BrightStar

Browse All Events

Discover conscious gatherings

events

Yoga
Meditation
Breathwork
Qigong
Tai Chi
Sacred Music
World Music
Medicine Music
Sound Healing
Ecstatic Dance
Popular Destinations
BaliSedonaLos AngelesCosta RicaNew YorkSan FranciscoAustinMiamiJoshua TreeTulum
View All CategoriesView All Destinations

Explore All Features

Powerful tools to grow your events

Platform Features

Smart Dynamic Pricing
Ticket Categories
Assigned Seating
Abandoned Cart Recovery
Visitor Recovery
Donations & Sliding Scale
Affiliate Engine
Ticket Scanner
Coupon Codes
Custom Questions
Ticket Sharing
Upsells & Add-ons
Analytics & Reporting
Email Sequences
Waitlist / Notify / Remind
People & Places
Artists & TeachersEvent OrganizersVenues & StudiosKnowledge BaseGlossaryInspiration
View All FeaturesAbout Us
PricingBlog
Language
Saved events
Browse All Events

events

YogaMeditationBreathworkQigongTai ChiSacred MusicWorld MusicMedicine Music

Popular Destinations

BaliSedonaLos AngelesCosta RicaNew YorkSan Francisco

People & Places

Artists & TeachersEvent OrganizersVenues & StudiosKnowledge BaseGlossaryInspiration

Platform Features

Smart Dynamic PricingTicket CategoriesAssigned SeatingAbandoned Cart RecoveryVisitor RecoveryDonations & Sliding ScaleAffiliate EngineTicket ScannerCoupon CodesCustom QuestionsTicket SharingUpsells & Add-onsAnalytics & ReportingEmail SequencesWaitlist / Notify / Remind
View All FeaturesAbout Us
PricingBlog
Log inFind EventsHost Events
  • Browse All Events
  • For Seekers
  • Yoga
  • Meditation
  • Breathwork
  • Qigong
  • Tai Chi
  • Sacred Music
  • World Music
  • Medicine Music
  • Sound Healing
  • Ecstatic Dance
  • Retreats
  • Workshops
  • All Categories →
  • Bali
  • Sedona
  • Los Angeles
  • Costa Rica
  • Tulum
  • Byron Bay
  • San Francisco
  • Austin
  • New York
  • San Diego
  • Denver
  • Seattle
  • Portland
  • Miami
  • All Cities →
  • Join the Movement
  • Why we list
  • Sell Globally
  • For Creators
  • For Teams
  • For Writers
  • For Teachers
  • For Kirtan Artists
  • For Studios
  • For Festivals
  • For Retreat Centers
  • For Nonprofits
  • Brand Ambassador
  • Free Ticketing
  • Elevate
  • Amplify
  • 500K+ Buyer Network
  • Abandoned Cart Recovery
  • Smart Dynamic Pricing
  • Ticket Categories
  • Recurring Events
  • Assigned Seating
  • Affiliate Engine
  • Waitlist / Notify
  • Ticket Scanner
  • Embed Widget
  • Event Syndication
  • Message Center
  • Integrations
  • Reports
  • All Features →
  • About
  • The Ecosystem
  • Blog
  • Glossary
  • Inspiration
  • Help Center
  • Contact
  • API Docs
  • Brand Assets
  • Careers
  • Press
  • Terms of Service
  • Privacy Policy

Events

  • Browse All Events
  • For Seekers
  • Yoga
  • Meditation
  • Breathwork
  • Qigong
  • Tai Chi
  • Sacred Music
  • World Music
  • Medicine Music
  • Sound Healing
  • Ecstatic Dance
  • Retreats
  • Workshops
  • All Categories →

Destinations

  • Bali
  • Sedona
  • Los Angeles
  • Costa Rica
  • Tulum
  • Byron Bay
  • San Francisco
  • Austin
  • New York
  • San Diego
  • Denver
  • Seattle
  • Portland
  • Miami
  • All Cities →

For Creators

  • Join the Movement
  • Why we list
  • Sell Globally
  • For Creators
  • For Teams
  • For Writers
  • For Teachers
  • For Kirtan Artists
  • For Studios
  • For Festivals
  • For Retreat Centers
  • For Nonprofits
  • Brand Ambassador
  • Free Ticketing
  • Elevate
  • Amplify

Features

  • 500K+ Buyer Network
  • Abandoned Cart Recovery
  • Smart Dynamic Pricing
  • Ticket Categories
  • Recurring Events
  • Assigned Seating
  • Affiliate Engine
  • Waitlist / Notify
  • Ticket Scanner
  • Embed Widget
  • Event Syndication
  • Message Center
  • Integrations
  • Reports
  • All Features →

Company

  • About
  • The Ecosystem
  • Blog
  • Glossary
  • Inspiration
  • Help Center
  • Contact
  • API Docs
  • Brand Assets
  • Careers
  • Press
  • Terms of Service
  • Privacy Policy
BrightStar
Get the app
Download on theApp StoreGet it onGoogle Play
© 2026 BrightStar. All rights reserved.
Inspiration

Koans, Camouflage, and the Porous Line Between Zen Schools

Upaya Zen Center
Upaya Zen Center
Oct 15, 2026
9 min read
Watch · 6

A Zen teacher stands before a sangha that is partly in the room and partly on a screen, and she admits she cannot see the people online. She says she wrote her talk that afternoon, printed it, and is no longer sure what it says. "So, we'll find out," she tells the room, and the laughter that follows sets the tone for the next half hour. In this talk, recorded for the Upaya Zen Center in Santa Fe, New Mexico, Sensei Sokaku Kathie Fischer does something that many Dharma talks avoid: she opens the history books. She begins with the centuries-long separation of the two great Zen lineages, moves through a koan collected almost a thousand years ago, and ends with a close look at how the mind works in the body's senses. The thread running through all of it is a question about where things become fixed and where they stay fluid.

Read · 6 sections

How did the Soto and Rinzai schools come apart?

The split between Soto and Rinzai, she explains, did not happen overnight, and it did not happen everywhere at once. It unfolded gradually, primarily in Japan. The figure most associated with its shape is Hakuin, an eighteenth-century Rinzai master who, she says, created the codified curriculum of koan practice, working undoubtedly in collaboration with others. In that curriculum a student receives successive koans and meets repeatedly with the teacher to demonstrate understanding until each one is mastered according to the program's requirements. It is structured, sequential, and accountable, and it is the feature most people now associate with Rinzai training.

Hakuin lived from 1686 to 1769, a period she pins to a vivid historical backdrop: the thirteen American colonies gaining their identities, fighting in the French and Indian Wars, and feeling friction with Britain over taxation and westward expansion into Native lands. The koans that Hakuin's curriculum organized were far older. She points out that the collected koans come from the Tang Dynasty, nearly a thousand years earlier. In between, they were gathered, commented upon, and used as teaching tools and sources of inspiration, a long conversation that Hakuin eventually gave a formal shape.

The most telling detail in her account, though, is about the people, not the institutions. She describes Hongzhi, a Chinese ancestor whom the tradition would regard as Soto, who taught what is called silent illumination. His closest friend and contemporary was Dahui, whom the tradition would regard as a Rinzai teacher, "kind of a kick-butt Rinzai teacher," as she puts it. The two sparred with each other while keeping mutual respect and warm friendship. When Hongzhi died, he left his temple to Dahui and asked him to conduct his memorial service. "So these were close friends," she says, and their styles were different, but they learned from each other and nurtured each other as they developed their own voices.

"So this tells us that the divide between Soto and Rinzai was not really firm and solidified. It became so later in Japan." (Sokaku Kathie Fischer, Upaya Zen Center Dharma talk, about 6:36)

She also sketches the lineage that connects these figures. Hongzhi lived from 1091 to 1157, mostly in the twelfth century. Dogen came to China in 1223, well after Hongzhi's death but within the same century, and met his teacher Rujing, who was Hongzhi's Dharma great-grandson. Hongzhi, Rujing, and Dogen form a continuous line. Another five hundred years passed before Hakuin's codification. The timeline matters because it shows that the walls people now assume between the schools were built later, in a different century and under different pressures.

What makes a koan's question different from its answer?

Three main koan collections are still in use, she notes: the Blue Cliff Record, or Hekiganroku; the Gateless Gate, or Mumonkan; and the Book of Serenity, also called the Book of Equanimity, or Shoyoroku. Many of the same koans appear in two of the three, with slightly different emphases. Then she names a pattern that she wants her listeners to notice: in many koans, the questions are general and the answers are specific.

This observation becomes the hinge of the talk. Her argument is that generalizations are produced by the mind and are intellectual. Direct experience through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body is specific, and it "cannot be other than specific." She gives ordinary examples. We do not hear a sound as a generalization; it is loud or soft, high or low, with a particular timbre. We do not feel pain as a generalization, either. "Pain is specific," she says, characterized as sharp or dull and located in a particular place.

"We don't perceive sounds as generalizations. They are loud or soft, high or low pitch. They have a timbre, etc." (Sokaku Kathie Fischer, Upaya Zen Center Dharma talk, about 10:23)

For a student working with a koan, this distinction is not academic. A koan question like "What is this?" invites a general answer built from concepts, and the teacher's reply usually lands on something concrete and immediate. The koan works when the student stops reaching for an abstraction and meets the specific moment directly. The talk does not spell out every koan's resolution, but the structure she describes, a broad question met by a particular response, is the engine of the practice.

How does the mind take in the senses, and why does it get so busy?

She turns next to the Heart Sutra, which lists the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind together. In Buddhist teaching, she says, the mind is counted as one of the senses. The Upaya translation that the community chants renders the passage as "realm of eyes" through "realm of mind consciousness." Each realm has its own material basis. The realm of the eyes is light waves, what we see. The realm of the ears is sound waves, what we hear. The realm of mind is synthesis.

"The realm of mind is synthesis. Mind synthesizes. It collaborates with the other senses to create a perceived functional pattern that we can act on." (Sokaku Kathie Fischer, Upaya Zen Center Dharma talk, about 11:49)

To make this concrete, she describes working at her desk when she hears rain on the roof. She looks out and sees the day has grown darker, and she locates an umbrella and sets it by her shoes. The information came from the eyes and ears. The plan came from the mind. The mind is, in her words, "a busy bee," and it can synthesize endlessly without purpose, or toward harmful ends such as repetitive self-doubt, or clinging to something even when the outcome is known to be destructive. It often runs on high function even when nothing is required of it. That is why meditation instructions so often speak of quieting the mind, she says. The aim is not to shut off the synthesizing faculty but to notice when it is working unnecessarily.

What does camouflage have to do with Dharma practice?

The talk's most memorable image comes from evolutionary biology. She recalls reading Robert Wright's The Moral Animal, which came out in the 1990s, and its account of camouflage in animals. Camouflage, she explains, is a defense strategy, often to trick a predator by becoming small, still, and invisible. She connects this to her years as a retired schoolteacher. Some children use the same strategy to avoid being noticed and to avoid speaking up in class, and the habit can follow a person into adulthood.

She sees the same pattern in Dharma discussions. Some people always hold back, while others always come forward. Her point is not to label either type but to notice the strategy underneath. She adds a second form of camouflage: looking like a different creature that carries an effective defense. Her example is the monarch butterfly, which is toxic to birds and other predators that might eat it. Whether one hides by disappearing or by borrowing another's protection, the defense is an adaptation, and it can be just as habitual in the mind as in the wild.

Read against the koan material, the camouflage discussion carries an unstated question: what do we hide behind when we avoid the specific moment? The general answer, the safe abstraction, the borrowed posture, can all function as camouflage. Practice asks us to come out of cover and meet what is actually here, which is the same invitation the koan tradition makes.

Where does this talk leave a listener?

The talk moves in several directions before it ends, from Yunmen, whom she introduces as a teacher whose koans she wants to examine, to a passage about the body exposed in the golden wind, and to a discussion of beginner's mind and the value of an empty vessel. Not every thread is fully developed in the transcript available here, and that is part of its character: this is a teacher thinking aloud, and the lived sense of the talk is in the questions she keeps returning to. Where did the schools actually divide? Why does a question need an answer that is specific? What defense are we using right now?

What the talk offers is a way of reading Zen history that refuses to harden it. The Soto and Rinzai schools have distinct emphases, the koan collections have distinct emphases, and the teachers themselves had their own styles. Yet Hongzhi and Dahui, who sparred and nurtured each other, show that the lines were not firm. Hakuin, who was disgraced by a false accusation, responded with a plain "Oh, is that so?" and never defended himself by blaming anyone else. That response, which the speaker tells as a story of how a teacher holds steady under pressure, is in its own way a specific answer to a general problem.

Where to go from here

If this talk has you curious about koan practice, start with the three collections she names: the Blue Cliff Record, the Gateless Gate, and the Book of Serenity. Reading two of them side by side will show the differences in emphasis she describes. For the mind-and-senses material, the Heart Sutra is the natural companion, since she draws directly on its list of realms. If camouflage and the Moral Animal caught your attention, Robert Wright's book is the source she names. And to continue the practice side, Upaya Zen Center offers daily Zen meditation, weekly Dharma talks, and a Wisdom Library, all described on the center's own website at upaya.org.

Comments

Loading the conversation…

Transcript

[0:02] Good afternoon, good evening, and

[0:06] where is the people online?

[0:10] Right up there.

[0:14] Welcome to all of you from

[0:17] all over, wherever you are.

[0:21] It would I would could say it's

[0:22] wonderful to see you, but I can't see

[0:24] you, so it's wonderful to be with you

[0:27] in the way that we are.

[0:30] So, um I'm so happy to be here at

[0:34] Tassajara at

[0:37] >> [laughter]

[0:40] >> And I, you know, every time I come here,

[0:43] I'm just in awe of the

[0:46] of the work and the love and the

[0:49] commitment over all these years that

[0:53] each person who comes here brings and

[0:56] contributes to.

[0:58] We have um

[1:00] wonderful residents.

[1:02] We have a history of wonderful

[1:05] residents. Wonderful teachers,

[1:08] wonderful uh local Sangha members and

[1:11] visitors from all over.

[1:14] And of course, uh deep gratitude for

[1:18] Roshi Joan who whose vision

[1:22] allowed this place to come into being

[1:25] and to stay into being, which is a tall

[1:28] order these days.

[1:30] So, her work, her vision, her

[1:35] uh commitment uh just goes on and on and

[1:40] we are so deeply grateful

[1:42] for her, to her, and for all the people

[1:45] who have committed

[1:47] their time, their love, their commitment

[1:49] to

[1:51] make Upaya be

[1:53] a practice place for all kinds of

[1:56] people, a refuge.

[2:00] So,

[2:01] >> [clears throat]

[2:02] >> this is always an exciting moment

[2:04] because

[2:05] as you know, I I wrote this, you know, I

[2:08] finished reading writing it and I had it

[2:11] printed and that was a couple of hours

[2:13] ago and I can't really say for sure that

[2:15] I remember what I wrote. So,

[2:18] we'll find out.

[2:20] >> [laughter]

[2:22] >> Um

[2:24] uh as Kodo said, I am going to talk a

[2:26] little bit about Zen history first of

[2:28] all.

[2:29] Um

[2:30] how

[2:32] first of all, how Soto Zen tradition

[2:34] differentiated from Rinzai.

[2:38] And that happened gradually

[2:40] primarily in Japan.

[2:43] So, Japanese ancestor Hakuin created

[2:48] undoubted- undoubtedly in collaboration

[2:50] with others

[2:52] the codified curriculum of koan

[2:55] practice.

[2:57] In which students a student is given

[2:59] successive koans to work with, meets

[3:02] with the teacher repeatedly

[3:04] uh to demonstrate her understanding

[3:07] until each koan is mastered according to

[3:10] the requirements of the curriculum.

[3:14] Hakuin was a beloved and highly

[3:16] acclaimed Japanese Rinzai Zen teacher.

[3:20] There's a famous story about him in

[3:22] which

[3:23] a young woman accused him of fathering

[3:26] her child.

[3:29] The young woman and her family go to

[3:31] Hakuin's temple to hand him the baby

[3:35] and confront him with this.

[3:37] His only response is, "Oh, is that so?"

[3:44] He took in and he cared for the baby.

[3:48] The young woman

[3:50] felt badly about this.

[3:52] And at sometime later, she confessed to

[3:55] her father, to her family, what she had

[3:58] done.

[3:59] That is, falsely accused Hakuin of

[4:02] fathering her child.

[4:05] Horrified by the news, the family came

[4:08] to the temple

[4:11] to apologize to Hakuin

[4:14] and take back the baby.

[4:16] Hakuin's response was, "Oh, is that so?"

[4:22] So,

[4:24] Hakuin's reputation was badly damaged

[4:28] and was not ever repaired

[4:31] by this event.

[4:33] Yet, he never defended himself, nor

[4:36] blamed anyone else.

[4:39] Defending himself would mean accusing

[4:41] someone else, and he wasn't willing to

[4:43] do that.

[4:47] Hakuin lived in Japan from 1686 to 1769,

[4:53] which is when the 13 American colonies

[4:56] were gaining identities,

[4:59] fighting in the French and Indian Wars,

[5:03] seeing

[5:04] increased friction with Great Britain

[5:06] over taxation and territorial expansion

[5:10] west into Native American land.

[5:14] This is many centuries later than the

[5:18] collected koans from the Tang Dynasty,

[5:21] almost a thousand years later.

[5:25] During those nearly thousand years,

[5:29] koans were collected,

[5:31] commentaries were written,

[5:33] and they were used as teaching tools

[5:36] or teaching inspiration.

[5:40] A few years ago at Upaya, here at Upaya

[5:43] during fall practice period,

[5:46] excuse me.

[6:12] So a few years ago at Upaya during fall

[6:14] practice period

[6:16] we studied Hongzhi.

[6:19] He was a brilliant and beautiful Chinese

[6:22] in ancestor who we would consider Soto.

[6:27] He taught silent illumination.

[6:30] Yet his best buddy and contemporary was

[6:34] Dahui

[6:36] who we would consider a Rinzai teacher,

[6:39] kind of a kick-butt Rinzai teacher.

[6:43] These best friends sparred with each

[6:46] other while maintaining mutual respect

[6:50] and warm friendship.

[6:53] In fact Hongzhi bequeathed his temple to

[6:56] Dahui when he died.

[6:59] He also asked him to do his memorial

[7:02] service for him.

[7:04] So these were close friends

[7:08] and their teaching style was different

[7:12] but they

[7:13] they

[7:14] uh

[7:15] they learned from each other, they they

[7:18] nurtured each other as they as they came

[7:22] forward with their own style of

[7:24] teaching.

[7:29] So this tells us

[7:32] that the divide between Soto and Rinzai

[7:36] was not really firm and solidified.

[7:39] It became so later in Japan.

[7:44] Hongzhi

[7:45] uh lived three Dharma generations before

[7:48] Dogen came to China.

[7:51] Uh so, Hongzhi's years were 1091 to

[7:55] 1157, so 12th century mostly.

[7:58] And uh

[7:59] Dogen came to China in 1223, so he

[8:03] uh he came well after Hongzhi died, but

[8:06] the next century.

[8:09] And Dogen met his teacher Rujing,

[8:14] uh

[8:14] who was the Dharma great-grandson of

[8:17] Hongzhi. So, Hongzhi to Rujing to Dogen

[8:20] was um

[8:22] uh there was a a continuity there.

[8:29] And it was another from from that time,

[8:32] from Rujing and Dogen, it was another

[8:34] 500 years

[8:35] before Hakuin,

[8:37] who was the one who codified codified

[8:40] the

[8:41] um the koans

[8:45] in the Rinzai tradition.

[8:48] And there are three main koan

[8:50] collections that we know, that we know

[8:53] and use. The Blue Cliff Record or the

[8:55] Hekiganroku,

[8:57] the Gateless Gate or the Mumonkan,

[9:00] and the Book of Serenity or the Book of

[9:02] Equanimity, the Shoyoroku.

[9:06] Many of the same koans appear in two out

[9:08] of three

[9:10] uh

[9:11] uh of these uh koan collections,

[9:14] uh but there are um there's a little

[9:16] different emphasis in them.

[9:22] A pattern we can notice in many koans

[9:25] are that the questions are general

[9:28] and the answer specific.

[9:32] I'd like to talk about this observation

[9:34] for a few minutes.

[9:37] If we ask ourselves where we find

[9:40] general and where we find specific, we

[9:44] might see that generalizations

[9:47] are conjured by the mind.

[9:50] They are intellectual.

[9:53] Experiences that are momentary to eyes,

[9:56] ears, nose, tongue, and body

[9:59] are specific.

[10:01] They cannot be other than specific.

[10:05] We don't perceive sounds as

[10:07] generalizations.

[10:09] They are loud or soft, high or low

[10:12] pitch.

[10:14] They have a timbre, etc.

[10:17] We don't sense pain as a generalization.

[10:23] Pain is specific.

[10:25] Characterized by sharp or dull,

[10:28] specifically located, etc.

[10:32] Our mind is a sense.

[10:35] You know, in the Heart Sutra,

[10:38] eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and

[10:40] mind, they're all lined up together.

[10:47] And according to Buddhist teaching, it's

[10:49] one of the senses.

[10:54] In the Upaya translation of the Heart

[10:56] Sutra, we chant realm of eyes

[11:00] to realm of mind consciousness. So,

[11:02] realm of eyes, realm of ears, and so on,

[11:05] realm to realm of mind consciousness.

[11:08] So, the realm of eyes

[11:11] is light waves.

[11:14] That's what we see with our eyes,

[11:17] light.

[11:19] The realm of ears is sound waves.

[11:23] That's what we hear.

[11:27] The realm of mind is synthesis.

[11:32] Mind synthesizes.

[11:36] It collaborates with the other senses to

[11:38] create a perceived functional pattern

[11:43] that we can act on.

[11:46] When I'm working at my desk and I hear

[11:49] the sound of rain on the roof,

[11:52] I look out and I see the day has grown

[11:55] darker.

[11:57] I'm likely to locate my umbrella and

[11:59] place it by my shoes for when I go

[12:02] outside.

[12:05] The information came from my eyes and

[12:07] ears.

[12:08] The action plan came from mind.

[12:14] As we know, mind is a busy bee.

[12:19] It's likely to synthesize this and that

[12:21] to no purpose or to negative purpose,

[12:25] like repetitive self-doubt,

[12:27] clinging to this and that even when

[12:30] there is

[12:31] even when there is a known destructive

[12:33] outcome.

[12:35] Mind is often

[12:37] on high functioning mode

[12:40] >> [clears throat]

[12:40] >> even when there is nothing needed.

[12:44] Meditation instructions often includes

[12:47] or is even defined by quieting the mind.

[13:06] I once read a book called The Moral

[13:07] Animal by Robert [clears throat] Wright.

[13:09] I think it came out in the '90s,

[13:12] in which he talked about camouflage in

[13:15] animals.

[13:18] As you probably know, camouflage is a

[13:20] defense strategy usually for tricking a

[13:22] predator,

[13:24] for example, becoming small, still, and

[13:27] invisible.

[13:29] You know, I'm a [clears throat] retired

[13:30] school teacher, and I know that some

[13:32] kids use this strategy as

[13:35] uh so as not to be noticed in the

[13:37] classroom,

[13:38] to avoid speaking up.

[13:40] This behavior can pursue a person into

[13:43] adulthood.

[13:45] We notice in Dharma discussions that

[13:47] some people always hold back,

[13:50] and some always come forward.

[13:54] Another camouflage strategy is to look

[13:57] like a different animal that has an

[13:59] effective defense.

[14:02] For example, the monarch butterfly is

[14:04] toxic when eaten by birds

[14:07] and other animals. It probably won't

[14:09] kill them, but it gives them a nasty

[14:12] stomach ache, such that they will leave

[14:14] monarchs alone after that, and tell

[14:17] their family and their neighbors to do

[14:19] the same.

[14:22] Several other butterfly species

[14:25] have evolved similar coloring to the

[14:28] monarch, tricking animals into thinking

[14:30] that they are monarchs, and therefore

[14:33] avoid being eaten by birds,

[14:35] at least some at least somewhat.

[14:38] So, basically, the butterfly is lying.

[14:44] Well,

[14:45] according to Wright's speculation, this

[14:48] is a model for human behavior

[14:51] that we all know well.

[14:53] That is, lying.

[14:57] And as it turns out, we aren't such good

[15:00] liars unless we believe the lie we tell

[15:02] ourselves.

[15:05] So, self-deception,

[15:07] according to this book, is an

[15:09] evolutionary survival strategy.

[15:14] I'm not presenting this as a fact. It's

[15:17] I think it's pretty speculative,

[15:19] uh but even so, it's a useful example of

[15:23] what we're up against in our effort to

[15:26] purify the mind.

[15:29] Namely, evolutionary inheritance.

[15:34] Mind,

[15:36] capable of all kinds of wonders, as well

[15:39] as destructive and self-destructive

[15:41] thoughts,

[15:43] then is a major focus in Buddhist

[15:46] practice.

[15:50] There are lots of books about training

[15:52] the mind

[15:54] because our chimeric, fast-moving mind

[15:58] easily goes off the rails.

[16:02] Zen practice,

[16:05] beautifully articulated in the teachings

[16:07] of Joshu,

[16:09] asks us to [clears throat] learn to give

[16:11] mind a break,

[16:14] to allow it to rest.

[16:17] What sound, sight, body feeling without

[16:22] or with very little mental filter.

[16:34] On this So, I mentioned, let's see, a

[16:36] couple pages ago that the um

[16:40] that um

[16:43] mind

[16:44] tends to generalize and

[16:46] the senses are always specific.

[16:49] So, I want to tell you a little story

[16:51] about um

[16:54] me,

[16:55] uh something that happened to me about 6

[16:57] months ago. I've told some of you

[16:59] already.

[17:00] And [clears throat]

[17:01] um

[17:02] and what I learned from it. And it's

[17:04] what I learned from it that I want to

[17:06] actually tell you, but I have to tell

[17:07] you the story. So, [snorts] I like to

[17:09] run a little bit, even though I'm kind

[17:10] of old, I still like to run a little

[17:12] bit. I just love it. So, I was running

[17:16] on a trail near my house, near our house

[17:18] in Muir Beach,

[17:20] and I tripped over a rock and fell on my

[17:22] face. Full

[17:24] full, you know,

[17:26] full, you know,

[17:28] a plan. So, yeah, my son I talked to my

[17:31] son, he said my son said he said Aaron

[17:33] said,

[17:34] "Mom, that's called a face plant."

[17:38] So,

[17:39] anyway, I broke my nose and

[17:42] the next day my eyes were black and

[17:44] purple and magenta and

[17:46] that's when I changed to these purple

[17:48] glasses, by the way.

[17:50] >> [laughter]

[17:53] >> And I, you know, Norman

[17:55] was at our one day sitting at Green

[17:57] Gulch and he came home and took me to

[17:59] the ER and

[18:00] I was just fine, but, you know,

[18:03] it it shakes a person up to fall like

[18:06] that and turn purple and pink.

[18:08] Um

[18:09] but after, you know, after I sort of was

[18:12] recovering and feeling my legs were

[18:14] fine, there was no it was just my face

[18:16] that took the blow.

[18:18] Um so, I thought

[18:21] I really love to run

[18:24] and I cannot fall. I am too old to fall.

[18:28] Old people cannot fall.

[18:30] >> [laughter]

[18:32] >> So, what am I going to do?

[18:33] So, I thought what I'm going to do

[18:36] is I'm going to put my full attention on

[18:40] the bottom of my feet

[18:42] when I run.

[18:44] And I'm going to see how if that helps.

[18:48] So, after that, I mean, I have been

[18:51] doing that practice before, but now I

[18:53] was really motivated because it was like

[18:57] for my safety. So, I I ran a little bit,

[19:01] I ran a little bit

[19:02] I started a little bit and then

[19:04] increased it and walked and just

[19:06] practiced

[19:08] putting my full attention on the bottom

[19:10] of my feet, each step, in contact with

[19:14] the earth, one after the other

[19:17] after the other.

[19:19] And at first, I had to kind of keep

[19:20] reminding myself, "Come on. Come on. You

[19:22] want to You want to do this, right?

[19:23] Right?" So, and then, after a while, it

[19:28] just became such a pleasure.

[19:31] It's a It's a pra- It's a beautiful

[19:33] practice, and I recommend it. It's first

[19:36] of all, I don't know about you, but when

[19:38] I'm outside walking, sometimes I'm

[19:40] flying off into never-never land or

[19:42] thinking about this and that. And it it,

[19:45] you know, puts me where I am.

[19:49] I feel in contact with the whole earth,

[19:52] my body in contact with the earth,

[19:55] and I feel safe.

[19:57] So, it's a practice that I recommend.

[20:00] And I also recommend inventing practices

[20:04] for yourselves like this

[20:07] that fit your life, that fit your need.

[20:10] That, you know, we have mindfulness

[20:14] practice and things like that, but

[20:16] you can get very specific to your body,

[20:20] your need.

[20:22] And um and especially if it if it

[20:27] if it kind of take hold the way my

[20:29] putting my attention on my feet did,

[20:32] that it's just

[20:34] a wonderful meditation.

[20:37] Um I just wanted to tell you that.

[20:42] So,

[20:46] our practice.

[20:48] Um

[20:50] sitting in the body,

[20:51] just breathing

[20:53] without too much thinking.

[20:56] Uh for me, one of the most beautiful

[20:58] expressions of this practice is in uh is

[21:02] in a koan, not of Joshu, uh I'll get to

[21:07] that, But, of Yunmen. Yunmen lived at

[21:10] the end of the Tang Dynasty

[21:12] into what's called the Five Dynasties

[21:14] Ten Kingdoms period. It was about a

[21:16] 50-year period between the Tang and the

[21:19] Song Dynasties in the, uh, 10th century.

[21:23] All right.

[21:25] Yes, 19- 900s.

[21:28] Um,

[21:30] uh, so,

[21:31] uh, here's the koan.

[21:35] Uh,

[21:36] and also we wanted to say that, so

[21:38] Yunmen's, um,

[21:40] uh, years in overlap with Zhaozhou's and

[21:44] they probably knew each other. Zhaozhou

[21:46] was a very famous, uh, Zen teacher in

[21:48] his time.

[21:51] So, this is the koan.

[21:53] A monk asks Yunmen,

[21:55] "How is it when the tree Withers and the

[21:58] leaves fall?"

[22:00] "How is it when the tree

[22:02] withers and the leaves fall?"

[22:07] Now, I said the other day somewhere

[22:09] about the question.

[22:12] Uh,

[22:13] our tendency in our culture, I don't

[22:15] know even know if it's only our culture,

[22:17] but in our culture we want the answer.

[22:19] Hop over the question and get straight

[22:21] to the answer, right?

[22:23] But, in Zen, the question has the

[22:27] energy.

[22:28] The question is energetic.

[22:30] And if you look at the koan questions,

[22:33] they're very, very good. They're very

[22:36] good, very skillful.

[22:38] And the koan survived as much on the

[22:41] questions as on the answers.

[22:45] It calls forth the human moment of

[22:48] wondering,

[22:50] a good question, of longing.

[22:53] The question is what reveals the answer.

[22:58] "How is it that the tree withers and the

[23:01] leaves fall?"

[23:03] And this question also has the sense of

[23:06] an experienced practitioner.

[23:09] And also an aging person. How is it when

[23:12] the

[23:14] tree withers and the leaves fall?

[23:17] Yunmen says, "Body exposed in the golden

[23:21] wind."

[23:24] Body exposed in the golden wind.

[23:30] Wind means breath.

[23:32] The golden wind means breath.

[23:36] Whole body consumed

[23:38] and bathed in breath.

[23:43] There's no implication or analysis here.

[23:46] It's not symbolic.

[23:48] It's just breathing as it is. Exquisite.

[23:53] Experience we have in common

[23:56] for our whole lives.

[24:00] It's a beautiful lyrical and accessible

[24:02] statement of Zen practice.

[24:04] Body exposed in the golden wind.

[24:11] What's my time?

[24:14] >> [snorts]

[24:15] >> I want to share two stories of women in

[24:17] Zen.

[24:18] Um I told you in my first talk that I

[24:20] read that Zhaozhou met with a number of

[24:23] women. Uh we don't have much record of

[24:25] this and as I mentioned in my previous

[24:27] talk, I wonder what happened to the

[24:29] records.

[24:31] But I have two stories uh with women

[24:33] that I'd like to share with you.

[24:37] The first is from James uh Green's book

[24:40] Green's book. The recorded sayings of

[24:42] Zen master Joshu. Joshu is Japanese.

[24:46] Zhaozhou is Chinese. Same guy.

[24:49] So, a nun asked,

[24:52] "Setting aside the explanations given

[24:54] until now, please instruct me.

[25:03] Setting aside the explanations given

[25:06] until now, please instruct me.

[25:09] Not a great question.

[25:11] >> [laughter]

[25:13] >> So, this nun seems to be an adept. She's

[25:16] asking him for direct response. She's

[25:20] asking him to meet her.

[25:23] Joshu shouted,

[25:25] "Burn an iron bottle to ashes."

[25:31] Burn an iron bottle to ashes, you may

[25:33] ask.

[25:34] >> [laughter]

[25:37] >> The nun then went out

[25:40] and poured the water out of an iron

[25:42] bottle and brought it to the master

[25:44] saying, "Please answer."

[25:47] And Joshu laughed.

[25:52] So,

[25:55] the word emptiness in Sanskrit, I'm

[25:57] told, means an empty vessel,

[26:01] like this iron vessel

[26:03] that the that the nun brought back to

[26:06] Joshu.

[26:11] And this empty vessel is open and ready

[26:14] to receive.

[26:16] Which which means that the word the word

[26:20] empty in Sanskrit, which is with a word

[26:24] shunyata in Sanskrit,

[26:27] um

[26:28] ha- does not have the same

[26:31] uh flavor as emptiness in English,

[26:34] which is

[26:35] sad.

[26:37] If I feel empty, you want to you want to

[26:39] give me a hug, right?

[26:41] >> [laughter]

[26:42] >> So, this is a different this is really

[26:44] has a different sense.

[26:46] It an empty

[26:48] uh container that's ready to receive.

[26:51] Huai-yang told me told us

[26:54] that uh empty in Chinese means something

[26:57] similar with open with many many

[27:01] possibilities.

[27:03] And this is what beginners mind means.

[27:06] Suzuki Roshi's beginners mind.

[27:10] Suzuki Roshi said the mind of the

[27:12] beginner in the mind of the beginner

[27:14] there are many possibilities.

[27:16] In the mind of the expert there are few.

[27:20] So the nun is saying

[27:22] by offering this empty iron vessel

[27:25] I am open. I am empty I am an empty

[27:28] vessel not filled up with prior ideas

[27:32] and so on.

[27:34] She's presenting herself that way.

[27:37] And and Joshu

[27:40] found it delightful and laughed.

[27:45] So in this koan

[27:47] you know when Joshu shouts burn an iron

[27:49] bottle to ashes

[27:51] you know

[27:54] uh

[27:57] I think I already said that.

[27:59] Anyway she presents herself emptied and

[28:01] Joshu laughed. She meets Joshu where

[28:04] they both are.

[28:06] So that was a good meeting.

[28:09] Another story

[28:11] with this style of response is this kind

[28:14] of same

[28:15] a very similar kind of response is of

[28:18] Layman Pang

[28:20] and his enlightened daughter Lingzhao.

[28:22] We studied them a few years ago for a

[28:24] practice period. Once

[28:26] when [clears throat] they were walking

[28:27] carrying their wares they crossed a

[28:29] bridge and Layman Pang fell down.

[28:32] He called out to Lingzhao help help.

[28:36] And Lingzhao ran up to him and fell down

[28:38] beside him.

[28:41] Pang said what are you doing?

[28:43] And she said I saw you fall to the

[28:45] ground so I'm helping.

[28:47] >> [laughter]

[28:50] >> And so so both of these stories have the

[28:53] sense, especially the wing towel, you

[28:55] know,

[28:57] how can we help another person?

[28:59] Can we help another person?

[29:01] We can stand by them.

[29:04] You know, both of these both of these

[29:06] koans have the sense of,

[29:08] you know, one and one,

[29:10] like that.

[29:14] Here's a story of Joshu from uh it's

[29:16] case 30 in the Blue Cliff Record.

[29:20] Um

[29:23] No, I'm good time. I'm good.

[29:29] Uh a monk asked Joshu, "Teacher, I've

[29:31] heard that you have personally seen

[29:33] Nanquan. Is that true or not?"

[29:38] Joshu said,

[29:40] uh

[29:42] "Joshu produces big turnips."

[29:49] So,

[29:50] the sense of this story is that everyone

[29:53] knows that Joshu has not only seen

[29:55] Nanquan but lived with him for 40 years.

[29:59] So, he's saying, "Have you seen

[30:00] Nanquan?" Well, it's not it's not a yes

[30:05] or no question, you know. It's a say

[30:08] something say something. Show me some

[30:10] Nanquan, you know. [clears throat]

[30:13] >> [laughter]

[30:15] >> So, the monk is either trying to catch

[30:17] Joshu

[30:19] uh pontificating you know, that

[30:21] pontificating about his famous teacher

[30:23] or the monk himself is just wanting to

[30:26] hear Joshu lose himself in memories of

[30:29] Nanquan.

[30:31] We don't know.

[30:33] But Joshu is having none of it

[30:35] and comes back with a mundane

[30:37] everyday fact that everybody knows.

[30:40] Perhaps has immediate and it perhaps has

[30:43] immediate importance.

[30:45] So, you know,

[30:47] that is about the turnips.

[30:51] These people lived at a time when there

[30:54] was tremendous

[30:56] uh political and therefore economic

[30:58] disruption.

[31:00] Uh

[31:01] um

[31:02] I'll talk about that maybe I don't know

[31:04] next week, but there's there's

[31:07] uh

[31:07] lots of stories that are not in the

[31:11] koans, but you can sort of find out

[31:13] little hints and sometimes the whole

[31:15] story.

[31:17] So, anyway, I was thinking about this,

[31:20] you know, Joshu saying something having

[31:23] Tell us about Nanquan and Joshu saying,

[31:26] "Well,

[31:28] there's these turnips, you know."

[31:30] It's kind of like uh

[31:34] it's modern-day version would be like

[31:37] "I heard that Mick Jagger once visited

[31:40] Whole Foods."

[31:41] "What did he say?"

[31:44] "What did he sing?"

[31:45] >> [laughter]

[31:47] >> And the teacher Randall answers, "Red

[31:50] lentils are on sale this week at Whole

[31:52] Foods."

[31:53] >> [laughter]

[32:01] [laughter]

[32:02] [gasps]

[32:03] >> It's a bit of a slap.

[32:05] Kind of a funny slap. And it makes the

[32:08] point to the monk. Come on back to just

[32:11] this floor, walls, and ceiling. Come on

[32:15] back.

[32:18] So, these stories can be so helpful not

[32:22] in

[32:23] not only in our zazen practice,

[32:25] also in our daily practice.

[32:28] Allow the senses to come forward and the

[32:32] mind to step back.

[32:34] Not completely, of course.

[32:36] Teach yourself to inhabit

[32:39] body more than mind.

[32:42] Teach yourself specifically.

[32:48] And when you can, because we know

[32:51] we we our mind is our superpower.

[32:56] We need and use our mind.

[32:59] But mind needs a break sometimes.

[33:07] So,

[33:08] for example,

[33:10] the pauses for mind to rest.

[33:13] When we walk from place to place, when

[33:15] we eat, when we clean up, when we bathe

[33:19] our bodies, when we brush our teeth.

[33:23] Of course, everything we do includes

[33:25] mind.

[33:26] So, I'm talking about the extra mental

[33:28] activity, the scheming, the

[33:31] anticipating, the imagining what the

[33:33] future will be, reviewing and reviewing

[33:36] again past events, past mistakes.

[33:41] Those mental activities have their place

[33:43] and time.

[33:45] But we tend to be on overdrive,

[33:47] engaged in mental activity out of habit

[33:50] or nervous anticipation

[33:54] that we can learn to let go

[33:57] by placing our attention elsewhere.

[34:00] Not by rejecting mind.

[34:03] By placing our attention elsewhere.

[34:05] Our breath, our feet, our neck, our

[34:09] back.

[34:11] Through this practice, we can support

[34:13] and encourage each other.

[34:17] We're doing this together.

[34:20] There's no other way than doing this

[34:22] together.

[34:24] It is our gift to each other

[34:27] and our gift to the people and places we

[34:29] will return to when when we leave this

[34:33] precious practice.

[34:37] Thank you very much.

[34:50] >> We have five more minutes if you'd like.

[34:53] >> What?

[34:54] >> Did you say do we have five more

[34:55] minutes?

[34:55] >> I did.

[34:56] >> Yeah, we do.

[34:57] If you'd like.

[35:02] >> Question if there's a question, we could

[35:05] we could hear a question.

[35:16] Yes.

[35:19] Oh.

[35:21] >> Hi.

[35:22] Um thank you for being here.

[35:25] Um this is my first time and how did you

[35:28] find this path at 19?

[35:34] >> Kind of a long answer.

[35:36] Let me see if I can do the short

[35:38] version.

[35:39] Well, I actually found this path when I

[35:41] was 14.

[35:43] I started reading about Zen when I was

[35:45] 14.

[35:47] And uh to make a long story short,

[35:50] I became aware around that time

[35:54] that my father

[35:56] was building anti-ballistic missiles for

[35:59] his career.

[36:00] His big His older brother was in the CIA

[36:04] and this was during the Vietnam War.

[36:06] And the eldest brother was a nuclear

[36:08] physicist who worked on the Manhattan

[36:09] Project.

[36:11] And these were really nice people, these

[36:14] guys, these my uncles and my dad, really

[36:17] sweeties.

[36:18] But I I looked at their world and I

[36:21] looked at their work

[36:23] and I knew I wanted nothing to do with

[36:25] that.

[36:27] That's That's the short answer. So, I I

[36:30] um

[36:31] I started reading books about Zen, and I

[36:34] just kind of knew, all right.

[36:36] That's what I want.

[36:47] That may be

[36:49] Do you have a question? We have a couple

[36:50] minutes.

[36:57] I think I think

[37:01] >> Um so, I actually tried that practice

[37:04] with the running cuz I also love

[37:06] running. And

[37:09] I found it a little bit like hard to

[37:11] enjoy running when I was always thinking

[37:14] about my feet. So, I'm just curious how

[37:16] >> [laughter]

[37:17] >> how it evolved for you um cuz you seem

[37:19] to enjoy the practice.

[37:21] >> Yes. Um it took a little while. I hung

[37:24] in there because for me, it was a matter

[37:26] of being able to keep running or not. I

[37:28] It was a matter of my safety. So, I

[37:30] wasn't It wasn't like an option, you

[37:32] know. So, I was just really determined

[37:34] to keep my feet on the ground

[37:37] and my face not so much on the ground.

[37:40] >> [laughter]

[37:42] >> And so, uh and and and then after doing

[37:46] that, the joy

[37:48] uh

[37:49] arose later, you know. I had to kind of

[37:51] do it for a while.

[37:59] Maybe that's our time.

[38:00] >> Yeah.

Upaya Zen Center
ArtistUpaya Zen Center

Watch more from Upaya Zen Center on YouTube.

View profileWebsite
Explore Topics
Koan-practiceZen-historySoto-rinzaiHakuinHeart-sutra

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

In this talk, Sensei Sokaku Kathie Fischer explains that the two schools separated gradually, mainly in Japan, and that the divide was not firm at first. Rinzai is associated with the codified koan curriculum that Hakuin shaped in the eighteenth century, while Soto is associated with teachers like Hongzhi, who taught silent illumination. She stresses that the two lineages' figures often learned from one another.
A koan is a question or case used in Zen practice, drawn from the teachings of earlier masters. Sensei Fischer notes that many koans come from the Tang Dynasty and were collected in works such as the Blue Cliff Record, the Gateless Gate, and the Book of Serenity. In the talk she observes that koan questions tend to be general while the answers are specific.
Sensei Fischer argues that generalizations are produced by the intellect, while direct experience through the senses is always specific. She offers examples such as sound, which is loud or soft with a particular timbre, and pain, which is sharp or dull and located in one place. A koan answer points to that immediate, concrete experience rather than an abstraction.
In the Heart Sutra, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind are listed together, and Buddhist teaching counts the mind as one of the senses. Sensei Fischer explains that the realm of mind is synthesis, collaborating with the other senses to produce a functional pattern we can act on. The Upaya translation of the sutra, she notes, is chanted as 'realm of eyes' through 'realm of mind consciousness.'
Sensei Fischer draws on Robert Wright's book The Moral Animal to describe camouflage as a defense strategy, such as becoming small, still, and invisible to avoid a predator. She compares it to students who avoid being noticed or speaking up, and to people in Dharma discussions who always hold back. The metaphor points to the habits we use to hide from the specific moment.
Hakuin was a beloved and highly acclaimed Japanese Rinzai Zen teacher who lived from 1686 to 1769, according to this talk. Sensei Fischer recounts a story in which a young woman falsely accused him of fathering her child; he answered only 'Oh, is that so?' and cared for the baby, and he later gave the same reply when the truth came out. He never defended himself or blamed anyone else.
Upaya is a Buddhist residential contemplative community in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and its video description invites viewers to join daily zazen on Zoom and to explore its weekly Dharma talks, Wisdom Library, and full programs schedule on upaya.org. The center also accepts dana, or generosity, for Dharma talks through its giving page.

Continue Reading

More from Upaya

View All
Why Chan Masters Shouted: Words, Silence and Direct Experience
Inspire

Why Chan Masters Shouted: Words, Silence and Direct Experience

A Santa Fe Zen teacher opens a fall practice period by asking why the Chan masters shouted at students. Her answer turns on the mind that lo…

1 min read
Morning Zazen: A Daily Practice of Zen Meditation
Inspire

Morning Zazen: A Daily Practice of Zen Meditation

An introduction to zazen, the foundational Zen meditation practice offered daily at Upaya Zen Center in Santa Fe. Learn how sitting practice…

1 min read
Heart Sutra Meditation: Buddhist Wisdom for Inner Healing
Inspire

Heart Sutra Meditation: Buddhist Wisdom for Inner Healing

Explore a guided meditation rooted in the Heart Sutra's liberating teachings, designed to cultivate compassion and dissolve ego-based suffer…

1 min read
Speak Up or Stay Silent? A Guru Nanak Guide to Impact
Inspire

Speak Up or Stay Silent? A Guru Nanak Guide to Impact

Should you speak up or stay silent? SathPaal Singh's Guru Nanak-rooted test asks where impact lies, not who is right, from workplace clashes…

1 min read

Keep exploring

Continue your journey

More wisdom and gatherings from across the BrightStar directory.

More Articles

Browse the full library of teachings, interviews, and guides.

Back to all articles →

Teachers & Artists

Explore the lineages, musicians, and guides of the conscious world.

Explore artists →

Find an Event

Kirtan, retreats, sound baths, breathwork, festivals — happening soon.

Browse events →