Transcript
[0:00] So, I think yesterday or no, that would
[0:03] be a week ago or wait,
[0:06] 3 weeks ago.
[0:07] >> [laughter]
[0:08] >> I know that at one point I was on Zoom
[0:11] talking about the book I am going to
[0:12] talk about today. It was not yesterday
[0:15] nor was it even last week.
[0:17] >> [sighs]
[0:18] >> I read a good book. It's called Worth.
[0:20] It's by a woman named uh Marisa Franco.
[0:24] And it has a lot of delicious
[0:26] psychological theory in there and it
[0:28] made me happy. It also made sense of
[0:31] something that um occurred in our house.
[0:34] I believe it was last night. I'm trying
[0:35] to recall future
[0:37] past dates and they're getting very
[0:39] tumbled. Was it last night or the night
[0:40] before that we had a delicious feast,
[0:42] Ro?
[0:43] Feast?
[0:44] Night before last. Okay. So, Ro, my
[0:47] lovely partner, one of my lovely
[0:49] partners, and her mother, the lovely
[0:51] Paula,
[0:52] they were cooking a festival feast for
[0:55] our family. We were in a celebrating
[0:58] kind of mood and so they went and got a
[0:59] roast and they put in all these fresh
[1:02] organic vegetables from the garden and
[1:04] it was all amazing and they were cooking
[1:06] away
[1:07] and it went on for some time, the
[1:09] cooking, huge amounts of vegetables. I
[1:11] mean, it was a cornucopia of bounty. And
[1:16] um
[1:17] then uh
[1:18] it got close to dinner time and Ro said
[1:21] to everybody, "Get ready. Find all the
[1:23] stuff you need." I always mix up a
[1:25] prebiotic drink and whatever. So, she
[1:27] said, "Get your special drink ready.
[1:29] We're having dinner." So, I put
[1:30] everything together and then I went into
[1:32] the kitchen
[1:33] and it was such an odd scene. Ro and
[1:35] Paula were just standing there vacantly.
[1:37] They weren't doing anything. They were
[1:38] just looking kind of into the middle
[1:40] distance.
[1:41] And
[1:43] what had happened was this.
[1:45] They took the roast out of the oven
[1:49] and were not satisfied with the way the
[1:51] vegetables had cooked up around the
[1:52] roast. So, they had taken the vegetables
[1:54] out of the roast pan and they put it on
[1:56] some cookie sheets and they were baking
[1:59] the vegetables and they were waiting
[2:01] while the meat rested. I did not know
[2:02] meat had to rest once it was that
[2:04] completely deceased.
[2:06] Um and by the way, we always like
[2:09] I know there are some people I'm not
[2:10] even going to argue with the vegans, but
[2:12] we do have happy happy cows. We go to a
[2:15] place with happy cows. Anyway,
[2:17] um
[2:19] they were waiting for the vegetables to
[2:20] cook and the meat to rest.
[2:22] And I just came in and I said, "How's it
[2:24] going?" And Ro Ro looked glum and she
[2:26] said it didn't really work.
[2:29] And I looked at the roasting pan and in
[2:30] the bottom of the roasting pan were like
[2:33] remnants of vegetables, these little
[2:36] tiny sort of
[2:38] dissolved clumps of what looked like it
[2:40] had once been a vegetable and I thought,
[2:42] "Good lord, that did not go well." And
[2:44] like all those vegetables cooked down to
[2:46] this It was maybe a cup and I'm talking
[2:48] about a tableful of vegetables.
[2:51] So, it had all like disappeared in the
[2:53] oven and and boiled down to this very
[2:55] tiny state. And I just walked in there
[2:58] and saw them with the meat and this tiny
[3:01] bit of vegetables staring into the
[3:04] middle distance without doing a thing.
[3:07] And I
[3:08] I thought that I mean, I thought we were
[3:10] all ready for dinner and so
[3:12] I decided I Nobody said anything. I just
[3:15] froze there looking at them like, "What
[3:17] are we going to eat?" And they didn't
[3:18] say anything and I decided that the
[3:20] vegetables had
[3:22] melted in the oven into this tiny tiny
[3:25] pile and that they were grieving.
[3:27] And so, I tried to be respectful of
[3:29] their grieving.
[3:31] And then I said the the silence just got
[3:33] to be too much for me and I said,
[3:35] "What is happening?"
[3:36] >> [laughter]
[3:37] >> And they said, "We're letting the meat
[3:39] rest while the vegetables cook."
[3:41] And suddenly everything changed for me
[3:43] and life was better again and there was
[3:45] harmony in our home instead of grief and
[3:47] sorrow over the disappearing vegetables.
[3:49] So, the reason I'm telling you all this
[3:52] is memory reconsolidation theory, of
[3:55] course.
[3:57] So, if you've ever had therapy or read a
[3:59] self-help book, which would pretty much
[4:01] be all of us, I would hope, if you're if
[4:03] you're on this particular podcast, you
[4:06] probably are familiar with the idea that
[4:08] you have lots of memories, and a lot of
[4:10] them are of things that didn't really
[4:11] feel great. Some really bad
[4:14] socialization, maybe trauma, maybe lots
[4:17] of trauma, you know? And those memories,
[4:19] woo, they're harsh. And once they're
[4:21] there, and they happen, they're they're
[4:23] stuck in your brain, or so a
[4:26] psychologist used to think.
[4:28] But then there was this man named Karim
[4:30] Nader,
[4:32] or Nadder, don't know how to pronounce
[4:33] it, but he did some work with rats,
[4:36] um right around the turn of this
[4:38] century.
[4:39] And what he did, and then, you know,
[4:42] this is why I could never be a
[4:44] like research psychologist. It involves
[4:46] hurting the feelings, at least, of rats.
[4:50] So, what this guy did is he
[4:51] >> [sighs]
[4:52] >> he
[4:53] sounded this beep,
[4:54] and he shocked their little rat feet
[4:56] until they would get a stress response
[4:58] just at the sound of the beep.
[5:01] And then he he reliably tested them that
[5:03] he would beep, and they would panic,
[5:05] they would feel bad.
[5:06] And then he um
[5:09] just before retriggering the memory, he
[5:12] gave them an anti-anxiety drug.
[5:16] So, now the thing went beep, and they
[5:18] were basically high. So, they just lay
[5:21] there.
[5:22] And then the next day, after they were
[5:23] no longer high, he took them he measured
[5:27] their their frequencies or whatever, and
[5:29] he sounded the beep. They did not react.
[5:33] Their memories had reconsolidated
[5:36] around a different experience in which
[5:39] the shock didn't have such a powerful
[5:42] negative effect. Okay, so this is how
[5:44] this works, it's amazing.
[5:46] They've actually traced the the
[5:48] biochemical pathways in which this
[5:50] happens. So, you've got these synapses
[5:52] in your brain. Every memory is just a
[5:54] set of synapses, nerves that are
[5:55] connected and wrapped with a sheet of
[5:57] myelin that help you remember a certain
[6:00] thing. Now, when you recall a memory,
[6:04] what happens is that for a brief time,
[6:06] about 4 to 6 hours, the memory is what
[6:09] they call open
[6:10] or labile. It's subject to change.
[6:14] So, when it gets activated, it's sort of
[6:17] um goes into this more active state or
[6:20] when it gets open, it goes into this
[6:21] more active state. And at that point, if
[6:23] you introduce something that doesn't
[6:25] match your interpretation of the
[6:28] original memory,
[6:30] then it changes the memory.
[6:33] And then it after the 5-hour window is
[6:35] gone, six at the most, it reconstitutes,
[6:39] reconsolidates the memory.
[6:40] But now it's a different memory. It's
[6:43] literally a different memory. Now, you
[6:45] are not changing the facts of the
[6:47] memory. So, like if you had uh an
[6:50] episode of abuse in your childhood or
[6:52] something or you know, something
[6:53] terrible happened to you,
[6:55] nobody's saying you're going to erase
[6:57] the facts of that experience.
[7:00] What it erases is the negative impact.
[7:03] And you can do it. I mean, I gave you a
[7:06] silly example of me and Roe and Paula in
[7:09] the kitchen where I had one
[7:11] interpretation of what they were doing
[7:12] and then they told me what was actually
[7:14] happening and I was like, "Oh, okay.
[7:17] They're not angry at me. They're not
[7:19] grieving. They're not They're
[7:20] Everybody's just waiting for the meat to
[7:21] rest." And suddenly it had a very, very
[7:24] different emotional resonance for me.
[7:26] And I started to realize that I have
[7:28] spent large chunks of my life
[7:32] reconsolidating memories
[7:34] and I didn't even know I was doing it.
[7:36] So,
[7:37] for example, once I
[7:40] there was a person I knew in graduate
[7:42] school who was really together, very
[7:44] elegant, very chic, and I always felt
[7:46] really ashamed around her. Like I
[7:49] She always seemed to have it so
[7:50] together, and I was like and my whole
[7:52] life falls apart all the time, and I
[7:54] kept getting pregnant and whatnot. I was
[7:56] married. It wasn't like I was just Never
[7:58] mind. Anyway,
[8:00] um you see how I am, right? You see how
[8:03] I am. And this is a source of shame. It
[8:06] would be for you, too.
[8:08] So, once I ran into this woman, and we
[8:10] got talking about graduate school, and I
[8:13] finally just said, "Ah, I just
[8:15] I felt like such a hot mess talking to
[8:17] you, and I always like
[8:19] There's so much shame about how together
[8:22] you were, and I was such a mess." And
[8:24] she said,
[8:25] "You thought I was a together?"
[8:28] She said, "I wasn't together. I was
[8:30] armored.
[8:31] I was stuck. I was rigid, and you were
[8:34] flexible, and you were open, and you
[8:36] didn't mind saying what you thought, and
[8:38] I envied you."
[8:40] And I literally had to go home and lie
[8:41] down because I was busy for the next 3
[8:45] to 5 hours reconsolidating a memory.
[8:49] And now in my memory, I meet that
[8:51] person, and there is no wave wave of
[8:53] shame. There is this wave of compassion
[8:56] cuz I understand now what she was going
[8:58] through. I've I've let her know what I
[9:00] was going through, and I hope it
[9:01] reconsolidated for her, too. So, both of
[9:04] us were ashamed of the way we showed up
[9:06] because we thought the other was shaming
[9:07] us.
[9:08] And in fact, the opposite was true. So,
[9:12] if I look back at like my time in
[9:13] therapy long ago, or just how I deal
[9:16] with any
[9:18] any recollection now, I I spend a lot of
[9:21] time deliberately seizing that
[9:24] opportunity when a memory is open
[9:26] to reconsolidate it with something
[9:29] less
[9:30] painful. So,
[9:32] I thought, here's what I want to do on
[9:34] the gathering room today. I want to
[9:36] reconsolidate one of your memories,
[9:38] whoever you are.
[9:39] And
[9:41] um there's another study that I read
[9:44] that shows how we can do that. It's
[9:45] very, very simple.
[9:47] So,
[9:48] I would like you to remember something
[9:51] negative
[9:52] that has happened to you uh that that
[9:55] happened to you when you were a kid. Not
[9:56] something horrible, horrible, horrible,
[9:59] but something like
[10:01] um
[10:03] I don't know uh
[10:04] having a bad experience on vacation or
[10:07] having a bad experience with a friend or
[10:10] not doing well on something at school.
[10:12] You know, something that is not
[10:13] life-and-death horrific, but it in your
[10:16] memory when you go there it goes, "Ew,
[10:18] ouch, ow. That wasn't good." Okay?
[10:22] Now,
[10:23] once you've got that memory open, so
[10:26] just recall it
[10:28] for a few seconds. Remember what
[10:29] happened. It might feel like ew, a
[10:31] little squeamish about it. That's okay.
[10:33] That's why we're re-consolidating it.
[10:36] Now, what you have to do is tell me It's
[10:38] not You don't have to tell me. You're
[10:39] >> [laughter]
[10:40] >> You're in Czechoslovak
[10:42] the the Czech Republic. Oh my god, I am
[10:45] such a hot mess.
[10:47] Um
[10:49] what I'd like you to do is think for
[10:51] yourself about one good thing that you
[10:55] can trace to that experience.
[10:58] So,
[10:59] in my case, I go back to the experience
[11:02] with my friend, and I think, "What good
[11:05] thing came out of that?" Um
[11:08] all right. When I saw her again, I was
[11:11] up front with her because I wanted to
[11:13] talk about what I'd experienced. That
[11:14] was a good thing. It led me to memory
[11:16] re-consolidation.
[11:18] If I think about the time in the
[11:19] kitchen, I'm standing there going, "What
[11:21] is happening? I don't know what is
[11:22] happening."
[11:25] If I think about something good that
[11:27] came out of that experience, which is
[11:28] day before yesterday,
[11:30] first of all, I know now that meat needs
[11:32] to rest.
[11:34] Secondly, I know that it's impossible
[11:35] for a table full of vegetables to melt
[11:37] down into a tiny, tiny pile in a in a
[11:40] saucepan.
[11:42] And also
[11:45] Oh, I talked about it at dinner and
[11:47] Rowan and her mom both got really,
[11:49] really laughing. Like laughing very
[11:51] hard, so they had to lean over.
[11:54] >> [laughter]
[11:56] >> And that was delightful.
[11:58] So
[12:00] if you think about any little thing, and
[12:01] it could be like later I told a friend
[12:04] about it and I got
[12:07] comfort. Like somebody said, "Oh, that
[12:09] sucks that that happened to you." Or
[12:11] someone said, "Well, look at it this
[12:12] way." Or you were able to re-examine it
[12:16] and say, "Actually, I was kind of brave
[12:18] on that day. It wasn't so bad and I've
[12:20] been braver ever since, right?"
[12:22] Something like that. Anything. Any
[12:24] little thing.
[12:26] What's happening is that
[12:29] um
[12:30] there are biochemical
[12:33] signals that are actually churning up
[12:36] the proteins in your brain where that
[12:38] memory is stored and reconfiguring them
[12:41] into something different. They can
[12:43] actually watch this process. It is a
[12:45] physiological thing. It deconstructs the
[12:48] physical
[12:49] like scaffolding of the memory
[12:52] and then puts in the new experience and
[12:54] sews it back up again. So people who did
[12:56] this in an experiment where they wrote
[12:58] about something negative that happened
[13:00] one group wrote about something positive
[13:03] that came out of the negative
[13:04] experience, the other group did not.
[13:06] They just did the memory the same way.
[13:08] And after uh they had been tested, they
[13:12] all came back 2 months later
[13:15] and they found
[13:16] they had both groups describe their
[13:18] memories again and then they compared
[13:19] the two accounts. Sure enough, the
[13:21] people who thought of something positive
[13:23] that came out of the memory now
[13:25] remembered the memory as having positive
[13:27] aspects. It was literally a different
[13:30] memory. It wasn't the bad thing that
[13:32] happened when my family moved. It was
[13:35] the bad thing and also the good thing
[13:37] that happened when my family moved. So,
[13:39] you can see that having reconsolidated
[13:42] it and and if you reconsolidated a lot
[13:44] of memories that have negative charge,
[13:46] put something positive in them, you're
[13:48] actually walking around with a brain
[13:51] full of good experiences instead of a
[13:53] brain full of bad experiences.
[13:56] And it's the same brain and it's the
[13:58] same memories. You've just
[14:00] reconsolidated
[14:02] the emotional
[14:04] impact of these memories. And so they
[14:06] get lighter. And I really think if you
[14:08] went through all like we're all carrying
[14:10] around like a a big backpack full of
[14:13] like sledgehammers and other heavy
[14:16] things. Oh, the bad things that
[14:17] happened.
[14:18] And if we start taking them out one by
[14:20] one and saying, yes, but what good thing
[14:21] came of that? It's not just Pollyanna's
[14:24] smarminess. It is uh literally changing
[14:28] the
[14:29] construction of our brains
[14:32] and giving us a
[14:34] bedrock of something that was always
[14:36] more positive. And then you realize your
[14:39] interpretation of events
[14:41] really, really isn't
[14:44] closely adhering to the structure of the
[14:46] event. The facts that happened remain
[14:49] the same and no one questions them. But
[14:51] the emotional carryover, the
[14:53] psychological
[14:55] burden we carry away from them is
[14:57] fundamentally different after we cons-
[14:59] we reconstitute those. So, if a lot of
[15:02] bad things have happened to you, I am so
[15:03] sorry and
[15:05] you don't have to
[15:07] struggle with the heaviness of that in
[15:09] the same way it for the rest of your
[15:11] life. If you can reconsolidate the
[15:12] memories, you can turn them into
[15:14] something much airier, much more
[15:16] buoyant, maybe even something that will
[15:18] lift you up instead of dragging you
[15:20] down.
[15:21] So, as I said, I've spent a lot of my
[15:22] life doing this and I want to spend more
[15:24] now that I know memory reconsolidation
[15:27] theory.
[15:28] So,
[15:30] I mean, I don't know it deeply, but I
[15:32] know of it. And now you do, too. So,
[15:34] let's do our meditation, our space,
[15:37] silence, and stillness meditation,
[15:39] because it's from within space, silence,
[15:41] and stillness that we can re-examine a
[15:43] negative memory and see the positives
[15:46] that came out of it. But, that is not
[15:48] the meaning or purpose of the
[15:50] meditation. The meaning and purpose of
[15:52] the meditation is to get in touch with
[15:54] who we actually are, the being driving
[15:58] this changeable brain, and learning to
[16:01] use the machinery of it more effectively
[16:04] for our own joy.
[16:06] So, let's find the one who is doing all
[16:09] this activity.
[16:11] >> [sighs and gasps]
[16:11] >> You can start by getting comfortable,
[16:14] letting go of having to do anything for
[16:16] the next
[16:17] 20 minutes,
[16:19] and
[16:20] asking yourself the peculiar question,
[16:24] "Can I imagine the distance between my
[16:26] eyes?"
[16:35] "Can I imagine
[16:37] the distance between my eyes and the
[16:40] screen in front of me?
[16:44] Phone, computer, if there's no screen,
[16:46] whatever's in front of you.
[16:48] Can you imagine the space
[16:50] between your eyes and the thing they
[16:52] see?
[16:56] Can you imagine the distance between the
[16:58] top of your head
[17:00] and the base of your spine?
[17:06] Can you imagine in the space inside the
[17:09] molecules of your rib cage?
[17:14] Can you imagine the space in the atoms
[17:17] that make up your heart.
[17:22] Can you imagine the stillness in which
[17:25] your heart beats?
[17:28] The stillness in which your brain is
[17:30] moving and changing.
[17:35] The stillness that connects every one of
[17:38] us on this broadcast
[17:42] through space and time.
[17:45] The stillness unites us all.
[17:49] Can you imagine the silence
[17:52] beneath every sound on Earth?
[17:57] Beneath every sound in the universe.
[18:03] Can you imagine that your awareness
[18:05] extends through the
[18:07] the space, the silence, and the
[18:09] stillness
[18:12] to connect with each other being in the
[18:14] universe?
[18:18] Can you imagine that the universe
[18:22] is loving you back?
[18:30] And of course, you don't ever have to
[18:31] answer those questions. They are just
[18:34] meant to prime the brain to wonder
[18:36] because it's wonder that takes us into
[18:39] things
[18:40] knowing that they aren't stable, knowing
[18:42] that they aren't rigid, knowing that we
[18:44] can literally change our past even if we
[18:47] don't try to change what happened.
[18:50] So, let's do some questions here.
[18:54] Question, is it more powerful to revisit
[18:56] memories in the first or third person?
[19:00] I haven't read anything about that, but
[19:02] I would guess in the first person. I
[19:04] would guess that the first person is
[19:05] more powerful. Oh, that is not the way
[19:07] it happened to me. The way it happened
[19:09] to me is this good thing came out of it
[19:11] as well.
[19:13] Question, what if nothing good came out
[19:15] of it?
[19:17] Hmm.
[19:18] It's very interesting. I've had many
[19:21] situations in my life where initially I
[19:24] could literally see nothing good coming
[19:27] out of it, where it was going to destroy
[19:29] my life, and it actually did.
[19:31] Um
[19:33] when my son was diagnosed with Down
[19:35] syndrome, when I started having
[19:37] flashbacks of childhood abuse.
[19:40] Um both those events um trashed my life,
[19:44] the life I had at that time.
[19:48] But the life I subsequently created,
[19:52] due in part to those difficult
[19:54] circumstances, has brought me where I am
[19:57] here. Um
[19:59] I'm not going to be so pushy as to say
[20:01] that your experiences all had good
[20:04] things that came out of them.
[20:06] But you are still obviously on your feet
[20:09] and thinking,
[20:11] on your feet and able to wonder.
[20:14] So,
[20:16] even if it's Nietzsche's dictum that
[20:19] that that which does not kill us makes
[20:20] us strong,
[20:22] if you got nothing more than endurance
[20:23] out of it, that's still something.
[20:26] And the the goal here is not to think of
[20:29] something that redeemed all the
[20:30] negativity of that. The goal is to think
[20:32] of one tiny thing connected to that. For
[20:35] example,
[20:36] I was never that naive again.
[20:39] I learned to discern when people had,
[20:43] you know, negative intentions. I became
[20:47] more sensitive. I became more aware of
[20:50] danger, anything. The idea is to add any
[20:54] positive element you can think of. And
[20:55] here's the thing about the human
[20:56] imagination, it really is limitless.
[21:00] I had to go a really long way to imagine
[21:03] anything good that would come out of my
[21:05] my diagnosis.
[21:07] I know that that seems really childish
[21:09] to me now, but I was only 24 and it was
[21:12] I was pretty childish. And I had to
[21:16] start taking into account things like,
[21:18] "Huh, I've been having like some
[21:21] interesting metaphysical experiences
[21:25] since this pregnancy began. There's
[21:26] something going on here I don't
[21:27] understand. Maybe the whole materialist
[21:29] view of the world is not accurate. Maybe
[21:32] I can throw away the whole Western world
[21:34] view and think about
[21:37] um perfection is something utterly
[21:39] different than anything I've ever heard
[21:40] about." It was a long trip mentally. Um
[21:45] but I'm sure happy I did it.
[21:47] And now it seems ridiculous. It's like
[21:49] so much good came out of it and I can't
[21:51] believe I didn't see it at the time.
[21:52] Again, I'm not trying to push that on
[21:54] your experience, but I am saying
[21:56] there've been a lot of times when I
[21:57] didn't think that I could come up with
[21:59] anything. And it turned out that there
[22:01] was just
[22:02] this cornucopia of wonderful things that
[22:04] came out of it along with enormous pain.
[22:08] Don't get me wrong, it hurt.
[22:11] Question.
[22:12] I've also had this experience, but I
[22:14] didn't know what it was called. I could
[22:16] only do this after years of therapy
[22:17] working through the hurt, trauma, and
[22:19] grief. Is it safe to say therapy should
[22:21] precede this?
[22:23] Um
[22:25] I think it is therapy.
[22:27] I think it's the essence of therapy to
[22:29] remember something with a therapist or
[22:31] maybe a group of people in the room
[22:33] and have them validate you um in a way
[22:35] that and give you a perspective you may
[22:37] not have had at the time. So it
[22:39] introduces something different into the
[22:40] memory right there.
[22:43] I don't think you could go far wrong by
[22:47] if something if you're haunted by a
[22:48] memory to say
[22:51] "Let me see if I can think of something
[22:53] that was a blessing that came from this.
[22:55] Some kind of
[22:57] depth or transcendence or lucky break or
[23:00] decision I made that led to something
[23:02] good because of this,
[23:04] I don't think that that is going to harm
[23:07] you before you get therapy. Plus, not
[23:09] everybody can afford therapy or has
[23:11] access to a good therapist. But, I
[23:13] really think if you write in a journal
[23:16] the things that happened to you, first
[23:17] of all, they've shown James Pennebaker's
[23:20] work shows that people who just write
[23:21] down negative experiences, even if it
[23:24] brings up pain in the moment, have
[23:26] significant lasting positive effects on
[23:28] their well-being.
[23:30] And if you say, "Okay, here's this
[23:32] negative thing that happened." and then
[23:34] go back to your journal and think, "What
[23:36] What good came of that? What good came
[23:38] of that?" Uh I really would suggest
[23:40] journaling as a way to deal with this
[23:41] for those two reasons, that writing it
[23:44] down helps and then it gives you a
[23:46] little bit of a record so that you can
[23:48] go back and say,
[23:49] "Oh, I was so crushed that my high
[23:51] school boyfriend dumped me,
[23:53] but without that, I never would have
[23:55] been in the relationship I'm in today."
[23:57] You know, like you can see things in
[23:59] hindsight. Um
[24:01] and I don't think that you're going to
[24:03] destroy yourself that way. I don't think
[24:05] it requires a professional to help you
[24:08] see that something good came out of
[24:10] something really terrible.
[24:12] Okay.
[24:14] Question, I can't think of anything good
[24:15] about that day at school with the bully.
[24:17] Just keep digging? Well, for example,
[24:20] have you ever been more compassionate to
[24:21] other people who have been bullied? Have
[24:24] you had more um
[24:25] Have you felt more um activated when
[24:29] other people are being bullied so that
[24:31] you've taken political action like
[24:32] voting for a person that you thought
[24:34] would help? In other words, are you more
[24:36] aware? You can start looking at things
[24:38] like that because one of the first gifts
[24:40] given us by trauma and negative
[24:42] socialization is the gift of empathy.
[24:45] And when we're lost in the it shouldn't
[24:47] have happened, it was terrible, those
[24:49] things are true. It shouldn't have
[24:51] happened, it was terrible. Yeah, I I
[24:52] completely agree. Nobody Nobody should
[24:54] have done that to you. But,
[24:58] even before you can find a lot of
[25:00] positives yourself, you can see how it
[25:02] changed you into a a kinder, more
[25:04] compassionate person. And if it didn't
[25:06] make you a more compassionate person,
[25:07] maybe it made you tough. You know, like
[25:09] there's almost always if you kept
[25:11] living,
[25:13] you took something away from that
[25:14] experience, and it might have been
[25:16] wounding, but I just don't believe it's
[25:18] nothing but the capacity to be wounded
[25:21] and wounded and wounded. I think the
[25:23] only reason we're alive after those
[25:25] experiences
[25:26] is to be able to start making meaning of
[25:30] it. And you know, when I was in high
[25:32] school and I read Victor Frankl,
[25:34] um who
[25:36] in the
[25:38] death camps in Germany started composing
[25:41] in his head the book Man's Search for
[25:43] Meaning.
[25:44] When I started reading how he had
[25:46] brought the search for meaning into his
[25:48] experience at Auschwitz,
[25:50] I started thinking, yeah, that's that's
[25:53] pretty impressive finding
[25:55] you know, something positive in
[25:57] something that
[25:59] unfathomably
[26:00] horrible. And yet there was Victor
[26:02] Frankl
[26:04] setting out to do it, and he has changed
[26:06] the world with that book and with his
[26:08] other books and his other work.
[26:10] Yeah, the It's some people it seems the
[26:13] worst the worst the world treats them,
[26:16] the more incredibly heroically they rise
[26:18] to help others and themselves.
[26:21] So, yeah, keep digging.
[26:22] How to stop the fear? Or as Liz This is
[26:24] the next question. As Liz Gilbert said
[26:26] the other day, the terror. It's often
[26:28] unfounded and it feels like armor. Yeah.
[26:31] Um when you're in terror,
[26:34] uh you're probably rewinding a memory of
[26:38] and replaying a memory of terror without
[26:42] reconsolidating it. And it can go over
[26:45] and over and over again and just
[26:47] dig the same tracks in your brain. And
[26:49] actually, each time you think about it,
[26:50] it'll get wrapped with myelin again, and
[26:53] it will feel more convincing. But, if
[26:55] you bring in
[26:57] that tiny bit of positive, and I I love
[27:00] to I love to cite this example because
[27:02] Liz Gilbert, before she wrote her
[27:04] world-changing memoir Eat, Pray, Love,
[27:06] that sold 30 million copies, was in a
[27:09] place that felt like there was nothing
[27:11] good about it. Nothing.
[27:13] And the only tiny thread of hope she had
[27:15] was that she wanted to learn Italian.
[27:18] And that little impulse turned into this
[27:21] incredible memoir that was so wonderful.
[27:24] And
[27:25] you think she wasn't terrified? She was
[27:27] terrified.
[27:28] I've had it personally confirmed to me.
[27:31] She was terrified. But, when she looked
[27:34] back in that memoir, she said, "Here's
[27:35] the good that came out of it. Here's the
[27:37] tiny little thread of joy in it,
[27:39] Italian." And from there came this
[27:41] amazing um artistic career, really. So,
[27:46] I'm glad you brought up that example.
[27:48] Final question.
[27:49] Um Oh, this is a summary from Ro, uh is
[27:53] saying, "A lot of questions from people
[27:54] saying I can't find anything positive in
[27:57] my experience." Okay.
[27:59] So, I know we're at time.
[28:01] But, I would love you to read a book
[28:04] called Left to Tell
[28:07] by Immaculée Ilibagiza. Look up Left to
[28:10] Tell. This is a woman who survived the
[28:13] genocide in Rwanda,
[28:15] hidden in a secret bathroom in a
[28:18] preacher's house with five other women,
[28:21] I believe it was, tiny, tiny, tiny room.
[28:23] They were in there for the 100 days war,
[28:25] the whole 100 days. They barely ate.
[28:28] Um they were in constant terror for
[28:30] their lives.
[28:32] And it is the most
[28:34] redemptive, joyful, grateful piece of
[28:37] work. When I read that Victor Frankl's
[28:40] work, Immaculée Ilibagiza's work, the
[28:43] the experiences of people, Nelson
[28:45] Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom, all the
[28:46] these people have gone through literal
[28:50] hell
[28:51] and they are finding a way. She says in
[28:55] in that book Immaculée Ilibagiza says
[28:59] that one day she decided she was going
[29:00] to learn English and she said, "I felt
[29:02] like the luckiest person."
[29:04] And she's still in that bathroom. Like
[29:07] talk about finding something positive to
[29:09] say.
[29:10] And um I gave that book to someone I
[29:12] know who doesn't see the good in things
[29:14] saying, "Look at this." And she said,
[29:16] "Well, of course she was lucky enough to
[29:17] have that experience." And I was like,
[29:20] "You're not seeing this.
[29:22] It was horrible. There was nothing lucky
[29:24] about it. But there is something about
[29:26] her that is the creativity of the
[29:28] storyteller that has decided to
[29:30] reconciliate a memory and thereby change
[29:33] a truly
[29:35] horrifying past
[29:37] into something illuminating.
[29:39] Wow.
[29:40] If people can do it, I think we can all
[29:44] do it. And it is a challenge and we
[29:46] don't set out to do it, but let's set
[29:48] out to do it today because we're not
[29:50] just going to change now and going
[29:51] forward, we're going to change
[29:53] everything we've ever experienced. And I
[29:55] know it can happen. I really do. So,
[29:58] good luck with that and I will see you
[30:00] again soon on the gathering room.