BrightStar

Browse All Events

Discover conscious gatherings

events

Yoga
Meditation
Breathwork
Qigong
Tai Chi
Sacred Music
World Music
Medicine Music
Sound Healing
Ecstatic Dance
Popular Destinations
BaliSedonaLos AngelesCosta RicaNew YorkSan FranciscoAustinMiamiJoshua TreeTulum
View All CategoriesView All Destinations

Explore All Features

Powerful tools to grow your events

Platform Features

Smart Dynamic Pricing
Ticket Categories
Assigned Seating
Abandoned Cart Recovery
Visitor Recovery
Donations & Sliding Scale
Affiliate Engine
Ticket Scanner
Coupon Codes
Custom Questions
Ticket Sharing
Upsells & Add-ons
Analytics & Reporting
Email Sequences
Waitlist / Notify / Remind
People & Places
Artists & TeachersEvent OrganizersVenues & StudiosKnowledge BaseGlossaryInspiration
View All FeaturesAbout Us
PricingBlog
Language
Saved events
Browse All Events

events

YogaMeditationBreathworkQigongTai ChiSacred MusicWorld MusicMedicine Music

Popular Destinations

BaliSedonaLos AngelesCosta RicaNew YorkSan Francisco

People & Places

Artists & TeachersEvent OrganizersVenues & StudiosKnowledge BaseGlossaryInspiration

Platform Features

Smart Dynamic PricingTicket CategoriesAssigned SeatingAbandoned Cart RecoveryVisitor RecoveryDonations & Sliding ScaleAffiliate EngineTicket ScannerCoupon CodesCustom QuestionsTicket SharingUpsells & Add-onsAnalytics & ReportingEmail SequencesWaitlist / Notify / Remind
View All FeaturesAbout Us
PricingBlog
Log inFind EventsHost Events
  • Browse All Events
  • For Seekers
  • Yoga
  • Meditation
  • Breathwork
  • Qigong
  • Tai Chi
  • Sacred Music
  • World Music
  • Medicine Music
  • Sound Healing
  • Ecstatic Dance
  • Retreats
  • Workshops
  • All Categories →
  • Bali
  • Sedona
  • Los Angeles
  • Costa Rica
  • Tulum
  • Byron Bay
  • San Francisco
  • Austin
  • New York
  • San Diego
  • Denver
  • Seattle
  • Portland
  • Miami
  • All Cities →
  • Join the Movement
  • Why we list
  • Sell Globally
  • For Creators
  • For Teams
  • For Writers
  • For Teachers
  • For Kirtan Artists
  • For Studios
  • For Festivals
  • For Retreat Centers
  • For Nonprofits
  • Brand Ambassador
  • Free Ticketing
  • Elevate
  • Amplify
  • 500K+ Buyer Network
  • Abandoned Cart Recovery
  • Smart Dynamic Pricing
  • Ticket Categories
  • Recurring Events
  • Assigned Seating
  • Affiliate Engine
  • Waitlist / Notify
  • Ticket Scanner
  • Embed Widget
  • Event Syndication
  • Message Center
  • Integrations
  • Reports
  • All Features →
  • About
  • The Ecosystem
  • Blog
  • Glossary
  • Inspiration
  • Help Center
  • Contact
  • API Docs
  • Brand Assets
  • Careers
  • Press
  • Terms of Service
  • Privacy Policy

Events

  • Browse All Events
  • For Seekers
  • Yoga
  • Meditation
  • Breathwork
  • Qigong
  • Tai Chi
  • Sacred Music
  • World Music
  • Medicine Music
  • Sound Healing
  • Ecstatic Dance
  • Retreats
  • Workshops
  • All Categories →

Destinations

  • Bali
  • Sedona
  • Los Angeles
  • Costa Rica
  • Tulum
  • Byron Bay
  • San Francisco
  • Austin
  • New York
  • San Diego
  • Denver
  • Seattle
  • Portland
  • Miami
  • All Cities →

For Creators

  • Join the Movement
  • Why we list
  • Sell Globally
  • For Creators
  • For Teams
  • For Writers
  • For Teachers
  • For Kirtan Artists
  • For Studios
  • For Festivals
  • For Retreat Centers
  • For Nonprofits
  • Brand Ambassador
  • Free Ticketing
  • Elevate
  • Amplify

Features

  • 500K+ Buyer Network
  • Abandoned Cart Recovery
  • Smart Dynamic Pricing
  • Ticket Categories
  • Recurring Events
  • Assigned Seating
  • Affiliate Engine
  • Waitlist / Notify
  • Ticket Scanner
  • Embed Widget
  • Event Syndication
  • Message Center
  • Integrations
  • Reports
  • All Features →

Company

  • About
  • The Ecosystem
  • Blog
  • Glossary
  • Inspiration
  • Help Center
  • Contact
  • API Docs
  • Brand Assets
  • Careers
  • Press
  • Terms of Service
  • Privacy Policy
BrightStar
Get the app
Download on theApp StoreGet it onGoogle Play
© 2026 BrightStar. All rights reserved.
Inspiration

Teaching Philosophy to Men in Prison: A Family's Story

London Buddhist Centre
London Buddhist Centre
Oct 23, 2026
9 min read

From London Buddhist Centre

Watch · 6

A man stands beside the author in a lift. He is short, his fingertips are yellowed, and the sleeves of his oversized suit jacket brush his knuckles. The author recognises the clenched jaw and the wheeze in his breathing, and for a moment he is certain this is his father, a man he has not seen in years since the day he was sent to prison. Then the man does not answer in a Scouse accent, and the author knows he is not his dad. The lift climbs five more floors in silence. The doors open, the man steps out, and the author thinks about tomorrow: his first morning going into prison, to teach philosophy to men. That scene opens Andy West's book, and it is the way into this conversation, recorded for the London Buddhist Centre and titled The Life Inside: Men in Prison. What follows is less a discussion of penal policy than a portrait of how prison runs through one family, how stories about it are passed down or withheld, and what happens when a man who grew up on the wrong side of a locked door stands on the other side of it with a question for the room.

Read · 6 sections

Why does a book about prison start with a stranger in a lift?

The reading that opens the conversation is short, and West is careful to frame it as a doorway rather than a thesis. The man in the lift is not a character who matters for his own sake. He is a reminder of a figure who appears throughout West's life: the man in the station, on the bus, at the urinal in a pub toilet, in London, Manchester, Berlin or Rio de Janeiro. Each time, the resemblance to his father is strong enough to stop him, and each time the test of a single detail, an accent or a face, proves him wrong.

That repetition is the point. West is describing a lifelong habit of looking for the father, and the book is built around the stories that grew up in the gaps. Early in the conversation he explains the impulse plainly: prison "was always kind of stories to me." Whether the stories were told to him or kept from him, there was a hunger to describe them. Writing the book, he says, felt logical for that reason. The material had been waiting.

What did a prison story sound like at a family table?

West draws a sharp contrast between two relatives. On his mother's side, from Canning Town in the East End, an uncle would be telling him about HM Brixton before the kettle had boiled on a Sunday. The uncle was gleeful and shameless, and the prison years were the great drama of his life. The uncle appears as one of the characters in the book.

His brother's prison history was a different kind of story. He went to prison about twelve times in total, in the grip of a long and chronic heroin addiction, and West's first visit came when he was six or seven. His mother told him that his brother was "going to do a bit of work," and the boy found this strange, because his brother had never had a job and never would. At HMP Gloucester, the visit took place across a table with prison officers in the room. Where the uncle was forthcoming, the brother was protective and did not want his little brother to know.

West reads this silence as a common feature of what he calls the prison visitor's world. Families, he suggests, do not know how to tell a child something that big and that frightening, so they reach for a cover story: the father is away at work, in a factory, in the army. But a child always reads the cover story as a message. West's own reading of being kept from the truth was that "this world is not for you. You don't belong here." He is blunt about the consequence: "which can only make you more curious, of course."

How does a father's violence shape a son's relationship to prison?

The hardest part of the conversation is West's account of his father. He describes him as violent, domineering and difficult, and he is clear that his feelings about prison are knotted together because of him. His brother's repeated sentences were painful and harmful to watch. His father's sentence, in contrast, is the one that let him breathe. He says that people often ask him why he took such a different path from the other men in these stories, and his answer is uncomfortable and honest.

"My dad being in prison may have been something that allowed me to become the person I did, so it's very mixed. It's very it's extremely complex, yeah." — Andy West, London Buddhist Centre conversation

West does not soften the point. He says he knows prisons to be deeply troubling, deeply harmful and shameful in the state they are in. He holds both truths at once, and the conversation does not try to resolve them into something neat.

The dramatisation of this period is one of the most vivid moments in the talk. West describes a scene from a television adaptation in which the actor Gerard Kearns, known to many viewers for playing one of the Gallagher brothers in Shameless, played his father. Off camera Kearns was, in West's words, "the sweetest man you ever met." When the cameras rolled he became the father. A child actor played the younger West, and the production used signals for the child to tap in and tap out of the scene, because an adult shouting aggressively at a child is frightening even when it is pretend. West's father, by contrast, "did not tap in and tap out." He was not regulated. He was easily slighted, humiliated and undermined, and he had to reclaim power in the moment. He had awful mood swings.

One ritual from the childhood home stands out. Whenever West's mother put on make-up or did her hair, his father called her a tart, and he tried to draw his son into the game. "What is she? What is your mother?" The boy, frightened of his father's masculinity, would answer the way he was told. West calls it a call-and-response, and the ugliness of it is in the repetition.

What does philosophy do in a room full of men who have been in prison?

The conversation turns, around the middle, from family to classroom, and this is where the title's promise of philosophy comes into focus. West describes teaching groups of men in prison, and he returns several times to the questions that arise in those rooms. Questions about morality come up constantly. So does the plurality of ideas, the fact that a person's thoughts can be examined and worked through rather than simply accepted or rejected. West talks about asking the men to suspend judgment a little longer than they are used to, and he links this to the figure of Socrates, whose method of questioning everyday assumptions the men already know something about, even if they have never studied it.

He also notes that the men come from many parts of the world, which means the room carries a range of traditions and experiences rather than a single script. That matters for how a teacher listens. West is not describing a lecture delivered to a passive audience. He is describing dialogue, in which the men's own experience of violence, family and the justice system becomes material for thinking.

There is a practical humility in his approach. Teaching in a prison means preparing for the way a class can go, and West admits that the work is demanding. What he is after is not moral instruction handed down from above but the slow building of a habit: examining a thought before acting on it.

Why is it so hard to talk about men, masculinity and prison?

Near the end of the conversation the discussion widens to culture. West points to what he calls a very deep instinct that men succeed, acquire wealth and win, and he suggests that this instinct works against the kind of reflection a philosophy class asks for. In a society that measures a man by what he gets, prison becomes an easy place to look away from. There is, he says, not much cultural sympathy for men in this position, and not much of a reference point for other ways of being a man.

This is where the book's family stories and its larger argument meet. The father in the lift, the uncle with his war stories, the brother who would not tell the truth, and the man who called his wife a name every time she dressed up are all men shaped by the same cultural script. West's work is to refuse to treat them as only their worst moments, and also to refuse to let the violence in his own family be softened by nostalgia.

Where to go from here

The conversation is worth watching in full, because its power comes from the way it moves between the personal and the structural without announcing the shift. If you want to go further, read the book the conversation was built around, which West has described as beginning with the lift scene. Pay attention to how he handles the difference between a story told to a child and a story kept from one, and how that difference shapes what a person later wants to know. Then consider the question the classroom poses: what would it take for a man in prison to examine his own thoughts with the same care that West, as a young boy, was never allowed to see? The London Buddhist Centre's own classes and courses are a place to explore the wider questions of ethics, attention and compassion that run beneath this discussion.

Comments

Loading the conversation…

Transcript

[0:00] So, welcome and they're really good to

[0:03] speak to you publicly. We've been

[0:04] chatting

[0:05] just come up for supper in our community

[0:07] and we've been meeting and talking about

[0:09] the book and about your life and work.

[0:11] But, let let's jump in with you reading

[0:13] a little bit from the book. So, it gives

[0:15] you a sense of Well, it kind of framed

[0:18] the whole discussion, I think.

[0:19] >> Absolutely. Yeah, I'll start on page one

[0:23] just to give you a bit of context. I'm

[0:24] only going to read about 18 pages. So,

[0:28] >> [laughter]

[0:28] >> um my heart always sinks when the author

[0:31] says I'm going to do a reading. Now, I

[0:33] always think how long's this going to

[0:34] be? But, I'll keep it short.

[0:38] The man standing next to me inside the

[0:40] lift looks uncannily like my father, who

[0:43] I have not seen for 20 years since he

[0:46] was sent to prison.

[0:48] He is short, has yellowed fingertips,

[0:51] and the sleeves of his oversized suit

[0:53] jacket brush his knuckles.

[0:56] I have seen men who look like my father

[0:58] before while I was on buses and trains

[1:02] or standing at urinals in pub toilets.

[1:04] I've seen them in London, Manchester,

[1:06] Berlin, and Rio de Janeiro.

[1:10] In the lift, I glance at him and

[1:13] recognize the permanently clenched jaw,

[1:16] the emphysemic wheeze in the breathing.

[1:20] I pull my shirt sleeve over my wrist to

[1:22] conceal my watch

[1:24] and ask him for the time.

[1:26] He does not answer in a scouse accent

[1:29] and therefore he is not my dad.

[1:31] Neither were the men in Germany or

[1:33] Brazil.

[1:35] We travel up another five floors in

[1:37] silence.

[1:38] The lift stops.

[1:40] The doors open and he exits.

[1:44] Tomorrow Tomorrow morning, I'll be going

[1:46] into prison for the first time.

[1:49] I'll be teaching philosophy to men.

[1:54] >> Great. Well, that's a really good place

[1:56] to start. So,

[1:57] yeah, I wanted you know you

[1:59] Diana was saying I like personal stories

[2:01] and

[2:02] we're always talking to persons, we're

[2:04] not talking about subjects. So, I

[2:05] thought

[2:07] you you introduce your father then, your

[2:09] father and your brother and your uncle

[2:11] even are a themes right the way through

[2:13] the book. So, I thought it'd be good to

[2:15] start with

[2:17] your story, you at 7, you you know, with

[2:20] your dad watching television.

[2:22] Um

[2:23] those those stories which I found very

[2:25] very poignant. And um the stories that

[2:28] I don't have, you know, none of my

[2:30] family went to prison.

[2:32] Um

[2:33] So, it'd be good to start with that.

[2:34] It's a bit So, you know, introduce

[2:35] yourself as a child there and um your

[2:39] father and the experience.

[2:42] >> Yeah, I mean um

[2:45] prison was always kind of stories to me.

[2:47] So, so writing this book felt very

[2:49] logical because um

[2:51] it was either a story that I was kind of

[2:53] being told or a story that I wasn't

[2:56] being told, but either way there was a

[2:58] kind of hunger there to

[2:59] to describe and and and tell a story.

[3:03] My my dad's from Liverpool as you could

[3:05] um tell from that. And my mom's side of

[3:07] the family from the East End, Canning

[3:08] Town, um not far from here.

[3:11] And you know, if I went to my

[3:12] grandmother's house

[3:14] on a Sunday, you know, before the kettle

[3:16] had even boiled, my uncle was telling me

[3:18] about this time at HM Brixton prison

[3:20] where, you know, there was this incident

[3:22] or there was this thing and all these

[3:23] kind of war stories, you know, and he

[3:25] was very kind of gleeful and

[3:28] they were the great drama of his life

[3:30] and and um

[3:31] he's he's one of the characters in the

[3:33] book. Um

[3:35] but you know, when my brother went to

[3:36] prison, uh which he did

[3:39] about 12 times in total.

[3:42] Uh

[3:43] you know, I remember the first time I

[3:44] visited him when I was about six or

[3:45] seven, we got in the car and my mom

[3:47] said, "Your brother's going to do a bit

[3:49] of work.

[3:51] Uh we're going to visit him at work."

[3:53] And I was like, that's that's weird

[3:54] because

[3:55] he's never had a job before.

[3:58] He's never had one since, actually, now

[4:00] that I think of it.

[4:01] Um and you know, I got to HMP Gloucester

[4:05] and

[4:06] uh visited my brother doing a bit of

[4:07] work uh

[4:10] across the table while there were prison

[4:11] officers around the room uh monitoring

[4:14] the situation. Uh

[4:17] and so that was a very different

[4:19] thing because where my uncle was so

[4:20] forthcoming and so gleefully kind of

[4:23] shameless in telling me these kind of

[4:26] tales and war stories, my brother was

[4:29] very protective and didn't want me to

[4:31] know.

[4:32] And and you know, that's that's a trope

[4:35] of the prison visitor world that, you

[4:36] know,

[4:37] your dad's working away or he's in a

[4:39] factory or he's in the army or

[4:41] something, but but to not tell the

[4:42] truth.

[4:44] Because families and parents don't

[4:46] really know how you communicate

[4:48] something that big and that scary to to

[4:51] a child. But I suppose my interpretation

[4:54] of

[4:56] not being told the truth in that was

[4:59] that somehow you're you're not to know

[5:01] about this world. This world is not for

[5:03] you. You don't belong here.

[5:05] Um

[5:06] which can only make you more curious, of

[5:09] course.

[5:10] >> of course.

[5:11] And your father? You know, your

[5:13] brother's story we might come back to it

[5:16] cuz it's very strong story and but you

[5:18] you you know, your father as well.

[5:20] >> Yeah, I mean, my father I haven't seen

[5:21] since I was 12

[5:23] um and

[5:25] uh

[5:27] you know,

[5:27] >> Some quite scary scenes in the book

[5:28] about you and your father.

[5:30] >> Yeah, my father was violent,

[5:33] domineering, difficult,

[5:35] uh you know, um

[5:38] and

[5:40] it I sort of have this very mixed

[5:42] relationship with prison because, you

[5:43] know, my brother going in and out, you

[5:44] know, in during the throes of a very

[5:47] long and chronic heroin addiction, just

[5:49] felt deeply sort of painful and and and

[5:52] harmful.

[5:53] Uh but I think it was my dad going to

[5:56] prison

[5:57] that sort of allowed me to

[6:00] stand up and sort of suddenly I could

[6:03] breathe again and

[6:05] and you know, people often ask me uh

[6:08] after they've read my books of why do

[6:09] you think you went such a different way

[6:11] to the rest of these men and

[6:13] um

[6:14] you know, and and I find

[6:16] prisons, I know prisons deeply troubling

[6:18] and deeply harmful and shameful that

[6:21] that they exist in the state they do,

[6:23] but

[6:24] my dad being in prison

[6:27] may have been

[6:29] something that allowed me to become the

[6:31] person I did, so

[6:33] it's very mixed. It's very it's

[6:34] extremely complex, yeah.

[6:37] >> I mean it and you know,

[6:39] in your childhood, quite frightening.

[6:41] Your

[6:42] you know, your mother was very young.

[6:44] Um

[6:44] your dad

[6:46] They they just

[6:47] see if you can sort of show us that

[6:49] scene as as it were almost in front of

[6:51] the television. That thought that sticks

[6:53] in my mind.

[6:54] Um

[6:55] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is something we

[6:57] dramatized in the show actually, um

[7:00] which was really

[7:02] you know, really strange um because

[7:04] there's this wonderful actor, Gerard

[7:06] Kearns, um who um

[7:09] did everyone watch Shameless?

[7:12] He was one of the Gallagher brothers in

[7:14] Shameless when he was 17 or 18.

[7:17] Um and uh he's just

[7:20] you meet him and he's just the sweetest

[7:22] man you ever met. Um and then you know,

[7:25] the cameras would start rolling and he

[7:27] turned into my father.

[7:28] And then the cameras would cut and he'd

[7:30] become so sweet again. And and what was

[7:32] strange is, you know, he was working

[7:34] with a a child actor who was playing the

[7:37] younger version of me.

[7:39] And they would have these signals for

[7:41] when they would tap in and tap out

[7:43] because, you know, to a child actor it's

[7:46] really, you know, they can suspend

[7:48] disbelief, but also it's it's really

[7:50] frightening like when an adult is like

[7:51] being really aggressive with you.

[7:54] Um

[7:55] so, you know, that felt like quite a

[7:56] stark contrast. My dad did not tap in

[7:58] and tap out.

[7:59] >> No, I can imagine. [laughter]

[8:01] >> Um I you know, he wasn't that regulated.

[8:03] He was he was so easily

[8:07] it was very easy for him to feel

[8:09] slighted, humiliated, undermined, like

[8:11] he sort of had to reclaim some power,

[8:13] some authority.

[8:15] Um and you know, he was

[8:17] had these awful mood swings, but um

[8:20] the moment you're referring to, I think,

[8:21] which we is in the book and and we're

[8:23] dramatizing the show is this um

[8:26] my my dad would if my mom would ever put

[8:29] on makeup or done her hair or anything,

[8:31] he would always call her a tart.

[8:33] And he would always

[8:34] sort of try and get me to take part in

[8:36] this some

[8:38] game where he would say, "What is she?

[8:40] What is your mother?"

[8:41] And I would sort of, you know,

[8:44] frightened of my father's masculinity

[8:45] like

[8:46] "She's a tart." Yeah, "She's a tart."

[8:48] And it was this like call and response.

[8:50] And um there was a moment where

[8:53] you see it in the show, we we sort of

[8:55] had to leave this holiday early because

[8:58] uh

[9:00] my dad had stolen some jewelry, which

[9:02] actually turned out to be fake. And so

[9:04] there was we just got away with a fine,

[9:06] but you know, the the usual chaos was

[9:09] was following us.

[9:10] And I and

[9:12] you you see on screen um

[9:15] that I'm hungry and and I and we just

[9:17] can't get any food right now cuz cuz

[9:19] we're just like managing the situation

[9:20] and we're having to return home and what

[9:22] are we going to tell the neighbors and

[9:24] things like that. And so I called my

[9:25] mother a tart to to try and kind of gain

[9:29] that authority because that's what I'd

[9:31] been, you know, six, seven years old,

[9:33] this this is what I've been trained to

[9:34] do.

[9:35] And my dad was furious with me.

[9:37] Um and you know, it was really hard

[9:40] writing that scene.

[9:41] Uh you know, it he said, "Come over

[9:43] here. If you ever talk to your mother

[9:45] that way again, I'll kill you. Do you

[9:46] understand that? I'll end you."

[9:48] And uh

[9:51] I I think about that a lot when I'm in

[9:53] HMP Feltham or these prisons that have a

[9:56] lot of very young men. I'm like,

[9:58] it's so confusing, isn't it? It's so

[10:01] like learning masculinity

[10:03] is so confusing. And And you're learning

[10:05] it off of people who are so confused

[10:08] themselves. And And And this

[10:11] this code, this unwritten implicit code

[10:15] is

[10:16] is so hard. And in the way that In a way

[10:19] the book is a sort of trying to unpack

[10:20] that

[10:21] >> Yeah.

[10:21] >> code.

[10:23] >> And we'll come back to masculinity cuz I

[10:24] want to you know, want us to talk about

[10:26] that. You know, one of the things we

[10:27] were talking about is that 95% of people

[10:30] in prison are men. So, you know,

[10:32] we we must sort of properly explore

[10:34] that. Before we talk about I want to

[10:36] carry on with you a bit more. Um and

[10:39] that this that's the effect it had on

[10:41] you. Um

[10:43] you talk about this executioner all the

[10:45] way through the book. And this this this

[10:47] sense this binary sense of am I a good

[10:50] person or a bad person? And you know, I

[10:52] think everybody has that sense

[10:53] sometimes, don't they? Am I a good

[10:55] person or a bad person? But in your

[10:58] given your father and then your brother

[11:00] and and your uncle as you say,

[11:02] that's been really heightened in your

[11:04] life. So, I wonder whether you could say

[11:05] a bit about that sort of executioner.

[11:07] >> Yeah, so um

[11:09] I think there's a kind of

[11:12] it's it's very undiscovered, I think, as

[11:14] as a kind of human experience. Um

[11:17] but the children of

[11:19] um you know, people who've committed

[11:22] serious offenses and things like that,

[11:24] um do

[11:25] do carry some of that stigma in society.

[11:29] Um

[11:30] At a time when you know, your brain is

[11:31] not quite formed. And so for me there

[11:33] was a real sense of inherited shame, you

[11:37] know, this kind of sins of the father

[11:39] guilt.

[11:40] Uh

[11:41] and it was very psychological. It was It

[11:43] was this kind of dread feeling that

[11:46] have I committed a crime?

[11:48] Or am I about to or it it it felt very

[11:50] fatalistic.

[11:51] And um

[11:53] it was like having some kind of judge or

[11:54] prosecutor kind of in your head. Some

[11:56] someone who's about to send you down,

[11:58] you know.

[11:59] Um

[12:01] and and I I suppose what that was was

[12:03] just, you know,

[12:05] uh

[12:05] the feeling that everybody has

[12:08] uh

[12:08] that you you really don't want to turn

[12:10] into your dad, you know. I don't I think

[12:12] your dad can be like an English

[12:14] literature teacher. Can be like I don't

[12:16] want to be my dad.

[12:17] >> Yeah.

[12:18] >> But it just happens that my dad was like

[12:20] really violent.

[12:21] >> Oh yeah.

[12:22] >> Um you know, and so you know, I had I

[12:25] sort of had this

[12:27] kind of really overactive superego which

[12:30] which cashed out in terms of like a lot

[12:31] of obsessive

[12:33] behaviors, obsessive like mental rituals

[12:36] just to try and kind of

[12:38] make sure I didn't didn't follow that

[12:40] path. And part of it's just in your

[12:43] head, but part of it's, you know,

[12:46] if you're naughty at school, you're

[12:47] misbehaving or whatever,

[12:49] uh

[12:50] a kid can just be misbehaving, but if

[12:52] someone knows who your dad was, knows

[12:53] who's your who your brother was,

[12:55] it's like okay. And so that narrative

[12:58] kind of follows you. So

[13:00] um

[13:01] >> Was that a very real thing when when you

[13:03] were young that you know, that people

[13:05] knew about your father and your brother

[13:07] and then was cuz that's the dangerous

[13:08] and you get tarred by the same brush as

[13:10] a traditional artist.

[13:11] >> I think so. Yeah,

[13:12] I spent my teen years living somewhere

[13:14] else which which helped more than I

[13:16] realized probably.

[13:18] And

[13:20] >> [snorts]

[13:22] >> yeah, I think I think it you sort of go

[13:24] the other way, don't you? These things

[13:25] are so

[13:27] especially in childhood and

[13:29] developmental years, they're so kind of

[13:30] polarized. And I just became the kind of

[13:33] golden boy, you know, and I think that's

[13:35] common for

[13:36] in families that are quite violent or

[13:38] chaotic, you know, and I was the

[13:40] youngest as well and sort of had this

[13:42] sense of like

[13:44] I really don't want to let my mom down,

[13:46] you know, that I that there's this sort

[13:47] of redemption narrative that's kind of

[13:49] been loaded on me and

[13:52] um

[13:53] which has its own

[13:56] thing as well, you know, it's its own

[13:57] thing.

[13:59] >> Wait, it's its own polarization in a

[14:01] sense, isn't it? You know, cuz none of

[14:03] us are that good, are we?

[14:05] Let's face it.

[14:05] >> No comment.

[14:07] >> [laughter]

[14:08] >> And um

[14:10] so, you know, you may you've got your

[14:12] you know, your father's in a very, very

[14:14] aggressive, at least very I felt a sort

[14:16] of sympathy for him as well.

[14:18] Um

[14:19] It's a a more extreme version of

[14:22] experiences that many people have where

[14:24] you know, it's very easy to feel

[14:25] slighted and if you're insecure and then

[14:28] you mask that with lots of shame and

[14:30] aggressive that that's not unusual.

[14:33] But you know, it's quite a a figure to

[14:34] have as a father. And then your your

[14:36] brother's heroin addiction, your your

[14:39] uncle's kind of vain glory about um

[14:43] prison.

[14:44] How did you get from

[14:45] I mean, it's very interesting I think

[14:46] you ended up in prison,

[14:48] you know, but by a different route. How

[14:50] did you end up in prison by a different

[14:51] route?

[14:53] >> Um I mean, it was always a a

[14:55] preoccupation I suppose, you know, it

[14:57] was always like

[14:59] especially cuz there was that thing you

[15:01] know, my brother just I'd meet him at

[15:03] the gate on a Friday when he'd get out

[15:05] and he just wouldn't want to talk to me

[15:06] about it, you know, he was like, I don't

[15:08] I don't want you to know about this,

[15:09] which of course meant I went and watched

[15:11] Scum by Alan Clarke or I went and

[15:13] watched Oz and I just watched these

[15:15] really like graphic violent prison

[15:17] things.

[15:18] So, it was always a preoccupation and

[15:20] then

[15:21] you You my life changed a lot in my of

[15:23] mid to late teens when I I left school

[15:25] with two GCSEs and and ended up kind of

[15:28] going back and getting into philosophy

[15:30] just through a a great relationship with

[15:32] some teachers.

[15:34] And um

[15:37] And then at university, I think

[15:39] the strange thing about philosophy is

[15:40] cuz it's so analytical and it's so it it

[15:44] promotes this kind of disinterested form

[15:46] of inquiry where you kind of leave your

[15:48] self at the door.

[15:50] Um

[15:52] I had this kind of cultural mobility.

[15:54] Uh

[15:55] But there there was real like loss in

[15:57] that as well, you know, there were there

[15:59] was some that that the sort of things

[16:01] that you learn

[16:02] surviving the world that I was surviving

[16:04] growing up weren't assets anymore, you

[16:06] know, instead you needed to know about

[16:07] Bertrand Russell or you needed to know

[16:08] about Wittgenstein. You needed to know

[16:09] about these things.

[16:11] Um and then and then I remember in my

[16:13] mid-20s I heard there were these

[16:15] academic philosophers who were going

[16:17] into prison teaching. And I just I felt

[16:20] so

[16:20] >> upset.

[16:22] >> You know, that the thing I had given up.

[16:24] >> Mhm.

[16:25] >> Now they [ __ ] had it.

[16:27] Do you know what I mean? Like

[16:29] what's like

[16:31] I And so it was with a certain

[16:33] resentment, actually. I was like

[16:36] can I do this, please?

[16:38] Um

[16:39] >> Well, you are better qualified to do it.

[16:42] >> Or worse qualified depending on your

[16:44] interpretation. But but somehow

[16:46] something I'd given up, I was seeing

[16:49] handed back to me by someone else and

[16:51] that's painful.

[16:53] And And so I just thought, you know, why

[16:55] don't I why don't I try this? And And

[16:58] then the first prison I worked in

[17:00] was Belmarsh, the maximum security

[17:02] prison here. Bit of a baptism of fire.

[17:05] Uh but that was 10 years ago. I think

[17:07] I've worked in about 35 prisons since.

[17:10] >> But you know, why why philosophy? I

[17:12] mean, you could have done lit crit, you

[17:14] could have done you know, lots of other

[17:16] things. It it it's striking, isn't it,

[17:18] that you had this your life gave birth

[17:20] to lots of questions about morality,

[17:23] about masculinity, about violence, about

[17:28] You know, one of the things you always

[17:29] feel I I always feel when I, you know,

[17:31] look at

[17:33] stories like this is it could have been

[17:34] any of us. You know, the you know, all

[17:36] you need to do be doing is be stolen as

[17:38] a baby and, you know,

[17:40] raised by a gang and guess what? You You

[17:43] know, you wouldn't be reading Victor

[17:44] Stein and you wouldn't be going to see

[17:47] Sense and Sensibility, you know. Um

[17:49] you know, you wouldn't be worrying about

[17:51] various things. You'd be doing that, you

[17:52] know.

[17:53] So,

[17:55] one of the great questions is not your

[17:56] fault if you see what I mean. You You

[17:58] know, you you become a natural product

[18:00] of your conditioning. Um

[18:04] So, you you know, somehow you your life

[18:06] sort of presented you

[18:08] very strongly with questions right from

[18:10] the beginning. Um and it, you know, it

[18:12] can't quite be a happenstance that you

[18:14] end up doing philosophy, which is what

[18:16] philosophers do primarily is ask

[18:18] questions, isn't it?

[18:19] >> Yeah, I think I think um

[18:23] you know, I I I think it's it's very

[18:25] like fine. It's very subtle what

[18:27] philosophy is and and what it isn't. And

[18:29] um

[18:30] it's so different from something like

[18:31] debating. You know, you kind of argue

[18:33] for a position and I think philosophy

[18:36] some something about philosophical

[18:38] engagement is like you're you're always

[18:39] aware of the plurality in the world, the

[18:42] plurality of ideas, the fact that your

[18:45] idea sits in tension with another.

[18:48] And and there's something about

[18:50] straddling worlds,

[18:52] uh which is what I felt like I was

[18:54] doing, you know, going in and out of

[18:56] prison and

[18:57] and and stuff like that as a as a kid,

[18:59] you know, visiting family that

[19:01] life just didn't exist on one level and

[19:04] I think philosophy really honors that.

[19:06] >> Yeah.

[19:06] >> Um and then yeah, you know, questions

[19:09] like

[19:10] the the problem of moral luck in

[19:12] philosophy, you know, that we're

[19:14] responsible for

[19:16] ourselves and our choices, but who we

[19:18] are, our temperament, where we grow up,

[19:20] the kind of conditioning we receive, the

[19:22] outcomes of our choices, there's so much

[19:24] randomness in that.

[19:26] Um and

[19:28] that to me just it was such a great

[19:31] place to work through this

[19:34] sentiment I had, I think,

[19:37] that came out of my relationship with my

[19:38] brother, that, you know,

[19:40] he's been to prison a dozen times.

[19:43] I've only ever been to prison with sort

[19:45] of keys on my belt.

[19:47] And yet we're brothers and we're

[19:49] related. And just this feeling,

[19:51] unshakeable feeling, really undeniable

[19:54] feeling that each of us could have been

[19:56] anybody else.

[19:58] Just just how kind of

[20:00] frighteningly contingent life is. And

[20:03] philosophy is a place where you can pour

[20:05] those

[20:07] thoughts and you can work through them

[20:09] and

[20:09] and and you know, I spoke about kind of

[20:11] obsessive obsession ality, kind of OCD.

[20:15] Again, it's a great it's a great place

[20:17] for all of that to kind of

[20:19] to move somewhere as well.

[20:22] >> Well, it's interesting cuz just thinking

[20:23] from a Buddhist lens for a minute, you

[20:24] know, that

[20:26] Buddhism would

[20:27] would would really emphasize taking

[20:29] really emphasize taking responsibility

[20:31] for your actions. It doesn't talk so

[20:33] much about the conditions that you arise

[20:36] out of it. So,

[20:37] it very I mean, I think because Buddhism

[20:39] is always addressing the individual,

[20:41] it's very strongly saying

[20:43] that your sense of your agency is never

[20:46] a zero. I mean, that's

[20:48] that's how the philosopher Charles

[20:49] Taylor puts it, which I thought was a a

[20:50] good way of putting it, is that

[20:52] you know, your agency can feel like it's

[20:54] a zero. You can feel like you have to

[20:56] behave in the way you do. And often we

[20:59] all feel that at one time or another,

[21:00] don't we? You don't doesn't need to take

[21:02] you to prison. Um but often we feel that

[21:04] I just couldn't behave any other way.

[21:06] Buddhism has always wanted to say,

[21:09] "That's not quite true." How would you

[21:11] square that with It's tricky isn't it?

[21:13] We I want to We'll get onto this a bit

[21:15] more later on, but

[21:17] this whole question of

[21:19] how do you have responsibility and do

[21:21] justice to conditions? Because you know,

[21:24] um if we you know, if I'd been smuggled

[21:26] away

[21:27] and brought up by a gang I'd be a I

[21:29] wouldn't be this guy, you know, um

[21:31] it's very difficult to balance both.

[21:34] >> Yeah. Yeah, um

[21:38] I mean I think there's two problems with

[21:42] There's two threats to the idea of moral

[21:44] responsibility. One is the kind of moral

[21:46] luck I was talking about just now that

[21:49] um

[21:51] the margins are small there but for the

[21:53] grace of God go I, you know, I think I

[21:55] think we have an instinctive sense of

[21:56] that.

[21:57] Uh and the other is the problem of

[21:59] determinism that actually what if free

[22:03] will is just entirely

[22:05] illusory? What if it's just a

[22:08] It's it's just a fantasm in our

[22:09] consciousness, but actually we're just

[22:11] we're just a playing out of atoms and

[22:14] we're just we're just a cog in the

[22:15] machine and actually we don't have any

[22:17] free will.

[22:19] And they're both quite scary and and and

[22:20] they both can be very convincing. Um

[22:23] I think the implication is different in

[22:25] both cases. I think

[22:27] um if if we have no free will and if

[22:29] determinism is true, then we have to

[22:32] live in the world

[22:34] with an illusion

[22:35] that we know is an illusion, but we

[22:37] can't shake it as an illusion. And so we

[22:38] become quite split and quite alienated

[22:41] from ourselves.

[22:43] Whereas if if moral luck is true,

[22:46] it the message that follows on the back

[22:49] of that for me is just just be a bit

[22:51] kinder.

[22:52] Just like suspend judgment a bit more

[22:54] like they're probably having a really

[22:57] bad day

[22:58] or like a bad lifetime or whatever like

[23:01] just um

[23:03] so I so I can kind of integrate that

[23:05] more

[23:06] um

[23:08] and I think that in that situation you

[23:11] there is always room for agency.

[23:12] >> Yeah.

[23:14] Seems an essential thing to

[23:16] to keep coming back to that isn't it

[23:18] there is agency even if it feels like

[23:20] there is nothing.

[23:22] >> There is but

[23:24] you walk down the landing of a prison uh

[23:26] or you see and hear the life stories in

[23:30] there.

[23:30] >> Yeah.

[23:31] >> You know an awful lot of people in

[23:32] prison um

[23:34] just growing up in in the most adverse

[23:36] conditions

[23:38] um and will go back into those

[23:41] conditions when they leave

[23:43] and

[23:45] there is a kind of holding people to

[23:48] account

[23:49] which seems so

[23:52] blind

[23:53] >> Mhm.

[23:53] >> and

[23:55] unaware and even cruel actually so

[23:58] >> Yeah.

[24:00] >> The the job is to remain alive to what

[24:03] someone's level of responsibility is

[24:06] rather than dogmatic to

[24:08] >> I mean let's come back I want to keep

[24:10] keep on exploring that but let's come

[24:12] back to your story as well cuz what I

[24:14] mean it's actually rather brave I think

[24:16] going to teach philosophy in prisons um

[24:19] I mean what you do is you walk into a

[24:20] room and you

[24:22] mostly these guys come and sit in a

[24:24] circle of chairs and you pose a

[24:26] philosophical question to them. As I say

[24:29] philosophers pretty much ask questions

[24:31] generally. Ask questions of where other

[24:34] people don't see questions to be asked.

[24:36] That's one of the exciting things about

[24:37] philosophy is

[24:39] you didn't realize that

[24:41] there's a question here to be asked and

[24:42] a philosopher a good one will ask the

[24:44] question.

[24:45] You are getting people you know

[24:47] some very dangerous people as well in a

[24:49] room

[24:50] and saying I don't know here's what

[24:52] Schopenhauer says he says that we're all

[24:54] if it it's best way to think is that

[24:55] we're all in prison. Then my new lot you

[24:58] know, I'm not sure how I'd feel about

[24:59] that if I was actually in prison. It's

[25:01] It's

[25:02] You know, like, "Okay, I get it. What

[25:04] What has Schopenhauer been doing?" Um

[25:07] So, I

[25:08] How was it How did it feel the first

[25:10] time you went cuz it's quite I think

[25:11] it's quite a brave thing to do. I'm not

[25:14] I'm not sure I could do it.

[25:16] >> Yeah, I mean I mean in the book

[25:19] uh

[25:19] You know, there's a version of this book

[25:21] which is sort of written by the com- the

[25:24] company man who is sort of higher Mr.

[25:26] Philosophy and I'm here to save your

[25:28] soul and uh we all know about Socrates

[25:30] now and we're all rehabilitated.

[25:32] >> Yeah.

[25:32] >> I thought that would be a very boring

[25:35] and dishonest book to write. So, really

[25:38] I thought it was much more interesting

[25:39] to write about my failures and since

[25:41] they're so available um

[25:44] uh

[25:45] that's what I did. And you know,

[25:48] I went into Belmarsh

[25:50] and I was with a another teacher uh

[25:54] who's doing a PhD at King's, great guy

[25:56] called Mike Cockshead. And

[25:58] I guess because of my background, it was

[26:01] like

[26:02] I was like looked to as like

[26:05] I was like the muscle in the room or

[26:07] something.

[26:07] >> Mhm.

[26:08] I've never had that problem.

[26:09] >> [laughter]

[26:13] >> He didn't look to me that way for very

[26:15] long, thankfully.

[26:16] Um

[26:17] And you know, I based it so much on my

[26:20] family. I based what You know, we looked

[26:23] at this lesson plan and it's like, "No,

[26:24] don't do that. Don't do that. Red lines

[26:26] through that." You know, my my my uncle

[26:28] couldn't read. You know, my my family

[26:30] haven't really read my book. You know,

[26:31] my my dad wasn't educated like

[26:35] uh And then you kind of you start

[26:38] teaching and then someone goes, "No,

[26:39] that's that's not what Locke said,

[26:41] actually. He was talking about

[26:42] consciousness not memory." And you're

[26:44] like, "Oh, I've I've lowballed these

[26:47] guys, you know." And

[26:49] these guys come from all over the world

[26:51] and all kinds of backgrounds and he's

[26:53] got a PhD and you know and

[26:56] and you realize

[26:59] that

[27:01] in my head there was prison.

[27:04] And then there was this prison and that

[27:06] prison

[27:07] and that prisoner and that prisoner and

[27:09] they're all unique and they're all

[27:10] different and there is no such thing as

[27:12] the prison or the prisoner.

[27:14] Um and you know it it sounds so obvious

[27:17] but it was one of those things I had to

[27:18] learn the hard way.

[27:20] Um

[27:21] So yeah, so I've been told a few times.

[27:23] I've been

[27:24] been corrected on my philosophical

[27:26] knowledge.

[27:27] Um

[27:29] But yeah, it it

[27:31] it it

[27:32] you know, some people engage with it,

[27:33] some people find it boring, some people

[27:35] just will do anything to get out of

[27:36] their cell cuz they've been banged up

[27:38] for 23 hours a day over the weekend. But

[27:40] I think the people who do connect with

[27:42] it, you know, often if you're in prison,

[27:44] you're you're in a kind of crisis,

[27:46] you're in a spiritual crisis and

[27:49] uh prison doesn't offer a lot, you know,

[27:51] it doesn't and it's offering less and

[27:53] less, you know, there's more and more

[27:55] bang up, there's less meaningful

[27:56] activity.

[27:57] Uh so someone going like, oh, we're

[27:59] going to talk about uh

[28:01] whether we're responsible for our

[28:02] choices today or we're going to talk

[28:04] about consequences or we're going to

[28:05] talk about whether any of us are free or

[28:08] if you're the same person you were 7

[28:10] years ago. Like there is like a hunger

[28:13] to like, yeah, okay, I'll have that

[28:14] conversation. I I kind of need to have

[28:16] that conversation now.

[28:18] >> Mhm. That's really striking. I mean I

[28:20] want to draw out something from there I

[28:21] didn't you know, that I think I haven't

[28:23] seen quite so clearly although you do

[28:25] say in the book which is

[28:27] it's so easy to sort of somehow we've

[28:29] got prison dramas in our you know, like

[28:31] >> Yeah.

[28:32] >> we've just got a sort of

[28:33] bad TV of prison.

[28:35] >> Yeah.

[28:36] >> Which kind of makes them all the you

[28:38] know, all the a generic prisoner if you

[28:40] see what I mean. Well, it it doesn't

[28:42] always but somehow I'm left with a

[28:43] generic prisoner.

[28:44] >> Yeah, I mean that was a real I really

[28:46] felt the responsibility of this when we

[28:48] were shooting waiting for the hour

[28:50] actually and we were thinking about the

[28:52] kind of design of it and

[28:54] the color palette and the room and how

[28:56] we were going to light it and

[28:58] everything of

[28:59] um and just the tone and the energy of

[29:01] it, you know, if if you wrote a TV drama

[29:05] about schools or hospitals or public

[29:08] spaces that the general public just

[29:10] visit every day.

[29:12] And if it was really over raw and

[29:14] hyperbolic and all the teachers were

[29:16] really nasty and strict or whatever,

[29:18] people would they have a nose for that

[29:19] and they would switch off in 60 seconds.

[29:22] If you do it about a prison, people will

[29:24] go, "Whoa, that's what prison's like."

[29:27] And it's not their fault, it's because

[29:29] they can't test it with their

[29:30] experience. They can't go into prison

[29:32] themselves. And over the last 15-20

[29:35] years it's been increasingly hard for

[29:37] journalists to get access to prison.

[29:40] So prisons are this they're behind a

[29:41] wall

[29:43] and they become a great projective

[29:45] canvas because of that. So all of our

[29:47] deepest fears about violence, chaos, our

[29:52] moral kind of dualism about good and

[29:54] evil, all of it just gets thrown onto

[29:57] that canvas, I think.

[29:58] Um

[29:59] and

[30:01] you know, prisons do have violence and

[30:03] they can be chaotic and all of those

[30:04] things do exist, but I think the main

[30:06] thing about prisons

[30:08] is they're just so dreary. You know,

[30:10] they're so boring, they're so stale.

[30:13] Nothing happening, everything's

[30:15] late or canceled. There's sound of

[30:18] daytime TV and

[30:21] you know, that's that's one of the more

[30:24] kind of immediate feelings and and and

[30:26] that's one of the things people are

[30:27] surviving as well as just boredom,

[30:29] inactivity, meaninglessness. So so that

[30:32] was really important to

[30:34] it's it's harder to get across in prose,

[30:36] I think, that, but I was really pleased

[30:38] with how we kind of captured that. So so

[30:41] watch my show, it's really boring.

[30:44] >> [laughter]

[30:45] >> Is it Is it Is there a way in which you

[30:47] can sort of as it were take us into

[30:48] prison just now? You know, sort of

[30:50] what's the what's the expe- cuz I don't

[30:53] I'm I've never been into a prison and uh

[30:56] >> Yeah, I mean

[30:57] >> You're right. I think it is like a

[30:58] shadow It's weird how it's um

[31:01] You know, I've never been to prison. I

[31:02] hardly know anyone who's been in prison.

[31:04] I know some, but not very many.

[31:06] And yet it is like this shadow. Like an

[31:08] other world. We've got this world and

[31:10] then there's the prison world it seems

[31:11] to me, which as you say we play out

[31:14] various sort of dramas in relationship

[31:15] to It's amazing how many prison

[31:18] There's a new one now, isn't there?

[31:19] Time. Um amazing how many prison things

[31:23] there are. Films, series, and so on. We

[31:25] all kind of weirdly fascinated by it.

[31:28] >> Yeah,

[31:29] um

[31:30] you know, to go into prison

[31:33] If you go into to Belmarsh, which I

[31:35] mentioned, you know, Belmarsh was built

[31:36] 30 years ago. Um the corridors are wide.

[31:39] There's lots of natural light. You know,

[31:41] it's it's designed by someone who's

[31:43] trying to understand security and

[31:45] surveillance.

[31:47] Pentonville was built 180 years ago.

[31:49] It's

[31:50] full of rats and cockroaches. The cell

[31:52] doors are low because people used to be

[31:54] shorter in the time that it was built,

[31:56] you know, it's

[31:57] um

[31:58] but

[31:59] you know, some of these places that have

[32:01] offer more human dignity than others. Um

[32:04] but I think

[32:06] there's

[32:07] One of the reasons I liked philosophy

[32:10] uh and liked and liked writing this book

[32:12] about philosophy wasn't because I wanted

[32:13] to sort of

[32:15] really understand, you know, if

[32:17] Wittgenstein was correct in his sort of

[32:19] theory of language. And

[32:21] it was because I I I I found was asking

[32:23] people philosophical questions

[32:26] in this setting

[32:28] uh people kind of

[32:30] tell you so much about themselves in the

[32:31] way that they answer these questions.

[32:33] And they tell you so much about their

[32:35] circumstance and what they're surviving.

[32:36] So,

[32:38] um a real key moment for me in that,

[32:40] which we talk about in the book and in

[32:42] the show as well, is um

[32:43] the frog and the scorpion.

[32:45] Uh so, um for those of you uh who um

[32:50] would like to be reminded of the frog

[32:51] and the scorpion. Uh there's uh a frog

[32:53] sitting by the river uh on a uh

[32:56] afternoon and the scorpion

[32:59] a scorpion comes up to him and says,

[33:00] "Would you please ferry me across the

[33:01] river on your back? I need to get home

[33:03] before it gets dark."

[33:04] Frog thinks about this and he's a little

[33:06] bit cautious, you know, he can see the

[33:08] scorpion's got a stinger.

[33:10] Uh and the scorpion says, "Look, I I

[33:12] know you're afraid, but um

[33:15] I'm not going to sting you because if I

[33:16] sting you, you'll drown and die and then

[33:19] I'll die as well and then I don't want

[33:20] that."

[33:21] Um and the frog thinks, "Well, that does

[33:23] kind of make sense." And so, he takes

[33:25] him on his back and gets into the water

[33:27] and they start swimming.

[33:29] And then the scorpion stings the frog.

[33:31] And as they're

[33:33] going down, the frog says, "Um why did

[33:36] you do that? Now we'll both die."

[33:39] And the scorpion says, "I couldn't help

[33:40] it. It's my nature."

[33:43] And I remember um

[33:45] being in a prison and and telling this

[33:46] story.

[33:47] And I said, "Who's who's to blame for

[33:49] the deaths of frog and the scorpion?"

[33:52] And there was about 12 men in the room

[33:54] and all of them except for one said it

[33:56] was the frog's fault.

[33:59] Um

[34:01] and I thought, "Wow, that's so telling,

[34:02] you know, because

[34:04] these guys are surviving this place

[34:07] and they're probably surviving whatever

[34:08] life they had before that

[34:10] where

[34:11] trust was very low

[34:14] and cynicism was very high

[34:17] and you weren't sure who was a bad

[34:19] actor.

[34:20] And actually, if you get stung, well,

[34:23] that's your fault. You should be

[34:25] smarter.

[34:26] You should have been asking more

[34:27] questions, you know.

[34:28] And that

[34:30] that's how you survived the landing, you

[34:32] know, and and if And if something bad

[34:34] happens to you, well, that's on you,

[34:36] mate.

[34:36] >> Mhm.

[34:37] >> Um and I thought, "Wow, this this really

[34:39] kind of tells me about this world." The

[34:41] guy who thought the frog wasn't to

[34:43] blame, I think was really trying to kind

[34:46] of push through some kind of change in

[34:48] his life saying,

[34:51] you know, "I've come back to prison so

[34:52] many times. I'd really like to change,

[34:55] but if I sort of

[34:57] blame people

[34:59] every time they try and be kind and

[35:00] every time they try and take a chance on

[35:02] someone,

[35:03] well, how am I ever going to get that

[35:04] opportunity to change?"

[35:06] >> Mhm.

[35:06] >> Uh

[35:07] so, maybe the frog's not a mug here.

[35:09] Maybe he was just

[35:12] trying to move the world forward in some

[35:13] way. And And he got a bit of flak from

[35:15] the other guys for that, for being naive

[35:17] or whatever, but

[35:19] Yeah, I I think I think philosophy kind

[35:21] of illuminates so much uh

[35:23] about who we are and where we are.

[35:26] >> I mean, the the book really does

[35:27] actually um

[35:29] give a picture of being in prison, you

[35:32] know? Um

[35:33] And And the landing, the the fear of it.

[35:35] And as you say, the boredom of it, the

[35:37] terrible tedium of it. And it's not just

[35:39] boredom, it's like this

[35:40] grinding tedium. Um

[35:43] >> Really good. Buy it. Yeah. Grinding

[35:45] [laughter] tedium. Yeah.

[35:46] >> Um

[35:47] But um

[35:49] you know, and and and the thing of the

[35:51] We'll have to come to tea in a minute,

[35:52] but um I would like to touch on this the

[35:55] the vulnerable prisoners, you know? The

[35:58] Cuz prisons are extremely hierarchical.

[36:01] Um not just, you know, the

[36:03] the wardens and so on, but the within

[36:05] the prison itself. Um and dangerously

[36:07] hierarchical. Um And you've got a whole

[36:10] section on vulnerable prisoners, um

[36:12] VPs that you call them. Um

[36:15] I I found that very striking and

[36:17] touching and

[36:20] what would I say? Sort of

[36:22] it presents impossible conundrums to me.

[36:25] Um anyway, perhaps you talk a bit about

[36:27] that kind of hierarchical concerns in

[36:29] prison and the

[36:30] the danger of it and then vulnerable

[36:32] prisoners.

[36:33] >> Yeah, it was one of the hardest chapters

[36:34] to write in the book.

[36:36] Uh, you know, I was writing the book

[36:38] around kind of 2019, 2020, 2021.

[36:41] Um,

[36:43] and vulnerable prisoners are people who

[36:44] can't mix with the rest of the

[36:46] mainstream population most of the time

[36:48] because they've committed a sexual

[36:49] offense.

[36:50] Uh, and so they would be a a target on

[36:53] the landing. Sometimes it's because

[36:55] maybe they're

[36:57] they were a police officer on the out or

[37:00] or they've got a debt on the landing and

[37:01] they need to be kept separate, but a lot

[37:03] of the time um,

[37:05] it's because they've committed a sexual

[37:06] offense and

[37:08] you you know,

[37:10] I'll I'll be teaching a class and and as

[37:13] mainstream prisoners are walking past

[37:14] the window, they're just banging the

[37:16] glass and and you've got to like

[37:18] maintain

[37:19] a sincere conversation about Socrates

[37:23] while this like threat of death is like,

[37:26] "I'm going to kill you." And if I ever

[37:27] get And it's like it's a it's a real

[37:29] like

[37:30] uh, confronting situation.

[37:33] Um,

[37:36] is your question about sort of

[37:38] what do we do with this population? How

[37:40] do we regard them like

[37:42] >> Well, yeah, it's got that

[37:44] you know, that some of these people have

[37:45] done ter- really terrible things, you

[37:47] know, that

[37:48] you know, if I if I if I think about

[37:50] like

[37:51] my daughters for instance, you know,

[37:53] it's sort of

[37:54] I end up in one place with it, but you

[37:56] know, when but they're still people

[37:58] um,

[38:00] in a terrible situation themselves and

[38:02] coming from a terrible situation

[38:03] themselves. You've got this

[38:06] We we think we're in a world of from me

[38:07] at least where we're we're wanting to

[38:09] sort of

[38:10] say more and more which side are we

[38:12] going on

[38:13] as if life could ever be that simple.

[38:16] >> Yeah.

[38:17] You know what what taught me a lot about

[38:21] there's a lot to say about that and and

[38:23] you know, in the book I I tried to say

[38:25] it as sensitively as I could.

[38:27] >> Must have been a difficult whole area to

[38:29] explore.

[38:29] >> Yeah, I was so aware of people who've

[38:31] been victims of of those kind of crimes.

[38:35] I was also just aware of just

[38:37] what I didn't know.

[38:41] There's a lot to say about that crime

[38:42] itself.

[38:44] My book isn't that much about crime.

[38:45] It's about prison which

[38:48] and it's about confinement and it's

[38:50] about living together in that space and

[38:52] there's a guy called Billy Moore

[38:56] who was arrested in Thailand and spent

[38:58] time in prison in Thailand. And I I read

[39:00] his memoir and it it kind of told me

[39:02] something a bit about

[39:05] the status game in prison and and and

[39:08] the intense hierarchy in prison which is

[39:10] in Thailand

[39:12] people who commit sexual offenses would

[39:14] were just treated like any other

[39:15] prisoner.

[39:17] But

[39:19] the after

[39:21] when he first got to prison he was

[39:22] amazed by this and and horrified by it.

[39:25] But then someone came into the prison

[39:27] who'd killed their parents or killed

[39:29] their father I think. And that person

[39:31] was

[39:32] they didn't last very long and it was

[39:34] very gruesome.

[39:35] Um

[39:36] and I think I think what I realized is

[39:38] because prison is so hierarchical

[39:40] because it's a so much about the loss of

[39:42] status

[39:44] um

[39:45] it's really important that there's

[39:46] someone below you if if you're in

[39:49] prison. And and the the prisoner on

[39:52] prisoner hatred

[39:54] of people who've committed sexual

[39:56] offenses is is partly to do with the

[39:58] content of their crime.

[40:00] But it is also partly just to do with

[40:02] this social setup that we've created

[40:04] which is so hierarchical that if it

[40:07] wasn't them it would be someone else. It

[40:09] it it they're kind of a placeholder. And

[40:12] I think separating those two things

[40:15] feels important for moving forward,

[40:17] yeah.

[40:18] >> Mhm.

[40:21] Yes, and

[40:24] I I think one of the

[40:26] I would have a cup of tea and sing and

[40:27] then we'll think more about masculinity,

[40:29] I think, but one of the questions for me

[40:31] from the book is

[40:33] this very, very difficult question of

[40:35] how do you try when it's a theme in the

[40:37] book, how do you try and help people

[40:40] um and be human and humane and see the

[40:45] best in people and to see people can

[40:47] change, which

[40:48] you know, Buddhism is radical in that.

[40:50] It would

[40:51] always say that everyone can change. You

[40:54] but Buddhism doesn't have a sense of

[40:56] being unredeemed or unredeemable. Um

[40:59] there are some Christian gnostics who

[41:01] believe that eventually the

[41:03] the devil is even saved, um but it's not

[41:05] very common in Christianity. Um but

[41:08] Buddhism would

[41:09] it it's very, very clear that there's

[41:12] there's no place is in unredeemable. You

[41:14] can be saved.

[41:16] So, and Buddhists

[41:18] can be really good with that. We can be

[41:19] also to be sentimental about that. Um

[41:22] it's it's very difficult to to to sort

[41:24] of honor

[41:26] the fact that human beings really can

[41:28] change and to

[41:29] I've seen people change from very, very

[41:32] difficult

[41:33] very, very difficult indeed

[41:34] circumstances and it's very difficult

[41:36] for them to change. It's difficult to

[41:38] help them sometimes, but they can

[41:39] change.

[41:40] How do we balance that? And one of the

[41:42] themes of the book is how do we balance

[41:43] that with

[41:45] a really intelligent skepticism about

[41:47] how people actually are.

[41:49] >> Yeah.

[41:49] >> Your book is an as you were saying to me

[41:51] is an is book, not an ought book. This

[41:53] is what poet This is not poet. Where did

[41:55] I get poet from? This is from what

[41:56] prisoners are like, it's not what they

[41:57] should be like.

[41:59] But I wonder whether we can say

[42:00] something before tea about this problem

[42:02] about

[42:02] >> Yeah.

[42:03] >> change and not change.

[42:04] >> So So my next book is kind of about

[42:06] that. This This book I just wanted to

[42:07] kind of describe the world of prison. I

[42:10] wanted to the way it feels, smells, the

[42:13] textures, the emotional reality of it. I

[42:14] didn't want to say, "Oh, by the way,

[42:16] I've got the solution, you know, if you

[42:18] if you look read the epilogue, like it's

[42:19] all there."

[42:21] Um

[42:22] but my next book is is a more kind of

[42:23] moral search, a moral reckoning with

[42:25] these questions. Your question is quite

[42:27] right, and it it's a frog and a scorpion

[42:29] question, all right? Because if you

[42:31] think everyone is a scorpion,

[42:33] you you will have a landing full of

[42:34] scorpions. If If you don't trust people,

[42:36] then the opportunity for moral growth

[42:40] it doesn't start.

[42:42] But if you trust people sentimentally,

[42:45] uh

[42:47] there can be real consequences to that

[42:49] in certain cases.

[42:51] Um

[42:52] I was reading a a book um a couple of

[42:55] years ago, The Confidence Game uh by

[42:58] Maria Konnikova, a New Yorker writer who

[43:00] talks about con artistry, and she she

[43:02] she unpacks the psychology of the con,

[43:06] and particularly the psychology of the

[43:07] mark, the one who gets conned, and

[43:10] and how it in these quite

[43:12] extreme examples, often they're very

[43:14] active

[43:16] in in the dance, you know?

[43:19] And she asked the question of who can be

[43:21] conned?

[43:23] Is it uh you know, uh

[43:25] men or women or old people or young

[43:26] people? Is there a sort of demographic?

[43:28] And she says pretty much everyone can be

[43:29] conned if you're in a period of

[43:31] vulnerability, if you've just been

[43:32] through a breakup, or you've just moved

[43:34] house, or something like that. But she

[43:36] said there is there is a

[43:37] a

[43:38] trait which makes you more con-

[43:40] >> connable.

[43:42] >> Um and that is um how strong your belief

[43:45] is in the possibility of redemption.

[43:49] Um

[43:50] and you know, you she looks at these

[43:52] cases of people who

[43:55] it's so clear they're being conned. It's

[43:56] so, you know,

[43:57] there's a con artist in there who's sold

[43:59] the Eiffel Tower twice

[44:01] to people. It's It's so obvious. And you

[44:04] know, um these people are being fleeced

[44:06] for their savings, or whatever or just

[44:09] all the falling for these kinds of

[44:10] deception. And often when when we're

[44:13] being conned, we're not we're not

[44:15] looking at the person in front of us and

[44:16] assessing them

[44:18] based on the evidence. We're looking

[44:21] kind of up here at our worldview.

[44:23] >> Yeah, cool.

[44:24] >> And the worldview is I want people to be

[44:26] good.

[44:27] I don't want any I just don't want to

[44:29] believe people are that bad, you know? I

[44:31] don't want to succumb to cynicism that

[44:33] feels dead. And so they're trying to

[44:35] preserve that rather than

[44:38] have a kind of evidence-based approach.

[44:40] And what And I would say the same is

[44:41] true for prisons of like actually

[44:44] we need to look at the individuals. And

[44:48] most prison security is just way over

[44:51] the top. It It's to It's to deal with,

[44:54] you know, the 10 or 20% of

[44:57] dangerous people in that prison.

[45:02] The other sort of 70, 80, 90% could live

[45:06] in much lower security conditions with

[45:08] much more meaningful activity, much more

[45:11] relationship building, you know,

[45:13] therapeutic intervention or whatever and

[45:15] and it would be fine. The incidents

[45:16] would be very low. It's just

[45:20] the there's a hyperbolic attitude to

[45:22] security which means we

[45:24] we go over the top.

[45:26] >> It's interesting, isn't it? Cuz so so

[45:28] often prison seems to be just an extreme

[45:31] version of the world because, you know,

[45:33] our world is going to be becoming hyper

[45:35] security conscious and, you know, like

[45:37] because there's a risk that some people

[45:39] could do this, everyone's acting as if

[45:41] that risk is actually real, you know,

[45:43] it's like it's like saying, you know,

[45:45] there are pickpockets in London, so

[45:47] watch out. So before you know it, you

[45:49] start to turn everyone into a potential

[45:50] pickpocket and create a a terrible

[45:52] world. Or I've seen people be very

[45:55] sentimental and silly about

[45:57] what is obviously, you know,

[46:00] questionable. And so that that that

[46:03] they seem real themes in modern life,

[46:05] don't they? We We seem to be

[46:08] wanted to go one way or the other in

[46:09] modern life very much in in a way that

[46:11] it's very very difficult for people to

[46:13] say there might be a bit of both needed.

[46:15] >> Yes. Yeah.

[46:17] >> The really stand another standard area,

[46:19] of course, is the whole question of men.

[46:21] Um

[46:22] 95% of people in prison are men.

[46:25] Um

[46:26] It's a tricky moment now at the at the

[46:28] moment to talk about men or women,

[46:30] gender generally. Um

[46:33] I can never remember whether I'm

[46:34] supposed to say sex or gender, for

[46:35] instance. You know, the even the words

[46:37] have become for me rather difficult. I

[46:39] can never remember which one I'm

[46:40] supposed to

[46:41] say, but

[46:42] you know,

[46:43] and I I can understand that because,

[46:46] you know,

[46:47] many people are now exploring feeling

[46:50] that they don't feel that they like that

[46:51] they belong to particular gender. And um

[46:54] a lot of those people have been had to

[46:56] experience quite a lot of hatred and

[46:58] prejudice. So, I can understand why the

[47:01] instinct is to just stay away from the

[47:03] area.

[47:05] But that that percent 95% of people in

[47:08] prison are men rather goes against that.

[47:11] And I I personally feel that it's a

[47:13] I'd like us to be able to talk about

[47:16] men much more, actually. I I I think we

[47:18] need to talk about women more, as well.

[47:20] Um but I think we need to My own belief

[47:23] is that we need to

[47:25] understand

[47:26] men's psychology, even men's sexuality.

[47:29] I don't mean whether they go straight. I

[47:30] mean,

[47:31] um sexuality in the broadest sense. I

[47:33] think we need to understand that more.

[47:36] And I think when we look at look at even

[47:38] glance, as it were, into prison and see

[47:40] that statistic, that that confirms that

[47:43] to me. Um

[47:44] that there are particular issues

[47:47] that men face, which my own instinct,

[47:49] and you know, of course, I might be

[47:50] wrong, but it's difficult to generalize,

[47:52] but

[47:53] my own instinct is that there's

[47:57] that there's not much cultural sympathy

[47:59] for men.

[48:00] Um That that even at times there's a

[48:02] sort of cynical

[48:03] attitude to men

[48:05] as if men are almost inevitably toxic or

[48:07] something.

[48:08] Um I have met

[48:10] some bad men in my life, not very many

[48:12] actually. I mean probably I wouldn't

[48:13] here at the Buddhist center but

[48:16] probably meet them more in prison.

[48:18] But yeah, I just I I thought it'd be

[48:20] this is a good opportunity for us to

[48:22] start to explore your experience of men

[48:25] in prison.

[48:26] I don't know whether that sets you up to

[48:28] think.

[48:28] >> Yeah, it's funny cuz I I started writing

[48:30] the book in 2018 and

[48:34] when the book came out the the the

[48:37] conversation around it was about prison

[48:40] mainly.

[48:41] And then when we put that on screen in

[48:44] 2026, a lot had happened in the meantime

[48:47] culturally and the the lens through

[48:50] which it was interpreted was oh this is

[48:52] about masculinity.

[48:54] Um so it's really strange because the

[48:56] object hadn't really changed but the

[48:58] culture had changed in terms of how it

[49:00] was interpreting it. Uh and you know,

[49:02] we've had

[49:03] uh

[49:04] things like the manosphere, Andrew Tate,

[49:07] we had

[49:08] um

[49:09] TV show came out last year, Adolescence,

[49:12] which I think

[49:13] was so big that it became the kind of

[49:16] reference point for other things that

[49:17] came out about it but um I mean we we'd

[49:20] completely finalized the script on

[49:23] Waiting for the Out by the time

[49:24] Adolescence came out so

[49:26] we didn't know anything about that and

[49:27] we were just doing our thing. So it's

[49:29] it's one of these things of like

[49:31] we each have our particular experience

[49:33] and then there's this social political

[49:37] interpretation of that which can

[49:40] which it

[49:41] they're both true but they it can feel a

[49:43] bit strange because

[49:46] my story is is not I didn't sit down and

[49:49] go right, okay, which abstract noun will

[49:51] it be? This one? This Oh, masculinity.

[49:53] Okay, yeah. Well, you know, going to

[49:54] write a sort of thing on masculinity. It

[49:56] was just

[49:57] I had this very unresolved experience

[50:01] around my father and my brother and my

[50:03] uncle and it was connected to this place

[50:05] and

[50:06] I went to work in that place and and

[50:08] then I ended up writing about it and,

[50:10] you know,

[50:12] as strange as it sounds, I didn't

[50:13] realize it was about masculinity till

[50:15] much later because you're much more in

[50:17] the kind of immediacy of your

[50:19] experience. So,

[50:20] so um

[50:22] so, you know, people ask me questions a

[50:24] lot this year about masculinity and I

[50:26] sort of think, "Well, why are you asking

[50:27] me?" And

[50:28] and they say, "Well, cuz you wrote this

[50:30] book." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah." Um

[50:32] uh so,

[50:34] yeah, it's it's a it's a very real

[50:35] thing, you know, it's it's a real thing

[50:37] for me personally. Uh that kind of

[50:39] executioner figure in the head, that

[50:41] kind of obsessionality around, you know,

[50:44] am I going to commit a crime? Am I Am I

[50:46] a bad person or whatever? I don't know

[50:48] if that would have quite been the same

[50:51] if I'd been a girl growing up.

[50:54] I think there was something about men

[50:57] and being a boy and that journey.

[51:00] Um I I have met women who've had parents

[51:03] in prison and and they definitely have

[51:05] their own stuff to reckon with and

[51:07] I'm not It's sort of evaluating

[51:09] comparatively. I'm just saying it it may

[51:10] have had a different quality to it.

[51:12] Um I I And so, that's kind of the cards

[51:15] I got dealt and the and the thing I had

[51:17] to work through.

[51:18] Um

[51:21] I'm I mean, it's

[51:24] it's

[51:25] the current reckoning with masculinity.

[51:26] It It does feel a little bit like

[51:28] something is happening on a large

[51:30] cultural scale, you know, around kind of

[51:32] Me Too and things like that, which I I

[51:35] felt like I was going through almost

[51:37] more privately when I was like 15 or 16

[51:40] or something. So, in a sense, I I

[51:41] welcome the the change in conversation.

[51:44] I feel like

[51:46] what we need to confront all of this

[51:47] stuff.

[51:49] Um

[51:50] But in some cases it it it's um

[51:55] A

[51:55] lot of the people I work with feel like

[51:58] there's there's no sympathy for them,

[51:59] you know, partly because of their

[52:01] gender.

[52:02] And then and then very often they belong

[52:04] to kind of marginalized groups anyway in

[52:06] terms of race or class or, you know,

[52:09] a huge percentage of young people in

[52:11] prison grew up in care, you know, they

[52:13] don't they don't have anybody. So

[52:16] And I think I think I think when you

[52:17] don't have anybody your identity labels

[52:21] can be something you kind of

[52:23] reach for

[52:25] and care about much more passionately.

[52:29] Yeah, so men or masculinity it's it's

[52:33] it's really important in in what I'm

[52:34] doing. It's it is really central even

[52:36] though it's sort of taken me a while to

[52:37] realize that.

[52:39] >> And

[52:41] have you got

[52:42] Did you end up with a broader sort of

[52:45] thoughts about

[52:47] masculinity because

[52:48] um

[52:50] I would you know, I was quoting to you

[52:51] something that Camille Paglia said he's

[52:53] very very controversial writer and he

[52:55] should be canceled nowadays but she used

[52:57] to write in the 90s and she said um

[53:00] masculinity is risky and elusive.

[53:03] And um

[53:05] my experience is that

[53:07] being a man is something isn't a given.

[53:10] Um it's something that somehow needs to

[53:12] be

[53:13] achieved or that's very strong sense and

[53:17] of course the instinct now say well, we

[53:18] can deconstruct that, you know, that's a

[53:20] cultural given and it's

[53:22] But I I'm I'm not convinced it is. I

[53:25] think it's a very deep instinct that men

[53:27] have that um

[53:29] you might or might not be a man. Like I

[53:31] grew up in a small town in Warwickshire,

[53:34] you know, a gay man and um

[53:36] for me the more interesting question

[53:38] about being gay now is to do with being

[53:40] a a not to being being gay. You know,

[53:42] being gay just seems to me to like

[53:44] whether you've got curly hair or not.

[53:46] Um

[53:47] but the the the difficult thing for me

[53:50] is did I qualify as a man?

[53:52] Um

[53:53] And you know, it's easy to think well,

[53:55] we we kind of want to dismiss that

[53:56] question now and think well, you know,

[53:57] we can we don't need to. But I my

[54:00] instinct is that you do need that there

[54:02] is something that is to be achieved. And

[54:04] the guys in prison that you write about

[54:07] they're acting out that in a very

[54:09] chaotic and kind of gross way in a

[54:11] certain sense, but

[54:13] I felt a kind of sympathy for their

[54:15] desire to find some sort of dignity as a

[54:17] man. And I mean that in a in a very

[54:19] gendered way, you know.

[54:21] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean there there are, you

[54:23] know, depending on your theory of crime

[54:26] and punishment and what we're actually

[54:27] doing when we lock people up um on a

[54:29] kind of sociological or social

[54:32] psychological level. Um you know, one

[54:35] view is that

[54:36] um

[54:38] we don't we don't bang up men, we bang

[54:40] up failed masculinities. You know, we

[54:42] create a a social and cultural and

[54:44] economic climate that says you have to

[54:47] succeed and acquire wealth and

[54:51] partners and and whatever. And um

[54:54] if if you don't do that,

[54:57] you know,

[54:58] we're going to put you in prison. I I I

[54:59] think America's a really

[55:01] stark illustration of that case where,

[55:04] you know, these these post-industrial

[55:07] towns, cities, states

[55:09] um

[55:11] where, you know,

[55:13] you know, capitalism is just not working

[55:15] for these people anymore and that they

[55:16] don't have the opportunities to succeed

[55:19] uh legitimately, but they're still

[55:22] judged by whether they succeed or not.

[55:25] Uh I mean, America has

[55:27] 5% of the world's population, but it has

[55:30] 25% of the world's prisoners.

[55:32] >> Yeah, well.

[55:33] >> Um and and this is

[55:36] one of the wealthiest, most developed

[55:38] nations that has ever existed in the

[55:40] history of humankind, but it has a

[55:42] quarter of prisoners in the world are

[55:45] banged up in America.

[55:46] Um

[55:48] and for me that goes hand in hand with

[55:49] the

[55:50] the the free market

[55:52] economic model that they have the the

[55:54] free market capitalism model. So, it's

[55:56] it's

[55:57] it's not necessarily being a man that's

[55:58] bad, but it's being a failed man that's

[56:00] bad. And it what you say in terms of

[56:02] masculinity

[56:04] being something you can achieve or not.

[56:07] Often we don't regard it as toxic if

[56:10] it's achieved, we regard it as toxic if

[56:12] it's not achieved.

[56:14] That's not to say there's not some

[56:17] very accomplished men who

[56:19] >> Cool.

[56:20] >> don't do very harmful things, of course

[56:22] not. But um

[56:24] yeah, I think I think it again, it's a

[56:26] bit like what I was saying about VPs in

[56:28] the Billy Moore story in Thailand

[56:30] we have to almost see through the

[56:31] content to the form and and and to the

[56:34] status game

[56:35] >> Mhm.

[56:35] >> that's happening, you know? There's that

[56:37] um

[56:39] Norman Mailer

[56:40] line that um two men walk down the

[56:42] street and nod at each other, one of

[56:44] them loses.

[56:46] And

[56:48] that was Mailer's worldview pretty much

[56:50] that masculinity is a game of status and

[56:53] for me to be a man

[56:55] you have to not be, you know, only one

[56:57] of us can win.

[56:58] Um now I don't believe that.

[57:00] >> No.

[57:01] >> But

[57:02] if you were going to believe that

[57:05] prison would be the place

[57:07] where you can

[57:09] foster that belief, you know?

[57:11] Um

[57:13] outside in the Buddhist center, for

[57:16] example, conditions are different and we

[57:18] don't we don't have to play that game or

[57:20] we don't have to play that game quite so

[57:21] crudely, but

[57:23] but that can be the game on the landing,

[57:25] yeah.

[57:25] >> Yeah. And you know, that that

[57:29] I I think that the instinct I I I can't

[57:32] talk for women, but the instinct for men

[57:34] is is to

[57:36] compete.

[57:38] And I think it's a very

[57:39] deep instinct.

[57:41] You can get better at it and you can do

[57:43] it cooperatively. In a way the the aim

[57:45] must be for men to compete cooperatively

[57:48] cuz the the value of competition of

[57:50] course is it brings out the best in you

[57:51] at best. You know, if you want to swim

[57:54] faster, you swim with someone who's

[57:56] better than you.

[57:57] You know, you don't You don't like

[57:59] somebody swimming past you. You know,

[58:01] apparently that's why you can race

[58:02] horses cuz they don't like

[58:04] horses running past them. You know,

[58:06] they're they're instinctively

[58:10] competitive. Um

[58:11] It's just how well you can do it and how

[58:14] reflective you can be about it. But I

[58:16] think that you can't weed it out. Um you

[58:20] know, I've been a bit involved in the

[58:21] poetry world and

[58:23] you know, never mind squash, try poetry

[58:26] for competitive sport. I'm going to

[58:28] You know, even the most sort of

[58:30] apparently sort of sweet worlds, you

[58:32] know, they've got competition written

[58:34] all the way through them.

[58:36] And I think trying to deconstruct that

[58:39] is foolish. I think what we're trying to

[58:41] What I'd like to see us do is get better

[58:43] at doing that in a way that genuinely

[58:45] brings out something good in you rather

[58:47] than

[58:48] It's that awful compete

[58:50] in such as as long as other people lose.

[58:52] That's why cheating is so bad, isn't it?

[58:54] It's because

[58:55] you you you get that you you know, you

[58:57] haven't brought anything out in yourself

[58:59] at all. You know, you It's just this a

[59:01] crude status game and men can do that.

[59:04] Uh

[59:06] But there is something I think hard

[59:08] hardwired is my instinct. I don't know

[59:10] whether that chimes with your

[59:12] experience.

[59:12] >> Well, I I suppose the implication for me

[59:15] is

[59:16] again just just how

[59:18] just how prisons are such poor moral

[59:22] and spiritual environments, you know, in

[59:25] that Um

[59:27] if that is

[59:29] the nature

[59:30] of the men inside there, then actually

[59:33] there's not a lot of opportunity to turn

[59:35] those instincts into something positive.

[59:37] And there's certainly not a lot of

[59:38] opportunity to

[59:39] build something together and cooperate,

[59:41] which is sounds like what you were

[59:42] saying. You can sort of turn that into

[59:44] kind of teams and a mutual sense of

[59:46] betterment, you know. Um

[59:49] I mean, uh you know, that there was this

[59:51] word that entered the dictionary last

[59:53] year in shitification.

[59:54] >> Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah.

[59:55] >> of in shitification. I I I was chatting

[59:58] with a a friend the other day and we

[59:59] were talking about just there's less

[1:00:01] meaningful activity in prisons, there's

[1:00:03] more bang up, there's more

[1:00:04] administration, there's less human

[1:00:06] contact, human relationship.

[1:00:09] Oh, prisons have been in shitified. And

[1:00:13] you'd think they were already sort of

[1:00:14] sufficiently in shitified. They were the

[1:00:17] original in in shitified. But but

[1:00:20] actually I I think um

[1:00:24] as as I understand that term, you know,

[1:00:26] it means that almost like the the

[1:00:27] humanity is being subtracted from our

[1:00:30] experience. You know, you get you order

[1:00:32] an Uber and you don't talk to, you know,

[1:00:34] I'd like no conversation, please.

[1:00:37] All of these things, these like just

[1:00:39] just this like tech and management and

[1:00:42] admin just kind of

[1:00:44] covering over human experience.

[1:00:46] Prisons are kind of that

[1:00:48] they're heaving bureaucracies, they're

[1:00:50] impersonal. The staff don't last more

[1:00:52] than 6 months, you know, it's it's this

[1:00:55] it's it's that kind of environment. So

[1:00:57] it's so it's not an environment where

[1:00:59] um

[1:01:01] you can even begin to talk about

[1:01:02] channeling

[1:01:03] the, you know, okay, we've got these men

[1:01:06] maybe they're here because they are

[1:01:08] quite

[1:01:09] you know, it's it's one of the lines

[1:01:10] that the character says in episode one,

[1:01:11] like look around the room, do you think

[1:01:13] anyone here isn't here because they

[1:01:14] weren't trying to impress a girl on some

[1:01:16] level? And they would kind of look at

[1:01:17] their feet and

[1:01:18] it's like, okay, well, where can you go

[1:01:20] with that? Yeah.

[1:01:21] >> Well, in here

[1:01:24] not very far.

[1:01:26] >> I mean, that's really interesting cuz it

[1:01:28] it is a really difficult thing to work

[1:01:30] with that competitive instinct cuz you

[1:01:32] can't weed it out.

[1:01:34] Uh it's often utterly point missing. You

[1:01:37] know, you you meet guys who are you

[1:01:39] know, compete with you on the flight is

[1:01:40] just completely point missing and

[1:01:41] actually really irritating.

[1:01:43] Um

[1:01:44] but often for instance, you need to

[1:01:45] start to admit the insecurity that

[1:01:49] is part of the driver. I don't think

[1:01:50] it's just the driver cuz I think as I

[1:01:53] say, I think

[1:01:54] healthy people do

[1:01:55] commit compete. Um my own teacher

[1:01:58] Sangharakshita says that the the most

[1:02:01] competitive men are the men who won't

[1:02:02] compete

[1:02:03] because they they can't bear the idea of

[1:02:05] failing. So, they they present and this

[1:02:07] is what can easily happen in religious

[1:02:09] circles. They present themselves as very

[1:02:11] mild and sweet and domesticated and then

[1:02:14] you're above that, but really they're

[1:02:16] fiercely competitive cuz they won't do

[1:02:18] it. Healthy men uh healthy women will

[1:02:21] compete and they they they'll benefit

[1:02:24] from losing. I mean, one of the things

[1:02:25] that competitive sport does I think is

[1:02:28] just teaches children how to lose and

[1:02:30] how to lose well. One of the things we

[1:02:32] need to learn in life and you know,

[1:02:34] Buddhism would want to encourage you to

[1:02:35] learn is how to fail well and not have

[1:02:39] it catastrophic where your whole sense

[1:02:42] of yourself implode. You know, that's

[1:02:44] why we still admire good sportsmanship,

[1:02:47] don't we? We we really admire players

[1:02:49] who say, "Yeah, they they played better

[1:02:50] and I didn't do as well." You know, you

[1:02:52] want that kind of honor. It's an honor

[1:02:54] game, you know, um

[1:02:57] but you often in in the process that you

[1:02:59] still have to admit actually, "Do you

[1:03:00] know what? It's I'm being driven by this

[1:03:02] by insecurities." Now, how you'd ever

[1:03:04] get to that in prison, I don't know.

[1:03:06] >> Yeah, it's not an easy place to admit

[1:03:08] insecurity. I I I suppose um

[1:03:11] one experience I've had that's hopeful

[1:03:13] on that level

[1:03:14] is for For last couple of years I've

[1:03:16] been working in a place called HMP

[1:03:17] Grendon,

[1:03:18] uh which is um

[1:03:21] an exclusively therapeutic setting. It's

[1:03:24] for people who've committed very serious

[1:03:26] offenses on very long sentences.

[1:03:28] And it's quite hard to get into, um

[1:03:32] but quite easy to get thrown out of. Uh

[1:03:35] you have to write a letter to the

[1:03:36] governor saying,

[1:03:38] >> Mhm.

[1:03:38] >> "This is me. This is who I am. This is

[1:03:39] why I want to come here, you know,

[1:03:40] you're going to be in group therapy

[1:03:42] every morning.

[1:03:43] >> Wow.

[1:03:43] >> Uh

[1:03:44] you're going to be really confronting

[1:03:45] yourself, what you did.

[1:03:48] There's

[1:03:48] the prison hierarchy is as much as

[1:03:50] possible just kind of abolished. So, you

[1:03:52] will be in a room with

[1:03:54] a sex offender.

[1:03:56] Um

[1:03:57] you do have to tolerate that. Um

[1:04:00] people who stay there for more than 18

[1:04:02] months, the the the

[1:04:04] probability of them reoffending goes

[1:04:06] down uh dramatically.

[1:04:08] Um

[1:04:10] it's a it's a tough environment, but it

[1:04:12] but it is an environment where I've

[1:04:13] where

[1:04:15] I've I've heard people

[1:04:16] be much more

[1:04:18] soulful, sensitive, reflective, um

[1:04:24] and and admit vulnerabilities, yeah.

[1:04:26] >> And it's being cultivated, isn't it? You

[1:04:28] know, like you can imagine if if you can

[1:04:30] create an environment where somebody

[1:04:31] could admit it, somebody else will start

[1:04:33] to admit it as well.

[1:04:34] >> Yes.

[1:04:36] Yeah.

[1:04:36] >> Cuz we're group animals, so

[1:04:38] without an environment, it's just you

[1:04:40] can imagine in most prisons it's just

[1:04:42] too dangerous. You can't possibly do

[1:04:43] that.

[1:04:43] >> Yeah, yeah. Um whereas that that culture

[1:04:46] does kind of reward

[1:04:49] a more vulnerable process.

[1:04:50] >> Mhm.

[1:04:53] Is there anything else we could value

[1:04:55] Ah, the the other thing I

[1:04:56] So, you know,

[1:04:57] part of this whole question I mean is

[1:04:59] you visiting a women's prison.

[1:05:01] >> Yeah.

[1:05:01] >> Um

[1:05:02] and you know, that you you you talk

[1:05:04] about a a time where someone's saying to

[1:05:05] you, "That's when it'll kill you. It's

[1:05:07] when you go to a women's prison."

[1:05:10] Um I think it'd be good to tell that

[1:05:11] little story and then explain say a

[1:05:13] little bit about the experience of

[1:05:14] women's prisons.

[1:05:15] >> Yeah, so I guess I'd kind of

[1:05:18] you know, after a

[1:05:19] few years of working in prisons, I was I

[1:05:21] was aware that it was kind of bringing

[1:05:23] bringing me into confrontation with my

[1:05:25] own kind of masculine

[1:05:27] uh

[1:05:29] side and and history and you know,

[1:05:31] reckoning with this kind of sense of the

[1:05:33] father shame. And then someone said, "Do

[1:05:35] you want to go and teach in a woman's

[1:05:36] prison for a few months?" And I was

[1:05:37] like, "Oh yeah, that would be

[1:05:40] that would be a day off, you know, that

[1:05:41] would be easy."

[1:05:42] And and then I remember going through

[1:05:44] one of my last days in the men's

[1:05:45] prisons. I was going through security,

[1:05:47] you know, it's like airport security.

[1:05:48] You take everything off and whatever.

[1:05:50] And the governor

[1:05:52] came in and

[1:05:53] I remember he he had this world's best

[1:05:55] dad socks on his feet.

[1:05:58] >> [laughter]

[1:05:58] >> Uh I said, "Oh, I'm going to a woman's

[1:06:00] prison." He was like, "Oh, I can't stand

[1:06:02] women's prisons."

[1:06:04] And I said, "Why?" And he said,

[1:06:06] "Just the stories those women have, you

[1:06:08] know,

[1:06:09] pimps, abusive boyfriends, fathers. It

[1:06:12] just makes you feel so bad about being a

[1:06:14] man."

[1:06:16] And I was like, "Oh, okay, so it's not

[1:06:17] going to be a day off then."

[1:06:19] This is like

[1:06:21] the men's prison was just the

[1:06:22] preparation for like this thing. Um

[1:06:26] uh

[1:06:27] It it was it was a really different

[1:06:28] experience aside from my own kind of

[1:06:30] neurosis that I kind of bring to it. It

[1:06:33] it was a really different experience. Um

[1:06:36] Women's prisons are a lot smaller.

[1:06:38] There's a lot less bang up. There are a

[1:06:39] lot less violence in women's prisons. In

[1:06:42] in men's prisons there's like 1,300

[1:06:43] people

[1:06:45] in you know, Belmarsh or whatever. And

[1:06:46] even though they're on the same landing,

[1:06:49] I

[1:06:50] they come into my room and they don't

[1:06:51] know each other's names a lot of the

[1:06:53] time. And I have to create create this

[1:06:55] community and create this trust and

[1:06:57] rapport. Whereas women's prisons have

[1:06:59] 300 people in them. And they all know

[1:07:02] each other very well.

[1:07:04] And and they would be in the room and I

[1:07:07] would kind of have to be accepted into

[1:07:09] their community much more.

[1:07:11] Um

[1:07:13] most of my work is still in men's

[1:07:15] prisons, and I've I've done

[1:07:17] I've had various kind of phases in

[1:07:19] women's prisons.

[1:07:20] Um

[1:07:21] I always just found it a lot easier on

[1:07:22] an education level. It's like, "Oh, wow,

[1:07:24] these people are really

[1:07:26] bright and engaged and

[1:07:29] Um but yeah, I think I think it is a

[1:07:31] it's a diff- it's a very different

[1:07:32] circumstance and it's a different

[1:07:34] journey, but it is one again that makes

[1:07:35] you think about

[1:07:37] um

[1:07:39] men and masculinity and

[1:07:41] Yeah.

[1:07:42] >> And the other thing that I noticed I I

[1:07:44] struggled with with that and throughout

[1:07:46] the book is this

[1:07:48] whole question about how how trying to

[1:07:50] help them or not. There's a a woman

[1:07:52] tries to give you a Mars bar in the

[1:07:53] women's prison.

[1:07:54] >> Yeah.

[1:07:56] >> And you're not allowed to take them, you

[1:07:57] know, it'd be good to hear that as well,

[1:07:59] I think.

[1:07:59] >> Yeah, I mean, this is more frog and

[1:08:01] scorpion stuff, really, but

[1:08:03] >> a theme, isn't it, Ru?

[1:08:04] >> Yeah, you know, um

[1:08:07] you know,

[1:08:08] like in the break, the women would like

[1:08:11] slightly argue with each other about who

[1:08:13] was going to make me a cup of tea or not

[1:08:15] because they they all wanted to do it.

[1:08:17] And, you know, someone had some

[1:08:18] chocolate.

[1:08:19] >> in the men's group.

[1:08:20] >> [laughter]

[1:08:22] >> Uh and

[1:08:25] and, you know, it was it it

[1:08:28] This this woman, you know,

[1:08:31] I guess she was in her like mid-60s,

[1:08:33] been in prison a long time. She just had

[1:08:35] some chocolate. She wanted to give me

[1:08:36] some chocolates. It was a kind of

[1:08:37] maternal instinct, kind of. But I'm

[1:08:39] like, "I'm not allowed to take these.

[1:08:41] I'm really sorry." And it's like, "Well,

[1:08:42] why?" You know, I just

[1:08:44] And and it's it's those

[1:08:47] This is the thing, you know, when we

[1:08:48] talk about prison dramas being like

[1:08:50] really violent and uh you know, people

[1:08:52] getting shanked in the showers and

[1:08:53] stuff. Yeah, that that does happen and

[1:08:56] and can you imagine surviving that? But

[1:08:59] actually, it's it's the death by a

[1:09:00] thousand cuts mm, that really kills

[1:09:03] people. It's the I'm not allowed to give

[1:09:05] you a chocolate anymore because security

[1:09:09] have said I can't do that. We're not

[1:09:11] allowed. And and this this natural human

[1:09:13] instinct

[1:09:15] the state has said I can't do that

[1:09:17] anymore because,

[1:09:19] you know, over a crime I committed 12

[1:09:22] years ago. And it's like,

[1:09:23] "Oh, this is really suffocating, you

[1:09:26] know, your identity and your

[1:09:28] you know,

[1:09:29] yeah."

[1:09:30] >> And it's

[1:09:31] but and again it's that the scorpion and

[1:09:34] frog thing cuz,

[1:09:36] you know, that the theory is that, you

[1:09:37] know, they that's how people work you,

[1:09:39] you know, first of all they say give you

[1:09:41] a chocolate, then you say then they say,

[1:09:43] "Could you top up my mobile phone?" You

[1:09:45] know, there there's a whole thing. So,

[1:09:47] it'd be good to hear the other side if

[1:09:49] you could.

[1:09:49] >> Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you did want to

[1:09:51] groom me, chocolate is definitely

[1:09:53] >> [laughter]

[1:09:54] >> We have got chocolate in your ordering

[1:09:56] thing.

[1:09:56] >> in that. [clears throat] I'm just

[1:09:57] advertising that,

[1:09:58] um,

[1:09:59] to the room.

[1:09:59] >> There was a chocolate run just before

[1:10:01] you.

[1:10:02] >> [laughter]

[1:10:03] >> Yeah, I mean, you know, there will be

[1:10:04] prisoners who, you know, you build up a

[1:10:07] a little bond because they give you a

[1:10:08] chocolate every week and they're not

[1:10:09] supposed to, but you say yes and, you

[1:10:11] know, and they ask you like, "Hey, you

[1:10:13] know, we don't have anything to read in

[1:10:14] here. Could you could you bring me a

[1:10:16] newspaper on your way in?" And you bring

[1:10:17] them a newspaper. And then they ask you

[1:10:18] for something

[1:10:20] really bad and and,

[1:10:23] you know, can you do this for me on the

[1:10:24] out or can you bring this in? And and

[1:10:26] you say, "No, I can't." They say, "Well,

[1:10:27] if if you don't, I'm going to tell

[1:10:29] people that you've been bringing me

[1:10:30] newspapers every week."

[1:10:31] >> Mm.

[1:10:31] >> And you're like, "Oh, this

[1:10:33] this was a scorpion. See?"

[1:10:35] >> [laughter]

[1:10:36] >> Um,

[1:10:38] uh, so that is a risk.

[1:10:41] Uh, but, you know, there's

[1:10:45] the what what what you get told when you

[1:10:48] when you when you start working in

[1:10:49] prison and you go to these

[1:10:51] very long, very stern talks at security

[1:10:54] to get access to your keys is, um,

[1:10:58] never trust a prisoner.

[1:10:59] >> Mm. That's the message cuz that's the

[1:11:02] safest message.

[1:11:03] For you anyway.

[1:11:05] But you don't get told what intelligent

[1:11:07] trust might be.

[1:11:08] You don't get told to discern. You don't

[1:11:10] get told how to use your judgment.

[1:11:14] And I think without that people are just

[1:11:18] they're just

[1:11:19] stuck. They're stuck in criminal

[1:11:21] identities.

[1:11:24] And you know

[1:11:26] it's no wonder people don't cooperate

[1:11:28] with the regime if if if that's where

[1:11:30] they are.

[1:11:31] >> Well, you have really created an inhuman

[1:11:33] world and then people will

[1:11:34] act in that way.

[1:11:35] >> Yeah, exactly.

[1:11:37] >> So let's start to move towards the

[1:11:39] conclusion and but but I have to finish

[1:11:41] on an up if we can

[1:11:43] find one. Um

[1:11:45] And yeah, I was very struck by the

[1:11:48] the story at the end of the book of I

[1:11:49] think it's Martin at least that's the

[1:11:51] name you've given him.

[1:11:52] Um

[1:11:53] because you know, one of the one of the

[1:11:55] great

[1:11:56] problems with prison is is reoffending,

[1:11:58] isn't it? You you basically in prison

[1:12:00] get to meet all the all the people that

[1:12:01] you could do with knowing if you want to

[1:12:03] reoffend.

[1:12:04] Um

[1:12:06] you know, in that way it's a disaster

[1:12:08] really. Um

[1:12:10] but that doesn't always happen. Let's

[1:12:11] say a little bit about reoffending and

[1:12:12] then perhaps let's finish with that

[1:12:14] story of Martin cuz it it seemed

[1:12:16] emblematic of a possibility of change.

[1:12:18] >> Yeah.

[1:12:19] >> Even in very dark circumstances.

[1:12:20] >> Well, there's that there's that line um

[1:12:23] prison is

[1:12:24] a very expensive way of making bad

[1:12:26] people worse.

[1:12:27] Does anyone know who said that cuz it's

[1:12:29] really interesting who said that?

[1:12:32] It's actually Winston Churchill.

[1:12:33] >> Oh, really? Wow.

[1:12:34] >> Um and Winston Churchill had spent time

[1:12:36] as a prisoner during the Boer War.

[1:12:39] And I think it meant during his second

[1:12:41] term he was a really passionate prison

[1:12:42] reformer actually.

[1:12:44] And

[1:12:45] in terms of a politician who's made an

[1:12:47] impact on prisons

[1:12:50] he's probably the

[1:12:52] in in in sort of recent history he's

[1:12:54] probably had the biggest impact.

[1:12:57] I mean we've had people who have tried

[1:12:58] James Tempson Rory Stewart recently but

[1:13:00] we've had

[1:13:02] 11 prison ministers in 12 years so it's

[1:13:05] not it's not a real job you know

[1:13:09] it's it's sort of a gap year thing for

[1:13:12] for politicians but but if a politician

[1:13:15] is is focused on that and wants to do

[1:13:17] something I think it also helps that

[1:13:19] Churchill had the profile that he had

[1:13:21] that you you couldn't just dismiss him

[1:13:22] as a wet liberal you know a bleeding

[1:13:24] heart it was like okay this is a this is

[1:13:26] a strong man telling us this and

[1:13:28] and

[1:13:29] maybe that should tell us something

[1:13:30] about

[1:13:32] how we do our politics today on this

[1:13:34] issue and tell me maybe we do need to

[1:13:37] bring people in

[1:13:39] who would be unlikely allies for for

[1:13:41] moving forward

[1:13:42] um

[1:13:43] but yeah I mean

[1:13:46] I

[1:13:47] I

[1:13:48] in terms of a hopeful story about about

[1:13:50] rehabilitation I do look at places like

[1:13:52] Grendon

[1:13:54] where they focus on the individual

[1:13:57] to change the individuals propensity

[1:14:00] for reoffending but a lot of reoffending

[1:14:03] is is not it's only partly about

[1:14:06] propensity it's means mostly about

[1:14:08] opportunity I think you know

[1:14:10] I was working with a guy a few years ago

[1:14:12] who who cleaned up in prison you know he

[1:14:15] he was using a lot of hard drugs on the

[1:14:17] outside he showed me his ID badge which

[1:14:19] had a photo of him on it taken the day

[1:14:22] he arrived in the prison you know he was

[1:14:24] very drawn very sallow looked very very

[1:14:28] unwell and you know he was showing me

[1:14:29] this and now I'm looking at him nine

[1:14:31] months later in real life and he's kind

[1:14:34] of round faced and he's been eating

[1:14:35] three meals a day and getting sleep and

[1:14:37] he's been staying off drugs which you

[1:14:39] know in Pentonville is actually quite an

[1:14:41] achievement because there's quite a lot

[1:14:43] of drugs available like if you want to

[1:14:46] get high you can't quite easily.

[1:14:49] Um

[1:14:51] And you know, I spent a few weeks with

[1:14:53] him and

[1:14:55] he was getting out on the Friday and

[1:14:56] it's like, "Where are you going?" He's

[1:14:57] like, "I don't know.

[1:14:59] Don't have any family.

[1:15:01] Uh don't have a place to live.

[1:15:03] >> Mhm.

[1:15:04] >> Uh don't have any money."

[1:15:06] >> Mhm.

[1:15:07] >> And it's like, "Well,

[1:15:09] that you know, that's why they're

[1:15:10] reoffending. It's It's because there's

[1:15:13] not

[1:15:14] uh a plan for after this."

[1:15:16] >> Yeah, exactly.

[1:15:17] >> Um but

[1:15:19] I

[1:15:20] I I think the big thing for me, if if

[1:15:23] you want to change prisons, is it you

[1:15:25] need to change society, which which

[1:15:27] sounds like just one of those

[1:15:28] platitudes, but um I went to Norway a

[1:15:31] few times and and went to prisons there

[1:15:34] and and the conditions are much better.

[1:15:36] They're much more dignified. Everyone

[1:15:37] has a single cell. It's more spacious.

[1:15:39] It's more clean. It's more humane. The

[1:15:41] prison officers

[1:15:44] they haven't just done 6 weeks training

[1:15:46] on minimum wage. You know, they've done

[1:15:47] 3 years that training at university.

[1:15:49] They're like social workers. It's It's a

[1:15:51] It's a proper institution, proper public

[1:15:54] institution. And

[1:15:56] and I think a a big thing that allows

[1:15:59] Norway to do that is is the general

[1:16:01] quality of life in the country is quite

[1:16:03] good.

[1:16:04] I think you know, they've got all of

[1:16:06] that oil money and and they've shared it

[1:16:07] out quite nicely.

[1:16:09] Buses are good. Schools are good.

[1:16:11] Housing is good.

[1:16:13] Minimum wage, living wage, you know,

[1:16:14] it's all good. I think here, if you try

[1:16:17] and improve conditions in prison, you'll

[1:16:19] have a lot of people in the working

[1:16:21] class community say, "How come these

[1:16:25] guys are getting this food? How come

[1:16:27] they're living in a room that's bigger

[1:16:29] than mine? How come they're getting paid

[1:16:31] for their work and they're doing it in

[1:16:33] prison when I'm only getting And it's

[1:16:34] resentment between

[1:16:37] working class people on the outside and

[1:16:39] working class people in prison.

[1:16:41] >> Of course, yeah.

[1:16:41] >> And and in a way you need to improve

[1:16:45] conditions outside for the public to

[1:16:49] to for prison reform to move into the

[1:16:51] Overton window for the public, I think.

[1:16:53] >> That's very interesting.

[1:16:55] So, let's finish with Martin

[1:16:56] as a story of someone that

[1:17:00] >> Yeah, you you've

[1:17:01] >> in very, very difficult conditions. I

[1:17:03] mean, I

[1:17:04] it does you know, talking to you

[1:17:06] tonight, you

[1:17:07] it's too glib so it's so easy to be glib

[1:17:10] about change. Um

[1:17:12] as as if we're in some sort of

[1:17:14] commercial, you know, where where we

[1:17:16] suddenly realize that we can be happy.

[1:17:19] Um we're

[1:17:20] human beings don't change very easily.

[1:17:22] Um

[1:17:23] I'm I'm struck by how

[1:17:26] you know, in my own life, how I have

[1:17:27] changed um to some extent to how much

[1:17:30] help I've needed to do that. And I'm

[1:17:33] I you know, I've not I've not got I've

[1:17:35] not come any from anything like the

[1:17:37] difficult conditions that so many people

[1:17:38] have.

[1:17:39] To actually have an individual actually

[1:17:41] change their life, even a health

[1:17:43] relatively healthy one. I was a sort of

[1:17:45] typical neurotic one, but you know, it's

[1:17:47] it's a it's it's a lot. You need a lot

[1:17:50] of support. You need a whole condition

[1:17:51] to to help those guys change and those

[1:17:54] women change and the women prob- you

[1:17:55] know, you you've got the almost

[1:17:56] insuperable issues. So, I don't want to

[1:17:58] be glib about that, but some people do,

[1:18:00] don't they?

[1:18:01] >> Some people do. And and Martin, one of

[1:18:03] the characters um

[1:18:04] one of the people in the book to was the

[1:18:06] end of the story

[1:18:07] uh

[1:18:08] was uh kind of came to prison and just

[1:18:11] grew this massive beard and long hair

[1:18:14] and really kind of let his um

[1:18:17] personal hygiene go and

[1:18:19] uh

[1:18:20] it was just a kind of hiding, really.

[1:18:22] Just don't don't look at me. Don't come

[1:18:23] near me, you know, [ __ ] Just kind of

[1:18:25] radiating the shame. And and he wouldn't

[1:18:27] go to the visits hall. His family would

[1:18:29] show up and he just wouldn't go to the

[1:18:31] visits hall.

[1:18:32] Um

[1:18:34] and then

[1:18:36] he did brave a conversation, I think,

[1:18:38] over the phone with his daughter.

[1:18:41] And he said, you know, "Can can you

[1:18:43] forgive me for what I did?" And I think

[1:18:46] she was very angry with him that he'd

[1:18:47] even asked.

[1:18:49] And this for him was not something he

[1:18:51] was expecting to hear. You know, he was

[1:18:52] just happy to sort of disappear.

[1:18:55] And she sort of wouldn't let him,

[1:18:57] basically.

[1:18:58] Uh

[1:18:59] and the next time I saw him, he'd kind

[1:19:01] of, you know, he's kind of washed and

[1:19:03] shaved. It was very moving, you know,

[1:19:04] just

[1:19:05] someone fresh smelling.

[1:19:08] Um

[1:19:09] And you know, that that is, I think, how

[1:19:12] it's it's an interesting thought for us

[1:19:14] as as philosophers, you know, how do you

[1:19:15] change someone's mind? How do you

[1:19:16] persuade someone? And

[1:19:18] often it's not premise premise

[1:19:20] conclusion.

[1:19:21] O- often it's human relationships. And

[1:19:24] it's like this

[1:19:26] this person who loves me has, you know,

[1:19:29] they've left or are staying with me

[1:19:31] despite what I've done. And

[1:19:33] And um

[1:19:36] it's it's a huge uh I'm not a

[1:19:38] criminologist, so I would I would be

[1:19:40] making up numbers if I if I claimed to

[1:19:42] know, but I but I do know it's it's

[1:19:43] really significant

[1:19:45] factor in reoffending, whether someone

[1:19:48] uh maintains family relationships on the

[1:19:51] outside or not.

[1:19:52] >> Of course, yeah.

[1:19:54] So, that's a great place to finish.

[1:19:55] Thank you very much, Harry.

[1:19:57] >> Thank you so much.

[1:19:59] >> [applause]

London Buddhist Centre
ArtistLondon Buddhist Centre

A Buddhist centre in Bethnal Green, East London, that teaches meditation and Buddhism in ways relevant to contemporary life, rooted in a living spiritual community.

View profileWebsite
Explore Topics
Prison-philosophyAndy-westMen-in-prisonSocratic-dialogueFamily-trauma

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

The book centres on Andy West's family and his work teaching philosophy to men in prison, and it opens with a scene in a lift where a stranger resembles his father. In the conversation he explains that his uncle, brother and father all feature as recurring figures, and that stories about prison were always part of his life. The talk moves between personal history and the classroom.
West says his father was violent, domineering and difficult, and that his father going to prison allowed him to stand up and breathe again. He admits his feelings are very mixed, since he knows prisons are deeply harmful and shameful. He believes his father's imprisonment may have helped him become the person he is.
His uncle openly told war stories about HM Brixton, while his brother, who went to prison about twelve times, was protective and kept the truth from him. On a visit to HMP Gloucester, his mother described the trip as visiting his brother 'at work'. West reads this kind of cover story as a message that the prison world is not for children.
West describes a classroom where questions about morality, the plurality of ideas and the value of suspending judgment come up regularly. He links the approach to Socrates, whose questioning of assumptions the men already understand in everyday life. The emphasis is on dialogue rather than lecturing.
In a television dramatisation of his childhood, the production used signals to let a child actor step in and out of scenes with an aggressive adult, so the experience would not be frightening. West says his real father 'did not tap in and tap out', meaning he was unregulated and could not switch off his anger. The detail illustrates how unpredictable his father's rage was.
West points to a deep cultural instinct that men should succeed, acquire wealth and win, which makes prison an easy thing to look away from. He suggests there is little cultural sympathy and few reference points for men who live differently. Philosophy teaching in prison is one way to offer those men a different framework for thinking.

Continue Reading

More from London Buddhist Centre

View All
Angulimala: The Killer Who Could Not Catch the Buddha
Inspire

Angulimala: The Killer Who Could Not Catch the Buddha

A London Buddhist Centre talk retells Angulimala, the forest killer whose necklace held 999 fingers, and the calm encounter that reversed hi…

8 min read
The Wisest Disciple: Sariputta's Path to Awakening
Inspire

The Wisest Disciple: Sariputta's Path to Awakening

Discover how a young Brahman named Upetisa encountered a wandering monk and embarked on a spiritual quest that led him to become the Buddha'…

8 min read
Choosing Compassion When the World Feels Dark
Inspire

Choosing Compassion When the World Feels Dark

Jack Kornfield explores how to maintain compassion and help others in difficult times, even when it risks personal harm or deception.…

8 min read
Gaea's Ebb: Harp and Bansuri Riding "Cabbage" Changes
Inspire

Gaea's Ebb: Harp and Bansuri Riding "Cabbage" Changes

Harp, bansuri, voice and guitar reshape Elden Kelly's "Gaea's Ebb" over the changes of Gregg Hill's "Cabbage." A live KGNU duo preview of a …

7 min read

Keep exploring

Continue your journey

More wisdom and gatherings from across the BrightStar directory.

More Articles

Browse the full library of teachings, interviews, and guides.

Back to all articles →

Teachers & Artists

Explore the lineages, musicians, and guides of the conscious world.

Explore artists →

Find an Event

Kirtan, retreats, sound baths, breathwork, festivals — happening soon.

Browse events →