Transcript
[0:05] so Terry welcome welcome
[0:08] I'm happy you made it and you came here
[0:10] it's a joy to be here it's a joy to be
[0:13] with you Thomas it's really great to be
[0:14] here with hmm likewise thank you my
[0:17] class so I'm very happy that today you
[0:20] will share your wisdom with everybody
[0:24] and maybe let's start with let's start
[0:29] with maybe what what made you be
[0:33] interested in in working with couples I
[0:35] think now why did you choose that track
[0:41] well they say the therapists or people
[0:45] who need to be in therapy 40 hours a
[0:46] week truly i I need all the help I can
[1:00] get I come from a dysfunctional family
[1:05] as I've written about my mom was
[1:10] ineffective my dad was depressed and
[1:12] violent both emotionally and physically
[1:15] and I honestly believe I became a
[1:18] therapist to figure out how to heal
[1:19] myself and then I became a couples and
[1:23] Family Therapist to figure out how they
[1:25] had to have a relationship because what
[1:28] I saw growing up and what I saw in the
[1:29] culture gave me no equipment whatsoever
[1:33] and so I said about trying to figure out
[1:36] how to do this I like to say every man
[1:47] that I work with in therapy is really my
[1:49] father
[1:50] and every man I heal is my father and
[1:53] every man I don't heal is my father and
[1:57] I grew up pretty much in a war zone and
[2:02] let me let me say more generally I
[2:06] believe that what we want now in
[2:10] relationships myself included is
[2:12] historically brand-new
[2:14] I believe that we have never seriously
[2:18] wanted intimacy in our long-term
[2:22] relationships and marriage we want a
[2:24] companionship and stability and now all
[2:28] of us really want to be lifelong lovers
[2:30] we want long walks on the beach and
[2:32] holding hands and sex in our 70s and
[2:35] beyond and but our culture patriarchal
[2:39] culture which we all live under simply
[2:43] doesn't give us the tools to realize
[2:47] that an ambition and so most of us are
[2:51] walking around pretty frustrated in our
[2:53] relationships and we all know who's to
[2:57] blame so that was the morning lecture so
[3:17] I think I've been thinking a lot well
[3:20] first of all let me say to the group a
[3:21] couple of things this is coming out for
[3:23] me for a number of reasons this is the
[3:26] first time I presented around the world
[3:28] this is the first time I've ever
[3:29] presented barefoot
[3:35] so I expect some real embodied
[3:37] information to come through and you know
[3:44] I've been meditating and practicing for
[3:46] over 45 years and I'm known at the
[3:50] therapist and this is really the first
[3:52] time I'm speaking publicly about
[3:53] spiritual work and inhabiting that if
[3:57] somebody we can speak about spiritual
[3:59] works so thank you all thank you that's
[4:02] amazing I've been thinking about what
[4:08] the what might be useful and I think I'd
[4:12] like to start off with the idea of
[4:13] relationships as a spiritual practice to
[4:15] begin with because um it was really the
[4:22] great spiritual teacher Krishnamurti who
[4:24] said that true autonomy is freedom from
[4:28] our own automatic responses and I don't
[4:33] know of a crucible that will evoke
[4:36] automatic responses better so I talked
[4:44] about first and second consciousness I
[4:46] thought I might start there
[4:48] your first consciousness is your
[4:50] knee-jerk response it comes out of your
[4:53] family of origin adaptation and it's
[4:57] automatic and it's very visceral talk
[5:00] about woosh wh-wh-whoa as it comes up
[5:04] from the feet and it feels like the
[5:06] thing you must do if you don't do this
[5:10] the world's gonna fall apart now I've
[5:12] been doing this for thirty years and let
[5:15] me give you an exercise the first order
[5:18] of business is I've only seen three
[5:20] categories of first consciousness
[5:24] fight/flight and you can be standing six
[5:28] inches away from somebody and fleeing
[5:29] right though it's called stonewalling a
[5:31] lot of men know how to do that
[5:33] wha-wha-wha wha-wha-wha-wha and then
[5:37] fixing which we therapist specialized
[5:41] and that's like oh my god there's some
[5:43] tension in the room let me take it that
[5:44] yeah so let me let me see hands how many
[5:49] of you are fighters first consciousness
[5:51] fighters
[5:51] that's your knee-jerk response come on
[5:54] be proud get him up there how many
[5:58] players and how many fixtures you fixers
[6:09] can't give Thomas feedback about how we
[6:11] did today my wife Linda and I did a a
[6:19] workshop on codependence we got the best
[6:22] evaluations it was like oh they're so
[6:25] good they're great everybody thought we
[6:26] were J anyway so here's the thing you
[6:37] can be spiritual on the pillow not a big
[6:40] problem be spiritual when your partner
[6:44] is in your face screaming at you so I
[6:47] mean that be spiritual when you're
[6:50] feeling abandoned be spiritual when
[6:53] you're in the dark night of soul in a
[6:55] relationship and you think your
[6:57] relationship is a big mistake
[6:59] and you're trapped in it being spiritual
[7:01] then and what I mean by be spiritual
[7:05] then is that when you feel that woosh
[7:09] you reach for a different part different
[7:12] part of the soul that's part of the
[7:14] psyche prefrontal cortex in the brain
[7:16] you reach for a part of you that can
[7:19] stop and breathe and think and be
[7:24] deliberate I have a little Institute
[7:29] we're always struggling you know and I
[7:31] have merchandise ideas I want to do a
[7:34] dr. Terry action figure at some point I
[7:37] think that would be really great we all
[7:40] had shitty childhoods get over it
[7:44] [Laughter]
[7:49] but I want to get a t-shirt that says
[7:52] relational living on the front and I
[7:54] choose door B on the back so it goes
[8:00] like this I'm a fighter I grew up in a
[8:03] fighting family my wife Belinda is a
[8:04] fighter she grew up in a fighting family
[8:06] our first consciousnesses fight so I
[8:10] would come not now because we're in
[8:13] pretty good recovery and our kids are
[8:15] grown when the kids were a lot easier
[8:22] all right so give you a lot of
[8:25] opportunity and then I stop and we look
[8:31] at each other and we smile and one will
[8:33] say I just want to thank you for giving
[8:35] me this opportunity to work on myself
[8:39] that goes over real well anyway you
[8:45] reach for a different part so I would
[8:48] come home after being on the road like
[8:50] this Belinda would be with little kids
[8:51] and I would be met with rage with
[8:55] self-righteous finding that you left me
[8:57] here alone with the kids blah blah blah
[8:59] blah blah blah blah and my wish would be
[9:03] rage what I like to say what I what my
[9:07] body wants to do is Bopper in the nose
[9:09] but being a feminist I would relegate
[9:15] myself to verbal abuse I come home from
[9:24] teaching people have a lucky chance to
[9:26] put up with a bullshit
[9:36] so that's Dora a I know what lies door
[9:44] behind door a I've been behind door a a
[9:46] million times so in this moment you know
[9:50] one of the things is that people say
[9:51] intimacy and relationships take work but
[9:54] nobody tells you where what it is and I
[9:57] think the work of intimacy is not day by
[10:00] day its minute to minute seriously in
[10:04] this moment right now am I gonna go this
[10:08] way or am I gonna go that way am I gonna
[10:10] go with this part of my soul or am I
[10:11] gonna do with this part of my soul am I
[10:13] gonna go with automatic or am I going to
[10:16] go with conscious and for me it's not
[10:21] enough just to be aware that's it that's
[10:25] a good first step
[10:26] some but it's not just mindfulness
[10:29] you're aware of your automatic reaction
[10:32] you're aware of what's going on in front
[10:34] of you and on a good day if the Linda
[10:37] goes like that and I have my wish
[10:40] I'll stop a voice inside of me will say
[10:44] Terry shut up
[10:46] that's a very wise voice and breathe and
[10:51] get centered and put up a boundary
[10:54] Belinda's having a bad day you don't
[10:56] have to make her bad day your bad day
[10:58] now protected centered present to her is
[11:03] there anything useful and then I say
[11:07] honey you're right you've been with the
[11:09] kids you sit down pour glass of wine
[11:10] I'll put in the bed and then we'll talk
[11:13] that door B is only possible to me
[11:17] because I've shifted my consciousness
[11:19] and I call this relational mindfulness
[11:22] shifting out of the automatic part of us
[11:26] I caught the adaptive child or wounded
[11:28] child part of the triggered part of us
[11:29] to the present based thoughtful part of
[11:32] us that can love because one of the
[11:37] great questions is not when I'm faced
[11:40] with a couple
[11:42] and unless you get a question in the
[11:44] minute when I'm faced with a couple the
[11:47] most important question for me is the
[11:48] therapist is not as I speak to them what
[11:52] are the external stressors a good couple
[11:54] can handle straw and it isn't even
[11:56] primarily what's the dynamic between the
[11:59] two of them although that's critical the
[12:01] critical question is this which part of
[12:04] you am I speaking to
[12:06] am i speaking to the centered adult
[12:09] present based part of you that can do
[12:11] something or am i speaking to a
[12:13] triggered child part of you that's taken
[12:15] control of the wheel and the first order
[12:18] of business is to is for us to deal with
[12:24] the inner children that get kicked up in
[12:26] us and not voice them off on our
[12:28] partners to deal with so I like to say
[12:31] when an inner child kicks up you want to
[12:34] put them on your lap put your arms
[12:36] around them love them and demote them
[12:40] take your hands off the steering wheel
[12:42] and get in the back seat and I'll just
[12:46] say this last thing I want to hear from
[12:48] you um this is what I tell my clients
[12:51] when Belinda and I are having a fight I
[12:54] will literally take little Terry I have
[12:57] a composite about eight years old I've
[12:59] worked with him a lot and I'll put them
[13:02] behind me and I'll say look here's our
[13:06] deal you and me I will protect you from
[13:09] the blast or what's coming from my
[13:10] partner
[13:11] you know like Superman with this cape
[13:13] I'll take the air you are completely
[13:16] protected back there but don't you try
[13:20] and deal with Belinda you let me deal
[13:23] with Belinda I can do a better job so
[13:26] I'm loving and protecting and containing
[13:29] those immature parks and I'm reaching
[13:32] into the relationship with a more aware
[13:35] mature part that's the two-step process
[13:37] and what gives you the power to do that
[13:40] so how how do you like because when we
[13:44] when we are in this fights so what
[13:48] decides if we have the
[13:50] presence or the awareness to connect to
[13:53] the mature part and what what is the
[13:58] probability to stay stuck in that young
[14:01] part so what is actually helpful for us
[14:04] to learn to be more in the adult part
[14:07] what is to practice what can strengthen
[14:09] that part well there cuz I talked about
[14:12] top-down practice work and bottom-up
[14:15] detailing work and in the therapy I've
[14:20] created is called relational life
[14:21] therapy we do both and actually between
[14:25] the two the top-down practice is the
[14:27] most important part people get that
[14:29] wrong because the bottom-up healing is
[14:31] very emotional and cathartic it's kind
[14:34] of sexy the top-down practices every day
[14:37] in the moment discipline and I was very
[14:42] pleased a friend of mine said because
[14:44] I'm big on discipline a friend of mine
[14:46] said the actual meaning of the word
[14:48] discipline is to be a disciple to be
[14:52] devoted to something so in that moment I
[14:57] am trying to remember I'm doing my best
[15:00] to remember and it gets better as you
[15:02] practice it but don't talk about it I
[15:04] try to remember that my wife is not the
[15:10] enemy this is not a zero-sum game the
[15:14] minute one's a winner and one's a loser
[15:16] were we're both losing and I try and
[15:20] awaken a relational consciousness which
[15:25] is really an ecological consciousness my
[15:28] wife and I are creating a biosphere
[15:31] called our marriage and is in my
[15:36] interest to keep that biosphere clean
[15:38] it's not for her it's for me
[15:41] and so I talk to people about what I
[15:43] call enlightened self-interest once you
[15:47] start thinking ecologically about your
[15:49] relationship you're not above it you're
[15:50] in it and so you can indulge yourself
[15:54] for example and pollute over there with
[15:56] a lot of nastiness
[15:58] but you breathe it in over here and a
[16:01] lot of passive-aggressive
[16:03] returned and so I try to stay awake to
[16:06] my own interest it's like there's a part
[16:09] of me that wants to win or prove myself
[16:13] right or control her or retaliate or all
[16:16] those strategies and I let that come I'm
[16:21] sure you all have this experience no I
[16:24] mean it
[16:24] have you not had the experience of the
[16:27] gorge rising and on the tip of the
[16:30] tongue is the nasty thing and you take a
[16:32] breath then you bring yourself back down
[16:35] okay can I see hands have you have you
[16:37] had that experience
[16:38] yeah we all know how to do that so it's
[16:42] just and the other part that I love is
[16:45] that this can be actively cultivated
[16:48] that you can set your mind to do more of
[16:51] it
[16:52] in the moment and it's just like going
[16:55] to the gym you build those muscles the
[16:57] first time I did it I was terrible at it
[16:59] the 3000th time I did it I was okay now
[17:03] sometimes you have to take a break then
[17:05] go off by yourself and get recenter
[17:08] that's fine
[17:10] but you make a commitment that you're
[17:16] gonna use the heat of the moment not to
[17:19] control the other person but to get
[17:23] centered inside yourself to do some work
[17:25] inside yourself with that trigger and
[17:28] that's the commitment and that's how you
[17:31] use up and do you think that your
[17:34] spiritual practice of 40 years as you
[17:37] said before helped you with that yes it
[17:40] helps me a lot there's a great I learned
[17:46] this from al-anon but I think it's
[17:49] central to most spiritual traditions the
[17:51] idea of detachment for outcome and when
[17:55] I'm in it in my relationship I have been
[17:59] captured by an agenda I want something
[18:02] to happen I've got to get through to her
[18:05] she has to say she's sorry or you know
[18:08] if something's got a had about
[18:10] and I think my 40 years of meditation
[18:13] has allowed me to it's funny I've do a
[18:21] lot of work with addictions and young
[18:23] said that the cure for addictions had to
[18:25] be spiritual and I think the cure for
[18:27] all of this has to be spiritual because
[18:30] when I'm triggered it's about control
[18:33] it's about fear and anger and control
[18:36] and when I'm in my adult Hmong I'm
[18:39] centered it's about being in the moment
[18:43] with what's there or whatever that is
[18:46] but I don't ask my clients to give up
[18:50] control unless there's some faith in the
[18:55] benevolence of something that's going to
[18:56] hold them up and I think without that
[18:59] faith in we call it basic trust without
[19:02] that faith and what's ultimately spirit
[19:04] the buoyancy of being held up it's very
[19:08] hard to have a healthy relationship
[19:10] without that faith so that faith is a
[19:16] kind of a resource that we built through
[19:21] our spiritual practice when that faith
[19:23] is not there yet or if it hasn't been
[19:26] established yet so how do you work with
[19:29] somebody how do you work with somebody
[19:31] that hasn't developed that faith yet
[19:34] that there is something enablement
[19:36] holding them what would you do then well
[19:40] I think the first relationship that we
[19:42] have to work on it's kind of a cliche
[19:44] but the first one is our relationship to
[19:47] ourselves and so the first skills I
[19:49] teach people are self esteem and
[19:50] boundaries I had a guy he was the son of
[19:57] an artist he was himself a renowned
[19:59] artist the son of a famous artist the
[20:03] grandson of a very we all know who this
[20:05] great artist and he's a sculptor and he
[20:10] told me that every day in his childhood
[20:13] every single day his artist father would
[20:16] come home and see what he'd been
[20:18] building and he would take it out of his
[20:21] hands and he throw it in the waste
[20:22] every day I was like and he had no sense
[20:28] of self-esteem whatsoever none he's
[20:31] never felt self-love and here's the
[20:33] punchline he was 80 years old so I
[20:38] didn't exercise with him
[20:39] I did a Buddhist Metta exercise i hanim
[20:43] many people know it I had him construct
[20:46] the field of love because he was a very
[20:49] good father and he knew how to love his
[20:50] kids and I hadn't put his kids in that
[20:53] field of love and feel love for them and
[20:57] then I took them out and I had him put
[21:00] himself as a little boy in that field
[21:03] and feel permeated by love and then I
[21:07] had him bring that little boy into his
[21:09] body and let love suffuse his body and
[21:15] when he was done I asked him how it was
[21:17] and he said I love this he was quite a
[21:19] poet he said it's a little sugar and the
[21:22] coffee cup you know you know self-esteem
[21:30] is something we all talk about but very
[21:32] few people teach people how to do it
[21:34] it's really about holding on to the
[21:38] thread of connection to yourself in a
[21:40] warm loving way even when you're
[21:43] screwing up or being imperfect and
[21:46] there's also relational esteem which is
[21:49] similar it's holding your partner in
[21:51] warm regard even when they're being a
[21:53] complete jerk and disappointing you and
[21:59] so these things can be taught and
[22:01] practiced and then the deep work is
[22:05] about moving into these trickered States
[22:07] doing trauma work to release some of the
[22:10] energy that you've taken off that work -
[22:15] in the work I do is relational a lot of
[22:19] people release trauma out into the world
[22:20] or the sky or whatever following my
[22:24] mentor Pia melody I believe in bringing
[22:28] imaginatively the people in the room who
[22:31] traumatized here if you can handle it
[22:35] and then you give back the energy that
[22:39] you took from them back to them this is
[22:42] yours thanks a lot I don't wanna
[22:45] so you clear out some of that deep work
[22:48] and then you you actively practice I
[22:52] gave a talk with them Cornel West the
[22:58] premier American scholar on race and
[23:02] Gloria Steinem Cornell was on my right
[23:05] Gloria was on my left they were giving
[23:08] talks and I was in the middle and
[23:11] Cornell got a standing ovation and
[23:13] Gloria got a standing ovation I wouldn't
[23:16] go there when I got but my wife my wife
[23:20] it's all the way in the back room and
[23:22] she cracked up because she could see me
[23:24] looking down at the floor saying to
[23:27] myself I'm enough and I matter I'm
[23:29] enough my kids do this I've got a 29
[23:43] year old kid they make great fun of
[23:45] having two therapists for parents they
[23:47] got a great routine but Mike Kim a 29
[23:49] year old will still say I screwed up the
[23:51] test I know dad I'm enough for my mat or
[23:53] even worse than that so south love is
[24:01] really critical and an ecological vision
[24:05] understanding that is in your interest
[24:08] to make things right between you and
[24:10] your partner it's not bending over so
[24:14] they win and you lose
[24:15] it's in your interest happy wife happy
[24:17] life as they say
[24:24] so you shared with me before there's the
[24:30] negative image that you create of your
[24:32] partner maybe you want to talk about a
[24:34] little more negative image yeah the core
[24:36] negative image at the concept I think
[24:38] that's a beautiful way to check oneself
[24:41] and be a triggered something great so
[24:43] here's a tool that you can all use I
[24:46] promised that I would oh good we got
[24:48] lots of time
[24:48] no I would download some tools this is I
[24:51] wrote about this in the book the new
[24:53] rules of marriage you can read it there
[24:54] I also if I can feed whatever please
[24:59] come to my website just Terry real calm
[25:02] there's all sorts of resources there in
[25:06] your core negative image is who you see
[25:12] your partner as being when you're
[25:15] looking through the spectacles of your
[25:17] partner is the biggest asshole that ever
[25:19] lived in life who use when you're there
[25:22] and you're going this is impossible I
[25:25] made a terrible mistake marrying this
[25:28] person's that is your core negative
[25:32] image of them and your core negative
[25:36] image is the good news about it is
[25:38] that's consistent it's not a moving
[25:41] target can you imagine if it moved how
[25:45] difficult couples have the same fight
[25:48] for 40 years one fight it's one image so
[25:55] your core negative image of your partner
[25:57] is an exaggerated version of them at
[26:01] their worst an exaggerated version of
[26:06] your partner at his or her worst it's
[26:08] not them at best it's not even them at
[26:10] baseline that's not even an accurate
[26:13] description of them it's kind of like a
[26:15] purple you know journalist description a
[26:18] very flowery description of you or worse
[26:20] but it okay having said that it is
[26:23] nevertheless true Crump sorry to say
[26:31] see I'll do me in Belinda because I'll
[26:35] come out so Belinda has a core negative
[26:39] image of being as a narcissistic
[26:43] charming irresponsible undependable
[26:46] manchild
[26:47] oh boy I know you're all laughing
[26:58] because you're thinking how sick must
[27:00] that woman be to think anyway my core
[27:10] negative image of Belinda is that she is
[27:13] an insatiable critical demanding
[27:15] controlling witch yeah I feel very fine
[27:25] about coming out of the closet because
[27:27] this is not a rare heterosexual pairing
[27:30] these two here's how it works so I come
[27:39] home after being on the road but Linda's
[27:40] there with the little kids they're all
[27:42] now but whatever she flashes out and
[27:45] she's in a rage when I come home and
[27:48] she's seeing me through the spectacles
[27:51] of this manchild this boy if I know that
[27:56] that's her core negative image a number
[27:58] of things were possible for me one is I
[28:01] don't have to take it personally no
[28:03] that's big that's bound your words I
[28:05] don't have to get all triggered and bent
[28:07] out of shape because she's seen me that
[28:09] way
[28:09] it's like well this is recording I know
[28:11] she's talking to that boy I got it I
[28:13] know what she's thinking so it really
[28:15] helps with boundaries and then the other
[28:18] thing is if you can tolerate hearing
[28:21] your partner's core negative image of
[28:23] you and vice versa and they should only
[28:24] be like five words the way I said it
[28:27] don't go on and on
[28:31] if you know what your partner's
[28:33] coordinating event you have operating
[28:35] instructions because your partner's
[28:38] coordinating ativ image of you points in
[28:40] the opposite direction of where you want
[28:43] to go
[28:44] so if Melinda sees me as irresponsible
[28:48] and I go oh you're making too much of
[28:51] those so go see I knew you were
[28:54] responsible look at the way he answered
[28:55] that her core negative image guess what
[29:00] triggers my core negative image of her
[29:02] the minute she starts criticizing me
[29:04] then she's an insatiable witch and our
[29:08] core negative images are arguing with
[29:10] each other we could sit down and have a
[29:11] beer so if you know where your partner's
[29:22] core negative images of you it takes a
[29:25] lot of the sting out of it because what
[29:27] happens is your partner tries to get
[29:30] through to you about what's wrong
[29:31] they're very exaggerated in what they're
[29:34] describing you react to the negative
[29:37] exaggeration and the grain of truth in
[29:41] what gets in what's being said gets lost
[29:43] and so the way out of a core negative
[29:47] image is to be accountable yes I did it
[29:51] you're right I'm sorry
[29:53] and maybe even compassionate I can see
[29:56] how you might feel bad but you can't do
[29:58] that if your core negative image
[30:01] triggered and you don't know that you're
[30:03] not on run away so anything I do this
[30:06] feeling responsible Belinda will be
[30:09] pleased by anything I do that's really
[30:10] irresponsible I know it should be
[30:12] triggered by anything that she says to
[30:14] me that's really appreciative I love and
[30:17] anything she says to me that's really
[30:19] critical will really rile me
[30:21] so there are operating instructions for
[30:24] your relationship so basically when you
[30:26] work with people you you work with them
[30:29] on seeing that core negative image and
[30:31] then sharing it with their partner and
[30:34] kind of an intimate maybe facilitated
[30:36] space so that they both can learn to see
[30:39] their core negative images operating
[30:41] with each other that's the word
[30:42] that's exactly right in the spirit of
[30:45] this is an exaggerated version of you at
[30:48] your all-time worst and I don't ask
[30:53] people to share coordinated images until
[30:55] they've done some boundary work and some
[30:58] self-esteem work otherwise it'll be too
[31:00] overwhelming for that and
[31:04] so what do those core negative images
[31:09] serve so if if it comes up for the
[31:12] person so what do they serve - they have
[31:15] a function that they serve that's a
[31:17] great question
[31:20] well this opens up quite a can of worms
[31:22] your core negative image is a cop it's a
[31:28] wound it's always based on a wound or a
[31:31] fear which is also alone and your core
[31:35] negative image is really a combination
[31:36] of the family of origin childhood
[31:40] wounding that you bring to the table
[31:41] that you miss reading with the fact that
[31:46] you hired somebody to do exactly the
[31:51] torturous thing they're doing to you so
[31:54] when people say to me it is my partner
[31:57] really doing this to me or am I
[31:59] overreacting because of my childhood the
[32:01] answer is yes it's both and I call this
[32:06] the mysticism of marriage we falling in
[32:10] love means that you believe whether
[32:13] you're too sophisticated to say it aloud
[32:15] or not that with this person all will be
[32:18] well you will be relieved of your family
[32:22] of origin wounding this will this will
[32:25] complete you this will heal you or at
[32:27] the very least you'll avoid on that grab
[32:29] that's who we fall in love with we all
[32:34] marry someone who's exquisitely designed
[32:37] to stick the Burning Spear into our
[32:40] eyeball
[32:52] this does not mean you're in a bad
[32:54] marriage for a long-term relationship it
[32:57] means are in a marriage this is what it
[32:59] is
[33:01] and our culture gives us no tools or
[33:05] help in navigating how dark that gets
[33:09] it's really dark I talk about the dark
[33:10] night of the soul
[33:11] I follow infant observational research
[33:14] at tronic in particular he got this by
[33:18] watching mothers and infants all
[33:20] relationships are advance of harmony
[33:24] disharmony and repair closeness
[33:27] disruption and return and that plays out
[33:34] in a relationship 20 times during the
[33:37] course of one dinner or I can play out
[33:39] over ten years as a fade the first phase
[33:43] I call love without knowledge that's the
[33:47] Harmony phase the honeymoon phase and I
[33:50] do believe there's a soul recognition
[33:52] that this is my person but you don't
[33:54] know what they do with their closets or
[33:56] their bills or their underwear it's all
[34:03] very glossy and partly that is true
[34:08] because real I don't lie when you're
[34:13] dating somebody don't you lie don't you
[34:16] present a better picture I remember I
[34:18] forgot something and we drove off and it
[34:21] closed it was late and Belinda said oh
[34:24] I'm not the kind of girl who worries
[34:25] about that sort of thing yeah right
[34:28] thirty years later anyway so harmony
[34:32] phase I call it love without knowledge
[34:34] the disharmony phase or disillusionment
[34:37] I call knowledge without love now you
[34:42] see really clearly all the person's
[34:44] limitations but you're not very empathic
[34:46] in fact you're feeling pretty trapped
[34:50] and what our culture doesn't teach
[34:53] people is that this is really this hurts
[34:56] this is dark
[34:57] you're really wondering if you belong
[34:59] there that is normal that's where the
[35:03] skills come in to get you from
[35:05] disillusionment back into repair and
[35:08] repair I call it mature love or knowing
[35:10] love this is where you see very clearly
[35:13] your partner's imperfections and you
[35:16] choose to love them anyway as imperfect
[35:19] as they are and that's the rhythm of
[35:22] really harmony disharmony repair and
[35:24] we're always falling out of balance and
[35:27] needing to get back into balance out of
[35:29] balance into balance so maturity would
[35:34] be to know how to embrace that cycle
[35:37] maturity would be to know how to embrace
[35:40] that cycle yes he when we're in it and
[35:46] you got the Burning Spear in my eye I am
[35:50] one triggered human being I'm all about
[35:52] my childhood and my wounding mm-hmm what
[35:58] I want to do what we all naturally want
[36:01] to do is I want to get out of that
[36:04] wounding by getting you to do the nice
[36:07] thing for me that would heal me and you
[36:11] know the road to hell is paved with good
[36:13] intentions I believe it's my impulse to
[36:17] get you to do for me and then to
[36:20] retaliate either actively or passively
[36:22] when you don't that produces most of the
[36:25] difficulty so what happens is that in
[36:29] this moment of the heat of the rewarding
[36:32] if I can lay off getting you to give it
[36:35] to me and I can give it to me I can take
[36:39] that little Terry and I can put them on
[36:42] my lap and I can soothe them and I can
[36:44] tell them you can't yell at Belinda I'll
[36:45] take care of it if I can do something
[36:48] different then that might evoke a truly
[36:52] different response from you and that
[36:54] heals the world there's not a direct
[36:57] shot of you heal me it's we heal me by
[37:01] the work that I do inside the relay
[37:04] does that make sense yeah yeah right and
[37:06] so so I hear you talk about the top-down
[37:10] work that we need to do the discipline
[37:13] the moment-to-moment practice and I
[37:16] heard you talk about this cycle so I
[37:18] would love to hear a little bit more and
[37:19] maybe then we can open yeah I'd be great
[37:23] space here but how do you work with what
[37:27] you mentioned before that a part of the
[37:30] work is working on the original
[37:33] dramatization that underlies the hold
[37:36] and Allah creates the whole dynamics so
[37:38] how what's your what you experience what
[37:41] works what doesn't work
[37:43] I mean is there hope is there no hope in
[37:52] the relational life therapy there's
[37:54] three phases three domains
[37:58] the first is confrontation confrontation
[38:01] Thomas this is what you're doing to blow
[38:03] your own foot off most therapists don't
[38:05] do that they're all about nurture and
[38:08] they don't confront with the truth
[38:10] see I believe that answer missing is the
[38:12] conjunction of truth and love you were
[38:15] talking about the feeling of being seen
[38:17] I would bet that if we were to ask
[38:21] people's most deep experience of feeling
[38:24] seen they would also be feeling loved in
[38:26] the way in who was seeing them that's
[38:29] healing and so I would do some work
[38:33] around the trauma I'd get the person to
[38:36] with their permission to begin to react
[38:39] cess that trauma I would ask you Thomas
[38:42] how old are you in this moment
[38:45] psychologically I'm eight and then I
[38:48] would do inner child work with that
[38:50] eight-year-old and I would bring that
[38:52] eight-year-old out of your body
[38:53] I would have you talked together I would
[38:57] have you the adult say to that little
[38:59] boy what he needed to hear back then and
[39:02] too near and then what he needs to tell
[39:06] you about what it's like to be him and
[39:08] then the ultimate punchline of that
[39:12] process is when you the adults say to
[39:15] the little you
[39:16] I'm here now I can take care of you you
[39:20] don't have to be alone with us anymore
[39:23] so it's not primarily release work
[39:26] although we do that to its primary
[39:28] relational work I am going to tend to
[39:32] you the little me and conversely you're
[39:36] not going to run the show that's that's
[39:39] how it works the inner child work tends
[39:44] to be extremely emotional
[39:46] you know people crying people throw up
[39:48] people whatever but to me the important
[39:53] thing is to send you home with a
[39:56] relationship between you and those
[39:58] triggered parts of you and with a sense
[40:01] that you are the steward of those parts
[40:04] my friend dick Schwartz I'm sure a lot
[40:07] of people no ifs here dick Schwartz
[40:08] internal family systems says you know
[40:11] you're okay when you don't speak from a
[40:13] part you speak for the part and it
[40:17] really has to do with which part of you
[40:19] is at the wheel so the work I do with
[40:23] the trigger wounding is healing work
[40:29] between you and those younger parts of
[40:31] you and then I send all of you back into
[40:37] the fray with your beloved that's how it
[40:41] work so basically what I hear says you
[40:45] create an atonement of the person to the
[40:48] part that is where the trauma rests and
[40:50] to create an awareness and a holding
[40:52] that kind of an internal embrace can
[40:55] happen from the mature part to hold that
[40:57] traumatized part yes that's exactly
[40:59] right and do you see those
[41:01] dramatizations to dissolve slowly or do
[41:04] you see that they stay but there is a
[41:07] bigger space around them
[41:10] yeah do they dissolve at a certain time
[41:13] and so did I did I differ from a lot of
[41:16] trauma people I think that your adapted
[41:18] child and wounded children are going to
[41:19] be with you till the day you die
[41:22] but they'll have left they'll be less
[41:23] intense and they'll have less power over
[41:26] you so I would say they're there they're
[41:30] smaller they're they're less hurt
[41:34] they're less angry and there's more
[41:36] space around them but the space around
[41:39] them is your loving arms that's the key
[41:42] the key is your repairing the three
[41:46] elements to good parenting limits
[41:49] guidance and nurture and right now in
[41:53] the therapy field is all about nurturing
[41:55] those little parts but I got to tell you
[41:58] those little parts can create a lot of
[42:00] havoc in your life so I'm about
[42:02] nurturing them giving them wisdom and
[42:05] giving them limits you're the parent
[42:08] that's beautiful I like it so so what I
[42:12] hear you saying your experience is that
[42:16] those dramatizations can be maybe
[42:18] reduced they can be held better but you
[42:22] see them in your clients thing in a way
[42:24] but with a higher level of conscious
[42:26] awareness around them that's your
[42:28] experience yeah they're still there but
[42:29] they matter less the middle is it just
[42:31] don't matter somebody told me about Ram
[42:34] Dass somebody asked them but now that
[42:37] you're enlightened to you are you still
[42:39] neurotic that's not like your question
[42:42] and I was told he said oh yeah I'm just
[42:45] as neurotic as I always was but before I
[42:47] awakened it was my neurosis and now it's
[42:50] my neurosis so I like that my wound okay
[42:56] it's my wrong just like that
[42:59] so great so maybe everybody in the room
[43:03] has
[43:04] [Applause]
[43:06] [Music]
[43:08] [Applause]
[43:17] so I would say be open questions
[43:21] thoughts about your own relationship
[43:22] about what I said I've been married
[43:25] twice I'm currently in my second
[43:28] marriage the first one was 20 years now
[43:30] I'm into ten years with my second
[43:32] husband and my question is when what
[43:40] what happens when you have one partner
[43:43] in the relationship who's willing and
[43:47] the other one is not and I can see how
[43:58] in my second marriage that there are
[44:01] some qualities that are parts of me
[44:06] being that I'm I I can see that wounded
[44:09] child in as I project it and transfer
[44:14] out and then I can see how I have done
[44:20] some healing and been able to hold
[44:22] myself the integrity of myself around
[44:25] that but then the second marriage I can
[44:28] still see the same qualities they're
[44:31] expressed differently and again I have
[44:36] someone who doesn't quite want to walk
[44:40] with me but I also see that that is also
[44:44] my willingness to walk with me that's
[44:48] great okay that's it if you're with a
[44:59] partner and you're working and they're
[45:01] not it all depends on the spectrum it
[45:04] all depends on what we're talking about
[45:08] I talk a lot about what I call micro
[45:11] disappointment so on Thursday you're in
[45:16] your adult your partner's in his it'll
[45:18] say is it he or she he okay he's in his
[45:21] adapter child when your partner is being
[45:26] in moderate you try and be moderate a
[45:29] couple three times to see if you can get
[45:31] them back if you can't take a break
[45:35] don't keep patting your head against the
[45:37] wall and don't get all bent out of shape
[45:39] because they're not in their adult
[45:41] you're liable to get in your children in
[45:44] two seconds so you got nothing behind my
[45:46] t about you don't have to get into shame
[45:48] because it's got nothing to do with you
[45:50] and you're like oh I call this
[45:53] relational integrity if your partners in
[45:57] the mud pit and you take a deep breath
[46:00] and despite every muscle nerve in your
[46:04] body saying get down in that mud pit
[46:06] with them you don't that is a bad day
[46:10] for your partner a mixed day for the
[46:12] relationship and a marvelous day for you
[46:16] that's relational integrity and I feel
[46:19] that quite often and but then ultimately
[46:24] I lack the intimacy in my relationship
[46:29] yeah well it's that ultimate part that's
[46:31] so difficult if you're feeling overly
[46:35] lonely and that your partner is not at
[46:38] that second level being able to process
[46:40] the relationship make things better
[46:42] whatever try and bring it up if you're
[46:47] stuck between the two of you then to me
[46:49] that is an indication to go see a
[46:51] therapist and see if the therapist can
[46:53] work on them and you want a therapist
[46:57] who's going to be really active and take
[46:59] them on which most therapists don't do
[47:02] so you really want help when you get
[47:04] help but if you can't work it out
[47:06] between the two of you that's a sign to
[47:08] get some help and I'm actually quite
[47:13] happy with my marriage and I love my
[47:15] husband very very much
[47:18] and so right now in this moment you know
[47:25] I I talked to people about what I call
[47:29] making a relational reckoning you're in
[47:34] a relationship you're wondering about it
[47:37] you're stuck with all the imperfections
[47:40] are right up front you ask yourself this
[47:43] question am i getting enough in this
[47:47] relationship to make grieving what I'm
[47:52] not getting okay with me yeah yeah
[47:56] things are getting enough to grieve what
[47:58] I'm not getting and if the answer's no
[48:01] I'm not then go back there and fight but
[48:03] if the answer is yes like for you then
[48:06] let go of what you're not getting feel
[48:08] the grief of it and embrace what you are
[48:10] getting and don't walk around like a big
[48:12] victim right yeah okay thank you as you
[48:18] are speaking my lower stomach just
[48:22] clenched in terms of oh my gosh this is
[48:28] like I hope this isn't the future of
[48:31] what relating has to offer
[48:33] because it seems like we're sort of
[48:37] compensating and I was very curious like
[48:40] what if anything you saw it might be the
[48:44] next frontier of what's possible in
[48:48] relationships I the focus on my work for
[48:55] the last 30-plus years has been trying
[48:59] to help men and women both gay and
[49:01] straight same-sex heterosexual moved
[49:06] beyond patriarchy because I think the
[49:09] patriarchal system has no interest in
[49:12] intimacy in fact is frightened by
[49:15] intimacy is frightened by adults likes
[49:19] children and so I think the next step
[49:24] and I'm watching young people and I'm
[49:26] very pleased with but think I'm a big
[49:29] fan of millennial men
[49:31] yeah you know what for all of your much
[49:39] commented upon narcissism millennial men
[49:43] are the most egalitarian expect joint
[49:47] decision-making expect to help out in
[49:49] the house by and large are universally
[49:51] for gay marriage we've come a long way
[49:55] in 50 years of the women's movement and
[49:59] the men's movement and I'm a big look
[50:03] where we're headed is true mutuality
[50:10] between the sexes and true mutuality in
[50:15] your living room in your bedroom it's
[50:20] not it's not just about compensating for
[50:24] what isn't but the shadow will always be
[50:26] with us and we'll always have to work
[50:27] with the shadow that's where the juice
[50:29] comes in a tronic the Harvard researcher
[50:33] taught me harmony disharmony repairer
[50:37] he's been researching this for 20 years
[50:40] he believes it's the move from
[50:42] disharmony back into repair that makes
[50:45] for a deep relationship that is what
[50:48] intimacy is it's not you know we all
[50:51] long for perfection we all longed to be
[50:55] with a god or goddess I have guys I have
[50:58] narcissistic guys who walk in and
[51:01] actually have a list of what they want
[51:04] you know they've dated for 20 years they
[51:06] can't find the right one so I actually
[51:08] have them write the list you know long
[51:11] legs speaks three languages a porn queen
[51:14] in the bedroom but CEO in the boardroom
[51:18] and I say I haven't read it out loud and
[51:22] then I say you know the only question
[51:24] you got to ask yourself is if you could
[51:26] find this woman what would she want with
[51:29] you
[51:32] [Applause]
[51:43] we long for perfection and we feel
[51:46] deeply entitled to perfection to be
[51:48] honest but it's the collision of your
[51:53] human imperfections with mine that makes
[51:56] the relationship
[51:57] it's the collision of your dark and my
[52:01] dark and how we manage it both
[52:03] individually and of the couple that is
[52:06] the stuff of intimacy so I just think
[52:13] it's a process and each turn of the
[52:17] wheel can drive you deeper deeper into
[52:20] your own material and deeper into
[52:22] trusting your partner to handle it and
[52:25] and Terry that going into that depth I
[52:28] think is the second part of my question
[52:29] which is what role do you think
[52:34] integrating that those childhood traumas
[52:37] and wounds might how might that impact
[52:41] relationships going into the future I
[52:43] mean it do you think that could actually
[52:46] be one of the keys to opening up a
[52:51] greater intimacy because I'm no longer
[52:54] carrying that baggage around from the
[52:56] past yes although I still think you are
[52:59] carrying around that baggage from the
[53:00] past I just think that it's not as
[53:03] powerful a force in your life as you do
[53:06] the work you know what happens is it's
[53:14] like self-esteem if I may you started
[53:18] off like this shame shame shame
[53:20] grandiosity health health grandiosity
[53:23] grand initiation and as you do this work
[53:27] because I teach people to intervene on
[53:29] self-esteem when they're 1-up bring
[53:32] yourself down when you're one down bring
[53:34] yourself up and what happens is that
[53:36] over time and I'm talking a few years
[53:40] as you're intervening it goes like shame
[53:43] okay health health health of grandiosity
[53:46] ah
[53:47] and as you intervene the spikes get less
[53:51] they're less intense you recover faster
[53:54] and the bottom line is you spend more
[53:56] base line becomes hell same thing with a
[53:59] couple the starts off fighting distance
[54:02] fighting distance or in connection and
[54:05] as you deal with your wounding and you
[54:07] deal with your partner the disruptions
[54:10] are less intense you recover from them
[54:13] more quickly and they're less frequent
[54:14] so the net-net is you're enjoying each
[54:18] other's company a hell of a lot more and
[54:20] and this also might be part of the
[54:23] spiritual journey then it's all
[54:25] spiritual it's all spiritual except
[54:31] there are some moments when Belinda I
[54:32] don't think is but I suspect he would
[54:40] disagree but something you just said
[54:44] really like grabbed me and it was in
[54:48] talking about what we expect in a
[54:50] partner and he said we all want gods yes
[54:53] and I was wondering if you could talk
[54:55] about the importance of a higher power
[54:57] the connection is you know Thomas would
[54:59] say to the Meridian as a necessary
[55:03] component to a relationship like if you
[55:06] believe that or if that's necessary as
[55:08] well you know um the poet TS Eliot wrote
[55:14] a stanza I like a lot with relationships
[55:16] he said between the ideal and the real
[55:21] Falls the shadow between the ideal and
[55:25] the real Falls the shadow and I believe
[55:31] that what we ultimately want in our
[55:33] relationships is perfect union and it's
[55:38] our grappling with our partners humanity
[55:40] and our own which makes for real
[55:43] intimacy maybe angels can be you know
[55:46] perfectly commune with one another all
[55:48] the time
[55:49] I think personally that might be a
[55:53] little boring but I'm Jewish so you
[55:55] never know I'm in New York or two so I
[56:03] don't I I don't I don't hold up the
[56:08] ideal or the wish for unbroken communion
[56:14] there's another level there's one level
[56:18] at which it keeps breaking all the time
[56:20] and we have to keep correcting for it
[56:23] there's another level at which I trust
[56:25] me and Belinda to correct for it and
[56:27] that's what stays unbroken is our
[56:30] process not the particulars that make
[56:33] sense to you yes and I'm just what I'm
[56:39] hearing and maybe you can kind of expand
[56:41] on it is the relationship is the path to
[56:43] God that there is no ideal there is no
[56:46] ideal that relationship and I have a
[56:49] saying for my patients I don't want
[56:51] anybody to do better than me and Belinda
[56:53] it makes me mad
[56:57] so you can be as ideal as I am and no
[57:00] more I think it's the I think it's the
[57:05] reality of our relationships it's the
[57:08] opportunity I don't want a perfect
[57:12] relationship the perfect relationship
[57:14] isn't going to drive me deeper into my
[57:16] work it's precisely grappling with my
[57:19] imperfection and yours that is the
[57:21] engine that drives me down that's what I
[57:24] want and so just for clarification the
[57:28] the idea of a higher power whatever that
[57:31] is how does that factor into your
[57:33] relationship with Belinda well there
[57:38] were parts of me and I think that's what
[57:41] I've been talking about that would make
[57:42] her my higher power and be dependent on
[57:46] that and then be pretty nasty when she
[57:50] didn't meet my expectation
[57:52] and I talked to people who are
[57:58] codependent that way your love addicted
[58:00] that way about reappropriation abundance
[58:04] your partner didn't walk off with all
[58:06] the abundance is still right here with
[58:08] you and so I think if you can stay
[58:10] centered and you can stay in touch with
[58:13] something that's alive and vital in you
[58:15] then the wear and tear the relationship
[58:19] it becomes your Dharma it becomes the
[58:24] point of your awareness instead of an
[58:28] oppressive force that you're trapped by
[58:32] the thing doesn't change is our
[58:35] relationship to the thing that changes
[58:39] we're talking a lot about dyads
[58:43] and I'm just wondering for me the
[58:49] question is is the next frontier a dyad
[58:52] alone and what's the role for community
[58:59] yeah that's a great question I hope that
[59:03] next frontier is not for diets alone I
[59:05] think there's too many dyads alone as
[59:07] things now stand and you know it's what
[59:14] my friend asked there Parral calls the
[59:16] grand ambition of love we ask that other
[59:20] person to be for us what a whole village
[59:23] used to be for us and it's a lot to ask
[59:27] so I hope that there is ongoing support
[59:32] I talked to because patriarchal culture
[59:35] does not support adults intimacy
[59:39] recovery transformation I asked the
[59:44] people I work with before I let them go
[59:46] out into the world to create what I call
[59:48] a relationship cherishing subculture
[59:51] around them and their family friends
[59:55] support groups 12-step groups meditation
[59:58] groups but something that's going to
[1:00:00] feed that alive part of you in a way
[1:00:03] that the culture doesn't
[1:00:05] so I'm hoping to change the culture at
[1:00:09] large but until it changes I want you to
[1:00:12] create a little culture around you
[1:00:14] another part of the question would be
[1:00:17] how do you relate to pull the amorous
[1:00:19] relations polyamorous relations what
[1:00:22] kind of relations totally I'm
[1:00:24] polyamorous yeah so the question is you
[1:00:28] know there's a whole movement that is
[1:00:31] coming up more and more in the culture
[1:00:33] that says ok monogamous relationships
[1:00:36] are maybe not the call of our future so
[1:00:38] how do you how do you work with this how
[1:00:41] how do you related my favorite quote is
[1:00:46] alexandre dumas he wrote the chains of
[1:00:51] matrimony are so heavy it takes two
[1:00:55] people to carry them sometimes three
[1:01:13] polyamory is not infidelity
[1:01:16] infidelity is not a good thing and
[1:01:19] because there's always transgression and
[1:01:21] there's always lying polyamory is
[1:01:23] precisely trying to eradicate that by
[1:01:27] being open
[1:01:28] I have no theories little rule book
[1:01:32] about how they're whether you should be
[1:01:35] monogamous or an open marriage for
[1:01:37] example when I'm training heterosexual
[1:01:41] therapists you have to let them know
[1:01:45] that in male gay culture monogamy is not
[1:01:48] necessarily the norm it's at least as
[1:01:52] prevalent certainly before AIDS it was
[1:01:54] prevalent now it's coming back that it
[1:01:56] be a primary relationship with slings on
[1:01:59] the side that don't interfere I call it
[1:02:02] the European model no offense
[1:02:12] so there all sorts of ways to arrange
[1:02:16] this but the key is is it compassionate
[1:02:20] there's a really intimate and connected
[1:02:22] if it's polyamorous are both people
[1:02:25] equally wanting it or is some person
[1:02:27] going along in a power-play that's got
[1:02:30] to be thought about but there there's no
[1:02:32] rules about how to do this I'm working
[1:02:35] with a bunch of young people right now
[1:02:37] and there are three girls becoming boys
[1:02:41] and a number of these kids want to be
[1:02:45] called they and I was invited recently
[1:02:48] to a party called a fuck gender party so
[1:02:51] I'm trying to see what the changes are
[1:02:54] in the youth around gender it seems
[1:02:58] tremendous at least in these colleges
[1:03:01] that I've been part of and how you see
[1:03:04] them relating so differently choosing a
[1:03:07] gender yeah not wanting to be identified
[1:03:10] with a gender yeah and how to work
[1:03:14] relationship that is kind of not so
[1:03:18] gender based well I think we're
[1:03:21] exploding the concept of gender
[1:03:23] altogether and men being manly and women
[1:03:34] being women Lee it turns out to be
[1:03:38] really helpful in the bedroom and that's
[1:03:43] about it as far as I can see
[1:03:47] I like whole people and I think we were
[1:03:51] heading is whole people I want to have
[1:03:54] strong big-hearted responsible men and I
[1:03:58] want to have competent assertive loving
[1:04:02] voiced women and I want us all to be
[1:04:05] whole and what gender socialization does
[1:04:09] is it takes aim at us and gives us half
[1:04:12] of our human qualities and surrenders
[1:04:15] the other half to the other sex
[1:04:17] stop and the most concrete example that
[1:04:20] are these kids who are changing genders
[1:04:23] or gender I know a kid a friend of ours
[1:04:27] he's got hair down the toenails and
[1:04:30] finger polish makeup and a smoking-hot
[1:04:35] girlfriend
[1:04:36] and it's like welcome to 2018 fine with
[1:04:42] me
[1:04:42] those aren't the key the key is do you
[1:04:46] have integrity do you tell the truth
[1:04:48] are you with yourself are you with the
[1:04:50] other person are you compassionate this
[1:04:53] is the same no matter what the structure
[1:04:55] of the relationship is before we get to
[1:04:58] the next question there's one little
[1:04:59] tool I wanted to if I might give give
[1:05:03] you I promised myself I'd do this before
[1:05:06] you laugh and what I'm working on these
[1:05:08] days is teaching people how to stand up
[1:05:11] from themselves with love stand up for
[1:05:15] yourself with love you see I believe
[1:05:20] that in patriarchy you can either be
[1:05:23] connected or you can be powerful but you
[1:05:27] can't be both at the same time women are
[1:05:31] connected men are the man the feminine
[1:05:33] is connected the masculine is powerful
[1:05:35] and there's no union and so what I'm
[1:05:40] teaching people in my office these days
[1:05:42] is how to say I don't like what you're
[1:05:46] doing could you please do it this way
[1:05:47] instead of that way in a way that leaves
[1:05:50] the partner feeling cherished even while
[1:05:52] you're correcting things and the way you
[1:05:56] do that is by appreciating them before
[1:05:59] you give them the feedback stating your
[1:06:03] good intentions I'm saying this to you
[1:06:05] because I want to be closer to you and
[1:06:08] it's moving from negative language to
[1:06:11] positive language a people in general
[1:06:15] and men in particular are criticism
[1:06:18] phobic you don't need criticism just
[1:06:21] make your requests
[1:06:23] I would really like it if you would not
[1:06:26] dot which gives your partner the chance
[1:06:29] to do it as opposed to a complaint which
[1:06:32] gives them nothing but an apology so I
[1:06:37] want people to be more proactive about
[1:06:39] their relationships and less presentable
[1:06:41] and really reach in and shape your
[1:06:45] partner I would like 10 minutes of
[1:06:48] empathic listening empathic means
[1:06:50] they're there I'm sorry that sucks tell
[1:06:53] me more about it could you give me ten
[1:06:55] minutes of that I want people to say
[1:06:56] that up front rather than wait speak
[1:07:01] have your partner fail and then
[1:07:03] criticize them for failing our
[1:07:06] relationship to relationships in this
[1:07:09] culture is passive you get what you get
[1:07:12] and then you deal with it I want us to
[1:07:15] wake up identify what our wants and
[1:07:18] needs are put them out in the spirit
[1:07:21] that you're not entitled sometimes
[1:07:23] you'll get them sometimes you won't but
[1:07:24] they're worth to try and put them out in
[1:07:27] a way that cherishes your partner and
[1:07:29] cherishes the relationship at the same
[1:07:31] time that you're cherishing yourself for
[1:07:34] standing up for yourself so for example
[1:07:37] instead of I don't like how you're
[1:07:40] talking to me you better stop talking to
[1:07:42] me like that you say I want to hear what
[1:07:45] you have to say could you tone it down
[1:07:48] so I could really listen two ways of
[1:07:51] saying the same thing I'll tell you a
[1:07:55] story I like story so I had a young
[1:07:57] couple and it was a classic heterosexual
[1:08:00] deal he wanted sex all the time
[1:08:02] she wanted sex none of the time so I got
[1:08:07] them talking off of their positions on
[1:08:10] to what a sex mean and like a lot of men
[1:08:14] for this young man sex meant closeness
[1:08:16] and desirability and that he's loved
[1:08:19] that he's cared for so he floated this
[1:08:21] kind of true story two weeks later they
[1:08:23] come back to raw grams is solved I say
[1:08:27] okay what does he do he said the woman
[1:08:30] said the next time my husband came up
[1:08:33] and wanted sex
[1:08:34] instead of my usual I walked over to him
[1:08:38] gave him a hug and gave him a big kiss I
[1:08:41] looked him in the eyes and I said the
[1:08:44] first thing I want you to know is you
[1:08:45] are really hot I am really attracted to
[1:08:49] you you're a wonderful man you're a
[1:08:52] wonderful lover physically I think you
[1:08:54] really handsome and no I don't want sex
[1:08:56] right now
[1:09:01] and to everyone's amazement he went okay
[1:09:08] [Applause]
[1:09:13] give to your partner even why you're
[1:09:16] asking from something from them give
[1:09:18] them I have two questions one is more
[1:09:22] about you we were entertaining the
[1:09:25] question earlier I guess to Mister day
[1:09:27] about what keeps us on our path what got
[1:09:29] us there and I'm wondering what what in
[1:09:32] your life turned you to face patriarchy
[1:09:34] in the honest way that you have and the
[1:09:38] second question is when relationships
[1:09:42] don't work is that often I'm wondering
[1:09:45] if it when the when the child is not
[1:09:47] behind the adult but in the driver's
[1:09:50] seat and then chooses a relationship
[1:09:52] from that place do those relationships
[1:09:55] end up not working out often because you
[1:09:58] might if you've had trauma trauma as a
[1:10:00] child you might really pick someone
[1:10:01] who's really not good for you
[1:10:02] yeah great questions both Wow
[1:10:07] how did I get involved with my new
[1:10:11] around two really faced honestly being a
[1:10:14] man and I'm Yours ago I remember picking
[1:10:16] up your work and thinking wow this guy
[1:10:17] really challenges men and I found that
[1:10:20] you just didn't like do equal in there
[1:10:22] or anything you were really like well
[1:10:23] you know you guys have a lot of work to
[1:10:25] do women have been doing their work and
[1:10:26] now it's your turn and I thought that
[1:10:28] was really refreshing and honest and
[1:10:30] totally well
[1:10:32] [Laughter]
[1:10:37] like this what gave you the courage to
[1:10:39] do that because that had to come from
[1:10:41] you first I guess like was there a
[1:10:43] person that you talked tell you I was
[1:10:50] bathed as a child in the most maybe not
[1:10:55] the most but certainly a toxic form of
[1:10:58] masculine power and that's been my Karma
[1:11:03] that's been my Zen koan what is right
[1:11:07] relationship to power in general and
[1:11:09] masculine power in particular and
[1:11:15] earlier in my life I was grandiose and I
[1:11:20] seized that power in ways that were not
[1:11:22] useful later in life I tried to divest
[1:11:26] of the power I had because I thought it
[1:11:28] was destructive and I'm sitting here
[1:11:33] with you now and Thomas I feel in pretty
[1:11:41] right relationship to power
[1:11:42] let it flow through you and don't own it
[1:11:44] and be grateful
[1:11:46] so that's patriarchy in terms of and I
[1:11:50] just passionate that the traditional
[1:11:55] roles of men and women cut off men and
[1:11:58] unhappy women is the norm and we have to
[1:12:02] disassemble that structure if we're
[1:12:05] really going to be happy with each other
[1:12:09] I'm not I'm not blown away when couples
[1:12:13] part if they're children involved I
[1:12:16] prefer that they say together but if
[1:12:18] they're not meant for each other than
[1:12:19] not in terms of adaptive children
[1:12:22] picking your partner yes it can work
[1:12:24] well because that's mostly what happens
[1:12:30] and there are times when it's time to go
[1:12:33] I mean you were if you have one partner
[1:12:36] who is egregiously abusive or and not
[1:12:42] interested in doing any of the work it
[1:12:43] may be time to go that has to do with
[1:12:46] that relational reckoning that I talked
[1:12:48] about but I don't believe in staying
[1:12:50] miserable for eternity because of some
[1:12:55] Duty I don't think it works so I want
[1:12:58] people break up that's okay with me what
[1:13:01] I don't want is a continuation of the
[1:13:03] same miserable pattern over and over and
[1:13:06] over again if they transform great if
[1:13:09] they dissolve less great but I don't
[1:13:13] want them just beating the crap out of
[1:13:14] each other
[1:13:15] unto death I guess what I'm getting is
[1:13:19] that there's something about self-esteem
[1:13:20] the building up his self-esteem when you
[1:13:23] reach that humble moment of realizing
[1:13:26] you've been a jerk or something like
[1:13:27] that you know my friend Mel Bach Holtz
[1:13:29] mentored me on that and again a friend
[1:13:33] of mine malbok Holtz was my explicit
[1:13:35] mentor about how I was becoming
[1:13:38] successful and it went to my head and I
[1:13:41] was a jerk
[1:13:42] and I knew it and people confronted me
[1:13:44] about it and I went to people and I said
[1:13:46] how do I handle this and my friend Mel
[1:13:49] said you stand right up into the power
[1:13:53] you don't pretend it's smaller than it
[1:13:56] is you let it be big but it's not yours
[1:13:59] it's passing through you so you're proud
[1:14:03] of your cooperation with it and your
[1:14:06] part in it but you neither pretend it's
[1:14:09] smaller than it is nor do you own it I
[1:14:12] think that's where we are
[1:14:14] it's communion Rianne Eisler talks about
[1:14:18] a model of power over which is
[1:14:21] patriarchy or power with and I think
[1:14:24] power width is the new territory for all
[1:14:27] of us say hallelujah I mean I'm asking
[1:14:31] this in part because I think Humanity is
[1:14:33] facing the same situation in regards to
[1:14:35] our more than human world and and it's
[1:14:38] like that humble moment it is facing us
[1:14:40] and
[1:14:41] how do we do that and I guess I just got
[1:14:43] the answer so thank you you're welcome
[1:14:45] yeah early on you said something about
[1:14:48] men being hypersensitive to criticism
[1:14:51] and I wanted you maybe to share a little
[1:14:53] bit more if you can talk about that what
[1:14:55] a stupid question no I will actually
[1:15:05] it's actually a complex answer they're
[1:15:07] about five strands that go together to
[1:15:11] make men defensive and I'm not gonna do
[1:15:14] them all but in traditionally men's
[1:15:17] self-esteem is not inside out it's
[1:15:21] outside in that's how the culture
[1:15:23] teaches us and it's particularly for men
[1:15:26] about performance I can do I can do I
[1:15:29] can get a close this deal I can give my
[1:15:33] wife in Oregon everything becomes a
[1:15:34] Performa and when the performance goes
[1:15:36] you go and so a lot of men have a very
[1:15:42] high stand on the world of man its power
[1:15:44] over its one upper one down you're
[1:15:46] either a winner or a loser and so
[1:15:49] somebody's confronting you about some
[1:15:51] imperfection a lot of men will feel like
[1:15:54] if I let this in I'm sunk if I let this
[1:15:58] in I'm worthless
[1:15:59] it's either perfect or worthless and so
[1:16:03] they protect their own fragile sense of
[1:16:05] self-esteem by warding off the issue of
[1:16:08] the criticism a woman can help by being
[1:16:12] less critical and more instructive this
[1:16:15] is what I would like but at the end of
[1:16:17] the day it's our job to deal with that
[1:16:19] we have to understand that our value is
[1:16:22] not based on externals our value comes
[1:16:25] from our hearts and that's a big lesson
[1:16:28] for men right now
[1:16:33] so well we almost at the end of our time
[1:16:37] is there anything anything that you want
[1:16:40] to share anything that hasn't been said
[1:16:42] that you think is important to you yeah
[1:16:46] I want to really profoundly thank you
[1:16:55] for bringing me and for your support of
[1:16:58] my work and Amy is Amy here somewhere
[1:17:02] yeah Amy my darling
[1:17:08] and I want to thank you this this was
[1:17:11] easiest thought from used to sitting
[1:17:12] when you know behind a podium and slides
[1:17:14] and being a professor and it feels a
[1:17:18] little naked to be out here and I felt
[1:17:23] wonderfully received by all of you so I
[1:17:26] just want to thank you for welcoming me
[1:17:28] thank you
[1:17:29] [Applause]