Transcript
[0:00] hi I'm Martha Beck and I'm Rowan Mangan
[0:02] and this is bewildered the podcast for
[0:04] people trying to figure it out and today
[0:07] we have a very special episode Mar oh
[0:11] y okay so this person I mean we like her
[0:14] a lot um but I doubt you have heard of
[0:18] her she's uh she's one of those low
[0:20] energy people who never achieves much
[0:22] and uh is really trying so hard to
[0:24] figure it out and uh once entered a
[0:27] state fair in every single event offered
[0:31] and was given a special ribbon called
[0:34] most in show guys this person is the
[0:38] opposite of the one I've just described
[0:40] this is the
[0:42] incredible the unconquerable I'm running
[0:44] out of adjectives Liz
[0:48] Gil Hi Li
[0:51] hi
[0:53] hi it's so good to see you guys I love
[0:55] you so much we all just in through the
[0:58] winters of covid we would just sort
[1:01] of Liz came over and would sit by the
[1:03] fireplace because she assured us I grew
[1:06] up in the country all the air gets
[1:07] sucked up the chimney I can't infect you
[1:10] it's true I thought it was just one of
[1:12] your clever rses well also I had a mask
[1:14] on and also you were the only thing I
[1:17] missed during the pandemic about the
[1:19] world being shut was coming over to your
[1:21] house so I had to be mask myself and
[1:24] come and sit by you you are wonderful so
[1:26] then we'd all just end up cuddling yeah
[1:29] oh boy that went
[1:31] yeah that's what we did I mean let's be
[1:34] honest yeah we we cuddled a lot because
[1:37] that's the natural way and the nature
[1:39] culture culture says you don't have your
[1:41] friends come over and cuddle with you
[1:43] but we say that's our nature we're
[1:45] cuddling yes exactly cuddly culture is
[1:47] wrong on that one so today we're going
[1:51] to ask Liz Gilbert what she's trying to
[1:54] figure out and we'll talk about what the
[1:56] culture is says about that and then we
[1:59] will have a conclusion conclusion so
[2:03] what I love conclusion conclusion I'm in
[2:07] self-help mode book writing mode you
[2:09] have to tell everybody what's going to
[2:11] happen on every page no seriously what
[2:15] is Liz Gilbert trying to figure out well
[2:18] well I first of all thank you very much
[2:20] for inviting me to your
[2:22] house thank you very much for inviting
[2:24] yourself to our podcast yes that's what
[2:26] I did I said you you guys can I come and
[2:28] play on your podcast because that's the
[2:29] other thing we we cuddle and we play um
[2:32] and this is play time so well I I want
[2:35] to talk about trying to figure out why
[2:38] culture is so incredibly hostile to the
[2:43] idea of single childless women and um
[2:47] and especially single childish women
[2:49] childless women also childish just
[2:52] showing I'm not childish I'm childlike
[2:54] okay let's just get that right right
[2:56] they're two different things um
[2:59] especially hostile to women who are
[3:02] single and childless by choice there's
[3:04] there's there's there's pity and
[3:06] compassion and great sorrow available to
[3:08] women who are childless and single um
[3:11] alone but uh because they couldn't help
[3:13] it or wanted something else but but to
[3:15] choose that as a path um is is met by
[3:19] culture with hostility at the worst like
[3:22] way past bewilderment just just um yeah
[3:26] rage blame um disgust contempt and and
[3:30] I'm trying to figure out why that is the
[3:32] case because I am single and child
[3:35] childish I'm just GNA keep saying it
[3:37] childless by choice and it's so good um
[3:42] it's so deeply good and enjoyable and
[3:45] rich and full and I also have created a
[3:48] life where I my family are my friends
[3:50] and that's also something that culture
[3:52] does not approve of so um that's what
[3:54] I'm here to discuss with you beautiful
[3:57] human beings today so I am curious like
[3:59] you've you've had these experiences of
[4:02] of people coming at you that way like
[4:05] what's a specific time that it happened
[4:07] like um I was okay well this one this
[4:11] one is funny haha it was at Rey's
[4:15] funeral and uh a relative of mine was an
[4:19] older female relative of mine was in the
[4:21] room with me and with a number of my
[4:23] friends who had come to support me rehea
[4:24] was my partner who was your friend also
[4:26] who died several years ago and right
[4:28] before the funeral they were all
[4:30] gathered together and and this older
[4:32] female relative of mine was with us and
[4:34] she said something about how she had so
[4:37] admired um that Barbara Bush that's
[4:41] already a sentence that's like you don't
[4:42] hear a lot she had so admired that
[4:45] Barbara Bush had and her would was given
[4:47] the commencement speech at Vasser once
[4:49] and she said all of this is wonderful
[4:50] that you're all getting this education
[4:52] but you'll find in life that there is
[4:53] nothing more important or precious to
[4:55] you than having a family and she got
[4:58] some Kickback from that even even 30
[5:01] years ago or however long it was that
[5:02] she did it and and I said well I can see
[5:04] why people might have been you know
[5:06] those young hardworking Scholars might
[5:09] have been like huh um to that you know
[5:11] and uh and and this relative of mine
[5:13] said well it's true there's um a life
[5:16] without children is is pointless and I
[5:20] looked around and I was with four of my
[5:22] friends none of us had children oh my
[5:24] God and I and I said well I guess our
[5:26] lives are pointless you guys and I just
[5:29] started laughing because I was looking
[5:31] at these incredible women in my life and
[5:33] their lives were so extraordinary and
[5:35] they and they were so wonder I mean it's
[5:38] not even like they were all like super
[5:40] famous heavily accomplished whatever
[5:41] they were just extraordinary people you
[5:45] know whose lives were so full and so
[5:47] rich and I thought man this just doesn't
[5:49] go away this this really thick deep idea
[5:54] um that that that's that there's no
[5:57] other reason to live um as a woman and I
[5:59] bought into that
[6:00] um I bought into that as a young person
[6:03] and I went out and got myself married as
[6:05] fast as I could and went on the track to
[6:06] have kids but then something in my body
[6:09] and my being just refused to allow it
[6:12] and um and I went into a full mental
[6:14] physical and psychological breakdown
[6:15] those of you who have already Pray Love
[6:17] or seen the movie know what happened
[6:19] next um because I simply couldn't do it
[6:21] it's like there was almost like I was
[6:23] wired in a way that I could not do it
[6:25] even though the culture had told me to
[6:26] do it oh thank God I couldn't do it and
[6:29] I thought there was something so wrong
[6:30] with me because I kept having nervous
[6:33] breakdowns instead of having children
[6:35] and um and then when I gave that up my
[6:38] life got better and better and better
[6:41] and anyway so that's what that's what
[6:42] we're here to discuss so L what do you
[6:45] think is going on if the culture is
[6:48] saying your life is pointless if you
[6:50] don't have children or have a family in
[6:53] that conventional sense yeah what's
[6:55] what's behind that like what's what's
[6:57] going on because we know that the
[6:59] culture is kind of always got an agenda
[7:01] yeah yeah so what's happening behind the
[7:03] scenes when women are being told that so
[7:06] glad you asked um I actually wrote about
[7:09] this a lot in my book committed because
[7:10] I was looking into that exact question
[7:13] so before I answer that I have to tell
[7:15] you that the culture there are cases
[7:17] where you can say like well that's
[7:19] opinion and cultures have opinions and
[7:21] people have
[7:22] opinions here's the thing the culture is
[7:24] actually wrong on this and and all
[7:28] sociological studies there's something
[7:29] that it's called the marriage benefit
[7:31] and balance puzzle which I'm sure you've
[7:33] heard about Mar but it's bewildered um
[7:36] I'm just plugging the podcast when I say
[7:38] bewildered I'm going to use that word as
[7:39] much as I can um it is bewildered
[7:42] sociologists forever because there is
[7:45] this incredible um drop that happens in
[7:48] the quality of a woman's life when she
[7:50] gets married and it is across every
[7:53] single aspect of her life her financial
[7:55] life will plummet her physical health
[7:57] plummets She Will on average gain 10
[7:59] pounds within a few years her her her
[8:02] life expectancy goes down uh her chances
[8:05] of getting murdered Skyrocket her
[8:08] chances of committing suicide Skyrocket
[8:10] depression Rises anxiety Rises and and
[8:13] if you the more children you add to that
[8:15] the worse it gets right so literally in
[8:18] every single measurement that you can
[8:20] use to measure the quality of a human
[8:22] being's life statistically there is not
[8:26] one single place in which it shows that
[8:30] married women do better than single
[8:31] women married hetro women yeah married
[8:33] hetro women and I don't know the studies
[8:35] on and I've and I asked that and
[8:37] committed too because I was like I
[8:38] wonder what happens when two it probably
[8:39] just becomes really qu but I also
[8:41] whatever I'm not gonna get into that
[8:42] it's not my world so first of all I just
[8:44] want to say it's it's the culture is
[8:47] telling you a story that is simply it's
[8:49] not just an opinion it's simply not true
[8:51] you will take 10 years off your life
[8:53] expectancy immediately as a heterosexual
[8:55] Woman by getting married just right off
[8:57] the bat you know it's it's crazy so
[8:59] there's something happening what is
[9:01] happening you know what's being sold
[9:03] yeah Marty I know these studies yeah and
[9:05] I don't know if it's the same but what
[9:09] the bit you left out is that after
[9:10] marriage a man assists heter man his
[9:13] quality of life rocket way skyrockets
[9:17] every single thing that happens to a
[9:19] woman is given to a man so she loses 10
[9:21] years of of her life expectancy he gains
[9:24] her health goes down his health goes up
[9:27] her rates of addiction alcoholism
[9:28] suicide and murder possibility go down
[9:31] his he soures her work her career tanks
[9:34] his sores there's no better thing a man
[9:37] can do than hitch himself to a woman y
[9:40] so and there's no worse thing a woman
[9:41] can do statistically than put it and
[9:43] this is what makes me so crazy about
[9:45] literally every single romantic story
[9:46] we're told is the opposite of that it's
[9:49] like it makes me mental when I watch
[9:51] romcoms and the whole theme of it is a
[9:54] man running away from getting trapped
[9:55] into a marriage and a woman running
[9:57] toward this thing that she wants so much
[9:59] when fact it should be the opposite the
[10:01] woman should be running screaming away
[10:04] and the man should be running toward her
[10:06] begging to make his life a million times
[10:08] better because that's what's actually
[10:09] going to happen oh my go you know
[10:11] statistically obviously there are
[10:12] anomalies within this but this is like
[10:14] this is shown and study after study and
[10:15] it hasn't changed over the decades no so
[10:18] so first of all there's there's this
[10:20] incredible Central lie right so who
[10:23] benefits from this lie aha well it could
[10:26] be like the patriarchy right like it
[10:29] could be the men whose lives get so much
[10:31] better when a woman is attached to them
[10:33] you know um and it's also
[10:36] culturally cultures okay this is
[10:39] especially in a culture like an American
[10:41] culture which is all about individualism
[10:43] where the culture and the society does
[10:44] not take care of its citizens and it
[10:46] doesn't want to it doesn't want to spend
[10:48] money on that it wants to spend money on
[10:50] the military right so it wants the
[10:52] citizens to take care of themselves
[10:54] right because that's what benefits the
[10:56] capitalist Market is like if everybody
[10:58] takes care of themselves don't have to
[11:00] pay for healthare we don't have to pay
[11:01] for education and the best way to create
[11:04] building blocks of culture where the
[11:05] building blocks take care of themselves
[11:08] is to have a woman taking care of that
[11:09] block yeah right so you bring a woman in
[11:12] you create a family around her she will
[11:14] make sure that those children get
[11:15] educated she will make sure that those
[11:17] children get Dentistry she will make
[11:19] sure that that husband goes to his job
[11:21] and if she does all of that then the
[11:23] culture doesn't have to do it right so
[11:27] what happens is that our entire capital
[11:30] cultural huge success American dream is
[11:32] built upon those women doing that
[11:35] individually one household at a time
[11:37] which is why they die younger which is
[11:39] why they commit suicide which is why
[11:41] they strug struggle with depression and
[11:43] anxiety and and can't get through the
[11:45] day because they're holding up something
[11:47] that in a healthy culture would be
[11:49] shared yeah I did my PhD dissertation on
[11:52] this how the basically all men are
[11:55] created equal was written by a white
[11:58] property owning male who never thought
[12:00] to call include women people of color
[12:03] anybody except himself in and those men
[12:06] who matched him that they were all equal
[12:09] but all the work of the society had to
[12:11] be oh I think we better enslave about
[12:14] millions of people and drag them back
[12:16] here to do the actual work then when it
[12:19] was illegal to force a person of color
[12:21] to do what everything you wanted for
[12:23] free women were the only ones left to do
[12:26] the work of households the care the
[12:29] feeding the loving the healing of every
[12:32] little kid every old person women took
[12:35] that all upon themselves and then at a
[12:37] key Point feminism came out and said
[12:41] yeah you can do this and also do a job
[12:43] that was created for a single for a
[12:45] married man who has a full-time free
[12:47] domestic support staff and so now women
[12:51] were trying to do it both this was in
[12:53] the 80s when I was trying to do
[12:54] everything and somebody went to Gloria
[12:56] steum and said this is not workable I
[13:00] have to do everything that a huge
[13:04] household of servants would once have
[13:06] done and do the job my husband is doing
[13:09] and somehow make all this work why
[13:11] didn't you tell us it would be this way
[13:14] and Gloria steum looked at her and said
[13:16] we didn't
[13:17] know because the culture makes it so
[13:20] mind blind okay this favorite
[13:23] stump every person going into freshman
[13:27] near at Harvard drink um
[13:31] was required to read or asked to read
[13:34] Walden by Henry David thorough and it's
[13:37] about this guy goes to this Pond and he
[13:39] just communes with nature for a whole
[13:41] year to show that nature takes care of
[13:43] you and everything is fine and it's this
[13:45] classic of the isolated Woodsman out
[13:47] there he does not mention that every day
[13:50] his mother and sisters brought clean
[13:53] laundry and food cleaned the house took
[13:55] away his dirty laundry and dirty dishes
[13:57] and then came back back the next day
[13:59] what
[14:00] you just assume that's going to happen
[14:02] right like that's not that's not a human
[14:04] doing that it's a woman it's that's what
[14:06] they do it's like the sun rising they
[14:08] just come wash your clothes sorry if I
[14:11] sound a little bitter well
[14:14] spotted yeah so yeah and I was on that
[14:17] track in my first marriage I mean I was
[14:19] supporting us and I was working really
[14:21] hard and I was putting a meal in front
[14:22] of that man every single night and
[14:25] picking up his underwear and I was
[14:27] enraged and I was like what am I I was
[14:29] about to have a kid and we bought a
[14:30] house with a nursery in it like I had I
[14:32] was on that track wow but what it took
[14:35] for me to get off that track was to
[14:37] almost commit suicide and have to be
[14:39] hospitalized like I was in so much I
[14:41] mean that's the lowest I've ever been in
[14:42] my life it's the most psychological
[14:44] despair that I was ever in the despair
[14:47] was what's wrong with me yeah that I am
[14:51] not fulfilled and satisfied by this
[14:53] model I am a terrible person I am a
[14:58] selfish person I am a broken person and
[15:00] it never occurred to me to be like
[15:02] what's wrong with culture that this is
[15:06] what I was taught is the thing when it's
[15:09] horrible and you know what that had her
[15:12] hand up too sorry sorry I have a comment
[15:16] after's got her hand up Roy in the back
[15:21] row back row with the cool
[15:24] kids we'll be right back with more
[15:26] bewildered I have a favor to ask you you
[15:29] might not know this but ratings and
[15:31] reviews are like gold in the podcasting
[15:34] Universe they get podcasts in front of
[15:37] more faces more eyes more ears all the
[15:40] bits that you could have a podcast in
[15:42] front of that's what they do so it would
[15:44] help us enormously if you would consider
[15:47] going over to your favorite podcasting
[15:50] app especially if it's apple and giving
[15:54] us a few Stars maybe even five maybe
[15:58] even six if you can find a way to hack
[16:00] the system I wouldn't complain and um a
[16:03] review would also be wonderful we read
[16:05] them all and love them so thank you very
[16:08] much in advance let's just go out there
[16:10] and bewilder the world
[16:14] Mah on the podcast we we we kind of try
[16:18] to point towards or figure out figure it
[16:21] out where what the culture is doing
[16:24] because it's often quite subtle and that
[16:26] its effect on us is often quite subtle
[16:29] but but when we talk about like how do
[16:31] you go from the consensus which was
[16:33] sending you down that path right to
[16:35] coming to your own coming to your senses
[16:38] you didn't have a choice like why do you
[16:41] think your system was like absolutely
[16:45] not because I'm sure that there's so
[16:47] many women listening to this who are
[16:50] like I wish I'd had as big a red flag
[16:54] going into it cuz now it's 30 years
[16:56] later and I went all the way down that
[16:59] path
[17:00] I think that I am very lucky to have a
[17:03] very low tolerance for
[17:05] pain and I'm not kidding about that I
[17:07] think the more you can tolerate pain the
[17:10] longer you can stay in a system that is
[17:13] painful yeah that's my and um yeah you I
[17:16] mean you know and and the women in my
[17:20] The ancestral women in my family have
[17:22] Limitless tolerance for pain um they can
[17:25] take anything they can absorb anything
[17:28] they can come over any disappointment
[17:31] they can be neglected they can be so
[17:33] neglected and find a way to still wake
[17:36] up the next morning and do it again they
[17:38] can be so melt treated and still find a
[17:40] way my saving I've never thought of this
[17:43] before but my Saving Grace was that I am
[17:46] over
[17:47] sensitive um and so I'm a little bit of
[17:50] a canary in the coal mine right and now
[17:52] the thing that I've realized at at at a
[17:54] couple days I'll be 53 but now the
[17:56] wonderful thing I've realized is that
[17:58] the second I feel like oh no this is not
[18:03] this is awful like this is a
[18:05] navigational system yes um that I now
[18:07] really am grateful that I have I get out
[18:10] of things really quickly now you know
[18:12] like I get out of relationships with
[18:14] people really quickly I back away from
[18:15] things really quickly that don't feel
[18:17] right to me so what was happening when I
[18:20] was 30 um when I had my 30-year crisis
[18:23] my 30 crisis because I was supposed I
[18:25] promised my husband that I would we'd
[18:26] have kids when I was 30 and I instead I
[18:29] would
[18:29] was starving myself to death throwing up
[18:33] anything I tried to eat every part of my
[18:35] body broke down I had carpal tunnel
[18:37] syndrome my knees were I mean I was
[18:38] having physiological just meltdown like
[18:41] I was turning into a crazy woman I I
[18:43] called myself media which is ironic
[18:46] because was media du kill her kids
[18:47] anyway um but I was like literally
[18:50] pacing the halls of this beautiful
[18:51] Suburban house all night freaking out
[18:53] like a caged animal right and I didn't
[18:56] want to be I took as many anti
[18:59] depressants and anti- anxieties as I
[19:00] could to make that stop but my natural
[19:04] sensitivity was so huge because I'm
[19:07] super sensitive that I was going to die
[19:11] if I stayed right and something Glennon
[19:13] Doyle said to me the first time we ever
[19:14] met was I wonder why a woman has to
[19:16] almost die before she'll let herself
[19:18] change her life Wow you know um I'm not
[19:20] like that anymore I make changes very
[19:21] quickly without having to nearly die um
[19:24] but I also I was this weird combination
[19:26] of this highly sensitive and I was an
[19:28] artist
[19:29] you know so my work was creativity and
[19:32] like my life was destroying me you know
[19:34] um so my sensitivity goes into my
[19:36] creativity and it works but it went into
[19:37] my household and I'm like what's going
[19:39] on this is a nightmare you know um but
[19:42] um yeah so I think that I was lucky that
[19:45] I'm overly sensitive because I think if
[19:47] I were tougher and stronger and I could
[19:50] just stuff it and stuff it and mask it
[19:53] and muffle it and you know do whatever I
[19:55] had to do to get through it I would have
[19:57] I would have done what so many people do
[19:59] which is just I got a letter once the
[20:01] weirdest hate mail Ever After Eat Pray
[20:03] Love came out and the first line was
[20:05] you don't think I hate my marriage
[20:08] you know and it was this letter
[20:10] attacking me for leaving like I hate
[20:12] every minute of my marriage I hate being
[20:14] a mother I hate all this but you
[20:17] don't see me running away to Italy and I
[20:18] was like well good for you you found you
[20:21] found a way to stay I couldn't yeah yeah
[20:25] I'm the same way I was yeah I I went
[20:28] deeper into it than you did um but when
[20:31] I was trying to be a good Mormon wife
[20:33] you want you want some oppression I
[20:36] always say that the only thing the
[20:38] Mormons ask from their women is that
[20:40] that they breed well in captivity so I
[20:42] was going down that path and my whole
[20:44] body fell apart and I was like and I had
[20:46] three kids and I was like I could not
[20:48] move my hands I couldn't like I couldn't
[20:51] type yeah I couldn't either I a writer
[20:52] and I couldn't like and and I had
[20:54] doctors telling me you need wrist
[20:55] surgery you need knee surgery you've got
[20:58] an intestinal issue you've got like all
[21:00] of the stuff but it was actually just a
[21:02] full body every atom of my being in
[21:04] Rebellion saying we will kill you before
[21:07] we let you do this thing and I and I I
[21:10] actually I'm a very spiritual person I
[21:12] actually think that that was I think
[21:14] that the god of my understanding will do
[21:15] whatever it has to do to me to get me
[21:18] back on the right path that I'm supposed
[21:19] to be on and it's like I'm gonna I don't
[21:22] know how else to get your attention
[21:23] exactly to tell you not this not this
[21:26] not this but I was also in I'm a I'm a
[21:30] really Cooperative I like to make
[21:34] everybody happy I'm a Cooperative
[21:36] pleasing sweet person so I felt so
[21:39] incred my my obedience was I mean my
[21:42] obedience was look I I got married at 24
[21:44] and I worked hard and I bought a house
[21:46] and I have a husband I'm gonna have a
[21:47] kid and the Disobedience that I felt by
[21:50] breaking that was where my depression
[21:52] came from well I think you know it's
[21:54] interesting be because like Eat Pray
[21:57] Love was such a phenomenon like the
[22:00] Bible hasn't sold as many copies as Eat
[22:03] Pray Love and and then you've talked
[22:05] about how people who swear e Pray Love
[22:08] changed my life they they didn't read
[22:10] committed and I think it's because women
[22:14] have been got have gotten to this level
[22:16] of or had gotten to this level of
[22:18] suppression it's like the feminist
[22:20] Elizabeth Katie Stanton said um women
[22:23] have been systematically disadvantaged
[22:25] in the polity the legal legal system and
[22:31] uh what was the other one money money
[22:35] law politics that was it and she said my
[22:38] way of my mission in life is to and I
[22:42] thought she would say ease the burden
[22:44] but she didn't she said my mission is to
[22:46] deepen this disappointment in the hearts
[22:48] of women until they will suffer it no
[22:50] longer wow yeah and so that's where you
[22:53] got and I really think I mean tell me
[22:55] where I'm wrong here but the fact that
[22:57] that book here so hard and had so much
[23:01] influence is precisely because you were
[23:04] expressing what it's like to experience
[23:06] that your soul rebelling against the
[23:09] whole archetype of what you were
[23:10] supposed to be as a woman I mean I think
[23:13] that's Eat Pray Love may just be you
[23:15] know the way you figured it out and it
[23:18] helped a ton of other women do do it as
[23:20] well and that's the because that's what
[23:22] you did on the bathroom floor if you
[23:23] haven't read Eat Pray Love two of you um
[23:27] there's a copy in your house a copy in
[23:29] your house yes all your friends have it
[23:31] just borrow it for the night whatever
[23:33] but uh when when Eat Pray Love came out
[23:37] there was so much of the problem that
[23:39] has no name and there was it was you
[23:44] coming to your nature on that bathroom
[23:46] floor the culture was pressing in on you
[23:48] from everywhere and you found your true
[23:50] nature at the center and it would
[23:53] not it would not you dis you deepened
[23:56] your disappointment until you will
[23:58] suffer it no longer and I think all 13
[24:03] million people got that book and were
[24:05] trying to read their way out of the
[24:07] cultural trap that is marriage and I
[24:10] think probably men as well as women
[24:11] probably more women but men as well it's
[24:14] not a pretty picture for anybody the
[24:16] man's going to some hideous office with
[24:18] a noose around his neck with nothing to
[24:20] do but try to make money that's not
[24:23] really a life
[24:25] so how do you like as of now you said
[24:28] you back away quicker you um stay in
[24:32] touch with your nature much more closely
[24:35] like for the people out there who are
[24:37] going oh my God the culture is pressing
[24:39] in on me and I I don't like it either
[24:41] and I don't want to get to the point
[24:42] where I kill myself I want to start
[24:44] taking steps here sorry the self-help
[24:47] off author so um like is there a method
[24:51] Did You Eat Pray Love was this huge
[24:54] cataclysmic thing and then you had to go
[24:56] around the world to find yourself and
[24:59] now like when during the pandemic for
[25:02] example you had to do it alone in a room
[25:05] that's easier there's still pressure
[25:07] though there's still pressure like
[25:08] online pressure and stuff yeah so how do
[25:12] do we help people go from that kind of
[25:16] consensus to their senses like what what
[25:20] is your methodology for staying in touch
[25:21] with the part that said I will not I
[25:24] have to feel it physically there's no
[25:27] other way for me um because because my
[25:29] mind has been so
[25:31] distorted um by trauma and culture that
[25:34] I don't my mind is is is really not to
[25:37] be trusted a lot of times you know I've
[25:40] it's in the groundwater I've drunk so
[25:41] many messages it was in the mother's
[25:43] milk it was in the uterine fluids it's
[25:45] like it's all all of it and so so I have
[25:49] to feel what I physically feel like and
[25:53] you've taught me a lot about this Marty
[25:54] and you talk a lot about this and um
[25:57] I've been given
[25:59] uh this navigational system which is
[26:01] this actual physical body yeah um and
[26:04] and I find it so interesting that when I
[26:06] was going through that depression and
[26:07] anxiety because I was like I don't want
[26:09] to be this person who blows up I didn't
[26:11] want to be the person who blew up
[26:13] culture I wanted to be approved of and
[26:15] happy and loved um so I go to a doctor
[26:18] and the doctor would give me medication
[26:19] that would make me not be able to feel
[26:21] my body right not be able to feel like
[26:24] anti-anxiety medication will Tamp that
[26:26] down so you can't feel it y right and
[26:28] that would make me be able to stay in
[26:31] the in the block you know that was so
[26:34] oppressive and
[26:36] so I no one go off your mids because of
[26:39] what she just said don't no no don't no
[26:41] I have I I have great respect for it and
[26:43] there were times when I needed it but I
[26:45] will also say this I used to be on a lot
[26:47] of medication and I'm not on any anymore
[26:48] so I just want to lay that out there
[26:50] yeah like and and again don't don't do
[26:52] anything Hasty but I I don't even take
[26:55] it Advil PM to go to sleep anymore like
[26:57] it's it's really
[27:00] because I'm navigating my life based on
[27:02] what it physically feels like um so when
[27:05] I meet people who make me feel
[27:07] physically
[27:09] uncomfortable I do not how does it have
[27:12] come into your body what is the sense of
[27:14] not comfortable that some people it
[27:15] lives for me um right below my sternum
[27:19] um and it's like right behind my sternum
[27:21] there's almost a line from there's
[27:22] actually there's different feelings that
[27:24] I can feel but but the but and I also
[27:27] feel it um my hands start to shake huh
[27:30] um and but I grew up my hands shook all
[27:32] the time because I had a lot of anxiety
[27:33] in the Family household there was a lot
[27:35] of you know a lot of tension so I was
[27:37] used to walking around with shaky hands
[27:38] as a child just for one moment let's
[27:40] just yeah you had so much anxiety as a
[27:43] child that you were more used to your
[27:45] hands shaking than not shaking totally
[27:47] my hands shook my entire childhood my
[27:49] stomach hurt my entire childhood that
[27:50] was the Baseline that was normal you
[27:52] know like it was a high pressure
[27:54] high-intensity household in a high
[27:56] pressure high-intensity culture wow so
[27:58] it just feels
[28:00] um yeah I I won't I won't St I'll
[28:04] discontinue and I'm really I've gotten
[28:06] so much more honest yeah you know I've
[28:08] I've I've aborted things with people
[28:11] where I've just said I have no
[28:14] intellectual defense for this I had a
[28:15] conversation with somebody recently who
[28:17] wanted to work with me and um and then I
[28:20] felt like no this is not like my body
[28:23] didn't feel right around this person and
[28:24] I said I have no intellectual defense
[28:27] for the what I'm about to tell you but
[28:29] my intuition is telling me that this is
[28:31] not going to work and I and I have a
[28:33] long history of showing that when I
[28:35] override my intuition it's going to be a
[28:37] disaster it's gonna be a disaster for me
[28:39] for you so I'm just going to discontinue
[28:40] this now and I can't even tell you why I
[28:42] be on that I love that and um yeah so
[28:45] when I I trust the I trust the body
[28:47] response now um and and I went to a
[28:49] doctor where I was going through
[28:51] premenopause and I went to a doctor who
[28:53] put me on a whole bunch of medication
[28:55] and he was and and after a month I was
[28:58] like like this isn't it you know like so
[29:00] part of it is trying stuff like you know
[29:03] I I put my body into a situation and I
[29:05] see is this the situation and after a
[29:08] little while or a long while my body's
[29:10] like nope and then I take it back out of
[29:13] the situation and I did the same thing
[29:15] to him I said look I'm not a scientist
[29:17] I'm not a medical doctor I have nothing
[29:19] to base this on other than that I have
[29:21] intuition but I guide My Life by
[29:22] intuition and this doesn't feel right so
[29:24] I'm not going to continue this path so
[29:27] um I'll find something
[29:30] else like it's interesting because I
[29:32] I've when working with clients I found
[29:34] that everybody has their own compass
[29:36] needle you know the way it shows up and
[29:39] yours shows up in your solar plexus is
[29:41] probably coming from the gut um how do
[29:43] you feel it row because I think we all
[29:46] have this like there's a warning that
[29:48] comes into the body when we're not in a
[29:51] safe space or with a safe person yeah
[29:53] mine's always anxiety similar to Leah's
[29:56] it's always anxiety and I'm I'm also
[29:59] very hyp sensitive and I didn't somehow
[30:03] I didn't like one of the things we come
[30:04] up against when we talk about this stuff
[30:06] is I didn't get as much culture in my
[30:09] mother's milk as a lot of people had and
[30:13] that was such a blessing for me because
[30:15] I've been saying no to things cuz I it
[30:18] made me feel weird for a long time yeah
[30:21] um and there are Advantage advantages
[30:24] and disadvantages to that for sure but
[30:26] yeah I go into a very physical state of
[30:30] anxiety that is not anything to do with
[30:33] my brain it doesn't it doesn't feel as
[30:35] though it's anything to do with my brain
[30:37] it's very high discomfort and it's been
[30:39] a lot I've had to do a lot of um
[30:42] forensic sort of analysis after the
[30:45] after the event of going oh because I
[30:49] wasn't meant to do that something was
[30:52] trying to stop you from doing something
[30:56] like and they're throwing everything at
[30:57] you to try to stop you from doing
[30:59] something that's not good for you right
[31:03] the thing that's right exactly for for
[31:05] me but Liz the thing that I always come
[31:08] back around to is then there's that
[31:10] moment and you say that you're now
[31:12] really good at doing it quickly but when
[31:14] you're not you know gaunt and suicidal
[31:19] and your body's not falling apart
[31:21] because you're listening there's
[31:23] something that you don't get and and
[31:25] that's the the my body's falling part I
[31:28] can't and so there's this courage I feel
[31:31] like that we all have to kind of find
[31:34] when we want to go back out of that
[31:36] empty room and say okay culture I'm not
[31:41] going to do that and I'm going to say
[31:43] it's because of my intuition which the
[31:45] culture will laugh at because intuition
[31:48] and capitalism don't know how to talk to
[31:51] each other and so where do you find the
[31:54] courage and how do you do that in a
[31:56] practical way the saying and getting the
[31:58] courage to say no oh what a good
[32:00] question Rie um so I also just want to
[32:03] share what my sematic opposite of the no
[32:08] feels like what yes feels like to me is
[32:10] a belly full of warm vanilla
[32:12] pudding and I actually have come to call
[32:15] it the vanilla pudding warmth of
[32:18] Serenity calm and peace when I'm where
[32:21] I'm supposed to be with the people that
[32:23] I'm supposed to be with doing what I'm
[32:25] supposed to be doing and by supposed to
[32:27] I don't mean any I I mean my my own
[32:31] original software program that that the
[32:34] Universe gave to me when it's doing what
[32:36] it's supposed to be doing it feels like
[32:37] I have I have a belly full of warm
[32:39] vanilla pudding it's feels like melted
[32:41] chocolate it's yeah it's it's oxy that's
[32:44] what oxytocin feels like I guess it's
[32:46] just um it's just yummy this feels yummy
[32:49] and the more I get of the warm vanilla
[32:51] pudding in my belly the less I'm willing
[32:53] to give it up um so when I'm when I say
[32:57] no to things now what I'm saying no to I
[33:00] don't I think of it as saying yes to
[33:01] warm vanilla pudding um so I have to if
[33:04] I'm G to have more warm vanilla pudding
[33:06] I have to say no to this thing um and
[33:08] I'll give you some examples so when the
[33:10] pandemic hit and we went into um into
[33:14] lockdown I I was living in warm vanilla
[33:17] pudding I I was like I and I I
[33:20] recognized that I don't want to be
[33:22] insensitive to the incredible pain and
[33:25] harm and death that people went through
[33:26] with the pandemic but in my case being
[33:29] shut into a house having everything in
[33:31] your life canel I mean I I had 18 months
[33:34] of business stuff canel in one day just
[33:37] wiped off the calendar and and the world
[33:39] was like you have to stay home now by
[33:41] yourself my whole world became vanilla
[33:44] warm vanilla pudding to an extent that I
[33:46] had never before imagined because I had
[33:47] never stopped that much and I had never
[33:50] realized how yummy stopping felt and how
[33:54] delicious my routines became when it was
[33:56] just me alone in a house
[33:58] living with this great roommate myself
[34:01] who we have the same Hobbies we're into
[34:03] the same stuff like I love getting up
[34:05] early so does she I I like taking a bath
[34:08] and eating popcorn in the bathtub and
[34:09] watching the Great British baking show
[34:11] so does she like just finding these
[34:12] little hobbies and I didn't want to lose
[34:14] any of it it's the miracle of finding
[34:16] the perfect person to be with that
[34:17] everybody's trying to solve yeah that's
[34:19] right it's like Byron Katie always says
[34:21] the the one you've always been waiting
[34:22] for the love of your life as yourself so
[34:24] what happened was when the World opened
[34:26] again all these things started started
[34:28] being reintroduced right like suddenly
[34:31] social life came back professional life
[34:33] came back and I weighed each one and
[34:37] thought do I want to reintroduce it um
[34:40] because I had a really yummy vanilla
[34:42] pudding Vibe going there for a while now
[34:44] do I want to return to what I was doing
[34:46] before which was a lot of stuff that I
[34:48] didn't consciously even wonder do I want
[34:50] to do this do I like doing this do I
[34:52] like these people do I like these
[34:54] friends and I had a couple friends I had
[34:56] a couple friends who were
[34:59] very several um who are who I discovered
[35:02] when I came out of my warm vanilla
[35:04] pudding
[35:06] Solitude I experienced their energy to
[35:08] be very pushy um that they were they
[35:11] were like missiles they were sending
[35:14] texts all the time they were sending
[35:15] invites all the time and I tried a
[35:17] couple sort of subtle like hey you know
[35:19] I'm working on a book and I need some
[35:21] space and there's um I recently read
[35:23] that you can do with people something
[35:24] called the no test which is that when
[35:27] you make a newt or you have a new
[35:29] relationship to try out a no on them and
[35:31] see how it goes and if they react
[35:35] violently or or self- pityingly or um or
[35:39] you know pushing against that no that's
[35:42] a relationship you're going to want to
[35:43] discontinue because it's not going to
[35:44] get any better right so I did some no
[35:46] testing on some people where I was like
[35:49] hey I'm really kind of in my zone right
[35:50] now and I'm not doing anything and when
[35:52] the text came the next week well how
[35:55] about next week can we do this can we do
[35:56] that I finally realized ized wow I have
[35:59] to I have to ask some people to leave my
[36:01] life Wow and um and I did um I mean if
[36:04] you'd shown me this video or audio as a
[36:07] 30-year-old and said you will someday
[36:08] become a person who contacts somebody
[36:12] who they have been a friend with for a
[36:13] long time and says Hey listen I want to
[36:16] let you know that I'm shutting my life
[36:18] down a lot because I've discovered that
[36:21] I really mostly just love being alone
[36:24] and I want more of that and so I'm gonna
[36:27] be I really reduced my Social Circle to
[36:30] about six people and I can I see that
[36:33] you keep coming in and asking for more
[36:35] contact and I don't want to I don't want
[36:38] to ghost you and I don't want to um be
[36:41] constantly saying no to you I just want
[36:43] to let you know that I think I really
[36:44] just I'm going to ask that you step back
[36:47] and let me just live my quiet life now
[36:49] yeah and I did that a bunch of times
[36:51] after after the pandemic and and and I
[36:55] did it as with as much kindness as I
[36:57] could but they weren't stopping coming
[36:58] at me yeah and I had to stop it or else
[37:01] I was going to lose my vanilla pudding
[37:03] and it's really interesting that the
[37:06] technologies that we now enjoy were
[37:08] helping people come at you yeah I just
[37:11] read this book by Katherine May who self
[37:13] diagnosed at I think 38 on the autism
[37:17] spectrum and she's a brilliant writer
[37:19] and she talks about how she learned to
[37:21] mask her extreme sensitivity and her and
[37:24] she would have these things called White
[37:25] outs where she just couldn't cope with
[37:26] all the data coming into her brain she
[37:28] didn't know she was on the Spectrum she
[37:30] didn't know that till much later but one
[37:32] of the things she said that struck me as
[37:34] so why didn't I think of that was that
[37:37] she said if I had been born 150 years
[37:39] ago it wouldn't have been a great time
[37:42] to be a woman but there would not be
[37:43] flashing lights everywhere there would
[37:44] not be friendships with 200 people there
[37:47] would not be uh you
[37:50] know jet lag that would like she said
[37:53] all the things that trigger me would not
[37:56] have existed 15 years ago there wouldn't
[37:58] have been that many people there
[37:59] wouldn't have been the ability for that
[38:01] them to get in touch with you and it's
[38:03] kind of like the pandemic pulled back
[38:06] the culture which is pulling back the
[38:07] patriarchy which I think we have agreed
[38:10] is the root of the problem not you guys
[38:13] we love you but the patriarchy which is
[38:14] going to kill you too so it wants you to
[38:17] be Canon fodder so yeah I mean like can
[38:22] you just decide not to come back fully
[38:24] into that flashing lights culture that's
[38:26] what I've done and I got off social
[38:28] media too which I went through which was
[38:32] I felt scared and disobedient when I did
[38:34] that too I was like who do you think you
[38:36] are like this is the most important
[38:38] communication of the age but it didn't
[38:40] make me feel good I was real I really
[38:42] was like wow there's nothing for me here
[38:44] this makes me feel sick I think it makes
[38:47] everybody feel sick actually but like it
[38:48] makes me feel sick and I I have to go
[38:50] now I have to get a divorce from social
[38:53] media even though it was the same
[38:55] feelings I had when I got divorced from
[38:56] my first husband which is like are you
[38:58] allowed to don't you have to didn't you
[39:01] commit you've got you know all these
[39:03] followers don't you have to and it was
[39:04] like I really question now any voice
[39:08] that I have internalized that tells me
[39:11] you have to anything you know like I
[39:16] really pause and I'm like do I you know
[39:20] do I really because my God doesn't tell
[39:24] me
[39:26] that my God has never told me anything
[39:29] that begins with you have to um I'm more
[39:32] aligned these days with you get to yeah
[39:35] you get to get off social media if you
[39:37] want to you get to you get to ask
[39:41] boundary pushers to step back you get to
[39:43] spend time alone if that's what feels
[39:44] yummy to you I once knew a horse
[39:47] whisperer who said um he wanted to take
[39:49] out of his life the phrase you must or I
[39:53] will hurt you and I I just read this
[39:56] brilliant book called The Dawn of
[39:57] everything by two Davids I don't
[40:00] remember their last names two David
[40:02] people wrote it together and it's they
[40:03] looked at anthropology and archaeology
[40:06] to see why the world is so effed up
[40:08] right now and they did it's a 700 page
[40:12] book it's a vast Trove of research and
[40:14] what they found out was that everything
[40:16] started to go
[40:18] wrong culture started taking over other
[40:22] people a certain specific culture he
[40:25] they go back to Rome and what they say
[40:27] is this was the the first time somebody
[40:29] could say um I am I love you as your
[40:33] father and I will hurt you the other
[40:35] tribes and things they looked at they
[40:38] might hurt people and they had kids you
[40:40] know but they never hurt their kids ever
[40:44] like people from Native American
[40:45] communities would talk to
[40:46] anthropologists and say we never hit or
[40:49] yelled at a child before you people came
[40:52] and now it's like a toxin that spreads
[40:54] through the whole thing so that you must
[40:57] or I will hurt you like do a deep dive
[41:00] if you feel weird around anything or
[41:03] anybody and see if there's a trace of I
[41:05] must or it will hurt me and it loves me
[41:09] you know like all your followers on
[41:11] Facebook who would get enraged when you
[41:14] disappeared that's saying no you must or
[41:16] we will attack you and if it has that
[41:19] energy to it that is they weren't
[41:21] talking about feminism they were talking
[41:23] about why we're about to crash and burn
[41:26] like the of Rome yeah Rome fell because
[41:29] of that and now we've got it going again
[41:32] wow like we had a president who said a
[41:35] lot of you must I will hurt you yeah
[41:37] while he was in
[41:38] office he he's just the loudest
[41:40] vocalization of what this culture has
[41:43] always been yeah yeah um he's just its
[41:46] ultimate metastas metastasization I
[41:50] can't say that we were're thinking of
[41:52] doing this entire podcast with our
[41:55] tongues stuck to our mouth we thought
[41:57] that would be fun for every we just said
[41:59] that was the best baby talk I will
[42:00] answer your question in two ways first
[42:02] is a sociologist and second
[42:05] is baby the question that I have for for
[42:08] everybody listening is you
[42:11] know have you inherited a belief that
[42:13] you're not allowed to feel well and and
[42:16] I you know I I really did inherit that
[42:19] belief that you're not allowed to feel
[42:21] well who do you think you are and you're
[42:23] allowed to feel good and there are lots
[42:25] of things that this culture provides
[42:27] that will make you feel good right like
[42:29] lots of intoxicants lots of sedatives
[42:32] lots of distractions lots of things to
[42:34] consume that'll make you feel good
[42:35] you'll get that good good hit but that's
[42:38] not the same as feeling
[42:39] well and there are days now where I
[42:43] don't necessarily feel good but I feel
[42:46] well I heard it explained like that you
[42:48] could be there are times in my past
[42:50] where I felt really good but I wasn't
[42:52] doing
[42:53] well because I was consuming a lot of
[42:55] things that made me feel good but I was
[42:57] not at my Essence doing well you know
[42:59] and now I'm doing really well and
[43:02] sometimes I don't feel good because I'm
[43:03] feeling my feelings and I feel sad or I
[43:05] feel lonely or feel angry and doesn't
[43:07] feel good but but I'm doing really well
[43:11] that's um largely because I can feel
[43:13] yeah feelings it works better than Wine
[43:17] think of that and I think Ro and I have
[43:20] been talking about this we I I'm writing
[43:21] about self-regulation and how all of
[43:23] those are attempts to self-regulate when
[43:25] you find somebody who's you weren't an
[43:28] alcoholic or anything um people don't
[43:31] get the idea that Liz is a drug addict
[43:33] or whatever but I'm an addict yeah of
[43:36] situations of relationship I'm an addict
[43:39] yeah for sure and I've used more
[43:40] substances than I would like to admit to
[43:42] regulate myself yeah but but here's the
[43:44] thing if you're out there doing this and
[43:47] you don't see the way out like don't
[43:49] kick out the person who is trying to
[43:52] regulate your entire inner system if you
[43:55] if you talk to them as a separate Part
[43:57] of Yourself you'll find out they're
[43:58] doing their absolute best and they're
[44:01] trying to give you signals like we're
[44:02] sick we're sick we don't like this but
[44:05] we will regulate in this unhealthy way
[44:06] if we have to it's better than you dying
[44:09] yeah so I
[44:11] mean we've been talking about
[44:14] self-regulating and like looking at all
[44:17] the things we use to regulate I think
[44:18] you called it bottom line behaviors once
[44:21] and then there are behaviors that are
[44:23] much better at coping so like
[44:28] Rose said something the other day about
[44:30] just feeling that something that really
[44:34] helped stabilize
[44:36] things no couldn't do it
[44:39] anymore carbohydrates or something cuz
[44:41] she's got insulin resistance no it was I
[44:45] decided I wasn't going to have a glass
[44:46] of wine in the evening anymore for a
[44:49] while because I could feel myself
[44:52] waiting for like knockoff and and have a
[44:56] glass of wine and it was it was just it
[44:59] was more like it was in my mind too much
[45:01] I was sick of like being like you know
[45:04] we have our wine time and I have a nice
[45:06] glass of wine and then I was like but if
[45:08] I
[45:09] don't what's that going to be like you
[45:11] know and what was it have you because
[45:12] this I'm interested in hearing from both
[45:14] of you when you take away the familiar
[45:18] patterns that help you coope with living
[45:20] in the patriarchy what I think will
[45:21] happen is you'll suffer enough that you
[45:24] will uh tolerate the culture no more so
[45:27] I love what you said Liz about how you
[45:29] know anti-anxiety medications wine
[45:32] whatever is helping people regulate and
[45:35] feel okay in a situation cult not that
[45:38] is toxic wait what could you give some
[45:40] examples of what they might be if
[45:41] they're not actually substances like
[45:43] what are other ways that we reg because
[45:45] substances is easy people will be able
[45:47] to go oh yeah for sure watching TV
[45:49] flipping through your oh my gosh the
[45:51] dopamine hit from flipping through your
[45:52] phone we had such a drug I had a game
[45:56] that would had amazing haptics it made
[45:59] my hand feel like the world was
[46:01] happening in it and they knew they had
[46:04] something because when you go to renew
[46:05] your lives it's not $5 it's like $100
[46:08] and I was like I must it's shiny it
[46:11] makes my hand feel the world and yeah
[46:14] that was my regulator for a while and
[46:16] then Karen came and said um about these
[46:18] charges I like I'll delete it but it was
[46:22] hard yeah you know you probably went
[46:24] through withdrawal yeah I did I went
[46:26] through withdrawal when I got off in
[46:27] stagram like real withdrawal really like
[46:29] what was that like uh I felt incred I
[46:31] felt incredibly uncomfortable lonely sad
[46:34] scared jacked up agitated mostly fear um
[46:39] for me anything that I've ever put down
[46:41] like which is the the sort of recovery
[46:43] term for like not using it anymore has
[46:46] come with a period of withdrawal that
[46:48] has for me always felt like fear wow
[46:50] like what will I do now how will I be
[46:53] okay if I don't have this thing you know
[46:56] what did you do with that when you got
[46:57] off Instagram I felt
[46:59] it that I felt it and that's when I knew
[47:02] that for me this had become a drug
[47:04] because I was going through the
[47:06] withdrawal of I don't have my drug I
[47:07] don't have my comfort so I sat through
[47:09] it and you know I felt it I sat there
[47:12] and I felt the the the shakiness the
[47:15] jerkiness of wanting to reach for this
[47:17] thing I felt the sense of I don't I'm
[47:19] not connected anymore I'm not relevant
[47:21] anymore um you know I don't know what's
[47:23] going on in the more in the world nobody
[47:25] cares about me I'll be forgotten know
[47:27] all of these like deep psychological
[47:29] withdrawals that and then after a couple
[47:32] weeks I mean it was really difficult for
[47:34] the first few days and then it settled
[47:35] and then it settled and then what what
[47:38] what filled it was just well vanilla
[47:41] pudding like back came my initial
[47:44] initial factory settings of oh my God
[47:48] the world is so beautiful I'm going to
[47:49] go for a really long walk um and I had
[47:52] been wanting I'd been asking my higher
[47:55] power and my guides and my music to send
[47:57] me an idea for a novel I'd been asking
[47:59] for two years for two years I'd written
[48:02] in my journal almost every day hey
[48:03] anytime you guys have an idea for me for
[48:05] a novel I would love one and they would
[48:07] write back when we've got an idea for
[48:09] you you'll be notified that was the
[48:11] conversation that I had for two years
[48:12] and I have enough Trust of my creative
[48:14] process to believe I'll be notified you
[48:16] know like they'll let me know and then
[48:17] I'll do it I'll do what they tell me two
[48:20] weeks after I got off on Instagram got
[48:23] off Instagram got off on Instagram was
[48:25] what I used to be doing got off in
[48:28] the idea came wow for the book that I'm
[48:31] now almost finished you know and it's
[48:33] like there was no room for it right so
[48:35] like I had to get rid of this thing so
[48:37] that I could create this spaciousness
[48:39] for this thing that I didn't even know
[48:40] what it was that was going to come in
[48:42] wow I love it when that happens um this
[48:46] H it actually happened Rose stopped
[48:48] drinking a glass of wine ever it was not
[48:50] usually a big deal for her anyway but
[48:53] immediately got the plot of another
[48:56] novel and it's really really good it's
[48:59] something about like being available
[49:01] right it's like you're not available for
[49:05] whatever guidance or or opportunity or
[49:09] whatever and you guys being present is
[49:12] incredibly uncomfortable like that's the
[49:14] thing like I love that pemin talks about
[49:16] this because she says people always
[49:17] think that meditation is going to make
[49:19] them calm and ultimately it will because
[49:22] she said essentially what happens is
[49:23] you've got this really this mind that's
[49:25] like the surface of a lake with a big
[49:26] wind whing it across it so it's got
[49:28] white caps and spray flowing and all
[49:30] this stuff and it's chaotic and then you
[49:31] go into meditation and breath work and
[49:34] that water settles and then the surface
[49:35] of the lake is clear and people think
[49:38] that's going to make them calm but it
[49:40] doesn't because now you can see what's
[49:41] at the bottom of the lake you can see
[49:43] the the Shipwreck and the Industrial
[49:45] Waste and the garbage and like the
[49:48] corpses and everything that you've been
[49:49] not seeing right right so to actually
[49:52] have to be present this is I wrote about
[49:54] this in NE pray love how incred I was
[49:56] crawling out of my skin at the ash
[49:57] sitting in meditation um on and on it's
[50:00] uncomfortable if you're not used to
[50:02] feeling it's uncomfortable to sit and
[50:05] feel but what happens if you can sit and
[50:08] feel and become an antenna that receives
[50:11] signals and is that you start to receive
[50:13] signals suddenly you've got inspiration
[50:15] suddenly you've got ideas like
[50:17] everything you're available but it's not
[50:20] necessarily this is why I say there are
[50:21] days I don't feel good yeah but I always
[50:24] feel well um and when I don't feel good
[50:28] you know when I feel like sad or or
[50:31] alone or hurt or angry I'm like and I'm
[50:34] and sometimes I I'm afraid I'll get
[50:35] carried away by it these days I just
[50:37] think how
[50:38] incredible that I used to not be able to
[50:41] let myself feel this I would have
[50:43] reached for I mean I had a subscription
[50:45] for Xanax for prescription subscription
[50:47] it came every month Time Life presents
[50:50] Xanax I mean I had Xanax and I always
[50:52] had an emergency Xanax in every
[50:55] pocketbook that I ever owned long I mean
[50:58] like you know back when I was standing
[51:00] on stage giving people life coaching
[51:02] advice I had Xanax in my pocket because
[51:04] the minute those feelings of discomfort
[51:06] would come up I'd be like that's got to
[51:08] stop yeah you know I had this last night
[51:10] like last night I went through this wave
[51:12] of just I don't know why like things
[51:14] come in waves I went through this wave
[51:15] of Sorrow I was thinking about rehea and
[51:18] I was laying there in bed and my heart
[51:19] achd you know I could feel it my
[51:21] physical heart was aching in grief and I
[51:24] thought wow there was a time a couple
[51:26] years ago where I would have just
[51:27] reached right over into this right into
[51:31] this very bedst stand and there would
[51:33] have been sleeping pills and there would
[51:35] have been Xanax and I would have created
[51:37] some sort of combo and and then I would
[51:38] have gone downstairs and made some
[51:40] buttered noodles and I would have
[51:42] muffled and suffocated this feeling any
[51:44] way that I could because it's because it
[51:46] hurts but instead last night I just laid
[51:49] there and I felt this
[51:51] hurts you know and I thought what a rare
[51:54] Bliss it is to be able to finally feel
[51:57] feel all the feelings that my culture
[51:58] has told me are not allowed this is the
[52:01] hurt of pain I knew I was going to see
[52:03] you guys today I always feel nostalgic
[52:05] for rehea when I see you because she
[52:06] loved you so much I always feel so sad
[52:08] that she's not in the car with me coming
[52:10] to see you and I was feeling that last
[52:13] night and I just felt it you know I had
[52:16] my hand on one hand on my heart and
[52:18] because I get it when I get a lot of
[52:19] grief I get like a cramp in my shoulder
[52:22] because it's almost like a tiny little
[52:24] heart attack right like you can whenever
[52:26] people have heart attacks they feel it
[52:27] down their arm so I get a cramp in my
[52:29] shoulder and down my arm so I had one
[52:31] hand on my heart and the other one just
[52:33] holding my shoulder and I just laid
[52:36] there and I just kept saying to that
[52:38] pain I see you I see you and I love you
[52:42] I see you and I'm not going anywhere I
[52:45] see you I see you I know I see you that
[52:48] hurts doesn't it I see you I see you I
[52:50] see you and within 45 minutes or an hour
[52:55] which might seem like a really long time
[52:56] to be in pain
[52:57] but it settled you know because it just
[53:00] needed to be seen and loved yeah and it
[53:02] didn't have to be muffled it didn't have
[53:04] to be pilled away and then I fell asleep
[53:07] and I got to come over here without a
[53:08] hangover from taking sleeping pills last
[53:10] night right and feeling like wow it's
[53:12] amazing that I loved somebody that much
[53:14] that all these years later just knowing
[53:16] that I'm going to drive to see her
[53:17] favorite people without her makes my
[53:19] heart hurt it
[53:21] should it should make my heart hurt that
[53:24] is an accurate feeling so that's what
[53:27] I'm learning about my hypers sensitivity
[53:29] is that all of these feelings that I
[53:31] medicated and and when you were saying
[53:33] what do you use if not drugs I used
[53:34] people that's why I was always in such
[53:37] intense relationships I used people as
[53:39] sedatives I used people as stimulants
[53:42] you know I used people as sedatives and
[53:43] I used rehea as a sedative and a
[53:45] stimulant she was a speedball right she
[53:47] was heroin and cocaine like you know I
[53:49] used people to regulate my nervous
[53:52] system and now any day what I consider
[53:55] sobriety for me is any day where I don't
[53:57] use anybody to change my internal life
[54:01] is a day where i'm emotionally sober wow
[54:03] and that is like balancing on the head
[54:05] of a pin right it's wild it's a wild
[54:08] experience to be alive it's supposed to
[54:12] be do you find I don't know if you would
[54:14] agree with this but one of the things
[54:15] that I find with that letting yourself
[54:18] feel it stuff that Marty introduced me
[54:21] to this idea of
[54:23] shards like where I remember when I
[54:27] don't know we hadn't been together long
[54:28] I was having a day of feeling it and and
[54:32] what Marty said to me which felt so true
[54:35] and continues to feel true for me is she
[54:39] said you you've been feeling this this
[54:41] whole time anyway like you've that is
[54:43] something that you have been carrying
[54:45] around every day and now it's coming out
[54:48] which is really you know gets your
[54:50] attention and you really feel it but
[54:52] it's a Shard and then when it comes out
[54:55] it's one less shard that you're carrying
[54:58] around and there you'll be that much
[54:59] lighter and and this is just the time to
[55:01] to let it work its way out and I like
[55:05] part of it is that wow it makes the
[55:07] feeling it so much easier on me and it
[55:13] also I I have it has been my experience
[55:16] that after not distracting not doping
[55:19] not picking up the phone not picking up
[55:21] the
[55:21] pills that I do feel lighter after
[55:24] letting myself you know and I think
[55:26] about the pachin metaphor of the ocean
[55:29] is that I think the water gets a little
[55:30] bit clearer each time right because you
[55:33] you've pulled one of the corpses out
[55:35] yeah you're pulling out the the 55
[55:37] gallon drum filled with toxic waste
[55:40] right and like you're cleaning it up but
[55:42] yeah the first Glimpse when you look
[55:44] down and for the first time you see it
[55:46] without distraction it can be shocking
[55:49] yeah it's j and it's all part of you so
[55:51] each Shard is a represent is a part of
[55:54] you it's like something very traumatic
[55:56] happens part splits off and becomes the
[55:58] carrier for that pain and then it may
[56:02] start drinking or something and you feel
[56:03] like you're not in control because it's
[56:05] not what you identify as self It's A
[56:08] Shard and and what you just said so
[56:11] brilliantly Liz and I left out of of
[56:15] what I told you is as The Shard comes
[56:18] out no matter how it hurts it is
[56:21] something innocent that wants your love
[56:23] it doesn't matter if I mean rea had
[56:27] years of Addiction on heroin and cocaine
[56:30] there wasn't a single time she took a
[56:32] hit of drugs that it wasn't an innocent
[56:34] person trying to take care of the whole
[56:36] world absolutely so to look at each
[56:38] Shard as it comes out and not even say
[56:40] oh I'm so glad you're gone but I see you
[56:43] I love you you can come back if you like
[56:46] and what happens when you do that
[56:47] practice is that all the little shards
[56:50] come back you know the corpses come out
[56:52] the toxic waste comes out but then there
[56:54] are like beautiful urns that are carried
[56:57] by mermaids around and you go into the
[56:59] mystical magical part of your
[57:02] brain and because all those shards are
[57:04] available to do whatever you want and
[57:06] what they want to do is create and we
[57:10] all create partly because we're super
[57:12] sensitive we're can like we couldn't
[57:15] tolerate life it was making us super
[57:17] sick and then we started loving our
[57:20] shards and those shards said how about
[57:22] we write a book some of them just said I
[57:25] don't want to go on just
[57:28] and that's good
[57:29] too I just want to
[57:31] snuggle should we go cuddles a bit I
[57:35] think we should yeah so at the end
[57:39] traditionally Do You Feel Complete I
[57:41] Feel Complete Do You Feel Complete
[57:42] Lizzie I Feel Complete whenever I'm with
[57:44] you too A for real we didn't even get
[57:47] you're my vanilla puding friends
[57:49] choosing friend as family um which is
[57:52] another thing you've done and it's a
[57:54] whole another topic we could get into on
[57:56] different hour let's get her back now
[57:59] that we've got the microphone all right
[58:02] so we we have to say stay wild in unison
[58:04] at the end so one 2 3 stay
[58:09] wild we hope you're enjoying bewildered
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