Transcript
[0:03] Dan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Ten
Percent Happier podcast. I'm your host,
[0:07] Dan Harris. In preparing for today's
episode, I came across a phrase, uh,
[0:13] coined, uh, by my guest today, and the phrase
is, "Chasing the illusion of stability." I'm
[0:19] gonna say that again. "Chasing the illusion of
stability." When I read that, I realized that
[0:26] pretty much explains all of my anxiety, uh, about
my family, about my work life, about the world.
[0:32] I just kinda w- wanna be able to
control things. Uh, but that, of course,
[0:37] is not how the world works, and so my guest
today is gonna talk about how we can have a
[0:41] different relationship with uncertainty, with
change, uh, which all ladders up, of course,
[0:47] to resiliency. My guest is Suzanne Song. She's
a Harvard and Stanford-trained psychiatrist,
[0:53] and she's got a new book, which is
called Why We Suffer and How We Heal.
[0:57] Dr. Song, welcome to the show.
[0:59] Suzan: Thank you for having me.
[1:00] Dan: It's a pleasure. So your, your, uh, work,
at least in this regard, uh, on, in the book,
[1:05] seems like a classic case, and you'll correct me
if I'm wrong, but it seems like a classic case of,
[1:10] uh, research as me-search, as I often hear, um,
from researchers in, in the psychology space.
[1:16] And it seems to be rooted in your own personal
experience, starting with some really hard things
[1:23] that happened with your dad when you were younger.
Are you comfortable walking us through that story?
[1:28] Suzan: Sure, yeah, and I think you're right.
It was probably research as me-search,
[1:32] though of course, I didn't know that at the time.
[1:34] So I'm a psychiatrist and a social science
researcher. I do policy and research in
[1:39] humanitarian settings. So I was working,
doing a study in Burundi with former child
[1:44] soldiers on intergenerational stress.
And I think it was my third year there,
[1:48] and I essentially had a scene where
one of my for- former child soldiers
[1:54] had turned on me and threatened me for
my life, so I had to go into hiding.
[1:59] And I was sitting and hiding in this room in
Burundi, and I thought to myself, like, "How
[2:03] the hell did I get here?" I am a Korean American
woman now in hiding for my life from former child
[2:10] soldiers in a small country that nobody really
knows. And the first realization that I had was,
[2:19] "Oh, it's, it's Dad." So when I was 15 years
old, um, my family owned a liquor store outside
[2:26] of Baltimore, and one of the robberies had
gone too far, so my father was assaulted.
[2:32] He was, um, carjacked in an attempted
murder, and he later died. So as a teenager,
[2:40] I didn't really think it affected me that
much, honestly. I-- This was a time when I
[2:46] didn't go to therapy. I didn't really talk to
anybody about it. You just kind of keep going,
[2:51] and the thing that I knew I
needed was just stability.
[2:54] Like, I needed to keep my grades up, to keep doing
my activities, so I could get to college and just
[2:58] keep working and achieving, and that would lead
to a very stable life that would protect me in
[3:05] some way from what, I don't really know. And so
I did. I worked my three jobs. I went to college,
[3:11] med school, grad school, all the things, and
it really wasn't until this almost two decades
[3:17] later that I'm in Burundi, and I realize I had
essentially recreated another scene of violence.
[3:24] This time it was towards me, and so now I
would have the ability to stop the violence,
[3:30] to have a different ending
And I think that really,
[3:36] um, led me to a lot of this work and trying
to understand, like, what is it? How do we
[3:41] people actually not just thrive and not just
survive, but how do we engage in the world?
[3:48] Like, what happens to us after we experience
major instabilities, and how do we connect the
[3:54] dots of all the experiences in our lives, um, to
create something of meaning and understanding?
[3:59] Dan: First of all, I'm really sorry
about what happened with your dad. I
[4:02] know it was a long time ago, but that's
a horrible thing to happen to anybody,
[4:05] and especially, uh, for you as
a, a, at such a formative age.
[4:09] I'm curious to, to learn a little bit more about
how that searing experience, which clearly for
[4:16] very justifiable reasons, you, you didn't fully
metabolize at the time, how exactly that lands
[4:22] you in Burundi. Um, I believe you have a term
that you use in the book, repetition compulsion.
[4:29] Suzan: Yeah.
[4:29] Dan: Um, is, is that the apt term, and, and,
um, yeah, what, what should we know about it?
[4:36] Suzan: Yeah, so essentially, it's when we live our
life in cycles. We have these patterns. You know,
[4:43] when I was a teenager, my brain, my psyche
didn't have the resources and the capacity to,
[4:49] like, actually understand what's going
on. So I couldn't really touch down on
[4:54] the hopelessness or the fear or
the sadness. And so I just focus
[5:00] on over-functioning and not really
understanding what had happened.
[5:05] My father did pass away. He w- what I found out
actually only recently in, in writing this book,
[5:12] I had always thought that he was murdered. When
I was writing this book, my agent actually said,
[5:18] "You know, tell me more about your father." And
so I went back, and I started looking up i- if I
[5:22] could. I mean, he died pre-internet, so
I was trying to find anything I could.
[5:26] And I found a small Baltimore Sun article,
and it gave me the dates. And actually,
[5:32] his as- uh, attempted kidnapping was
a full year later Uh, before he had
[5:38] actually passed away. And I thought he had
died immediately. And so I asked my mother,
[5:42] I said, "How do you make sense of this?
There's a whole year gap in between."
[5:47] And she said, "No, no, he came home after
the assault. He lived in our house. Like,
[5:51] you played violin for him,
you made dinner for him." Now,
[5:54] I did not remember that entire year. That's
all out of my memory. And so the memory, like,
[6:00] our brains do something very protective for
us. The problem is, is when we never really
[6:05] address what had happened, when we have these
fragmented stories, these fragmented narratives,
[6:10] and we don't have a way of understanding
what's happened, it has a way to repeat itself.
[6:14] That same theme will repeat itself
subconsciously, unconsciously in the future,
[6:20] in other aspects of our life. So for me, it
was recreating another scene. But this happens
[6:25] all the time. You know what? It's not uncommon
that I'll have someone who comes and they say,
[6:30] you know, it's, say it's a woman who
says, "I will never marry anyone with
[6:34] an alcohol addiction because my father was an
addict, and I don't want to deal with that."
[6:40] And so she marries, and it's, the guy is not
an alcoholic, but it ends up that he has a work
[6:45] addiction. And she has the same feelings, and
she's trying to win back his love in the same
[6:50] way that she did her father, right? We all have
these pa- Even in the workplace, this happens. So
[6:55] I was working with someone who is kind of C-suite,
and this is her third job where she's second-best.
[7:01] And I asked her, "Look, what is the pattern
here? When's the first time you experienced
[7:05] this being second?" She kept saying it
was second-best, and her brother had an
[7:09] addiction when she was growing up, and so
the family always focused on the brother,
[7:13] and so she always felt second-best. And now
here it is playing out in her workplace.
[7:18] So it's these patterns that we have,
and we don't quite understand them,
[7:22] as I didn't understand the relationship
between Berenide and my father. We have
[7:26] to sit back and like actually even like
map out the experiences to say like,
[7:31] "Is there a pattern here, and what's driving
that?" And oftentimes it's repetition compulsion.
[7:37] Dan: So why do we do it? I know it's
subconscious, but do we do it as a
[7:41] way to recreate the conditions so that we
can finally deal with them successfully?
[7:45] Suzan: Yeah, we want mastery. We just
want control over the situ- Because we
[7:50] didn't have control back then. And
so I couldn't engage with or find
[7:57] mastery over the helplessness that I
might have felt as a child, the fear.
[8:01] And so we create a very similar environment
and scene, but this time around we think, oh,
[8:06] I'll control it now. Either I will find
safety or I'll make this person love me,
[8:11] or I will prove to everyone that I'm a good
person. I'll show them. And so the problem is,
[8:18] is that that rarely is the case. We never
really get the outcome that we're wanting,
[8:23] and it just repeats itself
until we cause awareness.
[8:26] We bring the unconscious to the
conscious, so we can say, "Okay,
[8:29] there is a pattern here. Let
me pause and think about this."
[8:31] Dan: What is the connection between this
repetition compulsion, in your case,
[8:36] violence against your father,
subconsciously creating a situation
[8:40] where there's violence directed at you,
or threats of violence directed at you?
[8:43] What is the connection between this
very human repetition compulsion and
[8:49] the very human desire for stability, even
though stability is not really on offer?
[8:53] Suzan: Our brains are predictive machines. Like,
[8:57] we want to know what's going on and what's
going to ha- we like the foresight. We want
[9:02] to be able to strategize and say,
like, "This is going to happen."
[9:05] And so the repetition compulsion almost
becomes Like our baseline of stability,
[9:11] right? So we say, "Okay, we know that
there's going to be... We know this pattern,
[9:15] so we're gonna make the pattern happen
again." That's our form of stability.
[9:20] On the surface, on the outside, we say
to ourselves, "This is the instability.
[9:24] How can I be in this relationship again where I'm
married and it's, like, someone with an addiction?
[9:29] I told myself I would never do that again."
And so we say, like, we're tired of all these
[9:33] life instabilities, but actually it's our brain
wanting to not have a predictive error. Our brain
[9:39] is wanting to know, like, what is predictable,
what can I control, what can I manage?
[9:45] And so it's gonna keep giving you the same lesson,
and you have to just learn it at some point.
[9:51] Dan: We're gonna come back to how we can deal
with, uh, repetition compulsion. Um, but let
[9:55] me just step back to your, your core
thesis, which is, as I said at, in,
[9:59] at the beginning, like this, this
chasing the illusion of stability.
[10:04] I've said this before on the show, so I apologize
to loyal listeners who- who've heard me say this,
[10:08] but it just seems like a fundamental design
flaw in the species that we live in a world
[10:15] of unremitting change, where stability
is, is truly, as I said, not on offer,
[10:22] uh, at least not for an extended period
of time, and yet we want it so badly.
[10:26] How do we explain this, this tragic mismatch?
[10:29] Suzan: I think a lot of it is because we have been
groomed, society has groomed us since childhood
[10:37] to thinking that stability, one, is possible,
like there is a state of permanent stability,
[10:42] which we know is not true, but also that stability
is success. And so we're told at a very early age,
[10:49] "This is the school you should go to, the grades
you should get, the person you should marry.
[10:53] We should get this house. This is the job you
should have, and make sure it's a stable job,
[10:57] because that will secure you for the future in
some way." And that is the social narrative that
[11:03] we're all absorbing, so that if success
is stability, it's supposed to protect
[11:08] you from the major life challenges. And of
course, we know that's just not the case.
[11:13] But if that's the foundation, then any
time some major disruption happens, like
[11:19] illness or divorce or our kids aren't doing
well, we almost want to get away from it as
[11:25] fast as possible. So we want to just get over
it and just keep on moving and just go past
[11:30] it. But then we miss this opportunity
to really say, "Well, wait a minute.
[11:36] What is our natural way of engaging with hard
things?" Like, we all have very individualized
[11:42] ways of coping through things. So what is
that for us? 'Cause if we learn that now,
[11:48] that will help us the next time something
major comes along, and it will. So I think
[11:54] the more that we understand that stability
really is an illusion, the more we can take
[12:00] a step back and say, "Okay, given that,
how do we actually engage in the world?"
[12:05] Like, I work with, in refugee, um, camps,
and I'm always surprised because people can
[12:12] be displaced and living in a refugee camp. They
can also love. They can laugh. They can learn
[12:18] new skills. They can contribute to the community.
So how is that? They're living in these times of
[12:25] chronic instability and unrest, and yet they
can still engage meaningfully in the world.
[12:31] Like, I think that is beautiful,
and I think it's very compelling.
[12:34] That's actually why I wrote the book.
Like, how were they able to do that?
[12:37] Dan: If you are anxious about the upcoming
midterm elections in the United States,
[12:42] you are not alone. I certainly feel that way. So,
uh, we are gonna do what I always advise people.
[12:48] We're gonna never worry alone. We're gonna do
that together. I've got two live video guided
[12:54] meditation and Q&A sessions coming up, one
on Election Day on November 3rd and the other
[12:59] on November 4th. These are available to anyone,
whether you're a subscriber to my app or not. The
[13:05] one on Tuesday, on the 3rd, I'll be doing with
the great meditation teacher, Vinnie Ferraro.
[13:10] Again, we'll meditate with all of you and
then take your questions. And then the,
[13:14] the one on the day after, I'll be doing that one
solo. Like I said, this is totally free to anyone,
[13:19] whether you're a subscriber to my app or
not. All you have to do if you're not a
[13:23] subscriber is sign up for my newsletter at
danharris.com, and then we will send you
[13:28] the info to join me and our community on
Zoom on November 3rd and on November 4th.
[13:34] It's free. It's in the afternoon. It'll be
a great way to calm your nervous system.
[13:40] We'll see you there. When girls have access to
education, they gain more than knowledge. They
[13:44] gain the confidence, opportunity, and power to
shape their own futures. Guatemalan leader Lydia
[13:50] Ochi is opening pathways for indigenous girls
to access global education, helping young people
[13:56] discover new possibilities while remaining rooted
in the strength of their cultures and identities.
[14:01] Her work shows how expanding opportunities
for girls can strengthen families,
[14:05] uplift communities, and shape a brighter future.
[14:08] Hosted by the climber and environmental advocate
Alex Honnold, Planet Visionaries celebrates the
[14:14] leaders whose work is creating meaningful
change that can ripple across generations.
[14:19] In partnership
[14:19] Suzan: with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative,
[14:22] this is Planet Visionaries. Watch or
listen wherever you get your podcasts.
[14:26] Dan: I, I have this memory of, uh, I was not
a humanitarian. I was a journalist and spent
[14:33] a lot of time in conflict zones in my
younger years post 9/11. And I remember
[14:37] being in Ramallah in the West Bank during
the Second Intifada, so this would be 2002.
[14:43] Uh, and the Israeli army invaded,
[14:46] um And, uh, I was not embedded with the Army, I
was actually embedded with a civilian population,
[14:54] staying in a house in Ramallah with, um, a
bunch of other journalists. And, you know,
[15:00] just bombs going off on our street and tanks
rolling down the streets, and it was super gnarly.
[15:05] And, uh, at some point, there was a, an eight-hour
ceasefire called, and everybody went shopping.
[15:14] Suzan: Mm.
[15:14] Dan: It's like the, the urge for normalcy-
[15:18] Suzan: Mm-hmm ...
[15:18] Dan: just reasserted itself-
[15:21] Suzan: Mm-hmm ...
[15:21] Dan: in such a powerful way.
[15:24] Suzan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and sometimes...
Look, and we need that sometimes. Like in,
[15:27] in every humanitarian setting, one of the first
things we do for children is we get schools open.
[15:33] We build schools to get kids back into a s- sense
of normalcy as soon as possible. So we do need,
[15:38] like humans need a baseline of
security and stability. Like,
[15:42] that's foundational. But then beyond that, I think
a lot of what... You know, a lot of our suffering,
[15:49] I think, is due to this desire for life
not being how we want it to be, right?
[15:55] It's this disconnect between, like, where our
reality is and what we want our life to be.
[16:00] And normally, we want our life to be stable,
'cause then we can control it. We can predict
[16:05] what's gonna happen. And as we see right now,
I mean, look at right now, we're, we've got,
[16:10] like, AI threatening everyone's jobs. We have
climate crises, a political turmoil going on.
[16:16] I mean, we are living right now in times of
chronic unrest. And so I often find myself saying,
[16:22] like, "Ah, I can't wait for life to be
stable again." Yes. But then we, like,
[16:28] put off living. Like, we can still- Yes ... learn
to engage in, in the world. And, and so these
[16:33] examples like the, of yours, in these war zones,
and the people I've worked with, I don't know.
[16:38] I feel like if you wanna learn something,
you learn from the most extreme,
[16:43] and these are people who are living in so-
some of the most extreme Settings possible,
[16:50] and they're still able to thrive and engage.
[16:52] Dan: There's s- I don't know who said this. I
just heard this. S- you know, I, I, it ... After
[16:57] hosting a show for more than 10 years, I can't
remember who said what to me, but something like,
[17:02] "The problem isn't the problem, the problem
is your relationship to the problem."
[17:06] Suzan: Mm.
[17:06] Dan: Um, and is, is, is that
apropos in this context?
[17:09] Suzan: There is the event of what's happened,
and then there's how we live with that event,
[17:15] right? And so suffering, there is some
suffering that there's no amount of,
[17:21] like, mindset change that's
gonna make it any better. Like,
[17:23] I work with survivors of torture, trafficking,
hostage, like that's human rights violations.
[17:29] It's just suffering, pure and simple. But
then there are the more kind of common
[17:35] ordinary stressors that we all go through,
like the breakups and the job loss and the,
[17:40] you know, normal life ruptures.
And that suffering is oftentimes
[17:44] the gap between what's going on right
now and just what we want. Like the
[17:49] world is not as we want it to be,
and that's causing the suffering.
[17:52] And that should hopefully give us a lot of,
[17:56] um, hope because it means that we have a lot
more agency in our suffering. I think so much,
[18:02] so many times we think like our despair is
just, "Oh, things are so bad and that's just
[18:06] how it is." But actually, we do actually have
a lot of control over whether we not we suffer.
[18:12] Dan: So, so the book is called, uh, and
I mentioned this in the intro of course,
[18:16] but the book is called Why We Suffer
and How We Heal. So I think we've,
[18:20] unless you disagree, I feel like we've
pretty firmly established why we suffer.
[18:25] Suzan: Mm.
[18:25] Dan: Um, but the bulk of the book is really,
[18:28] um, focused on how we heal. And your concept
is that there are these three ways to change
[18:36] our relationships to uncertainty, and you
call them the three friends of winter.
[18:42] What does that mean?
[18:43] Suzan: Yeah. So these are the tools
that I've seen people across cultures
[18:48] and contexts that they have called upon,
um, to find ways to en- engage in the
[18:54] world with a sense of mastery, uh, among
the chronic instability. So narratives are
[19:00] essentially the stories and explanations we have
about our reality of what's going on in the world.
[19:05] They are the logic kind of operating system
that underlies all of our thoughts, our actions.
[19:13] So narratives are useful 'cause they give
us insight. Insight isn't enough. We need
[19:18] something for behavioral change.
So the rituals come in because
[19:21] rituals embody our insights into
practice. They give us movement.
[19:27] They connect us to ourselves, they connect
us to people across time and space. And then
[19:33] purpose is what gives us direction. So purpose is
something of meaning that's larger than ourselves
[19:40] that tell us how to use our time, our resources,
and our energy. And I call them the three friends
[19:47] because one of the things that I've learned in
my work abroad is that healing is relational.
[19:55] It's not in ... Like, Americans, we're very,
very individualized in our suffering and in
[20:01] our healing. Like, if, if someone loses a,
a loved one, they get a week off of work,
[20:08] they're told to go talk to a psychiatrist or
a therapist, doing one-on-one insight therapy,
[20:14] and then to come back and to be
productive, like be good now.
[20:18] And it's very individualized. What I see
in other contexts is that healing is very
[20:23] much relational. It's through a sense of
belonging. It's through being needed. It's
[20:28] through mattering to another person.
Um, and I think we lose out on some of
[20:33] that. The three friends of winter in
and of itself is an Asian art motif.
[20:36] Um, they're bamboo, pine, and
plum blossom. And so these are
[20:41] these three very hearty winter plants that
thrive in the harshest of environments.
[20:47] Dan: Winter for, in this analogy
is, uh, hard times, instability,
[20:51] and these are our three friends, meaning
they're three ways to, to weather,
[20:56] uh, the various inevitable, unavoidable
storms that happen in every life.
[21:01] Um, and again, they are narrative, ritual, and
purpose. Let's go through them. When you say
[21:06] narrative is a friend of winter, in other words
a, a, a tool we can lean on as a way to deal in
[21:12] a more supple and sophisticated way with life's
vexations, what do you mean specifically? Like,
[21:18] we can, we can tell a different
story that's more em- empowering?
[21:21] Suzan: I'll give you an example.
So I commonly see in my practice,
[21:25] um- Mothers with young children who are
also working full-time and, you know,
[21:31] doing all the everything. Early in the family
life cycle, right? It's, it's a hard time for
[21:36] the whole family. And they'll often come
in saying, "I know that I need time off.
[21:41] I know I need just a break to go one hour
at the gym. I know that's what I need,
[21:46] and my partner will help me with
that. Like, they're encouraging that,
[21:50] and yet I feel like I'm just not a
good parent. I feel really guilty if
[21:55] I take that time for myself." Like, this is
extremely common. And so that's hard because
[21:59] the narrative that she's telling herself
is she understands the logic of it, right?
[22:05] I know that I need to take care of myself in order
to take care of my child. She understands what she
[22:09] needs to do. Like, I know I want to go to the
gym or have an hour break for myself But the
[22:15] guilt is getting in the way. Well, what's that
guilt about? And oftentimes it's this internal
[22:21] script that she has absorbed from culture, from
society, from the way she was growing up, about
[22:28] what a mother should, what a good mother should
be, what she should look like, how she should act.
[22:32] She should be self-sacrificing. This,
like, martyrdom of motherhood. And so
[22:36] that internal script is running her life. It's
like someone else wrote this script for her,
[22:42] and now she's playing it out, and she's
confused 'cause it's not working for her.
[22:46] We all have these internal scripts of what
does it mean to be, you know, good at work?
[22:51] For me, like, what does it mean to be
a good physician or a good, you know,
[22:54] parent? And once we understand what our
internal scripts are, then we can say,
[23:01] "Okay, is this working for me? Is this what I
really think? W- what do I think a good mother
[23:05] should be?" And we can even, like, write that
out to start rewriting some of the narrative,
[23:11] to reclaim some of our, our own actions
and our own, you know, values and beliefs.
[23:16] Dan: How can we start to... Because I
feel like there are probably seven or
[23:20] eight subconscious scripts, um, that are
running in my brain, uh, that are making
[23:25] me do stupid sh*t on the regulars. Like, so how
can we figure out what these scripts might be?
[23:31] Suzan: One is to first just notice
when you're feeling that, you know,
[23:37] like, we all have this, like
the pang of resentment or anger.
[23:41] Like, whenever you feel, like, a big emotion
that seems disproportionate to what's going
[23:46] on. So if we're really, like, resentful that, you
know, somebody at work said something about us or
[23:52] they're requiring more of our time, like, what
is that about? And is there some threat to our
[23:58] identity? Is there some role that is being
threatened right now, and what is that role?
[24:05] And we write it out. So maybe it's, you know,
worker or whatever it is. We write that out
[24:11] so we can start to understand what is this role
about? Who wrote this? Where'd I get this from,
[24:17] and what do I want to be like?
I mean, we think about who am I,
[24:20] but who do you want to be? And that will give us
some direction to how we wanna live our lives.
[24:27] Dan: So it, it really goes back to, like,
rewriting the script. You identify the script,
[24:32] and one way to figure out which script
is, is running your life is to, like,
[24:37] tune into the suffering. Like, where am I feeling
resentful? Where am I feeling, uh, misaligned? Um,
[24:45] and that can be, like, the portal to figuring
out, like, I've got some story in my head.
[24:50] Um, and then you can, you know,
use... You can literally sit down,
[24:55] pen in hand, write out the old
script, and then write a new one.
[24:58] Suzan: Yeah. And i- in writing the new script-
You know what? We write it, and then we actually
[25:04] iterate and, like, try out new things. So there
is, um, a researcher named Herminia Ibarra who
[25:12] did this, this series of studies on staff who
were being promoted into managerial roles.
[25:18] So they were technical, and now they're being
promoted into managerial roles. And she found
[25:23] that the people who really struggled were
the ones who couldn't let go of their,
[25:29] basically their script of what their job
should be, what they were good at. So people
[25:34] who th- who believe themselves to be very good
at the technical aspect, and they didn't think
[25:40] they would be very good managers, of course,
they had a really hard time leveling up there.
[25:45] And so even if they took the job and they
wanted the job in the managerial position,
[25:50] they kept thinking, "Well, I am known as being
good technically." And until they rewrite the
[25:59] script and say, "Okay, I can actually be a
manager," but then they iterate and they try
[26:05] it out. They try different things, and
you say, "Okay, well, this is working.
[26:08] This one's not." And so it's this
iterative process to changing how
[26:13] we behave and, and changing our roles and
responsibilities in that iden- identity.
[26:19] Dan: I find it so fascinating,
and I, I come back to the theme,
[26:23] this theme so often on the show
because I find it so fascinating. Um,
[26:28] I just can't get over the fact that we
are talking to ourselves all the time.
[26:33] Um, and we're telling ourselves stories that
we're aware of or not that are making us,
[26:38] often making us unhappy. And it
is possible to rewire this inner
[26:43] talk track in ways that are extremely beneficial.
[26:48] Suzan: Mm-hmm. Yes, and I think, you
know, I'm very thankful that early,
[26:52] very early in my career when I was
training in the US as a psychiatrist,
[26:56] I also had this parallel career doing policy
and research in humanitarian settings.
[27:01] And so we see that Americans, we are
obsessed with our thoughts. Like,
[27:06] we love to just take them out of our
brain and put them under a microscope,
[27:11] and we do all the cognitive restructuring and
reframing and, and that's very important. Like,
[27:16] studies are very clear on the benefits of
psychotherapy and mindfulness meditation, right?
[27:21] At the same time, I was working and living
in these other countries and contexts where
[27:26] there are no therapists, right? Sierra Leone,
Liberia, Burundi, they all have, like, one
[27:30] psychiatrist for the whole country, and there are
no therapists. There is a lot of suffering there,
[27:35] but many people are doing okay. So how are they
healing if they don't have the same relationship
[27:42] with their thoughts and, and they don't have
therapy as the main intervention of healing?
[27:49] And that's when I really realized
that when we get outside of ourselves,
[27:55] because people that live in these, like,
relationally interdependent communities,
[27:59] their identities and their, their
self is defined not by the individual,
[28:04] it's defined in relationship. So if I go
to, let's say, I remember I was going,
[28:09] I was doing this evaluation in Sierra Leone,
and I asked people, like, "How are you doing?"
[28:12] And they say, "Good or bad." And I say, "Okay,
like, really, how are you doing?" And they'll say,
[28:19] "Well, I'm bad because I can't get a job for
my family. I can't provide for my fam-" It's
[28:24] all in relation to their roles. And here in the
US, I think we're very focused on our thoughts,
[28:31] our feelings, our experiences. That's
not necessarily the same case in many,
[28:36] many cultures around the world, where, yes,
they're still ruminating and they still have
[28:42] thoughts that they're constantly, um, churning in
their mind, but it's not as much of an evaluation.
[28:50] Like, we do a lot of self-evaluation. It
tends to be pretty negative judgments.
[28:56] So there's still rumination, but the content is
very different. It's very focused on outwards,
[29:02] on other, because the whole concept of self
is enmeshed and embodied in, in another.
[29:08] Dan: But for those of us who don't live
in, in, in those kinds of cultures,
[29:12] we live in this, in, I'm, I'm
sitting in New York right now.
[29:16] I live in a culture that really does center the
self. What can we learn very practically from,
[29:22] from this other model, and how
do we apply it in our lives?
[29:25] Suzan: Yeah, I think this is one of the
benefits. It's that sometimes we can try
[29:33] to expand outwards with our thinking. So let's
say we're going through a really hard time.
[29:40] What we'll tend to ask ourselves is, "How am I
feeling?" Or, "How am I doing?" Maybe we ask that,
[29:46] but the next question can be, "Who can
I help? Where can I engage in the world
[29:50] outside? Where can I en- engage my community
or my workplace? Who do I matter to? Who do
[29:55] I want to matter to?" These are all questions
that get outside of our individual experience.
[30:03] We still acknowledge it, and we're not,
[30:06] um, ignoring it. We're just also
bringing in a whole nother community,
[30:13] like, a whole nother sense of our identity
as being connected to humanity at large.
[30:17] Dan: So this would be a way if
we're running self-limiting scripts,
[30:24] one way to step out of them, uh,
we talked about rewriting them,
[30:27] but another way to step out of them
would be, uh, to focus on other people.
[30:32] Suzan: Yeah, to redirect. To say, you know,
maybe right now I don't have to ask about how
[30:39] my f- and look, I'm a psychiatrist, right?
So, like, feelings, emotions, all of that,
[30:43] good. And also Sometimes we need to step
outside of that. Like, there's a lot of
[30:50] talk around mental health right now. Great. We
don't wanna stigmatize mental health issues.
[30:56] But a lot of the discussion around mental
health is focusing on this lowering of symptoms,
[31:01] of depression, of anxiety, et cetera. But an
equal question I think we need to be asking is,
[31:08] how is a person living? Because I know plenty
of people that have mental health symptoms,
[31:16] depression, anxiety, and they're also
able to love and to belong in a community
[31:22] and to engage and participate
at their kid's school, right?
[31:25] And I know a lot of people who have
really no mental health symptoms,
[31:29] and they're isolated, and they can't
actually engage in the world at large.
[31:35] So just because we're feeling better
doesn't mean that we are being well,
[31:41] right? Th- there's a, a difference there.
And so the more we can take ourselves out
[31:45] of ourselves and remind ourselves that we are
part of something larger, and we actually get
[31:53] a lot of healing and kind of agency when we
embed ourselves in other relations around us.
[32:01] Dan: I've seen that play out in my
own life many times. My wife Bianca
[32:06] has a bunch of glasses from Warby Parker.
She's got, uh, readers, distance glasses,
[32:12] progressives. She's got one pair that's
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[32:17] she likes all of their styles, but in
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[32:21] Long way of saying the Harrises are, uh,
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[33:04] That's 20% off any additional pairs when you
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[33:18] On the show, we talk a lot about how to
train your mind, tame the inner critic,
[33:21] and build habits that make you happier. But
a big part of that equation is asking broader
[33:26] questions about what actually constitutes
a good and meaningful life. That's why I
[33:31] wanna share a podcast with you. It's called
No Small Endeavor, and it's hosted by Lee C.
[33:35] Camp. On No Small Endeavor, Lee brings
together world-class thinkers, psychologists,
[33:40] neuroscientists, and authors to explore what
it means to live a life worth living. Uh,
[33:46] they dive deeply into topics such as
resilience, character, connection,
[33:50] and joy, not in a high-minded, dusty textbook way,
but with incredible nuance and practical warmth.
[33:57] In a special new series, Lee explores the human
ache that secularism can't explain and the new
[34:03] spiritualities that may not be able to fill it.
Lee travels around the world talking to guests
[34:07] on both sides of the war between science
and religion, like Bell Tyndall Reilly,
[34:12] a biblical scholar from rural Wales who grew up
lying to her classmates about going to church.
[34:17] Alister McGrath, a theologian who came to Oxford
as a Marxist atheist and is deeply enamored with
[34:22] both science and faith. And Iain McGilchrist,
a psychiatrist who has spent thirty-five years
[34:28] asking what the two halves of the brain are
for and challenges how we see the world.
[34:33] They all agree that we live in a rational,
flattened modern world, which has consequences,
[34:37] but none of them agree on whether what
we're soothing the ache with is good news.
[34:42] If you're interested in mindfulness,
emotional resilience, and intentional living,
[34:46] No Small Endeavor is a great companion to what we
[34:49] do here. Search for No Small Endeavor
wherever you listen to your podcasts
[34:56] In the section of your book on narrative,
you talk a lot about memory and how many
[35:03] of us are dogged by unpleasant memories.
Uh, and there's actually a way to flip or
[35:10] change the script on those. Can you talk a
little bit here about how we might do that?
[35:15] Suzan: Yeah. So our narratives are
really built off of our memories.
[35:20] We imagine, though, that our memories are like
a video recorder and, um, that when we recall
[35:27] a memory, you're just, like, hitting play on
that video recorder. But actually remembering
[35:32] a memory is a process of reconstruction. So
memory is just a little neurobiology. Like,
[35:37] memories are essentially stored as these patterns
of connections across these neural networks.
[35:42] So if you imagine two people playing
tennis, these are like the neurons,
[35:46] and they're volleying back this electrochemical
signal, and now you have thousands and millions
[35:52] of neurons, like, playing tennis with each
other. They become more efficient. And
[36:01] there's a saying that's like, "The neurons
that fire together, they wire together."
[36:04] So the more efficiently they play, the more
easy it is to retrieve and recall this memory.
[36:10] But if you and I are playing tennis and
I just had an argument with a friend,
[36:15] or I felt sick the night before, I'm
not gonna play as well. And so all
[36:20] these external factors are going to affect
how I remember, how I recall this memory.
[36:26] In the same way, when we're all telling
a memory of something that's happened,
[36:31] yes, there's the true facts
of the event of what happened,
[36:35] but there's also the story and the emotional
valence we put on the memories that change
[36:39] constantly. And so memories are this process
of reconstruction. They're very suggestible.
[36:47] And so this is why so many couples are
arguing of, like, what actually happened,
[36:51] right? Or in the workplace, like,
people are fighting 'cause they,
[36:54] they don't remember the same event in the same
way. And that's because we all see and remember
[37:02] stories that are aligned with what we need
to be true And sometimes that's really hard.
[37:10] That's one of the things that really gets in
the way of our ability to rewrite a narrative
[37:14] or to engage with a changed memory, is that
oftentimes we need these narratives to be true,
[37:24] and if there's some new information, either
a memory or someone telling us some feedback
[37:28] that we don't really like, it threatens our
sense of self, of who we know ourselves to be.
[37:33] And that's really hard. It's, it's hard for us
to change our, and update our, our narratives.
[37:39] Dan: So how do we do it, or should we do it?
[37:41] Suzan: Yeah, so let's say there's a spouse, and
the spouse comes home and they say, "You know,
[37:50] I just feel like you haven't been helping out
around the house as much." And the, the spouse is
[37:55] thinking to themselves, "First of all, I pride
myself on being a good partner and provider.
[38:00] I actually am doing quite a lot in this
house," and they're, like, listing through.
[38:04] "I did the trash the other day. I did bedtime
for the kids last week," like all of the,
[38:08] the things. And so our first instinct is
to explain ourselves. And then when we get
[38:16] tired of that, we then defend ourselves and we
say, "But also, I've been really busy at work,
[38:20] and I have all these things," and we go into,
like, what's happening at work now to deflect.
[38:25] So what's happening is, one, we might have the
memories of the past that are coming into play,
[38:30] and we also then have this sense of
the information that's coming at me
[38:35] is threatening who I know myself to be as a
good partner. There's this late psychoanalyst,
[38:44] Selma Fraiberg, who had this,
coined this term that I love.
[38:47] She said, um A mother cannot hear her
child's cries until the mother's cries are
[38:55] heard first. Something like that. And it's
really that when we're feeling threatened,
[39:00] when our core identity of who we are, the
stories of who we believe ourselves to be,
[39:05] when there's a threat to that,
we are not able to hear it.
[39:09] We can't update that. We can't change
our story until we're feeling safe and
[39:16] protected in that. So what we do, and I
call it this, like, this porcupine, like,
[39:21] these porcupine quills go out, and so we want
to attack or we defend or we blame the other,
[39:30] all because that soft underbelly is really
vulnerable. And so the more that we can go
[39:35] to that underbelly and we say, "Okay, look,
I know you're a really good partner," right?
[39:39] This is where the validation comes in first. We
validate what is the story that they need to be
[39:45] true about themselves. We validate that. You're
a good person. And then we ask for change. This
[39:51] is a whole dialectic, right? Validate, and
then you ask for change. And I think that's
[39:56] kind of the prerequisite from, in order to,
like, help someone change their own stories.
[40:02] Dan: Yeah. Like, for me, if my
wife has a complaint, w- you know,
[40:07] pretty much 100% of the time
it's a legitimate complaint,
[40:10] and I can be super defensive because I
hear her saying, "You're a bad person."
[40:16] Suzan: Yes.
[40:16] Dan: Even though, of course,
that's not what she's saying,
[40:18] but that's my deepest fear, and
so therefore I get defensive.
[40:21] Suzan: Yes. Yes. And that's very common because-
We filter all information through the stories
[40:30] that we need to be true. You need it to be
true that you're a good person. We all do.
[40:35] Depending on how... It's not even depending
on how the information's coming at us,
[40:38] it's also how we're feeling
that at that moment, right?
[40:41] Like, it's all going to affect
how it's received. And so the
[40:46] more that we can just see, like bear
witness to the soft underbelly first,
[40:53] that will give us the best chance of,
you know, being able to, to rewrite.
[40:58] Dan: Is this maybe the time to talk a little bit
about practical steps for repetition compulsion?
[41:04] Would this be an appropriate
time to come back to, you know,
[41:07] I know we started with that, the fact
that we tend to recreate the conditions
[41:10] we say we don't want. Is there more to
say about how we can maybe not do that?
[41:15] Suzan: Yeah. So repetition compulsion, the f-
the first step is always to notice the pattern.
[41:21] We have to know that we're in
a repetitive pattern first.
[41:26] And so it's to understand the next
time that someone says, "Oh my gosh,
[41:31] I can't believe I'm in this again," right?
That tends to be the cue to say, "Okay,
[41:35] let's pause there." Like, what is the actual
pattern that's going on? And so we identify what
[41:41] that pattern is. What's the experience that's
happened? And it's not just the experience.
[41:46] The driver of repetition compulsion are
the feelings that were never dealt with.
[41:52] They're the feelings that were pushed
under the, the rug. helplessness,
[41:57] vulnerability. I didn't have power
or control. I felt unloved. Those
[42:02] we need to pull back 'cause that's what's
actually driving the repetition compulsion.
[42:06] So we identify the pattern, we identify what
the feelings were that were completely ignored.
[42:12] Once we bring it to light,
it starts to lose its power,
[42:16] and then we sit with that emotion,
whatever it may be, and we say, "Okay,
[42:22] I was so scared of it before. That's why it has
so much power over me." But now with almost,
[42:28] like, exposure therapy to the emotion, well,
now I realize I have more control over it.
[42:35] I'm not dying from this emotion.
And then we can say, "Logically,
[42:39] how do I want to engage with this pattern? Do I
want to break it, and if so, how?" So in my work,
[42:49] for example, you know, for, let's say for this
woman who is now married to someone who has this,
[42:54] uh, work addiction, we can
say, "Okay, what's the pattern?
[42:57] What were the feelings you were experiencing
with it? Now feel the feelings. You have control,
[43:01] so you're diluting the power of that.
Now what do you wanna do? Right?
[43:06] How you want to engage in this?" Doesn't
mean she has to leave her husband,
[43:10] right? There are lots of different options
there. So she can talk to her husband, say,
[43:14] "Hey, I've noticed this pattern in me,
and I'm having a hard time with it."
[43:19] Or she can say, "I want a different type of
relationship." In her basket, she can put out
[43:24] all these different possible solutions, and just
expanding that is a way of breaking the cycle And
[43:32] then she gets to choose one and try it out and
see what happens. When we bring it to conscious
[43:37] awareness and we say, "I'm gonna intentionally
deal with this," it starts to lose a lot of power.
[43:42] Dan: It's incredible how that,
how that can happen. Um, okay,
[43:46] so as, as we established early
in the, in this discussion,
[43:50] um, there are these three friends of winter.
We just talked about one, which is, um, working
[43:56] with narrative. The second is, is ritual. So, um,
maybe say a little bit about h- how ritual can,
[44:05] can help in this regard because I think m- many
people, and for a long time I felt this way, yeah,
[44:09] I hear the word ritual, and I just think of,
you know, pagan stuff or something like that.
[44:14] Mm-hmm. It doesn't seem like
it's relevant to my life.
[44:18] Suzan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I did too, actually. Um,
so rituals are a set of actions that really
[44:24] connect you to yourself or to others, and
they're powerful because they really bind
[44:30] us across time and space, and they bring us
closer to, to what your dreams are, actually.
[44:37] So rituals, we all use them, and I think
one of the ways in which we use them,
[44:41] there are two ways. So one is through
emotion regulation. So let's say any athlete,
[44:47] most athletes have some sort of
rituals to help regulate. Steph
[44:50] Curry does a tunnel shot before
his games. Like, Serena Williams,
[44:54] I think she bounces the ball five times before
her first serve, two times before a second serve.
[44:59] Like, these are all just rituals that help us find
more control, predictability, and they regulate.
[45:04] So they can do, they can help with emotion
regulation. They can also help with emotional
[45:07] scaffolding during the times when things are just
so hard we can't think through anything. When you
[45:14] think about losing a loved one, a lot of times
when we've lost a loved one, time stands still.
[45:22] We don't know what to do with ourselves.
Like, where do we go? Who do we talk to?
[45:27] What are we supposed to be doing? So most every
culture has some sort of ritual around how to go
[45:35] through the grieving process, and that ritual's
important because it connects us to others.
[45:41] It kind of, it's this community telling
us, "Okay, we're all in this together.
[45:44] We've all experienced loss before." And also it
helps to guide you when, like, we really can't
[45:51] think about what to do. Rituals can also help us
when we reintegrate into life. So let's say either
[45:58] it's after divorce, like I think after a divorce,
so many people go off and they have their new
[46:04] rituals or hobbies that they do, or, um, people
going through the change of retirement, right?
[46:13] Like sometimes we need some kind of a marker
to ritualize that. Or people returning from
[46:18] military service, they need to do a ritual to
help them kind of enga- even in my work sometimes,
[46:25] the days are hard, like dealing with
kind of, you know, torture survivors,
[46:28] hostages, and also like CEOs and it's
just a very emotionally complex day.
[46:35] Dan: Hmm.
[46:35] Suzan: When I then go to see my kids, I need a
ritual for me to reenter that home life. And so I,
[46:43] before I go back home to see kids, I do a
10-minute walk where I don't think about
[46:47] the day or about what I need to do. It's just,
I actually think about like draining my head
[46:54] from my brain to my toes, and I imagine
just like flowing out and I wait until,
[47:00] it used to be a bucket, now it's a big swimming
pool, until that's full, and then I go back home.
[47:05] And that's my ritual, just to
reintegrate back into my normal life.
[47:09] Dan: For those of us who've just gone through
something hard or who just have, you know,
[47:14] difficult transitions that we need to
make during the day from work to home,
[47:18] how would we even begin to think
about creating rituals for ourselves?
[47:24] Suzan: Hmm.
[47:24] Well, I would say first start, we all have
rituals that we do every day. Personal,
[47:28] professional rituals. Even things like, you
know, birthdays, let's say. My daughter just
[47:33] had a birthday. You take a candle, put it
in a cake. There's no s- like meaning behind
[47:38] a candle or the cake. It's just what we as a
society have said, like, "This is what you do.
[47:43] This is the ritual." We all ha- like think about
any families, family rituals that you might have.
[47:49] So Friday pizza night, Saturday movie night.
What, what do you do on holidays? Um- How do
[47:57] you mark the beginnings or the ends of
things? Like, we have so many rituals,
[48:01] or we used to have. I think we're in a
ritual deficit right now, our society.
[48:06] But rituals are so important
in just regulating all of us,
[48:10] our society. And because they connect
us to other people, they remind us,
[48:15] they embody all of our insights, our values,
our beliefs. So they're really useful for
[48:21] our society in just kind of grounding us in,
in our home of who we know ourselves to be.
[48:28] So if you want to include more rituals
in your personal life, I think,
[48:33] think about where are the transitions in your
life, either the daily transitions or over time,
[48:39] and what do you want to do for those, right? So
I work with college kids. When school is out,
[48:45] the last day of school, do you want to have a
ritual that kind of marks the end of, you know,
[48:52] a good academic year and going into the summer?
[48:54] Dan: Yeah, I had one. It was
a, it was called a keg party.
[48:57] Suzan: Right. Right. And even the keg party,
right, that's binding you with other people. Like,
[49:03] you're bringing them together to all say,
"We're gonna celebrate this together."
[49:07] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[49:07] Suzan: Right? So back to this sense of belonging
and community and being in relation with others.
[49:13] That's the beauty of, of rituals.
[49:15] Dan: I love working out, but one of the
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[49:20] when going to the gym is that we don't
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[49:24] and it's very hard to track it, which
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[50:51] Okay, so what that actually l-
leads to the third friend of winter,
[50:55] which is purpose. So just to reset, you
know, we're, we're talking about these three
[50:59] ways to deal with the non-negotiable
uncertainty and instability of life.
[51:05] The first was working with, you know, telling a
different story, flipping the script. The second
[51:10] was creating rituals for emotion regulation in
the face of life's ups and downs. And then the
[51:16] third is creating a sense of purpose. So what do
you mean by purpose, and why is that so important?
[51:20] Suzan: Yeah, so purpose gives us direction.
[51:23] It's, um, something that's larger than ourselves
of meaning, and I think it's often misunderstood.
[51:30] So many people think that purpose is like a
goal habit or it's achievement or it's passion,
[51:37] but purpose is a thing that guides our actions.
It tells us why we're doing something, what it's
[51:43] all for. It doesn't have to be something large
like saving the world, or it can be something
[51:48] like helping your parent if they have dementia
or raising children, fixing up the neighborhood.
[51:53] It's around being needed. And oftentimes I see
people when they're at their peak of their career,
[52:00] they've already accomplished all the
things, and then they come to me and
[52:03] they say, "You know, I just feel really
dissatisfied. I'm not sure why. I mean,
[52:07] I've accomplished all these things." And
they can still accomplish more goals.
[52:11] All they do is like set a goal, they'll,
they'll reach it. But they'll say like,
[52:15] "I don't feel fulfilled." And that's
because they've lost their purpose. It's
[52:21] not that they have to find it. Most people
are already living out your purpose. So if
[52:26] you think in your life like, where
am I feeling resonant in the world?
[52:31] Like, where do I have coherence? Where am I
just like vibing with the world? Where my,
[52:34] my thoughts, my actions, my values, they're all
in alignment with what I'm doing. Maybe it's like
[52:40] you're in the flow of something. That's gonna
give you some signal to where your purpose is.
[52:45] So maybe it's someone at work who's like working
on a, a meaningful project, or it's when you're
[52:50] volunteering at your kid's school and you're
just like, "You know, this feels really right."
[52:54] That's a signal to your purpose. And
then we can ask ourselves, you know,
[52:58] sometimes our purpose is through a corrective
experience. It's needing to repair something of
[53:04] the past. Also not uncommon to have someone
who grew up in like relative poverty and
[53:08] their life's work is working for like a
very mission driven organization, right?
[53:13] It's like we're trying to repair
something we didn't get in our childhood.
[53:18] Dan: Hmm.
[53:18] Suzan: You know, the, the person who grew
up with very critical or unemotional or
[53:24] emotionally unavailable parents, their
purpose in life is to make sure that
[53:29] their child feels listened to, that
they're attuned to their kids, right?
[53:34] That's their life purpose. It's this corrective
experience. And then we can ask ourselves Well,
[53:39] gosh, who do we matter to right
now? And if we answer that,
[53:42] that's probably telling us something about our
purpose. And if that's not who we want it to be,
[53:48] we can say, well, who do we want to matter
to? It doesn't have to be one person.
[53:52] It could be a community or a culture. Like,
where do we wanna make a difference? Where
[53:58] am I needed in the world? And I tell you
that especially for older adults who are
[54:06] dealing with the loss of the structure of
being needed, like in a job, let's say,
[54:13] or the grandchildren have grown up
now and they don't need them as much,
[54:19] it can be very, very hard to lose that
structure of meaning and of being needed.
[54:25] And so when we can insert that and say, "Okay,
[54:27] where are you needed?" I have seen
that save a life, right? Huh. That
[54:32] really can be so powerful- Huh. Just to say
like, "You are needed. You belong here."
[54:37] Dan: I would... I'm sure everybody watching
or listening is doing what I was doing while,
[54:44] uh, listening to you speak, like trying to
figure out Based on my childhood wounds and,
[54:52] uh, where I feel most aligned and in flow and, uh,
[54:57] where I matter the most now, like,
what does that say about my purpose?
[55:01] I was just thinking, like, for me, my
childhood wounds are probably... I had
[55:05] very loving parents, but, uh, like,
my most searing memories are, like,
[55:09] my mom's first day back at work when I was
two, which is too young to have memories,
[55:13] but I have a very clear memory of that
day, so I don't know how to explain that.
[55:16] And then also s- tons of trauma around, uh,
being at summer camp and feeling trapped and
[55:23] abandoned. Uh, I needed my parents, and they
weren't there, and I couldn't get out. Mm. Um,
[55:29] and wh- so where do I feel like I matter the most
now, and where do I feel the most energy? Uh,
[55:36] parenting and being kind of like
a connector socially in my world.
[55:44] I have six, seven, eight recurring lunches
and dinners with different groups of friends
[55:49] that I org- that I'm, uh, central to
organizing, some of them around the
[55:54] Dharma and Buddhism and some just bunch of
people I like getting together. And so that,
[55:59] you can pretty much draw a straight line from- Mm
... feeling abandoned, unmoored, uh, disconnected,
[56:07] anxious, to engineering community belonging and
mattering now as a grown-up when I have control.
[56:16] Suzan: Mm-hmm. And that, that's
beautiful. That you... I mean,
[56:20] it takes a lot of intentional eff- I would
assume for you, it, it takes a lot of effort and,
[56:27] um, and energy to say, "I'm going to create
something." Like, "I, I need this." Like, there,
[56:33] it probably didn't just happen that you create
all these communities. And what you've done,
[56:38] it's this ripple effect, so now other people feel
a sense of belonging and a sense of inspiration.
[56:45] Like, "Oh, he's done it. Well, now maybe I
can do that, too." I mean, I- that's what
[56:48] I'm hearing listening to you. I'm like, "Oh,
my gosh. That's brilliant. I wanna do that,
[56:52] too. I wanna have..." And so it's, it
spreads, right? It becomes contagious.
[56:56] Dan: Yeah. I'm, I'm laughing a little
bit because, like, I, people often,
[57:02] people who participate in
these events will often say,
[57:04] "Thank you so much for doing it," and I often
think, "Well, I'm not doing it for you."
[57:10] Right. "I'm doing it for myself." You know?
I mean, I love that you're happy. It's not,
[57:13] I'm not, I'm not actually being an
asshole. But, uh- Yeah ... I don't
[57:16] think I am i- in my head. Uh, but, but I do
feel a little bit of sheepishness because my,
[57:22] I think my initial impulse is, is a kind
of a healthy version of selfishness.
[57:28] Suzan: Hmm. Yeah, and that's, that's fine because
you're not hurting anybody, right? And you're
[57:33] inspiring and supporting other people's lives,
and it spreads this... Like, when you can feel
[57:39] a sense of belonging and It's almost this like
collective agency that, that grows and develops
[57:47] and that spreads across, and that collective
agency helps people find their personal agency.
[57:54] So- Hmm ... it's a win-win for everybody.
[57:56] Dan: Let's see if we can put some fine points
on all of this. Um, or i- it could be just one
[58:02] fine point, but we've, we've walked through some
strategies for dealing with life's uncertainties.
[58:09] Um, I, I believe in your book, you kind of
wrap up by, um, with a chapter that's called
[58:15] Rethinking Resilience, and, and you kind
of lay out your definition of resilience.
[58:21] Maybe that would be a good place for us to close.
[58:23] Suzan: Yeah. So resilience, I think, is often
misunderstood. I think we define it normally
[58:31] as like bouncing back. But in the people that
I work with that have experienced adversity,
[58:36] I always wonder, like bouncing back to what? Um,
so I would define resilience as more engaging
[58:42] with instability, recognizing stability
is an illusion, engaging with instability,
[58:48] and finding a way to engage in the world Even
when the world isn't as we want it to be.
[58:55] And I think my problem with the term resilience
really came from, I used to be medical director
[58:59] of this foster care clinic, um, and it was
a, a clinic for people, children with very,
[59:05] very high needs, so they're in and out
of foster homes, sometimes like s- five
[59:11] or seven placements in one year. And so
it was very emotionally demanding work.
[59:16] There was a lot of staff turnover,
and new staff would come in,
[59:19] and inevitably somebody would say
like, "Oh my gosh, these kids are
[59:22] so resilient." And I could not stand that
term because it makes me question, well,
[59:27] who g- is defining that? Who gets to call someone
resilient, and who is benefiting from that?
[59:34] Because these children are just enduring. They're
just enduring a system and a structure that is
[59:40] not working for them. And when we call someone
resilient, it's almost like we're absolving the
[59:46] system of having to deal with it and having to
manage it. I mean, there was another time early,
[59:51] early in my life when I first started working with
s- uh, survivors of torture, there was one guy,
[59:55] and I, I just said something about
like, "Oh, you're so resilient."
[59:59] S- He became very quiet, and he looked down and
he said, "I'm not resilient. I just didn't die."
[1:00:06] I thought like, yeah, that's actually true.
Like a lot of times we're just enduring,
[1:00:12] and we're just one foot in front of the
other enduring a system that might not
[1:00:16] be the best system for us. So I think
true resilience is when we can actually
[1:00:22] engage with what's really going on at
hand and not lose ourselves within it.
[1:00:26] We stay grounded, we find a sense of mastery,
[1:00:28] and we engage in the world in a
meaningful way through the instability.
[1:00:33] Dan: Before I let you go, we are
experimenting here with a new
[1:00:38] closing segment, and it's called What's
Good. What is something, could be a book,
[1:00:43] could be a play you saw, could
be a movie, uh, that is good.
[1:00:49] You down with this?
[1:00:50] Suzan: Great, yeah. So what's good? So
this is actually easy for me because,
[1:00:54] um, I guess I should define good.
I feel good when I feel loved,
[1:01:00] when I smile. And when I'm inspired. And so
every night I, I call this emotional GPS. I
[1:01:07] hate journaling. I don- journaling is good.
There are lots of studies on the benefits.
[1:01:11] I cannot do it. I'm with you. So instead, every
night I just have these three columns, and I put a
[1:01:19] little heart for feeling loved, a smiley face for,
for, um, something that made me smile that day,
[1:01:24] and then, um, a light bulb for what inspired
me. What made me feel loved is actually,
[1:01:29] um, you know, I have a friend who sent me
a song when they were thinking about me.
[1:01:33] I think that definitely made me feel very...
It was a beautiful song, and that made me feel
[1:01:37] loved. What made me smile, my son, he's nine
years old. He, um, I got him a hoverboard. I
[1:01:43] also make him do chores. So he hoverboards around
the kitchen with a mop so he can- ... mop around.
[1:01:50] And it's so cute when he does it. So that
makes me smile And then what inspires me,
[1:01:56] um, I have a couple of friends who are very
active and they kind of organize protests,
[1:02:02] and I love seeing people live out a moral compass.
[1:02:07] They live out their values. That, to me, is very
inspiring. So those are mine from last night.
[1:02:12] Dan: All right. Uh, I, I like that a lot. I do
this thing where, um, I don't like journaling
[1:02:17] either. I, I, I'm a big believer in it, like
you. I even made a journal with my wife that we,
[1:02:22] uh, sold for a little while. Um, we might
put them back on the market at some point.
[1:02:26] But I just, um, since I write memoirs, I don't
feel like actually journaling also. But I do do
[1:02:32] this thing right before I go to bed. I take a warm
shower, which, uh, he- helps me fall asleep, um,
[1:02:36] and there's some data to show it can help you fall
asleep more quickly. Uh, and I just, while I'm in
[1:02:41] the shower, I just list all the things that I was
grateful for that day, and I find it very helpful.
[1:02:47] But that's not my what's good. So my
what's good is, is, uh, is much less,
[1:02:51] um, grand and profound than yours. It's just a
record that came out recently that I love. And
[1:02:56] just to say, you know, we were talking
about emotion regulation. There's some
[1:02:59] data to show that one way to regulate
emotions, and Ethan Kross has, has, uh,
[1:03:04] the scientist from University of Michigan,
has, uh, talked about this on the show.
[1:03:08] Um, one great way to regulate your emotion
is through music. Um, I, my primary,
[1:03:14] uh, use case for music is when I'm working out.
I like to lift weights or run or whatever, and,
[1:03:20] um, and so I tend to pick, um, uh, high octane,
uh, music. And there's this young woman,
[1:03:27] I think she might be British. Stage
name is Francis of Delirium, and- Hmm
[1:03:34] I think her f- her actual name is Jana Warchach.
Anyway, she's got a new record. It's called Run,
[1:03:41] Run, Pure Beauty, and it's got... It actually
has just a ton of pure beauty in it. It is a
[1:03:46] beautiful... She has a beautiful voice.
She's a really talented songwriter,
[1:03:50] and it's got enough of the,
um, sort of propulsion and,
[1:03:55] uh, aggression that I like for, uh, workout
music, and I highly recommend this record.
[1:04:00] So not quite as profound as, uh, Dr. Song's, um,
[1:04:03] uh, little, uh, nighttime ritual,
but, uh, uh, I like it nonetheless.
[1:04:07] Suzan: Yeah. Well, we have to listen to
it now. I hope there's a segment. Like,
[1:04:10] you have to have a little
snippet- ... or the song.
[1:04:13] Dan: Uh, Dr. Song, uh, you've done a great
job with this. It's really nice to meet
[1:04:16] you. I want to remind everybody
of the name of your book- Mm-hmm
[1:04:19] which is Why We Suffer and How
We Heal. Um, any, do you have,
[1:04:22] like, a website or anything else like
that that people should know about?
[1:04:26] Suzan: Yes, my website is suzannesong.com. It's
[1:04:28] spelled S-U-Z-A-N song.com,
and everything's on there.
[1:04:33] Dan: Awesome. Uh, such a pleasure to
meet you. Thanks again for doing this.
[1:04:36] Suzan: Yeah, thank you so much.
[1:04:38] Dan: Also, a quick ask before I let you go. If
you've got a minute, head on over to danharris.com
[1:04:43] and sign up for my newsletter. It drops in
your inbox on Monday mornings, often a busy
[1:04:49] and stressful time for us. I try to write a short
essay that has a little bit of wisdom, actionable,
[1:04:56] practical wisdom that you can immediately
weave into your life on Monday mornings.
[1:05:01] A lot of people find them helpful, and I hope
you will too. You can sign up at danharris.com.
[1:05:05] It's totally free. Now to the credits.
Thank you so much to everybody who works
[1:05:11] so hard to make this show. Ten Percent
Happier is produced by Tara Anderson,
[1:05:15] Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere,
David Hart, and Hayden Broome.
[1:05:19] Post-production is handled by the great folks
over at Greenhorn Creative, and Nick Thorburn
[1:05:25] of the great indie rock band Islands wrote
our theme. Thank you for listening. Deuces.