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Inspiration

Why Some People Click Instantly and Others Never Do

Oprah Winfrey
Oprah Winfrey
Nov 3, 2026
9 min read

From Oprah

Watch · 8

Adam Grant, the organizational psychologist and bestselling author, spent an hour with Oprah Winfrey to discuss his ninth book, Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World, and the question that drives it: why does connection feel effortless in some rooms and impossible in others? The conversation moves from a classroom full of over 100 students to a penguin courtship ritual, from the loneliness that is meant to make us reach out to a four-year rift that began with a snap judgment. Underneath it is a practical argument. Vibe is not a personality gift handed to a lucky few. It is a set of behaviors that can be observed, practiced, and reverse-engineered, and Grant has spent years trying to do exactly that.

Read · 7 sections

Why does one conversation go nowhere while a stranger clicks instantly?

Grant says the book began with a feeling he couldn't shake. He would walk into an interaction with someone he knew well, they would get along fine on paper, and yet he would stumble through it, feeling off. Later that same day he would meet a stranger and find instant chemistry. "It just struck me that this is a big puzzle," he told Winfrey at 1:12 into the episode. Why is vibing effortless in some situations and not others? And how do you vibe with more of the people, more of the time?

That whiplash is the right place to start, because it rules out the easy explanation. If connection were simply a matter of who you already know, the close friend should always win. Instead, the variable seems to be something in the moment itself: the attention, the curiosity, the sense that the other person is being seen. Grant's project is to pull that variable apart.

Could a shy kid learn to create a room's energy?

Grant is candid that he did not start out as the warm, easy presence he is now trying to describe. He called himself a shy, nerdy, introverted kid, and his friends gave him a nickname, "Mr. Facts." He admitted he didn't take it as a compliment at the time. Winfrey pushed back, suggesting there was envy and respect mixed into the teasing. Grant said he didn't see it then, but he'd take her word for it.

The turning point came in college, in a personality psychology class taught by Brian Little. Grant's description of Little is the emotional center of the episode. Little was, by Grant's account, a magnetic lecturer who "electrified" the room with his knowledge. Then he revealed that he was an extreme introvert, so much so that he would run to hide in the bathroom after lectures to avoid interacting with students. The reveal changed how Grant saw the problem. "If Brian can learn to do this, maybe I could, too," Grant recalled thinking.

What Grant noticed next is the core of his argument. Little was creating an electric charge in a class of more than 100 people, and he did it partly through structure. In one lecture he asked the room, "Did you know it's physically impossible to lick your elbow?" Students started trying, and Little joked that the extroverts were trying to lick their neighbors' elbows. The class burst out laughing. Grant described the effect as giving students "the freedom and the courage to have deeper conversations with each other." He made more good friends in that class, he said, than he had in the rest of college.

"I wanted to try to figure out how to be more like Brian, but I also wanted to reverse engineer what was he doing to create that magical vibe."

— Adam Grant, on the Oprah podcast (around 5:04)

That phrase, reverse-engineering the magic, is the methodological heart of Vibe. Grant is not asking readers to become Brian Little. He is asking what Little did, and whether the parts can be copied by someone who is nothing like him.

What is loneliness actually telling us?

Winfrey framed the stakes plainly: human connection is one of the most pressing problems of the moment, and many people are spending more time alone than at any point in their lives. Grant's answer draws on the evolutionary logic of the feeling. Loneliness, he explained, is meant to be a signal. Its evolutionary purpose is "to signal that we're being excluded," and that signal is supposed to prompt us to reach out, to connect, to reconnect. The trouble, in his telling, is that many people feel the signal and have no idea what to do with it.

This reframing matters because it turns a shameful feeling into information. Loneliness is not proof that you are defective. It is an alarm that is working, but it does not come with an instruction manual. Vibe is, in part, that manual. Grant's answer begins with a small, deliberately modest tool.

What is pebbling, and why does a small gesture work?

Grant calls the tool pebbling, and he loves the word. It is named after a penguin mating ritual: some penguins collect smooth, shiny stones and present them to a potential mate, signaling, in effect, that they would be a good partner and that the two could build a nest together. The human version, Grant suggested, is the gesture of sending someone else something that caught your attention. An article you loved. A reel you watched. A meme that struck a chord.

He was emphatic that this is not permission to spam. "I'm not saying you should go and spam people with random junk from the internet," he said. A good pebble is specific. It is the show that reminded you of someone you haven't talked to in years, or the thing you realize a new acquaintance would love. The pebble works because of what it reveals. In his words, it is "a little bid for connection," a gesture of care that flexes your memory and shows that you have paid enough attention to know what the other person would find interesting.

Winfrey took the idea one step further and suggested that saying why you sent it may be even better: "This reminded me of you," or that someone inspired you because of something they did for you. Grant agreed that naming the reason helps the vibe. The pebble becomes more than a link. It becomes evidence of being seen, which is the phrase Grant uses when he describes what it means to be personal. "Being personal says I see you," he wrote in the book, and Winfrey read it aloud.

The implication is useful for anyone who feels stuck. Connection does not always require a big conversation or a shared life history. It can be built out of small, precise acts of noticing, repeated enough that the other person learns you are paying attention.

Can friction actually make a relationship stronger?

The episode's most surprising turn is when Winfrey asked whether a little friction in a relationship can be beneficial. Grant said it can, and then he told a story that is not flattering to him. He and the vulnerability researcher Brené Brown had a public feud. Grant recounted that he swore to Winfrey he would never speak to her again, and that the two of them did not communicate for the next four years. The rift began with a snap judgment, the kind of quick verdict about a person that the episode repeatedly warns can block connection.

Grant's willingness to tell this story is itself a lesson. Friction is not automatically destructive, and it is not automatically a sign that a relationship is failing. But when two people are quick to judge and slow to revisit their judgments, a small disagreement can harden into years of silence. The episode treats judgment as something you can notice and interrupt, not a fixed fact about another person.

Grant's segment on snap judgments was among the most candid moments in the conversation, and it reads differently after the four years of silence he described. The lesson is not that conflict is good. It is that the same instinct that makes us quick to judge can also make us quick to leave, and the cost of that is often a relationship we never get back.

What do an astronaut and a basketball coach add to the argument?

The episode also brings in two guests whose work tests the principles in high-stakes settings. According to the episode's description, NASA astronaut Cady Coleman explains how she learned to vibe with her crew and came to trust them before a near shuttle disaster in space. The description also says NBA legend Joe Dumars explains how he builds a team culture on a roster he has deliberately filled with difficult and volatile players. Their stories extend Grant's central claim: trust and vibe are not soft extras. In environments where a wrong read can cost lives or a season, they are infrastructure.

Grant's central point holds across those settings. Vibe is a function of attention, specificity, and willingness to revisit first impressions. The astronaut, the coach, the professor in a packed lecture hall, and the friend who sends a well-chosen article are all doing some version of the same thing.

Where to go from here

If the episode leaves you with one practical question, make it this: where in your life are you running on the first impression? Grant's whiplash story suggests that most people already know who they click with. The harder move is to notice the people you have stopped trying to reach, and to send one specific, honest pebble. Name what reminded you of them. Say why. Then see what happens.

To go deeper, read the book itself, Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World, and watch the full episode for the Brian Little story, the Brené Brown account, and the rest of the conversation on marriage, family, and friendship. Grant's argument is that vibe can be learned. The episode is a good place to start learning it.

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Transcript

[0:00] This episode of the Oprah podcast is

[0:02] presented by our partner AT&T.

[0:05] >> You say human connection is one of the

[0:07] most pressing problems in our world.

[0:09] [music]

[0:10] >> a lot of people spending more time alone

[0:12] than they ever have at any point in

[0:14] their life and they feel like their

[0:15] relationships [music] are empty, their

[0:17] interactions are missing something and

[0:19] the evolutionary purpose of loneliness

[0:21] is actually to signal that we're being

[0:23] excluded and that's supposed to prompt

[0:25] us to reach out, to connect, to

[0:26] reconnect, but a lot of people don't

[0:28] know how.

[0:29] >> So, you say that a little friction in a

[0:31] relationship can actually be beneficial.

[0:33] >> Brené Brown and I, we had a public feud

[0:36] and I swore Oprah that I would not talk

[0:38] to her ever again and we didn't

[0:39] communicate for the next 4 years.

[0:40] >> Really?

[0:44] Hello and welcome. I'm glad to be here

[0:46] with the only Oprah podcast and I know

[0:48] y'all are glad cuz y'all love Adam

[0:49] Grant. How do we know? Because he had

[0:51] y'all looked at that last show, I have

[0:53] to tell you, so many people, like 4

[0:55] million people watched that last show

[0:57] that we did together. So, he's written a

[0:59] new book about trying to have good

[1:01] vibes.

[1:02] >> [laughter]

[1:03] >> He's a New York Times best-selling

[1:05] author, renowned organizational

[1:07] psychologist. Is that how you define

[1:09] yourself?

[1:10] >> As far as I know.

[1:11] >> Okay.

[1:12] Adam Grant is out with his ninth book

[1:15] now, Vibe, The Secrets of Strong

[1:18] Connections in a Lonely World. Love that

[1:22] title.

[1:23] And I welcome you again.

[1:25] >> Thank you, Oprah. Can I just take you

[1:26] everywhere? I just want to export your

[1:28] vibe to every interaction I have.

[1:29] >> I think we have a good vibe together,

[1:31] but what would make you come up with

[1:34] this idea? What How did this come to

[1:36] you? I was asking you before

[1:38] we even started, like, what is your

[1:40] process? You're one of the smartest

[1:42] thinkers on the planet. You are and you

[1:45] know it, so don't even try to act like,

[1:47] "Oh, no, not me." So, you're one of the

[1:49] smartest thinkers on the planet and so

[1:51] are you just thinking all the time? Do

[1:53] you Are you writing things down in your

[1:55] computer when they or you're in your on

[1:57] your iPad? Do you Are your notes filled

[1:59] with ideas? How do How How does it work?

[2:01] >> I mean, I'm definitely thinking and

[2:03] writing all the time. In fact, I carry a

[2:05] little notebook everywhere. And I can't

[2:08] read half of what I write, but

[2:09] >> Oh, so you're not doing it on your

[2:11] notes.

[2:11] >> I'm scribbling usually first and then

[2:14] typing. I think this this book really

[2:15] came out of just having this whiplash

[2:19] experience of

[2:21] I I go into an interaction and it's with

[2:23] somebody I know really well and we get

[2:25] along great and I just stumbled my way

[2:27] through it. And it was awkward and I

[2:30] felt like I was off. Why am I so bad at

[2:32] this?

[2:33] And then later that day I met a stranger

[2:36] and we had instant chemistry. And it

[2:39] just it it struck me that this is a big

[2:41] puzzle. Like, why is it so easy and

[2:44] effortless to vibe in certain situations

[2:46] and not in others and how can we vibe

[2:48] with more of the people more of the

[2:49] time?

[2:50] >> Well, this is what struck me that on the

[2:52] very first page, prologue even, you

[2:55] write, "I love people, but for a long

[2:57] time I struggled to connect with them."

[3:01] But something opened up for you when

[3:03] you're in a class with a professor,

[3:04] Brian Little. What happened?

[3:06] >> Well, I was I was definitely a very shy,

[3:09] nerdy, introverted kid. And I think in a

[3:12] lot of my interactions people would just

[3:13] roll their eyes and actually growing up

[3:15] my friends called me Mr. Facts, Oprah.

[3:17] And this I don't think that was a

[3:19] compliment.

[3:19] >> Yeah.

[3:20] >> [laughter]

[3:20] >> They were making fun of me.

[3:22] And you know, I I think that

[3:23] >> Well, they were making fun of you, but

[3:24] they really they there is a level of

[3:27] envy and and respect in there, too.

[3:29] >> If that's true, I did not see it at the

[3:31] time. But I I'll take your word for it.

[3:34] But you know, I got I got to college and

[3:36] I think I you know, I had a bunch of

[3:37] friends, but it was sometimes hard to

[3:40] make a deep connection with other

[3:41] people.

[3:42] And then I wandered into Brian Little's

[3:44] personality psychology class. And Brian

[3:47] is the most charismatic speaker I've

[3:50] ever seen. He electrified us with his

[3:52] knowledge. And then he revealed that he

[3:54] was an extreme introvert. So introverted

[3:56] that he would run to hide in the

[3:57] bathroom after lectures so he didn't

[3:59] have to interact with students.

[4:00] >> Wow.

[4:01] >> Cuz he was going to get overwhelmed. And

[4:02] I saw that, and I said, "Okay, if Brian

[4:05] can learn to do this, maybe I could,

[4:07] too."

[4:08] And I noticed that he was creating an

[4:10] electric charge in our classroom. He was

[4:12] getting us so excited and so curious.

[4:14] >> in the class?

[4:15] >> There were There were over 100.

[4:16] >> Oh, okay. So, this is a big class.

[4:18] >> Yeah, he was He was giving lectures, and

[4:20] I made more good friends in that class

[4:22] than I had pretty much the rest of

[4:24] college.

[4:24] >> Because of the vibe he created.

[4:27] >> The vibe he created, but also the way

[4:28] that he changed our interactions. So, he

[4:31] would come into a lecture and say, "Did

[4:33] you know it's physically impossible to

[4:35] lick your elbow?" And then people would

[4:36] start trying, and he'd say, "Oh, well,

[4:38] the extroverts are trying to lick their

[4:39] neighbor's elbow." And we'd burst out

[4:41] laughing, and he gave us the freedom and

[4:44] the courage to have deeper conversations

[4:47] with each other, and to really connect

[4:49] in a way that we hadn't before.

[4:50] >> And so, when you were in that classroom,

[4:53] were you thinking, "I want to be like

[4:54] that, or I want to somehow figure out

[4:57] what that thing is?"

[4:59] >> Both.

[5:00] >> Both.

[5:00] >> Both. I wanted to try to figure out how

[5:02] to be more like Brian, but I also wanted

[5:04] to reverse engineer what was he doing to

[5:06] create that magical vibe.

[5:08] >> And you say You say, "Human connection

[5:10] is one of the most pressing problems in

[5:13] our world." For anyone listening,

[5:15] they're just I have to say trying to get

[5:17] through their own day. We know that. So,

[5:20] how can they recognize what they're

[5:23] missing from human connection? I think

[5:26] if you don't have it, do you know you

[5:28] don't have it? How is it, do you think,

[5:30] impacting

[5:31] just the everyday person?

[5:33] >> I think some people are are acutely

[5:35] aware of it.

[5:36] >> Yeah.

[5:36] >> Um we have a lot of people spending more

[5:38] time alone than they ever have at any

[5:40] point in their life, and they feel like

[5:42] their relationships are empty, their

[5:44] interactions are missing something, and

[5:46] the evolutionary purpose of loneliness

[5:48] is actually to signal that we're being

[5:51] excluded, and that's supposed to prompt

[5:53] us to reach out, to connect, to

[5:55] reconnect, but a lot of people don't

[5:56] know how.

[5:58] And I think that's that's the real

[5:59] challenge that I wanted to take on with

[6:00] Vibe.

[6:01] >> Well, this is what you do, and early on

[6:03] in the book, you do that so well. You

[6:05] say, "Being personal says I see you."

[6:08] You say a powerful way to be personal is

[6:10] something you call pebbling. So, let's

[6:12] describe that for us.

[6:14] >> I love pebbling.

[6:15] >> Yeah.

[6:15] >> So, it's named after a mating ritual

[6:17] that some penguins do. What they'll do

[6:19] is they'll collect these smooth, shiny

[6:21] stones and then present them to a

[6:23] potential mate. And it's it's sort of a

[6:25] way of signaling, "Look, I I'd be a good

[6:27] partner. We could build a nest

[6:28] together."

[6:28] >> Mhm.

[6:29] >> And I think the digital equivalent of

[6:31] pebbling today is when you send somebody

[6:34] else an article you loved, a reel you

[6:37] watched, a meme that struck a chord with

[6:39] you.

[6:39] >> pebbling.

[6:40] >> Yeah, that's a little pebble. And I want

[6:42] to be clear, Oprah. I'm not saying you

[6:44] should go and spam people with random

[6:45] junk from the internet, right?

[6:47] >> Right.

[6:47] >> A great pebble is you watched a show and

[6:50] it reminded you of somebody you haven't

[6:52] talked to in a few years. Or you realize

[6:54] somebody you just met would love it and

[6:56] you send it to them.

[6:57] And that is a little bid for connection.

[6:59] It's a gesture of care and you're

[7:01] flexing your memory. You're showing,

[7:02] "Look, I've paid enough attention to you

[7:04] to see what you would find interesting

[7:06] and I I wanted to take the time to share

[7:08] that with you."

[7:08] >> And isn't it even better if you actually

[7:10] say that? If you actually say, "This

[7:13] reminded me of you." Or this uh inspired

[7:17] me because you did blah blah blah blah

[7:19] blah for me, right? That That even helps

[7:21] the vibe.

[7:22] >> the the research on this shows that if

[7:24] you send somebody a pebble and you just

[7:26] say, "Hey, you know, I I noticed this

[7:27] and I was thinking of you." It brings

[7:29] you closer together and it can help you

[7:31] get back in touch if you've been out of

[7:33] contact.

[7:33] >> that.

[7:34] >> Are you a pebbler, Oprah?

[7:35] >> I'm a pebbler, but more more more often

[7:37] people are pebbling me. I I get a lot of

[7:40] pebbles.

[7:40] >> Too many?

[7:41] >> Yeah, cuz I can't I can't keep up with

[7:43] all the pebbles.

[7:44] I'd never heard [music] of pebbling

[7:46] before, but it makes sense because so

[7:48] many of us, we do it.

[7:50] >> [music]

[7:50] >> It's a reminder that even the smallest

[7:52] gesture can create a meaningful

[7:54] connection, something [music] our

[7:55] partners at AT&T believe in, too.

[7:59] I've always believed that one of the

[8:01] greatest [music] gifts we can give

[8:02] another person is our full attention. To

[8:07] really listen, to show up, and to let

[8:09] them know they've been heard. Genuine

[8:12] connection is something I believe in,

[8:15] and so do our partners at AT&T. It's not

[8:17] just [music] attention to the words that

[8:20] someone is saying, but what they're

[8:22] really trying to tell us. Because I've

[8:24] said [music] this for years, true

[8:26] communication is that moment when

[8:29] somebody knows they've been heard and

[8:32] seen. [music] That's what I value in

[8:34] every conversation here on the Open

[8:35] podcast. We talk, we listen, we ask the

[8:39] questions that can lead us to something

[8:41] deeper, an [music] exchange of ideas

[8:43] that I hope resonates with you. What we

[8:45] do with that connection is what matters.

[8:47] [music]

[8:48] And sometimes that kind of connection

[8:50] begins with something very simple,

[8:53] picking up the phone to share good news,

[8:56] to hear [music] the voice of someone

[8:58] who's made a difference in your life, or

[9:00] just to say, "I'm here." Because AT&T is

[9:04] there [music] when the connection

[9:05] matters. And connecting

[9:09] changes everything.

[9:14] >> You write that when we don't manage the

[9:16] vibe, we make mistakes, and a vibe can

[9:18] become a matter of life and death. How

[9:21] so?

[9:21] >> I think the the most striking study I've

[9:23] seen on this is Hackman and Pisano. What

[9:25] they do is they study a cardiac

[9:26] surgeons, and they want to know, do you

[9:28] get better with practice? And most of us

[9:30] would assume the answer is yes. Yes. But

[9:32] what they see is it doesn't seem to help

[9:35] a lot to have, you know, a dozen or a

[9:37] hundred surgeries under your belt. And

[9:39] they're trying to figure out why. What

[9:40] they realize is that surgeons operate at

[9:42] different hospitals throughout a week.

[9:43] And when they break down their data by

[9:44] hospital, what they see is every surgery

[9:47] you do at hospital A will reduce your

[9:49] patient mortality rate by about 1%.

[9:52] tomorrow you go to hospital B, and it's

[9:54] as it's as if you've never practiced

[9:55] before. You are starting over, you're a

[9:57] complete novice.

[9:58] And what's happening is at hospital A,

[10:01] that shared experience you have with

[10:03] nurses, anesthesiologists, technicians,

[10:05] you've had a chance to build up a vibe.

[10:07] You've learned each other's strengths

[10:08] and weaknesses, you've developed

[10:10] effective routines. And when you have to

[10:12] go to hospital B, you you're missing

[10:13] that vibe with a new team, it's as if

[10:15] you're a rookie all over again.

[10:17] >> Starting all over.

[10:17] >> Exactly.

[10:18] >> Well, you have a ritual to help people

[10:20] light a spark of connection in just 60

[10:22] seconds. So, how does that work?

[10:24] >> Okay, this this was invented by my

[10:26] mentor Jane Dutton.

[10:27] >> Okay.

[10:28] >> She calls it a rapid high-quality

[10:29] connection exercise. And she says,

[10:31] "Okay, you have 1 minute, turn to the

[10:33] person next to you, and try to build a

[10:36] connection with them." And that's it, 60

[10:38] seconds. And then when I do this, I ask

[10:40] people to close their eyes and raise

[10:41] their hand if they think they vibed.

[10:43] And about 3/4 of people will raise their

[10:46] hands.

[10:47] >> Really?

[10:48] >> It's kind of magical.

[10:49] >> Yes. And are they saying anything in

[10:51] particular? Are they doing anything in

[10:53] particular?

[10:54] >> I think the most important thing is it's

[10:55] mutual.

[10:56] They know that the other person is also

[10:59] looking to vibe. And I think that's

[11:00] missing in a lot of our interactions.

[11:02] We're trying to strike up a conversation

[11:04] with somebody we see as a potential

[11:05] friend, we don't know if they

[11:07] reciprocate, if they also want to bond.

[11:09] And so we hesitate, we resort to small

[11:12] talk, we chat about the weather or

[11:13] sports. I hate that.

[11:15] >> I hate it.

[11:16] >> Okay, I'm glad it bothers you, too.

[11:18] >> Whoa, I hate small talk. It just

[11:21] your eyes glaze over. I don't know what

[11:23] to do. Do I look at my shoe? What do I

[11:25] do?

[11:25] >> It feels like a complete waste of time

[11:27] in a lot of cases. And I think what

[11:28] happens is when you only have 60

[11:30] seconds, you don't waste time on small

[11:33] talk. You jump right to deep talk. You

[11:35] start to ask instead of what do you do,

[11:37] you ask, "What do you love to do?"

[11:39] >> I think people should stop saying, "What

[11:40] do you do?" People should just go to

[11:42] "What do you love to do?" Or "What is

[11:44] inspiring you right now?" Or "What's

[11:46] opening you up right now?"

[11:48] >> Let's ask a question that lights the

[11:49] other person up.

[11:51] >> That's right. A great example of a vibe

[11:53] is uh one that uh Adam gives in the

[11:56] book. He studied astronauts like Katie

[11:58] Coleman, and Katie's story is in the

[12:01] book Vibe, and she joins us. Hi, Katie.

[12:04] I read that you were traveling at how

[12:06] many miles per hour is in space headed

[12:08] toward disaster when you had to rely on

[12:10] the vibe?

[12:11] >> Well, the vibe it's certainly true. Um

[12:13] Our launch uh before our launch it it

[12:16] was well known for two things. One, we

[12:18] had the first woman commander, Eileen

[12:19] Collins,

[12:20] be the commander. And second, we were

[12:22] launching a simply amazing telescope

[12:24] that was going to let us the whole world

[12:26] see black holes. But after we launched,

[12:29] in the end, the electrical short that

[12:31] happened 6 seconds after liftoff, it

[12:34] made us the most dangerous mission in

[12:36] the history of the Space Shuttle program

[12:39] that did not end in an accident.

[12:41] >> Wow, what year was this? When was this?

[12:43] >> This was in 1999 that we launched that

[12:45] telescope.

[12:46] >> Wow.

[12:47] >> And I mean, the punchline is that, you

[12:49] know, we we really

[12:50] the first thing I thought about is that

[12:53] we just did that. We did that in the

[12:54] simulator just last week. We can do

[12:57] that. And, you know, if something

[12:59] breaks, we always have several of them,

[13:01] right? And so, we had enough to be going

[13:03] just we're on course, we're on speed,

[13:06] but we are in the cockpit, we are all

[13:08] doing our jobs, playing our roles,

[13:10] watching everything. And and there's a

[13:13] lot of unspoken communication and in

[13:15] those simulations, we have learned how

[13:18] to listen, how to talk, how to

[13:20] understand when somebody needs some more

[13:22] time to figure out what they're looking

[13:24] at, and then they're going to report.

[13:26] And I would say that it is that kind of

[13:28] vibe, so to speak, that we save lives in

[13:31] dangerous situations with.

[13:33] >> Had you all vibed before? Like, one of

[13:36] the things that I was fascinated with

[13:38] the Artemis 2 crew when I interviewed

[13:40] them here, they were sharing that they

[13:43] spent 3 years building the team so that

[13:47] they had a really great vibe by the time

[13:50] they, you know, were launched into space

[13:52] together. So, did you all have a vibe

[13:54] before?

[13:55] >> We certainly did over time, but when

[13:59] when you look at us, Eileen had a

[14:00] daughter,

[14:02] Jeff is a Navy person, our French our

[14:04] French astronaut, French flight test

[14:06] engineer and and pilot, and then there's

[14:08] me, and then there's Steve Hawley that's

[14:10] actually older than all of us,

[14:13] but actually wiser, too. And so, we had

[14:15] so much to learn together. We were five

[14:17] very different people, but we had about

[14:20] a year and a half to learn about each

[14:23] other and to understand each other and

[14:26] and what we each were going to bring to

[14:28] the mission. And in fact,

[14:30] at one point I said to Eileen, I said,

[14:32] "You know, I know that I'm in charge of

[14:34] the telescope, but you know, I'm really

[14:36] supposed to have a backup and I still,

[14:38] you know, I worry that the way our crew

[14:41] is configured, I worry that I don't have

[14:43] one." And she said, "Well, you know, Dr.

[14:46] You know that Dr. Steve has done a on a

[14:48] mission just like this before and he may

[14:50] not act like he's he's listening and he

[14:53] will never ever help you in the

[14:55] simulator, but he is there for you." And

[14:57] helping understand that was Dr. Steve's

[15:00] way of being there for me really helped

[15:02] me then just get right into my job and

[15:05] do it.

[15:06] >> What did you learn from Katie and the

[15:07] astronauts?

[15:09] >> Well, one of the the things I Hi Katie,

[15:11] great to see you.

[15:12] >> Hello.

[15:13] >> I love the book.

[15:14] >> [laughter]

[15:15] >> Uh thank you. Well, one of the things

[15:16] that that I learned from from Katie and

[15:18] her crew,

[15:19] uh a different crew actually, was it

[15:21] they had huge differences, Oprah. Uh it

[15:23] sounds like a bad joke. An American and

[15:25] an Italian and a Russian are going to go

[15:27] to outer space together.

[15:28] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[15:29] >> And I don't think it was easy for them

[15:30] to bond. And one of the things they did

[15:33] was across their differences, they found

[15:35] an uncommon commonality.

[15:37] They shared their origin stories and

[15:39] they opened up about what was the

[15:41] defining moment when each of them knew

[15:42] they wanted to leave planet Earth and

[15:44] all of a sudden they realized, "We share

[15:46] something that very few people can

[15:48] relate to."

[15:49] >> Yeah. You have that common common bond

[15:51] of all of you wanting to have that one

[15:53] goal. Yes. And did that make the shift

[15:56] make the difference? Finding the common

[15:58] bond?

[15:59] >> Absolutely, but also the story behind,

[16:01] you know, looking as Adam says in the

[16:03] book, on my uh looking to the past

[16:05] perhaps for clues to how to relate to

[16:07] each other.

[16:07] >> Yeah.

[16:08] >> Is that understanding that for Dmitri,

[16:11] that moment to go wanting to go to space

[16:13] didn't happen for a long time and he

[16:14] talked about being in Siberia and all

[16:17] and the kinds of work he'd done that he

[16:19] cared about, and I realized that in all

[16:21] of that work, in all of that time, he

[16:23] had literally never worked with a woman

[16:25] before. And so, it was really just that

[16:27] we had to figure out that, because it

[16:29] was new for him. So, it was invaluable

[16:32] to do that experience.

[16:33] >> You're out in the space with somebody

[16:35] who's never worked with a woman before?

[16:37] >> Wow.

[16:37] >> [laughter]

[16:37] >> Well, we know where It's a It's

[16:39] actually, I think, like any any endeavor

[16:42] here on Earth, we we don't pick our

[16:44] teams.

[16:45] >> No.

[16:45] >> NASA does not exactly pick those teams,

[16:48] certainly for their personalities, or

[16:50] they'd probably do it all wrong,

[16:51] according to

[16:52] >> [laughter]

[16:53] >> Adam's book, right? If they were doing

[16:55] it, but

[16:56] which country, whose turn it is, within

[16:58] that country, which astronaut's career

[17:00] progression or skills, and certainly

[17:02] skills come first, should be

[17:04] on that mission.

[17:05] >> Yeah.

[17:06] >> Yeah. So, we don't pick our crews, and

[17:07] and I people look up to us, and so I

[17:10] like to try to help them understand that

[17:12] we make things work, and even though

[17:14] we're really different, we make them

[17:16] work, because the mission that we have

[17:18] in common is actually what focus us as

[17:20] together, and helps us not prioritize

[17:23] the stuff that doesn't that we don't

[17:25] actually have in common.

[17:26] >> So, the the the way it's described in

[17:28] the book, it feels like the vibe that

[17:30] you had created

[17:32] uh helped you avoid a disaster.

[17:35] Does that feel accurate to you? Yes.

[17:37] >> It does. It

[17:38] Adam actually told in a way to some

[17:41] different parts of our story, and one of

[17:43] them was that So, there's a Dmitri, the

[17:45] the Russian me

[17:46] >> Yeah.

[17:47] >> Um Paolo Nespoli, Italian.

[17:49] >> The Russian seemed very difficult to get

[17:51] along with. I mean, I don't I think I'm

[17:53] really good at vibing, but I think I'd

[17:55] have a hard time with the Russian, I

[17:56] would have to say. Yeah.

[17:57] >> [laughter]

[17:58] >> But then, with Paolo, we're we're kind

[18:00] of different than the instructors. In

[18:01] fact, I was the I was in charge of the

[18:04] capture of this big school school

[18:06] bus-sized supply ship. And the

[18:08] instructors said, "Katie, do Are you

[18:10] sure you want to do that with Paolo?

[18:12] Wouldn't you rather do it with Scott

[18:13] Kelly?" And I said, you know, Paolo and

[18:15] I have a great relationship. I mean, we

[18:18] even though we're really different, it's

[18:20] working. You know, he understands me, I

[18:22] understand him, and then we actually had

[18:24] a situation on orbit when we're about to

[18:26] It's the second time ever to do this. I

[18:28] mean, it's like having a school bus

[18:29] approach something the size of a

[18:31] factory, and we're going to grab it with

[18:33] the Canadian robotic arm. Well, it's

[18:36] everything has to be just right. And as

[18:38] I start to go in and actually grab that

[18:40] thing, I am used to Paolo saying, "Good

[18:42] rate, I see you two pins away." And

[18:45] Paolo says nothing.

[18:47] And all sudden, I realized I haven't

[18:49] heard anything, and and I don't have

[18:51] time to say, "Paolo, what's up?" And

[18:53] meanwhile, he, who can always do this,

[18:56] we'd never seen the real visual from

[18:58] orbit of what this looks like to have,

[19:00] you know, this arm approaching and

[19:02] you're looking from this way. And so, he

[19:04] couldn't couldn't tell me how far away

[19:06] we were at first. And so, once he

[19:07] figured it out, he started to That's a

[19:08] long way to say that there was sort of

[19:10] like a little stop where the whole world

[19:12] just stopped, and then we each we each

[19:15] knew where each other was and

[19:17] completed the capture together safely.

[19:19] And

[19:20] everybody was breathing on the ground

[19:21] and up on orbit after we were done.

[19:23] >> So, Katie, what's your advice on

[19:25] creating a vibe between colleagues? I

[19:28] mean, you've done it on Earth and out

[19:30] there in space. What's your What's your

[19:32] advice for how to do it well?

[19:34] >> I think connecting, finding a way to

[19:37] connect. And I love some of the

[19:38] suggestions that Adam has in in his book

[19:41] where I show a series of pictures when I

[19:43] talk about different way You know,

[19:45] there's some people it's easy to connect

[19:46] with, and some people you have to look

[19:47] harder. Because it's so easy to say,

[19:50] "Boy, not like me and not going to be on

[19:53] my team or not somebody I'm going to

[19:54] reach out to when unless I really have

[19:57] to." And that's the way that we lose.

[19:59] And And on a space crew, I think we have

[20:01] a real luxury that like there were six

[20:04] of us up there, three Russians, two

[20:06] Americans, one Italian.

[20:07] And we look around, it's there's clearly

[20:09] no one else coming, and the mission is

[20:12] critical. We cannot afford to ignore

[20:16] each other's strengths just because we

[20:18] have a hard time seeing what they are

[20:19] for each other.

[20:21] >> How long were you out there?

[20:22] >> Not long enough.

[20:24] I was up there almost 6 months and

[20:26] and then I would have spent another 6

[20:28] months in a minute. And that it just

[20:30] when you're up there it feels like every

[20:32] day every day to point we're learning

[20:33] new things about what we need for all of

[20:36] us to be leaving the planet when we want

[20:38] to.

[20:38] >> Don't you see the sunrise like 17 times

[20:40] a day or something? It's like you see

[20:42] the sunrise.

[20:43] >> 16 16 times. You're you're in the right

[20:45] ballpark absolutely and [clears throat]

[20:47] you're going around the earth and

[20:48] everyone that my my overwhelming

[20:51] impression of looking down at the earth

[20:53] when we go around like that, you know,

[20:55] every hour and a half the earth is

[20:57] turning below us. We literally see every

[20:59] human on the planet, you know,

[21:00] everybody's down there. And I just think

[21:03] if only they could know how close they

[21:05] are and how easily they could connect

[21:08] together

[21:09] we can we can meet any challenge.

[21:11] >> Yeah, the thing that

[21:13] when the astronauts the Artemis just

[21:15] went there and one of the things that

[21:17] stuck with me is

[21:19] they said we are our own crew. When you

[21:22] look back and realize it, we are our own

[21:25] crew

[21:26] but we have set up all of our own

[21:28] boundaries ourselves.

[21:29] >> When you come back to all of us really

[21:31] are.

[21:31] >> Yeah, yeah. We are our

[21:33] >> of spaceship earth.

[21:34] >> We are crew. Thank you so much Katie. In

[21:36] Vibe Adam tells the story of

[21:39] NBA legend Joe Dumars and as a native of

[21:43] Michigan

[21:44] >> [laughter]

[21:45] >> We have to say Joe Dumars.

[21:48] >> Joe Dumars.

[21:50] I read Joe is your favorite player of

[21:51] all time.

[21:52] >> Joe is my all time favorite player.

[21:54] >> Well, there he is.

[21:55] >> Hey Joe D.

[21:57] >> Hey Joe.

[21:57] >> What's up Adam? How are you?

[21:59] >> Hi Joe.

[22:01] >> Hi. Hi. How are you?

[22:02] >> I'm good. So you're known for handling

[22:05] you know, some of the more volatile

[22:07] players I would say

[22:10] >> [laughter]

[22:10] >> in the NBA raising them up to a higher

[22:13] potential.

[22:15] You know, that's one of my core beliefs.

[22:17] And so how have you been able to do

[22:20] that?

[22:20] >> I think first and foremost

[22:23] one of those things where you you're

[22:25] bringing in all different backgrounds,

[22:26] cultures,

[22:28] >> Yeah.

[22:28] >> um everything. You bringing them

[22:30] together and you really have this one

[22:33] single goal to win.

[22:34] >> And creative advice.

[22:35] >> is I would went to to meet people where

[22:37] they are.

[22:38] >> Yeah.

[22:39] >> And not try to cookie-cutter an NBA

[22:43] team. You can't do with that. And so, um

[22:46] some of my teammates, like Dennis

[22:47] Rodman, guys who I signed in Detroit, uh

[22:50] Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, the

[22:53] outside world has looked at them as like

[22:55] some tough, difficult guys.

[22:57] Uh my experience, and I shared this with

[22:59] Adam over the years, is some of the best

[23:01] teammates you could ever have.

[23:03] >> Really?

[23:04] >> And they're viewed as the most difficult

[23:06] guys, but they are the most selfless

[23:08] teammates you're ever going to see. And

[23:10] so, I just always found that you got to

[23:12] meet them where they are, and you can't

[23:14] try to put them in this box. Uh because

[23:16] if you do,

[23:17] you can put them in there, but they're

[23:19] not going to be at their best then.

[23:20] >> How did you approach that? Because yes,

[23:23] a lot of the world looks at the people

[23:25] you've worked with as being challenging,

[23:27] difficult, and your approach was what?

[23:29] I'm going to have no judgement? I'm

[23:31] going to I'm going to meet you where you

[23:33] are and how you are.

[23:34] >> What was very evident from the very

[23:36] beginning with those guys is that

[23:38] two things. One, they were great

[23:39] teammates.

[23:41] And two,

[23:42] they really really wanted to win.

[23:45] >> Mhm.

[23:45] >> So, all the other stuff, I just refused

[23:47] to allow the other stuff to get in the

[23:49] way.

[23:50] The other stuff was just their

[23:52] personality, what they like to do, what

[23:54] they don't like to do, and I just didn't

[23:56] put the importance on that.

[23:58] The fact that they were great teammates,

[24:00] and they were

[24:01] >> wanted to win.

[24:02] >> obsessed with winning,

[24:03] >> Mhm.

[24:04] >> uh that took precedent over everything

[24:06] else for me. So, I could accept who they

[24:08] were, knowing that these guys will

[24:10] sacrifice anything.

[24:11] >> And so, what struck you about Joe's

[24:14] method?

[24:14] >> Joe, I thought what you did was

[24:15] brilliant. And uh I mean, we we should

[24:18] really have Joe just describe it, but

[24:19] the the principle I took away was

[24:22] he accepted their eccentricities, and he

[24:26] set boundaries for their behavior. And I

[24:28] never thought about that before that you

[24:30] can say, "Look, I accept that you might

[24:32] be the kind of person who's hot-tempered

[24:34] or you might have a meltdown, but here

[24:35] are the behaviors that are okay and not

[24:38] okay." And I think Joe, you did that

[24:40] brilliantly with Rasheed Wallace.

[24:41] >> Yeah, tell tell tell us about that, Joe.

[24:43] >> So, when we first acquired him, long

[24:45] ride from the airport in Detroit to to

[24:48] the arena. And what I talked to him

[24:49] about was, "Look, I know you are going

[24:51] to get technical fouls. And you get two

[24:53] technical fouls, you're ejected from the

[24:55] game, right?"

[24:57] >> Right.

[24:57] >> So, what I said to him was, "Look, you

[25:00] you can get that first one the first

[25:02] three quarters of the game. Have at it.

[25:04] You want to get a tech during that time,

[25:06] that's great. No problem with me. What

[25:08] you can't do is two things. One, you

[25:10] can't get it in the fourth quarter when

[25:12] it's critical time.

[25:13] >> Right.

[25:14] >> And two, you can't get ejected from the

[25:16] game. So, what he's hearing from me at

[25:18] that point is, I'm not, you know,

[25:20] wagging my finger at him and telling

[25:22] him, "You must act this way." I just

[25:25] say, "Look, I know who you are. I know

[25:26] you're going to get techs. Get them in

[25:28] the first three quarters. Don't get

[25:29] kicked out of the game and don't get

[25:30] them at crunch time." Uh and so, I think

[25:33] Adam was just talking about that. Just

[25:36] that's meeting a person where they are

[25:37] and not uh trying to put them in a box

[25:40] that you know that they're not going to

[25:42] fit in. And if you do put them in that

[25:43] box, you're going to get half of what he

[25:45] really is.

[25:46] >> Wow.

[25:47] What else impressed you?

[25:49] >> I think just [laughter] the patience

[25:52] that Joe brought to the table. I think,

[25:54] you know, a lot of people would have

[25:55] just written those guys off and said, "I

[25:57] don't care how talented they are,

[25:58] they're toxic to my team."

[26:00] >> putting up with that.

[26:01] >> Not worth the effort. And Joe looked at

[26:03] that and said, "Look, these these guys

[26:04] have been friend-amies to a lot of

[26:06] people. I can turn them into allies."

[26:08] >> Yeah, and the fact Joe that you could

[26:10] see that what they really want is to

[26:13] win.

[26:14] >> Absolutely.

[26:15] >> Yeah.

[26:15] >> Absolutely. I I I will say I think part

[26:18] of this

[26:19] uh I'm the youngest of seven kids. Guess

[26:21] what? When you're in the house full of

[26:22] kids,

[26:23] >> Yeah.

[26:23] >> you have to learn how to make things

[26:25] work. You have to learn how to get

[26:26] along. Everybody's not going to have the

[26:28] exact same personality.

[26:30] >> Yeah.

[26:31] >> And so, you you know, it was instilled

[26:33] in me from a very very young age uh that

[26:36] everybody's not the same and that

[26:38] doesn't mean that it's all bad. And so

[26:40] you try to find the best in everybody to

[26:42] make it work.

[26:43] >> So at an young age, you knew how to make

[26:45] strong connections in your house, in

[26:47] your community, with the people you

[26:49] needed in order to survive.

[26:52] >> Absolutely, 100%.

[26:53] >> You could have written this book. Thank

[26:55] you, Joe. Thank you for joining us.

[26:56] Thanks so much and good luck. Good luck

[26:59] the season with the with THE NEW ORLEANS

[27:01] PELICANS.

[27:02] >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU. Thank you. Thank

[27:03] you very much.

[27:04] >> So you say that a little friction in a

[27:06] relationship can actually be beneficial.

[27:09] How so?

[27:10] >> I was stunned, Oprah, by the experiments

[27:11] on this. There have been over a dozen

[27:13] experiments where people are asked to

[27:16] think of somebody in their life that

[27:18] they have some tough love to give or a

[27:20] difficult conversation they're avoiding.

[27:22] Could be a friend, a family member, or a

[27:24] colleague.

[27:24] >> Mhm.

[27:25] >> And they're just randomly assigned to go

[27:27] and have that conversation.

[27:28] And they've been avoiding it because

[27:30] they think it's going to destroy the

[27:31] relationship. What the data shows is the

[27:33] exact opposite happens.

[27:35] >> It does.

[27:36] >> Two weeks later, they feel closer to the

[27:38] person they've just confronted and the

[27:39] other person feels closer to them, too.

[27:41] Because they've made an investment in

[27:42] saying, "Look, I care enough about you

[27:44] and our relationship to be honest with

[27:46] you."

[27:47] And they're not trying to be brutal.

[27:49] They're trying to be clear and kind.

[27:51] >> Mhm.

[27:51] >> And doing that actually builds the

[27:53] resilience of the relationship. It's

[27:55] It's basically a commitment to saying,

[27:58] "Look,

[27:58] we we care about each other enough that

[28:01] we can tell each other the truth." And I

[28:03] think you know this well that it's it's

[28:05] surprisingly easy to have a hard

[28:07] conversation with somebody who is deeply

[28:10] invested in your well-being.

[28:12] >> It is.

[28:13] So on page five you write this. You say,

[28:16] "We're lonely

[28:17] because we're missing connection.

[28:20] And we're missing connection

[28:22] because we're struggling with its

[28:24] foundation interaction."

[28:27] So Tracy is joining us now from

[28:29] Connecticut and Tracy, you are feeling

[28:32] exactly this. He could be writing about

[28:34] you.

[28:35] >> Yes. Hi.

[28:35] >> Hi Ophelia. Hi Adam.

[28:37] >> Hi.

[28:38] >> for having me.

[28:39] >> Yes.

[28:40] >> the conversation about making meaningful

[28:42] connections in a lonely digital world

[28:43] really do resonate with me. I'm I

[28:46] realized that my challenge isn't

[28:48] necessarily meeting people because I'm

[28:49] naturally social and I enjoy good

[28:52] conversation and I regularly attend

[28:54] events as well and do interesting things

[28:56] on my own. But I've noticed that when

[28:58] I'm actually out I often forget how to

[29:00] connect with people. So I'll attend an

[29:02] event and I'll go home um but I don't

[29:04] actually make a friendship. And so

[29:07] recently I decided to make a conscious

[29:09] effort to meet more people and build a

[29:12] stronger local community. And so I went

[29:14] out by myself recently and afterwards I

[29:16] discovered that there was a poetry event

[29:18] in my building when I got home. And so I

[29:21] went in and I asked if it was open to

[29:22] residents or if it was invite-only and

[29:25] um I was able to attend. And I thought

[29:27] it was such a simple thing um but it

[29:29] made me realize how many opportunities

[29:32] for connection can exist around me um if

[29:35] I actually look for them. And so the

[29:37] question I have for you Adam is in a

[29:39] world where we can constantly

[29:41] communicate online, you know, have

[29:43] hundreds or thousands of followers on

[29:46] social media and we're surrounded by

[29:47] people digitally um why can't it still

[29:50] feel so difficult to develop genuine

[29:52] friendships?

[29:53] >> Mhm.

[29:54] >> Uh

[29:55] I love that question Tracy.

[29:56] >> Yeah.

[29:57] >> I mean I I actually think going and and

[29:59] joining a poetry group is a great

[30:01] example of what I would recommend. I

[30:03] think the the reason that so many people

[30:05] are struggling with interaction is they

[30:07] don't really know what kind of

[30:09] connection they're looking for.

[30:10] >> Yeah.

[30:10] >> And I found that there there are three

[30:12] kinds of people in all of our lives and

[30:14] we need them all.

[30:15] >> Okay.

[30:16] >> So I call them allies, pals, and

[30:17] companions.

[30:18] >> Okay.

[30:19] >> An ally is somebody who shares your

[30:21] goals. You're on a mission together.

[30:23] A pal is somebody who shares your

[30:24] interests and hobbies.

[30:26] >> You have fun together.

[30:27] >> And a companion is somebody who shares

[30:28] your values. You have deep care and

[30:30] affection for each other. And I think

[30:33] it's helpful to be really clear about

[30:34] what kind of bond am I trying to form?

[30:36] And not wanting a an ally to be a

[30:39] companion or a pal to be that to

[30:42] actually understand that it's like the

[30:44] old adage about friends coming to your

[30:46] life for seasons and reasons. Right?

[30:48] Yes.

[30:49] >> Yes. And Tracy, I think your example is

[30:50] so great because you you took an

[30:52] interest of yours, poetry, and you said,

[30:54] "Okay, I can go to a group where other

[30:56] people share that interest and I will

[30:58] find

[30:59] instant pals.

[31:00] >> Instant.

[31:01] >> And maybe there are some potential

[31:02] allies there, too, because there are

[31:03] people who might want to write poetry

[31:05] with you.

[31:05] >> speaking for just millions of people who

[31:07] feel this way right now? Yes.

[31:08] >> Maybe a billion.

[31:09] >> Yeah, maybe a billion. And so, that

[31:12] process

[31:14] that taking that action has done what

[31:15] for you?

[31:17] >> Um I think it made me feel a little bit

[31:19] more comfortable in my skin and talking

[31:22] to other people and just really trying

[31:25] to figure out like, "Okay, I need to

[31:26] connect. How can I do this?" What it's

[31:28] given me the um I get the courage to do

[31:31] that.

[31:32] >> I think poetry is also really clever

[31:34] because it's vulnerable. It's emotional.

[31:37] It invites a level of companionship.

[31:39] When you've when you're reading poetry

[31:40] with a group of people, you have the

[31:42] opportunity then to confide in each

[31:44] other, to console each other, to show

[31:46] compassion for each other. I think it

[31:48] opens up a channel of communication that

[31:50] we often don't have unless we know

[31:51] people really well.

[31:52] >> And I think poets speak their own

[31:54] language. I mean, I I think poetry is is

[31:56] obviously its own vibe, if we may say

[31:59] so. Don't you think so?

[32:01] >> Yes, I agree.

[32:03] >> Yeah.

[32:03] >> I I married a poet. I cannot disagree

[32:05] with that.

[32:06] >> Yeah, yeah, it it it is its own vibe and

[32:08] poets poets relate to one another in a

[32:10] way that other people don't. You all see

[32:12] the world in a way that other people

[32:14] don't.

[32:15] >> Yes. Oh, definitely, definitely. I

[32:16] agree.

[32:17] >> Yeah. Well, thank you, Tracy.

[32:19] Thank you so much. Thank you for your

[32:21] question.

[32:21] >> Thank you.

[32:22] >> This This caught my attention on page 18

[32:25] where you say people are happier with

[32:26] their friends

[32:28] than spending time with their partners

[32:30] or their children. Really?

[32:32] >> Uh-oh. Yeah.

[32:33] >> Yeah, I I can see that, but what did you

[32:35] find?

[32:36] >> Well, when I first read this evidence, I

[32:38] said, "Oh, no. People, you married the

[32:40] wrong person.

[32:41] >> No.

[32:41] >> You're you're really struggling to

[32:43] connect with your kids.

[32:44] >> for it was really interesting.

[32:45] >> Yeah, the reason is that we do different

[32:47] activities with our friends than we do

[32:49] with our partners and our kids.

[32:50] >> open to doing new things.

[32:52] >> We have way more pal interaction with

[32:54] our friends, right? We're We're We're

[32:56] usually trying to schedule fun, whether

[32:57] it's a karaoke night or a pickleball

[33:00] game. And unfortunately, a lot of our

[33:03] time spent with our partners and our

[33:04] kids is doing chores, nagging each

[33:07] other. And so, if we want to have a

[33:09] better vibe with members of our family,

[33:11] we should actually spend our time more

[33:12] like we would with our friends.

[33:13] >> Mhm.

[33:14] So, one of the things you also write

[33:16] about in Vibe is how quick we are to to

[33:19] to make judgments, snap judgments about

[33:21] people. Uh sometimes the second we meet

[33:24] them, and and you see this online all

[33:26] the time. People are making judgments

[33:28] about stories they haven't even They

[33:30] just read the headline and don't even

[33:32] know all the facts.

[33:34] So, how did this show up in your life?

[33:35] And I thought what Joe was saying about

[33:37] not judging the players and

[33:40] understanding their traits and

[33:42] characteristics and personality, using

[33:44] that, and then setting limits. But I

[33:47] would just have to say, how did this

[33:48] show up in your life?

[33:49] >> It's shown up in my life over and over

[33:50] again. I've started out disliking

[33:52] somebody and said, you know what, that

[33:55] person is not for me.

[33:56] >> Yeah, this happened with Brené Brown.

[33:58] >> It did.

[33:58] >> That you're now doing a podcast with.

[34:00] >> I mean, Brené Brown and I met once

[34:03] speaking at an event, and then we had a

[34:06] a public feud

[34:08] uh when I had quoted her in an article.

[34:09] I wrote an article, I quoted her. I

[34:11] thought it was a shout-out. It was out

[34:13] of context.

[34:14] She felt it misrepresented her work, and

[34:16] you know, we we ended up having this

[34:18] this kind of heated debate back and

[34:19] forth. And I swore, Oprah, that I would

[34:21] not talk to her ever again.

[34:23] And we didn't communicate for the next 4

[34:24] years.

[34:25] >> Really?

[34:26] >> Yeah, 4 years.

[34:27] And then I was in a really tough

[34:29] situation where I was trying to help the

[34:31] US women's national soccer team improve

[34:33] their vibe. And I decided I needed to

[34:35] bring in some outside experts to help

[34:37] convince them that culture and team

[34:39] camaraderie really mattered. And I asked

[34:41] them who they wanted, and the number one

[34:43] pick was Brené Brown.

[34:44] >> Wow.

[34:45] >> And I reached out to her, and to her

[34:47] credit, she said yes right away. She

[34:49] showed up with

[34:50] >> She said yes to you.

[34:51] >> To me?

[34:52] >> Who she was not speaking to for 4 years.

[34:54] >> No, I mean, I I didn't know it, but she

[34:55] also had a lot of animosity toward me,

[34:57] but I think we had a common mission, and

[35:00] that made us allies. And Brené is an

[35:02] extraordinarily generous person, and she

[35:04] went above and beyond to try to help me

[35:06] and them, and I saw a different side of

[35:08] her, and I realized

[35:09] >> There are so many people

[35:10] >> That's so cool. Who clash in one

[35:12] context, but could click in another.

[35:14] >> Wow. And now, so how did the podcast

[35:16] come about?

[35:17] >> One thing led to another, we basically

[35:20] we had a surprisingly positive

[35:22] interaction with the soccer team, and

[35:24] then we ended up going on each other's

[35:26] podcasts, and our audience said, "You

[35:29] two should do more together."

[35:30] >> Wow. And so now you are. So you wrote

[35:33] this because you felt a need in the

[35:36] world to share the secrets of strong

[35:38] connections in a lonely world. And you

[35:41] want the reader

[35:43] and those of us in the world to come

[35:46] away with what is the the the the great

[35:48] takeaway?

[35:49] >> I think for me the biggest takeaway of

[35:51] Vibe is that

[35:52] we have choices in every interaction

[35:55] >> Mhm.

[35:55] >> about what we ask and what we share.

[35:58] And I think so often people assume a

[36:00] Vibe is about matchmaking. They think,

[36:03] "Okay, like I need a

[36:05] the equivalent of a dating algorithm to

[36:07] say, okay, are our traits compatible? Is

[36:10] my personality going to mesh with

[36:12] yours?" And that's wrong. Our separate

[36:14] traits do not dictate our shared vibe.

[36:17] Whether we connect is much more about

[36:20] the vibe we build than the one that

[36:22] we've tried to select for.

[36:25] >> Mhm.

[36:25] >> And I think that's good news, because it

[36:27] means we can build chemistry with people

[36:29] that we didn't like. We can become close

[36:32] with people that we couldn't stand. And

[36:34] it's never too late, I think, to give

[36:36] people a chance at a second impression.

[36:39] >> So you've been married now, what, almost

[36:41] 20 years?

[36:42] >> 20 years, yeah.

[36:43] >> And how do these principles that you're

[36:46] so wise about, how does this play out in

[36:49] your actual personal relationship in

[36:51] marriage when you have a disagreement,

[36:52] for example?

[36:53] >> I mean, Allison is a master of this. So,

[36:55] we have a perpetual disagreement about

[36:58] being late. I run 5 to 10 minutes late

[36:59] for pretty much everything on a good

[37:01] day.

[37:01] >> Okay.

[37:02] >> Cuz I'm I'm trying to cram too much into

[37:04] my day, and also I just get absorbed in

[37:06] a flow state, and I think those are

[37:08] precious and I lose track of time. And

[37:10] Allison believes it's a mortal sin to be

[37:11] late to anything ever. [laughter]

[37:13] So, you can imagine how this goes.

[37:16] And after years of fighting about it,

[37:18] she said to me one day, she said, "Look,

[37:21] I know that you have a habit of running

[37:22] late, and let me just tell you, here are

[37:24] the situations where that is not okay.

[37:27] It's, you know, it's fine if you and I

[37:29] agreed we were going to watch a show

[37:30] together, and you come upstairs 10

[37:32] minutes late. It is not okay if

[37:34] somebody's hosting a dinner party, and

[37:36] you make us late because the food is

[37:38] going to get burned or cold. And she did

[37:39] exactly what Joe Dumars was doing.

[37:41] >> I was just thinking that

[37:42] >> She Joe moved. She accepted my tendency,

[37:44] and she contained the damage.

[37:46] >> And she contained the damage, and it's

[37:48] working out for you.

[37:50] >> So far, so good.

[37:51] >> So far, so good. I thank you for coming

[37:53] again. Thank you.

[37:54] >> Honored to be here. Thank you for having

[37:56] me, Oprah.

[37:56] >> The book is called Vibe: The Secrets of

[37:58] Strong Connections in a Lonely World,

[38:01] and it's available wherever you buy your

[38:03] books. And thank you to our partners at

[38:05] AT&T. Listeners, we're

[38:07] going to vibe together next time. Go

[38:10] well, everybody.

[38:12] Go well.

[38:13] We live in [music] a time of such

[38:15] digital disconnection, something we talk

[38:17] about often here on the Oprah podcast.

[38:19] [music] It's causing many people to feel

[38:21] cut off from the real world. If you're

[38:22] looking to build more meaningful

[38:24] relationships [music] in your life, grab

[38:25] a copy of Adam Grant's new book, Vibe:

[38:28] The Secrets of Strong Connections in a

[38:30] Lonely World, by simply scanning the

[38:32] [music] QR code right there on your

[38:35] screen. Our listeners tell us that the

[38:38] podcast [music] is resonating with you

[38:40] and is serving as a bright spot in your

[38:42] day. That means a lot [music] to me. So,

[38:44] here's the thing. I would really

[38:46] appreciate it if you like and subscribe

[38:49] to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or

[38:51] wherever you [music] podcast. It's it's

[38:53] just a quick tap of the subscribe button

[38:56] and that way [music] you won't miss an

[38:58] episode in your queue. You don't have to

[39:00] pay anything. I know subscribe [music]

[39:02] usually means you're paying something

[39:04] but this time it means you just are

[39:06] notified when there's [music] something

[39:08] new. There are many more to come that

[39:10] we're excited about. So thank you for

[39:11] watching and listening.

Oprah Winfrey
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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

In the Oprah podcast conversation, Grant describes vibe as the effortless chemistry that makes some interactions click and others feel awkward, even with people you know well. His book Vibe treats it as something that can be understood by reverse-engineering what skilled connectors actually do. The focus is on attention, curiosity, and showing another person that you see them.
Pebbling is a term Grant borrows from a penguin mating ritual, in which penguins present smooth stones to a potential mate. In human terms, it means sending someone something specific that you think they would appreciate, such as an article, a show, or a meme that reminded you of them. Grant stresses it should be a thoughtful gesture, not random spam.
Grant explained on the Oprah podcast that the evolutionary purpose of loneliness is to signal that we are being excluded. That signal is meant to prompt us to reach out and reconnect. He said many people feel that signal strongly but don't know how to respond to it.
Grant told Oprah Winfrey that a little friction can be beneficial, but he also described how a snap judgment about a person can harden a disagreement into a long silence. His own public feud with Brené Brown led to four years without communication. The takeaway is that friction is manageable when people revisit their first impressions instead of leaving them fixed.
Brian Little was the personality psychology professor who taught Grant in college. Grant describes him as a magnetic lecturer and an extreme introvert who hid in the bathroom after lectures to avoid students. Grant says Little's classroom taught him that a room's vibe can be created deliberately, through playful prompts and structure.
The podcast offers a strong overview of the book's core ideas, including pebbling, the loneliness signal, and the role of snap judgments. The full book goes further into the research and examples behind those ideas. Readers who want the complete argument and the marriage, family, and friendship material should read the book.
Grant's guidance from the podcast points to specific, personal gestures that show you are paying attention. Sending a pebble that references a shared interest, and saying why it reminded you of them, is one concrete step. Revisiting first impressions and avoiding quick judgments can also keep relationships from hardening.

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