Transcript
[0:00] Hi there. Great to be with you here on
[0:02] the Oprah podcast. Whether you are in
[0:05] pmenopause
[0:07] or menopause or post-menopause.
[0:11] So that means millions of you. I have
[0:14] the book for you. It's called the book
[0:17] of menopause. Real talk, real science,
[0:21] real strategies for your next chapter.
[0:24] And believe me, it's the next chapter.
[0:26] The editors at Oprah Daily have curated
[0:29] the most crucial information that we've
[0:32] all learned over the years about
[0:34] menopause from doctors and from
[0:38] psychologists and from all of the health
[0:41] experts. Uh joining me in the tea house
[0:43] is the editorial director of Opra Daily,
[0:45] Par Guzman. Hello, Par.
[0:48] >> Hello. You and I know that anytime we've
[0:51] talked about menopause on Oprah daily, I
[0:53] mean, we were one of the first to start
[0:55] this conversation several years ago, I
[0:58] think the New York Times had done an
[0:59] article and then we did a whole
[1:02] conversation about it in the Hurst
[1:05] building in New York. And anytime we
[1:07] talk about it, it actually becomes the
[1:09] most read content. Women are in real
[1:13] need of, I think, reliable information.
[1:17] and also what we've seen from Oprah
[1:19] daily in need of community. So what what
[1:22] have you been hearing from women?
[1:24] >> I think the the storytelling uh the
[1:28] sharing of people's experiences has been
[1:31] this incredible accelerator. You know,
[1:33] there is the research, there is the
[1:35] journalism, there is the storytelling
[1:37] that we do as a brand, but then the
[1:39] women themselves talking to each other
[1:42] and talking to us and sharing their
[1:44] symptoms and sharing their experiences
[1:46] has been this incredible ground swell.
[1:49] Did you notice that there has been a
[1:54] moment of breakthrough when like there
[1:58] was before and now there's this moment
[2:00] where it seems that more women are open
[2:03] to talking about it.
[2:05] >> Absolutely. And I think it is not unlike
[2:07] the me too movement where it takes a few
[2:09] brave souls to kind of break the ice and
[2:12] break the silence
[2:13] >> and normalize the conversation. And I
[2:15] think part of it is that it's still, you
[2:17] know, very felt very shameful for a
[2:19] really long time until recently. I mean,
[2:21] you're you 20 years ago when you went
[2:23] through menopause and tried to get
[2:25] people to come on the show, they
[2:26] wouldn't do it. And now
[2:28] >> nobody, particularly anybody famous,
[2:30] wanted to say they were going through
[2:31] it. Yeah.
[2:32] >> And so it's like a Naomi Watts who kind
[2:34] of, you know, broke broke the ice and
[2:37] then
[2:37] >> Halib Berry.
[2:38] >> Halle B. Exactly. Drew.
[2:39] >> Drew.
[2:40] >> Yeah.
[2:40] >> Yeah. um and Maria Shrivever and you and
[2:43] you know and and then it gives pe it
[2:45] emboldens others to share their stories
[2:48] and to uh normalize it and to to feel
[2:51] okay about it and not feel so alone.
[2:53] >> Yeah. Well, I share my own story in the
[2:55] book. I was around uh so you can find my
[2:58] story in this book um menopause real
[3:01] talk real science and I was around 48
[3:04] when I started experiencing hard
[3:07] palpitations and I went to as I say in
[3:11] in in in this book I went to five
[3:14] different doctors I mean one after the
[3:16] other after the other and none of them
[3:18] had answers and it wasn't until I picked
[3:21] up a book at the office that I I learned
[3:23] that what I was experiencing I'd and
[3:25] having these heart palpitations and
[3:26] sleeplessness were indications of
[3:30] menopause. So, what was it like for you?
[3:33] >> Well, I didn't have heart palpitations,
[3:35] but I had sleepless nights. I was my
[3:39] mind was racing. I had more than usual
[3:42] anxiety. I'm a little prone to anxiety,
[3:44] but there was more than normal.
[3:46] >> And I went to the doctor and I have a
[3:48] wonderful OB/GYN who I really trust
[3:50] delivered both my children. And she
[3:52] said, "Oh, let's do let's you know you
[3:54] your your levels are fine." We did the
[3:56] bloods and the levels were fine, but I
[3:58] said, "No, I I pushed back and I and I
[4:02] got hormones, but I think a lot of women
[4:04] don't feel brave enough to sort of push
[4:06] back against the the you know, the
[4:08] advice of their doctors and and I think
[4:10] she has even changed her tune in the in
[4:13] their last few years since I since that
[4:15] first visit when I first came to her
[4:17] about that." But I I think about all the
[4:18] women who don't feel emboldened to say,
[4:22] "Wait a minute."
[4:23] >> Yeah. The moment their doctors say, "No,
[4:24] you shouldn't," which I've had doctors
[4:26] who said, "No, you shouldn't do
[4:27] hormones." The moment you hear that,
[4:29] you're just like, "Oh, okay." Okay.
[4:31] >> Yeah.
[4:31] >> Well, women spend 41% that's nearly half
[4:34] of their lives in the post reproductive
[4:38] state, you all. And even though I I I
[4:40] have to say I've been doing I've been
[4:42] talking and talking and talking about
[4:43] this for a few years now, there's still
[4:46] so much that you all don't know that a
[4:49] lot of people don't know. And why do you
[4:51] think that is?
[4:52] >> I think there's still a lag in education
[4:55] in medical schools. I mean you will talk
[4:57] to some of the experts we're having
[5:00] we'll have on today. I think you know
[5:01] they will tell you that they didn't even
[5:03] learn this in medical school. So there
[5:05] is a lag in you know midlife women's
[5:08] health education even among doctors. And
[5:11] then of course there was the famous
[5:12] women's health initiative which set
[5:14] which set it back by you know two
[5:16] decades essentially.
[5:17] >> That's right. Uh and
[5:18] >> so many women suffered because of that.
[5:20] >> That's right.
[5:21] >> Because of that misrepresented study
[5:23] actually.
[5:24] >> Yes.
[5:24] >> So many women did. So Congress just
[5:26] recently held its first ever hearing on
[5:28] menopause calling for more research,
[5:32] more education. So, does that mean that
[5:34] the tides are finally beginning to turn,
[5:36] do you think?
[5:37] >> I think I am I am cautiously optimistic
[5:40] that the answer is yes. But we cannot
[5:42] take our foot off of the gas pedal in
[5:44] terms of continuing to tell stories,
[5:47] continuing to write stories, continuing
[5:50] to put pressure on government, on on our
[5:53] own doctors. I think even just our
[5:55] individual advocacy is so important when
[5:58] we go into the doctor's office and
[5:59] demand something else and actually will
[6:02] leave a practice if they they are you
[6:04] know even even if there's a whiff of
[6:06] resistance and I actually encourage
[6:08] women to say to call if they're you know
[6:10] interviewing a new doctor or they're
[6:11] going to see a new doctor make sure that
[6:13] they are open if they are of age if they
[6:16] that they're open to hormone therapy
[6:18] because many doctors are still
[6:20] resistant. If you have an older older
[6:22] doctor, they're going to be resistant
[6:24] because they're still basing it on the
[6:26] misrepresented study. So, how do you
[6:28] believe polar we begin to um
[6:33] just uh eradicate a lot of the shame
[6:36] that women have around menopause? You
[6:38] know, we've written about it
[6:40] consistently on O magazine, on Oprah
[6:43] daily. I've talked about it, but there's
[6:45] I can't believe that people are still
[6:47] like embarrassed about it.
[6:49] >> I feel the same way. And I think I think
[6:51] the more I think social media helps a
[6:53] lot.
[6:53] >> Yeah. I would do
[6:54] >> and this is where social media is a
[6:56] force of good because you hear
[6:58] >> lots of women women who you admire,
[7:01] powerful women and regular women and I
[7:04] think the more you hear it the more the
[7:07] shame goes away. I think you know in
[7:09] some ways I think storytelling is the
[7:11] antidote to shame.
[7:12] >> I agree. You know, the minute we circle
[7:14] >> storytelling is the antidote to
[7:16] everything because storytelling allows
[7:17] you to know you're not the only one
[7:19] that's ever gone through anything.
[7:20] >> That's right.
[7:21] >> Period.
[7:21] >> Yep.
[7:23] >> Every story we share on the Oprah
[7:24] podcast comes [music] from a place of
[7:26] intention. Each guest has their own
[7:28] journey and my [music] hope is that
[7:30] sharing it with us here can help light
[7:33] the way for somebody else. And as the
[7:35] official insurance partner of this
[7:37] podcast, Geico understands that every
[7:39] journey feels a little easier when you
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[8:37] Well, Dr. Mary Cla Haver is an OBGYn and
[8:40] certified menopause practitioner. She's
[8:42] a regular contributor to O Daily and a
[8:45] big contributor to this menopause book
[8:47] and the author of the New York Times
[8:49] bestselling books, The New Menopause and
[8:51] the New Parameopause. Dr. Haver, thanks
[8:54] for being here. Great to see you again.
[8:56] What's happening with our hormones
[8:58] during parameopause? because so many
[9:00] women are experiencing that at an early
[9:04] age. It starts like in their 30s now.
[9:08] >> Yeah. So if the average age of menopause
[9:10] is 51 in the United States, but we have
[9:12] a pretty big window of when that might
[9:13] happen. So that's just average. We're
[9:15] looking 46 to 55. Now back that up 7 to
[9:18] 10 years when perry menopause begins.
[9:21] And as far as what hormones are doing, I
[9:23] wish I could tell you it was this slow,
[9:24] beautiful, gentle decline till the end
[9:27] of ovarian function. But actually, it's
[9:29] a roller coaster, something we've named
[9:31] the zone of chaos. So on the way out, as
[9:34] the ovaries deplete their egg supply,
[9:36] the brain is working harder and harder
[9:38] to try to get the hormones out of the
[9:40] ovaries, and that is causing very
[9:43] erratic shifts in our hormone levels. So
[9:45] estrogen levels can get as high, you
[9:48] know, higher than they were in your
[9:49] entire life outside of pregnancy. And we
[9:51] see crashes in progesterone. And so that
[9:55] really manifests early on in our 30s and
[9:57] 40s. We we see the brain symptoms first
[10:00] typically, not the hot flashes. Those
[10:02] come towards the end of pmenopause. We
[10:04] start seeing sleep disruption. We see
[10:06] mental health changes like Polar was
[10:08] talking about, and we see brain fog. So
[10:10] those are usually when I'm really trying
[10:13] to dig in to see is this you know are
[10:15] these symptoms going to be permenopausal
[10:17] in the patient those are the ones I
[10:18] start focusing on early
[10:19] >> and explain why hormone therapy is an
[10:23] effective well first of all you need to
[10:25] explain I keep saying the misrepresented
[10:28] uh you know
[10:29] >> women's health initiative health can you
[10:32] explain that that is what set us on a
[10:34] course of everybody having such great
[10:37] fear about it and I think a lot of women
[10:40] weren't even around or thinking about
[10:42] that women's health initiative at the
[10:44] time that it came out but are living or
[10:48] experiencing the results of it because
[10:50] their doctors, their mothers, their
[10:52] aunts all saying no no no hormones. So
[10:56] let's talk about what happened with the
[10:58] women's health initiative and why.
[11:00] >> Sure. So, we knew from observational
[11:03] data in the 80s and 90s that women on
[11:05] hormone therapy, and that was about 38
[11:07] to 40% of the population um seemed to
[11:10] have lower rates of heart attacks, they
[11:12] seem to live a little bit longer. We
[11:14] knew that their bones would be stronger.
[11:16] But as far as the heart disease
[11:17] question, it was, well, are these women
[11:19] healthier and wealthier and just have a
[11:21] better lifestyle and that's contributing
[11:23] to their decrease because they they can
[11:25] afford hormone therapy, they can afford
[11:26] to go to the doctor, the time, the
[11:27] money, the access or is this really
[11:31] hormone therapy? So that's what the
[11:32] women's health initiative set out to
[11:34] study. If we put women on hormones
[11:36] versus placebo, is this decreased risk
[11:39] of heart attacks due to the medication
[11:41] or just due to lifestyle? So the average
[11:44] age of the woman in the study was 63
[11:47] years old. Much older than a typical
[11:49] woman would be starting menopause
[11:50] therapy. We had two arms. If you had a
[11:52] uterus, you got estrogen plus a
[11:54] progesterrogen. If you didn't have a
[11:56] uterus, you got estrogen only. And they
[11:58] started collecting data. They they
[12:00] collected so many lifestyle factors.
[12:02] They collected heart disease data,
[12:04] breast cancer data. And what they saw
[12:06] was an early signal that in the estrogen
[12:09] and progesterine group only there was a
[12:12] very small signal not great that there
[12:14] was an increased risk of breast cancer.
[12:18] What happened was they called a press
[12:21] conference and announced to the world
[12:24] that hormone therapy causes breast
[12:26] cancer versus placebo.
[12:28] >> We got a 26% increase in breast cancer
[12:31] and that's why we stopped the trial. But
[12:33] that really wasn't the entire story.
[12:35] This was an older population. They
[12:37] didn't have mammograms before starting
[12:38] hormone therapy. We didn't know how many
[12:40] of these women so may have had an early
[12:42] breast cancer before they started
[12:44] hormone therapy. And we didn't see that
[12:46] signal. This didn't make the news in the
[12:48] estrogen only arm. So it terrified
[12:51] women. It went viral before the
[12:52] internet. Right. It was the number one.
[12:54] >> Everybody just dropped their medications
[12:56] the next day. Everybody just literally
[12:58] >> they were calling their doctor in a
[12:59] panic. I remember I was a chief
[13:00] resident. So my last year of my training
[13:02] program, we were giving hormone therapy.
[13:04] It was expected to have that
[13:06] conversation with a patient. And then it
[13:08] was like full stop. She's terrified of
[13:10] breast cancer. We don't want to give her
[13:12] breast cancer. And it took off like
[13:16] wildfire. And everyone was terrified.
[13:18] And all meaningful training in menopause
[13:20] stopped at that point, too.
[13:22] >> Education around menopause. I mean, it
[13:24] was just Yeah. And so it wasn't until I
[13:28] saw Sharon Malone speak in 2023
[13:31] that I realized what the implications of
[13:34] the WHI actually were. I was still
[13:37] operating under the well hormone therapy
[13:39] might give her breast cancer so we
[13:41] really want to look at alternatives.
[13:42] It's a last you know it's the last thing
[13:44] we're going to consider when she's
[13:46] having very disruptive hot flashes. No
[13:48] discussion around bone density
[13:49] preservation. No discussion around
[13:51] mental health or any of the other things
[13:53] we know the full body effects of
[13:54] estrogen loss can do.
[13:56] >> Wow. So it was that late in 2023 with
[14:00] Sharon Malone. You were one of those
[14:01] doctors who was tentative about it.
[14:03] >> Yeah. Very tentative. And I remember
[14:04] sitting in the audience in tears. Like
[14:07] how did I not know this? I am board
[14:09] certified. I get reertified every year.
[14:10] I read all the journals. I do I check
[14:13] all the boxes. And no one had put this
[14:16] information in front of me to say it's
[14:18] actually really really safe for the vast
[14:20] majority of patients. It's going to be a
[14:22] huge benefit versus the risk. Every
[14:24] woman deserves the conversation. And
[14:27] just seeing it dismantled and taken down
[14:29] made me realize how much of a gap I had
[14:33] in my own education and knowledge and
[14:34] how I had really not been of full
[14:36] service to my patients.
[14:39] >> Well, so let's switch gears today. Dr.
[14:41] H. today that the GLP1s
[14:44] and hormone therapy are a gamechanging
[14:50] duo for menopause. Uh belly fat.
[14:54] >> Uhhuh.
[14:54] >> Why?
[14:55] >> So, great point. And we know that women
[14:59] on hormone therapy have less
[15:00] accumulation of visceral fat versus
[15:02] those not on hormone therapy. So,
[15:04] visceral fat for your for your listeners
[15:07] is the very special fat that wraps
[15:08] around our organs. So, I had for years
[15:10] had patients going through the menopause
[15:12] transition saying, "Something's
[15:13] happening in my belly. It's bigger. I've
[15:15] changed nothing in diet and exercise."
[15:16] And they would in their little paper
[15:18] gowns at a well woman kind of grab their
[15:19] tummies and like Mary Cla, what's
[15:21] happening here? And I'd just be like,
[15:23] >> "Work out more, eat less. This is, you
[15:26] know, things get harder as we get older,
[15:28] etc." Never knowing that there was a
[15:30] hormonal component
[15:31] >> attributed here. When we add in the
[15:33] GLP-1, they work synergistically
[15:36] together. So, there was a recent study
[15:37] that came out looking at women on just a
[15:39] GLP-1 versus GLP1 plus menopause hormone
[15:43] therapy, they lost 30% more weight.
[15:45] >> Wow.
[15:46] >> In that study, and when we look at body
[15:48] composition changes, it's the type of
[15:50] weight that we're looking at. So,
[15:51] they're losing visceral fat, that belly
[15:53] fat, which is inflammatory, dangerous,
[15:55] leads to heart disease, diabetes,
[15:57] stroke, versus just subcutaneous fat. So
[16:02] all around the board, I mean, and in my
[16:04] clinical practice, it really is a game
[16:06] changer for my patients combining the
[16:08] two.
[16:08] >> And and what are the benefits of hormone
[16:10] therapy other than it easing hot flashes
[16:14] or allowing you you to sleep at night? I
[16:16] mean, I I didn't sleep for two years and
[16:18] then I had a click of estrogen and the
[16:22] lights went on. I mean, the sky got
[16:24] clearer. I I I no longer felt like I was
[16:28] moving behind a veil. So all of that was
[16:31] was worth it to me. But now I hear that
[16:33] there are actually improvements for you
[16:36] know your heart for inflammation for
[16:39] other things.
[16:41] >> So we know that women So we have four
[16:44] approved FDA approved reasons hot
[16:46] flashes premature menopause preservation
[16:49] of bone density in a postmenopausal
[16:50] patient um and for the general urinary
[16:53] system. But we have estrogen receptors
[16:55] throughout the body. So our patients are
[16:57] telling us in observational data, brain
[16:59] fog is better. If your hot flashes are
[17:00] waking you up, it absolutely will help
[17:03] with sleep. When sleep gets better, as
[17:05] you know, everything gets better.
[17:06] >> Gets better. Yes.
[17:07] >> Yes. And so we also know muscular
[17:11] skeletal symptoms can get better. Of
[17:13] course, the general urinary system,
[17:15] things like vaginal dryness, recurrent
[17:16] UTI. There's a big push on social media
[17:19] to really spread the knowledge about the
[17:21] safety of vaginal estrogen and how you
[17:23] can safely use it with your systemic
[17:25] estrogen as well. and you probably
[17:26] should um to decrease the rate of, you
[17:29] know, vaginal dryness, painful sex, an
[17:32] orgasmia, like patients will come in and
[17:34] saying, "I'm struggling with orgasm.
[17:36] It's taking longer. I can't have them
[17:39] anymore. I want to have them because the
[17:41] tissue is changing down there." So,
[17:42] estrogen can go a long way there as
[17:44] well.
[17:44] >> Wow. Wow. And you say osteoporosis is a
[17:46] silent threat to women after 40. And so,
[17:49] what can we be doing to protect our
[17:51] bones?
[17:52] >> Great question. So the biggest rate of
[17:54] bone loss actually begins in pmenopause
[17:56] and waiting till 65 for when that
[17:58] insurance approved first bone density
[18:01] scan I think is a mistake. You know we
[18:03] start asking to screen our patients in
[18:06] perry menopause. We want to know what
[18:07] the baseline is. And so what can we do?
[18:09] Hormone therapy is FDA approved for
[18:11] prevention. So that's one thing. But I
[18:13] think lifestyle is key here. And a lot
[18:15] of women don't understand especially if
[18:16] they're on a GLP1, right? You must eat
[18:19] adequate protein. So, we need a stimulus
[18:21] for the bone and we need to feed the
[18:22] bone. The bone needs calcium. The bone
[18:24] needs vitamin D. The bone needs protein.
[18:26] Okay? And the stimulus is going to be
[18:29] movement, especially resistance
[18:31] training. The most effective way to
[18:33] protect your bones by moving your body
[18:35] is weight training and jumping. Yeah.
[18:37] Okay. More than jumping, but I will
[18:39] definitely do the weight training. Yes.
[18:41] [laughter]
[18:42] >> That's fantastic. Thank you, Dr. Haver.
[18:44] It's always so great speaking with you.
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[20:03] Presbyterian Hospital. Also the author
[20:05] of the New York Times bestseller, The
[20:07] Menopause Brain, Dr. Lisa Muscone. It's
[20:10] so nice to see you here. So nice to see
[20:12] >> Hello. It's so good to see you. Thank
[20:15] you so much for having me. Hi to her.
[20:17] >> Hi.
[20:17] >> Hi. Hi. So, you've described menopause
[20:20] as a renovation project on the brain.
[20:23] explain how women's brains change during
[20:25] menopause.
[20:26] >> Yes, I think that's a beautiful way to
[20:29] think of menopause and also very
[20:31] graceful in some ways. And
[20:34] >> so most people associate menopause with
[20:37] the function of the ovaries, which is
[20:39] fair enough, but in reality, menopause
[20:42] is a neurologically active phase. It
[20:45] impacts the brain as surely as it does
[20:48] the ovaries. And I think many women
[20:50] intuitively know that we have so many
[20:54] women in midlife coming to the clinic
[20:56] saying something is going on with my
[20:59] brain and then we start talking about
[21:02] symptoms and when women say and what you
[21:05] were saying with Mary Claire, hot
[21:08] flashes, night sweats, insomnia,
[21:11] depression, irritability, anxiety, brain
[21:14] fog, memory lapses, those are all
[21:18] possible ible symptoms of menopause that
[21:21] have nothing to do with the function of
[21:22] the ovaries but they come from the
[21:25] brain. Those are neurological symptoms
[21:28] that come from the ways that menopause
[21:31] can change the brain. So I think that
[21:34] the notion that menopause is a
[21:36] renovation project on the brain is very
[21:39] appropriate. It takes some of the fear
[21:43] out of the word menopause to your point
[21:45] before
[21:47] >> and it's very important to understand
[21:49] also as women that the hormones that we
[21:52] think of as sex hormones like estrogen,
[21:56] progesterone those are actually brain
[21:59] hormones as well. They serve very
[22:03] important functionalities in the brain.
[22:06] So when they come to physically when
[22:09] they decline after menopause, the brain
[22:13] needs to shift gears and adjust to a
[22:16] different hormonal environment. But the
[22:19] important thing to realize is that the
[22:21] brain has the ability to adjust and to
[22:24] just carry on. The ovaries may close
[22:27] down shop, but the brain needs to keep
[22:29] working. And I find that to be really a
[22:32] sign of resilience and plasticity that
[22:35] we don't quite celebrate enough and we
[22:37] don't appreciate enough. And then of
[22:39] course the symptoms are no picnic. So
[22:42] those need to be addressed. But both
[22:44] things are really important to to
[22:46] appreciate.
[22:47] >> What is happening when we're having
[22:49] brain fog? You know, we're talking about
[22:52] how up to half of women report brain
[22:55] fog. So what is actually
[22:57] >> happening in our brain? So brain fog is
[23:01] one of the most common symptoms of
[23:03] menopause and one of those that we
[23:05] really don't talk about but that is
[23:07] potentially even more disruptive to
[23:09] women than hot flashes and night sweats.
[23:12] In clinical terms, we talk about
[23:15] cognitive fatigue or mental fatigue,
[23:18] which I find to be a really good way to
[23:21] capture the experience that so many
[23:24] women have that they're tired. Then it
[23:26] takes them longer to do things. They
[23:28] have trouble multitasking.
[23:30] They have trouble with their memory.
[23:32] They have trouble even coming up with
[23:34] words. Right.
[23:35] >> Right. The the word fumbles can be very
[23:37] disruptive.
[23:39] what is happening
[23:40] >> and concentrating too right
[23:42] concentrating because I remember when I
[23:44] was going through it and doing pray and
[23:46] minopause I did know that that's what I
[23:47] was experiencing but I you know as much
[23:49] as I love to read I I couldn't finish a
[23:52] chapter
[23:53] >> I could I couldn't like finish a chapter
[23:56] >> and that is very upsetting to to so many
[23:59] women we need our brains to function
[24:01] right we we need our brains to feel
[24:04] >> good also for quality of life
[24:08] >> and we have So many women come into the
[24:10] clinic with brain fog. I I run an
[24:13] Alzheimer's prevention program and we
[24:16] had so many women in midlife come to us
[24:19] with this brain fog really worried that
[24:23] number one they could be going crazy.
[24:26] >> That would come up over and over. I
[24:28] think I'm going crazy. I think I'm
[24:29] losing my mind. Or brain tumors. So many
[24:34] women coming to us saying there's
[24:36] something wrong with my brain. I'm so
[24:38] worried that I'm having a brain tumor or
[24:40] even more so early onset dementia.
[24:43] >> So the symptoms this brain fog the women
[24:47] can experience can be so severe and so
[24:50] debilitating to really prompt serious
[24:54] concerns about mental health and brain
[24:56] health. So I would like all women to
[24:59] know that brain fog can happen for many
[25:02] different reasons. Menopause being one
[25:04] of them. It needs to be taken seriously
[25:07] without panicking. If it is menopause
[25:10] and we can do all sorts of tests to
[25:13] understand where it coming where it's
[25:15] coming from and what to do about it. If
[25:17] it is menopause very often it goes away.
[25:21] It's temporary and it should go away
[25:24] when the transition is complete.
[25:26] >> If the symptoms persist or interfere
[25:29] with daily life
[25:30] >> or you're giving home or you're given
[25:32] therapy for it, you're given home
[25:33] therapy for it. It can go away. because
[25:36] my brain fog went away with with with uh
[25:38] estrogen and progesterone.
[25:41] >> That is very important information I
[25:43] think and something that we're looking
[25:45] into more thoroughly right now. It's
[25:48] tricky to measure brain fog and some
[25:52] clinical trials have shown that estrogen
[25:54] therapy is can preserve cognition.
[25:58] Um, we do need to better understand if
[26:03] it can also bring it back like you were
[26:06] saying for you
[26:07] >> it works so beautifully for some women
[26:09] it doesn't. So we really need to
[26:12] understand who responds and why and then
[26:16] generate recommendations for for all
[26:18] women.
[26:19] >> You talk about the three Ps about
[26:21] puberty about pregnancy and
[26:23] parameopause. How are puberty and
[26:26] pregnancy relevant to menopause?
[26:30] >> Yes, and I find this so important to
[26:32] talk about it. So, puberty, pregnancy,
[26:35] and pmenopause are all neuroendocrine
[26:38] transition states, which is a mouthful,
[26:41] but it's really it's it means that the
[26:44] brain and the hormonal systems are
[26:46] changing at the same time. And it's the
[26:49] same system the women are born with the
[26:52] neuroendocrine system that directly
[26:54] connects the brain with the ovaries. And
[26:57] this is one of the most important
[26:59] systems that we have in our entire
[27:01] bodies. And this system is turned on at
[27:04] puberty with the arrival of sex hormones
[27:08] and then it's really boosted during
[27:11] pregnancy should the woman get pregnant.
[27:13] It crashes after um pregnancy during the
[27:18] postpartum phase and the brain needs to
[27:20] adjust another time and then it is
[27:23] partially turned down after the
[27:25] transition to menopause because at that
[27:27] point of reproductive life is over. And
[27:31] the brain needs to adjust to every one
[27:34] of these phases. And I will add that
[27:37] even just having a menstrual cycle is a
[27:39] little bit of a stress test on the brain
[27:42] because every time the ovaries cycle,
[27:45] the brain microcycle,
[27:48] they're very small and subtle changes,
[27:50] but they're real
[27:52] >> and some women really feel the effects.
[27:54] Other women are less impacted, but they
[27:57] are very real symptoms. And at each one
[28:01] of these transition states, we have
[28:04] actually similar symptoms. I think we
[28:07] all know that teenagers can be spacey,
[28:09] can be moody, could be sweaty, right?
[28:12] Pregnant women likewise, there's
[28:14] potentially mommy brain or baby brain,
[28:17] which is the same thing more or less as
[28:19] brain fog. Um, there can be depression,
[28:22] there can be mood changes, but also
[28:26] changes in body temperature. Almost 30%
[28:29] of pregnant women had hot flashes, but
[28:32] we never worry about it. Right.
[28:34] >> Right.
[28:34] >> And then we go through menopause and we
[28:37] experience some similar symptoms from
[28:40] the brain's perspective, but they could
[28:42] be more frequent, more severe, more
[28:45] disruptive, and they may last longer. So
[28:49] the difference here is cultural because
[28:52] puberty is celebrated. We're so happy
[28:54] about
[28:56] >> pregnancy even more so. We throw
[28:58] parties, we have balloons,
[28:59] >> right?
[29:00] >> And then menopause arrives and nobody
[29:02] wants to talk about it and you're
[29:03] basically left alone. But it's the same
[29:06] system that is changing over time. So I
[29:11] think it's important to appreciate that
[29:13] menopause is not an alien event that is
[29:16] hijacking your brain or or
[29:19] >> yeah women we should have celebrations
[29:21] when women go into menopause. Halib and
[29:23] I were talking about this on a special.
[29:26] I think there should be a big party when
[29:29] you transition into menopause. Really?
[29:31] >> Yes. I told my husband. Yes.
[29:33] >> I was telling my husband when I go
[29:35] through menopause, we're having a party.
[29:38] >> Well, one of the things too that has
[29:40] been so informative and that we talk
[29:43] about in the menopause book um written
[29:45] by the O Daily editors that nearly
[29:48] twothirds of all people living with uh
[29:51] Alzheimer's are women. Uh, I think
[29:54] that's a wakeup call. What have you
[29:56] discovered about women and Alzheimer's?
[29:58] You were saying you're working on
[30:00] Alzheimer prevention and I keep reading
[30:03] that hormone therapy can actually lower
[30:07] Alzheimer risk. Is that true?
[30:10] >> It's a very big question. Is actually
[30:12] one of the most controversial and
[30:15] important questions that we're asking
[30:16] right now in the field. Um, my my answer
[30:20] personally is that we need more
[30:22] research. We need more data. What we
[30:24] know right now is like Mary Claire was
[30:27] saying, um, we have observational
[30:30] research suggesting that women on
[30:33] hormone therapy may experience a lower
[30:35] risk of Alzheimer's as compared to women
[30:37] who do not take estrogen therapy,
[30:40] especially those uh who experience
[30:42] menopause because of of anctomy because
[30:45] of a surgery. Um, those are
[30:48] observational studies. They're very
[30:50] important. They're a really good first
[30:52] step, but they do not provide definitive
[30:56] evidence. Definitive evidence comes from
[30:59] also other sources of other types of
[31:03] studies like clinical trials. The
[31:05] question we should ask and the question
[31:07] we are asking now is what if women in
[31:11] midlife
[31:13] started taking micronized estradiol
[31:16] micronized progesterone the patch other
[31:19] types of hormone therapy that are
[31:21] perhaps more prevalent and more commonly
[31:23] used now could that lower our risk of
[31:27] Alzheimer's and the research is ongoing
[31:30] I'm actually really happy to let you all
[31:33] know that we have launched launched a
[31:36] $50 million research program that looks
[31:39] exactly into this question. Oh, that's
[31:41] good.
[31:41] >> It's called CARE.
[31:42] >> Yes. I'm told
[31:45] >> is the largest global research program
[31:48] on women's health, menopause, and
[31:50] Alzheimer disease ever attempted.
[31:53] >> I designed it. I have the honor of
[31:55] directing it. We're moving really fast.
[31:57] We have three years to give you this
[31:59] answer and the year and a half is
[32:01] already gone.
[32:02] >> Mhm. So very soon I hope we will have
[32:06] the answer that the women need. They
[32:08] need to have like the rigorous
[32:10] evidence-based
[32:12] answer that also clinicians are
[32:14] comfortable with.
[32:15] >> I hear that female neuroscientists are
[32:17] also studying something called the
[32:19] cognitive load. Explain what that is.
[32:22] Cognitive load is a very interesting
[32:25] variable that is not typically assessed
[32:28] in cognitive science or neuroscience
[32:30] which asks the question
[32:34] of how much are we asking this woman's
[32:37] brain to do
[32:39] >> right women in midlife are often a
[32:43] little bit squeezed between multiple
[32:45] responsibilities there may be young
[32:47] children aging parents your career There
[32:51] are so many things that are happening in
[32:53] midlife and all of them require an
[32:56] enormous amount of cognitive reserve and
[32:59] resources which are not unlimited and
[33:03] there's so much pressure and this mental
[33:06] overload for so many women that is not
[33:10] being taken into account and I think
[33:12] it's really important to study women
[33:15] brain health in relationship to the
[33:17] environment that the women are actually
[33:20] living in.
[33:21] Well, Par uh knows this very well that
[33:25] Oprah Daily has covered the invisible
[33:28] mental load. We talk about this all the
[33:30] time. Yeah.
[33:31] >> The invisible mental load that women
[33:33] carry and and and I know you hear a lot
[33:36] about this from our subscribers. What
[33:38] are they saying?
[33:38] >> And I think as it relates to
[33:40] permenopause and menopause, I think
[33:42] sometimes
[33:43] it's hard to distinguish what is just
[33:46] the complexity of modern life. to your
[33:49] point about being sandwich generation,
[33:51] raising children, maintaining careers,
[33:53] maybe taking care of elders, it's a
[33:56] major major load and it's hard to know
[33:58] what's what when people think, am I
[34:00] losing my mind or do I just have too
[34:01] much on my plate? It's a really simple
[34:03] question and I think
[34:05] >> both can be true.
[34:05] >> Yeah, exactly right.
[34:06] >> Actually, both can be true.
[34:08] >> Um, and while we don't want to assign
[34:10] anything and everything to parmenopause
[34:12] or menopause, we need to we need to pay
[34:14] attention to these things. And I think
[34:16] you know science will help us even
[34:18] there's so many you know AI AI for good
[34:22] in in in this case you know looking at
[34:24] huge data sets and seeing
[34:26] >> sometimes atypical symptoms that you
[34:28] know start to form a pattern and you
[34:30] know can lead us to the conclusion that
[34:33] this symptom and that symptom that we
[34:34] never ascribed to permenopause or
[34:37] menopause are actually symptoms of that.
[34:39] And so
[34:39] >> what are our readers saying what are
[34:40] they saying?
[34:41] >> I I think women are totally maxed. I
[34:45] mean, I think that's the the short
[34:46] answer. I think um and I think I think
[34:50] partners are coming along. I think
[34:52] they're they're, you know, stepping in
[34:54] and and sort of picking up some of the
[34:55] slack. But I think women just naturally,
[34:58] biologically, intrinsically, and also,
[35:02] you know, through societal pressures
[35:04] take everything on. And and I think they
[35:07] are, you know, now once again the power
[35:10] of sharing their stories with other
[35:12] women, at least now they're comparing
[35:14] notes and and trying to figure out
[35:16] what's what, what's medical, what's just
[35:18] too much. Uh and I think, you know, we
[35:21] are these are the forever questions that
[35:23] we're asking.
[35:23] >> Dr. Msone, you've said one of the more
[35:25] surprising things you've learned is that
[35:28] post-menopausal women are generally
[35:30] happier than younger women and generally
[35:34] happier than they themselves were before
[35:37] menopause. And I'd have to agree with
[35:39] that. Why is that?
[35:41] >> Why is a very very interesting question.
[35:44] I found that to be except really
[35:47] surprising in terms of the research
[35:49] which is still limited. Um, but what
[35:52] those studies show is that when women
[35:55] are asked about
[35:57] life contentment and emotional
[36:00] well-being, they do tend to report
[36:04] higher levels of both after menopause
[36:07] than before. And we do know that
[36:09] happiness tends to take a dip in midlife
[36:12] and then go back up later on in life.
[36:16] There are some explanations, potential
[36:19] explanations for this. When it comes to
[36:21] menopause, one of the best studies that
[36:23] I've seen looks at the functionality of
[36:26] the brain. And there are some parts of
[36:28] the brain that are very tightly involved
[36:31] in emotional regulation. One of those is
[36:33] called the amygdala. And what scientists
[36:36] have found is that the function of the
[36:39] amydala is
[36:41] specifically changed after menopause in
[36:45] that things that would drive you nuts
[36:48] before menopause don't quite have the
[36:51] same effect on brain activation. You
[36:55] don't react as much as you used to.
[36:58] >> Is it also because you just know more?
[37:00] You just know more.
[37:02] >> Yeah.
[37:03] >> More. [laughter] It's true. What do you
[37:04] think?
[37:05] >> I think it's I think it's both. I think
[37:07] this thing that we call wisdom probably
[37:10] does have some sort of neurological
[37:12] signature. I think when fear and
[37:15] reactivity goes offline, you prioritize
[37:19] things that are more important. I think
[37:20] there is something to there's some truth
[37:22] to this. You just give fewer fs.
[37:24] >> Yes.
[37:25] >> Later in life. I mean, you just do.
[37:27] Yeah.
[37:27] >> And and I think it's what you're saying,
[37:29] Dr. Muscone that you know the amygdala
[37:32] kind of takes a backseat and I think our
[37:36] abstract thinking our wisdom what we
[37:39] call wisdom is sort of this you know um
[37:43] when when it when we don't have
[37:44] interference from fear anxiety you know
[37:47] annoyance uh we can sort of come to full
[37:51] fruition in our midlife
[37:52] >> you actually become more of yourself
[37:54] totally more who you supposed to be.
[37:56] What do you wish every woman would be
[37:58] asking her doctor
[37:59] >> about prevention? It is so important for
[38:02] all women to be able to discuss uh
[38:05] prevention when it comes to brain health
[38:07] with their doctors starting at a at a
[38:10] much younger age. You know, a woman can
[38:13] do everything right. She can get her pep
[38:15] tests. She can do her mamograms. She can
[38:18] do perhaps a colonoscopy, measure her
[38:20] cholesterol, insulin. But we're never
[38:23] asked [clears throat] about mental
[38:24] health. were never asked about brain
[38:26] health unless you just had a baby,
[38:29] right? And then you would go to the
[38:31] pediatrician and they would do a little
[38:33] screening test to make sure you don't
[38:34] have postpartum depression or something
[38:36] worse. But there's really no framework
[38:39] to support women's brain health
[38:41] throughout life. So I really wish that
[38:43] all women would go to their doctors and
[38:45] say okay what can I do now
[38:48] >> to support my brain
[38:51] >> today tomorrow and for the rest of my
[38:54] life? How do I prepare for things that
[38:57] will happen to me like menopause or or
[38:59] other how do I really prepare for the
[39:03] rest of my life? And I really wish the
[39:05] doctors had the answers. So, I hope that
[39:07] the research we're doing will contribute
[39:09] and I hope that all women appreciate
[39:12] that there are so many things that we
[39:14] can do to support their brain health at
[39:16] any age and any time of your life and to
[39:20] really think more of your brain like a
[39:21] muscle if you will. There are things
[39:24] that we can do to strengthen our brains
[39:25] and support our brain health. We can
[39:28] exercise our brains properly. We can
[39:30] feed our brain properly. We can take
[39:33] care of our brain properly. and their
[39:35] brains will do so much more for us in
[39:38] return.
[39:39] >> And what we're learning now is that
[39:40] exercise to the brain is its own
[39:42] medicine.
[39:44] >> Yes.
[39:44] >> Yeah.
[39:45] >> Yeah.
[39:45] >> Yeah. It's not just about staying fit.
[39:48] It's not just even about resistance. It
[39:50] is medicine for the brain.
[39:51] >> Also medicine for the brain.
[39:53] >> Yes. So when we exercise, actually a
[39:56] specific protein is being released. It's
[39:58] called iodine that goes inside the brain
[40:01] and really supports the health of your
[40:03] neurons. So there's a direct chemical
[40:06] protection that goes from the rest of of
[40:09] your body inside your brain every time
[40:11] you exercise which is one more reason to
[40:14] remain physically active.
[40:16] >> Dr. Msone, you've been wonderful. Thank
[40:18] you so much. Thank you for your
[40:19] contribution here and in our menopause
[40:22] book. Thank you so much.
[40:23] >> Thank you so much. Okay, pillar, there's
[40:26] a chapter on what menopause does to your
[40:29] relationships and another about what men
[40:32] are sharing themselves about menopause
[40:35] in the menopause book.
[40:36] >> So, what have you and the other editors
[40:38] come to know about the people who are
[40:40] supporting their spouses?
[40:42] >> Well, first of all, uh the most
[40:44] supportive spouses are the ones who are
[40:47] actually reading up and and hopefully
[40:50] >> buying this book and and other books
[40:52] like it. Uh I think you know information
[40:55] is is power and understanding. I think
[40:58] sort of baseline compassion rather than
[41:00] this business of just hormones. I think
[41:03] there's a lot of language that needs to
[41:05] be um rethought. I think when we dismiss
[41:08] women's, you know, changes in women's
[41:11] health as just hormones, we're kind of
[41:13] dismissing the whole woman herself
[41:15] because in some ways,
[41:16] >> you know, hormonal health is women's
[41:18] health. This is something that I've
[41:20] learned. You know, Dr. Pointer,
[41:22] Elizabeth Pointer, who we we talk about
[41:24] in the book, you know, sort of put it
[41:25] very plainly that this notion of, you
[41:29] know, a woman's entire life really is a
[41:33] kind of series of, you know, um,
[41:35] inflection points like like the ones
[41:37] that we tal we we just heard about from
[41:39] Dr. from Moscone that we need to
[41:41] normalize that conversation that it's
[41:43] not actually the exception like hormonal
[41:47] flux is the rule and I think we need to
[41:49] kind of
[41:50] >> turn it upside down. And I think we kind
[41:52] of think, oh, it's going to calm down.
[41:53] And it does. There are certain
[41:55] inflection points and things level out
[41:57] and, you know, normalize. But, you know,
[42:00] some of those inflection points can have
[42:02] can be very disruptive to marriages. Um
[42:05] it can you know I don't like this
[42:07] conversation that you know there's a
[42:09] divorce rates go up during midlife and
[42:11] and and this is all true and sometimes
[42:14] um you know sometimes women are sort of
[42:17] out of their heads and they are not who
[42:19] they want to be in certain moments but
[42:21] sometimes this the loss of estrogen
[42:23] which is sort of the the pleaser hormone
[42:25] for lack of a better word uh when that
[42:28] you know subsides it reveals you know
[42:31] issues in the marriage that need to be
[42:33] addressed and so you Both things can be
[42:35] true. Um I think there can be a lot of
[42:39] understanding and you know going along
[42:41] for the ride on the part of of the
[42:43] partner but also I think women need to
[42:46] look at the things that bother them you
[42:48] know when when that sort of you know
[42:51] pleaser hormone starts to to sort of
[42:53] subside.
[42:54] >> I hear a lot of our Old Daily community
[42:56] members are getting support from each
[42:58] other. Freda is joining us. Freda, hi
[43:01] there. Hi.
[43:02] >> Hi.
[43:03] Tell us about the support you found uh
[43:06] in the O Daily community.
[43:08] >> Oh my goodness. First of all, thank hi
[43:10] Oprah and hi Polar. Thank you so much
[43:12] for bringing me into this such important
[43:15] conversation around menopause. I always
[43:17] heard my mom and her friends saying the
[43:19] change the change and I never knew what
[43:21] this change was and when I started going
[43:24] through parameopause I couldn't go to my
[43:26] mom. So, I had to arm myself with some
[43:29] trusted source and I came across Oprah
[43:31] daily and I was able to take that
[43:34] information to my doctor, get on hormone
[43:37] therapy and I am running around here
[43:40] like a teenager now. I am so excited.
[43:43] >> Tell us what happened. Tell us what
[43:44] happened when I I I often say I did my
[43:47] first click I because I still do the
[43:49] creams. I did my first click and I was
[43:51] like woohoo
[43:53] slept I sky got clearer bluer veil
[43:57] dropped all of it. So what happened with
[43:58] you Freda?
[44:00] >> With me what was happening is my mood
[44:02] like I I'm know what I'm saying is
[44:03] insane and my husband thinks I'm insane.
[44:05] I think the kids were thinking I was
[44:06] insane and I knew I was going through a
[44:08] lot of different changes. Vaginal
[44:09] dryness, brain fog and I said okay I
[44:13] can't do this anymore. And I took that
[44:15] information that I found on Oprah daily
[44:17] to my doctor. I was confident enough to
[44:19] speak with my doctor about hormone um
[44:22] replacement therapy and I just man I
[44:24] just ran with it and I just I'm just
[44:28] excited like I'm joyful. Well, I feel
[44:29] like I'm in my 20s again, believe it or
[44:31] not, and I'm in my third year of law
[44:34] school. And so, I need, you know, I have
[44:35] to focus. And that brain fog is just
[44:38] gone. And Oprah Daily has been a big
[44:40] part of that. And I thank you. And
[44:42] please keep bringing that information to
[44:44] Oprah daily because it, if it helped me,
[44:46] I'm sure it's going to help other women.
[44:48] >> Well, we thank you. We thank you so
[44:50] much. And I know your husband thanks us,
[44:52] your children thanks us, [laughter]
[44:54] everybody thanks us. Thank you. So, Par,
[44:58] what is the biggest surprise you and the
[45:01] editors discovered while putting all of
[45:03] this information together?
[45:04] >> You know, I think I continue to be
[45:06] surprised by the same thing. Uh, that
[45:09] women still go to their doctor's offices
[45:12] and are discouraged from getting the
[45:16] care that they need. I know we've made
[45:17] huge strides and and now there's, you
[45:19] know, greater access to to doctors who
[45:22] are supporting midlife women's health.
[45:24] But I continue to be amazed that women
[45:27] are still fearful
[45:29] >> um about hormone therapy and and that
[45:32] doctors are still reluctant to
[45:34] prescribe. I think that continues to to
[45:38] you know
[45:39] >> even here yeah even hearing here today
[45:42] that until 2023
[45:45] >> doctors yeah we're still tentative about
[45:47] it.
[45:48] >> We're still tentative and I think it
[45:49] just you know
[45:50] >> and if you get the wrong doctor you're
[45:51] not getting it
[45:52] >> right. And so I think you know it's
[45:54] changing. It's definitely changing and
[45:55] that makes me very happy.
[45:57] >> And so you and the editors wanted to do
[46:00] this book because
[46:02] >> well there are a million great books now
[46:04] that have been published that we have
[46:06] actually you know from some of our some
[46:07] of the guests that were on today. We um
[46:10] don't pretend to be doctors. We are
[46:12] journalists and we have really kind of
[46:15] cherrypicked and collected and distilled
[46:17] what goes on in your brain, your body,
[46:20] your mind, your spirit, your
[46:21] relationships with your spouse, with
[46:23] yourself, with your children. Um, and
[46:25] really it's it's a primer that you can
[46:27] dip in and out of. It is um extremely
[46:30] accessible. Anyone can read this and it
[46:33] should be passed along, I think, to
[46:34] spouses and children as well so that
[46:36] they
[46:37] >> The reason why I like it is because it's
[46:38] so readable. I mean, it's it's it's like
[46:41] you and you can just open to any page
[46:43] and find out the information that you
[46:45] want. It's so readable.
[46:47] >> It's it's packaged in a way that you can
[46:49] dip in and out of. So, it doesn't it
[46:51] doesn't feel like a textbook.
[46:53] >> Yeah. And if you know somebody who is
[46:55] going through it, is going to go through
[46:57] it, you're going through it, this is the
[46:59] perfect It's a manual. I think it's like
[47:01] a manual.
[47:02] >> Absolutely.
[47:02] >> It's a manual for getting through it.
[47:03] Thank you, Par.
[47:04] >> Thank you for having me.
[47:05] >> Thank you. A big thank you to all of my
[47:07] guests for joining us. Dr. Mary Cla
[47:10] Haver, Lisa Mosconei, Dr. Msone, and and
[47:13] to you Freda for being such an avid O
[47:16] Daily uh subscriber and reader and
[47:19] viewer. The Book of Menopause, real
[47:21] talk, real science, real strategies for
[47:24] your next chapter. And if you're a
[47:26] woman, it's coming. It's available
[47:28] anywhere you buy your books. And see you
[47:30] next time. Go well, everybody. If you
[47:33] want to learn more about what's going on
[47:35] [music] in your body and brain during
[47:37] menopause, consider this book your
[47:39] guide, your here's what's real, [music]
[47:41] here's what's changing, here's what you
[47:43] can do next companion. Just scan the QR
[47:46] code right there on [music] your screen
[47:47] to get your copy of this book of
[47:49] menopause. This is actually a great time
[47:51] to take good care of yourself. I promise
[47:53] it's really, really helpful for getting
[47:55] to the other side. our listeners [music]
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