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Inspiration

Why Repressed Anger Comes Up While Healing Trauma

IL
Irene Lyon
Oct 18, 2026
8 min read

From Irene Lyon

Watch · 6

Picture a plastic baseball bat, a pile of pillows, and someone swinging until the breath runs out. That is the popular image of anger work, and in this 55-minute conversation Irene Lyon and her longtime student and friend Donnie Hill take it apart. The subject is what surfaces once a person has built enough nervous system capacity to finally feel what they have been holding. Repressed survival energy, including anger, resentment, frustration and grief, can rise during healing not because the work has gone wrong but because there is finally room for it. Lyon and Hill cover why this happens, why moving the body is not the same as processing stored experience, where healthy aggression ends and rage or annihilation energy begins, and how to direct this energy so it does not spill onto the people around you.

Read · 6 sections

Why isn't hitting a bag enough to release anger?

Lyon opens the video by naming the cliché outright: the bat, the mannequin, the scream. She does not dismiss it. "That all might be true," she says, but she adds that in Smart Body Smart Mind, the curriculum she has run since 2015, students learn that the physical gesture is only part of the picture. The punch, the kick, the scratch or the scream are what she calls stored procedural memories, patterns the body learned long before there were words for them. Moving them out matters. But the motion alone is not enough.

The missing piece is connection. An action that is not tied to the lived experience that created it can feel hollow, or can leave the system more activated than before. A person who was harmed and then dismissed may have learned, in the body, that their response is wrong or dangerous. Simply handing them a bat does not undo that lesson. The body needs to recognize what the movement is for.

Lyon gives a concrete case from her own practice, anonymized and drawn from a training demonstration. A person had a serious accident in which they were not at fault. Over time the aftermath became a cascade of illness, disrupted sleep and intrusive thoughts, the kind of picture Lyon says would be recognized as complex PTSD. Then came a medical situation that felt, in her words, "dehumanizing." The person was far from their country of origin and could not easily speak the language. Lyon could see the anger. But she was clear that you cannot ask someone in that moment to growl or punch the air, because the gesture has no connection to what happened to them. The energy needs a route that the person's own story can open.

Why does anger come back online once you start healing?

Hill opens the conversation with the observation that prompted it. Over the past couple of months, he says, "the anger is coming back online." He describes working with Lyon since around 2020 and 2021, moving through Smart Body Smart Mind, the Science Intuitive Educator course and a beta certification, and then discovering that the deeper he went into nervous system work, the more emotion began to arrive. "Now all of this anger and resentment and frustration and grief are just starting to bubble up to the surface," he says.

Lyon's explanation rests on an image she returns to throughout the conversation: the swimming pool full of beach balls. Each ball is a stressor, an event or a held experience pushed under the water. A small pool can only hold so many before it overflows. Healing does two things at once. It grows the capacity of the pool, and it lets the actual balls rise and be dealt with. The catch is that growth in capacity brings the balls up sooner than you might expect, because the pool can now hold them without drowning.

Hill ties this directly to his own life. For several years he has been caregiving for his mother, his father and his sister, and he describes the experience as bringing childhood material to the surface. Some of it, he says, concerns whether his mother will be there and how to mend or clean up that relationship. Some concerns his family in general, and some is simply older. He credits the last six or seven years of capacity-building with making room for all of it. "I have a bigger swimming pool," is the idea he returns to.

Why don't we talk about this stage of healing more openly?

One of the most useful points in the conversation is about normalization. Hill describes a stretch of about three weeks when he felt "bitter and resentful and pissy," and he was at home caregiving while it happened. He wanted not to feel that way, and he felt it anyway. Lyon responds that this experience is rarely named in healing culture. People are rarely told that doing this work may bring up anger, resentment, bitterness, grief or disappointment, and that these emotions tend to arrive precisely because earlier there was no space or permission to feel them.

Lyon then describes the cultural and personal scripts that make anger hard to let in at all. She names a stance she calls "playing no victim" versus "playing too much victim." Many people swing between them. On one side is the belief that they have to accept what happened and move on, and that anger means they are a bad or mean person. On the other is a sense that feeling anger toward a parent, a classmate, a bully or their circumstances is simply not allowed. Hill names this exactly: he had the sense that he could not be angry at his parents, at his circumstances, or at the people who had hurt him. Then, he says, he realized he was, in fact, angry.

"Now I'm like, wait a minute, no, I'm just really pissed." (Donnie Hill, describing his own realization during the conversation)

The point is not to celebrate anger for its own sake. It is to recognize that anger is survival energy, often laid down very early, and that it was never a character flaw. Lyon is careful about this. Anger, she says, is "not just about getting mad." It can be a deeply protective response that begins in infancy, long before a child has any language for what is happening.

What separates healthy aggression from rage and annihilation?

Lyon draws distinctions the popular conversation often blurs. Healthy aggression is energy that can be used with a clear target and a clear boundary. Rage is a more overwhelming, less contained state. The video devotes a major section to what Lyon calls annihilation energy, a more extreme form in which the impulse is not simply to push back but to erase or destroy. She places this alongside a discussion of sadism and of the moment when a person can harm others. Her point is that these states are different things, and that treating them as one undifferentiated "anger" is part of why people either suppress everything or act out in ways they later regret.

Hill's own metaphor captures the practical stakes. He describes wanting the energy to be productive rather than feeling "like Godzilla all the time," destroying buildings and relationships as he moves through his day. Lyon agrees that the goal is to unravel the pattern and direct the energy. That means distinguishing what is being felt, what it is connected to, and how much of it the present situation can actually hold.

How do you direct anger without letting it run the day?

The video's later sections move from naming the emotion to working with the body that holds it. The chapter markers point to discussion of bracing patterns, cultural differences in how anger is expressed, and what Lyon calls life force, the vitality that becomes available when stored tension begins to release. Lyon also points to the diaphragm and to the way tightness in the body can keep a person locked in the same defensive posture long after the original threat has passed. In her framing, bracing is itself a stored pattern, and loosening it is part of how the held energy gets to move.

Several threads from the conversation suggest a practical approach. Give the emotion a place to be felt rather than a demand that it be discharged on cue. Connect any physical expression to the experience it belongs to, not to a generic script. Expect that the work may need more than one conversation, because the material returns in layers as capacity grows. And recognize that surfacing anger is often evidence of progress, a sign that the pool is finally large enough to hold what was pushed beneath it.

Where to go from here

If this conversation names something you have been living with, the video itself is the fullest source, and Lyon and Hill speak with more nuance and humor than any summary can capture. Lyon's playlist, "The Importance of Anger and Healthy Aggression," gathers related material on the same themes. Her newsletter at irenelyon.com offers weekly educational pieces and updates. For a structured starting point, her Smart Body Smart Mind Foundations course, available at smartbodysmartmind.com, is the first step in her online curriculum, and she notes that a monthly membership is open to people who have completed Foundations or the 21 Day Tune-Up. Hill's own coaching work can be explored through his Linktree, and the 2024 interview between the two, on spasmodic dysphonia and human expression, is a useful companion for anyone interested in how the body carries what the voice cannot say.

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Transcript

[0:00] you are given a baseball bat that's

[0:02] plastic and I don't know pillows or or

[0:05] mannequins or something and you just

[0:07] beat the [ __ ] out of these things

[0:09] because that's what we think anger work

[0:11] is or screaming that all might be true

[0:14] but one of the things that you learn in

[0:17] smart body smart mind is that just the

[0:19] motion of moving the hit or the punch or

[0:23] the kick or the scratch or the scream

[0:25] those are all very important we would

[0:27] call stored procedural memories to move

[0:30] out, but just the motion of doing them

[0:33] isn't enough.

[0:36] Hey folks, Irene here. So, as you can

[0:38] see, there is a conversation for you

[0:40] today. This is with my good friend

[0:42] Donnie Hill. He is also a smart body,

[0:45] smart mind member, but this one is a

[0:47] little different because this is a

[0:48] conversation we have for his channel and

[0:50] his people in his coaching and

[0:53] self-development world. We get into the

[0:55] topic of anger, healthy aggression,

[0:58] rage, annihilation, the difference

[1:00] between these things and violence. We

[1:03] talk about culture and also a bit of his

[1:05] journey. One of the things that starts

[1:07] to happen when we build capacity and we

[1:09] work at the nervous system level is

[1:11] these little things start to trickle up

[1:13] and out. And they're not always due to

[1:15] overt abuse.

[1:17] It's just our world and how we live and

[1:20] how we suppress things. So, we get into

[1:23] all those topics and a bit more. And as

[1:26] a reminder, I have a lot of other

[1:28] resources on these topics. I'll post

[1:30] some of my favorite ones below this

[1:32] video in the show more section. And as

[1:34] always, if you want to start learning

[1:36] with me, as Donnie did many years ago,

[1:39] smart body, smart mind is the way to

[1:41] begin. All those links are near here.

[1:43] You can start at any time now. We've

[1:46] changed the way I do my online programs.

[1:49] So you can begin today with foundations.

[1:52] So check that out and enjoy my

[1:55] conversation with Donnie. And definitely

[1:57] give this video a like and a comment if

[1:58] you have questions. We try to get to as

[2:01] many as we can. We would love that.

[2:03] Thanks everyone.

[2:04] >> One of the things we've been talking

[2:05] about

[2:06] >> uh over the past couple of months is

[2:10] that the anger is coming back online.

[2:12] you know, we met in 2013, but you've

[2:16] been really mentoring me since 2020,

[2:18] 2021. I went through Smart Body, Smart

[2:21] Mind. I went through the science

[2:24] intuitive educator

[2:26] course and that beta

[2:28] >> certification

[2:29] >> and I've I've been interested in the

[2:32] practitioner training. Obviously, that

[2:34] comes when it comes. But what I've

[2:38] noticed as I've just continued to

[2:42] learn more about the nervous system and

[2:43] integrate my own work within the nervous

[2:46] system is that now all of this anger and

[2:49] resentment and frustration and grief are

[2:52] just starting to bubble up to the

[2:54] surface.

[2:55] >> Yeah. So,

[2:58] I guess a couple of weeks ago I asked

[2:59] you, so is this a normal thing?

[3:03] [laughter]

[3:05] What what does all of this mean when our

[3:08] fight actually becomes or comes back

[3:11] online? And that's really what this

[3:13] conversation is going to be about today.

[3:15] [clears throat]

[3:16] >> I think that was a couple months ago.

[3:18] >> It could have been. [laughter] I feel

[3:20] like so much has happened between our

[3:21] exchanges.

[3:24] >> Yeah. I mean, um, where do we start? The

[3:27] the the

[3:29] anger piece isn't isn't all what some

[3:33] folks think it is. It's not just about

[3:35] getting mad.

[3:37] I mean, it it can be that, but it's

[3:39] [snorts] also a very deep protective

[3:43] response

[3:45] from when we were really young,

[3:48] even infants.

[3:50] and how to unpack that. You know, we can

[3:52] go down some some lanes and rabbit

[3:55] holes, but

[3:57] I'll say this. It it I just was talking

[3:59] about this today actually in a in a

[4:01] training in a demo session. And

[4:06] without giving away the context or any

[4:08] personal details, it was an archetypal

[4:11] archetypical theme where someone had a

[4:14] really significant trauma

[4:17] and then after lots of sickness, we

[4:21] would call it complex PTSD.

[4:24] >> You've heard the analogy from my

[4:25] teachings, balls in the swimming pool.

[4:28] >> Yep. too much stuff crammed into our our

[4:31] system and the capacity is small and we

[4:33] need to grow the capacity but we also

[4:35] have to take the actual balls the actual

[4:38] stressors the events out. And so this

[4:42] individual had had a really significant

[4:44] event

[4:46] a year later struggling with health and

[4:48] sleep and and thoughts and

[4:52] you know just so many it's like

[4:54] textbook.

[4:56] Uh and what was very clear was how they

[5:00] were not able or didn't understand the

[5:03] importance of anger

[5:05] to the accident that had occurred

[5:07] because it was an accident where they

[5:08] were not at fault. Um,

[5:11] >> and then things happened afterwards in

[5:13] the medical situation where it was

[5:15] really like I don't want to say

[5:16] negligent, but you it was sort of

[5:18] dehumanizing.

[5:20] um

[5:23] >> hey pup they weren't in you know their

[5:26] country of origin so they couldn't speak

[5:28] the language and and there was I could

[5:30] see there was a lot of anger but you

[5:33] can't say to that person in that moment

[5:35] I need you to growl or I need you to

[5:37] punch the air or scream or get a

[5:41] baseball bat because it was so not

[5:44] connected to their lived experience that

[5:46] it would be okay

[5:49] to move that energy out and then you

[5:52] start to see the culture the

[5:55] conditioning

[5:58] what's right I don't want to be a mean

[6:00] person you know I don't want to you know

[6:02] I have to live and accept what happened

[6:04] to me I'm not I don't so there's this

[6:06] element of playing no victim versus

[6:10] playing too much victim if that makes

[6:12] sense

[6:13] >> what you were just mentioning ended up

[6:17] helping me connect some of the pieces

[6:19] Okay.

[6:20] >> So, for um some people listening, they

[6:23] know that I've been going through

[6:25] another sensory caregiving journey with

[6:27] my mom and my dad and my sister.

[6:30] Um and so they're my mom and my dad and

[6:34] my sister, they're all having their

[6:35] experience and I'm also having my

[6:37] experience. And what I'm finding in this

[6:42] uh this goound of caregiving is that

[6:46] more more of my childhood stuff is

[6:49] coming up, right? I think part of it is

[6:52] looking at, hey, is my mom going to be

[6:54] here? Is she not going to be here?

[6:57] How do I how do I mend or clean up that

[7:00] relationship?

[7:01] And then some of it is just uh I have a

[7:05] bigger swimming pool, right? because I

[7:07] built capacity over the past six or

[7:09] seven years. So now more of those

[7:12] >> beach balls or swimming pool balls are

[7:15] coming up to the surface and some of

[7:17] them are connected to my relationship

[7:19] with her, some of them are connected to

[7:22] my relationship with my family in

[7:23] general, some of them are just connected

[7:25] to childhood things.

[7:28] And

[7:31] what I resonated with in what you were

[7:34] talking about was

[7:37] having that mentality of no victim and

[7:41] then also victim um holding having the

[7:45] the mentality of like I can't be angry.

[7:48] Um anger is not okay. uh especially

[7:51] can't be angry at my parents or angry at

[7:54] you know my circumstance or angry at my

[7:57] classmates or bullies or whatever.

[8:00] >> And now I'm like wait a minute no I'm

[8:03] just really [ __ ] pissed

[8:06] >> and there was a [clears throat] period

[8:07] of time where it was like I just felt

[8:10] bitter and resentful and pissy for about

[8:14] three weeks.

[8:15] >> Yeah.

[8:16] >> And this was while I was at home

[8:18] caregiving. So it it it was just this

[8:22] stew of like I don't want to feel this

[8:24] way but I do feel this way and I'm

[8:26] around my family and I like all of these

[8:28] pieces.

[8:30] >> And I don't I think there are two things

[8:33] here. one is I don't think we normalize

[8:36] that experience enough to say hey this

[8:40] is a possibility when you are healing or

[8:43] building your nervous system capacity um

[8:46] because you didn't have a place or space

[8:49] to actually process it or feel it in

[8:52] that moment. And so when you begin to do

[8:55] any kind of healing work,

[8:57] >> you're likely going to tap into anger or

[8:59] resentment or bitterness or grief or

[9:02] disappointment or something.

[9:04] >> Yeah.

[9:04] >> Negative.

[9:05] >> Yeah.

[9:06] >> At some moment in time because you just

[9:09] didn't give yourself the the space or

[9:11] the permission to feel it.

[9:14] >> So there's that.

[9:16] The other piece is

[9:19] connected to like, okay, so now that I

[9:22] have it and I feel it, how do I direct

[9:24] it? Like I want it to be productive

[9:27] versus it feeling like Godzilla all the

[9:30] time and now you're just like

[9:32] >> destroying the buildings and destroying

[9:34] the relationships as you move from your

[9:37] dayto day.

[9:39] >> So you wanna

[9:40] >> you want to unravel that a little bit

[9:43] and and see talk about what you see in

[9:46] your your work with people.

[9:49] >> I think the thing to if we just go like

[9:54] way back, you know, you mentioned there

[9:56] was never a time to process that or

[9:59] [clears throat] get it out.

[10:01] Uh if I go way back, like there might

[10:04] even be moments in your life that you

[10:06] won't remember because you were so

[10:07] little. Mhm.

[10:10] >> Uh that there's no tangible like

[10:15] what we would call declarative memory of

[10:18] that was the day that I didn't get this

[10:20] thing that I wanted and my sister did or

[10:22] my brother did or whatever or that was

[10:26] the day that um you know something

[10:28] really bad happened to me with another

[10:30] person and I froze

[10:34] because I my system had to and I

[10:36] couldn't fight. I couldn't flee.

[10:39] But under that is like so much fight and

[10:42] survival energy that wants to break

[10:44] free, but it can't.

[10:48] And so this is where context is so

[10:50] important, Donnie. Like I know that

[10:53] there's workshops in the world cuz I've

[10:55] heard about them. I don't know if

[10:56] they're still around, but like

[10:58] [clears throat]

[10:58] one could say they're a bit culty, but

[11:00] it's like you go to a weekend or a week

[11:04] and it's deep emotional processing and

[11:07] you are given a baseball bat that's

[11:09] plastic and I don't know, pillows or or

[11:12] mannequins or something and you just

[11:14] beat the [ __ ] out of these things

[11:17] because that's what we think anger work

[11:19] is or screaming, you know, and that all

[11:23] might be True.

[11:26] But one of the things that you learn in

[11:28] Smart Body, smart mind is that just the

[11:30] motion of moving

[11:33] the hit or the punch or the kick or the

[11:36] scratch or the scream or the get the

[11:39] heck, I got to get out of here. Like

[11:41] that's different than anger. That's

[11:42] flight energy. But

[11:44] >> those are all very important. We would

[11:46] call stored procedural memories to move

[11:48] out. But just the motion of doing them

[11:52] isn't enough. It has to be connected to

[11:56] something emotional, sensory,

[11:59] um, or even movement based that is very

[12:02] deeply neurological that has to do with

[12:05] maybe the time you could not

[12:08] I I'll just make something up. Put the

[12:10] brakes on the the car really fast and

[12:13] you hit someone and they died.

[12:15] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[12:16] >> And you're pissed because you couldn't

[12:19] put the brakes on for whatever reason. I

[12:22] don't know. just make up a reason and

[12:23] then someone got hurt. And so there's

[12:25] like this conflictingness of I just did

[12:28] something really bad and I wanted to do

[12:30] this but I couldn't.

[12:33] So I kind of paint those little

[12:35] scenarios and we could stay here for 2

[12:37] hours with all the ways that humans get

[12:39] into binds and get traumatized and don't

[12:42] get to fight or flee.

[12:44] And this is where it is so important to

[12:46] understand the diversity of how we do

[12:49] store things.

[12:51] Um, and that something that we might not

[12:54] consider to be traumatic could

[12:56] potentially be. So,

[13:00] like I'm going to go get my teeth

[13:01] cleaned tomorrow, which should be a

[13:03] pretty normal procedure, but I had I had

[13:06] to have some fillings about a month or

[13:08] so ago, and I never need fillings. I'm

[13:10] lucky that way for whatever reason. Mhm.

[13:13] >> They were so far back in my mouth and it

[13:17] was really really intense to have to

[13:19] stay there with this thing in my mouth

[13:21] and I was choking on my spit and then

[13:23] the freezing went down my you know and I

[13:26] wanted to break out of that bloody chair

[13:28] so badly

[13:30] [snorts]

[13:30] >> but I couldn't cuz I'm like if you don't

[13:32] stay here and freeze yourself a bit

[13:34] literally the whole body not just my

[13:36] gums you're going to have to come back

[13:38] and you're going to have to do this all

[13:39] over again. So, I reasoned with myself,

[13:43] but then of course afterwards I had a

[13:46] little bit of shaking energy. I was so

[13:48] tense in my jaw. I think I cried when I

[13:51] got into my car cuz it was so hard to be

[13:53] there. Um,

[13:55] a four-year-old or a 5-year-old or a

[13:58] six-year-old or someone who's 30 who

[14:01] doesn't understand survival physiology

[14:05] wouldn't know how to take themselves

[14:07] through that very intense but routine

[14:09] procedure

[14:11] and then the next day they might snap at

[14:15] their spouse.

[14:16] >> Mhm. or they might sleep and start being

[14:21] violent in a nightmare and hurt the

[14:23] person next to them

[14:25] and they're not connecting the dots

[14:27] with, "Wow, I was just held down or I

[14:30] had to make myself stay still when

[14:32] everything in my physiology wanted to

[14:34] bolt out of that dentist chair and say,

[14:37] "Fuck it. I don't want to do this right

[14:39] now."

[14:41] Right? So, I had the So, I was able to

[14:44] process it. You know, I'm I do some

[14:45] gentle things with my mouth to release

[14:47] the tension. I scream. But when you

[14:50] don't have that knowledge of how we as

[14:52] like there's no way that an animal I

[14:54] mean, you've got a dog. When animals go

[14:56] in for dentistry, cuz I know this cuz my

[14:58] parents were veterinarians. You can't do

[15:00] that with them awake. You have to put

[15:02] them put them under um anesthesia

[15:06] because it doesn't make sense to them.

[15:09] >> You can't reason with that dog no matter

[15:11] how well behaved it is. just breathe and

[15:15] it's going to be over. Like you got to

[15:16] put them out.

[15:19] So when you have an adult that doesn't

[15:21] understand their stress chemistry and

[15:23] their animal nature,

[15:27] that anger is there or whatever it might

[15:30] be. And and if you don't understand it,

[15:32] it can come out. Like you said, you had

[15:34] three weeks of frustration. You knew

[15:36] what was going on. And even though you

[15:38] knew what was going on, it was still

[15:39] tough.

[15:40] >> Yeah.

[15:42] Yeah. I

[15:45] one I just I was at the dentist last

[15:47] week and had to do a feeling. [laughter]

[15:49] >> There you go. So fun.

[15:52] >> Yeah, I I know that. Well, I

[15:54] [clears throat] want to go.

[15:56] >> Um but if I think back to those three

[15:59] weeks,

[16:02] >> uh I was just feeling the intensity of

[16:04] it. That's actually when I started

[16:06] working out more. So, I started going to

[16:10] the one of my um one of the tracks where

[16:15] I used to run.

[16:16] >> Cool.

[16:17] >> I would do

[16:19] semi- rigorous

[16:22] >> like sprints.

[16:23] >> Sprints. Yeah. And workouts. And the

[16:28] first couple of days I realized, oh,

[16:30] that is what it I need it, right? But

[16:34] then I associated, oh, this is this must

[16:38] be my remedy to get the rest of kind of

[16:42] this stored frustration and agitation

[16:44] out.

[16:45] >> Yeah. [clears throat]

[16:46] >> And so after like day four or five

[16:50] of running, I realized it didn't have

[16:52] the same effect.

[16:53] >> And it was now I needed something else.

[16:56] And then there was one day where I

[16:58] actually had to slow down and literally

[17:01] just drag

[17:04] do almost like a a runwalk

[17:06] >> y

[17:07] >> around and just listen to Okay, slow

[17:10] down.

[17:11] >> Slow down more.

[17:13] >> Slow down more.

[17:15] >> To the point where I was I could just

[17:16] feel myself going up and down and

[17:19] looking around the track. I was like,

[17:21] >> I have another 350 meters to go. like,

[17:25] do I have to go this slow this entire

[17:28] >> Yeah.

[17:29] >> time.

[17:30] >> Yeah.

[17:30] >> Yeah.

[17:31] >> And

[17:33] >> and so I did it. And I think what I

[17:36] recognized in that moment was, oh, this

[17:39] is so much more nuanced than, like you

[17:42] said, me running fast or me throwing

[17:46] about around a bunch of weights or

[17:48] screaming into a pillow or, you know,

[17:51] going to a rage room. All of those

[17:53] things have been helpful, but they don't

[17:57] >> they aren't the the remedy.

[18:00] >> No,

[18:02] >> for every moment of anger and

[18:04] frustration and agitation.

[18:06] >> Um, and I think these past couple of

[18:10] weeks when my anger has come up, it's

[18:13] been more

[18:16] connected to grief than anything.

[18:18] >> Yes. Yes. And so now I'm just learning

[18:21] how to allow myself to grieve. And

[18:24] sometimes that looks like crying, but

[18:26] sometimes that looks like sleeping for

[18:27] 10 hours,

[18:29] >> moping

[18:30] [laughter]

[18:31] >> and not doing anything and veging and

[18:33] watching something on Netflix and, you

[18:38] know, going to get ice cream or

[18:40] >> having some tea or having a cup or

[18:43] whatever it is.

[18:44] >> Yeah. And so I'm I'm having to or I

[18:47] shouldn't say I'm having to. I'm getting

[18:49] to relearn how to listen to the

[18:53] different needs of my different

[18:54] emotions, right? And anger doesn't look

[18:57] like one way and grief doesn't look like

[18:59] one way. And I think that's one of the

[19:03] the things that I hope listeners take

[19:06] away

[19:07] >> from this conversation is like your

[19:09] anger is going to look very different

[19:10] than mine

[19:12] >> and it's not always going to be

[19:13] screaming.

[19:14] >> Yep.

[19:15] >> Or

[19:16] >> doing something physical, right? Yeah.

[19:18] Sometimes it's just like

[19:21] >> Yeah. Or like laser eyes. It's like I'm

[19:25] going to kill you, [clears throat]

[19:27] you know? like

[19:29] this is where cartoons and like Avengers

[19:34] and X-Men, you know, with the powers,

[19:36] [snorts]

[19:37] >> it it's a very useful imagery, the

[19:40] superheroes

[19:42] and such, right? And a lot of the times,

[19:46] I mean, uh, the Hulk, the Incredible

[19:48] Hulk is a great example for those that

[19:50] remember the original Hulk. Um, I

[19:53] actually just did an interview with a

[19:55] friend of mine, Josh Murray. His movie

[19:58] is called Gym Rat. You'd love it. It's

[20:00] coming out October 20th. Shout out to

[20:02] Josh. Anyway, I've been supporting them

[20:05] since it was incepted, but they actually

[20:07] have Lou Fargno, who was the original

[20:09] Hulk in the movie.

[20:11] >> Oh, wow.

[20:12] >> And it's about rage and unresolved

[20:14] trauma. And but if you think about those

[20:18] classic scenes, if people remember, if

[20:21] you don't, like go look up original

[20:23] Incredible Hulk, like something would

[20:25] make him mad and he would try to

[20:28] suppress it and he couldn't and then he

[20:30] would, you know, break his shirt open

[20:32] and he'd be all green and he'd be this

[20:33] big monster. But then when he got

[20:36] somewhere that you know everything was

[20:38] fine and you know the damsel in distress

[20:40] or something is there he would just kind

[20:42] of have this look of like oh and then

[20:44] you would see the tenderness in him

[20:47] and then he would walk away with like

[20:49] his tattered clothes you know and and

[20:52] then feel almost and sometimes shame for

[20:55] what he had just done if he had hurt

[20:57] people cuz he wasn't inherently evil. He

[21:00] was you know not who he should have

[21:02] been. He was messed with. Right?

[21:05] >> And so the thing that's interesting with

[21:07] the anger is when it's properly moved

[21:10] out in the way that it has to be for the

[21:13] person and there's containment.

[21:16] Containment doesn't mean suppression,

[21:18] but you contain the anger so it isn't

[21:20] explosive and violent

[21:23] cuz violence is when anger and rage are

[21:26] not able to be contained.

[21:29] Um, when you get it out in the way that

[21:32] you're supposed to, you you walk away

[21:34] feeling better, you feel exhilarated, or

[21:37] you feel more calm. When it comes out in

[21:40] a way that's like not how maybe it

[21:43] should have, there can be, not always,

[21:45] but this sense of

[21:48] that wasn't what was supposed to happen.

[21:50] There can be like a bit of a shame

[21:51] attached to it. And then that's where

[21:53] it's like, okay, there's maybe something

[21:55] deeper under.

[21:57] And when there's been a real like

[21:59] assault or tragedy where there really

[22:01] was something bad that happened to you,

[22:04] that's a very different energy than my

[22:07] mom or dad weren't listening to me

[22:09] properly as a child.

[22:13] >> Yeah. One of

[22:15] the distinctions

[22:17] that you have um that you teach in your

[22:21] course and that was really actually very

[22:23] helpful is you talk about you and talk

[22:27] about like the annihilation energy.

[22:29] >> Yes.

[22:30] >> And the importance of being able to tap

[22:32] into it, be in it, express it.

[22:36] >> But what you say is annihilation is

[22:38] different than violence.

[22:39] >> Yes. Will you just talk about that a

[22:42] little bit so people can hear that?

[22:45] >> Yeah, this is a bit more advanced and

[22:47] Seth does have an article on his site. H

[22:50] if you look up the word annihilation and

[22:53] then my husband's name, Seth Lion,

[22:54] you'll find it and there's two articles

[22:57] actually that are open source on anger

[22:59] and healthy aggression and then that. So

[23:03] for us, this is not actually doing this.

[23:06] So I got to be very clear.

[23:09] I call it kill kill kill kill kill kill

[23:10] kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill

[23:10] kill kill kill kill kill kill kill

[23:10] energy annihilation energy sadism like

[23:14] working with your sadistic tendencies

[23:16] it is what is it's what James Bond

[23:20] villains are made out of

[23:22] if you think about the classic villain

[23:26] they might have some violence but they

[23:28] have this look of like searing rage but

[23:32] it's very directed

[23:34] versus like you know Jack Reacher is

[23:37] just beating everybody up and you know

[23:40] that's just like play fun. like it's not

[23:42] good, but it's like it's violence and

[23:44] it's protection and it's a novel, you

[23:46] know? So, it's like that that phamite up

[23:49] stuff, but it's the James Bond villain

[23:53] stare and the the the conniving evil

[23:56] energy

[23:58] that

[23:59] sometimes we as humans have to allow

[24:04] ourselves to feel when we've been harmed

[24:07] so so deeply.

[24:10] And I'll explain what that might look

[24:11] like in a second with an example. What

[24:13] often happens, Donnie, because most

[24:15] people are good people. I know people

[24:17] don't want to believe that, but most

[24:19] people, if most people weren't good

[24:20] people, we wouldn't be here. The

[24:22] infrastructures would be way worse.

[24:24] Trust me.

[24:26] >> Um, so most people are good people. And

[24:28] so they don't want to hurt someone even

[24:30] if they've been hurt. It's like, no, I

[24:32] can't imagine in my mind hurting my

[24:35] perpetrator or my parents or the person

[24:38] that cut me off. And then it's like,

[24:41] okay, we need to put your goodness and

[24:44] your soul over there like on the

[24:48] bookshelf. It's going to stay there.

[24:50] It's not going to let you go and hurt

[24:52] someone for real cuz it won't. This is

[24:57] the difference between those who have

[24:58] the ability to consciously work with

[25:00] this versus violence where you go out

[25:03] and you harm people.

[25:04] >> Yeah.

[25:05] >> Right. Psychopathy, sociopathy, that

[25:07] kind of thing. But we're going to work

[25:10] with your animal self.

[25:13] We're going to work with the self that

[25:15] wanted to tear that, you know, person's

[25:18] neck off, who attacked you, who abused

[25:22] you. We're going to work with squashing

[25:25] them into a ball like you would see in a

[25:29] superpower movie where you throw that

[25:32] person into the sun like I think

[25:34] Superman might have, you know, with bad

[25:36] people. It's like let's bring them into

[25:38] the sun and they poof they explode, you

[25:41] know? Or let's imagine the black hole

[25:44] that's out there and the only way to get

[25:47] rid of this image that I have of this

[25:49] bad thing is to take that image and box

[25:51] it and put it into that hole and it just

[25:53] gets gobbled up by gremlins and ghosts.

[25:57] And then you might even hear the sound

[25:59] of the he he and ah and like the

[26:02] screaming rage. Now, this might seem

[26:04] really intense for someone who's never

[26:06] even considered

[26:08] growling,

[26:10] right?

[26:12] But this is the edge that we would take

[26:14] someone to and have them go over in

[26:17] their mind to get that. It's really

[26:21] sadistic annihilation. I need to

[26:24] obliterate the this thing, this person.

[26:28] It could be my family system. You know,

[26:30] I've worked with people who are

[26:31] scapegoats in their family and they get

[26:33] it bloody hard.

[26:35] >> Let's put your entire family into that

[26:37] jar of pickles and pickle it. Like, I

[26:40] mean, it's si silly, but like that's and

[26:43] it doesn't have to be what I say. It's

[26:45] what is your imagination in that Lex

[26:48] Luthther, you know, uh, like crazy way.

[26:53] So, this would be annihilation energy.

[26:55] It isn't just beating a baseball bat.

[26:58] It's like color and hearing the sound.

[27:02] The other thing when you're working with

[27:03] and by the way this isn't something that

[27:05] you would do like on session one

[27:07] >> no

[27:08] >> with someone and this isn't actually

[27:10] even taught in the somatic experiencing

[27:12] training. This was taught to us via one

[27:14] of our SE

[27:17] uh senior elders who learned this from a

[27:20] lady by the name of Ivonne Agazerian. I

[27:23] believe she's passed. I'm not sure.

[27:25] Don't quote me on that. But she really

[27:27] worked with sadistic and masochistic

[27:30] energy in people and how important it is

[27:33] to harness that out so it doesn't

[27:36] envelope back to you.

[27:39] >> Because what happens when people don't

[27:41] get it out, they self harm.

[27:44] >> Yeah.

[27:46] There I feel like we're just going to

[27:49] have to have multiple conversations

[27:50] because my brain is like there's all

[27:52] these different pieces that we can talk

[27:54] about. There's a lot

[27:56] >> they I think the first piece to call out

[28:00] is um I'm going to include some of your

[28:04] videos.

[28:06] One being around titration and anger

[28:09] because people need to know

[28:12] like you said not jumping in and doing

[28:15] this in the first session is like this

[28:16] is this happens over time. So you do a

[28:18] little bit and then you back up. You

[28:20] [clears throat] do a little bit and back

[28:21] up. Yep. The

[28:25] the image that came to mind when you

[28:27] were talking about the annihilation

[28:29] energy.

[28:31] >> I was at

[28:34] uh a soccer game

[28:37] like three months ago and one of the

[28:39] players

[28:40] >> little boys was there. He had he might

[28:43] have been like two two and a half.

[28:45] >> Yeah.

[28:46] >> And the dad said, "Hey, don't do that."

[28:48] And the little boy he turned around and

[28:50] went

[28:52] >> [laughter]

[28:53] >> with that finger.

[28:54] >> with that finger.

[28:55] >> Oh, that's so cute.

[28:58] [laughter]

[29:00] >> And at first I was like, "Oh, shoot.

[29:02] Okay, he's he's he's pissed."

[29:05] >> Giving him the finger.

[29:07] >> And I loved it. I'm like, he was fully

[29:10] in his just this is how I feel right now

[29:14] and I'm going to express it to you

[29:17] regardless how you like it. So I there

[29:20] are moments

[29:22] when I feel the intensity of my my

[29:25] annihilation energy or my anger

[29:28] >> where I do that

[29:30] >> and it it's

[29:31] >> it's my connection point because it

[29:34] reminds me of

[29:35] >> the innocence of you know that little

[29:38] kid

[29:38] >> childhood

[29:39] >> right and

[29:41] >> the real like full embodiment of like

[29:44] here's what my body needs to do in this

[29:46] moment to get this thing

[29:50] >> um So I I love that visual for people

[29:54] and I you know I think when you watch

[29:58] kids get angry

[30:00] there is a level of compassion that we

[30:03] just have for them right it's like oh

[30:05] >> we have to yeah

[30:07] >> you're having some big feelings over

[30:08] there and

[30:10] >> yeah yeah

[30:10] >> it's kind of funny watching you have a

[30:12] tantrum so let me let me not dismiss it

[30:17] and really honor the the expression and

[30:20] the experience,

[30:22] >> but also let me remember like, okay,

[30:23] once you get it out, you go back to

[30:25] playing with blocks or, you know,

[30:27] >> yeah,

[30:28] >> pretending to be Spider-Man or Wonder

[30:30] Woman or whoever, and you're okay. And

[30:34] >> I think as adults, we

[30:37] because we don't always express the

[30:39] anger, we don't have the ability to

[30:42] express it fully in that moment because

[30:44] the real consequences, right, you

[30:46] probably shouldn't be flipping off your

[30:48] your boss once you're looking at them.

[30:50] you need to

[30:50] >> no

[30:51] >> wait and do that house. Um

[30:55] but

[30:57] if there is no

[30:59] space to fill it and express it then it

[31:02] just stores and stores and stores and

[31:04] stores and stores

[31:06] >> and I

[31:08] >> well that's a that's a good what you

[31:10] just said about the boss. I mean people

[31:12] might go to work and we do work stuff

[31:14] and

[31:16] we need a job. we can't be socially

[31:18] indecent and you know like Edward Norton

[31:22] was in Fight Club where he was just a

[31:24] menace. I mean it's just but that movie

[31:27] was so good in that it showed what

[31:31] unresolved rage looks like

[31:35] and and he displayed it so perfectly.

[31:38] You know, you can even leave Brad Pitt

[31:39] out of it like he was just being a

[31:41] menace. He was being a dick. Um, so the

[31:46] thing that a lot of the culture has, and

[31:48] I'm being general, is they have a day at

[31:51] work or a week at work or five years at

[31:53] work. And because there is no

[31:57] ritual uh uh practice that many do that

[32:02] cleanses out the stresses of the day.

[32:05] Typically, it's go to the bar and have

[32:07] some beers. I'm not against drinking,

[32:09] but it's like that that is the culture.

[32:11] Or, you know, wait till the weekend and

[32:14] then just party your face off and let it

[32:17] all out. Again, you know, sometimes you

[32:19] got to have a good time. Um or go to the

[32:21] hockey game here in, you know, Vancouver

[32:23] and scream and get mad at the person

[32:26] sitting next to you. Like all that is

[32:29] could be fun culture, right? We'll all

[32:31] agree, you know, I think we agree with

[32:32] that. But if that is something that has

[32:34] to occur to get rid of the stresses of

[32:36] the day all the time, that means that in

[32:38] your day life, daily life, there isn't a

[32:41] recycling

[32:42] of that stress, of that survival energy,

[32:46] and then it pence up and binds up. And

[32:49] that is why people get sick. That is why

[32:51] people go on benders and binge and come

[32:55] home and treat their kids terribly

[32:58] because they didn't know how to process

[33:00] and do a little or a little shake or go

[33:04] for a walk at lunch and release or the

[33:08] tears that wanted to come out and then

[33:10] they come out as violence later in the

[33:12] day to your family members. Right? So

[33:14] there's there is like this missing piece

[33:17] I think in our culture

[33:20] that is not taught and this is a huge

[33:23] conversation because it has to do with

[33:24] just general regulation in our culture

[33:27] um where we don't know how to process

[33:31] stress in real time. We have to go to

[33:34] something to process stress.

[33:38] And I'm again, I'm not saying that going

[33:40] to the yoga class or playing raetball at

[33:42] the end of the day isn't or going to the

[33:44] gym isn't good. Those are all good

[33:45] things. But we can move that stuff out

[33:48] of us in real time.

[33:52] But you have to know how to feel your

[33:53] body and have I mean, you know this

[33:55] lingo from SPSM. Work with the

[33:57] diaphragms. Work with the kidney

[33:59] adrenals. Know how to soften your brain

[34:02] stem. Orient a little bit. Give your

[34:05] body water, food, a break.

[34:09] But we have to push through. And then we

[34:12] disconnect from the body. And then at

[34:15] the end of the day, we're craving body

[34:18] stuff.

[34:20] >> Yeah. I you know you you and I have had

[34:23] conversations around my my voice

[34:26] disorder and it being connected to

[34:29] >> Yeah.

[34:29] >> a lot of dysregulation.

[34:31] >> Sure.

[34:32] >> And what has been coming up lately is

[34:37] the amount of bracing I learned how to

[34:41] do in order to not express my anger. So

[34:45] it's like that thing triggered me.

[34:48] >> Oh yeah. And then you're you're

[34:50] literally suffocating yourself.

[34:52] >> Yeah.

[34:53] >> Yeah.

[34:54] >> Yeah. And

[34:56] to learn how to soften and like move the

[35:00] neck and feel the

[35:03] >> the knot in the back of my like

[35:05] >> Okay. Yeah. That's part of it, too. When

[35:08] it goes up to my eyes and all of these

[35:09] other pieces,

[35:11] >> it's really it's cool now that you asked

[35:14] [laughter] me like three or four years

[35:16] ago. I'm like,

[35:17] >> what are we do? How long does this take?

[35:19] And why why am I doing I just open I

[35:22] opened the box. I know we're going to

[35:24] wrap up here in a few.

[35:25] >> And

[35:27] I think the last piece

[35:30] um is connected to your comments around

[35:33] rage.

[35:34] >> Yeah,

[35:35] >> I'm still trying to think figure out do

[35:38] I think about anger and rage as being

[35:40] one and the same or do I think about

[35:42] them as being different things

[35:46] >> differently? They're different. How are

[35:48] they best for you?

[35:49] >> I I would say um

[35:52] anger is we would I mean this is this is

[35:55] like psychology talk but like the the

[35:58] basic emotions are fear, anger, sadness,

[36:04] disgust and surprise. Joy, sorry. Six.

[36:09] And anger is an interesting one because

[36:12] it's protective.

[36:15] Sadness isn't protective. Sad, you know,

[36:17] surprise isn't protective. Joy isn't

[36:20] protective.

[36:23] Disgust isn't protective. But anger is

[36:26] it is a survival element.

[36:32] And there's I'm going to draw a line

[36:33] with my hand. Like there's gradations,

[36:35] right? There's what you There's

[36:37] irritation.

[36:40] Now that that stuff is just irritating

[36:42] me. Why did this not irritate me before

[36:44] and now it is? Right? It could be little

[36:47] things like, "Oh, the shoes are always

[36:49] all over the garage." Like, that just

[36:51] pisses me off. Why can't they put them

[36:53] the way they should be? Right? Whereas

[36:55] before you just let it slide. And then

[36:57] there's like, yeah, irritation,

[36:59] frustration. Um, when we have stored

[37:02] anger or anger that's not moving out, we

[37:06] can snap at people. we can be over

[37:09] coupled with things that have nothing to

[37:11] do with what we're angry. And that's

[37:13] where like the classic your day is fine

[37:16] and and then you scream at the post man

[37:19] or the bank teller and it has nothing to

[37:21] do with the bank teller or the post, you

[37:24] know, it's like it's something old. And

[37:26] then there's like healthy aggression,

[37:29] which is natural in all humans. And

[37:32] babies start that when they start to

[37:35] pull and scratch and bite. It's not cuz

[37:39] they're trying to be mean to mom.

[37:42] It's because I've got claws. I have

[37:45] teeth. I have strength. And I want to

[37:48] use it. And the thing that you want to

[37:50] do when a baby starts to get that is you

[37:52] want to play with them.

[37:55] You don't want to punish them. And I'm

[37:58] sure we could find in internet videos

[38:00] that show moms punishing. I I've heard

[38:04] that some people will say, I don't know

[38:06] who these people are, but I've heard

[38:07] this from moms, that if a baby is biting

[38:10] you or hurting you, you pinch them back.

[38:14] Like you give them a shock with pain.

[38:16] It's like a conditioned Pavlovian. It's

[38:19] like spanking, right? Or you know, my

[38:21] dad grew up in the world where you're,

[38:23] you know, ruler. I've got a wooden ruler

[38:25] here cuz I still have one from school,

[38:27] you know. So, it's like we do that to

[38:30] babies when they do things that we think

[38:32] aren't right, but that's just their

[38:34] animal. They're like, it's strong.

[38:36] [clears throat]

[38:36] >> Yeah, I'm online.

[38:38] >> It's like, look at me. And that's where

[38:40] you like, whoa, look at how strong you

[38:42] are. And maybe they're hurting your

[38:44] hair. And you don't say you're hurting

[38:46] mommy's hair. You just say, let's pull.

[38:48] Yeah. And then you smile. And because

[38:50] that healthy aggression also connects to

[38:52] life force

[38:55] that's the I am I'm going to protect

[38:57] myself. This is my body. I feel it. So

[39:01] there's so there's like irritation,

[39:02] frustration, healthy aggression. Rage is

[39:06] more so something that comes up when it

[39:08] has been so repressed for so long.

[39:14] And a person can rage and not be

[39:16] violent.

[39:18] One could say that when a toddler is

[39:21] having like the kind of tantrum where

[39:24] everyone has to close like this cuz it's

[39:25] so loud, that is little person rage.

[39:29] That's rage. They're not trying to be a

[39:31] nuisance. They have reached their max

[39:33] and they are over their max and they got

[39:35] to get it out.

[39:36] >> Yeah.

[39:38] >> Um and then violence of course is we all

[39:42] know what that is. Um it's when you hurt

[39:45] others, you hurt yourself in the

[39:46] process.

[39:48] And it isn't always big. I mean, I've

[39:51] done some talks on the case of the uni

[39:54] bomber, Ted Gazinski.

[39:56] That's a great story to research to

[39:59] understand.

[40:01] Uh, violence doesn't have to look like a

[40:03] big monster who's ripping your head off.

[40:06] It was very slow, very vindictive, but

[40:08] he was deeply hurt throughout his

[40:12] childhood and then finally by the

[40:13] government through MK Ultra, right? And

[40:16] so it's like, okay, that made what he

[40:19] did, not that it was right, made sense

[40:21] to me. He put bombs in postage packages

[40:26] to that was his way of saying, "F you."

[40:30] >> Yeah.

[40:31] >> Anyway, so that's like the spectrum. Of

[40:33] course, there's lots of nuance in that,

[40:36] but when we cannot contain and control

[40:40] and move it out, but we rage, it's not

[40:42] it's not going to integrate. So, we want

[40:44] to find these ways to first work with

[40:47] our physiology to get to know this

[40:50] inside

[40:52] because in order to really move healthy

[40:54] anger out, you need to be connected to

[40:57] the root. Like if I bring in the

[40:58] chakras, the root chakra needs to be

[41:01] open as does the throat, as does here,

[41:05] as does the top of the head. And what

[41:07] happens, Donnie, is when people try to

[41:09] get that stuff out and these these

[41:12] corners of the body are shut, it's like

[41:14] you're trying to squeak out a scream.

[41:19] Um,

[41:20] it's like a it's like an opera singer

[41:22] who can't move in their diaphragm.

[41:25] Like to get that sound out, you have to

[41:28] have these big chambers moving.

[41:32] The other thing I'll say, because I'm

[41:33] sure there's some, you know, ladies

[41:35] here, like it's hard to birth children

[41:38] naturally and easily when you can't

[41:41] express your anger and you can't ex get

[41:44] into this body cuz everything is so

[41:47] tight.

[41:48] >> Yeah.

[41:49] >> And the just one more piece, the jaw

[41:51] here, this TMJ in osteopathic and

[41:54] probably Chinese medicine is connected

[41:56] to the hips.

[41:58] So when the jaw is tight, the hips are

[42:01] tight and vice versa. When the hips are

[42:03] really tight, this can't open. So that's

[42:06] it's a chain, right? It's all connected.

[42:12] This is so good. And you uh I've

[42:16] actually been wanting to have this

[42:18] conversation with you for probably a

[42:20] year and a half.

[42:22] >> At least it's not five years. That's

[42:24] good. [laughter]

[42:27] It's one of my f It's a favorite top

[42:29] book topic of mine because we just don't

[42:32] see it done healthfully.

[42:34] >> Yeah.

[42:36] um other cultures

[42:38] that have dance and chanting and

[42:43] drumming and ceremony and ritual and I

[42:47] don't mean you know we have a little

[42:48] candle that we light and have a fire in

[42:50] our backyard like

[42:52] like where it's integrated into the

[42:54] society

[42:56] there's a reason why those things have

[42:59] sound and and chanting and singing and

[43:03] clapping ing and stomping

[43:08] and all. It's like it's getting into the

[43:10] body. Um, and what we tend to do in our

[43:12] more western world is we have we go to

[43:16] the singing and then we go to the yoga

[43:18] and then we go to the whatever. And it's

[43:21] like but we need to we need to bring it

[43:23] all together. And it doesn't have to be

[43:25] a religion or a dogma. Let's just think

[43:28] back to like ancestors

[43:32] and what they were doing, right?

[43:38] Yeah. I I'm really kind of fascinated to

[43:42] see what ends up kind of emerging for me

[43:49] in the next couple of months and maybe

[43:51] even the next year because

[43:56] >> because of my desire to have

[43:58] conversations like this around like what

[44:00] does grief look like?

[44:02] >> What does anger look like? What does it

[44:04] look like when it is expressed through

[44:08] movement in the body? What does it look

[44:10] like when it is vocalized? Right? I

[44:12] think my

[44:14] >> communication training work has changed

[44:17] a lot

[44:19] >> because now most of my conversations

[44:21] with leaders are around like what do you

[44:24] need to say?

[44:26] Yeah.

[44:26] >> Yeah. You can play nice, but like

[44:29] >> you're not going to play it nice and

[44:31] >> tell me what you need to say. And let's

[44:33] >> focus on communicating that in different

[44:37] ways. You can have um

[44:39] >> Yeah.

[44:39] >> Hey, here's a way that's going to get

[44:41] you fired and here's a way that might be

[44:42] a little more diplomatic. Which Yes.

[44:45] Which way do you want to go?

[44:46] >> Yes.

[44:48] Um and and so it's cool to see how

[44:53] coming back online is getting expressed

[44:56] through my personal relationships,

[44:58] through my professional work,

[45:00] >> even through my creativity. Like I'm

[45:02] getting back into more artistic

[45:05] endeavors, which has been kind of cool.

[45:08] So, we'll see.

[45:10] >> It comes back to that life force.

[45:12] >> Yeah. Um,

[45:15] we all have it or had it

[45:18] or if we didn't have it in our 3D

[45:22] vessel, our soul is waiting

[45:26] for it. If I just say that. And if we've

[45:31] really been damaged

[45:33] physically, emotionally, sexually,

[45:36] spiritually, which happens to people,

[45:38] you got to work a little harder to get

[45:41] all the pieces online.

[45:44] But that that spark of the life force,

[45:47] that is where the animal energy

[45:52] can be really useful. and then

[45:54] connecting it to the human energy which

[45:56] is the creativity.

[45:59] Right? Humans are inherently creative.

[46:04] >> And we can maintain our creativity with

[46:07] sustainability

[46:09] when we're not in nervous system

[46:11] dysregulation.

[46:13] Like and we all know of artists who have

[46:15] not lasted past age 28, 27 cuz their

[46:19] creativity was unchecked. It was

[46:21] unhinged.

[46:23] We got some great art and music and and

[46:26] that but they burned out because there

[46:29] wasn't that recycling.

[46:31] And I think the thing I think the next

[46:34] sort of uh evolution if you want to call

[46:36] that for those wanting to go this path

[46:39] of like real deep

[46:42] human evolution is the animal has to be

[46:47] taken care of us.

[46:50] the the mental has to be because we have

[46:53] this brain which is the human but then

[46:55] the creativity is like I don't think

[46:58] we've even seen

[47:01] what's possible.

[47:04] Um we know what animals can do in the

[47:07] wild. They do pretty good without us.

[47:10] [laughter]

[47:11] And so we got a little bit more work to

[47:13] do because of this higher brain

[47:15] and then our different capacities is is

[47:18] these soul creatures. So, but I I cannot

[47:22] say enough if anyone is here who is is

[47:24] suffering from what we might call

[47:26] depression, chronic illness,

[47:30] directional challenge, like you just

[47:32] don't know.

[47:34] go back, find someone to work with, you

[47:37] know, work with me, work with you, and

[47:39] like what was the core wound that didn't

[47:42] allow that life force

[47:45] to keep shining or what put that out

[47:49] >> or what put that out in your ancestry

[47:51] that you're still trying to like spark

[47:53] back up with the lighter?

[47:57] >> Yeah.

[47:59] Um there might be some people who are

[48:02] interested in in learning more about you

[48:04] and your work. So I'll include that

[48:05] there. But do you want to say a little

[48:07] bit about foundations?

[48:09] >> Yeah. Yeah. So um I'll do a little plug.

[48:13] >> Yeah. [laughter]

[48:15] It's all you

[48:17] >> I don't care anymore. It's like this is

[48:19] what I do. Um so I I'm a practitioner.

[48:22] I've been a practitioner of human health

[48:24] and healing since 97. Feld and Christ

[48:27] train somatic experiencing and then all

[48:30] the level not all but some pretty deep

[48:32] offshoots from Peter Lavine's work

[48:34] working with early trauma.

[48:37] So I put the first ever online course on

[48:40] trauma healing out there in 2014

[48:44] and then it got really jelled in 2016.

[48:46] So it's been over 10 years and with

[48:50] anything you know it's not perfect the

[48:52] first time and as you know we've added

[48:55] things we've improved things we've taken

[48:57] things out and so after about 10 years

[49:01] of feedback Donnie we I'm like okay we

[49:04] need to shift how this is presented cuz

[49:07] there was still a lot of confusion on

[49:09] how to do the work and so

[49:12] now smart body smart mind is in three

[49:14] segments it's completely self-study. If

[49:18] people want to be part of a membership

[49:20] to be on live calls, that is extra, you

[49:23] know, in terms of a monthly fee, but I

[49:24] think it's fair because there's a lot of

[49:26] good stuff there. But the foundations

[49:29] curriculum is completely new and it's

[49:33] really what I have been teaching more

[49:35] and more in my uh mentorships with

[49:39] practitioners and training. when I am on

[49:41] live calls, drop in classes, I will be

[49:44] more integrated in how I teach and how I

[49:46] practice.

[49:48] So, foundations is uh yeah, audio

[49:51] lessons, but they're not they're nothing

[49:55] like what anyone will have probably

[49:57] taught.

[49:58] >> Yeah, they're

[50:00] it's foundational attunement. Like, it's

[50:03] reatuning yourself to your biology. It's

[50:06] the stuff that you we should have gotten

[50:07] when we were little, like baby little.

[50:10] And then the the theory is eight

[50:12] training videos I'm teaching. There's

[50:14] handouts. You literally fill in the

[50:17] blanks. So it's like active learning.

[50:19] It's not can't be passive. So I'll say

[50:22] that like if someone here just wants to

[50:24] be entertained by me cuz they like

[50:26] listening to me. It's not it like you

[50:28] can do that but you have to like pen to

[50:30] paper. I even get people to say out loud

[50:33] some of the things even though I'm not

[50:35] there. Voicing what we're learning is

[50:38] super important. So that's foundations.

[50:41] Um, one could say you would take 3 weeks

[50:44] to go through it. 3 to four weeks. And

[50:47] then and then level one, which is SPSM

[50:50] level one, is what you would have

[50:52] originally gone through a portion of it.

[50:54] But even that, I've redone the breathing

[50:57] lessons. I've redone the joints lessons.

[50:59] I've re redone the containment lessons,

[51:02] [laughter]

[51:02] and I've redone the three training calls

[51:04] that go with it. So, um, it's actually

[51:07] it's the same concepts, Donnie, but it's

[51:10] packaged in what I've learned over 10

[51:13] years, and we have already seen people

[51:17] who have gone through it all are having

[51:20] more effect because of the way it's been

[51:22] stacked.

[51:24] >> Um, and that's just from experience.

[51:25] Like, I didn't know 10 years ago what

[51:27] was needed. Um, I knew something was

[51:29] needed. Um, but I'm really excited about

[51:33] this new evolution.

[51:35] Um, it's just simpler, but it's also

[51:38] more complex. It's kind of weird to

[51:40] describe that, but that's what it's

[51:42] like.

[51:43] >> I love it. I'm I'm excited about going

[51:45] through foundations and

[51:46] >> Yeah.

[51:47] >> and going through SPSM

[51:50] level one again because I learn

[51:53] something different every time I

[51:56] >> Yeah.

[51:57] >> go through it. So the the work just

[51:59] becomes more and more integrated.

[52:01] >> You have to repeat it.

[52:03] >> Y

[52:03] >> I mean I can't tell you how many times

[52:05] I've taught those training calls, how

[52:07] many times I've taught basic orienting.

[52:10] >> Um it gets boring,

[52:14] but it gets to be like your second

[52:17] language.

[52:19] And that's what most many of us did not

[52:22] get in our initial connections with the

[52:25] humans and the environment. we didn't

[52:27] get the right stuff.

[52:29] And when you're a baby, you don't just

[52:31] get picked up once. You have to get

[52:33] picked up every day, multiple times a

[52:37] day for years. And then, of course,

[52:39] toddlers. And and so people have this

[52:41] thought that a somatic nervous system

[52:44] exercise where you just shake a little

[52:46] bit, you know, and do this is going to

[52:48] be what gives you regulation. We It's

[52:51] like we have to flip it on its head and

[52:54] be like we got to go back to how you re

[52:56] how you learned when you were little.

[52:59] And this is not a quick fix

[53:03] sound exercise where you do some sounds

[53:05] like it's really I think it's exciting

[53:09] cuz it's something that I've seen works

[53:13] and I do feel when we can get this part

[53:16] right

[53:17] the other stuff we do whether it's

[53:19] massage fitness

[53:22] choir school like we've had students

[53:25] Donnie who have gone back to post-secary

[53:26] education in their 60s

[53:30] cuz they finally can learn

[53:34] because they're not in survival stress.

[53:37] >> Yeah.

[53:37] >> Um so it's it's like I mean I'm not

[53:40] going to do it or maybe I like I'd love

[53:42] to go back to university and just see

[53:44] what it's like to be in university and

[53:46] learn without being driven with

[53:49] functional freeze. I mean could you

[53:50] imagine?

[53:51] >> I Yeah. I literally have [laughter] been

[53:55] in a certificate class for the past

[53:58] month and a half and didn't do anything

[54:03] um until the deadline which was last

[54:07] Friday. Uh

[54:08] >> oh.

[54:08] >> Because I was just I was toast from

[54:10] caregiving from travel

[54:13] >> like decompress.

[54:16] >> Yeah. And I the last two days I sat

[54:19] there and I could feel myself freaking

[54:22] out. And then as I started

[54:24] [clears throat] reading and going

[54:25] through it, it it was hard and tedious,

[54:30] but it was so much more enjoyable

[54:32] because I'm like, "Oh,

[54:34] >> I'm actually taking in the information

[54:36] and remembering the information and

[54:38] >> oh, I'm doing well on these quizzes and

[54:40] I can do this." And so school felt a lot

[54:43] easier.

[54:44] >> Yeah.

[54:45] because of the regulation and my new my

[54:48] new course started today and I'm not I'm

[54:51] not waiting

[54:52] >> good to do it.

[54:54] >> So it's going to be fun watching

[54:57] myself learn in a more peaceful kind of

[55:00] regulated space. [clears throat]

[55:02] >> It's what we need.

[55:04] >> It is definitely what we need. We need

[55:06] you. We need Seth. We need the work that

[55:09] you all are continuing to do with

[55:11] people.

[55:11] >> And you're and you too, darling. You're

[55:13] moving it. You're going to move it. I

[55:14] know you're moving it forward. So,

[55:16] >> thank you.

[55:18] >> Thank you. Thank you.

[55:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[55:21] >> I hope you

[55:22] >> No, I know. I know you're busy. You're

[55:24] getting ready to to do some traveling.

[55:27] So,

[55:27] >> yes.

[55:27] >> Thank you for your time.

[55:29] >> You are welcome.

[55:30] >> Thank you for the conversation and we

[55:32] will talk soon.

[55:34] >> Bye bye everyone.

[55:36] >> Bye.

IL
Artist
Irene Lyon

Watch more from Irene Lyon on YouTube.

Website
Explore Topics
Repressed-angerHealthy-aggressionNervous-system-regulationTrauma-healingProcedural-memory

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

In this conversation, Irene Lyon explains that as nervous system capacity grows, stored stressors and survival energy begin to surface. Her swimming pool analogy describes a small capacity that can only hold so much, and healing both enlarges the pool and lets the held material rise. Anger, resentment and grief often appear because earlier there was no space or permission to feel them.
Lyon distinguishes healthy aggression, which can be used with a clear target and boundary, from rage, which is more overwhelming and less contained. She also separately describes annihilation energy as a more extreme state in which the impulse is to erase or destroy rather than simply push back. Treating all of these as one thing, she suggests, is part of why people either suppress everything or act out.
Lyon acknowledges that physical expression such as striking, kicking or screaming can matter, since these are stored procedural memories that the body needs to move out. However, she says the motion alone is not enough. The gesture needs to be connected to the lived experience that created the anger, or it can leave a person as activated as before.
Lyon describes a pattern of swinging between playing no victim and playing too much victim, often alongside beliefs that anger makes you a bad or mean person. Donnie Hill describes feeling he could not be angry at his parents or circumstances, then recognizing that he was. Lyon notes that anger is a deeply protective survival response that often begins in infancy.
Hill describes wanting his anger to be productive rather than feeling like Godzilla, destroying relationships as he moves through his day. Lyon's approach is to distinguish what is being felt, what it connects to, and how much the present situation can hold, while working with bracing patterns and the diaphragm to release stored tension.
Based on this conversation, not necessarily. Lyon and Hill frame surfacing anger as a common stage of healing that is rarely normalized. It can be evidence that a person's capacity has grown enough to hold material that was previously pushed down, though the work may need to unfold over multiple conversations.

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