Transcript
[0:00] it's great that you could come rer
[0:02] really really good pleasure to be here
[0:04] yeah really good to see you so I thought
[0:06] what we'd start with is
[0:09] um I thought we'd start with an
[0:11] experience I had um rather anyway there
[0:14] you go go start somewhere so and I
[0:17] wanted to try and use this little story
[0:19] We meant we we just chatting beforehand
[0:21] as a kind of place to start yeah um so I
[0:25] was a while ago on in summer I was on a
[0:27] monthlong solitary retreat in our
[0:29] tradition we go off on you know Retreats
[0:31] with no no phone no contact with the
[0:34] outside world for for a month um and I I
[0:37] was on this quite intensive solitary
[0:39] Retreat meditating a lot and one time I
[0:42] was walk I you know I did my little walk
[0:44] every day to the end of the valley and
[0:45] look at the the goats which was the most
[0:47] exciting thing that was happening in
[0:50] this very deserted part of Spain the the
[0:53] mountains of Spain and I had this
[0:56] experience which I've had before in fact
[0:58] I've had since I was a child
[1:01] which is that I suddenly sort of stopped
[1:04] and have that sort of sense that if I
[1:08] died here in these these these mountains
[1:10] in Spain um it's a very high up Mountain
[1:13] Valley um it sounds absurd now I try and
[1:17] talk about it but no nothing would care
[1:20] you know I'm I would be just I'd fall
[1:22] down dead you know the goats would be
[1:24] interested in me uh for various reasons
[1:26] um but the Rocks the the trees it's it's
[1:29] nothing to do with me I I I would be
[1:31] dead forever um my Consciousness would
[1:35] be snuffed out um now that isn't a
[1:39] Buddhist view of course uh as we both
[1:41] know um but again I was struck by it you
[1:44] know I've been practicing Buddhism for
[1:45] many years and I was struck by How
[1:48] Deeply I've still got that idea
[1:52] that here who I am me is the only bit of
[1:57] the world that's there that it stops at
[1:59] the periphery of my body um that once I
[2:04] D you know that that the the external
[2:06] world has no connection with me
[2:08] whatsoever and even is sort of not just
[2:11] distinct from me but separate from me
[2:13] even alien from me and therefore if you
[2:16] very quickly threatening to me and of
[2:18] course that means that because that
[2:21] world outside is alien to me I can Frack
[2:24] it I can mine it I can use it as a
[2:27] rubbish dump because it's not alive and
[2:29] soon I won't be alive yeah um that
[2:32] struck me as a basic materialist
[2:35] metaphysical materialist view I had
[2:38] there that my Consciousness was locked
[2:40] inside me inside my brain um that uh
[2:45] everything outside of that was not me
[2:47] and had nothing to do with me that life
[2:50] might exist in other brains in the goats
[2:52] to some degree and in other human beings
[2:54] but nowhere else and uh that when I die
[2:59] you know I would be oblit it at yeah so
[3:02] that what struck me about that and the
[3:03] reason I wanted to talk to you about it
[3:05] is because that's still after many years
[3:08] of spiritual practice of trying to undo
[3:09] that view um it's a view I remember it
[3:14] started for me that view when I I saw my
[3:17] my my father asked me to come and see my
[3:19] grandmother when she when she was dead
[3:21] and I
[3:22] remember this sense I was only about
[3:25] eight and I remember this sense of
[3:28] um you know I went to my grandmother I
[3:31] loved my grandmother very much and my
[3:33] mother said oh she's asleep and I I
[3:36] thought she's definitely not asleep you
[3:39] know I have seen her asleep she was
[3:40] often asleep and she is not asleep and
[3:43] then my father said I think she's gone
[3:44] to a better place and I thought i' I
[3:46] can't see any evidence of that either
[3:49] but what really struck me about that
[3:50] experience was that they didn't know
[3:53] even when I was eight I seemed to know
[3:56] that they didn't know what happened here
[3:58] and I remember thinking this is a major
[4:00] problem we've got here this is a major
[4:03] problem we've got here and nobody
[4:04] clearly knows about it it wasn't as
[4:06] conscious as that so I thought we'd try
[4:09] and start with that what I would call a
[4:11] metaphysical materialist view you know
[4:13] Charles Taylor who you quo talks about
[4:15] exclusive humanism yes um sort of
[4:18] bounded humanism there's nothing beyond
[4:20] the
[4:22] Mind why is that wrong how is it wrong
[4:25] because it doesn't look wrong and then
[4:28] perhaps we'll talk about how do we get
[4:30] how did we get there well since the
[4:32] beginning of um science in the 17th
[4:36] century of modern science
[4:39] um there has been this attempt to
[4:41] separate Minds from nature I mean the
[4:45] whole of Sciences we know it is based on
[4:47] splitting mind from
[4:49] nature the well-known cartisian
[4:52] dualism um and the one of the key steps
[4:56] in that was um the discovery by Johannes
[4:59] kep
[5:00] who's best known for his astronomical
[5:02] work um of his theory of vision Kepler
[5:06] was the chap who worked out how Vision
[5:08] Works in the sense that light comes into
[5:10] the eye it goes through the lens and you
[5:13] get small inverted images on the Reser
[5:16] now no one knew that before Kepler and
[5:19] it's partly because he did it for he
[5:21] came to it because people had already
[5:23] been making lenses for spectacles in the
[5:25] Middle Ages some people already had
[5:27] spectacles so they they knew
[5:30] lenses and they had the camera obscurer
[5:34] which is a dark room with a hole in it a
[5:35] pin hole and you get an inverted image
[5:38] on the wall and Kepler put these
[5:41] together and worked out that that's
[5:42] what's happening inside the
[5:44] eye so when you see something there's
[5:47] these small inverted images on the
[5:49] retina inside the inside the head and
[5:54] this was part of a debate about Vision
[5:56] that had been going on since ancient
[5:58] Greece and the
[6:01] the reason for this is it's all to do
[6:03] with where the mind is that's why I'm
[6:05] mentioning it um in ancient Greece most
[6:08] people thought that when you see
[6:10] something the images you see are where
[6:12] they seem to be like my image of you is
[6:16] located where you're sitting that's the
[6:18] common sense View and all over the world
[6:21] that's what most people believe and it's
[6:24] what children believe and so what uid
[6:28] the great geometer worked out in detail
[6:31] and he said that when light comes into
[6:33] the eye there's a projection of images
[6:36] that goes in the opposite direction so
[6:38] what happens is light's coming into my
[6:40] eye changes are happening in my brain um
[6:43] and that I'm projecting out my image of
[6:46] you to where you are so it coincides
[6:49] with where you are it's outside me um it
[6:53] links me to the world every Act of
[6:55] perception links me to the world around
[6:56] me and you're an image in my mind but
[7:00] you not an image in my brain because my
[7:03] image R views where it seems to be and
[7:05] uid um then said well you can actually
[7:08] see this when you look at something in a
[7:10] mirror the mirror he didn't use this
[7:13] phrase but the mirror is basically a
[7:15] beam splitter the light is reflected by
[7:17] the mirror comes into your eyes but you
[7:20] project out the image of what you're
[7:21] seeing and because it's virtual rather
[7:24] than physical it goes straight through
[7:26] the mirror so the images you see are be
[7:29] located behind the mirror so um you're
[7:33] projecting out the world you see now the
[7:36] reason I think this is very important is
[7:38] it because before the 17th century and
[7:41] before capitalist Discovery everyone
[7:44] more or less took it for granted that
[7:47] we're connected with the world we're not
[7:49] just inside our heads even the simplest
[7:51] Act of vision connects us with the world
[7:53] around us we're interl our minds stretch
[7:56] out into the world and if I look at a
[7:58] star my mind stretches out over
[8:00] literally astronomical distances to
[8:02] connecting with that star and projecting
[8:05] out the image of the
[8:06] star so what Kepler then said is that
[8:09] the if the inverted imager has happen
[8:12] inside the head and it's just light
[8:14] coming in there's nothing going out and
[8:17] and then people said well actually we
[8:19] don't actually experience two inverted
[8:21] small inverted images of the world we
[8:24] just see one image of the world that
[8:26] seems to be out there how do you explain
[8:28] that and kept said oh I can't explain
[8:31] that it's not my business I'm I'm doing
[8:33] Optics you know it must be somewhere
[8:34] inside the brain I leave it to someone
[8:36] else to explain that and that's where
[8:39] the situation has remained ever since
[8:41] and and uh the thing is that the Galileo
[8:46] Then followed on with the idea that the
[8:49] the world out there is made up of
[8:50] physical matter with weight Mass
[8:52] momentum Etc but qualities our actual
[8:56] experience is located inside the head
[8:58] they're secondary qualities smells
[9:00] colors they're not out there in the
[9:02] world they're inside the head so this
[9:05] then gave the idea that the head that
[9:07] all our experience is located inside the
[9:10] head um now in 17th century science
[9:15] there was also a spiritual Dimension and
[9:17] decart's famous split said well actually
[9:21] um everything in the material world is
[9:23] made up of unconscious matter but
[9:26] there's also the realm that contains God
[9:28] and angels and human the human
[9:31] consciousness higher aspects of
[9:32] Consciousness especially those that can
[9:35] understand maths which is what science
[9:37] is supposed to be about so and these
[9:40] come in the realm of Consciousness or
[9:41] Spirit which is not in space and time
[9:44] it's supernatural Beyond
[9:46] nature um then of course what happened
[9:49] is that in the 17th and 18th century
[9:51] that worked quite well because what it
[9:53] did was got religion out of nature um
[9:57] and God was removed from nature into a
[10:00] separate realm uh nature was left to the
[10:03] scientists um and so science could get
[10:06] on with studying nature and religion
[10:08] could get on with talking about God and
[10:10] angels and morality without too much
[10:14] interference but in the 19 century there
[10:16] were a lot of people who said well two
[10:18] things is too many uh we don't want two
[10:22] kinds of reality we just got one one and
[10:25] so one school of thought which included
[10:28] Hegel and a number of German philosop
[10:30] said the any reality is consciousness
[10:33] and matter is kind of dumbed down mind
[10:36] the others said the any reality is
[10:38] matter and the so-called realm of
[10:40] spiritual consciousness and Supernatural
[10:42] realm simply doesn't exist you can't
[10:44] measure it you can't see it it just
[10:46] doesn't exist so you've just got matter
[10:49] materialism and that of course is an
[10:51] atheist point of view you got rid of God
[10:53] and the angels at the stroke of a pen
[10:56] and then human Minds then become nothing
[10:59] but the physical activity of the brain
[11:02] so that's why in the modern world people
[11:04] have been brought up with that view they
[11:05] think their Consciousness is all inside
[11:07] their head and that when when you die
[11:10] the brain decays and that's the end of
[11:11] it um so but I think when you if you
[11:15] actually look at the roots of that it
[11:17] was partly in the 17th century where
[11:21] Kepler was cleverly working out the
[11:24] nature of light and that's role in
[11:26] Vision nothing wrong with that but then
[11:28] without it actually explain in vision
[11:31] and it left all these subjective things
[11:33] completely unexplained and as you know
[11:36] the biggest problem for materialist
[11:38] philosophers is What's called the hard
[11:40] problem is the very existence of
[11:43] Consciousness because if the whole
[11:45] universe consists only of matter or
[11:47] physical reality and if all of that is
[11:49] completely unconscious which is what
[11:51] materialists believe then how come we're
[11:54] conscious that's a serious problem and
[11:57] so philosophers of mind materialist
[12:00] philosophers in mind fall into several
[12:03] schools of thought one school of thought
[12:05] the so-called eliminative materialist
[12:07] say that we're not conscious
[12:09] Consciousness doesn't actually exist
[12:11] it's just folk psychology and when we
[12:13] know enough about uh neuros science will
[12:16] just be able to explain everything in
[12:17] terms of nerve impulses and brain
[12:20] activity they don't convince many people
[12:23] um so um another school of thought um
[12:28] says well consciousness uh is just a
[12:31] kind of epip phenomenon of what's
[12:33] happening in the physical activity of
[12:34] the brain and it's a kind of Illusion
[12:37] and so conscious doesn't do anything
[12:40] it's just an illusion produced by the
[12:42] physical activity of the brain the
[12:44] trouble is that their critics then point
[12:46] out that illusion is itself a mode of
[12:48] Consciousness
[12:53] so they so they're going around in
[12:56] circles and that's why it's called the
[12:58] hard problem because the the very
[13:01] existence of human consciousness doesn't
[13:03] fit into materialist world view it's it
[13:06] leads to this terrible problem so let
[13:08] let's just sort of take it step by step
[13:11] so you know um you know the idea that
[13:14] Consciousness is an epiphenomena of the
[13:16] brain it might be worth sort of
[13:17] explaining that it it seems to me that
[13:19] the assumption is that what we're
[13:22] experiencing now really can is basically
[13:24] just nerve impulses and so on um
[13:30] is that you know what let's because the
[13:33] the the the materialist view is that
[13:35] it's all really happening in my head and
[13:36] I I this this is all just everything's
[13:38] in inside my skull you're in my skull
[13:41] everybody else is in my skull
[13:43] Etc that's right well that's the
[13:45] standard materialist View and the
[13:47] epiphenomenon is just trying to say that
[13:50] all these material changes are happening
[13:52] in the brain that's what really matters
[13:53] that's what makes the difference there's
[13:55] no such thing as free will because it's
[13:57] just what your brain makes you do and
[14:00] but it produces this ill illusion it
[14:02] doesn't actually do anything this happy
[14:04] phenomenon of Consciousness which is
[14:07] what we experience and it has no
[14:09] function uh it doesn't give us freedom
[14:11] as we might imagine it doesn't have any
[14:14] particular role and then some
[14:16] materialist philosophers say well wait a
[14:18] moment it must have evolved why would an
[14:20] epiphenomenon evolve that doesn't
[14:22] actually do anything how would that fit
[14:24] in with darwinian Evolution and the
[14:26] survival of the fittest right so then
[14:28] some of them think well maybe
[14:29] Consciousness does have a role it makes
[14:31] gives us a reason for getting out of bed
[14:33] in the morning and makes life a bit more
[14:35] enjoyable but the the thing is that then
[14:37] you see they're now attributing some
[14:39] agency to Consciousness so the other
[14:42] materialists say oh you can't say that
[14:44] that's you know that's that's falling
[14:45] into a trap of thinking Consciousness
[14:47] actually does something right I see now
[14:50] you see I think there is a way out of
[14:52] this scientifically um and um do you
[14:55] want me to say
[14:57] not um well you see I've spent a lot of
[15:00] time um in the last 20 30 years thinking
[15:03] about the nature of vision because I
[15:05] think if we start from our own
[15:07] experience our most immediate experience
[15:10] and it's not just Human Experience it's
[15:12] any animal with image forming eyes
[15:14] including insects octopuses you know
[15:17] cats dogs birds I mean fish lots of
[15:21] animals have image forming eyes and I
[15:25] think Vision Works similarly in all
[15:28] animals with image forming eyes and I
[15:30] think it involves like coming in images
[15:32] on the retina changes in the optic nerve
[15:35] and in the brain all that's exactly as
[15:38] described by Neuroscience but then you
[15:40] see if the image is projected out if
[15:42] something's projected out then the
[15:45] question comes if this is a scientific
[15:47] hypothesis could you detect it yes now
[15:50] that's why I've got interested in scopos
[15:52] thesia which is the scientific name for
[15:54] the sense of being stared at if you're
[15:57] sitting with your back to me and you
[15:59] don't know I'm there and I stare at your
[16:01] back could you feel my stare now as soon
[16:05] as you ask that question and if you do
[16:07] surveys it turns out that 95% of the
[16:10] population have had this experience
[16:12] including
[16:14] materialists how embarrassing for
[16:17] them and um and also about 95% of the
[16:22] population have had the experience of
[16:24] looking at other people and finding they
[16:25] turn around there's a slight sex
[16:28] difference more women than men have
[16:29] experienced being looked at more men
[16:32] than women have experienced looking at
[16:33] others who turn around we can leave
[16:36] people to work out
[16:38] that um nevertheless it's incredibly
[16:41] common even among children and surveys
[16:43] have shown that this is even among seven
[16:46] eight n year olds this is an extremely
[16:48] well-known
[16:49] phenomenon and children take it for
[16:51] granted that something goes out of the
[16:53] eyes when you look at something which is
[16:54] why children like Royal dar's story
[16:57] Matilda who's got eye beams can do
[16:59] things and Superman comics Superman has
[17:02] beams coming out of his eyes so this all
[17:05] makes total sense to Children you see
[17:07] because that's they're reacting to what
[17:09] they experience and what they know but
[17:12] the developmental psychologist Shan P
[17:15] showed that uh studying the intellectual
[17:18] development of European children by the
[17:21] age of 10 or 11 children learn what he
[17:24] called the correct view which is that
[17:26] thoughts and images are invisible things
[17:28] located in
[17:29] heads so most of us have assimilated
[17:32] that view by the time we were about 11
[17:35] and we know that's the official View and
[17:37] you're not allowed to think something
[17:38] comes out of your eye and influences
[17:40] other people yet everyone experiences it
[17:43] some people on a daily basis so how do
[17:46] scientists deal with this the answer is
[17:49] by total denial it's a complete denial
[17:53] that this phenomenon exists um that it's
[17:56] they say they say well of course people
[17:58] believe this phenomenon exists because
[18:01] that's just a Superstition or it's just
[18:03] coincidence you look around you look at
[18:04] people all the time if one of them turns
[18:06] around you imagine you made them turn
[18:08] around you just forget the millions of
[18:10] times you're wrong and so between 1885
[18:14] and 1985 I studied the scientific
[18:17] literature there were four papers in the
[18:19] entire world published on this subject
[18:21] two of them the first two were by
[18:23] Skeptics who said this was a false
[18:26] belief and just showed how uneducated
[18:28] and stupid people were um and the other
[18:32] two had actually did a few empirical
[18:33] tests could people really tell in a
[18:36] randomized trials when they looked at
[18:38] from p and they found they could and
[18:40] when they published these papers in
[18:42] obscure psychic research journals uh the
[18:45] overall effect immediately afterwards
[18:47] and subsequent was absolutely zero total
[18:51] silence um I think I'm the only person
[18:54] in the world who's working on this
[18:55] experimentally at the moment um there's
[18:58] a huge popul interest in it I now have
[19:01] an app um it's called the isense app ey
[19:06] sense get
[19:07] it um um it's you can on my website
[19:11] sheld r.org there's a thing take part
[19:14] and you get the link to it this is where
[19:16] you can do it with mobile phones working
[19:18] with a partner one sits with the back to
[19:20] the other uh with a blindfold on and you
[19:23] either look or don't look and the person
[19:25] have to guess if they're being it's a
[19:27] randomized test on the whole in these
[19:30] experiments they come out significant
[19:32] positive there's clear evidence it
[19:34] really happens um and my latest paper on
[19:39] this I'm I'm I'm sorry to go on so much
[19:41] about it but it's quite topical because
[19:43] my latest paper on this only came out
[19:45] about a week ago and in fact I have a
[19:47] two-page spread in today's Daily Mail I
[19:50] don't I dare say hardly anyone in this
[19:52] room probably no one has seen
[19:57] it nevertheless millions of people will
[20:00] do because it's on their website um and
[20:04] based on a paper I've done a study over
[20:06] the last 20 or 30 years collecting
[20:09] stories from people about waking up
[20:12] children and animals by staring at them
[20:15] large number of people have had the
[20:17] experience of staring at a sleeping dog
[20:19] or cat and it wakes up and looks
[20:21] straight at them a lot of people find
[20:23] this happens with children in fact a lot
[20:25] of parents including me when I had young
[20:27] children avoid looking at their sleeping
[20:30] babies CU they don't want to wake them
[20:32] up there's a lot of time getting to
[20:33] sleep the last thing you want is for
[20:36] them to wake up just cuz you stare at
[20:37] them um some mothers have found they can
[20:41] wake up their children in the morning U
[20:43] by what one one mother described to me
[20:45] as the Humane method which is just to
[20:47] stare at them as opposed to the more
[20:50] radical method of a cold
[20:52] sponge and so anyway there's a whole two
[20:56] page spread in the daily mail today
[20:57] which I encourage people to do
[20:59] experiments with their own dogs and cats
[21:02] um filming them and looking at them at
[21:05] random times and I'm hoping that a
[21:07] assistant science project will be
[21:09] starting this very evening all over the
[21:11] land and indeed all around the world
[21:13] with people actually doing tests on this
[21:16] um so anyway the the point is that the
[21:18] idea that the mind is all inside the
[21:20] head which we're told is refuted by our
[21:23] most immediate experience of seeing
[21:26] images all around us and then
[21:29] the the scientist you meet a skeptical
[21:32] scientist friend and they say oh well
[21:33] you know it's just coincidence and you
[21:35] know these statistical experiments of
[21:37] flawed and all that kind of thing um
[21:39] they do anything to deny this um the
[21:43] fact is it's happening all the time and
[21:46] I think that the it makes it's a real
[21:48] effort to be a materialist you have to
[21:50] deny so much of your own experience
[21:53] including your most immediate experience
[21:55] of the world you experience being out
[21:57] there your mind being linked to the
[21:59] world through every Act of perception I
[22:02] mean I I was really strucked by you
[22:03] talking about experiment sounds too WR
[22:06] the wrong word but with with your son
[22:07] Merlin when when he was four I think
[22:10] where might be just fun just to hear
[22:13] about that because I was very struck by
[22:15] that well I mean um this is I've been
[22:17] interested in this for a long time
[22:19] precisely because of this the very
[22:21] nature of vision tells us about the most
[22:24] immediate experience of our mind so when
[22:27] I first got exper interested in doing
[22:29] experiments so my own children were the
[22:31] subjects of First Resort and sound
[22:34] slightly worrying
[22:37] but and when I did it with my son Maran
[22:39] when he was
[22:40] four I did he got it right every single
[22:43] time I I was amazed no one ever got it
[22:45] right every time so you you sort of sat
[22:47] him in front I set him down he was
[22:49] blindfolded and I I made there was a
[22:52] click sound to indicate a trial had
[22:54] begun and it was a randomized sequence
[22:56] of Trials and he heard the CLI and then
[22:59] within 5 seconds or so he had to say
[23:01] looking or not looking depending on
[23:03] whether he thought I was looking at him
[23:05] and he was certainly wasn't cheating he
[23:07] was he didn't know he couldn't have
[23:09] cheated he was sitting still he got a
[23:11] blindfold on Etc um and he just got it
[23:15] right every time and then after a few I
[23:18] was absolutely Amazed by this and after
[23:20] a few times said Daddy can we do it with
[23:22] I look at you so he looked at me and I
[23:24] got it wrong most so not all the time
[23:26] but I got it average score in these
[23:30] tests is about 55% where 50% is the
[23:33] chance level and I was sort of about 55%
[23:36] he was 100% And when he got the idea
[23:39] that you could actually be wrong and
[23:40] started realizing that I got it wrong
[23:42] and you he doubted his own abilities his
[23:45] score went way down it still was 60 or
[23:48] 70% but he never got 100% again after I
[23:52] introduced doubt into his mind um that's
[23:56] one of the problems with this kind of
[23:57] research that by making people forcing
[24:00] them to guess consciously things that
[24:02] would normally happen unconsciously you
[24:04] introduce doubt into their minds and and
[24:07] the intellectual mind gets in the way
[24:09] it's all about feelings not about
[24:11] thoughts um but if it is 55% is that
[24:15] very much is that statistically very
[24:16] important because it doesn't seem much
[24:18] higher than not a very big effect no if
[24:21] you take if we did it here in this room
[24:23] now if we split into Pairs and people
[24:25] did it I mean I've done this many times
[24:27] in workshops and things PR chances are
[24:31] it would be about 55% with the number of
[24:33] people here that would be statistically
[24:36] significant and when in fact there's now
[24:39] been at least 30,000 Trials of this kind
[24:42] no it's more than that it must be
[24:45] 100,000 trials because it went on for 25
[24:48] years in the Amsterdam Science Museum
[24:50] this experiment in an automated version
[24:52] where the computer told them whether to
[24:54] look or not um 5% on on 100 th000 trials
[24:59] is astronomically significant you know
[25:02] trials when people say that statins
[25:04] reduce heart attacks and so on if you
[25:06] look at the figures it's about 5% you
[25:09] know it's a small effect but with lar
[25:12] hundreds of thousands of people in big
[25:14] trials it's very significant and so the
[25:17] effects of most prescription drugs like
[25:20] statins and things are similar in
[25:23] magnitude to to to this so in science
[25:27] this is but Norm but you then you can
[25:29] find people who are better at it and the
[25:32] purpose of my present app I sense is to
[25:36] provide an app where people can train
[25:38] themselves to get better at it and in
[25:41] martial arts U this is one area where
[25:43] people do train themselves to get better
[25:45] in some of the martial arts they
[25:47] actually have practices where a
[25:48] blindfolded person is there a semicircle
[25:51] of people behind them and the teacher
[25:53] points to one of the people behind us
[25:56] tells them to focus their attention as
[25:58] if they're going to attack and the
[26:00] person has to detect where the stair is
[26:02] coming from and it's a directional sense
[26:05] I mean the in real life people don't
[26:08] just feel vaguely uneasy and look around
[26:10] like this they they turn and look
[26:12] straight at the animal or the person
[26:14] looking at them it works with animals
[26:16] too and I think it probably evolved in
[26:18] the context of Predator prey
[26:20] relationships a prey animal that could
[26:22] tell when a hidden Predator was watching
[26:24] it would survive better than one that
[26:26] couldn't yeah um and animals when asleep
[26:29] are they're most vulnerable which is why
[26:31] I think there's an evolutionary reason
[26:33] for working with sleeping animals I yeah
[26:36] but what does that going back to sort of
[26:38] my experience of that walk and that
[26:40] feeling of I could die and nothing would
[26:44] care and that it my how does your how
[26:46] does that start to change that
[26:49] view well I'm not sure it casts a lot of
[26:52] light on life after death or what
[26:55] happens when you die but it I think it
[26:56] changes the view that you're
[26:58] disconnected from the environment
[27:00] because it means that when you look at
[27:03] birds or animals when you're walking
[27:04] around in the natural world they they
[27:07] can feel often feel feel this I mean
[27:09] they turn and look back at you hunters
[27:11] and Wildlife photographers are very
[27:13] aware of this um when it comes to how
[27:17] you think about death
[27:19] then I think it's it's been a natural
[27:22] thought for humans ever since we know
[27:24] the earliest records from caves and
[27:27] burials and so on that people thought
[27:29] that when people died it didn't just go
[27:32] extinct that the Consciousness survived
[27:35] death in some form and that's why the
[27:37] Egyptians built pyramids and people in
[27:40] caves had you know ceremonies in caves
[27:42] and why people had burials and why the
[27:45] people buried them with lots of gold and
[27:47] jewels and things for the afterlife and
[27:50] so on there were varying conceptions of
[27:52] the afterlife but it seems natural to
[27:54] most people to feel that when you die
[27:57] there's a continuity of consciousness of
[27:59] some kind and you find it in most
[28:03] religions well in perhaps all religions
[28:06] because in in Eastern religions The
[28:09] Reincarnation or rebirth is the normal
[28:11] way with like in the Tibetan Book of the
[28:15] Dead there's BAU there's an intermediate
[28:17] realm um within you know Islam
[28:21] Christianity there's belief in various
[28:24] different theories of the afterlife the
[28:26] Jews thought in terms of shol are kind
[28:28] of of Shadow Underworld the Greeks had
[28:30] Hades you know tribal and shamanic
[28:33] societies are convinced that the
[28:35] ancestors and the spirits of the Dead
[28:39] are a kind of present reality that
[28:41] actually impact on their lives and
[28:42] relate to them in the Christian
[28:45] tradition The Day of the Dead which is
[28:47] really big in Mexico November the 2nd is
[28:50] the Feast of All Souls and requ masses
[28:54] happened all over England and every
[28:55] other part of the world uh for the souls
[28:58] of the Dead I was going pray for the
[29:00] souls of the Dead on All Souls day
[29:02] myself um so this is completely taken
[29:06] for granted in all cultures until
[29:08] materialism comes along and says it's
[29:10] nothing but the activity of the brain um
[29:14] in ancient Judaism there were those who
[29:16] thought death was the end so it's not
[29:17] totally true to say it's never been
[29:19] widely entered there were but even at
[29:22] the time of Jesus you the one group of
[29:26] the Pharisees believed in life after
[29:28] death sadu sees didn't so there were
[29:30] disputes which were reported in the New
[29:32] Testament of Jesus discussing it with
[29:34] them and in the Buddhist time you know
[29:36] some people some people were near lless
[29:38] in that sense you know people did people
[29:40] did think in the Buddhist time that the
[29:42] death that was the end yes so there's
[29:44] always been people have thought that but
[29:46] the vast majority of people in most
[29:48] cultures have not thought that way but
[29:51] with the materialist philosophy getting
[29:53] getting the impr premature of Science
[29:55] and being treated as if it must be the
[29:57] truth um in in our society people are
[30:00] just brought up with this view so the
[30:02] default position for most people would
[30:04] be when you die it just goes blank yeah
[30:07] um and that does seem very it's it's not
[30:10] that one it's not one that remembers
[30:13] learning that it does seem to be
[30:17] our Instinct that you know you know and
[30:21] of course there's a question if you
[30:22] damage the brain and it doesn't work and
[30:24] you know um it can look like it does it
[30:27] does meet the evidence you know that
[30:29] after your parent dies you can never
[30:30] speak to them again you know
[30:33] um it it it's it's it's it's very deep
[30:36] isn't it this belief but are you saying
[30:39] that it's mainly a view that we have
[30:42] taken on through yes really yeah I don't
[30:45] think it's a natural instinct to think
[30:46] that way right and I don't think that
[30:48] people I lived for seven years in India
[30:51] for example and among my Muslim friends
[30:54] you know I don't didn't meet any who
[30:56] doubted that there was life after death
[30:58] among my Christian friends I didn't meet
[31:00] any among my Hindu friends you know
[31:04] almost all of them took reincarnation
[31:06] completely for granted um and the
[31:09] alternative to reincarnation was not
[31:11] Extinction it was Enlightenment or mock
[31:14] or Liberation and as you know in the
[31:17] Oriental it's in Buddhism too but the
[31:20] the the the is here in England when I
[31:23] meet people who are in keen on incar
[31:26] reincarnation they get very enthusiast I
[31:28] Astic and positive about it well in
[31:30] India it's not although they all believe
[31:32] in it Hindus it's not regarded as a good
[31:34] thing it's regarded as a bad thing and
[31:36] the whole point of spiritual practice is
[31:38] to liberate yourself from being
[31:40] reincarnated and having to go through
[31:42] the whole thing all over again oh know
[31:44] not GCS
[31:49] again and and suffering and old age and
[31:51] Death and All country you so the the the
[31:55] the in India and I think derivatively
[31:58] from that in Buddhism that the the idea
[32:01] of a kind of vertical takeoff
[32:03] spiritually which frees you from this
[32:06] endless cycling you you can escape from
[32:09] it and and for
[32:10] Tibetan banic llamas you can voluntarily
[32:14] come back to help others but it's
[32:17] basically a Liberation from but it's not
[32:20] with the extinction of Consciousness
[32:21] like going blank like a materialist um
[32:24] it's it's entering a an enlarged realm
[32:27] of consciousness it's interesting
[32:29] because it seems to me that we now think
[32:31] that we're clever than that basically
[32:33] that you know all of that was all very
[32:35] nice and very quaint and it's really to
[32:37] do with wish fulfillment because we
[32:39] human beings are deeply egoistic and we
[32:43] can't really imagine dying can we we
[32:45] somehow think we're going to carry on at
[32:46] least a few centuries um you know we and
[32:49] therefore these things are just
[32:51] projections of you know our desire to
[32:53] live on um that we're you know we put
[32:56] all that behind us yes um we're we're
[32:58] cleverer than that now you know that is
[33:01] the main payoff from materialism I mean
[33:03] it's a depressing philosophy materialism
[33:05] because says we live in a pointless
[33:07] Universe there's no matter of
[33:09] Consciousness out there there's no
[33:11] purpose in evolution we're here as a
[33:13] result of blind chance Etc um it's a
[33:16] deeply depressing worldview which is why
[33:19] I think the endemic disease of modern
[33:21] materialist societies is
[33:23] depression so so it's a deeply
[33:25] depressing view but the only positive
[33:27] side of it upside is that it makes
[33:29] people feel they're smarter than
[33:30] everyone
[33:33] else and I suppose there's a certain
[33:35] pleasure in that feeling you've seen
[33:37] through what all these other deluded
[33:39] people I mean when I was converted to
[33:41] atheism as part of my scientific
[33:43] education at school you know the the
[33:46] there's a terrible sort of arrogance
[33:49] goes with it you know you've seen
[33:50] through all these people all these
[33:52] centuries have been building churches
[33:54] praying you know doing things for the
[33:57] Dead you know building pyramids and T
[34:00] and you just seen through it all because
[34:02] of science I didn't know much science
[34:04] when I thought
[34:05] that had and it wasn't as if SS actually
[34:08] looked into it simply ignored it or
[34:10] dismissed it um so um yes I think that a
[34:14] lot of people feel they've risen above
[34:16] all that and they're modern liberated
[34:19] smart
[34:20] people until they take psychedelics
[34:24] until um and I I think what's
[34:27] interesting about
[34:29] the enormous impact of psychedelics and
[34:32] our culture which I think is more now
[34:34] than it has been for a long time old
[34:36] enough to have lived through the first
[34:38] wave in the
[34:39] 1960s um and '70s but um this Resurgence
[34:44] of interest in psychedelics I think what
[34:47] it did for me I first took LSD in around
[34:49] 1970 71 um forgotten exactly when it was
[34:54] just after I traveled through India and
[34:56] Sri Lanka and uh already which had given
[34:59] me a much bigger view of the world than
[35:01] I my Cambridge scientific education had
[35:03] prepared me for um but for me it really
[35:08] did give the sense that Consciousness
[35:10] has a realm and power and vividness and
[35:13] range of beyond anything that I'd
[35:16] learned about in my physiology lectures
[35:18] on the nature of the nerve impulse and
[35:20] you know dopamine neurotransmitters and
[35:23] stuff um and I think that what
[35:28] psychedelics have done for a lot of
[35:29] people has shown that there's a vast
[35:31] Realm of the mind which is not the same
[35:34] as physical reality it's not the same as
[35:36] scientific understanding it may be akin
[35:39] to the dream world in a sense because we
[35:41] all dream and we all enter Realms
[35:43] different from our ordinary
[35:45] Consciousness and in our dreams we have
[35:47] a body that's different from the body we
[35:50] have during Waking Life because in our
[35:52] dreams we can walk around talk to people
[35:55] even fly um and I think the traditional
[35:58] views of life after death which I think
[36:01] I personally find quite plausible it's
[36:03] like dreaming except you can't wake up
[36:06] um because you're dead um and when my
[36:09] three-year-old son my son Cosmo was
[36:11] three he said Daddy what happens when we
[36:13] die and I really had to think of some
[36:15] simple straightforward answer because no
[36:17] one else ask that kind of question um um
[36:21] um so I said it's like dreaming but we
[36:23] can't wake up anymore and actually it
[36:25] was the first time i' formulated it like
[36:27] that but I really do think that and I
[36:29] think most people think that tra in
[36:32] traditional societies and if you look at
[36:35] maps of the afterlife like in
[36:37] Dante's you know Inferno and purgatory
[36:41] and Paradiso in Dante's Divine Comedy
[36:44] it's like a kind of map of a dream world
[36:47] of a dream world like afterlife and I
[36:50] think for most people that would have
[36:52] been the most normal way of thinking um
[36:56] Purgatory in the Christian a Catholic
[36:59] Vision as in the Mexican Day of the Dead
[37:01] and so it's like a continuation of this
[37:03] life in a kind of dreamlike state where
[37:05] there's still a kind of ongoing
[37:08] psychological development I mean part of
[37:11] that though you know if if part of
[37:12] materialism is you get to feel cleverer
[37:14] than other people which I think must be
[37:16] part of why it's appealing but also
[37:19] presumably historically it was to do
[37:21] with the fact that what before
[37:23] materialism the a big motivator for
[37:26] people was what happened after they died
[37:28] yes you know that you know huge
[37:30] populations have been controlled by the
[37:33] fear of what happens after death that
[37:35] you will be punished in hell and so on
[37:37] yes so a lot of motivation um in you
[37:41] know religious motivation was if you do
[37:43] that things will get much worse after
[37:46] you die yes so materialism also at a at
[37:49] a stroke got rid of all the PO the
[37:51] endless torments of hell if you to me is
[37:53] that part of or the endless bless of
[37:56] paradise yeah um
[37:58] yes I think that's part of it and I
[38:00] think that I think that part of this was
[38:02] was a kind of Liberation I think you see
[38:05] I think what I've actually been thinking
[38:07] about this in the last two three weeks
[38:09] more than before because my book the
[38:11] science solusion is about to come out in
[38:14] China and and it's also just come out in
[38:17] Iran and it it it was blocked for some
[38:20] time in Iran because it everything that
[38:23] gets published there has to go through
[38:24] the ministry of guidance and the
[38:26] ministry of guidance didn't think my
[38:28] book was a very good idea but apparently
[38:30] theyve changed their mind and so have
[38:32] the Chinese censors um and so I've been
[38:35] asked to write a preface for the Chinese
[38:38] and and for the
[38:40] Iran and these are completely different
[38:43] cultures you see one of the things I
[38:45] think that's come clear in my mind just
[38:47] very recently is that in the 17th
[38:49] century Europe was Riven with religious
[38:52] wars the 30 Years War on the continent
[38:55] Catholics Fe Protestants you know a
[38:58] third of the population of Europe was
[38:59] killed and in England the Civil War in
[39:02] the 17th century had a very strong
[39:04] religious Dimension you the Puritans and
[39:06] so on um and that was when science was
[39:10] growing up and the the proponents of
[39:14] science often describe this as a third
[39:17] way that whereas religion was sort of
[39:20] fighting each other and quarreling over
[39:22] how you interpret the scriptures and who
[39:24] should be in charge of the church and
[39:26] whether priests could marry or not not
[39:28] and whether should be monasteries and
[39:30] whether pilgrimages should be suppressed
[39:32] or not and all that kind of thing um the
[39:36] third way they said well look we're just
[39:38] looking at nature it's a machine it's
[39:41] governed by mathematical laws
[39:42] mathematical laws ultimately come from
[39:44] the mind of God who's a great
[39:46] mathematician um and it it was
[39:49] religiously neutral and so so the
[39:53] science then became attractive to people
[39:55] because it it said it's mind's nothing
[39:58] but the brain except there is this
[40:00] spiritual Dimension that religion deals
[40:02] with but as far as nature is concerned
[40:04] it's all just matter and so I think that
[40:07] this and then Enlightenment rationalists
[40:10] building on science which was making
[40:13] great achievements and understanding
[40:15] nature and the beginning of the
[40:16] Industrial Revolution it was useful it
[40:19] was to connect it to economic progress
[40:21] yeah then it gained in Prestige and by
[40:24] having this neutral ground that meant
[40:27] people could feel they were free of of
[40:29] the problems of religion I I think
[40:32] that's one of the historic reasons why
[40:34] in Europe um science got going in the
[40:38] way it did and science and technology
[40:40] has been incredibly successful hasn't it
[40:42] it's incredibly successful all over the
[40:44] world uh but the point is that the the
[40:47] this view of nature that sees it as
[40:49] totally
[40:50] inanimate inanimate unconscious dead
[40:54] mechanical the mechanistic materialist
[40:58] um is not what most people think of
[41:00] nature but in all almost all cultures
[41:02] including Medieval Europe people thought
[41:05] the Earth was alive the stars and
[41:06] planets are alive as intelligence and
[41:09] spirit throughout the whole of nature
[41:11] animals and plants are truly alive word
[41:13] animal comes from the word animal
[41:15] meaning Soul um so um it's an animistic
[41:20] view of Nature and our ancestors were
[41:21] animists Christian Europe was the great
[41:25] Cathedrals the gothic Cathedrals come
[41:27] out of a kind of animistic worldview
[41:29] full of green men and vegetation and
[41:31] spirits and gargoyles and things mean
[41:34] you also say that you know materialist
[41:36] you know at the weekend of Romantics
[41:38] aren't they you know yes they don't
[41:40] choose to have a you know a big you
[41:43] multi story in the middle of London they
[41:45] have a no no no they don't their their
[41:47] dream of a of a weekend getaway is not
[41:50] staying in some kind brutalist office
[41:52] Block it's it's sort of a country
[41:54] cottage and wandering in the woods and
[41:57] perhaps doing bit of fishing or you know
[42:00] or reading Wordsworth you know that kind
[42:02] of thing so actually what happened in
[42:05] our culture you see was the this this
[42:08] rejection of Christianity in favor of a
[42:12] materialist worldview where people could
[42:14] feel they were liberated from the
[42:15] problems of religion they were also
[42:17] liberated from the benefits of religion
[42:21] um there's a great void people found
[42:24] themselves living in a meaningless
[42:25] Universe where there was nothing but
[42:27] their
[42:28] so the Romantic reaction to that the end
[42:30] of the 18th century was to say well
[42:32] actually it's not just all about reason
[42:34] and Science and mathematical equations
[42:36] it's about feelings emotions Love You
[42:40] Know Drama the drama of scenery the
[42:43] beauty of nature The Wonder of a Sunset
[42:46] and and the Romantic Poets were writing
[42:49] all about feelings emotions Etc and what
[42:52] that did was created this cultural split
[42:55] which you mentioned where from 9:00 to 5
[42:58] most people are Monday to Fridays most
[43:00] people are materialists and the
[43:03] materialist worldview dominates but then
[43:06] on Friday evening the cities of the
[43:08] western world are clogged with traffic
[43:10] as millions of people try to get back to
[43:12] Nature in a car and and you know and
[43:16] what this became clear to me once when I
[43:18] had a friend who was a rapacious
[43:21] businessman he was you know he was a
[43:23] property developer ruthless businessman
[43:26] I didn't mind what he did to make money
[43:29] but then he got enough he bought this
[43:31] country estate in suffk an Elizabethan
[43:34] mansion house you know beautiful estate
[43:38] it everything was organic he protected
[43:40] the ancient oak trees he quarreled with
[43:42] greedy farmers and everybody who were
[43:44] rooting out their Hedges because they
[43:45] were trying to make a profit that he
[43:47] became the most Ardent conservationist
[43:50] at weekends totally believed in in
[43:52] preserving all this and and so on um it
[43:56] was like a split person B it's a kind of
[43:59] bipolar attitude that people have and it
[44:02] it runs through our whole
[44:04] culture okay so I wanted to um we talked
[44:07] quite a lot Rupert there about the
[44:09] limits of materialism you know um one of
[44:12] the things we were chatting about in the
[44:13] te break is how materialism is a view
[44:16] that we don't realize we've got it's not
[44:18] that we we're walking around as
[44:19] materialists we just walking around in a
[44:21] world that we think is factual like you
[44:24] know um like Christians used to walk
[44:27] around in a world that they just assumed
[44:28] was Christian you know they didn't have
[44:30] a religion they just lived their life
[44:32] and that's what we now call it just as
[44:35] we have a religion which is you know
[44:38] materialism which we assume to be given
[44:41] so we we've said a bit about the limits
[44:43] of that I thought it'd be good to try
[44:46] and start to think about because you've
[44:48] been thinking a lot
[44:49] about you know given those limits what
[44:52] else might be true you've already said
[44:55] that um for instance it seems that we
[44:58] see people that they you know when I
[45:00] look at the sky the sky isn't inside my
[45:02] skull it's actually out there and the
[45:06] implications that has because it
[45:07] suggests that Consciousness is not just
[45:09] locked in my brain but you've done lots
[45:11] of other experiments and thoughts about
[45:15] what might be the case given the fact
[45:17] that materialism is so problematic and I
[45:19] think that's becoming more gradually
[45:21] accepted that materialism is becoming
[45:24] more is
[45:25] problematic well in my book The Science
[45:28] delusion as you know what I do is spell
[45:31] out the 10 principal dogmas of
[45:33] materialism um which include nature is
[45:37] mechanical matter is unconscious the
[45:39] mind is inside the head um psychic
[45:43] phenomena are illusory the laws of
[45:45] nature are fixed um memories are stored
[45:48] as material traces in brains and so on I
[45:52] take these 10 dogmas and I turn them
[45:54] into questions and treat them not as a
[45:56] fact as if it's just something you have
[45:59] accept on Blind Faith which is what most
[46:01] people do they don't even realize
[46:03] they're accepting it on Blind Faith it's
[46:05] just they think it's true um um but turn
[46:09] them to questions is nature mechanical
[46:12] are memories stored in brains and so on
[46:15] and then treating them as testable
[46:17] scientific hypotheses the questions open
[46:19] up and then new kinds of research become
[46:22] possible new ways of looking at nature
[46:25] and perhaps I should start with the the
[46:28] laws of nature fix since this is one of
[46:30] my own starting points that the usual
[46:33] assumption is that the laws of nature
[46:36] are fixed at the moment of the Big Bang
[46:38] all the laws and all the constants of
[46:40] nature were completely fixed the way
[46:42] they are now like a kind of cosmic
[46:44] Napoleonic Code now this is the sort of
[46:48] standard assumption now it's a very
[46:51] bizarre assumption because in the 17th
[46:54] century people had a reason for it they
[46:55] thought that God fixed the laws of
[46:57] Nature and God was eternal so the laws
[46:59] were nature laws of nature were Eternal
[47:02] they were like Eternal Pythagorean or
[47:05] platonic ideas in the mind of God that
[47:07] made sense coherently
[47:10] philosophically in the 19th century the
[47:13] materialists who were gaining ground in
[47:15] the 19th century said well we don't need
[47:17] God because let's just say the whole
[47:19] universe is eternal with eternal matter
[47:22] Eternal energy and eternal laws and you
[47:24] don't need a God to start it all off a
[47:26] Creator so so the universe became
[47:28] Eternal so Eternal laws made sense in
[47:31] Eternal universe and most physicists
[47:34] thought the universe was eternal with
[47:36] eternal laws until
[47:38] 1966 um when the Big Bang Theory became
[47:42] the predominant cosmology which then
[47:44] said the universe began very small and
[47:47] very hot less than the size of a head of
[47:49] a pin um 14 billion years ago and it's
[47:53] been growing and cooling down and
[47:55] expanding ever since we have a radic
[47:57] evolutionary universe that's new it
[48:00] wasn't part of classical physics or
[48:03] anything so then the idea that all the
[48:05] laws of nature are fixed at the Big Bang
[48:09] has carried over as a kind of inertia
[48:11] from the previous world viw so most
[48:13] scientists say well at the moment of the
[48:15] Big Bang all the laws must have been
[48:16] fixed because the laws of nature are
[48:18] fixed so as my friend Terence McKenna
[48:22] used to say modern scien is based on the
[48:24] principle um give us one free miror
[48:27] and we'll explain the rest and the one
[48:30] free Miracle is the appearance of all
[48:32] the matter and energy in the universe
[48:33] and all the laws of nature and the
[48:35] Constance of nature from nothing in a
[48:37] single instant at the moment of the Big
[48:40] Bang so then at the big debate within
[48:43] modern cosmology is the laws of nature
[48:46] and the constants seem to be just right
[48:48] for life to evolve on Earth they could
[48:50] have been completely different so some
[48:52] people take a kind of oldfashioned
[48:54] deistic view well that means there must
[48:56] be a god outside nature who fine-tunes
[48:58] the laws and constants and before
[49:01] pressing the start button for the Big
[49:03] Bang or but the more popular view among
[49:06] cosmologists many of whom are atheists
[49:09] is well actually there's nothing special
[49:11] about this universe except the fact
[49:12] we're in it there's actually billions of
[49:15] universes trillions quadrillions of
[49:17] actual universes all different laws and
[49:20] constants we just happen to be the one
[49:22] that's right for the US it's the only
[49:24] one we can know about so I challenged
[49:27] one I'm quite friendly with Martin Reese
[49:30] who is astronomer Royal he was president
[49:32] of the Royal Society master of Trinity
[49:34] College Cambridge the very heart of the
[49:36] scientific establishment so I said well
[49:39] why on Earth do you want to have
[49:40] billions of universes isn't this the
[49:42] ultimate violation of aam's Razer the
[49:45] principle you shouldn't multiply
[49:47] entities unnecessarily I said you're
[49:49] multiplying universes to quadrillions of
[49:52] them he said yes but this way we get rid
[49:54] of God
[49:57] but the trouble is they haven't got rid
[49:59] of God because as theologians have
[50:01] pointed out an infinite God could be the
[50:04] god of an infinite number of universes
[50:07] they've simply proliferated universes
[50:09] but you see there's another way of
[50:11] thinking about it which is what I'm
[50:12] coming to which is the idea that my
[50:17] scientific hypothesis of morphic
[50:19] resonance which is the hypothesis as a
[50:22] memory in nature that the so-called laws
[50:25] of nature are not fixed laws that were
[50:27] fixed at the moment of the Big Bang they
[50:29] habits that have evolved nature
[50:32] certainly has regularities but there's a
[50:34] kind of memory within nature um that
[50:37] that shapes what happens each species
[50:40] has a kind of collective memory on which
[50:42] each individual draws and to which it
[50:44] contributes and this is a bit like what
[50:46] Yung called the collective unconscious
[50:48] except I'm saying it's not just humans
[50:50] it's everywhere everything in nature
[50:53] even crystals a particular kind of
[50:55] Crystal has a kind of collective memory
[50:57] of how to form and this Theory makes a
[51:01] lot of testable predictions if you make
[51:03] a new Crystal of a new compound for the
[51:06] first time it may take a long time to
[51:08] form but if you keep making it a habit
[51:11] will build up in nature morphic
[51:13] resonance transfers The Habit across
[51:15] time based on similarity and it'll get
[51:18] easier and easier to crystallize um and
[51:21] so it does it's known that things get
[51:24] easier to crystallize and chemists are
[51:26] say oh that's just getting better at
[51:27] doing it but the fact is it's not
[51:29] disputed that things do get easier to
[51:32] crystallize if you train rats to learn a
[51:35] new trick in Harvard then rats in in
[51:39] Britain and in Australia should learn
[51:41] the same trick quicker just because
[51:42] they've learned it in Harvard and that's
[51:44] actually been tested and that's what
[51:46] happens if a lot of people do a felet
[51:50] word puzzle called Wordle it's a new one
[51:53] every day published by the New York
[51:55] Times then during the course of the day
[51:57] it should get easier for people to solve
[52:00] that word puzzle because so many people
[52:02] have solved it it's already known that
[52:05] um it seems to get easier for people to
[52:08] do the Times crossword as the day goes
[52:10] on and many aysan AOS say they much more
[52:13] easily do it if they do it the next day
[52:15] than the day it's published so many
[52:17] people have already done it um IQ tests
[52:21] average scores have gone up by at least
[52:23] 30% all over the world not because
[52:25] people are 30% more intelligent but
[52:28] because the tests seem to be getting
[52:29] easier to do standardized tests so um
[52:33] this this is a testable hypothesis
[52:35] morphic resonance memory and nature and
[52:38] it gives us a completely different view
[52:40] of the regularities of nature we see
[52:42] them as evolutionary evolving within
[52:44] nature there's no need to postulate
[52:47] either a deistic god outside nature or
[52:49] trillions of unobserved universes
[52:51] without a shred of evidence U we can
[52:54] have a view of Nature and of memory
[52:57] that's very different and just finally
[53:00] to summarize this
[53:03] idea morphic resonance depends on
[53:06] similarity
[53:08] and and similarity between what's
[53:10] happening now and what happened in the
[53:11] past so if you ask the question who in
[53:15] the past was most similar to
[53:17] me the answer is me I'm more similar to
[53:21] me in the past than I am to you and that
[53:24] means the most specific resonance acting
[53:26] on me from the past with from my own
[53:28] past um self-resonance helps to maintain
[53:31] the form of organisms and I think
[53:34] underlies their Memories by morphic
[53:37] resonance well one of the dogmas of
[53:39] science that most people in Neuroscience
[53:42] would never challenge or even see as a
[53:44] Dogma or even an assumption as you were
[53:46] saying it's the idea that memories are
[53:48] stored in the brain it's just taken for
[53:50] granted in a materialist World
[53:52] everything's material memories must be
[53:54] material they must be stored somewhere
[53:56] in the brain
[53:57] people have spent a hundred years and
[53:59] billions of dollars trying to find
[54:01] memories stored in brains without
[54:03] success but have they given up no they
[54:06] just say we need more money and more
[54:08] time because then we'll finally track
[54:10] them down um and I think there's a very
[54:12] simple reason they haven't found them I
[54:14] don't think they're there
[54:16] and I think it's a bit like looking for
[54:19] traces in your TV set of programs you
[54:21] watched last
[54:23] night it's not how TV works it resonates
[54:26] with uh transmitters across space I'm
[54:29] suggesting memories work through
[54:31] resonance across
[54:32] time um it's not stored inside the brain
[54:36] at all the brain's more like a TV
[54:38] receiver than a video recorder now if
[54:41] you damage the brain you can have loss
[54:43] of memory if I damag your TV set I could
[54:46] cause it to lose sound I I could make it
[54:48] aphasic so that no sounds came out of it
[54:51] that wouldn't prove all the sounds are
[54:52] generated inside the TV set only that
[54:55] that's important for their perception
[54:57] and processing and in a similar way I
[55:00] think our memories are not stored in our
[55:02] brains whereas the materialists you see
[55:05] coming back to the materials World
[55:07] memories are stored in the brain the
[55:08] brain decays at death therefore all
[55:10] memories are wiped out at death no
[55:13] survival of death all these religions
[55:15] say there's
[55:17] transmigration reincarnation Heaven hell
[55:20] POG all just childish nonsense because
[55:23] we now know that memories are stored in
[55:25] the brain they're wiped out at death yes
[55:27] but they don't now know that they just
[55:29] think they know it and so that's just
[55:32] one example of where if you have one of
[55:34] the 10 dogmas is that memories are
[55:35] stored in the brain another Dogma is the
[55:38] laws of nature are fixed whereas morphic
[55:41] resonance provides a testable scientific
[55:44] hypothesis um that provides a completely
[55:46] different view that's much more
[55:48] compatible with an evolutionary view of
[55:50] nature I mean the the example of it that
[55:53] struck me from reading you is is the
[55:55] example of Dutch blue tits um I think
[55:58] it's dutch blue tits at least blue tits
[56:01] and the I thought it' be nice to hear
[56:03] about blue tits oh all right obviously
[56:07] you you've all been thinking that
[56:08] question haven't you oh we need to talk
[56:10] about blue tits now well the thing is
[56:13] that blue tits um around you some of you
[56:18] may be too young to remember when milk
[56:20] bottles were delivered to doorsteps
[56:22] luckily in Hamad where I live we still
[56:24] have this so every morning I have milk
[56:26] bottles deliver to my doorstep semis
[56:28] skimmed organic milk in a nice bottle
[56:30] that I rinse and return and Milkman
[56:33] arriving with milk it used to be
[56:35] everywhere um now it's a kind of Niche
[56:39] thing confined to parts of Hamstead I
[56:42] suppose do happen in V green I can tell
[56:46] you um anyway the thing is that around
[56:49] the 1920s that milk bottles had in those
[56:53] days cardboard Tops on them people in
[56:56] Southampton noticed that when they went
[56:58] to get their milk in the morning that
[57:00] the top bit was missing the cream at the
[57:02] top of the bottle is before semis
[57:04] skinned milk had been invented the cream
[57:06] was missing and the the top was sort of
[57:09] bits of the cardboard top were lying in
[57:11] shreds so Keeny observers soon found
[57:14] that blue tits had discovered how to
[57:17] open these bottle tots by pecking and
[57:19] pulling off the cardboard top and then
[57:22] drinking the cream and and in fact a few
[57:25] of them just have paid the price and
[57:28] people found and sometimes found drown
[57:30] blue tits head first inside their milk
[57:33] bottles but mostly they got away with it
[57:36] and um so this then started turned up
[57:40] somewhere else in England and some
[57:41] Cambridge scientists were through the
[57:44] British orthological society and various
[57:47] bird watching groups um got people all
[57:50] over the country to monitor the spread
[57:52] of this and it turned out it started
[57:54] popping up all over Britain when it
[57:57] popped up more than about 50 miles from
[57:59] where it had been seen before they took
[58:01] it to be an independent Discovery
[58:03] because blue tips don't move much they
[58:05] home loving birds and um so it was and
[58:09] the rate of discovery increased until by
[58:12] the time the Second World War began in
[58:14] 1939 blue tits all over Britain were
[58:16] doing it moreover blue tits in Holland
[58:19] were doing it and blue tits on the
[58:21] continent where they also had milk
[58:22] bottle
[58:24] deliveries then milk Del Li is stopped
[58:27] during the war um and after the war when
[58:31] they resumed again uh glut ended if
[58:34] three or four years so it wasn't as if
[58:36] there were lots of oldtimers he said the
[58:39] days of free cream are back
[58:45] again it popped up all over Britain um
[58:49] and moreover in in Holland where there
[58:51] was an even longer Break um it didn't
[58:53] resume milk delivery till 1948 had
[58:56] serious famines in Holland after the
[58:58] German occupation um it popped up again
[59:01] in Holland almost immediately
[59:03] everywhere um and when I when I first
[59:07] moved to Hamstead it happened to us all
[59:09] the time but then we swi switched to
[59:12] semis skin milk on health reasons and
[59:16] blue tit stopped doing it it wasn't
[59:17] worth their while so this habits more or
[59:19] less died out now o to the um spread of
[59:22] semis skimmed milk but the thing is that
[59:25] morphic resonance us would help to
[59:27] explain this evolutionary uh spread
[59:30] going accelerating spread and not just
[59:33] through imitation but through it just
[59:36] getting easier to do easier to learn and
[59:39] I think that in evolutionary terms a lot
[59:42] of behavior spreads within societies
[59:46] through morphic resonance and I'm
[59:49] actually on Monday I have a talk with a
[59:52] science lab in Lancer where I'm planning
[59:55] an experiment looking at antibiotic
[59:57] resistance in bacteria because it's been
[1:00:00] found that in bacteria
[1:00:02] um new kinds of resistance pop up and
[1:00:06] and when they occur they occur in one
[1:00:08] place but then they pop up all over the
[1:00:10] world and in a way that doesn't some
[1:00:13] epidemiologists who studied this think
[1:00:15] it can't just be explained by people
[1:00:17] traveling on planes and carrying these
[1:00:19] germs around with them there's something
[1:00:21] more mysterious going on I think it's
[1:00:23] morphic resonance we're doing
[1:00:25] experiments designed to see whether
[1:00:27] morphic resonance is playing a part in
[1:00:28] the spread of antibiotic resistance
[1:00:31] which I think it probably is but this
[1:00:33] would have big implications for
[1:00:35] evolution and understanding what's going
[1:00:38] on in evolution and for the spread of
[1:00:40] behavior and so this would give a new
[1:00:42] way of doing science this isn't
[1:00:45] anti-science which is my opponent say
[1:00:47] I'm anti-science because I'm going
[1:00:48] against the dogmas of science but
[1:00:51] actually I think it's more scientific to
[1:00:53] to question these things and to look at
[1:00:56] science in a new way I think whole new
[1:00:58] areas of science would open up in the
[1:01:00] most exciting way if we go beyond these
[1:01:03] the straight jacket of these dogmas I
[1:01:05] mean one of the things that it's
[1:01:07] noticeable in your work is that you you
[1:01:09] believe that science should come from
[1:01:10] what You observe should start with your
[1:01:12] observation not start with Theory um
[1:01:15] that it that it should be science it
[1:01:17] should be testing things you know one of
[1:01:20] the things you've done a lot in your
[1:01:21] life is um tests the sort of things that
[1:01:24] lots of people say you know like you've
[1:01:26] done done studies about dogs knowing
[1:01:27] their their their owners are coming home
[1:01:30] there's a particular dog in your book
[1:01:32] that's way striking we might hear about
[1:01:34] um you know I everybody that I grew up
[1:01:37] with always said that the dog knew when
[1:01:38] you were coming home and your vision of
[1:01:42] science is okay well we should be able
[1:01:43] to test that
[1:01:45] then yes well I start from Natural
[1:01:47] History I think science should start
[1:01:49] from natural history in the sense of
[1:01:51] what's actually happening when you look
[1:01:53] at the world um you know what's actually
[1:01:56] going on for example this thing I talked
[1:01:58] about in today's daily mail um a lot of
[1:02:02] people wrote into me saying that they
[1:02:04] found they could wake their dog or cat
[1:02:06] by staring at it so I put out an article
[1:02:09] in online and said you know have you
[1:02:11] ever noticed this and lots more stories
[1:02:13] poured in
[1:02:15] that if you just take one story it's an
[1:02:18] anecdote but I'm I'm of the view that
[1:02:20] the plural of anecdote is data and if
[1:02:23] thousands of people all over the world
[1:02:25] say they've seen the same kind of thing
[1:02:27] then something seems to be happening and
[1:02:29] it's worth investigating it still could
[1:02:31] be wrong couldn't it could still be
[1:02:33] wrong but what happened was that I
[1:02:35] started having lots of people telling me
[1:02:37] their dog or cat knew when they were
[1:02:39] coming home go wait at a door or a
[1:02:41] window and people would at home would
[1:02:44] know when the absent person was coming
[1:02:46] even if it was not a routine time from
[1:02:49] the dog's Behavior I I have over a
[1:02:51] thousand of these stories and about 500
[1:02:54] about cats um remarkable one about a cat
[1:02:57] that that with a naval I think it was a
[1:03:00] naval officer or something who didn't
[1:03:01] want to tell his mother when he was
[1:03:03] coming home that's right that was a
[1:03:04] neighbor of mine in my hometown new on
[1:03:06] Trent in na Hamshire um I was I got
[1:03:10] interested in this when I was working
[1:03:13] and writing in New York and an old the
[1:03:17] editor of the local newspaper the New
[1:03:18] York Advertiser was at school with me
[1:03:21] and I talked to him about this and he
[1:03:22] said oh yeah that happens with my dog um
[1:03:25] you know he said in fact it's
[1:03:26] embarrassing he said the dog knows when
[1:03:28] I leave the office to come home he said
[1:03:30] but sometimes he said I meet someone on
[1:03:32] the way and we go and have a drink and
[1:03:34] when I get home my wife says to me Roger
[1:03:36] where have you been you left the office
[1:03:38] two hours
[1:03:46] ago and and and then my neighbor um had
[1:03:50] a son who's a merchant Seaman and she he
[1:03:54] was very attached to the cat and and she
[1:03:56] said she always knew when he was coming
[1:03:57] he wouldn't tell her because he didn't
[1:03:59] want her to worry if the boat was
[1:04:01] delayed or if he missed the train or
[1:04:03] anything he'd never tell him he was
[1:04:04] coming home but the cat would get very
[1:04:06] excited would go to his room it would
[1:04:08] get and she'd know the signs and so
[1:04:10] she'd get his favorite food when he
[1:04:12] arrived home she'd got almost got his
[1:04:14] dinner ready she knew what he he was
[1:04:16] coming she got his food ready for him
[1:04:19] when I said to her that's remarkable how
[1:04:20] amazing she said oh the cat just knows I
[1:04:22] mean she didn't think about it she just
[1:04:24] took it for granted this is happening
[1:04:27] and I found more and more people did
[1:04:29] that and then I talked to some of my
[1:04:30] skeptical friends and they said oh yes
[1:04:33] it's just a routine or they're hearing
[1:04:36] subtle sounds of car engines familiar
[1:04:38] car engines from miles away and stuff so
[1:04:41] um they say they didn't deny the
[1:04:43] phenomenon in fact several of them said
[1:04:44] their own dogs did it how embarrassing
[1:04:47] for them they just explained it away so
[1:04:51] I then thought well okay what's the
[1:04:53] scientific approach it's not to sort of
[1:04:55] argue with people oh yes they do oh no
[1:04:57] they don't you do the experiments so um
[1:05:01] we found people with dogs that do it um
[1:05:04] set up cameras had them go at least 5
[1:05:07] miles away then come home at randomly
[1:05:09] chosen times they didn't know in advance
[1:05:12] um in unfamiliar Vehicles so there's no
[1:05:15] familiar car signs there's no routine
[1:05:17] the people at home didn't know when they
[1:05:18] were coming we told them when to come
[1:05:20] through telephone pager I just gave a
[1:05:23] signal at a randomized time and then on
[1:05:25] the film we filmed the dog the whole
[1:05:27] time they were out and on the film you
[1:05:29] see about 10 15 20 minutes before they
[1:05:32] come home the dog goes and starts
[1:05:34] waiting at the window and it it started
[1:05:37] waiting at the window when the person
[1:05:38] set off to come when they said goodbye
[1:05:41] to their friends and sort of went out
[1:05:43] when they called for the taxi it wasn't
[1:05:45] anything to do with actually slamming of
[1:05:47] car doors five miles away or anything um
[1:05:50] and we did this over and over and over
[1:05:52] again and with other dogs as well um and
[1:05:56] I this is on film on my website if you
[1:05:59] go to the experiments video section you
[1:06:02] can see a video of one of these
[1:06:04] experiments so this is a testable
[1:06:07] phenomenon that um had never been done
[1:06:11] before and it hasn't been done since in
[1:06:13] any University because it looks as if
[1:06:16] it's telepathic the dog's picking up the
[1:06:18] person's intention but telepathy is
[1:06:20] completely taboo within the academic
[1:06:23] world and the reason it's taboo is
[1:06:25] because because according to materialism
[1:06:28] your mind's nothing but the activity of
[1:06:29] your brain Therefore your thoughts about
[1:06:32] going home couldn't possibly influence a
[1:06:34] dog five miles away it's simply
[1:06:36] impossible therefore anyone who says
[1:06:38] it's happening like me is a pseudo
[1:06:41] scientist because they've either been
[1:06:43] duped or they've just been done such
[1:06:45] sloppy experiments they failed to see
[1:06:48] the flaws in in in in the experiments or
[1:06:51] they've been taken in by people who
[1:06:52] wishfully think their dogs have powers
[1:06:55] they don't really have and couldn't
[1:06:56] really have and I was treated with
[1:06:59] incredibly corrosive attacks from
[1:07:02] Skeptics for being a complete fraud just
[1:07:05] instead of saying it isn't this
[1:07:07] interesting let's try it
[1:07:08] ourselves one skeptic did try it himself
[1:07:11] and he got the same results but then he
[1:07:13] said that the dog had failed the test
[1:07:15] because uh before the person came home
[1:07:18] it had gone to the window went to the
[1:07:20] window a few times to look at passing
[1:07:22] cats and things and when I showed the
[1:07:24] dog was actually at the window about 3%
[1:07:26] of the time on his films before the
[1:07:29] owner came home about 75% of the time
[1:07:32] when the owner was coming was coming
[1:07:34] home he said well because it' already
[1:07:36] failed the test by a strict Criterion
[1:07:39] he'd invented all this other data was
[1:07:41] irrelevant and and he then got headlines
[1:07:44] in newspapers saying he had been refuted
[1:07:47] there was one of the newspapers very
[1:07:49] pleased when they thought of the
[1:07:50] headline psychic dog fails to give
[1:07:53] scientist a lead
[1:07:58] good isn't
[1:08:02] it anyway this this research can go on
[1:08:05] in people's homes around the land and
[1:08:07] and most people who are just ordinary
[1:08:09] dog or cat owners are much more Curious
[1:08:11] and Cooperative than people in
[1:08:13] universities uh because it's not because
[1:08:15] they're not interested in fact lots of
[1:08:17] scientists have told me their dogs know
[1:08:19] when they're coming home from the lab um
[1:08:21] but if you do this in a university you
[1:08:24] you just wouldn't get funding you you'd
[1:08:27] be attacked by people who doing pseudo
[1:08:29] science it's terrible and the reason for
[1:08:31] it is this dogmatic belief in the
[1:08:34] materialist world view which is truly
[1:08:36] inhibiting uh Curious science if I I
[1:08:40] know I'm talking too much but could I
[1:08:42] give one more example yeah yeah then
[1:08:43] I've got another question for yeah um
[1:08:45] well while you keep getting me on these
[1:08:47] themes you see that I'm really well
[1:08:49] you've read you know which things
[1:08:51] trigger me in in these not in the
[1:08:54] negative sense not in the negative
[1:08:56] positive triggers good at it um but um
[1:09:01] one of the things I I'm really
[1:09:02] interested in have been for years is the
[1:09:04] way that in many places animals seem to
[1:09:07] respond in advance to earthquakes and
[1:09:09] tsunamis there's been reports all
[1:09:11] through history of dogs cats and other
[1:09:14] animals snakes all sorts of animals
[1:09:17] behaving strangely before
[1:09:19] earthquakes and about 25 years ago I I
[1:09:23] tried to I talked to seismologists and
[1:09:25] they said oh it's just Superstition
[1:09:27] these you know people just sort of make
[1:09:28] it up after the event and they just
[1:09:30] remember these things but they forget if
[1:09:32] there's no earthquake they just forget
[1:09:34] all this thing so they're completely
[1:09:37] dismissive not the slightest curiosity
[1:09:39] it's impossible it can't happen so um I
[1:09:43] then had research assistance Whenever
[1:09:45] there were big earthquakes CC California
[1:09:49] turkey uh for years I had research
[1:09:51] assistants go there and um interview
[1:09:54] people after the CC Quake of 1997 I had
[1:09:58] an Italian research assistant went to a
[1:10:00] cc and you know asked the mayor in the
[1:10:03] restaurant hers and people and days
[1:10:05] before this rats had come out of their
[1:10:07] Burrows and were swarming all around the
[1:10:09] city restaurant hers complained to the
[1:10:11] mayor that they were losing trade
[1:10:13] because tourists who were having dinner
[1:10:14] on their Terraces didn't like having
[1:10:16] rats running around everywhere and asked
[1:10:18] the mayor to do something about it and
[1:10:20] this was two or three days before the
[1:10:22] Quake struck so ever since then I've
[1:10:25] I've been trying to
[1:10:26] persuade universities or seismologist to
[1:10:30] actually monitor animal behavior before
[1:10:32] earthquakes cuz you could have a warning
[1:10:34] system the Chinese actually developed
[1:10:36] one in the
[1:10:37] 1970s I even got two years ago onto the
[1:10:39] head of Google Maps because I knew
[1:10:41] someone at Google and they introduced me
[1:10:43] to the head of maps and I said look you
[1:10:45] could easily have an app that worked on
[1:10:47] Google Maps on mobile phones if people
[1:10:50] see unusual animal behavior they just
[1:10:52] press a button and if you get a surge of
[1:10:54] reports from somewhere in Iran or
[1:10:56] Afghanistan or India or Greece or
[1:10:59] California or something it could mean
[1:11:01] there's an impending
[1:11:02] earthquake and so she said she'd have to
[1:11:06] talk to people then she got back she
[1:11:07] said um said we're not interested in
[1:11:10] this project at this time and you
[1:11:13] because they'd be attacked they'd be
[1:11:14] criticized the Chinese who did this
[1:11:16] research and actually started talking
[1:11:18] about an international seismology
[1:11:20] conventions were shamed by the Western
[1:11:23] seismology said you've been taken in by
[1:11:25] this govern
[1:11:26] you know folklore and stuff but
[1:11:28] developing an app wouldn't be rocket
[1:11:30] science it be quite easy and this is
[1:11:32] another example of where this narrow
[1:11:35] minded dogmatic thinking and fear uh of
[1:11:39] of stepping beyond what everyone thinks
[1:11:42] is a consensus reality is actually
[1:11:44] impeding science and one thing I've I'm
[1:11:48] hoping with the launch of my book in
[1:11:50] Iran where they have quite a lot of
[1:11:51] earthquakes I'm getting trying to get
[1:11:53] this point across in Iran where they're
[1:11:56] fairly independent minded and um and
[1:11:59] they're perfectly good at programming
[1:12:01] things they could develop their own
[1:12:02] Earthquake warning system based on
[1:12:04] mobile phones I mean the story from your
[1:12:08] book about that struck me most was that
[1:12:10] that that herd of buffalo I think it was
[1:12:11] In tha
[1:12:13] Thailand before the tsunami yes there
[1:12:15] were a lot of unusual behavior before
[1:12:18] the tsunami I got onto the head of
[1:12:21] English scientist who was in charge of
[1:12:23] the British government's response to
[1:12:25] nami's task force to work on them and I
[1:12:28] suggested you know finding out what
[1:12:31] people had observed systematically where
[1:12:33] the great tsunami of
[1:12:35] 2004 um and document the animal behavior
[1:12:38] thing as a first step and he didn't even
[1:12:42] reply to my letter his assistant replied
[1:12:45] saying that he was personally interested
[1:12:47] but um they they saw this as a purely
[1:12:50] physics problem and they're going to
[1:12:51] have sensors wave detecting things
[1:12:53] satellite detection systems to get wavs
[1:12:56] but that wouldn't give them enough
[1:12:57] warning um so again over and over again
[1:13:01] the there's this incredibly narrow it's
[1:13:03] not as if these projects would even be
[1:13:06] expensive they're cheap and they're a
[1:13:08] lot cheaper than having satellites and
[1:13:10] wave monitoring boys and automated
[1:13:13] equipment costing millions and millions
[1:13:14] of pounds you could just sort of find
[1:13:16] out what happening with the Buffalo as
[1:13:18] yes just find out get people to observe
[1:13:20] the animals if they see animals behaving
[1:13:23] strangely moving away from the seashore
[1:13:26] in in a way that
[1:13:28] um that actually where during the 2004
[1:13:31] tsunami in the anderman islands the
[1:13:33] tribal people there weren't affected by
[1:13:36] it because they noticed the animals
[1:13:37] doing this and they knew this happened
[1:13:39] before tsunamis and they all went on to
[1:13:40] higher ground but all the more
[1:13:42] sophisticated people who thought they
[1:13:44] were smarter than these primitive
[1:13:46] tribals were devastated by these huge
[1:13:49] title waves so let let we better sort of
[1:13:53] start to wind this to a close but um I I
[1:13:56] think it'd be good then I think to go to
[1:13:58] this if what then is consciousness you
[1:14:02] know if we started
[1:14:04] with this thought that you know that the
[1:14:07] the the the the Dogma as you would put
[1:14:09] it that we've got which is that mind is
[1:14:12] merely an epid phenomenon of the brain
[1:14:14] that it's locked inside the brain and
[1:14:15] that it doesn't get radiate out uh
[1:14:18] therefore at death is destroyed
[1:14:19] completely your memories have destroyed
[1:14:22] completely what do you think
[1:14:23] Consciousness might be I mean obviously
[1:14:25] Consciousness isn't conscious I don't
[1:14:27] what is mind I mean it's an impossible
[1:14:29] question
[1:14:30] because may as well go there you know
[1:14:33] well why
[1:14:34] not we're on you know we're big
[1:14:37] questions yeah um well I mean if we we
[1:14:42] have to step back a bit to look at
[1:14:43] philosophical discussions because after
[1:14:45] all this has been debated for a long
[1:14:47] time but the the the general view I mean
[1:14:51] all
[1:14:52] religions I'm not quite sure about
[1:14:54] Buddhism you know obviously it's but
[1:14:57] everyone except Buddhism let's say for
[1:14:59] the time being takes for granted the
[1:15:01] Consciousness comes first you know God
[1:15:05] creates the world you know God comes
[1:15:06] first and God is a conscious being every
[1:15:09] conception of God or supernatural beings
[1:15:11] or Spiritual Beings is that they're
[1:15:13] conscious not unconscious and so no
[1:15:18] almost all creation stories or World
[1:15:20] Views start uh with the idea that
[1:15:23] Consciousness comes first and then in
[1:15:27] the judeo-christian creation story um
[1:15:31] you know the the acts of division God
[1:15:33] says let there be light and the light is
[1:15:35] separated from Darkness there's a series
[1:15:37] of Creative Steps in the universe which
[1:15:40] mainly involve separating polarities
[1:15:43] they still happen in The Big Bang Theory
[1:15:45] only instead of the separation of
[1:15:47] polarities it's called it's now called
[1:15:49] spontaneous symmetry breaking but it's
[1:15:52] essentially the same model um you know
[1:15:54] the separation of light from darkness is
[1:15:56] called the decoupling of matter and
[1:15:58] radiation but it's one of the first
[1:16:00] steps in our modern cosmogony um so if
[1:16:05] Consciousness comes first then
[1:16:07] everything in nature is reflecting that
[1:16:09] ultimate Consciousness and when
[1:16:11] Consciousness occurs in people then it's
[1:16:14] a reflection or refraction or a fractile
[1:16:17] version of that Primal Consciousness and
[1:16:20] you know when I lived in India this is
[1:16:22] just so taken for granted as part of the
[1:16:24] culture you know a familiar metaphor
[1:16:27] Buddhist may use it too is that U if you
[1:16:30] have lots of buckets of water outside on
[1:16:32] a moonlit night and you look in the
[1:16:34] buckets in each bucket you see a
[1:16:36] reflection of the moon it's as if
[1:16:38] there's a moon in every bucket but
[1:16:39] actually all those moons are reflections
[1:16:42] of the one Moon just as our minds are
[1:16:45] all reflections of the ultimate
[1:16:46] Consciousness and come from it now
[1:16:49] personally I find that a much more
[1:16:51] persuasive view a much more convincing
[1:16:53] view but it's not something that you
[1:16:55] could easily prove scientifically but
[1:16:58] you can prove I think the reason that
[1:17:00] it's been so widespread in the world is
[1:17:02] that many people through meditation or
[1:17:06] through spontaneous mystical
[1:17:08] experiences actually feel that their
[1:17:10] mind is part of a greater Consciousness
[1:17:12] than their own they actually experience
[1:17:14] this it's not a theory it's not someone
[1:17:17] saying you know it's been observed and
[1:17:19] experiments and with statistical
[1:17:21] significance and stuff it's actual
[1:17:23] direct experience of being being part of
[1:17:25] something much greater than oneself and
[1:17:28] I think that's the origin of all
[1:17:29] religions really that they they all
[1:17:31] start from people who have this
[1:17:33] experience of Enlightenment conscious a
[1:17:36] greater Consciousness which doesn't come
[1:17:39] through I mean the Buddha didn't get
[1:17:40] enlightened through doing a PhD in
[1:17:43] Consciousness
[1:17:45] studies Jesus didn't realize his direct
[1:17:48] connection with God through going to a
[1:17:50] rabinal seminary it happened at the
[1:17:52] moment of his baptism immersion in the
[1:17:55] River Jordan comes up with what I think
[1:17:58] was a near-death experience and opens up
[1:18:01] to this Divine Consciousness so this is
[1:18:04] why people think that because they've
[1:18:05] experienced it and when one looks from
[1:18:09] that point of view of Consciousness as
[1:18:12] primary um then you can reframe the way
[1:18:15] you see nature Nature's still there
[1:18:18] there's still the patterns in nature you
[1:18:20] can still have science and all that kind
[1:18:22] of thing um and actually rather
[1:18:24] surprising inly there's a Resurgence of
[1:18:26] idealist philosophy that sees
[1:18:28] Consciousness as primary going on right
[1:18:30] now Bernardo castrop is one of the
[1:18:33] leading proponents and you're going to
[1:18:35] be talking to him soon next week we're
[1:18:37] having an online debate yes uh me and
[1:18:40] cast TR because he takes the view a kind
[1:18:43] of rather monistic view of idealism and
[1:18:46] he's rather conservative scientifically
[1:18:49] and whereas I you see I'm I'm against
[1:18:52] cartisian dualism most people think two
[1:18:55] is too many so you've just got to have
[1:18:57] one I think two is too few I think you
[1:18:59] need three at least kind of trinitarian
[1:19:02] models of Consciousness and um so but
[1:19:06] that's a whole other
[1:19:09] topic I mean Buddhism thinks that mind
[1:19:11] precedes world you know that's that's
[1:19:14] good well then it does that's a given
[1:19:15] you know I never like to generalize
[1:19:17] Buddhism because someone always jumps on
[1:19:19] me Buddhism is atheist it doesn't
[1:19:21] believe in God and sort of and you
[1:19:23] immediately put down the minute you say
[1:19:24] anything but and so I'm glad you said
[1:19:28] that I mean Buddhism doesn't believe in
[1:19:31] God but I think what Buddhism Buddhism
[1:19:33] would say something like the
[1:19:36] experiences that people have you know I
[1:19:38] I I agree with you this thing that um we
[1:19:42] you know many people I include myself
[1:19:44] have experience of being part of
[1:19:46] something infinitely larger than us you
[1:19:48] know it seems to me almost that What
[1:19:50] Makes Us human yes that we're not a our
[1:19:53] materialistic view is like we're in like
[1:19:55] toy in a box and eventually the toy
[1:19:57] breaks and the Box continues completely
[1:19:59] separate from us and and that seems to
[1:20:01] me to be wrong and my experience
[1:20:03] suggests that although it's a very deep
[1:20:05] view um what I think I would then differ
[1:20:09] on is calling something God you know I I
[1:20:13] I for me that is a problematic metaphor
[1:20:16] but I I get what it's you know sort of
[1:20:20] trying to open
[1:20:21] up well again this is we have a whole
[1:20:24] other
[1:20:25] conversation you know I'm a practicing
[1:20:27] Christian and for me God is is a
[1:20:30] trinitarian is a trinity of aspects not
[1:20:33] an undifferentiated
[1:20:35] Consciousness and um you know there's
[1:20:38] paralleled in Kashmir shiism the no the
[1:20:41] known and the means of knowledge and in
[1:20:44] sat chitando there are trinitarian
[1:20:46] models in many Traditions yeah and of
[1:20:49] course there are three levels in
[1:20:50] Buddhism as well I mean so
[1:20:53] um but this is a different conversation
[1:20:56] but the materialist view seems to me
[1:20:59] such a narrow and you can see how they
[1:21:02] got there historically you know
[1:21:04] rejecting religion because of religious
[1:21:06] wars carving out this neutral zone for
[1:21:08] science Making simplifying assumptions
[1:21:11] just and then believing it's all true
[1:21:13] and and truer than anything else and you
[1:21:16] can see how it's got there but it didn't
[1:21:18] come Consciousness on the way doesn't it
[1:21:20] and then just say what it can't threw
[1:21:21] out the baby with the bath water yes and
[1:21:24] then left with
[1:21:26] the hard problem I mean it's an
[1:21:28] intractable problem for materialist the
[1:21:30] very fact we're conscious they can't
[1:21:31] deal with
[1:21:33] it which is why some of them are going
[1:21:35] over to idealism and quite a lot there's
[1:21:38] a large move towards pan psychism yeah
[1:21:41] um and it's very hard nowadays to find a
[1:21:44] sort of old style totally
[1:21:47] confident un unreflective materialist I
[1:21:50] mean the Dawkins of this world are now
[1:21:52] kind of endangered species
[1:21:56] well science perhaps we finish with
[1:21:57] science does seem to be changing doesn't
[1:21:59] it because you you were you know it's
[1:22:02] very interesting if you look at
[1:22:03] Wikipedia almost the first sentence it
[1:22:05] accuses you of pseudo science yes um and
[1:22:09] it's just a sort of slur that means that
[1:22:11] we don't need to we just can we can
[1:22:13] happily ignore this person really I mean
[1:22:15] there must be such a thing as pseudo
[1:22:16] science but it seems to me that science
[1:22:19] is changing do you think well I think so
[1:22:22] the point is that the majority of
[1:22:24] scientists are not not dogmatic
[1:22:26] materialists the scientific and medical
[1:22:28] Network recently had a survey done by
[1:22:30] public opinion organization UAV um of
[1:22:34] practicing scientists engineers and and
[1:22:37] doctors in Britain France and Germany
[1:22:40] about 25% identified as materialists and
[1:22:43] atheists about 20% identified as
[1:22:46] agnostic but
[1:22:48] non-religious um that's 45% who are
[1:22:51] non-religious about 45% even here in
[1:22:54] Britain
[1:22:55] identified as spiritual or religious or
[1:22:58] spiritual but not religious like
[1:23:01] spiritual SL religious so only about a
[1:23:03] quarter of the of even in the most
[1:23:06] hardcore atheist countries like Britain
[1:23:08] France and Germany um identify as
[1:23:11] atheist and materialist and most
[1:23:14] scientists go along with work they go
[1:23:17] along with it because it's what everyone
[1:23:19] believes get funding for us what you get
[1:23:22] funded and when I was in India it was
[1:23:23] even more extreme because I was working
[1:23:25] in a international scientific Institute
[1:23:28] in hyderbad India and my Indian
[1:23:31] colleagues uh were practically all of
[1:23:34] them sort of Fairly conventional
[1:23:36] practicing Hindus Muslims Janes siks
[1:23:39] pares Etc I didn't meet among all my
[1:23:42] colleagues a single atheist and but when
[1:23:46] you when they were at work it was just
[1:23:48] conventional Western type science they
[1:23:52] didn't question it because it were
[1:23:54] that's the culture
[1:23:55] as soon as they got home in the evening
[1:23:57] then they turned back into Hindus or
[1:23:59] Muslims or whatever um so it's not as if
[1:24:03] they were deeply committed to this world
[1:24:05] view and in
[1:24:07] fact I think the situation we're in now
[1:24:10] is a bit like Russia under BNF you know
[1:24:12] in the later days of the Soviet
[1:24:15] Union you very few people openly
[1:24:18] criticized Marxism or dialectical
[1:24:20] materialism because if you did you were
[1:24:22] a dissident and if you were a dissident
[1:24:24] you get a sent Siberia or or at best
[1:24:28] psychiatric
[1:24:30] institution um so you know when the
[1:24:33] chairman of the Central Committee made a
[1:24:35] speech and they all those delegates
[1:24:36] clapped in their halls and so how many
[1:24:40] of them still believed it when the
[1:24:41] Soviet Union collapsed some did but it
[1:24:44] certainly wasn't everyone and what's
[1:24:47] happened since the collapse of the
[1:24:48] Soviet Union has been an enormous
[1:24:49] Resurgence of Russian Orthodox
[1:24:52] Christianity yes so um
[1:24:55] the the I think within science at the
[1:24:57] moment that the I know this is true
[1:25:00] because whenever I give talks in
[1:25:01] scientific institutions where I talk
[1:25:04] quite freely about the things I'm
[1:25:06] interested in and and there's sometimes
[1:25:09] a few people boycott my talks you know
[1:25:11] because they're so hostile and try to
[1:25:13] get me disinvited before the talk
[1:25:15] happens but most people come along to it
[1:25:18] and after the talk what almost always
[1:25:21] happens is person after person comes up
[1:25:23] to me with their cup of tea or glass of
[1:25:25] wine they look see no one's listening
[1:25:27] and they say you I'm really interested
[1:25:29] in what you said my dog knows when I'm
[1:25:31] coming
[1:25:34] home in the laboratory you know I've had
[1:25:37] these mystical experiences and I can't
[1:25:39] talk to my colleagues here about it
[1:25:41] because they're all so straight and so
[1:25:42] then another one comes up and they says
[1:25:44] the same thing and by about the fourth
[1:25:46] or fifth one I usually say well actually
[1:25:48] you're not alone and they said how do
[1:25:50] you know and I said well at least four
[1:25:51] of your colleagues have already said
[1:25:53] something very similar
[1:25:55] they say who I well
[1:25:59] him so I saw say why didn't you come out
[1:26:02] of the closet you know life life would
[1:26:04] be so much more fun so the scientific
[1:26:07] institutions are full of closet holists
[1:26:10] or people with a more mystical view of
[1:26:12] nature but it's like gays in the 1950s
[1:26:15] you know they don't feel they can
[1:26:16] possibly say it among their colleagues
[1:26:19] so I think one of the things that will
[1:26:20] change Sciences are coming out of the
[1:26:22] closet movement
[1:26:24] that's a great place to finish thank you
[1:26:26] very much
[1:26:27] [Applause]