Transcript
[0:00] Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,
[0:02] [music] where we revisit past episodes
[0:04] for the most potent and actionable
[0:06] science-based tools for mental health,
[0:09] physical health, and performance.
[0:12] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
[0:13] of neurobiology and opthalmology at
[0:16] Stanford School of Medicine. And now for
[0:18] my discussion with Dr. Gina Poe. Dr.
[0:20] Gino Poe, welcome.
[0:22] >> Thank you.
[0:23] >> I've really been looking forward to this
[0:24] conversation. I know that many people
[0:26] are going to be excited to learn about
[0:27] your work as it relates to sleep, as it
[0:30] relates to problem solving, creativity,
[0:32] and a number of other important topics.
[0:34] To start things off, I would love for
[0:36] you to educate us a bit about this thing
[0:38] that we are all familiar with and yet
[0:40] very few of us understand, which is
[0:42] sleep. Could you describe the various
[0:45] phases of sleep that exist, what
[0:47] distinguish them, and perhaps frame this
[0:50] within the context of what would a
[0:51] perfect night's sleep look like?
[0:53] >> All right. So sleep is really different
[0:55] from wakefulness and in fact can't be
[0:58] replaced by any state of wakefulness
[1:00] that we've been able to come up with so
[1:02] far. Our brain chemistry is completely
[1:04] different and in the different stages of
[1:06] sleep which there are is nonREM and REM
[1:09] are the two major states of sleep. Those
[1:11] two states are entirely different from
[1:13] one another too. And even within nonREM
[1:15] there are three states. Stage one, which
[1:17] is what you slip into when you first
[1:19] falling asleep. It's dozing. There's
[1:22] kind of an interesting rhythm that goes
[1:23] on in the brain. It's kind of a fast
[1:25] gamma rhythm. And then there's stage
[1:27] two, which is a really cool state. We
[1:29] sort of used to ignore sleep researchers
[1:32] because it was a transient state between
[1:34] wakefulness and the deep stage three
[1:36] slowwave sleep, which is the most
[1:38] impressively different, which is when
[1:40] big slow waves sweep through our brain.
[1:42] And now we've realized that it cleans
[1:44] our brain. Um, one of the things that
[1:45] those big slow waves do is cleans our
[1:47] brain and does other really important
[1:49] things to restore us from a day of
[1:52] wakefulness. And then REM sleep, which
[1:54] is the most popular because that's where
[1:55] we have the most active dreams. When you
[1:58] wake up someone out of REM sleep,
[2:00] they'll almost always report having
[2:01] dreamed something really bizarre. That's
[2:04] called REM sleep, rapid eye movement
[2:05] sleep. So those are the four states of
[2:08] sleep of human sleep. And we cycle
[2:10] through them every 90 minutes or so. And
[2:13] then we start over again. And we have
[2:15] about five of those per night for a
[2:17] perfect night's sleep. Four or five,
[2:19] something like that. So a perfect
[2:21] night's sleep is 7 and 1 half, 8 hours.
[2:23] And
[2:23] >> what about the sleep where we are
[2:25] lightly asleep
[2:27] >> and we might have a dream that has us
[2:30] somehow thinking about movement or that
[2:32] we jolt ourselves awake. That often
[2:33] happens early in the night, right?
[2:35] >> Yeah. That's the first stage, stage one
[2:38] and stage two of sleep. And stage two
[2:40] sleep is really cool because that has
[2:44] something called sleep spindles and K
[2:46] complexes. And what sleep spindles are
[2:48] are a little of activity that's 10 to 15
[2:51] hertz in frequency. It's a conversation
[2:55] between the phalamus and the cortex. The
[2:57] phalamus is the gateway to consciousness
[2:59] and the neoortex, you know, processes
[3:01] all our cognition. And if you wake up
[3:04] out of that state, you will often report
[3:06] a dream like a hallucination style
[3:08] dream. It won't be a long dream report
[3:11] like you have out of REM sleep, but it
[3:13] will be some hallucination state.
[3:14] >> Are they quite different than the
[3:16] patterns of sleep and dreaming that
[3:18] occur later in the night or toward
[3:20] morning?
[3:20] >> There is some evidence that the first 4
[3:23] hours of sleep are very important for
[3:26] memory processing. And in fact, if
[3:28] you've learned something new that day or
[3:32] have experienced a new sensory motor
[3:35] experience, then your early sleep dreams
[3:39] will incorporate that experience much
[3:41] more than the later sleep dreams. Later
[3:43] as that memory gets consolidated from
[3:46] the early structures which are the
[3:48] hippocampus deep in the temporal lobe to
[3:50] the cortex in a distributed fashion that
[3:54] memory seems to move from that
[3:56] hippocampus to the cortex and also the
[3:58] dreams that incorporate that memory also
[4:01] move later in the night. So
[4:03] >> there was a great study by Sedarto Rayo
[4:06] who studied the consolidation of
[4:09] memories from the hippocampus to the
[4:10] cortex in a rat across the period of a
[4:14] full day sleep because rats sleep in the
[4:17] daytime. And he found that each
[4:19] subsequent rim sleep period moved that
[4:22] memory from the hippocampus to the f
[4:26] first area that projects to it and then
[4:28] the second area and then the third area.
[4:30] and you can see the memory moving um
[4:32] through the throughout the sleep.
[4:34] >> There's a number of different hormones
[4:36] associated with the different stages of
[4:38] sleep. We know that melatonin is a
[4:40] hormone
[4:41] >> of night time
[4:42] >> of nighttime that makes us sleepy. What
[4:44] about growth hormone release? When does
[4:46] that occur during sleep?
[4:47] >> So growth hormone release happens all
[4:49] day long and all night long. But the
[4:51] deep slow wave sleep that you get, the
[4:53] very first sleep cycle is when you get a
[4:56] big bolus of growth hormone release. and
[4:59] in men and women equally. And if you
[5:02] miss that first deep slow wave sleep
[5:05] period, you also miss that big bolus of
[5:08] growth hormone release. And you might
[5:10] get ultimately across the day just as
[5:12] much overall growth hormone release. But
[5:15] andologists will tell you that big
[5:17] bololises do different things than a
[5:19] little bit eaked out over time. There's
[5:21] also a big push to synthesize proteins.
[5:25] So that's when the protein synthesis
[5:28] part that builds memories for example in
[5:30] our brain happens in that first cycle of
[5:34] sleep. So you don't want to miss that
[5:35] especially if you've learned something
[5:37] really big and needs needs more synaptic
[5:40] space to encode it.
[5:41] >> How would somebody miss that first 90
[5:43] minutes
[5:43] >> depriving themselves? Yeah. So, so let's
[5:46] say I normally go to sleep at 10:00 p.m.
[5:48] >> and then from 10 to 11:30 would be this
[5:51] first phase of sleep and that's when the
[5:53] growth hormone big bololis of growth
[5:54] hormone would be released. Does that
[5:56] mean that if I go to sleep instead at
[5:58] 11:30 or midnight that I miss that first
[6:00] phase of sleep? Why is it not the case
[6:02] that I get that first phase of sleep
[6:04] just simply starting later? Every cell
[6:06] in our body has a clock and all of those
[6:09] circadian clocks are synchronized and so
[6:12] our cells are ready to respond to that
[6:16] growth hormone release at a particular
[6:17] time and if we miss it and it's a time
[6:20] in relation to melatonin also. So if you
[6:23] miss it, yeah, you might get some growth
[6:25] hormone release, but it's occurring at a
[6:27] time when that your clock has already
[6:29] moved to the next phase. And so it's
[6:32] it's just a clock thing. So what this
[6:34] means is that we should have fairly
[6:35] consistent bedtimes in addition to
[6:37] fairly consistent wake times. Is that
[6:39] right?
[6:39] >> Exactly. And in fact, one of the best
[6:42] markers of good neurological health when
[6:44] we get older is consistent bedtimes.
[6:48] >> What other things inhibit growth hormone
[6:50] release or other components of this
[6:52] first stage of sleep? Are there things
[6:53] that I perhaps do in the preceding hours
[6:56] or the preceding day like ingest
[6:58] caffeine or alcohol that can make that
[7:00] first stage of sleep less effective even
[7:02] if I'm going to sleep at the same time?
[7:04] >> Alcohol definitely will do that because
[7:06] alcohol is a REM sleep suppressant and
[7:08] it even suppresses some of that stage
[7:10] two transition to REM with those sleep
[7:12] spindles. And those sleep spindles, we
[7:13] didn't talk about their function yet,
[7:15] but they're really important for moving
[7:17] memories to our cortex. It's a unique
[7:20] time when our hippocampus the sort of
[7:22] like the RAM of our brains writes it to
[7:25] a hard disk which is the cortex and
[7:28] there it's a unique time when they're
[7:29] connected. So if you don't want to miss
[7:32] that you don't want to miss REM sleep
[7:33] when is also a part of the consolidation
[7:35] process and alcohol before we go to
[7:38] sleep will do that until we've
[7:39] metabolized alcohol and put it out of
[7:42] our bodies it will affect our sleep
[7:45] badly. What about the second and third
[7:47] 90minute blocks of sleep? Is there
[7:49] anything that makes those um unique?
[7:52] What what is their signature? Besides
[7:53] the fact that they come second and third
[7:55] in the night,
[7:55] >> there's more and more REM sleep the
[7:57] later the night we get. There's also a
[8:00] change in hormones. You know, the growth
[8:02] hormone and melatonin levels are
[8:05] starting to decline, but other hormones
[8:07] are picking up. So, it is a really
[8:10] different stage that you also don't want
[8:12] to short change yourself on. And I think
[8:14] that's the stage many studies are
[8:16] showing that those are the times in
[8:18] sleep when the most creativity can
[8:20] happen. That's when our dreams can
[8:23] incorporate and put together old and new
[8:25] things together into a new way and our
[8:28] schema are built during that time. So
[8:31] that's when your computer of your brain
[8:34] is opening folders and comparing
[8:36] documents seeing if is there anything
[8:37] the same? Are these two documents look
[8:40] very much the same? that there's a
[8:41] little bit of difference and it can it
[8:44] can link those conceptually. So that
[8:46] that's probably one of the origins of
[8:48] creativity is finding things that are
[8:50] related maybe just linked a little bit
[8:53] and you can find that link and
[8:55] strengthen it if it you know makes your
[8:57] schema interesting and different.
[8:59] >> Many people including myself tend to
[9:02] wake up maybe once during the middle of
[9:04] the night to use the restroom. I've
[9:05] tried to drink less fluid before going
[9:07] to sleep. I've heard also the impulse to
[9:09] urinate is also dictated by how quickly
[9:11] you drink fluid, not just the total
[9:13] volume. So, I've switched to um sipping
[9:15] fluids more slowly for my last beverage
[9:16] of the day, which seems to help. Is
[9:18] there any known detriment to this middle
[9:22] of the night waking or should we
[9:23] consider it a normal feature for some
[9:25] people's sleep architecture?
[9:27] >> Yeah, I think we shouldn't worry about
[9:28] it. Actually, sleep is really incredibly
[9:31] well homeostatically regulated. And so
[9:34] really don't worry about how much you're
[9:36] sleeping as long as you're not
[9:37] intentionally depriving yourself of
[9:39] sleep by doing something really
[9:40] rewarding and exciting because even that
[9:42] is stressful to your body and deprivives
[9:44] you of a lot of the things we're talking
[9:46] about. It's absolutely normal to wake up
[9:48] at least once in the middle of the night
[9:50] to go to the bathroom. And as long as
[9:52] you can get back to sleep in a
[9:53] reasonable amount of time or even if it
[9:55] takes you an hour, don't worry about it.
[9:57] as long as you have a lifestyle that
[9:59] allows you to then make up that sleep
[10:02] either the next morning or the next
[10:04] night um or going to bed a little
[10:06] earlier.
[10:06] >> What is unique perhaps about the
[10:09] architecture of dreams and sleep in the
[10:11] let's say the last third of the night or
[10:13] the or the second half of the night,
[10:15] >> right? Yeah. In the second half of the
[10:16] night, we have longer REM sleep periods
[10:19] and those are considered the deepest
[10:22] sleep. Even though slowwave sleep, big
[10:24] slow wave is considered deep. It is
[10:26] deep.
[10:27] >> Yeah. They call slowwave sleep deep
[10:28] sleep and REM sleep rapid eye. But now
[10:30] you're telling me that REM sleep is
[10:31] actually the deeper sleep.
[10:33] >> The reason why you call slowwave sleep
[10:34] deep sleep is because it's difficult to
[10:37] arouse people out of that state. And
[10:39] when you do arouse them out of that
[10:40] state, they're most often confused and
[10:43] just want to go back into sleep and can
[10:45] go back pretty easily. If you arouse
[10:48] someone out of REM sleep, they're more
[10:49] likely to report something that was
[10:50] really kind of almost like wakefulness.
[10:52] It's it was so vivid. And maybe one of
[10:55] the reasons why REM sleep is deeper is
[10:57] especially in adults and older people
[10:59] that deep slowwave sleep goes away. So
[11:02] it's not as deep. It's not as big. The
[11:04] slow waves aren't as large which is
[11:06] probably problematic but we are not
[11:08] sure. And so then REM sleep becomes the
[11:11] deepest stage.
[11:13] >> We are paralyzed during REM sleep.
[11:15] Correct.
[11:15] >> Yes. normally paralyzed and that's
[11:17] really good because that's the time when
[11:20] we're actively dreaming storyline dreams
[11:22] and we could hurt ourselves. We're
[11:24] actually really cut off from the outside
[11:27] world in terms of responding to say this
[11:30] table or window or a door and so
[11:33] different from sleepwalking which is out
[11:35] of slow sleep. Out of slow sleep that
[11:37] sleepwalking is a mixture between sleep
[11:39] and wakefulness. You can cook a full
[11:42] meal, um, drive your car while you're in
[11:44] deep, slow sleep. It's scary because you
[11:47] never know what you're going to do. You
[11:48] don't have voluntary voluntary control
[11:50] over it. You have no conscious control
[11:52] over it, but you can actually safely
[11:54] navigate um some situations in
[11:57] sleepwalking and actually have a
[11:59] conversation. Although it may not make
[12:01] much sense when you're sleeptalking, in
[12:03] REM sleep, you're not processing the
[12:06] outside world. and instead um when
[12:09] you're acting out your dreams, you could
[12:11] be doing things like walking through a
[12:13] plate glass window or falling off of,
[12:16] you know, down a stairs um things like
[12:18] that. So, you really want your muscles
[12:21] to be inactivated during REM sleep,
[12:24] otherwise you will act out those dreams
[12:26] and really hurt yourself or your bed
[12:28] partner. So, as people start to approach
[12:31] morning or the time when they normally
[12:33] would wake up, I've heard that it's
[12:35] important to, if possible, complete one
[12:38] of these 90minute cycles prior to waking
[12:40] up. That is, if you set your alarm for
[12:43] halfway through one of these 90minute
[12:44] cycles that come late in the night of
[12:46] sleep that it can lead to um rather
[12:50] groggy patterns of waking.
[12:52] >> It's called sleep inertia. When we wake
[12:54] up out of the wrong state, I liken it to
[12:56] a washing machine cycle. This 90 minute
[12:59] cycle is like a washing machine cycle.
[13:00] And the first part is to add water,
[13:02] right? Then your clothes are soaking
[13:04] wet. You don't want to open the washing
[13:05] machine and try and function, put them
[13:08] on and wear them around while they're
[13:10] soaking wet and full of soap. So you
[13:12] have to wait until the cycle is through
[13:14] before you can well actually
[13:17] put it in the dryer, too. Um before you
[13:20] want to wear them. So you can function.
[13:22] It just takes a little while for those
[13:24] clothes, that brain to dry out so you
[13:27] can actually function well. But it's
[13:28] better to wait through the whole cycle
[13:30] is complete. So that's why you want to
[13:33] set that 90 90 minute alarm clock. And
[13:36] again, that's around 90 minutes because
[13:39] the first stage of sleep, the first
[13:41] cycle of sleep is actually a little
[13:43] longer, more like 105, 110 minutes. But
[13:47] then the second ones and third ones,
[13:48] they get sort of shorter and shorter as
[13:50] the night goes on. And in the last few
[13:52] cycles, you're just doing the N2 REM
[13:56] sleep cycle, which takes less time. And
[13:58] if you wake up out of REM sleep, there's
[13:59] usually no problem cognitively.
[14:01] >> Are you a fan of of sleep trackers?
[14:04] >> Yeah.
[14:05] >> Yeah. Do you use one?
[14:06] >> I have one on. I don't live my life by
[14:09] them because the best ones right now are
[14:11] about 70% effective at
[14:13] >> staging your sleep. So 70% it's okay.
[14:16] It's okay. But um take it with a grain
[14:19] of salt is what I'm saying. tell us a
[14:21] little bit more about the wash out that
[14:22] occurs in the brain during sleep and
[14:24] perhaps if there are any ways to ensure
[14:26] that it happens or to ensure that it
[14:28] doesn't happen and obviously we want
[14:30] this to happen.
[14:30] >> Yeah, we talked about the circadian
[14:32] clock and how certain things happen at
[14:34] certain times. Well, one of the things
[14:35] that happens when we're awake and
[14:37] talking to each other is that there's a
[14:40] lot of plasticity. there's something
[14:42] that I'm learning from you today and
[14:44] you're learning from me and that changes
[14:46] our synapses and it changes the way our
[14:49] proteins are going to be folded and
[14:52] changed during sleep. This process
[14:54] actually uses a lot of ATP, the power um
[14:58] structure, the fuel of the brain. It
[15:00] unfolds also proteins while we're doing
[15:03] this, while we're using them. And so
[15:05] during that first part of the night, uh,
[15:07] when we first fall asleep, in the first
[15:09] 20 minutes or so, we're building that
[15:11] adenosine back into ATP. And that's, uh,
[15:15] probably why power naps are called power
[15:17] naps because we're actually rebuilding
[15:19] the power. And then we're also cleaning
[15:23] out through the deep slow waves of slow
[15:25] wave sleep. We're cleaning out all those
[15:27] misfolded proteins, unfolded proteins,
[15:30] and other things that get broken down
[15:33] and, you know, need to be rebuilt when
[15:35] we're asleep because of its use during
[15:38] wakefulness. So I liken that to, you
[15:42] know, having a big party during
[15:43] wakefulness and you need all those
[15:45] partygoers to leave in order to do the
[15:47] cleanup. What happens when a neuron is
[15:49] firing is that it expands. The membrane
[15:52] expands a little bit. It becomes more
[15:54] translucent. That's how we know, one of
[15:56] the ways we know that neurons expand
[15:57] when they fire. And so every action
[16:00] potential, the membrane expands a little
[16:02] bit as sodium brings water into the
[16:05] cell. And then when they're silent, they
[16:07] contract. And so in during slow waves,
[16:09] the cool thing is that the reason why
[16:11] you can measure them is that all the
[16:13] neurons at the same time, not all of
[16:15] them, but a good portion of them are
[16:17] firing at the same time and silent at
[16:19] the same time. And so you think about
[16:21] that as contracting and expanding all at
[16:24] the same time. It's kind of like a
[16:26] billagege pump of the brain. So that can
[16:28] pump out. GIA are also really important
[16:30] for this in terms of cleaning up debris
[16:34] and transferring it to where it needs to
[16:36] go. So, um, so I think of it actually as
[16:39] a billagege pump cleaning out our brain.
[16:42] >> Here you're talking about literally an
[16:43] expansion and a contraction of the
[16:45] neurons in unison
[16:46] >> and pushing the fluid through
[16:49] >> cleaning out any misfolded proteins or
[16:51] debris that might occur
[16:52] >> on the basis of these metabolic
[16:54] pathways.
[16:55] >> And the consequence of that is to to
[16:58] what to leave the brain in a state of
[17:00] more pristine action for the next day.
[17:03] Is that right?
[17:04] >> Yeah. You think of it again like a party
[17:05] and if you don't clean up after that
[17:07] party and you try and hold another one
[17:09] the next day, it's going to get more
[17:10] clogged. You know, it's people have a
[17:12] harder time moving around and enjoying
[17:14] themselves. And um if that builds up day
[17:17] after day, you know, it's going to be
[17:19] cognition that would be the partygoers
[17:22] moving around becomes
[17:24] hard.
[17:25] >> And so this um build pump that you
[17:27] describe is associated with the big slow
[17:30] waves of slowwave sleep. So this is
[17:32] going to occur more or less in the first
[17:34] third of the night. Is that right?
[17:35] >> That's right.
[17:36] >> And is this similar to the case with
[17:38] growth hormone where if you go to sleep
[17:40] later than you would normally, you miss
[17:42] the wash out. You It's not You don't
[17:44] delay it. You miss You miss the wash
[17:46] out.
[17:46] >> That's right. That's right. So if you go
[17:48] to sleep at 1 or 2 in the morning, your
[17:51] sleep is still going to be dominated by
[17:52] N2 and REM sleep, not by slow wave
[17:55] sleep. So you need to you need to get
[17:58] that first bit of sleep. Would a caveat
[18:00] to that be if somebody normally goes to
[18:02] sleep at 1 or 2 a.m. and wakes up at
[18:04] 10:00 a.m. if that's their normal sleep
[18:06] cycle?
[18:07] >> Yeah, it should be okay. Somebody would
[18:09] want to do a sleep study with people who
[18:11] do that normally and see if also the
[18:13] melatonin release is later and the
[18:15] corticostone rise that's happens
[18:18] normally in the morning also happens
[18:20] later. So if everything shifted good,
[18:23] >> I'd love for you to tell us about this
[18:25] incredible structure in the brain which
[18:28] is the locus ceruius and hopefully tell
[18:30] us a little bit about its relationship
[18:32] to epinephrine aka adrenaline.
[18:35] >> Yeah. So um the locus curillus is filled
[18:37] with neurons that have in them
[18:39] norepinephrine which is the brain's
[18:42] version of epinephrine or adrenaline.
[18:43] It's also called noradrenaline. And what
[18:46] it does is it just like adrenaline in
[18:48] the rest of our bodies, it helps prime
[18:50] us to respond to our environment. So
[18:54] when locus rules neurons fire and fire
[18:57] in a burst, we can switch our attention
[18:59] and they will fire in a burst if for
[19:01] example a loud noise happens in the
[19:03] middle of your concentrating on
[19:05] something. It fires and it helps you
[19:07] switch your attention to that thing and
[19:08] then learn quickly from it. So it's
[19:10] really important in a stress response.
[19:12] It helps us do quick one trial learning.
[19:16] But just tonic levels are signature of
[19:18] wakefulness and alertness. So too much
[19:21] is panic with the locusillis activity. A
[19:25] burst is switching attention. And then
[19:28] tonic levels are sustained constant
[19:31] attention. And then when we go to sleep
[19:33] the locus slows and come goes from about
[19:37] on average um two hertz to about one
[19:39] hertz one cycle per second tonically and
[19:43] then when we go into REM sleep it's the
[19:44] only time when it shuts off completely
[19:46] and it appears that that complete
[19:50] silence is really really important for a
[19:52] number of things and the main thing that
[19:55] I think it's important for is the
[19:58] ability to erase and break down synapses
[20:01] that are no longer working for us. So
[20:02] they encode things that are false now or
[20:06] they are encoding things that we um
[20:09] learned in the novelty encoding pathway
[20:11] in of our of our brain that have now
[20:14] been consolidated to other pathways and
[20:17] so we need to now erase them from the
[20:18] novelty encoding pathway and that is
[20:21] really really important for being able
[20:23] to continue to learn things all of our
[20:25] lives. So like erasing that RAM um or
[20:28] that I don't know what do you call those
[20:29] discs that you stick into computers that
[20:31] >> oh thumb drives thumb drives erasing
[20:33] your thumb drive. So that thumb drive is
[20:35] what you carry around all day long and
[20:37] then during sleep you write that thumb
[20:40] drive to the cortex to the long-term
[20:41] memory structures and you need to
[20:43] refresh that thumb drive and that's what
[20:45] happens during REM sleep when the locus
[20:47] realis is off and so if we're not able
[20:49] to do that we fill up that RAM um really
[20:53] quickly or that thumb drive really
[20:55] quickly and we're not able to learn new
[20:57] things even memories that are years past
[21:00] if you're never able to downscale that
[21:02] novelty encoding structure and purge it
[21:05] from that traumatic memory, it will stay
[21:08] fresh and new and then become
[21:11] maladaptive.
[21:12] >> What approaches are you aware of that
[21:15] can um turn down the output of locus
[21:18] ceruius during these phases of sleep and
[21:21] allow late stages of sleep each night to
[21:24] have their maximum positive effect.
[21:26] >> Is there anything that I can do besides
[21:28] avoiding um serotonin or noradinergic
[21:31] compounds? Well, I would also avoid
[21:33] anything just prior to going to sleep
[21:35] that might excite those systems. So, a
[21:38] lot of novelty, stress inducing video
[21:41] games. Try and enter sleep with as much
[21:46] calm as you can. So, maybe deep
[21:48] breathing exercises. That's a beautiful
[21:51] way to calm your sympathetic fight
[21:53] orflight system is deep breathing. And
[21:56] if there's a way you can make your
[21:58] sympathetic nervous system calm down
[22:00] before you go to sleep, might free for
[22:02] you meditation or deep breathing
[22:04] exercises. Might be for some a warm bath
[22:06] or a comforting book. Nothing too
[22:09] exciting, but also nothing too boring
[22:11] perhaps. Just something right in the
[22:13] middle which makes you feel happy and
[22:16] calm is what you should do. And if you
[22:18] instead go to sleep while you're anxious
[22:21] or hyped up, then your sleep could
[22:24] become maladaptive.
[22:25] >> I'd love for you to share with us a
[22:27] little bit more about um these spindles
[22:29] that have come up a few times.
[22:30] >> The density of our sleep spindles, the
[22:32] number that we produce per minute is
[22:34] well correlated with our intelligence in
[22:36] the first place. And that no matter what
[22:38] your intelligence is and no matter what
[22:40] your sleep spindle density is, if you
[22:43] learn something during the day and
[22:45] increase your sleep spindle density,
[22:47] it's really almost perfectly correlated
[22:49] with our ability to consolidate that
[22:51] information and and incorporate it into
[22:53] the schema that we already have in our
[22:55] brain. So if you try and learn something
[22:58] new, even if your sleep spindle density
[22:59] at baseline is great, if you don't
[23:01] increase your sleep spindles that night,
[23:03] you're not going to, you know, use sleep
[23:06] to really incorporate it. One of the
[23:08] things we now know through some great
[23:09] studies by Julie Seep and Anita Luthie
[23:12] is that sleep spindles are accompanied
[23:15] by an incredible
[23:17] plasticity out in the distal dendrites,
[23:20] the listening branches of our neurons
[23:22] that listen to other cortical areas. So
[23:26] there are proximal dendrites in our
[23:27] neurons that listen to the external
[23:30] world and are conducted through the
[23:32] phalamus and then there are distal
[23:34] dendrites which listen to an internal
[23:36] kind of you know conversation that's h
[23:38] happening in our brains. It's kind of
[23:41] you know our internal state really and
[23:43] during sleep spindles that's when those
[23:45] distal dendrites are able to best learn
[23:49] from other cortical areas and from the
[23:51] hippocampus. It is during sleep spindles
[23:54] that the hippocampus and the cortex are
[23:55] best connected and when that plast
[23:58] incredible plasticity can happen. So
[24:00] when I talk about schema, that's a
[24:02] cortical cortical thing. There's big
[24:04] surges of calcium into those distal
[24:07] dendrites and where plasticity happens
[24:09] in just huge amounts during that sleep
[24:12] spindle stage of sleep which is N2
[24:14] stage. There's another excitatory event
[24:17] that comes all the way from the brain
[24:19] stem and projects everywhere in our
[24:21] cortex which is called PGO waves which
[24:24] we should generalize to P waves because
[24:26] they come from the ponds and go to the
[24:27] phalamus and then the cortex happens all
[24:30] over the brains and that is where
[24:32] glutamate which is a major excitatory
[24:34] neurotransmitter involved in learning
[24:36] and plasticity is being released in big
[24:38] amounts also in those distal dendrites.
[24:41] Pwaves and spindles work together to
[24:43] cause plasticity and sew our schema
[24:46] together which could be the origins for
[24:48] insight and creativity. Now when P waves
[24:50] were first discovered, it was thought to
[24:54] be random because this small area that
[24:56] generates P waves all over the brain
[24:58] projects all over the phalamus and
[25:00] causes P waves all over. And you don't
[25:02] measure P waves all over the brain at
[25:05] the same time. In fact, it's just seems
[25:06] sporadic and random. And Pwaves also
[25:09] happening even more during REM sleep,
[25:12] rapid eye movement sleep. So that's why
[25:14] people think that REM dreams are so
[25:17] random is because these P waves are
[25:19] random and they could generate dreams
[25:22] because they're an internal source of
[25:25] excitation that kind of replaces the
[25:28] outside world during our dream state.
[25:30] And so these Pwaves, if they are random,
[25:33] could be the underlying reason why
[25:35] creativity can happen there is because
[25:37] we're randomly activating, co-activating
[25:40] different things in our brain that we
[25:41] can then sew together. Um, but it might
[25:44] not be as random as we think. So that's
[25:46] a caveat there.
[25:47] >> So locus ceruius is suppressed. So we
[25:50] can't release norepinephrine. We can't
[25:52] act out our dreams. This almost starts
[25:54] to sound like a little bit of a built-in
[25:56] um while sleeping trauma therapy. Mh.
[26:00] >> So please if there's anything about
[26:02] locust ceruius and and dreams and that
[26:05] can help people basically extinguish
[26:08] traumas or traumatic features to to real
[26:10] life events and we definitely want to
[26:12] know about them.
[26:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think one of the
[26:15] things that people thought might help
[26:17] after a trauma like a school shooting or
[26:20] whatever you know car accident is to
[26:22] talk about it and in but in fact that
[26:25] ended up being counterproductive. And I
[26:27] think one of the reasons why it was
[26:28] counterproductive is because it didn't
[26:30] take you them back down. It brought them
[26:32] up and continued to reactivate the
[26:34] emotions of it, but then didn't
[26:37] emphasize the safety fact that it's over
[26:39] or help them work through how they might
[26:42] avoid it again in the future to calm the
[26:45] sympathetic nervous system down again
[26:47] before they went to sleep. And and in
[26:49] any none of these studies has sleep ever
[26:51] been considered, but to me that's the
[26:53] key part is bringing down your
[26:55] sympathetic nervous system before you go
[26:57] to sleep so that your sleep can be
[26:59] adaptive, your locus can shut off like
[27:01] it normally does or should do and then
[27:05] able to erase the novelty of it. The
[27:08] other thing that I just mentioned a
[27:10] minute ago was that the emotional system
[27:12] is highly activated in REM sleep. And
[27:14] that's definitely true. And that might
[27:16] seem counterproductive in terms of, you
[27:19] know, the nightmares and and how to help
[27:22] REM sleep be a therapeutic thing rather
[27:25] than reinforcing the emotionality of the
[27:27] trauma. And I think the key to that
[27:30] again is the absence of norepinephrine.
[27:32] So even though the emotional system is
[27:35] in high gear, without norepinephrine,
[27:38] you can actually divorce those highly
[27:42] activated emotions from the cognitive
[27:46] parts of the memory that you have just
[27:48] written out in that N2 stage of sleep
[27:50] when the sleep spindles are going. So
[27:53] you've just now consolidated the
[27:55] information that you'll need to survive
[27:57] and to you know to make that adaptive
[27:59] and now you need to divorce from that
[28:02] schema and from that semantic parts of
[28:05] memory the emotional part because
[28:07] whenever you remember something it's
[28:10] fine if you remember the being emotional
[28:13] at the time but you don't want to bring
[28:15] back and sew into that memory all of the
[28:17] same emotional systems. You don't want
[28:19] to bring back, you know, the heart rate
[28:21] changes and the sweating and and all of
[28:24] that. You want to be able to remember
[28:26] all the parts of it and even remember
[28:27] that you were traumatized and that you
[28:30] did cry and that you did have, you know,
[28:32] your heart was racing. But when you're
[28:34] talking about it years later, you don't
[28:37] want to have to relive all that.
[28:38] Otherwise, who who would ever want to
[28:40] recall a traumatic memory because you're
[28:42] basically putting yourself through the
[28:44] same trauma, which is what people with
[28:45] PTSD have. They don't want to recall
[28:48] this traumatic memory because it's
[28:50] reliving it like it's just happening
[28:52] again. So that's what we're thinking is
[28:54] that the emotional parts are not able to
[28:57] be divorced because the norphan system
[29:00] is not downscaled during REM sleep. And
[29:03] so that REM sleep serves to instead
[29:06] reinforce and in fact amplify the
[29:08] emotions because your your emotional
[29:11] system is up. Look, Serilla says, "Hi,
[29:14] re- sewing in every night the
[29:17] emotionality of those memories and with
[29:19] the memory itself."
[29:20] >> I must say, you've taught us a
[29:22] tremendous amount in um in a relatively
[29:25] short amount of time about the
[29:26] architecture of sleep, the different
[29:28] phases, such a wealth of information,
[29:30] and much of it that's actionable for
[29:32] people. So, I want to say thank you for
[29:34] taking the time to sit down and have
[29:36] this conversation that so many people
[29:38] are sure to benefit from. I know I speak
[29:40] for everybody when I say thank you so
[29:42] much. [music]
[29:42] >> Thank you so much.