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Inspire

How to Stop Betraying Your Inner Voice: Truth, Rest, Creativity

Know Thyself
Know Thyself
Oct 6, 2026
10 min de lecture
À regarder · 5

Somewhere in the first hour of a conversation that runs past two and a quarter hours, Elizabeth Gilbert stops talking about books and starts talking about the middle of the night. It is the hour when the part of her that wants someone else to save her begins to wail, and her answer to that part, repeated across the whole conversation, is a promise to stay with it rather than flee. That single decision sits underneath everything she describes: a six-month sabbatical in which she deliberately made nothing, a daily practice of asking a higher power what to do next, years of recovery from sex and love addiction, and the story of loving her partner Rayya through terminal cancer and active drug addiction. What follows is an attempt to explain the ideas in that talk, which are more practical than they sound, and more painful than the warm tone suggests.

Lecture · 6 sections

What happens when a person who never stops finally stops?

Gilbert is candid that the sabbatical was not a holiday she enjoyed in the moment. She described the first month as a kind of withdrawal. "I felt depressed and scared," she said. "Like that was the main thing that I felt was fear." She read that fear as evidence, not as a verdict on the break itself: "that's such a good indication that the way I had been living had some sort of manic addictive quality to it. That if it's taken away, it's frightening."

The anxieties she listed are the ones any working creative will recognize. She named "purpose anxiety" and "relevance anxiety," and asked the question that drives so much of a public life: will people forget that I exist if I am not out there knocking on their doors? Then she added the sharper one. If she said no to an invitation, would that be the last opportunity that thing would ever offer? Her answer was not to argue herself out of these questions but to let the days be empty long enough for them to lose their urgency.

The rest of the sabbatical was almost comically simple. She slept in. She walked her dog. She went along with whatever friends wanted to do on a given day and drove people to airports because she had the time. She grew up on a farm, she said, in a high-performance family and culture, and had woken at 4:30 or 5:00 every morning "like I got shot out of a can and already feeling like I was behind." Sleeping until ten felt, at first, like a violation. It also, she reported, brought healing for physical problems she had been carrying. And then came the sentence that gives the whole segment its punch: "I didn't write. I didn't create. I didn't generate. and the world didn't fall off its axis and birds didn't drop dead out of the skies and rivers didn't run backwards."

What she is pointing at is the bug most driven people carry, the one that ties their worth to continual output. "Who are we if we're not outputting?" she asked. The sabbatical was not a rejection of creativity. It was a test of whether her identity could survive without it.

How does two-way prayer guide daily choices?

The sabbatical was not Gilbert's idea, at least not in the way most people would imagine a career decision. She told her host that she takes her direction from a higher power she calls God, and that she does this every morning in a practice she calls two-way prayer. "I ask on the page, first thing in the morning, what do you want me to do and who do you want me to be today and where do you want me to go?" She writes the answer down, and then she does what the answer says.

About two years before the conversation, she said, that voice began to change the instructions. "We have to plan for you to stop," it told her. You have been going hard forever and never paused, it said, and if you do not stop, something will stop you, "and you won't like how that feels." So she began to orchestrate it, and the planning took most of a year and a half. Her metaphor for the problem is worth keeping: a life, she said, is like an aircraft carrier moving on a trajectory. You cannot stop it on a dime. You have to slow it down deliberately.

The practice matters because it changes where authority sits. Gilbert is not asking a friend, an agent, or a reading of the market what to do. She is making a daily, written, checkable relationship with an inner voice she believes is larger than her ego, and then testing whether it holds up. The sabbatical was the most dramatic answer she has given to that question so far. It was also, she was clear, something she enforced firmly. Offers came in, and people wanted her to say yes, and she kept saying no.

Why does telling the truth set you free from feeling trapped?

The most affecting part of the conversation concerns Rayya. Gilbert described a relationship that began in secret: "we were secretly in love with each other," she said, before Rayya was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic and liver cancer and given six months to live. Rayya then became addicted to cocaine. "But God's got jokes," Gilbert said. "She lived actually for 18 months." During that time Gilbert was caring for a hospice patient who was also a drug user, and she put the trap plainly: "She was doing her drug, but she was my drug. There's no way out."

Then she reversed the claim. "There's no way out. It turns out there always is, and that is to tell the truth." In her account, feeling trapped many times in her life had one consistent exit. It was the truth she least wanted to say, and specifically the truth about where she was lying, hiding, or manipulating. Naming those places was what loosened the grip. This is the heart of what she means when she invokes the phrase "know thyself." It is not a self-improvement slogan. It is a practice of looking at your own concealment until you can see it clearly enough to stop running it.

She is also careful about what self-excavation finds. "You find a lot of darkness, but you find a lot of light, too." The honesty is not meant to be a punishment. It is a way of discovering what is actually inside you, including the parts that have been doing harm.

What does recovery teach about scarcity in love?

Gilbert has spoken openly about her recovery from sex and love addiction, and the talk connects that recovery directly to scarcity. "We all start with this beautiful innocence and these beautiful unmet needs," she said. "But they can make us into really dangerous people who hurt people." Her own addiction, she said, "has done me in so many times." At its worst, the craving was a will that said: I want this person at any cost. And the cost, she suggested, came due.

Her recovery taught her that no partner, payoff, or praise could fill the sense of scarcity around love. The work was not to find the right person but to change how she related to the part of her that kept reaching. She described sitting with that part of herself at three in the morning, when it wailed for someone else, and promising to stay anyway. Over time, she said, that repeated promise built a secure attachment to herself, one no other person could supply. The practical lesson is uncomfortable and precise. You cannot outsource your sense of safety to a relationship and expect it to hold, but you can become the reliable presence for your own distress.

"I will never abandon you. I will never turn my back on you."

Elizabeth Gilbert, in her conversation on the Know Thyself podcast (2026)

Does everyone have to create, or are we all just invited?

The third thread of the talk is about creativity, and here Gilbert makes a distinction that is easy to miss. She no longer believes everyone must create. She does believe everyone is invited. The difference matters because so much cultural talk about creativity turns into a demand, and a demand is precisely what makes people quit. She described the verdict many people receive early: someone tells you you are not a good singer, that this person is the dancer and you are not, that this one is the writer and you are not. "Creativity is taken from you," she said. "And for some people, that's the end of the story."

Her counter is not a guarantee of success, which she says can never be promised. It is a promise about what happens to the person doing the work. "I can absolutely promise you that if you sit down and tell that story that is within you, you will be a different person," she said. Then she turned it into a question worth carrying: "Don't you kind of want to know who you'll be if you actually do that thing?" The point is less about publishing a book than about becoming someone through the act of telling.

The conversation also touches on the question many creators are now asking about artificial intelligence. The episode's own description suggests that as AI grows more capable, the lasting reason to make things may be the oldest one: that making things is pleasing. Gilbert's broader stance, as heard in this talk, supports that reading. The reward is not only in the product or the applause. It is in the act of telling the story that lives inside you, and in the person who emerges because you did.

Where to go from here

If you want the full texture of this conversation, the most useful thing to do is listen to the whole thing rather than skimming the highlights, because the ideas accrue. Gilbert's sabbatical, her two-way prayer, her account of living with addiction and loss, and her argument about creativity are all tied to one question: what do you do when the thing you have been using to feel worthy stops working? Her answer is consistent. Stop the machine if you can. Ask a voice larger than your ego what it wants. Tell the truth about where you have been hiding. Stay with the part of you that wails at three in the morning, and keep your promise.

For a practical starting point, try a few mornings of her method in small form. Write one question to whatever you call the deeper part of yourself, ask what it wants you to do that day, and record the answer without judging it. Then notice where you are lying or hiding, even in small ways, and name one of those places plainly. You do not need a sabbatical to begin. You need to be willing to find out who you are when nothing is being produced.

To explore more conversations in this vein, the Know Thyself collective maintains a space for returning home to yourself at knowthyselfcollective.com.

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Transcript

[0:00] We all start with this beautiful

[0:01] innocence and these beautiful unmet

[0:03] needs. But they can make us into really

[0:06] dangerous people who hurt people. Sex

[0:08] and love addiction which has done me in

[0:10] so many times. My will [music] was like,

[0:12] I want this person at any cost. And

[0:14] God's like, okay, at any cost, go. Here

[0:17] comes the cost. So, what happened with

[0:19] you and Rehea?

[0:20] >> Um, we were secretly in love with each

[0:22] other, but she was diagnosed with

[0:24] terminal [music] pancreatic and liver

[0:25] cancer and given 6 months to live. And

[0:27] so she got addicted to [music] cocaine.

[0:30] But God's got jokes. She lived actually

[0:31] for 18 months. [laughter]

[0:34] And then now you're a hospice patient

[0:35] who's also a drug addict. And then she

[0:38] died. She was doing her drug, but she

[0:40] was my drug. There's no way out. It

[0:43] turns out there always is, and that

[0:45] [music] is to tell the truth. For me,

[0:47] that's what it means. Know thyself. I

[0:49] will never abandon you. I will never

[0:50] turn my back on you. You excavate

[0:52] yourself, you find a lot in there. You

[0:54] find a lot of darkness, but you find a

[0:55] lot of light, too. What if somebody told

[0:57] you you're not a good singer, this

[0:59] person is a good dancer, you are not.

[1:00] This one is the writer, [music] you are

[1:01] not. Creativity is taken from you. And

[1:03] for some people, that's the end of the

[1:05] story. I can absolutely promise you that

[1:07] if you sit down and tell that story that

[1:09] is within you, you will be a different

[1:11] person. Don't you kind of want to know

[1:13] who you'll be if [music] you actually do

[1:14] that thing?

[1:15] >> And if somebody wanted to do it tomorrow

[1:16] morning, what would they do? Oh, well,

[1:19] yeah, you got it.

[1:25] >> Hey everyone, welcome back to the Know

[1:27] Thyself podcast. Our guest today is one

[1:29] of the world's most decorated authors,

[1:32] most notably Eat, Pray, Love, Big Magic.

[1:35] Her memoir, All the Way to the River,

[1:37] amongst many others. She is somebody

[1:39] that is incredibly inspiring to me. the

[1:41] way that she lives her life

[1:42] courageously, authentically,

[1:44] shares how to unleash her creativity,

[1:47] and it's been a long time coming. I'm so

[1:50] excited to have you, Liz Gilbert. Thank

[1:51] you for being here.

[1:52] >> Hi. I'm so happy to be here. [laughter]

[1:54] >> We did it.

[1:55] >> We did it.

[1:56] >> Yeah.

[1:56] >> You made it.

[1:57] >> We made this occur.

[1:58] >> Yes. [laughter]

[2:00] >> Or it didn't stop it from occurring.

[2:02] >> I'm honored that [clears throat] uh I'm

[2:03] one of your first back off of your

[2:05] sbatical that you're just coming off of.

[2:07] >> Yeah. Actually, this is the first thing

[2:10] I've done public facing in six months.

[2:12] I've after the first time in my life

[2:14] I've ever like dropped working and

[2:18] talking and producing and even creating.

[2:20] So, so I don't know if I remember how to

[2:23] do this. Let's see. We might just have

[2:24] to have a normal human conversation.

[2:27] [laughter]

[2:27] >> We can always just Yeah, let's just plan

[2:28] on that. Um, what was the what was the

[2:31] impetus for the sobatical?

[2:33] >> Um, oh well, let's just get right into

[2:35] it. Um, I

[2:38] uh I take my direction from a higher

[2:41] power who I call God. Um, I do that

[2:44] every day in this practice that I've

[2:46] done for years that's called two-way

[2:48] prayer where I um ask an on the page

[2:54] like first thing in the morning, what

[2:56] what do you want me to do and who do you

[2:58] want me to be today and where do you

[2:59] want me to go? And um and then I just

[3:02] write the answer and then that's what I

[3:04] do. Um, and that's been like that for

[3:07] quite a while now. And about

[3:10] two years ago, um, that voice started

[3:13] saying, "We have to plan for you to

[3:15] stop. Um, you've been going really hard

[3:19] forever, and you've never stopped, and

[3:22] you've never paused, and if you don't

[3:24] stop, something's going to stop you, and

[3:27] you won't like how that feels. So, um,

[3:30] let's orchestrate that." and and it's

[3:32] going to take a minute to plan because

[3:35] you know like a life is sort of like a

[3:37] it's like an aircraft carrier. It's like

[3:39] moving at this trajectory. You can't

[3:41] just stop it on a dime. Like you've got

[3:42] to sort of slow it down. So I spent a

[3:45] year and a half we that voice told me to

[3:48] set the dates um from the beginning of

[3:50] March till the beginning of September of

[3:52] this year and just start telling

[3:54] everybody in my life um I'm out. Like

[3:56] don't don't plan anything. Don't count

[3:58] on me for anything. And I've been

[4:00] enforcing it with just ferociously um

[4:04] because things arise that are really

[4:06] tempting and um or that other people

[4:08] really want me to do and I've just been

[4:10] really firm like absolutely not. Um and

[4:14] and also part of the instruction for

[4:16] that sbatical was uh and I think this is

[4:19] interesting because when I told people I

[4:21] was on sabbatical, the first question

[4:22] everybody asked me was what what are you

[4:23] going to do? And that's the culture that

[4:26] we live in and the times that we live

[4:27] in. And the whole point of a sobatical

[4:29] is that you don't you don't do anything.

[4:32] [laughter and gasps] And um and a friend

[4:33] of mine was like, "You're never going to

[4:34] be able to do that. You're going to come

[4:35] out with a novel written by the end of

[4:37] it." But in fact, I've disciplined

[4:39] myself to not create and to not produce

[4:42] and to not generate anything, but to

[4:45] just go every day where the day took me.

[4:48] >> And um and no traveling either, no big

[4:50] adventures, no learning how to master

[4:52] another language, no getting in the best

[4:53] shape of your life. like all of those

[4:55] things that we would fill if you were

[4:57] given a vacuum typically we would fill

[4:59] it with that. Um, so I've been sleeping

[5:02] in, um, walking my dog a lot, going to

[5:07] do whatever my friends want to do on any

[5:09] given day, driving people to the airport

[5:10] cuz I have time, [laughter]

[5:12] just being available to life. And it's

[5:15] been incredible. And as reluctant as I

[5:18] am to come out of it, it's nice to be

[5:20] here today talking to you, but um, it's

[5:22] a little hard to to think about

[5:24] rejoining

[5:26] the world of any kind of purpose after

[5:28] this. It's been really nice. Hopefully

[5:30] this is a smooth

[5:31] >> I know this is a good one. This is a

[5:33] good [laughter] one. This is I can tell

[5:34] this isn't going to be too jarring.

[5:36] >> Yeah, we'll keep a warm inviting

[5:38] entrance back into the busy [laughter]

[5:40] heights of

[5:41] >> the social space. I've taken very short

[5:44] stints like that. I have friends that

[5:45] have taken longer ones and have heard

[5:47] and felt that it's surprisingly hard to

[5:50] do nothing. Has Was that Did that come

[5:52] up for you? Was it challenging?

[5:54] >> Yeah, I kind of felt like I went through

[5:55] withdrawal for the first month. I felt

[5:57] depressed and scared. Um, I felt scared.

[6:01] Like that was the main thing that I felt

[6:02] was fear. And that's such a good

[6:05] indication

[6:07] that the way I had been living had some

[6:09] sort of manic addictive quality to it.

[6:11] That if it's taken away, it's

[6:14] frightening. Um, I felt purpose anxiety.

[6:18] Um, I felt relevance anxiety. Um,

[6:23] am I gonna still will people forget that

[6:25] I exist if I'm not out there

[6:30] beating beating down their doors telling

[6:32] them that I'm madder? [laughter]

[6:35] You know, like if I like if I say no,

[6:37] like I mean, you may know this feeling

[6:38] too. If I say no to something, will that

[6:41] be the last opportunity that that thing

[6:43] ever exists? Um, will people be

[6:45] offended? Um, what am I going to do?

[6:48] like literally what am I going to do

[6:50] with my days? And then I kind of eased

[6:54] into it and I learned how to do some

[6:56] things that I didn't know how to do. For

[6:57] instance, I now know how to sleep in. Um

[7:00] I grew up on a farm and I grew up in a

[7:02] really high performance family and in a

[7:04] really high performance culture and I

[7:08] have typically woken up every day at

[7:10] 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning like I got

[7:12] shot out of a can and already feeling

[7:14] like I was behind. And so now like I'm

[7:17] sleeping until like 10:00 in the

[7:19] morning. I'm like what the what?

[7:21] [laughter]

[7:22] Like half the day is gone. All the

[7:24] important stuff has been done. But it's

[7:26] been really restful. Um I ended up

[7:29] getting a lot of healing from some

[7:30] physical stuff I had going on. Um

[7:34] >> yeah.

[7:34] >> Wow.

[7:35] >> And I didn't write. I didn't create. I

[7:37] didn't generate. and the world didn't

[7:40] fall off its axis and birds didn't drop

[7:42] dead out of the skies and rivers didn't

[7:44] run backwards and um I think I need more

[7:48] of this.

[7:51] I think so many people can relate with

[7:53] that like bug we have in our head that

[7:55] ties our worth with continual

[7:56] improvement in performance like words

[7:59] cog and

[8:00] >> who are we if we're not outputting

[8:02] something of externally verifiable

[8:05] measurable value in the marketplace you

[8:08] know

[8:09] >> and if you do stop you have to stop in

[8:11] order to improve yourself in some way

[8:14] >> so go learn how to be a better meditator

[8:16] or you know like yeah or like train for

[8:20] a triathlon

[8:21] Um, but what if you don't have to do

[8:24] that? [laughter]

[8:25] >> Yeah. If you don't have a project, then

[8:27] you become the project.

[8:30] >> I uh I'm curious about the texture of

[8:32] that voice and that practice that you

[8:34] feel like you get guidance from that you

[8:35] call God that we all have different

[8:37] names for.

[8:38] >> Yeah.

[8:38] >> That

[8:39] >> has a bigger intelligence that we can't

[8:42] always track in the moment of where

[8:43] we're being guided. Yeah.

[8:44] >> Um, it feels like for me as I read your

[8:48] work and I look more into your story,

[8:51] you've had these various moments where

[8:53] you've made a practice of creating space

[8:55] to hear something bigger than your own

[8:57] sort of ego, a comparative of what you

[8:59] want, but like what does kind of life

[9:01] want of you?

[9:02] >> Yeah.

[9:02] >> What have you learned about what happens

[9:05] when you listen to that voice years down

[9:07] the road?

[9:09] the more I and I I want to be careful of

[9:12] my language here. I also really want to

[9:15] be careful about

[9:18] what I mean and don't mean when I say

[9:19] God. Um because that is a word that is

[9:23] very traumatizing for some people. um

[9:27] especially people who grew up in high

[9:28] demand religions that they maybe barely

[9:31] made it out of with their lives or who

[9:34] experienced abuse or who were abused by

[9:36] that word or threatened by that word. Um

[9:40] so I always want to say like if you

[9:43] don't believe in God, whatever God you

[9:44] don't believe in, I also don't believe

[9:46] in that God. So we're good [laughter]

[9:48] and I'm good with whatever God you do

[9:50] believe in. Um but but I don't know what

[9:52] else to call it. Um, and that word

[9:55] doesn't feel traumatizing for me. That

[9:57] word feels warm and nourishing and

[9:59] loving and present for me. And it isn't

[10:02] any measure in any way the God that I

[10:06] was taught about when I was a kid. Um,

[10:09] it's much more amusing and amused. Um,

[10:13] allowing like I don't have a commanding

[10:16] God. I have a God who lets me do

[10:18] whatever I want often to my own peril.

[10:21] It's like, "Oh, you want to do that?

[10:23] Okay, you can do that. Let's see how

[10:24] that goes. [laughter]

[10:26] And most most of my life has been like,

[10:27] what happens if I stick this fork in the

[10:29] in the, you know, outlet? Like that's

[10:32] and God's like, try it. You know, see

[10:34] what happens when you put your fork in

[10:35] that outlet. Like whatever that outlet

[10:36] might be or whatever the fork may be.

[10:38] And um and

[10:40] so I don't have a punishing, commanding,

[10:43] forbidding God. I have a God who wants

[10:46] me to have every kind of experience. Um,

[10:49] but who also doesn't want me to suffer

[10:51] and has direction for me to minimize

[10:54] suffering? And I find that the more I'm

[10:57] in alignment with that guidance,

[11:00] the more I don't do what I'm it's

[11:02] suggested that I not do, and the more I

[11:04] do do what is suggested that I do, the

[11:08] the suffering drops away, the anxiety

[11:10] drops away, the neurosis drops away, and

[11:12] the terrible consequences drop away. So,

[11:15] it's almost like I think of this God

[11:17] that I listen to as kind of like this

[11:19] lantern holder who's just sort of one

[11:21] step ahead of me saying, "I would

[11:23] suggest that you put your foot here

[11:24] >> and I would suggest that you put your

[11:26] foot there and I would suggest that you

[11:28] I would suggest you don't go in that

[11:30] direction. I would suggest you go a

[11:32] little more in this direction." And when

[11:34] I one of the hardest things for me to

[11:36] put down as I was getting sober and

[11:39] learning how to trust that voice more

[11:40] was um it's funny you made a psilocym

[11:43] psilocybum joke when we came in like was

[11:46] IA mushrooms you know all psychedelics I

[11:49] I love that [ __ ] and and I was like

[11:52] surely I don't have to put this down you

[11:54] know when I get sober and and I would

[11:56] negotiate with that voice and that voice

[11:58] said um no you don't have to um you can

[12:02] do whatever you want. I've always let

[12:03] you do whatever you want, but you're

[12:05] asking me what's going to be best for

[12:07] you. And my suggestion, loving you and

[12:10] knowing you, is that you see what

[12:12] happens if you don't alter yourself at

[12:15] all and just come with me and let's do

[12:17] life with no with no alteration to it.

[12:22] >> Um, I want you to learn how to be here

[12:24] in this reality, in this in this video

[12:27] game. um rather than constantly trying

[12:29] to get out of it. And but you can do it

[12:33] if but you don't have you don't have to

[12:34] listen to me, you know. Um and I know

[12:37] well enough to know it's not going to go

[12:39] well for me if

[12:41] I don't listen to that. There's some

[12:44] reason that that voice is saying maybe

[12:46] don't do that. And so the more that the

[12:50] more that I am in alignment,

[12:53] like other things drop, you know, like

[12:56] anxiet other anxieties that I thought I

[12:58] would carry forever drop. Shame that I

[13:00] thought I would carry forever drops.

[13:02] Dependencies that I thought I would

[13:04] never be able to get rid of are suddenly

[13:05] like taken and the path just gets

[13:08] lighter and lighter and lighter. So um

[13:11] yeah, there's no reason to not go that

[13:14] way that I can see.

[13:18] How does it show up for you? I know you

[13:20] obviously have a devotional kind of

[13:22] writing practice. Uh does it appear to

[13:26] you in the same way your the own your

[13:28] own voice in your head appears to you?

[13:31] >> It's it's filtered through my brain. So,

[13:34] but it's not my voice. Um, and and I

[13:41] think interestingly and tellingly, I

[13:43] would not be able to even describe what

[13:46] that voice is. Um, I just know that it's

[13:50] God, [laughter]

[13:51] you know, like be still and know that I

[13:53] am God. Like, I just it so obviously is.

[13:56] Um, and and what I think is interesting

[13:58] is that I've

[14:00] I've loved God for a long time and I've

[14:02] believed in God for a long time. I think

[14:04] I always did, even growing up in a

[14:05] family that didn't. Um, but I never

[14:08] trusted God. I always felt like I was on

[14:11] my own here in the universe. And and now

[14:15] there's this like deeper trust. Um, but

[14:21] the voice is

[14:27] it's just for me,

[14:30] you know. It's just for me. And I think

[14:32] I can tell that it is that and not my

[14:35] will because of the instant release of

[14:38] anxiety.

[14:40] >> It's um like, oh, we're home.

[14:44] You know, literally like, oh, thank God.

[14:46] Okay, I don't have to I don't have to

[14:49] know what to do. I don't have to plan. I

[14:51] don't have to strategize. Um I don't

[14:53] have to hustle. I don't have to be

[14:55] vigilant. Um I'm good. I'm just I call

[15:00] it the warm vanilla pudding hum of

[15:02] well-being. [laughter]

[15:04] No, no big sharp highs. I can't do highs

[15:07] anymore because I can't take the

[15:08] comedowns anymore.

[15:09] >> So, no big sharp highs, no big huge

[15:12] dips. Just like

[15:13] >> warm vanilla.

[15:14] >> Warm vanilla pudding in the belly. It's

[15:16] good. It's just like and that's like I

[15:19] just want to I always think of um Keith

[15:22] Richards saying like you can keep the

[15:24] rock, I'll take the roll, you know? Like

[15:26] that's sort of how I feel like I don't

[15:27] want the rock anymore. It's just like

[15:29] I'm in the role. I'm in the role. And I

[15:30] think that's

[15:32] the only way that it can work for me

[15:36] that I can be in the role

[15:37] >> cuz my mind will want to rock out.

[15:41] [laughter]

[15:42] But it doesn't end well when it does. So

[15:45] it's just a notebook. It's just a book.

[15:47] But I used to think that God was like

[15:49] unreachable and unknowable, you know,

[15:52] just I I believed in the concept of God

[15:54] and I love the concept. I'm like, you

[15:55] could never know God and God's like I'm

[15:58] literally right here. Like nothing is

[16:00] more knowable than me. Ask me anything,

[16:03] you know? Like let's let's talk. Like

[16:05] there's there's no barrier here. We're

[16:08] good. Like I'm not abstract and I'm not

[16:11] mysterious. I'm very clear and I'm very

[16:13] straightforward. All you have to do is

[16:15] ask um with an open mind and I'll tell

[16:17] you. And that's like, "Oh, I thought you

[16:20] were a mystery." God's like, "No, you're

[16:21] a mystery to yourself. [laughter]

[16:24] I'm the least mysterious thing in the

[16:26] entire universe. [laughter]

[16:28] You make mystery where there isn't any."

[16:31] >> You know, that's what my ego does.

[16:33] [laughter]

[16:34] What's been your journey from that voice

[16:37] strengthening that connection to hearing

[16:39] that in in a moment of practice to

[16:42] seeing that throughout your day in all

[16:43] your relationships and and um as opposed

[16:46] to a singular practice in the morning?

[16:48] Has that been an evolution? Has what

[16:51] does that look like?

[16:52] >> It's an Yeah, it's been an evolution to

[16:54] where more it's more I can access that.

[16:58] Um, I can just do like a little spot

[17:00] check and be like, "Yes, no, maybe."

[17:03] >> Red light, green light, yellow light.

[17:05] Um, and and even

[17:10] I don't know, like even an example, I

[17:11] was my dog. I have a little dog who

[17:14] we're very bonded and she hardly ever

[17:16] has to be on her leash. She's always

[17:18] just right at my feet. And um, and I the

[17:23] other day was walking and lost her,

[17:24] which is very rare. And and it was only

[17:27] for five or 10 minutes, but you know,

[17:29] instant panic, coyotes, bears,

[17:33] dognappers,

[17:35] you know, trap, car accident, like

[17:37] where, you know, and and I just did a

[17:39] little and God's like, she's fine, you

[17:42] know, she's fine. She's okay. She's

[17:43] coming back. Just give her a minute, you

[17:45] know, and she came back. Um, and I So,

[17:48] it lowered my anx like it's like really?

[17:50] Yeah, she's she's okay. So there's or if

[17:52] like I'm in a car with somebody who's

[17:53] driving dangerously, I'm like, "Are we

[17:56] are we good?" [laughter]

[17:57] Like, "Yeah, you're all right. You're

[17:59] all right. They're going a little fast,

[18:00] but they're all right." Um, and then

[18:02] other times it'll be like, "No." Um, I

[18:05] was kayaking with a friend of mine in

[18:07] Panama who's not a very strong swimmer,

[18:09] and we were out on open water, and it

[18:11] was really beautiful, and all of a

[18:12] sudden that voice just said, "Turn

[18:15] around now. Um, that's enough. You've

[18:17] come out. You know, you're deep enough

[18:19] out in the water. Go back." And I don't

[18:20] even need to know or want to know what

[18:22] would have happened [laughter]

[18:24] had I continued. But I trust I'm like

[18:27] we're we're going back now. Um why? Cuz

[18:31] cuz we are cuz that's enough. [laughter]

[18:34] >> Enough excited.

[18:35] >> Yeah. Cuz we are. Let's go wrap it up.

[18:39] [laughter]

[18:40] So yeah, it's just it's and it's not me

[18:43] making you know I just think so much of

[18:45] my life I was so anxious. So, as a

[18:48] child, I used to

[18:50] um when I got a wish, you know, on a

[18:53] birthday wish or something, I always had

[18:55] the same wish, which I think is really

[18:56] disturbing for a seven or 8-year-old to

[18:58] have this wish. But it just shows how

[19:00] much anxiety I was living in. But the

[19:02] wish was I wish I always knew what to do

[19:05] >> cuz the world felt really, really scary

[19:08] and it felt imperative in my home and in

[19:10] the world that I never make a misstep.

[19:12] And um and I feel like in a way that

[19:16] that childhood prayer has been answered,

[19:18] but I'm not the one who has to know.

[19:21] Just next right step here, next right

[19:24] step here, you're good.

[19:27] Over the years of being able to develop

[19:29] that trust and that capacity to listen.

[19:32] Um, I think it's inspiring because a lot

[19:34] of people, myself and I'm sure everyone

[19:36] who's listening, yearns for that level

[19:39] of attunement and guidance and what

[19:41] feels like reassurance.

[19:43] And

[19:45] at times when checking in internally,

[19:48] I think we have many patterns and fears

[19:51] that can masquerade as a voice of reason

[19:53] that um that we can start to delineate

[19:56] the texture and the way that you express

[19:59] that God or this intelligence or life or

[20:02] love

[20:04] >> um it it feels like inherently kind,

[20:06] reassuring. What other things have you

[20:08] noticed are like singularly that thing?

[20:12] >> Not grandiose. Mhm.

[20:14] >> Um, so I I can know my ego by a couple

[20:17] tells. And one is grandiosity.

[20:20] [laughter]

[20:20] >> Go figure.

[20:22] >> And one is self-hatred, which is another

[20:24] kind of grandiosity, weirdly.

[20:26] >> Um, and the narcissism of despair, you

[20:29] know, like I am so I'm uniquely [ __ ]

[20:32] You know, [laughter]

[20:35] in the rooms of recovery, they call it

[20:37] terminally unique, but it's like I am

[20:39] particularly and especially doomed. You

[20:41] know, like like my ego wants to be

[20:43] important in any way. If it can be

[20:44] important by being the most [ __ ] up

[20:46] one, it'll it'll take that. You know,

[20:49] >> it's a great dating profile description.

[20:51] >> Uniquely [ __ ] [laughter]

[20:55] >> You seem fun. We should hang out. Are

[20:57] you also uniquely terminally [laughter]

[20:58] [ __ ] you know, and I'm not I'm not

[21:01] like I love in the rooms of recovery

[21:02] they say you're just another bozo on the

[21:04] bus. Like I like I am just another bozo

[21:06] on the bus and also very special and

[21:08] precious, but but like not uniquely

[21:10] [ __ ] and not uniquely important

[21:11] either, you know? Um and uh and then

[21:16] control like I think in order for me to

[21:19] deepen that trust, there's something

[21:21] that God asks me in return, which is to

[21:24] to drop control.

[21:26] I say that as if it's easy es especially

[21:28] as somebody who's always been very

[21:30] controlling because that also comes out

[21:32] of fear obviously but um like I'll give

[21:35] an example when I came into and I write

[21:37] about this in my book about being I

[21:39] identify as a sex and love addict the

[21:41] book is about that it's about addiction

[21:43] of all kinds but it's especially about

[21:45] in my case intimacy addiction and sex

[21:47] and love addiction which has done me in

[21:50] so many times um because my will was

[21:52] like I want this person at any cost and

[21:56] God's like, "Okay, at any cost, go. Here

[21:58] comes the cost." You know, here it is.

[22:00] And um when I first came into the rooms

[22:02] of recovery, I was negotiating with God

[22:05] and saying like, "If I if I enter this

[22:08] program and I do all the steps and I get

[22:10] a sponsor and I do the work perfectly,

[22:13] will you give me one more great love

[22:15] story in my life?" And the answer came

[22:18] very clearly. I have no such promise for

[22:21] you. Like I don't I also don't

[22:23] negotiate. Like that's another way that

[22:25] I know. Yeah. Like I also know it to be

[22:27] God cuz God doesn't need to negotiate,

[22:29] [laughter]

[22:30] you know, and God's like I don't work I

[22:32] don't like broker deals, you know. Um

[22:36] and I don't make you asurances of what

[22:41] the future will hold. I'm just asking

[22:43] you if you'd like to come with me. And

[22:45] will you come with me

[22:47] with no need for any assurances? And

[22:49] will when you come to me, will you come

[22:52] to me not holding anything behind your

[22:54] back? Like any of your old methods of

[22:57] control, any of your old methods of

[22:58] manipulation, any of your old methods of

[23:00] survival, any of your old wishes that

[23:02] you've got hidden from me. Like, how

[23:05] about just open-handed put everything on

[23:07] the divine fire and walk and just walk

[23:09] toward me and don't bring anything with

[23:12] you and will you still do this program

[23:16] with that same level of commitment if I

[23:18] don't promise you another great love

[23:20] story? And search yourself for the

[23:23] answer cuz if you if the answer is no,

[23:24] don't bother doing the program

[23:26] [laughter]

[23:26] and don't bother let's not why are you

[23:28] even doing this? you know. Um, and so I

[23:32] think that the God that I know and love

[23:34] often asks me to put things down as much

[23:39] as to come. It's like drop that, drop

[23:42] that, put that down, put that ambition

[23:44] down, drop this outcome. And that's also

[23:47] how I recognize it cuz my ego won't let

[23:49] go of anything. I mean, my ego won't let

[23:51] go of anything unless it has claw marks

[23:52] in it from how hard I've been holding on

[23:53] to it, right? So like, so a voice that

[23:56] says to me, "Put that idea down. put

[23:58] that dream down, put that ambition down,

[24:01] put that grandiosity down, put that

[24:02] self-hatred down, put that wish down.

[24:05] Could only be a higher intelligence than

[24:07] than mine. So, I think I recognize it by

[24:09] that as well.

[24:11] >> It's kind of the opposite of

[24:12] manifesting.

[24:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you have an agenda.

[24:15] >> It's kind of the opposite of a vision

[24:16] board. It's like, put the vision board

[24:18] down.

[24:19] >> Put the manifestation down.

[24:21] >> Yeah.

[24:21] >> Put the agenda down. Put the dream away.

[24:24] I mean, this is so hard in this culture

[24:26] to say let go of the dream. Um, but

[24:30] there's a dream that I dream bigger than

[24:32] any dream I've ever had, which is

[24:33] serenity. And and I can't have the dream

[24:37] and have an attachment to the dream and

[24:38] also be have any serenity. So, I kind of

[24:41] have to let the dream go.

[24:43] >> It's powerful because I feel like so

[24:45] many things we declare that we want,

[24:48] things that we give with subtle

[24:49] expectations or expecting of a return.

[24:53] um

[24:55] quote unquote surrender yet still not

[24:59] >> you know there's still an expectation of

[25:01] of an outcome and um I think the more

[25:05] I've gotten to read through your life

[25:07] story through your journey of love and

[25:10] addiction and the pursuit which is of

[25:15] many addicts at different points of of

[25:17] finding that sense of peace and solace

[25:19] and serenity through the faulty means of

[25:22] a neverending perpetual stream of

[25:25] stimulus from the external, right, in

[25:27] some form.

[25:28] >> Um,

[25:30] coming to then go into recovery and um

[25:35] >> I I can't but help think because there's

[25:39] there's so much I want to I want to dive

[25:40] into.

[25:42] It was so beautiful to to read um all

[25:45] the way to the river and um the

[25:48] amazingly courageous vulnerable shares

[25:51] throughout. I'm like, "Wow, this girl's

[25:53] she's she's no joke. She's willing to

[25:55] lay it all out there." And uh I think

[25:58] that's so scary for us to even like be

[26:00] seen a little bit, let it let alone to

[26:02] like lay out your secret self, so to

[26:05] speak. Um what could you share a bit of

[26:08] that? Is it Marquez kind of framework of

[26:10] the three three selves?

[26:12] >> Yeah. Um Garcia Marquez said that every

[26:16] person has three selves, a public self,

[26:18] a private self, and a secret self. And

[26:20] and I remember sharing that with a

[26:22] really wise friend of mine years ago who

[26:24] said, "Oh yeah, you have to have a

[26:25] secret self." Because if for most

[26:27] people, if their secret self came out,

[26:31] it would it would destroy not only their

[26:33] public life but their private life.

[26:35] Private life meaning like the intimates

[26:37] around you. Like if people really knew

[26:39] what you were doing, [laughter]

[26:41] you know, like if everyone knew what

[26:43] everyone was really doing, like the

[26:46] threat to

[26:48] yourself would be so extreme, which is

[26:51] how we become secret keepers and and

[26:54] often keep secrets even from ourselves.

[26:57] Like there's stuff, you know, there's

[26:59] engines running in my ego that are,

[27:02] you know, behind doors that I can't even

[27:04] see like that are governing me that I

[27:06] can't even see what I'm up to. Um, and

[27:09] it's not easy to to to work around all

[27:12] of that. Um, but

[27:17] yeah, it's it didn't seem like there

[27:20] would be much of a point in writing this

[27:22] book if I didn't lay out the secret

[27:25] self. Especially because I'm also

[27:28] writing about I'm writing about my

[27:29] relationship with my partner Rehea and

[27:30] I'm writing about her drug addiction

[27:32] which was a very obvious like drug

[27:35] addiction and alcoholism and substance

[27:37] abuse can become a really obvious

[27:39] iteration of the damage that's happening

[27:42] inside of our secret selves. Um and and

[27:46] I wrote about like the degradation of

[27:47] her drug abuse and what I witnessed in

[27:49] that when I went through that with her.

[27:51] But I have my own way of medicating my

[27:58] misery and it's not quite as obvious as

[28:01] like heroin and cocaine, but it's it can

[28:05] be just as deadly. Um, and that is my

[28:09] desperate need for somebody to love me

[28:12] at any cost, including somebody who's in

[28:16] drug addiction and can't even take care

[28:17] of themselves. and I'm expecting that

[28:20] person to somehow be my salvation. Um, I

[28:24] feel like I got off your question a

[28:25] little bit, but

[28:27] but what's the point really, you know,

[28:29] like and and and there's a I wish I

[28:31] could remember who it was. Some

[28:32] memoirist said she got accused once of

[28:33] oversharing and she was like, "Well,

[28:35] what do you want in your memoir an

[28:36] underhar like [laughter]

[28:39] the whole point is that?" And also the

[28:41] god of my understanding said, "Do it

[28:44] like tell the story. Tell the whole

[28:46] story. don't tell part of the story.

[28:48] Don't do any image management

[28:51] >> in this in this book. Um because it

[28:54] won't be of any service to anybody. And

[28:57] Rheao was so good. My partner was so

[28:59] great at being transparent and

[29:01] vulnerable when she was sober. And um

[29:04] and I took inspiration from her as well.

[29:06] She was she could be such an incredibly

[29:08] open book. And I think she would have

[29:09] wanted the book to be as honest as it

[29:12] is. I know she would have. M I think we

[29:14] can all relate to that neverending image

[29:17] management which is perpetually

[29:20] exhausting. Yeah. [laughter]

[29:22] So exhausting.

[29:23] >> It's exhausting.

[29:24] >> Do you do you see it as a goal of sorts

[29:27] um to align those three selves like the

[29:30] public, private, secret? Do you think

[29:32] that they should be different? Like I'm

[29:35] curious

[29:37] what what the voice of of God, notorious

[29:42] God, [laughter]

[29:44] Bernie Wilson says that

[29:46] >> it's so good.

[29:46] >> Um would uh would would say there.

[29:50] >> Well, there's such a you have the right

[29:52] to privacy, you know. Um, and and there

[29:56] are I'm going to quote I think my friend

[29:59] Cheryl Strait here who said that when

[30:02] you're writing a book, you should write

[30:04] from your healed scars, not from your

[30:06] open wounds. And

[30:09] so by the time I sat down to write this,

[30:11] I was writing from healed a place of

[30:13] healed scars.

[30:14] >> Um, if I had written this book

[30:16] immediately after Rehea died,

[30:18] >> that would have been writing from an

[30:19] open wound. And if I had written this

[30:21] book when I was 6 months sober, that

[30:24] would have been writing from an open

[30:26] wound. But to write it five years sober,

[30:28] to write it seven years after Rya died,

[30:31] um there was enough time and enough

[30:33] processing

[30:35] in enough of the processing of my

[30:38] secrets in a safe container, which is

[30:40] what 12step provided for me. And the 12

[30:43] steps themselves have that baked in

[30:46] where it's like you're going to do a

[30:48] complete and fearless moral inventory.

[30:50] You're going to go through your past

[30:53] with a fine tooth comb and find every

[30:56] instance where you ever harmed anybody

[30:57] and find those people and make amends to

[31:00] them. You're going to you're going to

[31:02] look for every place that you're being

[31:04] selfish and controlling and

[31:06] self-centered. You're going to stop

[31:08] lying. you're going to like all of these

[31:11] things are are like the ongoing work of

[31:14] being sober, being what Bill W, the

[31:17] founder of AA, called emotionally sober,

[31:19] which is very different from just not

[31:21] using anymore. Like emotional sobriety

[31:23] is about taking that complete

[31:26] accountability for yourself every single

[31:27] day. And I remember telling a friend of

[31:29] mine that I was doing that, that I was

[31:31] in step four and five, which is for me

[31:33] took over a year of really excavating

[31:37] like where was I harmful? Where did I

[31:39] lie? Where was I self-centered? Where

[31:41] was I manipulative? Where did I have a

[31:43] hidden motive? Who have I hurt? Um and

[31:47] and I remember she just said, "I'm so

[31:49] glad I don't have to do that." And my

[31:50] feeling was like, I'm so grateful I get

[31:52] to do this because this stuff has been

[31:57] governing my behavior for the last 50

[32:00] years and like hurting me and hurting

[32:03] other people and I don't want to keep

[32:06] doing this. Like I don't want to I want

[32:08] to break the patterning of how I have

[32:10] been. I don't want to operate the way

[32:12] I've used to operate. And at the time

[32:14] that I was doing that, if you had told

[32:16] me someday you're going to write a

[32:17] memoir where you're going to talk about

[32:18] this process, I would have been like,

[32:20] you must be smoking roofing tar. There

[32:22] is no way I would want anybody to know

[32:25] any of these things about me. But but

[32:27] once that was done um and the story of

[32:31] Rehea was still lingering in my mind,

[32:34] then that's when my higher power was

[32:36] like, and now I want you to talk about

[32:37] this publicly.

[32:38] >> Um but not while you're doing it,

[32:40] >> you know? um like give yourself some

[32:42] space in there to to work that stuff

[32:45] out.

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[33:45] So, you opened up a bit with your own

[33:48] version of addiction and seeking solace

[33:51] through codependency and the many

[33:53] different behavioral compensations

[33:56] >> relationally. Um, could you, and I know

[34:00] it's a long journey in story, but

[34:03] explain what happened.

[34:06] What's what happened with you and Rehea?

[34:08] >> Uh-huh. Um, so Rehea Elias um was a

[34:14] writer, an artist, a filmmaker, a

[34:16] hairdresser. Um, I met her in the year

[34:20] 2000, which is so long ago now,

[34:23] [laughter]

[34:24] and feels like a different country. like

[34:26] the world feels like a different place

[34:28] than it than it did then. And I was in

[34:30] my first marriage when I met her. Um,

[34:32] somebody sent me to her for a hair

[34:33] intervention. You wouldn't know it now.

[34:35] I've got a buzzed head, but I used to

[34:37] have really difficult hair. And um, now

[34:39] I have really easy hair. And she fixed

[34:42] it and we became at first just

[34:45] hairdresser and client. There's also a

[34:47] weird intimacy in that relationship.

[34:50] >> Um, it's like a confessional booth. like

[34:52] you tell things to the person doing your

[34:54] hair that you might not tell to a it's

[34:57] like a bartender or cab driver like it's

[34:58] a safe person to kind of talk to. So and

[35:01] she was very good at that kind of

[35:02] intimacy. So we became closer over the

[35:05] years and then we became social friends

[35:06] and then we became very good friends and

[35:09] then we became best friends and then we

[35:12] became something

[35:13] there was a transition into something

[35:15] that just now I see it as love mixed

[35:20] with dependency. Um but she became the

[35:24] foremost person in my life. And at that

[35:26] point I was in my second marriage. This

[35:28] is all over the course of like 13 14

[35:30] years. Um and and that became very

[35:34] inconvenient because I loved and still

[35:36] love the man that I was married to very

[35:38] dearly. And but yet Rehea was the person

[35:42] who I relied on for everything. and um

[35:46] and we fell in love with each other for

[35:50] some reasons that were very healthy and

[35:51] some that weren't. Um and I think that's

[35:54] a difficult thing to parse through and

[35:55] you certainly can't know it in the

[35:56] moment. Um I fell in love with her

[36:00] strength. She was formidable and

[36:03] fearless. I mean she really genuinely

[36:06] presented as somebody who was fearless.

[36:08] I can be very frightened of people.

[36:10] people to me are kind of terrifying and

[36:14] understandably so. [laughter]

[36:15] Um, and I always walked into every room

[36:18] feeling like I have to manage I have to

[36:20] like manipulate and manage everybody in

[36:22] the room. And she just walked into the

[36:24] room and owned the room and um, and

[36:26] would say the thing out loud that nobody

[36:28] else had the courage to say and just

[36:30] felt like she could handle people in a

[36:32] way that made her feel like a very safe

[36:34] attachment to me. And when I was around

[36:36] her, I felt a level of safety that I had

[36:39] never experienced in my life and could

[36:40] not generate within myself. And so, of

[36:43] course, I became dependent on her

[36:45] because she was the only person who

[36:46] could bring me the vanilla pudding hum

[36:48] of well-being um just by walking into

[36:50] the room. And she became dependent on me

[36:52] in other ways. There are ways that I'm

[36:54] extremely courageous that she never had

[36:56] courage in. I'm very creatively brave. I

[36:58] will do anything in creativity. I'll

[37:01] write anything. I'll sing anything. I'll

[37:03] create anything. I'll draw anything.

[37:05] I'll put it out in the world. I don't

[37:06] care. And she had a lot of hang-ups

[37:07] around creativity. So, I became kind of

[37:09] her creative like doula. And she became

[37:13] my interpersonal doula. And when we were

[37:15] firing on all cylinders, it was an

[37:18] incredible, beautiful partnership of

[37:20] friendship. But there were secrets in

[37:22] it. We were secretly in love with each

[37:23] other. And nobody was saying that. Um, I

[37:26] didn't want to leave my marriage. She

[37:27] didn't want to blow it up. My husband

[37:30] knew and he didn't want to say anything.

[37:31] Like, there was all this stuff that

[37:33] nobody was talking about. And you know,

[37:35] the universe hates secrets. It just

[37:37] hates them. And eventually they all come

[37:39] out. And so what happened was that she

[37:42] was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic

[37:44] and liver cancer and given 6 months to

[37:46] live. And when that diagnosis arrived,

[37:49] when that day arrived, the bottom fell

[37:52] out of all of our worlds, my husband,

[37:55] her, mine, and it was no longer possible

[37:59] for me to pretend that I didn't love her

[38:02] the way I loved her. And it the idea I

[38:06] had a a sort of vision of her dying and

[38:08] never her never knowing what she was to

[38:10] me and me sitting at her bedside

[38:13] watching her go and never having said I

[38:15] love you and what I meant by I loved

[38:17] you. And that felt so hideous and wrong

[38:21] that I had to speak the secret life into

[38:24] my private life um and then into my

[38:26] public life and say I'm leaving this

[38:28] marriage to be with my best friend um

[38:31] not as her best friend but as her

[38:33] partner for whatever time she has left.

[38:36] And for a little while we had an amazing

[38:39] run of it. Um, you know, we were so in

[38:41] love and we had kept that secret for so

[38:44] long and now we got to be in love

[38:45] publicly and privately with each other.

[38:47] And um, and it was amazing. And also the

[38:51] kind of glamour of death, you know, the

[38:55] fact that we knew we had such a short

[38:56] time together just heightened everything

[38:59] and made everything sexier and more

[39:01] romantic and more wild and more free and

[39:03] all constraint was lost cuz it's like

[39:05] why bother

[39:07] >> holding back on anything if you're only

[39:08] going to be here for 6 months. And

[39:10] >> yeah, most people romanticize if you

[39:11] have it a year left, what would you do?

[39:13] you you got

[39:13] >> we got to have it and we were told we

[39:15] had 6 months and we were like bucket

[39:17] list galore like everything like no

[39:19] limits on anything um including the idea

[39:24] that she had at some point to

[39:25] reintroduce cocaine back into her life

[39:27] as somebody who had been an addict in

[39:30] recovery. And I got to say at the time

[39:32] myself and everyone around her was like

[39:34] why not you know like why not? But God's

[39:38] got jokes. She lived actually for 18

[39:40] months. [laughter]

[39:41] And um it's one thing to go on a little

[39:44] cocaine bender when you think you only

[39:46] have a month to live. It's another thing

[39:47] to become readed to the drug that

[39:49] destroyed you and then not die. And then

[39:52] now you're a hospice patient who's also

[39:53] a drug addict. And um that became where

[39:57] we went to. And she went to descended to

[40:00] the lowest version of herself um which

[40:03] was like a really manipulative, cruel

[40:07] user. And I went to the lowest version

[40:10] of myself, which is um self selfless in

[40:13] the worst possible way. Not selfless in

[40:15] the way of generosity, but selfless in

[40:17] the way of I have no self and I only

[40:19] live to serve you the user in whatever

[40:22] you need and I will let you violate me

[40:23] in any way. Um financially, emotionally,

[40:26] spiritually. Um and I will become a

[40:29] somebody just walking around with a

[40:30] begging bowl hoping that you will give

[40:32] me some affirmation of myself so that I

[40:35] can feel that I exist. And um so we both

[40:38] got to see each other at our absolute

[40:40] most degraded. And um and it was grim.

[40:45] It was really really grim. Um

[40:48] and then she died. [laughter]

[40:51] And then I had to process

[40:53] what was that that just happened? Who

[40:56] was that? Was that the most trustworthy

[40:59] person I ever knew? Who was the person I

[41:00] knew for 17 years to be an anchor in a

[41:03] rock? ever was that was I just played so

[41:06] hard and um and that became the

[41:10] beginning of my recovery.

[41:13] What was it like on the journey from

[41:16] saying

[41:19] let's send it for 6 months to then see

[41:22] the addiction come in and change the

[41:24] person you loved

[41:26] to to an extreme where you don't like

[41:29] you you know you love them but you no

[41:32] longer like the person at certain points

[41:34] and

[41:34] >> and they're about to die and there's

[41:36] that imshment and all all of that. Were

[41:38] you what what happened in that process

[41:41] of how you related and how that changed?

[41:43] >> It was hell. Um, you know, and I think a

[41:46] definition that I would think of as a

[41:49] good definition from h of hell is

[41:52] endless suffering that you can't get out

[41:53] of, you know. I mean, that's what that's

[41:56] people who promise hell to you are

[41:58] promising that, you know, you're there's

[42:00] going to be a place of endless suffering

[42:01] that you can't get out of, which for a

[42:03] lot of people is actually what this

[42:04] realm feels like. Um, and for a lot of

[42:07] my life, that's what this realm has felt

[42:09] like. Um, so we went to hell. Um, and

[42:14] and I I was so

[42:17] trapped. I felt so trapped because I

[42:20] couldn't do an intervention. She's a I

[42:23] couldn't say if you keep doing these

[42:25] drugs, you're going to die. She was

[42:26] already dying. like she had no reason to

[42:29] stop and nobody I mean she was a bull

[42:32] when it came to like she was titanium

[42:35] when it came to being a drug user. I

[42:37] mean she was a lowbottom addict. So like

[42:40] we're talking thousands and thousands

[42:43] and thousands of dollars of cocaine and

[42:45] everything else and all of the

[42:48] manipulations that go along with that.

[42:50] like and how could I say no

[42:54] to funding that when she was saying this

[42:59] is the only thing way that I cannot

[43:01] experience pain. Um which I believe was

[43:05] actually what she was experiencing that

[43:06] it was the only way to not experience

[43:08] pain. Um

[43:12] she was being cruel to me

[43:15] and vicious and dark. She wasn't

[43:19] sleeping. That's the thing cocaine does.

[43:21] So, she was hallucinating. She was still

[43:25] thought she was the baddest ass [ __ ] in

[43:27] the entire world. So, she's like

[43:29] completely helpless and vulnerable and a

[43:30] drug addict, but still like wants to

[43:32] control the world. And I still want that

[43:35] person

[43:37] to complete me. Like that person is

[43:40] supposed to look at me the way she used

[43:43] to say the things she used to say,

[43:45] promise me and assure me, soothe my

[43:48] anxiety,

[43:50] sedate me, make me feel all the things

[43:53] that she used to be able to make me

[43:54] feel. And because of the fact that she

[43:56] couldn't do that anymore, I came to hate

[43:58] her during that time because she was my

[44:01] drug. She was doing her drug, but she

[44:03] was my drug. So when she started doing

[44:06] her drug, my drug was ripped away. And I

[44:08] behaved the way addicts do when you take

[44:10] their drug away. Like I went I like

[44:13] ugly. Like ugly and and cruel and

[44:17] resentful. It I mean it's a nightmare.

[44:19] Codependency is awful. It's just

[44:21] absolutely awful. And I couldn't see any

[44:24] way out. And I've had this experience a

[44:26] number of times in my life where

[44:30] anytime I have ever felt trapped and

[44:33] caged in hell and I've felt that a

[44:36] number of times in my life where I'm

[44:38] like there's no way out. There's no way

[44:39] out. There's no way out. I've I've like

[44:41] gotten myself imshed in something and

[44:43] there's no way out. It turns out there

[44:45] always is and it's always the same way

[44:47] and it's always the last thing I want to

[44:49] do and that is to tell the truth.

[44:51] [laughter]

[44:53] It's always the key out of hell. It's

[44:56] always the key out of hell. It's like

[44:58] there's a truth I'm not telling.

[45:00] And the truth that I wasn't telling was

[45:02] I have I can't do this. Like I can't do

[45:06] this. I don't want to do this. I have to

[45:08] stop. Like I can't be living with this

[45:11] active drug addict. It's killing me. And

[45:14] I did. And I was afraid that if I told

[45:16] that truth that I would die, that she

[45:18] would die that, you know, it was

[45:20] horrible. But I mean, every single time

[45:22] I've ever felt trapped, God's like, "You

[45:23] know what you need to do?"

[45:26] Like, you know what you need to do? You

[45:28] know, there's only one pathway out of

[45:29] hell, and it's honesty.

[45:32] Where are you lying? Where are you

[45:34] hiding? And where are you manipulating?

[45:36] And what are you willing to give up in

[45:38] order to tell that truth and get free?

[45:40] Um, so the truth will set you free. It

[45:42] just has its way with you first.

[45:43] [laughter]

[45:44] And I'm always like, "Not that." It's

[45:46] like it's like Dorothy, you know, in the

[45:49] Wizard of Oz where they're like, "You

[45:50] just have to get the shoes from the

[45:51] witch." It's like, "Not the shoes from

[45:53] the wi, not the broom, you know, like

[45:55] >> not the truth.

[45:56] >> Not the broom." Like, "Not that. Not my

[45:58] biggest nightmare."

[45:59] >> Yeah.

[45:59] >> But that's how it works for some reason

[46:02] in this realm.

[46:03] >> That's how it works.

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[47:07] the show.

[47:10] the way that you describe your

[47:11] increasing amount of awareness into this

[47:16] dichotomy um as you kind of referred to

[47:19] it as a divine crowbar in some some

[47:21] context you know where

[47:23] >> life will continue to repeat these

[47:25] experiences to show you where you're

[47:26] still stuck where you're not free where

[47:28] you're putting outsourcing your love all

[47:29] of those things

[47:31] >> and

[47:32] >> I know it's been an arc even with Eat

[47:34] Pray Love like you had an awareness of

[47:37] this within yourself Yeah.

[47:40] >> And

[47:42] even after selling 25 plus million

[47:44] copies, which is that's a lot of books.

[47:47] That's a lot of books.

[47:48] >> And it was also a lot of money.

[47:50] >> And

[47:51] >> I heard I read that in 2008 you would

[47:54] like go around and just offer

[47:56] shopkeepers and small businesses checks

[47:58] like, "Can I write you a check for can I

[48:01] give you money?" And from the outside in

[48:04] that looks like incredibly generous and

[48:05] I'm sure was wellreceived and really

[48:07] appreciated. But talk to me about that

[48:09] place that bitter aftertaste of giving

[48:12] from a sense of lack or giving from a

[48:14] sense of expectation and

[48:17] >> well yeah [laughter]

[48:19] it's so hard

[48:21] >> cuz like you said it looks like

[48:22] generosity

[48:23] >> and I am generous

[48:25] >> and I like being generous and it feels

[48:27] good to be generous. Um and a lot of

[48:30] times I don't know I had an expectation

[48:32] until that expectation wasn't met.

[48:34] >> Yeah. And and then I find out in the

[48:37] aftermath like, "Oh, I did have an ex. I

[48:39] did have a string attached. I just

[48:41] didn't know I did because I thought it

[48:44] was so obvious. [laughter]

[48:46] I thought it was so obvious that you

[48:48] wouldn't do that thing that you just

[48:49] did, you know, like or that you would

[48:52] take that money that I gave you and you

[48:54] would obviously do this with it, right?

[48:57] Like obviously you would use it to

[48:59] better your life. You would obviously

[49:01] use it to get well. you would obviously

[49:03] spend it on your kids and not on a new

[49:05] car. You would obviously like, you know,

[49:07] like clearly that's what you would do,

[49:09] you know. Um, so

[49:13] the resentment is the bitter taste, the

[49:17] bitter aftertaste. So, I can tell when

[49:21] I'm in resentment that I've overgiven.

[49:24] That I said yes when I meant no

[49:27] or that there's an expectation that I'm

[49:30] hiding from myself about

[49:33] what I'm supposed to get in return for

[49:35] what I gave. And typically, I mean, I

[49:37] could for me it's just I'm a love

[49:39] addict, so it's like you're supposed to

[49:40] love me. It was actually really funny

[49:42] when I was on that bender giving money

[49:44] away like crazy in 2008 because that's

[49:46] when all the big checks came from Eight

[49:47] Pray Love and it like blew my circuitry.

[49:50] I never expected to have that kind of

[49:52] money and I didn't know what to do with

[49:53] it. I didn't think I was worthy of it

[49:54] and it seemed like a great idea to just

[49:56] give it to everybody. So, I just gave it

[49:58] to everybody and some of those people it

[50:00] really did help and and some of those

[50:02] stories were really good and some of

[50:04] those people it just enabled and a lot

[50:08] of those relationships it destroyed. Um,

[50:11] and we created dependency modes where

[50:13] then they came back for more and more

[50:14] and more and more and more and then I

[50:16] had to cut them off and now they hate me

[50:18] and I hate them. Like there was all

[50:19] sorts of stuff. Not not every case. Um,

[50:22] but

[50:24] it it's shown light in in dysfunction in

[50:26] various different ways. Um, but there

[50:30] was a woman in my town who owned a

[50:31] coffee shop and I heard that she had um

[50:35] started her coffee shop on credit card

[50:36] debt and and I was like, "Oh, no. That's

[50:39] terrible. Let me go pay off her credit

[50:42] cards and then she can just pay me off

[50:45] with no interest because she's like

[50:47] taking out basically loans at 23% to

[50:50] open up a coffee shop. That's crazy."

[50:52] And she's a single person and like I

[50:54] don't like that for her. And so I went

[50:56] to her. I mean, I barely even knew her.

[50:58] I went to her and talked to her and I'm

[50:59] like, I'd like to give you, you know,

[51:01] $20,000 to to help you pay off your

[51:04] credit cards and you can starting next

[51:05] year, let's take a year off and then you

[51:07] can just pay me back on a schedule and

[51:09] no interest and it'll save you a lot of

[51:11] money and it'll feel good for me cuz I

[51:13] don't like knowing that you're, you

[51:14] know, in this situation. And she was

[51:16] like, "Okay, thanks."

[51:20] And I didn't get the payoff of her like,

[51:22] "Oh my god, you saved my life. Oh my

[51:25] god, you're amaz. She just said, "Okay,

[51:27] thanks."

[51:28] >> And I'm like, "Okay,

[51:29] >> that's kind of wild."

[51:30] >> And I like, she was so incredible. And I

[51:32] wrote her a check for $20,000 and gave

[51:34] it to her. She's like, "Thank you. I

[51:35] appreciate that."

[51:36] >> And I walked out with no payoff. Like, I

[51:39] didn't get high off being the the one

[51:42] who was the savior, right? Like, so I

[51:44] walked away. I'm like, "That feels

[51:45] weird, and I don't know why that feels

[51:46] weird." Then she very steadily paid paid

[51:49] me back. And then um like no drama, no

[51:54] anything. And then after a couple years,

[51:55] I had enough people who owed me money

[51:56] that I hated the feeling. So I went

[51:58] around town. I just said, "Forget about

[51:59] all those loans I gave you guys. Just

[52:01] just like don't pay me back. Just keep

[52:02] it. Like we're good." And then I went to

[52:05] her shop and I'm like, "Forget about

[52:06] that loan. Just like you can keep it.

[52:08] It's no big deal. Don't worry about it."

[52:10] And she's like, "Okay, thanks."

[52:12] And once again, I didn't get that. She

[52:14] didn't, you know, and then I like

[52:15] ordered a coffee and she's like, "That's

[52:17] 350." And I was like, "You're

[52:20] incredible. [laughter]

[52:22] like you are not you will not give me

[52:26] anything like you are not working for me

[52:28] energetically you know what I mean like

[52:30] you just are in your own vibe and like

[52:34] >> and that's when I saw how much I was

[52:36] relying on the reaction

[52:39] >> that people gave me of being a savior to

[52:42] get a sense of heightened meaning and

[52:44] that's why now I'm very I have to be

[52:46] really really really careful like to

[52:48] still give but to Like I have to I think

[52:51] it's healthier for me to give in boring

[52:53] ways like to give to an organization

[52:55] >> where they're like send me a form

[52:57] letter. Yeah.

[52:58] >> They're like thanks for helping out, you

[52:59] know, rather than me getting fond over

[53:01] which is a way of feeding my the vacancy

[53:04] within me.

[53:05] >> Um yeah, I don't get the payoff anymore.

[53:08] >> So do you still want to give even if you

[53:10] don't get the payoff or did you just

[53:12] want the payoff? [laughter]

[53:15] >> You know, it's like how how honest are

[53:17] you being here about what you're

[53:18] expecting to get out of this? M

[53:19] >> she didn't even give me a hug.

[53:21] [laughter]

[53:22] >> Give her $20,000. But I I still think of

[53:25] her as this kind of saint in my life cuz

[53:27] she just showed up to reflect back to me

[53:30] like this is what you think you need and

[53:32] this is what I'm not going to give you.

[53:34] >> Yeah.

[53:34] >> Do you still want to give me anything?

[53:37] And was like, well, this is a very

[53:39] interesting exchange.

[53:40] >> Yeah. [laughter] No, that's wild for

[53:42] many reasons. Um

[53:44] >> yeah, she was a great a great master.

[53:48] I love that you have that perspective

[53:50] and and and it was a big mirror, right?

[53:52] So, what that vacancy that you

[53:55] described?

[53:56] >> Yeah.

[53:56] >> What is it specifically about being

[53:58] Lizzy that

[54:01] you felt like in this Earth school you

[54:04] needed to learn a lesson around? Why do

[54:07] I'm sure you spent time

[54:09] >> thinking about this like

[54:11] >> what is it specifically about your

[54:13] wiring or your makeup that you needed to

[54:15] learn lessons in this particular way if

[54:18] that makes sense?

[54:18] >> Yeah. I think I I showed up for this

[54:21] round of curriculum to do a deep

[54:24] investigation into where love comes from

[54:27] and um

[54:30] where it's dangerous to seek it and what

[54:34] it is and what it isn't. And these are

[54:37] not easy lessons. And I don't know

[54:39] whether it's karma or genetics or

[54:44] childhood trauma or some mysterious

[54:47] combination of all of them. But my thing

[54:49] has always been there is not enough love

[54:51] for me in this world. This is a this is

[54:53] a this was a loveless place. I and the

[54:57] feeling I also always felt like I came

[54:59] from a place where there was infinite

[55:00] love and this is [ __ ] up here. like

[55:05] this isn't there's a real shortage of it

[55:07] here and and I got to go get whatever

[55:11] there is of it by any means necessary

[55:14] and and as much of it as I can get is

[55:17] still never going to be enough and

[55:19] that's the addict brain like there's not

[55:21] enough there wasn't enough cocaine in

[55:22] the world for Rhea there wasn't enough

[55:24] love in the world for me um and

[55:28] and I know that because I've been loved

[55:31] um and I've been loved

[55:34] unconditionally. There have been people

[55:36] in my life who have loved me a great

[55:38] deal and it does not fill that vacancy.

[55:42] It's not enough. It's not enough. So

[55:47] where do I get it? Like where do I get

[55:50] it if I can't extract it from others?

[55:54] And also even people who have loved me

[55:56] and who have loved me well and deeply

[55:59] and and tenderly like sometimes they

[56:02] have to like get up and make a sandwich,

[56:04] you know, like sometimes they have to go

[56:05] to work. It cannot be their full-time

[56:07] job. Even somebody who might say that

[56:09] they would want it to be their full-time

[56:11] job. And I would be very suspicious now

[56:13] of anybody who said that they wanted

[56:15] their full-time job to be to love me.

[56:17] That's a person who's not well. Um, but

[56:23] they can't. Even if they want to, they

[56:26] can't. And

[56:29] when I came into the rooms of recovery

[56:31] and was told that the program that I was

[56:35] in for sex and love addiction that that

[56:37] the solution is that you must love

[56:40] yourself. I was so pissed off. I was

[56:42] like, I don't I don't want that to be

[56:45] the answer, you know? like I want you to

[56:47] teach me how to be better at getting

[56:49] love from other people. [laughter]

[56:51] I don't want the answer. Why does the

[56:53] answer always have to be that you have

[56:55] to source it from within? And as

[56:56] somebody who grew up in a household

[56:58] where

[57:00] and I think my mother would not mind me

[57:02] sharing this cuz I think she believes to

[57:05] this day that this was the way to parent

[57:07] and is proud of it, but like you're on

[57:10] your own was kind of her parenting

[57:11] motto. um like to have been told as a

[57:15] very early child like you're on your own

[57:18] like you figure it out and then to be

[57:22] told as a suffering adult

[57:25] you're on your own you figure it out and

[57:27] it's of course not true that I am on my

[57:29] own like

[57:31] I have resources in people who want to

[57:34] help me and I have resources in a god

[57:38] that is actually the unblinking eye of

[57:40] that love And but I didn't want that to

[57:44] be the answer either, you know? I'm

[57:46] like, don't have it just be God.

[57:48] [laughter]

[57:49] I don't want to be loved just by God and

[57:51] just by me, you know. And there were

[57:53] nights when I was going through

[57:54] withdrawal and sex and love addiction

[57:55] where like this part of me was like

[57:57] kicking

[57:59] just kicking and being like, you have

[58:01] got to get somebody here. Like you know

[58:04] how to do this. Like go out there, get

[58:07] somebody, and bring them here. There are

[58:10] not enough people in this bed.

[58:12] [laughter]

[58:12] There's only one person. This is not

[58:14] enough. It's three o'clock in the

[58:15] morning. This is not okay. Like it I I

[58:19] don't care who it is. And my history has

[58:21] shown that I don't often care who it is.

[58:23] I don't care who it is.

[58:25] A body, another human being, somebody,

[58:28] anybody now here. And for most of my

[58:32] life, I've I've obeyed that command, you

[58:36] know, and then have had to pay the

[58:37] consequences of like, now what are you

[58:39] going to do with and about this person

[58:41] who's here? Um, who you might not even

[58:44] like, who might not even like you. Now,

[58:46] what are you guys going to do? You've

[58:48] done this thing. And

[58:52] those withdrawals

[58:54] in early recovery were a time where I

[58:57] had to learn how to just be deeply

[58:59] present to

[59:02] that suffering, screaming. I call it the

[59:05] Siberian baby. It's like a baby on the

[59:07] tundra of Siberia just wailing into a

[59:10] into a snowstorm and nobody's coming.

[59:14] And it's like and that baby would say to

[59:16] me like, "You're not enough. like you

[59:19] are not enough to comfort me. It has to

[59:20] come from another person. And I don't

[59:23] even want to hear about God. Like that's

[59:25] not even a thing, you know? And I would

[59:27] just have to learn to like sit and rock

[59:30] with that child and just say like I am

[59:33] aware that I am not enough and I am

[59:36] aware that you don't believe in God, but

[59:37] we're the only ones here and we have

[59:41] actually got you. We have actually got

[59:43] you. And we're gonna sit with you

[59:45] through this night and tomorrow night,

[59:47] too, and the next night and for however

[59:48] long this lasts. And you don't have to

[59:51] get well for us to love you. You don't

[59:53] have to do anything better, anything

[59:54] different. We see you. We love you.

[59:56] We're here. And it's like, [ __ ] you.

[59:59] [laughter]

[1:00:01] >> Bring somebody else. And I'm like, I am

[1:00:03] aware I'm inadequate and yet I love you

[1:00:06] >> and I am here

[1:00:07] >> and I am with you and apparently we're

[1:00:09] supposed to be together cuz here we are.

[1:00:11] And um and and that's how that void

[1:00:14] started to be filled and that that

[1:00:16] creature that like Gollum inside of me

[1:00:20] started to trust

[1:00:23] that I was going to always be there and

[1:00:25] that God was going to always be there.

[1:00:27] And I'm a much safer person for myself

[1:00:30] and for everybody around me when I

[1:00:32] provide that

[1:00:34] >> because if I don't provide that,

[1:00:35] Gollum's going to make me go find it.

[1:00:38] And that's not going to go well for

[1:00:40] anybody.

[1:00:42] A I love the Gollum.

[1:00:44] >> I know. Poor thing. [snorts]

[1:00:47] >> Do you see Do you see the the Gollum as

[1:00:49] like Lizzy as like your inner child? How

[1:00:51] do you kind of actually contextualize it

[1:00:53] when connecting to it?

[1:00:55] >> I think it's Lizzy, but Lizzy, the inner

[1:00:59] child at the time of my childhood was

[1:01:02] innocent.

[1:01:04] And addiction is when that innocent

[1:01:09] child filled with unmet needs

[1:01:11] metastasizes into something that can be

[1:01:14] actually monstrous.

[1:01:17] And so I have a lot of love and sympathy

[1:01:20] for her, but also unchecked

[1:01:23] and allowed to govern and allowed to

[1:01:25] call the shots. Um,

[1:01:29] she is a really dangerous person for for

[1:01:33] me and for all.

[1:01:36] Nobody is safe if that person if that

[1:01:38] being is in charge. And that doesn't

[1:01:40] mean that that being

[1:01:42] should be starved of love. In fact, must

[1:01:44] be loved and can be loved. Um, but

[1:01:50] it's,

[1:01:52] you know, we all start with this

[1:01:54] beautiful innocence and these beautiful

[1:01:55] unmet needs, but they can make us into

[1:01:58] into really dangerous people who hurt

[1:02:01] people. And that hurt is real. And that

[1:02:05] amends process that that we go through

[1:02:08] in recovery is where you look at the un

[1:02:12] like the unclouded mirror and you're

[1:02:14] like, "Holy [ __ ] look what I do.

[1:02:17] Like look what I do when I'm in in that

[1:02:20] state and look at the wreckage that that

[1:02:22] causes

[1:02:24] in so many ways.

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[1:03:31] Back to the show.

[1:03:34] In recover, some recovery circles, I

[1:03:35] think they say, you can never get enough

[1:03:37] of something that almost works,

[1:03:39] [laughter] right? How have I been in

[1:03:41] recovery for seven years and never heard

[1:03:43] that? Oh, that is so good. You can never

[1:03:47] get enough of something that almost

[1:03:48] works. Please remind me to write that

[1:03:50] down before I leave.

[1:03:52] >> Only if this was recorded. Yeah.

[1:03:54] >> Um, got you. [laughter]

[1:03:56] >> Wait, you're recording this

[1:03:58] >> camera?

[1:03:59] >> They do just my mic and leave.

[1:04:02] [laughter]

[1:04:04] >> I didn't agree to be recorded.

[1:04:07] I thought we were just talking with your

[1:04:09] friends with a lot of electronic

[1:04:10] equipment around

[1:04:12] [clears throat and laughter]

[1:04:13] >> what

[1:04:16] I'm glad I hope it does feel that way.

[1:04:18] They kind of do dissolve after a certain

[1:04:19] moment.

[1:04:20] >> Yeah.

[1:04:20] >> into the conversation. But um it's uh

[1:04:25] it's interesting because it's almost it

[1:04:27] is more obvious when you have an

[1:04:29] external object or drug that you're

[1:04:31] addicted to when it's this like elusive

[1:04:33] inner invisible

[1:04:35] >> dynamic relational thing. Um I think

[1:04:38] it's easy to justify justify our way out

[1:04:41] of her own neurosis or like you know

[1:04:43] >> um

[1:04:44] >> but uh

[1:04:47] from from reading your story and just

[1:04:49] getting to see how it got increasingly

[1:04:51] more clear that there was your part to

[1:04:53] play in the dynamic that was unhealthy

[1:04:55] to say the least.

[1:04:56] >> Um what at what point did you get go

[1:04:58] into recovery?

[1:05:00] >> Uh it was a year and change after Rya

[1:05:04] died. Um it was right before CO 2019.

[1:05:07] >> Okay. Right before CO and then

[1:05:10] >> CO time and you decided to stop seeing

[1:05:13] people like romantically as well after

[1:05:15] that.

[1:05:16] >> Yeah.

[1:05:16] >> Um

[1:05:18] and how are you now? So you're just

[1:05:20] coming out of your sobatical but like

[1:05:22] this has been a long

[1:05:23] >> sevenyear journey.

[1:05:25] >> Yeah. Um, well, I'm, you know, I I

[1:05:30] sometimes like to compare like where I

[1:05:33] was and where I am. And I think one of

[1:05:35] the ways you can kind of I can kind of

[1:05:37] gauge how I am is that

[1:05:41] um what I needed 7 years ago in order to

[1:05:45] be propped up versus what I need now.

[1:05:48] Um, and

[1:05:51] so at the time that I first came into

[1:05:53] recovery, I for instance at that time I

[1:05:57] I've been on and off anti-anxiety and

[1:06:00] anti-depressive medications for my whole

[1:06:02] life. And I leave it to whoever is

[1:06:03] listening to this to know what is best

[1:06:05] for them on that. Um, I'm only speaking

[1:06:07] of my own experience, but at that time I

[1:06:10] was on Zoloft. I had a prescription for

[1:06:13] Xanax running all the time so that if I

[1:06:16] needed an emergency, like if I could not

[1:06:18] manage my anxiety and my emotions and

[1:06:21] needed that, I could have that. Um, I

[1:06:24] had a sleeping pill prescription going

[1:06:26] at all times. It didn't mean that I took

[1:06:28] those pills every night, but I had them

[1:06:30] and I took them most nights. And I had

[1:06:35] um a therapist that I went to twice a

[1:06:38] week and I had a couple's therapist

[1:06:41] basically on retainer [laughter]

[1:06:44] who I had gone to over the years with

[1:06:45] various people and he'd be like, "Hi

[1:06:47] Liz, who who do we have today?" You

[1:06:49] know, like who have you who have you

[1:06:50] dragged into here today who you want me

[1:06:52] to change? Um so that you you can be

[1:06:55] happy, you know, and I'd be like,

[1:06:57] "Please meet, you know, new my res."

[1:06:59] >> My res Yeah, exactly. Um, and I had a

[1:07:03] shaman who I did like, you know, IA and

[1:07:08] and various other journeys with. I I

[1:07:10] like I had a like a staff basically of

[1:07:14] people. Um, and that's not even

[1:07:16] including the the my most recent victim

[1:07:18] who I had who I had hauled in as my

[1:07:22] lover partner. Um, you know, like you're

[1:07:25] responsible for for making everything

[1:07:28] okay person. Um, and I don't have any of

[1:07:32] that now. Um, and I just like I'm just

[1:07:37] hanging out. [laughter] Like I wake up I

[1:07:41] wake up and I have a day, you know, and

[1:07:44] I'm not on any um Oh, and I was

[1:07:49] drinking. I forgot about that. And I was

[1:07:51] drinking. Um, and that's gone. And the

[1:07:55] anti-depressants and the anti-anxiety

[1:07:57] medication is gone. and the sleeping

[1:07:58] pills are gone. And the therapist is

[1:08:01] somebody who I might check in with like

[1:08:03] every few months if I'm like, "Can I get

[1:08:05] a tuneup on this?" Um, the couple's

[1:08:07] therapist is not needed. Um, the shaman

[1:08:10] is gone. The the the plant medicine is

[1:08:13] gone. Um, and what remains is this

[1:08:17] person who's

[1:08:20] able

[1:08:22] using the tools of recovery and the

[1:08:25] guidance of a higher power to to

[1:08:28] navigate herself

[1:08:31] today,

[1:08:32] like just for today, like and who's just

[1:08:35] here seeing what this conversation is

[1:08:38] about. Um, I haven't been in a romantic

[1:08:42] or sexual relationship since I came into

[1:08:43] recovery. That's not what my recovery

[1:08:45] program is about. It's not

[1:08:49] part of sex and love addiction to say

[1:08:51] that you can never have sex and love

[1:08:53] again. Um, I have a lot more love in my

[1:08:56] life than I've ever had, but it's coming

[1:08:59] from a community of people rather than

[1:09:02] from one person, which I think is safer

[1:09:04] for everybody. like one person's not my

[1:09:06] plug, you know, like and um and actually

[1:09:09] in the rooms of recovery that I'm in,

[1:09:11] it's mostly women. And there's a line

[1:09:13] that a woman said once that I think is

[1:09:15] incredible where she said, "Everything I

[1:09:16] ever thought I was supposed to get from

[1:09:18] one man, it turns out I can only get

[1:09:19] from a community of women." So that love

[1:09:22] is kind of dispersed among a bunch of

[1:09:24] people who are all emotionally available

[1:09:26] but who are all also emotionally

[1:09:28] responsible meaning that every one of us

[1:09:31] are taking responsibility for our own

[1:09:33] lives not for each other's lives but

[1:09:34] we're available to help.

[1:09:36] >> Um and I haven't been interested in

[1:09:40] bringing a relationship at that level

[1:09:42] back into my life. And when I check in

[1:09:44] with God to be like, "Do you want me? Do

[1:09:47] you want me out there on these streets?"

[1:09:50] Like dating, God's like, "Lol, no,

[1:09:53] [laughter]

[1:09:55] not you, honey." Like other people I

[1:09:57] might And God's like, "If if I need that

[1:09:58] from you,

[1:09:59] >> yeah,

[1:10:00] >> you'll be alerted and it'll come and it

[1:10:02] will come through two-way prayer and it

[1:10:04] will come from me and I'll tell you how

[1:10:05] to do it. It's not going to be your

[1:10:07] idea,

[1:10:08] >> you know. Um, but for today, no, you're

[1:10:10] great. You're great. Why? like let's not

[1:10:13] this is good [laughter] like you want to

[1:10:15] test and see how crazy you still are you

[1:10:18] know you want to take the ride like you

[1:10:21] can but I wouldn't advise it um in my

[1:10:24] case

[1:10:25] >> so um so that's where I am and it's

[1:10:28] funny cuz a year ago I would have said

[1:10:30] I'm also more creatively productive than

[1:10:32] I've ever been

[1:10:33] >> and that's true cuz I wrote three books

[1:10:35] in the last six years but now suddenly

[1:10:39] I'm questioning whether that's even a

[1:10:41] virtue M

[1:10:42] >> um because I think as things fall away

[1:10:44] that I relied upon to prop myself up to

[1:10:48] make myself feel like I was a special

[1:10:50] person, I think my my creative

[1:10:54] production is part of that. And so,

[1:10:58] um cuz I always had that it's like

[1:11:00] everything else can fall away, but I'm

[1:11:01] still a really good writer and I'm going

[1:11:03] to prove it now by writing a really good

[1:11:04] book.

[1:11:05] >> Maybe I don't need to, you know. Um so

[1:11:09] it's interesting. I I have fewer

[1:11:12] dependencies

[1:11:14] than I've ever had. And I think that's

[1:11:17] probably a measure of my wellness.

[1:11:21] Doing okay today. I

[1:11:23] >> think you're crushing the game.

[1:11:25] >> I don't want to crush the game. I want

[1:11:27] to stay right in the middle of the herd.

[1:11:28] [laughter]

[1:11:29] >> I was I was crushing the game in the

[1:11:32] past. You know what I mean? It's like

[1:11:33] I'm [ __ ] crushing life, you know?

[1:11:36] Like I got a movie made out of like I

[1:11:38] did TED talk. I gotta like crushing the

[1:11:41] game.

[1:11:41] >> The game was crushed. Now you're loving

[1:11:43] it.

[1:11:44] >> It crushed me. [laughter]

[1:11:47] >> I thought I was crushing the game, but I

[1:11:49] think it did crush me.

[1:11:51] >> Well, okay. So, I want to zoom in on the

[1:11:53] evolution then of your creativity.

[1:11:58] So many people have come into your world

[1:11:59] and into your work because they feel

[1:12:01] like and they can probably relate to the

[1:12:04] quote that I've heard you share also

[1:12:05] from the Gospel of Thomas. You know, if

[1:12:07] you bring forth what's within you, what

[1:12:09] you bring forth will save you. If you

[1:12:11] don't bring forth what's within you,

[1:12:12] what you don't bring forth will destroy

[1:12:14] you. And

[1:12:17] we all have this creative

[1:12:20] aspect of self as we are a creative

[1:12:23] being. To varying degrees, we've allowed

[1:12:25] that to give room and to give space. And

[1:12:27] you've been such a guiding light for so

[1:12:28] many people to give permission. Not that

[1:12:30] it's necessarily yours to give, but to

[1:12:32] invite that reminder. and all the many

[1:12:35] different things we'll navigate on on

[1:12:37] the way there. So, how

[1:12:40] do you define creative living now?

[1:12:41] Perhaps how you did differently 20 years

[1:12:43] ago.

[1:12:46] >> Oh, that's such a good question. I was

[1:12:48] about to just spew out what I always

[1:12:50] spew out, but let me actually answer.

[1:12:53] Let me actually let me actually think

[1:12:56] about that.

[1:12:58] Um,

[1:13:00] wow. what's arising is you don't have to

[1:13:03] do this. Um, and I think 20 years ago

[1:13:06] I'd have been like you have to do this.

[1:13:08] [laughter]

[1:13:08] I think I had a I think I had a um I

[1:13:11] used to say why do I care so much about

[1:13:13] whether people are creating or not. I

[1:13:15] used to be a little bit overinvested I

[1:13:17] think in whether other people were were

[1:13:21] creating and doing the thing that was

[1:13:24] within them. Um,

[1:13:27] I think I took it personally if people

[1:13:29] weren't, you know, I was like, I want

[1:13:31] you to have this experience.

[1:13:33] I don't want you to come all this way

[1:13:34] and not have this experience. You got to

[1:13:36] make something, whatever it is. Um,

[1:13:38] maybe maybe you don't, you know. Um, but

[1:13:41] you can if you want to and you're

[1:13:44] allowed to if you want to. And it

[1:13:48] doesn't have to.

[1:13:52] It doesn't have to it doesn't have to

[1:13:55] then

[1:13:57] turn into something huge. Um, and that's

[1:14:01] good to know because it might not, you

[1:14:05] know. Um,

[1:14:07] you can't make people want the thing you

[1:14:09] made.

[1:14:11] You just can't like no matter how well

[1:14:13] marketed it is. And I am here to attest

[1:14:15] that that is true because I have never

[1:14:17] been able to replicate Eat Pray Love.

[1:14:19] [laughter] So, you cannot make Eat Pray

[1:14:21] Love happen twice like you you can't

[1:14:24] maybe can't even make it happen once,

[1:14:26] right? Um, so but

[1:14:29] you get to play

[1:14:32] with the materials and the inspiration

[1:14:34] of the world. You get to and um and that

[1:14:39] can look like

[1:14:41] anything. It can look it can look very

[1:14:44] very very very small and it can look

[1:14:47] very very very big but nobody is

[1:14:50] excluded from that invitation. I think

[1:14:52] that's how I would say it now. whereas I

[1:14:55] think 20 years ago I might have been

[1:14:56] like if you don't do this it's going to

[1:14:58] kill you. You've got to do this. And I'm

[1:15:00] not sure that I know that to be true.

[1:15:02] Um, and I do know that my beloved friend

[1:15:06] Martha Beck recently wrote a book called

[1:15:09] Beyond Anxiety

[1:15:11] and and she did a lot of research on

[1:15:16] um

[1:15:17] neuroscience with this and what is being

[1:15:20] shown and was able to determine that the

[1:15:23] opposite of anxiety is not calm. The

[1:15:26] opposite of anxiety is creativity. So,

[1:15:30] when you're anxious and you're trying to

[1:15:31] calm down and it never works,

[1:15:34] doing even the slightest tiniest

[1:15:37] creative thing, baking something, um,

[1:15:40] coloring a coloring book, um,

[1:15:45] singing, dance, moving your body in some

[1:15:47] interesting way, like reduces anxiety.

[1:15:50] And it turns out that fear and

[1:15:52] creativity are operating from different

[1:15:55] parts of the brain. I'm doing theater

[1:15:57] right now acting like I know what I'm

[1:15:58] talking about, but this is what I've

[1:15:59] been told. Um, but apparently from what

[1:16:02] I've been told, fear and creativity are

[1:16:04] are a toggle switch. So, when the

[1:16:07] creativity toggle is operating, the fear

[1:16:09] isn't. And when the fear one is up, the

[1:16:12] creativity isn't. And so, it's a little

[1:16:15] bit of a seessaw. So, it does appear

[1:16:17] that it's very good for you um to to

[1:16:22] create, but I'm not sure that I would

[1:16:24] now say that everybody has to do it.

[1:16:27] >> But I would still say everybody gets to

[1:16:28] do it.

[1:16:30] >> What's something in your life that would

[1:16:33] may be otherwise a small mundane act in

[1:16:35] your day that you've transformed into a

[1:16:37] little bit of creativity?

[1:16:38] >> I make these little collages now. So, I

[1:16:40] sit in a lot of um a lot of my 12step

[1:16:42] meetings are on Zoom cuz a lot of 12step

[1:16:45] recovery went on Zoom during the

[1:16:46] pandemic and I travel so much that I

[1:16:48] love these Zoom meetings cuz I can get

[1:16:50] to them. Um but I

[1:16:53] I am not I really like making art and I

[1:16:57] don't know how to draw and I have a

[1:16:59] really like even if you see now I I I

[1:17:01] like vibrate [laughter]

[1:17:03] >> and it's I've always vibrated like a

[1:17:06] hummingbird.

[1:17:06] >> I'm a little hummingbird. Exactly. So,

[1:17:08] I'm like a little shaky. So, I have a

[1:17:10] shaky hand. I have terrible handwriting

[1:17:12] and I have a terrible line for drawing.

[1:17:15] Um, so I'm not precise and and but I

[1:17:19] have I actually do have like an artistic

[1:17:22] eye for what is pleasing. Um, and and I

[1:17:27] like to put things together in a way

[1:17:29] that's pleasing. So, I make these

[1:17:30] collages. So, I go to like HomeGoods and

[1:17:33] to thrift shops and I buy um really

[1:17:37] cheap frames or I buy really, you know,

[1:17:41] like cheap mass-produced art that they

[1:17:43] sell at like Marshalls [laughter]

[1:17:45] >> for for like if you you're decorating an

[1:17:48] Airbnb and you need just need some like

[1:17:50] generic art. So, I'll buy those and um

[1:17:52] or I'll go to thrift shops and buy art

[1:17:54] and then I'll modify and do stuff to it

[1:17:56] and embroider in it and like um like

[1:17:59] paste things in it and make and they're

[1:18:01] really pretty. They're really really

[1:18:03] pretty and my higher power Notorious God

[1:18:07] >> has told me that I'm not allowed to sell

[1:18:10] them. Um and I make them a lot like I'm

[1:18:12] not that God's like you have to have

[1:18:14] something

[1:18:15] >> in your life that's a creative output

[1:18:17] that is not associated with the

[1:18:18] marketplace. Do you even share them?

[1:18:20] >> I give them away.

[1:18:21] >> Okay. But like do you post them or like

[1:18:23] >> uh I put pictures of them sometimes on

[1:18:25] Substack, but I um

[1:18:27] >> but I as an illustration for like my

[1:18:30] Substack newsletter, but I'm not I'm not

[1:18:32] supposed to sell them. So uh that's

[1:18:34] assuming somebody would want to buy

[1:18:35] them, but like I could see myself going

[1:18:37] down a thing where I'm just like I make

[1:18:40] art now, you know, like and I'm having a

[1:18:42] display like I'm not I can't. So So I

[1:18:44] give them to people. So, like my

[1:18:46] favorite waitress at the diner that I go

[1:18:47] to when I'm home visiting my parents,

[1:18:49] like I noticed that she had this

[1:18:50] beautiful fern tattoo and so I made one

[1:18:53] for her that was like um you know, I

[1:18:56] wrapped it up and brought it to her and

[1:18:57] I'm like, I made this for you. And um I

[1:18:59] got inspired cuz there's a little girl

[1:19:01] in that town and in that diner that I go

[1:19:03] to, the walls are covered with her art.

[1:19:06] She's 6 years old and her mom told me

[1:19:07] that one day she woke up and said, "I

[1:19:09] just want to make art for all the people

[1:19:10] I like in town." And so she draws art

[1:19:13] and then they go to the bank and she

[1:19:14] gets one to the bank teller and she

[1:19:16] gives one to the

[1:19:17] >> person at the post office and I was like

[1:19:19] I 100% want to do that. Like I 100% want

[1:19:22] to make like little pieces of art and

[1:19:24] walk around town and give them to

[1:19:25] people. [laughter]

[1:19:27] And so that's what I do. Um so that's my

[1:19:29] that's been my creative output and I

[1:19:31] have nothing left to show for it because

[1:19:33] I've given them all away. [laughter]

[1:19:35] >> So and they're pretty they're really

[1:19:36] really really pretty. I I I and they

[1:19:39] seem to make people happy. I see these.

[1:19:41] >> Um, I'll show you some pictures of them

[1:19:43] later. Be nice.

[1:19:44] >> Yeah,

[1:19:47] >> I know you've spoken at length and a lot

[1:19:49] of us can relate when we put so much

[1:19:51] pressure on our creative passions to

[1:19:54] become profit. It can like pervert it or

[1:19:56] put so much pressure on it that distorts

[1:19:57] it into being something. And so, it's a

[1:20:00] it's an interesting thing to navigate.

[1:20:02] But,

[1:20:03] >> we did talk about how we are innately

[1:20:05] creative beings. And I've heard you

[1:20:07] share how we are walking repositories of

[1:20:09] buried treasure,

[1:20:10] >> right?

[1:20:12] >> Can you say more in regards to that?

[1:20:14] Like how much do you feel like there is

[1:20:16] within us that we have yet to give

[1:20:18] expression for?

[1:20:19] >> Oh my god. So much right. I mean I've

[1:20:24] talked about like doing a complete and

[1:20:26] fearless moral inventory in 12step like

[1:20:28] you you know you excavate yourself you

[1:20:30] find a lot in there like you find a lot

[1:20:32] of darkness but you find a lot of light

[1:20:34] too. A complete inventory includes like

[1:20:37] all of your grace and all of your

[1:20:40] kindness and all of your um care and all

[1:20:45] of your humor and all of your weirdness

[1:20:48] and all of your unique beauty. I mean,

[1:20:53] we don't even know what's in here. You

[1:20:55] know what I mean? Like, we're operating

[1:20:57] at such a surface level of it. Like,

[1:21:00] there's so much. There's so much. And

[1:21:03] then there's also a friend of mine just

[1:21:05] shared something with me that I thought

[1:21:06] was so beautiful about ancestral joy. Um

[1:21:11] that she was getting these downloads

[1:21:13] from her female ancestors who had all

[1:21:16] like suffer suffer suffer suffer suffer

[1:21:18] going all the way back to Eve, right?

[1:21:19] Which is like a lot

[1:21:20] >> ancestral trauma.

[1:21:21] >> Yeah. Like ancestral trauma. And like

[1:21:23] her she was doing meditations where her

[1:21:26] ancestors were coming to her and they

[1:21:27] were like we weren't just trauma. You

[1:21:30] know what I mean? Like we were like we

[1:21:32] also had a good time. Like we also loved

[1:21:34] who we loved. We also loved to sing. We

[1:21:37] also loved to dance. We also created. We

[1:21:39] sewed. We knitted. We cooked. We like we

[1:21:41] also loved the sky in the morning. You

[1:21:45] know, we also loved like the warmth of a

[1:21:47] person. We also loved our animals. Like

[1:21:50] there was a lot that we loved and we

[1:21:53] have we because of the trauma had a lot

[1:21:55] of unspent love and a lot of unspent joy

[1:21:59] that we also passed along to you. We

[1:22:01] didn't just pass along our darkness.

[1:22:03] Like if you could spend some of our joy

[1:22:05] that would be great cuz we didn't have a

[1:22:07] lot of opportunities sometimes to spend

[1:22:09] it. If you could spend some of our love

[1:22:11] that we didn't get to express that would

[1:22:12] be really wonderful. And if you could

[1:22:15] spend some of our creativity and

[1:22:16] sometimes I think that creative talent

[1:22:19] is in is some sort of ancestor who was

[1:22:22] like I didn't have the chance like I

[1:22:26] also was a really good musician. I

[1:22:27] didn't have the chance. I didn't have

[1:22:28] the chance. Could you could you do this

[1:22:30] kind of for me too? So there's so much

[1:22:35] delight to be expressed as well.

[1:22:39] >> Yeah. What is it? Less Brown said the

[1:22:41] richest place on the planet is the

[1:22:42] graveyard. like all the buried ideas and

[1:22:45] expressions that never got to come out.

[1:22:48] >> Yeah.

[1:22:49] >> Um and how much is just stored in in

[1:22:52] there genetically,

[1:22:54] >> ancestrally.

[1:22:55] >> Yeah.

[1:22:56] >> And I think one really big

[1:22:57] transformative idea that you shed a lot

[1:22:59] of light on is on the nature of ideas

[1:23:01] themselves as like living entities. Mhm.

[1:23:04] >> First, do you like do you really believe

[1:23:06] that like they are living entities kind

[1:23:09] of in the old Socratic like stoic kind

[1:23:11] of Greek

[1:23:13] >> conception?

[1:23:14] >> Yeah.

[1:23:14] >> Yes.

[1:23:15] >> Um and most creative people that I know

[1:23:18] experienced it that way. Um regardless

[1:23:21] of having grown up in whatever empirical

[1:23:23] culture they grew up in, most people

[1:23:26] when you talk to them about where they

[1:23:28] got their inspiration, it came to them.

[1:23:30] Like they will use the language, it came

[1:23:32] to me. Like then it came to me. Suddenly

[1:23:34] I had this idea. It came to me like even

[1:23:37] people talking about mathematical

[1:23:38] formulas and and scientific ideas are

[1:23:41] like it came you know it came to me. Um

[1:23:44] you might know the story about how Henry

[1:23:46] Ford

[1:23:48] figured out and he was totally right

[1:23:50] that there's this liinal space between

[1:23:51] sleeping and waking when you're very

[1:23:53] very very open. And um and I find when

[1:23:56] I'm working on a book, I write very

[1:23:59] early in the mornings and

[1:24:02] I will wake up and the second I'm like

[1:24:04] in that kind of gray veiled space

[1:24:08] between sleep and awakening, the

[1:24:10] solution is instantly in my mind for the

[1:24:13] narrative problem from the day before.

[1:24:15] Um to the point that I I will keep a

[1:24:17] notebook next to my bed because I'll

[1:24:19] just hear the words. I'll hear the I'm

[1:24:21] like, "Oh, there it is. There it is.

[1:24:22] There it you know, and like I'll write

[1:24:23] it down and then go back to sleep.

[1:24:25] >> Um and and forget and wake up and be

[1:24:28] like, "Ah, somebody gave me this," you

[1:24:30] know, in the middle of the night. And um

[1:24:32] and Henry Ford used to try to game that

[1:24:34] by um he would go to sleep with like he

[1:24:37] would take these little mini naps with

[1:24:38] like ball bearings in his hands and

[1:24:41] there would be metal trays underneath

[1:24:42] him. So he would sit up straight and

[1:24:44] just like go into kind of a meditative

[1:24:45] state and then when he dropped the ball

[1:24:48] bearings they would make a noise that

[1:24:49] would wake him up just enough that he'd

[1:24:51] be in the liinal space that he could

[1:24:52] catch an idea. So he was trancing

[1:24:54] himself in order to try to to to catch

[1:24:57] these ideas. So yeah, I literally feel

[1:25:00] like ideas and inspiration are spirit.

[1:25:04] Um they are external spirit that's

[1:25:07] looking for a human collaborator. And

[1:25:09] there's all kinds of evidence and I've

[1:25:10] had it in my life and every creative

[1:25:12] person I know has had it in their life

[1:25:13] where like an idea hits two people at

[1:25:15] the same time who don't even know each

[1:25:16] other and like there's all sorts of

[1:25:18] magical ways that that gets evidenced.

[1:25:20] Um, but I remember being on NPR when Big

[1:25:23] Magic came out and the very nice NPR

[1:25:26] reporter was kind of trying to save me

[1:25:28] from myself [laughter]

[1:25:30] and was [snorts] saying like, "You talk

[1:25:32] about magic. I know you don't mean

[1:25:34] magic. I know you mean that it feels

[1:25:36] like magic." I'm like, "Bitch, I

[1:25:37] literally mean magic." [laughter]

[1:25:39] Like like no, like like thank you for

[1:25:42] trying to not make me look stupid on

[1:25:43] NPR, but like I'm talking about magic.

[1:25:45] Like I'm talking about magic, which I

[1:25:48] believe in. Um, and I 100% believe that

[1:25:51] it is like coming to me from an external

[1:25:53] source. Yes. [laughter]

[1:25:56] >> And a lot of people that I know who are

[1:25:57] creative experience that way.

[1:26:00] >> Yeah. Likewise. What um cuz you also

[1:26:02] shared how they like it'll ideas will

[1:26:04] find the swiftest conduit to earth.

[1:26:07] What happens when you ignore an idea

[1:26:10] that comes to you? What does that do to

[1:26:13] a person? What happens to the idea?

[1:26:15] >> I I want to be careful cuz I don't want

[1:26:17] to like fill anybody with dread, you

[1:26:19] know, um or with a feeling that like,

[1:26:21] oh, I lost mine,

[1:26:23] >> you know. Um,

[1:26:25] I have a friend who says, "I used to

[1:26:28] think that life was a train that I got

[1:26:32] on the wrong one." You know, I used to

[1:26:35] think I got on the wrong one or I got in

[1:26:37] the wrong seat on the wrong train and

[1:26:39] that other trains were passing me by and

[1:26:41] I was supposed to be on those trains.

[1:26:43] Um, and I and she said, "I used to just

[1:26:45] feel my whole life was just missed

[1:26:47] missed train transfers." And and she's

[1:26:51] like, "I don't feel that way anymore. I

[1:26:52] don't think you can get on the wrong

[1:26:53] train.

[1:26:54] >> And um excuse me. I know that like Romas

[1:26:57] said that he's like you can't you can't

[1:27:00] do this wrong. Like you can't miss your

[1:27:04] life. There's no such thing. You didn't

[1:27:07] make a mistake big enough that you

[1:27:09] missed your life. You you marry the

[1:27:12] wrong person, then you get to go on that

[1:27:14] train. Like you get to go on marry the

[1:27:16] wrong person train and have that

[1:27:18] adventure. And that adventure is going

[1:27:20] to bring you to something that you could

[1:27:22] only get by getting on the married the

[1:27:24] wrong person train. Like

[1:27:27] favorite person that you love dies, you

[1:27:29] you get to go on that train ride and

[1:27:31] that's going to bring you to your

[1:27:33] destiny. Like every single decision you

[1:27:35] make is going to bring you to your

[1:27:37] destin. You can't miss it. You can't

[1:27:38] miss your destiny. Don't worry about it.

[1:27:40] Like take a left, your destiny's there.

[1:27:41] Take a right, your destiny's there.

[1:27:43] Create your destiny's there. Don't

[1:27:44] create your destiny is there. So, I

[1:27:47] don't want to like

[1:27:49] fill anybody with this sense that there

[1:27:50] was this moment that you had this

[1:27:52] opportunity for this this great idea and

[1:27:54] you missed it and so you are now

[1:27:56] terminally [ __ ] [laughter]

[1:27:58] [gasps]

[1:27:58] >> Like that is not what I believe. First

[1:28:00] of all, I think there's more,

[1:28:02] >> you know, I don't think the universe is

[1:28:04] like

[1:28:06] scant on ideas, you know, or like or

[1:28:09] opportunities um or notions or

[1:28:12] inspiration. I think there's plenty. I

[1:28:14] think there's plenty. And I think

[1:28:15] there's still more in you if you want.

[1:28:18] Um, and again, you don't have to. You

[1:28:20] can just hang out and then you can have

[1:28:22] hangout destiny and that's also fine.

[1:28:25] Like I really am at a place where I

[1:28:27] genuinely believing that you can't do

[1:28:29] this wrong.

[1:28:31] >> But the idea will go find someone else,

[1:28:33] [laughter]

[1:28:33] >> right?

[1:28:34] >> Like it 100% will and and like you will

[1:28:36] wake up someday and open the New York

[1:28:37] Times and somebody wrote your book. Like

[1:28:39] I've had that happen to me. Everybody I

[1:28:41] know has had that happen to them at some

[1:28:42] level. So and that's okay. Hey, there's

[1:28:45] another one

[1:28:46] >> and then they get to have that journey,

[1:28:48] >> you know, good for them.

[1:28:50] [laughter]

[1:28:50] >> But there's something when you do, you

[1:28:52] know, catch the butterfly, so to speak,

[1:28:54] or you this this lightning bolt of

[1:28:56] inspiration happens where when you do

[1:29:00] follow it and pull on that thread, you

[1:29:02] surely learn a lot about yourself in

[1:29:04] that process, if that is so the train

[1:29:05] that you hop on, right? That's that's

[1:29:07] that's for you.

[1:29:08] >> Yeah. And um I find the topic of

[1:29:11] multiple discoveries incredibly

[1:29:13] fascinating how that really happens. I

[1:29:14] know Michael Jackson was like interviews

[1:29:16] saying I I stay up late into the hours

[1:29:18] cuz if I don't catch this idea then

[1:29:20] Prince will get it.

[1:29:21] >> I love that. I [laughter]

[1:29:22] 100% love that. I 100% love that.

[1:29:27] >> Um and I think so many of us do feel I I

[1:29:30] love the I love the reminder you gave

[1:29:32] and a lot of us feel

[1:29:33] >> but time out. Look how Michael Jackson

[1:29:34] and Prince both died, right? So that

[1:29:36] urgency might also not be great.

[1:29:41] >> Totally.

[1:29:42] >> Just saying.

[1:29:43] >> No, 100%.

[1:29:45] >> You know,

[1:29:46] >> yeah, I think we we glamorize the

[1:29:48] highlight reel of someone's success

[1:29:50] without the real suffering they endured

[1:29:52] and ended their life with. So

[1:29:53] >> yeah,

[1:29:54] >> totally.

[1:29:55] >> Yeah.

[1:29:55] >> Yeah.

[1:29:56] >> Sorry I interrupted you, but I just had

[1:29:57] to say like maybe we don't want to

[1:30:00] >> go that hard. [laughter]

[1:30:03] >> [snorts]

[1:30:04] >> Um, but I think on most people's

[1:30:06] conception of like what a life

[1:30:08] well-lived is is

[1:30:10] >> both self-realization and

[1:30:11] self-actualization like living your life

[1:30:13] in expression to what you most value and

[1:30:16] the ideas that are correlated with that

[1:30:19] and

[1:30:20] um

[1:30:22] you give this distinction around genius

[1:30:25] >> which I think is

[1:30:27] >> fitting here because

[1:30:29] >> not to say that we all want to become a

[1:30:31] genius But we all would like to discover

[1:30:33] what is our genius or the genius that

[1:30:35] will have us.

[1:30:36] >> Yeah.

[1:30:36] >> So what do you think is what happens

[1:30:38] after a life of following these ideas

[1:30:40] and letting them take you so to speak

[1:30:42] what can come up?

[1:30:43] >> I'll give you an example like a lot of

[1:30:44] times what I see cuz I do a lot of

[1:30:47] events and people have questions and

[1:30:48] there are certain questions that come up

[1:30:50] again and again and that's how I know

[1:30:51] that it's in the collective zeitgeist.

[1:30:54] It's our shared anxiety like and one of

[1:30:56] the questions that people have is like I

[1:30:59] have this idea

[1:31:02] And there's almost like a energy cost

[1:31:05] benefit analysis that they're doing on

[1:31:06] it, which is like I want to write I I'll

[1:31:09] just use book because that's what people

[1:31:11] come to me a lot with. I want to write a

[1:31:12] book, but it's going to take a huge

[1:31:16] amount of energy and it may end up being

[1:31:19] nothing. Like how why

[1:31:23] [laughter]

[1:31:24] and why should I do that? Um,

[1:31:28] going back to the thing we shared at the

[1:31:30] beginning of this conversation of God

[1:31:31] saying to me, "Will you come with me

[1:31:32] even if I make no assurances?" Every one

[1:31:35] of my books has also said that in a way

[1:31:37] like, "Will you come with me even if I

[1:31:39] make no assurances?" And and it's very

[1:31:43] hard to answer that question in some

[1:31:45] sort of promising way because I don't

[1:31:47] want to ever promise anybody that

[1:31:50] they're going to have any success

[1:31:51] because that's so impossible to promise.

[1:31:55] And I know we all want to think we can

[1:31:57] manifest everything, but I'm not I'm not

[1:31:59] sure that we can control outcome. And so

[1:32:04] what I will say is I can't promise you

[1:32:09] that you're a good writer. I have no

[1:32:10] idea. Like you don't know. I don't know.

[1:32:13] Who knows? Um I've also seen books

[1:32:16] written. I'm thinking of two

[1:32:18] particularly in my mind that people that

[1:32:20] I know have written books that I thought

[1:32:21] were freaking great that never got

[1:32:24] published.

[1:32:25] And so I can't even promise you that if

[1:32:27] your book is great that it and like I

[1:32:28] threw all my weight behind trying to get

[1:32:30] those books published and could not

[1:32:33] could not make it happen. And like it's

[1:32:35] bewildering to me. I'm like these both

[1:32:37] of these books are so much better than

[1:32:39] 90% of the books that are out there. So

[1:32:41] you might be a good writer and you might

[1:32:42] write something that's better than 90%

[1:32:45] of the things out there and it still

[1:32:47] might not be published. It might be

[1:32:49] published and it might not sell. It

[1:32:51] might be published and it might get

[1:32:52] terrible reviews. It might be published

[1:32:54] and you might get cancelled. It might

[1:32:55] get be published and your family may

[1:32:58] never invite you to Thanksgiving dinner

[1:32:59] again because of the things you revealed

[1:33:01] in that book. Um, you might get sued.

[1:33:04] Like I don't know

[1:33:06] any version of a lot of those things

[1:33:07] have happened to me, you know, and like

[1:33:09] have happened to a lot of people that I

[1:33:11] know. So I can't promise you anything

[1:33:13] except for I can absolutely promise you

[1:33:16] that if you sit down and tell that story

[1:33:19] that is within you by the end of that

[1:33:21] you will be a different person than you

[1:33:24] were at the beginning of that

[1:33:25] experience. It 100% you will be altered

[1:33:28] by it. And don't you want to kind of

[1:33:31] know who you become? Like can that be

[1:33:35] enough of a reason to do something?

[1:33:37] Like, don't you kind of want to know who

[1:33:38] you'll be if you actually do that thing?

[1:33:41] And if the answer to that is yes, then

[1:33:43] that that has to be enough. That has to

[1:33:46] be enough because nothing else is

[1:33:48] assured.

[1:33:50] Most people astonished with your work

[1:33:52] have no idea to the degree and neither

[1:33:54] do I of of the dedication and devotion

[1:33:56] and commitment that was required to do

[1:33:59] the work. As Picasso's quoted, you know,

[1:34:01] inspiration exists, but it must find you

[1:34:03] working,

[1:34:03] >> right? So talk to me about the the

[1:34:06] effort that's required to arrive at a

[1:34:08] place of those effortless magical

[1:34:11] moments of insight.

[1:34:13] >> Well, yeah, you got to prepare the field

[1:34:15] for the seed, you know. Um, like

[1:34:20] it's funny. There's something in me

[1:34:22] that's resisting talking about this cuz

[1:34:23] I I'm coming out of sabbatical and my

[1:34:25] whole body just went like I don't want

[1:34:27] to talk about discipline, but I'll talk

[1:34:30] about discipline. Um, for me what it

[1:34:33] looks like for me what it looks like is

[1:34:36] like I become a marine. I become

[1:34:40] a marine. Like I am

[1:34:44] the only way I know how to do it. And it

[1:34:46] doesn't mean that's the only way it

[1:34:48] needs to be done, but this is the only

[1:34:49] way that I've known how to do it. Um,

[1:34:53] it has to be for me, all right, we're

[1:34:57] going to get up at before dawn. We have

[1:34:59] to get up before everybody else. Like

[1:35:00] for me, I I want to be up before the

[1:35:04] world starts annoying me um and knocking

[1:35:08] on my door and demanding my attention.

[1:35:10] So that's early. And most of my books

[1:35:14] are really heavily researched, whether

[1:35:15] they're fiction or non-fiction. Um and

[1:35:19] so there's usually 2 to 3 years of

[1:35:23] research before I even begin. Um, Big

[1:35:26] Magic wasn't like that because I had

[1:35:28] been living researching it um, for so

[1:35:31] long that when I finally decided to sit

[1:35:33] down and write it, I just I'd actually

[1:35:35] collected all of these books about the

[1:35:37] history of creativity. I had like a

[1:35:39] whole wall of books about like

[1:35:40] creativity and creative process and the

[1:35:42] associations of creativity and

[1:35:44] depression and schizophrenia and like

[1:35:45] the neuroscience of creativity. And one

[1:35:47] morning I looked at that and I was like,

[1:35:49] I will jump off a roof if I have to read

[1:35:51] any of these books. I know what I want

[1:35:52] to say about creativity and I'm just

[1:35:54] going to sit down and say it. And that

[1:35:55] became big magic. But most of my books

[1:35:57] are very very heavily researched and

[1:36:00] through this intricate note card system

[1:36:02] that I have um involving like index

[1:36:05] cards and shoe boxes and files. It's

[1:36:07] very autistic um and very like train

[1:36:10] schedulually like it's very nuanced. And

[1:36:12] then um and then when I actually sit

[1:36:15] down to begin writing the book um I

[1:36:19] clear my life away. Like I let everybody

[1:36:22] know you're not going to see me for at

[1:36:24] least 3 months and it's kind of like I'm

[1:36:27] a monk kind of like I'm a marine. Um I

[1:36:30] cancel everything in advance. I like lay

[1:36:33] the groundwork and and I begin. And um

[1:36:37] it's a little bit like swimming the

[1:36:38] English Channel in one breath for me.

[1:36:40] like I I just sit down and I'm like

[1:36:41] we're going to do this until it's done

[1:36:43] and nothing else matters and nothing

[1:36:44] else does matter for me when I'm in that

[1:36:46] state. It costs me a lot physically. Um

[1:36:50] and it costs me a lot of like life that

[1:36:53] I'm not experiencing cuz I'm shutting

[1:36:55] out life. Um

[1:36:58] a lot of invitations that I have to say

[1:37:00] no to, a lot of fun things that other

[1:37:01] people are doing. Um a lot of

[1:37:05] connection.

[1:37:06] But it's the most fun once it starts

[1:37:09] like and and I'm always like why am I

[1:37:11] doing this? Why am I doing this to

[1:37:13] myself? But once it starts it's when I'm

[1:37:16] in the vibe of that there's no it's I

[1:37:21] feel more like myself

[1:37:23] than any other time except probably when

[1:37:25] I'm in prayer. And I think actually for

[1:37:28] me writing was the first experience that

[1:37:31] I had of feeling like an intelligence

[1:37:34] beyond. Something is guiding it.

[1:37:35] Something is moving it. Um my rule when

[1:37:38] I first begin is because it's so hard to

[1:37:41] get into it is I write by the clock, not

[1:37:43] by the word. So, I'll just say you've

[1:37:46] got you have to sit at this chair for 1

[1:37:48] hour and you're not allowed to stand up

[1:37:50] and you're not allowed to look at the

[1:37:51] internet and you just have to be present

[1:37:53] to this project for 1 hour. And at the

[1:37:55] end of the hour when the timer goes off,

[1:37:56] you're allowed to get up and leave and

[1:37:57] that's considered a good hour of work

[1:37:59] regardless of what was created. But then

[1:38:01] once I get going in the zone, um it's

[1:38:05] magic. Like magic starts happening. Time

[1:38:07] drops away. Three hours have passed and

[1:38:10] it feels like two minutes. All the stuff

[1:38:11] that they promised meditation would do.

[1:38:14] like starts to happen like real and like

[1:38:17] I write better than I can you know um

[1:38:19] like at the beginning it's definitely me

[1:38:21] writing but then things happen where I'm

[1:38:22] like that's much better writing than I

[1:38:24] than I can do something else is doing

[1:38:26] this now something else is moving this

[1:38:28] this whole thing and that's extremely

[1:38:30] thrilling

[1:38:31] >> um and very energetically tiring but

[1:38:34] wonderful

[1:38:37] [snorts]

[1:38:37] >> it's the best but I don't want to do it

[1:38:39] for a long time now cuz I'm enjoying not

[1:38:41] being at that level of like vibration at

[1:38:44] that level.

[1:38:45] >> Yeah. I think Theonius Monk said the

[1:38:48] genius is the one most like himself. And

[1:38:51] >> you said you feel like the most like

[1:38:52] yourself when you're in that pocket.

[1:38:54] >> Yeah.

[1:38:54] >> It's your own monk version.

[1:38:56] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:38:57] >> Both versions of monk.

[1:38:58] >> Yeah. Lizzy monk. [laughter]

[1:39:01] Um,

[1:39:03] >> and I'm curious, what do you think about

[1:39:05] the

[1:39:08] what it reveals about what we actually

[1:39:10] really loved and were naturally drawn to

[1:39:12] repeatedly as a child and how that's an

[1:39:14] indicator potentially of what will make

[1:39:16] us most come alive as as an adult.

[1:39:18] >> Well, children intuitively do all this

[1:39:20] stuff.

[1:39:21] >> Mhm. you know, um, like

[1:39:24] they dance, they sing, they make up

[1:39:27] stories, they do theater, they draw, um,

[1:39:32] they do all that stuff. They just do

[1:39:34] they just do it. Like, they know to do

[1:39:36] it. They know that it's theirs. They

[1:39:37] know they're allowed to do it. Um, most

[1:39:40] of us can point to an exact moment in

[1:39:43] childhood where that lack of

[1:39:46] self-consciousness was taken away. Um,

[1:39:49] and that's what Bnee Brown calls art

[1:39:51] scars, and everybody has them, where

[1:39:55] somebody told you, the teacher said,

[1:39:56] like, you're not a good singer, so you

[1:39:58] stand in the back and just move your

[1:40:00] mouth during this point. And like for

[1:40:01] some people, that was the last time they

[1:40:02] ever sang, you know, like up until then,

[1:40:05] they didn't know that you had to be a

[1:40:06] good singer to sing. They just sing, you

[1:40:09] know, and then it's like, oh, now I

[1:40:10] don't sing. Um, you're not a good

[1:40:12] dancer. You're you're not a good draw.

[1:40:14] Here's this person in the class is the

[1:40:16] one who's the good artist. And that's

[1:40:17] when the sorting hat starts, you know,

[1:40:20] where it's like this person is talented,

[1:40:22] you're not. This person is a good

[1:40:23] dancer, you're not. This person is a

[1:40:24] good singer, you're not. This one is the

[1:40:26] writer, you are not. And creativity is

[1:40:28] taken from you. And um for some people

[1:40:32] that's the end of the story, you know,

[1:40:35] and we live in a culture that separates

[1:40:37] people out that way where it's like

[1:40:38] these people are creative and these

[1:40:39] people are producers and consumers.

[1:40:42] And if you're not, if you don't get to

[1:40:44] be in the creative class, then you're

[1:40:45] just stuck producer and consumer. And

[1:40:48] but like I've lived in like I've

[1:40:51] traveled and lived in cultures where

[1:40:52] that is not the way. Where there's no

[1:40:54] such thing as somebody who doesn't

[1:40:55] dance. Like when the community gets

[1:40:58] together, everybody dances. When the

[1:41:01] community gets together, everybody

[1:41:02] sings. Like I used to live in Bali next

[1:41:04] to a like one of the community buildings

[1:41:07] where people would come and like have

[1:41:10] these these huge you know orchestras and

[1:41:13] singing and drums and chimes and

[1:41:15] everything and like no one's like oh

[1:41:18] Danny doesn't [laughter]

[1:41:20] like oh Karen doesn't do that because

[1:41:22] she doesn't have good pitch. It's like

[1:41:24] no everybody does that. And there's

[1:41:27] something that's been determined that

[1:41:29] collectively happens when people sing

[1:41:30] together. Their hearts co-regulate,

[1:41:33] their breathing co-regulates. Like, it's

[1:41:35] good for you. Like, all of this stuff is

[1:41:37] really good for you and it's fun. Um,

[1:41:40] and it's meant to be fun. So, to cast

[1:41:43] yourself out of that because somebody in

[1:41:45] fourth grade made a disparaging comment

[1:41:48] about your version of that is really is

[1:41:51] a tragedy. But you can reclaim it

[1:41:55] >> at any time, I believe.

[1:41:57] >> What's the single most useful thing you

[1:42:00] you could someone could do in your

[1:42:02] experience to reclaim it?

[1:42:04] >> A group,

[1:42:06] I think. You know, we have this version

[1:42:08] of the artist as like the great man

[1:42:11] living in the Garrett apartment in

[1:42:13] Paris. And I kind of do that play that

[1:42:16] role when I when I write to a certain

[1:42:18] extent. But I had a long time in my 20s

[1:42:21] where after college, I decided not to go

[1:42:24] to graduate school. I don't have a

[1:42:25] graduate degree in or an MFA in

[1:42:27] anything. I knew it would cost me too

[1:42:28] much. I I didn't have the money and I

[1:42:31] didn't want to go into debt. And somehow

[1:42:32] I had some intuition that it that I'd be

[1:42:34] better off not in a room with a bunch of

[1:42:37] other people trying to find their voice.

[1:42:39] Um but I created a group. Um and for

[1:42:43] reasons that are lost to history, we

[1:42:44] called ourselves the Fat Kids. I cannot

[1:42:46] remember why. [laughter]

[1:42:47] And there were six of us and it was some

[1:42:50] people I went to college with and some

[1:42:51] people that I worked with and knew from

[1:42:52] my bartending and waitressing who wanted

[1:42:54] to write. And we met twice a month for

[1:42:57] like four or five years and we brought

[1:43:02] what we were working on, you know,

[1:43:04] whatever we wanted to write and

[1:43:07] everybody we took turns where it was

[1:43:09] some one person's week and they would

[1:43:10] bring something that they were working

[1:43:11] on. Um, and my first book was pretty

[1:43:15] much written that way because there

[1:43:17] wasn't a lot of other motive to do it.

[1:43:19] Nobody was knocking on my door and

[1:43:21] saying, "We hear we heard there's a good

[1:43:23] unpublished writer living here."

[1:43:24] [laughter]

[1:43:26] So, I had to create like a reason to do

[1:43:29] something. And so, the reason to do

[1:43:30] something were these deadlines that we

[1:43:32] had in the group. And um, and yeah, my

[1:43:36] first novel too was like largely written

[1:43:38] with the help of the fat kids. It's like

[1:43:40] in the acknowledgements of my first

[1:43:42] novel, it's like thanks to the fat kids.

[1:43:44] >> Um, we

[1:43:45] >> out of context.

[1:43:46] >> Yeah. Out of context, just no

[1:43:47] explanation of what that means. Um, so

[1:43:51] even the most private art forms, I mean,

[1:43:54] I think of writing as maybe the most

[1:43:57] >> private. Um, you can still get help from

[1:44:01] other people. You're not supposed to do

[1:44:03] this by yourself.

[1:44:04] >> Um, so if there isn't a group, make one.

[1:44:07] like invite people. I've been doing this

[1:44:10] thing at my house and I share this idea

[1:44:12] with anybody who wants to do it. Um I

[1:44:16] have these days um called quiet art days

[1:44:19] and I I live in an old church so it's a

[1:44:21] very inspirational space anyway. But I

[1:44:24] invite like five or six women over and

[1:44:27] we the rule is this. We we do this

[1:44:30] 30-inut breath meditation and then we do

[1:44:33] 30 minutes of listening to this

[1:44:34] recording of sound bowls. like an hour

[1:44:36] of breath meditation and sound bowls and

[1:44:39] then the next 2 hours nobody's allowed

[1:44:41] to speak and you can go take a place

[1:44:43] anywhere in the house bring anything

[1:44:45] that you're working on the only rules

[1:44:47] are no speaking and nothing electronic

[1:44:49] so no laptops no phones and I lay out

[1:44:53] all sorts of art supplies and you can

[1:44:56] just play with the art supplies you can

[1:44:57] take a nap you can go for a walk you can

[1:45:00] um draw you can paint but you can't talk

[1:45:03] and you can't be on the internet.

[1:45:05] >> Wow.

[1:45:06] >> And um and so we spend essentially 3

[1:45:09] hours in silence. 1 hour of um the

[1:45:12] singing bowls and then 2 hours of the

[1:45:13] creativity and then we break then I like

[1:45:16] >> do a gong and then we eat eat dinner

[1:45:18] together and talk

[1:45:19] >> and um or you can leave. If you're just

[1:45:21] in the vibe and you don't want to break

[1:45:23] it with speech, you can just go.

[1:45:24] >> I want to come.

[1:45:25] >> It's really good. So you can do you

[1:45:28] don't have to wait for somebody to make

[1:45:30] things like that. like you can invite

[1:45:32] people into creative spaces with you and

[1:45:35] it's less lonely and less scary.

[1:45:39] >> I think we're seeing this return to the

[1:45:41] imperfection of the human creative

[1:45:43] pursuit and music and art and everything

[1:45:45] as AI is continuing to grow.

[1:45:48] >> What do you think is the danger of

[1:45:49] letting AI take over your creative

[1:45:52] expression?

[1:45:53] >> It's so tempting, right? cuz it's like

[1:45:56] it's going to get like somebody said

[1:45:58] it's going to be like a year in a year

[1:46:00] or two like AI is going to be able to

[1:46:01] write a novel that's good you know um

[1:46:05] and I'm like I bet it'll be sooner than

[1:46:06] that and and somebody asked me like how

[1:46:10] do you feel about the fact that AI could

[1:46:12] write a better novel than you someday

[1:46:14] and I'm like there's already people who

[1:46:15] can write better novels than me

[1:46:16] [laughter] like that's been that's been

[1:46:19] my reality my entire life like every

[1:46:21] single creative thing that I do there

[1:46:22] are people who do it better you know Um,

[1:46:25] so who I think do it better. So that

[1:46:28] can't be a reason to not create is that

[1:46:30] there's some intelligence that can do it

[1:46:32] better. That already is the case, right?

[1:46:34] So I'm not going to compete with AI if I

[1:46:37] don't compete with Anne Patchet.

[1:46:39] [laughter]

[1:46:40] >> Sure.

[1:46:40] >> Like I can be friendly with AI the same

[1:46:42] way I'm friendly with Anne Patchet. Um,

[1:46:44] so I'm sure it's tempting. Um,

[1:46:48] but I think you'll miss the fun,

[1:46:51] right? I think it's sort of the question

[1:46:54] is like what are you doing this for? Are

[1:46:56] you doing this to be the best at it or

[1:46:58] are you doing this to have the

[1:47:00] experience of it? And so yeah, AI could

[1:47:03] do it for you, but then you don't get to

[1:47:07] go on the ride. You just get to operate

[1:47:09] the robot.

[1:47:11] That doesn't seem as much fun for me.

[1:47:13] [laughter]

[1:47:16] >> No. And yeah, as they're getting more

[1:47:18] and more capable,

[1:47:20] there is something particular with AI

[1:47:23] music that I noticed this like

[1:47:26] uh that just the perfection of the

[1:47:28] voices that that it generates is like

[1:47:30] immediately I can tell it's AI that

[1:47:33] feels devoid of

[1:47:36] we want to be moved by stories that are

[1:47:37] authentic, right? And so if it's like a

[1:47:39] machine generating a thing that sounds

[1:47:41] great, which some of them sound really

[1:47:43] cool and just like books, I'm sure that

[1:47:45] he'll write beautiful.

[1:47:47] >> I don't know. I suppose there's do you

[1:47:49] feel like what makes it magical is that

[1:47:52] it came from somebody who was in a

[1:47:53] process of discovery and it was

[1:47:55] authentic and that or do you do you not

[1:47:57] make it so precious?

[1:47:59] >> I think that is precious.

[1:48:00] >> Yeah. you know, and I think that is

[1:48:02] magical. And um,

[1:48:05] you know, I think AI will get so good

[1:48:07] that it'll make music that doesn't sound

[1:48:09] like AI.

[1:48:10] >> Yeah.

[1:48:10] >> You know, it's only a matter of time,

[1:48:12] you know, um, and it will write I mean

[1:48:15] already some I can't remember who some

[1:48:17] poet did an experiment where they said,

[1:48:20] "Write a poem like me." And then they

[1:48:22] wrote a poem and they put it on the

[1:48:24] internet and said, "Which one do you

[1:48:25] think I wrote?" And most people chose

[1:48:27] the AI one. And it was he was like it's

[1:48:29] better than mine you know like or and

[1:48:31] you were fooled like you thought I wrote

[1:48:33] this.

[1:48:36] So this is gonna really

[1:48:39] put our feet to the fire as to why we

[1:48:41] create.

[1:48:43] You know, like

[1:48:45] I have a friend whose kid is in music

[1:48:48] school at NYU right now and he's like,

[1:48:50] "The only ones who are going to be left

[1:48:53] doing it are the people who just love

[1:48:54] doing it because all the other reasons

[1:48:57] are going to fall away. You're not going

[1:48:59] to be a who knows, you're not going to

[1:49:00] be able to make a living from it anymore

[1:49:02] or the robots will do it better or like

[1:49:05] whatever. There'll be all kinds of all

[1:49:07] of those external sources. Going back to

[1:49:10] our original conversation about seeking

[1:49:13] the external, like all of those external

[1:49:16] forces might just go away. And then

[1:49:18] who's going to be left making something

[1:49:21] with their hands? Somebody who wants to

[1:49:23] make something with their hands. And

[1:49:25] what's going to be the reason to bother

[1:49:27] doing it? The same reason our ancestors

[1:49:29] did it because it's pleasing.

[1:49:33] You know, it's pleasing. I get most of

[1:49:35] the art that's ever been made in the

[1:49:36] entire world was not generated.

[1:49:40] Nobody made any money from it.

[1:49:42] >> Like you made it because it because it

[1:49:44] was pleasing. It was beautiful to make.

[1:49:46] My grandparents were dust farm

[1:49:49] depression era Swedish Lutheran dairy

[1:49:52] farmers. Like the least woo woo fanciful

[1:49:55] people in the entire world. And both of

[1:49:57] my grandparents made beautiful art. Um

[1:50:00] everyone did. They didn't have mass

[1:50:01] media. So what do you do on those long

[1:50:04] cold nights like when all the chores are

[1:50:06] done? You make something with your

[1:50:08] hands. And my grandmother made these

[1:50:10] quilts that are like works of art. Her

[1:50:13] aunts, her descendants have them framed

[1:50:15] on their walls. And my grandfather

[1:50:18] did woodworking that was more beautiful

[1:50:21] than it needed to be for a guy who had

[1:50:23] no sentimentality.

[1:50:25] You know, like why did he bother to make

[1:50:29] something more beautiful than it needed

[1:50:31] to be? because it was pleasing to him.

[1:50:34] And I think in the end, that's what it's

[1:50:37] going to come down to.

[1:50:41] >> I uh No, I I couldn't I couldn't agree

[1:50:43] more. I think we're already seeing it be

[1:50:45] highlighted across the board. And um

[1:50:50] I'm uh I'm curious just to kind of wrap

[1:50:52] a bow and kind of full come full circle

[1:50:55] within this conversation. you started

[1:50:57] sharing more about your two-way prayer

[1:50:59] and that practice that you have. Are you

[1:51:02] doing that every morning still?

[1:51:03] >> Mhm.

[1:51:04] >> And how long does that take usually?

[1:51:08] >> Half an hour, 45 minutes.

[1:51:09] >> And if somebody wanted to do it tomorrow

[1:51:11] morning, what would they do?

[1:51:13] >> Oh, well,

[1:51:15] if you can get on Substack

[1:51:17] >> Yeah.

[1:51:17] >> and go to I have a Substack called

[1:51:19] Letters from Love

[1:51:21] >> and there's instructions there on how to

[1:51:23] do it. And there's a community going

[1:51:24] back to the idea of we can do this in

[1:51:26] community. There's a community of people

[1:51:27] doing it. And you already told me you

[1:51:29] were going to do [laughter]

[1:51:31] >> Yeah.

[1:51:31] >> But I can but I can say,

[1:51:35] you know, I can say where this came to

[1:51:37] me. I now have found out that it's

[1:51:39] called two-way prayer. I didn't know

[1:51:40] that it was called something when I

[1:51:42] started doing it two 20 years ago. Um I

[1:51:45] it came to me in my time of the lowest

[1:51:47] depression I've ever been in my life

[1:51:48] after the end of my first marriage. um

[1:51:52] when I had no tools, I had no

[1:51:53] spirituality. I was just out there

[1:51:56] roughing it, you know. And um one night,

[1:52:00] one sleepless night,

[1:52:03] a voice that I now would call God came

[1:52:05] to me and said, "Just get out of bed and

[1:52:07] get a notebook and write yourself

[1:52:09] everything you've always wanted to hear

[1:52:11] somebody say to you." Cuz I was so

[1:52:12] lonely and I was so heartbroken. And and

[1:52:15] I did it. and that voice and I you know

[1:52:20] you know what you've always wanted to

[1:52:21] hear somebody say to you write that down

[1:52:24] like to yourself and so for me it'll be

[1:52:28] different maybe for other people but

[1:52:30] mine was

[1:52:32] I'm not going anywhere like dear Lizzy

[1:52:36] I'm here with you I am not going

[1:52:38] anywhere I am not leaving

[1:52:42] I'm here and you don't have to do

[1:52:45] anything to earn earn that and you don't

[1:52:48] have to. You can't lose it. You can't

[1:52:51] earn it. You can't earn this love and

[1:52:53] you can't lose this love. This is your

[1:52:55] inheritance and you've always had it.

[1:52:58] And I was with you at the moment of your

[1:53:00] birth. I'll be with you at the moment of

[1:53:01] your death. Everyone can come and go.

[1:53:04] Everybody else can leave. I'm with you.

[1:53:07] I've got you. And you don't have to

[1:53:10] impress me. And you don't have to get

[1:53:14] better. cuz I was in a real depression

[1:53:16] at that point. Like you don't have to

[1:53:17] get well. You can be this [ __ ] up

[1:53:21] forever. You can be this low. You can be

[1:53:23] this depressed. You can be this ashamed.

[1:53:25] You cannot improve.

[1:53:27] And I will I will love you entirely. We

[1:53:30] can live in a box under a bridge yelling

[1:53:32] at people when they walk by. Love you.

[1:53:35] Like I love being with you there. Like

[1:53:38] you are my love and that will not alter.

[1:53:44] and if you need to stay up all night

[1:53:45] tonight cuz you can't sleep, I will sit

[1:53:48] with you and I will just repeat this.

[1:53:50] And that's where it came to me. That's

[1:53:51] where I started doing the practice. And

[1:53:52] then I found out that there's this thing

[1:53:54] called two-way prayer, which is that,

[1:53:56] [laughter]

[1:53:57] you know, one way prayer is like

[1:53:58] beseeching God. Two-way prayer is

[1:54:00] listening. It's like I'm going to ask

[1:54:02] you a question, you give me the answer,

[1:54:04] and I write the answer down. So, you can

[1:54:06] do that. You can just you can just write

[1:54:09] your name. It actually really helps.

[1:54:11] I've learned if you use a nickname, an

[1:54:13] affectionate nickname, it softens your

[1:54:15] heart toward yourself. So God calls me

[1:54:17] Honeyhead and love and um little one and

[1:54:22] Lizzy. Like these are all softening

[1:54:25] nicknames. So you you can use a

[1:54:27] softening nickname and then you just

[1:54:30] write what you wish somebody would tell

[1:54:32] you. You just write what you need to

[1:54:34] hear or you listen to see if you can

[1:54:37] hear what love would want you to know.

[1:54:39] And that's available to everybody. And I

[1:54:41] was telling you before we started the

[1:54:43] interview that one of the things I find

[1:54:45] most amazing now on that Substack

[1:54:46] because there's 200,000 people there now

[1:54:48] doing this is that when people share

[1:54:50] their letters, there are some people on

[1:54:52] there who have never had any experiences

[1:54:53] of being loved. Like people who grew up

[1:54:56] in such extreme abuse and such extreme

[1:54:58] neglect and they have access to this

[1:55:01] voice. So you didn't you didn't have to

[1:55:04] have someone model for you what it looks

[1:55:06] like to love at this level to experience

[1:55:09] love at this level. And that's really

[1:55:10] good news cuz a lot of us never got

[1:55:12] that. So you can have it anyway. And I

[1:55:16] think that's the really magical thing to

[1:55:18] know.

[1:55:21] >> So beautifully said. Could we try a

[1:55:23] little exercise? Maybe like this is a

[1:55:25] two-way prayer in and of itself. Maybe

[1:55:27] I'll ask a question and and you can

[1:55:29] channel the god.

[1:55:31] >> How about you ask and you channel go.

[1:55:34] >> Okay.

[1:55:35] >> Cuz if it'll be my answer and I'd rather

[1:55:38] hear yours.

[1:55:38] >> Yeah. But I want to hear your answer.

[1:55:40] [laughter]

[1:55:41] >> Okay. How about you ask a question and

[1:55:43] we sit for a minute and then see what we

[1:55:45] heard.

[1:55:45] >> Okay. Okay.

[1:55:46] >> Great.

[1:55:48] Um,

[1:55:55] what what comes to mind is a soul that's

[1:55:58] about to incarnate into Earth school.

[1:56:00] What are the instructions?

[1:56:02] >> Oh gosh. [laughter]

[1:56:07] >> It just

[1:56:09] What'd you hear?

[1:56:10] >> You already got something.

[1:56:12] >> I got mine.

[1:56:13] >> Okay. Wait. Let her read.

[1:56:14] >> But I But why don't you ask yours

[1:56:18] >> and maybe keep it specific. What are

[1:56:19] your instructions? Ask it like you came

[1:56:22] here and incarnated to Earth school.

[1:56:24] What are your instructions?

[1:56:25] >> Do you want to say yours and then I'll

[1:56:27] do you want me to think on it first?

[1:56:29] >> I think you should before I say my

[1:56:30] instruction.

[1:56:31] >> Okay.

[1:56:32] >> I already know anyway.

[1:56:33] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:56:34] >> Um

[1:56:36] >> what are my instructions? I incarnated

[1:56:37] here.

[1:56:50] Yeah, mine I feel like I got mine.

[1:56:53] >> Mine is stay close.

[1:56:54] >> Stay close to me.

[1:56:56] >> Stay close to this voice.

[1:56:59] >> Mine was love everyone.

[1:57:01] >> Same same. [laughter]

[1:57:03] >> Same same.

[1:57:05] Stay close. Love every

[1:57:06] >> You know what?

[1:57:08] You might be an extrovert and I might be

[1:57:09] an introvert. M

[1:57:10] >> um because I've also heard that like if

[1:57:14] your even though I present very

[1:57:15] extroverted and my answers are always

[1:57:20] about in here.

[1:57:21] >> Yeah.

[1:57:21] >> And yours was out here.

[1:57:24] >> So even if you're like a quiet and

[1:57:26] private person, your your love might be

[1:57:29] this. And um that's an sort of

[1:57:32] extroverted version of that. Love

[1:57:34] everybody. And mine is stay close. It's

[1:57:38] here.

[1:57:39] >> Mhm.

[1:57:40] Yeah. Yeah. No, it also feels like

[1:57:41] that's a bit more intimate. Yours is

[1:57:44] almost an instruction for you in

[1:57:46] relation to God. Mine was almost my

[1:57:48] relationship to the external in a sense.

[1:57:50] So,

[1:57:51] >> basically what you just said.

[1:57:52] >> Yeah. Exactly. But the right answer.

[1:57:54] >> Mhm.

[1:57:55] >> And not hard to find, right?

[1:57:57] >> Yeah. I was I was thinking it was going

[1:57:59] to take a it would be a longer spiel.

[1:58:01] >> I'm telling you, this is [laughter] the

[1:58:02] thing. This is the thing. God's like,

[1:58:04] I'm not a mystery.

[1:58:07] >> [laughter]

[1:58:08] >> I I'm here like what do you want to

[1:58:11] know?

[1:58:12] >> Yeah.

[1:58:12] >> You know, and if your intentions are

[1:58:14] pure and you really want to know, the

[1:58:18] answer will be there.

[1:58:21] >> Yeah. I say it so often that uh like

[1:58:24] when you get quiet, what needs to be

[1:58:26] heard grows loud. Yeah.

[1:58:27] >> And it seems like this practice of yours

[1:58:29] has been getting to that space of quiet

[1:58:32] and seeing what wants to be heard. And I

[1:58:35] could only imagine what would happen on

[1:58:38] the like a civil civilizational level if

[1:58:41] everyone had that as a practice.

[1:58:43] >> I know, right?

[1:58:44] >> And they had that connection and stayed

[1:58:46] close to that that because we feel so

[1:58:49] alone like the loneliness epidemic is so

[1:58:51] real and when you build that

[1:58:53] relationship with something that isn't

[1:58:55] um impermanent, you know, it feels like

[1:58:59] you always have something to to be with

[1:59:01] to lean on.

[1:59:03] I think that there have probably been

[1:59:05] cultures where everybody was that

[1:59:06] connected,

[1:59:07] >> where that was prioritized,

[1:59:10] you know. Um, maybe I'm glamorizing

[1:59:13] cultures I don't know anything about,

[1:59:14] but I feel like

[1:59:16] >> I I feel like that

[1:59:19] had to have been the case, especially

[1:59:20] for cultures that lasted a really,

[1:59:21] really long time. You know, like I've

[1:59:25] been spending a lot of time in

[1:59:26] Connecticut where I grew up, and I never

[1:59:27] thought I would go back there because I

[1:59:28] was like, I got to get out of here. Um,

[1:59:31] but I have found I've come back um 50

[1:59:34] years later, no 40 years later. And um

[1:59:38] been spending a lot of time in the

[1:59:39] Connecticut woods and

[1:59:42] getting very curious about who was here,

[1:59:44] you know, because there were people

[1:59:46] there when my ancestors came from

[1:59:49] England to New England. Um, and those

[1:59:52] people are mostly not there anymore. And

[1:59:55] it's just very moving to find out that

[1:59:59] there were people in those woods for

[2:00:01] 12,000 years. Not like 12,000 years ago,

[2:00:04] but for 12,000 uninterrupted years.

[2:00:08] And the fact that they managed that land

[2:00:11] and themselves well enough that that was

[2:00:14] preserved and taken care of so

[2:00:16] beautifully makes me think that they had

[2:00:18] to have been in some deeper

[2:00:19] communication than we are.

[2:00:21] >> Oh, for sure. I mean, anyone who's gone

[2:00:23] camping for a couple days, let alone

[2:00:25] 12,000 years gener generationally, like

[2:00:28] what does that do to what does that open

[2:00:31] >> exactly? Um,

[2:00:35] so

[2:00:37] yes, I think I think it's but we are

[2:00:40] still human and we do have we are divine

[2:00:43] as well. Um, and we're distracted and

[2:00:47] we're afraid and it's a scary moment.

[2:00:51] Um, and we're divine. And the answers

[2:00:55] are not far away.

[2:00:57] I went to do this five-day darkness

[2:00:59] meditation retreat last year.

[2:01:01] >> Oh, me too.

[2:01:02] >> Um, did you?

[2:01:02] >> I did. Yeah, I did like two years ago.

[2:01:04] Yeah, in Oregon. Sky cave. Yeah.

[2:01:06] >> Oh, nice. [laughter]

[2:01:07] >> Great.

[2:01:09] >> Love that for us.

[2:01:09] >> Okay. So, you know, so you know,

[2:01:12] >> um well, maybe you got had a different

[2:01:14] experience, but what I what I found out

[2:01:17] was there's you can take everything else

[2:01:19] away and that voice of love is still

[2:01:21] there.

[2:01:21] >> Yeah.

[2:01:22] >> It's the only thing left.

[2:01:24] >> Mhm.

[2:01:24] >> And that was such good news. I was like,

[2:01:26] h this is great news. Everything else

[2:01:29] can go and this is still here.

[2:01:34] >> What drew you into that? Cuz I feel like

[2:01:36] that it takes a special kind of person

[2:01:38] to want to go into the void.

[2:01:39] >> I know. My friend Margaret was like,

[2:01:41] "You're such an idiot." She's like,

[2:01:43] "Give me a couple thousand. I'll lock

[2:01:45] you in a closet in the house and give

[2:01:46] you food for the day." [laughter] Like,

[2:01:48] what are you like, "You're such a

[2:01:50] sucker. Why are you doing more complex

[2:01:51] than that?"

[2:01:52] >> I'm like, "There's more to it." They,

[2:01:54] you know, and there is. And I love them

[2:01:56] at Sky. Like, they really do take care

[2:01:57] of you in a way. Um, [snorts] you know,

[2:02:00] it's a I I had a friend who did it and

[2:02:04] talked about doing it and it was a full

[2:02:05] body. Yes. Like there's things

[2:02:06] >> Yeah.

[2:02:07] >> There's things in my life that I hear

[2:02:08] about and I instantly know like, "Oh,

[2:02:10] that's one of the things I came to earth

[2:02:11] to do."

[2:02:12] >> And [clears throat] um she said that she

[2:02:13] had done it and I was like, "Oh, that's

[2:02:14] one of the things I came to earth like

[2:02:16] right forgot that that was on my list

[2:02:18] that you're supposed to do that." You

[2:02:19] know, it was just a full automatic

[2:02:22] absolute yes. Um and yeah, did you enjoy

[2:02:26] it? Enjoy is not really the right word.

[2:02:28] Joy is weird.

[2:02:28] >> Are you glad you did it?

[2:02:30] >> For sure. I I was just intrigued. You

[2:02:32] know, I know a lot of people go in there

[2:02:34] trying to like seek a certain answer

[2:02:35] maybe or I don't know

[2:02:37] >> what, but

[2:02:38] >> I was just like I want to see what

[2:02:40] happens. Just

[2:02:42] >> when your sensory world is pulled out

[2:02:44] from underneath you and then it's just

[2:02:46] you and your consciousness floating in

[2:02:47] the void,

[2:02:48] >> what happens? And what happens to your

[2:02:51] sense of time and space? And um

[2:02:56] I it was powerful in a different way

[2:02:58] than like a meditation or vaposa

[2:03:00] retreat. It has been for me for sure. Um

[2:03:03] but I'm I'm super glad I did it and it

[2:03:06] was very it was like a it was similarly

[2:03:09] like one of those things where it was

[2:03:10] kind of like I want to I want to see

[2:03:12] what's there. I want to peek around the

[2:03:13] corner and see what that and I think it

[2:03:16] it has deepened my relationship to

[2:03:19] the unknown, the void, being uncertain,

[2:03:23] and stillness in general.

[2:03:26] >> Mhm.

[2:03:26] >> Yeah. What were you doing in there? Did

[2:03:28] you journal at all?

[2:03:29] >> Oh, I didn't bring anything in.

[2:03:31] >> Um I I I knew if I had access to

[2:03:33] writing, then that's a

[2:03:36] >> such a security blanket for me

[2:03:38] >> and I can always find God on the page in

[2:03:40] two-way prayer. So, I was like, "But

[2:03:42] what if you didn't have that?"

[2:03:44] >> Like, "What if you didn't have a

[2:03:45] notebook? What if you didn't have a pen?

[2:03:46] What if you didn't have light? What if

[2:03:47] you didn't have Could you still find

[2:03:49] it?"

[2:03:51] >> And uh so, yes. [laughter]

[2:03:54] >> Answer is yes.

[2:03:56] >> Well, it found me.

[2:03:57] >> Yes,

[2:03:57] >> it found me. Actually, what happened is

[2:04:01] a lot of things happened, but what

[2:04:02] happened that was interesting is I

[2:04:03] thought I was going to be really good at

[2:04:04] it [laughter]

[2:04:06] >> cuz I was like, I meditate a lot. I like

[2:04:08] myself.

[2:04:09] >> Yeah. I don't have any enemies in my

[2:04:10] mind anymore. I don't think um I love

[2:04:13] being alone. I'm not afraid of the dark.

[2:04:15] I'm not claustrophobic. This is going to

[2:04:16] be great. And um and I was like, "Let's

[2:04:18] go." Like, like, "Shut the door. Let's

[2:04:20] go." And the minute they shut the door,

[2:04:22] >> I freaking freaked out so hard. Like I

[2:04:25] did not like I went mental. I was like,

[2:04:27] "Wow." Like I did not like I was wow.

[2:04:31] Okay. Like my body went crazy. My mind

[2:04:33] went crazy. I panicked. Um, like I think

[2:04:37] I had a pan a full panic attack.

[2:04:39] >> Wow.

[2:04:39] >> Um, yeah, I was like, "Whoa, I did not

[2:04:42] see that coming." And um, and then I

[2:04:44] heard go I'll just say God's voice say,

[2:04:46] "Let the wild horses run."

[2:04:49] >> So just don't fight this. Like just let

[2:04:50] this run out. Like let your brain run

[2:04:52] out. Let your body shake. Like whatever

[2:04:53] has to happen. So it was just like

[2:04:56] thought thought, you know, like just

[2:04:58] this completely disordered mind and this

[2:05:00] completely disordered body. And then um,

[2:05:02] one of the thoughts I had was what if

[2:05:04] God isn't real? And what if this thing

[2:05:07] that I speak to every day that brings me

[2:05:09] such peace and calm and directs my life

[2:05:11] is just a figment of my imagination and

[2:05:13] does not exist, never did. There's

[2:05:15] nothing but void. There's never been

[2:05:17] anything here. We are alone in the

[2:05:19] universe. And I had like the biggest

[2:05:21] existential freak. I was like, you know,

[2:05:23] like just like I'm not going to be, you

[2:05:25] know, like ah, you know, and um and then

[2:05:28] God said, that's the one thought I'm not

[2:05:31] going to let you entertain

[2:05:33] while you're in here. You can go in any

[2:05:35] you can go anywhere you want while

[2:05:36] you're here, but not that because first

[2:05:38] of all, it isn't true and you're going

[2:05:41] to scare yourself to death with that.

[2:05:42] And it's not true. I'm I'm right here.

[2:05:45] So, and secondly, you're not going to do

[2:05:48] well in here without a god [laughter]

[2:05:50] for 5 days. And you're not going to do

[2:05:52] well out there without a god. So,

[2:05:57] >> that's it. That that's a non-starter for

[2:05:59] a conversation. And I was just like, "Oh

[2:06:01] my god, thank God." M

[2:06:02] >> and then that's when it began. And I was

[2:06:04] like, okay, you're here.

[2:06:07] And you're always here, so we're good.

[2:06:10] And I guess that's what my soul came

[2:06:11] here to to learn.

[2:06:14] >> So you couldn't be alone if you tried.

[2:06:18] Go in the deepest, darkest hole.

[2:06:22] >> You're not alone.

[2:06:22] >> You're not alone.

[2:06:23] >> In the complete void, even

[2:06:26] >> there is no void.

[2:06:28] [laughter]

[2:06:29] I'd be remiss if I didn't ask. What do

[2:06:31] you think it means to know thyself?

[2:06:39] >> Oh, what comes to mind? Two things. One

[2:06:42] is serenity.

[2:06:44] I think um

[2:06:47] that people who know themselves

[2:06:50] and have accepted themselves

[2:06:53] and have no notes,

[2:06:56] you know, like no notes, I just love

[2:06:59] you. I've got you. I'm with you. Um

[2:07:02] there's a serenity that is maybe the

[2:07:04] side effect of knowing thyself. Um the

[2:07:08] reward, if I want to put it in those

[2:07:10] terms, and I'm not sure I do. um the

[2:07:13] impact.

[2:07:15] But

[2:07:16] for me, what it means personally,

[2:07:20] so I'm menopausal, which means my sleep

[2:07:23] has been weird. I mean, that doesn't

[2:07:25] mean that for everybody, but for me, it

[2:07:26] means that my sleep has been weird. And

[2:07:29] um so like three nights I had these

[2:07:32] nights where I just it's like we're not

[2:07:33] sleeping. It's like it's like it's a

[2:07:36] talent I used to have. I'm like, I

[2:07:38] thought I used to know how to do this.

[2:07:39] like you just lay down, you shut your

[2:07:40] eyes and you go to sleep and it's like

[2:07:42] no, not anymore. Like this is

[2:07:44] interesting and and there are times when

[2:07:46] I get frustrated with that and then I

[2:07:48] get fearful with that. I'm like

[2:07:50] tomorrow's going to suck if we don't

[2:07:52] sleep. Um,

[2:07:54] so just like three nights ago, I was

[2:07:56] having a non-sleeping night and I was

[2:07:58] doing all the things I know to do that

[2:08:00] help and none of them were helping. And

[2:08:02] I took a bath and I ate a banana,

[2:08:05] [laughter]

[2:08:05] you know, and I and I chanted and I

[2:08:07] like, you know, sprayed some lavender in

[2:08:10] my face. I don't know. And my body's

[2:08:11] just like, "Bitch, we're not sleeping."

[2:08:13] [laughter]

[2:08:14] And and I had this anger at myself, this

[2:08:17] like little wave of anger at myself,

[2:08:19] like you should you should sleep. And

[2:08:23] then the next thought I had was um I

[2:08:27] just put my hand in my heart and I said,

[2:08:29] "I will never turn my back on you.

[2:08:33] I will never turn my back on you. I've

[2:08:35] done I've done it in the past and I

[2:08:37] won't do it again."

[2:08:39] For me, that's what it means. know

[2:08:40] thyself is like I will never throw you

[2:08:43] away. I will never abandon you. I will

[2:08:46] never turn my back on you and just a

[2:08:48] commitment that I have to myself. So if

[2:08:51] this is going to be a sleepless night,

[2:08:53] then we're in it together, you know. So

[2:08:55] we're going to get up and read and

[2:08:57] that's okay. And if tomorrow's a hard

[2:08:59] day, then I'll love you then, too. And

[2:09:02] and that's something that I did come to

[2:09:05] Earth school to learn because I was not

[2:09:07] pre-programmed

[2:09:09] to intuitively have a sense of affection

[2:09:12] toward myself. I was pre-programmed to

[2:09:14] have a tremendous sense of shame,

[2:09:17] to feel like I could never be good

[2:09:20] enough, could never get it right, could

[2:09:22] never earn enough, could never have

[2:09:25] enough love, could never

[2:09:28] like just constant self-improvement

[2:09:30] project that never ends. And so to have

[2:09:33] come now at the age of 57 to a place

[2:09:35] where I'm like, little sister, I'm never

[2:09:38] going to throw you away. I'm never going

[2:09:40] to turn my back on you. and this is just

[2:09:42] fine. Like if this is what we do, if

[2:09:45] this is just what it is, then then this

[2:09:48] is great and I'm happy to be here with

[2:09:50] you. And that

[2:09:53] has taken a long time to get to 57 years

[2:09:56] and who knows how many lifetimes. But

[2:09:58] just for today, we're good here.

[2:10:02] And that's all there is. [laughter]

[2:10:05] >> You've really become your own best

[2:10:06] friend.

[2:10:07] >> Yeah. my own secure attachment. For

[2:10:09] somebody who has a very severe

[2:10:10] attachment disorder,

[2:10:12] >> um I am my own secure attachment.

[2:10:17] >> No small feet.

[2:10:18] >> No small feet. If I can do it,

[2:10:22] [laughter]

[2:10:24] if I can have a secure attachment to me,

[2:10:27] anybody can do that. I know that to be

[2:10:31] true because I have a very severe

[2:10:33] attachment disorder. So if I if I can

[2:10:35] have a just a day where I'm okay in my

[2:10:39] own company, that's amazing.

[2:10:41] >> And that's available to anybody.

[2:10:45] >> Liz, I'm so honored you're gracing us

[2:10:46] with your presence after a good period

[2:10:49] of just

[2:10:50] >> hanging out.

[2:10:50] >> Hanging out. [laughter]

[2:10:53] I uh

[2:10:55] >> yeah, it's

[2:10:57] it's [snorts] such a great joy to be

[2:11:00] able to do this show and then you get

[2:11:02] exposed to so many people's work and

[2:11:04] then your job is to dive into their

[2:11:06] story and their genius and all the

[2:11:07] things and then you get to meet them and

[2:11:09] feel like you get a new new friend at

[2:11:11] the end of it and um

[2:11:14] >> yeah I I throughout this whole

[2:11:15] conversation have felt your commitment

[2:11:17] to your own au authenticity and like

[2:11:19] saying what is true what feels true and

[2:11:21] not what's just perfor performance, but

[2:11:22] like what is actual presence in this

[2:11:24] moment. And

[2:11:25] >> so, [snorts] thank you for being here.

[2:11:27] >> Oh my god, it's a joy.

[2:11:29] >> Yeah.

[2:11:30] >> Thank you for what you do and for who

[2:11:32] you give the mic to and um and for being

[2:11:35] so curious and for being so lovely.

[2:11:38] >> Oh, thank you.

[2:11:39] >> Appreciate you.

[2:11:40] >> Appreciate you, too.

[2:11:41] >> Well, uh congrats on almost it's almost

[2:11:45] a year exactly of All the Way to the

[2:11:47] River, which is now available on

[2:11:48] paperback. Do a little promo.

[2:11:50] >> Thank you. Yeah, of course.

[2:11:52] >> And that's it. Do you have any other

[2:11:54] last words?

[2:11:55] >> No, I think we did it. We covered

[2:11:56] everything.

[2:11:58] >> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And

[2:12:00] thank you for easing me back into this

[2:12:01] and making it easy. Thanks you guys,

[2:12:04] too, for

[2:12:05] >> everything you do.

[2:12:06] >> You're welcome back anytime, whatever

[2:12:08] you want. And for everybody that's

[2:12:10] listened to this episode of the No

[2:12:11] Thyself podcast, let us know how this

[2:12:13] episode was uniquely impactful. If you

[2:12:16] did that two-way prayer with us, what

[2:12:18] came through to you? I'm curious to see

[2:12:20] what came up.

[2:12:22] >> Write in the comments.

[2:12:23] >> Hey everyone, in case you didn't know,

[2:12:25] we have an online community. [music]

[2:12:27] It's amazing. It's called the Know

[2:12:29] Thyself Collective, and there are three

[2:12:30] main things on the inside. First, each

[2:12:33] month I [music] host a 2hour live call

[2:12:35] with a featured guest. Think of it like

[2:12:37] this podcast except you're in the room

[2:12:39] with us. We go deeper. We take live

[2:12:42] questions. [music] And when you join,

[2:12:43] you get the full archive of every past

[2:12:45] call. It's basically like a second

[2:12:48] podcast. Second, you get a full

[2:12:50] companion guide for every podcast

[2:12:52] episode of this show with key takeaways,

[2:12:55] transcripts, journal prompts, and more.

[2:12:58] Third, but not least, we [music] host

[2:13:00] community calls every 2 weeks to meet

[2:13:02] each other and put all of this into

[2:13:04] practice together. It's 29 a month, and

[2:13:07] if money [music] is ever the reason you

[2:13:08] can't join, just email us and we'll take

[2:13:10] care of you. If you feel called to

[2:13:12] practice this stuff alongside people

[2:13:14] asking the same questions, go to know

[2:13:16] thyselfcollective.com or use the link in

[2:13:18] description. I hope to see you there.

[2:13:24] [music]

Know Thyself
ArtistKnow Thyself

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Elizabeth-gilbertTwo-way-prayerInner-voiceAddiction-recoveryCreativity

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Questions fréquemment posées

Gilbert describes two-way prayer as a daily morning practice in which she writes questions to a higher power she calls God, such as what to do, who to be, and where to go that day, and then records the answer she receives. She says she follows that written direction in her choices. She has practiced it for years.
Gilbert says that about two years before the conversation her inner voice told her she had to plan to stop, because she had been going hard without pause and something would eventually stop her in a way she would not like. She spent roughly a year and a half planning the break, which ran from early March to early September of 2026. During it she intentionally did not write, produce, or plan.
Gilbert says that when she felt trapped, the way out was always the truth she least wanted to tell, specifically naming where she was lying, hiding, or manipulating. She describes this as the meaning of 'know thyself' in her own life. She applied it while caring for her partner Rayya through terminal cancer and addiction.
Gilbert describes recovery as learning that no partner, payoff, or praise could fill her sense of scarcity around love. She credits sitting with the part of herself that wailed for someone else at three in the morning, and promising to stay with it anyway, with slowly building a secure attachment to herself.
No, Gilbert says she no longer believes everyone must create, but she believes everyone is invited to. She stresses that success can never be promised, yet telling the story within you will change who you are by the end. She has said she can absolutely promise that such a person becomes different.
The central lesson is that feeling trapped usually has an exit in honesty: naming your own lying, hiding, and manipulation loosens its hold. Gilbert ties this to recovery, to staying present with your own distress, and to creative work as a way of becoming a different person. She frames it as a practice rather than a one-time insight.
The episode's own description suggests that as AI grows more capable, the lasting reason to make things may be the ancestral one: making things is pleasing. This is the description's framing rather than a direct quote from Gilbert, and the talk supports it by locating creative reward in the act of telling a story and the person it creates.

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