Transcript
[0:00] So, welcome and they're really good to
[0:03] speak to you publicly. We've been
[0:04] chatting
[0:05] just come up for supper in our community
[0:07] and we've been meeting and talking about
[0:09] the book and about your life and work.
[0:11] But, let let's jump in with you reading
[0:13] a little bit from the book. So, it gives
[0:15] you a sense of Well, it kind of framed
[0:18] the whole discussion, I think.
[0:19] >> Absolutely. Yeah, I'll start on page one
[0:23] just to give you a bit of context. I'm
[0:24] only going to read about 18 pages. So,
[0:28] >> [laughter]
[0:28] >> um my heart always sinks when the author
[0:31] says I'm going to do a reading. Now, I
[0:33] always think how long's this going to
[0:34] be? But, I'll keep it short.
[0:38] The man standing next to me inside the
[0:40] lift looks uncannily like my father, who
[0:43] I have not seen for 20 years since he
[0:46] was sent to prison.
[0:48] He is short, has yellowed fingertips,
[0:51] and the sleeves of his oversized suit
[0:53] jacket brush his knuckles.
[0:56] I have seen men who look like my father
[0:58] before while I was on buses and trains
[1:02] or standing at urinals in pub toilets.
[1:04] I've seen them in London, Manchester,
[1:06] Berlin, and Rio de Janeiro.
[1:10] In the lift, I glance at him and
[1:13] recognize the permanently clenched jaw,
[1:16] the emphysemic wheeze in the breathing.
[1:20] I pull my shirt sleeve over my wrist to
[1:22] conceal my watch
[1:24] and ask him for the time.
[1:26] He does not answer in a scouse accent
[1:29] and therefore he is not my dad.
[1:31] Neither were the men in Germany or
[1:33] Brazil.
[1:35] We travel up another five floors in
[1:37] silence.
[1:38] The lift stops.
[1:40] The doors open and he exits.
[1:44] Tomorrow Tomorrow morning, I'll be going
[1:46] into prison for the first time.
[1:49] I'll be teaching philosophy to men.
[1:54] >> Great. Well, that's a really good place
[1:56] to start. So,
[1:57] yeah, I wanted you know you
[1:59] Diana was saying I like personal stories
[2:01] and
[2:02] we're always talking to persons, we're
[2:04] not talking about subjects. So, I
[2:05] thought
[2:07] you you introduce your father then, your
[2:09] father and your brother and your uncle
[2:11] even are a themes right the way through
[2:13] the book. So, I thought it'd be good to
[2:15] start with
[2:17] your story, you at 7, you you know, with
[2:20] your dad watching television.
[2:22] Um
[2:23] those those stories which I found very
[2:25] very poignant. And um the stories that
[2:28] I don't have, you know, none of my
[2:30] family went to prison.
[2:32] Um
[2:33] So, it'd be good to start with that.
[2:34] It's a bit So, you know, introduce
[2:35] yourself as a child there and um your
[2:39] father and the experience.
[2:42] >> Yeah, I mean um
[2:45] prison was always kind of stories to me.
[2:47] So, so writing this book felt very
[2:49] logical because um
[2:51] it was either a story that I was kind of
[2:53] being told or a story that I wasn't
[2:56] being told, but either way there was a
[2:58] kind of hunger there to
[2:59] to describe and and and tell a story.
[3:03] My my dad's from Liverpool as you could
[3:05] um tell from that. And my mom's side of
[3:07] the family from the East End, Canning
[3:08] Town, um not far from here.
[3:11] And you know, if I went to my
[3:12] grandmother's house
[3:14] on a Sunday, you know, before the kettle
[3:16] had even boiled, my uncle was telling me
[3:18] about this time at HM Brixton prison
[3:20] where, you know, there was this incident
[3:22] or there was this thing and all these
[3:23] kind of war stories, you know, and he
[3:25] was very kind of gleeful and
[3:28] they were the great drama of his life
[3:30] and and um
[3:31] he's he's one of the characters in the
[3:33] book. Um
[3:35] but you know, when my brother went to
[3:36] prison, uh which he did
[3:39] about 12 times in total.
[3:42] Uh
[3:43] you know, I remember the first time I
[3:44] visited him when I was about six or
[3:45] seven, we got in the car and my mom
[3:47] said, "Your brother's going to do a bit
[3:49] of work.
[3:51] Uh we're going to visit him at work."
[3:53] And I was like, that's that's weird
[3:54] because
[3:55] he's never had a job before.
[3:58] He's never had one since, actually, now
[4:00] that I think of it.
[4:01] Um and you know, I got to HMP Gloucester
[4:05] and
[4:06] uh visited my brother doing a bit of
[4:07] work uh
[4:10] across the table while there were prison
[4:11] officers around the room uh monitoring
[4:14] the situation. Uh
[4:17] and so that was a very different
[4:19] thing because where my uncle was so
[4:20] forthcoming and so gleefully kind of
[4:23] shameless in telling me these kind of
[4:26] tales and war stories, my brother was
[4:29] very protective and didn't want me to
[4:31] know.
[4:32] And and you know, that's that's a trope
[4:35] of the prison visitor world that, you
[4:36] know,
[4:37] your dad's working away or he's in a
[4:39] factory or he's in the army or
[4:41] something, but but to not tell the
[4:42] truth.
[4:44] Because families and parents don't
[4:46] really know how you communicate
[4:48] something that big and that scary to to
[4:51] a child. But I suppose my interpretation
[4:54] of
[4:56] not being told the truth in that was
[4:59] that somehow you're you're not to know
[5:01] about this world. This world is not for
[5:03] you. You don't belong here.
[5:05] Um
[5:06] which can only make you more curious, of
[5:09] course.
[5:10] >> of course.
[5:11] And your father? You know, your
[5:13] brother's story we might come back to it
[5:16] cuz it's very strong story and but you
[5:18] you you know, your father as well.
[5:20] >> Yeah, I mean, my father I haven't seen
[5:21] since I was 12
[5:23] um and
[5:25] uh
[5:27] you know,
[5:27] >> Some quite scary scenes in the book
[5:28] about you and your father.
[5:30] >> Yeah, my father was violent,
[5:33] domineering, difficult,
[5:35] uh you know, um
[5:38] and
[5:40] it I sort of have this very mixed
[5:42] relationship with prison because, you
[5:43] know, my brother going in and out, you
[5:44] know, in during the throes of a very
[5:47] long and chronic heroin addiction, just
[5:49] felt deeply sort of painful and and and
[5:52] harmful.
[5:53] Uh but I think it was my dad going to
[5:56] prison
[5:57] that sort of allowed me to
[6:00] stand up and sort of suddenly I could
[6:03] breathe again and
[6:05] and you know, people often ask me uh
[6:08] after they've read my books of why do
[6:09] you think you went such a different way
[6:11] to the rest of these men and
[6:13] um
[6:14] you know, and and I find
[6:16] prisons, I know prisons deeply troubling
[6:18] and deeply harmful and shameful that
[6:21] that they exist in the state they do,
[6:23] but
[6:24] my dad being in prison
[6:27] may have been
[6:29] something that allowed me to become the
[6:31] person I did, so
[6:33] it's very mixed. It's very it's
[6:34] extremely complex, yeah.
[6:37] >> I mean it and you know,
[6:39] in your childhood, quite frightening.
[6:41] Your
[6:42] you know, your mother was very young.
[6:44] Um
[6:44] your dad
[6:46] They they just
[6:47] see if you can sort of show us that
[6:49] scene as as it were almost in front of
[6:51] the television. That thought that sticks
[6:53] in my mind.
[6:54] Um
[6:55] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is something we
[6:57] dramatized in the show actually, um
[7:00] which was really
[7:02] you know, really strange um because
[7:04] there's this wonderful actor, Gerard
[7:06] Kearns, um who um
[7:09] did everyone watch Shameless?
[7:12] He was one of the Gallagher brothers in
[7:14] Shameless when he was 17 or 18.
[7:17] Um and uh he's just
[7:20] you meet him and he's just the sweetest
[7:22] man you ever met. Um and then you know,
[7:25] the cameras would start rolling and he
[7:27] turned into my father.
[7:28] And then the cameras would cut and he'd
[7:30] become so sweet again. And and what was
[7:32] strange is, you know, he was working
[7:34] with a a child actor who was playing the
[7:37] younger version of me.
[7:39] And they would have these signals for
[7:41] when they would tap in and tap out
[7:43] because, you know, to a child actor it's
[7:46] really, you know, they can suspend
[7:48] disbelief, but also it's it's really
[7:50] frightening like when an adult is like
[7:51] being really aggressive with you.
[7:54] Um
[7:55] so, you know, that felt like quite a
[7:56] stark contrast. My dad did not tap in
[7:58] and tap out.
[7:59] >> No, I can imagine. [laughter]
[8:01] >> Um I you know, he wasn't that regulated.
[8:03] He was he was so easily
[8:07] it was very easy for him to feel
[8:09] slighted, humiliated, undermined, like
[8:11] he sort of had to reclaim some power,
[8:13] some authority.
[8:15] Um and you know, he was
[8:17] had these awful mood swings, but um
[8:20] the moment you're referring to, I think,
[8:21] which we is in the book and and we're
[8:23] dramatizing the show is this um
[8:26] my my dad would if my mom would ever put
[8:29] on makeup or done her hair or anything,
[8:31] he would always call her a tart.
[8:33] And he would always
[8:34] sort of try and get me to take part in
[8:36] this some
[8:38] game where he would say, "What is she?
[8:40] What is your mother?"
[8:41] And I would sort of, you know,
[8:44] frightened of my father's masculinity
[8:45] like
[8:46] "She's a tart." Yeah, "She's a tart."
[8:48] And it was this like call and response.
[8:50] And um there was a moment where
[8:53] you see it in the show, we we sort of
[8:55] had to leave this holiday early because
[8:58] uh
[9:00] my dad had stolen some jewelry, which
[9:02] actually turned out to be fake. And so
[9:04] there was we just got away with a fine,
[9:06] but you know, the the usual chaos was
[9:09] was following us.
[9:10] And I and
[9:12] you you see on screen um
[9:15] that I'm hungry and and I and we just
[9:17] can't get any food right now cuz cuz
[9:19] we're just like managing the situation
[9:20] and we're having to return home and what
[9:22] are we going to tell the neighbors and
[9:24] things like that. And so I called my
[9:25] mother a tart to to try and kind of gain
[9:29] that authority because that's what I'd
[9:31] been, you know, six, seven years old,
[9:33] this this is what I've been trained to
[9:34] do.
[9:35] And my dad was furious with me.
[9:37] Um and you know, it was really hard
[9:40] writing that scene.
[9:41] Uh you know, it he said, "Come over
[9:43] here. If you ever talk to your mother
[9:45] that way again, I'll kill you. Do you
[9:46] understand that? I'll end you."
[9:48] And uh
[9:51] I I think about that a lot when I'm in
[9:53] HMP Feltham or these prisons that have a
[9:56] lot of very young men. I'm like,
[9:58] it's so confusing, isn't it? It's so
[10:01] like learning masculinity
[10:03] is so confusing. And And you're learning
[10:05] it off of people who are so confused
[10:08] themselves. And And And this
[10:11] this code, this unwritten implicit code
[10:15] is
[10:16] is so hard. And in the way that In a way
[10:19] the book is a sort of trying to unpack
[10:20] that
[10:21] >> Yeah.
[10:21] >> code.
[10:23] >> And we'll come back to masculinity cuz I
[10:24] want to you know, want us to talk about
[10:26] that. You know, one of the things we
[10:27] were talking about is that 95% of people
[10:30] in prison are men. So, you know,
[10:32] we we must sort of properly explore
[10:34] that. Before we talk about I want to
[10:36] carry on with you a bit more. Um and
[10:39] that this that's the effect it had on
[10:41] you. Um
[10:43] you talk about this executioner all the
[10:45] way through the book. And this this this
[10:47] sense this binary sense of am I a good
[10:50] person or a bad person? And you know, I
[10:52] think everybody has that sense
[10:53] sometimes, don't they? Am I a good
[10:55] person or a bad person? But in your
[10:58] given your father and then your brother
[11:00] and and your uncle as you say,
[11:02] that's been really heightened in your
[11:04] life. So, I wonder whether you could say
[11:05] a bit about that sort of executioner.
[11:07] >> Yeah, so um
[11:09] I think there's a kind of
[11:12] it's it's very undiscovered, I think, as
[11:14] as a kind of human experience. Um
[11:17] but the children of
[11:19] um you know, people who've committed
[11:22] serious offenses and things like that,
[11:24] um do
[11:25] do carry some of that stigma in society.
[11:29] Um
[11:30] At a time when you know, your brain is
[11:31] not quite formed. And so for me there
[11:33] was a real sense of inherited shame, you
[11:37] know, this kind of sins of the father
[11:39] guilt.
[11:40] Uh
[11:41] and it was very psychological. It was It
[11:43] was this kind of dread feeling that
[11:46] have I committed a crime?
[11:48] Or am I about to or it it it felt very
[11:50] fatalistic.
[11:51] And um
[11:53] it was like having some kind of judge or
[11:54] prosecutor kind of in your head. Some
[11:56] someone who's about to send you down,
[11:58] you know.
[11:59] Um
[12:01] and and I I suppose what that was was
[12:03] just, you know,
[12:05] uh
[12:05] the feeling that everybody has
[12:08] uh
[12:08] that you you really don't want to turn
[12:10] into your dad, you know. I don't I think
[12:12] your dad can be like an English
[12:14] literature teacher. Can be like I don't
[12:16] want to be my dad.
[12:17] >> Yeah.
[12:18] >> But it just happens that my dad was like
[12:20] really violent.
[12:21] >> Oh yeah.
[12:22] >> Um you know, and so you know, I had I
[12:25] sort of had this
[12:27] kind of really overactive superego which
[12:30] which cashed out in terms of like a lot
[12:31] of obsessive
[12:33] behaviors, obsessive like mental rituals
[12:36] just to try and kind of
[12:38] make sure I didn't didn't follow that
[12:40] path. And part of it's just in your
[12:43] head, but part of it's, you know,
[12:46] if you're naughty at school, you're
[12:47] misbehaving or whatever,
[12:49] uh
[12:50] a kid can just be misbehaving, but if
[12:52] someone knows who your dad was, knows
[12:53] who's your who your brother was,
[12:55] it's like okay. And so that narrative
[12:58] kind of follows you. So
[13:00] um
[13:01] >> Was that a very real thing when when you
[13:03] were young that you know, that people
[13:05] knew about your father and your brother
[13:07] and then was cuz that's the dangerous
[13:08] and you get tarred by the same brush as
[13:10] a traditional artist.
[13:11] >> I think so. Yeah,
[13:12] I spent my teen years living somewhere
[13:14] else which which helped more than I
[13:16] realized probably.
[13:18] And
[13:20] >> [snorts]
[13:22] >> yeah, I think I think it you sort of go
[13:24] the other way, don't you? These things
[13:25] are so
[13:27] especially in childhood and
[13:29] developmental years, they're so kind of
[13:30] polarized. And I just became the kind of
[13:33] golden boy, you know, and I think that's
[13:35] common for
[13:36] in families that are quite violent or
[13:38] chaotic, you know, and I was the
[13:40] youngest as well and sort of had this
[13:42] sense of like
[13:44] I really don't want to let my mom down,
[13:46] you know, that I that there's this sort
[13:47] of redemption narrative that's kind of
[13:49] been loaded on me and
[13:52] um
[13:53] which has its own
[13:56] thing as well, you know, it's its own
[13:57] thing.
[13:59] >> Wait, it's its own polarization in a
[14:01] sense, isn't it? You know, cuz none of
[14:03] us are that good, are we?
[14:05] Let's face it.
[14:05] >> No comment.
[14:07] >> [laughter]
[14:08] >> And um
[14:10] so, you know, you may you've got your
[14:12] you know, your father's in a very, very
[14:14] aggressive, at least very I felt a sort
[14:16] of sympathy for him as well.
[14:18] Um
[14:19] It's a a more extreme version of
[14:22] experiences that many people have where
[14:24] you know, it's very easy to feel
[14:25] slighted and if you're insecure and then
[14:28] you mask that with lots of shame and
[14:30] aggressive that that's not unusual.
[14:33] But you know, it's quite a a figure to
[14:34] have as a father. And then your your
[14:36] brother's heroin addiction, your your
[14:39] uncle's kind of vain glory about um
[14:43] prison.
[14:44] How did you get from
[14:45] I mean, it's very interesting I think
[14:46] you ended up in prison,
[14:48] you know, but by a different route. How
[14:50] did you end up in prison by a different
[14:51] route?
[14:53] >> Um I mean, it was always a a
[14:55] preoccupation I suppose, you know, it
[14:57] was always like
[14:59] especially cuz there was that thing you
[15:01] know, my brother just I'd meet him at
[15:03] the gate on a Friday when he'd get out
[15:05] and he just wouldn't want to talk to me
[15:06] about it, you know, he was like, I don't
[15:08] I don't want you to know about this,
[15:09] which of course meant I went and watched
[15:11] Scum by Alan Clarke or I went and
[15:13] watched Oz and I just watched these
[15:15] really like graphic violent prison
[15:17] things.
[15:18] So, it was always a preoccupation and
[15:20] then
[15:21] you You my life changed a lot in my of
[15:23] mid to late teens when I I left school
[15:25] with two GCSEs and and ended up kind of
[15:28] going back and getting into philosophy
[15:30] just through a a great relationship with
[15:32] some teachers.
[15:34] And um
[15:37] And then at university, I think
[15:39] the strange thing about philosophy is
[15:40] cuz it's so analytical and it's so it it
[15:44] promotes this kind of disinterested form
[15:46] of inquiry where you kind of leave your
[15:48] self at the door.
[15:50] Um
[15:52] I had this kind of cultural mobility.
[15:54] Uh
[15:55] But there there was real like loss in
[15:57] that as well, you know, there were there
[15:59] was some that that the sort of things
[16:01] that you learn
[16:02] surviving the world that I was surviving
[16:04] growing up weren't assets anymore, you
[16:06] know, instead you needed to know about
[16:07] Bertrand Russell or you needed to know
[16:08] about Wittgenstein. You needed to know
[16:09] about these things.
[16:11] Um and then and then I remember in my
[16:13] mid-20s I heard there were these
[16:15] academic philosophers who were going
[16:17] into prison teaching. And I just I felt
[16:20] so
[16:20] >> upset.
[16:22] >> You know, that the thing I had given up.
[16:24] >> Mhm.
[16:25] >> Now they [ __ ] had it.
[16:27] Do you know what I mean? Like
[16:29] what's like
[16:31] I And so it was with a certain
[16:33] resentment, actually. I was like
[16:36] can I do this, please?
[16:38] Um
[16:39] >> Well, you are better qualified to do it.
[16:42] >> Or worse qualified depending on your
[16:44] interpretation. But but somehow
[16:46] something I'd given up, I was seeing
[16:49] handed back to me by someone else and
[16:51] that's painful.
[16:53] And And so I just thought, you know, why
[16:55] don't I why don't I try this? And And
[16:58] then the first prison I worked in
[17:00] was Belmarsh, the maximum security
[17:02] prison here. Bit of a baptism of fire.
[17:05] Uh but that was 10 years ago. I think
[17:07] I've worked in about 35 prisons since.
[17:10] >> But you know, why why philosophy? I
[17:12] mean, you could have done lit crit, you
[17:14] could have done you know, lots of other
[17:16] things. It it it's striking, isn't it,
[17:18] that you had this your life gave birth
[17:20] to lots of questions about morality,
[17:23] about masculinity, about violence, about
[17:28] You know, one of the things you always
[17:29] feel I I always feel when I, you know,
[17:31] look at
[17:33] stories like this is it could have been
[17:34] any of us. You know, the you know, all
[17:36] you need to do be doing is be stolen as
[17:38] a baby and, you know,
[17:40] raised by a gang and guess what? You You
[17:43] know, you wouldn't be reading Victor
[17:44] Stein and you wouldn't be going to see
[17:47] Sense and Sensibility, you know. Um
[17:49] you know, you wouldn't be worrying about
[17:51] various things. You'd be doing that, you
[17:52] know.
[17:53] So,
[17:55] one of the great questions is not your
[17:56] fault if you see what I mean. You You
[17:58] know, you you become a natural product
[18:00] of your conditioning. Um
[18:04] So, you you know, somehow you your life
[18:06] sort of presented you
[18:08] very strongly with questions right from
[18:10] the beginning. Um and it, you know, it
[18:12] can't quite be a happenstance that you
[18:14] end up doing philosophy, which is what
[18:16] philosophers do primarily is ask
[18:18] questions, isn't it?
[18:19] >> Yeah, I think I think um
[18:23] you know, I I I think it's it's very
[18:25] like fine. It's very subtle what
[18:27] philosophy is and and what it isn't. And
[18:29] um
[18:30] it's so different from something like
[18:31] debating. You know, you kind of argue
[18:33] for a position and I think philosophy
[18:36] some something about philosophical
[18:38] engagement is like you're you're always
[18:39] aware of the plurality in the world, the
[18:42] plurality of ideas, the fact that your
[18:45] idea sits in tension with another.
[18:48] And and there's something about
[18:50] straddling worlds,
[18:52] uh which is what I felt like I was
[18:54] doing, you know, going in and out of
[18:56] prison and
[18:57] and and stuff like that as a as a kid,
[18:59] you know, visiting family that
[19:01] life just didn't exist on one level and
[19:04] I think philosophy really honors that.
[19:06] >> Yeah.
[19:06] >> Um and then yeah, you know, questions
[19:09] like
[19:10] the the problem of moral luck in
[19:12] philosophy, you know, that we're
[19:14] responsible for
[19:16] ourselves and our choices, but who we
[19:18] are, our temperament, where we grow up,
[19:20] the kind of conditioning we receive, the
[19:22] outcomes of our choices, there's so much
[19:24] randomness in that.
[19:26] Um and
[19:28] that to me just it was such a great
[19:31] place to work through this
[19:34] sentiment I had, I think,
[19:37] that came out of my relationship with my
[19:38] brother, that, you know,
[19:40] he's been to prison a dozen times.
[19:43] I've only ever been to prison with sort
[19:45] of keys on my belt.
[19:47] And yet we're brothers and we're
[19:49] related. And just this feeling,
[19:51] unshakeable feeling, really undeniable
[19:54] feeling that each of us could have been
[19:56] anybody else.
[19:58] Just just how kind of
[20:00] frighteningly contingent life is. And
[20:03] philosophy is a place where you can pour
[20:05] those
[20:07] thoughts and you can work through them
[20:09] and
[20:09] and and you know, I spoke about kind of
[20:11] obsessive obsession ality, kind of OCD.
[20:15] Again, it's a great it's a great place
[20:17] for all of that to kind of
[20:19] to move somewhere as well.
[20:22] >> Well, it's interesting cuz just thinking
[20:23] from a Buddhist lens for a minute, you
[20:24] know, that
[20:26] Buddhism would
[20:27] would would really emphasize taking
[20:29] really emphasize taking responsibility
[20:31] for your actions. It doesn't talk so
[20:33] much about the conditions that you arise
[20:36] out of it. So,
[20:37] it very I mean, I think because Buddhism
[20:39] is always addressing the individual,
[20:41] it's very strongly saying
[20:43] that your sense of your agency is never
[20:46] a zero. I mean, that's
[20:48] that's how the philosopher Charles
[20:49] Taylor puts it, which I thought was a a
[20:50] good way of putting it, is that
[20:52] you know, your agency can feel like it's
[20:54] a zero. You can feel like you have to
[20:56] behave in the way you do. And often we
[20:59] all feel that at one time or another,
[21:00] don't we? You don't doesn't need to take
[21:02] you to prison. Um but often we feel that
[21:04] I just couldn't behave any other way.
[21:06] Buddhism has always wanted to say,
[21:09] "That's not quite true." How would you
[21:11] square that with It's tricky isn't it?
[21:13] We I want to We'll get onto this a bit
[21:15] more later on, but
[21:17] this whole question of
[21:19] how do you have responsibility and do
[21:21] justice to conditions? Because you know,
[21:24] um if we you know, if I'd been smuggled
[21:26] away
[21:27] and brought up by a gang I'd be a I
[21:29] wouldn't be this guy, you know, um
[21:31] it's very difficult to balance both.
[21:34] >> Yeah. Yeah, um
[21:38] I mean I think there's two problems with
[21:42] There's two threats to the idea of moral
[21:44] responsibility. One is the kind of moral
[21:46] luck I was talking about just now that
[21:49] um
[21:51] the margins are small there but for the
[21:53] grace of God go I, you know, I think I
[21:55] think we have an instinctive sense of
[21:56] that.
[21:57] Uh and the other is the problem of
[21:59] determinism that actually what if free
[22:03] will is just entirely
[22:05] illusory? What if it's just a
[22:08] It's it's just a fantasm in our
[22:09] consciousness, but actually we're just
[22:11] we're just a playing out of atoms and
[22:14] we're just we're just a cog in the
[22:15] machine and actually we don't have any
[22:17] free will.
[22:19] And they're both quite scary and and and
[22:20] they both can be very convincing. Um
[22:23] I think the implication is different in
[22:25] both cases. I think
[22:27] um if if we have no free will and if
[22:29] determinism is true, then we have to
[22:32] live in the world
[22:34] with an illusion
[22:35] that we know is an illusion, but we
[22:37] can't shake it as an illusion. And so we
[22:38] become quite split and quite alienated
[22:41] from ourselves.
[22:43] Whereas if if moral luck is true,
[22:46] it the message that follows on the back
[22:49] of that for me is just just be a bit
[22:51] kinder.
[22:52] Just like suspend judgment a bit more
[22:54] like they're probably having a really
[22:57] bad day
[22:58] or like a bad lifetime or whatever like
[23:01] just um
[23:03] so I so I can kind of integrate that
[23:05] more
[23:06] um
[23:08] and I think that in that situation you
[23:11] there is always room for agency.
[23:12] >> Yeah.
[23:14] Seems an essential thing to
[23:16] to keep coming back to that isn't it
[23:18] there is agency even if it feels like
[23:20] there is nothing.
[23:22] >> There is but
[23:24] you walk down the landing of a prison uh
[23:26] or you see and hear the life stories in
[23:30] there.
[23:30] >> Yeah.
[23:31] >> You know an awful lot of people in
[23:32] prison um
[23:34] just growing up in in the most adverse
[23:36] conditions
[23:38] um and will go back into those
[23:41] conditions when they leave
[23:43] and
[23:45] there is a kind of holding people to
[23:48] account
[23:49] which seems so
[23:52] blind
[23:53] >> Mhm.
[23:53] >> and
[23:55] unaware and even cruel actually so
[23:58] >> Yeah.
[24:00] >> The the job is to remain alive to what
[24:03] someone's level of responsibility is
[24:06] rather than dogmatic to
[24:08] >> I mean let's come back I want to keep
[24:10] keep on exploring that but let's come
[24:12] back to your story as well cuz what I
[24:14] mean it's actually rather brave I think
[24:16] going to teach philosophy in prisons um
[24:19] I mean what you do is you walk into a
[24:20] room and you
[24:22] mostly these guys come and sit in a
[24:24] circle of chairs and you pose a
[24:26] philosophical question to them. As I say
[24:29] philosophers pretty much ask questions
[24:31] generally. Ask questions of where other
[24:34] people don't see questions to be asked.
[24:36] That's one of the exciting things about
[24:37] philosophy is
[24:39] you didn't realize that
[24:41] there's a question here to be asked and
[24:42] a philosopher a good one will ask the
[24:44] question.
[24:45] You are getting people you know
[24:47] some very dangerous people as well in a
[24:49] room
[24:50] and saying I don't know here's what
[24:52] Schopenhauer says he says that we're all
[24:54] if it it's best way to think is that
[24:55] we're all in prison. Then my new lot you
[24:58] know, I'm not sure how I'd feel about
[24:59] that if I was actually in prison. It's
[25:01] It's
[25:02] You know, like, "Okay, I get it. What
[25:04] What has Schopenhauer been doing?" Um
[25:07] So, I
[25:08] How was it How did it feel the first
[25:10] time you went cuz it's quite I think
[25:11] it's quite a brave thing to do. I'm not
[25:14] I'm not sure I could do it.
[25:16] >> Yeah, I mean I mean in the book
[25:19] uh
[25:19] You know, there's a version of this book
[25:21] which is sort of written by the com- the
[25:24] company man who is sort of higher Mr.
[25:26] Philosophy and I'm here to save your
[25:28] soul and uh we all know about Socrates
[25:30] now and we're all rehabilitated.
[25:32] >> Yeah.
[25:32] >> I thought that would be a very boring
[25:35] and dishonest book to write. So, really
[25:38] I thought it was much more interesting
[25:39] to write about my failures and since
[25:41] they're so available um
[25:44] uh
[25:45] that's what I did. And you know,
[25:48] I went into Belmarsh
[25:50] and I was with a another teacher uh
[25:54] who's doing a PhD at King's, great guy
[25:56] called Mike Cockshead. And
[25:58] I guess because of my background, it was
[26:01] like
[26:02] I was like looked to as like
[26:05] I was like the muscle in the room or
[26:07] something.
[26:07] >> Mhm.
[26:08] I've never had that problem.
[26:09] >> [laughter]
[26:13] >> He didn't look to me that way for very
[26:15] long, thankfully.
[26:16] Um
[26:17] And you know, I based it so much on my
[26:20] family. I based what You know, we looked
[26:23] at this lesson plan and it's like, "No,
[26:24] don't do that. Don't do that. Red lines
[26:26] through that." You know, my my my uncle
[26:28] couldn't read. You know, my my family
[26:30] haven't really read my book. You know,
[26:31] my my dad wasn't educated like
[26:35] uh And then you kind of you start
[26:38] teaching and then someone goes, "No,
[26:39] that's that's not what Locke said,
[26:41] actually. He was talking about
[26:42] consciousness not memory." And you're
[26:44] like, "Oh, I've I've lowballed these
[26:47] guys, you know." And
[26:49] these guys come from all over the world
[26:51] and all kinds of backgrounds and he's
[26:53] got a PhD and you know and
[26:56] and you realize
[26:59] that
[27:01] in my head there was prison.
[27:04] And then there was this prison and that
[27:06] prison
[27:07] and that prisoner and that prisoner and
[27:09] they're all unique and they're all
[27:10] different and there is no such thing as
[27:12] the prison or the prisoner.
[27:14] Um and you know it it sounds so obvious
[27:17] but it was one of those things I had to
[27:18] learn the hard way.
[27:20] Um
[27:21] So yeah, so I've been told a few times.
[27:23] I've been
[27:24] been corrected on my philosophical
[27:26] knowledge.
[27:27] Um
[27:29] But yeah, it it
[27:31] it it
[27:32] you know, some people engage with it,
[27:33] some people find it boring, some people
[27:35] just will do anything to get out of
[27:36] their cell cuz they've been banged up
[27:38] for 23 hours a day over the weekend. But
[27:40] I think the people who do connect with
[27:42] it, you know, often if you're in prison,
[27:44] you're you're in a kind of crisis,
[27:46] you're in a spiritual crisis and
[27:49] uh prison doesn't offer a lot, you know,
[27:51] it doesn't and it's offering less and
[27:53] less, you know, there's more and more
[27:55] bang up, there's less meaningful
[27:56] activity.
[27:57] Uh so someone going like, oh, we're
[27:59] going to talk about uh
[28:01] whether we're responsible for our
[28:02] choices today or we're going to talk
[28:04] about consequences or we're going to
[28:05] talk about whether any of us are free or
[28:08] if you're the same person you were 7
[28:10] years ago. Like there is like a hunger
[28:13] to like, yeah, okay, I'll have that
[28:14] conversation. I I kind of need to have
[28:16] that conversation now.
[28:18] >> Mhm. That's really striking. I mean I
[28:20] want to draw out something from there I
[28:21] didn't you know, that I think I haven't
[28:23] seen quite so clearly although you do
[28:25] say in the book which is
[28:27] it's so easy to sort of somehow we've
[28:29] got prison dramas in our you know, like
[28:31] >> Yeah.
[28:32] >> we've just got a sort of
[28:33] bad TV of prison.
[28:35] >> Yeah.
[28:36] >> Which kind of makes them all the you
[28:38] know, all the a generic prisoner if you
[28:40] see what I mean. Well, it it doesn't
[28:42] always but somehow I'm left with a
[28:43] generic prisoner.
[28:44] >> Yeah, I mean that was a real I really
[28:46] felt the responsibility of this when we
[28:48] were shooting waiting for the hour
[28:50] actually and we were thinking about the
[28:52] kind of design of it and
[28:54] the color palette and the room and how
[28:56] we were going to light it and
[28:58] everything of
[28:59] um and just the tone and the energy of
[29:01] it, you know, if if you wrote a TV drama
[29:05] about schools or hospitals or public
[29:08] spaces that the general public just
[29:10] visit every day.
[29:12] And if it was really over raw and
[29:14] hyperbolic and all the teachers were
[29:16] really nasty and strict or whatever,
[29:18] people would they have a nose for that
[29:19] and they would switch off in 60 seconds.
[29:22] If you do it about a prison, people will
[29:24] go, "Whoa, that's what prison's like."
[29:27] And it's not their fault, it's because
[29:29] they can't test it with their
[29:30] experience. They can't go into prison
[29:32] themselves. And over the last 15-20
[29:35] years it's been increasingly hard for
[29:37] journalists to get access to prison.
[29:40] So prisons are this they're behind a
[29:41] wall
[29:43] and they become a great projective
[29:45] canvas because of that. So all of our
[29:47] deepest fears about violence, chaos, our
[29:52] moral kind of dualism about good and
[29:54] evil, all of it just gets thrown onto
[29:57] that canvas, I think.
[29:58] Um
[29:59] and
[30:01] you know, prisons do have violence and
[30:03] they can be chaotic and all of those
[30:04] things do exist, but I think the main
[30:06] thing about prisons
[30:08] is they're just so dreary. You know,
[30:10] they're so boring, they're so stale.
[30:13] Nothing happening, everything's
[30:15] late or canceled. There's sound of
[30:18] daytime TV and
[30:21] you know, that's that's one of the more
[30:24] kind of immediate feelings and and and
[30:26] that's one of the things people are
[30:27] surviving as well as just boredom,
[30:29] inactivity, meaninglessness. So so that
[30:32] was really important to
[30:34] it's it's harder to get across in prose,
[30:36] I think, that, but I was really pleased
[30:38] with how we kind of captured that. So so
[30:41] watch my show, it's really boring.
[30:44] >> [laughter]
[30:45] >> Is it Is it Is there a way in which you
[30:47] can sort of as it were take us into
[30:48] prison just now? You know, sort of
[30:50] what's the what's the expe- cuz I don't
[30:53] I'm I've never been into a prison and uh
[30:56] >> Yeah, I mean
[30:57] >> You're right. I think it is like a
[30:58] shadow It's weird how it's um
[31:01] You know, I've never been to prison. I
[31:02] hardly know anyone who's been in prison.
[31:04] I know some, but not very many.
[31:06] And yet it is like this shadow. Like an
[31:08] other world. We've got this world and
[31:10] then there's the prison world it seems
[31:11] to me, which as you say we play out
[31:14] various sort of dramas in relationship
[31:15] to It's amazing how many prison
[31:18] There's a new one now, isn't there?
[31:19] Time. Um amazing how many prison things
[31:23] there are. Films, series, and so on. We
[31:25] all kind of weirdly fascinated by it.
[31:28] >> Yeah,
[31:29] um
[31:30] you know, to go into prison
[31:33] If you go into to Belmarsh, which I
[31:35] mentioned, you know, Belmarsh was built
[31:36] 30 years ago. Um the corridors are wide.
[31:39] There's lots of natural light. You know,
[31:41] it's it's designed by someone who's
[31:43] trying to understand security and
[31:45] surveillance.
[31:47] Pentonville was built 180 years ago.
[31:49] It's
[31:50] full of rats and cockroaches. The cell
[31:52] doors are low because people used to be
[31:54] shorter in the time that it was built,
[31:56] you know, it's
[31:57] um
[31:58] but
[31:59] you know, some of these places that have
[32:01] offer more human dignity than others. Um
[32:04] but I think
[32:06] there's
[32:07] One of the reasons I liked philosophy
[32:10] uh and liked and liked writing this book
[32:12] about philosophy wasn't because I wanted
[32:13] to sort of
[32:15] really understand, you know, if
[32:17] Wittgenstein was correct in his sort of
[32:19] theory of language. And
[32:21] it was because I I I I found was asking
[32:23] people philosophical questions
[32:26] in this setting
[32:28] uh people kind of
[32:30] tell you so much about themselves in the
[32:31] way that they answer these questions.
[32:33] And they tell you so much about their
[32:35] circumstance and what they're surviving.
[32:36] So,
[32:38] um a real key moment for me in that,
[32:40] which we talk about in the book and in
[32:42] the show as well, is um
[32:43] the frog and the scorpion.
[32:45] Uh so, um for those of you uh who um
[32:50] would like to be reminded of the frog
[32:51] and the scorpion. Uh there's uh a frog
[32:53] sitting by the river uh on a uh
[32:56] afternoon and the scorpion
[32:59] a scorpion comes up to him and says,
[33:00] "Would you please ferry me across the
[33:01] river on your back? I need to get home
[33:03] before it gets dark."
[33:04] Frog thinks about this and he's a little
[33:06] bit cautious, you know, he can see the
[33:08] scorpion's got a stinger.
[33:10] Uh and the scorpion says, "Look, I I
[33:12] know you're afraid, but um
[33:15] I'm not going to sting you because if I
[33:16] sting you, you'll drown and die and then
[33:19] I'll die as well and then I don't want
[33:20] that."
[33:21] Um and the frog thinks, "Well, that does
[33:23] kind of make sense." And so, he takes
[33:25] him on his back and gets into the water
[33:27] and they start swimming.
[33:29] And then the scorpion stings the frog.
[33:31] And as they're
[33:33] going down, the frog says, "Um why did
[33:36] you do that? Now we'll both die."
[33:39] And the scorpion says, "I couldn't help
[33:40] it. It's my nature."
[33:43] And I remember um
[33:45] being in a prison and and telling this
[33:46] story.
[33:47] And I said, "Who's who's to blame for
[33:49] the deaths of frog and the scorpion?"
[33:52] And there was about 12 men in the room
[33:54] and all of them except for one said it
[33:56] was the frog's fault.
[33:59] Um
[34:01] and I thought, "Wow, that's so telling,
[34:02] you know, because
[34:04] these guys are surviving this place
[34:07] and they're probably surviving whatever
[34:08] life they had before that
[34:10] where
[34:11] trust was very low
[34:14] and cynicism was very high
[34:17] and you weren't sure who was a bad
[34:19] actor.
[34:20] And actually, if you get stung, well,
[34:23] that's your fault. You should be
[34:25] smarter.
[34:26] You should have been asking more
[34:27] questions, you know.
[34:28] And that
[34:30] that's how you survived the landing, you
[34:32] know, and and if And if something bad
[34:34] happens to you, well, that's on you,
[34:36] mate.
[34:36] >> Mhm.
[34:37] >> Um and I thought, "Wow, this this really
[34:39] kind of tells me about this world." The
[34:41] guy who thought the frog wasn't to
[34:43] blame, I think was really trying to kind
[34:46] of push through some kind of change in
[34:48] his life saying,
[34:51] you know, "I've come back to prison so
[34:52] many times. I'd really like to change,
[34:55] but if I sort of
[34:57] blame people
[34:59] every time they try and be kind and
[35:00] every time they try and take a chance on
[35:02] someone,
[35:03] well, how am I ever going to get that
[35:04] opportunity to change?"
[35:06] >> Mhm.
[35:06] >> Uh
[35:07] so, maybe the frog's not a mug here.
[35:09] Maybe he was just
[35:12] trying to move the world forward in some
[35:13] way. And And he got a bit of flak from
[35:15] the other guys for that, for being naive
[35:17] or whatever, but
[35:19] Yeah, I I think I think philosophy kind
[35:21] of illuminates so much uh
[35:23] about who we are and where we are.
[35:26] >> I mean, the the book really does
[35:27] actually um
[35:29] give a picture of being in prison, you
[35:32] know? Um
[35:33] And And the landing, the the fear of it.
[35:35] And as you say, the boredom of it, the
[35:37] terrible tedium of it. And it's not just
[35:39] boredom, it's like this
[35:40] grinding tedium. Um
[35:43] >> Really good. Buy it. Yeah. Grinding
[35:45] [laughter] tedium. Yeah.
[35:46] >> Um
[35:47] But um
[35:49] you know, and and and the thing of the
[35:51] We'll have to come to tea in a minute,
[35:52] but um I would like to touch on this the
[35:55] the vulnerable prisoners, you know? The
[35:58] Cuz prisons are extremely hierarchical.
[36:01] Um not just, you know, the
[36:03] the wardens and so on, but the within
[36:05] the prison itself. Um and dangerously
[36:07] hierarchical. Um And you've got a whole
[36:10] section on vulnerable prisoners, um
[36:12] VPs that you call them. Um
[36:15] I I found that very striking and
[36:17] touching and
[36:20] what would I say? Sort of
[36:22] it presents impossible conundrums to me.
[36:25] Um anyway, perhaps you talk a bit about
[36:27] that kind of hierarchical concerns in
[36:29] prison and the
[36:30] the danger of it and then vulnerable
[36:32] prisoners.
[36:33] >> Yeah, it was one of the hardest chapters
[36:34] to write in the book.
[36:36] Uh, you know, I was writing the book
[36:38] around kind of 2019, 2020, 2021.
[36:41] Um,
[36:43] and vulnerable prisoners are people who
[36:44] can't mix with the rest of the
[36:46] mainstream population most of the time
[36:48] because they've committed a sexual
[36:49] offense.
[36:50] Uh, and so they would be a a target on
[36:53] the landing. Sometimes it's because
[36:55] maybe they're
[36:57] they were a police officer on the out or
[37:00] or they've got a debt on the landing and
[37:01] they need to be kept separate, but a lot
[37:03] of the time um,
[37:05] it's because they've committed a sexual
[37:06] offense and
[37:08] you you know,
[37:10] I'll I'll be teaching a class and and as
[37:13] mainstream prisoners are walking past
[37:14] the window, they're just banging the
[37:16] glass and and you've got to like
[37:18] maintain
[37:19] a sincere conversation about Socrates
[37:23] while this like threat of death is like,
[37:26] "I'm going to kill you." And if I ever
[37:27] get And it's like it's a it's a real
[37:29] like
[37:30] uh, confronting situation.
[37:33] Um,
[37:36] is your question about sort of
[37:38] what do we do with this population? How
[37:40] do we regard them like
[37:42] >> Well, yeah, it's got that
[37:44] you know, that some of these people have
[37:45] done ter- really terrible things, you
[37:47] know, that
[37:48] you know, if I if I if I think about
[37:50] like
[37:51] my daughters for instance, you know,
[37:53] it's sort of
[37:54] I end up in one place with it, but you
[37:56] know, when but they're still people
[37:58] um,
[38:00] in a terrible situation themselves and
[38:02] coming from a terrible situation
[38:03] themselves. You've got this
[38:06] We we think we're in a world of from me
[38:07] at least where we're we're wanting to
[38:09] sort of
[38:10] say more and more which side are we
[38:12] going on
[38:13] as if life could ever be that simple.
[38:16] >> Yeah.
[38:17] You know what what taught me a lot about
[38:21] there's a lot to say about that and and
[38:23] you know, in the book I I tried to say
[38:25] it as sensitively as I could.
[38:27] >> Must have been a difficult whole area to
[38:29] explore.
[38:29] >> Yeah, I was so aware of people who've
[38:31] been victims of of those kind of crimes.
[38:35] I was also just aware of just
[38:37] what I didn't know.
[38:41] There's a lot to say about that crime
[38:42] itself.
[38:44] My book isn't that much about crime.
[38:45] It's about prison which
[38:48] and it's about confinement and it's
[38:50] about living together in that space and
[38:52] there's a guy called Billy Moore
[38:56] who was arrested in Thailand and spent
[38:58] time in prison in Thailand. And I I read
[39:00] his memoir and it it kind of told me
[39:02] something a bit about
[39:05] the status game in prison and and and
[39:08] the intense hierarchy in prison which is
[39:10] in Thailand
[39:12] people who commit sexual offenses would
[39:14] were just treated like any other
[39:15] prisoner.
[39:17] But
[39:19] the after
[39:21] when he first got to prison he was
[39:22] amazed by this and and horrified by it.
[39:25] But then someone came into the prison
[39:27] who'd killed their parents or killed
[39:29] their father I think. And that person
[39:31] was
[39:32] they didn't last very long and it was
[39:34] very gruesome.
[39:35] Um
[39:36] and I think I think what I realized is
[39:38] because prison is so hierarchical
[39:40] because it's a so much about the loss of
[39:42] status
[39:44] um
[39:45] it's really important that there's
[39:46] someone below you if if you're in
[39:49] prison. And and the the prisoner on
[39:52] prisoner hatred
[39:54] of people who've committed sexual
[39:56] offenses is is partly to do with the
[39:58] content of their crime.
[40:00] But it is also partly just to do with
[40:02] this social setup that we've created
[40:04] which is so hierarchical that if it
[40:07] wasn't them it would be someone else. It
[40:09] it it they're kind of a placeholder. And
[40:12] I think separating those two things
[40:15] feels important for moving forward,
[40:17] yeah.
[40:18] >> Mhm.
[40:21] Yes, and
[40:24] I I think one of the
[40:26] I would have a cup of tea and sing and
[40:27] then we'll think more about masculinity,
[40:29] I think, but one of the questions for me
[40:31] from the book is
[40:33] this very, very difficult question of
[40:35] how do you try when it's a theme in the
[40:37] book, how do you try and help people
[40:40] um and be human and humane and see the
[40:45] best in people and to see people can
[40:47] change, which
[40:48] you know, Buddhism is radical in that.
[40:50] It would
[40:51] always say that everyone can change. You
[40:54] but Buddhism doesn't have a sense of
[40:56] being unredeemed or unredeemable. Um
[40:59] there are some Christian gnostics who
[41:01] believe that eventually the
[41:03] the devil is even saved, um but it's not
[41:05] very common in Christianity. Um but
[41:08] Buddhism would
[41:09] it it's very, very clear that there's
[41:12] there's no place is in unredeemable. You
[41:14] can be saved.
[41:16] So, and Buddhists
[41:18] can be really good with that. We can be
[41:19] also to be sentimental about that. Um
[41:22] it's it's very difficult to to to sort
[41:24] of honor
[41:26] the fact that human beings really can
[41:28] change and to
[41:29] I've seen people change from very, very
[41:32] difficult
[41:33] very, very difficult indeed
[41:34] circumstances and it's very difficult
[41:36] for them to change. It's difficult to
[41:38] help them sometimes, but they can
[41:39] change.
[41:40] How do we balance that? And one of the
[41:42] themes of the book is how do we balance
[41:43] that with
[41:45] a really intelligent skepticism about
[41:47] how people actually are.
[41:49] >> Yeah.
[41:49] >> Your book is an as you were saying to me
[41:51] is an is book, not an ought book. This
[41:53] is what poet This is not poet. Where did
[41:55] I get poet from? This is from what
[41:56] prisoners are like, it's not what they
[41:57] should be like.
[41:59] But I wonder whether we can say
[42:00] something before tea about this problem
[42:02] about
[42:02] >> Yeah.
[42:03] >> change and not change.
[42:04] >> So So my next book is kind of about
[42:06] that. This This book I just wanted to
[42:07] kind of describe the world of prison. I
[42:10] wanted to the way it feels, smells, the
[42:13] textures, the emotional reality of it. I
[42:14] didn't want to say, "Oh, by the way,
[42:16] I've got the solution, you know, if you
[42:18] if you look read the epilogue, like it's
[42:19] all there."
[42:21] Um
[42:22] but my next book is is a more kind of
[42:23] moral search, a moral reckoning with
[42:25] these questions. Your question is quite
[42:27] right, and it it's a frog and a scorpion
[42:29] question, all right? Because if you
[42:31] think everyone is a scorpion,
[42:33] you you will have a landing full of
[42:34] scorpions. If If you don't trust people,
[42:36] then the opportunity for moral growth
[42:40] it doesn't start.
[42:42] But if you trust people sentimentally,
[42:45] uh
[42:47] there can be real consequences to that
[42:49] in certain cases.
[42:51] Um
[42:52] I was reading a a book um a couple of
[42:55] years ago, The Confidence Game uh by
[42:58] Maria Konnikova, a New Yorker writer who
[43:00] talks about con artistry, and she she
[43:02] she unpacks the psychology of the con,
[43:06] and particularly the psychology of the
[43:07] mark, the one who gets conned, and
[43:10] and how it in these quite
[43:12] extreme examples, often they're very
[43:14] active
[43:16] in in the dance, you know?
[43:19] And she asked the question of who can be
[43:21] conned?
[43:23] Is it uh you know, uh
[43:25] men or women or old people or young
[43:26] people? Is there a sort of demographic?
[43:28] And she says pretty much everyone can be
[43:29] conned if you're in a period of
[43:31] vulnerability, if you've just been
[43:32] through a breakup, or you've just moved
[43:34] house, or something like that. But she
[43:36] said there is there is a
[43:37] a
[43:38] trait which makes you more con-
[43:40] >> connable.
[43:42] >> Um and that is um how strong your belief
[43:45] is in the possibility of redemption.
[43:49] Um
[43:50] and you know, you she looks at these
[43:52] cases of people who
[43:55] it's so clear they're being conned. It's
[43:56] so, you know,
[43:57] there's a con artist in there who's sold
[43:59] the Eiffel Tower twice
[44:01] to people. It's It's so obvious. And you
[44:04] know, um these people are being fleeced
[44:06] for their savings, or whatever or just
[44:09] all the falling for these kinds of
[44:10] deception. And often when when we're
[44:13] being conned, we're not we're not
[44:15] looking at the person in front of us and
[44:16] assessing them
[44:18] based on the evidence. We're looking
[44:21] kind of up here at our worldview.
[44:23] >> Yeah, cool.
[44:24] >> And the worldview is I want people to be
[44:26] good.
[44:27] I don't want any I just don't want to
[44:29] believe people are that bad, you know? I
[44:31] don't want to succumb to cynicism that
[44:33] feels dead. And so they're trying to
[44:35] preserve that rather than
[44:38] have a kind of evidence-based approach.
[44:40] And what And I would say the same is
[44:41] true for prisons of like actually
[44:44] we need to look at the individuals. And
[44:48] most prison security is just way over
[44:51] the top. It It's to It's to deal with,
[44:54] you know, the 10 or 20% of
[44:57] dangerous people in that prison.
[45:02] The other sort of 70, 80, 90% could live
[45:06] in much lower security conditions with
[45:08] much more meaningful activity, much more
[45:11] relationship building, you know,
[45:13] therapeutic intervention or whatever and
[45:15] and it would be fine. The incidents
[45:16] would be very low. It's just
[45:20] the there's a hyperbolic attitude to
[45:22] security which means we
[45:24] we go over the top.
[45:26] >> It's interesting, isn't it? Cuz so so
[45:28] often prison seems to be just an extreme
[45:31] version of the world because, you know,
[45:33] our world is going to be becoming hyper
[45:35] security conscious and, you know, like
[45:37] because there's a risk that some people
[45:39] could do this, everyone's acting as if
[45:41] that risk is actually real, you know,
[45:43] it's like it's like saying, you know,
[45:45] there are pickpockets in London, so
[45:47] watch out. So before you know it, you
[45:49] start to turn everyone into a potential
[45:50] pickpocket and create a a terrible
[45:52] world. Or I've seen people be very
[45:55] sentimental and silly about
[45:57] what is obviously, you know,
[46:00] questionable. And so that that that
[46:03] they seem real themes in modern life,
[46:05] don't they? We We seem to be
[46:08] wanted to go one way or the other in
[46:09] modern life very much in in a way that
[46:11] it's very very difficult for people to
[46:13] say there might be a bit of both needed.
[46:15] >> Yes. Yeah.
[46:17] >> The really stand another standard area,
[46:19] of course, is the whole question of men.
[46:21] Um
[46:22] 95% of people in prison are men.
[46:25] Um
[46:26] It's a tricky moment now at the at the
[46:28] moment to talk about men or women,
[46:30] gender generally. Um
[46:33] I can never remember whether I'm
[46:34] supposed to say sex or gender, for
[46:35] instance. You know, the even the words
[46:37] have become for me rather difficult. I
[46:39] can never remember which one I'm
[46:40] supposed to
[46:41] say, but
[46:42] you know,
[46:43] and I I can understand that because,
[46:46] you know,
[46:47] many people are now exploring feeling
[46:50] that they don't feel that they like that
[46:51] they belong to particular gender. And um
[46:54] a lot of those people have been had to
[46:56] experience quite a lot of hatred and
[46:58] prejudice. So, I can understand why the
[47:01] instinct is to just stay away from the
[47:03] area.
[47:05] But that that percent 95% of people in
[47:08] prison are men rather goes against that.
[47:11] And I I personally feel that it's a
[47:13] I'd like us to be able to talk about
[47:16] men much more, actually. I I I think we
[47:18] need to talk about women more, as well.
[47:20] Um but I think we need to My own belief
[47:23] is that we need to
[47:25] understand
[47:26] men's psychology, even men's sexuality.
[47:29] I don't mean whether they go straight. I
[47:30] mean,
[47:31] um sexuality in the broadest sense. I
[47:33] think we need to understand that more.
[47:36] And I think when we look at look at even
[47:38] glance, as it were, into prison and see
[47:40] that statistic, that that confirms that
[47:43] to me. Um
[47:44] that there are particular issues
[47:47] that men face, which my own instinct,
[47:49] and you know, of course, I might be
[47:50] wrong, but it's difficult to generalize,
[47:52] but
[47:53] my own instinct is that there's
[47:57] that there's not much cultural sympathy
[47:59] for men.
[48:00] Um That that even at times there's a
[48:02] sort of cynical
[48:03] attitude to men
[48:05] as if men are almost inevitably toxic or
[48:07] something.
[48:08] Um I have met
[48:10] some bad men in my life, not very many
[48:12] actually. I mean probably I wouldn't
[48:13] here at the Buddhist center but
[48:16] probably meet them more in prison.
[48:18] But yeah, I just I I thought it'd be
[48:20] this is a good opportunity for us to
[48:22] start to explore your experience of men
[48:25] in prison.
[48:26] I don't know whether that sets you up to
[48:28] think.
[48:28] >> Yeah, it's funny cuz I I started writing
[48:30] the book in 2018 and
[48:34] when the book came out the the the
[48:37] conversation around it was about prison
[48:40] mainly.
[48:41] And then when we put that on screen in
[48:44] 2026, a lot had happened in the meantime
[48:47] culturally and the the lens through
[48:50] which it was interpreted was oh this is
[48:52] about masculinity.
[48:54] Um so it's really strange because the
[48:56] object hadn't really changed but the
[48:58] culture had changed in terms of how it
[49:00] was interpreting it. Uh and you know,
[49:02] we've had
[49:03] uh
[49:04] things like the manosphere, Andrew Tate,
[49:07] we had
[49:08] um
[49:09] TV show came out last year, Adolescence,
[49:12] which I think
[49:13] was so big that it became the kind of
[49:16] reference point for other things that
[49:17] came out about it but um I mean we we'd
[49:20] completely finalized the script on
[49:23] Waiting for the Out by the time
[49:24] Adolescence came out so
[49:26] we didn't know anything about that and
[49:27] we were just doing our thing. So it's
[49:29] it's one of these things of like
[49:31] we each have our particular experience
[49:33] and then there's this social political
[49:37] interpretation of that which can
[49:40] which it
[49:41] they're both true but they it can feel a
[49:43] bit strange because
[49:46] my story is is not I didn't sit down and
[49:49] go right, okay, which abstract noun will
[49:51] it be? This one? This Oh, masculinity.
[49:53] Okay, yeah. Well, you know, going to
[49:54] write a sort of thing on masculinity. It
[49:56] was just
[49:57] I had this very unresolved experience
[50:01] around my father and my brother and my
[50:03] uncle and it was connected to this place
[50:05] and
[50:06] I went to work in that place and and
[50:08] then I ended up writing about it and,
[50:10] you know,
[50:12] as strange as it sounds, I didn't
[50:13] realize it was about masculinity till
[50:15] much later because you're much more in
[50:17] the kind of immediacy of your
[50:19] experience. So,
[50:20] so um
[50:22] so, you know, people ask me questions a
[50:24] lot this year about masculinity and I
[50:26] sort of think, "Well, why are you asking
[50:27] me?" And
[50:28] and they say, "Well, cuz you wrote this
[50:30] book." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah." Um
[50:32] uh so,
[50:34] yeah, it's it's a it's a very real
[50:35] thing, you know, it's it's a real thing
[50:37] for me personally. Uh that kind of
[50:39] executioner figure in the head, that
[50:41] kind of obsessionality around, you know,
[50:44] am I going to commit a crime? Am I Am I
[50:46] a bad person or whatever? I don't know
[50:48] if that would have quite been the same
[50:51] if I'd been a girl growing up.
[50:54] I think there was something about men
[50:57] and being a boy and that journey.
[51:00] Um I I have met women who've had parents
[51:03] in prison and and they definitely have
[51:05] their own stuff to reckon with and
[51:07] I'm not It's sort of evaluating
[51:09] comparatively. I'm just saying it it may
[51:10] have had a different quality to it.
[51:12] Um I I And so, that's kind of the cards
[51:15] I got dealt and the and the thing I had
[51:17] to work through.
[51:18] Um
[51:21] I'm I mean, it's
[51:24] it's
[51:25] the current reckoning with masculinity.
[51:26] It It does feel a little bit like
[51:28] something is happening on a large
[51:30] cultural scale, you know, around kind of
[51:32] Me Too and things like that, which I I
[51:35] felt like I was going through almost
[51:37] more privately when I was like 15 or 16
[51:40] or something. So, in a sense, I I
[51:41] welcome the the change in conversation.
[51:44] I feel like
[51:46] what we need to confront all of this
[51:47] stuff.
[51:49] Um
[51:50] But in some cases it it it's um
[51:55] A
[51:55] lot of the people I work with feel like
[51:58] there's there's no sympathy for them,
[51:59] you know, partly because of their
[52:01] gender.
[52:02] And then and then very often they belong
[52:04] to kind of marginalized groups anyway in
[52:06] terms of race or class or, you know,
[52:09] a huge percentage of young people in
[52:11] prison grew up in care, you know, they
[52:13] don't they don't have anybody. So
[52:16] And I think I think I think when you
[52:17] don't have anybody your identity labels
[52:21] can be something you kind of
[52:23] reach for
[52:25] and care about much more passionately.
[52:29] Yeah, so men or masculinity it's it's
[52:33] it's really important in in what I'm
[52:34] doing. It's it is really central even
[52:36] though it's sort of taken me a while to
[52:37] realize that.
[52:39] >> And
[52:41] have you got
[52:42] Did you end up with a broader sort of
[52:45] thoughts about
[52:47] masculinity because
[52:48] um
[52:50] I would you know, I was quoting to you
[52:51] something that Camille Paglia said he's
[52:53] very very controversial writer and he
[52:55] should be canceled nowadays but she used
[52:57] to write in the 90s and she said um
[53:00] masculinity is risky and elusive.
[53:03] And um
[53:05] my experience is that
[53:07] being a man is something isn't a given.
[53:10] Um it's something that somehow needs to
[53:12] be
[53:13] achieved or that's very strong sense and
[53:17] of course the instinct now say well, we
[53:18] can deconstruct that, you know, that's a
[53:20] cultural given and it's
[53:22] But I I'm I'm not convinced it is. I
[53:25] think it's a very deep instinct that men
[53:27] have that um
[53:29] you might or might not be a man. Like I
[53:31] grew up in a small town in Warwickshire,
[53:34] you know, a gay man and um
[53:36] for me the more interesting question
[53:38] about being gay now is to do with being
[53:40] a a not to being being gay. You know,
[53:42] being gay just seems to me to like
[53:44] whether you've got curly hair or not.
[53:46] Um
[53:47] but the the the difficult thing for me
[53:50] is did I qualify as a man?
[53:52] Um
[53:53] And you know, it's easy to think well,
[53:55] we we kind of want to dismiss that
[53:56] question now and think well, you know,
[53:57] we can we don't need to. But I my
[54:00] instinct is that you do need that there
[54:02] is something that is to be achieved. And
[54:04] the guys in prison that you write about
[54:07] they're acting out that in a very
[54:09] chaotic and kind of gross way in a
[54:11] certain sense, but
[54:13] I felt a kind of sympathy for their
[54:15] desire to find some sort of dignity as a
[54:17] man. And I mean that in a in a very
[54:19] gendered way, you know.
[54:21] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean there there are, you
[54:23] know, depending on your theory of crime
[54:26] and punishment and what we're actually
[54:27] doing when we lock people up um on a
[54:29] kind of sociological or social
[54:32] psychological level. Um you know, one
[54:35] view is that
[54:36] um
[54:38] we don't we don't bang up men, we bang
[54:40] up failed masculinities. You know, we
[54:42] create a a social and cultural and
[54:44] economic climate that says you have to
[54:47] succeed and acquire wealth and
[54:51] partners and and whatever. And um
[54:54] if if you don't do that,
[54:57] you know,
[54:58] we're going to put you in prison. I I I
[54:59] think America's a really
[55:01] stark illustration of that case where,
[55:04] you know, these these post-industrial
[55:07] towns, cities, states
[55:09] um
[55:11] where, you know,
[55:13] you know, capitalism is just not working
[55:15] for these people anymore and that they
[55:16] don't have the opportunities to succeed
[55:19] uh legitimately, but they're still
[55:22] judged by whether they succeed or not.
[55:25] Uh I mean, America has
[55:27] 5% of the world's population, but it has
[55:30] 25% of the world's prisoners.
[55:32] >> Yeah, well.
[55:33] >> Um and and this is
[55:36] one of the wealthiest, most developed
[55:38] nations that has ever existed in the
[55:40] history of humankind, but it has a
[55:42] quarter of prisoners in the world are
[55:45] banged up in America.
[55:46] Um
[55:48] and for me that goes hand in hand with
[55:49] the
[55:50] the the free market
[55:52] economic model that they have the the
[55:54] free market capitalism model. So, it's
[55:56] it's
[55:57] it's not necessarily being a man that's
[55:58] bad, but it's being a failed man that's
[56:00] bad. And it what you say in terms of
[56:02] masculinity
[56:04] being something you can achieve or not.
[56:07] Often we don't regard it as toxic if
[56:10] it's achieved, we regard it as toxic if
[56:12] it's not achieved.
[56:14] That's not to say there's not some
[56:17] very accomplished men who
[56:19] >> Cool.
[56:20] >> don't do very harmful things, of course
[56:22] not. But um
[56:24] yeah, I think I think it again, it's a
[56:26] bit like what I was saying about VPs in
[56:28] the Billy Moore story in Thailand
[56:30] we have to almost see through the
[56:31] content to the form and and and to the
[56:34] status game
[56:35] >> Mhm.
[56:35] >> that's happening, you know? There's that
[56:37] um
[56:39] Norman Mailer
[56:40] line that um two men walk down the
[56:42] street and nod at each other, one of
[56:44] them loses.
[56:46] And
[56:48] that was Mailer's worldview pretty much
[56:50] that masculinity is a game of status and
[56:53] for me to be a man
[56:55] you have to not be, you know, only one
[56:57] of us can win.
[56:58] Um now I don't believe that.
[57:00] >> No.
[57:01] >> But
[57:02] if you were going to believe that
[57:05] prison would be the place
[57:07] where you can
[57:09] foster that belief, you know?
[57:11] Um
[57:13] outside in the Buddhist center, for
[57:16] example, conditions are different and we
[57:18] don't we don't have to play that game or
[57:20] we don't have to play that game quite so
[57:21] crudely, but
[57:23] but that can be the game on the landing,
[57:25] yeah.
[57:25] >> Yeah. And you know, that that
[57:29] I I think that the instinct I I I can't
[57:32] talk for women, but the instinct for men
[57:34] is is to
[57:36] compete.
[57:38] And I think it's a very
[57:39] deep instinct.
[57:41] You can get better at it and you can do
[57:43] it cooperatively. In a way the the aim
[57:45] must be for men to compete cooperatively
[57:48] cuz the the value of competition of
[57:50] course is it brings out the best in you
[57:51] at best. You know, if you want to swim
[57:54] faster, you swim with someone who's
[57:56] better than you.
[57:57] You know, you don't You don't like
[57:59] somebody swimming past you. You know,
[58:01] apparently that's why you can race
[58:02] horses cuz they don't like
[58:04] horses running past them. You know,
[58:06] they're they're instinctively
[58:10] competitive. Um
[58:11] It's just how well you can do it and how
[58:14] reflective you can be about it. But I
[58:16] think that you can't weed it out. Um you
[58:20] know, I've been a bit involved in the
[58:21] poetry world and
[58:23] you know, never mind squash, try poetry
[58:26] for competitive sport. I'm going to
[58:28] You know, even the most sort of
[58:30] apparently sort of sweet worlds, you
[58:32] know, they've got competition written
[58:34] all the way through them.
[58:36] And I think trying to deconstruct that
[58:39] is foolish. I think what we're trying to
[58:41] What I'd like to see us do is get better
[58:43] at doing that in a way that genuinely
[58:45] brings out something good in you rather
[58:47] than
[58:48] It's that awful compete
[58:50] in such as as long as other people lose.
[58:52] That's why cheating is so bad, isn't it?
[58:54] It's because
[58:55] you you you get that you you know, you
[58:57] haven't brought anything out in yourself
[58:59] at all. You know, you It's just this a
[59:01] crude status game and men can do that.
[59:04] Uh
[59:06] But there is something I think hard
[59:08] hardwired is my instinct. I don't know
[59:10] whether that chimes with your
[59:12] experience.
[59:12] >> Well, I I suppose the implication for me
[59:15] is
[59:16] again just just how
[59:18] just how prisons are such poor moral
[59:22] and spiritual environments, you know, in
[59:25] that Um
[59:27] if that is
[59:29] the nature
[59:30] of the men inside there, then actually
[59:33] there's not a lot of opportunity to turn
[59:35] those instincts into something positive.
[59:37] And there's certainly not a lot of
[59:38] opportunity to
[59:39] build something together and cooperate,
[59:41] which is sounds like what you were
[59:42] saying. You can sort of turn that into
[59:44] kind of teams and a mutual sense of
[59:46] betterment, you know. Um
[59:49] I mean, uh you know, that there was this
[59:51] word that entered the dictionary last
[59:53] year in shitification.
[59:54] >> Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah.
[59:55] >> of in shitification. I I I was chatting
[59:58] with a a friend the other day and we
[59:59] were talking about just there's less
[1:00:01] meaningful activity in prisons, there's
[1:00:03] more bang up, there's more
[1:00:04] administration, there's less human
[1:00:06] contact, human relationship.
[1:00:09] Oh, prisons have been in shitified. And
[1:00:13] you'd think they were already sort of
[1:00:14] sufficiently in shitified. They were the
[1:00:17] original in in shitified. But but
[1:00:20] actually I I think um
[1:00:24] as as I understand that term, you know,
[1:00:26] it means that almost like the the
[1:00:27] humanity is being subtracted from our
[1:00:30] experience. You know, you get you order
[1:00:32] an Uber and you don't talk to, you know,
[1:00:34] I'd like no conversation, please.
[1:00:37] All of these things, these like just
[1:00:39] just this like tech and management and
[1:00:42] admin just kind of
[1:00:44] covering over human experience.
[1:00:46] Prisons are kind of that
[1:00:48] they're heaving bureaucracies, they're
[1:00:50] impersonal. The staff don't last more
[1:00:52] than 6 months, you know, it's it's this
[1:00:55] it's it's that kind of environment. So
[1:00:57] it's so it's not an environment where
[1:00:59] um
[1:01:01] you can even begin to talk about
[1:01:02] channeling
[1:01:03] the, you know, okay, we've got these men
[1:01:06] maybe they're here because they are
[1:01:08] quite
[1:01:09] you know, it's it's one of the lines
[1:01:10] that the character says in episode one,
[1:01:11] like look around the room, do you think
[1:01:13] anyone here isn't here because they
[1:01:14] weren't trying to impress a girl on some
[1:01:16] level? And they would kind of look at
[1:01:17] their feet and
[1:01:18] it's like, okay, well, where can you go
[1:01:20] with that? Yeah.
[1:01:21] >> Well, in here
[1:01:24] not very far.
[1:01:26] >> I mean, that's really interesting cuz it
[1:01:28] it is a really difficult thing to work
[1:01:30] with that competitive instinct cuz you
[1:01:32] can't weed it out.
[1:01:34] Uh it's often utterly point missing. You
[1:01:37] know, you you meet guys who are you
[1:01:39] know, compete with you on the flight is
[1:01:40] just completely point missing and
[1:01:41] actually really irritating.
[1:01:43] Um
[1:01:44] but often for instance, you need to
[1:01:45] start to admit the insecurity that
[1:01:49] is part of the driver. I don't think
[1:01:50] it's just the driver cuz I think as I
[1:01:53] say, I think
[1:01:54] healthy people do
[1:01:55] commit compete. Um my own teacher
[1:01:58] Sangharakshita says that the the most
[1:02:01] competitive men are the men who won't
[1:02:02] compete
[1:02:03] because they they can't bear the idea of
[1:02:05] failing. So, they they present and this
[1:02:07] is what can easily happen in religious
[1:02:09] circles. They present themselves as very
[1:02:11] mild and sweet and domesticated and then
[1:02:14] you're above that, but really they're
[1:02:16] fiercely competitive cuz they won't do
[1:02:18] it. Healthy men uh healthy women will
[1:02:21] compete and they they they'll benefit
[1:02:24] from losing. I mean, one of the things
[1:02:25] that competitive sport does I think is
[1:02:28] just teaches children how to lose and
[1:02:30] how to lose well. One of the things we
[1:02:32] need to learn in life and you know,
[1:02:34] Buddhism would want to encourage you to
[1:02:35] learn is how to fail well and not have
[1:02:39] it catastrophic where your whole sense
[1:02:42] of yourself implode. You know, that's
[1:02:44] why we still admire good sportsmanship,
[1:02:47] don't we? We we really admire players
[1:02:49] who say, "Yeah, they they played better
[1:02:50] and I didn't do as well." You know, you
[1:02:52] want that kind of honor. It's an honor
[1:02:54] game, you know, um
[1:02:57] but you often in in the process that you
[1:02:59] still have to admit actually, "Do you
[1:03:00] know what? It's I'm being driven by this
[1:03:02] by insecurities." Now, how you'd ever
[1:03:04] get to that in prison, I don't know.
[1:03:06] >> Yeah, it's not an easy place to admit
[1:03:08] insecurity. I I I suppose um
[1:03:11] one experience I've had that's hopeful
[1:03:13] on that level
[1:03:14] is for For last couple of years I've
[1:03:16] been working in a place called HMP
[1:03:17] Grendon,
[1:03:18] uh which is um
[1:03:21] an exclusively therapeutic setting. It's
[1:03:24] for people who've committed very serious
[1:03:26] offenses on very long sentences.
[1:03:28] And it's quite hard to get into, um
[1:03:32] but quite easy to get thrown out of. Uh
[1:03:35] you have to write a letter to the
[1:03:36] governor saying,
[1:03:38] >> Mhm.
[1:03:38] >> "This is me. This is who I am. This is
[1:03:39] why I want to come here, you know,
[1:03:40] you're going to be in group therapy
[1:03:42] every morning.
[1:03:43] >> Wow.
[1:03:43] >> Uh
[1:03:44] you're going to be really confronting
[1:03:45] yourself, what you did.
[1:03:48] There's
[1:03:48] the prison hierarchy is as much as
[1:03:50] possible just kind of abolished. So, you
[1:03:52] will be in a room with
[1:03:54] a sex offender.
[1:03:56] Um
[1:03:57] you do have to tolerate that. Um
[1:04:00] people who stay there for more than 18
[1:04:02] months, the the the
[1:04:04] probability of them reoffending goes
[1:04:06] down uh dramatically.
[1:04:08] Um
[1:04:10] it's a it's a tough environment, but it
[1:04:12] but it is an environment where I've
[1:04:13] where
[1:04:15] I've I've heard people
[1:04:16] be much more
[1:04:18] soulful, sensitive, reflective, um
[1:04:24] and and admit vulnerabilities, yeah.
[1:04:26] >> And it's being cultivated, isn't it? You
[1:04:28] know, like you can imagine if if you can
[1:04:30] create an environment where somebody
[1:04:31] could admit it, somebody else will start
[1:04:33] to admit it as well.
[1:04:34] >> Yes.
[1:04:36] Yeah.
[1:04:36] >> Cuz we're group animals, so
[1:04:38] without an environment, it's just you
[1:04:40] can imagine in most prisons it's just
[1:04:42] too dangerous. You can't possibly do
[1:04:43] that.
[1:04:43] >> Yeah, yeah. Um whereas that that culture
[1:04:46] does kind of reward
[1:04:49] a more vulnerable process.
[1:04:50] >> Mhm.
[1:04:53] Is there anything else we could value
[1:04:55] Ah, the the other thing I
[1:04:56] So, you know,
[1:04:57] part of this whole question I mean is
[1:04:59] you visiting a women's prison.
[1:05:01] >> Yeah.
[1:05:01] >> Um
[1:05:02] and you know, that you you you talk
[1:05:04] about a a time where someone's saying to
[1:05:05] you, "That's when it'll kill you. It's
[1:05:07] when you go to a women's prison."
[1:05:10] Um I think it'd be good to tell that
[1:05:11] little story and then explain say a
[1:05:13] little bit about the experience of
[1:05:14] women's prisons.
[1:05:15] >> Yeah, so I guess I'd kind of
[1:05:18] you know, after a
[1:05:19] few years of working in prisons, I was I
[1:05:21] was aware that it was kind of bringing
[1:05:23] bringing me into confrontation with my
[1:05:25] own kind of masculine
[1:05:27] uh
[1:05:29] side and and history and you know,
[1:05:31] reckoning with this kind of sense of the
[1:05:33] father shame. And then someone said, "Do
[1:05:35] you want to go and teach in a woman's
[1:05:36] prison for a few months?" And I was
[1:05:37] like, "Oh yeah, that would be
[1:05:40] that would be a day off, you know, that
[1:05:41] would be easy."
[1:05:42] And and then I remember going through
[1:05:44] one of my last days in the men's
[1:05:45] prisons. I was going through security,
[1:05:47] you know, it's like airport security.
[1:05:48] You take everything off and whatever.
[1:05:50] And the governor
[1:05:52] came in and
[1:05:53] I remember he he had this world's best
[1:05:55] dad socks on his feet.
[1:05:58] >> [laughter]
[1:05:58] >> Uh I said, "Oh, I'm going to a woman's
[1:06:00] prison." He was like, "Oh, I can't stand
[1:06:02] women's prisons."
[1:06:04] And I said, "Why?" And he said,
[1:06:06] "Just the stories those women have, you
[1:06:08] know,
[1:06:09] pimps, abusive boyfriends, fathers. It
[1:06:12] just makes you feel so bad about being a
[1:06:14] man."
[1:06:16] And I was like, "Oh, okay, so it's not
[1:06:17] going to be a day off then."
[1:06:19] This is like
[1:06:21] the men's prison was just the
[1:06:22] preparation for like this thing. Um
[1:06:26] uh
[1:06:27] It it was it was a really different
[1:06:28] experience aside from my own kind of
[1:06:30] neurosis that I kind of bring to it. It
[1:06:33] it was a really different experience. Um
[1:06:36] Women's prisons are a lot smaller.
[1:06:38] There's a lot less bang up. There are a
[1:06:39] lot less violence in women's prisons. In
[1:06:42] in men's prisons there's like 1,300
[1:06:43] people
[1:06:45] in you know, Belmarsh or whatever. And
[1:06:46] even though they're on the same landing,
[1:06:49] I
[1:06:50] they come into my room and they don't
[1:06:51] know each other's names a lot of the
[1:06:53] time. And I have to create create this
[1:06:55] community and create this trust and
[1:06:57] rapport. Whereas women's prisons have
[1:06:59] 300 people in them. And they all know
[1:07:02] each other very well.
[1:07:04] And and they would be in the room and I
[1:07:07] would kind of have to be accepted into
[1:07:09] their community much more.
[1:07:11] Um
[1:07:13] most of my work is still in men's
[1:07:15] prisons, and I've I've done
[1:07:17] I've had various kind of phases in
[1:07:19] women's prisons.
[1:07:20] Um
[1:07:21] I always just found it a lot easier on
[1:07:22] an education level. It's like, "Oh, wow,
[1:07:24] these people are really
[1:07:26] bright and engaged and
[1:07:29] Um but yeah, I think I think it is a
[1:07:31] it's a diff- it's a very different
[1:07:32] circumstance and it's a different
[1:07:34] journey, but it is one again that makes
[1:07:35] you think about
[1:07:37] um
[1:07:39] men and masculinity and
[1:07:41] Yeah.
[1:07:42] >> And the other thing that I noticed I I
[1:07:44] struggled with with that and throughout
[1:07:46] the book is this
[1:07:48] whole question about how how trying to
[1:07:50] help them or not. There's a a woman
[1:07:52] tries to give you a Mars bar in the
[1:07:53] women's prison.
[1:07:54] >> Yeah.
[1:07:56] >> And you're not allowed to take them, you
[1:07:57] know, it'd be good to hear that as well,
[1:07:59] I think.
[1:07:59] >> Yeah, I mean, this is more frog and
[1:08:01] scorpion stuff, really, but
[1:08:03] >> a theme, isn't it, Ru?
[1:08:04] >> Yeah, you know, um
[1:08:07] you know,
[1:08:08] like in the break, the women would like
[1:08:11] slightly argue with each other about who
[1:08:13] was going to make me a cup of tea or not
[1:08:15] because they they all wanted to do it.
[1:08:17] And, you know, someone had some
[1:08:18] chocolate.
[1:08:19] >> in the men's group.
[1:08:20] >> [laughter]
[1:08:22] >> Uh and
[1:08:25] and, you know, it was it it
[1:08:28] This this woman, you know,
[1:08:31] I guess she was in her like mid-60s,
[1:08:33] been in prison a long time. She just had
[1:08:35] some chocolate. She wanted to give me
[1:08:36] some chocolates. It was a kind of
[1:08:37] maternal instinct, kind of. But I'm
[1:08:39] like, "I'm not allowed to take these.
[1:08:41] I'm really sorry." And it's like, "Well,
[1:08:42] why?" You know, I just
[1:08:44] And and it's it's those
[1:08:47] This is the thing, you know, when we
[1:08:48] talk about prison dramas being like
[1:08:50] really violent and uh you know, people
[1:08:52] getting shanked in the showers and
[1:08:53] stuff. Yeah, that that does happen and
[1:08:56] and can you imagine surviving that? But
[1:08:59] actually, it's it's the death by a
[1:09:00] thousand cuts mm, that really kills
[1:09:03] people. It's the I'm not allowed to give
[1:09:05] you a chocolate anymore because security
[1:09:09] have said I can't do that. We're not
[1:09:11] allowed. And and this this natural human
[1:09:13] instinct
[1:09:15] the state has said I can't do that
[1:09:17] anymore because,
[1:09:19] you know, over a crime I committed 12
[1:09:22] years ago. And it's like,
[1:09:23] "Oh, this is really suffocating, you
[1:09:26] know, your identity and your
[1:09:28] you know,
[1:09:29] yeah."
[1:09:30] >> And it's
[1:09:31] but and again it's that the scorpion and
[1:09:34] frog thing cuz,
[1:09:36] you know, that the theory is that, you
[1:09:37] know, they that's how people work you,
[1:09:39] you know, first of all they say give you
[1:09:41] a chocolate, then you say then they say,
[1:09:43] "Could you top up my mobile phone?" You
[1:09:45] know, there there's a whole thing. So,
[1:09:47] it'd be good to hear the other side if
[1:09:49] you could.
[1:09:49] >> Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you did want to
[1:09:51] groom me, chocolate is definitely
[1:09:53] >> [laughter]
[1:09:54] >> We have got chocolate in your ordering
[1:09:56] thing.
[1:09:56] >> in that. [clears throat] I'm just
[1:09:57] advertising that,
[1:09:58] um,
[1:09:59] to the room.
[1:09:59] >> There was a chocolate run just before
[1:10:01] you.
[1:10:02] >> [laughter]
[1:10:03] >> Yeah, I mean, you know, there will be
[1:10:04] prisoners who, you know, you build up a
[1:10:07] a little bond because they give you a
[1:10:08] chocolate every week and they're not
[1:10:09] supposed to, but you say yes and, you
[1:10:11] know, and they ask you like, "Hey, you
[1:10:13] know, we don't have anything to read in
[1:10:14] here. Could you could you bring me a
[1:10:16] newspaper on your way in?" And you bring
[1:10:17] them a newspaper. And then they ask you
[1:10:18] for something
[1:10:20] really bad and and,
[1:10:23] you know, can you do this for me on the
[1:10:24] out or can you bring this in? And and
[1:10:26] you say, "No, I can't." They say, "Well,
[1:10:27] if if you don't, I'm going to tell
[1:10:29] people that you've been bringing me
[1:10:30] newspapers every week."
[1:10:31] >> Mm.
[1:10:31] >> And you're like, "Oh, this
[1:10:33] this was a scorpion. See?"
[1:10:35] >> [laughter]
[1:10:36] >> Um,
[1:10:38] uh, so that is a risk.
[1:10:41] Uh, but, you know, there's
[1:10:45] the what what what you get told when you
[1:10:48] when you when you start working in
[1:10:49] prison and you go to these
[1:10:51] very long, very stern talks at security
[1:10:54] to get access to your keys is, um,
[1:10:58] never trust a prisoner.
[1:10:59] >> Mm. That's the message cuz that's the
[1:11:02] safest message.
[1:11:03] For you anyway.
[1:11:05] But you don't get told what intelligent
[1:11:07] trust might be.
[1:11:08] You don't get told to discern. You don't
[1:11:10] get told how to use your judgment.
[1:11:14] And I think without that people are just
[1:11:18] they're just
[1:11:19] stuck. They're stuck in criminal
[1:11:21] identities.
[1:11:24] And you know
[1:11:26] it's no wonder people don't cooperate
[1:11:28] with the regime if if if that's where
[1:11:30] they are.
[1:11:31] >> Well, you have really created an inhuman
[1:11:33] world and then people will
[1:11:34] act in that way.
[1:11:35] >> Yeah, exactly.
[1:11:37] >> So let's start to move towards the
[1:11:39] conclusion and but but I have to finish
[1:11:41] on an up if we can
[1:11:43] find one. Um
[1:11:45] And yeah, I was very struck by the
[1:11:48] the story at the end of the book of I
[1:11:49] think it's Martin at least that's the
[1:11:51] name you've given him.
[1:11:52] Um
[1:11:53] because you know, one of the one of the
[1:11:55] great
[1:11:56] problems with prison is is reoffending,
[1:11:58] isn't it? You you basically in prison
[1:12:00] get to meet all the all the people that
[1:12:01] you could do with knowing if you want to
[1:12:03] reoffend.
[1:12:04] Um
[1:12:06] you know, in that way it's a disaster
[1:12:08] really. Um
[1:12:10] but that doesn't always happen. Let's
[1:12:11] say a little bit about reoffending and
[1:12:12] then perhaps let's finish with that
[1:12:14] story of Martin cuz it it seemed
[1:12:16] emblematic of a possibility of change.
[1:12:18] >> Yeah.
[1:12:19] >> Even in very dark circumstances.
[1:12:20] >> Well, there's that there's that line um
[1:12:23] prison is
[1:12:24] a very expensive way of making bad
[1:12:26] people worse.
[1:12:27] Does anyone know who said that cuz it's
[1:12:29] really interesting who said that?
[1:12:32] It's actually Winston Churchill.
[1:12:33] >> Oh, really? Wow.
[1:12:34] >> Um and Winston Churchill had spent time
[1:12:36] as a prisoner during the Boer War.
[1:12:39] And I think it meant during his second
[1:12:41] term he was a really passionate prison
[1:12:42] reformer actually.
[1:12:44] And
[1:12:45] in terms of a politician who's made an
[1:12:47] impact on prisons
[1:12:50] he's probably the
[1:12:52] in in in sort of recent history he's
[1:12:54] probably had the biggest impact.
[1:12:57] I mean we've had people who have tried
[1:12:58] James Tempson Rory Stewart recently but
[1:13:00] we've had
[1:13:02] 11 prison ministers in 12 years so it's
[1:13:05] not it's not a real job you know
[1:13:09] it's it's sort of a gap year thing for
[1:13:12] for politicians but but if a politician
[1:13:15] is is focused on that and wants to do
[1:13:17] something I think it also helps that
[1:13:19] Churchill had the profile that he had
[1:13:21] that you you couldn't just dismiss him
[1:13:22] as a wet liberal you know a bleeding
[1:13:24] heart it was like okay this is a this is
[1:13:26] a strong man telling us this and
[1:13:28] and
[1:13:29] maybe that should tell us something
[1:13:30] about
[1:13:32] how we do our politics today on this
[1:13:34] issue and tell me maybe we do need to
[1:13:37] bring people in
[1:13:39] who would be unlikely allies for for
[1:13:41] moving forward
[1:13:42] um
[1:13:43] but yeah I mean
[1:13:46] I
[1:13:47] I
[1:13:48] in terms of a hopeful story about about
[1:13:50] rehabilitation I do look at places like
[1:13:52] Grendon
[1:13:54] where they focus on the individual
[1:13:57] to change the individuals propensity
[1:14:00] for reoffending but a lot of reoffending
[1:14:03] is is not it's only partly about
[1:14:06] propensity it's means mostly about
[1:14:08] opportunity I think you know
[1:14:10] I was working with a guy a few years ago
[1:14:12] who who cleaned up in prison you know he
[1:14:15] he was using a lot of hard drugs on the
[1:14:17] outside he showed me his ID badge which
[1:14:19] had a photo of him on it taken the day
[1:14:22] he arrived in the prison you know he was
[1:14:24] very drawn very sallow looked very very
[1:14:28] unwell and you know he was showing me
[1:14:29] this and now I'm looking at him nine
[1:14:31] months later in real life and he's kind
[1:14:34] of round faced and he's been eating
[1:14:35] three meals a day and getting sleep and
[1:14:37] he's been staying off drugs which you
[1:14:39] know in Pentonville is actually quite an
[1:14:41] achievement because there's quite a lot
[1:14:43] of drugs available like if you want to
[1:14:46] get high you can't quite easily.
[1:14:49] Um
[1:14:51] And you know, I spent a few weeks with
[1:14:53] him and
[1:14:55] he was getting out on the Friday and
[1:14:56] it's like, "Where are you going?" He's
[1:14:57] like, "I don't know.
[1:14:59] Don't have any family.
[1:15:01] Uh don't have a place to live.
[1:15:03] >> Mhm.
[1:15:04] >> Uh don't have any money."
[1:15:06] >> Mhm.
[1:15:07] >> And it's like, "Well,
[1:15:09] that you know, that's why they're
[1:15:10] reoffending. It's It's because there's
[1:15:13] not
[1:15:14] uh a plan for after this."
[1:15:16] >> Yeah, exactly.
[1:15:17] >> Um but
[1:15:19] I
[1:15:20] I I think the big thing for me, if if
[1:15:23] you want to change prisons, is it you
[1:15:25] need to change society, which which
[1:15:27] sounds like just one of those
[1:15:28] platitudes, but um I went to Norway a
[1:15:31] few times and and went to prisons there
[1:15:34] and and the conditions are much better.
[1:15:36] They're much more dignified. Everyone
[1:15:37] has a single cell. It's more spacious.
[1:15:39] It's more clean. It's more humane. The
[1:15:41] prison officers
[1:15:44] they haven't just done 6 weeks training
[1:15:46] on minimum wage. You know, they've done
[1:15:47] 3 years that training at university.
[1:15:49] They're like social workers. It's It's a
[1:15:51] It's a proper institution, proper public
[1:15:54] institution. And
[1:15:56] and I think a a big thing that allows
[1:15:59] Norway to do that is is the general
[1:16:01] quality of life in the country is quite
[1:16:03] good.
[1:16:04] I think you know, they've got all of
[1:16:06] that oil money and and they've shared it
[1:16:07] out quite nicely.
[1:16:09] Buses are good. Schools are good.
[1:16:11] Housing is good.
[1:16:13] Minimum wage, living wage, you know,
[1:16:14] it's all good. I think here, if you try
[1:16:17] and improve conditions in prison, you'll
[1:16:19] have a lot of people in the working
[1:16:21] class community say, "How come these
[1:16:25] guys are getting this food? How come
[1:16:27] they're living in a room that's bigger
[1:16:29] than mine? How come they're getting paid
[1:16:31] for their work and they're doing it in
[1:16:33] prison when I'm only getting And it's
[1:16:34] resentment between
[1:16:37] working class people on the outside and
[1:16:39] working class people in prison.
[1:16:41] >> Of course, yeah.
[1:16:41] >> And and in a way you need to improve
[1:16:45] conditions outside for the public to
[1:16:49] to for prison reform to move into the
[1:16:51] Overton window for the public, I think.
[1:16:53] >> That's very interesting.
[1:16:55] So, let's finish with Martin
[1:16:56] as a story of someone that
[1:17:00] >> Yeah, you you've
[1:17:01] >> in very, very difficult conditions. I
[1:17:03] mean, I
[1:17:04] it does you know, talking to you
[1:17:06] tonight, you
[1:17:07] it's too glib so it's so easy to be glib
[1:17:10] about change. Um
[1:17:12] as as if we're in some sort of
[1:17:14] commercial, you know, where where we
[1:17:16] suddenly realize that we can be happy.
[1:17:19] Um we're
[1:17:20] human beings don't change very easily.
[1:17:22] Um
[1:17:23] I'm I'm struck by how
[1:17:26] you know, in my own life, how I have
[1:17:27] changed um to some extent to how much
[1:17:30] help I've needed to do that. And I'm
[1:17:33] I you know, I've not I've not got I've
[1:17:35] not come any from anything like the
[1:17:37] difficult conditions that so many people
[1:17:38] have.
[1:17:39] To actually have an individual actually
[1:17:41] change their life, even a health
[1:17:43] relatively healthy one. I was a sort of
[1:17:45] typical neurotic one, but you know, it's
[1:17:47] it's a it's it's a lot. You need a lot
[1:17:50] of support. You need a whole condition
[1:17:51] to to help those guys change and those
[1:17:54] women change and the women prob- you
[1:17:55] know, you you've got the almost
[1:17:56] insuperable issues. So, I don't want to
[1:17:58] be glib about that, but some people do,
[1:18:00] don't they?
[1:18:01] >> Some people do. And and Martin, one of
[1:18:03] the characters um
[1:18:04] one of the people in the book to was the
[1:18:06] end of the story
[1:18:07] uh
[1:18:08] was uh kind of came to prison and just
[1:18:11] grew this massive beard and long hair
[1:18:14] and really kind of let his um
[1:18:17] personal hygiene go and
[1:18:19] uh
[1:18:20] it was just a kind of hiding, really.
[1:18:22] Just don't don't look at me. Don't come
[1:18:23] near me, you know, [ __ ] Just kind of
[1:18:25] radiating the shame. And and he wouldn't
[1:18:27] go to the visits hall. His family would
[1:18:29] show up and he just wouldn't go to the
[1:18:31] visits hall.
[1:18:32] Um
[1:18:34] and then
[1:18:36] he did brave a conversation, I think,
[1:18:38] over the phone with his daughter.
[1:18:41] And he said, you know, "Can can you
[1:18:43] forgive me for what I did?" And I think
[1:18:46] she was very angry with him that he'd
[1:18:47] even asked.
[1:18:49] And this for him was not something he
[1:18:51] was expecting to hear. You know, he was
[1:18:52] just happy to sort of disappear.
[1:18:55] And she sort of wouldn't let him,
[1:18:57] basically.
[1:18:58] Uh
[1:18:59] and the next time I saw him, he'd kind
[1:19:01] of, you know, he's kind of washed and
[1:19:03] shaved. It was very moving, you know,
[1:19:04] just
[1:19:05] someone fresh smelling.
[1:19:08] Um
[1:19:09] And you know, that that is, I think, how
[1:19:12] it's it's an interesting thought for us
[1:19:14] as as philosophers, you know, how do you
[1:19:15] change someone's mind? How do you
[1:19:16] persuade someone? And
[1:19:18] often it's not premise premise
[1:19:20] conclusion.
[1:19:21] O- often it's human relationships. And
[1:19:24] it's like this
[1:19:26] this person who loves me has, you know,
[1:19:29] they've left or are staying with me
[1:19:31] despite what I've done. And
[1:19:33] And um
[1:19:36] it's it's a huge uh I'm not a
[1:19:38] criminologist, so I would I would be
[1:19:40] making up numbers if I if I claimed to
[1:19:42] know, but I but I do know it's it's
[1:19:43] really significant
[1:19:45] factor in reoffending, whether someone
[1:19:48] uh maintains family relationships on the
[1:19:51] outside or not.
[1:19:52] >> Of course, yeah.
[1:19:54] So, that's a great place to finish.
[1:19:55] Thank you very much, Harry.
[1:19:57] >> Thank you so much.
[1:19:59] >> [applause]