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Inspiration

Relationship as Spiritual Practice:Intimacy as Inner Work

Thomas Huebl
Thomas Huebl
Apr 1, 2020
9 min read

Terry Real, a therapist and couples specialist, presents relationships as a primary spiritual practice where the real work happens minute-to-minute in moments of conflict and disconnection. Rather than an abstract spiritual pursuit, he argues that intimacy requires a concrete shift in consciousness from automatic, reactive patterns (first consciousness) to a centered, adult presence capable of choice and compassion. The spiritual task is not to eliminate conflict but to meet conflict with a different part of yourself—one that can think, breathe, and act deliberately rather than defensively. Real frames this as "relational mindfulness," a practice rooted in both psychological healing and contemplative awareness, where partners become mirrors for each other's deepest growth work.

Read · 8 sections

Why Relationships Are Crucibles for Spiritual Awakening

Terry Real begins from a radical premise: intimate relationships are not secondary to spiritual practice—they are spiritual practice. He grounds this in a teaching from Krishnamurti that "true autonomy is freedom from our own automatic responses." Most people do not realize that intimate partnership creates one of the most reliable circumstances for automatic responses to surface. When you are standing six inches away from your partner in a moment of conflict, all the defended patterns, survival strategies, and wounded places emerge with visceral intensity.

Real distinguishes this from abstract spirituality. "You can be spiritual on the pillow, not a big problem," he says. "Be spiritual when your partner is in your face screaming at you. Be spiritual when you're feeling abandoned. Be spiritual when you're in the dark night of the soul in a relationship and you think your relationship is a big mistake and you're trapped in it." The stakes are real, and the spiritual work is not in meditation or philosophy but in the moment of contact with another person who triggers you.

What Are First and Second Consciousness?

Real introduces a framework central to his teaching: first consciousness and second consciousness. First consciousness is your knee-jerk response—the automatic reaction that rises from your family of origin and feels urgent, even life-threatening. It comes from the feet, he explains, using a visceral image: "it feels like the thing you must do if you don't do this the world's gonna fall apart." This is not intellectual; it is a body response, a wiring laid down in childhood that activates under threat.

Real has identified three primary first-consciousness patterns across thirty years of clinical work: fight, flight, and fix. Fighters become aggressive or reactive when triggered. Fliers stonewall or dissociate, appearing emotionally absent even when physically present. Fixers, often the ones who become therapists, immediately try to solve the problem or manage the tension in the room. None of these is "wrong"—they are all adaptive strategies that once kept you safe. The problem is that they are automatic and therefore disconnected from present circumstances and relational choice.

Second consciousness, by contrast, is what Real calls the "centered adult, present-based part of you that can love." When you feel the woosh of first consciousness rising, second consciousness is the capacity to stop, to reach for a different part of your mind and nervous system, to breathe, to think, and to choose a response rather than enact a reaction. This is where the spiritual work lives.

The Spiritual Practice of Conscious Choice in Real Time

Real offers a concrete teaching: "the work of intimacy is not day by day—it's minute to minute. Seriously, in this moment right now, am I gonna go this way or am I gonna go that way? Am I gonna go with automatic or am I gonna go with conscious?" This is the heart of relational spirituality. It is not about achieving a permanent state of enlightenment or transcendence; it is about repeatedly choosing consciousness in the moment when you are most triggered.

He illustrates this with his own marriage. Real and his wife Belinda are both fighters by first consciousness—they grew up in fighting families. When he would come home from travel, exhausted and irritable, he would meet Belinda's rage about being left alone with the kids. His body wanted to rage back, to attack verbally. In those moments, he faces a choice: "Door A" is to collapse into first consciousness, to justify himself, to weaponize his intelligence against her. "Door B" is to pause, to recognize what is happening, and to shift into a centered presence.

Real describes what happens when he chooses Door B: "a voice inside of me will say, 'Terry, shut up.' That's a very wise voice. And I breathe and get centered and put up a boundary. 'Belinda's having a bad day. You don't have to make her bad day your bad day.' Then protected, centered, present to her, I say, 'Honey, you're right. You've been with the kids. Sit down. Pour a glass of wine. I'll put the kids in bed, and then we'll talk.'" This is not suppression or spiritual bypassing. It is a genuine shift in consciousness from reactivity to presence, and it opens the door to actual intimacy rather than mutual wounding.

Relational Mindfulness: Awareness Plus Deliberate Action

Real is careful to distinguish his approach from simple mindfulness. "It's not enough just to be aware," he says. "That's a good first step, but mindfulness alone is not the answer. You're aware of your automatic reaction. You're aware of what's going on in front of you. But on a good day, if Linda goes like that and I have my wish to react, I'll stop. A voice inside says, 'Terry, shut up. Breathe. Get centered. Put up a boundary.'"

The shift from first consciousness to second consciousness requires more than witnessing. It requires what Real calls "relational mindfulness"—a shift from the "automatic part of us, the adaptive child or wounded child part of us, the triggered part of us" to "the present-based, thoughtful part of us that can love." This is a movement in the nervous system and the brain. Neuroscientifically, it is a shift from the limbic system and brainstem (fight/flight/freeze) to the prefrontal cortex—the part that can think, plan, regulate, and choose.

But it is also spiritual in the deepest sense. Real has been meditating and practicing contemplative work for over forty-five years. He understands that this capacity for conscious choice is the fruit of long inner work. Yet he insists that this work is not complete or real until it is tested in relationship. The partner becomes the mirror, the teacher, the person who will reliably activate the exact patterns you most need to heal.

The Therapist's Central Question: Which Part of Them Am I Speaking To?

Real describes the most critical question that guides his work as a therapist: "Which part of you am I speaking to? Am I speaking to the centered, adult, present-based part of you, or am I speaking to the triggered, reactive, protective part?" This is not a diagnostic question about pathology. It is a relational inquiry into which consciousness is active in this moment.

The implication is profound. A couple can have excellent external circumstances—no financial stress, no major life stressors—and still be in chronic relational pain if both partners are stuck in first consciousness. Conversely, a couple under genuine hardship can navigate with wisdom and intimacy if they can access second consciousness. The quality of the relationship is determined not primarily by circumstances or dynamics but by the consciousness each partner can bring to the moment.

The Role of the Wounded Child and Self-Discipline

Real speaks directly to what he calls the "little you"—the wounded, adaptive child part that carries the pain and defenses from your early life. This is not a metaphor. When you are triggered, you are literally regressed to an earlier developmental state, operating from patterns learned in a family system that may have been chaotic, neglectful, or violent. Real himself came from what he describes as "pretty much a war zone"—a mother who was ineffective and a father who was emotionally and physically violent.

The spiritual task involves what Real calls "loving self-discipline." You do not shame the wounded child or try to eliminate it. You recognize it with compassion. But you do not let it run your life. When that panicked, reactive voice emerges, you acknowledge it—"I hear you, you were right to protect me then"—but you do not obey it. Instead, you reach for the adult, conscious part of yourself. This is not repression; it is a mature integration where the younger parts are held within a larger, wiser awareness.

This requires what Real describes as a kind of internal authority—not harsh or authoritarian, but genuinely protective. A parent loves the child and also says no. The spiritual practice is learning to be that loving, protective presence to yourself, and then to extend that to your partner.

Intimacy Requires Presence, Not Just Awareness

Real repeatedly emphasizes that spiritual presence in relationship is not passive or merely contemplative. It is active, engaged, and sometimes challenging. To be truly present to your partner means to be willing to see them clearly, to notice the patterns that are not serving, and to speak the truth with compassion.

He points to a common mistake many spiritual practitioners make: using spiritual language or detachment as a way to avoid genuine contact. If you are centered and present, you can hold your partner in a larger awareness, seeing both their reactivity and their wholeness. But you are not distant. You are intimately engaged, willing to be affected, willing to be changed by the encounter.

Where to Go From Here

If you recognize your own first-consciousness patterns in Real's teaching, the practice is not to eliminate them but to develop the capacity to pause before enacting them. Notice what happens in your body when you are triggered. What is the automatic move? Is it to fight, to flee, or to fix? Can you feel the urgency, the sense that something catastrophic will happen if you don't act?

The spiritual work is to create space—even a small space—between the trigger and your response. In that space, you can access a different part of yourself. You can ask: "Is this actually an emergency? What do I really need right now? What does my partner really need? What would a centered, adult version of me do in this moment?"

This is not about becoming perfect or enlightened. It is about the minute-to-minute practice of choosing consciousness in intimate contact with another human being. Real's work suggests that this is not separate from spiritual practice—it is perhaps the most direct and demanding spiritual practice available, because another person will keep waking you up until you learn to respond from your wholeness rather than your wounds.

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Transcript

[0:05] so Terry welcome welcome

[0:08] I'm happy you made it and you came here

[0:10] it's a joy to be here it's a joy to be

[0:13] with you Thomas it's really great to be

[0:14] here with hmm likewise thank you my

[0:17] class so I'm very happy that today you

[0:20] will share your wisdom with everybody

[0:24] and maybe let's start with let's start

[0:29] with maybe what what made you be

[0:33] interested in in working with couples I

[0:35] think now why did you choose that track

[0:41] well they say the therapists or people

[0:45] who need to be in therapy 40 hours a

[0:46] week truly i I need all the help I can

[1:00] get I come from a dysfunctional family

[1:05] as I've written about my mom was

[1:10] ineffective my dad was depressed and

[1:12] violent both emotionally and physically

[1:15] and I honestly believe I became a

[1:18] therapist to figure out how to heal

[1:19] myself and then I became a couples and

[1:23] Family Therapist to figure out how they

[1:25] had to have a relationship because what

[1:28] I saw growing up and what I saw in the

[1:29] culture gave me no equipment whatsoever

[1:33] and so I said about trying to figure out

[1:36] how to do this I like to say every man

[1:47] that I work with in therapy is really my

[1:49] father

[1:50] and every man I heal is my father and

[1:53] every man I don't heal is my father and

[1:57] I grew up pretty much in a war zone and

[2:02] let me let me say more generally I

[2:06] believe that what we want now in

[2:10] relationships myself included is

[2:12] historically brand-new

[2:14] I believe that we have never seriously

[2:18] wanted intimacy in our long-term

[2:22] relationships and marriage we want a

[2:24] companionship and stability and now all

[2:28] of us really want to be lifelong lovers

[2:30] we want long walks on the beach and

[2:32] holding hands and sex in our 70s and

[2:35] beyond and but our culture patriarchal

[2:39] culture which we all live under simply

[2:43] doesn't give us the tools to realize

[2:47] that an ambition and so most of us are

[2:51] walking around pretty frustrated in our

[2:53] relationships and we all know who's to

[2:57] blame so that was the morning lecture so

[3:17] I think I've been thinking a lot well

[3:20] first of all let me say to the group a

[3:21] couple of things this is coming out for

[3:23] me for a number of reasons this is the

[3:26] first time I presented around the world

[3:28] this is the first time I've ever

[3:29] presented barefoot

[3:35] so I expect some real embodied

[3:37] information to come through and you know

[3:44] I've been meditating and practicing for

[3:46] over 45 years and I'm known at the

[3:50] therapist and this is really the first

[3:52] time I'm speaking publicly about

[3:53] spiritual work and inhabiting that if

[3:57] somebody we can speak about spiritual

[3:59] works so thank you all thank you that's

[4:02] amazing I've been thinking about what

[4:08] the what might be useful and I think I'd

[4:12] like to start off with the idea of

[4:13] relationships as a spiritual practice to

[4:15] begin with because um it was really the

[4:22] great spiritual teacher Krishnamurti who

[4:24] said that true autonomy is freedom from

[4:28] our own automatic responses and I don't

[4:33] know of a crucible that will evoke

[4:36] automatic responses better so I talked

[4:44] about first and second consciousness I

[4:46] thought I might start there

[4:48] your first consciousness is your

[4:50] knee-jerk response it comes out of your

[4:53] family of origin adaptation and it's

[4:57] automatic and it's very visceral talk

[5:00] about woosh wh-wh-whoa as it comes up

[5:04] from the feet and it feels like the

[5:06] thing you must do if you don't do this

[5:10] the world's gonna fall apart now I've

[5:12] been doing this for thirty years and let

[5:15] me give you an exercise the first order

[5:18] of business is I've only seen three

[5:20] categories of first consciousness

[5:24] fight/flight and you can be standing six

[5:28] inches away from somebody and fleeing

[5:29] right though it's called stonewalling a

[5:31] lot of men know how to do that

[5:33] wha-wha-wha wha-wha-wha-wha and then

[5:37] fixing which we therapist specialized

[5:41] and that's like oh my god there's some

[5:43] tension in the room let me take it that

[5:44] yeah so let me let me see hands how many

[5:49] of you are fighters first consciousness

[5:51] fighters

[5:51] that's your knee-jerk response come on

[5:54] be proud get him up there how many

[5:58] players and how many fixtures you fixers

[6:09] can't give Thomas feedback about how we

[6:11] did today my wife Linda and I did a a

[6:19] workshop on codependence we got the best

[6:22] evaluations it was like oh they're so

[6:25] good they're great everybody thought we

[6:26] were J anyway so here's the thing you

[6:37] can be spiritual on the pillow not a big

[6:40] problem be spiritual when your partner

[6:44] is in your face screaming at you so I

[6:47] mean that be spiritual when you're

[6:50] feeling abandoned be spiritual when

[6:53] you're in the dark night of soul in a

[6:55] relationship and you think your

[6:57] relationship is a big mistake

[6:59] and you're trapped in it being spiritual

[7:01] then and what I mean by be spiritual

[7:05] then is that when you feel that woosh

[7:09] you reach for a different part different

[7:12] part of the soul that's part of the

[7:14] psyche prefrontal cortex in the brain

[7:16] you reach for a part of you that can

[7:19] stop and breathe and think and be

[7:24] deliberate I have a little Institute

[7:29] we're always struggling you know and I

[7:31] have merchandise ideas I want to do a

[7:34] dr. Terry action figure at some point I

[7:37] think that would be really great we all

[7:40] had shitty childhoods get over it

[7:44] [Laughter]

[7:49] but I want to get a t-shirt that says

[7:52] relational living on the front and I

[7:54] choose door B on the back so it goes

[8:00] like this I'm a fighter I grew up in a

[8:03] fighting family my wife Belinda is a

[8:04] fighter she grew up in a fighting family

[8:06] our first consciousnesses fight so I

[8:10] would come not now because we're in

[8:13] pretty good recovery and our kids are

[8:15] grown when the kids were a lot easier

[8:22] all right so give you a lot of

[8:25] opportunity and then I stop and we look

[8:31] at each other and we smile and one will

[8:33] say I just want to thank you for giving

[8:35] me this opportunity to work on myself

[8:39] that goes over real well anyway you

[8:45] reach for a different part so I would

[8:48] come home after being on the road like

[8:50] this Belinda would be with little kids

[8:51] and I would be met with rage with

[8:55] self-righteous finding that you left me

[8:57] here alone with the kids blah blah blah

[8:59] blah blah blah blah and my wish would be

[9:03] rage what I like to say what I what my

[9:07] body wants to do is Bopper in the nose

[9:09] but being a feminist I would relegate

[9:15] myself to verbal abuse I come home from

[9:24] teaching people have a lucky chance to

[9:26] put up with a bullshit

[9:36] so that's Dora a I know what lies door

[9:44] behind door a I've been behind door a a

[9:46] million times so in this moment you know

[9:50] one of the things is that people say

[9:51] intimacy and relationships take work but

[9:54] nobody tells you where what it is and I

[9:57] think the work of intimacy is not day by

[10:00] day its minute to minute seriously in

[10:04] this moment right now am I gonna go this

[10:08] way or am I gonna go that way am I gonna

[10:10] go with this part of my soul or am I

[10:11] gonna do with this part of my soul am I

[10:13] gonna go with automatic or am I going to

[10:16] go with conscious and for me it's not

[10:21] enough just to be aware that's it that's

[10:25] a good first step

[10:26] some but it's not just mindfulness

[10:29] you're aware of your automatic reaction

[10:32] you're aware of what's going on in front

[10:34] of you and on a good day if the Linda

[10:37] goes like that and I have my wish

[10:40] I'll stop a voice inside of me will say

[10:44] Terry shut up

[10:46] that's a very wise voice and breathe and

[10:51] get centered and put up a boundary

[10:54] Belinda's having a bad day you don't

[10:56] have to make her bad day your bad day

[10:58] now protected centered present to her is

[11:03] there anything useful and then I say

[11:07] honey you're right you've been with the

[11:09] kids you sit down pour glass of wine

[11:10] I'll put in the bed and then we'll talk

[11:13] that door B is only possible to me

[11:17] because I've shifted my consciousness

[11:19] and I call this relational mindfulness

[11:22] shifting out of the automatic part of us

[11:26] I caught the adaptive child or wounded

[11:28] child part of the triggered part of us

[11:29] to the present based thoughtful part of

[11:32] us that can love because one of the

[11:37] great questions is not when I'm faced

[11:40] with a couple

[11:42] and unless you get a question in the

[11:44] minute when I'm faced with a couple the

[11:47] most important question for me is the

[11:48] therapist is not as I speak to them what

[11:52] are the external stressors a good couple

[11:54] can handle straw and it isn't even

[11:56] primarily what's the dynamic between the

[11:59] two of them although that's critical the

[12:01] critical question is this which part of

[12:04] you am I speaking to

[12:06] am i speaking to the centered adult

[12:09] present based part of you that can do

[12:11] something or am i speaking to a

[12:13] triggered child part of you that's taken

[12:15] control of the wheel and the first order

[12:18] of business is to is for us to deal with

[12:24] the inner children that get kicked up in

[12:26] us and not voice them off on our

[12:28] partners to deal with so I like to say

[12:31] when an inner child kicks up you want to

[12:34] put them on your lap put your arms

[12:36] around them love them and demote them

[12:40] take your hands off the steering wheel

[12:42] and get in the back seat and I'll just

[12:46] say this last thing I want to hear from

[12:48] you um this is what I tell my clients

[12:51] when Belinda and I are having a fight I

[12:54] will literally take little Terry I have

[12:57] a composite about eight years old I've

[12:59] worked with him a lot and I'll put them

[13:02] behind me and I'll say look here's our

[13:06] deal you and me I will protect you from

[13:09] the blast or what's coming from my

[13:10] partner

[13:11] you know like Superman with this cape

[13:13] I'll take the air you are completely

[13:16] protected back there but don't you try

[13:20] and deal with Belinda you let me deal

[13:23] with Belinda I can do a better job so

[13:26] I'm loving and protecting and containing

[13:29] those immature parks and I'm reaching

[13:32] into the relationship with a more aware

[13:35] mature part that's the two-step process

[13:37] and what gives you the power to do that

[13:40] so how how do you like because when we

[13:44] when we are in this fights so what

[13:48] decides if we have the

[13:50] presence or the awareness to connect to

[13:53] the mature part and what what is the

[13:58] probability to stay stuck in that young

[14:01] part so what is actually helpful for us

[14:04] to learn to be more in the adult part

[14:07] what is to practice what can strengthen

[14:09] that part well there cuz I talked about

[14:12] top-down practice work and bottom-up

[14:15] detailing work and in the therapy I've

[14:20] created is called relational life

[14:21] therapy we do both and actually between

[14:25] the two the top-down practice is the

[14:27] most important part people get that

[14:29] wrong because the bottom-up healing is

[14:31] very emotional and cathartic it's kind

[14:34] of sexy the top-down practices every day

[14:37] in the moment discipline and I was very

[14:42] pleased a friend of mine said because

[14:44] I'm big on discipline a friend of mine

[14:46] said the actual meaning of the word

[14:48] discipline is to be a disciple to be

[14:52] devoted to something so in that moment I

[14:57] am trying to remember I'm doing my best

[15:00] to remember and it gets better as you

[15:02] practice it but don't talk about it I

[15:04] try to remember that my wife is not the

[15:10] enemy this is not a zero-sum game the

[15:14] minute one's a winner and one's a loser

[15:16] were we're both losing and I try and

[15:20] awaken a relational consciousness which

[15:25] is really an ecological consciousness my

[15:28] wife and I are creating a biosphere

[15:31] called our marriage and is in my

[15:36] interest to keep that biosphere clean

[15:38] it's not for her it's for me

[15:41] and so I talk to people about what I

[15:43] call enlightened self-interest once you

[15:47] start thinking ecologically about your

[15:49] relationship you're not above it you're

[15:50] in it and so you can indulge yourself

[15:54] for example and pollute over there with

[15:56] a lot of nastiness

[15:58] but you breathe it in over here and a

[16:01] lot of passive-aggressive

[16:03] returned and so I try to stay awake to

[16:06] my own interest it's like there's a part

[16:09] of me that wants to win or prove myself

[16:13] right or control her or retaliate or all

[16:16] those strategies and I let that come I'm

[16:21] sure you all have this experience no I

[16:24] mean it

[16:24] have you not had the experience of the

[16:27] gorge rising and on the tip of the

[16:30] tongue is the nasty thing and you take a

[16:32] breath then you bring yourself back down

[16:35] okay can I see hands have you have you

[16:37] had that experience

[16:38] yeah we all know how to do that so it's

[16:42] just and the other part that I love is

[16:45] that this can be actively cultivated

[16:48] that you can set your mind to do more of

[16:51] it

[16:52] in the moment and it's just like going

[16:55] to the gym you build those muscles the

[16:57] first time I did it I was terrible at it

[16:59] the 3000th time I did it I was okay now

[17:03] sometimes you have to take a break then

[17:05] go off by yourself and get recenter

[17:08] that's fine

[17:10] but you make a commitment that you're

[17:16] gonna use the heat of the moment not to

[17:19] control the other person but to get

[17:23] centered inside yourself to do some work

[17:25] inside yourself with that trigger and

[17:28] that's the commitment and that's how you

[17:31] use up and do you think that your

[17:34] spiritual practice of 40 years as you

[17:37] said before helped you with that yes it

[17:40] helps me a lot there's a great I learned

[17:46] this from al-anon but I think it's

[17:49] central to most spiritual traditions the

[17:51] idea of detachment for outcome and when

[17:55] I'm in it in my relationship I have been

[17:59] captured by an agenda I want something

[18:02] to happen I've got to get through to her

[18:05] she has to say she's sorry or you know

[18:08] if something's got a had about

[18:10] and I think my 40 years of meditation

[18:13] has allowed me to it's funny I've do a

[18:21] lot of work with addictions and young

[18:23] said that the cure for addictions had to

[18:25] be spiritual and I think the cure for

[18:27] all of this has to be spiritual because

[18:30] when I'm triggered it's about control

[18:33] it's about fear and anger and control

[18:36] and when I'm in my adult Hmong I'm

[18:39] centered it's about being in the moment

[18:43] with what's there or whatever that is

[18:46] but I don't ask my clients to give up

[18:50] control unless there's some faith in the

[18:55] benevolence of something that's going to

[18:56] hold them up and I think without that

[18:59] faith in we call it basic trust without

[19:02] that faith and what's ultimately spirit

[19:04] the buoyancy of being held up it's very

[19:08] hard to have a healthy relationship

[19:10] without that faith so that faith is a

[19:16] kind of a resource that we built through

[19:21] our spiritual practice when that faith

[19:23] is not there yet or if it hasn't been

[19:26] established yet so how do you work with

[19:29] somebody how do you work with somebody

[19:31] that hasn't developed that faith yet

[19:34] that there is something enablement

[19:36] holding them what would you do then well

[19:40] I think the first relationship that we

[19:42] have to work on it's kind of a cliche

[19:44] but the first one is our relationship to

[19:47] ourselves and so the first skills I

[19:49] teach people are self esteem and

[19:50] boundaries I had a guy he was the son of

[19:57] an artist he was himself a renowned

[19:59] artist the son of a famous artist the

[20:03] grandson of a very we all know who this

[20:05] great artist and he's a sculptor and he

[20:10] told me that every day in his childhood

[20:13] every single day his artist father would

[20:16] come home and see what he'd been

[20:18] building and he would take it out of his

[20:21] hands and he throw it in the waste

[20:22] every day I was like and he had no sense

[20:28] of self-esteem whatsoever none he's

[20:31] never felt self-love and here's the

[20:33] punchline he was 80 years old so I

[20:38] didn't exercise with him

[20:39] I did a Buddhist Metta exercise i hanim

[20:43] many people know it I had him construct

[20:46] the field of love because he was a very

[20:49] good father and he knew how to love his

[20:50] kids and I hadn't put his kids in that

[20:53] field of love and feel love for them and

[20:57] then I took them out and I had him put

[21:00] himself as a little boy in that field

[21:03] and feel permeated by love and then I

[21:07] had him bring that little boy into his

[21:09] body and let love suffuse his body and

[21:15] when he was done I asked him how it was

[21:17] and he said I love this he was quite a

[21:19] poet he said it's a little sugar and the

[21:22] coffee cup you know you know self-esteem

[21:30] is something we all talk about but very

[21:32] few people teach people how to do it

[21:34] it's really about holding on to the

[21:38] thread of connection to yourself in a

[21:40] warm loving way even when you're

[21:43] screwing up or being imperfect and

[21:46] there's also relational esteem which is

[21:49] similar it's holding your partner in

[21:51] warm regard even when they're being a

[21:53] complete jerk and disappointing you and

[21:59] so these things can be taught and

[22:01] practiced and then the deep work is

[22:05] about moving into these trickered States

[22:07] doing trauma work to release some of the

[22:10] energy that you've taken off that work -

[22:15] in the work I do is relational a lot of

[22:19] people release trauma out into the world

[22:20] or the sky or whatever following my

[22:24] mentor Pia melody I believe in bringing

[22:28] imaginatively the people in the room who

[22:31] traumatized here if you can handle it

[22:35] and then you give back the energy that

[22:39] you took from them back to them this is

[22:42] yours thanks a lot I don't wanna

[22:45] so you clear out some of that deep work

[22:48] and then you you actively practice I

[22:52] gave a talk with them Cornel West the

[22:58] premier American scholar on race and

[23:02] Gloria Steinem Cornell was on my right

[23:05] Gloria was on my left they were giving

[23:08] talks and I was in the middle and

[23:11] Cornell got a standing ovation and

[23:13] Gloria got a standing ovation I wouldn't

[23:16] go there when I got but my wife my wife

[23:20] it's all the way in the back room and

[23:22] she cracked up because she could see me

[23:24] looking down at the floor saying to

[23:27] myself I'm enough and I matter I'm

[23:29] enough my kids do this I've got a 29

[23:43] year old kid they make great fun of

[23:45] having two therapists for parents they

[23:47] got a great routine but Mike Kim a 29

[23:49] year old will still say I screwed up the

[23:51] test I know dad I'm enough for my mat or

[23:53] even worse than that so south love is

[24:01] really critical and an ecological vision

[24:05] understanding that is in your interest

[24:08] to make things right between you and

[24:10] your partner it's not bending over so

[24:14] they win and you lose

[24:15] it's in your interest happy wife happy

[24:17] life as they say

[24:24] so you shared with me before there's the

[24:30] negative image that you create of your

[24:32] partner maybe you want to talk about a

[24:34] little more negative image yeah the core

[24:36] negative image at the concept I think

[24:38] that's a beautiful way to check oneself

[24:41] and be a triggered something great so

[24:43] here's a tool that you can all use I

[24:46] promised that I would oh good we got

[24:48] lots of time

[24:48] no I would download some tools this is I

[24:51] wrote about this in the book the new

[24:53] rules of marriage you can read it there

[24:54] I also if I can feed whatever please

[24:59] come to my website just Terry real calm

[25:02] there's all sorts of resources there in

[25:06] your core negative image is who you see

[25:12] your partner as being when you're

[25:15] looking through the spectacles of your

[25:17] partner is the biggest asshole that ever

[25:19] lived in life who use when you're there

[25:22] and you're going this is impossible I

[25:25] made a terrible mistake marrying this

[25:28] person's that is your core negative

[25:32] image of them and your core negative

[25:36] image is the good news about it is

[25:38] that's consistent it's not a moving

[25:41] target can you imagine if it moved how

[25:45] difficult couples have the same fight

[25:48] for 40 years one fight it's one image so

[25:55] your core negative image of your partner

[25:57] is an exaggerated version of them at

[26:01] their worst an exaggerated version of

[26:06] your partner at his or her worst it's

[26:08] not them at best it's not even them at

[26:10] baseline that's not even an accurate

[26:13] description of them it's kind of like a

[26:15] purple you know journalist description a

[26:18] very flowery description of you or worse

[26:20] but it okay having said that it is

[26:23] nevertheless true Crump sorry to say

[26:31] see I'll do me in Belinda because I'll

[26:35] come out so Belinda has a core negative

[26:39] image of being as a narcissistic

[26:43] charming irresponsible undependable

[26:46] manchild

[26:47] oh boy I know you're all laughing

[26:58] because you're thinking how sick must

[27:00] that woman be to think anyway my core

[27:10] negative image of Belinda is that she is

[27:13] an insatiable critical demanding

[27:15] controlling witch yeah I feel very fine

[27:25] about coming out of the closet because

[27:27] this is not a rare heterosexual pairing

[27:30] these two here's how it works so I come

[27:39] home after being on the road but Linda's

[27:40] there with the little kids they're all

[27:42] now but whatever she flashes out and

[27:45] she's in a rage when I come home and

[27:48] she's seeing me through the spectacles

[27:51] of this manchild this boy if I know that

[27:56] that's her core negative image a number

[27:58] of things were possible for me one is I

[28:01] don't have to take it personally no

[28:03] that's big that's bound your words I

[28:05] don't have to get all triggered and bent

[28:07] out of shape because she's seen me that

[28:09] way

[28:09] it's like well this is recording I know

[28:11] she's talking to that boy I got it I

[28:13] know what she's thinking so it really

[28:15] helps with boundaries and then the other

[28:18] thing is if you can tolerate hearing

[28:21] your partner's core negative image of

[28:23] you and vice versa and they should only

[28:24] be like five words the way I said it

[28:27] don't go on and on

[28:31] if you know what your partner's

[28:33] coordinating event you have operating

[28:35] instructions because your partner's

[28:38] coordinating ativ image of you points in

[28:40] the opposite direction of where you want

[28:43] to go

[28:44] so if Melinda sees me as irresponsible

[28:48] and I go oh you're making too much of

[28:51] those so go see I knew you were

[28:54] responsible look at the way he answered

[28:55] that her core negative image guess what

[29:00] triggers my core negative image of her

[29:02] the minute she starts criticizing me

[29:04] then she's an insatiable witch and our

[29:08] core negative images are arguing with

[29:10] each other we could sit down and have a

[29:11] beer so if you know where your partner's

[29:22] core negative images of you it takes a

[29:25] lot of the sting out of it because what

[29:27] happens is your partner tries to get

[29:30] through to you about what's wrong

[29:31] they're very exaggerated in what they're

[29:34] describing you react to the negative

[29:37] exaggeration and the grain of truth in

[29:41] what gets in what's being said gets lost

[29:43] and so the way out of a core negative

[29:47] image is to be accountable yes I did it

[29:51] you're right I'm sorry

[29:53] and maybe even compassionate I can see

[29:56] how you might feel bad but you can't do

[29:58] that if your core negative image

[30:01] triggered and you don't know that you're

[30:03] not on run away so anything I do this

[30:06] feeling responsible Belinda will be

[30:09] pleased by anything I do that's really

[30:10] irresponsible I know it should be

[30:12] triggered by anything that she says to

[30:14] me that's really appreciative I love and

[30:17] anything she says to me that's really

[30:19] critical will really rile me

[30:21] so there are operating instructions for

[30:24] your relationship so basically when you

[30:26] work with people you you work with them

[30:29] on seeing that core negative image and

[30:31] then sharing it with their partner and

[30:34] kind of an intimate maybe facilitated

[30:36] space so that they both can learn to see

[30:39] their core negative images operating

[30:41] with each other that's the word

[30:42] that's exactly right in the spirit of

[30:45] this is an exaggerated version of you at

[30:48] your all-time worst and I don't ask

[30:53] people to share coordinated images until

[30:55] they've done some boundary work and some

[30:58] self-esteem work otherwise it'll be too

[31:00] overwhelming for that and

[31:04] so what do those core negative images

[31:09] serve so if if it comes up for the

[31:12] person so what do they serve - they have

[31:15] a function that they serve that's a

[31:17] great question

[31:20] well this opens up quite a can of worms

[31:22] your core negative image is a cop it's a

[31:28] wound it's always based on a wound or a

[31:31] fear which is also alone and your core

[31:35] negative image is really a combination

[31:36] of the family of origin childhood

[31:40] wounding that you bring to the table

[31:41] that you miss reading with the fact that

[31:46] you hired somebody to do exactly the

[31:51] torturous thing they're doing to you so

[31:54] when people say to me it is my partner

[31:57] really doing this to me or am I

[31:59] overreacting because of my childhood the

[32:01] answer is yes it's both and I call this

[32:06] the mysticism of marriage we falling in

[32:10] love means that you believe whether

[32:13] you're too sophisticated to say it aloud

[32:15] or not that with this person all will be

[32:18] well you will be relieved of your family

[32:22] of origin wounding this will this will

[32:25] complete you this will heal you or at

[32:27] the very least you'll avoid on that grab

[32:29] that's who we fall in love with we all

[32:34] marry someone who's exquisitely designed

[32:37] to stick the Burning Spear into our

[32:40] eyeball

[32:52] this does not mean you're in a bad

[32:54] marriage for a long-term relationship it

[32:57] means are in a marriage this is what it

[32:59] is

[33:01] and our culture gives us no tools or

[33:05] help in navigating how dark that gets

[33:09] it's really dark I talk about the dark

[33:10] night of the soul

[33:11] I follow infant observational research

[33:14] at tronic in particular he got this by

[33:18] watching mothers and infants all

[33:20] relationships are advance of harmony

[33:24] disharmony and repair closeness

[33:27] disruption and return and that plays out

[33:34] in a relationship 20 times during the

[33:37] course of one dinner or I can play out

[33:39] over ten years as a fade the first phase

[33:43] I call love without knowledge that's the

[33:47] Harmony phase the honeymoon phase and I

[33:50] do believe there's a soul recognition

[33:52] that this is my person but you don't

[33:54] know what they do with their closets or

[33:56] their bills or their underwear it's all

[34:03] very glossy and partly that is true

[34:08] because real I don't lie when you're

[34:13] dating somebody don't you lie don't you

[34:16] present a better picture I remember I

[34:18] forgot something and we drove off and it

[34:21] closed it was late and Belinda said oh

[34:24] I'm not the kind of girl who worries

[34:25] about that sort of thing yeah right

[34:28] thirty years later anyway so harmony

[34:32] phase I call it love without knowledge

[34:34] the disharmony phase or disillusionment

[34:37] I call knowledge without love now you

[34:42] see really clearly all the person's

[34:44] limitations but you're not very empathic

[34:46] in fact you're feeling pretty trapped

[34:50] and what our culture doesn't teach

[34:53] people is that this is really this hurts

[34:56] this is dark

[34:57] you're really wondering if you belong

[34:59] there that is normal that's where the

[35:03] skills come in to get you from

[35:05] disillusionment back into repair and

[35:08] repair I call it mature love or knowing

[35:10] love this is where you see very clearly

[35:13] your partner's imperfections and you

[35:16] choose to love them anyway as imperfect

[35:19] as they are and that's the rhythm of

[35:22] really harmony disharmony repair and

[35:24] we're always falling out of balance and

[35:27] needing to get back into balance out of

[35:29] balance into balance so maturity would

[35:34] be to know how to embrace that cycle

[35:37] maturity would be to know how to embrace

[35:40] that cycle yes he when we're in it and

[35:46] you got the Burning Spear in my eye I am

[35:50] one triggered human being I'm all about

[35:52] my childhood and my wounding mm-hmm what

[35:58] I want to do what we all naturally want

[36:01] to do is I want to get out of that

[36:04] wounding by getting you to do the nice

[36:07] thing for me that would heal me and you

[36:11] know the road to hell is paved with good

[36:13] intentions I believe it's my impulse to

[36:17] get you to do for me and then to

[36:20] retaliate either actively or passively

[36:22] when you don't that produces most of the

[36:25] difficulty so what happens is that in

[36:29] this moment of the heat of the rewarding

[36:32] if I can lay off getting you to give it

[36:35] to me and I can give it to me I can take

[36:39] that little Terry and I can put them on

[36:42] my lap and I can soothe them and I can

[36:44] tell them you can't yell at Belinda I'll

[36:45] take care of it if I can do something

[36:48] different then that might evoke a truly

[36:52] different response from you and that

[36:54] heals the world there's not a direct

[36:57] shot of you heal me it's we heal me by

[37:01] the work that I do inside the relay

[37:04] does that make sense yeah yeah right and

[37:06] so so I hear you talk about the top-down

[37:10] work that we need to do the discipline

[37:13] the moment-to-moment practice and I

[37:16] heard you talk about this cycle so I

[37:18] would love to hear a little bit more and

[37:19] maybe then we can open yeah I'd be great

[37:23] space here but how do you work with what

[37:27] you mentioned before that a part of the

[37:30] work is working on the original

[37:33] dramatization that underlies the hold

[37:36] and Allah creates the whole dynamics so

[37:38] how what's your what you experience what

[37:41] works what doesn't work

[37:43] I mean is there hope is there no hope in

[37:52] the relational life therapy there's

[37:54] three phases three domains

[37:58] the first is confrontation confrontation

[38:01] Thomas this is what you're doing to blow

[38:03] your own foot off most therapists don't

[38:05] do that they're all about nurture and

[38:08] they don't confront with the truth

[38:10] see I believe that answer missing is the

[38:12] conjunction of truth and love you were

[38:15] talking about the feeling of being seen

[38:17] I would bet that if we were to ask

[38:21] people's most deep experience of feeling

[38:24] seen they would also be feeling loved in

[38:26] the way in who was seeing them that's

[38:29] healing and so I would do some work

[38:33] around the trauma I'd get the person to

[38:36] with their permission to begin to react

[38:39] cess that trauma I would ask you Thomas

[38:42] how old are you in this moment

[38:45] psychologically I'm eight and then I

[38:48] would do inner child work with that

[38:50] eight-year-old and I would bring that

[38:52] eight-year-old out of your body

[38:53] I would have you talked together I would

[38:57] have you the adult say to that little

[38:59] boy what he needed to hear back then and

[39:02] too near and then what he needs to tell

[39:06] you about what it's like to be him and

[39:08] then the ultimate punchline of that

[39:12] process is when you the adults say to

[39:15] the little you

[39:16] I'm here now I can take care of you you

[39:20] don't have to be alone with us anymore

[39:23] so it's not primarily release work

[39:26] although we do that to its primary

[39:28] relational work I am going to tend to

[39:32] you the little me and conversely you're

[39:36] not going to run the show that's that's

[39:39] how it works the inner child work tends

[39:44] to be extremely emotional

[39:46] you know people crying people throw up

[39:48] people whatever but to me the important

[39:53] thing is to send you home with a

[39:56] relationship between you and those

[39:58] triggered parts of you and with a sense

[40:01] that you are the steward of those parts

[40:04] my friend dick Schwartz I'm sure a lot

[40:07] of people no ifs here dick Schwartz

[40:08] internal family systems says you know

[40:11] you're okay when you don't speak from a

[40:13] part you speak for the part and it

[40:17] really has to do with which part of you

[40:19] is at the wheel so the work I do with

[40:23] the trigger wounding is healing work

[40:29] between you and those younger parts of

[40:31] you and then I send all of you back into

[40:37] the fray with your beloved that's how it

[40:41] work so basically what I hear says you

[40:45] create an atonement of the person to the

[40:48] part that is where the trauma rests and

[40:50] to create an awareness and a holding

[40:52] that kind of an internal embrace can

[40:55] happen from the mature part to hold that

[40:57] traumatized part yes that's exactly

[40:59] right and do you see those

[41:01] dramatizations to dissolve slowly or do

[41:04] you see that they stay but there is a

[41:07] bigger space around them

[41:10] yeah do they dissolve at a certain time

[41:13] and so did I did I differ from a lot of

[41:16] trauma people I think that your adapted

[41:18] child and wounded children are going to

[41:19] be with you till the day you die

[41:22] but they'll have left they'll be less

[41:23] intense and they'll have less power over

[41:26] you so I would say they're there they're

[41:30] smaller they're they're less hurt

[41:34] they're less angry and there's more

[41:36] space around them but the space around

[41:39] them is your loving arms that's the key

[41:42] the key is your repairing the three

[41:46] elements to good parenting limits

[41:49] guidance and nurture and right now in

[41:53] the therapy field is all about nurturing

[41:55] those little parts but I got to tell you

[41:58] those little parts can create a lot of

[42:00] havoc in your life so I'm about

[42:02] nurturing them giving them wisdom and

[42:05] giving them limits you're the parent

[42:08] that's beautiful I like it so so what I

[42:12] hear you saying your experience is that

[42:16] those dramatizations can be maybe

[42:18] reduced they can be held better but you

[42:22] see them in your clients thing in a way

[42:24] but with a higher level of conscious

[42:26] awareness around them that's your

[42:28] experience yeah they're still there but

[42:29] they matter less the middle is it just

[42:31] don't matter somebody told me about Ram

[42:34] Dass somebody asked them but now that

[42:37] you're enlightened to you are you still

[42:39] neurotic that's not like your question

[42:42] and I was told he said oh yeah I'm just

[42:45] as neurotic as I always was but before I

[42:47] awakened it was my neurosis and now it's

[42:50] my neurosis so I like that my wound okay

[42:56] it's my wrong just like that

[42:59] so great so maybe everybody in the room

[43:03] has

[43:04] [Applause]

[43:06] [Music]

[43:08] [Applause]

[43:17] so I would say be open questions

[43:21] thoughts about your own relationship

[43:22] about what I said I've been married

[43:25] twice I'm currently in my second

[43:28] marriage the first one was 20 years now

[43:30] I'm into ten years with my second

[43:32] husband and my question is when what

[43:40] what happens when you have one partner

[43:43] in the relationship who's willing and

[43:47] the other one is not and I can see how

[43:58] in my second marriage that there are

[44:01] some qualities that are parts of me

[44:06] being that I'm I I can see that wounded

[44:09] child in as I project it and transfer

[44:14] out and then I can see how I have done

[44:20] some healing and been able to hold

[44:22] myself the integrity of myself around

[44:25] that but then the second marriage I can

[44:28] still see the same qualities they're

[44:31] expressed differently and again I have

[44:36] someone who doesn't quite want to walk

[44:40] with me but I also see that that is also

[44:44] my willingness to walk with me that's

[44:48] great okay that's it if you're with a

[44:59] partner and you're working and they're

[45:01] not it all depends on the spectrum it

[45:04] all depends on what we're talking about

[45:08] I talk a lot about what I call micro

[45:11] disappointment so on Thursday you're in

[45:16] your adult your partner's in his it'll

[45:18] say is it he or she he okay he's in his

[45:21] adapter child when your partner is being

[45:26] in moderate you try and be moderate a

[45:29] couple three times to see if you can get

[45:31] them back if you can't take a break

[45:35] don't keep patting your head against the

[45:37] wall and don't get all bent out of shape

[45:39] because they're not in their adult

[45:41] you're liable to get in your children in

[45:44] two seconds so you got nothing behind my

[45:46] t about you don't have to get into shame

[45:48] because it's got nothing to do with you

[45:50] and you're like oh I call this

[45:53] relational integrity if your partners in

[45:57] the mud pit and you take a deep breath

[46:00] and despite every muscle nerve in your

[46:04] body saying get down in that mud pit

[46:06] with them you don't that is a bad day

[46:10] for your partner a mixed day for the

[46:12] relationship and a marvelous day for you

[46:16] that's relational integrity and I feel

[46:19] that quite often and but then ultimately

[46:24] I lack the intimacy in my relationship

[46:29] yeah well it's that ultimate part that's

[46:31] so difficult if you're feeling overly

[46:35] lonely and that your partner is not at

[46:38] that second level being able to process

[46:40] the relationship make things better

[46:42] whatever try and bring it up if you're

[46:47] stuck between the two of you then to me

[46:49] that is an indication to go see a

[46:51] therapist and see if the therapist can

[46:53] work on them and you want a therapist

[46:57] who's going to be really active and take

[46:59] them on which most therapists don't do

[47:02] so you really want help when you get

[47:04] help but if you can't work it out

[47:06] between the two of you that's a sign to

[47:08] get some help and I'm actually quite

[47:13] happy with my marriage and I love my

[47:15] husband very very much

[47:18] and so right now in this moment you know

[47:25] I I talked to people about what I call

[47:29] making a relational reckoning you're in

[47:34] a relationship you're wondering about it

[47:37] you're stuck with all the imperfections

[47:40] are right up front you ask yourself this

[47:43] question am i getting enough in this

[47:47] relationship to make grieving what I'm

[47:52] not getting okay with me yeah yeah

[47:56] things are getting enough to grieve what

[47:58] I'm not getting and if the answer's no

[48:01] I'm not then go back there and fight but

[48:03] if the answer is yes like for you then

[48:06] let go of what you're not getting feel

[48:08] the grief of it and embrace what you are

[48:10] getting and don't walk around like a big

[48:12] victim right yeah okay thank you as you

[48:18] are speaking my lower stomach just

[48:22] clenched in terms of oh my gosh this is

[48:28] like I hope this isn't the future of

[48:31] what relating has to offer

[48:33] because it seems like we're sort of

[48:37] compensating and I was very curious like

[48:40] what if anything you saw it might be the

[48:44] next frontier of what's possible in

[48:48] relationships I the focus on my work for

[48:55] the last 30-plus years has been trying

[48:59] to help men and women both gay and

[49:01] straight same-sex heterosexual moved

[49:06] beyond patriarchy because I think the

[49:09] patriarchal system has no interest in

[49:12] intimacy in fact is frightened by

[49:15] intimacy is frightened by adults likes

[49:19] children and so I think the next step

[49:24] and I'm watching young people and I'm

[49:26] very pleased with but think I'm a big

[49:29] fan of millennial men

[49:31] yeah you know what for all of your much

[49:39] commented upon narcissism millennial men

[49:43] are the most egalitarian expect joint

[49:47] decision-making expect to help out in

[49:49] the house by and large are universally

[49:51] for gay marriage we've come a long way

[49:55] in 50 years of the women's movement and

[49:59] the men's movement and I'm a big look

[50:03] where we're headed is true mutuality

[50:10] between the sexes and true mutuality in

[50:15] your living room in your bedroom it's

[50:20] not it's not just about compensating for

[50:24] what isn't but the shadow will always be

[50:26] with us and we'll always have to work

[50:27] with the shadow that's where the juice

[50:29] comes in a tronic the Harvard researcher

[50:33] taught me harmony disharmony repairer

[50:37] he's been researching this for 20 years

[50:40] he believes it's the move from

[50:42] disharmony back into repair that makes

[50:45] for a deep relationship that is what

[50:48] intimacy is it's not you know we all

[50:51] long for perfection we all longed to be

[50:55] with a god or goddess I have guys I have

[50:58] narcissistic guys who walk in and

[51:01] actually have a list of what they want

[51:04] you know they've dated for 20 years they

[51:06] can't find the right one so I actually

[51:08] have them write the list you know long

[51:11] legs speaks three languages a porn queen

[51:14] in the bedroom but CEO in the boardroom

[51:18] and I say I haven't read it out loud and

[51:22] then I say you know the only question

[51:24] you got to ask yourself is if you could

[51:26] find this woman what would she want with

[51:29] you

[51:32] [Applause]

[51:43] we long for perfection and we feel

[51:46] deeply entitled to perfection to be

[51:48] honest but it's the collision of your

[51:53] human imperfections with mine that makes

[51:56] the relationship

[51:57] it's the collision of your dark and my

[52:01] dark and how we manage it both

[52:03] individually and of the couple that is

[52:06] the stuff of intimacy so I just think

[52:13] it's a process and each turn of the

[52:17] wheel can drive you deeper deeper into

[52:20] your own material and deeper into

[52:22] trusting your partner to handle it and

[52:25] and Terry that going into that depth I

[52:28] think is the second part of my question

[52:29] which is what role do you think

[52:34] integrating that those childhood traumas

[52:37] and wounds might how might that impact

[52:41] relationships going into the future I

[52:43] mean it do you think that could actually

[52:46] be one of the keys to opening up a

[52:51] greater intimacy because I'm no longer

[52:54] carrying that baggage around from the

[52:56] past yes although I still think you are

[52:59] carrying around that baggage from the

[53:00] past I just think that it's not as

[53:03] powerful a force in your life as you do

[53:06] the work you know what happens is it's

[53:14] like self-esteem if I may you started

[53:18] off like this shame shame shame

[53:20] grandiosity health health grandiosity

[53:23] grand initiation and as you do this work

[53:27] because I teach people to intervene on

[53:29] self-esteem when they're 1-up bring

[53:32] yourself down when you're one down bring

[53:34] yourself up and what happens is that

[53:36] over time and I'm talking a few years

[53:40] as you're intervening it goes like shame

[53:43] okay health health health of grandiosity

[53:46] ah

[53:47] and as you intervene the spikes get less

[53:51] they're less intense you recover faster

[53:54] and the bottom line is you spend more

[53:56] base line becomes hell same thing with a

[53:59] couple the starts off fighting distance

[54:02] fighting distance or in connection and

[54:05] as you deal with your wounding and you

[54:07] deal with your partner the disruptions

[54:10] are less intense you recover from them

[54:13] more quickly and they're less frequent

[54:14] so the net-net is you're enjoying each

[54:18] other's company a hell of a lot more and

[54:20] and this also might be part of the

[54:23] spiritual journey then it's all

[54:25] spiritual it's all spiritual except

[54:31] there are some moments when Belinda I

[54:32] don't think is but I suspect he would

[54:40] disagree but something you just said

[54:44] really like grabbed me and it was in

[54:48] talking about what we expect in a

[54:50] partner and he said we all want gods yes

[54:53] and I was wondering if you could talk

[54:55] about the importance of a higher power

[54:57] the connection is you know Thomas would

[54:59] say to the Meridian as a necessary

[55:03] component to a relationship like if you

[55:06] believe that or if that's necessary as

[55:08] well you know um the poet TS Eliot wrote

[55:14] a stanza I like a lot with relationships

[55:16] he said between the ideal and the real

[55:21] Falls the shadow between the ideal and

[55:25] the real Falls the shadow and I believe

[55:31] that what we ultimately want in our

[55:33] relationships is perfect union and it's

[55:38] our grappling with our partners humanity

[55:40] and our own which makes for real

[55:43] intimacy maybe angels can be you know

[55:46] perfectly commune with one another all

[55:48] the time

[55:49] I think personally that might be a

[55:53] little boring but I'm Jewish so you

[55:55] never know I'm in New York or two so I

[56:03] don't I I don't I don't hold up the

[56:08] ideal or the wish for unbroken communion

[56:14] there's another level there's one level

[56:18] at which it keeps breaking all the time

[56:20] and we have to keep correcting for it

[56:23] there's another level at which I trust

[56:25] me and Belinda to correct for it and

[56:27] that's what stays unbroken is our

[56:30] process not the particulars that make

[56:33] sense to you yes and I'm just what I'm

[56:39] hearing and maybe you can kind of expand

[56:41] on it is the relationship is the path to

[56:43] God that there is no ideal there is no

[56:46] ideal that relationship and I have a

[56:49] saying for my patients I don't want

[56:51] anybody to do better than me and Belinda

[56:53] it makes me mad

[56:57] so you can be as ideal as I am and no

[57:00] more I think it's the I think it's the

[57:05] reality of our relationships it's the

[57:08] opportunity I don't want a perfect

[57:12] relationship the perfect relationship

[57:14] isn't going to drive me deeper into my

[57:16] work it's precisely grappling with my

[57:19] imperfection and yours that is the

[57:21] engine that drives me down that's what I

[57:24] want and so just for clarification the

[57:28] the idea of a higher power whatever that

[57:31] is how does that factor into your

[57:33] relationship with Belinda well there

[57:38] were parts of me and I think that's what

[57:41] I've been talking about that would make

[57:42] her my higher power and be dependent on

[57:46] that and then be pretty nasty when she

[57:50] didn't meet my expectation

[57:52] and I talked to people who are

[57:58] codependent that way your love addicted

[58:00] that way about reappropriation abundance

[58:04] your partner didn't walk off with all

[58:06] the abundance is still right here with

[58:08] you and so I think if you can stay

[58:10] centered and you can stay in touch with

[58:13] something that's alive and vital in you

[58:15] then the wear and tear the relationship

[58:19] it becomes your Dharma it becomes the

[58:24] point of your awareness instead of an

[58:28] oppressive force that you're trapped by

[58:32] the thing doesn't change is our

[58:35] relationship to the thing that changes

[58:39] we're talking a lot about dyads

[58:43] and I'm just wondering for me the

[58:49] question is is the next frontier a dyad

[58:52] alone and what's the role for community

[58:59] yeah that's a great question I hope that

[59:03] next frontier is not for diets alone I

[59:05] think there's too many dyads alone as

[59:07] things now stand and you know it's what

[59:14] my friend asked there Parral calls the

[59:16] grand ambition of love we ask that other

[59:20] person to be for us what a whole village

[59:23] used to be for us and it's a lot to ask

[59:27] so I hope that there is ongoing support

[59:32] I talked to because patriarchal culture

[59:35] does not support adults intimacy

[59:39] recovery transformation I asked the

[59:44] people I work with before I let them go

[59:46] out into the world to create what I call

[59:48] a relationship cherishing subculture

[59:51] around them and their family friends

[59:55] support groups 12-step groups meditation

[59:58] groups but something that's going to

[1:00:00] feed that alive part of you in a way

[1:00:03] that the culture doesn't

[1:00:05] so I'm hoping to change the culture at

[1:00:09] large but until it changes I want you to

[1:00:12] create a little culture around you

[1:00:14] another part of the question would be

[1:00:17] how do you relate to pull the amorous

[1:00:19] relations polyamorous relations what

[1:00:22] kind of relations totally I'm

[1:00:24] polyamorous yeah so the question is you

[1:00:28] know there's a whole movement that is

[1:00:31] coming up more and more in the culture

[1:00:33] that says ok monogamous relationships

[1:00:36] are maybe not the call of our future so

[1:00:38] how do you how do you work with this how

[1:00:41] how do you related my favorite quote is

[1:00:46] alexandre dumas he wrote the chains of

[1:00:51] matrimony are so heavy it takes two

[1:00:55] people to carry them sometimes three

[1:01:13] polyamory is not infidelity

[1:01:16] infidelity is not a good thing and

[1:01:19] because there's always transgression and

[1:01:21] there's always lying polyamory is

[1:01:23] precisely trying to eradicate that by

[1:01:27] being open

[1:01:28] I have no theories little rule book

[1:01:32] about how they're whether you should be

[1:01:35] monogamous or an open marriage for

[1:01:37] example when I'm training heterosexual

[1:01:41] therapists you have to let them know

[1:01:45] that in male gay culture monogamy is not

[1:01:48] necessarily the norm it's at least as

[1:01:52] prevalent certainly before AIDS it was

[1:01:54] prevalent now it's coming back that it

[1:01:56] be a primary relationship with slings on

[1:01:59] the side that don't interfere I call it

[1:02:02] the European model no offense

[1:02:12] so there all sorts of ways to arrange

[1:02:16] this but the key is is it compassionate

[1:02:20] there's a really intimate and connected

[1:02:22] if it's polyamorous are both people

[1:02:25] equally wanting it or is some person

[1:02:27] going along in a power-play that's got

[1:02:30] to be thought about but there there's no

[1:02:32] rules about how to do this I'm working

[1:02:35] with a bunch of young people right now

[1:02:37] and there are three girls becoming boys

[1:02:41] and a number of these kids want to be

[1:02:45] called they and I was invited recently

[1:02:48] to a party called a fuck gender party so

[1:02:51] I'm trying to see what the changes are

[1:02:54] in the youth around gender it seems

[1:02:58] tremendous at least in these colleges

[1:03:01] that I've been part of and how you see

[1:03:04] them relating so differently choosing a

[1:03:07] gender yeah not wanting to be identified

[1:03:10] with a gender yeah and how to work

[1:03:14] relationship that is kind of not so

[1:03:18] gender based well I think we're

[1:03:21] exploding the concept of gender

[1:03:23] altogether and men being manly and women

[1:03:34] being women Lee it turns out to be

[1:03:38] really helpful in the bedroom and that's

[1:03:43] about it as far as I can see

[1:03:47] I like whole people and I think we were

[1:03:51] heading is whole people I want to have

[1:03:54] strong big-hearted responsible men and I

[1:03:58] want to have competent assertive loving

[1:04:02] voiced women and I want us all to be

[1:04:05] whole and what gender socialization does

[1:04:09] is it takes aim at us and gives us half

[1:04:12] of our human qualities and surrenders

[1:04:15] the other half to the other sex

[1:04:17] stop and the most concrete example that

[1:04:20] are these kids who are changing genders

[1:04:23] or gender I know a kid a friend of ours

[1:04:27] he's got hair down the toenails and

[1:04:30] finger polish makeup and a smoking-hot

[1:04:35] girlfriend

[1:04:36] and it's like welcome to 2018 fine with

[1:04:42] me

[1:04:42] those aren't the key the key is do you

[1:04:46] have integrity do you tell the truth

[1:04:48] are you with yourself are you with the

[1:04:50] other person are you compassionate this

[1:04:53] is the same no matter what the structure

[1:04:55] of the relationship is before we get to

[1:04:58] the next question there's one little

[1:04:59] tool I wanted to if I might give give

[1:05:03] you I promised myself I'd do this before

[1:05:06] you laugh and what I'm working on these

[1:05:08] days is teaching people how to stand up

[1:05:11] from themselves with love stand up for

[1:05:15] yourself with love you see I believe

[1:05:20] that in patriarchy you can either be

[1:05:23] connected or you can be powerful but you

[1:05:27] can't be both at the same time women are

[1:05:31] connected men are the man the feminine

[1:05:33] is connected the masculine is powerful

[1:05:35] and there's no union and so what I'm

[1:05:40] teaching people in my office these days

[1:05:42] is how to say I don't like what you're

[1:05:46] doing could you please do it this way

[1:05:47] instead of that way in a way that leaves

[1:05:50] the partner feeling cherished even while

[1:05:52] you're correcting things and the way you

[1:05:56] do that is by appreciating them before

[1:05:59] you give them the feedback stating your

[1:06:03] good intentions I'm saying this to you

[1:06:05] because I want to be closer to you and

[1:06:08] it's moving from negative language to

[1:06:11] positive language a people in general

[1:06:15] and men in particular are criticism

[1:06:18] phobic you don't need criticism just

[1:06:21] make your requests

[1:06:23] I would really like it if you would not

[1:06:26] dot which gives your partner the chance

[1:06:29] to do it as opposed to a complaint which

[1:06:32] gives them nothing but an apology so I

[1:06:37] want people to be more proactive about

[1:06:39] their relationships and less presentable

[1:06:41] and really reach in and shape your

[1:06:45] partner I would like 10 minutes of

[1:06:48] empathic listening empathic means

[1:06:50] they're there I'm sorry that sucks tell

[1:06:53] me more about it could you give me ten

[1:06:55] minutes of that I want people to say

[1:06:56] that up front rather than wait speak

[1:07:01] have your partner fail and then

[1:07:03] criticize them for failing our

[1:07:06] relationship to relationships in this

[1:07:09] culture is passive you get what you get

[1:07:12] and then you deal with it I want us to

[1:07:15] wake up identify what our wants and

[1:07:18] needs are put them out in the spirit

[1:07:21] that you're not entitled sometimes

[1:07:23] you'll get them sometimes you won't but

[1:07:24] they're worth to try and put them out in

[1:07:27] a way that cherishes your partner and

[1:07:29] cherishes the relationship at the same

[1:07:31] time that you're cherishing yourself for

[1:07:34] standing up for yourself so for example

[1:07:37] instead of I don't like how you're

[1:07:40] talking to me you better stop talking to

[1:07:42] me like that you say I want to hear what

[1:07:45] you have to say could you tone it down

[1:07:48] so I could really listen two ways of

[1:07:51] saying the same thing I'll tell you a

[1:07:55] story I like story so I had a young

[1:07:57] couple and it was a classic heterosexual

[1:08:00] deal he wanted sex all the time

[1:08:02] she wanted sex none of the time so I got

[1:08:07] them talking off of their positions on

[1:08:10] to what a sex mean and like a lot of men

[1:08:14] for this young man sex meant closeness

[1:08:16] and desirability and that he's loved

[1:08:19] that he's cared for so he floated this

[1:08:21] kind of true story two weeks later they

[1:08:23] come back to raw grams is solved I say

[1:08:27] okay what does he do he said the woman

[1:08:30] said the next time my husband came up

[1:08:33] and wanted sex

[1:08:34] instead of my usual I walked over to him

[1:08:38] gave him a hug and gave him a big kiss I

[1:08:41] looked him in the eyes and I said the

[1:08:44] first thing I want you to know is you

[1:08:45] are really hot I am really attracted to

[1:08:49] you you're a wonderful man you're a

[1:08:52] wonderful lover physically I think you

[1:08:54] really handsome and no I don't want sex

[1:08:56] right now

[1:09:01] and to everyone's amazement he went okay

[1:09:08] [Applause]

[1:09:13] give to your partner even why you're

[1:09:16] asking from something from them give

[1:09:18] them I have two questions one is more

[1:09:22] about you we were entertaining the

[1:09:25] question earlier I guess to Mister day

[1:09:27] about what keeps us on our path what got

[1:09:29] us there and I'm wondering what what in

[1:09:32] your life turned you to face patriarchy

[1:09:34] in the honest way that you have and the

[1:09:38] second question is when relationships

[1:09:42] don't work is that often I'm wondering

[1:09:45] if it when the when the child is not

[1:09:47] behind the adult but in the driver's

[1:09:50] seat and then chooses a relationship

[1:09:52] from that place do those relationships

[1:09:55] end up not working out often because you

[1:09:58] might if you've had trauma trauma as a

[1:10:00] child you might really pick someone

[1:10:01] who's really not good for you

[1:10:02] yeah great questions both Wow

[1:10:07] how did I get involved with my new

[1:10:11] around two really faced honestly being a

[1:10:14] man and I'm Yours ago I remember picking

[1:10:16] up your work and thinking wow this guy

[1:10:17] really challenges men and I found that

[1:10:20] you just didn't like do equal in there

[1:10:22] or anything you were really like well

[1:10:23] you know you guys have a lot of work to

[1:10:25] do women have been doing their work and

[1:10:26] now it's your turn and I thought that

[1:10:28] was really refreshing and honest and

[1:10:30] totally well

[1:10:32] [Laughter]

[1:10:37] like this what gave you the courage to

[1:10:39] do that because that had to come from

[1:10:41] you first I guess like was there a

[1:10:43] person that you talked tell you I was

[1:10:50] bathed as a child in the most maybe not

[1:10:55] the most but certainly a toxic form of

[1:10:58] masculine power and that's been my Karma

[1:11:03] that's been my Zen koan what is right

[1:11:07] relationship to power in general and

[1:11:09] masculine power in particular and

[1:11:15] earlier in my life I was grandiose and I

[1:11:20] seized that power in ways that were not

[1:11:22] useful later in life I tried to divest

[1:11:26] of the power I had because I thought it

[1:11:28] was destructive and I'm sitting here

[1:11:33] with you now and Thomas I feel in pretty

[1:11:41] right relationship to power

[1:11:42] let it flow through you and don't own it

[1:11:44] and be grateful

[1:11:46] so that's patriarchy in terms of and I

[1:11:50] just passionate that the traditional

[1:11:55] roles of men and women cut off men and

[1:11:58] unhappy women is the norm and we have to

[1:12:02] disassemble that structure if we're

[1:12:05] really going to be happy with each other

[1:12:09] I'm not I'm not blown away when couples

[1:12:13] part if they're children involved I

[1:12:16] prefer that they say together but if

[1:12:18] they're not meant for each other than

[1:12:19] not in terms of adaptive children

[1:12:22] picking your partner yes it can work

[1:12:24] well because that's mostly what happens

[1:12:30] and there are times when it's time to go

[1:12:33] I mean you were if you have one partner

[1:12:36] who is egregiously abusive or and not

[1:12:42] interested in doing any of the work it

[1:12:43] may be time to go that has to do with

[1:12:46] that relational reckoning that I talked

[1:12:48] about but I don't believe in staying

[1:12:50] miserable for eternity because of some

[1:12:55] Duty I don't think it works so I want

[1:12:58] people break up that's okay with me what

[1:13:01] I don't want is a continuation of the

[1:13:03] same miserable pattern over and over and

[1:13:06] over again if they transform great if

[1:13:09] they dissolve less great but I don't

[1:13:13] want them just beating the crap out of

[1:13:14] each other

[1:13:15] unto death I guess what I'm getting is

[1:13:19] that there's something about self-esteem

[1:13:20] the building up his self-esteem when you

[1:13:23] reach that humble moment of realizing

[1:13:26] you've been a jerk or something like

[1:13:27] that you know my friend Mel Bach Holtz

[1:13:29] mentored me on that and again a friend

[1:13:33] of mine malbok Holtz was my explicit

[1:13:35] mentor about how I was becoming

[1:13:38] successful and it went to my head and I

[1:13:41] was a jerk

[1:13:42] and I knew it and people confronted me

[1:13:44] about it and I went to people and I said

[1:13:46] how do I handle this and my friend Mel

[1:13:49] said you stand right up into the power

[1:13:53] you don't pretend it's smaller than it

[1:13:56] is you let it be big but it's not yours

[1:13:59] it's passing through you so you're proud

[1:14:03] of your cooperation with it and your

[1:14:06] part in it but you neither pretend it's

[1:14:09] smaller than it is nor do you own it I

[1:14:12] think that's where we are

[1:14:14] it's communion Rianne Eisler talks about

[1:14:18] a model of power over which is

[1:14:21] patriarchy or power with and I think

[1:14:24] power width is the new territory for all

[1:14:27] of us say hallelujah I mean I'm asking

[1:14:31] this in part because I think Humanity is

[1:14:33] facing the same situation in regards to

[1:14:35] our more than human world and and it's

[1:14:38] like that humble moment it is facing us

[1:14:40] and

[1:14:41] how do we do that and I guess I just got

[1:14:43] the answer so thank you you're welcome

[1:14:45] yeah early on you said something about

[1:14:48] men being hypersensitive to criticism

[1:14:51] and I wanted you maybe to share a little

[1:14:53] bit more if you can talk about that what

[1:14:55] a stupid question no I will actually

[1:15:05] it's actually a complex answer they're

[1:15:07] about five strands that go together to

[1:15:11] make men defensive and I'm not gonna do

[1:15:14] them all but in traditionally men's

[1:15:17] self-esteem is not inside out it's

[1:15:21] outside in that's how the culture

[1:15:23] teaches us and it's particularly for men

[1:15:26] about performance I can do I can do I

[1:15:29] can get a close this deal I can give my

[1:15:33] wife in Oregon everything becomes a

[1:15:34] Performa and when the performance goes

[1:15:36] you go and so a lot of men have a very

[1:15:42] high stand on the world of man its power

[1:15:44] over its one upper one down you're

[1:15:46] either a winner or a loser and so

[1:15:49] somebody's confronting you about some

[1:15:51] imperfection a lot of men will feel like

[1:15:54] if I let this in I'm sunk if I let this

[1:15:58] in I'm worthless

[1:15:59] it's either perfect or worthless and so

[1:16:03] they protect their own fragile sense of

[1:16:05] self-esteem by warding off the issue of

[1:16:08] the criticism a woman can help by being

[1:16:12] less critical and more instructive this

[1:16:15] is what I would like but at the end of

[1:16:17] the day it's our job to deal with that

[1:16:19] we have to understand that our value is

[1:16:22] not based on externals our value comes

[1:16:25] from our hearts and that's a big lesson

[1:16:28] for men right now

[1:16:33] so well we almost at the end of our time

[1:16:37] is there anything anything that you want

[1:16:40] to share anything that hasn't been said

[1:16:42] that you think is important to you yeah

[1:16:46] I want to really profoundly thank you

[1:16:55] for bringing me and for your support of

[1:16:58] my work and Amy is Amy here somewhere

[1:17:02] yeah Amy my darling

[1:17:08] and I want to thank you this this was

[1:17:11] easiest thought from used to sitting

[1:17:12] when you know behind a podium and slides

[1:17:14] and being a professor and it feels a

[1:17:18] little naked to be out here and I felt

[1:17:23] wonderfully received by all of you so I

[1:17:26] just want to thank you for welcoming me

[1:17:28] thank you

[1:17:29] [Applause]

Thomas Huebl
ArtistThomas Huebl

Thomas Hübl is a spiritual teacher and author who bridges mysticism and collective trauma healing. Since 2004, he has taught over 100,000 students through programs focused on syste…

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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

First consciousness is your automatic, knee-jerk response rooted in family patterns and survival strategies. Real identifies three types: fight (aggression/reactivity), flight (stonewalling/dissociation), and fix (problem-solving to manage tension). In relationships, first consciousness triggers before you can think, making conflict resolution and intimacy difficult.
When you feel the urge to react (the 'woosh'), pause and reach for your prefrontal cortex—the thinking, deliberate part of your brain. Real calls this 'relational mindfulness.' Breathe, get centered, recognize that your partner's bad day doesn't have to become your bad day, then respond from presence rather than protection.
Simply being aware of your automatic reaction is not enough. Real emphasizes that awareness must be paired with deliberate action—reaching for a different part of yourself that can think, regulate, and choose. Mindfulness without conscious choice is still passive; spiritual relationship requires active presence.
It means recognizing the protective mechanisms you developed as a child (the 'little you') with compassion, while not letting them run your adult life. Like a loving parent, you acknowledge the wound but set boundaries: 'I hear you, you kept me safe then, but you don't need to protect me this way now.'
No, according to Real. You can be spiritual in meditation or solitude, but true spirituality in relationships means accessing consciousness even when triggered. The real measure of spiritual maturity is whether you can shift from automatic reactivity to conscious presence when your partner activates your deepest patterns.
Real asks: 'Which part of you am I speaking to?' not to diagnose pathology, but to determine whether the person is operating from triggered, reactive first consciousness or from a centered, adult, present-based second consciousness. Relationship quality depends more on this than on external stressors.
Relationships are spiritual practice because they reliably activate the automatic patterns you most need to heal. Your partner becomes your mirror and teacher. The minute-to-minute choice between reacting from wounds and responding from wholeness is the real spiritual work—more demanding and real than abstract meditation.

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