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Inspiration

Why Trauma Persists: The Polyvagal Theory Explained

PI
Polyvagal Institute
Oct 28, 2026
10 min read

From Polyvagal Institute

The acute danger passes, but your body doesn't get the memo. Your heart stays elevated, your shoulders tight, your sleep fractured. You're told to think your way out—to rationalize that you're safe now—but the nervous system won't listen. This isn't weakness or willpower failure. It's the persistence problem that launched a revolution in trauma science. Dr. Stephen Porges, who created Polyvagal Theory, spent decades asking a question that separated his work from earlier trauma models: Why doesn't the threat response stop when the threat ends? In his new book, Polyvagal Talks: Clinicians and Scientists in Dialogue with Stephen Porges, he reflects on how that question reshaped the entire field—and how safety and connection became the antidote neuroscience had been missing.

Read · 9 sections

The Limitation That Became a Discovery

Porges arrived in trauma therapy as an outsider. A laboratory-oriented physiologist by training, he got a phone call in the late 1970s from Peter Levine, a somatic therapist who recognized something in Porges's research on the autonomic nervous system that might explain what he was seeing in his traumatized clients. Porges was curious rather than dismissive—a choice that altered the trajectory of his career. As he reflects in the book, "I saw it differently. I saw it as I was curious. I want to learn. And the people were lovely and engaging."

What Porges discovered was elegant and troubling: existing trauma theory could explain the acute response to danger—the fight, flight, or freeze—but not why that response remained locked in the body long after safety returned. "Trauma is really interesting, not because of the acute reaction to a life threat or a traumatic event, but for the persistence of that response." The body seemed to have learned a lesson it couldn't unlearn.

The Third Defense: When the Body Says "I'm Out of Here"

Before Polyvagal Theory's introduction into mainstream trauma therapy, clinicians operated with limited vocabulary. A person was either safe or in fight-or-flight. But Porges recognized a third state that therapists were seeing constantly: immobilization, dissociation, and the dorsal vagal response—what he calls the state where "the body says, 'I'm out of here.'"

This wasn't laziness or passivity. It was a primitive defense mechanism, older and more primal than fight or flight. When the nervous system calculates that action is futile—that no amount of struggling will save you—it initiates a shutdown. The body floods with immobilizing signals; consciousness seems to float away; time distorts. In the past, clients experiencing this were often told they were in fight-or-flight, gaslit by language that couldn't account for their actual physiology. The shame of immobility added another layer of trauma: not only did the body fail to escape, but the person believed they had failed themselves.

When Porges gave a talk at Bessel van der Kolk's Boston Trauma Conference in the late 1990s introducing this framework, the recognition was immediate and transformative. Therapists and their clients suddenly had language for an experience they'd been isolated by. As Porges notes, the feedback he received from clients was profound: "They were saying that the theory helped them survive. It gave them an explanation of an experience or their experiences that they were lost to understand." Understanding that immobilization was a defense, not a failure, shifted people's relationship to their own survival.

The Body as Cohabitant, Not Enemy

One of Polyvagal Theory's most liberating contributions is a reframing of how we relate to our own physiology. Many trauma survivors carry deep shame about their bodily responses—anger at how their body "betrayed" them by freezing, by not fighting, by responding in ways that felt out of their control. This shame becomes its own layer of injury.

But when clients began to understand that "the body was actually functioning on more primitive reflexes to keep them alive," something shifted. Porges describes a movement from hostility to what he calls "a more welcoming" stance toward one's own nervous system. The body wasn't the enemy; it was a system designed for survival operating on ancient code. "When they started to understand that the body was actually functioning on more primitive reflexes to keep them alive, they could shift their own interpretation of their experience." The body had intentionality—not the intentionality of the conscious mind, but the deeper intentionality of a system trying to preserve life.

This reframing matters because shame is often the invisible barrier to healing. If you believe your body failed you through weakness, trauma gets compounded by self-blame. If you understand your body was doing exactly what evolution designed it to do, there's room to move from hostility into curiosity about what it needs.

The Geography of Trauma Therapy: A Laboratory Scientist Learns to Stay

Porges's journey into trauma therapy reveals something about the difference between intellectual contribution and genuine collaboration. Most academics, he notes, "fly in, give their talk, and get out of there as quickly as possible. Their time's valuable." But Porges stayed. He attended conferences on both coasts—the East Coast and West Coast trauma communities had different cultures, different emphases—and he remained engaged with clinicians, therapists, and their clients.

This decision to stay, to listen, to let his ideas be tested and shaped by people working directly with suffering, became central to how Polyvagal Theory evolved. Peter Levine brought him into the somatic therapy world in the late 1970s. Bessel van der Kolk and his Boston colleagues shaped the trauma application in the 1990s. Pat Ogden and Allan Shore introduced him to attachment-based approaches on the West Coast. Dan Siegel, who was building his reputation around that time, welcomed him into conversations about how neuroscience could illuminate relational healing. Deb Dana came later, taking the already-formed theory and developing practical tools that clinicians could use daily.

What emerges from Polyvagal Talks is not a solitary genius moment but a sustained collaboration shaped by genuine curiosity and mutual respect. Porges's wife, a renowned scientist who discovered oxytocin's role in sociality, even has a chapter—a contribution born from "all the evenings that we discussed these things." The book is, in Porges's framing, a set of "legacy talks," a record of how ideas move through a community, change in conversation, and deepen through relationship.

Why Thinking Your Way Out Doesn't Work

One of the most practically important implications of Polyvagal Theory is why cognitive approaches alone often fail trauma survivors. The threat system doesn't live in the prefrontal cortex—the part of the brain we use to think and reason. It lives in older brain structures that operate through felt sense, through what the body knows, through the autonomic nervous system's moment-to-moment calculation of danger and safety.

Telling someone to "think their way out" of trauma is like telling your brainstem to use logic. It's the wrong tool. The body needs to learn safety experientially—through consistent, safe connection; through predictable, regulated relationships; through moments where the nervous system can rest and discover that vigilance isn't required. This is why therapeutic presence matters so much. It's why a reassuring voice, the rhythm of a shared meal, the simple fact of being with someone who doesn't seem afraid of you—these become data points that slowly reprogram the threat-detection system.

Connection as the Architecture of Healing

Porges's career has moved increasingly toward understanding how social connection and safety are not luxuries but necessities in nervous system regulation. His wife's influence on his thinking was significant: most scientists were studying "a single subject," but humans are social creatures whose physiology is profoundly shaped by whether we feel we belong, whether we're seen, whether we're safe with others. Oxytocin, the bonding hormone, isn't decorative—it's foundational.

This insight reshapes how we think about healing. Trauma creates isolation—both the isolation of feeling uniquely broken and the isolation of disconnection from others. Healing, then, isn't primarily about processing the trauma or "releasing" it (though those may be part of the work). It's about re-establishing a felt sense of safety in connection. A meal shared with people you trust. A conversation where someone truly listens. A therapist's calm presence during difficult material. A ritual, like sitting by a fire with family. These moments are where the nervous system gradually learns that it's safe to be alive, to be seen, to be vulnerable.

Resilience Requires Recovery

Porges emphasizes something often missing from popular resilience narratives: the need for actual rest and recovery. Many people have been taught to push through, to "tough it out," to treat their nervous system like a machine that should just work harder. But resilience that doesn't include recovery isn't resilience—it's burnout wearing a good name.

The body needs guardrails. It needs to know that challenge will come, but so will safety. It needs rhythm—periods of activation balanced by periods of genuine rest, where the threat-detection system can finally stand down. This isn't weakness; it's how the nervous system actually works. A hike with a friend isn't just exercise; it's a nervous system lesson in companionship during mild challenge. The closing ritual—whether that's a conversation, a meal, the reassurance that you'll reconnect—is what teaches the body that safe togetherness is possible.

When Healing Requires More Than Hacks

The contemporary wellness world offers many nervous system "hacks"—breathing techniques, cold plunges, meditation apps—and some of these tools have value. But Polyvagal Theory suggests they work best not as substitutes for safety and connection but as supplements to it. A breathing technique can calm the nervous system in a moment, but it doesn't reprogram the deeper threat-detection system. That reprogramming happens relationally, over time, through the felt experience of safety with others.

This is where shame often enters again. Someone learns a technique, it works temporarily, then stops working—or works differently in different contexts. They blame themselves for doing it wrong, for not being disciplined enough. But the issue isn't discipline; it's that the technique was never meant to do the deep work alone. The deep work requires the nervous system to learn that it's safe to relax, safe to lower defenses, safe to be vulnerable—and that learning happens in relationship.

Where to Go From Here

If you're carrying trauma, the invitation from Polyvagal Theory is this: the persistence of your responses isn't your fault. Your body isn't broken; it's working exactly as it was designed to work. And healing isn't about thinking harder or trying harder. It's about gradually, through safe connection and predictable care, teaching your nervous system that threat has truly passed.

This might look like seeking a trauma-informed therapist who understands nervous system regulation. It might look like prioritizing relationships where you feel genuinely safe—people who don't rush you, who listen, who accept your pace. It might look like creating rituals that signal safety to your body: meals shared with others, conversations that leave you feeling seen, practices that help you rest without shame.

The work is both scientific and relational. Polyvagal Theory doesn't replace human connection—it explains why human connection is the most powerful healing tool we have. Your body is waiting to learn that it's safe. The question is: who will help teach it?

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Transcript

[0:00] I'd learned what the limitation of the

[0:03] theory was. And the limitation was not

[0:06] that it didn't explain the physiological

[0:08] reaction, but the theory as I saw it did

[0:12] not explain the persistence. Trauma is

[0:15] really interesting, not because of the

[0:18] acute reaction to a life threat or a

[0:21] traumatic [music] event, but for the

[0:24] persistence of that response.

[0:26] >> Welcome to Wired for Connection, where

[0:27] we explore what it means to feel safe,

[0:29] to build [music] connection, and to

[0:31] better understand ourselves and others.

[0:33] I'm your host, my name is Travis

[0:34] Goodman. Today, I'm welcoming back Dr.

[0:36] Stephen Porges. Dr. Porges is the

[0:39] [music] creator of polyvagal theory, and

[0:41] his work has influenced how we

[0:44] understand the relationship between the

[0:45] nervous system, trauma, and connection.

[0:47] Our starting point today is his new work

[0:50] called Polyvagal Talks: Clinicians and

[0:53] Scientists in Dialogue with Stephen

[0:56] [music] Porges, which is released on

[0:58] November 10th. So, depending on when

[0:59] you're tuning in, [music]

[1:01] it is a pre-order, or you can grab a

[1:03] copy today.

[1:05] This book brings

[1:06] the conversations that he's had with

[1:08] many colleagues over the years,

[1:09] including Peter Levine, Pat Ogden,

[1:11] [music]

[1:11] Bessel van der Kolk, Deb Dana, and

[1:14] others, and then offers a chance to

[1:16] explore how their ideas have influenced

[1:18] one another throughout the lifespan.

[1:20] [music]

[1:21] And I'm especially interested, and I

[1:22] think you will be too, on how we bring

[1:25] together all these individuals and what

[1:28] becomes possible. And as Dr. Porges

[1:30] shares, the family that is created. So,

[1:33] welcome, and here's my conversation

[1:34] [music]

[1:35] with Steve.

[1:36] >> The book is really about uh my history

[1:39] in moving my science into the world of

[1:42] trauma.

[1:43] >> Yeah.

[1:43] >> So, or rather, I would say uh the

[1:46] invitation from the world of trauma

[1:48] welcomed me me into the world of trauma.

[1:52] And that is a it's a strange place for

[1:56] a a laboratory-oriented scientist. It's

[1:58] just not where they normally end up. Um

[2:01] and so the book, as I saw it, I wanted

[2:03] to leave, and this is kind of a strange

[2:05] term to use, I wanted to have a set of

[2:08] legacy talks.

[2:10] Uh I wanted to have, and we have in

[2:12] since videos and transcripts. The

[2:14] transcripts have become this book. It's

[2:16] a list of people, uh very uh renowned

[2:19] people

[2:21] who have been extremely instrumental in

[2:23] enabling

[2:25] the ideas, meaning polyvagal theory,

[2:28] bringing it into the world of trauma,

[2:30] and explaining it uh

[2:32] to that. And actually uh we can go

[2:34] through those names. They all were

[2:36] instrumental, and I would say welcoming,

[2:39] and they became family. In fact, my wife

[2:41] is a co-author, not a co-author, she has

[2:43] a chapter too. But that's really out of

[2:46] respect for all the evenings that we

[2:49] discussed these things.

[2:50] And uh puts a puts a different view,

[2:53] because she likes to take credit, which

[2:57] is she's welcome to, and probably has a

[2:59] great degree uh a good good rationale

[3:01] for it, of moving me into social

[3:05] sociality, into thinking not merely uh

[3:09] most psychologists and most

[3:11] experimental, let's say, physiologists

[3:14] or psychophysiologists or

[3:15] neuroscientists are looking at a single

[3:18] subject.

[3:20] And [clears throat] her view was really

[3:22] uh we're a uh

[3:24] we're a species the social, and that has

[3:28] a big effect on our physiology.

[3:31] And so that and that she's she studies

[3:34] oxytocin, and she's the renowned

[3:36] scientist who discovered that oxytocin

[3:39] was related to sociality.

[3:41] So it's not like it's a trivial

[3:44] contribution. It's extremely important.

[3:46] And then we have people like Bessel van

[3:49] der Kolk, you know, Bessel is of course

[3:51] quite renowned now.

[3:52] And and Peter Levine, they were

[3:55] basically the Peter was the first one

[3:57] that brought me in. He brought me in the

[3:59] late 1970s.

[4:01] So, he basically found me. I got a phone

[4:03] call and then later met him in

[4:05] California.

[4:06] Uh and said, you know, these ideas that

[4:09] I had on physiology were could help him

[4:12] understand what he was seeing in his

[4:14] clients.

[4:15] And so, brought me into a dialogue with

[4:18] I would say unusual people. Many of them

[4:21] were into somatic therapies, which was

[4:23] really kind of like marginalized back in

[4:25] the cell. I say marginalized, it was

[4:27] outside the realm of traditional mental

[4:30] mental mental health care. He brought me

[4:33] into that world and uh

[4:35] I I found it just intriguing and I

[4:38] actually did a publication on Rolfing in

[4:41] the 1980s trying to show how that

[4:43] impacted on the autonomic nervous

[4:45] system.

[4:46] Um

[4:47] so, it's been an interesting journey.

[4:48] Then after Peter, uh Bessel engaged me

[4:52] and I uh basically gave a talk in the

[4:55] late '90s

[4:56] uh at his uh Boston Trauma Conference.

[5:00] And it basically from his perspective,

[5:02] it changed the world of trauma that day.

[5:05] Um because people started to see this

[5:09] immobilization or what we call in

[5:10] polyvagal terminology a dorsal vagal

[5:13] response

[5:14] as a defense response. And many of the

[5:17] people that experienced this

[5:18] immobilization, dissociation

[5:21] uh were basically told that it you know,

[5:24] they were really in the state of fight

[5:25] flight cuz the uh language that was only

[5:28] available was that either you're safe

[5:31] or you're in fight flight. There was no

[5:34] in a sense uh sentinel trauma reaction

[5:36] or life threat reaction or mortal threat

[5:40] reaction where the body says, "I'm out

[5:41] of here."

[5:42] Uh and so, that brought that into uh uh,

[5:46] basically trauma therapy, trauma

[5:48] explanation. The consequences of the

[5:51] talk with Bessel, and also talks with

[5:54] conferences run in LA that were

[5:56] organized by Marion Solomon, who is no

[5:59] longer with us, but Pat Ogden is, and

[6:03] Pat was my entree into the West Coast

[6:06] attachment therapy, attachment trauma,

[6:10] and that's where Dan Siegel uh was

[6:13] building his reputation, and the two of

[6:15] them were extremely and Alan Shore,

[6:18] who's also

[6:21] in the book in the conversation, they

[6:24] were extremely welcoming to me to be

[6:27] part of this world of trauma. They were

[6:30] curious, and they wanted to be helpful.

[6:33] And I would go to these meetings both to

[6:35] the West Coast and the East Coast, and

[6:37] they have different personalities based

[6:39] on the culture they're in.

[6:41] And I would stay for the meetings, and

[6:44] I'd make this this an important point.

[6:47] Because most academics, when they talk

[6:50] to clinical groups, fly in, give their

[6:53] talk, and get out of there as quickly as

[6:54] possible.

[6:56] Their time's valuable. They they see

[6:58] clinical application as fuzzy, and they

[7:02] basically feel that it's a distraction.

[7:05] So I saw it differently. I saw it as I

[7:08] was curious.

[7:09] I want to learn. And the people were

[7:11] lovely and engaging, and I basically

[7:14] start to learn.

[7:15] And uh so over time, I no longer felt

[7:19] like I was an outsider in the world of

[7:20] trauma. I felt I was contributing and

[7:23] understanding.

[7:24] And the feedback, not merely from the

[7:26] therapists,

[7:27] but from their clients, which I would

[7:29] get emails and stuff, were saying that

[7:31] the theory

[7:32] helped them survive. It gave them an

[7:35] explanation of an experience or their

[7:37] experiences

[7:39] that they were lost to understand, cuz

[7:41] there's so much uh believing that their

[7:44] behavior was being driven by intention

[7:46] or they were being told that. So, in a

[7:49] sense, if their body failed them, they

[7:51] couldn't move,

[7:52] how could that be intention?

[7:55] So, the issue was they started to get

[7:57] understanding that they lived or

[7:59] cohabitated uh or were cohabitating

[8:03] in a body that had intentionality, our

[8:05] conscious brain, and also in lower parts

[8:08] of our brain regulating our uh basically

[8:12] more somatic-related functions, and uh

[8:15] visceral functions. And they started to

[8:18] get appreciation for that. In a sense, a

[8:20] more, let's say, welcoming as opposed to

[8:23] hostility with their body, the anger of

[8:26] basically their own shame and blame of

[8:29] their body. If they could When they

[8:31] started to understand that the body was

[8:33] actually functioning on more primitive

[8:36] reflexes to keep them alive,

[8:38] they could shift their own

[8:41] interpretation of their experience. So,

[8:43] anyway, the book is all about this

[8:45] legacy of putting these people together.

[8:47] And then we have uh

[8:49] uh

[8:50] Gabor Maté, who uh I interacted with uh

[8:54] several for uh well over a decade, but

[8:57] Peter Levine goes back to the late

[8:59] 1970s,

[9:00] Bessel was in the 1990s, and so was Pat

[9:03] Ogden and Allan Schore, and then Dan

[9:06] Siegel in the late '90s, and Deb uh Dana

[9:10] is in the book, and she came in, of

[9:13] course, after the concept of polyvagal

[9:15] theory was already involved in the

[9:18] world, but she was able to take the

[9:20] concepts and develop language to

[9:23] translate the concepts into, I would

[9:25] say, uh

[9:27] uh mental health provider accessibility.

[9:30] >> And and as you think about these

[9:31] conversations over this kind of

[9:33] lifespan, if you will,

[9:35] I I of what you said earlier about this,

[9:37] um, you know,

[9:38] using AI to

[9:41] categorize and see the connection

[9:43] points. And from that lens, I'm curious

[9:46] with all these conversations, the books,

[9:48] you know, the book's obviously

[9:48] completed, and you're sitting with this.

[9:50] I'm wondering what comes to mind

[9:53] like to the surface as a conversation

[9:56] or two that

[9:58] might have influenced, um,

[10:01] how you saw something differently.

[10:04] >> Well, I would say what the conversations

[10:06] gave me

[10:07] was a, um,

[10:10] a

[10:11] uh, let's say a family.

[10:14] You're really describing a family with

[10:17] people that shared with a shared agenda,

[10:19] with a shared curiosity, with a shared

[10:21] compassion for humanity, with a shared

[10:24] desire. Basically trying to make things

[10:26] better and to understand.

[10:28] And so you get a sense of benevolence

[10:31] and and

[10:32] compassion. And so it's

[10:34] kind of can bring [clears throat] tears

[10:35] to my eyes to realize that these people

[10:38] that I walked into from, I would say, a

[10:40] more

[10:41] constrained academic world, which is

[10:43] extremely evaluative. You may not

[10:46] realize that, but it's extremely

[10:47] structured and evaluative.

[10:49] To a world that was now open and curious

[10:52] and just want to be helpful. And for me

[10:55] to make that bridge, to be welcomed into

[10:58] that, uh, without in fact triggering in

[11:01] these people uh, their reactions to

[11:03] their own academic training, which is

[11:05] the professor is always going to be

[11:07] evaluating cuz that's what you're

[11:08] casting.

[11:10] But to share the curiosity

[11:12] uh,

[11:14] of trying to be helpful and to learn

[11:16] from others. So my role was very uh,

[11:18] special in this group.

[11:21] In a sense, my role was to understand

[11:24] what they were doing, to try to, in a

[11:26] sense, uh, take their observations, but

[11:29] now go that next step, and that was

[11:31] innovation.

[11:33] Could I understand what they were doing

[11:35] was now effectively shifting nervous

[11:39] system state.

[11:41] And that's what I basically I would view

[11:43] that as my skill set. And I would say,

[11:46] "Where does that leave us today?" It

[11:48] leaves us in this concept of a polyvagal

[11:50] informed therapist.

[11:52] And what do we know by about that? It's

[11:54] basically the a therapist who looks at

[11:57] their client's face, who listens to

[11:59] their voice, who sees the blood flow,

[12:01] the muscle tone, who sees their

[12:03] physiological state in the observable of

[12:06] their client. And understands that their

[12:09] physiological state is the portal that's

[12:12] going to guide them in delivering the

[12:14] therapy.

[12:16] >> Thinking about that, just shift from

[12:18] this span of

[12:20] being in the family and how the

[12:22] curiosity of authors, researchers,

[12:25] scientists, you know, professors, people

[12:28] um

[12:29] making sense of it and trying to

[12:31] understand them and how one that they

[12:33] invited you in cuz I think that's been

[12:34] part of the story, too. They allowed you

[12:35] to you know, and then you had this

[12:37] curiosity to stay and be part of and not

[12:38] just leave and

[12:39] and the relationships and they have a

[12:42] perspective and they're trying to make

[12:43] sense of it and the theory. It's almost

[12:45] like you guys are all trying to make

[12:47] kind of wrestle with this together

[12:49] and in a generative way.

[12:52] And and and I'm curious now you know,

[12:55] again reflecting on the book and all

[12:56] these conversations up to this point now

[12:58] in your your life like today, I'm

[13:00] curious um

[13:02] how has the theory itself like what

[13:04] what's something you think is maybe

[13:06] changed or evolved since you've seen

[13:08] people apply it?

[13:09] >> Oh. Oh, what I am This actually

[13:12] is

[13:13] very important point. I learned what the

[13:16] limitation of the theory was. And the

[13:18] limitation was not that it didn't

[13:21] explain the physiological reaction, but

[13:24] the theory as I saw it It not explain

[13:27] the persistence. Trauma is really

[13:30] interesting, not because of the acute

[13:33] reaction to a life threat or traumatic

[13:36] event, but for the persistence of that

[13:39] response. And I would say that that

[13:42] triggered my intellectual curiosity for

[13:45] several decades. Now, remember, I'm now

[13:48] if we I'm into the deeply into the

[13:50] trauma world by the late 1990s.

[13:54] And so we're now talking about almost 30

[13:56] years and I was exposed to it 15 years

[13:59] before with Peter.

[14:01] But the issue is I'm in it and what is

[14:04] the question that I I can't answer?

[14:07] Question is

[14:09] why and how? Really it's the how

[14:12] question. How does the body remain in

[14:15] that state? The acute state is clear.

[14:18] That's polyvagal theory. It's beautiful,

[14:21] it's succinct, it's efficient, it

[14:23] explains it. But why stay there or how

[14:26] does the system stay there? So the how

[14:29] is what I

[14:31] basically start to figure out over the

[14:33] past few years and that became the talk

[14:36] that I gave last year at Sentinel

[14:38] Trauma, which now requires

[14:41] areas above that brain stem area

[14:45] controlling polyvagal systems

[14:49] to utilize molecules, basically

[14:52] neuropeptides and this is my wife's

[14:54] Sue's work on vasopressin and oxytocin

[14:58] because what those peptides do is they

[15:00] basically literally

[15:03] block the system into a state.

[15:07] They change it, but they're also

[15:09] involved in the recovery of it. And so

[15:12] what you find out is

[15:14] you don't get out of the trauma cycle by

[15:17] being aggressive with a client.

[15:20] You start understanding that the

[15:22] principles of signals of safety are what

[15:26] soften the innocent circuits or bonds of

[15:30] that persistent

[15:33] traumatic response. I call it now a

[15:36] traumatic autonomic imprint.

[15:39] Or some wording like that. It's an

[15:40] imprint. The body gets stuck into that

[15:43] state. And actually, when you listen to

[15:45] all my

[15:47] expert therapists, they talk about the

[15:50] imprinted types of behaviors, imprinted

[15:53] types of responses

[15:55] that get triggered and then the system

[15:57] knows where it goes. Where it it goes

[16:00] into that state. And that's an imprint.

[16:03] If we think about imprinting coming from

[16:05] animal behavior, think about the duck or

[16:09] the

[16:10] that comes out of the shell and sees a

[16:12] something moving in front of them.

[16:13] >> Yeah.

[16:14] >> That's the mother. It's an imprint. The

[16:16] nervous system is prepared for its

[16:18] survival to follow that. Well,

[16:22] we have a similar thing in us.

[16:24] We have an autonomic imprint when we get

[16:26] that instant dorsal vagal in the gut

[16:29] feeling

[16:30] that is a life threat feeling,

[16:32] it doesn't disappear.

[16:34] It gets triggered. And that's where

[16:36] associations of the triggering and

[16:38] higher brain structures, you get

[16:40] consolidation that get linked to those

[16:43] feelings. So, the question is we can now

[16:46] hypothetically map out how persistence

[16:49] occurs.

[16:51] And we can also map out strategies of

[16:55] how to in essence dissolve those

[16:59] bonds that create

[17:00] that consolidated persistence. And they

[17:03] come it's really ends up being quite

[17:05] simple. It it's ends up saying that the

[17:08] successful therapeutic models work on

[17:12] enabling the body to have windows of

[17:15] opportunities to feel safe. And they

[17:18] like somatic experiencing and Pat

[17:21] Ogden's psycho sensory psychomotor

[17:23] therapy, they're all about the

[17:25] experience of of feeling safe in windows

[17:29] and expanding them. It's titration. And

[17:32] what I've been working on is saying

[17:34] that's all about signaling the nervous

[17:36] system that's safe. And now I start to

[17:39] develop acoustic signaling techniques

[17:42] that allow the body or the body to move

[17:44] into a state of safety. And that's what

[17:47] we were using with the long COVID study.

[17:49] And that's why you start seeing the the

[17:52] profile of symptoms starting to

[17:54] disappear

[17:56] or let's say becoming much more

[17:57] manageable. So let's use the term

[17:59] symptom burden. And what we're dealing

[18:02] with in the world of trauma, like long

[18:04] COVID,

[18:06] is symptom burden. And it's not like I

[18:09] want

[18:10] you know, my voice to be more prosodic

[18:13] or what my heart rate have more heart

[18:15] rate variability or rhythms. We want the

[18:17] symptom burden to be reduced. And once

[18:20] we start looking at the portfolio of

[18:23] what the symptom burden is, we see the

[18:25] architecture of what it is to be a

[18:27] mammal. And now I So, we were talking

[18:30] about what I learned or the history of

[18:33] this.

[18:34] And the history was whenever I start to

[18:37] understand what I learned from being at

[18:39] meetings and being in the world of

[18:41] survivors of trauma, I would make

[18:44] statements like

[18:45] my interactions with survivors has

[18:48] taught me what it is to be a human. Now,

[18:51] I have said that for over a decade, but

[18:54] now I can tell you what that really

[18:55] means

[18:56] to me.

[18:57] >> Yeah.

[18:58] >> It means that the features of this

[19:00] mammalian architecture, we don't have

[19:02] access to it when we are responding to

[19:06] the when we are suffering from PTSD or

[19:10] suffering from chronic illness, we don't

[19:12] have access to our own capacities. Our

[19:15] system is literally set up

[19:18] gatekeepers. It doesn't allow us to be

[19:20] in the states where we can heal

[19:23] physically and where we can be social

[19:26] and where we can even be smart.

[19:28] So, the physiology basically becomes a

[19:31] gatekeeper of entering into these other

[19:33] states and now the question would be why

[19:36] would you have a gatekeeper? Because

[19:38] when you go into those states, you have

[19:40] vulnerability and every trauma survivor

[19:43] trauma will tell you

[19:45] if I am told to relax, open up, I'm

[19:49] going to freak out because I feel

[19:51] vulnerable.

[19:52] So, the issue is it's not that you can't

[19:54] trigger the body. You can trigger the

[19:57] body to be open, but the interpretation

[20:01] of that bodily feeling is different when

[20:04] someone has a traumatic experience. That

[20:06] autonomic imprint says when I become

[20:09] accessible,

[20:11] I'm aggressively going to get out of

[20:12] here.

[20:13] >> What it makes me think of

[20:15] you know, the imprinting

[20:17] I I I'd say the word like blueprints and

[20:19] I'm even thinking of book I've been

[20:20] reading through lately

[20:22] unlocking the emotional brain about like

[20:25] memory consolidation

[20:27] same thing where they talk about that

[20:28] emotional learning implicit learning of

[20:30] like it's a schema that that it's like a

[20:32] mapping you said it it creates a

[20:34] feedback loop so that

[20:35] my body feels this like the interception

[20:38] the danger the threat therefore it says

[20:39] okay it's not safe and so it creates

[20:41] this feedback loop. I always think of

[20:43] like predictive text like the brain is

[20:44] working ahead or the body the like well

[20:47] it's predicting the problem is it gets

[20:49] stuck in that loop the trauma loop or

[20:51] this you know, burden loop um

[20:54] and we don't know how to actually get

[20:55] out think our way out of it cuz you

[20:57] can't

[20:57] >> You can't think your way out of it. That

[20:59] is the paradox and that is and that is

[21:02] the burden that people think that they

[21:04] are failures cuz they can't think their

[21:07] way out of it.

[21:08] >> Well, then you got shame. Then you got

[21:09] the shame piece, too, of like I'm

[21:10] failure, I'm bad, something's wrong with

[21:12] me, I'm broke, and then that

[21:13] >> See See, you you've heard the script.

[21:16] >> Yes, I know Yeah. And going back to what

[21:17] you said earlier is like I've seen

[21:18] scripts doing this, you know, enough

[21:20] times now, been meeting with enough

[21:22] clients that you start to see these

[21:24] template scripts. And again,

[21:26] >> Okay. So So, this is where you are.

[21:28] >> though, too, you know.

[21:30] >> I I I'd say to a person,

[21:32] >> [clears throat]

[21:32] >> if you do this with arms out, you're

[21:35] allowing your ventral side. How does

[21:37] your client feel in that state?

[21:39] >> Well, I'm sure not so that probably not

[21:41] so

[21:42] >> the issue is

[21:42] >> Because I see clients do this a lot.

[21:44] >> Well, [clears throat] what they'll tell

[21:46] you is

[21:47] they they have to do this.

[21:49] >> Right.

[21:50] >> And they because what they're saying is

[21:52] what appears to be accessible to to me

[21:55] or to you

[21:57] is vulnerability to them.

[21:59] And that means it's not the

[22:01] physiological state, it's what their

[22:03] body now has labeled that state, and

[22:05] that becomes that imprint.

[22:07] >> Right.

[22:07] >> And that is the complicated part because

[22:10] we think we can just put people into

[22:12] those states.

[22:14] They don't want to be in those states.

[22:15] That's what we don't understand. Yet,

[22:18] they want to hack it. They want to get a

[22:20] vagal nerve stimulate to put them into

[22:22] that state when their body will say,

[22:26] "Don't want to be there."

[22:27] >> Or yeah, that yeah. That's I think one

[22:28] thing I'm seeing as of late is some of

[22:31] the the hacking

[22:33] Um and I say that with quotes cuz I'm

[22:35] not knocking I think things can be

[22:37] helpful and useful. I've seen them be

[22:39] helpful and useful.

[22:41] But I think it's person context

[22:42] dependent and being curious about what

[22:44] is really going on and does this really

[22:46] help you cuz you can't hack your way out

[22:48] of it. I think of a client of mine,

[22:50] they have this pressure to like, "Okay,

[22:52] this week I want to get all these things

[22:54] processed and all the trauma of this."

[22:56] I'm like, "I hear you."

[22:57] >> Wow.

[22:58] >> You know, like they they By the end of

[22:59] the week it must be all done. I'm like,

[23:01] "What is this about? Like what is" I

[23:02] it's a Personally, I think it's a

[23:04] survival part of them, protective part

[23:05] that's trying to

[23:06] to like control how they heal. I have to

[23:10] slow them down often say, "What Tell me

[23:11] what's going on? Like, help me

[23:12] understand this pressure and the and

[23:16] shame and everything."

[23:17] >> If you go back a few minutes back in the

[23:19] in the dialogue, you talked about

[23:21] predictability.

[23:22] >> Yep.

[23:23] >> And the issue is predictability is a

[23:27] metaphor of safety.

[23:29] >> Oh, yeah.

[23:29] >> Now, for a lot of people, but for other

[23:31] people, violation of predictability in a

[23:35] safe environment is an amusement park.

[23:40] >> [laughter]

[23:41] >> So, and some people that's another

[23:42] predict you know, projective test. Do

[23:45] you like roller coasters?

[23:46] >> I I used to as a kid. Now, I'd get sick

[23:48] on roller coasters. I can't go anywhere

[23:50] near them.

[23:51] >> [laughter]

[23:51] >> Well, I went on every ride with the

[23:53] kids. That's what I did. So, that was

[23:54] the parent bonding. But, my wife didn't

[23:56] go on all the rides. She went on some.

[23:59] Uh [snorts] but, the issue on the I it's

[24:01] I like the metaphor of the guardrails.

[24:04] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[24:05] >> Uh let's say a Disney amusement park

[24:08] versus a county carnival. You know, you

[24:11] know that the the guardrails are there.

[24:13] So, now you can say I'm going to be I

[24:15] know I'm physically safe. Now, can I

[24:18] experience that visceral feeling of

[24:20] literally falling out of a 10-story

[24:22] window.

[24:23] >> Right.

[24:24] And that's the hard because they got to

[24:25] trust that the the the guardrails are

[24:27] there. And that might take time to

[24:30] relearn Oh.

[24:32] >> But, the relearning is the processing of

[24:35] visceral [clears throat] experience.

[24:36] >> Yeah, yeah.

[24:37] >> And that's where titration or let's say

[24:40] transitory bits. I visit it and then I

[24:43] can come back to it. I can't stay there

[24:44] very long.

[24:46] >> Yeah.

[24:46] >> So, so what let's let's roll back to to

[24:49] the book and the journey for a few

[24:51] moments.

[24:52] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[24:53] >> And because the issue of that is most

[24:56] people read uh let's say the

[24:59] read many of the people that are

[25:02] in the book in terms of our

[25:03] conversations are quite prolific in

[25:06] terms of writing books on trauma and and

[25:10] [clears throat] adversity. And the issue

[25:12] that a lot of people always curious is

[25:14] who are these people? You know, how do

[25:16] they interact? What are their feelings?

[25:18] What is their journey been? And part of

[25:20] what I want to do, I want to share my

[25:23] journey because my journey journey is

[25:25] not that of being alone on a journey. It

[25:28] is a journey with many other, I would

[25:30] say, family members. And it's uh

[25:34] kind of a a beautiful journey when you

[25:35] have friends and colleagues that you've

[25:38] met along the way

[25:40] who share what you want to do.

[25:42] >> I think that is an incredibly important

[25:45] >> Yeah, what I learned though, I learned I

[25:47] learned about, I would say, brilliant

[25:50] therapists, how they deal with people

[25:52] who are compromised. And I also learned

[25:56] that my skill set may not I'm not a

[25:58] therapist, but my skill set may have

[26:01] been,

[26:02] let's say, serendipitously directed in

[26:04] the right place cuz how I think. And I'd

[26:08] like what what they started to talk

[26:10] about me when I would be introduced as a

[26:12] scientist with the heart of a clinician,

[26:15] which I appreciated. But what I really

[26:18] want to say about that was I may have

[26:20] the heart of a clinician, I may not have

[26:23] the patience of a clinician. So, in a

[26:26] sense, the ability to to be supportive

[26:30] under adverse situations. So, we have

[26:34] our own skill set and we kind of like

[26:36] make it work in this complicated issue.

[26:40] And those of us who have, I'd say,

[26:42] tiptoed or fell into the world of trauma

[26:45] realize that it's a big world. And there

[26:49] are a lot of people that are in pain.

[26:52] And a lot of people's pain

[26:54] still is not acknowledged and not

[26:57] acknowledged in I would say a

[26:58] compassionate appropriate way. They

[27:00] still feel embarrassment and blame or

[27:03] shame. And so, I feel that it's you

[27:08] know, like

[27:09] a society that could cure cancer,

[27:12] you know, that gets people excited.

[27:15] But, a society that could structure

[27:17] itself

[27:19] to basically mitigate and ameliorate

[27:22] trauma is not discussed.

[27:25] Uh and whether we talk about hospital

[27:28] settings or educational settings or

[27:31] family structure or even religious

[27:33] institutions,

[27:35] and we start understanding

[27:37] what all these vectors or let's say

[27:41] social media, these vectors, and now

[27:44] we're discussing AI, these are vectors

[27:47] that impact on our nervous systems. And

[27:50] they have like I'm going to use the term

[27:52] a predictable impact. And we need to

[27:55] really understand that to make the world

[27:59] better. And making the world better is

[28:02] not taking away challenges, it's not

[28:05] taking away threats, it's taking away

[28:08] the probability of injury.

[28:11] And so, in a sense, there's nothing

[28:12] wrong with being challenged, with having

[28:15] demands, but our bodies need to recover.

[28:18] And that's where recovery requires

[28:21] signals of safety. So, it's not in a

[28:24] sense laziness. We don't want to take

[28:27] away all the challenges. Challenge,

[28:30] which is not life-threatening, is

[28:32] healthy in a nervous system that is

[28:34] resilient. And we have to understand

[28:37] that everything is about flexibility and

[28:39] resilience. That's what we need to be

[28:41] building. Totally agree. I'm thinking of

[28:43] a It's not just it

[28:45] We need We need the healthy stress

[28:47] because it's that pushing ourselves and

[28:49] not just ourselves in isolation, but

[28:50] within relationships. Pushing together

[28:52] to to overcome a a difficulty, an

[28:55] obstacle. Actually, there's a relief

[28:57] there. There's a connection point there

[28:58] of like, I can do hard things, and that

[29:00] feels good.

[29:01] >> Yeah.

[29:02] >> It's the [clears throat] very

[29:03] >> So, you know what you just described?

[29:05] >> Mhm.

[29:05] >> Team sports.

[29:06] >> Yeah, totally. Totally. Um, you know,

[29:09] well, I think of even doing hard things

[29:11] with my buddies. We'll do like hard

[29:12] hikes and tough runs together. It's like

[29:14] you you you you're encouraging each

[29:16] other to keep pushing and you feel good

[29:17] like, I did this thing that I maybe a

[29:20] moment ago struggled to think I could do

[29:21] or complete, and I did it.

[29:24] And I'm not alone. I'm with with a team,

[29:26] and

[29:27] we get this shared experience of

[29:29] connection of

[29:31] feeling safe. You know, all those things

[29:32] happen.

[29:34] And I love that. Even when I see my

[29:35] kids, it's like helping them push,

[29:37] knowing that I'm with I'm there.

[29:39] Like, I'm the guard going back, I'm the

[29:41] guardrail. Like, I'm not going to let

[29:43] you, you know, get traumatized, you

[29:45] know, get injured and stuck. It's like,

[29:47] I'm there to keep you safe

[29:50] and encourage you while also letting you

[29:52] struggle to grow and do the hard thing,

[29:54] cuz it I know it's going to build your

[29:55] sense of

[29:57] safety, confidence, and self in the

[29:58] relationship.

[29:59] >> So, I'm going to ask you the question.

[30:01] After you do your things with your

[30:03] friends, what is what happens next after

[30:06] the long hike or long bike?

[30:08] >> Well, usually it tends to then we slow

[30:11] down and have we talk and get food. So,

[30:14] more of like a venture

[30:15] >> Get food and beer or something like

[30:17] that.

[30:17] >> Yeah, yeah. Talk and laugh and hug and

[30:20] >> Okay, so, what are you using? What

[30:21] system are you using now?

[30:23] >> Social engagement system.

[30:24] >> And that's extremely powerful in

[30:27] shifting the state from being a

[30:29] mobilized state, and now you're creating

[30:32] visceral feelings of what we'd call

[30:34] social bonding,

[30:36] safety. So, you can actually see there's

[30:39] a time course. It's not like I've done

[30:40] this bit, and off seeing you in 2 weeks.

[30:43] You You have a closing ritual.

[30:46] And the closing ritual is extremely

[30:49] polyvagal.

[30:50] >> It's a It's like a good It's like the

[30:51] It's the social engagement imprint or

[30:53] the eventual imprint versus the

[30:55] traumatic imprint.

[30:56] >> yeah, but let's say it's coming back

[30:58] home imprint.

[30:59] >> Oh, I like that even better. It's coming

[31:00] back home to Yes, it's coming back home

[31:03] and and I love those moments. Um person-

[31:05] love them. Love them. Love them. Um

[31:08] and as as we kind of come wrap up, I'm

[31:10] thinking of with all everything that

[31:12] you'd reflecting on all these

[31:13] conversations and over the years and

[31:16] kind of the span and where we are now,

[31:19] I'm I'm curious like what is a like a

[31:21] pursuit or the next unanswered question

[31:23] given everything up to this point that

[31:27] you're like, I want to keep pursuing

[31:28] this.

[31:29] >> Well, it's not pursuing the unanswered

[31:32] question. I'm really saying

[31:34] I'm actually coming up with a literally

[31:37] a portfolio of how to deal with

[31:39] unanswered questions.

[31:41] So, it's kind of like the toolkit.

[31:43] And so, it's a toolkit that is is

[31:47] clearly defines what it can be used for.

[31:51] So, the issue is everything looks like

[31:53] what's it If you have a hammer,

[31:54] everything looks like a nail. The issue

[31:56] is that the toolkit is saying all the

[32:00] features that get disrupted

[32:03] when our physiology shifts into a state

[32:05] of threat

[32:07] are manageable

[32:09] if we have the right tool.

[32:10] And that means that if we have the right

[32:13] tool, we support health, growth,

[32:14] restoration, and our ability to be

[32:16] social. Because being social is also

[32:19] part of the feedback.

[32:22] We can be social only when we are in

[32:24] that state. But being social helps us

[32:27] maintain opportunities to be in that

[32:30] state. So, the issue is can I

[32:32] conceptualize

[32:34] the portfolio

[32:36] of situations or conditions and can I

[32:39] identify the toolkit that can be used

[32:42] that can be scalable so that it becomes

[32:45] part of how we function as a society. So

[32:48] I'm trying to think about how do I get

[32:50] this in First I'm trying to now define

[32:55] the

[32:56] range because we get into really trouble

[32:58] when

[32:59] everything when people see that what

[33:01] you're trying to do they think it's

[33:03] everything. Well, it's not everything.

[33:07] You ask a person who suffers from PTSD

[33:10] if it's everything.

[33:11] It may be as something as simple in

[33:13] their mind as I would love to be held

[33:16] safely in the arms of another, but you

[33:18] know, I can't. My body doesn't allow it.

[33:21] >> [snorts]

[33:21] >> So but when we start understanding that

[33:24] response it's not merely not being held

[33:27] in the arms of another. It's a whole

[33:29] array of physiological state shifts that

[33:33] result in supporting a different

[33:37] a configuration of behavior. And that

[33:39] portfolio that that toolkit

[33:44] the portfolio is the paper I'm working

[33:46] on now. So

[33:49] it's in revision

[33:51] and when I get off this I go back to it.

[33:54] >> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[33:55] >> And the point is that that tells you the

[34:00] the realm or the arena.

[34:02] And then the treatment models have to

[34:04] deal with you. It's like prosody. It's

[34:07] like somatics. It's like oxytocin. It's

[34:10] like vagal nerve stimulation. It's like

[34:12] singing. It's like being with friends.

[34:14] You start understanding the vectors that

[34:16] go into that architecture, the

[34:18] nourishment to it. And we have certain

[34:21] basic principles that we've known

[34:23] through I would say the human history of

[34:26] humanity and even beyond humanity. When

[34:29] you want to as it says make a pet feel

[34:31] at home

[34:33] you talk in a softer voice. You make

[34:35] sure there's food. You do this

[34:38] engagement behavior and you use

[34:40] ingestion

[34:42] to get the nervous system primed. And so

[34:45] we have to go go back. So we had this

[34:47] little conversation about the history of

[34:49] humanity. And part of

[34:52] breaking bread at someone's in sense

[34:55] having meals with others was extremely

[34:58] important. And the concept of of

[35:00] inviting strangers in, the nomadic

[35:03] worldview of basically when you're in

[35:06] someone else's tent, you everyone is

[35:09] safe. There's no aggression.

[35:11] Uh this whole notion of ingestion and no

[35:14] aggression as having boundaries for it.

[35:18] And we don't even think about it. We

[35:19] look at restaurants. Restaurants are so

[35:21] noisy.

[35:22] >> Right.

[35:23] >> People can't relax. And so people think

[35:25] that the noise is part of having fun.

[35:28] It's merely part of not experiencing

[35:31] these other attributes of interaction.

[35:34] >> My wife would totally agree with that.

[35:35] >> [laughter]

[35:36] >> The noisy restaurants. I would too as

[35:38] I've gotten older. It's I can't hear. I

[35:40] want I want a quieter. I actually I want

[35:43] to be by a fire is where I want to be at

[35:45] night and like that's my favorite talks

[35:46] with my family is sitting by a fire and

[35:48] it's like

[35:49] and talking and we we do

[35:51] uh little backyard fire pit. We'll sit

[35:53] in that my boys and my daughter will

[35:54] just watch the fire [clears throat] and

[35:55] talk and it's like I love that. It's

[35:57] much easier to pay attention to them and

[35:59] have them under

[36:01] >> Yeah.

[36:01] >> noisy restaurants.

[36:03] >> Lovely. Sounds lovely.

[36:04] >> Well, Steve, thank you so much and

[36:08] I am so excited for the upcoming

[36:09] articles and what you're doing in the

[36:11] toolkit and

[36:13] yes, to have this book and again, if

[36:15] you're watching now, this might the book

[36:17] may be out and then you could order it.

[36:19] If you watch before the release date,

[36:21] then you could pre-order it. But Steve,

[36:24] thank you and uh

[36:26] blessings to your work and all that

[36:27] you're [music] doing for us. Thank you.

[36:28] >> Thank you very much. Enjoyed the

[36:29] conversation with you. Thank you.

[36:31] >> Thanks for listening to Wired for

[36:32] Connection, [music] a Polyvagal Podcast

[36:35] produced by Polyvagal Institute. New

[36:37] episodes of this podcast are published

[36:39] monthly. Follow Polyvagal Institute on

[36:41] social media to [music] learn more about

[36:43] upcoming guests and episode release

[36:45] dates. To learn more about Polyvagal

[36:48] Theory and support PVI on their mission

[36:51] to create a safer and more connected

[36:52] world, [music]

[36:53] visit their website at polyvagal.org.

PI
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Polyvagal Institute

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Explore Topics
Polyvagal-theoryTrauma-nervous-systemNervous-system-regulationSomatic-therapyConnection-healing

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

The threat-detection system operates through ancient brain structures that learn through felt experience, not logical reasoning. Your nervous system needs repeated, embodied experiences of safety—through stable relationships, predictable care, and physical calm—to gradually reprogram the default threat response. This is why thinking your way out often doesn't work.
Immobilization is a third survival defense—beyond fight or flight—where the nervous system initiates a shutdown when it calculates that action is futile. This isn't passivity or weakness; it's a primitive survival mechanism where the body essentially says 'I'm out of here' to preserve what energy remains.
Many trauma survivors feel shame about their body's immobilization response, interpreting it as personal failure. Understanding that immobilization was a defense mechanism—your nervous system functioning exactly as designed to keep you alive—shifts the relationship from hostility to acceptance, removing a significant barrier to healing.
Breathing techniques and nervous system hacks can calm the system momentarily, but they don't reprogram the deep threat-detection patterns that persist after trauma. Deep healing requires the nervous system to gradually learn safety through relational experience—feeling genuinely safe with others over time.
Humans are fundamentally social creatures whose nervous systems are regulated by relational safety. Healing happens through experiencing consistent, safe connection with others—through shared meals, genuine listening, and the presence of people who aren't afraid of you. These moments teach the nervous system that vulnerability and togetherness are possible.
Before Polyvagal Theory, clinicians only had language for fight, flight, or safety. The theory introduced immobilization as a legitimate third defense response, giving therapists and clients language for dissociation and shutdown. This shifted how survivors understood their own experiences—from personal failure to nervous system survival strategy.
No. True resilience requires recovery. The nervous system needs rhythm—periods of challenge balanced with genuine rest where the threat-detection system can stand down. Resilience without recovery is burnout.

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