Transcript
[0:00] Jay-Z wrote in a way that no one else
[0:02] wrote. All the other rappers that I
[0:04] worked with spent a lot of time writing
[0:06] lyrics. And I never saw Jay write
[0:08] lyrics. And when I played [music] him
[0:09] the beat for 99 Problems, he said,
[0:11] "Okay, just keep playing it over and
[0:13] over again." And he sat in the back of
[0:14] the room. You could hear him mumbling or
[0:16] humming. After [music] 20 or 30 minutes,
[0:18] he's like, "Okay, I got it." And ran
[0:20] into the other room and did the first
[0:21] verse. He did, let's say, three takes.
[0:23] And then he came in, he listened to him.
[0:25] He's like, "Oh, yeah. I think the second
[0:26] one's good." It just happens in his
[0:29] mind.
[0:29] >> [music]
[0:29] >> And then this big list of people that
[0:30] you've worked with. I mean, it's just
[0:32] this unbelievable list. Jay-Z and Kanye
[0:34] Adel, Justin Timberlake, and MC Jagger
[0:36] and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Why do
[0:38] you think these people call you? Because
[0:40] I've been making things for 40 years and
[0:42] I started making music as a hobby. It
[0:44] ended up taking on a life of its own and
[0:45] becoming a business. And that list,
[0:47] they're not special. I would say they're
[0:50] ordinary people who made a decision. I
[0:51] think of Eminem as a good example.
[0:53] Eminem is someone who's always writing
[0:55] because he wants to be the best he could
[0:57] possibly be and he's insanely obsessive
[1:00] about that. It
[1:01] >> appears that some people are just like
[1:02] inherently more creative than others.
[1:05] >> Well, creativity is beaten out of us
[1:07] over the course of our lives. We go to
[1:09] school, we're taught to follow rules.
[1:11] The rules are not there to help us. The
[1:13] rules are there to control us. We're not
[1:15] taught to be free creative thinkers. So,
[1:18] I'm suggesting we break free and express
[1:21] ourselves freely. How? Well, all of the
[1:23] best things involve risk. It's only
[1:25] through the risk that the greatness is
[1:27] shown. And so something needs to die.
[1:30] That lifestyle in that moment, that
[1:32] career path, that relationship, that's
[1:34] what needs to die. Is there a step one
[1:36] in that direction for people that want
[1:37] to hit the reset button?
[1:39] >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is
[1:41] >> your early 30s, you had a depressive
[1:44] episode yourself.
[1:45] >> Yeah. It was [music] really a tough
[1:47] time. I felt like the rug had been
[1:49] pulled out from under me. started having
[1:51] panic attacks and couldn't sleep and got
[1:53] really sick and it felt like I was shot
[1:56] with a poison arrow. Take me [music]
[1:58] into that part of your life. So, um,
[2:04] here is a strange fact. Most of the
[2:07] people watching this right now, about
[2:08] 58% of you aren't yet subscribed to this
[2:11] channel. Statistically, that is probably
[2:13] you. So, could I ask you a small favor?
[2:16] If this channel has ever given you any
[2:17] value at all, please could you do me a
[2:19] favor and hit the subscribe button. It
[2:20] [clears throat] costs nothing. It helps
[2:22] us more than you could know. And the
[2:23] bigger the channel gets, as you've seen,
[2:24] the more we can invest in the guests and
[2:26] the production. So, thank you so much.
[2:27] And I hope you enjoy this episode.
[2:30] [music]
[2:33] >> I'm going to start Rick where my
[2:34] curiosity is.
[2:35] >> Yes.
[2:35] >> How do you sort of self-categorize or
[2:38] selfidentify in terms of like your
[2:40] profession?
[2:41] >> H I would say I'm involved in art and
[2:44] creativity. And what is your involvement
[2:46] in art and creativity?
[2:48] >> Might be as a coach.
[2:50] It might be as a uh collaborator.
[2:54] >> It might come up in a film project or it
[2:58] might come up in someone who's has a
[3:00] startup who wants to talk about what are
[3:03] the things creative solutions. any any
[3:07] problem that we have or any anything we
[3:10] want to get better at, there's usually a
[3:12] creative path
[3:14] to improve or at least to test to see if
[3:17] there are other ways around. Often the
[3:20] accepted version of how to move forward
[3:23] is another limitation.
[3:26] >> I'm very curious about your principles
[3:28] as it relates to finding the solution,
[3:30] whether that's in business or whether
[3:32] it's in music. Um, and I'm I'm really
[3:34] interested in if there's any
[3:35] similarities in the process of finding a
[3:38] solution because I'm an entrepreneur. I
[3:40] guess I'm a podcaster as well. I do
[3:42] investments all day every day. I'm in
[3:44] the pursuit of a solution to a problem,
[3:46] a people problem, a creative problem.
[3:49] Do you have any highle principles that
[3:50] are broadly applicable irrespective of
[3:52] the type of problem you're solving?
[3:54] >> I'll tell you an interesting one. A word
[3:56] I've been thinking about lately is
[3:58] indefensible. Indefensible is a funny
[4:00] word because it's a it's a really
[4:03] projorative word. It's a strong
[4:06] projorative.
[4:07] If something is indefensible,
[4:11] it's not just bad. Indefensible is is
[4:14] really
[4:16] extreme.
[4:18] I'm thinking that in making art,
[4:22] indefensible is actually a good thing.
[4:25] Maybe not only a good thing, maybe a
[4:27] necessary thing.
[4:29] that you take things to the extreme
[4:33] that are indefensible.
[4:35] I can't tell you why.
[4:38] I can't tell you why because it's beyond
[4:41] reason.
[4:44] So, I'm I'm in that camp of reason is a
[4:47] is a tiny sliver of how decisions get
[4:52] made.
[4:53] And I I would be much more in the camp
[4:56] of intuition
[4:58] or maybe some sort of a
[5:02] guide guidance from the universe.
[5:05] Openness to being guided by
[5:11] something more something
[5:13] the creative force of the universe. You
[5:16] could call it God. I call it God. You're
[5:19] not required to. What art that you've
[5:22] been involved in creating would you
[5:24] would you define in the moment as being
[5:25] indefensible?
[5:28] >> A little over a year ago there was a
[5:30] meme about vibe coding.
[5:33] >> Mhm.
[5:33] >> The way it started was if something new
[5:36] happened. A guy named Andrev Carpathy
[5:40] coined the term vibe coding. I didn't
[5:42] know what it was. That same day that he
[5:46] coined the term and tweeted about it.
[5:49] Someone put a picture of me with my
[5:51] wearing headphones with my eyes closed,
[5:52] hand on a mouse. And that image became
[5:56] associated with vibe coding. Had nothing
[5:58] to do with me. I saw it. I didn't know
[5:59] what it meant. But then over the next
[6:01] few days, friends started sending me
[6:03] hundreds of this image associated with
[6:05] vibe coding in all different ways. And I
[6:08] thought, hm, [clears throat]
[6:10] now the the old me, precreative act me
[6:14] would have laughed and moved on with my
[6:17] life. And one of the things that I
[6:20] learned through working on the creative
[6:23] act, one of the things it talks about a
[6:25] lot is
[6:27] we're given information all the time
[6:30] around us. There are all these uh
[6:32] opportunities or invitations
[6:36] being made all the time. In the past, if
[6:38] someone told me about a movie that
[6:40] sounded like I didn't want to see it,
[6:41] that doesn't sound like it's for me, I
[6:43] would I would ignore it. But if two or
[6:45] three people say you might want to see
[6:47] this movie, I might even if it's not
[6:50] interesting to me, it's almost like the
[6:52] universe some too much energy behind
[6:55] this. So this was an example of a lot of
[6:59] energy coming towards me relating to
[7:01] vibe coding. I don't know what it is.
[7:04] And I thought, okay, how do I
[7:05] participate? If I want to participate in
[7:07] this thing that's going on,
[7:10] [clears throat] an experiment, creative
[7:11] experiment. And I thought, okay, I'm
[7:13] going to write a joke tweet
[7:17] related to vibe coding. I thought about
[7:19] it and came up with tools will come,
[7:21] tools will go, only the vibe coder
[7:24] remains. And typically the tweets get
[7:28] 10,000 20,000 views. I look the next day
[7:32] and this joke tweet has a million and a
[7:35] half views. It's like something's going
[7:37] on. It was an indefensible act. There
[7:40] was no reason for me to do it. But I'm
[7:42] feeling this energy coming at me from
[7:45] all of these different directions.
[7:48] I participate. I I answer the
[7:50] invitation.
[7:52] Comes back. there's interest said hm
[7:57] what would be the next step and the next
[7:58] step is well I still don't really know
[8:00] what vibe coding is maybe I'll write a
[8:02] book about vibe coding I put aside all
[8:04] of my real work my professional work
[8:09] to dedicate myself to this book on vibe
[8:12] coding
[8:14] and again I couldn't explain it I
[8:17] couldn't tell you why I can't say it was
[8:19] a good idea none of those things I was
[8:22] following a calling
[8:25] feeling like I was being invited to
[8:27] participate in this thing and this is
[8:28] the way that I could answer the call. So
[8:31] I did.
[8:32] >> In so many parts of our life, we might
[8:35] get that invitation to participate in
[8:37] something that is none of our business.
[8:38] >> Yes. All the time.
[8:40] >> Yeah. And we and we usually say no
[8:41] because it's not what's on our business
[8:42] card. It's not what we've done in the
[8:44] past. And we are, you know, the more
[8:45] successful we become, the more narrow we
[8:47] become in many respects.
[8:48] >> Yes.
[8:50] I'm thinking about this idea of like how
[8:52] one resists their label so they can
[8:53] capitalize on all the callings or you
[8:55] know the so they don't miss
[8:57] >> yeah important
[8:58] >> any label that you put on yourself or
[9:00] that's put on you makes you smaller no
[9:03] label supply
[9:05] no label supply we are beyond labels
[9:10] >> it's tempting though isn't it because
[9:11] labels are nice shortcuts at cocktail
[9:14] parties
[9:14] >> there are also no shortcuts [laughter]
[9:17] and I hope you don't spend too and
[9:19] shaming cocktail parties.
[9:20] >> No, I don't. Don't worry. I'm guessing
[9:22] what goes on there.
[9:23] >> Okay. So, that's interesting. This idea
[9:25] of sometimes following the indefensible.
[9:27] >> Well, if you feel a call, even if it
[9:29] doesn't make sense,
[9:33] if you uh for for an artist to write a
[9:36] song
[9:38] and you really feel like this is really
[9:40] this is some this is really meaningful
[9:43] to me. I think no one's going to like
[9:45] it, but I really feel it. I can't defend
[9:49] it. That's the best thing you can do. If
[9:52] you make something where you think this
[9:55] is for everyone or they're going to love
[9:56] it,
[9:58] it's like uh it's too easy. The most
[10:02] interesting things are challenging. It's
[10:05] challenging to you. It's challenging to
[10:07] the people who see it. The things that
[10:10] are revolutionary. I most of the things
[10:12] that I've fallen in love with over my
[10:14] life creatively art when I first see it
[10:18] often or first hear it I might not like
[10:20] it at first because it's it's too much
[10:23] or I don't have any context for it. The
[10:27] true revolutionary works we don't have
[10:29] context for. It appears to me Rick that
[10:32] sometimes things that are more of the
[10:34] same do bigger numbers. So I've been
[10:37] thinking about maybe for a period of
[10:38] time I was thinking about two artists.
[10:41] One of them is
[10:44] Drake who listened makes great music
[10:46] makes hits everybody loves them. They
[10:47] come out we dance in the clubs to them
[10:49] etc. Then I was thinking about I think a
[10:51] record that you worked on with Kanye
[10:53] Jesus.
[10:54] >> Mhm.
[10:54] >> And I remember where I was when I first
[10:56] heard that as a huge Kanye fan. I
[10:58] thought here we go. I'm going to get
[10:58] more college dropout. Here we go. And I
[11:00] put it on and I was like what the
[11:02] is this?
[11:03] >> But then I loved it. And in my little
[11:05] group of six,
[11:06] >> how long did it take? A while.
[11:08] >> A while.
[11:09] >> It took a while. I mean, you know, with
[11:11] Jake stuff, I I tend to like it on first
[11:13] listen,
[11:14] >> but with that Jesus album,
[11:17] >> I had to really like persevere and then
[11:19] I thought it was was genius because it
[11:22] was a new paradigm.
[11:23] >> Um, you worked on that album.
[11:24] >> Yeah.
[11:26] And that that's a good example of like
[11:30] it was a sort of an anti-hip hop album
[11:33] and that was done intentionally and it
[11:35] definitely we went as far as we could
[11:39] into uh
[11:42] into an indefensible realm.
[11:45] >> But what about the numbers? What about
[11:47] the sales? What about the record label?
[11:49] >> Do is it an important album to you now?
[11:51] >> Yeah.
[11:52] >> Okay. Did its job.
[11:56] those near-term incentives though.
[11:57] Listen, we need Drake. We need you to
[11:59] make another.
[11:59] >> We never consider near-term incentive
[12:01] ever at any point in time. Never once.
[12:04] Never a consideration.
[12:07] It doesn't exist.
[12:09] We're making things
[12:12] forever.
[12:13] We're making things that are truly
[12:16] personal to us. And if it's truly
[12:19] personal to us, if someone doesn't get
[12:21] it,
[12:23] that's they just don't get it yet. Or
[12:25] maybe they'll never get it. And it's
[12:26] fine because I know this is my diary
[12:29] entry. Can someone else read your diary
[12:32] entry and tell you it's wrong, it's not
[12:35] good enough, or it's not true. It's not
[12:38] how you see the world. Everything we
[12:41] make is a diary entry. Everything we
[12:44] make is our personal
[12:48] true expression. The reason we're saying
[12:52] it is to show you see it like that. We
[12:55] see it like this or I see it like this.
[12:57] This is how I see it. And with that
[13:00] information, you can see it's like, ah,
[13:02] I never considered that before. There's
[13:05] more. The world is bigger than I
[13:06] thought.
[13:08] It's not just more the same. It's not
[13:10] just
[13:12] more numbers. And it's also the the more
[13:14] numbers game is a shorter term game. I
[13:16] remember I made an album with Lincoln
[13:18] Park who at the time
[13:21] were probably one of the biggest bands
[13:24] in the world and they had made three
[13:25] albums that were I would say
[13:29] stylistically very similar. They were
[13:32] rap rock and they were there was this
[13:36] there was a rap rock movement. corn, I
[13:39] guess. Rage Against the Machine was
[13:40] first, K, Limp Biscuit, all these bands.
[13:44] And Lincoln Park was probably the last
[13:47] of that wave of music. And they were
[13:50] wildly successful doing that music. And
[13:53] when we started working together, there
[13:55] was a choice. We could continue and do
[13:58] the next in that same style which the
[14:01] audience would love and it would be easy
[14:03] to do or we could be true to where the
[14:07] band was in this moment of time 10 years
[14:09] after they started about probably 8 10
[14:11] years after they started and be free to
[14:16] find the new sound the next sound. And
[14:19] when we did that, probably half of the
[14:21] audience didn't like it and half of the
[14:24] audience loved it and new people came
[14:27] along and they set themselves up
[14:32] to have a much longer career of making
[14:35] the things that they wanted to make.
[14:37] Whereas they were already on the tail
[14:39] end of a genre that had they made
[14:41] another one, maybe it would have been it
[14:44] probably would have been, you know, as
[14:46] successful as what they had done. But
[14:48] long-term the genre was dying.
[14:51] >> Mhm.
[14:52] >> Again, none of this was thought about at
[14:54] the time. Another example I think of is
[14:56] um Radio Heads Kid A. I remember when
[14:58] Kid A came out, I didn't like it at all.
[15:00] I loved the Benz and Okay Computer. They
[15:03] were my favorite band. And then they
[15:04] made this album Kid A. And it was
[15:06] totally different and it really
[15:08] alienated me. And today that might be my
[15:11] favorite Radio Head album. It feels like
[15:14] a risk. Yes. But that's all of the best
[15:17] things involve risk
[15:19] >> because I'm sure you've also got
[15:21] examples where someone followed that
[15:22] thesis of listening to what they wanted
[15:24] to make or doing it for themselves and
[15:25] not thinking too much about the audience
[15:27] and [clears throat] it didn't work.
[15:28] >> Of course,
[15:29] >> and they could have just made, you know,
[15:30] a hit and paid off their mortgage and
[15:33] >> yeah, it's not so interesting. I know
[15:35] it's not so interesting to me. I think
[15:36] that's it's a different game. That's
[15:38] the, you know, that's the investment
[15:41] commerce game and I'm in the art game.
[15:43] It's just a different thing. There's
[15:45] nothing wrong with that other game. It's
[15:48] just not my game.
[15:49] >> Which one leads to more success over the
[15:51] long term? Defined by, let's say, if we
[15:54] define success in this context, by the
[15:56] subjective opinion of people that that
[15:58] was good and money.
[16:00] >> All I can say is that I've been making
[16:02] things for 40 years. I have never done
[16:05] it the way you're suggesting. I have
[16:07] always taken the risk. I've always made
[16:11] my favorite thing. I've always supported
[16:13] the artists in making their favorite
[16:14] thing and luckily a lot of revolutionary
[16:19] things have happened from that and I
[16:21] would say things that
[16:23] probably inspired other artists to be
[16:27] more free and more true and more honest
[16:32] and take bigger risks to make something
[16:35] more interesting made the world more
[16:36] interesting place.
[16:38] >> Why do you think these people call you?
[16:41] I think it's probably different for
[16:43] different artists.
[16:44] >> Why did Jay-Z call you?
[16:46] >> The time that I first met Jay was when
[16:48] he was making the Black Album and he
[16:51] wanted to
[16:53] he was planning on retiring and this was
[16:55] going to be his swan song. His final
[16:57] album. The Black Album was the Jay-Z's
[16:59] last album. Turned out not to be, but
[17:01] that was the plan. And he asked his 10
[17:05] favorite producers to each make one
[17:07] track with them. And ours was called 99
[17:10] Problems. And it was a really fun
[17:13] experience to make.
[17:14] >> I mean, what an iconic record that is.
[17:17] What was your contribution to that
[17:18] record? Everybody knows that record.
[17:20] >> Everybody.
[17:20] >> Yeah. We created the track and we played
[17:22] it for Jay and he liked it and then he
[17:25] wrote the words and wrapped on top of
[17:27] it.
[17:28] >> So you you produced the music.
[17:30] >> Made the music. I read that you gave him
[17:32] direction in terms of the lyrics as
[17:34] well. When my friend Chris Rock had the
[17:36] idea of um
[17:39] Ice Tea had a song called 99 Problems
[17:42] that was the opposite. It was
[17:47] I have 99 problems and a ain't one
[17:49] and then it's a story about the girls.
[17:51] >> Mhm.
[17:53] >> And Chris said, you know, 99 problems
[17:55] would be a great hook and it doesn't
[17:57] have to be about the girls. And then I
[17:59] suggested to Jay, make it about the
[18:01] problems. And then that's what it was.
[18:04] and business people, startups, they seek
[18:07] your advice as well. Entrepreneurs
[18:09] >> all the time.
[18:10] >> And what are they seeking?
[18:11] >> Let's talk about 99 problems a little
[18:12] more because it's an interesting story.
[18:14] >> Sure.
[18:14] >> Jay-Z was signed to Def Jam Records. Def
[18:16] Jam Records was the label that I founded
[18:19] >> and I was no longer at Def Jam when we
[18:22] made 99 problems. And I remember giving
[18:25] it to the people at Def Jam and the
[18:26] person who was the president of Def Jam
[18:28] at the time listened to and he's like,
[18:29] "Oh, this is great. It'll never be a
[18:31] single, but it'll be a great album
[18:33] track." I remember thinking, okay, and
[18:34] again, I don't I don't know. I I I
[18:36] couldn't say, but
[18:39] the president of the label that I
[18:41] founded was saying this could never be a
[18:43] single because it doesn't sound like
[18:44] everything else on the radio.
[18:47] That was the old way of thinking. That
[18:49] was the normal way of thinking of like
[18:51] you make things to go on the radio that
[18:53] sound like everything else on the radio.
[18:55] But if you do that,
[18:58] who cares?
[19:00] It's just more the same. So 99 Problems
[19:04] didn't sound like anything on the radio.
[19:06] So when it eventually got on the radio,
[19:08] it had a big impact. Another band I work
[19:11] with is called System of a Down.
[19:12] >> Yeah, I remember.
[19:13] >> And I remember bringing their record to
[19:16] Kevin Weatherly at KRock, which is the
[19:18] rock station, alternative rock station
[19:20] in California. And if they play it, all
[19:24] of the other alternative rock stations
[19:25] in the country play it. They were like
[19:26] the leading station. And they this was a
[19:28] California band that was starting to get
[19:31] popular in the clubs. Maybe 200 people
[19:33] would come, but in a club, the club
[19:36] would sell out. Good sign. And I brought
[19:39] I think the song was called Sugar. And I
[19:41] brought it to Kevin Weatherly and I
[19:42] played it for him and he said, "Not only
[19:44] will we not play this record, we will
[19:46] never play this band on our station
[19:48] because it sounded insane. It didn't
[19:50] sound like anything else on the
[19:51] station." One year later, number one
[19:54] song on the station, most requested,
[19:58] and two weeks ago, I saw System of a
[20:00] Down sell out 80,000 seats in a stadium
[20:04] in Paris. They sold it out two nights in
[20:06] a row.
[20:08] I can't tell you how or why this this
[20:10] works. I can't tell you that there's
[20:13] anything to follow, but I will say we
[20:16] made the things that we loved.
[20:19] We never questioned if anyone else was
[20:21] going to like it. We never questioned
[20:23] what the audience was going to think. We
[20:24] never questioned where does it fit in
[20:26] the market. None of the none of those
[20:28] normal conversations.
[20:31] We made our favorite thing. We took it
[20:33] to an indefensible level as far as we
[20:36] could go and luckily
[20:41] it worked out.
[20:42] >> Is there a way to get clearer on what
[20:44] you love? This sounds like a strange
[20:45] question, but um
[20:47] >> meditate.
[20:48] >> Meditate. I learned to meditate when I
[20:50] was 14. And
[20:53] I think having a TM
[20:57] as a grounding element in my life,
[21:00] >> TM,
[21:01] >> a transcendental meditation. That was
[21:03] the first type of meditation I learned
[21:05] when I was 14.
[21:08] It it it changed me. I know this because
[21:11] I stopped meditating when I went to
[21:13] college. And then when I moved to
[21:15] California, right after college, I
[21:17] started meditating again. Somewhere I
[21:20] knew it was a big decision and somewhere
[21:22] I knew there would be a right moment to
[21:24] start. And it took several months before
[21:27] I actually sat for the first meditation
[21:29] after not doing it for several years.
[21:32] And in that first meditation, I
[21:34] realized, oh, this is this is very
[21:37] familiar to me.
[21:39] This is a big part of who I am, even
[21:42] though I haven't done it in 5 years.
[21:44] It's a big part of how I see the world.
[21:48] The fact that I got to do that from a
[21:51] young age
[21:52] >> to understand who you are with it, I'm
[21:54] going to ask you who you would be
[21:55] without it.
[21:56] >> I don't know. It it'd be I'm curious.
[22:00] I'm happy that I don't know because I
[22:02] like having the practice. But whether I
[22:05] continue a practice or not, I've done
[22:08] enough of it over the course of my life
[22:11] that
[22:13] I'm there. I'm when I meditate
[22:16] [clears throat] more, it gets deeper.
[22:19] But even if I don't meditate, it's like
[22:22] um Maharishi teacher of transcendental
[22:25] meditation Maharishi Mahesy Yogi says
[22:27] every time you meditate it's like making
[22:29] a deposit in the bank. So it builds up
[22:33] and again that was rhetoric before but
[22:36] in my experience I got to see oh it's
[22:38] not rhetoric like I I actually had this
[22:40] experience
[22:42] and it changed the way I saw the world
[22:44] and and I'll say you see beyond the
[22:48] surface.
[22:49] You can see the depth underneath. And
[22:53] for me the things on the surface are not
[22:55] so interesting.
[22:57] I'm interested in the depth the the the
[23:00] depth behind it.
[23:03] >> So my first question would be what is
[23:05] transcendental meditation?
[23:07] >> It's a mantra practice that's done
[23:10] silently.
[23:12] You do it sitting with your eyes closed.
[23:14] You learn it from a TM teacher. I can't
[23:16] teach it to you.
[23:18] >> We close our eyes and then the mantra is
[23:22] a sound vibration
[23:24] that gets given to you. I was given mine
[23:26] at when I was 14. I have never uttered
[23:29] it out loud since that time. I've never
[23:32] shared it with anyone. And that's part
[23:33] of the training. It It's like a a
[23:37] private sound
[23:39] and you engage with this sound in the
[23:43] way that you're taught.
[23:45] 20 minutes
[23:47] at least once a day, typically twice a
[23:49] day. I would do it right when I woke up
[23:51] in the morning and then again before
[23:52] dinner. Those would be the two the two
[23:54] windows. I when I lived in California
[23:58] and I was working in different recording
[23:59] studios, I meditated with Tom Petty and
[24:04] Johnny Cash and different artists before
[24:06] sessions that would be part of our
[24:08] practice. Red Hot Chili Peppers. We
[24:09] would sit and meditate together before
[24:11] sessions. So, I've had this experience
[24:13] for a while in my life and it's uh it's
[24:16] probably the most profound thing I can
[24:19] mention. We we'll get to others, but
[24:21] that that that's one that's a learnable,
[24:24] practicable action that really changed
[24:26] who I am.
[24:27] >> How did you know it was
[24:30] efficacious? How did you know it was
[24:32] working? What is the measure that this
[24:33] practice is worth that investment in
[24:35] time
[24:37] in your view?
[24:38] >> The only proof that I had was getting
[24:41] away from it and coming back to it. That
[24:43] was I I recognized it in that first
[24:46] meditation back
[24:48] how deep and connected I was to this
[24:51] thing.
[24:52] >> And I'm guessing this unlocks, you said
[24:54] a deeper level, a deeper level of
[24:56] creativity and ideas,
[24:57] >> everything.
[24:58] >> Oh,
[24:58] >> everything,
[25:00] deeper understanding.
[25:03] >> People often hear that meditation in
[25:05] various forms is beneficial. very
[25:08] successful people sit here all the time
[25:09] and say it's so it's so central to why
[25:11] I've been able to do what I've done. And
[25:13] then there'll be people, you know, that
[25:14] think, well, I sitting there for 10
[25:15] minutes. My brain is very, very busy.
[25:17] I've tried it once, it didn't really
[25:19] work. And then they move on. And then I
[25:21] study some of the great some of the
[25:22] great creatives in the world, the great
[25:23] visionaries, people that I thought could
[25:24] see round corners in an atypical way,
[25:26] like Steve Jobs. And there's always a
[25:29] practice, a meditation practice, well,
[25:30] so often at the very heart of of their
[25:33] brilliance. So I've I don't currently
[25:36] have a meditation practice. My wonderful
[25:38] fiance does. She does it every morning
[25:40] for 20 minutes. She's a breath work
[25:41] practitioner. So I mean it's her whole
[25:43] world. And tell me what she says about
[25:45] it.
[25:45] >> She says it unlocks a deeper level of um
[25:49] calm. And I don't mean calm as in like
[25:51] stress. I mean a deeper level of like
[25:53] groundedness.
[25:55] And she says
[25:57] she feels more connected.
[26:00] Now in her context I think that's more
[26:02] of like a spiritual thing. She feels
[26:03] more connected to the universe and and
[26:05] others.
[26:06] >> As far as the creative
[26:09] experience goes, a spiritual connection
[26:12] is a big part of that. It's just the
[26:14] nature of
[26:15] >> it's the nature of how it works. It's
[26:17] not an intellectual process. It's a
[26:19] spiritual process.
[26:21] >> What is the mechanism
[26:24] that is causing these results that you
[26:26] see? What from a biological perspective?
[26:28] I I couldn't answer that in the way that
[26:30] you would hope, but I will say I think
[26:33] it it allows you to let go of all of the
[26:39] ordinary concerns.
[26:42] I I also have a question which is if you
[26:45] live with a person who says this
[26:48] practice is so impactful on her life.
[26:52] I'm questioning why you at least haven't
[26:54] tried it with her for a month to see how
[26:57] >> good question.
[26:59] [laughter]
[27:00] >> No, it's a good question.
[27:01] >> I have no good answer for it.
[27:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's what it
[27:04] has to do with it's you're not looking
[27:06] for cues from the outside. You're
[27:09] looking for cues on the inside. What
[27:12] lights you up? What are you excited to
[27:15] play for your friend? Not what are you
[27:16] excited to play for your friend of like
[27:18] what do you think this will do?
[27:20] You're playing for your friend like wow
[27:22] can you believe something like this
[27:24] exists in the world? How cool is that?
[27:27] The distinction that I'm trying to make
[27:28] is often if you read business books or
[27:30] entrepreneurship books when they're
[27:31] talking about innovation when they're
[27:33] talking about the great companies like
[27:34] Amazon or I heard Sebastian who's the
[27:36] CEO of Clara say it the other day who's
[27:38] a tech founder they spend a lot of time
[27:41] thinking about the customer the
[27:42] customer's problem and they work
[27:44] backwards they call it to the answer. So
[27:47] they'll zoom in on Rick's world and say
[27:49] Rick has these problems he's d and
[27:51] they'll work backwards from there to a
[27:53] answer. That's how Amazon say they built
[27:56] the platform.
[27:57] >> And and one of the quotes that's quite
[27:59] famous with Jeff Bezos is he bets on
[28:02] things that he knows won't change. He
[28:04] says, "No one in 10 is going to come up
[28:05] to me and say I wish my package would
[28:07] take longer." So he can double down on
[28:09] that solving a customer problem. Does
[28:11] that sit in contrast to what you're
[28:13] saying or is it the same thing or it's a
[28:15] different type of work?
[28:16] >> Well, I'll start by saying if you look
[28:18] at the history of Amazon, it was it lost
[28:21] money for probably 20 years. It was
[28:23] considered one of the worst investments
[28:25] until it wasn't. They kept doubling down
[28:28] on what they believed in. It wasn't
[28:31] working. The audience showed it didn't
[28:34] work. The model showed it didn't work,
[28:37] but they stuck to what they believed and
[28:39] it changed the world.
[28:42] >> So, it's it's the same thing. It's it's
[28:45] doubling down on what you believe in
[28:48] when all of the metrics are showing you
[28:51] it's not working. That's the story of
[28:54] Amazon.
[28:55] Do you think people are um have
[28:57] different levels of their ability to uh
[29:00] you know if we take practices like
[29:02] meditation aside, it just seems that
[29:03] through history some people are better
[29:05] at cultivating that or listening to that
[29:08] internal voice than others. Obviously, I
[29:10] sit here and interview these like some
[29:11] of these great founders and it appears
[29:12] that some people are just like
[29:13] inherently more creative than others.
[29:17] Some people are in the analytical part
[29:19] of their brain and they need 1 plus one
[29:20] to equal two all the time. I'm wondering
[29:22] if you know there's other ways if you
[29:24] think there is an inherent difference in
[29:25] creativity.
[29:26] >> I think that creativity is beaten out of
[29:29] us over the course of our lives. I think
[29:31] we we go to school, we're told to repeat
[29:35] back what we're told. We're told to sit
[29:38] in a chair all day. We're where our
[29:41] spirits are broken by institutions.
[29:44] We're not taught to be free creative
[29:47] thinkers. We're taught to follow rules.
[29:51] The rules are not there to help us. The
[29:53] rules are there to control us.
[29:56] I'm suggesting we break free and be free
[30:00] and express ourselves freely. And that's
[30:03] our purpose here on the planet is to
[30:04] express ourselves freely. That's why
[30:06] we're here.
[30:08] >> What you're saying links to something we
[30:09] were talking about earlier, which is at
[30:10] a very young age, we're taught that the
[30:11] things we make are a means to a
[30:13] particular end, and that end is
[30:14] promotions, pay rises, capital, success,
[30:17] job titles.
[30:18] >> Yes.
[30:19] >> In the creative process, are you saying
[30:21] that it's never productive to talk about
[30:24] how we'll measure success and to try and
[30:27] optimize for that measurement
[30:31] >> in the creative process? I I would I
[30:33] tend not to think about those things.
[30:37] I can't think of an example where we
[30:39] would
[30:40] want to use data.
[30:43] [sighs and gasps]
[30:43] I think it's it's much more about this
[30:46] internal feeling and then the feeling we
[30:50] have when you play it for someone, when
[30:53] you share it with someone, whether it
[30:55] lights someone up. You can tell when
[30:57] someone really resonates with something.
[31:00] Sometimes the numbers don't show the
[31:03] numbers can't reflect that. You know,
[31:06] you can have two things that are kind of
[31:08] on equal footing commercially,
[31:12] yet one of them lights you up and the
[31:15] other one is, well, this gets the job
[31:17] done. They're different.
[31:21] And longterm, chances are the one that
[31:24] lights you up is going to have more
[31:27] value to you and you'll be more willing
[31:29] to support that thing over time.
[31:32] >> In your book here, um, the creative act,
[31:36] a way of being, you talk about the
[31:37] things that block creativity,
[31:40] thoughts and habits not conducive
[31:43] to the work. Believing you're not good
[31:46] enough.
[31:47] >> That's a big one. Someone at some point
[31:49] in time you were singing and someone's
[31:51] like, "Ah, you can't sing at when you're
[31:54] a kid and that gets lodged in you.
[31:56] Singing is not something I can ever do
[31:58] or you're a terrible cook
[32:01] or you're not smart enough." So often
[32:05] the gifts that we have are stifled and
[32:08] smothered.
[32:10] We're all creative. We may not choose to
[32:15] embark on a creative make creative
[32:18] choices, but that's it's on us. We can
[32:22] we just have bad information. We we
[32:25] we're told we're not good enough and we
[32:28] believe it and it's not true. When
[32:31] people say that, oh, you know, Rick is a
[32:32] creative and Steven is say they say
[32:34] Steven is not a creative. What are they
[32:36] actually saying? What is that like in
[32:38] our culture to be a creative? how like
[32:40] we misunderstanding the definition. You
[32:43] see what I'm saying? Cuz we do we go
[32:45] creative. Uh they do a little bit of art
[32:46] and music stuff. Creative, not creative.
[32:48] Excel documents. Creative.
[32:50] >> What are we actually saying there?
[32:53] >> I think it's a way to um
[32:56] try to simplify the world. The world is
[32:58] complicated and I think all of us can do
[33:01] anything. I I'm not saying all of us
[33:02] could do everything to the best of our
[33:04] ability better than anyone else. That's
[33:06] a big part of it is the idea of
[33:09] competition.
[33:11] Like if I want to play baseball, I know
[33:14] that I could get better at baseball.
[33:16] That doesn't mean I think I could get
[33:17] good enough to play on the Mets, but I
[33:20] know I could get better and I know I
[33:22] could train anything that I'm interested
[33:24] in and get much better at it.
[33:27] And as soon as we're not capable of
[33:30] playing for the Mets, we think it's not
[33:32] for us and we shut that off. We're not
[33:35] doing a service to ourselves. We're not
[33:38] becoming our best selves or really uh
[33:42] living up to our full potential as
[33:44] humans.
[33:46] Feels like a natural human instinct to
[33:48] compare in order to understand the value
[33:50] of anything. I feel like we do it when
[33:52] we go to restaurants. There's three
[33:53] stakes. The expensive one's probably a
[33:55] bit bougie. The cheap one's probably not
[33:57] good. I'll go for the middle one. Seems
[33:59] like a a way that humans take shortcuts,
[34:01] but we do it with ourselves as well. So,
[34:03] I know that the thing I've made is good
[34:04] as if I look over at your thing and mine
[34:08] is ranked better or mine is prettier or
[34:11] richer. Are you saying for us to get out
[34:14] of the business of comparison?
[34:15] >> Yes. Because I'm saying it's it's always
[34:18] apples and oranges. If you if if you
[34:20] were to ask who's better, Michael
[34:22] Jackson or Prince, I would say Michael
[34:25] Jackson's much better at being Michael
[34:27] Jackson. And Prince is probably better
[34:29] at being Prince. But you can't compare
[34:32] what the two of them do. They do two
[34:34] different things.
[34:36] Before you mentioned Kanye West and and
[34:39] Drake, there's no competition there.
[34:42] They do two totally different things.
[34:44] What you get from each of them is
[34:46] totally different. I wouldn't want from
[34:49] Drake what I get from Kanye. And I
[34:52] certainly wouldn't want from Kanye what
[34:53] I get from Drake. It's It's pointless.
[34:57] >> Is either more creative. That's for you
[35:00] to decide. That's for you to decide.
[35:02] There's no The whole idea of competition
[35:04] between artists is it's such a weird
[35:06] thing. Again, it's back to who has a
[35:08] better diary entry. It's ridiculous.
[35:12] >> Feeling you don't have the energy it
[35:15] takes. These are all things that are not
[35:17] conducive to the work.
[35:19] >> Yeah, I have that one sometimes.
[35:21] Feeling like I'm not up to it too much.
[35:25] I flew here yesterday from London. I'm
[35:28] tired. I'm a little jetlagged. I'm going
[35:30] to show up and talk to you. Maybe it
[35:32] won't be good. Maybe it's better to just
[35:36] lay down, relax, and recover. But I'm
[35:38] here. I show up.
[35:42] >> You've referred to yourself as a um a
[35:45] lazy workaholic.
[35:46] >> Yes, [laughter]
[35:47] >> it's true.
[35:47] >> What is a lazy workaholic?
[35:50] >> Often, most days, I would rather not do
[35:53] any of the things that I'm scheduled to
[35:54] do. and I schedule the things and I show
[35:58] up and I do what needs to get done.
[36:02] >> Do you ever settle with creative work?
[36:04] The the deadline for the record label is
[36:06] approaching. The work is not yet done.
[36:08] We'll finish here and we'll send it.
[36:11] >> I tend not to do that. I tend not to
[36:13] work on deadlines until we're past the
[36:16] point. The first time we would ever
[36:18] establish a deadline is when we already
[36:20] know we've cracked the code. We know
[36:23] what this is going to be. We can see it.
[36:25] It may not be completely finished, but
[36:28] we have a good idea of what it is and
[36:30] how it's going to work and it's maybe
[36:33] 90% done. Then we might set a deadline
[36:36] for that last 10% of finishing it. And
[36:39] that last 10% probably won't make or
[36:41] break the project.
[36:43] Part of what you accept when you pursue
[36:47] the creative process you've described
[36:49] where it's really about like do I like
[36:50] it? Do we like it? is you will create
[36:54] things that are at some some points just
[36:56] absolute legendary and unlike anything
[36:58] else that exists. They are not the same.
[37:00] But part of the risk you take is you'll
[37:02] make things that other people just don't
[37:03] like.
[37:04] >> Yeah. That's all there is in this
[37:06] process is you have an idea, you build
[37:09] it. You may learn along the way that the
[37:11] idea was maybe not the best idea and it
[37:13] turns left and you make I I'm starting
[37:15] out to make this blue statue and it
[37:18] turns out to be this red painting. You
[37:21] don't know that going in, but you
[37:23] discover it through the process, and it
[37:25] could take a long time. Other times,
[37:27] you'll think, "I'm going to make this
[37:29] blue thing." You make it in 5 minutes.
[37:32] There it is. Done. And and we can't you
[37:36] can't calculate that. You can't
[37:38] anticipate what's going to happen. But
[37:40] if I wasn't doing this experiment here,
[37:43] I would never get to the better thing.
[37:45] It happens all the time. And then
[37:48] sometimes you build it and it doesn't
[37:50] work for 20 years and then it becomes
[37:53] Amazon.
[37:55] >> I've thought a lot recently about how
[37:57] time horizons change the work that you
[38:00] do. And that's kind of also what I'm
[38:01] hearing there because in that example
[38:03] you gave of this blue statue thing. If
[38:05] you were under a time horizon, you
[38:07] wouldn't have the space for that
[38:08] exploration you've described. And
[38:10] actually in all of our lives, we I think
[38:12] apply time horizons. We say this part of
[38:15] my career is going to be 5 years. and in
[38:16] in those 5 years I want to achieve these
[38:18] things. How do you think about setting
[38:20] personal time horizons but also like
[38:22] creative time horizons? One of the
[38:24] things I talk about in the book is that
[38:25] there are different um phases of
[38:28] creativity. The first phase is the seed
[38:31] phase, then is the experimentation
[38:33] phase, then is the crafting phase and
[38:36] then is the finishing completion
[38:40] editorial phase. And you can't set a
[38:44] timeline
[38:46] early in that process. In the seed
[38:48] phase, you have to try a lot of things
[38:51] and it's going to take as long as it
[38:52] takes. And in the experimental phase,
[38:53] which is where you're taking the seeds
[38:55] and seeing what they want to be, that
[38:58] takes time. And then in the crafting
[39:00] phase, the third phase still takes time
[39:02] because now you have the seed, you see
[39:05] what it wants to be. You've given it
[39:06] time to just state. You see how it
[39:08] grows. And now in the crafting phase,
[39:10] the third phase, you start trimming it
[39:12] and making it the way you see it.
[39:15] All of that has to happen before there's
[39:18] any idea of a timeline because until
[39:21] that time, you don't really know what
[39:22] you're making. It's a dream. But once
[39:25] you've gotten gone through these three
[39:27] phases and you have this thing in front
[39:29] of you, it may not be finished, but you
[39:31] see what it is. You see it and it's
[39:34] good. You're excited about it. When I
[39:37] say it's good, I mean it's good to me.
[39:40] That's it. That's where it ends. It's
[39:43] good to me. I like it enough that I'm
[39:46] willing to show it to you. If I like it
[39:48] enough that I'm willing to show it to
[39:50] you, I like it enough to show it to
[39:51] everybody.
[39:52] >> People will hear this as creative
[39:54] advice. I was hearing it as life advice.
[39:55] I was hearing the seed phase of my life,
[39:57] the experimentation phase of my life,
[39:59] the crafting phase.
[40:00] >> It's the same. It's all the same. And
[40:02] that's why the the creative act started
[40:04] with this idea of how to make things.
[40:08] And it turned what I realized through
[40:09] writing the book is it's how to be in
[40:12] the world that that you you either live
[40:16] your life to allow these things to
[40:18] happen or you don't. And if you live
[40:21] your life to allow these things to
[40:23] happen, then you're an artist. Even if
[40:25] you're a businessman or if you're a chef
[40:28] or if you're a mother,
[40:31] you're living your life as an artist.
[40:33] You're embodying it
[40:36] and it's coming from you and it's I want
[40:40] to say it's who you are. It's not who
[40:42] you are, but it's who you are in that
[40:44] moment. I'm showing you this beautiful
[40:46] thing as a reflection of how I see the
[40:49] world today. Now, tomorrow I may see the
[40:52] world differently. That's fine. But when
[40:54] I share it with you, this is the best it
[40:57] can be in this moment.
[40:59] >> The reason I was asking this question
[41:00] about the um you know sometimes they the
[41:04] world might not like what you give it.
[41:05] >> Yeah.
[41:06] >> Is because because of this word failure
[41:08] which you talk about in the book as well
[41:10] and how to deal with failure. I guess a
[41:12] lot of the reason why people won't take
[41:13] the risk to listen to themselves to what
[41:16] they love is because of the word risk.
[41:19] And with that comes I might lose money.
[41:22] I might lose friends. If I quit this job
[41:23] and pursue that violin hobby and go to
[41:26] Peru and violin up in Peru, my I'm going
[41:28] to lose friends. People are going to
[41:29] think I'm strange. So I I'll conform.
[41:33] Yeah. And I'm saying you have to do all
[41:35] of those things. Lose the friends. Take
[41:37] the risk. Now, I'm not I'm and and I'm
[41:40] also saying
[41:42] I'm not saying that for that 100% if you
[41:45] go move to Peru and be the violinist,
[41:47] it's going to work. And you may want to
[41:50] have an actual job to pay the bills
[41:53] while you're doing that. That's okay.
[41:56] The idea that it all has to be one
[41:59] thing. I have to do my dream thing and
[42:02] it has to be my prof. It has to be my
[42:04] hobby, my love, my profession. The way I
[42:08] support myself doesn't have to be. When
[42:11] I started making music, I thought I was
[42:12] going to have a real job and I'd make
[42:14] music and it would be my hobby. I would
[42:15] do it forever. I would do exactly what I
[42:17] was doing. But I thought I would have a
[42:19] real job to support myself to do these
[42:22] things that I want to do. Luckily, I was
[42:26] able to it it turned into its own thing
[42:29] by nothing that I did. Had no
[42:31] expectation that that it could be a
[42:32] profession. I had no it couldn't be. It
[42:35] was a ridiculous idea. I did it because
[42:37] I loved it. And while I was going to
[42:40] school and while I was probably going to
[42:41] go go to law school and I would have a
[42:44] regular job, day job, and I would do
[42:47] music as the love of my life. That's
[42:49] what I would do. Luckily, I didn't have
[42:52] to do that. But that's what would have
[42:54] happened. A lot of people at that age
[42:56] are told to follow their passion, find
[42:58] their purpose, which sounds like this,
[43:00] you know, cuz the word passion is a
[43:01] singular word. And also the word find
[43:03] means I have to go go out there and
[43:05] actively pursue the thing. A lot of
[43:07] people listening now would would say,
[43:09] you know, I've been told to find my
[43:10] passion and when they look at their job
[43:12] in the factory or wherever it might be,
[43:14] whatever they're doing, they go, okay,
[43:16] this isn't it yet, but I will get there
[43:19] at some point later.
[43:20] >> Yeah.
[43:21] >> And I will jump. So you're saying don't
[43:22] jump necessarily. There are realities of
[43:25] life that you have to deal with. I'm not
[43:26] saying ignore the fact that you get you
[43:29] have to pay rent or or say I'm happy
[43:32] living in my parents house until until
[43:35] it works. That's fine. I'm saying there
[43:37] are realities of life that have to be
[43:39] dealt with. Don't put the pressure of of
[43:42] that on your art because then you won't
[43:45] make the best decisions. You'll make
[43:47] short-term decisions based on real world
[43:51] issues that you have to deal with in
[43:53] that moment that won't support the
[43:56] long-term benefit of the work you're
[43:58] doing, the real work you're doing.
[44:00] >> I'm sure you've sat there in those
[44:01] moments where you're trying to persuade
[44:02] an artist to follow themselves and what
[44:05] they No,
[44:06] >> I don't try to persuade anyone of
[44:07] anything.
[44:07] >> Oh, really? Okay.
[44:09] >> I don't I wouldn't use that word. I
[44:11] wouldn't use the word persuade.
[44:12] >> What word would you use?
[44:14] >> We talk about it. I I ask what are your
[44:17] what do you hope to accomplish and then
[44:20] I'd support that process.
[44:21] >> Can we role play? I pretend I'm an
[44:23] artist who wants to write an album. So,
[44:25] >> okay. So, I am actually learning to DJ.
[44:26] I've been learning for like 4 years.
[44:28] >> What would you say to me? So, I can come
[44:30] say Rick, I want to make an album.
[44:31] >> What would the first questions be to me?
[44:33] >> Play me the of all the things you've
[44:35] made, play me your favorites. Let's talk
[44:37] about it. I would listen to it and then
[44:39] we would talk about it.
[44:40] >> So, I play you uh let's say it's a a
[44:43] house song. I play it. I said,
[44:44] [laughter] "This is my favorite."
[44:45] >> I would tell you whatever I think about
[44:47] it. Honestly,
[44:48] >> honestly, even if you thought it was
[44:50] terrible.
[44:51] >> Yeah. I probably wouldn't say it in a in
[44:53] a unpleasant way, but I would probably
[44:55] ask more questions around it. Get ask
[44:58] how, you know, explain to me what it is
[44:59] that you like about it. How did you get
[45:01] to that? What equipment did you use? Was
[45:04] it fun making it? Was it a good
[45:05] experience? Have you played it for other
[45:06] people? What's it like? What's the
[45:08] experience like? What's the feeling you
[45:10] get when you when you're making it?
[45:11] What's the feeling you get when you play
[45:12] it for a friend? Have you ever played it
[45:13] in a club? What's that like? I would
[45:15] listen to what you say and then we would
[45:17] talk about it. Often an artist will come
[45:19] to me, they'll tell me exactly what they
[45:22] want to do and then say, "I have no idea
[45:25] what I want to do. Can you help me?"
[45:28] It's like they can't they can't hear
[45:30] themselves.
[45:33] There's a we we all have this barrier
[45:36] between it's it's a little bit how
[45:38] therapy works. If you go to see a
[45:40] therapist, you might talk They might not
[45:43] say anything, but through the talking
[45:46] you start understanding
[45:48] what you believe, what you think, what's
[45:51] going on in your life. You might have
[45:53] epiphies just because someone's
[45:54] listening. Most people are not used to
[45:57] being heard,
[46:00] really heard, deeply heard. Often you
[46:03] will say something to someone and
[46:05] they're thinking about what they're
[46:07] going to say next, like what what
[46:09] they're they're not really hearing what
[46:12] you're saying.
[46:13] And um I find if you really are there
[46:16] and listen to what someone's saying,
[46:20] they tell you what they want to do and
[46:22] then my job is to just help remove the
[46:26] roadblocks that they're putting in the
[46:28] way of themselves
[46:30] to get there. And when they say what
[46:32] they want to do but then ask you what
[46:33] they should do.
[46:34] >> Yeah.
[46:35] >> Is that a lack of sort of selfrust? What
[46:37] what is
[46:38] >> Yeah. Yes. But that lack of selfrust is
[46:41] what is the condition of the world?
[46:44] That's what we're that's how we're
[46:46] indoctrinated. We most people don't
[46:48] trust themselves. And it's a fine line
[46:51] because there are the few people who
[46:53] might seem to really trust themselves
[46:57] and you think, "Oh, they're
[46:58] egoomaniacs." H usually when someone
[47:02] really comes off as wildly egotistical,
[47:06] it's usually hiding some insecurities
[47:09] really. It's like a mask. So that's
[47:12] dealing with someone who's insecure and
[47:14] dealing with someone who's
[47:15] overconfident. It's often two sides of
[47:18] the same coin. And we're really looking
[47:20] for this middle place of reality. It's
[47:23] like not what you're afraid of about
[47:26] yourself, but or what other people are
[47:30] going to think, but where are you really
[47:32] on this? I often describe it as tasting
[47:35] food. Like if I gave you two pieces of
[47:37] pizza and say, "Taste the two pieces of
[47:38] pizza. Tell me which one you like
[47:40] better." It's not a hard question.
[47:43] You'll probably say, "I like this one
[47:44] much better than this." And when I ask
[47:47] you which tastes better, you wouldn't
[47:48] say, "Well, I think this guy's going to
[47:50] like this pizza better.
[47:53] You would say, "This one tastes better
[47:55] to me."
[47:57] That's the goal is getting to that,
[47:58] "This one tastes better to me." Simple.
[48:02] We don't believe that it can be as
[48:05] simple as it is. And it is simple.
[48:10] If you were um to bet on an artist being
[48:13] one of these great artists that you've
[48:14] worked with because they have a set of
[48:17] characteristics or a perspective or a
[48:19] humility that is conducive with what
[48:22] you've seen results in exceptional work.
[48:25] What are those like similar attributes?
[48:27] As someone that does a lot of investing
[48:29] in entrepreneurs, um I was wondering if
[48:31] there were similarities even there cuz
[48:34] some of it sounded the same.
[48:35] >> I'm sure there are. Um, I asked a friend
[48:37] of mine who is a venture capital guy
[48:41] about when he's picking things to invest
[48:44] in, is it the premise of the business or
[48:48] is it the founder? And he said, it's
[48:50] always the founder doesn't matter what
[48:52] the business is.
[48:53] >> He said, if I believe in the person,
[48:56] >> I'll back them.
[48:57] >> Mhm.
[48:59] >> And
[49:01] I suppose it's it would be the same with
[49:03] artists. just like it's it's the artists
[49:06] not like well they wrote a great song.
[49:10] The great song is more like the great
[49:11] product. It's like
[49:14] maybe they could do that again.
[49:17] But if you see that the way that they
[49:19] see music, the way that they innovate in
[49:22] the things that they make,
[49:25] that's a good sign. Tell you a story.
[49:27] Uh, the band The Strokes.
[49:29] >> I produced their new album, just came
[49:30] out maybe a month ago, and they had
[49:32] asked me to produce an album for them
[49:34] maybe
[49:36] I want to say 15 years ago, and I
[49:39] listened to the demos, and I didn't hear
[49:42] it. I didn't I didn't I'm not saying it
[49:44] couldn't be good. I just didn't see the
[49:47] way in. For me, it's like I don't think
[49:50] I should do this. I don't I don't feel
[49:52] it. And then they asked me another time
[49:54] maybe 12 years ago and I listened to the
[49:58] demos and I didn't hear it. I couldn't I
[50:02] just I don't see how to do it. So I
[50:04] passed.
[50:05] >> I didn't see how to do it. Give me some
[50:08] color on what that means.
[50:09] >> Yeah. It's like um when I hear something
[50:12] and I know I can see a path.
[50:16] I can hear a thing. doesn't have to be
[50:19] good, but I could hear something in it
[50:21] of like I understand what this is and I
[50:23] can I'm c I want to see what this can
[50:26] become.
[50:27] >> I didn't feel that the first two times.
[50:29] And then on the first album we worked on
[50:32] together, which came out about 6 years
[50:34] ago, they sent me demos again. They were
[50:37] probably the worst demos they ever sent,
[50:40] but I could hear what it could be. And
[50:43] some one of the demos might be a 20
[50:45] second voice note. Whereas in the past
[50:48] there were these produced demos of like
[50:50] here's our great new songs. But in this
[50:53] 202 voice note I could listen and think
[50:57] I really want to hear this whole song.
[50:59] Whatever this is this seed of an idea.
[51:04] This is going to be good. Has the
[51:05] potential to really be good.
[51:07] >> How do you know?
[51:08] >> Feel it. There is no knowing. It's a
[51:10] it's a it's a knowingness. It's like I
[51:13] have a knowingness. I couldn't explain
[51:16] it to you. It's uh an internal
[51:19] experience. One of the things is again
[51:21] you tend to want to lean forward, not
[51:23] lean back. You tend to want to listen
[51:25] again, not skip to the next one. It
[51:28] generates curiosity. It generates
[51:30] interest
[51:34] and I want to know more. Do you set
[51:36] goals in your own life?
[51:38] >> None.
[51:40] You strike me as someone who has a
[51:44] who is okay with uncertainty in a world
[51:46] where most people need certainty in
[51:47] order to take forward motion or take an
[51:48] action in a direction. I know
[51:51] uncertainty is real. I had a house in
[51:54] Malibu that was my main house with all
[51:56] of my possessions that 8 years ago
[51:59] burned in a fire. And when that
[52:01] happened, you very quickly see like I
[52:04] thought I would live there forever. When
[52:06] that happened, I realized, hm,
[52:08] impermanence is real.
[52:10] >> I thought I was going to live there
[52:11] forever. It's gone now. It's it's a lot.
[52:15] It's a a dirt lot.
[52:18] So, I I don't think that we can know
[52:20] anything. We just kind of move along and
[52:25] make decisions based on the information
[52:27] we have at the time and life unfolds.
[52:31] I guess an analogy would be satnav in
[52:33] the car. You get in the car in the
[52:35] morning, you, you know, put your seat
[52:37] belt on, then you set your satnav and
[52:38] say, "This is my goal. This is where I
[52:40] want to go." And then you drive. So, you
[52:42] put action towards that goal. What
[52:44] you're saying sounds more like you just
[52:46] drive.
[52:47] >> Yeah. All the time.
[52:50] Yeah. I used to do that. I remember um
[52:52] It's funny you bring that up, but there
[52:54] was a period of time
[52:57] when I worked a lot in the recording
[53:00] studio. a lot of hours, many sessions at
[53:02] sometimes I made eight albums a year and
[53:04] I'd be working on different projects at
[53:06] the same time and then I would have a
[53:07] day off on the weekend and I wouldn't
[53:09] make any plans but I would just drive
[53:11] and just listen to music in the car and
[53:14] drive and I might end up somewhere but I
[53:17] might just drive for a couple of hours
[53:19] and relax and it felt good.
[53:21] >> You might get lost though and that's the
[53:23] risk.
[53:23] >> That's okay.
[53:26] >> That's why we have goals in our life.
[53:27] That's why we make a 5year plan, a New
[53:28] Year's resolution. Yeah, I've never done
[53:30] any of those things. Couldn't imagine
[53:31] it.
[53:33] Seems like a a terrible limitation.
[53:37] As good as it can be, I could never
[53:39] imagine that.
[53:42] I would have much more ordinary
[53:43] understanding of the world than what
[53:45] what actually happens than seeing the
[53:48] impossible become possible on a regular
[53:51] basis. I certainly couldn't plan for
[53:53] that. now because it's happened so much
[53:55] in my life. I accept that's how it is
[54:00] and I'm on the ride.
[54:03] >> You accept the unknown and the
[54:05] uncertainty.
[54:05] >> The unknown.
[54:07] >> Is that something that we can all do or
[54:10] is that a privilege that you have now
[54:11] that you're so successful in that
[54:14] >> we limit ourselves in so many ways?
[54:18] I can remember a very successful artist
[54:22] who was going through a really hard time
[54:25] went out to dinner at this restaurant in
[54:26] Malibu. I remember specifically what it
[54:28] was. And I remember thinking this person
[54:32] might commit suicide. That's how I could
[54:34] feel their energy was so
[54:39] unbalanced
[54:41] and so conflicted and they were
[54:43] suffering.
[54:45] And I remember saying, you know, you
[54:48] don't have to keep doing this. You know,
[54:51] you've done a lot of great things.
[54:52] You've had great success. You can afford
[54:54] not to do this. And anytime you want to,
[54:58] you can say, you know what? I'm going to
[55:00] move to the other side of the world and
[55:02] live on the beach and just eat good
[55:05] food, play in the water. You're not
[55:08] obligated to continue doing what you're
[55:11] doing that's causing so much conflict in
[55:14] your life.
[55:15] you've done enough.
[55:18] And
[55:20] I found out years later, I didn't even
[55:23] know that the person really heard what I
[55:25] was saying cuz they were they were
[55:26] really in a a hard place.
[55:29] But years later, that person said to me,
[55:32] "Remember what you said? You said I
[55:34] could go I could check out."
[55:37] And he did. I He didn't do it in the way
[55:39] that I imagined. I didn't know that
[55:41] that's what happened, but he did that.
[55:44] I know several people who committed
[55:46] suicide and I have one friend, a good
[55:48] friend who
[55:51] unsuccessfully tried to commit suicide.
[55:54] All of them when in those moments it's
[55:57] like they feel like the choices I've
[56:00] made have me boxed in and there's no way
[56:05] out.
[56:07] And when someone thinks that
[56:11] the the the
[56:14] inclination to commit suicide is the
[56:17] person knows something needs to die
[56:20] and they think the body needs to die.
[56:23] But in reality
[56:25] that those choices that they made, that
[56:27] lifestyle in that moment, that career
[56:30] path, that
[56:32] relationship,
[56:34] that's what needs to die. and they can
[56:37] go and start a whole new life.
[56:41] And we we don't see that. We we get very
[56:44] locked in thinking this is all there is
[56:48] and this is not all there is. This is
[56:51] what we have chosen
[56:53] and we're going along on this path and
[56:56] at any time we say you know what I want
[56:59] to do it all differently.
[57:02] I want to start a whole new life in a
[57:04] whole new way. And you and that doesn't
[57:07] take a lot of money to do. It might take
[57:09] less money to do because you can move to
[57:11] somewhere in the world that costs
[57:12] nothing to live, beautiful places where
[57:14] people are happy. It's just a choice.
[57:18] It's almost like we're playing a game.
[57:21] It's a game of chess.
[57:24] You can get up and leave the table and
[57:25] not play anymore and go on and play a
[57:28] different game and have fun.
[57:31] It's always available to us.
[57:34] You could press a button and it all goes
[57:36] away. And it doesn't mean that you have
[57:39] to die for that to happen. Just that
[57:42] scenario has to stop and you go on find
[57:45] a new one. I've seen a lot online again
[57:48] about how to find your flow. That
[57:50] feeling when everything just clicked,
[57:51] distractions disappear, and suddenly
[57:53] you're operating at your very very best.
[57:55] But most of us treat flow like it's
[57:56] something that just happens randomly.
[57:58] But when you're operating at the highest
[57:59] level, you can't just leave that to
[58:01] chance, or at least you don't want to.
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[58:04] be able to zone in on demand. That's the
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[59:42] A lot of the um the prison that I think
[59:44] uh
[59:46] I almost hear you sort of referring to
[59:48] that we've kind of built that makes us
[59:50] feel boxed in is our identity.
[59:53] >> This word identity. I am a lawyer in
[59:57] Manhattan and a father and a and I took
[1:00:00] that identity. It's almost a bit of a
[1:00:02] trade I made. I I accepted it which
[1:00:04] meant that at cocktail parties people
[1:00:06] were impressed by me.
[1:00:07] >> Yeah. And so, you know, we traded
[1:00:09] something for something else and now
[1:00:12] we're boxed in. And now a lot, you know,
[1:00:14] I hear a lot from our listeners on this
[1:00:16] show like they feel stuck.
[1:00:17] >> Yeah.
[1:00:19] >> We're free.
[1:00:21] We're free. We just have to choose to
[1:00:24] take advantage of this human gift of
[1:00:27] freedom and we can start over.
[1:00:32] I remember the one close friend who
[1:00:35] tried to commit suicide and didn't
[1:00:37] luckily lived. I went to visit him in
[1:00:41] the hospital.
[1:00:42] He was laying in in a hospital bed and
[1:00:46] he was seemingly catatonic. He hadn't
[1:00:49] spoke since this happened. And I was
[1:00:51] standing in the hallway
[1:00:54] and there were a series of his friends
[1:00:56] coming to see him. Everybody would go
[1:00:58] into the room one at a time. And I
[1:01:00] listened to the two people who went in
[1:01:02] before me and they were crying and they
[1:01:06] were acting as if he had died.
[1:01:10] Now he's laying there. He's in fetal
[1:01:13] position. He's not saying a word. And
[1:01:15] I'm just thinking this this is really
[1:01:18] weird. This is it's really the whole
[1:01:20] scene is weird. Never seen anything like
[1:01:23] it before.
[1:01:25] And my first thought was the people who
[1:01:27] are going in there and talking to him,
[1:01:28] they have no idea how to act. None of us
[1:01:31] do because this is an unusual situ
[1:01:33] unless you've been in it, which I hadn't
[1:01:35] been before, you'd have no idea what to
[1:01:37] do. But I knew from listening,
[1:01:41] this is not the best. What they're doing
[1:01:43] is not the best situation. There's a
[1:01:46] better way. And I was the next one in.
[1:01:48] And I went in and I looked down and I
[1:01:52] said,
[1:01:54] again, I don't know where this came
[1:01:55] from, but it came. I said,
[1:01:58] "This may be hard for you to see right
[1:02:00] now, but you're in the sweet spot."
[1:02:04] And I remember saying that and he looked
[1:02:07] at me and he looked at me like I was
[1:02:08] insane.
[1:02:10] But it was the first re the first time
[1:02:12] anyone the first thing he reacted to was
[1:02:15] that.
[1:02:18] And I said, "You just hit the reset
[1:02:20] button."
[1:02:22] I said, "All of the things that you hate
[1:02:25] to do, that you feel obligated to do,
[1:02:28] that you feel committed to do, that made
[1:02:32] you want to not be here anymore,
[1:02:36] you just hit the reset button. You never
[1:02:38] have to do any of those things again.
[1:02:42] And now you can do anything you want.
[1:02:45] you're free to start. All of those old
[1:02:48] ideas, none of those obligations are
[1:02:51] hanging over your head. And we ended up
[1:02:54] having a really nice conversation and he
[1:02:56] got up and he got dressed and he was
[1:02:57] like himself. It was an amazing an
[1:03:00] amazing experience.
[1:03:03] But that that's how
[1:03:06] boxed in we feel.
[1:03:09] But it's all just a story. It's not
[1:03:12] true. We are free.
[1:03:15] Is there a step one in that direction
[1:03:17] for people that want to hit the reset
[1:03:18] button? Is there a first step?
[1:03:21] >> Well, I would try to see what are the
[1:03:23] things in your life that really you want
[1:03:26] to change and then think about what's
[1:03:28] the what's the cleanest way to change
[1:03:31] them, leaving a job, leaving a
[1:03:34] relationship.
[1:03:36] You know the the reason these things
[1:03:37] happen is we make commitments with good
[1:03:40] intentions and then when it's hard to
[1:03:43] keep the commitment is where it starts
[1:03:45] feeling boxed in. Now I think
[1:03:47] commitments are a good thing both to
[1:03:49] make and to keep. That said there can be
[1:03:52] a point where it becomes life and death.
[1:03:57] It's like this commitment that I made
[1:03:58] was a mistake and it was and or
[1:04:00] something changed. Maybe the person that
[1:04:03] I married became an alcoholic and it's
[1:04:06] really hard living with an alcoholic and
[1:04:08] it's not fun. This is not what we signed
[1:04:10] up for and I can do everything I can to
[1:04:13] help this person but maybe nothing works
[1:04:17] and at some point it's okay to hit the
[1:04:20] reset button and say you know what
[1:04:23] you're not doing any favors if you're if
[1:04:26] you're locked in a situation. I have a
[1:04:28] lot of friends who are in relationships
[1:04:31] and maybe the relationship has gone
[1:04:33] south but they stay in it because both
[1:04:36] both sides of the couple feel like this
[1:04:39] is the life we signed up for [sighs]
[1:04:42] and in reality you're not doing any
[1:04:45] favors for the person being unhappy in a
[1:04:47] relationship. It's the nature of love is
[1:04:51] it's a two-way street or the same the
[1:04:54] same I can say if someone is in love
[1:04:57] with someone and the other person un
[1:04:59] unrequited love the person's not in love
[1:05:01] with them there's no really such thing
[1:05:04] because the nature of love is it's like
[1:05:07] a negative and a positive magnet
[1:05:11] pull pulling towards each other.
[1:05:15] You can't have one side of the magnet in
[1:05:17] love. It doesn't work. And it's just a
[1:05:21] fantasy of what you know, it's a it's a
[1:05:23] beautiful fantasy of what you think like
[1:05:25] as an optimist, it could be so
[1:05:27] beautiful,
[1:05:30] but if it's not there,
[1:05:33] it's best for everyone involved.
[1:05:35] Sometime I have some friends who feel
[1:05:37] like, well, I don't want to break up
[1:05:38] with them because it'll it'll um it'll
[1:05:41] destroy them. It's not true. It's better
[1:05:45] for everyone involved if it's not
[1:05:47] working to find the new beautiful life.
[1:05:51] You can do that. It's okay. I imagine as
[1:05:54] well there's some people who um have
[1:05:56] lots of small misalignments. None of
[1:05:58] them are are huge issues on their own,
[1:06:00] but now they have a life full of hundred
[1:06:02] small misaligned things. Could be
[1:06:04] anything. Um and so their life feels
[1:06:06] really fundamentally misaligned, but
[1:06:07] it's actually just maybe they struggled
[1:06:09] with honesty across many little areas of
[1:06:11] their life.
[1:06:11] >> Yeah. And maybe those can be worked on
[1:06:13] and maybe it can be fixed. But in either
[1:06:15] case, don't let it just linger, you
[1:06:17] know, repair them. It's hard
[1:06:19] conversations there, Rick.
[1:06:20] >> Yeah.
[1:06:21] >> A lot of people aren't good at that.
[1:06:22] But, you know, people pleasers and
[1:06:24] there's a through line here with
[1:06:25] creativity generally. I think this idea
[1:06:26] of like people pleasing, the difficult
[1:06:28] conversation. And I've obviously seen
[1:06:30] from some of the things you've mentioned
[1:06:31] through this conversation, like you
[1:06:32] would be willing to tell people like
[1:06:33] this isn't for me. I imagine you offered
[1:06:35] a lot of money a lot of the time as
[1:06:37] well.
[1:06:37] >> Yeah. How do you sort of pass through
[1:06:39] that if you're offered a ton of money to
[1:06:41] do something but at some level it's not
[1:06:43] aligned with your principles or values
[1:06:46] or
[1:06:47] >> I want to make good things like I want
[1:06:49] to make something good.
[1:06:51] >> Have you turned down large numbers of in
[1:06:54] in terms of money or other incentives
[1:06:57] because you didn't feel something was
[1:06:59] going to be good or was aligned or
[1:07:01] >> Yeah, I'm sure I have. I can't think of
[1:07:03] examples but I'm sure I have. I I I
[1:07:05] don't think about the stuff like I think
[1:07:07] about the things I do. I don't think
[1:07:08] about things I don't do, you know.
[1:07:10] >> Does it matter to you the money part of
[1:07:12] it?
[1:07:12] >> I want to be in success.
[1:07:17] I want to participate in the success. I
[1:07:19] think that's right. That feels right to
[1:07:21] me. I never make a decision
[1:07:25] for a financial reason. That said, if we
[1:07:30] make something successful,
[1:07:32] that's valuable.
[1:07:34] >> And in your own life, and we're talking
[1:07:35] there about mental health through your
[1:07:38] early 30s, you had a depressive episode
[1:07:41] yourself.
[1:07:41] >> Yeah.
[1:07:43] >> Was there a causal factor? And how how
[1:07:46] important was that in shaping how you
[1:07:47] think generally about the world and the
[1:07:49] art and the creativity? Cuz I know it
[1:07:50] I've heard you say on News Day that it
[1:07:52] changed you permanently.
[1:07:53] >> It did. Take me into that part of your
[1:07:57] life. You're 33 years old, my age.
[1:07:59] >> Yeah.
[1:07:59] >> What What happened?
[1:08:01] >> What happened was I had been an only
[1:08:03] child.
[1:08:05] My parents really loved me, really cared
[1:08:08] about me, always supportive.
[1:08:12] I went to school. I started making music
[1:08:14] as a hobby. It ended up taking on a life
[1:08:17] of its own and becoming a business and
[1:08:19] had great success for all those years.
[1:08:24] And then at 33 for the first time
[1:08:27] it got called into question. I had a
[1:08:30] business relationship with a big
[1:08:32] company. The person who I was in
[1:08:35] relationship with was one of the
[1:08:38] probably the top person in the whole
[1:08:40] music industry. Well-loved, beautiful
[1:08:41] person, one of my mentors. He got
[1:08:44] politically forced out and a new person
[1:08:47] was put in who I didn't have a
[1:08:48] relationship with. And that person
[1:08:50] called me and said, 'I read your I read
[1:08:52] our agreement because he had adopted the
[1:08:54] agreement that I had with my mentor.
[1:08:57] He's like, I don't like it. When you
[1:08:59] come back to California, we should talk
[1:09:00] about it. That was it. That was the
[1:09:03] whole conversation. Now, for me, I I
[1:09:05] didn't I didn't know because I'd had
[1:09:10] so much success for so long. I never I
[1:09:13] never had to deal with any instability
[1:09:16] in my life in that way. I felt like the
[1:09:18] rug had been pulled out from under me
[1:09:21] and I had a started having panic attacks
[1:09:24] and couldn't sleep and got really sick.
[1:09:26] And again, for for almost anyone else,
[1:09:30] the exact same scenario would have been,
[1:09:32] okay, we'll deal with it when I get
[1:09:33] there, no problem, and move on. But I
[1:09:37] didn't have the ability to deal with it
[1:09:38] because I never had to deal with
[1:09:39] anything like that. I didn't have the
[1:09:41] musculature to deal with that issue.
[1:09:44] and it felt like the rug was pulled out.
[1:09:47] I didn't know what to do and sunk and
[1:09:52] then it ended up going on for years.
[1:09:54] Even after the problem was solved, I
[1:09:57] ended up leaving the company, starting a
[1:10:00] relationship with a new company.
[1:10:01] Everything was fine. But some it's like
[1:10:05] it was like a a it was like I was a
[1:10:07] balloon that got burst in that moment.
[1:10:11] And I'm still not the same person as I
[1:10:13] was before.
[1:10:14] Now maybe now I'm more rooted in reality
[1:10:18] which probably sounds funny after a lot
[1:10:19] of the things I've been saying before
[1:10:22] that I would say I never questioned
[1:10:24] anything. It was just like everything
[1:10:25] was always rolling in this one direction
[1:10:28] and that was the first time that it was
[1:10:30] questioned and I
[1:10:32] it sunk me and it took years to get out
[1:10:35] of it.
[1:10:37] What I will say though is that because
[1:10:38] of that,
[1:10:41] so many of the artists I work with deal
[1:10:43] with a lot of personal issues. And
[1:10:48] before that, before I was 33, I probably
[1:10:51] didn't understand how they felt as much
[1:10:56] as I do now because now I've had an
[1:10:59] experience
[1:11:00] where I feel like the bottom fell out.
[1:11:04] I would say it has helped my
[1:11:07] understanding of the artists I work
[1:11:08] with.
[1:11:09] >> On your desert island discs, you said it
[1:11:11] wasn't anything that I understood. I
[1:11:13] thought I was dying.
[1:11:14] >> Yeah.
[1:11:15] >> The essence of this is a it was your
[1:11:17] first sort of big professional, dare I
[1:11:19] say, rejection.
[1:11:20] >> Yeah.
[1:11:20] >> Yeah.
[1:11:21] >> Yeah.
[1:11:23] >> I was wrapped up in that in who I was
[1:11:30] and that questioned who I was.
[1:11:33] for the first time
[1:11:36] >> and you went to therapy. Yes. Went to
[1:11:38] therapy and ended up uh using an
[1:11:41] anti-depressant drug, which I tend not
[1:11:45] to be a drug person, but it was bad
[1:11:47] enough for long enough that that was the
[1:11:50] final
[1:11:52] it was the it was the last thing I was
[1:11:53] seeing a different therapist, probably a
[1:11:56] therapist or a healer, at least
[1:11:58] [clears throat] one, 5 days a week. And
[1:12:01] every time I would wake up and go and
[1:12:04] just thinking, maybe today it's going to
[1:12:06] be better. Maybe today it's going to be
[1:12:07] better. And it wasn't better.
[1:12:11] It was really a tough time.
[1:12:14] >> What was what was going on under the
[1:12:16] surface of this? Cuz it cuz on the
[1:12:17] surface one would say Rick got a
[1:12:19] professional rejection and it resulted
[1:12:21] in him saying that he thought he was
[1:12:23] dying. That's what we see on the
[1:12:25] surface.
[1:12:25] >> Well, it was totally un it all was
[1:12:27] happening on the unconscious level.
[1:12:29] Couldn't sleep,
[1:12:30] >> was nauseous all the time. Didn't want
[1:12:32] to get out of bed. It was like it it was
[1:12:35] a I felt it in a physical way and didn't
[1:12:39] want to do anything.
[1:12:41] >> What What is this? What What was that?
[1:12:44] >> Well, I've heard it described as like
[1:12:46] being shot with a poison arrow in a in a
[1:12:49] philosophical
[1:12:51] or a psychological way. I was shot with
[1:12:53] a poison arrow.
[1:12:55] >> Cuz I've I've looked at your um your
[1:12:57] earliest [clears throat] years. I've
[1:12:57] looked at, you know, two wonderful
[1:12:59] people there.
[1:13:00] >> Yes.
[1:13:00] >> Your mom and your dad.
[1:13:01] >> Yes. Um, and sometimes, you know, when I
[1:13:04] interview people that are anomalous in
[1:13:05] some way, I find that their upbringing
[1:13:07] had some sort of trauma and they they
[1:13:09] had a chip on their shoulder. But with
[1:13:10] you, I had very much the opposite that
[1:13:12] you had two parents that really, really
[1:13:14] loved you,
[1:13:14] >> really loved me, could do no wrong. But
[1:13:17] that was part of what it was. It's like
[1:13:19] I had been raised
[1:13:21] believing I could do no wrong.
[1:13:24] And then in the real world making music,
[1:13:29] the success showed that I could do no
[1:13:31] wrong until someone decided, you know
[1:13:35] what? I don't like I don't like what
[1:13:37] you're doing.
[1:13:39] So, I just had no I just didn't have
[1:13:42] context for it, no way to deal with it.
[1:13:45] Sounds like a horrific season of your
[1:13:47] life.
[1:13:48] >> Yeah. Would you if there was um if there
[1:13:51] was a button on the table now that would
[1:13:52] allow you to erase it, would you press
[1:13:54] it? I would not.
[1:13:55] >> Why? Um
[1:13:59] I feel like every event that I've had in
[1:14:02] my life, positive and negative, has
[1:14:05] brought me to where I am now. And
[1:14:09] I wouldn't want to change a thing. I
[1:14:11] wouldn't want to change
[1:14:13] anything.
[1:14:14] >> What did it give you?
[1:14:16] >> It gave me a different perspective.
[1:14:17] Again, I think it it brought me down to
[1:14:19] a more realistic view of the world.
[1:14:21] Still one who believes in magic and that
[1:14:24] the impossible is possible on a daily
[1:14:26] basis. But but before I might have felt
[1:14:29] more like Superman and I don't feel like
[1:14:31] Superman anymore.
[1:14:32] >> What do you feel like?
[1:14:34] >> Uh tired.
[1:14:35] >> Tired. [laughter]
[1:14:38] I am, you know, as as creatives. I want
[1:14:41] to go back to this question I was asking
[1:14:42] you earlier on about the similarities
[1:14:45] you see in these great artists. I heard
[1:14:47] on one end conviction and then I also
[1:14:50] had humility which kind of seemed like
[1:14:52] opposing forces. Is there anything else
[1:14:54] that you see in the similarities between
[1:14:56] the Jay-Z's, the Kanye's, the list of
[1:14:57] people that you worked with is endless?
[1:15:00] >> It usually has to do with a point of
[1:15:02] view. Seeing the world in a way that
[1:15:06] other people don't see. Now, maybe
[1:15:08] something that everybody sees, but no
[1:15:12] one has pointed out before.
[1:15:14] They notice the world in a different
[1:15:17] way. It's what a great comedian does.
[1:15:19] Great comedian says something and you
[1:15:21] laugh at it because you relate to what
[1:15:23] he's saying. It's like, of course, it's
[1:15:24] so funny. It's so ridiculous. That's
[1:15:26] what we do.
[1:15:27] >> It's [clears throat] the same. It's it's
[1:15:29] seeing another layer of what's possible.
[1:15:31] Understanding the world on a deeper
[1:15:33] level than we think we see it. And with
[1:15:37] art, we get to experience all these
[1:15:39] emotions
[1:15:41] that are happening to someone else, but
[1:15:44] because we're humans, they resonate and
[1:15:46] we get to feel. You can hear a a song of
[1:15:49] heartbreak. And you don't even have to
[1:15:51] be heartbroken, but you feel you can
[1:15:54] feel it. You can see a movie that can
[1:15:56] really impact your life. And art has
[1:16:01] this incredible ability to um widen our
[1:16:05] perspective and see things from
[1:16:08] different angles that we couldn't see
[1:16:09] before.
[1:16:10] >> Do great artists work hard?
[1:16:13] >> Very hard. And what does that mean?
[1:16:16] >> From the outside, you'd think
[1:16:19] you check into the recording studio and
[1:16:21] make something and put it out and then
[1:16:23] you go on tour and everybody screams.
[1:16:25] It's a grueling job. Everything about it
[1:16:28] is hard. It's wildly competitive, not
[1:16:31] because you're competing with other
[1:16:32] people, but because a lot of people are
[1:16:33] trying to do it. And and you can be
[1:16:35] tremendously talented, but if you don't
[1:16:38] have the work ethic to go with it,
[1:16:41] it's unlikely that anyone will ever hear
[1:16:43] what you do. So, it's a this combination
[1:16:45] of really diligent work ethic doing
[1:16:49] whatever it takes and
[1:16:53] some
[1:16:56] interesting perspective, an interesting
[1:16:59] point of view, an interesting view on
[1:17:01] the world that someone else looks at and
[1:17:04] thinks, hm, I never saw it that way
[1:17:06] before. Is there a way that you know to
[1:17:09] make my perspective on the world more
[1:17:13] interesting?
[1:17:14] >> It sounds like you spend a lot of time
[1:17:17] looking at business and self-help
[1:17:19] material.
[1:17:20] And I would say maybe
[1:17:23] look outside look at the great things
[1:17:25] outside of that area and see how they
[1:17:30] rhyme or how they resonate or how they
[1:17:32] relate. Often we get great ideas from
[1:17:36] something having nothing to do with what
[1:17:39] we're actually interested in.
[1:17:41] >> We'll see some new thing. I would say
[1:17:44] start going to museums. You know, go to
[1:17:46] museums, look at the art, take the
[1:17:48] walking tour with the headphones, listen
[1:17:50] to the stories,
[1:17:52] read the great literature. When I say
[1:17:55] the great literature, it's not one
[1:17:56] single list, but if you ask around,
[1:17:59] you'll find out. And if three people
[1:18:02] recommend it, definitely read it.
[1:18:04] [laughter]
[1:18:05] See the great movies. Ever. See the
[1:18:07] great movies. The, you know, the
[1:18:09] greatest movies of all time. It's funny
[1:18:11] cuz when we're told how to become a good
[1:18:13] insert occupation, we're told to go
[1:18:15] study that occupation. Being a good
[1:18:17] lawyer, go study law. But often times it
[1:18:19] appears to be the case even with someone
[1:18:20] like Steve Jobs that they have these
[1:18:23] sort of rare things in their skill stack
[1:18:25] like his love of design and typography.
[1:18:27] >> Mhm. No one at university would have
[1:18:29] told him, "Okay, you want to be a great
[1:18:30] computer programmer, go do typography
[1:18:32] design."
[1:18:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's usually
[1:18:36] what makes you good at what you do is
[1:18:39] not that you do it the same as everybody
[1:18:41] else. So if everyone is reading the same
[1:18:43] books, they're going to have the same
[1:18:45] perspective.
[1:18:47] >> I would go outside. I would also
[1:18:48] recommend reading old books as opposed
[1:18:50] to new books. Ancient wisdom is the
[1:18:53] best. Start very old.
[1:18:58] I mean, I've got some books here.
[1:18:59] >> Yes.
[1:19:01] Good choices.
[1:19:03] >> You're a fan of these books?
[1:19:04] >> I love these books.
[1:19:05] >> Why? What did they give you?
[1:19:06] >> I first read The Dao when I was I had
[1:19:10] just moved to California. It's probably
[1:19:13] 30 years ago. And
[1:19:16] I read it and I felt like
[1:19:19] this is different than anything I read
[1:19:21] before.
[1:19:23] It speaks to me on so many levels. And
[1:19:27] then I remember reading it something
[1:19:28] like 6 months later and it was an
[1:19:30] entirely different book. And it's the
[1:19:32] kind of book that every time you read it
[1:19:34] at different points in your life, you'll
[1:19:36] read an entirely different book. And
[1:19:38] this was the inspiration for the way of
[1:19:40] code. And the way of code is essentially
[1:19:44] an adaptation of the Dao for vibe
[1:19:48] coding. Often times books can be
[1:19:51] summarized into a sort of a lesson. Is
[1:19:54] there a lesson a central lesson that you
[1:19:56] got from that book?
[1:19:58] >> Maybe I I would use one sentence like
[1:19:59] that. The soft overcomes the hard. That
[1:20:02] would be a good that would be one things
[1:20:05] that seem counterintuitive
[1:20:08] that non-action is often the best
[1:20:11] action. Now that seems crazy,
[1:20:15] but that really is where it's at. You
[1:20:18] know, there's a story about Napoleon
[1:20:20] that when someone would come to Napoleon
[1:20:23] during all the waring stuff that was
[1:20:25] [laughter] going on, they would come
[1:20:27] with an emergency. You know, you're the
[1:20:30] only one who can answer this.
[1:20:32] Here's the problem. It's an emergency.
[1:20:36] He would always say, "Bring it back to
[1:20:38] me in two weeks."
[1:20:40] And the idea was
[1:20:43] 99% of the problems that need your
[1:20:46] immediate attention in 2 weeks will
[1:20:49] resolve themselves. And if it's still a
[1:20:51] problem in 2 weeks, he'll deal with it.
[1:20:54] >> Might try that with my fiance.
[1:20:56] >> See how it goes. [laughter]
[1:21:00] >> It's an interesting idea though that um
[1:21:01] what was that phrase you said? The soft
[1:21:03] >> the soft overcomes the hard.
[1:21:05] >> The soft overcomes the hard.
[1:21:06] >> Yeah. That's like the idea of water
[1:21:08] dripping on a rock that eventually the
[1:21:12] water will eat through the rock slowly
[1:21:15] dripping and the water's soft. The
[1:21:17] water's totally
[1:21:19] >> pliable, malleable, soft.
[1:21:22] >> And what about this book? Is there an
[1:21:24] essence? Well, I like I like Carl Young,
[1:21:26] and this is probably his most mystical
[1:21:29] book, but in general, his ideas of uh
[1:21:32] archetypes and looking into dreams and
[1:21:36] synchronicity
[1:21:38] are beautiful ideas, and I think that
[1:21:40] they're
[1:21:41] I think that they're really how the
[1:21:44] world works. So, um,
[1:21:47] I find comfort in reading him because
[1:21:50] it's different than what we're
[1:21:52] shown in math and science,
[1:21:56] but maybe closer to how it really is.
[1:21:58] >> I'm going to have to ask you to
[1:21:59] elaborate, especially on this point of
[1:22:01] you saying that synchronicity is
[1:22:02] actually more so how the world works.
[1:22:05] >> Yeah, I think we don't know how anything
[1:22:07] really works.
[1:22:10] I think the world is much bigger and
[1:22:14] more interesting
[1:22:16] than we give it credit for.
[1:22:19] And most of the things that we think we
[1:22:21] understand
[1:22:23] maybe are not so accurate. Like the one
[1:22:26] of the things about science is that
[1:22:28] science is the understanding of how
[1:22:31] things are now until the next scientific
[1:22:34] breakthrough comes and negates
[1:22:37] everything that was before it. It's like
[1:22:39] this ongoing
[1:22:41] interest and I think maybe there's an
[1:22:44] inner knowingness like we don't know why
[1:22:46] you meet somebody and you really want to
[1:22:49] spend time with them. I don't think that
[1:22:51] science can explain that and you meet
[1:22:53] someone else and you feel like you know
[1:22:54] what I don't want to be around this
[1:22:57] person. There's something going on
[1:23:00] energetically here that's not for me.
[1:23:03] I think that that's the kind of wisdom
[1:23:06] that probably has more impact on our
[1:23:08] lives than anything that you can uh any
[1:23:12] data can show us.
[1:23:15] >> I was thinking about how believing what
[1:23:18] you've just said might change my life.
[1:23:20] >> Yes, it would.
[1:23:22] >> In what ways do you think it might
[1:23:24] change my life? It's like you would take
[1:23:26] the shackles off of feeling like it has
[1:23:29] to be this narrow way or thinking well
[1:23:33] if these numbers look like this then it
[1:23:35] means this and this is what's going to
[1:23:37] happen when [clears throat] in reality
[1:23:38] you know many times you've looked at the
[1:23:40] numbers and then acted accordingly and
[1:23:43] then 3 years later realized hm didn't
[1:23:45] really work out the way I thought
[1:23:47] that's the real world like that's one
[1:23:51] way of looking at things you know the
[1:23:52] money ball approach is one way. And then
[1:23:55] the other way is when you met your wife
[1:23:58] and you felt like I want to be with her.
[1:24:01] That's different. There weren't any
[1:24:02] metrics you could use to calculate
[1:24:04] whether that was a good idea or not.
[1:24:06] >> It's like an invitation to trust
[1:24:08] ourselves more as well because you're
[1:24:09] talking about energetic feeling and
[1:24:12] >> and doing things that would make
[1:24:15] trusting yourself make more sense.
[1:24:18] >> That's the other part of it. It's like
[1:24:19] if you spend so much time not trusting
[1:24:22] yourself,
[1:24:24] then that antenna to be able to tell
[1:24:27] what's going on might be a little rusty.
[1:24:31] >> So, [clears throat] anything you can do
[1:24:33] to start
[1:24:36] using the antenna as often as possible
[1:24:38] and letting it dictate you. There was a
[1:24:41] time when I was surprised by the
[1:24:43] miracles that I would see and now I'm
[1:24:45] not surprised. It's still surprising,
[1:24:47] but it happens enough where it's like,
[1:24:50] "Yeah, that's what happens. Look at
[1:24:53] that. Can't predict it. Can't bet on it.
[1:24:57] But when it happens, like it seemed like
[1:25:00] that's what was going to happen.
[1:25:02] Happened. Look at that.
[1:25:08] And do you think there is a higher force
[1:25:09] taking actions on our lives or
[1:25:12] >> I think there's a higher intellig
[1:25:14] creative intelligence that
[1:25:18] I'll say lives the world like the thing
[1:25:21] that
[1:25:23] allows plants to grow. There's some
[1:25:26] generative force.
[1:25:28] I don't know that it's like aiming
[1:25:30] particularly at you or me, but there's
[1:25:33] some energy that like life wants to live
[1:25:39] and you can ride. Same like catching a
[1:25:41] wave, you know? You can
[1:25:44] you can catch the wave. The wave is
[1:25:47] there. There's a lot of waves beyond the
[1:25:50] ones in the ocean
[1:25:52] >> and you can ride those waves. You can't
[1:25:54] always see them, but you might be able
[1:25:56] to feel them. you might be able to
[1:25:59] over time you start to recognize them
[1:26:02] and for some reason it seems like the
[1:26:04] universe wants us to know about this.
[1:26:06] It's what I talked about paying
[1:26:07] attention and about the um the way of
[1:26:10] code like it was a ridiculous thing. It
[1:26:13] was indefensible.
[1:26:15] But I listened to this
[1:26:18] feeling
[1:26:20] was coming from a lot of sources.
[1:26:22] Didn't make sense to me,
[1:26:25] but it felt like, hm, I'm being asked to
[1:26:28] do something here. What could it be? Let
[1:26:30] me try to participate.
[1:26:32] >> What I hear from a lot of what you're
[1:26:34] saying is um it's making me think about
[1:26:35] how like rationality as an idea, being
[1:26:38] rational,
[1:26:38] >> yeah,
[1:26:39] >> can be a bit of a curse. I would
[1:26:40] consider myself to be quite a rational
[1:26:42] person. I would say rationality is
[1:26:44] overrated. The rational world is very
[1:26:47] small. There's much more there are much
[1:26:50] more interesting things going on than
[1:26:52] the rational world.
[1:26:54] Yes, that's what exactly what my fiance
[1:26:56] would say to me. What she has been
[1:26:59] saying to me. I [snorts] think I think
[1:27:00] we we go together. Funny enough, you're
[1:27:02] talking about plus and minuses because
[1:27:03] she is someone that helps me break
[1:27:05] outside of rationality.
[1:27:06] >> Yes. And when when she when she speaks
[1:27:08] to me about these ideas she has about
[1:27:10] these you know bigger ideas she has I
[1:27:12] always listen very intently although at
[1:27:14] some level I am I guess rebuttling them
[1:27:17] >> but do you see how they impact her life?
[1:27:19] Do you see what they do to her?
[1:27:21] >> Yeah.
[1:27:22] >> Does it feel like it raises her
[1:27:23] vibration like
[1:27:24] >> 100%.
[1:27:25] >> Yeah. It's like there there's
[1:27:27] >> that counts you know the way she feels
[1:27:31] that counts
[1:27:34] her vibe. Yeah. [laughter]
[1:27:37] >> One of the um
[1:27:38] >> enough for you to want to be around her
[1:27:39] all the time.
[1:27:40] >> I feel like I'm Yeah. leeching off that
[1:27:42] vibe to some degree sometimes.
[1:27:44] [laughter]
[1:27:45] >> What you talked about higher
[1:27:46] intelligence and you talked about uh a
[1:27:47] generative force which is the perfect
[1:27:49] segue into the big subject of the moment
[1:27:52] which is artificial intelligence. Kind
[1:27:54] of links to what you're saying about
[1:27:55] vibe coding as well. for the first time
[1:27:56] ever. I was saying yesterday I I got a
[1:27:58] message from my f one of my friends who
[1:28:00] isn't involved in technology saying like
[1:28:03] I'm concerned. I don't know what this
[1:28:05] technology is. Is it going to take our
[1:28:07] jobs? I'm concerned. And that for me was
[1:28:09] the bat signal that that that this is
[1:28:11] really getting down to everyday people.
[1:28:13] This week there was a anthropic
[1:28:15] researcher um who also worked at a uh
[1:28:18] chat GBT open AI say he thinks it might
[1:28:21] be uh the the end of the human race or
[1:28:23] at least there's a more than 10% chance
[1:28:25] of that.
[1:28:27] AI is a broad subject. Sure. You've got
[1:28:30] lots of thoughts on it.
[1:28:31] >> Yeah, I'd think it's a it's a wildly
[1:28:33] powerful tool
[1:28:35] and I'm curious to see what it can do.
[1:28:38] Like any powerful tool, it could be
[1:28:40] really dangerous. It could be used for
[1:28:42] bad or it could be used for good.
[1:28:45] Fire burned down my house. I wouldn't
[1:28:48] say we should ban fire. Fire cooks our
[1:28:51] food. Does some good stuff. Heats our
[1:28:53] heats our houses. It's one of these
[1:28:55] things. It's like the internet changed
[1:28:58] the world. It does some really good
[1:28:59] things. Probably does some really bad
[1:29:02] things.
[1:29:03] It's very powerful. The printing press
[1:29:06] when it came along, the church tried to
[1:29:09] ban the printing press. They didn't want
[1:29:10] that. They didn't want books to be able
[1:29:13] to they didn't want information to be
[1:29:15] able to be for everybody. Good came from
[1:29:17] that and probably some bad.
[1:29:19] >> Can it be creative?
[1:29:21] >> I don't know. I'm curious. I I don't
[1:29:23] know. I feel like everything we've
[1:29:26] talked about today about what creativity
[1:29:28] is has to do with point of view.
[1:29:30] >> And AI doesn't have a point of view.
[1:29:34] AI is uh
[1:29:37] the collected ideas that already exist.
[1:29:41] It doesn't have it doesn't see it from a
[1:29:44] particular angle. And if you ask it the
[1:29:46] same question
[1:29:49] several times or several days in a row,
[1:29:51] it may give you very different answer
[1:29:52] day after day. So it's not like it has
[1:29:55] this is how it sees the world.
[1:29:58] >> If I asked an AI to make 10 million
[1:30:01] different tracks,
[1:30:02] >> Yeah. Would it theoretically it would at
[1:30:04] some point make a hit even though it
[1:30:06] doesn't have a a point of view per se?
[1:30:08] >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's hard
[1:30:11] for me to say what a hit even is,
[1:30:13] >> but I would say
[1:30:14] >> it could make 10,000 tracks and you
[1:30:16] might like one or two of them or you may
[1:30:18] like 5% of them. You might. And that's
[1:30:21] interesting. And I could see like there
[1:30:23] was a time when we would sample records
[1:30:26] when we were doing hip-hop records. It
[1:30:28] was called crate digging where you'd
[1:30:31] go to record stores, find old records,
[1:30:32] listen to them all the way through and
[1:30:34] find one little part. It's like, ah,
[1:30:35] this little breakbe beat, let's use that
[1:30:37] and make a new song out of it and and
[1:30:39] you change the context, make something
[1:30:41] new. So, if AI was playing music
[1:30:43] constantly in the background and then
[1:30:45] all of a sudden I heard a little clip,
[1:30:47] oh, that's a good sample. We can make
[1:30:48] that into something
[1:30:50] >> that would be a use. I I I I think the
[1:30:53] idea of it doing the end to end of
[1:30:56] replacing the artist, I don't think it I
[1:31:00] I I can't imagine it doing that. I'd be
[1:31:02] curious to see if it could, but I think
[1:31:04] what we want from an artist has to do
[1:31:06] with point of view. And I see AI maybe
[1:31:08] is a tool that could help the artist and
[1:31:11] maybe even help the person who doesn't
[1:31:13] know they're an artist be an artist. So,
[1:31:18] I can't draw. I can't play any
[1:31:20] instruments. I don't have any talent. I
[1:31:23] have no way to express my creativity.
[1:31:25] But I could talk to the AI and maybe I
[1:31:28] could prompt the AI into making
[1:31:30] something beautiful through iteration
[1:31:33] and prompting. So maybe more people will
[1:31:36] get to be creative using AI. And I think
[1:31:38] that's a beautiful thing. This is such a
[1:31:40] recurring debate. You'll hear it
[1:31:42] probably on every panel everywhere at
[1:31:43] the moment, which is can AI be creative?
[1:31:45] And I've thought a lot about like I've
[1:31:47] sort of tried to interrogate the
[1:31:49] question itself because you first sort
[1:31:51] of need to define what creativity is and
[1:31:53] then I think what people are saying is
[1:31:55] when they think of creativity they
[1:31:56] actually think of good creativity that
[1:31:59] sold well or that was number one. So
[1:32:02] often times I remember one of my friends
[1:32:03] was saying to me the other day um I
[1:32:05] don't think AI could ever make and then
[1:32:07] he like named a great song.
[1:32:09] >> AI could never make that. And even when
[1:32:11] I look at that great song, what's making
[1:32:12] him think it was great creativity in in
[1:32:15] hindsight was actually as you use the
[1:32:18] word end to end an end to end process of
[1:32:21] having the meeting with MTV, building up
[1:32:23] distribution and reputation. Maybe
[1:32:25] people being following that artist's
[1:32:27] life and therefore that being part of
[1:32:29] the point of view. People have followed
[1:32:30] Olivia Dean. So when she makes music,
[1:32:32] something else comes with that. A story
[1:32:34] comes with that. Olivia Dean signed to a
[1:32:36] record label. So maybe there's some
[1:32:37] support there that's done. And in
[1:32:38] hindsight we go amazing creativity. But
[1:32:42] what we're actually saying is there was
[1:32:43] this long process which resulted in this
[1:32:46] me experiencing this thing and so I
[1:32:50] consider it creative. Now AI might like
[1:32:52] I was trying to think like okay AI could
[1:32:53] help with be the tool that you describe.
[1:32:56] >> But isn't the whole process part of what
[1:32:57] we look back on and say that was great
[1:32:59] creativity.
[1:33:01] I would say the whole process. I I also
[1:33:03] think it's even beyond the process. Like
[1:33:06] the things that we make
[1:33:09] are the reminders that we're creative.
[1:33:13] They're just the output. The real
[1:33:15] creativity is
[1:33:18] the idea that allows this thing to be
[1:33:20] made. If you look at Alfred Hitchcock,
[1:33:25] his movies, he works out his whole movie
[1:33:28] in advance and he storyboards the whole
[1:33:30] movie. And if you look at the
[1:33:31] storyboard, he doesn't even really need
[1:33:34] to make the movie. The whole thing is
[1:33:36] there just in drawings. Exactly. Frame
[1:33:40] by frame, the whole movie is there. Wes
[1:33:43] Anderson makes his movie frame by frame
[1:33:45] in advance before there are actors. So
[1:33:48] he could watch the whole movie.
[1:33:51] um like a a mock a mockup of the movie
[1:33:56] and then with the actors is where he
[1:33:59] executes the idea. And I think AI is a
[1:34:03] could be a great tool to like assist in
[1:34:05] this mocking up,
[1:34:08] >> but it's the prompt. The prompt is where
[1:34:11] the creativity is.
[1:34:14] The prompt is what Wes is using and what
[1:34:18] Alfred Hitchcock is using to tell the
[1:34:21] the artist what to draw in each frame.
[1:34:25] The creativity is there. It's not in the
[1:34:27] drawing. It's not in the finished movie.
[1:34:31] It's in the prompt. Mhm.
[1:34:34] >> So the I feel like
[1:34:38] now using prompts anyone can prompt and
[1:34:41] you can get better at prompting
[1:34:44] through experimentation.
[1:34:47] So someone who thinks of themselves as
[1:34:49] not not creative, the idea of learning
[1:34:52] how to prompt, it's pretty easy.
[1:34:56] It's really like the barrier of entry is
[1:34:59] very low [laughter] and I think that's a
[1:35:02] good thing.
[1:35:04] In a world where the barrier of entry is
[1:35:06] so low to creating,
[1:35:10] what what becomes the distinction? What
[1:35:12] makes a great artist from a a not so
[1:35:15] great great artist?
[1:35:16] >> Well, the same thing now. It's the same
[1:35:18] thing as now. Like the the reason you
[1:35:20] love the artist you love is they make
[1:35:22] something that changes your life, moves
[1:35:24] you. You want to listen to it a million
[1:35:26] times. You want to see the movie over
[1:35:27] and over again. You want to read you
[1:35:29] want to read their books.
[1:35:31] I don't know if it
[1:35:34] if the AI itself could write the book
[1:35:38] that you want to read over and over
[1:35:40] again. I don't know if that's a problem.
[1:35:42] If that happens, I don't see any
[1:35:45] indication that that's going to happen.
[1:35:49] >> But more good art doesn't seem like a
[1:35:51] bad thing.
[1:35:53] me and uh my uh business partner out
[1:35:56] there, Georgia Gibson. We were on
[1:35:59] Spotify and we um listened to this song.
[1:36:01] We really liked it. And about 2 months
[1:36:04] later, I figured out it was AI. The only
[1:36:06] reason I figured out it was AI was
[1:36:07] because I went to get more from the
[1:36:08] artist. As I clicked through, I realized
[1:36:11] it was AI. And then the other thing that
[1:36:13] happened around the time is there was
[1:36:15] these two songs from this uh Spotify
[1:36:17] artist, I guess, and one of them
[1:36:19] disappeared. And so I that's when I went
[1:36:21] on Google and was looking like what what
[1:36:23] happened to that song and it turns out
[1:36:25] it was an AI artist. Something
[1:36:26] interesting happened when I realized I
[1:36:28] was listening to an AI song.
[1:36:29] >> What happened?
[1:36:30] >> I didn't like it as much anymore.
[1:36:31] >> Interesting.
[1:36:33] And so when I think about again
[1:36:35] creativity, I wonder if there is a sort
[1:36:37] of an irreplaceably human element
[1:36:39] because it resonated with me because
[1:36:41] there was this story that it came from
[1:36:43] this woman who was singing and she was
[1:36:45] talking about this subject and it meant
[1:36:47] something to her and then when I found
[1:36:48] out it was none of that it the song lost
[1:36:52] something. If you think about Andy
[1:36:54] Warhol's art,
[1:36:57] Andy Warhol started as a commercial um
[1:37:02] illustrator. He would draw shoes for
[1:37:04] advertising, let's say. And then he came
[1:37:07] up with what essentially now what we
[1:37:10] call pop art. And pop art was
[1:37:14] a brillow box or a soup a Campbell soup
[1:37:17] can. And maybe the first Campbell soup
[1:37:18] cans, he drew them and painted them.
[1:37:21] Those were the first ones. But then over
[1:37:23] time he did a series of images that were
[1:37:27] screen printed. So like Elvis, Marilyn
[1:37:29] Monroe, really famous the most famous
[1:37:32] Andy Warhol images. He never painted
[1:37:35] anything. He never touched anything.
[1:37:39] He said, "We're going to use this shot
[1:37:41] of of Marilyn and we're going to treat
[1:37:42] it in this way." and he prompted the the
[1:37:46] people in the studio to screen print
[1:37:49] these things.
[1:37:51] And they're not less Andy Warhol.
[1:37:57] The art's always in the idiation. That's
[1:38:01] where the art is. It's not who put the
[1:38:05] paint on the canvas.
[1:38:09] There was a time even even going back to
[1:38:11] the um the Renaissance so many of the
[1:38:14] painters had studios and you'd see
[1:38:16] Rembrandt and Rembrandt might have
[1:38:18] painted
[1:38:21] 70% he might have painted 30% of that
[1:38:23] painting but it was his vision for the
[1:38:26] painting and he would have the guys in
[1:38:28] the studio you guys do this not sure if
[1:38:30] Rembrandt's the best example of this but
[1:38:32] could be that it was it's a normal thing
[1:38:34] that artists who had studios would have
[1:38:38] other people, other painters, disciples
[1:38:41] who would do a lot of the work.
[1:38:44] Happens now in the studio. So many
[1:38:47] records, you'll hear a it can be a band,
[1:38:50] but then the band isn't playing on the
[1:38:52] record. Studio musicians are playing on
[1:38:54] the record.
[1:38:56] It's normal. It's just part of the
[1:38:57] process, but doesn't make it less good.
[1:39:00] It's just a different thing. It's fine.
[1:39:04] It's the idiation is where it comes
[1:39:06] from. And I don't know that the AI's
[1:39:09] idiation
[1:39:11] is interesting to anyone. We'll see.
[1:39:15] >> I always think with like the F1, um, if
[1:39:18] they removed Lewis Hamilton from the
[1:39:19] car, I wouldn't watch the F1 anymore,
[1:39:21] even if the cars drove faster and beat
[1:39:24] their times because there's something in
[1:39:26] me watching a human being experience
[1:39:28] those emotions of competition and anger.
[1:39:30] And you know, you can kind of see by the
[1:39:31] way they're driving how they're feeling.
[1:39:33] And you can relate to that. I felt like
[1:39:34] that in work once.
[1:39:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. It does seem less
[1:39:37] interesting if it was just a car,
[1:39:39] automated car doing it.
[1:39:41] >> So what what has been removed
[1:39:44] is kind of I guess what I experienced
[1:39:45] with that Spotify song I was talking
[1:39:46] about is like res human relatability and
[1:39:49] resonance and me too and connection.
[1:39:53] >> But it's interesting that you liked it
[1:39:54] before you knew.
[1:39:56] >> And that's interest, you know, that's
[1:39:57] interesting to me. And I wonder,
[1:40:00] would I
[1:40:02] be against something because of the way
[1:40:05] it was made? This doesn't make sense to
[1:40:08] me. You either like it or you don't.
[1:40:18] >> It's We're living in interesting times.
[1:40:20] >> Absolutely.
[1:40:22] >> You used the word miracles earlier on,
[1:40:24] which I found to be an interesting word.
[1:40:25] >> Yeah. And I wondered if you had
[1:40:27] experienced miracles through the
[1:40:28] creative process of working with great
[1:40:30] artists
[1:40:30] >> all the time.
[1:40:31] >> What are those? Is there a miracle you
[1:40:33] could share?
[1:40:35] >> Uh there's a a brother song called um
[1:40:40] No Hard Feelings and they were playing
[1:40:43] it in the studio and it was okay. It was
[1:40:45] fine. Wasn't great. They played it a few
[1:40:48] times and then finally they played it
[1:40:50] one time and again I don't even remember
[1:40:52] if we even said do anything different.
[1:40:54] It might have been just try it again.
[1:40:56] You know, that could have been that
[1:40:57] nothing changed.
[1:40:59] And for some reason,
[1:41:03] while they were playing it, it was like
[1:41:05] time stopped
[1:41:07] and this incredible thing happened. I
[1:41:09] don't know why. No one involved knew why
[1:41:12] or how.
[1:41:15] But after I I remember about a minute
[1:41:18] into the song, I remember thinking
[1:41:21] it there's this feeling it's scary
[1:41:23] because it's really good. We don't know
[1:41:26] how or why.
[1:41:28] I hope they can get to the end of the
[1:41:30] song because if they don't get to the
[1:41:31] end of the song, we don't have it and we
[1:41:34] maybe we can never get back to this.
[1:41:36] That's what it's like. It's like so as
[1:41:38] soon as you realize in the process if
[1:41:41] you happen to realize okay something
[1:41:44] shifted something magic is happening now
[1:41:47] sometimes you don't know it right away
[1:41:49] sometimes you know it after I've made an
[1:41:51] album with Neil Young where we recorded
[1:41:54] for a week
[1:41:56] it was not good
[1:41:58] the band it sounded like the band not
[1:42:01] only couldn't play the songs but would
[1:42:03] never be able to play the songs that was
[1:42:05] a feeling in the first week.
[1:42:08] And at the end of the first week, Neil
[1:42:10] said to me after he's like, "Don't
[1:42:11] worry, next week's going to be better.
[1:42:13] We're going to they're going to be able
[1:42:14] to do it." It's like, "Okay, okay."
[1:42:16] Like, I'm
[1:42:18] nothing showed me that, but let's go. I
[1:42:21] I'll listen. And then the next week,
[1:42:24] Neil said to Ralph, the drummer, he's
[1:42:26] like, "Uh, okay, let's play whatever the
[1:42:28] third song again." And Ralph's like,
[1:42:30] "Well, we already did that last week."
[1:42:32] And he was like, "Oh, let's maybe we
[1:42:33] could beat it." And R's like, "No, I
[1:42:35] really think we got it."
[1:42:37] And now last week we thought not only
[1:42:40] did we not get it, but that we may never
[1:42:42] get it. And then we try playing it
[1:42:44] again. It is no better. And then Ralph
[1:42:47] says, "Put back. Put on the one from
[1:42:49] last week." And he puts on the one from
[1:42:51] last week. And he says, "Well, turn down
[1:42:54] the um turn down the bass a little bit.
[1:42:58] Maybe turn the piano up." And we listen
[1:43:01] to it again. And
[1:43:04] it seemed like it still had problems,
[1:43:09] but the magic was there
[1:43:13] kind of a it had a lot of mistakes, but
[1:43:17] forgetting the mistakes, the feeling,
[1:43:20] the feeling was there. And then our job
[1:43:23] was just like
[1:43:26] doing little bits of repairs here and
[1:43:30] there or a little ducking a sound or
[1:43:33] featuring a sound or adding another
[1:43:35] vocal or doing little things and turned
[1:43:40] almost the whole album turned out to be
[1:43:41] recorded that first week when it seemed
[1:43:43] like it would never happen.
[1:43:46] So that would that felt like a miracle.
[1:43:48] The question that's front of mind when
[1:43:49] you talk about these moments where great
[1:43:51] art was created, everybody wants to know
[1:43:52] how to make it repeatable. How do we
[1:43:54] repeat that process?
[1:43:55] >> Yeah. It's not none of this is
[1:43:57] repeatable. Ah,
[1:43:59] >> no. The thing that's repeatable is you
[1:44:01] show up and you keep going till it's
[1:44:03] great. Whatever it takes. That's the
[1:44:04] thing. It's like and sometimes you
[1:44:07] listen back like you'll make a demo or
[1:44:10] you'll do a little sketch and you think
[1:44:11] this is this is a great idea. This is
[1:44:14] beautiful. Now I'm going to make a big
[1:44:15] painting. and you work on the painting
[1:44:17] for months and months and months, it
[1:44:18] never really comes together.
[1:44:20] >> But then you look back at that original
[1:44:22] drawing that you made in five minutes
[1:44:23] like, you know, that's actually it
[1:44:27] happened on the first album I made with
[1:44:29] Johnny Cash. We recorded all these songs
[1:44:31] in my living room of him singing and
[1:44:34] playing guitar.
[1:44:36] We weren't recording for an album. We
[1:44:38] were recording.
[1:44:40] It was the way that we got to know each
[1:44:42] other. I asked him to play me all of his
[1:44:44] favorite songs, songs he like remembered
[1:44:45] from growing up. Uh songs that mean a
[1:44:48] lot to him. Or I might say, "Can you try
[1:44:50] playing this song? Let's just see what
[1:44:52] it sounds like." More like trying to
[1:44:55] understand what sounded good when he
[1:44:57] sang it. We were doing this exploration.
[1:44:59] And we did that with the idea of we're
[1:45:01] going to test a hundred songs this way
[1:45:04] and then maybe we'll find 10. And the 10
[1:45:06] that we like best, we'll go into the
[1:45:07] studio with a band and we'll record
[1:45:08] them. And we did that and recorded with
[1:45:10] a great band and it was interesting but
[1:45:13] it wasn't better. And then we did it
[1:45:15] again with a different band. Same thing
[1:45:17] wasn't better. It's like I guess those
[1:45:20] recordings from the living room which we
[1:45:23] had no thoughts of ever anybody ever
[1:45:26] hearing
[1:45:28] they have something that the real
[1:45:30] recordings don't have.
[1:45:33] >> And we ended up putting out those.
[1:45:36] So, but again that we didn't go into the
[1:45:38] process to do that. We discovered it
[1:45:42] through the process. And sometimes it's
[1:45:45] the opposite way where you make you have
[1:45:46] a clear vision of what it's going to be
[1:45:48] and you do it all the way and it it
[1:45:52] tells you through that process. It wants
[1:45:55] to be this entire other thing.
[1:45:57] >> It wants to be.
[1:45:58] >> It wants to be.
[1:45:59] >> You're saying that as if it's got a mind
[1:46:00] of its own.
[1:46:01] >> It does. Hm.
[1:46:04] Well, it I'm only saying it does because
[1:46:06] it shows you
[1:46:09] no what you think is wrong. Try it like
[1:46:13] this.
[1:46:15] You're sort of personifying. You're sort
[1:46:16] of
[1:46:17] >> Yeah, I'm personifying. It doesn't say
[1:46:19] it in words, but it's clear. The
[1:46:22] indicators are clear. What we get back
[1:46:24] is, hm, we thought it was supposed to be
[1:46:26] this fast. When we listen to it, it's
[1:46:28] clearly much too fast. We have to play
[1:46:32] it slower. We thought it was going to be
[1:46:34] a loud electric song. Turns out it wants
[1:46:36] to be a really quiet song. We didn't
[1:46:38] know that.
[1:46:40] Has there been a time where you thought
[1:46:42] something was just the most amazing
[1:46:45] thing ever and then when it went out
[1:46:46] into the world, the world didn't
[1:46:49] subjectively think it was amazing.
[1:46:51] >> For sure. It probably happens often. And
[1:46:54] how do you rationalize that on the basis
[1:46:56] of
[1:46:57] >> as soon as I decide that I like it
[1:46:59] enough to share with the world, I'm
[1:47:02] done. I move on to the next thing. I
[1:47:04] can't the what anyone else thinks
[1:47:06] doesn't really impact it. It's fun when
[1:47:08] people like it. I love it when people
[1:47:10] like it. But that's total bonus. The
[1:47:15] real work is I like this enough to put
[1:47:18] it out into the world. My name's on the
[1:47:20] back of the record. The artist's name's
[1:47:22] on the front. They like it enough to put
[1:47:24] it out. I like it enough to put it out.
[1:47:27] Here you go. What's next?
[1:47:30] >> And what comes of that you're treating
[1:47:32] like none of your business.
[1:47:33] >> Correct.
[1:47:36] [snorts]
[1:47:36] Cuz anything that I think of past that
[1:47:40] is going to totally undermine the
[1:47:42] creative process. The creative process
[1:47:45] is a pure
[1:47:48] uh delicate process
[1:47:51] to be protected.
[1:47:55] And if you're thinking about what
[1:47:56] happens next totally undermines it, the
[1:48:00] house of cards crumbles.
[1:48:04] When we're working in the studio and
[1:48:05] something starts sounding good and
[1:48:07] someone, one of the artists might say,
[1:48:08] "This sounds like it could be a single."
[1:48:10] It's like, "We're not talking about
[1:48:12] that. That has nothing to do with what
[1:48:14] we're doing.
[1:48:16] >> What are you doing?
[1:48:17] >> Making the best thing we can make.
[1:48:20] We We're making the best thing we can
[1:48:22] make. And I always used this I always
[1:48:24] thought of it as greatness. Like we're
[1:48:26] working towards greatness, timeless
[1:48:27] greatness. Didn't know what it meant.
[1:48:30] And more recently, I came to realize
[1:48:32] we're making it as an offering to God.
[1:48:35] And if we're making it as an offering to
[1:48:37] God, things like the numbers,
[1:48:41] that's much that's insignificant.
[1:48:45] This is we're doing our best as an
[1:48:48] offering.
[1:48:50] There's nothing deeper than that.
[1:48:53] There's no metric that competes with
[1:48:54] that.
[1:48:58] I didn't always know that, but it was
[1:49:00] always the same.
[1:49:02] Was
[1:49:05] there a point when you realized that?
[1:49:06] >> Yeah, a few years ago.
[1:49:09] And it felt good when I realized it. It
[1:49:10] was like, ah,
[1:49:12] of course,
[1:49:14] you know, 35 years in like, oh,
[1:49:17] >> do you remember the moment?
[1:49:20] >> I have a vague memory. I don't remember
[1:49:22] the specifics. I remember I was sitting
[1:49:23] on a lifeguard chair in Hawaii
[1:49:26] [clears throat] and um and I remember
[1:49:28] thinking about it there, but I don't
[1:49:29] know if that's the moment where it
[1:49:30] struck me, but I remember it was like it
[1:49:34] was a total epiphany even though it was
[1:49:37] only, you know,
[1:49:39] for me. It didn't apply to anything
[1:49:42] else. It was just like I realized
[1:49:46] what I've been doing all this time
[1:49:47] without understanding it. It just became
[1:49:49] clear. It's like ah that's what it is.
[1:49:54] Yeah, it was a great it was a great
[1:49:55] feeling of like now it all makes more
[1:49:58] sense.
[1:50:01] >> Do you mean in the literal sense? You
[1:50:03] think that you are making offerings for
[1:50:05] a higher power? Very literally.
[1:50:08] >> I'm saying God
[1:50:13] >> and God defined as the higher power.
[1:50:16] >> We can call him the father.
[1:50:18] >> Okay. And you're liter So So the art you
[1:50:20] make, the music you you make, he is
[1:50:22] actually the customer in some respects.
[1:50:25] >> No, because it's a gift. So he's not
[1:50:28] it's not a customer. He's the
[1:50:29] beneficiary, but he's not the customer.
[1:50:32] And it's like a I want to I want to
[1:50:37] show you my best
[1:50:40] out of love and thanks, gratitude.
[1:50:44] Here's the best I can do.
[1:50:48] That's what it is.
[1:50:51] This is my best.
[1:50:54] If anybody else likes it, great. But if
[1:50:56] not, we're good.
[1:51:01] Does he ever give feedback?
[1:51:04] I want to say that when other people
[1:51:05] like it, I might I might take that as a
[1:51:09] good sign, but I don't know. I I don't
[1:51:11] really think about it, but I feel like
[1:51:12] when a lot of people like it, it's like
[1:51:16] the energy of it is positive all the way
[1:51:19] around.
[1:51:22] Interesting to think about, fun to think
[1:51:24] about.
[1:51:25] >> Do you think that's why we're here? Cuz
[1:51:27] I'm now trying to figure out why there
[1:51:29] would be such relationship with God
[1:51:30] where we were offering gifts and how
[1:51:32] that links to our maybe higher purpose.
[1:51:35] >> Well, I think we're here to show who we
[1:51:37] are. We're here to self-express.
[1:51:40] I am here. I'm here to tell you this is
[1:51:43] me. This is how I see the world. And to
[1:51:46] say to you, show me who you are. Tell me
[1:51:48] how you see the world. And the way we
[1:51:50] make sense of it is we discuss that. And
[1:51:53] we may, in some areas, we may line up.
[1:51:55] In some cases, we may differ. But that's
[1:51:57] how we figure it out. And everything we
[1:52:00] do is this is how I see the world. And
[1:52:04] then other people say, "I never saw it
[1:52:08] that way, but yes,
[1:52:11] I'm on board with that." And other
[1:52:12] people are like, "No, that's not for
[1:52:14] me." And that's fine.
[1:52:17] But we are here. Our purpose is to
[1:52:19] self-express
[1:52:22] through several different means through
[1:52:24] any different [clears throat] way any
[1:52:26] self-expression comes in a lot of in a
[1:52:28] lot of forms.
[1:52:31] But the best version, it's never because
[1:52:34] they did it this way. That's not
[1:52:36] self-expression.
[1:52:38] Copying the They were successful and I'm
[1:52:40] copying them. That's not
[1:52:42] self-expression.
[1:52:44] That's a different game.
[1:52:47] That's not what we're here for. You can
[1:52:48] do it. It's fine. It's fine. But I don't
[1:52:52] think that's why we're here.
[1:52:54] >> I sat with a someone who is an expert on
[1:52:56] consciousness. He's a physicist who
[1:52:57] just, you know, is very spiritual. One
[1:53:00] of the things he said to me which has
[1:53:01] really stayed with me is he was positing
[1:53:02] that potentially consciousness itself is
[1:53:06] God has divided consciousness into lots
[1:53:08] of little pieces into my French bulldog
[1:53:10] Pablo into Rick into someone in China
[1:53:14] and he set us all off to go and explore
[1:53:16] and understand the world and by doing so
[1:53:19] consciousness is seeking to understand
[1:53:21] itself. very strange idea. And then I
[1:53:23] went to I think Malta and I was driving
[1:53:25] down the road in Malta and I looked and
[1:53:26] I saw these tourists and with that idea
[1:53:29] in mind that consciousness has divided
[1:53:30] itself to go and understand itself into
[1:53:32] these pieces into a fish so we can go
[1:53:34] check the bottom of the ocean. I saw
[1:53:35] these tourists and they were all just
[1:53:37] looking up at this mountain.
[1:53:38] >> Mhm.
[1:53:39] >> And like with in the abstract that's it
[1:53:41] looks like a very strange thing that
[1:53:42] we're like fascinated by the novel. And
[1:53:45] so I started to think maybe that is
[1:53:46] true. Maybe this thing called
[1:53:47] consciousness is this exploration to
[1:53:49] understand
[1:53:51] itself and it's turned some
[1:53:53] consciousness has gone into Rick and
[1:53:54] Rick is experimenting and creating to
[1:53:56] understand and to and kind of what you
[1:53:58] were saying there reminded me of it cuz
[1:54:00] sounded like you were talking about
[1:54:01] consciousness itself and the
[1:54:03] self-exression of consciousness. So
[1:54:05] >> it could be
[1:54:07] it's a beautiful idea.
[1:54:09] >> Strange idea, isn't it? Not
[1:54:11] >> not strange to me.
[1:54:12] >> Not strange [laughter] to you. Okay.
[1:54:14] >> Not at all. Nothing. Nothing is
[1:54:16] >> Nothing is off the table.
[1:54:17] >> Nothing's off the table.
[1:54:19] >> One of um one of the great artists
[1:54:20] you've uh you've worked with, we talked
[1:54:22] about is um is Jay-Z.
[1:54:24] >> Yes.
[1:54:25] >> And you have this wonderful eight-part
[1:54:27] documentary.
[1:54:28] >> Yes.
[1:54:28] >> Coming out with Jay-Z, which I was
[1:54:30] fascinated enough to uh what I found
[1:54:33] fascinating to watch. It's out on the
[1:54:36] 18th of September. And one of the clips
[1:54:38] that I watched from it just had us run
[1:54:41] down
[1:54:43] is the story of um this brand.
[1:54:45] >> Ah yes, Ace of Spades. I found it really
[1:54:48] fascinating the story that Jay-Z told
[1:54:50] about this brand Ace of Spades um for
[1:54:53] many reasons, but it also it rhymes with
[1:54:56] some of the things you're saying about
[1:54:58] integrity and how you feel and his
[1:55:02] decision to
[1:55:04] um abandon another brand and at a cost
[1:55:08] at a near-term cost against his
[1:55:09] near-term incentives and pursue
[1:55:12] launching his own.
[1:55:13] >> Yes. And what's interesting what what's
[1:55:15] most interesting about that story and
[1:55:17] it's not we don't make a lot of it. It's
[1:55:19] just a passing remark but what happened
[1:55:22] was he decided not to support
[1:55:28] a company going forward.
[1:55:30] >> Crystal
[1:55:31] >> yes which he had made very popular in
[1:55:35] the hip-hop community. He was the first
[1:55:37] person to drink it. Nobody knew what it
[1:55:38] was. He talked about it in in records,
[1:55:41] in songs, and it became a very popular
[1:55:45] drink in the hip-hop community.
[1:55:48] And the person who ran Crystal said some
[1:55:51] disparaging remarks about it, about
[1:55:54] hip-hop people drinking Crystal.
[1:55:56] >> I can't get them to stop drinking it.
[1:55:58] >> Yeah. And Jay was insulted, rightly so.
[1:56:02] And he said, "You know what? No more. I
[1:56:05] won't do that anymore." Now, he that
[1:56:09] didn't happen and then he thought, I'm
[1:56:10] going to go start my own. That's not
[1:56:11] what happened. That happened and almost
[1:56:15] immediately
[1:56:17] someone came to him and said, I'm
[1:56:19] thinking about starting this brand. Do
[1:56:20] you want to do it with me?
[1:56:24] And all they had was the bottle. Which
[1:56:25] he loved the shape of the bottle and he
[1:56:27] loved that it was a gold bottle.
[1:56:30] And
[1:56:32] it's like the universe allowed
[1:56:37] first he gets this negative comment he
[1:56:40] reacts following his belief stood for
[1:56:44] what he believed in
[1:56:44] >> removed it from his clubs.
[1:56:46] >> Yes. And this new opportunity that he
[1:56:49] was not looking for
[1:56:52] arrives
[1:56:54] and it's like you couldn't write the
[1:56:56] story. I mean, you could write the
[1:56:58] story, but it seems almost unbelievable
[1:57:00] the way it happened, but that's how it
[1:57:02] really happened. And that's again like
[1:57:05] the miraculous nature of Jay did the
[1:57:09] right thing and in response for doing
[1:57:11] the right thing,
[1:57:13] he ended up owning a champagne brand.
[1:57:17] >> Do you believe that's how the universe
[1:57:18] is working?
[1:57:19] >> Yes,
[1:57:20] >> I know it.
[1:57:22] I know it.
[1:57:23] >> Is that karma? What is that?
[1:57:25] >> Well, that's part it. You could call it
[1:57:27] that. It's like there there's a lot of
[1:57:28] there's a lot of names. There's a lot of
[1:57:31] labels, but you can call it karma.
[1:57:35] >> When he took that action, he wasn't
[1:57:36] thinking about how he might benefit.
[1:57:40] Not at all. All he knew was these guys
[1:57:43] are insulting this movement and I'm not
[1:57:46] going to have anything to do with them
[1:57:47] anymore after I was telling everybody
[1:57:50] this is the best stuff. They insult us.
[1:57:55] They're we crossing them off. They're
[1:57:58] not for us anymore. We will not give
[1:58:00] them our business.
[1:58:02] He wasn't thinking about starting a
[1:58:04] business. He was he wasn't thinking
[1:58:05] about that at all.
[1:58:08] But it became a great business.
[1:58:09] >> It became a great business. But it's
[1:58:11] it's the universe filled the void. This
[1:58:14] is another thing we could talk about.
[1:58:16] It's an interesting idea.
[1:58:18] You're in a you're dating someone.
[1:58:23] you think maybe this is not this is not
[1:58:26] right for the long term
[1:58:29] but you're going along with it and then
[1:58:31] you think well maybe I'll meet someone
[1:58:34] while this is happening and then if I
[1:58:36] like that person more then I'll get out
[1:58:37] of this relationship for that
[1:58:38] relationship and switch a lot of people
[1:58:41] do this I feel like it's not the way I
[1:58:44] don't I don't think that's the way it
[1:58:46] works I think
[1:58:48] when you know that something isn't
[1:58:50] working and you end it and you create
[1:58:54] that vacuum. You create that space,
[1:58:58] the good thing that you're looking for
[1:59:00] can come in to fill it. Jay wasn't
[1:59:02] looking in this case, he wasn't looking
[1:59:04] for a good thing to fill it, but he did
[1:59:06] create a vacuum in his life. There's a
[1:59:09] thing that he's out there representing.
[1:59:12] And now he decides based on their
[1:59:14] action, I'm not going to represent this
[1:59:16] anymore. And the universe steps in and
[1:59:18] says, you know what? you were doing a
[1:59:21] good job representing that thing.
[1:59:24] How about representing one for yourself
[1:59:25] that you can feel good about
[1:59:27] representing?
[1:59:29] >> It's funny what you were saying there um
[1:59:31] about creating a vacuum. We in culture
[1:59:33] like generally in society we celebrate
[1:59:35] starting. So like you know you start a
[1:59:38] new job, you start a new thing but
[1:59:39] obviously from what you've just said
[1:59:41] logically
[1:59:42] you can't really start anything big in
[1:59:44] life without first doing something which
[1:59:45] none of us really glamorize actually
[1:59:47] it's the opposite. We say never quit.
[1:59:48] Don't quit. Yeah,
[1:59:50] >> but that is the necessary first step to
[1:59:52] starting to starting a brand which in
[1:59:55] Jay-Z's case went on to be worth 630
[1:59:58] million at the time when he sold his
[1:59:59] stake. Um, we have a weird relationship
[2:00:02] with quitting. We need certainty. I need
[2:00:05] the branch.
[2:00:06] >> Yeah.
[2:00:08] No, I think that's it's an empowering
[2:00:10] thing. It's like taking control. I just
[2:00:13] had a conversation about this recently
[2:00:14] with someone who's a
[2:00:17] very high up person in a very high-tech
[2:00:19] company who is um who's decided to step
[2:00:23] down and he's stepping down for the
[2:00:25] right reasons
[2:00:27] and he's concerned that people the
[2:00:29] perception will be he's being fired that
[2:00:32] that'll be the outside world but he's
[2:00:33] really stepping down because he doesn't
[2:00:35] like what's going on there and usually
[2:00:37] people don't leave jobs at that level. M
[2:00:41] >> so it's an interesting it's an
[2:00:43] interesting moment in time when that
[2:00:44] when that happens
[2:00:46] >> similar to what you were saying about
[2:00:47] getting artists to step outside of their
[2:00:49] genre to quit their genre.
[2:00:51] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[2:00:55] >> This is something that I've made for
[2:00:57] you. I realize that the dire audience
[2:00:59] are strivvers whether it's in business
[2:01:01] or health. We all have big goals that we
[2:01:03] want to accomplish. And one of the
[2:01:05] things I've learned is that when you aim
[2:01:07] at the big big big goal, it can feel
[2:01:09] incredibly psychologically uncomfortable
[2:01:12] because it's kind of like being stood at
[2:01:14] the foot of Mount Everest and looking
[2:01:15] upwards. The way to accomplish your
[2:01:17] goals is by breaking them down into tiny
[2:01:20] small steps. And we call this in our
[2:01:22] team the 1%. And actually this
[2:01:24] philosophy is highly responsible for
[2:01:26] much of our success here. So, what we've
[2:01:28] done so that you at home can accomplish
[2:01:30] any big goal that you have is we've made
[2:01:33] these 1% diaries and we released these
[2:01:35] last year and they all sold out. So, I
[2:01:38] asked my team over and over again to
[2:01:39] bring the diaries back, but also to
[2:01:41] introduce some new colors and to make
[2:01:42] some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now
[2:01:44] we have a better range for you. So, if
[2:01:49] you have a big goal in mind and you need
[2:01:50] a framework and a process and some
[2:01:52] motivation, then I highly recommend you
[2:01:55] get one of these diaries before they all
[2:01:57] sell out once again. And you can get
[2:01:58] yours at the diary.com.
[2:02:01] And if you want the link, the link is in
[2:02:02] the description below. There should be a
[2:02:04] button just down below here. And if it
[2:02:06] says subscribed, you're already
[2:02:08] subscribed. If it says subscriber, that
[2:02:10] means you're not yet. And if you're not
[2:02:12] subscribed, please could you do us a
[2:02:13] favor and hit that button? It helps the
[2:02:14] show more than you know. And according
[2:02:16] to the algorithm, you're someone that
[2:02:18] watches our show, but you haven't yet
[2:02:19] hit that button. Thank you so much. I
[2:02:22] hear you used to make music with one of
[2:02:23] these things here. I've never used that
[2:02:26] particular device, but it looks
[2:02:27] beautiful.
[2:02:29] >> You know, if I came to you, Rick, and I
[2:02:31] went,
[2:02:34] I love that.
[2:02:35] >> Yeah.
[2:02:36] >> And clearly, I mean, objectively, it
[2:02:39] wasn't great.
[2:02:40] >> I don't know. could be great
[2:02:42] >> if but if I [music] if I was like Rick
[2:02:48] >> I want to put that out.
[2:02:49] >> Do you really believe it's great? If you
[2:02:51] really believe it's great I support you
[2:02:52] putting it out.
[2:02:53] >> Really?
[2:02:54] >> If you really believe it's great. Yes.
[2:02:57] >> Would you interrogate?
[2:02:58] >> You're giving me this hypothetical with
[2:03:00] like what if this thing that's bad if I
[2:03:02] tell you I think it's great. It's like
[2:03:04] you don't believe it's great.
[2:03:07] I trust when you tell me I really love
[2:03:09] this thing. I want to play it for
[2:03:11] people. I support that.
[2:03:14] >> Even if you don't, it doesn't matter if
[2:03:15] you
[2:03:16] >> doesn't matter. And if I don't like it,
[2:03:17] I'll say you might want to try these
[2:03:20] things.
[2:03:21] But I always support somebody who makes
[2:03:24] something that they love. That's
[2:03:26] beautiful for the world.
[2:03:27] >> Is there an example of that with artists
[2:03:29] you've worked with where they presented
[2:03:30] you with something and you didn't really
[2:03:32] get it, you didn't feel it? You didn't
[2:03:33] like it. They put it out and it was a
[2:03:35] huge success for them but also for the
[2:03:37] audience.
[2:03:39] >> I can think of one but I don't really
[2:03:41] want to talk about it but yes I could
[2:03:43] think of one. It it has happened.
[2:03:47] >> Is there anything you can tell me about
[2:03:48] it without identifying what the song was
[2:03:50] or the person was?
[2:03:51] >> Um
[2:03:53] I was working with an artist and there
[2:03:55] were lots of good songs and there was
[2:03:57] one song that I felt like this one
[2:04:00] doesn't fit with all the rest. M it
[2:04:02] feels like it doesn't go with the others
[2:04:04] and um the artist chose to include that
[2:04:08] one and it ended up becoming a big hit
[2:04:13] wasn't the first single but it did
[2:04:14] become a big hit
[2:04:18] and
[2:04:20] it's anytime I give my opinion this
[2:04:23] isn't this is a really interesting idea
[2:04:25] this idea of I'm asked how do I have the
[2:04:29] confidence
[2:04:30] cuz when I say I don't like something, I
[2:04:32] really mean it. It's like, well, how
[2:04:34] could you have the confidence that it's
[2:04:35] not good? It's like, well, I have the
[2:04:37] confidence that I don't like the pizza.
[2:04:41] >> It It doesn't mean more than that. You
[2:04:44] know, it ends I was asked to produce
[2:04:46] Guns and Roses's first album and I
[2:04:48] turned them down because I went to see
[2:04:50] him live, played in a little club in a
[2:04:52] basement, maybe 30 people there, and
[2:04:55] they were they were a hair band at the
[2:04:57] time with makeup and stuff and I just
[2:04:58] looked like I don't really get it.
[2:05:01] Now, they went on to become Guns and
[2:05:03] Roses.
[2:05:04] It's good that I didn't work with them
[2:05:06] because if I would have worked with
[2:05:07] them, it might have turned into
[2:05:08] something different than what they did
[2:05:10] without me.
[2:05:12] >> Mhm.
[2:05:13] >> So, it wasn't the right it wasn't the
[2:05:14] right fit. Um,
[2:05:18] do you know what I'm saying? It's like,
[2:05:19] >> yeah,
[2:05:20] >> it's
[2:05:23] >> I'm honest about what I see and it's
[2:05:26] true, but it's only true for me.
[2:05:31] I'm wondering if you can be at the
[2:05:32] inverse of that if you can be a great
[2:05:34] creative and never be commercially
[2:05:36] successful ever. Absolutely.
[2:05:38] For sure.
[2:05:41] For sure.
[2:05:43] Probably more often than not. That's
[2:05:45] probably the
[2:05:47] That's probably regular
[2:05:50] because becoming successful has so much
[2:05:54] to do with other things beyond being
[2:05:57] talented. M
[2:05:58] >> like the talent is a piece but then the
[2:06:02] stars have to align like for for
[2:06:04] anything to break through and get
[2:06:05] successful.
[2:06:09] So many things have to go right so many
[2:06:13] totally out of your control.
[2:06:18] You must have worked with a lot of
[2:06:19] artists where you thought I know this
[2:06:20] person is so talented.
[2:06:22] >> Yeah.
[2:06:22] >> Um but for whatever reason they they
[2:06:25] just didn't
[2:06:26] >> Yeah. It happens. the world wasn't. It
[2:06:28] happens. And that also could be a karmic
[2:06:30] thing like there could be maybe for some
[2:06:33] reason this person as good as they are
[2:06:36] that's not their path on this life.
[2:06:39] Maybe success is not part of their life
[2:06:41] path.
[2:06:44] Who knows? That's a it's a different
[2:06:45] that's a different question. You know,
[2:06:48] >> you co-founded Death Jam when you were a
[2:06:51] very young young man. I think you were
[2:06:53] 21 years old when you co-ounded Death
[2:06:54] Jam.
[2:06:56] And then
[2:06:58] >> through that process, you you got to
[2:06:59] meet, you know, some incredible people.
[2:07:01] I've got some of the albums that you
[2:07:02] produced around that time and published.
[2:07:04] Um, but one of those people through
[2:07:06] throughout your career and then
[2:07:07] thereafter was Jay-Z. What was special
[2:07:10] about Jay?
[2:07:12] Jay wrote in a way that no one else
[2:07:14] wrote. All the other rappers that I
[2:07:17] worked with spent a lot of time writing
[2:07:19] lyrics. And I never saw Jay write
[2:07:22] lyrics.
[2:07:24] And when I got to work with him, I got
[2:07:25] to see him not physically write lyrics.
[2:07:29] And when I played him the beat for 99
[2:07:31] Problems,
[2:07:33] he said, "Okay, just keep looping it.
[2:07:35] Keep playing it over and over again."
[2:07:37] And he sat in the back of the room. And
[2:07:39] it went on long enough that I almost
[2:07:40] forgot that he was there because I was
[2:07:42] talking to the engineer and song's just
[2:07:44] playing over and over. And he's silent
[2:07:45] in the back. On occasion, you could hear
[2:07:47] him mumbling or humming.
[2:07:50] And then after 20 or 30 minutes, he's
[2:07:52] like, "Okay, I got it." Ran into the
[2:07:54] other room and did the first verse
[2:07:57] totally the whole thing. No, nothing was
[2:08:00] written. Just
[2:08:03] he just remembered it. And he did it. He
[2:08:06] did several takes. And each of the takes
[2:08:08] the words were the same, but the cadence
[2:08:11] was different. Like almost as if a
[2:08:14] saxoponist was playing a solo. And you
[2:08:16] you know how the solo goes, but every
[2:08:18] time you play it, you play a little
[2:08:19] different.
[2:08:20] >> Mhm.
[2:08:21] >> That's what it was like. Like it had
[2:08:23] emphasis in different places and the
[2:08:26] cadence was a little different and one
[2:08:28] word might be featured in one version
[2:08:30] whereas in the next version that word
[2:08:32] just kind of went by less important. Um
[2:08:35] and then so he did let's say three takes
[2:08:39] and then he came in, he'd listen to him.
[2:08:40] He's like, "Oh yeah, I think the second
[2:08:41] one's good." And then he's like, "Okay,
[2:08:43] keep playing it and I'll" and he sat
[2:08:45] back down and he did the same thing
[2:08:47] again about another half hour later.
[2:08:48] He's like, "Let's do the next one till
[2:08:50] he was ready." So he just it just
[2:08:52] happens in his mind.
[2:08:55] >> What is that? Is that taste? Is that
[2:08:57] >> I don't know. It's a it's a real and
[2:09:00] unusual skill set. Very unusual. I don't
[2:09:03] know how he how he can remember cuz it's
[2:09:06] complicated. It's not like in a rock
[2:09:08] song there might be four lines in a
[2:09:10] verse. pretty easy to remember. But rap
[2:09:13] songs have a lot of words and it's
[2:09:15] complicated.
[2:09:17] But so that was that was the first thing
[2:09:20] that really I would say separated him
[2:09:22] from everyone else from me is that his
[2:09:23] process was totally different than
[2:09:24] anyone else I ever worked with.
[2:09:27] >> Which is interesting cuz other people
[2:09:28] might arrive at the same outcome but
[2:09:30] take a different journey there. They
[2:09:31] might, you know, write lots of things
[2:09:34] down and
[2:09:35] >> Yeah.
[2:09:36] >> So there's not a correct process. No,
[2:09:38] there's ne with all of these things that
[2:09:40] aren't there's never a right way.
[2:09:44] What what works for one person doesn't
[2:09:46] mean it works for someone else. And
[2:09:47] that's one of the real dangers of
[2:09:49] getting advice from people is someone
[2:09:52] tells you, I wrote it this way and it
[2:09:54] was really successful, so this is how
[2:09:56] you have to do it.
[2:09:57] >> But that's not true. That it might work,
[2:10:00] but that might be the way that it works
[2:10:02] for that guy, not you. M
[2:10:05] >> so always be wary when getting advice
[2:10:08] because again people give you advice
[2:10:10] with the best intentions but they're
[2:10:12] giving you advice based on their story
[2:10:14] not your story.
[2:10:16] So where do we get advice from?
[2:10:20] >> I would say listening to a lot of stuff.
[2:10:23] It depends on what what the sub like
[2:10:25] what where we're what what medium we're
[2:10:28] working in. But I would swim deeply in
[2:10:32] that medium, whatever it is,
[2:10:35] and then really listen to what's going
[2:10:38] on in you. It it has to do with you,
[2:10:43] how you see it.
[2:10:45] It's an internal um it's an internal
[2:10:49] compass that tells you where to go.
[2:10:51] And I'll also say there may not only be
[2:10:55] one answer. There may not even be a
[2:10:57] right answer. And that's where it really
[2:11:00] comes down to like this internal feeling
[2:11:05] of I would take as I would hear as much
[2:11:08] information from as many people as
[2:11:10] possible hopefully conflicting
[2:11:14] and then really check in and take as
[2:11:17] much time as it takes to internally get
[2:11:19] to a point of where you know what you
[2:11:21] know what the right answer is. You know
[2:11:23] what the right answer for you is. M
[2:11:25] >> there is no right answer but you know
[2:11:28] what the right answer for you is
[2:11:31] and that's what you always want to get
[2:11:32] to what is the right answer for me how
[2:11:34] do I know
[2:11:36] >> you'll know it and if you don't know it
[2:11:39] you don't have enough there's not enough
[2:11:41] you haven't done enough research yet
[2:11:43] because you it has to come from you it
[2:11:46] has to come from you of
[2:11:49] I've gotten to the point I've done
[2:11:51] enough homework
[2:11:54] of conflicting information
[2:11:58] where I can listen to myself and I feel
[2:12:00] good about it.
[2:12:03] >> One of the ways um that that noise that
[2:12:06] voice inside of us gets conflicted is we
[2:12:08] have our parents. I I know your story. I
[2:12:10] know your parents, you know, they kind
[2:12:11] of thought maybe you'd be a doctor, but
[2:12:13] you didn't like needles. So, they were
[2:12:14] like, "Okay, he can be a lawyer." A lot
[2:12:16] of people say they have that voice, my
[2:12:18] parents. and and it's sometimes hard to
[2:12:20] untangle what voices me and my wishes
[2:12:23] >> versus external.
[2:12:25] >> Yes.
[2:12:26] >> I remember when I first went to college
[2:12:28] and moved out of my parents house, it
[2:12:30] took me probably a year
[2:12:33] to understand
[2:12:35] what in my head was me and what in my
[2:12:38] head was them. I was definitely confused
[2:12:44] but had to create that space or lucky
[2:12:48] enough to create that space to to allow
[2:12:50] it to happen. Again, I didn't go to
[2:12:53] college for that to happen. But in
[2:12:57] college, being outside of the house,
[2:13:02] I started to understand
[2:13:06] who I was and who they were and where we
[2:13:10] were aligned and where we saw the world
[2:13:11] differently. And it was fine, but it
[2:13:14] took time because I didn't know that. I
[2:13:17] didn't know that. If you ask a lot of
[2:13:19] people who they want to be or in your
[2:13:21] case in music, you know, what what music
[2:13:23] they want to make or what their goal is,
[2:13:24] they will say things that they don't
[2:13:26] realize have come from somewhere else.
[2:13:28] >> Yes.
[2:13:28] >> Happens a lot in my life. I'll I'll
[2:13:30] interview someone. I'll say, "What do
[2:13:31] you want to be?" And they'll say
[2:13:32] something just arbitrary and big and
[2:13:34] fancy.
[2:13:35] >> And then often times when you like ask
[2:13:37] >> more questions, there's nothing behind
[2:13:38] it.
[2:13:39] >> So they got it from Instagram or they
[2:13:41] got it from their parents. How how how
[2:13:44] can we cultivate a better understanding
[2:13:46] of um of our own truth? It's like when I
[2:13:48] played you that bad song, you started
[2:13:49] trying to you went in search of truth.
[2:13:52] How can I How can I know? How can I pass
[2:13:54] out what is me and my alignment and what
[2:13:56] is inherited from somewhere else? I I as
[2:14:01] I said before, I think you need to find
[2:14:03] some practices that ground you in
[2:14:05] yourself. Meditation is a great one. I'm
[2:14:08] sure there are others,
[2:14:11] but you have to get in touch with you
[2:14:14] with you. Maybe therapy works for some
[2:14:16] people.
[2:14:18] Well, you got to get to where who you
[2:14:20] are.
[2:14:23] >> It's a it's a it's a big job. It's a big
[2:14:26] job. And it's not it's not a quick
[2:14:28] There's no quick fix. I remember the
[2:14:30] first time I ever
[2:14:32] was in a talk therapy session. I
[2:14:34] remember not knowing how to talk. I
[2:14:36] didn't know how I felt about anything.
[2:14:39] I didn't know how to talk. I didn't know
[2:14:41] about my inner state at all. And only
[2:14:44] through repetition and doing it over
[2:14:47] time and you start understanding. So
[2:14:50] it's just another skill set to develop.
[2:14:53] I never looked inward. Even with all the
[2:14:56] years of meditation, I never looked
[2:14:57] inward.
[2:14:59] >> Are you there now?
[2:15:01] >> I think so.
[2:15:02] >> Do you know who you are?
[2:15:03] >> I think I don't know that I could
[2:15:04] explain it, but I feel like I feel like
[2:15:07] I am
[2:15:09] uh grounded in myself and I feel it
[2:15:12] pretty clearly.
[2:15:13] What's the difference between when you
[2:15:16] weren't and now that you are? Is it a
[2:15:17] feeling or is it is there a symptom? Is
[2:15:20] it happiness?
[2:15:24] I would say there's more of a No, there
[2:15:26] was happiness there, too. So, it's it's
[2:15:28] not happiness. There was happiness in
[2:15:32] in the time that I didn't know who I
[2:15:34] was. I probably didn't know why, but I I
[2:15:37] remember being happy.
[2:15:40] Um, it's not happiness.
[2:15:45] Yeah, I think I come back to the word
[2:15:47] knowingness just like
[2:15:50] you feel it.
[2:15:55] When you ask me something, I can tell
[2:15:58] you how I feel. I can tell you how I see
[2:16:01] it. I don't know if I was able to do
[2:16:03] that before.
[2:16:05] >> I'm talking about when I was young. I I
[2:16:07] don't know if I could do that.
[2:16:08] >> Are you telling me
[2:16:09] >> I still like the things I liked. My
[2:16:11] taste was still my taste, but I don't
[2:16:13] think I could um
[2:16:18] I don't know that I could access it as
[2:16:20] well as I can now.
[2:16:23] >> Is happiness a goal to aim for?
[2:16:26] >> Well, I like happiness. I I don't think
[2:16:28] it's a goal, but but I I definitely
[2:16:31] would rather be happy than not. Joyful
[2:16:34] is beautiful. Um I I I think maybe the
[2:16:37] word is peace. Getting to a point of
[2:16:42] cuz peace like resting in peace
[2:16:48] seems like a really good state.
[2:16:53] And I guess when things get if things
[2:16:56] get too high, there's always the other
[2:16:59] side,
[2:17:00] you know,
[2:17:01] >> like even if if I if I find myself in a
[2:17:05] really great mood, which does happen
[2:17:07] sometimes,
[2:17:09] >> sometimes the next day I'm just in a bad
[2:17:10] mood. And it almost feels like it's a
[2:17:13] it's a maybe it's a chemical thing.
[2:17:16] Maybe if you burn if you really use the
[2:17:19] feel-good chemicals,
[2:17:21] maybe there's a deficit the next day. I
[2:17:23] don't know. I don't know how it works,
[2:17:25] but it feels like if everything's cool
[2:17:28] and if that keeps going, I like that. An
[2:17:32] artist that is uh very familiar with the
[2:17:34] highs and the lows, one of my favorite
[2:17:35] artists is is Kanye. And you've worked
[2:17:37] with Kanye. I I want to ask the same
[2:17:39] question about what made him different,
[2:17:40] what makes him brilliant in your point
[2:17:41] of view.
[2:17:43] He's um
[2:17:46] I've said this to him.
[2:17:49] I'm totally fearless when it comes to
[2:17:51] art.
[2:17:52] He's totally fearless always. He's
[2:17:55] fearless in life. I'm not fearless in
[2:17:57] life. I'm a good collaborator for him at
[2:18:01] when it comes to art because I am
[2:18:02] fearless at art and [clears throat] not
[2:18:04] everybody is.
[2:18:06] But he's always fearless and it's um
[2:18:10] it's really something to behold.
[2:18:14] Great strength.
[2:18:17] It's rare to have that many um successes
[2:18:20] when you're taking such big risk. That's
[2:18:22] what fascinates me about him.
[2:18:23] >> Yeah. I don't agree with that
[2:18:25] >> really. No, no, no, no. I I think the
[2:18:29] risk and the success go hand in hand.
[2:18:32] It's only through the risk that the
[2:18:34] greatness is shown.
[2:18:37] So it's not possible to sort of produce
[2:18:38] more of the same and still be considered
[2:18:40] a great.
[2:18:42] I don't think so.
[2:18:44] I don't know. It It doesn't seem right
[2:18:47] to me. It feels like there's this edge.
[2:18:51] There's a tight rope and you're walking
[2:18:54] on the tight rope and if you make it,
[2:18:57] it's really good. And if you don't make
[2:19:00] it, it's not so good. But the only
[2:19:04] choice is the tightroppe.
[2:19:06] >> The risk.
[2:19:06] >> Yeah.
[2:19:08] >> And then you will achieve greatness.
[2:19:11] >> Well, if you if you make it, yes. If you
[2:19:15] make it, yes. But that's the risk. And
[2:19:16] it's the risk that I
[2:19:19] I wholeheartedly support.
[2:19:22] Wholeheartedly.
[2:19:23] >> Why?
[2:19:24] >> Because that's where it's at. Like
[2:19:26] that's if the goal is to make the be
[2:19:29] most beautiful thing you can and to
[2:19:30] self-express in the purest way.
[2:19:35] It's a razor's edge walk.
[2:19:38] There's nothing ordinary about it. It's
[2:19:43] beyond ordinary.
[2:19:45] There's nothing normal about it. Normal
[2:19:49] is nothing to aspire to.
[2:19:52] Average is nothing to aspire to.
[2:19:56] If you're looking for greatness,
[2:20:00] sometimes eggs get broken. But that's
[2:20:02] just but that's what comes with it.
[2:20:04] That's how it works.
[2:20:07] Are we all cut out for greatness? Cuz it
[2:20:08] comes with a cost. And walking tight
[2:20:10] ropes is not for everybody.
[2:20:11] >> Yeah. I think we all have potential. And
[2:20:14] when I say greatness, it's like we all
[2:20:15] have potential to be the greatest
[2:20:17] version of ourselves.
[2:20:19] You know, we we can be you can be the
[2:20:22] best version of you.
[2:20:25] I don't know what that is compared to
[2:20:27] other people who are great at other
[2:20:28] things.
[2:20:30] You know, I I'm it doesn't mean you'll
[2:20:32] be the best F1 driver,
[2:20:35] but your light can shine brighter than
[2:20:38] anyone else doing what you do. And I'm
[2:20:42] into that. I support that. I want to see
[2:20:45] that.
[2:20:46] >> With these great people, this big list
[2:20:48] of people that I have in front of me
[2:20:49] that you've worked with, I mean, it's
[2:20:50] just this endless endless almost
[2:20:52] unbelievable list. Everybody from like
[2:20:55] Justin Timberlake to the Red Hot Chili
[2:20:57] Peppers to helping I mean Kanye on his
[2:21:01] the record Runaway, which is one of the
[2:21:03] most incredible records of all time to
[2:21:06] um we've talked about Jay-Z and System
[2:21:07] of a Down and AC/DC and MC Jagger and I
[2:21:10] mean there's a endless list. When I look
[2:21:12] at it, I go, "Were these people all
[2:21:14] great?"
[2:21:15] >> Yes.
[2:21:15] >> And were they great from birth or or is
[2:21:19] are they ordinary people that made a
[2:21:21] decision?
[2:21:22] >> They're I would say they're ordinary
[2:21:24] people who made a decision. Maybe some
[2:21:25] of them had some particular gifts.
[2:21:28] Um but others were ordinary and
[2:21:32] cultivated a gift. That list, they're
[2:21:36] not special. They're not the only ones
[2:21:38] like that,
[2:21:41] but they really
[2:21:43] rode that wave. I think of Eminem as a
[2:21:45] good example. Eminem is someone who's
[2:21:47] always writing. He's always writing
[2:21:49] because he wants to be able, he wants to
[2:21:51] be the best he could possibly be, and
[2:21:54] he's insanely obsessive about that. So,
[2:21:58] his entire life is focused on sitting in
[2:22:02] a notepad writing all day and all night.
[2:22:04] It's all he does.
[2:22:08] That's what makes him him.
[2:22:10] >> Even if he's not publishing an album or
[2:22:13] >> doesn't matter.
[2:22:15] It's not he's not writing. I asked him
[2:22:17] one point looking at his notebooks. He's
[2:22:19] like, "Is all this going to, you know,
[2:22:21] is are all these?" He's like, "No, no,
[2:22:22] no. 99% of this stuff no one will ever
[2:22:24] see. I just want to be good. I want to
[2:22:28] I'm practicing. I'm I want to get better
[2:22:30] at what I do." He's in training always.
[2:22:35] If you think of it like an athlete, you
[2:22:36] know, there are athletes who there are
[2:22:38] some athletes who train in the offseason
[2:22:40] and there are some who don't.
[2:22:42] [clears throat] And the ones who train
[2:22:43] in the offseason are usually better and
[2:22:45] usually have a longer career. It's like
[2:22:48] that. When we sat down, you asked me a
[2:22:51] question. You said, um, you said,
[2:22:52] "Stephen, you you're doing this podcast.
[2:22:53] Have the guests changed you?" And much
[2:22:56] of what I've shown here is how you've
[2:22:57] changed people's lives through being a
[2:22:58] coach or a producer or however you might
[2:23:00] define that. My question to you is, can
[2:23:02] you give me a couple of example of
[2:23:03] artists that for whatever reason
[2:23:06] fundamentally changed you?
[2:23:09] >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is Johnny
[2:23:11] Cash.
[2:23:12] >> Johnny Cash. Um because I got to spend
[2:23:14] time around someone who was so
[2:23:19] humble and quiet and smart and didn't
[2:23:25] offer much. Like like if you didn't if
[2:23:28] you didn't draw him out, he wouldn't say
[2:23:30] anything.
[2:23:32] But anything you asked him about, he
[2:23:34] knew about and had a really incredible
[2:23:36] point of view. But he wasn't um
[2:23:40] he didn't have a need to let you know
[2:23:43] that
[2:23:44] >> it was all going on inside and he was a
[2:23:47] beautiful spiritual person and I loved
[2:23:49] him and I feel like
[2:23:52] my life was really improved getting to
[2:23:54] spend so much time with someone so so
[2:23:57] inspiring. That's one.
[2:24:00] >> What is the um emotion there?
[2:24:03] >> Where's
[2:24:04] >> There was some emotion there.
[2:24:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. He's beautiful man.
[2:24:08] Beautiful man.
[2:24:13] Next one would be um Tom Petty who was
[2:24:22] he was the ultimate craftsman. So in the
[2:24:26] Beatles you have John and Paul and John
[2:24:30] was more of a raw nerve who
[2:24:34] tore his chest open and led with his
[2:24:37] heart and then Paul was more of a almost
[2:24:41] like a
[2:24:44] a savant of music like like a crafts
[2:24:47] person. Paul could take anything and
[2:24:50] make it good.
[2:24:52] John was like a raw nerve who could just
[2:24:57] show his soul and they're two very
[2:25:00] different skills and together that's
[2:25:02] what makes it the Beatles. Also the fact
[2:25:04] that George and Ring are incredible. I
[2:25:05] mean even with you know even as great as
[2:25:09] as Paul and John are, it's only the
[2:25:14] Beatles when it's the four of them.
[2:25:17] Paul is the craftsman. Paul knows all
[2:25:20] the parts. Paul knows how to put it
[2:25:22] together. He was the only one of the
[2:25:24] Beatles who knew how to do that other
[2:25:26] than George Martin whose job was to do
[2:25:28] that. But Paul understood that side of
[2:25:30] it. [gasps]
[2:25:32] Tom Petty was like Paul. He could do he
[2:25:36] could play anything.
[2:25:38] He saw all ways around it. He knew how
[2:25:42] to make it.
[2:25:44] And in addition to that was a great
[2:25:47] songwriter. So he had kind of what was
[2:25:50] great about John and Paul both in him.
[2:25:56] So being around him was really
[2:25:57] inspiring. Also as a record producer I
[2:25:59] learned a lot from
[2:26:02] getting to work with him. I offered a
[2:26:05] outside perspective. I was younger
[2:26:08] different. So I I brought something to
[2:26:09] the table, but I learned a tremendous
[2:26:12] amount because at the time that I worked
[2:26:14] with him, I had only worked with artists
[2:26:15] who had, you know, made their first
[2:26:17] albums, like new artists. And he was a
[2:26:20] very established,
[2:26:23] brilliant studio recording artist. So I
[2:26:27] got to learn a lot working with him.
[2:26:29] >> What did he teach you? if there had to
[2:26:31] just be one lesson you pulled out.
[2:26:33] >> One of the things he talked about was
[2:26:34] everything always had to be in time and
[2:26:36] in tune. You have to understand every
[2:26:40] word of the vocals.
[2:26:42] Seems like an obvious thing, but so many
[2:26:45] records you can't understand every word.
[2:26:48] And he would listen back and he's like,
[2:26:49] "Ah, this word is supposed to be plural
[2:26:52] and you can't hear the s. I have to
[2:26:54] re-record it or I have to maybe we could
[2:26:55] punch in the S because if you can't
[2:26:57] understand it, it loses something in
[2:27:00] translation. You have to understand
[2:27:02] every word. Um so timing, tune,
[2:27:07] um
[2:27:09] he also was another person who would
[2:27:12] work forever on it until it was right.
[2:27:14] He would he would he was not at all
[2:27:16] lazy. He would never want it to be done.
[2:27:20] The first album we worked on together
[2:27:21] was called Wild Flowers. And I think we
[2:27:24] probably worked on it, not every day,
[2:27:25] but we worked on it over 2 years,
[2:27:28] probably 2 and 1/2 years. It's a long
[2:27:30] time for an album at that point in time
[2:27:32] especially. It was a long time, but
[2:27:34] there was no hurry. It was just like,
[2:27:35] oh, we're making progress. Let's keep
[2:27:37] going. Let's keep going. Let's keep
[2:27:38] going. And um so I learned a lot from
[2:27:42] him also about patience.
[2:27:44] >> Some might say that's perfectionism. And
[2:27:47] people think of perfectionism as a form
[2:27:48] of procrastination. And yeah, there was
[2:27:50] no procrastination in it. And I've been
[2:27:52] around both. Like I've been around
[2:27:54] procrastinating artists, too. It's a
[2:27:56] whole different thing.
[2:27:57] >> How do you know? How do you know if
[2:27:58] you're a perfectionist or a
[2:27:59] procrastinator? Is there a symptom?
[2:28:01] >> Yeah. The the real proc the real
[2:28:04] procrastinators get to the point usually
[2:28:06] has to do with
[2:28:08] being afraid to put it out into the
[2:28:10] world. So there are some artists I know,
[2:28:13] famous artists, you you know who they
[2:28:15] are, who haven't put out album, haven't
[2:28:18] put out an album for 10 years. I think
[2:28:21] the longer you wait, the harder it gets
[2:28:24] in general.
[2:28:25] >> Why
[2:28:27] the pressure like the longer you wait,
[2:28:31] the more it feels like it can never live
[2:28:33] up to what the expectation is.
[2:28:37] It's a difficult position to get into.
[2:28:41] And the perfectionist,
[2:28:43] their reason for delay is not to do with
[2:28:45] fear. It's to do with something else. Is
[2:28:48] that what you're saying? Hard to know.
[2:28:50] Hard to know. I don't know.
[2:28:54] Yeah. I don't know.
[2:28:57] So, those are two artists that you've
[2:28:58] mentioned that changed you, Johnny and
[2:29:00] um Tom. Is there any others that front
[2:29:03] of mind?
[2:29:03] >> Let me see.
[2:29:05] Adele,
[2:29:08] >> she's really good.
[2:29:10] >> I mean, she's amazing. She's like myth.
[2:29:12] I feel like everything she does is
[2:29:14] great.
[2:29:16] When she sings,
[2:29:19] everything stops. And she can do it over
[2:29:22] and over again. And it's always great.
[2:29:24] It's not like some singers work for a
[2:29:27] long time singing a bunch takes piecing
[2:29:29] them together to get the good one.
[2:29:31] She'll sing a song 30 times in a row and
[2:29:36] it'll be great 30 times. Might not be
[2:29:38] the same 30 times, but it'll always be
[2:29:40] great.
[2:29:40] >> You produced um her 21 album,
[2:29:43] >> worked on songs on there,
[2:29:44] >> some of that.
[2:29:46] >> Did you know she was great when you met
[2:29:48] her? Was there something that made her
[2:29:50] distinctive from these other great
[2:29:52] artists? at a time when most pop artists
[2:29:55] at that time didn't write their own
[2:29:57] songs.
[2:29:59] She was more like a throwback to the 70s
[2:30:02] singer songwriters.
[2:30:04] So, there was something about her. I
[2:30:06] also got to work with Shakira, who also
[2:30:07] writes her own songs, and there's
[2:30:10] something about those pop artists who
[2:30:11] write their own songs that it's
[2:30:14] different than someone who can just
[2:30:15] deliver a song well.
[2:30:18] Um, so I feel like it's a little bit of
[2:30:20] an anomaly in a pop world where so much
[2:30:22] of it is more I want to say
[2:30:24] manufactured, meaning a bunch of people
[2:30:26] work on the song and then the singer
[2:30:28] sings the song.
[2:30:29] >> Mhm.
[2:30:29] >> Adele, a key piece is that it always
[2:30:33] comes from her and you can feel that in
[2:30:37] the songs and it's more personal and I
[2:30:40] love that.
[2:30:43] >> You can feel it. I've seen her live as
[2:30:45] well. feels like this the first time
[2:30:46] she's ever sung the song when you we
[2:30:48] experience her life. Rick, what is the
[2:30:50] most important thing we haven't talked
[2:30:51] about that we shouldn't talked about
[2:30:53] should have talked about as it relates
[2:30:54] to creativity and the art of making
[2:30:57] great things or good things or whatever
[2:31:00] the measurement stick might be.
[2:31:02] >> I think we've kind of covered it. The
[2:31:04] the the main idea really is don't listen
[2:31:06] to what anyone tells you.
[2:31:08] Be true to yourself.
[2:31:10] Work hard. Never give up. Don't quit.
[2:31:15] and just keep going and and don't put
[2:31:18] undue pressure on your art. Find a way
[2:31:23] to live that doesn't put pressure on
[2:31:26] your art so that you could be totally
[2:31:28] free in the things that you're making
[2:31:30] for them to be the dream version. And
[2:31:34] hopefully at some point
[2:31:38] the dream version takes over and it
[2:31:41] becomes your whole life, not just your
[2:31:42] passion.
[2:31:45] Why did you make this documentary with
[2:31:47] Jay-Z?
[2:31:48] >> Well, I had made a documentary with Paul
[2:31:50] McCartney a few years ago that was six
[2:31:53] episodes. And the reason for that one
[2:31:55] was
[2:31:57] there were no I never I never saw any
[2:32:00] documentaries about either Paul or the
[2:32:02] Beatles about musicianship. They were
[2:32:04] always about either the songwriting or
[2:32:06] about Beatlemania.
[2:32:09] And I thought without the musicianship
[2:32:12] there wouldn't be Beatle Mania. And yes,
[2:32:15] you need Yes, the songs you couldn't
[2:32:17] deliver the songs without the
[2:32:18] musicianship. So, I thought there was
[2:32:20] this big void in the in the story of
[2:32:22] Paul if you were to make a list of the
[2:32:24] best bass players of all time. Paul
[2:32:27] belongs at number one, but most people
[2:32:29] wouldn't even put him on the list
[2:32:30] because you don't think of him as a bass
[2:32:32] player. You think of him as Beetle Paul.
[2:32:34] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[2:32:35] And I just thought there was an
[2:32:36] opportunity to um shed light on
[2:32:40] something that I love.
[2:32:43] And
[2:32:45] through I thought that was going to be a
[2:32:47] more traditional documentary, but it
[2:32:48] turned into a different kind of
[2:32:49] documentary. Happened by itself. Wasn't
[2:32:52] pre-planned.
[2:32:54] Turned into this interesting thing that
[2:32:56] was different than anything else that
[2:32:57] had been made with Paul or about the
[2:32:59] Beatles. And people liked it.
[2:33:03] It felt like a dream for me to be part
[2:33:04] of it. And after that happened, I was
[2:33:06] thinking about who else is I want to say
[2:33:10] misunderstood because that that's kind
[2:33:12] of what it is. Like
[2:33:14] yes, Paul's great and everyone knows
[2:33:16] Paul's great, but people don't think of
[2:33:18] him as a great musician. They think of
[2:33:19] him as something else.
[2:33:21] >> Mhm.
[2:33:23] >> And I started thinking about Jay-Z.
[2:33:25] >> Why?
[2:33:26] >> Because Jay-Z is thought of today as
[2:33:29] this incredible businessman. And he's uh
[2:33:33] you think of him as billionaire
[2:33:35] businessman
[2:33:37] um behind the scenes genius
[2:33:42] married to a famous singer.
[2:33:46] Most of what we think about him isn't
[2:33:50] poet. That's not the first thing you
[2:33:52] think of.
[2:33:53] And even the people who like Jay-Z might
[2:33:56] not really know the depth of the
[2:34:00] writing. And I thought it's an
[2:34:02] interesting story. Like the lyrics are
[2:34:04] really intricate and really difficult
[2:34:08] and it's astounding what he does and
[2:34:12] [clears throat and snorts] he's famous
[2:34:13] but and and that's the reason he's
[2:34:15] famous but nobody knows it. People see
[2:34:18] him in a different light. So I thought
[2:34:21] shedding light on the poet, the
[2:34:23] lyricist, the artistry of Jay-Z was a
[2:34:27] really interesting thing. And luckily I
[2:34:30] shared the idea with him and when he
[2:34:31] when I told him the idea he said
[2:34:34] he said I like it a lot. I'm not going
[2:34:37] to say yes because if I say yes we're
[2:34:40] going to make it and I don't know so
[2:34:43] I'll let you know. He said okay. And
[2:34:46] then we didn't talk it about again for
[2:34:48] probably a year.
[2:34:50] And then
[2:34:53] I called a friend of his and I said you
[2:34:55] know I shared this idea with Jay a year
[2:34:57] ago. but we haven't discussed it since.
[2:35:01] What do you think? He's like, call him
[2:35:03] and ask him. I said, I feel like I
[2:35:05] already told him the idea. Don't you
[2:35:08] think he should just call and ask tell
[2:35:09] me he wants to do it? He's like, if you
[2:35:11] don't call him, it's not going to
[2:35:12] happen. He's like, just call him and ask
[2:35:14] him. And he'll and he'll either say yes
[2:35:15] or no, but at least you could ask him.
[2:35:18] It's still I heard that that was good
[2:35:20] information given to me of what to do.
[2:35:22] And I probably didn't call for 6 months,
[2:35:25] 8 months, just cuz like felt
[2:35:27] uncomfortable, really discussed it.
[2:35:32] And eventually, I can't remember if it
[2:35:34] happened in a call or if I ran into him
[2:35:36] or if I went to see him. Can't remember.
[2:35:40] But the next time we talked about, he's
[2:35:41] like, "Yeah, let's do it." I said,
[2:35:43] "Okay." Then we did this.
[2:35:48] [snorts]
[2:35:48] >> It's stunning. It's stunning, I think,
[2:35:50] because it's different. So different in
[2:35:52] a way that's quite surprising. And um so
[2:35:55] a couple of observations I had is things
[2:35:57] are usually shot in a certain way. It
[2:36:00] felt like you had again once again
[2:36:02] abandoned the rules of how to shoot
[2:36:04] something like that. Even like the color
[2:36:06] the the color grading the like sort of
[2:36:08] black and white um color grade that I
[2:36:11] saw on the screen. And then some of the
[2:36:12] angles were a bit off. I'm like that's
[2:36:13] not how you shoot an interview. But for
[2:36:16] some reason, it felt like I was spying
[2:36:20] on a personal conversation.
[2:36:21] >> That's what it was. It was a deeply
[2:36:24] personal conversation.
[2:36:26] And
[2:36:28] in all the years of seeing interviews
[2:36:30] with Jay-Z, he doesn't do so many, but
[2:36:33] the ones that you've seen,
[2:36:35] >> he's never like that.
[2:36:36] >> Yeah.
[2:36:38] >> He's never like that. So, and this is
[2:36:40] really who he is. Like you really after
[2:36:43] you watch this, you'll really know who
[2:36:45] Jay-Z is, which is incredible. It's an
[2:36:48] incredible privilege to have that point
[2:36:50] of view of a real intimate view into
[2:36:54] someone so great.
[2:36:56] >> Clearly, he felt very safe with you as
[2:36:57] well because you do get that real side
[2:36:59] of Jay-Z that I think is really rare.
[2:37:01] Um, speaking of incredible things, this
[2:37:03] book is also an incredible thing. I know
[2:37:05] that in part because so many of my
[2:37:06] guests have come here and talked about
[2:37:08] it. Really? Oh, so many of them. and so
[2:37:11] many people hold it up as their favorite
[2:37:13] book on creativity. I think because it's
[2:37:14] challenging. Uh I think which is the
[2:37:17] essence of Rick Rubin in some respects
[2:37:18] is to be a challenging coach. This book
[2:37:21] I think finds itself being the same
[2:37:23] which is a very challenging coach. So I
[2:37:25] think it came out in 2023. I'm going to
[2:37:26] link it below for anyone that hasn't got
[2:37:27] it. If you haven't got it, I think it
[2:37:29] might be the challenge you need. And I
[2:37:30] don't necessarily think it's a book
[2:37:31] necessarily about creativity. It's it's
[2:37:33] really just I consider it to be a
[2:37:34] philosophy book. Dare I say.
[2:37:36] >> Yeah.
[2:37:38] >> Tarot cards. Some people noticed I think
[2:37:41] that you have is it 73
[2:37:43] >> 78
[2:37:44] >> 78
[2:37:46] we call them chapters
[2:37:47] >> areas of thought
[2:37:48] >> areas of thought in this book and that
[2:37:50] tarot cards have 78.
[2:37:52] >> Yes.
[2:37:53] >> Is there a link?
[2:37:54] >> There is and there isn't. I'll tell you
[2:37:56] the link and it's a pretty funny story.
[2:38:00] Originally there were I want to say 60
[2:38:07] I think there were 63 areas of thought
[2:38:10] when I first thought of areas of thought
[2:38:12] and giving them names.
[2:38:14] There was this period where the book
[2:38:16] wasn't separated into the ideas and it
[2:38:18] was just a lot of pages of ideas
[2:38:21] >> and then
[2:38:23] tried to move them after years of
[2:38:26] unsuccessful
[2:38:28] um organizational methods
[2:38:31] got to the point again through a lot of
[2:38:34] failed experiments and some successful
[2:38:37] experiments
[2:38:40] moved from
[2:38:42] 1400 pages into
[2:38:44] a little bit of a shape with the when
[2:38:47] the areas of thought came to be.
[2:38:50] And there were I I say I think there
[2:38:51] were 63. I have them they're handwritten
[2:38:53] and I I have a photograph of them in my
[2:38:55] phone. The original 63 areas of thought.
[2:38:59] And then once we separated all the ideas
[2:39:01] into the 63, there ended up being more.
[2:39:04] And I think there ended up being
[2:39:05] something like 80
[2:39:08] 82 or 83 84. They were in the 80s. And
[2:39:11] then the book was done and there were
[2:39:13] 80s something of them. And I have a
[2:39:15] collaborator named Neil who is a friend
[2:39:18] of mine who lived in my neighborhood,
[2:39:19] great writer who wanted it who was
[2:39:22] helped me from the beginning although
[2:39:23] not in an official capacity until the
[2:39:25] end. He he was involved the whole way
[2:39:28] and I was working with another another
[2:39:30] writer and it just didn't work out. And
[2:39:34] then we got to the point where there
[2:39:35] were these 83 or 84 areas of thought and
[2:39:38] it was all done and everybody was happy.
[2:39:41] And I remember calling my friend Neil
[2:39:42] and saying, "Okay, book's done. We have
[2:39:45] 83 areas of thought.
[2:39:48] I'd rather it be 78."
[2:39:51] He's like, "What are you talking about?
[2:39:53] What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I want
[2:39:56] it to be related to something.
[2:39:59] The tarot cards are 78. [snorts]
[2:40:02] If we had 103, I would say let's make it
[2:40:04] 108 to get it up to 108 because that's
[2:40:07] another There are certain numbers that
[2:40:09] are good numbers. 78,
[2:40:12] 108, 144 is a good one. It's some good
[2:40:16] numbers. I want it to have a reference
[2:40:19] to something else in the world of a
[2:40:21] number.
[2:40:23] And he and he's like,
[2:40:25] >> why?
[2:40:26] >> That's just that's how I feel. That's
[2:40:28] how I want it.
[2:40:31] And I remember him saying, he's like,
[2:40:32] "You're insane." He's like, "You've been
[2:40:35] working on this book for 8 years.
[2:40:38] Now you want it to be randomly 78
[2:40:41] instead of 83. It's good. Be happy. It's
[2:40:44] good. Be done." I said, "How? We have to
[2:40:47] get it figure out how to get make it
[2:40:49] 78."
[2:40:49] >> Why? Just a feeling. So listen, what
[2:40:54] happens next? I have an assistant at
[2:40:56] that time named Dylan.
[2:40:59] And
[2:41:01] we work on the 83 sections
[2:41:04] independently. So they're almost like
[2:41:06] separate essays. And when we would work
[2:41:08] on it, we would work on let's work on
[2:41:10] 37, whatever it is, whatever the title
[2:41:12] is, and just work on that section. We
[2:41:14] would work on each section
[2:41:15] independently.
[2:41:18] And I said, "Okay, put them all here's
[2:41:20] the order. Put them all in order." And
[2:41:23] he put them in order. And the next day
[2:41:24] came you were in Italy. I remember this
[2:41:27] is the day after the conversation with
[2:41:28] Neil where he told me I was crazy and he
[2:41:31] said it's the weirdest thing. I put them
[2:41:33] in order and there were 78 sections. I
[2:41:36] said no there were 83 yesterday. He's
[2:41:39] like now there's 78.
[2:41:42] I said where are the others? He said
[2:41:44] there are no others.
[2:41:47] That happened.
[2:41:50] So, did somebody miscount or something
[2:41:52] or
[2:41:52] >> don't know, nobody knows. But we were
[2:41:55] sure they were 80s something and it
[2:41:58] turned and I wanted it to be 78 and the
[2:42:01] next day there were 78 and nobody did
[2:42:04] anything.
[2:42:06] [gasps]
[2:42:06] Someday you're going to Neil's going to
[2:42:08] find four chapters and not mention it.
[2:42:10] Maybe or maybe you call excited like I
[2:42:13] told you you were crazy. Rick, we have a
[2:42:15] closing tradition where the last guest
[2:42:17] leaves a question for the next guest not
[2:42:18] knowing who they're leaving it for.
[2:42:20] If you could make a phone call and you
[2:42:22] had 60 seconds to call anybody and it
[2:42:24] had to be an apology, who would you call
[2:42:26] and what would you say and why?
[2:42:32] It's a hard question for me to answer
[2:42:34] for several reasons. One, I almost never
[2:42:38] make a phone call and I'm not really a
[2:42:40] phone person.
[2:42:42] >> So, the only reason I would call
[2:42:44] somebody would it would have to be some
[2:42:45] sort of an emergency situation.
[2:42:50] And I feel like
[2:42:53] there are not a lot of outstanding
[2:42:56] apologies to make.
[2:42:59] >> What about a thank you?
[2:43:00] >> A thank you would be great. I could call
[2:43:02] anyone and thank them.
[2:43:04] >> If you could only make one last phone
[2:43:05] call to say thank you.
[2:43:07] >> A one last phone call. I would probably
[2:43:10] call Moodielle, my wife, and just thank
[2:43:13] her for being in my life. and maybe
[2:43:16] either her or my child to just thank
[2:43:21] them for
[2:43:24] bringing so much light into my life.
[2:43:28] >> How did that change you?
[2:43:32] >> It's It's different. Totally different.
[2:43:34] Um
[2:43:39] it's beautiful being in a relationship.
[2:43:41] We travel as a pack. We go everywhere
[2:43:43] together. We've We've never been apart,
[2:43:46] I don't think. I think maybe in the 15
[2:43:49] years that I've been with my wife, we've
[2:43:51] maybe spent three nights apart
[2:43:53] >> in 15 years, something like that.
[2:43:57] >> And
[2:43:59] we're
[2:44:01] everything we do, we travel together.
[2:44:03] This this is a long time that I'm away
[2:44:05] from them. So, I'm looking forward to
[2:44:07] getting back with them
[2:44:08] >> and becoming a father.
[2:44:10] >> It's just so much fun. He I I get to see
[2:44:13] the world in uh
[2:44:16] I get to see the things that he's
[2:44:18] excited about that remind me of things I
[2:44:22] was excited about. And
[2:44:25] I get to show him things that I like and
[2:44:27] sometimes he likes them and sometimes he
[2:44:31] says things that I I can imagine how he
[2:44:35] how he knows them. There's a real wisdom
[2:44:39] that's uh it's baffling.
[2:44:43] It's just fun.
[2:44:45] >> You talk in the book about how children
[2:44:47] are the great reminder of what, you
[2:44:48] know, creativity might be at at its
[2:44:50] essence.
[2:44:50] >> Yeah.
[2:44:51] >> Before we it up.
[2:44:52] >> Yeah. And it's the it's the thing is
[2:44:54] that when you're a little kid, you
[2:44:57] haven't yet no one has told you what you
[2:45:00] can and can't do yet, how the world
[2:45:03] works. You really look at things with
[2:45:05] wonder.
[2:45:06] And that's the perspective of a great
[2:45:10] artist. They're they're walking around
[2:45:12] in wonder, in awe of things that maybe
[2:45:18] seem ordinary to everyone else, but the
[2:45:23] the world is filled with just incredible
[2:45:26] [snorts]
[2:45:27] beauty. It's breathtaking. It's
[2:45:29] breathtaking. People are amazing. Talk
[2:45:33] to anyone.
[2:45:35] It's interesting. People are interesting
[2:45:38] if you just slow down and really listen.
[2:45:43] >> Rick, thank you. Thank you for the
[2:45:45] inspiration and the wisdom and for being
[2:45:47] a challenge and coach to many millions
[2:45:49] of creatives all around the world and
[2:45:50] being fearlessly yourself. Um, this is a
[2:45:53] fantastic book. I'm going to link it
[2:45:54] below for everyone that hasn't yet read
[2:45:55] it. But also the HBO documentary with
[2:45:57] Jay-Z, the eight part documentary we
[2:45:58] referenced is out now on HBO. Um, comes
[2:46:02] out on September 18th. So, if you're
[2:46:03] watching us after that, it's already
[2:46:04] out. Um, thank you, Rick.
[2:46:07] >> My pleasure. It's on movie in the rest
[2:46:09] of the world.
[2:46:10] >> Rick, thank you.
[2:46:11] >> My pleasure.
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