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Inspire

Adversity, Dementia, and the Purpose Hidden in a Diagnosis

Oprah Winfrey
Oprah Winfrey
Oct 15, 2026
8 min read
Watch · 8

The most important phone call of Barry Michels’s life was one he was never meant to hear. He was sitting in a hospital cafeteria while his wife, Judy, underwent a procedure. She called to say she was finished and he could come collect her, and then, by accident, the line stayed open. He heard her talking to her nurse. “He doesn’t know it,” she said, “but he also has Alzheimer’s.” In the conversation Michels later described to Oprah on her podcast, the moment felt physical: “It’s like my blood just ran cold.” That scene opens this conversation, and it sets up everything that follows. In a long, unhurried exchange, Oprah talks with the psychotherapist and co-author of The Tools about his diagnosis with Lewy body dementia, his memoir Ahead of All Parting, and the stubborn question at the center of both: can the worst thing that happens to a person also become the material of a fuller life?

Read · 6 sections

Why does a dementia diagnosis frighten people more than most illnesses?

Oprah opens by citing a statistic she had read in preparation: dementia ranks with cancer among the medical conditions people fear most. Her reasoning is specific. Cancer, even at its most frightening, may come with a treatment or a clinical trial, a glimmer that something might work. Dementia, as she and Michels discuss it, attacks the one thing a person most identifies with. “This is the thing I think most people fear,” Oprah says, “is the loss of your very self.”

Michels draws the same line from the clinical side. With cancer, he points out, consciousness remains intact; you are still yourself while you fight the disease. With Lewy body dementia, he says, “you begin to lose what defines you as you.” He then adds a refinement that gives the conversation its emotional gravity: what defines a person may be less their faculties than what they believed about themselves. “Or what you thought of yourself defines you,” he says. The fear, in other words, is not only about memory. It is about identity coming unmoored.

Oprah’s intro also names the progression the disease is known for: the loss of independence, the loss of memory, and, in Lewy body dementia specifically, the possibility of hallucinations and changes in behavior. She is candid that she had never heard of the disease before reading Michels’s book. Michels is equally direct about its mechanics. It is, he says, “a gradual wasting away of the personality,” and the person “really loses themselves.” He lost his father to it, and he has come to understand his own condition as what he calls mixed dementia, a combination of Alzheimer’s and Lewy body dementia. “That’s what I have,” he says.

What does living with Lewy body dementia look like day to day?

The most useful thing about this conversation is how plainly Michels describes the variability of his days. Oprah asks how he is, and he offers a grade: “a sort of a medium day.” A medium day means his brain is not as sharp as he is used to it being. He may fumble for answers. He may not remember parts of his own book that he ought to. What it does not mean is complete fog or disorientation. A bad day, by his account, is one where he feels he should not be doing psychotherapy at all, because he will not be helpful to the person in front of him.

That detail matters because Michels is still seeing patients. He describes mornings when his head feels filled with fog, and a routine that works against it: a run or some exercise, a little poetry, then back to the office. Once the first session begins, something shifts. “The moment I see them on the Zoom screen or they’re in person, I’m there,” he says. He attributes this to a principle he has built his practice around. “I recognize that when I’m forced to, I show up. And I show up really well.”

Then he makes the claim that turns the interview into a case for how people should meet illness. When Oprah asks whether he would have declined faster without the obligation to work, he answers without hedging: “I think if people had coddled me or if I had coddled myself, I would have deteriorated a lot more quickly.” It is a hard sentence to hear from someone who is ill, and Michels is not offering it as a rule for everyone. He is describing his own experience, and his own sense that structure, responsibility, and being needed kept him in the world.

What is The Tools, and how does it relate to this diagnosis?

Michels is a Los Angeles-based psychotherapist. He and his longtime collaborator Phil Stutz co-wrote the New York Times bestseller The Tools. Their work relies on mental exercises with names like active love, grateful flow, and loss processing. The aim, as Oprah summarizes it, is to help people confront psychological obstacles and transform them into opportunities for growth. That framework is the thread linking the therapist’s practice to the patient in the diagnosis chair. The question he has to answer for himself is the same one he helps his clients answer: what do you do when the obstacle cannot be removed?

Michels says the diagnosis changed him as a therapist, and the conversation returns to that change more than once. The shift is less about technique than about what he knows now from the inside. Many patients come to him carrying something they cannot fix, and he now understands that condition more intimately than he did. He is also clear that the tools are not a shield. They are a way of meeting what is happening, which is why he keeps returning to the act of showing up.

Can a terrible diagnosis become a blessing?

This is the question the whole video is built around, and Oprah does not pretend it is easy. Early on she admits she could not imagine anyone seeing a Lewy body diagnosis as a blessing, and she says she wanted to find someone who could. The framing she offers is that Michels now sees his illness as “the path he was meant to walk,” one that has opened him in ways he never expected, through vulnerability, love, prayer, and the written word.

The opening montage makes the stakes plain with a single line that stands on its own: everything that happens to you, especially the worst things, is there for a reason, and you can use those things to transform yourself. That is a strong claim, and the conversation earns it only partly. What the interview does show convincingly is the difference between a reason and a lesson. Michels does not say his disease is good. He says that living through it has taught him things he would not otherwise have learned, and that he is willing to put that learning to work for other people.

The conversation also widens to other voices. Drew Barrymore, a longtime client of Michels, joins to talk about what his work has meant to her and about watching him navigate his illness. The video also introduces a guest named Alex, who was diagnosed with kidney failure, extending the discussion beyond neurology into other serious diagnoses. Religion, guilt, writing, and mortality take up the later stretches of the hour, and each one returns to the same tension: how a person holds grief and meaning at once.

What role does writing play for someone losing his memory?

The memoir is itself the answer to that question. Michels writes poetry on the days when his brain can manage it, and the book is an act of composition at the moment composition is hardest. Oprah’s framing of the book as one to keep by the bedside suggests why it resonates: it is not a clinical account but a record of a mind deciding how to spend what remains of its clarity. Writing becomes a way of continuing to be the person his diagnosis says he is losing.

Where to go from here

If this conversation stays with you, start with the book it grew out of. Ahead of All Parting by Barry Michels is the fullest account of the diagnosis, the grief, and the acceptance that Oprah’s interview only touches. Then return to The Tools, written with Phil Stutz, to see the exercises that shaped Michels’s approach before his illness changed what he understood about them. Watch the full episode for the sections on guilt, faith, and mortality, which are where the emotional argument is most personal. And if you are living with a diagnosis of your own or caring for someone who is, consider the question Michels keeps answering in different ways: not whether you will be tested, but what you choose to show up for when the test arrives.

Attribution note: quotations are drawn from Oprah Winfrey’s podcast conversation with Barry Michels, published on her channel in October 2026. Timestamps refer to that episode.

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Transcript

[0:00] This book is so truthful and resonates

[0:03] [music] so powerfully. This this is

[0:04] going to be one of those books you keep

[0:05] by your bedside forever.

[0:07] >> He has helped [music] me understand our

[0:10] greatest devastations can become our

[0:12] greatest strengths.

[0:14] >> Right now I'm kind of in the it's not

[0:16] fair phase. Why me?

[0:18] >> Everything [music] that happens to you,

[0:20] especially the worst things that happen

[0:22] to you, are there for a reason. And then

[0:25] you can [music] use those things to help

[0:28] you transform yourself.

[0:33] >> Hi there and a warm welcome to you all.

[0:34] Thanks for being here with me on the

[0:36] Oprah podcast.

[0:37] Uh while I was getting ready for this

[0:41] episode,

[0:42] I read this statistic that dementia is

[0:45] right up there with cancer as the most

[0:49] feared medical condition. And I have to

[0:51] say

[0:52] that doesn't surprise me and I'm sure it

[0:54] doesn't surprise many of you who are

[0:55] listening or watching because

[0:57] there's no cure.

[0:59] And

[1:01] many of us see the devastation that

[1:05] patients endure, the the loss of

[1:08] independence, the

[1:10] course the loss of memories and the loss

[1:12] of

[1:13] This is the thing I think most people

[1:14] fear is the loss of your very self.

[1:17] >> [snorts]

[1:18] >> And when my next guest was diagnosed

[1:22] with

[1:23] Lewy body dementia,

[1:26] he was told that it will ravage his

[1:28] brain,

[1:30] he will lose his mobility, he may

[1:32] display bizarre behavior, he may even

[1:35] endure terrifying hallucinations.

[1:39] He suffered through many dark nights of

[1:41] the soul cuz can you imagine being told

[1:44] that?

[1:45] And he suffered before he began to see

[1:48] his fate as a blessing. And so when I

[1:50] first heard that, I was like,

[1:52] I just just the worst diagnosis you

[1:55] could possibly receive. I don't know how

[1:57] anybody could see that as a blessing.

[2:00] And of course, I wanted to talk to

[2:02] anybody who could see that a blessing as

[2:05] a blessing, and that anybody is here

[2:07] today. I know that may be hard for you

[2:10] all to believe, so I wanted to learn too

[2:12] how he got to this place. He's a

[2:14] renowned psychotherapist and

[2:15] best-selling author Barry Michaels is

[2:17] here to share with all of us

[2:21] how he became

[2:23] fully alive

[2:25] in the face of dire adversity.

[2:29] He says that we all can. You can, I can,

[2:33] and it doesn't take us a crisis

[2:35] to get there. And his new book

[2:37] chronicling his path from diagnosis to

[2:41] acceptance is just extraordinary. When I

[2:44] tell you

[2:46] this is a book you're going to want for

[2:48] yourself, and you absolutely want to

[2:50] gift it to anybody

[2:52] who

[2:54] loves life, is going through a trial,

[2:57] has been through a trial, or just

[2:59] appreciates being human.

[3:01] It's It's extraordinary. It's called

[3:03] Ahead of All Parting. Barry, thank you

[3:06] for being here.

[3:07] >> Thank you so much for having me.

[3:09] >> That's just the worst diagnosis I think

[3:11] anybody could ever receive. I think a

[3:13] lot of people fear cancer,

[3:15] but even in fearing cancer, you know,

[3:18] there may be a cure, or there may there

[3:20] may be even after you've tried all the

[3:23] things. I have a family member going

[3:24] through it now. In the year there's a

[3:26] clinical trial, you know? So there's

[3:28] some glimmer of hope, but a diagnosis

[3:31] like that

[3:32] >> And also with cancer, your consciousness

[3:34] remains intact. You are still yourself.

[3:38] >> Yes.

[3:39] >> about Lewy body dementia and any other

[3:41] form of dementia is you begin to lose

[3:44] what defines you as you.

[3:47] >> Yeah, or what you thought of yourself

[3:49] defines you. So let's begin with how how

[3:52] are you today? When I when I was reading

[3:54] this, I was like, "Well, will I even be

[3:56] able to talk to you because

[3:59] you know, had it progressed to a point

[4:01] where you wouldn't even be able to have

[4:02] a conversation?" So, how are you?

[4:05] >> I'm all right. I you know, I have good

[4:07] days and bad days. This is about a sort

[4:09] of a medium day.

[4:11] >> And what does that mean?

[4:12] >> What it means is that my brain isn't as

[4:14] sharp as I'm used to it being. Um I may

[4:17] fumble a little bit with answers. I

[4:19] might not remember parts of the book

[4:21] that I should remember.

[4:22] >> Mhm.

[4:23] >> But

[4:24] I'm not completely fogged out or

[4:27] completely, you know, disoriented or or

[4:30] anything like that.

[4:31] >> bad day would have you completely fogged

[4:33] out?

[4:33] >> I you know, that's a bit of an

[4:35] exaggeration. I wouldn't say that I ever

[4:37] get to that point, but I I do have days

[4:40] where I feel like

[4:42] I really shouldn't do psychotherapy

[4:44] today cuz I'm not really going to be

[4:46] helpful to the person.

[4:49] >> Barry Michels is a Los Angeles-based

[4:51] psychotherapist.

[4:53] He and his long-time collaborator Phil

[4:54] Stutz [music]

[4:56] co-wrote the New York Times best-seller

[4:58] The Tools. Their work uses mental

[5:00] exercises [music] with names like active

[5:03] love, grateful flow, and loss

[5:05] processing. These [music] tools help

[5:07] people confront psychological obstacles

[5:10] and transform them into growth

[5:11] opportunities. [music]

[5:15] >> So, you're still working with patients?

[5:18] >> Yeah.

[5:18] >> Yeah.

[5:19] >> Yeah.

[5:19] >> Yeah, and it's still going well. I mean,

[5:22] I'm still doing a good job. I can tell

[5:24] that I'm being effective.

[5:26] Um you know, it's just so

[5:30] it's so strange because there are times

[5:33] when I wake up in the morning and feel

[5:37] like my brain is literally filled with

[5:39] fog.

[5:41] And then I'll I'll take a run or I'll

[5:43] get some exercise and I'll write some

[5:45] poetry and I'll get back to my office

[5:48] and I'll see my first person and the

[5:50] moment I see them on the Zoom screen or

[5:52] they're in person,

[5:53] I'm there.

[5:55] I'm right back.

[5:56] So, it's it's very variable and

[6:00] I think one of the reasons I'm still

[6:01] practicing is that I recognize that when

[6:04] I'm forced to,

[6:06] I show up. And I show up really well.

[6:10] Uh which is good for me and it's good

[6:11] for them.

[6:12] >> So, do you think then that had you not

[6:15] had

[6:17] the opportunity or the challenge

[6:20] of being forced to show up, that this

[6:22] could have progressed even more because

[6:24] you wouldn't have had a reason to show

[6:26] up?

[6:26] >> Exactly. I think if people had coddled

[6:29] me or if I had coddled myself,

[6:32] I would have deteriorated a lot more

[6:35] quickly.

[6:35] >> Well, I have to tell you in my

[6:37] ignorance, I I had not heard of Lewy

[6:39] body dementia and only after reading

[6:41] ahead of all parting, did I recognize as

[6:45] I know many of you will, that apparently

[6:47] this is what Robin Williams also had

[6:49] suffered from. Yeah.

[6:50] >> Yes, he didn't know. He was undiagnosed,

[6:53] which is we we don't know for sure, but

[6:56] probably why he committed suicide

[6:58] because the symptoms are so distressing.

[7:01] I mean, you just don't know what's

[7:02] happening to you. I can only imagine how

[7:04] horrified he must have felt.

[7:06] >> Okay, so uh you were diagnosed with the

[7:09] brain disease called Lewy body dementia.

[7:12] For those of us who don't know, and I

[7:15] was one of the many who didn't as I say,

[7:17] can you explain to us what it is?

[7:19] >> Not [snorts] really. I mean, it's it's a

[7:23] brain disease. Uh

[7:25] my father had it and it's what he died

[7:28] of.

[7:28] >> But did you all know that at the time?

[7:30] Was it called Was it diagnosed as that?

[7:32] >> diagnosed as Lewy body dementia.

[7:34] >> Mhm.

[7:34] >> And it's what it involves is a gradual

[7:39] wasting away of the personality.

[7:43] So, the person really loses themselves.

[7:46] They they lose their sense of who

[7:47] >> So, is it like Alzheimer's? It's a form

[7:50] of dementia cuz it's called Lewy body

[7:51] dementia.

[7:52] >> The symptoms are a lot like Alzheimer's.

[7:55] Um it's it's worse There there's a

[7:58] There's something called mixed dementia,

[7:59] which is a combination of Alzheimer's

[8:01] and Lewy body dementia.

[8:03] >> Which you have that.

[8:04] >> Which that's what I have.

[8:05] >> you were on You write in the book that

[8:07] you you were on the phone and overheard

[8:09] something about your condition. What

[8:11] happened?

[8:11] >> I was on the phone with my wife. Um she

[8:15] was actually having a procedure done at

[8:16] the hospital and I was I was at the

[8:19] hospital cafeteria.

[8:21] And we were on the phone cuz she called

[8:22] me to say, "I'm I'm done. You can come

[8:24] pick me up."

[8:26] And then she accidentally didn't hang up

[8:28] when we were done talking and I

[8:30] overheard her talking to her nurse

[8:33] saying,

[8:35] "You know, he doesn't know it, but he

[8:36] also has Alzheimer's." And

[8:39] >> Mhm.

[8:40] >> at that moment uh

[8:42] I It's like my blood just ran cold. I

[8:46] just I just couldn't believe what I was

[8:48] hearing.

[8:49] >> Mhm.

[8:50] >> I held it together until, you know, we

[8:52] got out of the hospital and she was

[8:53] driving us back and I said, "Judy, I

[8:56] I heard what you said. You know, do Do I

[8:59] have Alzheimer's?"

[9:00] And she started to cry and she said,

[9:02] "Yes. Um and I'm so sorry I withheld it

[9:05] from you.

[9:06] Our doctor had thought that it would be

[9:09] wise to withhold it from me just for my

[9:11] emotional health, but I I needed to

[9:14] know."

[9:14] >> This is what you write on page 49 of

[9:18] Ahead of All Parting. You say, "Grief

[9:21] came like a tsunami.

[9:24] My body shook with sobs that made my

[9:27] ribs feel like they were splintering

[9:29] under the weight of loss. My brain, the

[9:33] instrument that had given me every gift,

[9:36] was no longer on my team, it was

[9:38] slipping away.

[9:40] >> [sighs]

[9:41] >> How do you begin to process a loss like

[9:45] that?

[9:47] >> It's shattering.

[9:49] It's truly, truly shattering.

[9:52] Because it's not the same as just being

[9:55] sick. You know, when you're sick, you

[9:58] can feel it in your body, but your mind

[10:01] is still intact. Your identity is still

[10:04] preserved.

[10:06] This promises to destroy your identity,

[10:11] your sense of yourself.

[10:13] >> [clears throat]

[10:13] >> Which is

[10:16] I

[10:17] want to call it my most precious

[10:18] possession.

[10:20] >> Is yourself.

[10:20] >> My sense of myself. Yeah.

[10:23] So, contemplating losing that

[10:27] was just unimaginably painful.

[10:30] >> On page 62, you talk about

[10:33] cosmic rage.

[10:36] Can you tell us what that is?

[10:38] >> That is a tool that was devised by my

[10:40] mentor, Phil Stutz, and it's a brilliant

[10:43] tool.

[10:44] Uh it's it's to be used when you feel

[10:46] like you're

[10:48] under attack. Um usually harsh

[10:51] self-criticism or self-abuse or the

[10:54] voices in your head telling you you're

[10:56] worthless, that, you know, that kind of

[10:57] thing.

[10:58] And what you do is imagine that those

[11:00] messages are coming from demons. If you

[11:02] don't want to use the word demons, you

[11:04] use whatever you want, but they're

[11:05] enemies

[11:06] from outside of you.

[11:08] And you imagine that they are attacking

[11:11] your sense of yourself, your sense of

[11:13] well-being, your sense of self-esteem,

[11:15] etc., etc.

[11:17] And what you do is you gather up all of

[11:19] the rage that you can muster inside of

[11:21] you. It's the kind of rage that says

[11:24] Can I swear?

[11:25] >> Yeah, swear.

[11:26] >> It says you, I'm I'm not going to listen

[11:29] to this. You get the away from me.

[11:32] And you project that rage at the demons

[11:35] and you push them away. You can't get

[11:38] rid of them. They just are part of human

[11:40] existence, but you push them away and

[11:42] you can feel this space opening up in

[11:45] front of you

[11:46] where you can breathe.

[11:48] >> Cuz you're not going to let yourself be

[11:49] consumed by that thing.

[11:51] >> Exactly. Like, no way. I'm not going to

[11:53] let you do this to me.

[11:54] >> like in the Bible, Jesus says, "Get thee

[11:56] behind me, Satan."

[11:57] >> Exactly. Get thee behind me, Satan.

[11:59] >> Except in this instance, it's in front

[12:00] of you.

[12:01] >> Yes, yes, yeah.

[12:02] >> But yeah, exactly. And and I feel that

[12:05] really powerfully when I use that tool.

[12:08] I feel the freedom of expelling those

[12:11] demons.

[12:12] >> So, before this all happened, you and

[12:15] you were working with all of your

[12:16] patients and developing the tools for

[12:18] people to to live a better life for

[12:20] themselves. So, how did the What started

[12:23] to happen at first that you noticed

[12:25] something was off?

[12:27] >> Well, I think my wife knew it more than

[12:30] more quickly than I did. She just

[12:32] noticed that my memory was bad, much

[12:34] worse than it'd ever been before.

[12:37] I don't know that I really noticed it

[12:40] that much. I mean,

[12:41] >> Like you couldn't remember names,

[12:43] couldn't remember

[12:43] >> Exactly. But I'm the Would you get

[12:45] confused when you were out?

[12:48] Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, [clears throat]

[12:50] like yeah, we would order at a

[12:52] restaurant and the the waiter would

[12:54] leave and then 5 minutes later I'd say,

[12:56] "So, when are we going to order?" You

[12:57] know, just like ridiculous, you know,

[13:00] memory problems.

[13:01] Um I'm the kind of person who with my

[13:04] own medical problems, I just tend to

[13:06] say, "Ah, whatever. I'll be fine." You

[13:09] know, kind of thing. So, I probably

[13:11] would not have paid attention to it. And

[13:14] I'm grateful to my wife for paying

[13:16] attention to it, bringing it to our

[13:18] doctor's attention, and finally getting

[13:20] me diagnosed.

[13:21] >> Yeah. And when you heard the diagnosis,

[13:26] >> I don't know that I've ever felt that

[13:28] way before in my life. I mean, it was

[13:30] just shattering. Remember, I knew

[13:32] exactly what this was.

[13:34] >> Because watched my Well, would you have

[13:36] started to suspect too with your memory

[13:39] when your wife brings it to your

[13:40] attention, am I going to repeat who my

[13:43] father became?

[13:44] >> I'm so in denial of any medical

[13:48] problems.

[13:48] >> That you didn't didn't even occur to

[13:50] you.

[13:50] >> No.

[13:50] >> Wow.

[13:51] >> No. No, I just bull forward. I just sort

[13:55] of push forward through things like

[13:57] that.

[13:58] And I'm in it in a way I'm glad I did.

[14:00] It gave me a little bit more time. Um,

[14:03] but no, this when when I was finally

[14:05] given a diagnosis, that shattered the

[14:07] denial.

[14:09] >> You know what? I think when anybody gets

[14:12] a diagnosis or a crisis shows up in

[14:16] in our lives, the first thing we ask is

[14:18] why, why, why? Why is this happening to

[14:21] me now?

[14:23] And you write that this disease was

[14:27] invited into your life for a reason. And

[14:30] I I just think

[14:31] on page 61 where you say, I was

[14:34] beginning to sense

[14:36] that the suffering had direction, that

[14:38] there was something to be forged in it,

[14:41] more courage.

[14:42] You write, more depth, more love. The

[14:46] prize wasn't relief, it was

[14:48] transformation.

[14:50] This was adversity with purpose, and it

[14:53] was the road I was meant to walk.

[14:56] Wow. I mean, and and this this this is

[15:01] only been in process for 3 years.

[15:03] >> Right.

[15:03] >> So, you came to this pretty quickly.

[15:05] >> Yeah, my life philosophy is everything

[15:10] that happens to you, even and in fact

[15:13] especially the worst things that happen

[15:14] to you, are there for a reason. It

[15:17] doesn't mean that they aren't incredibly

[15:19] painful. I don't mean to minimize that.

[15:22] >> Mhm.

[15:23] >> But they happen for a reason

[15:25] >> Mhm. and if you [clears throat] can look

[15:26] at life that way then you can use those

[15:28] things

[15:29] to help you transform yourself and

[15:32] >> You know, I've I've often said things

[15:34] are happening for you, not just to you.

[15:38] But I've been able to determine that

[15:41] after I've gotten through the thing.

[15:42] >> Right.

[15:43] >> You know, it's really it's easier after

[15:45] you've gotten through the thing to be

[15:46] able to say, "Oh, I now see what that

[15:48] was for."

[15:49] >> Right.

[15:50] >> It's really hard when you're in the

[15:51] middle of the diagnosis that is telling

[15:53] you you're going to lose your ability to

[15:56] be mobile, to speak, and most

[15:59] importantly, lose

[16:01] who you were.

[16:03] How you know yourself to be on on on the

[16:06] planet. Why do you believe that this was

[16:10] the road that you were meant to walk?

[16:13] >> I believe it philosophically because I

[16:15] just that's my belief about life.

[16:17] Adversity has a purpose.

[16:20] >> Yeah.

[16:20] >> Doesn't mean it isn't painful and I'm

[16:22] empathic with people who are facing

[16:24] adversity.

[16:25] >> Yeah.

[16:26] >> But it has a purpose. It is supposed to

[16:28] transform

[16:29] >> mean the reason is is that you're you're

[16:32] responsible for the reason or that you

[16:34] brought the reason on yourself.

[16:35] >> No, or that it's a punishment or

[16:36] >> it's a punishment. I I I love that line

[16:39] from Eckhart Tolle in A New Earth where

[16:41] he says, "Life will give you exactly the

[16:44] experience you need for the evolution of

[16:46] your consciousness."

[16:47] >> Exactly.

[16:48] >> And how do you know that's the

[16:49] experience you need? Cuz that's the

[16:50] experience you are having.

[16:51] >> Exactly.

[16:52] >> Yeah. Exactly. And that's a

[16:54] Look, that's a wonderful way to live

[16:56] because then you can embrace every event

[16:59] regardless of how adverse it is or how

[17:01] painful it is. It It still has a

[17:04] positive

[17:05] >> It's showing up for you

[17:07] >> Yes.

[17:07] >> and your journey here on this planet at

[17:10] this time

[17:11] >> Yes.

[17:11] >> because that's the path you were meant

[17:13] to walk.

[17:14] >> Exactly.

[17:15] >> Not what you wanted to do.

[17:16] >> It was the path that you were meant to

[17:18] walk, and it evokes strengths that you

[17:22] were meant to develop.

[17:24] >> Mhm.

[17:25] >> So,

[17:26] >> when you started to look at it that way,

[17:29] what shifted for you in this process?

[17:31] Because

[17:31] >> probably

[17:32] >> Cuz you you remember this long time ago?

[17:34] I think it was somebody named Rollins

[17:35] wrote a book. It's called First You Cry.

[17:38] When she was diagnosed with cancer,

[17:39] First You Cry. So, first you cried.

[17:41] >> Mhm.

[17:42] >> Yeah, you did cry.

[17:43] >> Oh my god, yeah.

[17:45] >> Yeah.

[17:45] >> Yeah.

[17:46] >> Did you allow others to see you cry? Did

[17:48] you share you crying with others?

[17:50] >> what I was going to talk about. I had

[17:54] I I grew up in a very very troubled

[17:57] family. Um

[17:59] and it was

[18:01] impossible to open up in my family

[18:04] because whatever you said would be used

[18:06] against you.

[18:07] >> Mhm.

[18:08] >> So, I learned to be very closed,

[18:13] very protective,

[18:14] um and in a certain way selfish,

[18:16] although I didn't think of it as

[18:17] selfish. I thought of it as

[18:19] self-protective.

[18:21] When LBD hit,

[18:25] that shifted, and it shifted

[18:27] dramatically.

[18:29] 2 days after the diagnosis, in fact, I

[18:31] remember sitting in my office on the

[18:33] couch,

[18:34] and I called I must have called 25

[18:37] people.

[18:38] Now, you got to understand, I wouldn't

[18:40] call 25 people in a single day ever.

[18:43] >> Mhm.

[18:43] >> Mhm.

[18:44] >> Mhm.

[18:45] >> Mhm.

[18:45] >> Uh maybe over 6 months,

[18:48] you know, but not in 1 day. And I called

[18:51] them

[18:51] to tell them about the diagnosis and to

[18:54] elicit their support, which also was

[18:57] completely strange for me.

[19:00] And as I was making the calls, I

[19:02] realized

[19:04] oh,

[19:05] I'm not just telling people to give them

[19:08] information.

[19:10] I'm changing the trajectory of my life

[19:14] from one of extreme secrecy and

[19:17] self-protectiveness and to one that is

[19:20] open and connected. I want my life to be

[19:24] connected to other people.

[19:26] And that was one of the most startling

[19:30] and dramatic shifts that I've ever

[19:32] experienced in my life.

[19:33] >> Well, I think the decision to choose not

[19:36] to hide

[19:38] to choose not to hide

[19:41] is just huge.

[19:43] >> it was huge cuz I would have hidden it

[19:46] in the past.

[19:47] >> Yeah, and and the energy that it takes

[19:49] then to hide

[19:51] to cover up

[19:53] >> Oh.

[19:53] >> to pretend

[19:54] >> Yes.

[19:55] >> to not show up for things but giving no

[19:58] explanation or excuses or false excuses

[20:01] and

[20:01] >> Not to mention Not to mention the fact

[20:03] that you just you forego all of that

[20:06] love and support that you could have

[20:08] gotten from people. And that was

[20:11] dangerous for me for for whatever reason

[20:13] growing up in my family. So I just

[20:15] walled that off.

[20:18] >> Every story we share on the Oprah

[20:20] podcast comes [music] from a place of

[20:21] intention. Each guest has their own

[20:24] journey and my hope is that sharing it

[20:26] with us here can help light the way for

[20:29] somebody else. And as the official

[20:31] insurance partner of this podcast, GEICO

[20:33] understands that every [music] journey

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[21:24] forward. And that dear listener is

[21:27] everything.

[21:33] So you all should know that very

[21:35] Michael's has had a thriving therapy

[21:37] practice in Los Angeles for many years

[21:41] and one of his clients is Drew Barrymore

[21:43] who joins us now. Hi Drew.

[21:46] Great to see you as always. I know

[21:48] you're taping today there in New York.

[21:50] So thanks for making time for us. You've

[21:52] called Barry one of your greatest

[21:54] influences.

[21:55] Talk about how he has impacted your life

[21:59] and what this moment means.

[22:01] >> It's so interesting to listen to

[22:03] everything you're saying. I think that

[22:07] Barry

[22:09] has given that directive and that

[22:13] inertia to

[22:15] certainly me

[22:17] as far as not hiding.

[22:20] >> Mhm.

[22:21] >> To embrace what you are going through as

[22:25] not a victim.

[22:27] To look at your choices

[22:31] and see

[22:33] how they are affecting you.

[22:36] And Barry has never been one to tell me

[22:40] at least what I should do or when I

[22:43] should do it or how I should do it or

[22:45] who to do it with.

[22:48] It's in his practice and I think the

[22:52] succinct way that he explains the tools

[22:55] in this book

[22:56] I have studied

[22:58] certain tools with him for over 15

[23:01] years.

[23:02] >> Mhm.

[23:03] >> And the way he writes them in this book

[23:05] is so light bulb because the tools are

[23:09] so incredible and so effective.

[23:13] And I am so glad that he did not hold

[23:17] himself back or close himself off as he

[23:20] would do in his home growing up.

[23:24] Because that's exactly what he has done

[23:27] for all of his patients, certainly me. I

[23:30] should stay in my own lane and speak for

[23:31] myself.

[23:33] Um and I think with this book

[23:36] and certainly what I've experienced over

[23:39] the last 3 years since his diagnosis

[23:41] speaking to him on a weekly basis

[23:45] is that he is opening more.

[23:47] >> Mhm.

[23:48] >> And

[23:49] thanks to this book, as you so perfectly

[23:53] put it, we have this evidence

[23:56] of a choice that we can make when

[23:59] something comes in our path that is

[24:02] either detrimental in the end

[24:06] or the beginning of something.

[24:07] >> Yeah.

[24:08] >> And so it's all in keeping with the

[24:10] Barry I know.

[24:11] >> Well, I know you went through a

[24:12] difficult divorce in 2016, I think it

[24:15] was. And and do you believe as Barry

[24:18] does that challenges, crises,

[24:20] difficulties

[24:22] show up to reveal a greater truth? Did

[24:24] you find that or was he help helpful in

[24:28] allowing you to excavate that for

[24:31] yourself?

[24:32] >> I think it's the perfect balance of

[24:34] accountability.

[24:36] He helped me see what my choices and

[24:39] patterns were because if something keeps

[24:42] presenting itself over and over, what is

[24:45] your part in this?

[24:47] >> Yeah.

[24:48] >> And

[24:49] also that if this is continuing to

[24:53] present itself and it It not of your

[24:56] doing

[24:58] It is there because you have not

[25:00] mastered it yet.

[25:01] >> Yeah.

[25:03] >> And there is tools and a road map to get

[25:07] there. And it is looking at yourself

[25:10] and doing this

[25:13] very

[25:15] focused work

[25:17] that has a tangible

[25:20] guidance to it.

[25:22] >> Mhm. Mhm.

[25:24] >> And I have hit

[25:27] rock bottom the hardest in my life at

[25:30] that point.

[25:32] And I thought I had hit rock bottom at

[25:34] 13. And this was so much bigger than

[25:39] that.

[25:39] >> Mhm. Mhm. I know you stopped working

[25:41] with Drew for a while because of her her

[25:43] drinking during that time. And as as a

[25:45] therapist, was that difficult for you as

[25:47] a decision?

[25:48] >> Oh, yeah.

[25:49] >> Yeah.

[25:49] >> Yeah, it's always

[25:52] I mean, especially cuz I I love Drew. I

[25:54] It was hard to say

[25:56] >> I'm not going to work with him.

[25:57] >> do this. Yeah. But I just felt like

[26:02] I honestly I felt like I owed it to her

[26:04] and to myself. Like we just weren't

[26:07] making progress and I knew we wouldn't

[26:09] until she stopped.

[26:11] >> Yeah. And you took that seriously.

[26:14] >> It was the best thing that could have

[26:15] happened to me. I've never respected a

[26:18] human being more

[26:20] because it demonstrated something for me

[26:22] that I could not understand, which is to

[26:26] have a level of self-respect,

[26:29] to know you're not getting somewhere

[26:31] with someone or anywhere, and you will

[26:33] not until things change.

[26:35] And it taught me a boundary

[26:38] >> Mhm.

[26:38] >> that I just never knew growing up. My

[26:41] life was boundary-less. My job was

[26:43] boundary-less. My behavior was

[26:44] boundary-less.

[26:46] And

[26:47] it also, in not having parents or

[26:50] siblings,

[26:51] for me, I think it is what I would think

[26:54] of as a familial

[26:56] way to care about someone, which is I

[27:00] recognize this in you, and I no longer

[27:03] will stand around and watch it.

[27:05] >> Yeah.

[27:06] So, what have you learned watching Barry

[27:09] move through this

[27:11] devastating illness? I mean, I I as I

[27:13] was open this conversation, I Is there

[27:16] anything worse we can hear

[27:19] than you're going to lose yourself?

[27:23] >> Well, thanks to Barry

[27:26] being on this journey with him, reading

[27:29] his book, speaking to him about it, it

[27:31] gave me confidence and courage in our

[27:35] sessions to ask how he's doing.

[27:38] And through being with him in the last

[27:41] few years,

[27:43] he has helped me understand that

[27:46] we can make peace with things,

[27:49] and our greatest devastations can become

[27:52] our greatest strengths.

[27:53] >> Mhm.

[27:54] >> We lack in control in this world and in

[27:58] this life, and it just scares us into

[28:01] paralysis.

[28:02] >> Yeah.

[28:04] >> And this is the opposite of that.

[28:07] >> So, I have to say

[28:10] it's incredible what you've been able to

[28:12] actually learn from each other, right?

[28:14] >> Mhm.

[28:14] >> Yeah.

[28:14] >> Mhm.

[28:15] >> So, thank you, Drew Barrymore. Thank you

[28:17] so much for joining us. I know you got

[28:19] to get back to work.

[28:22] >> Thank you for having me. Always,

[28:24] anytime, anywhere. Goodbye, and I love

[28:26] you, Barry. Thank you so much.

[28:28] >> Drew. Bye, Drew.

[28:29] >> Bye.

[28:30] >> Maybe you're feeling it, too. With so

[28:32] many ways to reach each other, it

[28:34] [music] can be easy to mistake being

[28:37] reachable for being truly connected.

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[28:40] But, I've learned that what many people

[28:42] are longing for

[28:43] is just to be heard, truly heard by

[28:47] another [music] person.

[28:49] That's what we're trying to do here on

[28:51] the Oprah podcast. I see you

[28:52] contemplating [music] and I can see that

[28:54] you're seeing yourself a different way

[28:56] after he said that. Making space for

[28:59] real connection because [music] every

[29:01] time we stop and actually listen to each

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[29:34] changes everything.

[29:40] So, as we were speaking earlier, you're

[29:42] still seeing patients. What How has this

[29:45] journey

[29:46] changed you as a therapist?

[29:51] >> You know, I'm I'm much more open than

[29:53] I've ever been before, and not just with

[29:55] my patients, but with my friends, with

[29:57] really with everybody.

[29:59] Um I think it's also, strangely and

[30:02] maybe paradoxically,

[30:04] it's made me trust my instincts more.

[30:08] Possibly because I can't really rely on

[30:11] my intellect as

[30:13] as faithfully as I used to.

[30:16] So, in the absence of that, I have to

[30:19] sort of close my eyes and listen and

[30:22] hear what's coming up inside of me

[30:25] and say that.

[30:26] >> Isn't that a good thing?

[30:28] >> It's a great thing, actually. [snorts] I

[30:29] mean, I don't always trust that

[30:31] something's going to come up. You know,

[30:32] sometimes I'm just sitting there

[30:33] waiting, like, what's going to happen

[30:35] here?

[30:36] Um but, you know, more often than not,

[30:38] something does come up, and I love those

[30:42] insights. They're much better than the

[30:44] ones that I come up with.

[30:45] >> How has it changed the way you see every

[30:48] day? Has it changed the way you look at

[30:51] life, you know?

[30:52] >> It's a really good question. I I'm not

[30:55] sure.

[30:59] I I'm not sure it's changed the way I

[31:01] look at life.

[31:03] I appreciate life so much more than I

[31:07] used

[31:07] >> Okay, so it's changed the way you

[31:08] appreciate life.

[31:09] >> Yes. Yes, it it just feels so precious

[31:14] to me, so much more so than it used to.

[31:17] >> And the diagnosis is what? You that says

[31:20] you have how many years before you

[31:22] >> Five to seven.

[31:23] >> And you're in the third?

[31:24] >> Yeah, although that's Louis body

[31:26] dementia, mixed dementia I think might

[31:28] be shorter than that. I'm not sure.

[31:30] >> And so

[31:30] >> Actually, I honestly I try not to like

[31:32] look at that stuff. I try not to think

[31:34] about it.

[31:34] >> Yeah.

[31:35] >> So while preparing this episode, we

[31:37] heard from many of you who are dealing

[31:39] with your own health struggles.

[31:41] Uh and wanted to ask Barry for his

[31:44] advice. Alicia joins us. Alicia, what's

[31:46] going on? Hello.

[31:49] >> Hi, thanks for having me.

[31:50] >> This book I just think it's one of the

[31:52] most beautiful, certainly memoirs I've

[31:55] ever read, and it's so truthful and

[31:57] resonates so powerfully that whatever

[31:59] anybody's going through, reading this,

[32:02] this is going to be one of those books

[32:03] you keep by your bedside forever. But so

[32:05] welcome and and give us your question.

[32:08] >> Really quick, I'm a 43-year-old

[32:10] stay-at-home mom. I have four kids, and

[32:13] a couple months ago in July I was

[32:14] diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.

[32:17] And my question for you is

[32:20] do you feel guilty

[32:23] for having your diagnosis?

[32:25] >> It's a good question. I I sense that you

[32:27] do. I don't.

[32:30] Mostly because in in my family

[32:34] we have a kind of reciprocal

[32:36] caretaking relationship. I take care of

[32:39] my wife with, you know, her medical

[32:41] problems and she takes care of me and it

[32:45] helps that she doesn't make me feel bad

[32:46] about it.

[32:47] >> Mhm.

[32:48] >> Are you struggling with that?

[32:51] >> Yes. Um I don't feel sorry for myself. I

[32:54] feel more sorry for my husband and my

[32:56] kids.

[32:58] Um because I

[33:00] I know that one day I can't be the wife

[33:02] and the mother that I want to be.

[33:04] >> Yeah.

[33:05] >> And um right now I'm kind of in the it's

[33:08] not fair phase. Um why me?

[33:11] >> Yeah.

[33:12] >> How do you overcome the guilt of knowing

[33:15] that

[33:16] you'll never be the same?

[33:20] >> Look, I I can't tell you how to view

[33:23] this, but I can tell you that it will

[33:24] help

[33:26] if you think of it as something

[33:29] that was supposed to happen.

[33:31] I know that that's difficult,

[33:33] but the problem is that if you look at

[33:36] it as something that shouldn't have

[33:38] happened,

[33:39] then you're fighting against something

[33:41] you can't win. You're fighting against

[33:43] reality.

[33:45] And that fight can only lead to

[33:49] resentment and a sense of victimization,

[33:52] which is just an awful place to live in,

[33:55] you know?

[33:56] So what I try to teach my patients to do

[33:59] and what I do myself is to try to

[34:02] imagine that

[34:04] whatever you believe in, whether it's

[34:05] God or fate or the universe, whatever,

[34:09] it

[34:10] wanted me to go through this for a

[34:12] reason. And usually the reason has to do

[34:15] with strength. It has to do with

[34:17] having the fortitude and the courage to

[34:19] overcome something

[34:21] even though you're suffering from it

[34:24] and to overcome it to the degree that

[34:26] you can put out the best energy that you

[34:28] can that you can to other people despite

[34:32] the fact that you're suffering from it.

[34:35] So, how does that land with you?

[34:37] >> It's

[34:38] Uh I think just right now it's just hard

[34:40] to accept.

[34:41] >> Yeah.

[34:41] >> Um

[34:42] >> Key word.

[34:43] >> Right now.

[34:44] >> Key word is accept. Key word is accept

[34:46] because all grief you're grieving the

[34:49] the mother you wanted to be, you're

[34:50] grieving the wife you wanted to be,

[34:52] you're grieving and you know, part of

[34:55] the stages of grief is getting to

[34:58] acceptance. So, you're still angry about

[35:01] it and sad about it, of course. Of

[35:04] course.

[35:05] >> Yeah, more more sad than angry. I try

[35:07] not to hold on to the anger, but

[35:09] definitely

[35:10] frustrated and sad about the future of

[35:13] my family.

[35:14] >> Mhm.

[35:16] I know this sounds like it wouldn't

[35:18] help, but I think it would if you do it

[35:20] repeatedly. When you feel that

[35:24] resentment, sadness, feeling of like I

[35:28] don't want this to be happening,

[35:31] see if you can close your eyes and just

[35:33] accept that whether I want it to be

[35:36] happening or not, it is happening.

[35:40] And there's nothing that I can do to

[35:41] change that.

[35:43] And that might initially make you want

[35:46] to cry because it's sad.

[35:48] >> Mhm.

[35:49] >> But that's the that's the next stage for

[35:54] you to go through to get to acceptance

[35:56] is an acceptance that this is happening

[36:00] no matter what I think of it, whether I

[36:02] like it or hate it or anything else.

[36:05] Once you can go through that enough

[36:07] times, I think you're actually going to

[36:09] be a lot happier because

[36:12] you'll be in acceptance of what's

[36:13] happening to you and you'll be able to

[36:16] stop feeling guilty about your family,

[36:18] stop feeling bad about the disease, you

[36:20] know, and and just live in a in a

[36:22] greater place of acceptance.

[36:24] >> Mhm.

[36:24] >> Cuz right now, I appreciate it what you

[36:26] said to her.

[36:28] But you're fighting against something

[36:29] that you can't win.

[36:30] >> Exactly.

[36:31] >> Yeah, cuz you're wanting it to be what

[36:34] it is not going to be ever again.

[36:37] >> All day, every day, I treat people who

[36:39] want their life to be different from

[36:41] what it is,

[36:43] but they can't make it different. It's

[36:45] God's will, or it's fate, or whatever

[36:47] you want to call it,

[36:49] but it's invariable. It's not in their

[36:51] power to change it.

[36:53] And when that happens, you have to

[36:55] accept a level of powerlessness that's,

[36:58] you know, uncomfortable for most of us

[36:59] to accept.

[37:01] >> you got to this stage of acceptance. You

[37:04] had your cries. You had your grieving,

[37:07] your sadness, your anger, even denial

[37:11] about it. So,

[37:12] >> Totally.

[37:12] >> we're going to allow you that space,

[37:15] Alicia,

[37:16] and

[37:17] hope and pray that you get to acceptance

[37:21] sooner

[37:22] than

[37:24] where you are right now.

[37:26] >> Well, thank you.

[37:27] >> Can I say one other thing about that?

[37:29] It'll be one of the greatest gifts that

[37:31] you can give to your to your family.

[37:34] >> Yeah.

[37:35] >> Because whether they know it or not

[37:36] consciously, they sense that you're

[37:38] fighting with what you're going through.

[37:40] >> feel your resistance.

[37:41] >> Yeah.

[37:42] >> Your family feels your resistance. How

[37:45] old are your children?

[37:47] >> Uh my youngest is 10, and my oldest

[37:49] [clears throat] is 21.

[37:50] >> Yeah. Well, I was going to say no matter

[37:52] how young or old they are, even if

[37:54] they're young ones in the house, they

[37:56] sense that resistance in some way.

[37:58] Energetically, they will feel the

[38:00] vibration of whatever that is. And so, I

[38:02] think because you are such a caring,

[38:04] loving mother,

[38:06] and your question was about

[38:09] feeling guilty about what's going to

[38:11] happen to them,

[38:12] that having the perspective of knowing

[38:16] that you're getting to acceptance sooner

[38:19] actually is going to help them rather

[38:21] than you resisting

[38:23] as you are. And I know it's your own

[38:25] journey to get there and nobody's

[38:27] telling you how soon you have to get

[38:28] there, but the sooner you get there as

[38:31] as as we're hearing

[38:33] the better it's going to be for

[38:34] everybody in the family, not just for

[38:36] you cuz they're they they can feel where

[38:38] you are. Yeah.

[38:40] And you all and and whether you like it

[38:43] or not or have accepted it or not, this

[38:46] is a journey that your family is going

[38:48] to have to take together.

[38:50] So, the dream that you had shifts.

[38:54] >> Yeah.

[38:55] >> The dream that you had shifts and now

[38:56] you have another dream. You create

[38:58] another dream. Is

[38:59] >> That's exactly right.

[39:01] >> Yeah.

[39:01] >> Exactly right.

[39:02] >> Thank you, Alicia. Thank you. Thank you

[39:04] so much.

[39:04] >> Thank you.

[39:05] >> All right.

[39:06] How has this impacted your relationship

[39:09] with your wife, Judy? You were talking

[39:10] about how you all work in tandem.

[39:13] >> It

[39:14] >> I think that helps when you have

[39:15] somebody who understands and cares and

[39:18] >> My wife is a therapist also and um

[39:23] Sorry.

[39:25] It um has brought us so close together

[39:30] and it has allowed me to I'm a very very

[39:34] self-reliant person. I learned very

[39:36] early on not to depend on anybody.

[39:39] And I have let down and depended on her

[39:41] in ways that I never thought were

[39:43] possible. I I

[39:46] It's astonishing how much closer we are

[39:48] to each other as a result of this. I

[39:49] mean, it's one of those strange

[39:51] paradoxical things where a horrible

[39:53] reality

[39:54] has just really brought us

[39:56] >> Well, because you cannot help but be

[39:59] vulnerable.

[40:00] >> Yeah.

[40:01] >> And vulnerability is what creates the

[40:04] greatest sense of connection and

[40:05] intimacy, does it not?

[40:07] >> Beautifully said.

[40:08] >> Yeah.

[40:08] >> Exactly right. And let me say one other

[40:10] thing about that. My wife

[40:12] is an extraordinarily

[40:15] sensitive, caretaking person. I mean,

[40:18] she just takes such good care of me as

[40:21] well. So, it's not just that I've leaned

[40:24] on her, it's that

[40:25] I've seen a side of her that I I sort of

[40:28] knew existed cuz I saw it with my kids

[40:30] and I saw it with her friends, but to be

[40:33] the recipient of it

[40:35] has been life-changing.

[40:38] Just life-changing.

[40:41] >> Let's hear from one more listener. Alex,

[40:43] what's your question for Barry?

[40:45] >> Hi, Alex.

[40:47] >> How are you doing? Thank you for having

[40:48] me, Oprah. And thank you, Barry, for

[40:50] just being vulnerable and sharing your

[40:51] story. A little bit about me, I'm a

[40:54] personal trainer from Pittsburgh,

[40:56] Pennsylvania. Uh 3 years ago at 37, my

[40:59] life changed completely. I went to the

[41:01] ER thinking I might have kidney stones,

[41:03] only to find out my blood pressure was

[41:05] 260 over 150. And after some more

[41:08] testing, I was told I had stage four

[41:10] kidney failure and we needed a new

[41:12] kidney.

[41:13] Uh immediately started dialysis and

[41:15] thankfully received a kidney from my

[41:16] sister later that year.

[41:18] Now, all the medications I'm on uh

[41:21] prevent me daily from doing the things I

[41:23] used to do. I'm just a very fit person.

[41:26] And I feel like part of my identity

[41:29] um I built over the years was taken away

[41:31] from me.

[41:33] So, my question to Barry is, how did you

[41:34] learn to let go

[41:36] um of the person that

[41:38] you were and embrace the person you're

[41:39] becoming? Um also, like how did you make

[41:42] peace with that transition?

[41:46] >> It took time. Um and what I had to do

[41:49] was

[41:51] actively let go of the things that were

[41:54] being taken away from me. You know, my

[41:57] first reaction, and I suspect it's

[41:58] probably yours, is this isn't fair.

[42:02] It shouldn't be happening to me.

[42:05] And unfortunately, that's pretty

[42:07] worthless because it is happening to you

[42:09] whether you like it or not. So, I had to

[42:12] overcome that and I had to say to myself

[42:14] what I say to my patients, which which

[42:16] is

[42:17] it doesn't matter what you think should

[42:19] be happening. Your opinions don't matter

[42:21] in this instance.

[42:23] Reality is what matters and the reality

[42:26] is you have to let go of certain things.

[42:30] What I also used was a tool that um my

[42:33] mentor Phil Stutz calls loss processing.

[42:36] It's a way of processing a loss.

[42:39] You take the thing that you're

[42:41] that you're losing and you sort of

[42:42] visualize it in front of you and then

[42:45] you imagine it being taken away from

[42:47] you, but instead of resisting it, which

[42:49] we all do, you let go of it. You

[42:53] actively let it go and you watch as it

[42:56] sort of disappears over the horizon.

[42:58] And a lot of times I cry at that point

[43:00] cuz I don't really want to let go, but

[43:03] I'm I am letting go.

[43:04] >> Mhm.

[43:05] >> And you let go and then you're left with

[43:08] a feeling of

[43:11] completeness because you're no longer

[43:13] holding on to something that you can't

[43:15] have anyway.

[43:16] >> Mhm.

[43:17] >> Let me explain that for a moment. When

[43:18] you're holding on to something that you

[43:20] can't actually have, you feel incomplete

[43:23] because you don't have the thing that

[43:25] you want to have. Letting go of it

[43:28] actually allows you to feel whole

[43:30] because you're you're not you're not

[43:32] wishing for something you can't have.

[43:34] >> It's again like like you were saying

[43:36] earlier, do you you you heard what he

[43:38] was saying to Alicia, fighting against

[43:40] something that you cannot win.

[43:43] And so what is it you fear most having

[43:46] to let go of?

[43:49] >> Um I I feel just letting go of who I've

[43:51] known myself to be over the past uh 40

[43:54] years of my life.

[43:55] And just the unexpected of it getting

[43:58] taken away and you really had no say,

[44:01] you couldn't

[44:02] mentally uh get yourself ready for that

[44:05] transition. You were forced into that

[44:07] transition.

[44:08] >> So, now you're in the process of

[44:10] reinventing.

[44:12] >> Yes.

[44:12] >> Yeah. I think that's exciting.

[44:14] >> the journey, but still trying to let go.

[44:16] >> It is. It may not feel exciting in the

[44:18] initial stages, but it is exciting.

[44:21] >> Yeah.

[44:21] >> Yeah. So, the question isn't about The

[44:24] question then doesn't become about who

[44:26] I've had to let go, but now who can I

[44:28] be?

[44:28] >> Yes.

[44:29] >> Who am I going to become? And if you

[44:31] can,

[44:32] try to cultivate some

[44:35] anticipatory excitement about that.

[44:37] Like, who knows?

[44:40] I may be I may be better than I was

[44:42] before for all I know. You You never

[44:44] know.

[44:45] >> Exactly.

[44:46] >> Yeah. But, if your identity has always

[44:48] been in the physical,

[44:50] you know, your ability to your prowess

[44:53] in physicality, then maybe it means

[44:56] you're being opened and expanded to

[44:58] something that you never even imagined,

[45:01] Alex.

[45:02] >> Yes. Um that's honestly I'm looking

[45:05] forward to it. I've let go a little bit,

[45:07] but I'm I'm still holding on a little to

[45:09] the to the past.

[45:10] >> You're not Are you still in the why me

[45:12] Are you Are you still in the why me

[45:14] stage?

[45:15] >> Um I was never in that stage, actually.

[45:18] I I was more, "Okay, this is an issue.

[45:21] Let's fix it and let's start the steps

[45:23] um to get back to a normal way of

[45:25] living."

[45:25] >> Mhm.

[45:26] >> Right. You're You're more For you, it's

[45:29] more like I just don't want this to be

[45:31] happening.

[45:33] >> Yes.

[45:33] >> Yeah.

[45:34] >> How long ago was your transplant? How

[45:36] long ago?

[45:37] >> Uh December 2023. So, it'll be 3 years

[45:40] this December.

[45:41] >> Okay.

[45:42] Grateful to have had your sister's

[45:44] kidney. Wow.

[45:45] >> Yes, ma'am.

[45:46] >> Yeah. Thank you, Alex. Thank you.

[45:48] >> Thanks.

[45:48] >> Thank you very much.

[45:49] >> Okay.

[45:50] You write about too

[45:52] how this experience has revealed God's

[45:56] love for you.

[45:58] And I read that you were one At one time

[46:01] you were an atheist. So, tell about

[46:04] How did that happen?

[46:06] Tell us

[46:06] >> That's the strangest part of this story

[46:09] because I was raised in a household that

[46:11] was not just atheistic, but militantly

[46:14] atheistic. I mean, my mother

[46:16] used to school me in the refutations of

[46:20] the arguments in favor of God. Like, it

[46:23] was almost like she I don't know what

[46:24] she expected, but but just in case I was

[46:27] ever exposed to anyone who believed in

[46:29] God and tried to convince me that God

[46:31] existed, I had an argument for every

[46:34] argument that they

[46:35] >> didn't that happen younger, too?

[46:36] [clears throat] When you were in

[46:36] elementary

[46:37] >> yeah. I know it started almost at birth.

[46:39] I mean, she was really really intensely

[46:42] atheistic. Both my parents were.

[46:45] Um I'm sorry. I was going

[46:47] >> And not even wanting anybody to talk to

[46:48] you about God and when Yeah, yeah. If

[46:50] somebody mentioned God or a kid

[46:52] mentioned God

[46:53] >> No, I I slept over at a friend of mine

[46:55] friend's house

[46:56] >> Yes. And uh the family was Catholic and

[47:00] when we went to bed, they said the

[47:02] Lord's Prayer and I didn't really think

[47:04] anything of it. Um I thought it was

[47:06] actually kind of sweet.

[47:07] >> Mhm.

[47:07] >> But when I got home and made the mistake

[47:09] of telling my mother,

[47:11] she got very upset and she I I remember

[47:15] being schooled for about a week every

[47:17] night about how we refute the belief in

[47:21] God, you know, in case anybody

[47:24] tries to convince you, you know, that

[47:26] God is real. This is how This is what

[47:28] you have to say.

[47:28] >> I just love that. Don't you go over

[47:31] there saying the Lord's Prayer.

[47:33] >> [laughter]

[47:33] >> wild

[47:34] >> wild wild

[47:35] >> Yeah.

[47:36] >> And so, now

[47:37] you call it the life force,

[47:41] which I love I love I love I have so

[47:42] many names for God. So, the life force.

[47:45] I remember you used to have these

[47:46] conversations with Sidney Poitier. He

[47:48] would always say the forces. I would use

[47:50] it we use the term God and he would say,

[47:52] "Well, the forces." And I would say,

[47:53] "Why can't you just call it God?" He

[47:56] goes, "Why can't you just call it the

[47:58] the forces?"

[48:00] So,

[48:01] wherever you are now, Sydney, I agree

[48:03] with you and you probably now agree with

[48:06] me. So, what what happened?

[48:09] >> I had an extraordinary experience and I

[48:12] kept having it over and over again,

[48:14] which was soon after I was diagnosed.

[48:18] One of the just so you know, one of the

[48:20] symptoms of the disease is that you wake

[48:21] up incredibly early. I get up at 2:00 or

[48:24] 3:00 in the morning every morning.

[48:26] >> Mhm.

[48:26] >> Um which weirdly I have come not to mind

[48:30] because it's kind of a magical time, you

[48:32] know. It's very dark.

[48:34] >> Means means you just wake up?

[48:35] >> I wake up and I go to my office and I

[48:38] found myself more and more

[48:41] getting down on my knees to pray, even

[48:44] though I wasn't sure I believed in God.

[48:46] I just was felt like called to do that.

[48:50] And very soon after I was diagnosed, I

[48:54] was

[48:55] up there one morning, it was very dark

[48:58] outside, very quiet and I was praying

[49:00] silently.

[49:02] There weren't any words or anything. I

[49:03] was just asking for help.

[49:07] And I felt this unmistakable presence in

[49:10] the room with me.

[49:12] >> Mhm.

[49:13] >> And I

[49:15] I couldn't believe it. Like it was like,

[49:17] "Come on. This isn't really happening,

[49:19] is it?"

[49:21] But it was really happening. It was a

[49:23] real presence.

[49:25] And it was

[49:27] a comforting presence. It was

[49:31] something I'd never really experienced

[49:33] before, like a like a presence that

[49:35] really wanted to reach me and help me

[49:39] and soothe me.

[49:41] And that happened

[49:43] every single morning for

[49:46] several years. It sort of faded out

[49:48] after a while.

[49:50] I think it had played its purpose, which

[49:52] was to

[49:54] give me an immediate experience of a

[49:56] higher power that I then

[50:00] used

[50:02] to soothe myself with and to make me

[50:04] feel

[50:05] >> So you know it's there. I mean, I feel

[50:07] that presence all the time.

[50:08] >> That's amazing.

[50:09] >> It abides with me.

[50:10] >> That's amazing. The And it was

[50:12] not the God that I had been used to

[50:16] reading about. It wasn't a transcendent

[50:18] It was imminent. It was right here,

[50:21] right now.

[50:22] >> Mhm.

[50:23] >> And loving me with immense force.

[50:26] >> Life force.

[50:27] >> Life force.

[50:28] >> Life force. Yeah, I love that title

[50:30] title for it.

[50:32] This is from

[50:33] one of your poems.

[50:35] Do you write all the time?

[50:36] >> Every day.

[50:37] >> Every day.

[50:38] >> Yeah.

[50:38] >> And this is called Death Dance with the

[50:41] Divine.

[50:43] You say, "Take it from someone who's

[50:44] dying.

[50:46] God doesn't really care what you choose

[50:49] to do with your life.

[50:51] What God cares about is not what you

[50:53] choose to do, but how you do it.

[50:57] God wants to see you pursuing life with

[51:01] your blood, your guts,

[51:04] your heart, and your soul with the

[51:07] all-consuming

[51:09] divine fire

[51:11] you have inside you.

[51:13] So when people ask me,

[51:16] 'What did you do when you found out you

[51:18] were living under a death sentence?' My

[51:20] answer is,

[51:22] 'I gave it all away.

[51:25] All of it.

[51:27] Every last drop.

[51:29] And I danced with the divine.'

[51:33] That is so beautiful.

[51:34] >> Thank you.

[51:36] >> I know writing, especially poetry, has

[51:39] become

[51:40] like a

[51:42] balm, like a salvation for you. So

[51:46] What it What What does it do for you,

[51:48] the writing?

[51:51] >> I think more than anything else, it

[51:52] gives me a chance to express myself

[51:54] creatively. I'm I'm kind of a freak for

[51:58] beauty in of all sorts, like the beauty

[52:01] of nature, the beauty of language,

[52:04] the beauty of God,

[52:06] and

[52:08] writing is the medium that I'm most

[52:11] familiar and comfortable with. So,

[52:14] when I write poetry and I I I almost

[52:17] hesitate to say I write poetry because

[52:19] it feels like it writes me. Like it

[52:21] comes through me, not from me.

[52:24] But, that's

[52:26] that's my first experience each day with

[52:28] beauty. Is Oh, these words are spilling

[52:31] out, coming through me, and

[52:34] they're

[52:36] I don't really care whether anyone else

[52:38] likes it or, you know, evaluates it or

[52:40] anything. It just

[52:42] it's just the way my soul needs to

[52:45] create beauty is through poetry.

[52:48] >> You you you can you explain the concept

[52:50] of outflow that you talk about? Yeah.

[52:52] Can you experience outflow at a batting

[52:54] cage? Tell us that story.

[52:55] >> Yes. Um

[52:58] So, just to start with outflow, outflow

[53:01] is a tool that you use,

[53:03] um

[53:04] when you're feeling blocked or when

[53:06] you're feeling down or when you're

[53:08] feeling disconnected from people, what

[53:10] you do is very it's a very simple tool.

[53:12] You imagine that there's an infinite

[53:14] amount of energy inside of you, inside

[53:17] your heart, which I actually believe is

[53:19] is real, but you imagine it. Um so, it's

[53:22] sort of like the sun is shining from

[53:25] inside of you.

[53:26] And then what you do is you take that

[53:28] energy and you flow [snorts]

[53:29] it out

[53:31] to everything and everyone around you.

[53:34] And what that does is it creates a

[53:36] feeling of

[53:39] I belong here.

[53:40] I belong here, and I am meant to be an

[53:44] avatar of

[53:47] sacred energy. And every human being is.

[53:51] So, it helps with lots of different

[53:52] things. It helps with depression. It

[53:55] helps with self-expression problems, you

[53:57] know, expressing yourself. It helps with

[53:59] connecting with people when you can,

[54:02] you know, go to a party where you don't

[54:04] know anybody, and you can use outflow,

[54:06] you're going to find it easier to talk

[54:07] to people, you know. So, it's it's a

[54:10] multi-purpose tool, but it's a tool that

[54:13] I use a lot because

[54:16] in my childhood, for self-protective

[54:19] reasons, I developed the habit of

[54:21] shutting down and turning inward.

[54:23] >> Mhm.

[54:24] >> And that's terrible for a person. It's

[54:26] It cuts you off from resources you have.

[54:28] So, outflow redirects my energy and puts

[54:32] me back in the posture where I'm potent,

[54:35] and I have something to give.

[54:37] >> And the batting cage story?

[54:39] >> And the batting cage story was such a

[54:42] delightful event. Um,

[54:45] a friend was driving me back home, and

[54:48] we passed a batting cage.

[54:50] And we just sort of looked at each other

[54:52] like,

[54:53] "Batting cage, really? You think we

[54:55] should go do this? Yeah, like I'm in my

[54:58] 70s."

[54:59] >> [laughter]

[55:00] >> Um, and we decided, "Yeah, let's go for

[55:02] it." So, we went to the batting cage.

[55:05] And

[55:07] we had the craziest good time I've had

[55:11] in so many years. It felt so good to be

[55:15] back in that, to feel my body like I

[55:18] used to love playing baseball.

[55:20] >> Mhm.

[55:21] >> And he did, too. And we just

[55:23] we we both just marveled at the end of

[55:26] it how delightful it was and how

[55:29] wonderful Part of it was just the spon-

[55:32] sheer spontaneity

[55:33] >> Spontaneity of it.

[55:34] >> Yeah.

[55:34] >> Sounds like the spontaneity of it.

[55:35] >> Yeah.

[55:36] >> In that moment. Yes.

[55:37] >> And And part of was just returning to

[55:39] youth and feeling those

[55:41] muscles in your body that you haven't

[55:43] used in such a long time and the just

[55:45] the feeling of like, "Oh my god, I can

[55:46] still hit a baseball."

[55:48] >> [laughter]

[55:50] >> Here's what you write about mortality.

[55:52] You say the life expectancy of someone

[55:56] you know, with your diagnosis is 5 to 7

[55:59] years and you were

[56:01] diagnosed 3 years ago, we were saying

[56:03] earlier.

[56:04] The closer I come to leaving this world,

[56:07] the more vivid everything becomes.

[56:11] The slant of light on the floorboards,

[56:14] the sound of my wife breathing beside

[56:16] me,

[56:17] the taste of water.

[56:20] It all feels saturated with divinity.

[56:23] The world hasn't changed. I have.

[56:28] So, how have you come to see your own

[56:30] mortality?

[56:35] >> I know this sounds strange, but I've

[56:37] come to see it as a blessing

[56:41] because it has awakened

[56:43] those

[56:45] those feelings.

[56:47] And

[56:48] look, the truth is I was going to die

[56:50] anyway. We all are.

[56:52] But in my case

[56:54] the way it happened

[56:57] enabled me to see life with a whole new

[57:01] whole new vision, whole new

[57:04] way of looking.

[57:06] So,

[57:08] look, I cried every single day for the

[57:11] first year. Every day I wept bitterly.

[57:16] But now I'm in a different place. It's

[57:18] like

[57:21] it's strange to say, but this was a good

[57:23] thing. It awakened my soul

[57:27] in ways that I don't think that it ever

[57:29] would have been awakened.

[57:32] So,

[57:34] go figure.

[57:35] >> What's Yeah, go figure.

[57:36] >> [laughter]

[57:37] >> What what what's the what's the big

[57:39] takeaway, the one lesson you'd like

[57:41] people

[57:43] reading ahead of all parting or

[57:45] listening to us right now

[57:47] to receive? What do you want us to know?

[57:50] >> I think what I what what I would say is

[57:53] the big lesson, at least for me, from

[57:56] all of this is

[57:58] don't be so sure that the things that

[58:01] you hate, that that the things that feel

[58:04] adverse, you know, that you

[58:06] don't be so sure that they're so bad or

[58:09] that they're

[58:10] absolutely bad.

[58:12] There's something good in every single

[58:15] experience that you have in your life.

[58:18] And the worse the experience is,

[58:21] the more it kind of shatters the things

[58:24] that need to be shattered and awakens

[58:26] the things to that need to be awakened.

[58:29] And it's so important for us to be able

[58:32] to accept those lessons and grow from

[58:35] them.

[58:37] >> I want to talk about the title Ahead of

[58:39] All Parting.

[58:41] Where did that title come from?

[58:43] >> It's a poem by Rainer Maria Rilke, who's

[58:46] one of my favorite poets. And what Rilke

[58:49] is saying in the poem is that

[58:52] we need to get ahead of death in the

[58:54] sense of

[58:56] anticipating

[58:58] that our lives will come to an end,

[59:01] which means that this moment matters.

[59:05] If there's no death, then this moment

[59:08] doesn't matter because you have an

[59:09] infinite number of them to come.

[59:11] >> Right.

[59:12] >> So, it's I love that poem because it it

[59:15] >> The first line is Be ahead of all

[59:16] parting as if it had already happened.

[59:20] >> Exactly. Exactly. So, he's telling us

[59:24] grab life, take a hold of it. Make each

[59:28] moment meaningful. Don't treat it as if

[59:31] you had an infinite number of moments

[59:33] cuz you don't, you know, kind of thing.

[59:36] So, that's that's what I take from the

[59:38] poem.

[59:39] >> Mhm.

[59:40] Well, I first of all I want you to close

[59:43] by reading um

[59:45] your poem because at the end of the book

[59:47] you write a final poem for the reader.

[59:51] And before that, I just would like to

[59:54] say I just think it's just so courageous

[59:58] of you, daring of you.

[1:00:01] And I'm so grateful to you for making

[1:00:04] the trip up here today because first of

[1:00:06] all, I was when I as I said to you when

[1:00:08] I first read this I was wondering

[1:00:10] are you going to be okay? And I'm sure

[1:00:14] you had to think yourself, am I going to

[1:00:17] be okay

[1:00:18] for this interview today?

[1:00:19] >> Absolutely.

[1:00:20] >> And I want you to know you're very much

[1:00:23] okay.

[1:00:24] >> Thank you.

[1:00:25] >> Very much [laughter] okay.

[1:00:26] >> Thank you.

[1:00:28] >> Very much thank you.

[1:00:30] And now you can read us your poem. We're

[1:00:31] going to close with your poem.

[1:00:34] >> Empty yourself of knowing.

[1:00:37] Yearn without shame.

[1:00:39] Give without calculation.

[1:00:42] Dance when you can.

[1:00:44] Cry when you must.

[1:00:46] Every act of surrender is an opening

[1:00:49] through which God can enter.

[1:00:52] >> Mhm.

[1:00:54] Every act of surrender is an opening

[1:00:58] through which God can enter.

[1:01:02] Thank you, Barry Michaels.

[1:01:04] A big thank you to the wonderful Drew

[1:01:06] Barrymore and to Alicia and Alex. Thank

[1:01:08] you, too, for listening and asking your

[1:01:10] questions. I I really I cannot recommend

[1:01:14] a book any stronger. I hope you'll pick

[1:01:16] up a copy of A Head of All Parting for

[1:01:18] yourself or someone you love who may be

[1:01:21] in need of Barry's wisdom. And go well,

[1:01:24] everybody.

[1:01:26] >> Brené Brown Michael's extraordinary

[1:01:27] memoir, "Ahead

[1:01:29] >> [music]

[1:01:29] >> of All Parting" is available now. This

[1:01:32] book is filled with so much insight,

[1:01:34] perspective, [music] wisdom.

[1:01:36] I hope you pick up a copy for yourself

[1:01:38] and somebody you love. Just scan the QR

[1:01:41] code there on your screen. [music]

[1:01:43] >> Our listeners tell us that the podcast

[1:01:46] is resonating with you and is serving as

[1:01:48] a bright [music] spot in your day. That

[1:01:51] means a lot to me. So, here's the thing.

[1:01:53] I would really appreciate it if you like

[1:01:56] and subscribe [music]

[1:01:56] to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or

[1:01:59] wherever you podcast. It's it's just a

[1:02:01] quick tap of the [music] subscribe

[1:02:03] button. And that way you won't miss an

[1:02:05] episode in your queue. You don't have to

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[1:02:09] I know subscribe usually means you're

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Oprah Winfrey
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Lewy-body-dementiaMixed-dementiaAdversity-and-purposeThe-tools-stutz-michelsGrief-and-acceptance

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

In the conversation, Barry Michels describes Lewy body dementia as a brain disease that causes a gradual wasting away of the personality, so the person loses their sense of self. He says its symptoms are a lot like Alzheimer's and that it can be worse, and he notes a combined condition called mixed dementia, which he says he has. The episode frames the core fear as losing one's identity, not just memory.
Oprah's question in this episode is whether adversity can carry purpose, and Michels answers by describing what he learned through his diagnosis rather than claiming the illness is good. He says the path has opened him to vulnerability, love, prayer, and writing. The distinction he draws is between a reason and a lesson: the disease is not presented as a gift, but the response to it can become one.
The Tools is a New York Times bestseller co-written by Barry Michels and his longtime collaborator Phil Stutz. It uses mental exercises with names like active love, grateful flow, and loss processing. The stated goal is to help people confront psychological obstacles and transform them into growth opportunities.
Michels says he has good days and bad days and that his brain is sometimes filled with fog in the morning. He manages by exercising, writing poetry, and then seeing patients, and he reports that once a session begins he is fully present. He also says he stops practicing on days when he feels he would not be helpful to a client.
Michels describes overhearing his wife Judy tell a nurse, during a phone call left open by accident, that he also had Alzheimer's, which he did not yet know. When he confronted her, she told him yes and apologized for withholding it, explaining that their doctor had thought it wise to keep the information from her. The episode treats this moment as the start of his full reckoning.
Ahead of All Parting is Barry Michels's memoir, chronicling his path from diagnosis to acceptance of his terminal illness. Oprah describes it as a book for anyone going through a trial or who simply appreciates being human. The book's themes include vulnerability, love, prayer, and the written word.
Oprah cited a statistic she had read that places dementia alongside cancer as the most feared medical condition. She said the fear centers on losing the self, and she contrasted dementia with cancer, which may have a cure or treatment options. The conversation builds on that difference.

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