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Inspire

Why Culture Is Hostile to Childless-by-Choice Women

Martha Beck
Martha Beck
Aug 24, 2022
7 min di lettura
Guarda · 5

At a funeral, a woman's older relative stood in a room full of mourners and made a claim that most of the people present had heard all their lives: that a life without children is pointless. Elizabeth Gilbert, whose partner had just died, looked around at the four close friends beside her, none of whom had children, and started laughing. "I guess our lives are pointless you guys," she recalled saying. That moment is the doorway into an episode of the podcast Bewildered, hosted by Martha Beck with Rowan Mangan, in which Gilbert and her hosts take up a question that is easy to feel and hard to name: why is the culture so hostile toward women who are single and childless by choice? The conversation moves from one funeral room to sociology, from a marriage-benefit puzzle to the wisdom of the body, and it argues that the hostility is less a natural response than a story with an agenda.

Lettura · 6 sezioni

Where did the pointless-life script come from, and why does it still land?

Gilbert's account of the funeral is funny, but it is also precise about how the script travels. The relative had admired a commencement address Barbara Bush gave at Vassar, and drew from it the message that "there is nothing more important or precious to you than having a family." Gilbert says the speech drew pushback even decades ago, and that the young graduates in the audience were probably left with a particular kind of "huh." The relative's point was not a considered argument so much as a reflex, the kind of thing repeated so often it no longer sounds like an opinion at all.

What struck Gilbert in that room was the gap between the script and the people in front of her. These were not women whose lives lacked texture or accomplishment. In her telling, they were "extraordinary people" whose lives were "so full and so rich." She describes the idea as a thick, deep, almost invisible assumption that there is "no other reason to live" as a woman. The laughter was her recognition that the assumption had no evidence behind it in the lives she could see.

What did Gilbert's own body do when the script told her to comply?

Gilbert is candid that she once believed the script. "I bought into that as a young person," she says, and she married quickly and set out on the track toward children. Then, in her words, "something in my body and my being just refused to allow it." She describes a full mental, physical and psychological breakdown, the period she later wrote about in her memoir and that many readers know from the story of Eat Pray Love.

The turn in her account is the one that makes the episode more than a critique of culture. Gilbert says that she came to believe something was wrong with her, because she kept having breakdowns "instead of having children." Only when she gave up the expectation did things change: "when I gave that up my life got better and better and better." Her point is that the body's refusal was not a malfunction to be overridden. It was information about what she could not live inside, and the episode frames that kind of bodily signal as a guide toward a person's truth.

"I thought there was something so wrong with me because I kept having nervous breakdowns instead of having children." (Elizabeth Gilbert, on the Bewildered podcast with Martha Beck)

Is the culture simply expressing an opinion about single women?

This is where Gilbert separates two things that are usually blurred. There are cases, she acknowledges, where a culture's disapproval is only opinion, and people are entitled to their opinions. But on the question of whether a woman's life goes better or worse through marriage, she argues, the culture is "actually wrong," and the evidence is measurable. She calls the body of research the "marriage benefit and balance puzzle," which she says has puzzled sociologists for years.

The pattern she describes is a sharp drop, not a gain. Across what she calls "every single aspect" of a woman's life, she says, the quality of life falls after marriage. Her list is specific: financial life "plummets," physical health declines, women on average gain about 10 pounds within a few years, life expectancy goes down, the chances of being murdered rise, and so do the chances of suicide, depression and anxiety. She adds that the more children a woman has, the worse these measures get.

Her bottom line is blunt: "there is not one single place in which it shows that married women do better than single women." She is careful, though, to mark where her knowledge runs out. She said she did not know the studies on some comparisons, including ones she could not immediately place, and that she had explored the same question in her book Committed. A reader should take her summary as a guided reading of the research rather than a final verdict on every population, and as a prompt to look at the studies directly.

What is the culture getting out of women feeling pointless?

Martha Beck asks what is going on behind the scenes, noting that culture "always got an agenda." Gilbert's answer runs through the episode's central concern. The episode description frames the discussion around "the lies that benefit the patriarchy," and that framing matters. If a woman's worth is defined by marriage and motherhood, then a woman who steps outside that structure is not merely living differently. She is suddenly a threat to a script that many people have been told is simply how life works.

That is why, in Gilbert's account, the hostility can reach "way past bewilderment" into "rage, blame, disgust, contempt." The sense of pity that a culture reserves for women who are single through circumstance turns into something harsher when the woman is single by choice. The choice is what exposes the script as optional.

What can a listener take from this conversation?

Several practical threads emerge. First, separate opinion from claims that can be checked. Gilbert's distinction between a culture's view and its measurable record gives listeners a way to test a claim before absorbing it. Second, treat the body's resistance as data. Gilbert's breakdown is an extreme example, but the core idea, that a signal from the body can point toward a truth the culture has not allowed, runs through the whole episode and the description's promise to explore "how to trust the wisdom of the body." Third, notice the people around you. The funeral became an illuminating scene because Gilbert looked at the evidence in front of her, four friends whose lives were full, instead of the story she had been handed.

Where to go from here

The excerpt covers the conversation's framing, Gilbert's personal story, and her summary of the marriage research, but the full episode goes further. The episode description also flags a conversation about "the saving grace of oversensitivity" and about trusting the body to guide a person toward their own truth, themes that open out from the questions here. To go deeper, watch the full episode on the Martha Beck channel or the show page at marthabeck.com. For the research Gilbert describes, her book Committed is the place she says she examined the same question in detail. Read her claims as a starting point, check the sources yourself, and pay attention to where your own body says yes and no.

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Transcript

[0:00] hi I'm Martha Beck and I'm Rowan Mangan

[0:02] and this is bewildered the podcast for

[0:04] people trying to figure it out and today

[0:07] we have a very special episode Mar oh

[0:11] y okay so this person I mean we like her

[0:14] a lot um but I doubt you have heard of

[0:18] her she's uh she's one of those low

[0:20] energy people who never achieves much

[0:22] and uh is really trying so hard to

[0:24] figure it out and uh once entered a

[0:27] state fair in every single event offered

[0:31] and was given a special ribbon called

[0:34] most in show guys this person is the

[0:38] opposite of the one I've just described

[0:40] this is the

[0:42] incredible the unconquerable I'm running

[0:44] out of adjectives Liz

[0:48] Gil Hi Li

[0:51] hi

[0:53] hi it's so good to see you guys I love

[0:55] you so much we all just in through the

[0:58] winters of covid we would just sort

[1:01] of Liz came over and would sit by the

[1:03] fireplace because she assured us I grew

[1:06] up in the country all the air gets

[1:07] sucked up the chimney I can't infect you

[1:10] it's true I thought it was just one of

[1:12] your clever rses well also I had a mask

[1:14] on and also you were the only thing I

[1:17] missed during the pandemic about the

[1:19] world being shut was coming over to your

[1:21] house so I had to be mask myself and

[1:24] come and sit by you you are wonderful so

[1:26] then we'd all just end up cuddling yeah

[1:29] oh boy that went

[1:31] yeah that's what we did I mean let's be

[1:34] honest yeah we we cuddled a lot because

[1:37] that's the natural way and the nature

[1:39] culture culture says you don't have your

[1:41] friends come over and cuddle with you

[1:43] but we say that's our nature we're

[1:45] cuddling yes exactly cuddly culture is

[1:47] wrong on that one so today we're going

[1:51] to ask Liz Gilbert what she's trying to

[1:54] figure out and we'll talk about what the

[1:56] culture is says about that and then we

[1:59] will have a conclusion conclusion so

[2:03] what I love conclusion conclusion I'm in

[2:07] self-help mode book writing mode you

[2:09] have to tell everybody what's going to

[2:11] happen on every page no seriously what

[2:15] is Liz Gilbert trying to figure out well

[2:18] well I first of all thank you very much

[2:20] for inviting me to your

[2:22] house thank you very much for inviting

[2:24] yourself to our podcast yes that's what

[2:26] I did I said you you guys can I come and

[2:28] play on your podcast because that's the

[2:29] other thing we we cuddle and we play um

[2:32] and this is play time so well I I want

[2:35] to talk about trying to figure out why

[2:38] culture is so incredibly hostile to the

[2:43] idea of single childless women and um

[2:47] and especially single childish women

[2:49] childless women also childish just

[2:52] showing I'm not childish I'm childlike

[2:54] okay let's just get that right right

[2:56] they're two different things um

[2:59] especially hostile to women who are

[3:02] single and childless by choice there's

[3:04] there's there's there's pity and

[3:06] compassion and great sorrow available to

[3:08] women who are childless and single um

[3:11] alone but uh because they couldn't help

[3:13] it or wanted something else but but to

[3:15] choose that as a path um is is met by

[3:19] culture with hostility at the worst like

[3:22] way past bewilderment just just um yeah

[3:26] rage blame um disgust contempt and and

[3:30] I'm trying to figure out why that is the

[3:32] case because I am single and child

[3:35] childish I'm just GNA keep saying it

[3:37] childless by choice and it's so good um

[3:42] it's so deeply good and enjoyable and

[3:45] rich and full and I also have created a

[3:48] life where I my family are my friends

[3:50] and that's also something that culture

[3:52] does not approve of so um that's what

[3:54] I'm here to discuss with you beautiful

[3:57] human beings today so I am curious like

[3:59] you've you've had these experiences of

[4:02] of people coming at you that way like

[4:05] what's a specific time that it happened

[4:07] like um I was okay well this one this

[4:11] one is funny haha it was at Rey's

[4:15] funeral and uh a relative of mine was an

[4:19] older female relative of mine was in the

[4:21] room with me and with a number of my

[4:23] friends who had come to support me rehea

[4:24] was my partner who was your friend also

[4:26] who died several years ago and right

[4:28] before the funeral they were all

[4:30] gathered together and and this older

[4:32] female relative of mine was with us and

[4:34] she said something about how she had so

[4:37] admired um that Barbara Bush that's

[4:41] already a sentence that's like you don't

[4:42] hear a lot she had so admired that

[4:45] Barbara Bush had and her would was given

[4:47] the commencement speech at Vasser once

[4:49] and she said all of this is wonderful

[4:50] that you're all getting this education

[4:52] but you'll find in life that there is

[4:53] nothing more important or precious to

[4:55] you than having a family and she got

[4:58] some Kickback from that even even 30

[5:01] years ago or however long it was that

[5:02] she did it and and I said well I can see

[5:04] why people might have been you know

[5:06] those young hardworking Scholars might

[5:09] have been like huh um to that you know

[5:11] and uh and and this relative of mine

[5:13] said well it's true there's um a life

[5:16] without children is is pointless and I

[5:20] looked around and I was with four of my

[5:22] friends none of us had children oh my

[5:24] God and I and I said well I guess our

[5:26] lives are pointless you guys and I just

[5:29] started laughing because I was looking

[5:31] at these incredible women in my life and

[5:33] their lives were so extraordinary and

[5:35] they and they were so wonder I mean it's

[5:38] not even like they were all like super

[5:40] famous heavily accomplished whatever

[5:41] they were just extraordinary people you

[5:45] know whose lives were so full and so

[5:47] rich and I thought man this just doesn't

[5:49] go away this this really thick deep idea

[5:54] um that that that's that there's no

[5:57] other reason to live um as a woman and I

[5:59] bought into that

[6:00] um I bought into that as a young person

[6:03] and I went out and got myself married as

[6:05] fast as I could and went on the track to

[6:06] have kids but then something in my body

[6:09] and my being just refused to allow it

[6:12] and um and I went into a full mental

[6:14] physical and psychological breakdown

[6:15] those of you who have already Pray Love

[6:17] or seen the movie know what happened

[6:19] next um because I simply couldn't do it

[6:21] it's like there was almost like I was

[6:23] wired in a way that I could not do it

[6:25] even though the culture had told me to

[6:26] do it oh thank God I couldn't do it and

[6:29] I thought there was something so wrong

[6:30] with me because I kept having nervous

[6:33] breakdowns instead of having children

[6:35] and um and then when I gave that up my

[6:38] life got better and better and better

[6:41] and anyway so that's what that's what

[6:42] we're here to discuss so L what do you

[6:45] think is going on if the culture is

[6:48] saying your life is pointless if you

[6:50] don't have children or have a family in

[6:53] that conventional sense yeah what's

[6:55] what's behind that like what's what's

[6:57] going on because we know that the

[6:59] culture is kind of always got an agenda

[7:01] yeah yeah so what's happening behind the

[7:03] scenes when women are being told that so

[7:06] glad you asked um I actually wrote about

[7:09] this a lot in my book committed because

[7:10] I was looking into that exact question

[7:13] so before I answer that I have to tell

[7:15] you that the culture there are cases

[7:17] where you can say like well that's

[7:19] opinion and cultures have opinions and

[7:21] people have

[7:22] opinions here's the thing the culture is

[7:24] actually wrong on this and and all

[7:28] sociological studies there's something

[7:29] that it's called the marriage benefit

[7:31] and balance puzzle which I'm sure you've

[7:33] heard about Mar but it's bewildered um

[7:36] I'm just plugging the podcast when I say

[7:38] bewildered I'm going to use that word as

[7:39] much as I can um it is bewildered

[7:42] sociologists forever because there is

[7:45] this incredible um drop that happens in

[7:48] the quality of a woman's life when she

[7:50] gets married and it is across every

[7:53] single aspect of her life her financial

[7:55] life will plummet her physical health

[7:57] plummets She Will on average gain 10

[7:59] pounds within a few years her her her

[8:02] life expectancy goes down uh her chances

[8:05] of getting murdered Skyrocket her

[8:08] chances of committing suicide Skyrocket

[8:10] depression Rises anxiety Rises and and

[8:13] if you the more children you add to that

[8:15] the worse it gets right so literally in

[8:18] every single measurement that you can

[8:20] use to measure the quality of a human

[8:22] being's life statistically there is not

[8:26] one single place in which it shows that

[8:30] married women do better than single

[8:31] women married hetro women yeah married

[8:33] hetro women and I don't know the studies

[8:35] on and I've and I asked that and

[8:37] committed too because I was like I

[8:38] wonder what happens when two it probably

[8:39] just becomes really qu but I also

[8:41] whatever I'm not gonna get into that

[8:42] it's not my world so first of all I just

[8:44] want to say it's it's the culture is

[8:47] telling you a story that is simply it's

[8:49] not just an opinion it's simply not true

[8:51] you will take 10 years off your life

[8:53] expectancy immediately as a heterosexual

[8:55] Woman by getting married just right off

[8:57] the bat you know it's it's crazy so

[8:59] there's something happening what is

[9:01] happening you know what's being sold

[9:03] yeah Marty I know these studies yeah and

[9:05] I don't know if it's the same but what

[9:09] the bit you left out is that after

[9:10] marriage a man assists heter man his

[9:13] quality of life rocket way skyrockets

[9:17] every single thing that happens to a

[9:19] woman is given to a man so she loses 10

[9:21] years of of her life expectancy he gains

[9:24] her health goes down his health goes up

[9:27] her rates of addiction alcoholism

[9:28] suicide and murder possibility go down

[9:31] his he soures her work her career tanks

[9:34] his sores there's no better thing a man

[9:37] can do than hitch himself to a woman y

[9:40] so and there's no worse thing a woman

[9:41] can do statistically than put it and

[9:43] this is what makes me so crazy about

[9:45] literally every single romantic story

[9:46] we're told is the opposite of that it's

[9:49] like it makes me mental when I watch

[9:51] romcoms and the whole theme of it is a

[9:54] man running away from getting trapped

[9:55] into a marriage and a woman running

[9:57] toward this thing that she wants so much

[9:59] when fact it should be the opposite the

[10:01] woman should be running screaming away

[10:04] and the man should be running toward her

[10:06] begging to make his life a million times

[10:08] better because that's what's actually

[10:09] going to happen oh my go you know

[10:11] statistically obviously there are

[10:12] anomalies within this but this is like

[10:14] this is shown and study after study and

[10:15] it hasn't changed over the decades no so

[10:18] so first of all there's there's this

[10:20] incredible Central lie right so who

[10:23] benefits from this lie aha well it could

[10:26] be like the patriarchy right like it

[10:29] could be the men whose lives get so much

[10:31] better when a woman is attached to them

[10:33] you know um and it's also

[10:36] culturally cultures okay this is

[10:39] especially in a culture like an American

[10:41] culture which is all about individualism

[10:43] where the culture and the society does

[10:44] not take care of its citizens and it

[10:46] doesn't want to it doesn't want to spend

[10:48] money on that it wants to spend money on

[10:50] the military right so it wants the

[10:52] citizens to take care of themselves

[10:54] right because that's what benefits the

[10:56] capitalist Market is like if everybody

[10:58] takes care of themselves don't have to

[11:00] pay for healthare we don't have to pay

[11:01] for education and the best way to create

[11:04] building blocks of culture where the

[11:05] building blocks take care of themselves

[11:08] is to have a woman taking care of that

[11:09] block yeah right so you bring a woman in

[11:12] you create a family around her she will

[11:14] make sure that those children get

[11:15] educated she will make sure that those

[11:17] children get Dentistry she will make

[11:19] sure that that husband goes to his job

[11:21] and if she does all of that then the

[11:23] culture doesn't have to do it right so

[11:27] what happens is that our entire capital

[11:30] cultural huge success American dream is

[11:32] built upon those women doing that

[11:35] individually one household at a time

[11:37] which is why they die younger which is

[11:39] why they commit suicide which is why

[11:41] they strug struggle with depression and

[11:43] anxiety and and can't get through the

[11:45] day because they're holding up something

[11:47] that in a healthy culture would be

[11:49] shared yeah I did my PhD dissertation on

[11:52] this how the basically all men are

[11:55] created equal was written by a white

[11:58] property owning male who never thought

[12:00] to call include women people of color

[12:03] anybody except himself in and those men

[12:06] who matched him that they were all equal

[12:09] but all the work of the society had to

[12:11] be oh I think we better enslave about

[12:14] millions of people and drag them back

[12:16] here to do the actual work then when it

[12:19] was illegal to force a person of color

[12:21] to do what everything you wanted for

[12:23] free women were the only ones left to do

[12:26] the work of households the care the

[12:29] feeding the loving the healing of every

[12:32] little kid every old person women took

[12:35] that all upon themselves and then at a

[12:37] key Point feminism came out and said

[12:41] yeah you can do this and also do a job

[12:43] that was created for a single for a

[12:45] married man who has a full-time free

[12:47] domestic support staff and so now women

[12:51] were trying to do it both this was in

[12:53] the 80s when I was trying to do

[12:54] everything and somebody went to Gloria

[12:56] steum and said this is not workable I

[13:00] have to do everything that a huge

[13:04] household of servants would once have

[13:06] done and do the job my husband is doing

[13:09] and somehow make all this work why

[13:11] didn't you tell us it would be this way

[13:14] and Gloria steum looked at her and said

[13:16] we didn't

[13:17] know because the culture makes it so

[13:20] mind blind okay this favorite

[13:23] stump every person going into freshman

[13:27] near at Harvard drink um

[13:31] was required to read or asked to read

[13:34] Walden by Henry David thorough and it's

[13:37] about this guy goes to this Pond and he

[13:39] just communes with nature for a whole

[13:41] year to show that nature takes care of

[13:43] you and everything is fine and it's this

[13:45] classic of the isolated Woodsman out

[13:47] there he does not mention that every day

[13:50] his mother and sisters brought clean

[13:53] laundry and food cleaned the house took

[13:55] away his dirty laundry and dirty dishes

[13:57] and then came back back the next day

[13:59] what

[14:00] you just assume that's going to happen

[14:02] right like that's not that's not a human

[14:04] doing that it's a woman it's that's what

[14:06] they do it's like the sun rising they

[14:08] just come wash your clothes sorry if I

[14:11] sound a little bitter well

[14:14] spotted yeah so yeah and I was on that

[14:17] track in my first marriage I mean I was

[14:19] supporting us and I was working really

[14:21] hard and I was putting a meal in front

[14:22] of that man every single night and

[14:25] picking up his underwear and I was

[14:27] enraged and I was like what am I I was

[14:29] about to have a kid and we bought a

[14:30] house with a nursery in it like I had I

[14:32] was on that track wow but what it took

[14:35] for me to get off that track was to

[14:37] almost commit suicide and have to be

[14:39] hospitalized like I was in so much I

[14:41] mean that's the lowest I've ever been in

[14:42] my life it's the most psychological

[14:44] despair that I was ever in the despair

[14:47] was what's wrong with me yeah that I am

[14:51] not fulfilled and satisfied by this

[14:53] model I am a terrible person I am a

[14:58] selfish person I am a broken person and

[15:00] it never occurred to me to be like

[15:02] what's wrong with culture that this is

[15:06] what I was taught is the thing when it's

[15:09] horrible and you know what that had her

[15:12] hand up too sorry sorry I have a comment

[15:16] after's got her hand up Roy in the back

[15:21] row back row with the cool

[15:24] kids we'll be right back with more

[15:26] bewildered I have a favor to ask you you

[15:29] might not know this but ratings and

[15:31] reviews are like gold in the podcasting

[15:34] Universe they get podcasts in front of

[15:37] more faces more eyes more ears all the

[15:40] bits that you could have a podcast in

[15:42] front of that's what they do so it would

[15:44] help us enormously if you would consider

[15:47] going over to your favorite podcasting

[15:50] app especially if it's apple and giving

[15:54] us a few Stars maybe even five maybe

[15:58] even six if you can find a way to hack

[16:00] the system I wouldn't complain and um a

[16:03] review would also be wonderful we read

[16:05] them all and love them so thank you very

[16:08] much in advance let's just go out there

[16:10] and bewilder the world

[16:14] Mah on the podcast we we we kind of try

[16:18] to point towards or figure out figure it

[16:21] out where what the culture is doing

[16:24] because it's often quite subtle and that

[16:26] its effect on us is often quite subtle

[16:29] but but when we talk about like how do

[16:31] you go from the consensus which was

[16:33] sending you down that path right to

[16:35] coming to your own coming to your senses

[16:38] you didn't have a choice like why do you

[16:41] think your system was like absolutely

[16:45] not because I'm sure that there's so

[16:47] many women listening to this who are

[16:50] like I wish I'd had as big a red flag

[16:54] going into it cuz now it's 30 years

[16:56] later and I went all the way down that

[16:59] path

[17:00] I think that I am very lucky to have a

[17:03] very low tolerance for

[17:05] pain and I'm not kidding about that I

[17:07] think the more you can tolerate pain the

[17:10] longer you can stay in a system that is

[17:13] painful yeah that's my and um yeah you I

[17:16] mean you know and and the women in my

[17:20] The ancestral women in my family have

[17:22] Limitless tolerance for pain um they can

[17:25] take anything they can absorb anything

[17:28] they can come over any disappointment

[17:31] they can be neglected they can be so

[17:33] neglected and find a way to still wake

[17:36] up the next morning and do it again they

[17:38] can be so melt treated and still find a

[17:40] way my saving I've never thought of this

[17:43] before but my Saving Grace was that I am

[17:46] over

[17:47] sensitive um and so I'm a little bit of

[17:50] a canary in the coal mine right and now

[17:52] the thing that I've realized at at at a

[17:54] couple days I'll be 53 but now the

[17:56] wonderful thing I've realized is that

[17:58] the second I feel like oh no this is not

[18:03] this is awful like this is a

[18:05] navigational system yes um that I now

[18:07] really am grateful that I have I get out

[18:10] of things really quickly now you know

[18:12] like I get out of relationships with

[18:14] people really quickly I back away from

[18:15] things really quickly that don't feel

[18:17] right to me so what was happening when I

[18:20] was 30 um when I had my 30-year crisis

[18:23] my 30 crisis because I was supposed I

[18:25] promised my husband that I would we'd

[18:26] have kids when I was 30 and I instead I

[18:29] would

[18:29] was starving myself to death throwing up

[18:33] anything I tried to eat every part of my

[18:35] body broke down I had carpal tunnel

[18:37] syndrome my knees were I mean I was

[18:38] having physiological just meltdown like

[18:41] I was turning into a crazy woman I I

[18:43] called myself media which is ironic

[18:46] because was media du kill her kids

[18:47] anyway um but I was like literally

[18:50] pacing the halls of this beautiful

[18:51] Suburban house all night freaking out

[18:53] like a caged animal right and I didn't

[18:56] want to be I took as many anti

[18:59] depressants and anti- anxieties as I

[19:00] could to make that stop but my natural

[19:04] sensitivity was so huge because I'm

[19:07] super sensitive that I was going to die

[19:11] if I stayed right and something Glennon

[19:13] Doyle said to me the first time we ever

[19:14] met was I wonder why a woman has to

[19:16] almost die before she'll let herself

[19:18] change her life Wow you know um I'm not

[19:20] like that anymore I make changes very

[19:21] quickly without having to nearly die um

[19:24] but I also I was this weird combination

[19:26] of this highly sensitive and I was an

[19:28] artist

[19:29] you know so my work was creativity and

[19:32] like my life was destroying me you know

[19:34] um so my sensitivity goes into my

[19:36] creativity and it works but it went into

[19:37] my household and I'm like what's going

[19:39] on this is a nightmare you know um but

[19:42] um yeah so I think that I was lucky that

[19:45] I'm overly sensitive because I think if

[19:47] I were tougher and stronger and I could

[19:50] just stuff it and stuff it and mask it

[19:53] and muffle it and you know do whatever I

[19:55] had to do to get through it I would have

[19:57] I would have done what so many people do

[19:59] which is just I got a letter once the

[20:01] weirdest hate mail Ever After Eat Pray

[20:03] Love came out and the first line was

[20:05] you don't think I hate my marriage

[20:08] you know and it was this letter

[20:10] attacking me for leaving like I hate

[20:12] every minute of my marriage I hate being

[20:14] a mother I hate all this but you

[20:17] don't see me running away to Italy and I

[20:18] was like well good for you you found you

[20:21] found a way to stay I couldn't yeah yeah

[20:25] I'm the same way I was yeah I I went

[20:28] deeper into it than you did um but when

[20:31] I was trying to be a good Mormon wife

[20:33] you want you want some oppression I

[20:36] always say that the only thing the

[20:38] Mormons ask from their women is that

[20:40] that they breed well in captivity so I

[20:42] was going down that path and my whole

[20:44] body fell apart and I was like and I had

[20:46] three kids and I was like I could not

[20:48] move my hands I couldn't like I couldn't

[20:51] type yeah I couldn't either I a writer

[20:52] and I couldn't like and and I had

[20:54] doctors telling me you need wrist

[20:55] surgery you need knee surgery you've got

[20:58] an intestinal issue you've got like all

[21:00] of the stuff but it was actually just a

[21:02] full body every atom of my being in

[21:04] Rebellion saying we will kill you before

[21:07] we let you do this thing and I and I I

[21:10] actually I'm a very spiritual person I

[21:12] actually think that that was I think

[21:14] that the god of my understanding will do

[21:15] whatever it has to do to me to get me

[21:18] back on the right path that I'm supposed

[21:19] to be on and it's like I'm gonna I don't

[21:22] know how else to get your attention

[21:23] exactly to tell you not this not this

[21:26] not this but I was also in I'm a I'm a

[21:30] really Cooperative I like to make

[21:34] everybody happy I'm a Cooperative

[21:36] pleasing sweet person so I felt so

[21:39] incred my my obedience was I mean my

[21:42] obedience was look I I got married at 24

[21:44] and I worked hard and I bought a house

[21:46] and I have a husband I'm gonna have a

[21:47] kid and the Disobedience that I felt by

[21:50] breaking that was where my depression

[21:52] came from well I think you know it's

[21:54] interesting be because like Eat Pray

[21:57] Love was such a phenomenon like the

[22:00] Bible hasn't sold as many copies as Eat

[22:03] Pray Love and and then you've talked

[22:05] about how people who swear e Pray Love

[22:08] changed my life they they didn't read

[22:10] committed and I think it's because women

[22:14] have been got have gotten to this level

[22:16] of or had gotten to this level of

[22:18] suppression it's like the feminist

[22:20] Elizabeth Katie Stanton said um women

[22:23] have been systematically disadvantaged

[22:25] in the polity the legal legal system and

[22:31] uh what was the other one money money

[22:35] law politics that was it and she said my

[22:38] way of my mission in life is to and I

[22:42] thought she would say ease the burden

[22:44] but she didn't she said my mission is to

[22:46] deepen this disappointment in the hearts

[22:48] of women until they will suffer it no

[22:50] longer wow yeah and so that's where you

[22:53] got and I really think I mean tell me

[22:55] where I'm wrong here but the fact that

[22:57] that book here so hard and had so much

[23:01] influence is precisely because you were

[23:04] expressing what it's like to experience

[23:06] that your soul rebelling against the

[23:09] whole archetype of what you were

[23:10] supposed to be as a woman I mean I think

[23:13] that's Eat Pray Love may just be you

[23:15] know the way you figured it out and it

[23:18] helped a ton of other women do do it as

[23:20] well and that's the because that's what

[23:22] you did on the bathroom floor if you

[23:23] haven't read Eat Pray Love two of you um

[23:27] there's a copy in your house a copy in

[23:29] your house yes all your friends have it

[23:31] just borrow it for the night whatever

[23:33] but uh when when Eat Pray Love came out

[23:37] there was so much of the problem that

[23:39] has no name and there was it was you

[23:44] coming to your nature on that bathroom

[23:46] floor the culture was pressing in on you

[23:48] from everywhere and you found your true

[23:50] nature at the center and it would

[23:53] not it would not you dis you deepened

[23:56] your disappointment until you will

[23:58] suffer it no longer and I think all 13

[24:03] million people got that book and were

[24:05] trying to read their way out of the

[24:07] cultural trap that is marriage and I

[24:10] think probably men as well as women

[24:11] probably more women but men as well it's

[24:14] not a pretty picture for anybody the

[24:16] man's going to some hideous office with

[24:18] a noose around his neck with nothing to

[24:20] do but try to make money that's not

[24:23] really a life

[24:25] so how do you like as of now you said

[24:28] you back away quicker you um stay in

[24:32] touch with your nature much more closely

[24:35] like for the people out there who are

[24:37] going oh my God the culture is pressing

[24:39] in on me and I I don't like it either

[24:41] and I don't want to get to the point

[24:42] where I kill myself I want to start

[24:44] taking steps here sorry the self-help

[24:47] off author so um like is there a method

[24:51] Did You Eat Pray Love was this huge

[24:54] cataclysmic thing and then you had to go

[24:56] around the world to find yourself and

[24:59] now like when during the pandemic for

[25:02] example you had to do it alone in a room

[25:05] that's easier there's still pressure

[25:07] though there's still pressure like

[25:08] online pressure and stuff yeah so how do

[25:12] do we help people go from that kind of

[25:16] consensus to their senses like what what

[25:20] is your methodology for staying in touch

[25:21] with the part that said I will not I

[25:24] have to feel it physically there's no

[25:27] other way for me um because because my

[25:29] mind has been so

[25:31] distorted um by trauma and culture that

[25:34] I don't my mind is is is really not to

[25:37] be trusted a lot of times you know I've

[25:40] it's in the groundwater I've drunk so

[25:41] many messages it was in the mother's

[25:43] milk it was in the uterine fluids it's

[25:45] like it's all all of it and so so I have

[25:49] to feel what I physically feel like and

[25:53] you've taught me a lot about this Marty

[25:54] and you talk a lot about this and um

[25:57] I've been given

[25:59] uh this navigational system which is

[26:01] this actual physical body yeah um and

[26:04] and I find it so interesting that when I

[26:06] was going through that depression and

[26:07] anxiety because I was like I don't want

[26:09] to be this person who blows up I didn't

[26:11] want to be the person who blew up

[26:13] culture I wanted to be approved of and

[26:15] happy and loved um so I go to a doctor

[26:18] and the doctor would give me medication

[26:19] that would make me not be able to feel

[26:21] my body right not be able to feel like

[26:24] anti-anxiety medication will Tamp that

[26:26] down so you can't feel it y right and

[26:28] that would make me be able to stay in

[26:31] the in the block you know that was so

[26:34] oppressive and

[26:36] so I no one go off your mids because of

[26:39] what she just said don't no no don't no

[26:41] I have I I have great respect for it and

[26:43] there were times when I needed it but I

[26:45] will also say this I used to be on a lot

[26:47] of medication and I'm not on any anymore

[26:48] so I just want to lay that out there

[26:50] yeah like and and again don't don't do

[26:52] anything Hasty but I I don't even take

[26:55] it Advil PM to go to sleep anymore like

[26:57] it's it's really

[27:00] because I'm navigating my life based on

[27:02] what it physically feels like um so when

[27:05] I meet people who make me feel

[27:07] physically

[27:09] uncomfortable I do not how does it have

[27:12] come into your body what is the sense of

[27:14] not comfortable that some people it

[27:15] lives for me um right below my sternum

[27:19] um and it's like right behind my sternum

[27:21] there's almost a line from there's

[27:22] actually there's different feelings that

[27:24] I can feel but but the but and I also

[27:27] feel it um my hands start to shake huh

[27:30] um and but I grew up my hands shook all

[27:32] the time because I had a lot of anxiety

[27:33] in the Family household there was a lot

[27:35] of you know a lot of tension so I was

[27:37] used to walking around with shaky hands

[27:38] as a child just for one moment let's

[27:40] just yeah you had so much anxiety as a

[27:43] child that you were more used to your

[27:45] hands shaking than not shaking totally

[27:47] my hands shook my entire childhood my

[27:49] stomach hurt my entire childhood that

[27:50] was the Baseline that was normal you

[27:52] know like it was a high pressure

[27:54] high-intensity household in a high

[27:56] pressure high-intensity culture wow so

[27:58] it just feels

[28:00] um yeah I I won't I won't St I'll

[28:04] discontinue and I'm really I've gotten

[28:06] so much more honest yeah you know I've

[28:08] I've I've aborted things with people

[28:11] where I've just said I have no

[28:14] intellectual defense for this I had a

[28:15] conversation with somebody recently who

[28:17] wanted to work with me and um and then I

[28:20] felt like no this is not like my body

[28:23] didn't feel right around this person and

[28:24] I said I have no intellectual defense

[28:27] for the what I'm about to tell you but

[28:29] my intuition is telling me that this is

[28:31] not going to work and I and I have a

[28:33] long history of showing that when I

[28:35] override my intuition it's going to be a

[28:37] disaster it's gonna be a disaster for me

[28:39] for you so I'm just going to discontinue

[28:40] this now and I can't even tell you why I

[28:42] be on that I love that and um yeah so

[28:45] when I I trust the I trust the body

[28:47] response now um and and I went to a

[28:49] doctor where I was going through

[28:51] premenopause and I went to a doctor who

[28:53] put me on a whole bunch of medication

[28:55] and he was and and after a month I was

[28:58] like like this isn't it you know like so

[29:00] part of it is trying stuff like you know

[29:03] I I put my body into a situation and I

[29:05] see is this the situation and after a

[29:08] little while or a long while my body's

[29:10] like nope and then I take it back out of

[29:13] the situation and I did the same thing

[29:15] to him I said look I'm not a scientist

[29:17] I'm not a medical doctor I have nothing

[29:19] to base this on other than that I have

[29:21] intuition but I guide My Life by

[29:22] intuition and this doesn't feel right so

[29:24] I'm not going to continue this path so

[29:27] um I'll find something

[29:30] else like it's interesting because I

[29:32] I've when working with clients I found

[29:34] that everybody has their own compass

[29:36] needle you know the way it shows up and

[29:39] yours shows up in your solar plexus is

[29:41] probably coming from the gut um how do

[29:43] you feel it row because I think we all

[29:46] have this like there's a warning that

[29:48] comes into the body when we're not in a

[29:51] safe space or with a safe person yeah

[29:53] mine's always anxiety similar to Leah's

[29:56] it's always anxiety and I'm I'm also

[29:59] very hyp sensitive and I didn't somehow

[30:03] I didn't like one of the things we come

[30:04] up against when we talk about this stuff

[30:06] is I didn't get as much culture in my

[30:09] mother's milk as a lot of people had and

[30:13] that was such a blessing for me because

[30:15] I've been saying no to things cuz I it

[30:18] made me feel weird for a long time yeah

[30:21] um and there are Advantage advantages

[30:24] and disadvantages to that for sure but

[30:26] yeah I go into a very physical state of

[30:30] anxiety that is not anything to do with

[30:33] my brain it doesn't it doesn't feel as

[30:35] though it's anything to do with my brain

[30:37] it's very high discomfort and it's been

[30:39] a lot I've had to do a lot of um

[30:42] forensic sort of analysis after the

[30:45] after the event of going oh because I

[30:49] wasn't meant to do that something was

[30:52] trying to stop you from doing something

[30:56] like and they're throwing everything at

[30:57] you to try to stop you from doing

[30:59] something that's not good for you right

[31:03] the thing that's right exactly for for

[31:05] me but Liz the thing that I always come

[31:08] back around to is then there's that

[31:10] moment and you say that you're now

[31:12] really good at doing it quickly but when

[31:14] you're not you know gaunt and suicidal

[31:19] and your body's not falling apart

[31:21] because you're listening there's

[31:23] something that you don't get and and

[31:25] that's the the my body's falling part I

[31:28] can't and so there's this courage I feel

[31:31] like that we all have to kind of find

[31:34] when we want to go back out of that

[31:36] empty room and say okay culture I'm not

[31:41] going to do that and I'm going to say

[31:43] it's because of my intuition which the

[31:45] culture will laugh at because intuition

[31:48] and capitalism don't know how to talk to

[31:51] each other and so where do you find the

[31:54] courage and how do you do that in a

[31:56] practical way the saying and getting the

[31:58] courage to say no oh what a good

[32:00] question Rie um so I also just want to

[32:03] share what my sematic opposite of the no

[32:08] feels like what yes feels like to me is

[32:10] a belly full of warm vanilla

[32:12] pudding and I actually have come to call

[32:15] it the vanilla pudding warmth of

[32:18] Serenity calm and peace when I'm where

[32:21] I'm supposed to be with the people that

[32:23] I'm supposed to be with doing what I'm

[32:25] supposed to be doing and by supposed to

[32:27] I don't mean any I I mean my my own

[32:31] original software program that that the

[32:34] Universe gave to me when it's doing what

[32:36] it's supposed to be doing it feels like

[32:37] I have I have a belly full of warm

[32:39] vanilla pudding it's feels like melted

[32:41] chocolate it's yeah it's it's oxy that's

[32:44] what oxytocin feels like I guess it's

[32:46] just um it's just yummy this feels yummy

[32:49] and the more I get of the warm vanilla

[32:51] pudding in my belly the less I'm willing

[32:53] to give it up um so when I'm when I say

[32:57] no to things now what I'm saying no to I

[33:00] don't I think of it as saying yes to

[33:01] warm vanilla pudding um so I have to if

[33:04] I'm G to have more warm vanilla pudding

[33:06] I have to say no to this thing um and

[33:08] I'll give you some examples so when the

[33:10] pandemic hit and we went into um into

[33:14] lockdown I I was living in warm vanilla

[33:17] pudding I I was like I and I I

[33:20] recognized that I don't want to be

[33:22] insensitive to the incredible pain and

[33:25] harm and death that people went through

[33:26] with the pandemic but in my case being

[33:29] shut into a house having everything in

[33:31] your life canel I mean I I had 18 months

[33:34] of business stuff canel in one day just

[33:37] wiped off the calendar and and the world

[33:39] was like you have to stay home now by

[33:41] yourself my whole world became vanilla

[33:44] warm vanilla pudding to an extent that I

[33:46] had never before imagined because I had

[33:47] never stopped that much and I had never

[33:50] realized how yummy stopping felt and how

[33:54] delicious my routines became when it was

[33:56] just me alone in a house

[33:58] living with this great roommate myself

[34:01] who we have the same Hobbies we're into

[34:03] the same stuff like I love getting up

[34:05] early so does she I I like taking a bath

[34:08] and eating popcorn in the bathtub and

[34:09] watching the Great British baking show

[34:11] so does she like just finding these

[34:12] little hobbies and I didn't want to lose

[34:14] any of it it's the miracle of finding

[34:16] the perfect person to be with that

[34:17] everybody's trying to solve yeah that's

[34:19] right it's like Byron Katie always says

[34:21] the the one you've always been waiting

[34:22] for the love of your life as yourself so

[34:24] what happened was when the World opened

[34:26] again all these things started started

[34:28] being reintroduced right like suddenly

[34:31] social life came back professional life

[34:33] came back and I weighed each one and

[34:37] thought do I want to reintroduce it um

[34:40] because I had a really yummy vanilla

[34:42] pudding Vibe going there for a while now

[34:44] do I want to return to what I was doing

[34:46] before which was a lot of stuff that I

[34:48] didn't consciously even wonder do I want

[34:50] to do this do I like doing this do I

[34:52] like these people do I like these

[34:54] friends and I had a couple friends I had

[34:56] a couple friends who were

[34:59] very several um who are who I discovered

[35:02] when I came out of my warm vanilla

[35:04] pudding

[35:06] Solitude I experienced their energy to

[35:08] be very pushy um that they were they

[35:11] were like missiles they were sending

[35:14] texts all the time they were sending

[35:15] invites all the time and I tried a

[35:17] couple sort of subtle like hey you know

[35:19] I'm working on a book and I need some

[35:21] space and there's um I recently read

[35:23] that you can do with people something

[35:24] called the no test which is that when

[35:27] you make a newt or you have a new

[35:29] relationship to try out a no on them and

[35:31] see how it goes and if they react

[35:35] violently or or self- pityingly or um or

[35:39] you know pushing against that no that's

[35:42] a relationship you're going to want to

[35:43] discontinue because it's not going to

[35:44] get any better right so I did some no

[35:46] testing on some people where I was like

[35:49] hey I'm really kind of in my zone right

[35:50] now and I'm not doing anything and when

[35:52] the text came the next week well how

[35:55] about next week can we do this can we do

[35:56] that I finally realized ized wow I have

[35:59] to I have to ask some people to leave my

[36:01] life Wow and um and I did um I mean if

[36:04] you'd shown me this video or audio as a

[36:07] 30-year-old and said you will someday

[36:08] become a person who contacts somebody

[36:12] who they have been a friend with for a

[36:13] long time and says Hey listen I want to

[36:16] let you know that I'm shutting my life

[36:18] down a lot because I've discovered that

[36:21] I really mostly just love being alone

[36:24] and I want more of that and so I'm gonna

[36:27] be I really reduced my Social Circle to

[36:30] about six people and I can I see that

[36:33] you keep coming in and asking for more

[36:35] contact and I don't want to I don't want

[36:38] to ghost you and I don't want to um be

[36:41] constantly saying no to you I just want

[36:43] to let you know that I think I really

[36:44] just I'm going to ask that you step back

[36:47] and let me just live my quiet life now

[36:49] yeah and I did that a bunch of times

[36:51] after after the pandemic and and and I

[36:55] did it as with as much kindness as I

[36:57] could but they weren't stopping coming

[36:58] at me yeah and I had to stop it or else

[37:01] I was going to lose my vanilla pudding

[37:03] and it's really interesting that the

[37:06] technologies that we now enjoy were

[37:08] helping people come at you yeah I just

[37:11] read this book by Katherine May who self

[37:13] diagnosed at I think 38 on the autism

[37:17] spectrum and she's a brilliant writer

[37:19] and she talks about how she learned to

[37:21] mask her extreme sensitivity and her and

[37:24] she would have these things called White

[37:25] outs where she just couldn't cope with

[37:26] all the data coming into her brain she

[37:28] didn't know she was on the Spectrum she

[37:30] didn't know that till much later but one

[37:32] of the things she said that struck me as

[37:34] so why didn't I think of that was that

[37:37] she said if I had been born 150 years

[37:39] ago it wouldn't have been a great time

[37:42] to be a woman but there would not be

[37:43] flashing lights everywhere there would

[37:44] not be friendships with 200 people there

[37:47] would not be uh you

[37:50] know jet lag that would like she said

[37:53] all the things that trigger me would not

[37:56] have existed 15 years ago there wouldn't

[37:58] have been that many people there

[37:59] wouldn't have been the ability for that

[38:01] them to get in touch with you and it's

[38:03] kind of like the pandemic pulled back

[38:06] the culture which is pulling back the

[38:07] patriarchy which I think we have agreed

[38:10] is the root of the problem not you guys

[38:13] we love you but the patriarchy which is

[38:14] going to kill you too so it wants you to

[38:17] be Canon fodder so yeah I mean like can

[38:22] you just decide not to come back fully

[38:24] into that flashing lights culture that's

[38:26] what I've done and I got off social

[38:28] media too which I went through which was

[38:32] I felt scared and disobedient when I did

[38:34] that too I was like who do you think you

[38:36] are like this is the most important

[38:38] communication of the age but it didn't

[38:40] make me feel good I was real I really

[38:42] was like wow there's nothing for me here

[38:44] this makes me feel sick I think it makes

[38:47] everybody feel sick actually but like it

[38:48] makes me feel sick and I I have to go

[38:50] now I have to get a divorce from social

[38:53] media even though it was the same

[38:55] feelings I had when I got divorced from

[38:56] my first husband which is like are you

[38:58] allowed to don't you have to didn't you

[39:01] commit you've got you know all these

[39:03] followers don't you have to and it was

[39:04] like I really question now any voice

[39:08] that I have internalized that tells me

[39:11] you have to anything you know like I

[39:16] really pause and I'm like do I you know

[39:20] do I really because my God doesn't tell

[39:24] me

[39:26] that my God has never told me anything

[39:29] that begins with you have to um I'm more

[39:32] aligned these days with you get to yeah

[39:35] you get to get off social media if you

[39:37] want to you get to you get to ask

[39:41] boundary pushers to step back you get to

[39:43] spend time alone if that's what feels

[39:44] yummy to you I once knew a horse

[39:47] whisperer who said um he wanted to take

[39:49] out of his life the phrase you must or I

[39:53] will hurt you and I I just read this

[39:56] brilliant book called The Dawn of

[39:57] everything by two Davids I don't

[40:00] remember their last names two David

[40:02] people wrote it together and it's they

[40:03] looked at anthropology and archaeology

[40:06] to see why the world is so effed up

[40:08] right now and they did it's a 700 page

[40:12] book it's a vast Trove of research and

[40:14] what they found out was that everything

[40:16] started to go

[40:18] wrong culture started taking over other

[40:22] people a certain specific culture he

[40:25] they go back to Rome and what they say

[40:27] is this was the the first time somebody

[40:29] could say um I am I love you as your

[40:33] father and I will hurt you the other

[40:35] tribes and things they looked at they

[40:38] might hurt people and they had kids you

[40:40] know but they never hurt their kids ever

[40:44] like people from Native American

[40:45] communities would talk to

[40:46] anthropologists and say we never hit or

[40:49] yelled at a child before you people came

[40:52] and now it's like a toxin that spreads

[40:54] through the whole thing so that you must

[40:57] or I will hurt you like do a deep dive

[41:00] if you feel weird around anything or

[41:03] anybody and see if there's a trace of I

[41:05] must or it will hurt me and it loves me

[41:09] you know like all your followers on

[41:11] Facebook who would get enraged when you

[41:14] disappeared that's saying no you must or

[41:16] we will attack you and if it has that

[41:19] energy to it that is they weren't

[41:21] talking about feminism they were talking

[41:23] about why we're about to crash and burn

[41:26] like the of Rome yeah Rome fell because

[41:29] of that and now we've got it going again

[41:32] wow like we had a president who said a

[41:35] lot of you must I will hurt you yeah

[41:37] while he was in

[41:38] office he he's just the loudest

[41:40] vocalization of what this culture has

[41:43] always been yeah yeah um he's just its

[41:46] ultimate metastas metastasization I

[41:50] can't say that we were're thinking of

[41:52] doing this entire podcast with our

[41:55] tongues stuck to our mouth we thought

[41:57] that would be fun for every we just said

[41:59] that was the best baby talk I will

[42:00] answer your question in two ways first

[42:02] is a sociologist and second

[42:05] is baby the question that I have for for

[42:08] everybody listening is you

[42:11] know have you inherited a belief that

[42:13] you're not allowed to feel well and and

[42:16] I you know I I really did inherit that

[42:19] belief that you're not allowed to feel

[42:21] well who do you think you are and you're

[42:23] allowed to feel good and there are lots

[42:25] of things that this culture provides

[42:27] that will make you feel good right like

[42:29] lots of intoxicants lots of sedatives

[42:32] lots of distractions lots of things to

[42:34] consume that'll make you feel good

[42:35] you'll get that good good hit but that's

[42:38] not the same as feeling

[42:39] well and there are days now where I

[42:43] don't necessarily feel good but I feel

[42:46] well I heard it explained like that you

[42:48] could be there are times in my past

[42:50] where I felt really good but I wasn't

[42:52] doing

[42:53] well because I was consuming a lot of

[42:55] things that made me feel good but I was

[42:57] not at my Essence doing well you know

[42:59] and now I'm doing really well and

[43:02] sometimes I don't feel good because I'm

[43:03] feeling my feelings and I feel sad or I

[43:05] feel lonely or feel angry and doesn't

[43:07] feel good but but I'm doing really well

[43:11] that's um largely because I can feel

[43:13] yeah feelings it works better than Wine

[43:17] think of that and I think Ro and I have

[43:20] been talking about this we I I'm writing

[43:21] about self-regulation and how all of

[43:23] those are attempts to self-regulate when

[43:25] you find somebody who's you weren't an

[43:28] alcoholic or anything um people don't

[43:31] get the idea that Liz is a drug addict

[43:33] or whatever but I'm an addict yeah of

[43:36] situations of relationship I'm an addict

[43:39] yeah for sure and I've used more

[43:40] substances than I would like to admit to

[43:42] regulate myself yeah but but here's the

[43:44] thing if you're out there doing this and

[43:47] you don't see the way out like don't

[43:49] kick out the person who is trying to

[43:52] regulate your entire inner system if you

[43:55] if you talk to them as a separate Part

[43:57] of Yourself you'll find out they're

[43:58] doing their absolute best and they're

[44:01] trying to give you signals like we're

[44:02] sick we're sick we don't like this but

[44:05] we will regulate in this unhealthy way

[44:06] if we have to it's better than you dying

[44:09] yeah so I

[44:11] mean we've been talking about

[44:14] self-regulating and like looking at all

[44:17] the things we use to regulate I think

[44:18] you called it bottom line behaviors once

[44:21] and then there are behaviors that are

[44:23] much better at coping so like

[44:28] Rose said something the other day about

[44:30] just feeling that something that really

[44:34] helped stabilize

[44:36] things no couldn't do it

[44:39] anymore carbohydrates or something cuz

[44:41] she's got insulin resistance no it was I

[44:45] decided I wasn't going to have a glass

[44:46] of wine in the evening anymore for a

[44:49] while because I could feel myself

[44:52] waiting for like knockoff and and have a

[44:56] glass of wine and it was it was just it

[44:59] was more like it was in my mind too much

[45:01] I was sick of like being like you know

[45:04] we have our wine time and I have a nice

[45:06] glass of wine and then I was like but if

[45:08] I

[45:09] don't what's that going to be like you

[45:11] know and what was it have you because

[45:12] this I'm interested in hearing from both

[45:14] of you when you take away the familiar

[45:18] patterns that help you coope with living

[45:20] in the patriarchy what I think will

[45:21] happen is you'll suffer enough that you

[45:24] will uh tolerate the culture no more so

[45:27] I love what you said Liz about how you

[45:29] know anti-anxiety medications wine

[45:32] whatever is helping people regulate and

[45:35] feel okay in a situation cult not that

[45:38] is toxic wait what could you give some

[45:40] examples of what they might be if

[45:41] they're not actually substances like

[45:43] what are other ways that we reg because

[45:45] substances is easy people will be able

[45:47] to go oh yeah for sure watching TV

[45:49] flipping through your oh my gosh the

[45:51] dopamine hit from flipping through your

[45:52] phone we had such a drug I had a game

[45:56] that would had amazing haptics it made

[45:59] my hand feel like the world was

[46:01] happening in it and they knew they had

[46:04] something because when you go to renew

[46:05] your lives it's not $5 it's like $100

[46:08] and I was like I must it's shiny it

[46:11] makes my hand feel the world and yeah

[46:14] that was my regulator for a while and

[46:16] then Karen came and said um about these

[46:18] charges I like I'll delete it but it was

[46:22] hard yeah you know you probably went

[46:24] through withdrawal yeah I did I went

[46:26] through withdrawal when I got off in

[46:27] stagram like real withdrawal really like

[46:29] what was that like uh I felt incred I

[46:31] felt incredibly uncomfortable lonely sad

[46:34] scared jacked up agitated mostly fear um

[46:39] for me anything that I've ever put down

[46:41] like which is the the sort of recovery

[46:43] term for like not using it anymore has

[46:46] come with a period of withdrawal that

[46:48] has for me always felt like fear wow

[46:50] like what will I do now how will I be

[46:53] okay if I don't have this thing you know

[46:56] what did you do with that when you got

[46:57] off Instagram I felt

[46:59] it that I felt it and that's when I knew

[47:02] that for me this had become a drug

[47:04] because I was going through the

[47:06] withdrawal of I don't have my drug I

[47:07] don't have my comfort so I sat through

[47:09] it and you know I felt it I sat there

[47:12] and I felt the the the shakiness the

[47:15] jerkiness of wanting to reach for this

[47:17] thing I felt the sense of I don't I'm

[47:19] not connected anymore I'm not relevant

[47:21] anymore um you know I don't know what's

[47:23] going on in the more in the world nobody

[47:25] cares about me I'll be forgotten know

[47:27] all of these like deep psychological

[47:29] withdrawals that and then after a couple

[47:32] weeks I mean it was really difficult for

[47:34] the first few days and then it settled

[47:35] and then it settled and then what what

[47:38] what filled it was just well vanilla

[47:41] pudding like back came my initial

[47:44] initial factory settings of oh my God

[47:48] the world is so beautiful I'm going to

[47:49] go for a really long walk um and I had

[47:52] been wanting I'd been asking my higher

[47:55] power and my guides and my music to send

[47:57] me an idea for a novel I'd been asking

[47:59] for two years for two years I'd written

[48:02] in my journal almost every day hey

[48:03] anytime you guys have an idea for me for

[48:05] a novel I would love one and they would

[48:07] write back when we've got an idea for

[48:09] you you'll be notified that was the

[48:11] conversation that I had for two years

[48:12] and I have enough Trust of my creative

[48:14] process to believe I'll be notified you

[48:16] know like they'll let me know and then

[48:17] I'll do it I'll do what they tell me two

[48:20] weeks after I got off on Instagram got

[48:23] off Instagram got off on Instagram was

[48:25] what I used to be doing got off in

[48:28] the idea came wow for the book that I'm

[48:31] now almost finished you know and it's

[48:33] like there was no room for it right so

[48:35] like I had to get rid of this thing so

[48:37] that I could create this spaciousness

[48:39] for this thing that I didn't even know

[48:40] what it was that was going to come in

[48:42] wow I love it when that happens um this

[48:46] H it actually happened Rose stopped

[48:48] drinking a glass of wine ever it was not

[48:50] usually a big deal for her anyway but

[48:53] immediately got the plot of another

[48:56] novel and it's really really good it's

[48:59] something about like being available

[49:01] right it's like you're not available for

[49:05] whatever guidance or or opportunity or

[49:09] whatever and you guys being present is

[49:12] incredibly uncomfortable like that's the

[49:14] thing like I love that pemin talks about

[49:16] this because she says people always

[49:17] think that meditation is going to make

[49:19] them calm and ultimately it will because

[49:22] she said essentially what happens is

[49:23] you've got this really this mind that's

[49:25] like the surface of a lake with a big

[49:26] wind whing it across it so it's got

[49:28] white caps and spray flowing and all

[49:30] this stuff and it's chaotic and then you

[49:31] go into meditation and breath work and

[49:34] that water settles and then the surface

[49:35] of the lake is clear and people think

[49:38] that's going to make them calm but it

[49:40] doesn't because now you can see what's

[49:41] at the bottom of the lake you can see

[49:43] the the Shipwreck and the Industrial

[49:45] Waste and the garbage and like the

[49:48] corpses and everything that you've been

[49:49] not seeing right right so to actually

[49:52] have to be present this is I wrote about

[49:54] this in NE pray love how incred I was

[49:56] crawling out of my skin at the ash

[49:57] sitting in meditation um on and on it's

[50:00] uncomfortable if you're not used to

[50:02] feeling it's uncomfortable to sit and

[50:05] feel but what happens if you can sit and

[50:08] feel and become an antenna that receives

[50:11] signals and is that you start to receive

[50:13] signals suddenly you've got inspiration

[50:15] suddenly you've got ideas like

[50:17] everything you're available but it's not

[50:20] necessarily this is why I say there are

[50:21] days I don't feel good yeah but I always

[50:24] feel well um and when I don't feel good

[50:28] you know when I feel like sad or or

[50:31] alone or hurt or angry I'm like and I'm

[50:34] and sometimes I I'm afraid I'll get

[50:35] carried away by it these days I just

[50:37] think how

[50:38] incredible that I used to not be able to

[50:41] let myself feel this I would have

[50:43] reached for I mean I had a subscription

[50:45] for Xanax for prescription subscription

[50:47] it came every month Time Life presents

[50:50] Xanax I mean I had Xanax and I always

[50:52] had an emergency Xanax in every

[50:55] pocketbook that I ever owned long I mean

[50:58] like you know back when I was standing

[51:00] on stage giving people life coaching

[51:02] advice I had Xanax in my pocket because

[51:04] the minute those feelings of discomfort

[51:06] would come up I'd be like that's got to

[51:08] stop yeah you know I had this last night

[51:10] like last night I went through this wave

[51:12] of just I don't know why like things

[51:14] come in waves I went through this wave

[51:15] of Sorrow I was thinking about rehea and

[51:18] I was laying there in bed and my heart

[51:19] achd you know I could feel it my

[51:21] physical heart was aching in grief and I

[51:24] thought wow there was a time a couple

[51:26] years ago where I would have just

[51:27] reached right over into this right into

[51:31] this very bedst stand and there would

[51:33] have been sleeping pills and there would

[51:35] have been Xanax and I would have created

[51:37] some sort of combo and and then I would

[51:38] have gone downstairs and made some

[51:40] buttered noodles and I would have

[51:42] muffled and suffocated this feeling any

[51:44] way that I could because it's because it

[51:46] hurts but instead last night I just laid

[51:49] there and I felt this

[51:51] hurts you know and I thought what a rare

[51:54] Bliss it is to be able to finally feel

[51:57] feel all the feelings that my culture

[51:58] has told me are not allowed this is the

[52:01] hurt of pain I knew I was going to see

[52:03] you guys today I always feel nostalgic

[52:05] for rehea when I see you because she

[52:06] loved you so much I always feel so sad

[52:08] that she's not in the car with me coming

[52:10] to see you and I was feeling that last

[52:13] night and I just felt it you know I had

[52:16] my hand on one hand on my heart and

[52:18] because I get it when I get a lot of

[52:19] grief I get like a cramp in my shoulder

[52:22] because it's almost like a tiny little

[52:24] heart attack right like you can whenever

[52:26] people have heart attacks they feel it

[52:27] down their arm so I get a cramp in my

[52:29] shoulder and down my arm so I had one

[52:31] hand on my heart and the other one just

[52:33] holding my shoulder and I just laid

[52:36] there and I just kept saying to that

[52:38] pain I see you I see you and I love you

[52:42] I see you and I'm not going anywhere I

[52:45] see you I see you I know I see you that

[52:48] hurts doesn't it I see you I see you I

[52:50] see you and within 45 minutes or an hour

[52:55] which might seem like a really long time

[52:56] to be in pain

[52:57] but it settled you know because it just

[53:00] needed to be seen and loved yeah and it

[53:02] didn't have to be muffled it didn't have

[53:04] to be pilled away and then I fell asleep

[53:07] and I got to come over here without a

[53:08] hangover from taking sleeping pills last

[53:10] night right and feeling like wow it's

[53:12] amazing that I loved somebody that much

[53:14] that all these years later just knowing

[53:16] that I'm going to drive to see her

[53:17] favorite people without her makes my

[53:19] heart hurt it

[53:21] should it should make my heart hurt that

[53:24] is an accurate feeling so that's what

[53:27] I'm learning about my hypers sensitivity

[53:29] is that all of these feelings that I

[53:31] medicated and and when you were saying

[53:33] what do you use if not drugs I used

[53:34] people that's why I was always in such

[53:37] intense relationships I used people as

[53:39] sedatives I used people as stimulants

[53:42] you know I used people as sedatives and

[53:43] I used rehea as a sedative and a

[53:45] stimulant she was a speedball right she

[53:47] was heroin and cocaine like you know I

[53:49] used people to regulate my nervous

[53:52] system and now any day what I consider

[53:55] sobriety for me is any day where I don't

[53:57] use anybody to change my internal life

[54:01] is a day where i'm emotionally sober wow

[54:03] and that is like balancing on the head

[54:05] of a pin right it's wild it's a wild

[54:08] experience to be alive it's supposed to

[54:12] be do you find I don't know if you would

[54:14] agree with this but one of the things

[54:15] that I find with that letting yourself

[54:18] feel it stuff that Marty introduced me

[54:21] to this idea of

[54:23] shards like where I remember when I

[54:27] don't know we hadn't been together long

[54:28] I was having a day of feeling it and and

[54:32] what Marty said to me which felt so true

[54:35] and continues to feel true for me is she

[54:39] said you you've been feeling this this

[54:41] whole time anyway like you've that is

[54:43] something that you have been carrying

[54:45] around every day and now it's coming out

[54:48] which is really you know gets your

[54:50] attention and you really feel it but

[54:52] it's a Shard and then when it comes out

[54:55] it's one less shard that you're carrying

[54:58] around and there you'll be that much

[54:59] lighter and and this is just the time to

[55:01] to let it work its way out and I like

[55:05] part of it is that wow it makes the

[55:07] feeling it so much easier on me and it

[55:13] also I I have it has been my experience

[55:16] that after not distracting not doping

[55:19] not picking up the phone not picking up

[55:21] the

[55:21] pills that I do feel lighter after

[55:24] letting myself you know and I think

[55:26] about the pachin metaphor of the ocean

[55:29] is that I think the water gets a little

[55:30] bit clearer each time right because you

[55:33] you've pulled one of the corpses out

[55:35] yeah you're pulling out the the 55

[55:37] gallon drum filled with toxic waste

[55:40] right and like you're cleaning it up but

[55:42] yeah the first Glimpse when you look

[55:44] down and for the first time you see it

[55:46] without distraction it can be shocking

[55:49] yeah it's j and it's all part of you so

[55:51] each Shard is a represent is a part of

[55:54] you it's like something very traumatic

[55:56] happens part splits off and becomes the

[55:58] carrier for that pain and then it may

[56:02] start drinking or something and you feel

[56:03] like you're not in control because it's

[56:05] not what you identify as self It's A

[56:08] Shard and and what you just said so

[56:11] brilliantly Liz and I left out of of

[56:15] what I told you is as The Shard comes

[56:18] out no matter how it hurts it is

[56:21] something innocent that wants your love

[56:23] it doesn't matter if I mean rea had

[56:27] years of Addiction on heroin and cocaine

[56:30] there wasn't a single time she took a

[56:32] hit of drugs that it wasn't an innocent

[56:34] person trying to take care of the whole

[56:36] world absolutely so to look at each

[56:38] Shard as it comes out and not even say

[56:40] oh I'm so glad you're gone but I see you

[56:43] I love you you can come back if you like

[56:46] and what happens when you do that

[56:47] practice is that all the little shards

[56:50] come back you know the corpses come out

[56:52] the toxic waste comes out but then there

[56:54] are like beautiful urns that are carried

[56:57] by mermaids around and you go into the

[56:59] mystical magical part of your

[57:02] brain and because all those shards are

[57:04] available to do whatever you want and

[57:06] what they want to do is create and we

[57:10] all create partly because we're super

[57:12] sensitive we're can like we couldn't

[57:15] tolerate life it was making us super

[57:17] sick and then we started loving our

[57:20] shards and those shards said how about

[57:22] we write a book some of them just said I

[57:25] don't want to go on just

[57:28] and that's good

[57:29] too I just want to

[57:31] snuggle should we go cuddles a bit I

[57:35] think we should yeah so at the end

[57:39] traditionally Do You Feel Complete I

[57:41] Feel Complete Do You Feel Complete

[57:42] Lizzie I Feel Complete whenever I'm with

[57:44] you too A for real we didn't even get

[57:47] you're my vanilla puding friends

[57:49] choosing friend as family um which is

[57:52] another thing you've done and it's a

[57:54] whole another topic we could get into on

[57:56] different hour let's get her back now

[57:59] that we've got the microphone all right

[58:02] so we we have to say stay wild in unison

[58:04] at the end so one 2 3 stay

[58:09] wild we hope you're enjoying bewildered

[58:12] if you're in the USA and want to be

[58:13] notified when a new episode comes out

[58:16] text the word wild to

[58:19] 57873

[58:21] 0144 we're also on Instagram our handle

[58:25] is bewildered podcast you can follow us

[58:27] to get updates hear funny Snippets and

[58:29] outtakes and chat with other fans of the

[58:32] show bewildered is produced by Scott

[58:34] forer with support from the brilliant

[58:36] team at MBI and remember if you're

[58:39] having fun please rate and review and

[58:42] stay Wild

Martha Beck
ArtistMartha Beck

Bestselling author, coach and speaker Martha Beck blends science, spirituality and humor in Wayfinding, her approach to finding direction and happiness in your own life.

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Childless-by-choiceSingle-womenElizabeth-gilbertMarriage-benefit-puzzlePatriarchy

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On the Bewildered podcast, Elizabeth Gilbert argues that the hostility is not just opinion but a script that benefits a particular social structure, and that it reacts with rage and contempt when a woman chooses that path rather than facing circumstances beyond her control. The episode description frames the discussion around the lies that benefit the patriarchy. Gilbert sees the choice itself as what exposes the script as optional.
Gilbert uses the phrase to describe a body of sociological research that she says has puzzled researchers, because married women's quality of life appears to fall across financial, physical, and emotional measures. She cites declines in finances and health, a shorter life expectancy, and higher rates of depression, anxiety and suicide, with worse results as children are added. She says she is not sure about every comparison in the research and suggests readers check the studies directly.
Gilbert said she married young and set out to have children, but her body and being refused, leading to a full mental, physical and psychological breakdown. She believed something was wrong with her until she gave up the expectation, after which, in her words, her life 'got better and better and better.' She treats the body's refusal as information rather than a malfunction.
At her partner's funeral, a relative cited a Barbara Bush Vassar commencement speech to claim that a life without children is pointless. Gilbert looked around at four childless friends and laughed, saying 'I guess our lives are pointless you guys.' The moment illustrates how a cultural script can clash with the full lives of the people it dismisses.
Gilbert argues on the podcast that across the measures she describes, research shows married women doing worse than single women, and she says she is not aware of a single measure where married women do better. She is careful to note gaps in her own knowledge of certain comparisons. Anyone looking into this should consult the underlying studies and not rely on a single summary.
Gilbert's story suggests treating persistent bodily resistance, such as breakdowns or refusal, as information about what your life cannot accommodate rather than as failure. The episode description also lists trusting the wisdom of the body as a central theme of the conversation. Consider consulting a trusted health professional alongside your own reflection when physical symptoms are involved.

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