,
Elizabeth Gilbert.
[0:37] Welcome to the show.
- Hi Chase.
[0:39] (upbeat music)
[0:50] (applause)
[0:53] - [Offcamera Audience
Member] They love you.
[0:54] - Hi.
[0:55] - That was a very dramatic introduction.
[0:56] - Ta-da!
[0:57] - It was like, (makes jazzy intro sounds)
[0:59] Let's put on a show!
[1:02] Thank you for having me in.
[1:03] - Thank you so much,
congrats on your new book.
[1:05] - Thank you.
[1:06] - A novel.
[1:07] - A novel, yeah.
[1:07] Yeah, that's my roots.
[1:09] - I know it, no.
[1:10] - Yeah, it's funny 'cause
I think it's very cute
[1:12] when people come up to me and they say,
[1:13] "I loved your first book so much."
[1:15] And I'm like, "I don't think you loved my
[1:18] "tiny, obscure collection
of literary short stories
[1:20] "that I published in 1995. (laughs)
[1:22] "I think you're thinking
- You're really thinking,
[1:24] like my third book.
- "about 'Eat, Pray, Love.'"
[1:25] You're thinking of (mumbles).
[1:26] But I did get my start in fiction
[1:27] and this is my fourth work of fiction.
[1:31] I love it, it's so fun for me.
[1:32] It's my home.
[1:34] - Did you feel like you went back to it
[1:37] or was it just always,
[1:38] and is it fair to say your
wrote a non-fiction book
[1:42] about creativity last time for just...
[1:44] Was that the deviation
and your roots and line?
[1:47] - I guess it's just
like project to project.
[1:50] I don't know, I just follow
the magnet in the sky
[1:53] that tells me what the
next thing to do is.
[1:56] And I don't overthink it too
much about what the genre is.
[2:00] What is the story that I wanna tell?
[2:02] What is the best form in which to tell it?
[2:03] And this is a novel
about promiscuous girls,
[2:06] which is a story I've wanted
to tell for a long time.
[2:08] It's set in New York City
[2:09] in the 1940's in the theater world.
[2:11] But, it's really a book about
[2:14] girls behaving really
recklessly with their sexuality
[2:17] and not being ruined by it,
[2:18] which is not an easy book to find
[2:20] in the annals of Western history.
[2:22] Because normally,
- Yeah.
[2:24] - the sensual girls
[2:24] are ruined.
- Did you write this
[2:25] as an antidote to all?
- I did.
[2:26] - Okay, interesting.
- Yeah.
[2:28] It's like a palate cleanser
from "Anne Karenina." (laughs)
[2:30] It's like, "Guess what?"
[2:32] 'Cause I feel like all those books are...
[2:34] I love all those books, "Anna Karenina"
[2:35] and all the Henry James books
[2:38] and Emma Bovary and Hedda Gabler.
[2:40] And there's this whole history of books
[2:41] about ruined women,
[2:43] ending in disgrace because they dared
[2:45] to have sensual desire.
[2:46] And I'm like, "So unfair."
[2:48] It's like, one orgasm and then
[2:50] you're under the wheels
of the train, you know?
[2:51] So I wanted to write a book celebrating
[2:54] how you can do very stupid and reckless
[2:57] sensual things and
actually survive yourself
[2:59] and turn into a really interesting,
[3:01] seasoned older woman, which is
[3:03] what this book's about.
[3:04] - Can we make logical
extensions from that?
[3:07] Or is it just about sexuality?
[3:08] What's your point here?
[3:09] Is it just the sexuality part?
[3:11] - It's...
[3:12] How do you become yourself?
[3:14] That's also what the book is about.
[3:16] - [Chase] Yeah.
- You know, it's about
[3:17] a young girl moving to New York
[3:17] in 1940, when she's 19.
[3:20] - [Chase] After failing out of college?
[3:21] - After dropping out of college.
[3:23] I moved to New York in 1986 when I was 19,
[3:25] not to drop out of college.
[3:26] But, I know the feeling of being
[3:29] young, hungry, yearning, craving.
[3:31] And wanting to know, where are my people?
[3:32] Where is my tribe and where am I gonna go
[3:34] to become this thing that I wanna be,
[3:36] and I don't even know what it is yet?
[3:38] But I'm drawn, somehow, to this metropolis
[3:40] or that metropolis or this
answer or that answer.
[3:42] So, it's a coming-of-age book as well.
[3:44] - There's a line in there
[3:47] and I might get one or two words wrong,
[3:48] but it was remarkable to me.
[3:51] "You can only move to New York
[3:53] "as a young woman once."
[3:55] - Yeah.
[3:56] You just get to move to New York
[3:57] for the first time in your life
[3:58] once in your life. (laughs)
[4:00] And, it's a big deal.
- [Chase] Yeah.
[4:01] It's a big, big deal.
[4:02] - So, what parts of the book are
[4:09] memoir-driven?
- [Elizabeth] Yeah.
[4:11] - And, is it just weaving
in and out of your life?
[4:14] Or, is it specifically fiction?
[4:17] - It's fiction because it's a novel but
[4:20] if you want to know who I am, read it.
[4:23] That's what I would say
about all of my novels.
[4:25] Because there's an adage and
I think it's wise and true,
[4:29] that if you wanna write an honest memoir,
[4:30] write a novel.
[4:31] And the reason is, you're not
[4:33] protecting yourself from anything.
[4:35] So you get to actually tell,
[4:38] if not the actual letter
of the lost story,
[4:40] the feeling.
[4:41] This book was about
what it felt like for me
[4:44] to be in my twenties.
[4:45] It doesn't matter that it's in the 1940's
[4:47] and they're both showgirls
[4:48] in the New York City theater world.
[4:49] It's, I know what that
feels like to be that girl.
[4:52] And that's something that I wanted
[4:54] to revisit and recreate.
[4:55] - Why that as the backdrop?
[4:57] Was that because it was a time where
[5:00] all of these things were more taboo?
[5:02] Or, why did you choose?
[5:03] And the theaters and the
theater world, Vivian.
[5:06] Actually, I probably
shouldn't say too much
[5:07] about the book 'cause
you should go read it.
[5:09] But, she moves to New York and she gets
[5:10] rubbed up in the theater world
[5:12] because of her Aunt Peg.
[5:13] Is it theater and creativity because that
[5:16] connotes a specific something that
[5:18] you wanted about the character?
[5:20] Give me your thoughts.
[5:21] - You know, you're on it.
[5:22] You got it.
[5:23] I mean, first of all, it's
New York City in the 1940's.
[5:25] And that to me, just feels like
[5:26] the most impossibly glamorous moment
[5:28] of my city's history.
[5:31] I love the New York that I moved to,
[5:32] but there's always a shadow of a New York
[5:34] that used to be there
[5:35] that I've always been fascinated with.
[5:37] So, New York during the war is a really
[5:39] moment for me, it's also a really
[5:41] interesting moment for women in New York.
[5:42] Particularly, because they were working.
[5:44] The men were all gone.
[5:45] And so, all these social
mores that had existed
[5:48] that were were really limiting to women,
[5:49] were gone.
[5:50] When the men left, so did the mores.
[5:53] So there used to be rules like,
[5:54] a respectable girl cannot
walk down the street
[5:56] after a certain time of evening,
[5:58] if she's not on the arm
of a respectable man.
[6:00] Well, there weren't any then.
[6:02] So all of a sudden, these women were free.
[6:04] And they had jobs
working in the naval yard
[6:06] and they were earning good money.
[6:07] And there was just this moment
[6:09] of freedom and opening,
it closed after that.
[6:11] The '50s came, the men came back.
[6:14] And the women
- [Chase] McCarthyism, yeah.
[6:14] - were sent back home,
[6:15] to wear big dresses and pearls
[6:17] and wait for their husbands to come home.
[6:18] But, there was this period during the war.
[6:20] And there's a line in the
book where Vivian says,
[6:22] "One thing that I learned
with my girlfriends,
[6:24] "was that when women are
together with no men around,
[6:27] "a woman doesn't have to be
this thing or that thing.
[6:29] "She can just be."
[6:30] And I feel like New York
in the '40s was a time
[6:32] when there were a lot of women
[6:33] who could just be.
[6:34] And that's an aspirational
thing for me, too.
[6:37] What would it be like to be a woman
[6:38] who could just be?
[6:38] - Just be.
[6:39] - Just be.
[6:40] Not have to be a thing, just be.
[6:42] - And does that come out of,
[6:45] going back to the comment earlier
[6:48] about this being an antidote,
[6:50] is implicit in that...
[6:52] That in this book, you can just be.
[6:55] Is that also antidotal to
[6:59] the world that we're in today?
[7:01] Where, we have to be,
[7:03] you know, you can list
a long list of things
[7:05] of what we're supposed to be.
[7:06] And we're supposed to
dress like and look like
[7:08] and wear and talk and walk?
[7:10] - How many free people do you know?
[7:12] Like, truly free?
[7:13] - [Chase] Very few.
[7:14] - Yeah, me neither.
[7:15] - And how many relaxed people do you know?
[7:18] - Also, very few.
[7:19] - How many relaxed women have you ever met
[7:20] in your entire life?
[7:22] - Handful.
[7:23] - Yeah. (laughs)
[7:24] Right?
[7:25] That's what I'm into.
[7:27] What would it be?
[7:28] And this is the question that I'm living
[7:29] into my own life as well.
[7:31] I think the most revolutionary thing
[7:35] that a woman could be,
in this world or any,
[7:37] is relaxed.
[7:39] So, my book is largely
about a woman becoming that.
[7:42] I think, if you're gonna meet one, ever,
[7:45] she's likely to be older.
[7:47] Considerably older, where
it just gets to point
[7:48] where they're like,
"Oh, fuck it." (laughs)
[7:50] - (laughs)
[7:52] - "I just can't anymore.
[7:53] "You know, like I used to, eh, I can't."
[7:56] You know, there's a certain
age that a woman will get to.
[7:57] And I feel like I'm on the brink of it,
[7:59] but I'm not quite there yet.
[8:00] But my greatest aspiration,
aside from being...
[8:04] My really greatest aspiration,
[8:05] which is to be love in
every room that I'm in.
[8:08] My other aspiration is to be
[8:10] the most relaxed person
in every room that I'm in.
[8:12] - [Chase] Wow.
- And to actually
[8:14] show women what it might look
like to be at ease. (laughs)
[8:18] - Is that a response to an earlier
[8:20] and different time in your life?
[8:22] - Well, I've been a
really high-vibrationally
[8:24] anxious person my whole life.
[8:25] But I also see that everyone is.
[8:28] And this is also a moment
in history where I think
[8:31] anxiety is nearly universal.
[8:33] - It's just peak.
- Peak.
[8:35] Everywhere in the world,
everywhere in the world.
[8:37] I mean, it's a product of westernization.
[8:39] And it's a product of, like
when I first went to Bali
[8:41] 15, 20 years ago, it wasn't like that.
[8:44] I'm there now, Balinese
people are stressed now.
[8:46] I was like, "We have exported this.
[8:47] "It's a fucking virus."
[8:48] Stress is this virus that has somehow
[8:52] colonized the world and
it's killing everybody.
[8:54] And there's really, really good
[8:56] empirical reason for it.
[8:57] I mean, we are in the
approaching Armageddon.
[9:00] Welcome to the catastrophe
[9:01] of a dying planet.
- Yeah, my God.
[9:02] - And the dumpster fire that is politics.
[9:04] All of that is true.
[9:06] And if you walk around in this world
[9:07] as every in a woman's body,
that's all heightened.
[9:09] 'Cause you're always sort
of in a sense of danger.
[9:13] And yet, there's some stubborn
part of me that's like,
[9:15] "Yeah, but what if I just didn't
[9:17] "drink your anxiety lemonade?
[9:20] "And what if I found my own
way to be in my own skin,
[9:25] "where I was okay always, no matter what?
[9:27] "Wouldn't that be somethin'?" (laughs)
[9:30] - [Elizabeth] Wouldn't that actually
[9:31] really be somethin'?
[9:33] - How's that going?
[9:33] - It's going better than
it's ever gone in my life.
[9:36] - We're meeting today for the first time.
[9:38] You greeted me with a huge hug,
[9:40] we've been friends for a long time.
[9:42] Is that part of the universe
[9:44] that you're trying to lean into?
[9:46] - I mean, that's kinda just
- Is that just natural?
[9:47] - what I'm...
- Me, too.
[9:48] - I'm like, basically
golden retriever. (laughs)
[9:49] - (laughs)
[9:51] I've been described as
that, so we're the same.
[9:53] And we share the same birthday.
[9:54] We just figured that out.
- I know,
[9:54] we're super
- Yes, it's right.
[9:56] - That's right.
- sensitive Cancerians.
[9:56] We just wish everyone would be
[9:57] in a pile together on the floor.
[9:58] So, that's my nature.
- [Chase] (laughs)
[10:01] - Why is everyone not hugging
[10:03] all the time?
- [Chase] That's right.
[10:04] - But, that's my nature.
[10:05] But to feel comfortable and relaxed,
[10:09] it takes a lot of really radical,
[10:11] it's an interesting pathway.
[10:13] It takes foundational,
unbelievable honesty.
[10:17] You have to kind of be telling
the truth all the time.
[10:21] Which is weird, because you
think that wouldn't be relaxing.
[10:24] But what it does in the end,
[10:25] is it gives you a lot more time and space
[10:27] to not be doing the hustle.
[10:32] That's a line I'm guided by,
[10:34] is that grace can take you places
[10:35] where hustling can't.
[10:37] And at the center of grace,
[10:39] is just this integrity
of great truth-telling.
[10:42] This isn't working for me, this thing,
[10:44] this situation, say no.
[10:46] But saying it just like, "It's okay."
[10:48] It's like, "Yeah, you can
ask, but no." (laughs)
[10:51] I spend most of my day saying no.
[10:53] That's a large part of me,
[10:54] learning how to be relaxed.
[10:56] Just say, "Nope."
[10:57] - When you're talking truth,
[11:01] is that truth to yourself?
[11:03] Is that truth to other,
presumably it's both,
[11:05] but to what degree did
this start to take shape?
[11:10] Is it what you realized, that you were
[11:12] a better self when you
started talking truth
[11:15] to yourself first?
[11:16] And then manifest itself outwardly?
[11:18] Or was it, you had to start being really
[11:21] honest with people about
external commitments
[11:23] and that gave you the
space and the freedom
[11:24] to get internal?
[11:26] - Well, you should definitely try to have
[11:29] a completely honest relationship
[11:31] with at least one person in your life.
[11:32] And probably best if
it's yourself. (laughs)
[11:35] It's a good place to start.
[11:39] I can't speak anybody else's truth.
[11:41] I was guided by this,
[11:44] really schooled in this,
intimately for years
[11:46] in my relationship with my partner Rayya,
[11:49] who died a year and a half ago.
[11:51] Before we were together as a couple,
[11:52] we were best friends and she had been
[11:54] a heroin addict and a speedball junkie
[11:57] on the Lower East Side,
[11:59] in Rikers Island and years
[12:01] living on the streets and prisons.
[12:03] She'd just had this really
horrific, brutal early life.
[12:06] And she ended up,
astonishingly, getting clean
[12:09] and staying clean for 19 years.
[12:13] And her path to that was,
of course, truth-telling,
[12:15] which is the cure for addiction.
[12:16] Not cure, but treatment.
[12:19] And she embodied it in
this really remarkable way.
[12:22] And she had an adage.
[12:24] And she was the person in the world
[12:25] I was always most relaxed around
[12:26] because she only every told the truth.
[12:27] She always knew where you were.
[12:30] We never had to guess.
[12:31] And everyone in the room was safe,
[12:32] 'cause Rayya was always telling the truth.
[12:34] Whatever bullshit else was going on,
[12:36] there was one center of very dense
[12:39] gravitational truth-telling
always happening.
[12:42] But the line that she lived by,
[12:43] and she passed it to me.
[12:45] And now, I live by it because I can't not,
[12:47] is she used to say, "The truth has legs.
[12:51] "It's the only thing that's gonna be left
[12:52] "standing in the room
at the end of the day."
[12:54] Everything else will blow up,
[12:55] everything else will disintegrate,
[12:56] everything else will dissolve into drama.
[12:58] The truth is where you're going to end up,
[13:00] inevitably.
[13:02] So since it's where we're going to end up,
[13:05] why don't we just start with it?
[13:06] - And then save time?
- And save the drama.
[13:09] Let's just
- Now I get the time comment.
[13:11] Yeah.
- start with it.
[13:13] I've repeated that with
people so many times
[13:15] where I'm like, "Well, why
don't we just begin with it?"
[13:18] Create a judgment-free
zone, start with it.
[13:21] And it saves your life, because it saves
[13:25] so much pain and agony and drama.
[13:27] If there's pain to be
had, let's just do it now.
[13:30] And that's been transformative to me,
[13:32] and actually has made me
be a more relaxed person.
[13:35] I think when I was
younger, I used to think,
[13:38] "I can't tell the truth
because the world isn't safe.
[13:42] "It's not a safe place for the truth
[13:44] "or for my truth."
[13:45] And now, I've realized, you make the world
[13:46] a safe place for you
by telling truth in it.
[13:49] That's how your world becomes safe,
[13:51] is through your own honesty.
[13:53] - When did you start that process?
[13:56] - Around the time I turned 30.
[13:58] Because, the first major
truth that I had to tell,
[14:00] the first truth that I
didn't tell for a long time
[14:03] and didn't know how to tell and thought
[14:05] that birds would drop dead out of the sky
[14:06] and rivers would run
backwards if I said it,
[14:09] was that I didn't want
to be married anymore
[14:11] and I didn't want to have a baby.
[14:13] And I had got married very young at 24
[14:17] and had promised my
then-husband that when I was 30,
[14:20] I would settle down and
stop being a traveler
[14:23] and have a baby and buy a house.
[14:26] And instead, I lost my mind. (laughs)
[14:29] - [Chase] And 30 came and that wasn't...
[14:30] - I lost my mind because I couldn't,
[14:33] what ended up happening and what will
[14:34] end up happening when
you don't tell the truth,
[14:36] is that your body will break down.
[14:39] My physical body actually broke.
[14:40] My mental health broke down
[14:41] and my physical health broke down.
[14:44] I couldn't sleep, I couldn't
eat, I lost 20 pounds.
[14:46] This is what not-truth does to you.
[14:50] I mean, you get to a
place where it's like,
[14:52] "Die, or tell the truth."
[14:54] And I finally did.
[14:56] And instead of making me
die, it brought me to life.
[15:01] And he survived it.
[15:03] And if I had fuckin' said
it two years earlier,
[15:06] it would have been a much
greater gift to him as well.
[15:08] I cost him two years of his life while I
[15:11] couldn't say those words.
[15:13] So, that was my biggest lesson
[15:14] in, you're not doing anybody any favors
[15:17] by holding this in.
[15:19] If there's something that
you know about yourself
[15:21] that if, an intimate
person in your life knew,
[15:24] they would change their whole life,
[15:25] they should know.
[15:27] You're not doing them any favors
[15:28] by not telling them that.
[15:29] The sooner you tell them that,
[15:30] the sooner that they have
agency over their life
[15:33] again to figure out what
they need to do now.
[15:35] And that's been a game-changer.
[15:37] - That's a power pellet that I just
[15:38] got from you right there. (laughs)
[15:40] - [Elizabeth] (laughs)
[15:41] - I'm just like, "Uh-oh." (laughs)
[15:43] - It's intense.
- [Chase] Wow.
[15:45] - I think a lot of times,
we lie and dissemble
[15:48] and manipulate, especially
Cancerians like us
[15:51] because we're people-pleasers.
[15:52] But when I actually
discovered what the real,
[15:55] what you should actually
call a people-pleaser,
[15:58] is a people-manipulator.
[16:01] And that's what a people-pleaser does,
[16:02] is they manipulate people
for their own safety.
[16:04] - Ah-ha.
[16:05] - They're not pleasing other people.
[16:06] They're keeping themselves
perceived as safe.
[16:09] And you're not doing the
other person any favors
[16:12] by doing that, they should
know who they're talking to.
[16:15] And they should know
what's actually going on.
[16:17] - What role does this play in creativity?
[16:21] "Big Magic," your previous book,
[16:23] was a lot about fear.
[16:24] Opens talking about
how you were afraid of,
[16:28] I think you basically say you're afraid
[16:29] of everything.
- [Elizabeth] Everything.
[16:30] - As a young person.
- Yeah, afraid
[16:32] of everything.
- And you had parents,
[16:34] was it your mom that eventually,
[16:38] I think you say, kicked you
in the butt or something?
[16:39] - She never indulged my fear
for a single minute. (laughs)
[16:42] - (laughs)
[16:43] - She was like, "How did I get this kid?"
[16:45] This terrified bundle of
nerves is what I was born into.
[16:50] Truth-telling and creativity,
[16:52] that's an interesting question.
[16:53] I haven't thought about that.
[16:54] I think
[16:57] I was always a creative person.
[16:59] It was often an escape for me.
[17:01] It was a place to go and run to and hide.
[17:04] I liked my imagined worlds
better than the real one.
[17:06] - In school, in playtime?
- In school,
[17:09] at home, I grew up on a farm.
[17:11] There was a lot of work to be done.
[17:13] I grew up with really
pragmatic, responsible people.
[17:15] There was a lot of intense
responsibility put on me
[17:18] from an early age.
[17:18] And so, escaping into a dream world
[17:21] was way preferable to
being here in this place.
[17:24] In this very cold farmhouse
with a lot of chores
[17:27] and a lot of jobs
[17:29] and a lot of expectation that you should
[17:30] be able to do everything already.
[17:33] So for me, I think my early
creativity was escape.
[17:36] But I think, as you're saying, I'm just
[17:37] kind of spit balling as you're
saying this, but I think,
[17:41] people ask me all the time
[17:42] why "Eat, Pray, Love" was so successful.
[17:44] And I always say, "I don't know."
[17:46] But it could be that
it's the story of a woman
[17:49] learning how to tell the truth.
[17:51] It's a story like that, is what happens
[17:53] in the first pages of "Eat, Pray, Love."
[17:55] That, here's this woman
sobbing on the bathroom floor
[17:57] for the 90th consecutive night
in the middle of the night,
[18:00] unable to say the words,
[18:01] "I don't want to be married anymore."
[18:03] Who, finally says those words.
[18:05] And that is the beginning
of my actual adult life.
[18:10] So I think maybe that
creative truth-telling
[18:13] can be liberating for a lot of people,
[18:14] not just for the person doing it.
[18:16] - And does it, for you,
did the truth-telling
[18:19] unlock a new world of possibilities,
[18:22] a new world of creativity?
[18:24] What do you feel like it unlocked?
[18:26] - It unlocked two years of
highly medicated depression.
[18:30] (laughs)
[18:31] - So you got that to look forward to,
[18:33] all this truth-telling, folks.
- The way is hard!
[18:35] The way is hard.
[18:36] Joseph Campbell says, "You have to give up
[18:37] "the life that you planned,
[18:38] "to have the one that's waiting for you."
[18:40] But when you give up the
life you have planned,
[18:41] and you don't know what's waiting for you,
[18:43] - That's scary.
[18:44] - There's an interim where there's
[18:45] no ground under your feet.
[18:46] And, I also love that the great, great
[18:49] spiritual writer, Stephen
Mitchell, and translator,
[18:51] who's translate the
Bhagavad Gita beautifully,
[18:53] and the Tao Te Ching and who's
a Zen practitioner himself.
[18:56] And he says, "The way, the great way
[19:00] "involves this.
[19:01] "First, the rug gets
pulled out from under you.
[19:04] "And then the floor gets pulled out
[19:05] "from under the rug.
[19:06] "And then the ground gets pulled out
[19:08] "from under the floor.
[19:09] "And now, you're getting somewhere."
[19:11] "Now, you're getting somewhere.
[19:12] "You're getting somewhere
to the recognition
[19:14] "that there is no ground."
[19:16] There is no ground.
[19:18] And that is the beginning, but it's
[19:21] awful to feel that when you
thought you had security.
[19:25] And you thought you had something fixed
[19:27] and then there's like
(makes surprised sound).
[19:29] You're like
[19:33] a Warner Brothers cartoon character
[19:34] running over a cliff.
[19:36] And all a sudden...
[19:37] - (makes hurried, stepping sounds)
[19:38] - There's that thing
[19:38] that happens!
- Yeah, Wiley Coyote?
[19:39] - Yeah, and your friend
and mine, Bernay and I
[19:42] have talked about how we live in a culture
[19:44] that bandies around this
very easy kind of ideas.
[19:47] "Jump in the net, we'll catch you!"
[19:48] But, all of us know that we've jumped
[19:51] and broken 10 bones,
[19:53] you know?
- [Chase] Bounced, yeah.
[19:54] - Yeah.
- Hard.
[19:55] - Or, not even bounced.
- Or splatted, yeah.
[19:58] - Left an imprint in the cement, you know?
[19:59] And we all know that there are...
[20:03] I'm not sure we come to this
world because it's safe,
[20:05] I'm not sure that it's meant
to be particularly safe.
[20:09] So, I think we do a disservice
[20:11] when we try to inspire people by saying,
[20:13] "Yeah, just do it, man!
[20:14] "Just go for it!"
[20:15] As if there's no
consequences, and no cost,
[20:18] and no difficulty in that.
[20:20] And so, I'm always really careful to say
[20:23] "Yeah,"
- [Chase] Jump in,
[20:24] it's gonna suck.
[20:25] - "Jump," and it sucked
for two years, you know?
[20:27] And then, I slowly,
slowly, excruciatingly,
[20:32] with a lot of help, found my way.
[20:38] And that's how it works.
[20:40] - What's the relationship between...
[20:43] I was struck by something you just said
[20:45] and it made me think of vulnerability.
[20:47] Because there's the floor
there you're gonna hit.
[20:54] Is truth-telling a path to vulnerability,
[20:56] which is a path to something else?
[20:58] Or, what's the relationship between...
[21:02] Because, do you have to be vulnerable
[21:03] to tell the truth?
[21:04] - Yeah!
[21:04] I mean, especially if
you're telling a truth
[21:06] that you are afraid is
going to hurt another person
[21:08] and you're an empath.
[21:09] I mean, that's the most devastating.
[21:13] Those are the most devastating truths
[21:14] I've ever had to tell.
[21:16] And I am an empath, so I'm sitting
[21:20] with you in the pain I just brought to you
[21:24] because of the truth
that I have to tell you.
[21:27] That is the Seventh Circle of Hell for me.
[21:30] - [Chase] (laughs)
[21:31] - And the only reason that I do it,
[21:33] is because life, in all of its grace,
[21:36] has been kind enough to teach
me through brutal lesson,
[21:40] that all the other ways
are worse. (laughs)
[21:45] This is the Seventh Circle of Hell,
[21:47] but all the other things that aren't this
[21:48] are the Eight Circle of Hell.
[21:51] It's the domain of oblivion in which
[21:57] no one is safe.
[21:58] And so, there's a tremendous
faith that has to come
[22:02] in believing that the real
[22:05] is the right way,
[22:07] even if it doesn't look
like it in this moment.
[22:09] And to stop arguing with reality,
[22:13] and to
[22:16] figure out how are we gonna now live
[22:17] in accordance with reality, you know?
[22:20] This is the reality.
[22:22] So now, what are we gonna do?
[22:25] Rather than, let's pretend
this isn't the reality.
[22:28] (laughs)
[22:29] Let me take whatever drugs I have to take
[22:31] to pretend that this isn't the reality.
[22:32] You go do whatever you have to do to hide,
[22:34] to pretend that this isn't the reality.
[22:36] And then, let's just see where that leads.
[22:40] One thing I've discovered about myself is
[22:42] that's a grace,
(sirens in background)
[22:44] and it's horrible as it's happening,
[22:46] my being, my actual being,
will not allow me to stay
[22:49] in a situation where I'm
out of my integrity anymore.
[22:52] I will break down,
(sirens blare louder)
[22:55] mentally, emotionally,
physically, and spiritually.
[22:57] And I will be back on that bathroom floor.
[22:59] (sirens fade)
And eventually, I'll be
[23:00] beaten down to the point where
I have to start telling...
[23:02] And I'm like, "Fuck, do I have
[23:04] "to tell the truth again?" (laughs)
[23:05] - And now, you're just like,
[23:06] "I'm short circling that,
[23:07] "I'm not gonna..."
- I thought I did
[23:09] this already, I mean, that's the thing.
[23:11] You think you did it once and you're done.
[23:15] But life, again, in all her grace,
[23:17] is like, "Now, I'm gonna give you
[23:18] "another chance."
- Here's a gift.
[23:20] - Here's a gift.
[23:21] Now's another chance for
you to be really brave
[23:25] and to know that the only way out,
[23:26] is through honesty, do it again.
[23:29] Do it again, do it again.
[23:32] And it's getting easier, honestly.
[23:34] Because I trust it now, I trust it.
[23:37] - You mentioned, stepping into
[23:39] some of this truth-telling,
[23:41] at the age of 30,
[23:44] what role did Rayya play in...
[23:46] Is this another, you did
a couple of the cycles
[23:50] that we just described between 30 and 46?
[23:54] And, your experience with the partner
[23:58] that you loved dying from cancer?
[24:04] Do you feel like you finally learned
[24:04] the truth?
- You know what it is,
[24:05] is that...
[24:08] So, she's the most important
person of my history.
[24:13] She was the great love of my life
[24:16] and also my great teacher
and my great friend.
[24:23] And the reason that I gravitated to her,
[24:27] and it took years for that
[24:28] to develop.
- These are friends
[24:29] for a long time?
- We were friends
[24:30] for a long time, we were
acquaintances for a long time.
[24:31] And then we became
friends, and then we became
[24:33] dear friends, and then
we became best friends,
[24:34] and then, for about four
or five years there,
[24:36] I didn't even know what to call her.
[24:38] I just called her my person.
[24:39] Even though I was married,
[24:41] and very loyal and
faithful in my marriage,
[24:43] this was my person.
[24:43] My person, to me, meant, who do I call?
[24:46] Who's my first phone
call in every emergency?
[24:48] Who's my first phone
call when I need advice?
[24:50] Who's my first phone call
when I wanna celebrate?
[24:52] Who knows everything about me?
[24:56] Who is the one person
in the world who I feel
[24:57] completely safe around?
[24:58] And, it was Rayya.
[24:59] And the panic, the existential
panic and terror and horror
[25:03] that I experienced at her diagnosis,
[25:06] knowing that that person...
[25:08] I mean, I can still feel in my body
[25:10] what it felt like for all those years,
[25:12] when Rayya would walk into a room.
[25:14] And my whole body would relax
[25:15] because I would be like,
[25:17] "Rayya's here, it's all gonna be okay.
[25:19] "She's got it."
[25:20] 'Cause she was so tough and strong, also.
[25:22] And so loving.
[25:24] In every room that she ever walked into,
[25:26] the strongest person in the room.
[25:27] And so I just wanted to be around her
[25:30] so I could feel that safety.
[25:32] And what I realized,
[25:35] I got this panic the
first year of her illness.
[25:37] I had this urgent, craving
panic where I was like,
[25:40] "I have to download you.
[25:43] "I have to download you
because I don't know
[25:44] "how to do life without you.
[25:46] "And, I need to learn quickly."
[25:50] I thought I had time to
learn how to be like her,
[25:51] but I was like, "I gotta
get it all in me now!"
[25:54] Because no one else can...
- [Chase] That's right.
[25:55] - Yeah!
- Help.
[25:56] - I basically became
an addict of wanting to
[25:59] shoot, smoke, inhale, eat, imbibe her.
[26:04] And what ended up happening, is that
[26:09] as she got sicker,
[26:11] and as her own terror and fear grew,
[26:16] and she couldn't take care
of me anymore of that way,
[26:21] I had to become her to take care of her.
[26:26] And what I've realized,
[26:28] my beloved friend, Martha Beck,
[26:31] said after Rayya died,
[26:33] "What I've seen happen to
you two over the years,
[26:35] "is now, she's braided into you.
[26:37] "And you have an essential
DNA strand of Rayya now."
[26:40] And that is the download.
[26:44] But it didn't come the way
[26:46] I thought it was gonna come.
[26:47] It didn't come from her
teaching it to me, empirically.
[26:51] It came from me having to step up.
[26:54] That's what I said at her
memorial service, too.
[26:56] 'Cause she that role in
a lot of people's lives.
[26:57] There were probably 10
people who would have said
[26:59] she was the most important
person in their life
[27:00] that they couldn't live without.
[27:01] - [Chase] Wow.
[27:02] - And I said, "Well,
what's now asked of us
[27:04] "is that we have to
[27:06] "step up and we all have to be that, now."
[27:10] And I find that I can truly say that I am.
[27:13] - Yes.
[27:14] You're, what's looked from the outside,
[27:17] as just this amazing,
courageous, stepping into
[27:22] the sharing-of-the-process was
[27:26] so powerful from where I was sitting.
[27:29] Do you feel like that was
part of your assignment?
[27:31] Was that like this process
that you were talking about,
[27:34] weaving this strand of DNA through,
[27:36] for her last weeks and months?
[27:41] I don't know.
[27:42] Is that part of your assignment?
[27:44] - Yeah. (laughs)
- [Chase] (laughs)
[27:46] I think it's always been
part of my assignment.
[27:48] Okay, maybe I think
assignment is grandiose
[27:50] because I'm not sure.
[27:52] I don't know how the universe works.
[27:54] I'm not sure I know what my assignment is.
[27:55] But I will say this.
[27:56] I will say that
[28:00] the distance in time and space
[28:01] between the moment when
I learned something
[28:05] that helps and saves me,
[28:07] and how much time I can allow
[28:09] before I desperately
wanna put it out there
[28:12] in case somebody that day needs it,
[28:15] that's a very short time span for me.
[28:18] And I feel that I have to.
[28:20] And I don't feel that I have to
[28:21] necessarily out of responsibility to them.
[28:24] Because again, I don't
know if it's useful.
[28:27] I just know that, it starts
to hurt me to not share it.
[28:31] It actually feels like pain.
[28:33] I remember my guru in India used to say,
[28:35] "Any talent that you
have that you do not use
[28:38] "becomes pain."
[28:40] But I also think any wisdom
and insight that you have
[28:43] that you do not share, becomes pain.
[28:46] Why in the world would I not share it?
[28:49] I know so intimately
what it's like to suffer.
[28:51] I know so intimately,
deeply in my bones and skin,
[28:54] what it's like to not
know what to fucking do.
[28:59] If I've been given one
little glimmer of light,
[29:01] why in the world would I be like,
[29:04] "You want this?" (laughs)
[29:05] - I got somethin' for ya, take it!
[29:07] - I've been so helped
by people who have been
[29:09] generous enough to learn in public.
[29:11] You know, I think learning in public is
[29:13] such a generous thing for people to do.
[29:15] Because, we look to it and we're like,
[29:17] "Bernay learns in public,
[29:18] "Glennon learns in public,
[29:19] "Cheryl Strayed learned in public."
[29:21] My friend, Rob Bell, Martha Beck,
[29:22] they're all brave enough
to learn in front of us
[29:25] so that we can maybe get something.
[29:28] - There's a strong creative thread
[29:29] in a lot of the people
that you just talked about.
[29:31] And I'm still trying to connect, maybe
[29:36] poorly, but to connect creativity to that.
[29:39] Is that a mechanism for teaching?
[29:41] Is your ability to write,
your ability to write
[29:44] not just a novel or a non-fiction book,
[29:46] but a Instagram post, is
that your public teaching?
[29:52] Is art your vehicle for teaching?
[29:54] Or, what role does
creativity play in that?
[29:56] - Yeah, I mean, I guess it is.
[29:58] I didn't plan it to be.
[30:00] - [Chase] No problem,
you can take that away.
[30:02] - (laughs)
- [Chase] (laughs)
[30:04] - No, I didn't plan it to be.
[30:06] I did it because I wanted to do it.
[30:08] And I still do it 'cause I wanna do it.
[30:09] And I still feel,
[30:12] I still truly do not
feel the slightest bit
[30:14] of responsibility to my
readers or my followers at all.
[30:17] And that's why I'm so relaxed with them
[30:19] and why I love them.
[30:20] If I felt responsible to them,
[30:21] I think it would be really heavy on me
[30:23] and, weirdly, on them.
[30:24] But I feel like,
[30:26] I don't feel responsibility to you guys.
[30:28] I love you.
[30:30] I love you.
[30:31] But, I don't feel the
slightest bit of responsibility
[30:33] to you so that means
[30:35] I get to do whatever I want, creatively.
[30:37] And that you, my readers, get to decide
[30:40] whether you wanna come with me.
[30:41] Which is why 12 million
people came with me
[30:44] for "Eat, Pray, Love."
[30:45] - [Chase] That's bonkers.
- But when I wrote
[30:46] my novel, "The Signature
of All Things" about a
[30:47] 19th century botanical
virgin who studies moss,
[30:50] a couple hundred thousand
people came with me on that.
[30:52] But, it's elective, you know what I mean?
[30:55] They don't have to.
[30:57] And I don't have to write,
"Eat, Pray, Love," again.
[30:59] You know, everyone's free.
[31:01] - [Chase] That was part of your TED Talk,
[31:02] right?
- Everyone's free, yeah.
[31:03] - When you really realize
that the most popular
[31:06] piece of work that you've
written may be behind you.
[31:09] But, stepping into whatever's next for you
[31:12] has to be authentically you, right?
[31:13] - It's gotta be.
- You can't chase that.
[31:14] - I can't do that again.
[31:15] I don't know how I did it the first time.
[31:18] But the teaching came kind
of after "Eat, Pray, Love,"
[31:20] where I felt like people...
[31:22] I think, if you're called to be a teacher,
[31:26] you'll know because people
will keep asking you stuff.
[31:30] That's what happened! (laughs)
- That's the most simple
[31:31] definition of a teacher, right?
[31:33] - People will gravitate and be like,
[31:34] "Hey, what do you think about this?"
[31:36] And at first, I was really
[31:39] I was like, "No, I'm just
a dumb girl went through,
[31:43] "I can't!" (makes silly, unsure noises)
[31:44] But I feel like, after a certain time,
[31:47] if people keep asking you something,
[31:48] it's really disingenuous
to keep being like,
[31:51] "I don't know." (makes
silly, unsure noises)
[31:54] Did you like that sound?
[31:55] - (laughs) Yeah, that was a good one!
[31:56] - [Elizabeth] I think it's
- You captioned that, right?
[31:57] We gotta check.
- more respectful to actually
[32:02] take a swing at the question, you know?
[32:04] And say, "I'll take a swing at it."
[32:06] And if people ask me questions that
[32:08] are just beyond my pay grade,
- [Chase] (laughs)
[32:10] - I'll send them elsewhere.
[32:11] If people ask me about,
[32:13] how to work in the corporate world.
[32:15] I'll be like, "Go talk to Bernay,
[32:16] "I've never had a job." (laughs)
[32:19] I was a bartender, I have no idea.
[32:21] If they ask me about
parenting, I'm like...
[32:24] "Glennon's right over here."
[32:26] So, I feel like we all
shuffle ourselves around
[32:28] to each other as well.
[32:29] Like, "This is probably a
better question for you."
[32:33] - I wanna go back to that fear part
[32:34] that you opened "Big Magic" with.
[32:37] The connection between creativity and fear
[32:40] for you.
[32:43] Do you feel like that's common?
[32:47] Why did you write "Big Magic?"
[32:50] - I wrote "Big Magic," actually, because
[32:52] people kept asking me
questions about creativity.
[32:54] Especially, after I gave that TED Talk.
[32:57] And that is the one book that I could say
[32:59] that I honestly wrote,
[33:00] precisely as a self-help book.
[33:02] Because it's the one
subject where I feel like,
[33:05] "I actually know about this."
[33:08] I'm completely comfortable talking to you
[33:10] and giving you advice about creativity.
[33:11] I've been doing this my whole life.
[33:13] And I have a relationship with it
[33:14] that's a lot less tormented than most
[33:16] of the relationships that I see people
[33:18] having with creativity.
[33:19] So, let me be an expert
here, you know? (laughs)
[33:22] Let me put on an expert
hat and actually say,
[33:25] "Yeah, I'm a middle-aged woman.
[33:26] "I've been doin' this a long time.
[33:27] "Let me tell you some
stuff that I've learned."
[33:29] But the fear piece is, I think,
[33:33] intensely sensitive people
tend to experience fear
[33:36] and everything at a heightened level.
[33:38] I experience everything,
I've experienced love,
[33:40] and passion and lust
and sorrow and despair.
[33:45] I drop something on my
foot and I experience
[33:47] it at a high level.
[33:48] It's all an opera around me.
[33:50] (laughs)
[33:51] So the fear is just part of that.
[33:53] But, my saving grace in the whole world
[33:56] and in myself, is that
afraid as I am, and I am.
[34:01] I'm 1% more curious than I am afraid.
[34:04] Thank God when they doled
out all these traits to me,
[34:07] they gave me a dose of
curiosity that was just...
[34:10] All it has to be, is this
much bigger than fear.
[34:13] It doesn't have to be a lot bigger,
[34:15] it just has to be enough bigger
[34:17] that it's worth it to take the risk.
[34:20] 'Cause you're more interested
than you are scared.
[34:23] And that's why, I think, that my
[34:25] working definition of creative living,
[34:28] not creativity in general,
not meaning you have to
[34:30] do watercolors or take a macrame class.
[34:33] If you wanna live what I
think of as a creative life,
[34:35] my definition of a
creative life, is any life
[34:38] where your decisions are routinely based
[34:41] more strongly on your
curiosity than your fear
[34:43] every single day,
[34:45] in all your realms of your life.
[34:47] And then, your life itself
will become a work of art.
[34:50] And, it doesn't matter
what you make or produce
[34:52] or weave or influence, it's just that you
[34:55] will create a life that
will be really interesting
[34:58] for you.
[34:58] Which is,
- Beautiful.
[35:00] - the person who you want to keep
[35:01] the most entertained.
- Yeah, right.
[35:04] That's beautiful, beautiful.
- I would imagine.
[35:07] - You said that you were very comfortable
[35:09] giving advice on creativity?
- [Elizabeth] Yeah.
[35:10] - So, knowing who's on
the other side of these...
[35:15] We're in their ears right now,
[35:17] they're watching this
video or listening to us.
[35:19] Without retracing all
the steps of "Big Magic,"
[35:21] 'cause that's a 260-page book or whatever,
[35:24] what is the advice that
you have for people?
[35:26] 'Cause there's a lot of folks out there
[35:27] who are stuck or blocked.
[35:28] Or, they go from zero to one trying to
[35:31] figure it out from the beginning.
[35:33] Or, they identify as
creator and then they're
[35:35] trying to go from one to 10.
[35:38] - Mercy,
[35:40] I think is the fundamental word
[35:42] that is coming to me as a
short answer to that question.
[35:47] If you want to have a healthy
engagement with creativity,
[35:51] if you want to have a healthy
engagement with yourself,
[35:53] if you wanna have a healthy
engagement with others,
[35:56] mercy has to be at the foundation.
[35:59] Mercy for self, mercy for others,
[36:01] mercy for the inevitable disappointment
[36:04] that you're gonna feel
when you make something,
[36:08] and it's not what you wanted it to be.
[36:11] My beloved friend, Ann
Patchett, the novelist,
[36:14] has this great way of describing this.
[36:16] She says her favorite part
of the creative process
[36:18] is when she's in the dreaming state of it.
[36:20] And she gets to be alone
with the idea for the novel.
[36:23] And it follows her for years,
[36:25] and she's thinking about it.
[36:25] And it's growing in her head.
[36:28] And it's with her when
she's washing dishes.
[36:29] It's with her when she's
going through the car wash.
[36:31] It's with her when she's
at somebody's wedding.
[36:32] She's just constantly
got this lovely dream.
[36:34] And in her imagination, the
thing that she's going to make,
[36:37] she describes it as a
tourmaline butterfly.
[36:39] Like a butterfly made out of gems,
[36:41] that it catches the light so beautifully,
[36:43] it's so exquisite, it's so perfect.
[36:45] This is gonna be the one, right?
[36:47] This is gonna be the
one, that when I make it,
[36:50] I'm gonna actually achieve that
[36:52] platonic ideal of the thing.
[36:54] And it's gonna be so beautiful.
[36:55] And then, she says, the worst
part of the creative process,
[36:58] is day one of making it.
- [Chase] (laughs)
[37:01] - 'Cause what you have to do is
[37:01] - So true.
- pluck the
[37:03] tourmaline butterfly out of the sky,
[37:04] put it on the desk, take a mallet,
[37:07] and smash it into a thousand
pieces and let it go,
[37:09] because it can never exist.
[37:12] And then you make
[37:14] the approximation of your
tourmaline butterfly,
[37:16] which is made out of used chewing gum
[37:19] and baseball cards
[37:22] and twigs and a tin can and a hinge.
[37:26] And you're like, "Here's
my butterfly I made!"
[37:29] It's like
[37:29] - (laughs)
- (makes funny, silly noises)
[37:30] And you're like, "I made
it by myself, look!"
[37:33] "I did it, I did it!"
[37:34] And I think the merciful artist,
[37:37] the merciful creator, the merciful human,
[37:39] is the one who can say, "You know,
[37:42] "no one's ever made one
like that before." (laughs)
[37:45] - Good job, self!
[37:47] - And maybe there's a reason.
[37:48] But, the boring thing would be
[37:51] if we all made tourmaline butterflies.
[37:53] The interesting thing is,
[37:54] truly, no one's ever made
one like that before.
[37:57] And the mercy and the
empathy towards yourself
[38:01] is what gets you...
[38:02] I always say, on day one,
everyone starts day one
[38:04] really excited about their project.
[38:06] Everyone on day two, looks
at what they made on day one
[38:08] and hates themself.
[38:10] The only people who get to day three
[38:12] are the people who have mercy.
[38:14] So beyond anything else.
[38:16] And that is going to be the same
[38:17] whether you are a master or a beginner.
[38:21] Everyone's day three
[38:23] is that's where the rubber meets the road.
[38:25] You're gonna keep going and
keep disappointing yourself,
[38:28] or you're gonna stop.
[38:29] And my suggestion is that you
keep disappointing yourself
[38:31] and be very, very gracious
toward yourself about it.
[38:34] (laughs)
[38:35] - Is that an aspect of bravery
[38:36] or is that curiosity or is it
[38:38] vulnerability?
- It's compassion.
[38:39] - Self-compassion?
- It's compassion.
[38:41] It's compassion, yeah.
[38:42] I mean, it's really the foundation
[38:43] of compassion which says,
[38:46] the imperfect is the perfect, you know?
[38:50] - [Chase] Say more of that.
[38:53] - Well, in a way it's like
the end of the argument.
[38:55] It's the end of the argument
against reality, you know?
[38:59] The reality is,
[39:03] you probably can't make the thing
[39:05] in the way that you dream it.
[39:07] The end of the argument
against the pain of that
[39:10] is, "So what?"
[39:12] Make it anyway.
[39:15] I'm gonna hatch my weird
little steam-punk butterfly.
[39:18] (laughter)
[39:20] - That's pretty good.
[39:21] Tin can, hinges, bubble gum,
baseball cars and duct tape.
[39:25] Did you have duct tape in there, maybe?
[39:26] - I don't know why I
didn't, but yours should!
[39:29] I think that putting yourself
in alignment with reality,
[39:35] rather than in a constant war against it,
[39:37] is actually what compassion is.
[39:39] And that's also how you find
[39:40] compassion for the other,
for the people in your life.
[39:43] Instead of me needing you to constantly be
[39:45] an entirely different
human being than you are,
[39:48] I can put myself in
compassionate alignment
[39:50] with the reality of what you are.
[39:52] I can put myself in
compassionate alignment
[39:54] with the reality of what I am.
[39:55] I wanna be 10 different
things than what I am today.
[39:58] But,
[39:59] this is what we're workin' with.
[40:00] (laughs) You know?
[40:01] This is what we got!
[40:03] This is what we got.
[40:04] Flap, flap.
[40:06] Piece falls off.
[40:08] (makes silly sounds)
[40:09] This is what we got, you know?
[40:10] - How do you do what you do right now?
[40:12] You're just like, truth zingers.
[40:16] Is it just repetition?
[40:17] Of the first time it's hard,
[40:18] the second time it's 10% less hard?
[40:20] The third time, it's...
[40:21] Or 1% less hard?
[40:23] - I don't know if anybody realizes
[40:25] what percentage of my life I spend
[40:28] taking care of my mental health.
[40:30] That's my full-time job.
[40:33] And writing is a hobby
that I do on the side,
[40:36] every once in a while, I write a book.
[40:37] The rest of my life,
[40:40] an enormous percentage of my day
[40:42] is spent managing this
[40:46] neighborhood,
[40:47] warring neighborhood. (laughs)
[40:49] This dysfunctional family that I carry
[40:52] inside of my mind.
[40:55] And everything that I've learned that
[40:57] has any taste of wisdom and grace,
[40:59] is from the front lines of this, you know?
[41:02] And I mean it, today.
[41:06] That's what I was doing
on the plane today,
[41:07] was managing my mental health
[41:08] today.
- [Chase] Wow, wow.
[41:10] - There are practices
that I do every single day
[41:12] in order to keep myself
[41:15] happy and loved and connected.
[41:19] And I do them.
[41:21] I have to save my life every single day.
[41:23] - [Chase] Wow.
- I have
[41:24] very few days off from
trying to save my life.
[41:28] - I have to ask.
- This is very immediate,
[41:29] what I'm talking about.
- Yes.
[41:30] I'm not talking about what you have to do.
[41:33] I'm talking about what I do.
[41:35] - On the way here, yeah.
[41:36] - Yeah. (laughs)
[41:38] - I have to ask,
[41:41] what are the things?
[41:43] And I understand that you're
- No, I don't mind
[41:44] talking about it.
- talking about a whole life.
[41:45] - Because, look, if it helps?
[41:47] - Yeah.
[41:48] Well, there's a lot of people who
[41:49] will take your guidance.
- The most important
[41:51] relationship that I have in my life
[41:53] is a dialog that I launched 20 years ago
[41:56] between me and Love, capital L, Love.
[41:58] That I have continued
nearly everyday of my life,
[42:00] over the last 20 years.
[42:02] And it came in the
deepest depression where,
[42:07] I was in that deep, God-sized hole,
[42:11] of just wanting somebody
[42:14] to comfort me.
[42:15] Wanting somebody to save me.
[42:19] Wanting somebody to make me feel safe
[42:22] and make me feel like it was okay.
[42:24] And I have beautiful people in my life
[42:27] but no one, and I know this for a fact,
[42:29] because I have looked for it.
[42:30] No one can handle that in me. (laughs)
[42:34] Nobody.
[42:36] Because sometimes, people have to sleep.
[42:38] They have to get a sandwich
[42:39] and they have to go to work.
[42:41] And I'm like, "Wait! (laughs)
[42:43] "Where are you going?"
[42:44] Nobody.
[42:46] You have no idea how needy I am.
[42:48] And I do.
[42:49] And this was a period of
my life where I was alone.
[42:52] And so, what I did was,
[42:54] sit down in the middle of the night
[42:56] in my slough of despair,
[42:57] and take out a notebook.
[43:00] And this was this great
leap of imagination.
[43:04] What are the words that I've always
[43:05] wanted to hear somebody say?
[43:07] Can I say it to myself?
[43:09] And, I started writing those words to me.
[43:12] I am right here.
[43:13] I have got you.
[43:15] I will always have you.
[43:16] You are precious unto me.
[43:18] I don't care if you
[43:20] stay depressed for the
entire rest of your life.
[43:22] I still love you.
[43:23] I don't care if you never fix this.
[43:24] I don't care if you never get better.
[43:26] I don't care if never create another,
[43:27] I don't care if you live
in a box under a bridge.
[43:30] I am yours, you are mine.
[43:31] I have got you.
[43:32] You are my boo.
[43:33] I was with you when you were born,
[43:34] I will be with you until after you die.
[43:36] I will never leave you.
[43:37] You are mine, belonging imprint.
[43:39] Belonging love.
[43:41] Love, ownership, forever.
[43:43] You can't tire me out.
[43:45] You can't tire me out,
[43:46] we can do this all night.
[43:48] You will get tired before I do.
[43:49] I love you so much.
[43:50] This is what I've always wanted to hear
[43:52] another human being say.
[43:53] And, it's a little much to ask. (laughs)
[43:54] - Yeah, I'm like...
[43:56] - And so, I've learned to bring it.
[44:01] And when I figured out what that voice is,
[44:04] it's love.
[44:07] It's universal human love.
[44:10] And that is the most important
[44:11] relationship in my entire life.
[44:12] And I write a letter to myself from that
[44:15] every single day of my life.
[44:17] - Is that the number one vehicle,
[44:18] is writing yourself that Love letter,
[44:20] capital L, love?
[44:21] - Yeah.
[44:22] And lots of times, it's
dialogue, you know?
[44:24] And the dialogue will go like, me be like,
[44:26] hysterical, I don't know what to do.
[44:28] It's all falling apart.
[44:30] I've failed again.
[44:31] I've lost again.
[44:32] I'm unlovable, I'm
untenable, I'm unmanageable.
[44:35] I'm back at zero.
[44:37] Help, help, help, help, help.
[44:39] And Love's like, always
says exactly the same thing.
[44:41] Always begins with, "I'm right here.
[44:43] "I'm right here, I'm right here.
[44:44] "I'm right here, I'm with you.
[44:45] "I'm not going anywhere, I've got you."
[44:47] And then, I will say, "What should I do?"
[44:50] And Love will say, "I don't know,
[44:51] "that's not my department.
[44:53] "I just love you."
[44:54] And then, I will say, "Tell
me how this is going to end."
[44:58] And Love will say, "I have no
access to that information,
[45:01] "but I will be with you
through it, whatever it is."
[45:05] And then, I say, "If you
can't tell me what to do,
[45:08] "and you can't tell me
how this is gonna end,
[45:10] "what the fuck use are you?"
[45:12] And Love says, "I am company
for you in your darkest hours
[45:14] "and I always will be.
[45:16] "And that is my use,
that's what I'm here for."
[45:19] And then, I can begin to breathe.
[45:22] - [Chase] Wow.
- Begin to breathe.
[45:23] And I don't know whether
that thing, that voice,
[45:28] is God talking to me,
[45:31] Rayya talking through me,
[45:32] angels on my shoulder,
[45:34] my heightened imagination that creates
[45:36] and it's own trauma, the thing it needs.
[45:38] I don't care,
[45:39] it works.
- Yeah, it works.
[45:41] You're like, "It doesn't matter,
[45:42] "I'll take it."
- It works.
[45:42] And I've learned that by
being able to hold myself
[45:46] that way, I can also be, not with anyone,
[45:49] but I can be in the
room with almost anyone
[45:52] at this point.
[45:53] 'Cause I can just be like, "I don't care
[45:55] "if you ever sort this out.
[45:58] "You're a wreck, but I'm right here."
[46:00] And they're like, "What do I do?"
[46:01] I'm like, "I don't know but
I'll be with you. (laughs)
[46:04] "I'll just be love in the room with you."
[46:07] And if they're like
[46:08] "It doesn't help,"
- [Chase] So powerful.
[46:09] - I'm like, "Well, okay but I'm here.
[46:10] "I'll just sit here."
[46:12] The thing that I've learned about Love,
[46:15] capital L, Love, about
that, over the years,
[46:17] is that Love, real Love, doesn't need
[46:19] anything in the room to
be different than it is.
[46:22] It doesn't need anything
to be different than it is.
[46:24] It never says, "Here's
what you have to go do now.
[46:26] "Here's how you have to change.
[46:27] "Here's how you have to grow."
[46:28] Doesn't need it, doesn't need it.
[46:31] - Way, way more powerful.
[46:31] - Yeah, it's like, "You
just keep doin' this
[46:34] "and I'm just right here, I got you."
[46:36] And that is how I have survived my life.
[46:40] - Is the manifestation always writing
[46:42] or are there any other tools that you use?
[46:44] - Writing is the thing, you know.
[46:46] I think it's the most direct for me.
[46:48] It slows the mind down.
[46:50] Most of us, all of us,
have minds that move
[46:52] at just the speed of
light, literally, or more.
[46:55] No, I guess nothing's faster than that.
[46:56] Thoughts move really,
really, really, really fast.
[46:58] So, writing slows it.
[47:00] So, I can bring my panic
to the page and say,
[47:02] "I have this very
deliberate question, help."
[47:05] And then, Love will say,
"I got you, I'm right here.
[47:08] "It's okay, it's gonna be all right.
[47:10] "It's gonna be all right even if it's not.
[47:12] "Even if it's not, it's
gonna be all right."
[47:13] - So you mentioned being on a plane,
[47:15] were you writing to yourself on a plane?
[47:16] - [Elizabeth] Yeah!
- Yeah?
[47:17] I mean, I'm not kidding when I say
[47:18] I do this every day.
[47:19] - No, I like these foundational practices.
[47:22] It's a really common thread in greatness
[47:25] and creativity and
there's a self-care that,
[47:29] I think it's a complete myth.
[47:31] This sort of horrified
artists who's trying to
[47:33] dive into that in a unhealthy way.
[47:36] That healthy way of trying to manage it
[47:38] that you're talking about.
[47:38] It's gonna create the work.
- I have no interest
[47:40] in being a tormented artist
or a tormented person.
[47:42] I often am one.
[47:43] But when I am, I will do anything I can
[47:45] to help myself get out
of it as fast as I can.
[47:47] Or, to reach to somebody who can help me.
[47:50] I will relentlessly...
[47:54] This is one of the things that Love
[47:55] says to me all the time,
is, "I will make sure
[47:56] "you get whatever you need.
[47:59] "Whatever care you need, we
will make sure you get it.
[48:01] "We will make sure you get it,
[48:03] "starting tomorrow." (laughs)
[48:05] - I read a thing that you
[48:07] scrapped an entire novel.
[48:08] - (laughs)
- Is that true?
[48:10] - Well, it wasn't a
novel, it was a memoir.
[48:12] But, I did, yeah.
[48:13] Yeah.
[48:15] But a lot of people have that.
- Was it lacking authenticity?
[48:17] Why would you do that?
[48:17] - It was the book that came
after "Eat, Pray, Love."
[48:19] And it was just tortured because
it was so self-conscious.
[48:23] Because I was like, "I'm the author
[48:25] "of 'Eat, Pray, Love' now."
(makes uncomfortable sound)
[48:27] I just had no natural voice in it.
[48:29] And it was just strangled.
[48:31] Every sentence felt really strangled.
[48:34] And it wasn't an easy thing.
[48:36] I wept and wept when I
realized that I was so off.
[48:39] And I also realized,
this is not worth even
[48:41] trying to save.
[48:43] And it was a very
[48:44] painful truth-telling moment
to my publishers to say,
[48:47] "Guess what I have for you?
[48:48] "Nothing.
- [Chase] Nothing.
[48:49] - "And you can't see what I've done.
[48:51] "And I can't tell you when
I'm gonna have something.
[48:53] "And I don't know what, if ever."
[48:55] And then, I spent the next year gardening.
[48:58] Without a plan.
[49:00] And just like faith, I'm just
gonna do something else, now.
[49:02] I'm just gonna plant things.
[49:05] I don't know.
[49:06] And it wasn't like, "I'm gonna do this
[49:07] "and then I'll have a great idea."
[49:08] It was like, "I'm just
gonna do this." (laughs)
[49:11] Like, "This is fun.
[49:12] "Water, plant, watch it grow.
[49:14] "This is very funamental.
[49:14] "It's a lot easier than writing a book."
[49:16] - [Chase] Wow.
- Literally grounding.
[49:18] Getting your hands in the dirt, you know?
[49:20] And then, by the end of
that season of the garden,
[49:24] inspiration started to
come back and I found it.
[49:27] I didn't know I would.
[49:29] - You have to believe it.
- Yeah, yeah.
[49:32] - How do you know the work to do
[49:33] when you don't know what work to do?
[49:36] - Something else. (laughs)
[49:37] - [Chase] Yeah, just like, anything else?
[49:40] If it's over there,
[49:40] you run the other way.
- Something else.
[49:41] And I would suggest doing
something with your hands.
[49:45] - [Chase] Yeah, I have that sense
[49:46] of building, too.
- We're in our heads so much.
[49:47] And most of us, at this moment of history,
[49:49] we're so disconnected from our bodies
[49:51] and from the world.
[49:54] And we really do think of our bodies as
[49:55] a broomstick that we carry a jar
[49:57] with our brain in it around on, you know?
[49:59] And so, I would say
anything that you can do
[50:01] to embody
[50:03] work.
[50:04] Whether it's exercise or to
[50:07] make something.
[50:08] - [Chase] Physicality.
[50:09] - I love that story, there's this author,
[50:10] Clive James, this British author.
[50:12] And I tell this story in "Big Magic."
[50:14] He had an enormous failure
[50:17] where he literally bankrupted his family
[50:19] to produce a play,
[50:21] that ill-advisedly was a play
[50:23] that mocked every single literary person
[50:26] in London living at that time,
who were all his friends.
[50:28] So, he lost all his money
and he lost all his friends.
[50:31] And, it was terrible.
[50:33] - And he didn't see this coming?
[50:33] - No,
- (laughs)
[50:34] - 'cause he was like that cool guy who,
[50:37] everything he touched turned to gold.
[50:38] And he thought it'd be really funny.
[50:40] - [Chase] (makes defeated sound)
[50:41] - And, it was actually just rancid.
[50:43] And he fell into a severe
depression for months,
[50:46] and couldn't even get off the couch.
[50:47] And then one day, his little daughter
[50:49] came in and said, "Daddy,
I want a bicycle."
[50:52] And they went and bought
a bicycle for her,
[50:54] but he didn't have any money.
[50:55] So, he had to buy this junky bicycle.
[50:57] She was embarrassed to ride it around.
[50:58] And so, he said he'd fix it up for her.
[50:59] So, he fixed it up and he
[51:01] ended up getting all the rust off it
[51:03] and painting it midnight blue.
[51:04] And then he got this other
little, tiny paintbrush
[51:06] and he painted thousands
of tiny stars on it
[51:08] like it was Merlin's cloak.
[51:11] And she rode off on it and the next day,
[51:12] another little girl in the neighborhood
[51:13] came up and said, "Can
you paint my bicycle
[51:15] "the same that you did
with your daughter's?"
[51:17] Then, there was a line of kids
[51:18] asking him to paint their bicycles.
[51:20] And he did that for weeks.
[51:21] And then he was like, "You know what?
[51:23] "I figured out what I'm
supposed to do with my life.
[51:24] "I'm supposed to paint
bicycles with my life."
[51:27] And, he just relaxed.
[51:28] And then the next day, he
had an idea for a novel.
[51:30] (laughs)
[51:32] So the answer is, go paint bicycles.
[51:34] Just do something else, walk away.
[51:36] Walk away from the
thing that's not working
[51:38] and do something mindless
[51:41] and satisfying.
[51:43] - Can I confess something to you?
[51:45] - Yeah!
[51:45] - When we leave here, I'm also,
[51:47] I'm stuck, creatively, right now.
[51:48] I'm working on a couple
of things and stuck.
[51:50] I'm gonna go power wash my friend's
[51:53] driveway.
- Hot! (laughs)
[51:55] - It's the best!
- (claps hands)
[51:56] - It's literally,
[51:58] it's a medicine.
- Oh my god,
[52:00] that sounds great!
[52:02] - And you see progress.
- Yes!
[52:03] - And it's hypnotic progress.
- [Elizabeth] Yeah.
[52:06] - It's so embarrassing
[52:07] for me.
- I would suggest
[52:09] going around the neighborhood,
[52:10] and power washing everybody's
driveways for a while.
[52:12] Why stop with your friend?
[52:14] Just do that for the summer.
[52:15] I guarantee you, something
great will come out of it.
[52:17] - (laughs)
[52:19] - Be that guy!
[52:20] - Oh, my God.
- Just be that guy.
[52:22] - That's so embarrassing
[52:22] to confess, but it's so true.
- It'll drop you
[52:24] out of the drama and into the present.
[52:27] And that's when the ideas start
[52:28] to kick in.
- I borrowed the
[52:29] pressure washer from my dad.
[52:30] I had to go get special gas
[52:31] before our conversation,
- [Elizabeth] (laughs)
[52:33] - so that I could go do this.
[52:34] - I'm so jealous.
[52:36] I've called friends at
times and been like,
[52:37] "Can I come and clean our your closets
[52:40] "or organize your kitchen?
[52:40] "I'm having trouble writing."
[52:42] So, yeah, something else.
[52:44] Perfect, you got it.
[52:46] It's all gonna be all right.
[52:47] - Awesome.
[52:48] Thank you very, very much
- You're welcome.
[52:50] - for sitting down with us.
[52:51] Congrats on the new book.
[52:55] It's so inspirational
[52:56] to read.
[52:57] It's so timely.
[52:58] It's such a powerful piece of work.
[53:00] - [Elizabeth] Thank you.
[53:01] - Thank you very much.
- Thanks for having me
[53:02] on the show!
[53:03] - I'm looking forward, I
haven't finished the book.
[53:05] I wanted to sit with you first.
[53:06] - [Elizabeth] Okay, I'm glad
I didn't spoil it for you.
[53:08] - Yeah, I was worried,
I didn't wanna go there.
[53:10] So, for those folks at home,
[53:11] go check out "City Girls".
[53:13] Thank you so much for
being a guest on this show.
[53:15] Really, really appreciate it.
[53:16] - You're welcome, I loved it.
[53:17] - Awesome.
- All right.
[53:18] - See you again, probably,
hopefully, tomorrow.
[53:22] (dramatic techno music)