Transcript
[0:00] interviewed 1,500 people as they're
[0:02] about to die. And what our research has
[0:04] shown is nearly 90% of people start to
[0:07] have very intense dreams or visions as
[0:09] they get closer to death and it's unlike
[0:11] anything they've ever experienced. And
[0:13] what's fascinating is these events don't
[0:15] resemble delirium. When we ask them to
[0:17] scale it 0 to 10 on the degree of
[0:20] realism, it's always a 10. So [music] it
[0:22] feels like this actually happened. Tell
[0:24] me about those people. Would it help to
[0:27] see a video?
[0:28] So after doing this for 30 years, what
[0:31] I've come to understand is we've lost
[0:33] our way with dying. There's such a lack
[0:35] of information and that void is
[0:37] overwhelmingly felt with fear and
[0:39] mistruths compounded by the fact that
[0:41] doctors don't have these discussions.
[0:43] >> Can you list them for me?
[0:44] >> First, I don't see people bringing up
[0:46] regret towards the end of their life.
[0:48] They're not thinking about do they
[0:49] regret something? No. Hell no. No, it's
[0:52] gone. [clears throat] Death is [music]
[0:53] this unbelievably truthful place. You're
[0:55] stripped to the bare bones of who you
[0:57] are. And if you think of the best
[0:59] version of yourself, it was never
[1:01] achieving something. It was being a son,
[1:03] it was being a brother, [music] it was
[1:04] being a friend. And then the big myths
[1:06] are that pain is expected and that's
[1:08] actually not true. [music] It's less
[1:09] painful than people think. Oh gosh, by a
[1:12] mile. But it's damning how little
[1:14] conversations there are to address that
[1:16] issue. And then the next, this is what
[1:18] fascinates me. You're going to see why.
[1:19] >> And also we have these six handwritten
[1:21] cards [music] of lessons you've learned
[1:23] from caring for the dying. We'll go into
[1:25] the full list but from everything you've
[1:26] experienced, do you think there is life
[1:28] after death?
[1:29] >> This is probably the most remarkable
[1:30] thing of all. So I think
[1:37] >> Here is a strange fact. Most of the
[1:39] people watching this right now, about
[1:41] 58% of you, aren't yet subscribed to
[1:43] this channel. Statistically, that is
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[1:59] production. So, thank you so much and I
[2:00] hope you enjoy this episode.
[2:04] >> [music]
[2:06] >> Dr. Christopher Kerr.
[2:08] You've spent three decades of your life
[2:12] experiencing something that most of us
[2:14] probably spend our lives trying to
[2:16] avoid.
[2:17] What is it you've done for the last
[2:18] three decades?
[2:20] >> I was trying to avoid it, too, but more
[2:22] by accident and I ended up
[2:25] becoming a hospice doctor.
[2:27] >> What does that mean?
[2:28] >> A hospice doctor cares for that
[2:30] individual who is no longer deemed
[2:32] treatable.
[2:33] >> So, you've spent 30 years caring for
[2:36] people that are going to die shortly.
[2:39] Yes.
[2:40] And you started interviewing them.
[2:42] >> [clears throat]
[2:43] >> Probably 1,500 at this point.
[2:45] >> Why did you start interviewing people
[2:47] that were about to die?
[2:48] >> Because their perspectives matter. I
[2:51] arrived to that hospice completely
[2:53] unprepared to be a doctor of the dying.
[2:56] Medical school prepares you really to to
[2:58] defeat death, not to care for those who
[3:00] are dying. But my colleagues,
[3:02] particularly in nursing,
[3:04] were much more tuned to what the actual
[3:07] patient was experiencing. What I've come
[3:09] to understand is what the patient
[3:10] perspective is the one that matters.
[3:13] And that when you start to see patients
[3:15] as people, you start to understand that
[3:18] they have these rich emotional and
[3:20] personal lives and that's what matters
[3:22] at the end of life.
[3:23] >> How much research have you done? Cuz
[3:25] I've got I think 15 research papers here
[3:27] that you've published.
[3:28] >> done a lot. And we do very important
[3:30] things. So, we rule out confusion
[3:32] states. We've you done studies on
[3:34] post-traumatic growth to see whether
[3:37] within these negative experience of
[3:38] dying was there actually positive gain.
[3:41] We've looked at the effect on children.
[3:43] >> When children die?
[3:44] >> Mhm.
[3:45] And we've looked at the effect of these
[3:47] things on bereavement. You know, those
[3:49] left behind, how that influenced their
[3:51] bereavement.
[3:52] >> And you've also done a lot of research
[3:54] on the visions people see as they're
[3:57] dying and the dreams they have in the
[3:59] days leading up to their dying.
[4:00] >> Yes, that's the focus. The vast majority
[4:02] of people, nearly 90% of people, start
[4:05] to have very intense dreams or visions
[4:07] and the overriding theme is that they're
[4:09] seeing people who they've loved and who
[4:12] they've lost. And very specifically,
[4:14] it's those that have loved them
[4:15] unconditionally, purely.
[4:18] And those that didn't aren't there.
[4:20] Dying is progressive sleep. Your sleep
[4:23] architecture changes, your sleep cycles
[4:25] changes. And
[4:28] evermore you start to have these kind of
[4:29] inner experiences. It makes sense,
[4:32] right? That as you're dying, you're
[4:33] going to be reflective. You're going to
[4:35] be introspective. And they usually
[4:37] become more prevalent towards the last
[4:40] kind of week or two of life. And what
[4:42] was very interesting in the The
[4:44] frequency of these events increases as
[4:46] people approach death. So, it's all been
[4:49] an attempt to really humanize the dying
[4:51] process. So, take it from a medical
[4:53] model, which looks at organ failure and
[4:56] management of disease, and instead,
[4:58] let's look instead what the patients
[5:00] actually experiencing towards the end of
[5:02] their life. And what's fascinating is
[5:05] when you measure
[5:06] what themes bring them the most comfort,
[5:09] it's seeing the deceased.
[5:11] >> So, if I'm passing away, the thing that
[5:14] brings me the most comfort is seeing my
[5:17] deceased relatives.
[5:18] >> Yes.
[5:19] >> And I've got a graph here which shows
[5:21] the dreams of the dead that were most
[5:23] comforting. I'll throw that up on the
[5:24] screen.
[5:25] >> Yeah. Yes, we measured on a scale what
[5:28] brought them the most comfort, and you
[5:31] can see it goes up between the living
[5:33] and seeing the dead.
[5:34] Um would it help to see a a video?
[5:37] >> Yeah.
[5:37] >> What happened was we videoed patients
[5:39] early because we knew that our audience,
[5:42] particularly medical audience, would
[5:43] have a view of what a dying patient was,
[5:46] that they were either compromised or
[5:47] feeble-minded. And so it became very
[5:50] important to capture them on film. So
[5:53] this is Paul. This is actually 3 weeks
[5:55] before his death.
[5:57] And he kind of covers all the bases. So
[6:00] very vivid these dreams.
[6:03] Very little is said between the dreamer
[6:05] and the person in the dream.
[6:07] What you'll notice in all these videos
[6:09] that's so striking is the absolute
[6:11] absence of fear.
[6:13] So these dreams never deny the fact that
[6:15] they're dying. They they almost
[6:17] transcended. And they really sometimes
[6:20] have trouble to find language for what
[6:22] they're seeing, but they know how their
[6:24] loved felt, which is they're kind of put
[6:26] back together.
[6:27] >> I've probably had 15 dreams about her
[6:30] maybe, somewhere in there.
[6:33] She always wear I I dream of color most
[6:35] like. And she always wears a beautiful
[6:38] light blue.
[6:39] It could be a suit, it could be a gown,
[6:41] it could be a dress.
[6:43] It's always light blue.
[6:45] And a couple of times she's gave me the
[6:47] little beauty pageant wave. And a couple
[6:49] times she sort of greet always with a
[6:51] smile. Doesn't Only one or twice I've
[6:54] ever heard her voice. But uh
[6:57] she only kind of lets me know that she's
[6:58] fine.
[6:59] >> So he's in the lead up to his death,
[7:01] he's having what, 15 dreams about his
[7:03] deceased wife.
[7:04] >> Yeah.
[7:05] >> What you make of that? Like what does
[7:06] that mean?
[7:08] >> Yeah. You Honestly, my view of this is
[7:10] changing. I would have told you before
[7:13] when I started doing it that this was um
[7:16] a rekindled memory.
[7:18] >> So you It was just a memory.
[7:19] >> Yeah. It's like looking at a picture.
[7:21] >> Yeah.
[7:21] >> Right. And uh recalling the imagery.
[7:24] There's a couple of features that stand
[7:26] out that suggest there's a lot more of
[7:27] than that, that there's almost this
[7:28] continued consciousness. And what one is
[7:32] the detail that's rekindled is
[7:34] remarkable. 95-year-old man, he lost his
[7:38] mother when he's five, and he talks
[7:40] about smelling her perfume and hearing
[7:42] her voice.
[7:43] The other is that often these
[7:45] interactions, and you're going to see
[7:47] this in other videos, there's
[7:48] communication.
[7:50] So, they're not they're not in still
[7:51] form. This again, not like looking at a
[7:54] picture.
[7:55] >> Do you believe his wife is still truly
[7:57] accessible?
[7:58] Or are you saying that the memory of her
[8:00] is accessible through his dreams? Cuz
[8:02] they're very different propositions.
[8:05] >> I don't know what this means. I don't
[8:07] know if this I I wouldn't be so bold as
[8:10] to say this speaks to an afterlife. What
[8:12] I am more convinced of is that those
[8:16] who have loved us are never gone.
[8:19] They're accessible to us.
[8:20] And what is fascinating to me is that
[8:24] at the end of life, when people are
[8:26] neurologically compromised, they're
[8:28] fading, they can't move, the remnant of
[8:32] function is still this core sense of
[8:35] being connected to loved.
[8:38] And that remains. It's like we enter the
[8:41] world and leave the world with
[8:43] remarkable symmetry. You know, you come
[8:45] into the world and the infant doesn't
[8:48] know language, undeveloped brain, but it
[8:51] knows its mother's love. It knows it
[8:54] feels connected and secured. And at the
[8:56] very end of life, it's kind of the same
[8:59] thing. They're diminished, they're less
[9:01] capable, but what they're feeling and
[9:04] sensing, even without language, is the
[9:07] same thing.
[9:08] >> Was that one particular
[9:10] video you got with a patient that was
[9:12] approaching their death that was most
[9:14] persuasive to you as it relates to
[9:16] believing that consciousness
[9:19] continues or that our loved ones aren't
[9:21] really ever
[9:23] gone?
[9:25] They are able to be summoned back into
[9:28] this world.
[9:29] >> Definitely the ones where people
[9:32] have injury or harm for having lived and
[9:36] they've struggled with that, often for
[9:38] decades.
[9:40] And no matter how much therapy, talk
[9:42] therapy, medication, they they they've
[9:44] never found peace, and they find it in
[9:46] the end in these experiences. So, an old
[9:49] veteran who suffers with survival death
[9:52] and PTSD, in the last late
[9:56] days of life,
[9:57] he he's brought back to those who died
[10:00] overseas, and he's comforted.
[10:02] And I think some of the most remarkable
[10:04] ones, of course, are the children
[10:06] um who do this so differently. But just
[10:09] the fact that there's so much innate
[10:11] ability within us to heal these harmed
[10:14] and broken pieces. And for children who
[10:17] do this in in ways that are absolutely
[10:20] in inspiring.
[10:21] They're you know, they're often not
[10:23] dramatic. They're very There's no great
[10:25] epiphany, no great reveal. These are
[10:27] moments of just having lived and
[10:29] mattered. They're sitting around a
[10:31] kitchen table. If you want, we can show
[10:34] Florence, and she's an example.
[10:36] She's lost her husband, and she's lost
[10:38] her daughter.
[10:40] And this is 5 days before her passing.
[10:42] >> Tell us about the dreams.
[10:44] >> But the other night, I saw right into a
[10:46] sleep.
[10:48] They were like sitting at kitchen table,
[10:51] laughing. I could see their faces.
[10:54] I could tell them four photos.
[10:57] We were laughing, we were talking, we
[11:00] were eating. And then they felt like
[11:02] they walked 12 years.
[11:05] And never existed.
[11:07] >> Because it was so real that it was he
[11:09] was there in the present.
[11:10] >> And 7 years since my daughter was gone.
[11:13] It was like we were always together,
[11:15] never separated.
[11:17] >> Yeah.
[11:18] How does it make you feel
[11:21] um about the prospect of dying? How does
[11:23] it change with you?
[11:25] >> I'm not
[11:26] >> When you see something like that, people
[11:28] might say, you know,
[11:30] because they are aware that they're
[11:32] going to pass away at some point.
[11:34] They've been given that that diagnosis
[11:36] that prognosis.
[11:38] Presumably, yeah.
[11:40] The end of their life, their family,
[11:42] these are the things that would be on
[11:43] their mind. And if they're on their
[11:44] minds, they'd be in their dreams.
[11:46] So, is it Is it the process of death
[11:48] that's provoking these kind of dreams or
[11:50] visions? Or is it just the case that,
[11:52] you know, you dream about what you think
[11:53] about? And obviously, these people are
[11:54] thinking about the end of their lives.
[11:56] >> Yeah, the only rebuttal to that is when
[12:00] you ask them these these sorts of
[12:02] questions,
[12:03] the thing that gets them most distressed
[12:05] is when you refer to them as dreams.
[12:08] Because these are unlike anything
[12:10] they've ever experienced. So, they're
[12:12] not dreams in the sense they're not
[12:13] metaphorical, they're not fantastical.
[12:15] They don't require interpretation. I've
[12:17] never had a patient say, "Hey, what do
[12:19] you think this means?"
[12:20] They're given the sense of knowing. And
[12:22] they'll often say, "I don't normally
[12:24] dream." Or "I don't recall my dream." Or
[12:26] "No, this was virtual. This was a
[12:27] happening."
[12:29] So, they have no doubt. When we ask them
[12:32] to scale it 0 to 10 on the degree of
[12:35] realism, it's always a 10.
[12:37] So, it feels like this actually
[12:39] happened. And those of them who are
[12:41] having these experiences in the wake
[12:44] state, you can watch them. They're
[12:45] looking right through. They're looking
[12:47] at the room. They're petting the dog
[12:48] that isn't there.
[12:50] >> Oh, so some of them have these visions
[12:51] >> 50% are occurring when they're awake.
[12:53] Yeah.
[12:55] >> Even if it's quite some time before they
[12:57] pass away?
[12:58] >> No, it's usually measurable within
[13:00] weeks. A couple weeks. And it picks up
[13:02] as as you get closer to death.
[13:04] >> And when it gets closer to death, how do
[13:06] these visions change or evolve?
[13:08] >> Become more immersive.
[13:09] So, again, dying is progressive sleep.
[13:12] So, they're living more in this other
[13:14] state where they're deeper and deeper
[13:16] sleep. So, they spend more time there.
[13:19] And they'll often wake up, it's
[13:20] interesting, and wish they were going
[13:23] back into that other state. Often times,
[13:26] they're just warmed by reunion of what
[13:29] they were experiencing.
[13:31] And time and distance go away.
[13:33] So, they're decades have moved and they
[13:35] were calling very vivid memories of a
[13:38] dog they lost in childhood, for example.
[13:41] >> So, do you think this is a biological,
[13:43] physiological thing in that brain, a
[13:45] bunch of chemicals that are
[13:47] slushing around, or do you think it is
[13:50] spiritual?
[13:51] >> I'm also a PhD in neurobiologist been
[13:54] 5, 6 years studying brain. So, I I I
[13:58] I'm drawn to that. No one knows. And I
[14:02] I'm good with that. I I think you could
[14:05] you point parts of the brain here
[14:07] and say, you know, love lives in the
[14:09] certain areas, certain
[14:11] neurotransmitters,
[14:12] you know, are correlated with happiness.
[14:15] You can take all the pieces and you
[14:17] can't make the whole.
[14:18] I can't show you where love is.
[14:21] I can't recreate love in a dish. And I
[14:24] can't create this.
[14:26] I see it really goes beyond
[14:29] brain function into something else.
[14:31] >> So, you think it is spiritual then?
[14:33] >> I do, very much. Yeah.
[14:35] >> Do you believe there is a soul?
[14:36] >> Yes.
[14:37] >> And so, you would
[14:39] posit, I guess, that lives beyond the
[14:40] physiology of the human body and brain.
[14:42] >> Yes.
[14:44] >> Half of Americans say a dead relative
[14:46] has visited them.
[14:48] >> Mhm.
[14:50] >> And the answer here that has that 53% of
[14:52] votes is
[14:54] have you ever felt a dead family member
[14:55] visit you in a dream or in any other
[14:58] form? 53% of people say they have.
[15:01] >> Mhm.
[15:01] >> 34% say in the past year they felt the
[15:03] presence of a dead family member.
[15:06] And 28% say in the past year they've
[15:08] told dead family members about events in
[15:10] their life.
[15:11] >> Mhm.
[15:11] >> Yeah, we remain connected.
[15:13] >> 15% say in the past year they've had a
[15:15] dead family member communicate with
[15:17] them.
[15:17] >> Mhm.
[15:18] >> All the data has always suggested that
[15:20] at least in this country there's a
[15:22] higher degree of spiritual orientation
[15:26] than you would expect. But that's been
[15:28] always been the case.
[15:29] >> When people are in their last days, do
[15:32] they become more religious and more
[15:33] spiritual?
[15:34] >> Yes. We know it because of of what they
[15:38] focus on. They tend to think about these
[15:40] big things and again, they tend to be
[15:42] about relationships. They ask these
[15:45] better questions. We've looked at this
[15:47] question of religion and we've have not
[15:49] found that being having a religious
[15:52] belief changes how you experience these
[15:54] end of life events. It just doesn't seem
[15:57] to matter.
[15:58] >> And most dying patients report end of
[16:00] life dreams and visions. The stats here
[16:02] show that 80% of health care
[16:04] professionals have witnessed or told
[16:06] been told of one.
[16:07] This I didn't realize it was so many
[16:09] people that are having these end of life
[16:11] dreams and visions. I didn't realize it
[16:12] was 80%.
[16:14] And and you know, again, we people might
[16:15] think this is because of delirium,
[16:17] because of their illness.
[16:18] >> No, it's it's a good question and that's
[16:20] what our studies did that was smart is
[16:22] we sorted out the patients who were
[16:24] delirious.
[16:25] So, we screened them every day before
[16:27] they did a questionnaire. Again, these
[16:28] are approved by a university, so you
[16:30] have to be witnessed, you have to have
[16:31] consent, you have to be cognitively
[16:33] intact. So, before they did our
[16:35] questionnaire every day, they had to get
[16:37] a screen for delirium.
[16:38] And these events don't resemble
[16:41] delirium. Delirium is very disorganized
[16:44] and the biggest difference is most
[16:45] people are left frightened or distressed
[16:47] by delirium. These events are recalled
[16:49] with acuity, they're based on real
[16:51] happenings, and they're left with a
[16:53] feeling of comfort, not distress or
[16:55] fear.
[16:56] >> Acuity.
[16:57] >> Acuity, there's sharpness.
[16:58] >> What are the other sort of fundamental
[17:00] misunderstandings people have about
[17:02] death that you've spent your career
[17:04] trying to confront and reverse?
[17:07] >> Oh, there are many. Dying is a process,
[17:10] death is a moment. It changes over time.
[17:13] The big myths are that pain is expected
[17:16] or anticipated and that's actually not
[17:18] true. Pain isn't, and the pain that is
[17:21] there can be resolved. The other
[17:23] misconceptions around eating and
[17:25] drinking, people stop eating and
[17:27] drinking. It doesn't hurt. They're not
[17:29] eating and drinking because they're
[17:31] they're dying. Something happens in
[17:33] nature that we don't die in want. So, it
[17:35] just kind of dwindles. And dying is
[17:38] really like um a dimming of the shades.
[17:40] It's gradual. You start to lose
[17:43] function, do less. If you have the flu,
[17:46] you know to go to bed. It just doesn't
[17:48] pay to do. Sleep is preferred, and most
[17:51] people die in sleep. The The key
[17:55] is to die, you have to be able to sleep
[17:57] well. But to sleep well, you have to be
[17:58] comfortable.
[17:59] And what people tend to think is to be
[18:02] comfortable and mean you need to be
[18:03] physically comfortable, but you also
[18:05] need to be psychologically at peace,
[18:07] existentially at peace.
[18:09] So, the holy grail for us, the vital
[18:11] sign that matters for us is comfortable
[18:13] sleep because you can't sleep if you're
[18:15] in discomfort, and you can't die if you
[18:18] can't sleep.
[18:19] >> There's that famous study by Bronnie
[18:21] Ware, who I think was a palliative nurse
[18:23] in Australia, who interviewed people on
[18:25] their last days and asked them about
[18:27] their regrets.
[18:28] >> Hm.
[18:28] >> Have you ever done any research like
[18:30] that to understand
[18:31] >> and I really have trouble with the
[18:32] study.
[18:33] >> Really?
[18:33] >> Yeah. First of all, it wasn't empirical,
[18:35] right? It was It was conver- based off
[18:37] of conversations.
[18:38] And
[18:40] that's not my experience. I don't see
[18:42] people bringing up regret towards the
[18:44] end of their life. Now, if you ask
[18:46] people
[18:47] what if they had regrets, I'm sure they
[18:49] would give you an answer.
[18:51] It's like if I asked you, "What's your
[18:52] favorite color?" You have an answer, but
[18:55] you don't go around thinking, "Oh, this
[18:57] is my favorite color."
[18:58] >> Sure.
[18:59] >> So, regrets, and this shows in our
[19:01] quantifiable study, don't come to the
[19:03] surface, actually.
[19:05] A lot of that gets let go of. I can
[19:07] honestly say, I've done this for nearly
[19:09] 30 years, and that's It's what I hear.
[19:12] >> So, let's um take a look at this cuz I
[19:14] think this is quite important. And I,
[19:18] funnily enough, had this conversation
[19:20] with my fiance yesterday when we were
[19:21] talking about what actually matters in
[19:23] life. So, here we have 11 things that
[19:27] medical students say they think will
[19:31] matter to a dying patient at the end of
[19:33] their life.
[19:34] And then, you're going to tell me what
[19:36] actually mattered when you did an
[19:38] empirical peer-reviewed study and asking
[19:41] patients with days to live what actually
[19:43] mattered to them.
[19:44] >> Well, the first one the hospice patient
[19:46] cares about
[19:48] is not being a burden.
[19:50] They become selfless.
[19:52] They don't want to tax their family.
[19:53] They don't want their illness to
[19:55] compromise their life. They want to
[19:57] spend time with them.
[19:59] But they don't want to to to interfere
[20:01] with their living. You would think as
[20:04] people are close nearing the end of
[20:05] their life, they would become more and
[20:07] more self-focused and they become
[20:09] other-focused.
[20:11] And what's really interesting is
[20:12] actually this aligns well with that
[20:13] science of happiness work, right? Which
[20:15] says that the happier people derive
[20:18] meaning from doing for others rather
[20:20] than doing for self.
[20:21] These better features kind of come to
[20:23] life at the end.
[20:24] >> If I've got a relative who's passing
[20:26] away, if this is the thing they care
[20:27] about most, not being a burden, is there
[20:30] something I can do as the loved one or
[20:32] the relative to ease this concern for
[20:35] them?
[20:37] >> I think it's
[20:38] aligning your wishes with their hope,
[20:41] which is your wish is you actually want
[20:43] to be a presence.
[20:44] >> And you And you're letting them know
[20:45] that you're not a burden.
[20:46] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[20:46] >> They're not a burden.
[20:47] >> Okay. Number two.
[20:50] They want time.
[20:51] >> Okay, so they want to be around their
[20:52] friends and family. That's what they
[20:54] care about second.
[20:55] >> fundamental here is this relationships,
[20:57] right? That's what it's about.
[21:00] >> And the medical students thought it
[21:01] would be
[21:02] >> feeling that life was meaningful.
[21:04] >> Again, this
[21:04] >> I think this is wonderful. This is one
[21:06] that fascinates me the most. So, you're
[21:07] in your 20s
[21:09] and you're on this journey of
[21:11] development and and
[21:13] that you've had this impact of some
[21:15] sort.
[21:17] That door shut.
[21:18] And they're not living in the rearview
[21:20] mirror and they're not wondering whether
[21:22] they had have meaning or not.
[21:24] >> This is very relevant cuz me and my
[21:25] fiance were in the car the other day and
[21:27] we was yesterday and we were talking
[21:28] about this and she turned to me and said
[21:30] like what's your why?
[21:31] And having sat here on this podcast with
[21:33] a guest a couple of weeks ago who asked
[21:35] me to close my eyes and imagined it was
[21:37] the last day of my life. The only thing
[21:38] that mattered in that moment was who was
[21:41] around my bed and what they thought of
[21:44] me and if were they safe and secure.
[21:48] And it didn't dawn on me in that moment
[21:50] where I visualized being on my deathbed,
[21:51] my legacy or the impact I'd had or the
[21:53] achievements I'd accomplished. It's made
[21:55] me really reconsider what my why is.
[21:59] Cuz really if in the last moments of my
[22:01] life what I'm concerned about is who
[22:02] stood there
[22:03] and what they think of me.
[22:06] And when I say what they think of me,
[22:07] it's like do my kids think dad was a
[22:09] good man and did he leave us with
[22:12] lessons and principles that we so we can
[22:14] live a good life, too.
[22:16] That seems to be most important. So, it
[22:18] was just interesting cuz we go through
[22:19] life and we read Instagram and LinkedIn
[22:21] and it tells us like what's your why,
[22:22] what's your legacy, what impact you want
[22:24] to have on the world, what's your
[22:24] purpose, what's your passion and these
[22:26] are all things that are very
[22:27] self-focused. But actually it appears to
[22:29] me as you've described that actually in
[22:31] those moments it's about others.
[22:33] >> Yeah, I mean and there's good work on
[22:35] this, right? Is is the brain's ability
[22:37] to predict what makes us happy is
[22:40] horribly wrong.
[22:41] What we predict makes us happy is never
[22:43] sustainable.
[22:46] Right? And then what's important is to
[22:48] kind of de-want what matters.
[22:50] >> De-want what matters?
[22:51] >> Yeah, because
[22:53] well we're on this treadmill of things
[22:55] that we think are going to make us
[22:56] happy.
[22:57] >> Job promotion.
[22:58] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[22:59] >> Come on.
[22:59] >> And they're not sustainable things and
[23:01] that's proven over and over and over and
[23:03] over again. Belonging, connection,
[23:06] meaning, those those are the things that
[23:09] I mean, we're fundamentally meant to
[23:11] belong to one another. If you think of
[23:14] the best version of yourself,
[23:16] it was never achieving something. It was
[23:18] being a son, it was being a brother, it
[23:20] was being a friend, it was being a
[23:21] fiance or boyfriend, whatever. It's
[23:24] those things that make us important. And
[23:29] ultimately, what you find out of this
[23:30] research is the enormous value of
[23:33] interdependency.
[23:35] And that's the whole deal, whether it's
[23:38] in the physical world, the natural
[23:40] world, the ecosystems, but as humans,
[23:44] we're we're
[23:46] meant to be inter- interdependent, and
[23:48] that's most clear in moments of
[23:50] vulnerability.
[23:52] So, you pose yourself the question, kind
[23:53] of last day stuff, you're immediately
[23:55] vulnerable.
[23:56] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[23:57] >> Right? And what you did is you pulled in
[23:59] all these other people that matter to
[24:01] you. Yeah. Because we're defined
[24:04] only by our relationships. That's the
[24:07] only surviving thing, not by these other
[24:10] things that seem,
[24:12] in a transient sense, important. And
[24:15] that bears this out. And what's
[24:17] beautiful is their concern shifts from
[24:19] self, and I mean, hope changes in that
[24:21] way, right? It's hope for cure, then
[24:23] just hope for others. It's just this
[24:25] really wonderful story about who we are.
[24:28] >> It's interesting cuz the things you'll
[24:30] say, a lot lot of people will sort of
[24:31] intellectually understand and believe
[24:33] that it's about the relationships in
[24:35] these last moments, but therefore, it's
[24:36] about relationships through our life.
[24:38] But then when you look at how we
[24:39] allocate our time on a weekly monthly
[24:40] basis,
[24:41] >> Proportionate.
[24:42] >> There's a disconnect.
[24:43] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[24:44] >> Because we're we're allocating our time
[24:46] towards accomplishment or achievement or
[24:47] money or promotions or cars, whatever,
[24:49] >> Yeah.
[24:50] >> but then in the final hour,
[24:52] it's all about something else. And if I
[24:53] even reviewed the allocation of my time
[24:55] this week and day, I'd be like, wow.
[24:57] >> Yeah.
[24:58] Well, I mean, dying is the death is this
[25:01] unbelievably truthful place.
[25:04] Right? Pretense goes away. All the
[25:06] superficiality goes away. You're You're
[25:09] stripped to the bare bare bones of who
[25:12] you are. And what you end up finding is
[25:14] that we're more alike than unlike, and
[25:16] there's a universality to being human,
[25:19] >> [snorts]
[25:19] >> and it involves being connected to one
[25:21] another. You know, our struggle is to
[25:24] remain humane, and we go through this
[25:27] together, not alone. And that's Again,
[25:30] there's a symmetry. You see at the
[25:31] beginning of life, and you see it at the
[25:33] end of life.
[25:35] Politics falls away.
[25:38] >> I sure as hell hope so. And this is
[25:40] interesting cuz so many people spend
[25:42] their lives getting agitated You see The
[25:44] reason I say that is cuz you said we're
[25:45] more like than we believe.
[25:47] >> Oh, absolutely.
[25:48] >> And so, when you're bare bones, you're
[25:50] not really thinking about the left, the
[25:52] right, this politics, this political
[25:53] issue.
[25:54] >> What you end up
[25:56] um when people are are most vulnerable,
[25:59] you you you see beauty. You see love.
[26:02] You see tenderness. You see
[26:03] vulnerability. There are some awful
[26:05] humans that have lived a bad life, but
[26:09] in the end, when you see them in a more
[26:11] vulnerable state, I I I I think you see
[26:13] their better nature. You see tenderness.
[26:16] You see expressions of love. There's a
[26:18] lot of pretense that people have to work
[26:20] through, personas that they present, and
[26:23] illness kind of strips you of that. It's
[26:25] this great leveling effect to be sick.
[26:29] That what matters to you 2 weeks earlier
[26:31] doesn't matter to you now.
[26:33] >> Okay, so medical students thought the
[26:36] third would be pain symptom management,
[26:38] and according to your hospice patients,
[26:40] >> Yep.
[26:40] >> they agree.
[26:41] >> one right.
[26:41] >> And what does that mean? That's just
[26:43] their concern is not being in pain.
[26:44] >> unfortunately, there's not a lot of
[26:46] conversation about what to expect. We
[26:48] just completed a study on this. If you
[26:50] were told you had a terminal disease, I
[26:52] guarantee one of your first overwhelming
[26:55] thoughts is a suffering.
[26:57] >> Yeah.
[26:57] >> And unfortunately,
[26:59] it's damning how little conversations
[27:02] there are to address that issue in terms
[27:04] of what to expect, when to expect it,
[27:06] what you're going to feel, and reassure
[27:08] people. And these honest conversations
[27:11] actually don't take away hope, they
[27:13] restore agency.
[27:14] >> So, what is the misunderstanding?
[27:15] >> Oh my gosh, that it's far worse than
[27:18] people think, that there isn't a pain,
[27:20] rarely a pain we can't manage.
[27:22] >> It's less painful than people think.
[27:24] >> by a mile. Yeah.
[27:26] That's probably the the biggest myth.
[27:29] >> About death and dying?
[27:30] >> 100%. And honestly, it's compounded by
[27:33] the fact that doctors don't have these
[27:35] discussions.
[27:37] >> Okay. So, number four in terms of what
[27:39] hospice patients say matters most to
[27:41] them?
[27:42] >> Peace with God.
[27:43] >> Being at peace with God. Hmm. And
[27:45] presumably just the religious ones,
[27:47] right?
[27:48] >> I know, it's peace with a belief
[27:51] of something larger. I've asked patients
[27:53] this, and they'll say what I would say
[27:56] is that I don't know. It's an
[27:57] existential feeling that doesn't
[28:00] necessarily have to be attributed to a
[28:01] belief or a god.
[28:03] >> Now, is it because they're concerned
[28:04] they're going to go to hell or that
[28:05] they're going to go to they don't know?
[28:06] >> don't hear that. I'm sure there was a
[28:09] time when judgment the role judgment
[28:12] played in, but just to be at peace.
[28:14] >> What does that mean?
[28:15] >> existentially.
[28:16] >> And is there a way to become at peace
[28:18] that that patients will ask for?
[28:21] >> I don't hear, but I imagine it's to ask
[28:23] for forgiveness in part.
[28:26] >> And the medical students you interviewed
[28:28] thought number four would be being
[28:30] mentally aware.
[28:31] >> Yes, and that does come up, right? So,
[28:33] here we are.
[28:34] >> That's number five.
[28:35] >> Yes. In what hospice Okay.
[28:36] >> And then the next is is dying at home.
[28:40] And this is tragic because 80% of
[28:43] Americans want to die at home, and about
[28:45] 30% do.
[28:47] >> Why is that?
[28:48] >> It's really reflective of of a mostly
[28:51] our
[28:52] medicalization of dying. As a country we
[28:56] under invest in care for at home so that
[28:59] people end up having to go into the
[29:01] hospital and the death that they fear is
[29:03] the one they get. The more tertiary or
[29:05] advanced a hospital is the more
[29:07] aggressive treatment there is. It's part
[29:09] of the death defying approach of
[29:11] medicine. There's always something you
[29:13] can do. They die in units and they die
[29:16] in those sort of and the irony is the
[29:18] more they get it actually hasn't been
[29:21] shown to enhance life and what they get.
[29:24] The more care more aggressive care they
[29:25] get when they're dying.
[29:27] >> So you're saying that we we kind of drag
[29:29] it out a bit unnecessarily sometimes.
[29:31] >> I think medicine does its best to defy
[29:33] death and unfortunately it it often
[29:36] denies it even when it's obvious when
[29:38] things have become futile.
[29:40] And if medicine can't appreciate death
[29:43] when it's objectively there, they're
[29:45] certainly not going to pay attention to
[29:47] the experience of the dying.
[29:50] And I think it's complicated but we've
[29:52] lost our way with dying. You know, dying
[29:54] used to be in the home and in the
[29:56] community when connection to our church
[29:58] and in the last 100 years it's become
[30:00] institutionalized.
[30:02] So death is now like a rumor. You know,
[30:05] it's something that happens somewhere
[30:07] down the line probably to somebody else
[30:09] but it's not proximate to us like it
[30:11] used to be. So you take all these
[30:14] factors together, the fact that we've
[30:15] institutionalized dying, the fact that
[30:18] medicine's become you know, technically
[30:20] focused and no longer artful. We don't
[30:23] it's not okay to be there for presence.
[30:25] I mean people can't die of old age
[30:26] anymore. You know, you you got to have
[30:28] about five diagnoses. So it's lost its
[30:31] grace. It's lost its humanity.
[30:34] >> So if someone knows they're going to
[30:35] die, you would recommend they
[30:37] usually didn't come to a hospice and
[30:39] they
[30:40] >> No, I get get into a hospice so you can
[30:42] die at home.
[30:43] >> Oh, hospice is at home.
[30:44] is more likely to align your wish to an
[30:47] outcome. Hospice is
[30:49] developed out of our communities as as
[30:52] an answer, as a rebuttal to the way
[30:55] dying were traditionally treated in a
[30:57] hospital. Yes, so what is it about dying
[31:00] in a hospital that is
[31:02] worse than dying at home? I don't know
[31:04] where to begin. What matters to the
[31:06] dying patient
[31:08] is familiarity, to be connected, to be
[31:13] where they live,
[31:15] the things that make them comfortable,
[31:17] the people they love. They don't want to
[31:19] be woken in the night, they don't want
[31:20] to be poked, they don't want IVs, they
[31:22] don't want another scan. It goes down to
[31:24] what will make you comfortable. What
[31:26] matters to you in the end? And being at
[31:29] home with your people is what matters to
[31:31] people.
[31:31] >> Makes sense. So number seven,
[31:34] having care directives followed. What
[31:37] does that mean?
[31:38] >> And making sure that what you want to
[31:40] happen is going to happen.
[31:42] >> Okay.
[31:43] >> Yeah. And this one is this is
[31:44] interesting, I think, resolving
[31:46] conflicts.
[31:47] >> So medical students who are asked about
[31:50] what matters most to those that are
[31:51] dying,
[31:52] they ranked the seventh thing that would
[31:54] matter as resolving conflicts.
[31:56] >> And what's interesting is these two
[31:58] writers
[31:59] was life meaningful and resolving
[32:01] conflicts. And the dying patients kind
[32:03] of all good.
[32:05] They don't want to be a They're not a
[32:07] problem to be solved.
[32:08] >> That's interesting You're right, that is
[32:09] the most interesting takeaway so far is
[32:12] living people think the dying will be
[32:14] really concerned with legacy and what
[32:16] they accomplished and did they have any
[32:18] beef with anybody, but dying patients
[32:20] >> And that's why I have trouble with that
[32:21] regret literature, okay, because that's
[32:23] not what they're saying. They're not
[32:25] focused really on the negative aspects
[32:28] of having lived, right? They're trying
[32:30] to preserve what makes them them and
[32:32] what makes them them is their family.
[32:35] And being in their home and being at
[32:37] peace with their God.
[32:39] >> I mean, that speaks to what we should be
[32:41] thinking about in our lives day-to-day
[32:42] to some degree.
[32:43] >> Well, and again, there's a bridge
[32:44] between these two things. It's not that
[32:46] actually The idea that this changes in
[32:49] death actually isn't all that true.
[32:51] I think we're aware of it in dying. Dr.
[32:54] Santos Yell does this wonderful work on
[32:56] happiness. If you go upstream and you do
[32:58] good you do that that her sort of work
[33:01] on happiness, you reveal a lot of these
[33:03] same truths.
[33:04] >> Well, we also live in a commercialized
[33:06] world where
[33:08] we're exposed to marketing and we're
[33:10] told what matters every day when we turn
[33:11] on the TV or open our phones.
[33:13] >> Mhm.
[33:13] >> And we're told that the Louis Vuitton
[33:15] bag matters. Where we clap when someone
[33:17] gets the promotion. So, there is an
[33:19] element of sort of socialization that
[33:21] orientates our values towards being more
[33:22] materialistic and
[33:24] I guess shallow to some degree.
[33:26] >> Those things are transient and
[33:27] non-sustaining. And one of the things
[33:29] that comes out of this happiness work is
[33:31] the the importance of savoring.
[33:34] And savoring things of worth like our
[33:36] relationships.
[33:37] >> Are there any people that were days from
[33:39] their own passing that were truly
[33:41] unhappy
[33:42] because of the way that they'd lived
[33:43] their lives?
[33:44] >> Yeah, you die how you live, right? You
[33:46] can't reinvent it. It's not rainbows and
[33:48] flowers. I've certainly seen that and
[33:51] I've written about them and they're
[33:54] people who had done wrong and they were
[33:56] fearful of dying.
[33:58] >> Fearful of what?
[33:59] >> Well, in in several cases, they'd been
[34:01] raised Catholic and they were worried
[34:03] about judgment. And the one case was
[34:06] actually a police officer. So, he
[34:08] thought that he cuz he'd been
[34:10] raised with confession that he had to
[34:12] tell everybody all the horrible things
[34:14] he did wrong and it was kind of
[34:15] interesting. We had a reporter from the
[34:17] New York Times and she got an earful. He
[34:20] just had to be cathartic and say
[34:21] everything. He's trying to unleash his
[34:23] sins. But, it's very rare.
[34:25] >> In that case, you've got a police
[34:27] officer unleashing their sins.
[34:28] >> Mhm.
[34:29] >> Could that not
[34:30] result in legal consequences if they say
[34:32] things that
[34:34] >> Yeah, you think so because he talked
[34:37] about beating up witnesses and things
[34:39] like that. I never thought of that, but
[34:40] it's certainly true.
[34:41] >> And nothing was done about that?
[34:42] >> No. And
[34:43] what was interesting is we had a
[34:46] criminal, like a guy who'd spent more
[34:48] time in his in prison than out at the
[34:50] same time. And actually he's on film.
[34:53] And he had regrets, true, but they got
[34:55] addressed at the end.
[34:56] >> What do you mean?
[34:57] >> Well, it's one of the most beautiful
[34:58] things. So, about 12% of our patients
[35:01] report dreams that are distressing or
[35:05] uncomfortable. They're not all
[35:07] comfortable. Again, it's not surprising.
[35:09] You're going to die the way you lived.
[35:11] And And what we got wrong was those are
[35:13] sometimes the most transformational.
[35:15] Those are the ones where they find
[35:17] healing.
[35:17] >> He had a dream about some of the bad
[35:19] things he'd done?
[35:20] >> Oh, yeah.
[35:20] >> And that
[35:22] >> caused the transformation. You
[35:24] Dwayne
[35:25] >> And he'd commit crimes in his life?
[35:27] >> Oh, yeah.
[35:27] >> What kind of crimes?
[35:28] >> Two attempted murders.
[35:30] A two murders, sorry, but both were
[35:31] self-defense on the street. Somebody
[35:33] were trying to rob them, sort of thing.
[35:34] He lived on the streets most of his
[35:36] life.
[35:37] But he never Again, he never reckoned
[35:40] with the things he had done wrong. And
[35:43] this is his reckoning.
[35:44] >> And how
[35:45] many days was this before he passed
[35:47] away?
[35:48] >> 12.
[35:48] >> 12 days?
[35:49] >> My dreams, man.
[35:51] You know, my nightmares.
[35:54] I don't like them. I think it's because
[35:57] my my past is coming back to me.
[36:00] >> Mhm.
[36:01] >> You know,
[36:02] from doing wrong. Because I'm not going
[36:05] to say I'm a perfect guy when I was out
[36:08] there. Because I was living right in the
[36:10] streets, you know, doing wrong to
[36:12] individuals. And now they know my
[36:14] symptoms.
[36:16] They know I'm sick. So, now they want to
[36:18] try to hurt me.
[36:19] You know, it was like they were jerking
[36:22] a knife.
[36:23] You know,
[36:24] trying to cut
[36:26] >> Yeah.
[36:26] >> cut out, you know,
[36:28] my neck
[36:29] >> Mhm.
[36:29] >> where my cancer was at.
[36:31] >> Right.
[36:32] >> Stop. Stop trying to fight, you know.
[36:33] I'm sorry. I'm sorry, you know. Trying
[36:35] to fight
[36:37] this guy off from from hurting him. It
[36:39] scared me.
[36:40] I'm not a bad individual, man.
[36:42] A lot of cross
[36:44] a lot of people in my life.
[36:46] >> Mhm.
[36:47] >> You know, and I need help.
[36:49] I need help. You know,
[36:52] I don't I don't want to live my life
[36:55] >> Mhm.
[36:57] >> being
[36:59] I don't live in society walking
[37:00] >> [laughter]
[37:01] >> having to look over my back, man. I just
[37:03] want people to forgive me.
[37:05] And please
[37:07] know that I was sick
[37:08] >> Mhm.
[37:09] >> at the time when I was doing
[37:12] certain things that I was hurting them
[37:15] and their families.
[37:16] You know, that's all I want.
[37:18] >> Mhm.
[37:19] >> I don't want I don't want them to look
[37:21] at me as a bad individual because I'm
[37:23] not.
[37:24] >> Mhm.
[37:24] >> You know, I need help.
[37:27] >> What ends up happening is he can't
[37:28] sleep. And again, going back to this
[37:30] idea that it's very hard to die if you
[37:31] can't sleep.
[37:33] He ends up waking up and he asks to see
[37:35] his daughter.
[37:37] And
[37:38] she comes on the film.
[37:40] And what she describes is for the first
[37:42] time in her life, he holds her for
[37:45] minutes and says how much he loves her
[37:47] and that he's sorry for what he had
[37:49] done.
[37:50] So, this negative experience that was
[37:51] happening when his eyes closed brought
[37:54] this reckoning and this ask for
[37:55] forgiveness.
[37:57] Which, of course, she gave.
[37:59] >> And what do you make of that? Like
[38:01] again, I'm asking you this the same
[38:02] question I asked you earlier. It's like,
[38:03] what do you think is happening there? Is
[38:04] that a spiritual thing? Is that just
[38:06] him, you know, approaching the end of
[38:08] his life and feeling remorseful? So,
[38:10] he's having this dream.
[38:11] >> didn't have conscious control of this. I
[38:13] don't believe that for a second. This
[38:15] was happening when his eyes were closed.
[38:17] I think that he was carrying at a very
[38:20] deep level. He knew the wrongs that he
[38:23] had done.
[38:24] And this something was forcing him to
[38:28] find peace.
[38:29] And it did.
[38:31] >> Something.
[38:32] >> Something. Yeah, I think truth. I think
[38:35] somewhere in him he couldn't joke and
[38:37] contrive around it. Dying brings brought
[38:40] this to a surface and he needed to find
[38:43] peace.
[38:45] And it was wonderful for her. Changed
[38:47] her
[38:48] completely. And what ends up happening
[38:50] was she ends up spending every night
[38:52] with him.
[38:53] Uh and he ends up passing comfortably.
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[41:07] So, back to our board of things that
[41:09] actually mattered. We're on number
[41:10] seven.
[41:11] >> Number eight.
[41:13] Feeling that life was meaningful.
[41:15] >> So, just to
[41:16] zoom out once again on this. Were they
[41:18] given 11 options, or were they given
[41:20] lots of options?
[41:21] >> Lots of options.
[41:21] >> Okay. And these are the 11 that they
[41:22] actually picked. Okay. So, number eight
[41:24] is they
[41:25] cared that life was meaningful. But this
[41:27] is particularly low
[41:28] relative to the others.
[41:31] >> And so is this one.
[41:33] >> Living as long as possible.
[41:34] >> Mhm. And you might know what? I've never
[41:37] heard a dying patient say, "I want to
[41:39] live as long as possible."
[41:41] What they want to do is live as well as
[41:44] they can as long as they can.
[41:46] But unless you've been sick, that's not
[41:49] the goal.
[41:53] Which is antithetical to way
[41:55] medical world looks at patients, right?
[41:57] It's that we we keep going at all costs.
[42:00] >> I mean, this is stats that I was reading
[42:01] here about how many years people spend
[42:04] sick on average.
[42:05] I think it it was in the United States,
[42:07] if I have the stats right. Yeah, it says
[42:09] up to sort of 11 years of our lives are
[42:11] lived in poor health.
[42:13] >> Mhm.
[42:14] >> So, although our health span is, you
[42:16] know, in the Western Pacific 68 years or
[42:18] in Europe 66 years, we spend about a
[42:21] decade in poor health.
[42:23] >> Yeah.
[42:24] >> And actually, what you were saying to me
[42:25] is that people care more about their
[42:26] health span, how many years of good
[42:28] health they have versus
[42:30] their lifespan, which is just how many
[42:32] years they're alive.
[42:33] >> I think that's a perspective that's very
[42:34] hard to understand in health.
[42:37] But it's hard work being sick, you know,
[42:39] and it's hard on those you love, so it
[42:41] makes sense to me.
[42:43] >> What about this um obviously a big
[42:44] subject at the moment is this longevity
[42:46] movement, people wanting to extend life
[42:48] and live forever and all these kinds of
[42:49] things. What is your perspective of
[42:51] seeing of interviewing thousands of
[42:52] people that are dying, how has it shaped
[42:55] your perspective on longevity?
[42:57] >> I think there's a risk of some illusion.
[43:00] There was an article in Science
[43:01] recently, 55% of lifespan is determined
[43:04] by genetics.
[43:06] And it doesn't leave you immune from
[43:09] circumstances of disease and whatnot. I
[43:11] worry a lot
[43:13] of the lack of evidence around some of
[43:16] the efforts.
[43:17] And I think the focus really needs to be
[43:19] on living well. And if you look at the
[43:22] blue zone folks,
[43:25] I mean,
[43:26] that little lady in Japan or Italy isn't
[43:29] waking up from a cold plunge and
[43:31] measuring out creatine.
[43:33] She's just living well. They move, they
[43:36] eat more plants, they're highly social,
[43:39] they take time to downshift through
[43:41] prayer, meditation, would have music,
[43:43] whatever.
[43:44] >> When you think about all the people
[43:46] you've met who were days from their
[43:48] death, are there some who were more at
[43:51] peace with it because they had
[43:52] accomplished more?
[43:54] Like what what is what is the
[43:56] correlatory in terms of those that were
[43:58] most at peace with leaving the this
[44:00] planet?
[44:01] >> The love given and received. That's the
[44:04] only thing that
[44:05] matters. I I I've seen people who have
[44:08] led remarkably simple lives,
[44:11] but they were pure and in the love that
[44:14] they were able to experience.
[44:16] >> And so they were happier to leave.
[44:17] >> Oh, yeah. You want to live in a way that
[44:20] that you can die well and and and that
[44:23] means loving well.
[44:24] >> And have you experienced the opposite
[44:26] where someone had nobody there?
[44:28] >> Oh, [gasps]
[44:29] um
[44:30] I've had some very bad experiences,
[44:32] people who were One of them I've written
[44:35] about who was taken as a child into a
[44:38] home situation that was really for kids
[44:41] with a lot of complexity and had never
[44:44] seen or experienced love and the
[44:47] emptiness she felt. I never forget what
[44:49] she said to me. She was watching
[44:50] somebody kiss on a screen and she goes,
[44:52] "You know, I look at that. I've never
[44:53] understood that."
[44:55] And her dying what was empty.
[44:58] Um
[45:00] and regretful.
[45:01] >> What do you mean? Take me into the
[45:02] nothingness.
[45:03] >> Just that she never She knew she never
[45:05] was loved. She She was denied love,
[45:07] denied love by parents.
[45:09] She was misused by men. So what she knew
[45:12] of love hurt her.
[45:14] And she was aware enough
[45:16] uh to know that.
[45:18] >> And there was no one there when she
[45:19] passed away?
[45:20] >> No.
[45:22] No.
[45:24] It's interesting though.
[45:26] She had one very interesting dream. She
[45:29] had a man who had wanted to marry her,
[45:33] but she had been so taken advantage of
[45:36] that she was doubtful and
[45:39] as soon as he asked her, she moved out
[45:41] of their apartment.
[45:43] And
[45:44] as a way to self-protect.
[45:46] >> Yeah.
[45:46] >> At the end of her life, he came to her
[45:49] and told her
[45:50] that he really did love her.
[45:52] So she was she was shown some version of
[45:57] it that that that was soothing to her.
[45:59] Um that How it.
[46:01] >> A lot of people, because of sort of
[46:03] early traumas are somewhat avoidant of
[46:05] love.
[46:06] >> Mhm.
[46:07] >> You explained that she moved out of the
[46:08] apartment when someone tried to propose
[46:10] to her. I could almost relate to some
[46:11] degree.
[46:12] I remember my early years of my in my
[46:15] early teens,
[46:16] I was extremely avoidant of commitment
[46:19] or relationships or whatever. And I
[46:21] remember this particular person turning
[46:23] around to me after I pursued them for 4
[46:25] years telling me that they would now
[46:26] want to be in a relationship with me and
[46:28] I remember immediately dissuading them.
[46:30] >> After pursuing them for 4 years?
[46:31] >> For 4 years, for sure I think.
[46:32] >> Yeah, but but also a lot of it reads
[46:34] back to our our early models of love and
[46:37] connection and relationships. So,
[46:38] >> Right.
[46:38] >> where we modeled it in a healthy way.
[46:41] >> Right.
[46:41] >> And this kind of brings me to the point
[46:43] around sort of overcoming
[46:46] trauma and wounds. How does the the the
[46:49] process of dying
[46:51] help us confront our earliest traumas or
[46:53] the traumas that have held us back in
[46:54] our lives? Have you seen evidence of
[46:56] that?
[46:56] >> Oh, lots.
[46:58] I'd seen it in this end-of-life process.
[47:00] And again, I think this is the most
[47:02] meaningful, for me personally, the most
[47:04] meaningful ones that I
[47:06] witness. So, I've seen a man who had
[47:09] lost his arm at the age of eight
[47:11] and he was from a an impoverished family
[47:14] and
[47:15] developmentally his whole identity was
[47:17] how was he going to be independent and
[47:20] be able to be a provider, etc.
[47:23] >> [gasps]
[47:23] >> And at the end of his life, he sees
[47:25] himself lying in a bed and everyone who
[47:28] he worked with came by him and told him
[47:30] he was the best worker they had known.
[47:32] A mother whose child was in prison for
[47:35] drug offenses and her her identity as a
[47:39] mother is being questioned. And at the
[47:41] end of her life, her parents come to her
[47:43] and tell her she's loved and she was a
[47:45] good parent.
[47:46] >> In a vision?
[47:47] >> Mhm.
[47:48] >> No No, physically.
[47:49] >> No.
[47:49] >> Okay.
[47:50] >> No, but again, there's something in us
[47:53] that's innate that can heal these kind
[47:56] of broken pieces of us at the end that
[47:59] make us whole. So, a lot of Again, I I I
[48:02] come back to it, the most inspiring
[48:04] people are the people who have been
[48:05] harmed and often from no nothing of
[48:08] their own doing, but that find peace in
[48:11] the end.
[48:12] >> Do you think there is life after death?
[48:15] >> Hm.
[48:16] >> Cuz one train of thought is that, you
[48:18] know, our body's going to the ground or
[48:19] we're cremated and then we become dust
[48:21] and then the trees, you know, we become
[48:22] part of the trees and the bees and the
[48:23] birds,
[48:24] and that's it.
[48:26] >> Yeah, I don't think we go on in a
[48:27] physical form, but I go back to this
[48:30] idea that there's the shared seems to be
[48:32] the shared consciousness that the love
[48:35] that we've experienced at early in life
[48:38] and it's very interesting, it tends to
[48:40] be those who loved us unconditionally
[48:42] and the other ones kind of go by the
[48:43] wayside, they're they're inseparable
[48:47] from us
[48:48] and they become more present to us as
[48:51] we're leaving our physical form.
[48:54] So, it does suggest that there's some
[48:56] sort of collective consciousness that
[48:58] goes on. And back to your survey on the
[49:00] bereaved, the fact that that many people
[49:03] feel that they're accessed
[49:05] by those who have passed is interesting.
[49:08] How do you see that?
[49:09] >> I think the consciousness is a really
[49:11] fascinating thing. You know, I've
[49:12] interviewed lots of people on this
[49:13] subject and
[49:14] I never really thought of consciousness
[49:16] as a thing before.
[49:18] But I've got a couple of hypotheses
[49:19] around what consciousness might be.
[49:23] None of them I can say I necessarily
[49:24] believe, but I remember one in
[49:25] particular, I think it was a physicist
[49:26] telling me
[49:28] that
[49:29] he thinks maybe consciousness is the way
[49:32] that the universe understands itself.
[49:34] And he hypothesized to me that
[49:36] consciousness breaks itself into lots of
[49:38] little pieces, into fish at the bottom
[49:40] of the ocean and then human beings that
[49:42] walk the land and birds that see from
[49:44] the sky,
[49:45] and it's consciousness's way of of
[49:48] learning about itself and understanding
[49:49] itself as it breaks itself into these
[49:50] living organisms. He sends some of them
[49:52] to the bottom of the oceans and some of
[49:53] them to the top of the mountains and
[49:55] they all explore in it. Maybe it
[49:56] explains why humans, but all animals,
[49:58] are so fascinated by novelty. Reason we
[50:00] go on holidays is because we want to
[50:02] have new experiences. We we go and look
[50:04] up in awe at things we've never seen
[50:06] before like mountains and it's
[50:08] interesting, you know, I was telling the
[50:10] story about being in, I think, Gibraltar
[50:11] or Malta or whatever it was and driving
[50:13] down the street after I'd had this
[50:14] conversation with this physicist and and
[50:17] looking at tourists in a completely new
[50:18] light because tourists are stood there
[50:21] for 10 minutes or an hour staring at
[50:23] something they've never seen before. And
[50:25] it's just it's interesting to me that
[50:26] that's part of the the animal experience
[50:29] is this fascination with things we
[50:31] haven't seen. So, maybe this hypothesis
[50:33] that consciousness is
[50:35] this central source that breaks into
[50:37] lots of pieces and goes off into
[50:39] existence to understand itself
[50:41] is a, you know, is a plausible
[50:44] not completely indefensible, but
[50:45] plausible idea. And then maybe when I
[50:47] die, I go I return back to
[50:50] the source of consciousness.
[50:52] >> I like my version better.
[50:53] >> [laughter]
[50:54] >> And you know what's interesting is that
[50:56] you should look at is the work that's
[50:58] done with psychedelics and dying
[51:00] patients.
[51:01] >> Tell me about that.
[51:02] >> Basically, when they give psychedelic
[51:04] drugs, which the indigenous people have
[51:06] been
[51:07] doing for thousands of years
[51:09] they come back structurally altered.
[51:11] First of all, their fear of dying
[51:13] dissipates.
[51:15] And they tend to see themselves as
[51:18] something larger.
[51:19] Immersed within and connected to uh to
[51:22] life at large, but they do they they're
[51:25] at peace
[51:26] in a beautiful way. So, they have this
[51:28] heightened awareness and they come back
[51:30] differently and they die differently.
[51:32] And that's like with this work, they die
[51:34] differently.
[51:36] >> So, back to our board here. What was the
[51:38] 10th thing? What matters most to people
[51:40] at the end of their life?
[51:42] Having finances in order. Hmm,
[51:45] interesting.
[51:46] >> And the last one is resolving conflicts.
[51:49] And that's where I have trouble with the
[51:50] idea of regret. Yeah, because it's not
[51:52] that important to be So if So now invert
[51:55] this. So if you went to people and said,
[51:56] "Do you have conflicts?" They go, "Yeah,
[51:58] I have conflicts." Or "Do you have
[51:59] regrets?" "Yeah, I have them." But when
[52:00] you actually rank order them as
[52:02] priorities, it's not relevant.
[52:05] >> Very interesting.
[52:06] Very, very interesting. It's definitely
[52:07] changed my mind cuz you're right.
[52:09] Because we,
[52:10] you know, we go and talk we talk about
[52:12] regrets at the end of your life and
[52:13] regret generally so often, we end up
[52:15] misunderstanding that to mean that
[52:17] regrets are the most important thing and
[52:19] that you need to live your life in a way
[52:21] where you don't have regrets. But
[52:22] actually, you're saying that having
[52:23] spoken to those that are dying,
[52:25] living their life free from regret seems
[52:27] to be quite low in the priorities of the
[52:30] >> What I think it is is a symptom of our
[52:31] times, right? Which we we become
[52:34] introspective and self-analytical. So if
[52:36] you if you ask these questions,
[52:39] they're going to come up. But in the in
[52:42] the lived experiences, are they actually
[52:44] relevant?
[52:45] >> So,
[52:46] we have these six handwritten cards.
[52:49] >> Um so these are the lessons I've learned
[52:51] from actually caring for dying patients.
[52:53] And probably the one
[52:55] that stands out the most is that love
[52:57] endures after physical loss.
[52:59] >> Love endures after physical loss.
[53:01] >> So the idea that um and this is really
[53:03] what our research bears out, which is
[53:06] that people who have been lost often
[53:09] decades earlier are there for us at the
[53:12] end. And that that part of that dying
[53:14] process is this reunion with and to
[53:17] them.
[53:18] Um so that that survives.
[53:20] >> And on that point, it's probably a good
[53:22] time to touch on the subject of grief
[53:24] Mhm. and how the dying process impacts
[53:26] the grief that those left behind
[53:28] experience.
[53:29] >> Yeah, uh and we've done a lot of work on
[53:32] this. And and a long story short is that
[53:35] how people die um absolutely affects our
[53:38] bereavement.
[53:40] How we witness that changes our our
[53:43] bereavement, and it's measurable. So,
[53:45] people who have had these experiences,
[53:47] who have watched their loved one
[53:49] reconnect, grieve very differently, and
[53:52] it's measurable actually in grief. How
[53:54] they
[53:55] remember, how they recall, how they get
[53:57] through obstacles, how they heal.
[53:59] >> So, if I want to grieve in the most
[54:01] healthy way,
[54:02] what dying experience is most conducive
[54:04] with that?
[54:06] >> Oh, seeing that loved one as rich in
[54:10] love rather than empty and defined by
[54:12] their physical dimensions. And I don't
[54:14] know if it would help you want to show
[54:15] the video of Jennifer.
[54:17] >> Sure.
[54:17] >> This is an interesting video for a
[54:19] couple of reasons, because these
[54:20] end-of-life
[54:22] events are not these great epiphanies or
[54:24] revelations. They're just about very
[54:26] real moments that are symbolic, usually
[54:29] of a relationship.
[54:31] And she's describing her partner,
[54:33] Patrick, who's at the end of his life,
[54:36] and he has these experiences. But, she
[54:37] describes what it means to her.
[54:40] >> Patrick was the only member of his
[54:42] family that knows how to make the sauce.
[54:45] And for all the years I knew him, he
[54:47] insisted something was missing.
[54:51] >> After his grandmother had passed?
[54:52] >> After she had passed. This would be the
[54:54] Sunday before he passed.
[54:57] He woke up in the morning, and I
[55:01] couldn't get him to eat. He wasn't
[55:03] hungry, total loss of appetite.
[55:06] And I'm like, "Baby, we got to make you
[55:08] something for breakfast. What do you
[55:09] want?" He goes, "I'm full."
[55:11] I said,
[55:13] "Pat, you had a snack pack pudding
[55:14] yesterday. You're not full."
[55:17] And he's like, "Oh, no. I ate with with
[55:19] Nana Dolores last night."
[55:21] He believed
[55:23] he made sauce
[55:25] with his grandmother
[55:27] the night before.
[55:29] Said he could smell it. He could still
[55:31] taste it. He was full from it.
[55:34] And she showed him, after all these
[55:36] years, what he had done wrong,
[55:39] which is the very last step before you
[55:41] take it off the burner, was to add
[55:45] a teaspoon of sugar. We spent the next 7
[55:49] and 1/2 hours cuz that's how long it
[55:50] takes
[55:52] making his grandmother's sauce. He added
[55:55] the sugar.
[55:57] Last time Patrick ever ate. Every
[55:59] morning he woke up saying,
[56:02] "Is today the day I'm going to die?"
[56:05] And I said, "Joe, go when you're ready."
[56:08] And he was ready.
[56:10] >> Did that dream help
[56:13] help you accept that reality further?
[56:15] >> Absolutely.
[56:16] >> Yeah.
[56:17] >> Absolutely. And um
[56:19] not only the reality that he is gone,
[56:22] it's made me think of
[56:25] maybe there is something out there after
[56:27] we go.
[56:28] >> So, how she remembers him in death was
[56:32] that he was put back together by being
[56:34] with those he loved.
[56:35] >> So, if I know that one of my relatives
[56:36] is going to pass away, what should I be
[56:39] doing to cuz you know, my first instinct
[56:41] in that scenario is to protect my family
[56:44] from the grief of it, to make sure that
[56:46] the grief process is as healthy as it
[56:49] can possibly be. And I'm not trying to,
[56:50] you know, deny grief in any way cuz I
[56:52] know that it's kind of unavoidable from
[56:53] everything I've read, but
[56:55] is there things we can do as a family to
[56:58] insulate us from having a really
[57:00] negative grieving process?
[57:02] >> Yeah, I think one is obviously
[57:04] communicating and being open with with
[57:07] each other and with what's happening. I
[57:09] think one of the worst outcomes we see
[57:12] and when death is denied. So, if you see
[57:15] it, if it's forecastable and it's
[57:17] obvious and you're proximate to us, it's
[57:20] less of an injury than if it's denied,
[57:22] denied, denied and then
[57:24] >> And then it happens.
[57:25] >> Yes, and we see so much of that in
[57:26] medicine. So, this is a rule for life
[57:28] which is acceptance. Oh gosh, yeah. A
[57:29] third of our patients that come to
[57:31] hospice are dead in 7 days.
[57:33] They didn't just didn't start dying
[57:34] seven days. They became aware of it. So,
[57:37] what we do is we refer this as medical
[57:40] harm. We deny them and separate them and
[57:43] deny their reality. So, they're left to
[57:45] figure it out suddenly and acutely. And
[57:48] that injury is you're robbing people of
[57:51] their agency, their time to spend the
[57:53] way they want, have the conversations
[57:54] they need to have. And the impact to the
[57:57] bereaved is enormous.
[57:58] >> So, acceptance number one. Anything
[58:00] else?
[58:00] >> Yeah, I had presence.
[58:02] >> Presence.
[58:02] >> And it used to be this way. It used to
[58:04] be death was in the home and it was in
[58:06] the community. It was shared. And that
[58:08] shared grief is is wonderful because
[58:11] we're meant to be mutually supportive.
[58:13] The opposite is a sterilized death. So,
[58:16] in an intensive care unit, in a gown,
[58:19] you know,
[58:19] anything that dehumanizes the process of
[58:22] dying is injurious.
[58:24] >> So, acceptance, physical presence.
[58:26] >> Yeah.
[58:27] >> Anything else that helps the grief
[58:28] process?
[58:29] >> Loving each other.
[58:32] Talking, sharing, acknowledging.
[58:36] Anything that's repressive or denying
[58:38] about it, whether it's your own
[58:40] feelings, whether it's what's happening
[58:42] to the patient, is harmful.
[58:45] Period.
[58:46] That's why death in the home is so
[58:48] different.
[58:50] You know, the person's seen as a as a
[58:51] person, not a patient, right?
[58:54] And the patients know us instinctively.
[58:57] That's why they want to get back home.
[59:00] This is your father
[59:01] >> passed away when you were
[59:02] >> Yeah, I was 12.
[59:03] >> You were 12 and he was 41?
[59:05] >> 42, I think.
[59:07] >> He passed away of
[59:08] >> cancer.
[59:09] >> Cancer.
[59:11] In what way was this formative?
[59:14] >> Well, I
[59:16] I think it
[59:17] it shaped life in certain ways that I
[59:20] wouldn't have chosen.
[59:22] Um
[59:23] and that I don't understand.
[59:28] The one thing was that you know, that
[59:30] that sort of loss at that sort of at
[59:33] that point in your life changed the
[59:35] trajectory of your life. You you just
[59:37] you don't just lose the person, you lose
[59:40] the world the way it's supposed to be.
[59:43] And for my for me,
[59:45] my world went off the tracks pretty
[59:48] badly. It was a pretty bumpy road.
[59:51] But you know,
[59:52] and it's so unusual because the last
[59:54] time I saw him,
[59:56] he was having one of these end-of-life
[59:58] experiences.
[1:00:00] I still can't make sense of it all
[1:00:01] because then after he died for many
[1:00:03] years, I could never speak his name. I
[1:00:05] couldn't certainly couldn't talk about
[1:00:07] the last time I saw him.
[1:00:09] So the irony
[1:00:11] that the thing I could never talk talk
[1:00:13] about
[1:00:14] it is the thing that I now share with
[1:00:16] millions of people. I feel like I'm
[1:00:17] getting pumped. Like
[1:00:20] I didn't mean for this to happen.
[1:00:23] And you wonder though, you know, that
[1:00:25] sort of loss does change you, right? It
[1:00:27] it changes what you're sensitive to and
[1:00:29] others, what you see in others,
[1:00:32] what you feel from others, how you want
[1:00:34] to help. Does does grief ever go away?
[1:00:38] Uh, it doesn't.
[1:00:39] >> I think grief uh there's a
[1:00:42] period where grief is unbearable.
[1:00:45] And it's like having this rock in your
[1:00:48] pocket. You know it's there and other
[1:00:49] times you forget it.
[1:00:51] You lose the person in the physical
[1:00:54] form,
[1:00:55] but they still relate to you in other
[1:00:57] ways. It changes how you see the world
[1:01:00] for having known them.
[1:01:02] So they continue on in some way.
[1:01:05] We talk about grief in terms of what we
[1:01:08] lose, but not necessarily what remains.
[1:01:11] And a lot of that person remains.
[1:01:14] And and and and that's remembered. And I
[1:01:18] think
[1:01:19] you grief is probably one of the most
[1:01:21] illuminating things that can happen in
[1:01:24] your life.
[1:01:25] It changes
[1:01:27] your life, the circumstances. I wouldn't
[1:01:29] be talking to you if I hadn't lost my
[1:01:30] father as a boy, for example. Wouldn't
[1:01:33] happen.
[1:01:34] Because a chain of events
[1:01:36] took place.
[1:01:37] >> And you interviewed 750 grieving
[1:01:39] families.
[1:01:40] >> Mhm.
[1:01:42] I think there's a great expression that
[1:01:44] you know, the trick is, the art is, is
[1:01:47] to carry grief in one hand, gratitude in
[1:01:49] the other, and be struck by both. You
[1:01:51] know, you don't deny the grief, but you
[1:01:53] learn how to be grateful. And somewhere
[1:01:56] um there's peace there.
[1:01:59] >> When you interviewed those 750 grieving
[1:02:01] families,
[1:02:02] did you notice
[1:02:04] a difference between those that really
[1:02:07] carried the grief well
[1:02:10] versus those that
[1:02:12] didn't carry it so well?
[1:02:13] >> Yeah, but but we were looking at a very
[1:02:15] specific question. We were looking at
[1:02:17] families who had seen these end-of-life
[1:02:19] experiences.
[1:02:21] And the best example I can give you is
[1:02:24] say you have a couple
[1:02:26] and they've been married for six
[1:02:28] decades.
[1:02:29] And part of their shared life was losing
[1:02:31] a child, an infant.
[1:02:33] And the spouse is looking down at his
[1:02:36] loved one in the bed, the woman in the
[1:02:38] bed.
[1:02:39] And she in in her inner experiences is
[1:02:42] holding this deceased child.
[1:02:45] And she's at peace.
[1:02:47] And
[1:02:49] that that well one connects all lives,
[1:02:52] right? Living and dead, but it reframes
[1:02:56] dying from something that could be empty
[1:02:59] and only defined by its physical
[1:03:01] dimensionality, what you're seeing,
[1:03:03] and it shows that it can be rich in
[1:03:06] meaning and love.
[1:03:07] Because the question always is when you
[1:03:10] care for these families is when that
[1:03:12] patient becomes non-verbal, when you
[1:03:14] become disconnected from them, is the
[1:03:17] question is where are they and how are
[1:03:19] they?
[1:03:20] And if you're seeing that,
[1:03:22] that changes how you experience their
[1:03:25] loss
[1:03:26] and it informs how you grieve.
[1:03:29] You view it very differently.
[1:03:31] >> I've done almost 700 interviews with
[1:03:34] some of the most interesting people in
[1:03:35] the world. And one of the things you
[1:03:36] learn, which is unexpected, is that
[1:03:38] vulnerability is the doorway to
[1:03:40] connection. And after sitting here for 2
[1:03:42] 3 hours with a guest, I feel a deep
[1:03:45] sense of connection to them. And as they
[1:03:46] leave, what I get them to do is to write
[1:03:49] a question in the diary of a CEO. We've
[1:03:52] taken all of the questions from the
[1:03:54] diary of a CEO. We have put the question
[1:03:58] here on this card with the name of the
[1:04:00] person that wrote it. So you can sit at
[1:04:01] home, as I do with my fiance, and my
[1:04:04] colleagues at work, and other people in
[1:04:05] my life, whenever we get a minute, we
[1:04:07] play the diary of a CEO conversation
[1:04:09] cards. And it is incredible what
[1:04:12] happens. These are great if you're in a
[1:04:13] romantic relationship and you want to
[1:04:15] connect your partner more. These are
[1:04:16] also great if you're in a team and you
[1:04:18] want to bond your team together. And I
[1:04:20] have to say they're also great for
[1:04:21] families that want to learn more about
[1:04:22] each other and that need a good excuse
[1:04:25] to spend some time in a digital world in
[1:04:27] the analog environment, connecting
[1:04:29] human-to-human. It is remarkable what
[1:04:32] the right question at the right time can
[1:04:34] do. Go to the diary.com
[1:04:37] and you can get [clears throat] these
[1:04:38] conversation cards right now.
[1:04:41] There should be a button just down below
[1:04:43] here. And if it says subscribe, you're
[1:04:45] already subscribed. If it says
[1:04:46] subscriber, that means you're not yet.
[1:04:49] And if you're not subscribed, please
[1:04:50] could you do us a favor and hit that
[1:04:51] button. It helps to show more than you
[1:04:52] know. And according to the algorithm,
[1:04:54] you're someone that watches our show,
[1:04:56] but you haven't yet hit that button.
[1:04:57] Thank you so much.
[1:04:59] So that was the first point. Love
[1:05:01] endures after physical loss.
[1:05:03] >> Yes.
[1:05:05] >> Number two.
[1:05:08] >> Hope never fades. It changes.
[1:05:12] And it's a very interesting thing.
[1:05:13] >> What does that mean, sir?
[1:05:14] >> Well, when you're diagnosed with
[1:05:16] illness, you hope for cure.
[1:05:20] And then you know, it's unbelievable
[1:05:24] how acceptance comes into play.
[1:05:27] And they kind of get through that, and
[1:05:29] then they hope for other things, but the
[1:05:32] hope doesn't change. It just evolves.
[1:05:35] It It's It's fundamental, and it becomes
[1:05:38] hope I want to be comfortable. Hope I
[1:05:40] want to have time with my family. It
[1:05:42] becomes all those things that they
[1:05:43] become That's all based in hope. So,
[1:05:46] hope didn't go away when they find out
[1:05:48] they're dying. It just changed shape.
[1:05:50] >> They just hope for something else.
[1:05:51] >> And then at the end, it's the most
[1:05:53] beautiful part is it becomes hope for
[1:05:56] others.
[1:05:58] And that's what you hear again and
[1:06:00] again, and it's just this wonderful
[1:06:01] story.
[1:06:02] Somehow we become less selfish. I found
[1:06:06] this when I was when I tried to get the
[1:06:07] study approved. Many says of the The
[1:06:10] university would say, "Oh, you can't You
[1:06:12] know, we want to sterilize the dying.
[1:06:13] They're never going to participate.
[1:06:15] They're dying. Why would they want to
[1:06:16] waste your time with you?" And actually,
[1:06:19] they all did. And they even want to be
[1:06:22] filmed.
[1:06:23] And if you think about it, there's no
[1:06:24] secondary gain. They're never going to
[1:06:26] see It's like the old man that plants
[1:06:28] the trees never going to live under the
[1:06:29] shade, but somebody else does, right?
[1:06:32] And that's what That's what we get from
[1:06:34] that. It mattered that they contributed.
[1:06:37] It mattered that they connected. It
[1:06:39] mattered that they were heard, that
[1:06:41] their words mattered. And that's a form
[1:06:43] of hope.
[1:06:44] So, they've gone from cure when they
[1:06:46] were diagnosed, and they let go of that,
[1:06:49] and then they think about things like
[1:06:50] comfort and having time with family, but
[1:06:53] then at the end, what they always hope
[1:06:55] for is other people.
[1:06:57] >> Maybe that's the essence of us.
[1:06:59] >> Yeah, it's it's a
[1:07:00] It's a better version
[1:07:02] of thinking. I think we live in a
[1:07:04] selfish space.
[1:07:06] I think we're robbed of that when you
[1:07:07] become a parent and whatnot, but I think
[1:07:09] in the end I think it's wonderful that
[1:07:11] hope doesn't extinguish because cure
[1:07:13] has.
[1:07:16] You know.
[1:07:18] The next is people don't stop living
[1:07:21] because they're dying. And when we did
[1:07:23] this study looking at dying analogous to
[1:07:26] post-traumatic growth, the idea that
[1:07:28] that within a negative adverse event
[1:07:31] like war, there's positive things like
[1:07:33] camaraderie. That's what we found with
[1:07:35] this
[1:07:36] is that people were growing and adopting
[1:07:39] and this was measurable and significant
[1:07:41] according to post-traumatic growth
[1:07:42] scales right up until the last days of
[1:07:45] life. And it's paradoxical to the
[1:07:48] physical state. So physically they're
[1:07:50] declining, but psychologically and
[1:07:52] spiritually they're very
[1:07:54] much alive.
[1:07:57] Number four, the dying leave us
[1:07:59] connected.
[1:08:01] This became very important and I wrote
[1:08:03] about this during COVID because so many
[1:08:04] people were removed from their loved
[1:08:06] ones, which was an unbelievable tragedy.
[1:08:09] And what I wrote about was, you know,
[1:08:13] when they're having these inner
[1:08:14] experiences, actually they're immersed
[1:08:15] and very much connected. We don't see
[1:08:18] people have these experiences in
[1:08:20] solitary. We tend to think of
[1:08:22] dying as lonely and a solitary event.
[1:08:26] Yeah. And what happens is in our inner
[1:08:28] world we're bringing people into us.
[1:08:30] We're reflecting on life and in these
[1:08:32] end-of-life dreams and visions we're
[1:08:34] just immersed with people who we love.
[1:08:37] So even though it looks like they may be
[1:08:38] isolated in intensive care unit when
[1:08:40] their eyes are closed, they're also
[1:08:42] surrounded in love. But then externally,
[1:08:45] the dying process brings people
[1:08:47] together.
[1:08:49] Lives stop. You know, that son who has a
[1:08:51] roaring job in California has to fly
[1:08:53] home to New York. It It tends to stop
[1:08:58] the world and we focus on what really
[1:09:00] matters, which is each other. And that's
[1:09:03] very clear.
[1:09:06] The dying can heal when harmed or
[1:09:08] broken.
[1:09:10] And this happens in a multitude of ways.
[1:09:12] Um there's that ex- external peace,
[1:09:15] whether it's making peace with their
[1:09:16] God, making peace with their family.
[1:09:19] It's amazing how many families come
[1:09:21] together.
[1:09:23] And what seemed like an issue of
[1:09:26] contention
[1:09:27] goes away and dissipates. And they're
[1:09:30] able to see beyond that. It reshuffles
[1:09:33] your priorities in ways that you can't
[1:09:35] imagine. The grudge that was held on to
[1:09:38] is let go. So there's this healing
[1:09:40] process that's innate to dying.
[1:09:43] And I think internally what we see again
[1:09:46] and again and again, people who are
[1:09:47] having negative or distressing dreams
[1:09:50] and visions, they're often centered
[1:09:52] around harmful things. Um but they're
[1:09:55] often addressed within that process so
[1:09:58] that somehow, and this is probably the
[1:10:00] most remarkable thing of all. They've
[1:10:01] lived this life with this injury and it
[1:10:05] gets addressed in the end. There's
[1:10:07] almost like this final justice. People
[1:10:09] like Dwayne, you know, who has wrestled
[1:10:11] with these demons his whole life, and
[1:10:14] then at the end he's kind of made whole.
[1:10:19] Lesson number six is there's a better
[1:10:22] story than the one we fear.
[1:10:24] And the best analogy I can give you is
[1:10:27] that famous Dylan Thomas, the famous
[1:10:31] poet. It's a message to his father who
[1:10:34] is who is becoming blind and dying, I
[1:10:36] believe. But he was healthy. And it
[1:10:38] says, you know,
[1:10:40] you basically don't surrender, don't
[1:10:41] fight the dying of the light.
[1:10:44] And most of us in health can relate to
[1:10:46] this idea of the resistance of death,
[1:10:49] you know, that you're going to this is
[1:10:51] the enemy to be fought and you're going
[1:10:53] to muster all your strength and will and
[1:10:55] you're you're to overcome and survive.
[1:10:57] And that's how it happens to the dying.
[1:11:00] The dying aren't fighting against
[1:11:02] anything. If anything, they're fighting
[1:11:05] towards and they're what they're
[1:11:06] fighting towards to get back to those
[1:11:08] that they've loved and they've lost.
[1:11:11] Horace is a great example. So, Horace is
[1:11:13] I believe close to 9 years old and he's
[1:11:16] very near the end of his life.
[1:11:18] And I think what's beautiful about
[1:11:20] Horace
[1:11:21] is that
[1:11:22] his inner world experiences are so
[1:11:25] overwhelming that he actually struggles
[1:11:27] to find language
[1:11:29] for what the beauty that he's
[1:11:30] experiences, the colors that are richer,
[1:11:32] his wife, the relief he feels in seeing
[1:11:36] her. And it really it really highlights
[1:11:38] this notion that they actually aren't
[1:11:40] struggling against anything. If
[1:11:41] anything, Horace wants to go to this
[1:11:44] experience that he's having with his
[1:11:46] eyes closed. So, if we could watch
[1:11:47] Horace, that would be great.
[1:11:49] >> I should look all this beautiful.
[1:11:51] She was even
[1:11:53] feeling pretty. She was
[1:11:58] Mhm.
[1:12:02] She was looking at me inside out.
[1:12:07] Mhm.
[1:12:09] Yeah.
[1:12:11] Mhm.
[1:12:12] And maybe the
[1:12:14] I'm just maybe
[1:12:16] words weren't necessarily
[1:12:19] just looking at each other and
[1:12:21] knew exactly what uh
[1:12:23] I was always
[1:12:25] I was thinking.
[1:12:27] >> And he's describing a vision he's had
[1:12:29] there.
[1:12:29] >> Mhm.
[1:12:30] >> But it's beautiful. And he describes his
[1:12:31] relief like paying a bill. Like it's
[1:12:34] over. And the greens of the grass are
[1:12:36] greener and he's so emoted by it that he
[1:12:39] starts to get very tearful.
[1:12:42] >> How has interviewing these people as
[1:12:44] they're
[1:12:45] leaving this world changed how you live
[1:12:47] your life on a day-to-day, week-to-week,
[1:12:49] month-to-month basis?
[1:12:51] >> Oh.
[1:12:53] I I think a lot. I think cancer
[1:12:56] did more to change how I live on a daily
[1:12:58] basis, probably.
[1:13:00] >> You had stage four?
[1:13:01] >> Mhm.
[1:13:01] >> [clears throat]
[1:13:02] >> Stage four cancer?
[1:13:03] >> Mhm.
[1:13:03] >> Has it changed your perspective of you
[1:13:06] dying yourself?
[1:13:07] >> I can tell you that I'm certainly not
[1:13:09] fearful of the actual process of dying.
[1:13:12] >> Anymore?
[1:13:14] >> No.
[1:13:15] Yeah, I'm not.
[1:13:15] >> Were you before?
[1:13:17] >> Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
[1:13:19] it's innate to us, right? It's why we
[1:13:20] survive. It's we're meant to
[1:13:23] uh resist.
[1:13:24] >> And what in particular has alleviated
[1:13:26] that fear?
[1:13:28] >> Oh, I think seeing so many patients. I
[1:13:30] think having to face it myself, the part
[1:13:34] that possibility
[1:13:35] myself. I had to wrestle that demon.
[1:13:38] >> And where does the comfort come from?
[1:13:40] >> It gets because it becomes less about
[1:13:41] self. It's very interesting. When you
[1:13:44] have a diagnosis like I had, first
[1:13:47] you're confronted with this
[1:13:49] enormous responsibility,
[1:13:51] this reckoning with
[1:13:53] the lives that you're responsible to.
[1:13:56] And you worry about their wounds and how
[1:13:59] they're going to be, particularly if you
[1:14:00] have people who are dependent on you.
[1:14:03] So, I went through that's what you first
[1:14:05] are confronted with. And then it changes
[1:14:08] you in a lot of ways.
[1:14:10] >> What specifically has changed?
[1:14:13] >> I was always um restless. I
[1:14:17] could never sit. But cancer brought that
[1:14:20] to a stop.
[1:14:22] Suddenly.
[1:14:23] And it's a very weird thing because
[1:14:26] there's no period of adaptation. All of
[1:14:28] the sudden, you can't do. You're used to
[1:14:30] going into the world and now the world
[1:14:34] has to
[1:14:35] come to you.
[1:14:36] And it forces you to do what I really
[1:14:40] could never do, which is kind of be more
[1:14:42] more present. I rehabbed basically over
[1:14:46] many, many months
[1:14:47] um on my farm.
[1:14:49] And I would gradually walk a little
[1:14:51] farther down the driveway, then in the
[1:14:53] barn,
[1:14:54] the animals walk in field, then woods.
[1:14:57] And I can't quite describe this, but
[1:15:00] this one day I was there and I'm looking
[1:15:02] at these willow trees that I had planted
[1:15:05] decades earlier.
[1:15:07] And they were the most beautiful things
[1:15:09] I'd ever seen.
[1:15:11] And
[1:15:12] uh you know, the trees hadn't changed.
[1:15:15] I I I changed. Victor Frankl talks about
[1:15:19] this in the book Man's Search for
[1:15:21] Meaning, right?
[1:15:22] >> He was a Holocaust survivor.
[1:15:23] >> Yeah.
[1:15:24] >> Yeah.
[1:15:24] >> And
[1:15:25] somehow he came out of that experience
[1:15:27] and was able to put a lot of definition
[1:15:29] around finding meaning. And he describes
[1:15:32] a day when
[1:15:34] one of the prisoners runs out and says,
[1:15:35] "Look at the sunset." And they all come
[1:15:37] out and they're all admiring it despite
[1:15:39] their despair and destitute. And the one
[1:15:41] says, "Look at what the world could be."
[1:15:44] And the point is is that beauty
[1:15:46] isn't about doing or accomplishing, but
[1:15:49] that's in it's internalized. It's the
[1:15:51] finding meaning in the experience. And I
[1:15:53] never got it, but I got it then when I
[1:15:56] got sick.
[1:15:57] >> And on that point of meaning, which is
[1:15:58] the word on the front of your book here,
[1:16:00] what is the the meaning of life?
[1:16:03] From everything you've experienced and
[1:16:05] all the death, loss, grief you've seen,
[1:16:08] what is the meaning of life?
[1:16:10] >> I don't know about meaning, but I know
[1:16:12] the destination is always love.
[1:16:15] >> [sighs]
[1:16:15] >> And I think that um
[1:16:17] we're meant to get there together.
[1:16:19] And we're meant to endure struggle
[1:16:22] together.
[1:16:23] I think that that's just fundamental. We
[1:16:26] again we're fundamentally interdependent
[1:16:29] and reliant on one another.
[1:16:32] If you think of the best
[1:16:34] parts of yourself, it's always in the
[1:16:36] context of love.
[1:16:39] >> You wrote this wonderful book, Death is
[1:16:40] but a Dream, Finding Hope and meaning at
[1:16:43] life's end.
[1:16:45] Who is this for?
[1:16:47] Hm.
[1:16:48] >> Well, again, it was meant for a medical
[1:16:50] audience, but I think it's anybody who's
[1:16:53] caring for somebody. I think it's
[1:16:54] anybody who's wondering about their own
[1:16:56] mortality. I think what I find a lot of
[1:16:59] people are benefiting is people who have
[1:17:01] witnessed these experiences, but it's
[1:17:03] never been explained.
[1:17:05] And I think it it's nice because it
[1:17:06] includes different types of patients.
[1:17:08] So, it includes patients who are
[1:17:09] cognitively different, includes
[1:17:11] children. In in each one of those is
[1:17:13] very unique.
[1:17:15] >> Dr. Christopher, we have a closing
[1:17:16] tradition on this podcast where the last
[1:17:18] guest leaves a question for the next
[1:17:19] guest, not knowing who they're leaving
[1:17:20] it for.
[1:17:21] The question that has been left for you
[1:17:24] is a question I have to ask. What is one
[1:17:25] thing we haven't talked about that we
[1:17:27] should have talked about?
[1:17:28] >> The children.
[1:17:30] >> Explain.
[1:17:32] >> Children die very differently. I
[1:17:35] think that
[1:17:37] it's not so much lessons, but they're
[1:17:38] certainly inspiration, and I think it
[1:17:41] talks about what's innate in us.
[1:17:43] >> How do children die differently from
[1:17:45] adults?
[1:17:45] >> Oh.
[1:17:47] >> [sighs and gasps]
[1:17:47] >> Well, for one, they don't struggle to
[1:17:50] find acceptance. It's they
[1:17:52] they're already accepting.
[1:17:54] They don't think in terms of finality of
[1:17:56] mortality.
[1:17:57] They just accept the state that is. So,
[1:18:00] they don't talk in terms of regrets and
[1:18:02] what ifs. Children have this amazing
[1:18:04] ability
[1:18:05] to
[1:18:06] take care to make themselves whole, to
[1:18:09] take care of themselves, to reassure
[1:18:10] themselves. So, one of the ways they do
[1:18:13] that is they may not known somebody
[1:18:15] who's died, so who comes back for them.
[1:18:17] And often it's an animal.
[1:18:20] And and children don't have the same
[1:18:22] distinctions, obviously, between the
[1:18:24] human and the animal world. And they
[1:18:26] come with the same message, which is
[1:18:28] that they're loved and that they're not
[1:18:29] alone.
[1:18:31] The other thing that's just fascinating
[1:18:32] is they become very self-informed by
[1:18:35] these inner experiences. By that, I mean
[1:18:38] they end up understanding where they
[1:18:40] are. You don't have to tell them they're
[1:18:42] dying. They seem to put this together in
[1:18:44] remarkable ways.
[1:18:47] And
[1:18:48] far and away
[1:18:49] the most remarkable thing about children
[1:18:53] is that have this quiet courage and how
[1:18:56] they care
[1:18:58] for those around them. So they become so
[1:19:01] utterly selfless. It's almost hard to
[1:19:03] describe. There's a young lady who was
[1:19:06] taking her pain medicine. She didn't
[1:19:09] want to take her pain medicine because
[1:19:11] she was enjoying being awake and plugged
[1:19:13] in.
[1:19:14] But she she was sensitive to what other
[1:19:17] people were observing and she didn't
[1:19:19] want her mother to see her grimace.
[1:19:21] Another one who was from Syria. She knew
[1:19:24] she was dying. Her parents couldn't talk
[1:19:26] to her about it, but she had already
[1:19:27] gone ahead on Facebook and said goodbye
[1:19:30] and given life lessons.
[1:19:32] >> Do they have the same visions and
[1:19:33] dreams?
[1:19:33] >> Oh yeah, they do it better.
[1:19:35] Um and we could show that with Jessica.
[1:19:39] >> So tell me about Jessica.
[1:19:40] >> Jessica's 13 years old and she's raised
[1:19:43] by a single mother.
[1:19:45] And
[1:19:46] she sees this deceased friend of her
[1:19:48] mother's playing with her curtains.
[1:19:50] >> Mhm.
[1:19:51] >> [clears throat]
[1:19:51] >> And she doesn't want to tell her mom
[1:19:53] because they didn't want to scare her,
[1:19:55] but it made her feel good because she
[1:19:57] was a good person and again she's not
[1:19:59] going to be alone. So they tend to look
[1:20:01] after, despite being children
[1:20:04] and being robbed of life, they somehow
[1:20:07] tend to worry about others and try to
[1:20:08] protect others and that's what she does.
[1:20:11] >> I had a feeling that she was just coming
[1:20:13] and telling me that you're going to be
[1:20:15] okay. Everything's fine, but she didn't
[1:20:18] look at me.
[1:20:19] She was just looking, but I had a
[1:20:21] feeling if I called out her name, she
[1:20:24] would look at me, but I didn't want to
[1:20:26] scare my mom. I felt a sign of relief.
[1:20:29] >> Yeah.
[1:20:31] >> And happiness because
[1:20:34] she was a very strong person and I know
[1:20:37] that I'm strong and my mom tells me all
[1:20:39] the time that I was I'm like her.
[1:20:43] >> Wow.
[1:20:44] >> And you told me that you thought that oh
[1:20:46] mom I saw an angel.
[1:20:47] >> That's how you said you felt and you
[1:20:49] said felt peace and then you were able
[1:20:51] to go to sleep.
[1:20:52] >> And then I was able to go to sleep.
[1:20:54] >> So it was really comforting.
[1:20:55] >> It was comforting, yeah.
[1:20:57] >> You weren't afraid?
[1:20:58] >> I wasn't afraid of it at all.
[1:21:00] >> So children have this way of of
[1:21:04] self-healing that's remarkable. We have
[1:21:06] another children child on video who she
[1:21:08] creates this castle
[1:21:10] and she can feel the warmth of light
[1:21:12] coming through the window and all the
[1:21:14] animals are well and playing and when
[1:21:16] asked what the castle meant she said it
[1:21:18] meant that there's a safe place.
[1:21:24] >> Dr. Christopher Kerr
[1:21:26] what a wonderful reminder of what
[1:21:27] actually matters.
[1:21:29] >> Good.
[1:21:30] >> And also when we [clears throat] think
[1:21:32] about how many of us ourselves fear
[1:21:35] our own death it's quite quite high.
[1:21:37] It's about half half of people, men and
[1:21:39] women, fear their own death.
[1:21:41] But actually I think through your
[1:21:42] research, through the book that you've
[1:21:43] written, and through the studies that I
[1:21:45] have here in front of me, it's certainly
[1:21:46] made me think a lot less about the fear
[1:21:48] of my own death cuz you're right people
[1:21:49] think of it as being this sort of
[1:21:50] painful, prolonged process.
[1:21:52] [clears throat]
[1:21:53] But that's not what you report.
[1:21:54] >> No, and actually we've looked at that
[1:21:55] and what they actually fear is isolation
[1:21:59] >> Yeah.
[1:22:00] >> and being disconnected.
[1:22:01] >> And
[1:22:03] more so than fearing our own death we
[1:22:04] fear losing someone else.
[1:22:06] >> Right. I haven't ever come with the
[1:22:08] right way to frame it but all of this
[1:22:10] comes back to this better idea that the
[1:22:12] concern is for others than self more
[1:22:14] than self.
[1:22:15] >> And that's a beautiful thing.
[1:22:16] >> Yeah.
[1:22:17] >> Death is but a dream, finding hope and
[1:22:19] meaning at life's end by Dr. Christopher
[1:22:21] Kerr. I'll link this book below for
[1:22:23] anyone that would like to read it and
[1:22:24] dive deeper into these subjects. They
[1:22:25] are
[1:22:26] illuminating subjects. Again because
[1:22:28] people in those moments of their life
[1:22:30] have such a wonderful retrospective
[1:22:31] clarity. But maybe it's just clarity.
[1:22:34] Yeah, maybe it's just clarity on what
[1:22:36] actually mattered the whole time, as you
[1:22:37] say. Thank you so much for doing this
[1:22:39] work because again it's destigmatized a
[1:22:40] bunch of
[1:22:42] prevailing myths and ideas about the
[1:22:44] last stages of our life that probably
[1:22:45] cause us undue harm
[1:22:47] both to those that are left behind but
[1:22:49] also to those that pass on and
[1:22:53] it does it raises more questions about
[1:22:54] the nature of consciousness and
[1:22:57] spirituality and religion and the
[1:22:59] afterlife and all these things which
[1:23:01] I guess are
[1:23:05] are individual questions to answer.
[1:23:07] >> [clears throat]
[1:23:07] >> Thank you. Thank you.
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