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Inspire

Stress Resilience: How Chronic Stress Ages Cells and What to Do

AH
Andrew Huberman
Oct 8, 2026
11 min de lectura
Ver · 8

Pick up almost any conversation about stress and it arrives with a verdict attached: it is bad, it is killing us, it should be eliminated. Dr. Elissa Epel, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the University of California, San Francisco, spent a Huberman Lab Essentials conversation taking that verdict apart. Her argument is that stress is not one thing. It has good and bad forms, acute and chronic timescales, and a body-level signature that can run beneath conscious awareness. Chronic stress, she says, can accelerate cell aging, but the outcome varies enormously between people, and the variables that matter most are how the stress is held, how the body recovers, and whether a person can find meaning in what they cannot change. What follows is a field guide to that conversation: the distinctions, the mechanisms, and the practical tools she describes for ruminating less, reframing demands as challenges, and living well with stressors that will not go away.

The episode opens with a simple, almost mundane scene. Epel asks listeners to pause and check in with their own bodies, noticing where they are holding tension. Her point is that many of us are carrying a constant low-grade alarm without registering it. "We're so used to feeling daily stress from our urban and modern life that we're we don't notice it," she tells host Andrew Huberman. "We're just used to it." Clenched hands, a tight jaw, shoulders near the ears: these are the first clues. Keep that image in mind, because the rest of the conversation is about what happens when the clench becomes permanent.

Leer · 8 secciones

What counts as stress, and why the response matters more than the event?

Epel starts with a technical definition that she immediately humanizes. Stress, in the research sense, is what happens when demands feel greater than our resources. But she is quick to point out that life is made of challenges, and those challenges are not disappearing. "It really comes down to not the stressors of what's happens to us, but really how we respond, the stress response," she explains. The healthy version looks like this: something happens, the body mounts a response, and then it recovers. In her words, that is "beautiful" and "no harm done." The stress response is the reason humans are still alive; it is a survival system working as designed.

The trouble, in her account, is duration and loops. The response becomes a problem when it never shuts off, either because the threat is still running or because we keep replaying it. This is why the distinctions she draws matter. Stress has a feeling side, which people report, and a physiological side, which the body carries whether or not anyone mentions it. A person can insist they are fine while their nervous system is working overtime.

Why do our thoughts keep us stuck in threat mode?

Asked what works best for overthinking, the difficult conversation that loops for hours, Epel did not offer a single trick. She offered a framework of three categories, and she was clear that thoughts are the main engine of the problem. "Our thoughts are the most common form of stress," she said. Her explanation is that the mind is wired to move toward perceived threat and try to problem-solve it. If you accept that rumination is helpful, you can spend an entire day stuck in what she calls a threat or red mind state.

Her first category is top-down: awareness of how the mind works, plus the beliefs and mindsets we tell ourselves. Simply noticing that rumination is a habit, not a verdict, is the first step. Her second category is where she says the practical leverage often sits, and it reverses the usual assumption. "Not that the mind changes the body, but the body changes the mind." Bodily strategies work by metabolizing stress, burning it off through movement and physical practice, and that shifts activity in the amygdala, the brain's threat detector, toward a more experiential state anchored in the somatosensory cortex, which processes bodily sensation. Her third category is changing the scene. Getting away from office or city triggers, even to a single calming corner of the house, lets you install what she calls safety signals: comforting pets, pictures, smells, and music.

The practical implication is that you do not have to win an argument with your thoughts to calm down. You can change your posture, breathing, environment, and physical state, and let the mind follow.

Acute, moderate, and chronic stress: which one are you in right now?

Huberman pressed Epel to map the different timescales, and her answer is one of the most useful frameworks in the conversation. Most people think of stress as something they report. Epel argues that the body is just as important, and that measuring the nervous system's state, and how vigilant a person is, reveals stress that never reaches conscious report. "That's how stress gets under the skin," she says. A person can feel calm while staying sympathetically dominant, scanning for cues and not feeling safe, and so mobilizing far more energy than the situation requires.

That energy has a cost she describes in unusually concrete terms. "Stress is so expensive to the body," she says. The stress response draws on ATP, the energy currency made by the mitochondria. If the vigilant state runs all day, "we're just going to feel exhausted." She also notes that you do not need a large cortisol spike for this to happen. The nervous system can go up and down repeatedly without any single dramatic surge.

From there she sorts stress into three rough bands. Acute events can be moderate situations that take days or months to cope with, and the key question is whether you are coping in the moment or actually restoring. Daily restoration, in her framing, is non-negotiable. Chronic stress runs for years. Her example is caregiving: situations that cannot be changed because other people cannot be changed, and resources cannot be conjured. The question becomes how to live with a stressor that will not end on your schedule.

"You can actually be dealing with uncontrollable chronic stress in ways that it's not going to take that toll on your body."

Dr. Elissa Epel, Huberman Lab Essentials

Can chronic stress really make us age faster?

This is the claim that gives the episode its urgency. Epel studies how chronic stress accelerates cellular aging, and she is careful to describe variance rather than a single fate. "People are so different," she says. Among caregivers, some look as biologically young as, or younger than, control participants with no identifiable major stressor in their lives. Stress, in other words, is not a sentence imposed uniformly. The question for researchers, and for anyone reading this, is what separates the caregivers who age faster from those who do not.

Epel distinguishes optimal, typical, and accelerated aging in her own work, and she is explicit that some stress is not the enemy. "Having no stress means we're not really living," she says in effect, because life's gifts come bundled with challenge and risk. She cites research on retirees and the negative stereotypes society attaches to people who have stepped away from work, a pattern that can undermine the sense of contribution people need. The thread running through her answers is that stress is a multiplier. It amplifies whatever meaning, support, and recovery a person already has, or whatever isolation and rumination they lack.

She also raised the role of short, challenging bouts of stress in physical training, using high-intensity interval training as an example of stress that builds capacity when it is brief and recovered from. The principle is the same across domains: the dose, timing, and recovery determine whether a stressor strengthens or wears down.

Is a challenge mindset the switch that changes stress?

Resilience, in Epel's telling, is not the absence of stress. It is the ability to interpret stress in a way that keeps it from taxing the body. She draws a line between seeing a demand as a threat and seeing it as a challenge. Threat means you doubt your resources and expect harm. Challenge means you believe you have what it takes to meet the demand, even if the outcome is uncertain. She uses an analogy from the animal world, the lion that might or might not get dinner, to illustrate that the same external situation can be experienced as a survival emergency or as a problem to be engaged.

The mindset is not a pep talk. It changes what the body does. A threat appraisal tends to produce more vigilance and more physiological mobilization; a challenge appraisal allows the same effort without the same toll. Epel points to research by Wendy Mendes and others on this distinction, and to her own work that explores how people can reinterpret arousal as useful rather than dangerous. The practical move is to notice whether you are framing a demand as something that will harm you or something you can work through, and then deliberately choose the challenge frame when it is accurate.

Her reframing tool is to use the body's arousal as fuel. A racing heart before a hard conversation can be labeled as preparation rather than panic, which shifts the physiological response that follows.

What do you do when you cannot change the stressor at all?

For stressors that are truly beyond your control, Epel recommends radical acceptance rather than endless problem-solving. Chronic problem-solving on something unchangeable keeps the system mobilized and wishes the situation were different, which is itself a steady source of strain. Acceptance does not mean approval. It means you stop spending limited energy fighting facts you cannot alter, and you put that energy into living well inside them.

She calls one related practice "drop the rope": releasing your grip on an outcome you were pulling against. The image is a tug of war with a situation that is not going to move, and the relief comes from letting go of the end of the rope. She frames this as a way to loosen your hold on unwanted things, which often reduces the tension you carry even when the external circumstances remain the same.

Uncertainty is the hardest version of this. Epel acknowledges that not knowing what comes next is itself a stressor, and that the mind tends to stay vigilant and forward-looking when the future is unclear. For those moments, she describes using posture and slow breathing as a direct way to signal the body that it can stand down. Upright posture and slowed exhalations change the body's state, and that change can open enough room for a more deliberate response.

Does purpose change how stress lands?

The conversation ends where much of Epel's work seems to converge: meaning. She describes the human need to make sense of experience, find meaning in it, and locate a purpose that makes the effort worthwhile. Her suggestion is that narrative, the story you tell about your stress, is a lever you can actually pull. Journaling is one way to examine that story, to see whether it is organized around threat and helplessness or around agency and what you value.

"Make sense, find meaning, find purpose, fill in the blank about what..."

Dr. Elissa Epel, Huberman Lab Essentials

Epel's broader message is that stress resilience is built from several small, repeatable practices rather than one heroic fix. Notice the body. Name the three bins of tools and use the ones that fit the moment. Recover daily. Decide whether a demand is a threat or a challenge. Accept what cannot change, release the rope, and anchor the whole thing in a purpose that makes the hard parts worth carrying.

Where to go from here

If this conversation landed for you, the most useful next step is to run a small experiment on yourself. Each day this week, pause once and check your hands, jaw, and shoulders. Notice whether your thoughts are looping on a single problem. Try one body-based reset, such as slow exhalations or a short walk, and one environmental change, such as a corner of the room with a favorite object or piece of music. Then write a few lines about a stressor you cannot change, and ask what it would mean to accept it without giving up on the life around it.

For the full discussion, including Epel's examples from caregiving research and her detailed reasoning on mindset and biology, listen to the original Huberman Lab Essentials episode and its show notes. Treat her ideas as a framework to test in your own life, not as a checklist to complete.

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Transcript

[0:00] Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,

[0:02] where we revisit past episodes for the

[0:05] most potent and actionable science-based

[0:07] tools for mental health, physical

[0:09] health, and performance.

[0:12] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

[0:14] of neurobiology and opthalmology at

[0:16] Stamford School of Medicine. And now for

[0:18] my discussion with Dr. Alyssa Epel. Dr.

[0:21] Epel, welcome.

[0:22] >> Thank you.

[0:23] >> So great to have you here. I'd love to

[0:24] just kick off by you explaining a little

[0:27] bit about the different forms of stress.

[0:29] You know, we hear stress, stress is bad,

[0:31] stress can kill us. No one likes to feel

[0:32] stressed, etc. But as you and I both

[0:35] know, that's not the entire picture. So,

[0:38] love for you to just educate us a bit on

[0:40] what stress is and what it isn't, where

[0:42] it can be problematic, and where perhaps

[0:44] it can even be beneficial. Mhm.

[0:46] >> So, as a stress scientist, it is a word

[0:52] I use a lot, but it has to be broken

[0:54] down because it has so many different

[0:57] kind of dimensions and meanings. So,

[0:59] there's good and bad stress, there's

[1:01] acute and chronic stress, and you know,

[1:04] technically it just means anytime we

[1:06] feel overwhelmed that we feel like the

[1:08] demands are too much for our resources.

[1:12] So that's kind of a a very technical way

[1:14] to put it, but really so much of life is

[1:16] about meeting challenges and we're never

[1:21] going to get rid of different stressful

[1:23] situations in life. If anything, they

[1:25] are increasing. And so it really comes

[1:27] down to not the stressors of what's

[1:30] happens to us, but really how we

[1:33] respond, the stress response. So when

[1:35] something happens, we mount a stress

[1:38] response and we recover. And that's

[1:40] beautiful. no harm done. We need that.

[1:43] That's why we're here still alive is

[1:45] that survival response. It's it's a

[1:48] problem these days of just we keep it

[1:50] alive in our head. We keep it alive with

[1:52] our thoughts. Our thoughts are the most

[1:54] common form of stress.

[1:55] >> What to your knowledge is the best way

[1:58] or what are the best ways for us to

[2:01] manage overthinking and ruminating on

[2:04] stressful topics? Should we work with

[2:06] them in the sense that we try and

[2:09] rationalize or understand the basis of

[2:12] the stress or should we try and divert

[2:14] our thinking away?

[2:16] >> I like to bin it in three um three

[2:18] categories. So one is we well I'll just

[2:22] say first of all we have to have some

[2:25] awareness of how our mind works or we're

[2:28] just like you know a subject to thinking

[2:31] our thoughts are real thinking that it's

[2:33] helpful to keep ruminating and problem

[2:36] solving because that's our tendency is

[2:38] to go toward whatever we think there's

[2:40] threat or risk and to problem solve

[2:43] that. You could just be stuck there all

[2:44] day in this kind of threat mode or red

[2:47] mind state. And that's just a shame. We

[2:49] don't need to turn on that stress

[2:52] response all the time. But that's where

[2:55] we are as a society. We're so used to

[2:57] feeling daily stress from our urban and

[3:00] modern life that we're we don't notice

[3:02] it. We're just used to it. And so we're

[3:04] going through the day with kind of like

[3:06] clenched hands. And just, you know, for

[3:08] listeners, just even just taking a check

[3:10] in now and noticing

[3:13] how you might be holding stress in your

[3:15] body. That's a huge clue. It's a huge

[3:17] place where we accumulate tension. So,

[3:20] we might not be aware that we're

[3:21] stressed, but we're clenching our hands.

[3:23] So um going back to this notion of

[3:25] overthinking, what are the tools that um

[3:28] are most efficient for dealing with

[3:31] overthinking or ruminating uh when

[3:35] people just sort can't seem to let go of

[3:37] the thing that's the stress or thinking

[3:39] about not the stress in their body but

[3:42] the thing that caused the stress the

[3:44] difficult conversation the thing that

[3:45] irked them. I wish I had one answer, but

[3:48] I'm going to say lots of strategies

[3:50] tackle that. And so in those three bins,

[3:52] one are top- down strategies of

[3:55] awareness and things that we can say to

[3:57] ourselves since our beliefs and mindsets

[4:00] can really help us release stress, view

[4:03] stress more positively. The second

[4:05] bucket is not that the mind changes the

[4:07] body, but the body changes the mind. And

[4:09] those are the set of strategies that you

[4:11] tend to use the most, right? We're we're

[4:13] working stress out of the body. We're

[4:14] metabolizing it. we're burning it up and

[4:17] we get relief. It changes our amygdala

[4:20] activity and moves us to more an

[4:22] experiential state where we're more in

[4:24] our smata sensory cortex. And then the

[4:27] third uh bucket is change the scene just

[4:30] getting away from all the stress

[4:33] triggers that we have in our office or

[4:36] in the city and being in an environment

[4:39] that we find calming. It might even be

[4:42] just be a corner of the house, but

[4:43] implanting what I call safety signals,

[4:46] having things like comforting pets,

[4:49] pictures,

[4:50] smells, music.

[4:52] >> When we talk about stress, it's clear

[4:54] that there's short-term, medium-term,

[4:56] long-term stress. You've studied all

[4:57] these different forms of stress. If you

[4:59] would be so kind as to just you give us

[5:01] an overview of the different forms of

[5:04] stress, how we can learn to recognize

[5:06] those, pepper our minds with knowledge

[5:09] about stress in all its um beautiful and

[5:12] um not so beautiful forms.

[5:14] >> When we think about stress, we usually

[5:16] think feeling stress, you know,

[5:18] reporting stress and that's important.

[5:19] What our body is doing is also important

[5:22] and it's not always related to our mind.

[5:24] So measuring levels of the nervous

[5:26] system and how vigilant we are is

[5:29] another way that we can understand

[5:30] stress. And that's particularly

[5:32] important and interesting because that's

[5:34] how stress gets under the skin. And we

[5:36] might not be aware. We might not report

[5:38] stress, but we're still holding tension

[5:40] and being much more sympathetically

[5:43] dominated. Meaning that our body is

[5:46] vigilant and scanning for cues and we

[5:48] don't feel safe. And so we're mobilizing

[5:51] a lot more energy than we need to. And

[5:55] stress is so expensive to the body. The

[5:58] stress response uses a tremendous amount

[6:02] of energy ATP that's made by our

[6:04] mitochondria. And if we have that kind

[6:07] of vigilant stress response on all day,

[6:09] we're just going to feel exhausted. And

[6:11] we don't necessarily get so threatened

[6:13] that we release a lot of cortisol, but

[6:15] our nervous system is going up and down

[6:16] all day. Then there's kind of moderate

[6:18] stressful events that maybe take days or

[6:22] months to cope with. And what's

[6:24] important there is that noticing like

[6:26] right now am I really coping acutely

[6:29] with something or can I restore? So that

[6:32] kind of daily restoration is very

[6:33] important. And then there are

[6:35] chronically stressful situations that go

[6:37] on for years. Many of us, not all of us,

[6:40] but many of us have those in our life.

[6:42] These are situations, I'll just use

[6:45] caregiving as an example, that we can't

[6:48] change. We We can't change other people.

[6:51] We can't change certain situations or

[6:53] resources. And we can be thinking about

[6:57] them chronically problem solving, trying

[7:00] to wish things were different, or we can

[7:03] use acceptance, radical acceptance

[7:06] strategies, and other strategies to live

[7:08] well with them. That's a really

[7:10] important strategy for people who feel

[7:14] like their life is going to be stressful

[7:16] forever because of X or Y. You can

[7:20] actually be dealing with uncontrollable

[7:23] chronic stress in ways that it's not

[7:26] going to take that toll on your body. I

[7:27] mean, I study chronic stress and how it

[7:29] accelerates cell aging and I can tell

[7:30] you there's so much variance between

[7:33] people. People are so different. So

[7:34] among caregivers, some of them look as

[7:36] biologically young or younger than our

[7:40] controls, people with no identifiable

[7:42] big tough situation in their life.

[7:44] >> In one of your papers, you distinguish

[7:47] between optimal aging, typical aging and

[7:51] accelerated aging. How does one measure

[7:54] optimal versus accelerated aging? And

[7:57] why would it be that some stress is

[7:59] better than no stress when it comes to

[8:02] aging? Uh ideally

[8:04] >> having no stress means we're not really

[8:06] living like we're not engaging in the

[8:10] gifts of life which are inevitably have

[8:12] some challenge and risk. And let me give

[8:15] you an example. One study took elderly

[8:18] people who retired and society kind of

[8:21] labels them as you're kind of done with

[8:23] your meaningful work in life and you are

[8:27] pretty much not able to contribute to

[8:28] society. I mean, there's so many

[8:29] negative stereotypes that people then

[8:31] kind of embody and then live. Um, and

[8:33] this program brought them to work in

[8:36] schools and tutor young at risk

[8:39] students. And what happened to them is

[8:42] they went from feeling maybe safe and

[8:45] understressed to feeling

[8:48] challenged but generative. They they

[8:51] were feeling more purpose. They were

[8:54] feeling like they were growing and they

[8:56] were feeling like their day had more

[8:58] meaning. They had these caring

[9:01] relationships with the students. And in

[9:04] the study they they took images of the

[9:07] hippocampus and those who engaged in the

[9:10] program particularly the men actually

[9:12] had growth of their hippocampus during

[9:14] this program. So at any stage in life we

[9:18] can be growing and challenging ourselves

[9:20] even in our much later years and growing

[9:23] our brain and you know more than anyone

[9:25] like what does that hypocample growth

[9:27] mean for their well-being and their

[9:29] cognitive function. I almost have to

[9:31] wonder if it's like exercise where you

[9:34] know so many people I think now

[9:36] everybody hopefully understands that

[9:38] exercise is going to lower blood

[9:40] pressure, reduce resting heart rate,

[9:42] improve muscularkeeletal function and

[9:44] bone density, all that stuff.

[9:46] >> But that if you took a snapshot of the

[9:47] bodily response during exercise, blood

[9:50] pressure is way, way up, heart rate is

[9:51] way, way up. Stress hormones are way up.

[9:54] Cortisol is through the roof during a

[9:55] hard workout and immediately afterwards.

[9:57] And yet that sets in motion a series of

[9:59] adaptations that brings you to a better

[10:01] place most of the time. Is there any

[10:03] evidence that

[10:05] short bouts of stress, provided that

[10:07] they're managed well, meaning that we

[10:09] don't spend the next 24 or 48 hours

[10:12] ruminating on the stressor, but that

[10:13] we're able to move through the stressor

[10:15] and resolve it in some way, that that's

[10:17] actually beneficial for us because of

[10:19] the mobilization of energy stores and

[10:21] maybe even changing our threshold for

[10:23] reacting to stressors in the future. We

[10:25] know as you said that physical stressors

[10:28] when they're short and repeated like

[10:30] highintensity interval training they are

[10:33] promoting not just aerobic fitness but

[10:36] stress fitness people feel less

[10:38] rumination less depression less anxiety

[10:41] so they're kind of tuning up the nervous

[10:43] system what about psychological

[10:45] stressors we know two things so one is I

[10:47] do think that there is a level of

[10:50] engagement with moderate stressors that

[10:53] when we are used to them, we get fit and

[10:57] our stress resilience builds, meaning

[10:58] we're less threatened by them. Two

[11:01] people can approach the exact same

[11:02] stressor and one person is having a

[11:06] pretty um overreactive stress response

[11:09] where they basically are feeling their

[11:11] survival is threatened. So, it's high

[11:13] cortisol, high vasoc constriction and uh

[11:16] blood pressure goes up equally in both.

[11:18] But the person who's feeling super

[11:20] threatened either their survival or

[11:22] their social survival, their ego, their

[11:25] blood pressure went up because of the

[11:27] vasoc constriction. The other person who

[11:29] is viewing the same stressor as I can do

[11:32] this. This is a great challenge and

[11:34] opportunity. I have what it takes. Those

[11:37] types of thoughts generate a different

[11:39] hemodynamic response which is actually

[11:42] more cardiac output. So blood pressure

[11:44] is going up but in this healthier way

[11:46] more oxygenation to the brain better

[11:48] problem solving they're able to maintain

[11:50] this positive outlook. So we've measured

[11:52] the threat challenge response in many

[11:54] lab studies and we know lots of things.

[11:56] So if you're having more of the

[11:58] challenge response at the end of it

[12:00] you're less inflamed. So just in the lab

[12:02] within an hour or two we see that

[12:04] they're they didn't trigger all that

[12:06] pro-inflammatory response and their

[12:08] tieumirs tend to be longer which is a

[12:10] measure we can talk more about but

[12:12] basically it looks like they have a

[12:15] slower

[12:17] speed of aging. So we could call this

[12:19] kind of a to be really simplistic two

[12:21] types of

[12:23] psychological stress response. Feeling

[12:24] threatened like you're going to fail,

[12:27] you're embarrassed. That social pain

[12:29] response we know well that feels

[12:30] terrible. Um but that also that huge

[12:33] stress response when we, you know, we

[12:35] feel it in our stomach, our heart is

[12:37] pounding. It's just an overexaggerated

[12:40] response. that response biologically is

[12:43] different and the thoughts that go with

[12:45] it are different and we recover a lot

[12:47] slower. And then there's the challenge

[12:49] response which it's more of that kind of

[12:51] activated excited response. And the

[12:55] beauty is that there are lots of studies

[12:57] out there done by emotions and social

[13:00] psychologists that tilt people toward

[13:02] the challenge response. We can actually

[13:04] promote that challenge response. And so

[13:06] when you asked about like is it good to

[13:09] have a repeated stress response? Yes, if

[13:12] it's if it's manageable, right? Then

[13:14] we're kind of building the muscle of

[13:15] stress resilience.

[13:16] >> What are the sorts of things that people

[13:18] I can do in order including me I should

[13:21] say um can do in order to wage that

[13:25] challenge response? Is this purely based

[13:28] on mindset? Like instead of saying why

[13:30] me, why this? Why now? I can't believe

[13:33] this is happening. Is it a mental pivot

[13:36] to okay this is a great opportunity for

[13:38] growth I don't know how I'm gonna manage

[13:40] this but I'll manage this you want to

[13:42] stop me you got to kill me type of type

[13:44] of mindset is that the switch that then

[13:47] the body follows

[13:48] >> the whole trick here is that people need

[13:50] to find the the strength statements the

[13:53] stress shields I call them that fit them

[13:56] that feels right and that they believe

[13:58] be the lion instead of the gazelle so

[14:00] the lion and gazelle are both you know

[14:02] high blood pressure high stress And the

[14:04] lion's chasing the gazelle, but the g

[14:06] the gazelle is having this total threat

[14:08] basil constriction response cuz she

[14:10] might die. The lion might get dinner,

[14:13] right? So, it's needing to mount the

[14:14] stress response because it's so excited

[14:17] to get the tasty dinner for, you know,

[14:20] the next few days. And so, the lion is

[14:21] having that challenge response. And so,

[14:24] we can remind ourselves, be the lion.

[14:26] It's not that we're always lion or

[14:28] gazelle. We get to shape that. There's

[14:30] all these strategies and you got to use

[14:32] what works for you. telling yourself, I

[14:34] got this. I can do it. I can get through

[14:36] it. I have what it takes. Those are all

[14:38] good shields. And another set is, you

[14:42] know, we some of us feel really stressed

[14:44] out by stress. Like once we get feel our

[14:46] heart racing, that leads to, oh no, you

[14:49] know, this is bad for me. And so rather

[14:53] than getting stressed by stress, we

[14:55] actually want to remind ourselves that

[14:57] this stress response is empowering. This

[15:00] is going to help me cope. My body is

[15:02] excited. My body is doing just what it

[15:05] should right now. So that reframing in

[15:09] studies by Wendy Mendes and others, my

[15:11] my colleagues who do this reappraisal

[15:13] research, they have basically trained

[15:15] people to view stress as positive during

[15:18] the stressful situations. In the lab,

[15:20] people do better. They perform better.

[15:23] They feel more positive emotion. They

[15:25] problem solve better. They recover more

[15:27] quickly. So pretty powerful stuff. I'd

[15:30] love to talk a little bit about some of

[15:32] the other health metrics that you've

[15:33] explored. There's a graph in one of your

[15:35] papers. It's the Peicard paper 2018. It

[15:38] essentially describes the relationship

[15:39] between mitochondrial health and mood in

[15:42] the context of people who have different

[15:45] type of mood tendencies. If you would be

[15:47] willing to just kind of describe the top

[15:49] contour of that study and some of the

[15:51] the points that it that you find most

[15:52] interesting.

[15:53] >> Yeah, we've we've done these in-depth

[15:55] studies where we are looking at people

[15:57] under a lot of daily demand. caregivers

[16:00] and then we look under look at you know

[16:02] normal people parents of neurotypical

[16:04] children who still have a lot of stress

[16:06] but we then ask you know do people under

[16:08] chronic stress have accelerated aging so

[16:10] we look at tieumirs epigenetics

[16:12] mitochondrial health and then what

[16:14] explains those who look really good who

[16:16] look resilient and don't look vulnerable

[16:19] and so then we can find out like what's

[16:21] the magic sauce in the day that protects

[16:23] them from chronic stress so Martin Bear

[16:26] my colleague who has been obsessed with

[16:29] mitochondrial health as a pathway to

[16:32] understanding both stress and really

[16:34] health and disease. He has developed a

[16:37] way to measure mitochondrial health in

[16:40] humans. So we can measure a bunch of

[16:42] enzymes and then we can adjust it for

[16:43] how many mitochondria we have. So we

[16:45] have this really nice index we can get

[16:47] from the blood. And in this study of

[16:50] young mothers who were who had either

[16:53] typical children or children with

[16:54] autism, we found that the caregiving

[16:59] moms had significantly lower or dampened

[17:03] mitochondrial activity. What that means

[17:06] is they can't produce as much energy. So

[17:10] if they're feeling more exhausted from

[17:12] the chronic stress, we know why. It was

[17:15] quite dramatic. Martin commented, "Some

[17:17] of those low levels even looked like

[17:19] people with some genetic reasons to have

[17:21] low mitochondrial activity." But here's

[17:24] the beauty of that study. We then get to

[17:26] look within their day at their mood and

[17:29] ask, "Well, what about the caregivers

[17:31] who have really great mitochondrial

[17:34] enzymes and and thus should be making a

[17:37] lot of ATP?" They had more positive

[17:40] emotions both waking up and in the

[17:42] evening, but especially in the evening.

[17:44] And what's so interesting that is all of

[17:47] these daily diary studies of stress and

[17:50] mood, one of the things we know that

[17:52] matters for long-term health is how

[17:55] positive you feel at night. So,

[17:58] especially on a stressful day. So, at

[17:59] the end of a stressful day, can you

[18:01] muster some feelings of content, ease,

[18:05] confidence, joy? Do you have any of that

[18:07] or has it just wiped out your

[18:09] positivity? And so for people who feel

[18:12] either lower negative or higher

[18:14] positive, they tend to have better

[18:17] health trajectories. So like a decade

[18:19] later, less depression, less heart

[18:21] disease, less early death. So that's why

[18:23] we care so much about daily moods. In

[18:25] our study, it looked like the daily mood

[18:27] was really quite correlated with the

[18:30] mitochondria levels that same day. Then

[18:32] we measured mood like, you know, days

[18:34] away from that and it was much less

[18:36] correlated. It's just our first study on

[18:37] this, but it really leads us to think

[18:39] that our mitochondria are sensitive to

[18:42] our thoughts and our feelings probably

[18:45] on a daily basis. So for those of us

[18:48] that find ourselves in a in a state of

[18:51] chronic stress, chronic stress of the

[18:53] sort that really the stressor the fact

[18:56] that a very close

[18:59] >> relative or family member is dealing

[19:01] with a lifelong condition or the fact

[19:05] that um we can't extract ourselves from

[19:08] a situation that we are not in full

[19:10] agency to remove the stressor. radical

[19:13] acceptance of that fact then can ratchet

[19:16] into an understanding of okay and yet

[19:19] there are tools that we can use to not

[19:21] just offset the negative health effects

[19:23] but maybe even thrive in the context of

[19:25] this essentially turning what initially

[19:27] was thought of as a curse into a

[19:28] blessing at least biologically speaking

[19:31] >> what do we know about best practices for

[19:32] mitigating these essentially

[19:35] non-negotiable stressors

[19:37] >> I think it is partly how we view life

[19:40] and our our purpose in our own life.

[19:44] What's this game that we know we were

[19:46] born into? And even just the idea that

[19:49] bad things shouldn't happen sets us up

[19:51] for vulnerability, to feel victimized,

[19:53] to feel like we can't accept bad things

[19:56] that have happened. So just stepping

[19:59] back and asking everyone listening, do

[20:02] you have a situation in your life that

[20:05] is unwanted and you can't change? How

[20:09] much time do you spend thinking about

[20:12] this? The more we spend time trying to

[20:15] problem solve or worry or just wishing

[20:19] things were different,

[20:21] the more we are creating a chronic

[20:25] stress state. And so just even taking

[20:29] that first kind of step back to get

[20:32] perspective on what are the situations

[20:34] in my life that stress me out and and

[20:37] which of these can I circle those that I

[20:39] can't change. Just that recognition of

[20:42] this isn't going to go away is

[20:44] incredibly

[20:46] powerful because we can, as I say, put

[20:51] the baggage down and give ourselves some

[20:53] relief and some freedom from the big

[20:56] space it holds in our mind and in our

[20:58] body. And this is not a one-time thing.

[21:01] It's a practice. Radical acceptance is

[21:03] something we practice over and over to

[21:05] help us loosen our grip on unwanted

[21:09] situations, on letting them control our

[21:12] well-being and taking up, you know, this

[21:15] mental real estate that's so precious,

[21:17] our attention. I'm an expert at this

[21:20] because I have I'm a caregiver and I

[21:24] often need to refocus from wishing

[21:28] things were different, trying to solve

[21:29] things to radical acceptance of this is

[21:32] how things are right now. And by just

[21:37] reminding ourselves that there is

[21:40] freedom within that, that there are

[21:41] things that you can do, you can actually

[21:45] live better, live well with these

[21:47] situations. So, let me tell you what we

[21:49] found from our caregivers. We measure

[21:51] where their mind is at night. We ping

[21:53] them and we say, "In the last five

[21:55] minutes, how much have you been wishing

[21:56] things were different? How much have you

[21:59] been engaged and focused in what you're

[22:01] doing right right before we pinged you?"

[22:04] And just those two questions tell us so

[22:08] much about that person's well-being. And

[22:11] actually, yes, the caregivers are doing

[22:14] more of

[22:16] what I'll call suffering, wishing things

[22:18] were different, not being present for

[22:19] their lives. But regardless of that

[22:22] difference, whether people are a

[22:24] caregiver or not, this negative minding

[22:26] state of not being present for your

[22:30] evening, wishing things were different

[22:32] instead of being engaged, predicts

[22:35] more unhappiness.

[22:37] It predicts

[22:39] shorter tails.

[22:41] So it it suggests that it's a pattern

[22:44] that has gone on for days, months, and

[22:47] years that has been wearing on them. And

[22:50] so some of the metaphors that I think

[22:52] are helpful for this are think of this

[22:55] unwanted situation and think of how

[22:56] you're you're pulling a rope that's

[22:59] attached to a brick wall. And you're

[23:02] doing that because you care. You want

[23:05] things to be better for yourself or this

[23:07] person or a group. I mean, it's it's

[23:09] something you're passionate about. And

[23:12] so, you're pulling and pulling and every

[23:13] day you're pulling and and you can't

[23:15] move that brick wall. So, the only thing

[23:17] that's happening is that you're chafing

[23:19] your hands. What if you just drop the

[23:22] rope?

[23:24] I say that to myself. Drop the rope.

[23:27] When I start get, you know, getting

[23:29] going on trying to solve unsolvable

[23:31] problems, the brick wall is still there.

[23:33] It's never going to move. Yet, my hands

[23:35] are free and so I can be freed up to

[23:39] live in the ways that I do have control

[23:42] over.

[23:43] >> As you describe the this pulling on a

[23:45] brick wall, I find it a very compelling

[23:47] image. Um, and one that uh makes total

[23:51] sense to try and drop the rope as you

[23:54] describe it because of the incredibly

[23:56] high energetic demand that pulling on

[23:58] that rope represents. As you said, it's

[23:59] sort of a way of diverting resources

[24:02] towards something that has no

[24:05] conclusion,

[24:06] >> right? And in dropping the rope, you can

[24:08] divert those resources towards other

[24:10] things.

[24:11] >> We

[24:13] really, really, really love control. And

[24:16] we want to control the future,

[24:19] not just because it makes us feel

[24:21] powerful and happy, but because then we

[24:24] can relax. If we know what's going to

[24:27] happen next, if it's predictable,

[24:30] we're that much happier. We're not

[24:33] vigilant and looking ahead and being

[24:35] prepared for what might happen. Being

[24:38] comfortable with uncertainty is a

[24:40] beautiful but rare resilience factor.

[24:43] People who tolerate uncertainty have

[24:46] much less anxiety and depression. And

[24:48] when stressful things happen, they get

[24:50] over it more quickly. And I think there

[24:51] are practices we can do that help us

[24:55] feel ease with the uncertain future.

[24:58] Some of these mindful check-ins,

[25:01] noticing that we're carrying around

[25:03] uncertainty, stress is one way. And then

[25:07] reframing uncertainty

[25:10] as the beauty of the mystery of life and

[25:14] the freedom that we can feel when we

[25:17] realize we don't control tomorrow. we

[25:19] just go with it and we do our best and

[25:22] what delight there is in just viewing

[25:25] things with curiosity and just seeing

[25:27] what emerges. So even just our posture,

[25:29] here's an exercise for dealing with

[25:30] uncertainty

[25:32] instead of like kind of that alert

[25:34] posture when we're like trying to take

[25:36] it all in and predict the next second

[25:38] and like just lean back

[25:42] and take some slow breaths. We know

[25:44] that's going to help orient us and

[25:47] realize that we can actually face time

[25:49] in that way by letting it come to us and

[25:53] receiving what happens. And that's a

[25:56] completely different body stance than

[25:58] our usual go mode during the day. And

[26:01] that's just a way of saying

[26:04] I am in a you know receptive mode and

[26:07] I'm going to just be curious about what

[26:09] arises.

[26:11] And so I actually learned that on a

[26:12] meditation retreat because I tend to be

[26:15] type A and I'll leave a retreat going

[26:17] from like very relaxed to like that

[26:20] leaning forward tense of like where's

[26:22] the to-do list? And so carrying with me

[26:25] that posture of like let

[26:28] time unfold as it will without trying to

[26:31] control things.

[26:32] >> It's really interesting. It gets right

[26:33] to the heart of something that I spent a

[26:35] lot of time thinking about in the

[26:36] context of stress management and also

[26:40] just general thriving which is that I

[26:43] think that about half of the messages

[26:44] that we get related to stress and

[26:47] mindbody interventions relate to

[26:49] adopting this forward center of mass.

[26:52] this idea of when challenge arises, you

[26:54] smash into it, you go through it. On the

[26:56] other hand, there are these stress

[26:57] mitigation techniques, both mental and

[27:00] physical, body oriented, mind oriented,

[27:02] etc. that are more of the sort that you

[27:04] described that are um they're not um

[27:07] being back on your heels, so to speak,

[27:09] like letting things bulldoze you, but

[27:12] are more of this uh receptive mode. Do

[27:14] you think it's fair for us to adopt a

[27:17] sort of a general framework and model

[27:18] that that perhaps people can adopt for

[27:20] themselves if they like that of course

[27:21] it's not an eitheror but that having

[27:23] both of these in one's kit of tools

[27:26] could be valuable um because one is less

[27:30] energetically demanding but of course

[27:32] offers less opportunity for agency

[27:35] >> um or at least apparently so that's the

[27:37] leaning back and then the the other

[27:38] certainly gives an opportunity for

[27:39] agency but we know from 100 years or

[27:43] more of psychology and psychiatric

[27:45] literature

[27:46] >> and from the emerging literature on

[27:48] stress mitigation that

[27:50] >> it's work. It's not something that is

[27:53] without a cost. It can get you far

[27:56] better results than it were you to just

[27:58] let stress bulldoze you, but that it's

[28:00] work. And so we have to emphasize that

[28:03] work um in very deliberate ways.

[28:06] >> When we know it's productive, we should

[28:07] work. And when we know there's a brick

[28:09] wall, we should let go. So I think of it

[28:12] I like this forward mass idea. I think

[28:14] of it as you muscle it and or you

[28:17] release it. And we need both. And so

[28:20] that letting go is a really important

[28:23] wise you know discerning way to mitigate

[28:27] stress in the right situations in the

[28:29] right time and you know we can't muscle

[28:31] through everything right. So another way

[28:33] I like to think about it is just the

[28:35] waves of life. Like I mean we are in an

[28:38] ocean and we have small waves, we have

[28:40] big waves, but we're always going to be

[28:42] hit by the next wave. And so it's this

[28:45] skillful surfing or navigating that we

[28:49] can do better, when we realize when we

[28:52] control things, when we can't, when we

[28:54] can truly feel safe and have ease versus

[28:56] when we need to kind of gently paddle.

[28:59] For people that are listening to this

[29:00] and that and want to start to adopt

[29:02] practices, do you think that spending

[29:05] some time creating a written or a spoken

[29:08] narrative is helpful? I mean, we hear

[29:10] this, but are there any data that

[29:12] support the use of journaling as a as a

[29:15] tool?

[29:15] >> Definitely. Creating a coherent

[29:18] narrative is critical to our ability to

[29:23] make sense, find meaning, find

[29:25] resolution, have a social identity

[29:27] around our lived experience, what

[29:30] happens to us. So narrative is kind of

[29:32] everything, right? In stress research,

[29:34] it's it's not what happens to us, it's

[29:36] how we're interpreting it and how we're

[29:37] responding to it. And I've I've heard

[29:39] you say the exact same thing when you've

[29:41] talked about what is stress. It's it's

[29:43] really what narrative we're creating

[29:44] around it. So I think a narrative of

[29:47] purpose, fill in the blank about what

[29:49] your what's meaningful to you. But that

[29:52] is why we're different than just the

[29:54] rats that we study or the monkeys. We

[29:56] have the ability to do this projection

[29:58] to the future to ask what is our purpose

[30:01] in life to see and know that we are

[30:05] going to die and we can have some

[30:08] control over how we live and maybe even

[30:11] how we die and how we want to be

[30:12] remembered. That is so beautiful. That

[30:15] helps us rise above this being monkeys

[30:18] and clothes.

[30:19] >> I want to first of all just say thank

[30:20] you for doing the incredibly important

[30:22] work you do. I also just want to thank

[30:24] you for taking the time today to share

[30:25] this information. I know I speak on

[30:27] behalf of many many people and I just

[30:30] really want to extend my gratitude.

[30:31] >> Thank you so much and thank you for for

[30:34] your podcast.

[30:35] >> Well, it's a labor of love and it's days

[30:37] like today and discussions like this

[30:39] that make it worthwhile. So, thank you.

[30:40] >> Thanks, Andrew.

AH
ArtistAndrew Huberman

Stanford neuroscientist and tenured professor who studies vision repair, stress resilience, and neural plasticity, and shares science-based tools for everyday life through the Hube…

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Preguntas Frecuentes

Elissa Epel describes acute and moderate stress as events that take days or months to cope with, where the key is restoring daily. Chronic stress runs for years, such as caregiving situations that cannot be changed. Her point is that the duration and the body's recovery matter more than the event alone.
Epel explains that the mind tends to move toward perceived threat and problem-solve it, which can keep you stuck in a threat or red mind state. Thoughts are the most common form of stress, she says. Awareness of this habit, plus body-based and environmental strategies, can help you break the loop.
Epel studies how chronic stress accelerates cellular aging, but she emphasizes large variation between people. Some caregivers she has studied look as biologically young as people with no major stressors, which suggests how someone copes with stress shapes its impact.
A threat appraisal means you doubt your resources and expect harm, while a challenge appraisal means you believe you have what it takes to meet the demand. Epel says the challenge frame allows the same effort without the same physiological toll, so it is worth choosing when it is accurate.
Radical acceptance means you stop spending energy fighting facts you cannot change and focus on living well within them. Epel recommends it for chronic stressors like caregiving, where endless problem-solving keeps the body mobilized without changing the situation.
Epel describes body-based strategies that metabolize stress, including posture and slow breathing, which she suggests for moments of uncertainty. She also recommends checking in with the body to notice hidden tension, and creating safety signals like comforting music, pictures, or smells in your environment.
Epel says people need to make sense of experience, find meaning, and locate a purpose that makes hard efforts worthwhile. Journaling can help you examine whether your personal narrative about stress is built around helplessness or around agency and what you value.

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