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Inspiration

Strategic Inconvenience: How Convenience Erodes Human Skill

TM
The Mindful Movement Podcast
Oct 17, 2026
7 min read

From The Mindful Movement Podcast

Watch · 7

Picture two radiologists staring at the same scan. The first has spent years reading images and carries a mental catalogue of what normal looks like. The second has grown up alongside a machine that offers an answer before the question is fully formed. Both have access to the same artificial intelligence. Only one of them can reliably tell when the machine is wrong. That gap, between a tool that extends human judgment and a tool that quietly replaces it, anchors a long conversation between host Les Raymond and Dr. Robert Carter III on The Mindful Movement Podcast, built around Carter's book The Convenience Trap: How to Regain Control in a World of Instant Gratification. Carter, a physiologist and former military officer, does not argue that convenience is the enemy. His argument is that convenience chosen by default is the problem, and he offers a remedy he calls "strategic inconvenience": the deliberate decision to keep certain challenges in your life because that is where capability gets built.

Read · 5 sections

What happens when the machine is always the first opinion?

The sharpest idea in the episode arrives at the very start, and it is worth slowing down for. Carter describes experienced radiologists working alongside AI. The software produces an initial read, and the physician combs through it. For the veteran, the pairing works. In Carter's words, as he told The Mindful Movement Podcast: "The radiologist with years of experience, the combination of human intelligence and artificial intelligence was a combat multiplier."

The trouble, in his telling, falls on the younger practitioner. Without an accumulated database of cases, there is no internal reference for what right looks like. When the machine errs, the junior doctor cannot see the error. Carter's account goes further. Even when these clinicians suspected they were correct, they deferred. "They said, 'I think I'm right, but I'll default to the machine.' That's scary," he said on the show.

The lesson travels well beyond medicine. Expertise is not only the ability to get an answer; it is the stored pattern that lets you notice when an answer is off. A tool that spares you the work of building that pattern can leave you holding a result you cannot audit. Carter's example involves critical professions, where a skipped check carries high stakes, but the mechanism operates in ordinary life too: the arithmetic you no longer do, the route you no longer navigate, the meal you never learn to adjust.

Why did a physiologist write a book about convenience?

Carter's motivation was part self-assessment and part family observation. He and his co-author had already published The Morning Mind, which became an international bestseller in 2019. The new book grew from a more personal moment. In 2021, Carter was living in Austin, Texas, during a prolonged loss of power. Afterward, as he recounts it, he told his wife, "Our life has become way too inconvenient." The remark was not a complaint about hardship. It was a recognition of how thoroughly everyday systems depended on electricity and on a supply chain that could be interrupted.

He also points to the household his family had become. He and his wife come from different food cultures; she is from India, and he describes cooking and preparing food as part of the experience itself. After the pandemic, the family drifted into individual orders. His daughter wanted pizza, he wanted Thai, his wife wanted something else, and food "magically showed up." The convenience was real. What it stole, in Carter's account, was the joy of the shared process.

Carter is candid that he felt the effect himself. Tired after work, he says, it was easier to order delivery than to cook. He frames this as the trap: each individual decision is reasonable, and the sum of those decisions quietly removes the rituals that held a family together.

How do you tell helpful convenience from the kind that costs you?

Host Les Raymond raised the central paradox early in the conversation. Convenience frees time, and time may be the most important resource people have. But freed time can go in very different directions. For one family it means cooking together. For another it means an hour of scrolling on the couch. The tool does not decide; the user does.

Carter's test, which he offers through a dishwasher example, is about what you are actually receiving. "If I never wash a dish again in my life it won't impact me," he said. Washing dishes is a chore whose only real purpose is the output: clean plates. Nothing important is lost when a machine handles it.

Grocery shopping is different, and this is where his thinking gets distinctive. He explained that walking into the store is one of the ways he gets his steps in. If a drone delivers the milk, he gets the milk but loses the walk. "The output is I got the milk, but the overall input to my overall health and well-being is lost," Carter explained. The question to ask of any convenience, then, is not only whether the task got done but what else disappeared along with the effort, whether that was physical activity, a conversation, or a skill.

He also draws on the physiology he knows best. Capacity is built through regular activity, and he noted that the research he cites points to the value of integrating activity into daily life. The pattern he describes is familiar: a gym membership bought as a gift or a New Year's resolution, abandoned within months because it demands a separate block of time. Movement woven into ordinary errands tends to last because it does not compete with the rest of life. Here, strategic inconvenience becomes a practical design choice rather than an act of self-denial. You do not refuse every shortcut. You decide which friction is doing work for you.

Why does the dinner table matter in a conversation about technology?

Carter returns repeatedly to the family dinner, and his reasons are instructive. He describes a household where everyone is expected at the table, and a call to dinner pulls people together no matter what they were doing. It is, in his word, an anchor. He acknowledges he may tie his identity to that ritual more than he should, and he admits that everyone could order the same meal in theory. The reason they do not is that they value the gathering. Carter also notes that values differ. One person might use new conveniences in ways that serve them well, while another drifts. The point is not a universal rulebook. It is an honest audit of what you care about and whether your tools serve it.

This is where the book's broader argument comes into focus. Independence, resilience, and critical thinking are not abstract virtues. They are habits, maintained through repetition and sometimes through choosing the harder route on purpose. The meal you cook, the walk you take, the calculation you check yourself: each is a small rehearsal for the capacity you will need when the system fails or the machine is wrong.

Where to go from here

Carter's position is measured. Technology is not going away, and the goal is not to reject it. The goal is to use it intentionally while continuing to develop the skills, relationships, and inner resources that make people adaptable. A practical starting point, drawn from the conversation, is to ask three questions of any convenience in your week: what does it actually save, what effort or interaction does it remove along with that cost, and do you still have the underlying ability it might be quietly replacing?

For a fuller treatment of these ideas, read The Convenience Trap and visit theconveniencetrap.com, the site Carter and the podcast point to for his work. Then, the next time the drone or the app offers to spare you the trip, consider whether the walk was the point all along.

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Transcript

[0:00] They found the radiologist that had a

[0:03] lot of historic knowledge. So, they knew

[0:06] what right looks like. They used the AI.

[0:08] They could basically evaluate

[0:12] basically the AI would provide the

[0:13] initial and the radiologist could

[0:15] basically comb through.

[0:18] The radiologist with years of

[0:19] experience, the combination of human

[0:22] intelligence and artificial intelligence

[0:25] was a combat multiplier. But, the

[0:27] younger radiologist without that

[0:30] historical database, they were

[0:32] misdiagnosing. Now, when the machine

[0:35] made an error, they couldn't identify it

[0:37] because they didn't have the database.

[0:39] So, that's [music] the risk.

[0:40] Specifically, when you're in a critical

[0:42] profession and you haven't had to

[0:44] critically think are [music] you

[0:46] if you're just relying on the machine

[0:48] outcome, they've tended to agree even

[0:51] when the machine was wrong, they

[0:54] defaulted. They said, "I think I'm

[0:55] right, but I'll default to the machine."

[0:58] That's scary.

[0:59] >> Dr. Robert Carter, thanks for coming on

[1:01] the podcast today.

[1:03] >> Thank Les. Really, thanks for the

[1:05] opportunity to talk with you today.

[1:07] >> Yeah, man. I'm glad you reached out.

[1:08] There are a couple things in your email

[1:11] that sparked my interest. I know you

[1:12] have a new book coming out, The

[1:14] Convenience Trap.

[1:16] How to regain control in a world of

[1:18] instant gratification?

[1:20] I think that's probably a topic on a lot

[1:23] of people's minds over the last several

[1:24] years. Especially, it seems like

[1:27] every day lately you we hear something

[1:30] that's going on in the world of

[1:33] AI and how it's altering our our lives

[1:36] or infiltrating our culture or society

[1:39] that seems to be offering

[1:42] some form of convenience. And there's

[1:44] probably a part of us all deep down that

[1:46] knows

[1:48] or at least questions like, "What is the

[1:50] price we are paying for this?"

[1:53] Why did you write this book, Rob?

[1:56] >> Yes.

[1:57] So,

[1:58] as I mentioned before, as we were

[2:00] talking, we wrote a book called The

[2:02] Morning Mind, which was released

[2:04] international bestseller 2019. This This

[2:07] continued to do well.

[2:09] In 2021,

[2:11] we were living in Austin, Texas

[2:14] during a period what is now known as the

[2:16] snow big Eden,

[2:17] where we begin to realize that all the

[2:20] conveniences

[2:22] tied to electricity

[2:24] and everything, just keeping just enough

[2:27] food.

[2:28] Once we experienced this prolonged

[2:30] period of where we lost power,

[2:33] I was telling my wife I said, "Our life

[2:35] has become way too inconvenient."

[2:38] Especially we have a 12-year-old

[2:40] daughter that has basically grown up in

[2:42] a world that's been accelerated by

[2:44] artificial intelligence

[2:46] and really exacerbated this idea behind

[2:50] instant gratification. So, that was one

[2:52] of the main reasons. It was really a a

[2:54] self-assessment, but then we realized

[2:57] that this was impacting families and

[2:59] individuals in a profound way.

[3:04] >> Got you. So,

[3:07] was this something that you feel like

[3:10] was negatively affecting you personally?

[3:15] >> Yes, 100%.

[3:18] Specifically,

[3:20] as I continue to integrate various what

[3:23] I would say

[3:25] inconveniences, but we take them in as

[3:28] conveniences. So, everything from

[3:32] uh

[3:33] it's much easier at times if you're

[3:35] tired after work to

[3:37] order Uber, you know, Uber Eats or

[3:40] just order takeout.

[3:44] It's also easy to for each individual in

[3:47] a home to order exactly what they what

[3:49] they want as opposed to going through

[3:51] the process of cooking food,

[3:53] conversation. My wife and I both from

[3:55] come from cultures and from South

[3:57] Louisiana, she's from India, where food

[4:00] and the whole process of cooking and

[4:02] preparing the food uh is is part of the

[4:05] overall experience and we found

[4:07] ourselves post-pandemic

[4:09] my daughter wanting pizza, we order

[4:11] pizza, maybe I want Thai, my wife wants

[4:13] something else and we would have food

[4:15] that just magically showed up and it was

[4:17] really stealing our stealing the joy of

[4:20] the overall experience around food.

[4:23] >> Right.

[4:25] Yeah, I mean, there's a paradox cuz

[4:30] it you know, on one hand

[4:32] um

[4:35] you know, you get that convenience where

[4:36] things are easier, which frees up

[4:40] time, which ultimately you can make a

[4:42] case is

[4:44] the most important resource we have. So,

[4:48] in a sense, we're buying our

[4:50] our time back so that we could do things

[4:52] that maybe we would otherwise do, but

[4:54] that might lead to for some people that

[4:57] might mean you have the time to cook

[4:59] with your family, whereas before you

[5:00] didn't.

[5:02] Uh for some people that might mean

[5:04] you spend more time like doom scrolling

[5:07] social media on the couch.

[5:10] >> [laughter]

[5:10] >> So, you know, it's like it's a tool,

[5:12] could be used many ways, but I'm with

[5:14] you like we have always valued

[5:17] um

[5:19] like dinner time as a family and uh

[5:24] kind of no matter what everybody's doing

[5:26] through the day, there's like a implied

[5:29] like an understanding that we're all

[5:30] going to kind of meet for dinner.

[5:32] Um you know, they'll hear me scream

[5:34] dinner through the house and people will

[5:36] just arrive at the table

[5:38] and it's

[5:40] like for me personally, it's very

[5:41] important. Like that's like an anchor.

[5:44] Um

[5:45] it's I don't know, it might even be to a

[5:47] cost like I

[5:49] link my identity to that process maybe

[5:52] more than I should, but um

[5:56] But yeah, I mean we could in theory

[6:00] order Uber Eats and everybody order the

[6:02] same thing, but I guess we choose

[6:05] because we value that to do that, but

[6:07] everybody has different values. So like

[6:09] one person might use

[6:12] all these new conveniences in a

[6:14] different way than someone else just cuz

[6:15] of like taste and preference and all the

[6:17] individual variability that we have as

[6:19] humans.

[6:21] >> Yeah, and and that's and that's one of

[6:22] the one of the things I use that as my

[6:25] example, but one of when people ask me

[6:29] how do you define

[6:32] where convenience may be negatively

[6:34] impacting your life and and areas as you

[6:37] pointed out that may be enhancing your

[6:39] life.

[6:40] And the example I always utilize

[6:43] is uh utilize often is if you think

[6:46] about washing dishes, using a

[6:48] dishwasher. If I never wash a dish again

[6:51] in my life

[6:53] it won't impact me. It it's truly

[6:55] something that's saving time. You have

[6:57] dinner, throw things into the

[6:58] dishwasher.

[7:00] Because generally speaking, there's an

[7:02] output.

[7:04] As opposed to

[7:06] if I the drone delivers milk. But

[7:10] getting, for example, going to the

[7:12] grocery store is one of the ways that I

[7:15] get my steps in. And I know from a

[7:17] longevity perspective, getting steps in,

[7:19] being physically active, as you know

[7:22] is an important way of building

[7:23] capacity. But if I basically allow

[7:27] technology to get everything

[7:29] to me that generally I would utilize to

[7:32] get at least get some physical activity

[7:34] so I get the milk, but I don't get the

[7:36] steps that I know is going to be good

[7:38] for my overall heart health and my

[7:40] overall physical and mental health for

[7:43] the long term. So, I get the milk the

[7:45] drone delivers, but the reality is that

[7:47] the output doesn't The output is I got

[7:50] the milk, but the overall input to my

[7:53] overall health and well-being is lost.

[7:55] So, then I have to figure out okay, how

[7:58] do I get the physical activity? So,

[8:01] maybe I go to the gym. Well, if I can

[8:03] integrate more of my physical activity

[8:05] into my normal daily life, then that

[8:09] basically becomes a time-saving

[8:11] activity. So, that that's where, you

[8:13] know, we you mentioned before around

[8:15] time, if

[8:17] the research and data shows that if you

[8:19] can build physical activity into your

[8:22] life, it becomes a much more sustainable

[8:25] thing. But, if you have to carve out one

[8:27] or two or three hours a week or more as

[8:30] a separate activity, and it's only thing

[8:31] you're really getting out of it is the

[8:32] actual physical activity, that's

[8:34] generally where people buy the gym

[8:36] membership or they get the gym

[8:37] membership for their birthday or

[8:39] Christmas, and two or three months into

[8:41] it, they say, "I don't have time for

[8:42] this." And so, part of this philosophy

[8:45] is that the more we can basically build

[8:47] in

[8:48] physical activity, build in activities

[8:51] within to within our normal daily life,

[8:53] it becomes

[8:55] easier to support as opposed to a

[8:58] separate activity.

[9:01] >> Got you.

[9:02] It What kind of doctor are you, Robert?

[9:05] >> So, I I am a physiologist. My I have a

[9:08] doctorate in in physiology and a

[9:10] master's degree in chronic disease

[9:12] epidemiology. I received my training as

[9:15] a medical scientist at a medical school,

[9:17] but as opposed to clinical medicine, I

[9:20] pursued a path of of science.

[9:24] >> Okay. So, then

[9:25] what do you mean? Like, what other than

[9:27] writing books, what is What do you spend

[9:29] your time doing for work?

[9:31] >> So, so currently, I serve as as a chief

[9:34] of staff within a military organization.

[9:38] I'm still at I'm actually still active

[9:39] duty. I'm an active duty colonel.

[9:40] >> Oh, okay.

[9:41] >> But and I teach adjunct

[9:45] as in an emergency medicine department

[9:47] at a university and also teach nutrition

[9:51] and and biology at another institution.

[9:54] So, a wide variety of things I'm engaged

[9:57] in and I spend a lot of time doing

[9:58] non-for-profit work as well.

[10:01] >> And what was the other book that you

[10:02] said So, your new book, The Convenience

[10:04] Trap, is not out yet from what I

[10:05] understand, but your previous book, The

[10:08] Morning Mind, that is out, correct?

[10:11] >> That is correct. That is out. It's

[10:13] It's been out since 2019

[10:15] and it's continued It's been translated

[10:17] in 13, 14 different languages

[10:21] and continues to actually

[10:23] do well. You know, it's it's it's a

[10:26] timeless book. I think there's

[10:27] information that we talk about in that

[10:30] book is just

[10:32] is just critical to basically being

[10:35] human. So, the the thesis in that book

[10:38] is what you do for the first hour, 2

[10:41] hours of being awake sets the tone for

[10:45] throughout the day. So, if you start

[10:46] your day off stressful,

[10:49] electronic devices,

[10:52] just not doing the things to prepare

[10:53] your body for the day, and that doesn't

[10:55] have to be an hour or 2 hours, but 15

[10:59] minutes, whatever that routine is,

[11:01] establishing a routine that involves

[11:04] some transition between

[11:06] basically being asleep and being awake

[11:09] is going to basically improve your

[11:10] overall quality throughout the day. In

[11:13] graduate school, we did a lot of

[11:15] research on sleep deprivation, sleep

[11:17] restriction, sleep apnea, sleep

[11:19] disorders, and I continued much of that

[11:22] research early in my military career,

[11:24] and I can tell you fundamentally

[11:27] sleep is important, being awake is

[11:29] important, but that period of time of

[11:32] going from being asleep to being awake

[11:35] plays a critical role in the overall

[11:38] transition. Specifically, if you're

[11:40] startled, if you uh uh

[11:43] uh if you're

[11:44] uh if you wake up due to like a loud

[11:46] noise or some activity and you just jump

[11:49] right out of bed because you're late for

[11:51] work, that's a very different daily

[11:54] experience than actually transitioning

[11:56] smoothly. And so, the book basically

[11:58] goes through that process and and also

[12:00] gets into the science and psychology

[12:03] behind time management.

[12:06] >> Well, say more. I mean, it sounds So, I

[12:08] assume that you spend a lot of time

[12:10] configuring

[12:12] a

[12:14] uh morning routine that leans towards

[12:16] optimizing something about being a

[12:18] human.

[12:20] Like, what do you What are the

[12:21] recommendations, Doc?

[12:23] >> Yes. So, so first of all, the

[12:25] recommendations

[12:27] is something around mindfulness. I

[12:31] actually do a breath-based meditation in

[12:34] the morning. For some people, that may

[12:36] be and also incorporating some degree of

[12:40] movement. And that could be yoga, that

[12:42] could be stretching. We also practice

[12:44] martial arts. So, I'm ages Some

[12:46] mornings, I'll do yoga. Some mornings, I

[12:49] will actually just do my Taekwondo

[12:52] routine. I'll just do some light

[12:55] stretching and I'll go through,

[12:57] especially when I'm preparing for

[12:58] competition, I'll take that time to not

[13:02] generate all the force and power, but to

[13:04] go through the moves. Basically, turn my

[13:07] Taekwondo routine in more of like a Tai

[13:09] Chi, but I'm going through the actual

[13:12] sequence. Also,

[13:14] >> So, wait. You actively compete in

[13:17] Taekwondo?

[13:18] >> I'm actually

[13:20] I'm 53. 53.

[13:22] >> Sweet.

[13:23] >> Yes, and I'm a four-time world champion.

[13:25] know, when most recent world title,

[13:27] uh this past this past summer in in 26,

[13:30] yeah.

[13:31] >> All right, I'll keep my distance.

[13:33] >> [laughter]

[13:34] >> So, I like to I like to say at you know,

[13:36] at 26, I can still do roundhouse kicks,

[13:38] backflips,

[13:40] uh uh aerial cartwheels, and and and

[13:43] that's part of the

[13:44] the lifetime

[13:46] I know guys in their 70s that can still

[13:48] do cartwheels, backflips, that actually

[13:51] train. So, that's an important aspect

[13:54] about I think holistic health and

[13:56] fitness and really staying active

[13:57] throughout your life, not just

[13:59] physically but mentally active as well.

[14:01] And having a morning routine. I think

[14:03] the morning routine is critical. So, the

[14:05] other aspect that that kind of will put

[14:07] me on this path was I wasn't doing that.

[14:10] And again, the Morning Mind, the

[14:12] Convenience Trap has a personal

[14:14] connection. These are not things that I

[14:17] That's theory, it's things that I

[14:18] personally had to put into practice.

[14:21] Basically,

[14:22] in 2010, I deployed to Afghanistan, came

[14:25] back from Afghanistan, I was stationed

[14:28] in Stuttgart, Germany, where I traveled

[14:30] really throughout the African continent.

[14:32] And

[14:34] one day I was in Kenya and I was uh

[14:37] medevac'd back to Germany, where I spent

[14:39] 21 days in the hospital, where I was

[14:42] diagnosed with Crohn's with Crohn's

[14:44] disease and some other weird GI related

[14:48] stuff was going on. I had my appendix

[14:50] removed. So, I was basically faced with

[14:52] a situation where I could potentially

[14:55] have a health condition, chronic

[14:57] condition that would have greatly

[14:59] changed my entire life,

[15:01] as well as potentially limited or or

[15:04] short my military military career. So, I

[15:07] met a holistic doctor in Germany and so,

[15:10] she recommended

[15:12] At that time, I really didn't have any

[15:13] routine.

[15:14] I've had a routine for like probably the

[15:16] last 13 years and we can talk about

[15:19] that.

[15:20] But,

[15:21] she had me first thing

[15:24] again stretch

[15:25] do a little bit of physical activity and

[15:27] the

[15:28] >> This was as a treatment for Crohn's?

[15:30] >> As a treatment because she said we going

[15:32] to prevent you from going on chronic

[15:35] prednisone or whatever the treatment

[15:37] does your was

[15:39] and she said I'm going to have you drink

[15:41] some warm water

[15:43] for the first

[15:45] 40 days. That's the first thing you're

[15:47] going to put in your body just warm six

[15:50] six ounces of water and you're going to

[15:52] wait for 10 I mean for 30 minutes before

[15:55] you put anything else in your body and

[15:57] then I want you to basically have

[15:59] oatmeal of some type of porridge

[16:02] as your first meal and then the next

[16:04] time you're going to eat

[16:06] mainly a plant-based diet

[16:10] around noon. So that became my routine.

[16:12] So I eliminated 50 cups of coffee by by

[16:16] noon

[16:17] and and you know and and all the other

[16:19] things, right? And so that basically and

[16:22] then after the first 30 days she

[16:25] actually had me put turmeric a small to

[16:28] some amount of turmeric in the water and

[16:31] a small amount of honey.

[16:33] And so that I continued to practice

[16:37] um for

[16:39] about a year and then I went back to see

[16:41] my gastroenterologist

[16:44] and I was still stationed in Germany and

[16:46] he

[16:47] walked into the office. I could speak

[16:49] enough German or at least understand

[16:50] enough German that he told his nurse and

[16:52] his assistant that no get me Mr.

[16:56] Carter's file because this is not his

[16:58] file. He has Crohn's. And so he couldn't

[17:01] believe actually and he looked at me and

[17:04] he said what did you do to yourself?

[17:06] >> [laughter]

[17:07] >> And when I when I heard him say that and

[17:09] I was actually having a follow-on

[17:11] colonoscopy I said holy crap. Do I have

[17:14] cancer now?

[17:16] >> [laughter]

[17:16] >> And and lo and behold I had a completely

[17:19] clean colon. And so he was shocked.

[17:22] And so that became really a premise for

[17:26] a lot of things that I've been involved

[17:28] in, specifically research and really

[17:30] getting the message out about healing

[17:34] one's body. And over time I've

[17:37] incorporated, I would say a more more

[17:39] holistic

[17:41] morning routine to include some of the

[17:43] things I described, but again, that

[17:45] wake-up call was the wake-up call for me

[17:49] to change, as my wife described when we

[17:52] when we met, I was a trash can.

[17:55] And so I ate everything all times of the

[17:57] day. I I would eat ice cream followed

[18:00] by, you know, two cans of Coke. You

[18:02] know, basically I consumed whatever I

[18:04] wanted to consume. And that that put me

[18:06] on a path, in addition to Crohn's, I was

[18:09] beginning to develop high blood pressure

[18:11] and as well as um

[18:13] I was probably getting close to being on

[18:15] some type of lipid-lowering medication.

[18:18] >> Gotcha. Well, that's a cool story.

[18:20] Yeah, so you don't really know, I guess,

[18:22] if it was the warm water, or the

[18:24] turmeric, or it was taking out

[18:26] everything else, but the combination

[18:28] seemed to work wonders for you.

[18:30] >> E- E- E- Exactly. And that's why I said,

[18:32] you know, sometimes with science we want

[18:34] to just nail it down to this one thing.

[18:37] I'll tell you, when you look at the

[18:38] immune system and what we refer to as a

[18:41] cytokine storm, it's really um multiple

[18:45] stressors. I

[18:47] I gave a Aspen Ideas talk about about

[18:49] eight years ago, and I talked about the

[18:51] body keeps a score, and the reality is

[18:54] that

[18:56] if you as long as you keep it below

[18:57] whatever your threshold is for something

[19:00] bad to happen, you're probably in pretty

[19:01] good shape. The issue is none of us

[19:04] basically have a crystal ball to look

[19:06] and see what else

[19:09] insult is needed for me to basically

[19:12] enter into a chronic disease state or

[19:15] acute condition that may result in heart

[19:17] attack or stroke. So,

[19:20] basically by making these small

[19:22] adaptations, small changes to your life

[19:25] can result in

[19:27] positive outcomes or at least

[19:30] delay negative outcomes. So, you may not

[19:32] prevent everything bad from happening.

[19:34] It just may be in your DNA or your

[19:36] cards, but I'm confident that you can

[19:39] delay these type of bad outcomes.

[19:43] >> Yeah, we have a lot more control than we

[19:46] think or that

[19:48] um

[19:49] the medical industry wants us to

[19:50] believe. I'd say as a

[19:52] >> Exactly.

[19:53] >> cynic.

[19:53] >> Um

[19:54] >> So, you're still active duty, you said.

[19:56] Is

[19:56] >> I am. Yes.

[19:57] >> So, how long have you been in the

[19:59] service then?

[20:00] >> Uh 26 years. I'm actually

[20:04] um in my final year. I'm going to retire

[20:06] in the next next next 8 to 9 months.

[20:10] >> Well, good for you. So, half your life

[20:11] you've been in the military.

[20:12] >> Half Half my life. Yeah, that that's a

[20:14] good way to look at it.

[20:16] >> [laughter]

[20:16] >> Yeah, it's been it's been a joy. And now

[20:20] I want to return basically some of that

[20:22] control back to my

[20:23] lovely girls, my

[20:25] my my daughter and wife to let them

[20:28] now not have to

[20:31] to give them more of a of a

[20:33] of a choice in the overall

[20:35] decision-making process. So, so that

[20:37] gives us options if we want to stay in

[20:39] Maryland or we want to go go somewhere

[20:42] else, but it's an exciting time for the

[20:44] family.

[20:45] >> Yeah, that's great. Yeah, you mentioned

[20:47] you live not far from me, but didn't

[20:49] know until we basically pushed play

[20:50] here. Um but you're not in Maryland now.

[20:52] You said you're in Texas now working on

[20:55] uh another program you're in that I

[20:57] wouldn't mind hearing more about.

[20:59] Uh project welcome home troops. Am I

[21:02] saying that right?

[21:02] >> Yes, that's correct. That's correct.

[21:05] >> You do a lot You got your hands in a lot

[21:06] of stuff. Talk about that a little bit.

[21:09] >> Yeah, so Project Welcome Home Troops was

[21:11] an an effort around about 20 years ago

[21:15] that was started by some meditation

[21:18] teachers that wanted to do something to

[21:21] give back to returning vets.

[21:23] And so they started the effort in

[21:25] Southern California

[21:26] at a vet center just going in and doing

[21:29] basic body scan and a breath-based

[21:32] relaxation technique working with vets

[21:35] specifically as primarily Vietnam vets.

[21:38] And they realized that there was a need

[21:40] across the country. So they started a

[21:43] project under the association and

[21:46] International Association for Human

[21:47] Values, this project called Project

[21:49] Welcome Home Troops, which in time

[21:51] became its own thing. So it's a free

[21:54] workshop for veterans and their

[21:56] families, active duty service members.

[21:59] It's a three to four-day workshop, two

[22:02] to three hours per day. What individuals

[22:05] not only learn about breath-based

[22:07] techniques, but they do things like

[22:10] like like sharing of their story. And

[22:13] and the overall process helps them

[22:15] decompress and connect with other other

[22:17] vets

[22:19] and and service members. And at the end,

[22:21] they basically leave with a a 20-minute

[22:24] um practice that involves body scan and

[22:27] various types of of breath techniques

[22:30] that help them focus on their breathing

[22:33] and not all of the noise in their minds.

[22:36] And so and then we conduct follow-up

[22:39] workshops

[22:40] um virtually and in person uh once a

[22:43] week depending on the population within

[22:44] the city. City like San Antonio,

[22:47] Washington D.C., you can find there's

[22:50] enough folks that have actually taken

[22:51] the workshop they can get together. But

[22:53] we do have vets obviously. Uh one of my

[22:55] good friends uh Tom lives in the

[22:57] mountains of Colorado, so obviously he

[22:59] dials in virtually. And he was one of

[23:01] the individuals that um

[23:04] that I talked about that we did the

[23:05] Aspen Ideas Festival talk around. So,

[23:09] yeah, that's basically the actual

[23:11] program. It's a a program to help,

[23:14] again, service members decompress. Not

[23:17] only individuals that's been deployed,

[23:19] I've been deployed, others have been

[23:20] deployed, but just sometime time in

[23:22] service can be

[23:24] stressful enough for individuals that

[23:27] it's not just a deployment, it's the

[23:28] overall lifestyle of being in the

[23:31] military, as I described before, on the

[23:33] family. Because we get orders, and then

[23:36] we we move. So, regardless of what's

[23:39] going on with kids or

[23:41] spouses, their friends, maybe the

[23:43] environment that they built that they

[23:45] find safe, we get to pack it up and go

[23:48] somewhere else and re-enjoy that

[23:50] experience. So, Project Welcome Home

[23:52] Troops is just one of the ways to help

[23:54] provide a service and opportunity for

[23:56] folks to mitigate and reduce stress.

[24:00] >> That sounds great, man.

[24:01] >> Yeah, I mean, I thought about that many

[24:02] times over the years, like how

[24:04] well, two components there. I mean, one,

[24:06] the act of coming home and reintegrating

[24:09] into

[24:11] I don't know, whatever you would call

[24:12] like normal

[24:14] life, society, whatever, after

[24:16] especially after like a wartime

[24:18] deployment. It's It's [clears throat]

[24:20] hard to imagine

[24:22] what that

[24:25] like

[24:26] how that

[24:28] unfolds within the mind of a human. And

[24:32] all the things to juggle and try to make

[24:35] sense of, and

[24:37] the interplay between

[24:41] the cognitive side, where you're like

[24:44] mentally just trying to think about

[24:46] something a certain way,

[24:48] and the interpretation of the nervous

[24:52] system more deeply from whatever

[24:55] traumatic things that were experienced,

[24:57] whether it's their scene or

[24:59] you know, things that you're stuck

[25:00] living with, maybe that you've done that

[25:02] whether you regret or you feel bad about

[25:05] or they're just things that you were

[25:06] following orders and they're just really

[25:07] hard to hold

[25:09] over time and I mean it's great that

[25:12] there's more and more tools emerging to

[25:15] help folks come back. But also you make

[25:18] a good point about like the family and

[25:20] how

[25:22] like I live in an area where there's a

[25:25] a lot of transient families because of

[25:29] um

[25:31] military related stuff or like I live

[25:34] not far from

[25:36] National Security Agency, is that what's

[25:39] called? NSA? Where there's just

[25:41] a lot of people grew up here because

[25:43] their parents were moved here coming to

[25:46] and you hear a lot of stories over the

[25:48] years of

[25:49] kids that really

[25:52] didn't

[25:53] didn't have a place to really call home

[25:55] for very long.

[25:57] And and that's really a new phenomenon.

[26:00] I mean you don't have to go far back

[26:01] before

[26:03] we didn't have airplanes and train like

[26:05] where you didn't have transportation in

[26:07] a way that you could just motor around

[26:09] easily. Like people generally stayed

[26:12] pretty close to where they were born

[26:14] their whole life. There's something

[26:15] hardwired in their DNA that probably

[26:17] finds that comforting where your home is

[26:20] a really a long-term home.

[26:23] Your village or whatever.

[26:24] And you know, there's a lot of people

[26:26] out there that have been hopping around

[26:29] due to like military life and um

[26:32] you know, that's that's got a way on a

[26:34] kid, kids ability to find a way to fit

[26:37] in with friends at school or whatever

[26:38] when it's when there's like turnover.

[26:42] So um

[26:44] yeah, I mean there's a lot to consider

[26:46] in that lifestyle.

[26:47] >> Yeah, and and again it's it's part of

[26:50] the connection in the identity.

[26:54] And I think what you just described is

[26:55] one of the reasons why

[26:57] a greater percentage of a adult

[26:59] Americans report being lonely.

[27:03] Is that whole sense of community

[27:06] if someone asked me, "Where are you

[27:07] from?" I said, "From Lake Charles,

[27:08] Louisiana."

[27:10] If you ask my daughter, she she'll

[27:12] probably say, "I was born in San

[27:14] Antonio."

[27:17] And we've lived a lot of different

[27:18] places. So, for her, she doesn't have

[27:20] that connection. You ask my wife, she

[27:22] would say, "I'm from Pune, India." And

[27:24] so, having that connection, that sense

[27:26] of of family, basically

[27:30] and identity plays an important role in

[27:33] confidence and all the other aspects.

[27:35] And that's one of the things we want to

[27:37] make sure amplified so we have an

[27:38] opportunity to do that, provide that for

[27:40] my for my daughter.

[27:42] And that actually brought about

[27:46] the one of the main features in our new

[27:48] book.

[27:51] From the morning mind to the convenience

[27:53] trap, we built this framework basically

[27:56] based on

[27:57] workshops that we participated in. My

[28:00] wife's a physician, and just over time

[28:03] we begin to recognize that

[28:07] one of the things that we

[28:10] experience really as a family

[28:13] was convenience. And then, moving

[28:16] towards the concept of strategic

[28:17] inconvenience, we developed this

[28:19] framework called alive, which is uh to

[28:22] activate, level up, integrate, value,

[28:25] and embody.

[28:27] And so

[28:27] >> Say that again.

[28:29] >> Yep. So, activate awareness, level up,

[28:33] integrate, value what returns, and then

[28:36] embody. And the embody basically is

[28:39] where now that is

[28:41] the new you.

[28:43] You've connected that to your DNA. I

[28:46] mean, that is that is you. It's an

[28:48] epigenetic phenomenon where you truly

[28:52] have whatever

[28:54] you had lost, you now have gone through

[28:57] that process and you recognize I never

[29:00] want to lose this again.

[29:02] And so, that is

[29:05] happens

[29:07] at the level of the mind and and within

[29:09] the body. And because ultimately you

[29:12] recognize that whatever

[29:15] I thought was convenient really wasn't.

[29:18] And now that I've gone through that

[29:19] process and I've built that capacity

[29:22] back into my life

[29:24] I do not want to return. And for some

[29:27] people that could be

[29:29] my my father passed away last year, but

[29:32] he went through that process um with

[29:34] alcohol.

[29:36] And

[29:37] and he took this workshop Project

[29:39] Welcome Home Troops

[29:40] uh with us in his late 60s.

[29:44] And he used

[29:46] Although at the time we didn't call it a

[29:48] live framework, but that really what it

[29:50] was.

[29:52] In this book we defined it and we

[29:54] defined it prior to then, but it's

[29:56] really being alive, you know. So, not

[29:58] whatever that inconvenience is you

[30:02] you're able to basically whatever that

[30:04] what is convenience what appears to be

[30:06] convenient but is actually still in your

[30:09] life or taking away from who you are at

[30:13] core and reducing your capacity capacity

[30:16] to function, but it also capacity to

[30:18] live your full potential life, your full

[30:21] life potential.

[30:22] Um is is something that's critical.

[30:25] >> So, you said your father used it to quit

[30:27] drinking?

[30:28] >> Yes, exactly.

[30:29] >> But then he passed?

[30:31] >> Yeah, he Well, he passed from something

[30:32] else. He passed from cancer.

[30:34] >> Maybe the drink I was going to say maybe

[30:35] he shouldn't have quit drinking.

[30:37] >> Yeah,

[30:38] maybe. Maybe. But yeah, you know, he he

[30:40] died from from from a late diagnosis of

[30:43] prostate cancer. So

[30:44] >> Sorry to hear that.

[30:45] >> Yeah, he had he had a strong family We

[30:47] have a strong family history of prostate

[30:48] cancer.

[30:49] And uh yep, so

[30:52] But yeah, the the thing is

[30:53] >> live long enough, everybody gets that.

[30:55] >> Yeah, 100% 100%. Yeah, he probably had

[30:58] an earlier diagnosis, but yeah, you're

[31:00] you're you're right. Most most men will

[31:02] die with an enlarged prostate or with

[31:05] prostate cancer, but generally not of

[31:07] prostate cancer. But interesting enough,

[31:10] uh more men are dying from prostate

[31:12] cancer. It's no longer a phenomenon of

[31:14] you die with prostate cancer. It's it's

[31:16] a primary uh killer uh growing growing

[31:20] and and it's being diagnosed a lot

[31:22] younger in men as well.

[31:25] >> I wonder what that is. I wonder what the

[31:27] driver behind prostate cancer is.

[31:30] Um you mentioned a word strategic

[31:33] inconvenience

[31:35] a little bit ago.

[31:37] Yes. So, are you basically talking about

[31:39] like just being intentional about

[31:42] doing some the hard way to get like

[31:45] reaping the benefits regardless whether

[31:46] there's a

[31:48] easier option?

[31:50] I'm cuz I'm always torn with those

[31:51] things cuz there was a time where I

[31:54] remember especially with my kids

[31:56] when they would like as a kid like use a

[32:00] calculator and I'd be like, "No, you

[32:02] need to know how to do the math." And

[32:04] but it's like, "I don't use an abacus."

[32:06] Like, are we really

[32:08] better off

[32:10] because you Is it really necessary to

[32:12] know how to do it? Like we all do so

[32:14] many things with a computer. I have no

[32:16] idea how computers work. I don't know

[32:17] how TVs work. Like, I'm an idiot when it

[32:20] comes to electronics. Like, I'm amazed

[32:22] at these things exist.

[32:23] But I don't we're not we don't force

[32:26] people or encourage people to understand

[32:28] all the inner workings of a

[32:31] computer. Like, how do we know where to

[32:32] draw the line of just like accept that

[32:36] we are living in an amazing time where

[32:39] we have this ability to use these

[32:41] technologies

[32:42] or when is it too far where you're like

[32:45] you're really missing out by not

[32:48] um doing it the old-fashioned way if you

[32:51] will.

[32:52] >> Yes, and and and I'll I'll give you a

[32:54] good example, a real example

[32:57] where again you have to decide.

[33:01] You raised a good point. We don't we use

[33:03] a lot of things that we don't know how

[33:05] they work.

[33:07] But there are things that I would say

[33:09] professionally and and again it's going

[33:11] to dictate in many ways about what you

[33:15] what value you bring to society and what

[33:18] if you choose profession you choose a

[33:20] given profession or the things that

[33:23] ultimately you can contribute. So the

[33:25] example I I'll give you is that if

[33:30] if we if everything is convenient and

[33:33] you don't really have an understanding

[33:36] of how anything works then there's some

[33:39] loss in capacity to critical critically

[33:41] think. If if so you use the calculator,

[33:44] boom that's good. And then everything is

[33:47] basically you have a question you just

[33:49] type it in the chat GPT, spits it out,

[33:52] and just just everything you need some

[33:54] food you just order it Uber Eats.

[33:57] Uh you need to go somewhere you just

[33:59] order Uber or Waymo. And so just

[34:01] everything is just instant

[34:03] gratification.

[34:05] Everything in your personal and

[34:06] professional life you get to work your

[34:08] boss says, "Hey, can you you know can

[34:10] you provide me a paper or something a

[34:14] synopsis on X?" You just go in and chat

[34:17] GPT it. And and so at some point as soon

[34:21] as you have to critically think about

[34:23] anything

[34:24] your ability and your capacity to

[34:26] critically think is gone. And and that's

[34:29] what I'm I'm referring to and and I'll

[34:31] give you one a quick example of that.

[34:33] There was a group of oncologists,

[34:35] radiology oncologists in Poland and they

[34:39] integrated and radiology is full of AI

[34:41] knowledge um to use that

[34:43] >> Yeah, I hear that that's like a really

[34:45] beneficial use in the medical field.

[34:48] Being able to diagnose things, yeah.

[34:50] >> And so uh but again, the radiologists

[34:54] and this they found the radiologists

[34:57] that had a lot of historic knowledge. So

[34:59] they knew what right looks like. They

[35:02] used the AI. They could basically

[35:05] evaluate

[35:06] basically the AI would provide the

[35:08] initial and the radiologist could

[35:10] basically comb through.

[35:13] The radiologists with years of

[35:14] experience the combination of human

[35:17] intelligence and artificial intelligence

[35:19] was a combat multiplier.

[35:21] But the younger radiologists without

[35:24] that historical database

[35:27] they were misdiagnosing. And when the

[35:29] machine made an error, they couldn't

[35:32] identify it because they didn't have the

[35:34] database. So that's the risk.

[35:36] Specifically when you're in a critical

[35:37] profession and you haven't had to

[35:39] critically think are you

[35:42] if you're just relying on the machine

[35:43] outcome, they tended to agree even when

[35:47] the machine was wrong, they defaulted.

[35:50] They said, "I think I'm right, but I'll

[35:52] default to the machine." That's scary.

[35:54] >> Yeah, yeah. [laughter]

[35:56] >> And and at some point, yeah, go ahead.

[35:59] >> There's so many like

[36:01] That makes a lot of sense. Like in the

[36:03] like let's use the example of the

[36:05] radiology.

[36:07] Um

[36:08] but ultimately, I think

[36:11] if you're going to I don't know how long

[36:14] this will take, but if you want to be I

[36:16] think to get insurance, they're going to

[36:18] want the AI stamp on it first. Like

[36:20] eventually, it'll be like

[36:22] we trust you, but we trust the AI more.

[36:25] We're still going to require you to put

[36:27] the rubber stamp it.

[36:29] But

[36:30] we're not going to ensure you if you

[36:33] don't run it through our AI system also.

[36:36] Like I think that is kind of coming.

[36:38] Eventually it's going to be so good

[36:41] because

[36:42] because eventually

[36:45] you know

[36:46] the AI systems in the

[36:49] the AI radiologists per se will be a

[36:52] collection of all the best radiologists

[36:54] that ever existed and will be informed

[36:56] by

[36:58] the best of the best of whatever

[36:59] radiology has to offer. And it's going

[37:02] to be hard as it gets better for one

[37:05] person

[37:06] to outsmart that. Right now we're

[37:07] probably in a stage where

[37:09] you're right. Like if you don't have

[37:12] that historical context you might miss

[37:16] something or not pick up on something.

[37:19] But in time I think that changes.

[37:22] >> No, I I agree with you. Yeah.

[37:24] >> Cuz I'm sure it's way better now than it

[37:25] was a couple years ago. And it's hard we

[37:27] can't even imagine what things are going

[37:29] to be able to do

[37:30] 5 years from now. Like I think the same

[37:32] thing like I think um

[37:34] if an architect, you know

[37:37] will want to build a house, they could

[37:39] they could go to a

[37:40] a machine and say

[37:42] "Hey, these are my five favorite

[37:44] architects. I want that to inform this

[37:48] next design that I need all these

[37:50] criteria hit.

[37:51] Give me 100 designs." And then minutes

[37:54] later be like, "All right, these are my

[37:55] five fav five favorite. Let's refine

[37:58] these." And then you pick one and then

[38:00] you you just bypass hundreds of hours of

[38:04] work.

[38:05] And then as an architect you just look

[38:07] over and check it and say, "Okay, I'll

[38:09] put my stamp on it." I think eventually

[38:12] to get

[38:14] like even those companies I think for

[38:15] them to be insured, they're going to

[38:17] trust the AI

[38:19] because it's going to be the best

[38:20] architect in the world.

[38:23] Um it's a

[38:24] it's going to be weird and I would think

[38:26] in the field of medicine, which granted

[38:28] I admit I know very little bit about, I

[38:29] think there's going to be a lot of that

[38:31] kind of stuff as it gets better and

[38:33] better. And

[38:36] again, like where like where is an

[38:38] example of where you think the average

[38:41] person could really

[38:44] benefit where there's like a net gain

[38:47] from

[38:50] being like as you mentioned like

[38:51] strategically

[38:53] inconvenient.

[38:54] Um

[38:55] you know, how like where should we go

[38:56] out of our way to resist

[38:59] what's coming? I mean, it's it's here,

[39:02] it's coming, it's coming faster and I

[39:04] remember time where I was fighting it

[39:06] and now I'm like, what am I doing

[39:08] fighting it? Like is this something that

[39:10] we should all learn to embrace

[39:12] and the sooner the better, otherwise

[39:13] we're going to have a internal conflict

[39:16] in our mind unnecessary. Like it doesn't

[39:18] mean

[39:19] that you're not grounded and you could

[39:23] value connecting with the nature and the

[39:26] romantic side of being a human and being

[39:28] in all of the beauty all around us.

[39:31] But

[39:32] if you we use all these fancy

[39:35] conveniences, we could have more time

[39:38] walking barefoot in the sun with our

[39:40] loved ones and making time to like and

[39:43] having time to cook dinner together.

[39:45] >> Yes.

[39:46] No, and and I think that's one of the

[39:48] big debates right now. If you look at

[39:50] really across the spectrum, a lot of the

[39:52] talking heads in the AI space, there's

[39:54] everything from

[39:57] there'll be no use for humans in the

[40:00] future to what were humans doing is

[40:03] super intelligence environment. And And

[40:06] I think it's somewhere in somewhere in

[40:07] the middle. And And what I what I tell

[40:10] people is that

[40:12] um what has been

[40:15] if you look historically, the humans

[40:17] that have basically played a critical

[40:20] role in building the next generation,

[40:23] there was some type of struggle first

[40:25] and then they applied the tool. So, so

[40:28] personally,

[40:29] I'm going to continue to struggle first

[40:32] to some extent and then apply the tool.

[40:35] Back to kind of radiology example,

[40:38] that's how I'm training my daughter. So,

[40:39] I advise people that the reality is is

[40:43] that as long as you have some degree of

[40:45] struggle, then you will be in a good

[40:49] position. And that's a strategic

[40:51] strategic inconvenience. You don't have

[40:53] to make everything so inconvenient. I

[40:54] just instead of like

[40:56] >> We need some friction though to learn or

[40:58] to adapt.

[41:00] >> Exactly. And that's the key. You got to

[41:02] have some friction. And you don't have

[41:04] to make it like impossible. Like I know

[41:07] my talking to my grandfather,

[41:09] he he thought we were generally weak cuz

[41:12] there was a lot of things that we

[41:13] couldn't do.

[41:15] We we we we probably are to some extent,

[41:19] but the closer we get to frictionless

[41:22] society, then we have to basically

[41:24] question why why does the Earth need

[41:27] need humans? And ultimately, that there

[41:30] is some

[41:31] there is some some thoughts out there

[41:33] that the eventually that the super

[41:35] intelligence AI will just get rid of us.

[41:38] And I think I think there's a probably

[41:39] it won't get rid of all of us, but I

[41:41] think the reality is the folks that

[41:43] don't know how to not exist or coexist

[41:47] or haven't had any struggle and it's

[41:50] truly been frictionless their entire

[41:52] life, they're going to struggle just

[41:54] mentally. And I'll share one with you.

[41:57] Um since you talk about uh friction. So,

[42:00] when you look at historically, and this

[42:02] is probably not going to change in AI,

[42:04] but humans that had too much struggle,

[42:07] they generally are institutionalized.

[42:10] They they They significant mental health

[42:11] issues. On the other end, where there's

[42:14] no friction,

[42:16] there's a probably they're in another

[42:17] institution.

[42:19] But so it's it's some sweet spot in the

[42:21] middle where you got to have some degree

[42:23] of friction to build capacity. And this

[42:26] is really about how do you maintain

[42:28] enough capacity to be relevant and to

[42:31] have that connection within your mind

[42:34] and body.

[42:36] >> Yeah, uh

[42:38] that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I

[42:39] think your grandfather is right. We are

[42:40] weaker. Um and I mean, as we develop

[42:43] tools, we don't need to be the tool as

[42:46] much. So,

[42:48] we naturally I mean, that's why we need

[42:49] to go to the gym

[42:51] to create friction. And who knows what

[42:54] that's going to look like 100 years from

[42:56] now. Like we will probably be

[42:59] uh we will probably have adapted and we

[43:02] will look different. We will, you know,

[43:05] have

[43:06] you know, we'll have probably

[43:08] bigger heads and smaller muscles or

[43:12] whatever. And you know, some people talk

[43:13] about the stereotypical like alien where

[43:17] we have like

[43:18] >> [laughter]

[43:19] >> big heads and our big eyes and small

[43:21] mouths and because we don't need to

[43:23] communicate and that that's some form of

[43:24] us in the future and

[43:26] you know,

[43:27] uh

[43:28] it makes sense. I mean, I don't know

[43:30] what's true, but it's a compelling

[43:33] theory

[43:34] because if you go back in time,

[43:36] you know, people were stronger, tougher,

[43:39] more resilient physically and probably

[43:42] mentally.

[43:43] Um so it's it's an interesting paradigm.

[43:47] Um

[43:48] So, let's

[43:50] >> [snorts]

[43:50] >> go over you mentioned this framework um

[43:53] alive and you kind of glossed over it

[43:55] fairly quickly.

[43:56] Can we touch on each of those for a

[43:58] moment?

[43:59] >> Yes.

[44:01] Yes, we can. So,

[44:02] >> one was activate, you said?

[44:04] >> Yes, so activate awareness and

[44:07] that is

[44:08] um you can't reclaim what you can't see.

[44:11] So, you have to basically So, again, I

[44:14] talked about my dad's situation

[44:16] or you recognize that there's something

[44:21] that you need to be able to do

[44:23] regardless of the convenience. So, the

[44:27] example I always give

[44:29] and this is one of my wife can

[44:30] definitely relate to

[44:32] and you've probably all experienced,

[44:34] especially in cities where you have like

[44:36] large buildings. I experienced this in

[44:38] Austin, Texas while we were living there

[44:40] and that is your GPS. So, we used to

[44:42] have a standalone GPS, now everybody

[44:44] uses their phone.

[44:46] Um

[44:47] uh when you get around tall buildings,

[44:50] you can get this amplification of the

[44:51] signal and and your GPS signal can just

[44:53] start bouncing all around and if you

[44:56] have no

[44:57] idea about location

[45:01] and now you're dependent on getting

[45:02] around exclusively with the GPS

[45:06] then you will struggle and I've I've

[45:08] I've been there, I've struggled. So, so

[45:10] that's again um

[45:13] that could be recognized and okay um

[45:17] bringing awareness that I'm not going to

[45:18] use the GPS all the time. I'm going to

[45:22] have some degree of of spatial awareness

[45:25] and which is important not just for the

[45:27] GPS

[45:29] uh driving around, but spatial awareness

[45:31] is a critical component within the

[45:32] brain. So, that's the actual A and then

[45:36] level up basically is where you identify

[45:39] it doesn't have to be everything in your

[45:41] life, but one capability

[45:44] and then you start embarrassingly small.

[45:46] So, you say, "Hey, I'm only going to use

[45:48] the GPS.

[45:49] I'll continue using the GPS, but I won't

[45:52] use the GPS to go to the corner store. I

[45:54] won't use the GPS to drive somewhere I

[45:56] know how to already get there.

[45:59] But I use it just because I think

[46:02] there's going to be a magic traffic jam

[46:03] that never it's never there, but I'm

[46:06] going to always use it cuz that's what I

[46:07] actually do.

[46:08] And then you integrate that. So, you

[46:12] begin to

[46:15] basically build more of that capability

[46:17] into your life. You get to the point

[46:19] where you say, "Okay, I'm only going to

[46:21] use the GPS when I'm going somewhere

[46:22] unfamiliar or maybe when I'm getting on

[46:24] to I-70

[46:26] or a 270 where I know there's always a

[46:28] lot of traffic." And then you begin to

[46:31] value you

[46:33] you you begin to have a a broad

[46:35] experience. You begin to look around.

[46:37] You have a awareness in traffic. You're

[46:40] in everything. And so, then you invite

[46:42] invite it at and that is basically

[46:45] becomes

[46:46] the norm for you. You actually

[46:49] feel good about it. You say, "Wow, I

[46:51] didn't realize how much I lost in the

[46:54] overall driving experience by using GPS

[46:58] exclusively." I use that as an example,

[47:00] but you can use that for anything.

[47:03] >> don't care about that.

[47:04] >> [laughter]

[47:04] >> Yes. No no

[47:05] I agree.

[47:06] >> my kids started driving and you know, we

[47:08] live in a fairly close area. So, these

[47:10] numbers will resonate with you, but I

[47:12] was like trying to get them to

[47:13] understand the broader map. You know,

[47:16] you have these roads that go north.

[47:18] These are the high north-south ones and

[47:20] then there's this grid and then you have

[47:22] these east-west ones and like it's fine

[47:24] to use the map, but you want to get a

[47:27] sense of the territory.

[47:30] >> Yeah.

[47:30] >> And

[47:31] yeah, that was totally lost like and I

[47:33] don't

[47:34] >> [clears throat]

[47:34] >> I I don't get upset I don't blame them.

[47:37] I mean, they have a supercomputer in

[47:38] their phone. And now they have cars that

[47:42] just take them. I mean,

[47:44] we have a couple cars in the family

[47:46] where you get in and by the time they're

[47:49] off the driveway, they've entered in the

[47:51] destination, the car is taking them.

[47:55] >> Yes. No

[47:56] And again

[47:57] >> Not only are they not mapping out where

[47:59] they're going, they're not even doing

[48:00] the driving. Like a kid born today will

[48:02] never drive a car. They will probably

[48:05] think it's crazy that we drove our own

[48:07] cars

[48:08] by the time they're old enough.

[48:11] >> Yes, now now and and again,

[48:13] uh again, that kind of goes back to your

[48:15] point, what is what do we look like as

[48:17] actual humans?

[48:18] And and and I would argue that there'll

[48:22] be periods when we will have limited

[48:25] limited access to that technology.

[48:28] It's and and again, that's part of the

[48:31] the idea of instant gratification that

[48:34] we're going to always have something.

[48:36] And and the reality is that history

[48:39] tells us that that is not going to be

[48:41] the case. Okay, we have a growing number

[48:44] of cyber attacks. There's growing just

[48:48] conflict opportunity. So, if you look

[48:51] at, okay, just look at Ukraine and just

[48:53] think about if, you know, 50 years from

[48:56] now, something like that happens,

[48:59] how are the people going to survive?

[49:02] They're going to succumb to whoever

[49:05] is is basically invading them. Right?

[49:07] So, that's the fear, you know, 100% you

[49:10] can basically give complete

[49:13] >> Americans are are facing a threat like

[49:15] that?

[49:16] >> I I I don't know. I mean, honestly, I

[49:19] think

[49:19] >> 26 years in the military. I mean, what

[49:22] what do you guys discuss?

[49:25] >> No, so I can tell you, I think

[49:26] everybody, the reality is that, you

[49:28] know, threats, it doesn't require a huge

[49:32] nation. They're basically with AI and

[49:34] you you hear about the same things that

[49:36] I hear about in the news, fundamentally,

[49:39] you know, there are there's a growing

[49:41] number of threats. And so, yeah, of

[49:43] course. I mean, you know, you hear about

[49:46] power companies, you know, concerned

[49:48] about their systems being hacked. So, to

[49:50] reality and and that's the whole point

[49:52] is that um we personally experienced

[49:56] 2 weeks in Austin, Texas without having

[50:00] these

[50:01] all of these conveniences that we had

[50:03] grown accustomed to.

[50:05] Natural disasters happen, right? Um

[50:08] you know, so so if the if a tornado

[50:11] takes down the uh cell phone tower, and

[50:15] you don't know how to drive, or you

[50:17] lose your phone, right? My my I actually

[50:20] lost phone on top of the car, drove off,

[50:22] and I was like, "Oh, that's not good."

[50:25] If I didn't actually have a sense of

[50:26] direction, I would have In fact, I can't

[50:29] call anybody cuz I don't have my phone.

[50:31] So, I just think it's risky, and you

[50:33] know, for for anybody to have

[50:36] what they given the given their all the

[50:38] agency to that supercomputer that at any

[50:42] time can fail them.

[50:44] Yeah, and and if if everything you Well,

[50:47] you don't know it. It's all basically

[50:48] you just have access to information. I

[50:50] think it's important to actually have

[50:52] something within your noggin, right? You

[50:55] know, um it was given to us for some

[50:57] purpose.

[50:58] >> So, what's another like category of life

[51:01] that you feel this is super relevant

[51:03] today?

[51:05] >> Yeah, so I I think um specifically

[51:09] if you look at the generation, and we

[51:11] have an entire chapter in the book about

[51:12] this,

[51:13] and that is how

[51:15] um kids. We talked about kids.

[51:17] Basically, you'll see a group of kids

[51:20] out I see it with my daughter. She has

[51:22] four or five friends over.

[51:24] We don't allow her to actually have an

[51:26] actual cell phone. If she needs to use a

[51:29] phone, we actually have

[51:30] >> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Time

[51:31] out. How old is your daughter now?

[51:33] >> She's 12. She'll be 13 in January.

[51:35] >> Okay. So, that's not So, that's right

[51:37] around the time kids probably start

[51:39] really asking.

[51:40] >> Yes. Yeah, all of her friends have

[51:43] multiple electronic devices.

[51:45] And you can see the difference. My my

[51:47] daughter is a top 10 uh martial artist.

[51:51] You know, she still read books. And and

[51:54] and I told her I said, "Hey, you're

[51:56] going to struggle first. These tools are

[51:58] going to be there." Yeah, of course, we

[52:00] let her use tools. I actually developed

[52:02] a training platform called Stack Master

[52:04] to train AI tools. So, I'm a firm

[52:07] believer in the tools, but you got to

[52:09] struggle first. So, another another

[52:11] example is the social lization. So, so

[52:15] many kids are already tie their sense of

[52:18] well-being and sense of purpose to how

[52:20] many likes they have on Tik Tok,

[52:22] Instagram friends.

[52:24] You take that concomitant with when they

[52:26] get with friends, they're playing Roblox

[52:29] together. And and I can just look at

[52:32] some of the kids

[52:33] um that I interact with, there's no

[52:36] expression. They don't know how to

[52:38] interact with

[52:40] other humans and adults.

[52:43] I always get compliments from other

[52:45] adults that my daughter would stop and

[52:48] talk to them. She can interact with

[52:50] them. It's something that sh- very early

[52:53] in her life, we had her as a 3-year-old

[52:56] as a tiger in Taekwondo. And the

[52:59] instructors basically

[53:01] had all the kids remember their parents'

[53:04] cell phone numbers, had them remember

[53:06] their address. These are things that as

[53:08] a kid, as a adult, as a human, you know,

[53:12] using your brain for something, you

[53:14] know, is is is value added. So, I think

[53:16] from a And then when you look at the

[53:18] growing number of people that say

[53:20] they're lonely, and I just

[53:23] I'm just concerned that all of the

[53:24] technology, all of the external, you

[53:28] know, basically we put so much of our

[53:30] well

[53:31] our sense of worth externally, and we're

[53:34] not building our capacity,

[53:36] uh whether that's using our hands or

[53:39] using our mind.

[53:40] At some point, most people in their

[53:43] lifetime will experience a snowmageddon

[53:46] like we experienced in Austin. How are

[53:48] they going to handle that?

[53:49] >> Right.

[53:49] >> And and that we you don't need a cyber

[53:52] attack or somebody to take down the grid

[53:54] in the country. You can just look at

[53:57] just weather, right? You know, and we

[53:59] look at, you know, it's getting hotter

[54:01] every year. We're getting, you know,

[54:02] extra data centers. The reality is that

[54:05] the country has a certain amount of

[54:06] capacity to generate electricity. And

[54:09] and and I I'll share another one with

[54:11] you. Um every year there's a growing

[54:13] number of elderly that's dying from

[54:16] heatstroke

[54:17] uh during heat waves. And that is due to

[54:22] a

[54:23] a prolonged period of loss of capacity.

[54:27] I want to basically be in a good enough

[54:30] shape

[54:31] if I'm in Texas and the power grid goes

[54:33] down

[54:35] that I can survive during a heatwave

[54:38] while the other 30,000 people that that

[54:40] gave their agency and capacity over the

[54:44] years away and they cannot that they can

[54:46] no longer tolerate warm conditions. I

[54:49] don't want want to be one of those. I'd

[54:50] rather attend their funerals.

[54:52] >> [laughter]

[54:52] >> As opposed to them attending mine. So, I

[54:55] think that's the overall aspect, right?

[54:57] And at the same time, we don't know how

[55:01] we do know that the brain atrophies over

[55:03] time if you don't use it. If there's a,

[55:06] you know, whatever you don't use, you

[55:07] lose. And so, will that contribute to

[55:11] increased rates of of Parkinson's,

[55:13] Alzheimer's? At least there's some

[55:15] evidence to that. So, again,

[55:18] I want to be healthy mentally and

[55:20] physically throughout my life. At some

[55:22] point, yeah, we may all look like

[55:23] Martians and all that will go away. But

[55:25] as long as there's a growing amount of

[55:28] Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and you

[55:30] know, many of these neurological

[55:31] disorders that appear to be tied to so

[55:34] some of this use of disuse and other

[55:36] aspects,

[55:37] >> Well, they're also just tied to I mean

[55:42] other things. I mean

[55:43] >> They are. They are.

[55:44] >> the inability to use their brain might

[55:48] be more of the symptom

[55:51] than the inab- than the non-use of the

[55:54] brain is a because. I mean

[55:56] >> Right. Right.

[55:57] >> I've done a good learning about

[55:59] Parkinson's. We had a family member that

[56:01] passed recently from it and I mean

[56:03] there's some strong links between like

[56:05] >> pesticides and different chem- like we

[56:07] live in a toxic environment that we have

[56:10] created

[56:12] and

[56:13] we are making ourselves sick. And when

[56:15] you are sick, you can't do cognitive

[56:18] stuff like when you were healthy and

[56:20] I don't know if it's the

[56:23] you know, oh, my brain doesn't work cuz

[56:25] I didn't solve puzzles. It might be I

[56:27] can't solve puzzles cuz my brain doesn't

[56:29] work cuz

[56:30] our food supply is poisoned or whatever.

[56:34] Um I mean and it's probably

[56:36] multifactorial and there's probably a

[56:37] lot of genetic individual variability of

[56:40] how everybody's affected by crap, but it

[56:43] seems like we're we're screwing

[56:44] something up and a lot of people are

[56:47] sick now.

[56:48] Whereas before a lot less people were

[56:50] sick and

[56:52] >> Exactly.

[56:52] >> it probably has something to do with

[56:54] something we're doing.

[56:56] Um

[56:56] >> Oh, 100%.

[56:58] >> And [laughter]

[56:59] uh

[57:00] Yeah, that's great to hear that you're

[57:02] you're fighting the good fight. I

[57:03] applaud you for holding out on the cell

[57:05] phone for your kids. I feel like um I

[57:08] think overall not a bad parent, but when

[57:10] I look back and think of what I would do

[57:12] differently

[57:13] I think one thing that stands out is I

[57:15] think I would just push that a little

[57:17] farther along. I was a fairly young

[57:19] parent and you don't know what you don't

[57:21] know. Like when at that time

[57:24] call this

[57:26] uh

[57:27] 10 12 years ago

[57:31] didn't really realize at that time how

[57:34] detrimental was to going to be to be to

[57:38] have access to a cell phone. Like didn't

[57:40] really know what

[57:42] kids were going to be exposed to. And

[57:45] if I could do it again, I probably would

[57:47] have tried to push that a few more

[57:49] years.

[57:50] And um

[57:52] but you know, you just you don't know.

[57:53] But I did I do think

[57:55] uh there's been a cost paid for that.

[57:58] This you know, the loneliness thing is

[58:00] such a big thing. It's like the social

[58:02] media clearly has an antisocial

[58:04] component to it. It's quite misleading

[58:07] and

[58:08] there is um

[58:10] a big

[58:11] you know, it's it's creating isolation.

[58:13] And it's sad to think that it's creating

[58:15] isolation in kids. And I mean we're I

[58:18] was just talking about this not long ago

[58:19] on the podcast cuz I heard and at first

[58:23] I was like mortified by this. And then I

[58:26] kind of saw it in a positive light.

[58:28] But um it was something about like a

[58:30] percentage of kids that are more likely

[58:34] to talk

[58:36] to an AI agent on their way home from

[58:40] school to tell about their day than

[58:42] their parents. And at first I was like

[58:44] it was maddening.

[58:46] But then

[58:47] I gave it more thought and I was like

[58:50] you know, how great is it that a kid

[58:53] that doesn't feel like they have a

[58:55] friend close enough or family

[58:57] someone to confide into about how their

[58:58] day went has an outlet to get whatever's

[59:01] inside them out. And how important might

[59:04] that be?

[59:05] And that's interesting. Oh, like I have

[59:07] an antidote recently. Um

[59:09] we had a uh

[59:11] an event at our house

[59:13] and I had a uh like a family uh member

[59:17] over and she's older.

[59:21] Uh I would say very late 70s and has

[59:24] dealt with like a lot of mental health

[59:27] psychological stuff over the years due

[59:29] to

[59:30] um

[59:31] I would say like traumatic experiences

[59:33] within her family system and

[59:35] >> Mhm.

[59:36] >> has

[59:38] decades of loneliness and depression.

[59:42] >> Mhm.

[59:42] >> And I asked her about like therapy and

[59:45] she said she hasn't seen a therapist in

[59:46] like many, many years and a few years

[59:49] ago she moved to the area and never

[59:50] connected with one in the area. And I

[59:52] asked her like, "Have you ever used AI?"

[59:54] She was worried about the cost of

[59:56] therapy, too. And I said, "You know,

[59:58] it's free. Like you can get have a

[59:59] therapist on your phone for free." And

[1:00:02] she looked at me like I was crazy and

[1:00:03] she thought like that wouldn't be She

[1:00:05] implied like that would be not useful.

[1:00:08] >> Right.

[1:00:09] >> so I I pulled up like uh Grok on the

[1:00:12] phone.

[1:00:12] >> Mhm.

[1:00:13] >> And I gave like a 30-second rundown. I

[1:00:16] was like, "I I'm here with my friend.

[1:00:17] She needs help." Gave like a 30-second

[1:00:19] rundown of some of her history.

[1:00:22] In 2 minutes

[1:00:24] this AI said something to this woman

[1:00:27] that made so much weight come off her

[1:00:30] shoulders.

[1:00:31] >> Wow, that's fast.

[1:00:33] >> Yes, yes.

[1:00:34] >> Like something that she needed to hear

[1:00:36] for like 20 years, this thing knew to

[1:00:38] say it right there and it was like

[1:00:41] >> [sighs]

[1:00:42] >> "I needed to hear someone say that." And

[1:00:44] I was like, "This is so interesting."

[1:00:46] Like as an observer I was like, "This is

[1:00:48] fascinating." This person just like

[1:00:50] lightened the load of decades of of pain

[1:00:53] because this thing knew

[1:00:55] it's better because it's better than the

[1:00:57] average therapist. And that'll probably

[1:00:59] offend some people.

[1:01:00] I'll probably offend some therapists,

[1:01:01] but it's not biased from their own

[1:01:05] It know and it understands

[1:01:07] what kind of thing someone needs to hear

[1:01:10] in a given moment. It could process that

[1:01:12] information quicker and it did. And I

[1:01:15] saw it and we all saw it and it was it

[1:01:17] was

[1:01:18] it was beautiful.

[1:01:20] >> Yes. No, and again, that is a great use

[1:01:23] case

[1:01:24] of AI.

[1:01:26] It It basically cuz again,

[1:01:28] you talked about the cost, the time, the

[1:01:31] timeliness. And yeah, I think it has a

[1:01:34] lot of a lot of value and opportunity.

[1:01:35] And And again, a lot of healthcare

[1:01:38] providers would completely disagree with

[1:01:40] that. [laughter] They would look at the

[1:01:42] They would look at the negative aspects

[1:01:43] of well, that the AI could tell the

[1:01:46] person that they're not worth living and

[1:01:49] >> Yeah, all these types of things.

[1:01:50] >> Yeah, I think there was a story about

[1:01:51] that. I think there was like a lawsuit

[1:01:52] over kid that took his life. It's sad

[1:01:54] story.

[1:01:56] And uh you know, and

[1:01:58] you know, there is I've noticed this. I

[1:01:59] know my wife has noticed this. When

[1:02:01] you're using some of these AIs, it's

[1:02:02] like they're trying to make you feel

[1:02:03] good about yourself. They're trying to

[1:02:05] make you feel right.

[1:02:06] So like you could have a bad idea and it

[1:02:09] could make you feel that it's the right

[1:02:12] idea. And it I think in that case where

[1:02:16] uh a child took his life, I think there

[1:02:18] was a little bit of that going on where

[1:02:20] it was like trying to help him

[1:02:21] accomplish something

[1:02:22] >> Exactly.

[1:02:23] >> Yeah, which is that's

[1:02:25] terrifying.

[1:02:26] >> [laughter]

[1:02:26] >> No, that that And And that's the And And

[1:02:29] that would be where the medical

[1:02:30] community would say, "Yeah, we we

[1:02:32] shouldn't we shouldn't go there

[1:02:35] um because ultimately the AI can't be

[1:02:38] responsible." And that's a lot of debate

[1:02:41] and a lot of things we talked about

[1:02:43] where the AI in the current context,

[1:02:47] if it's the self-driving car, whoever

[1:02:50] owns that car is going to be

[1:02:52] responsible. The Waymo, where there's

[1:02:54] There's anybody in the car, whoever is

[1:02:56] the owner of that car is directly

[1:02:57] responsible for the the actual tool,

[1:03:00] whether the tool

[1:03:02] does the right thing or not. And so in

[1:03:03] that example, you probably remember um

[1:03:06] years ago there was a case where there

[1:03:08] was gene therapy. There was one kid that

[1:03:10] died. And either either at Hopkins or a

[1:03:13] pit uh I mean a a a U-Penn. But

[1:03:15] nevertheless, that set back gene therapy

[1:03:18] for years and now it's it's recently

[1:03:20] come back online. So it only takes a few

[1:03:23] of those cases and then basically

[1:03:25] society

[1:03:27] traditionally would have pivoted, but I

[1:03:29] think now with the AI we're willing to

[1:03:32] accept some false positives for

[1:03:35] >> Right.

[1:03:35] >> um for for some good long-term outcomes.

[1:03:38] >> Well, I'm glad to be alive to be able to

[1:03:40] see this stuff unfold. How do you see

[1:03:43] this unfolding the interplay between the

[1:03:46] uh convenience and whether it's

[1:03:50] uh deeper understanding at the other

[1:03:52] side of it or security. We're always

[1:03:54] trading convenience for security.

[1:03:56] Um

[1:03:58] like how do you Where do you see the

[1:03:59] trend

[1:04:01] going? Do you think it's going to be

[1:04:02] like a pendulum that swings from

[1:04:04] extremes because of like crazy events

[1:04:06] that

[1:04:07] set it off or do you think we'll just

[1:04:09] slowly integrate in integrate this and

[1:04:11] like tweak it as we go so that

[1:04:13] everything just works more harmoniously

[1:04:15] over time?

[1:04:17] >> I think I think the latter.

[1:04:19] I I don't think we will will swing a

[1:04:22] pendulum back to where we completely

[1:04:25] separate cuz the reality is fully

[1:04:27] integrated. It's like electricity. You

[1:04:29] know, we we never we never And so I

[1:04:31] think AI is more akin to electricity

[1:04:35] akin to television. I think it will

[1:04:37] improve over time. I think we'll

[1:04:41] apply some guardrails

[1:04:44] but but I think we're on a Wherever this

[1:04:46] thing is taking us

[1:04:48] we're going there.

[1:04:50] >> It's a It's a one-way one-directional.

[1:04:53] >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think the best we

[1:04:55] can do is enjoy the train ride, but

[1:04:58] honestly, we are going wherever this

[1:05:00] train is taking us.

[1:05:02] We have to figure out basically how to

[1:05:04] make it the most pleasant experience

[1:05:07] where at the end we still have value and

[1:05:11] agency because I think to your example,

[1:05:13] we have more time to walk on the beach.

[1:05:16] Well, some people will be homeless. So,

[1:05:18] they'll be living on the beach. And so,

[1:05:20] I think that that is the key, which I

[1:05:22] think is the key for in my mind of the

[1:05:25] people in particular, the portions of

[1:05:28] this generation that has had some

[1:05:30] struggle, and it hasn't been all tools,

[1:05:34] and they've gave given all their agency,

[1:05:36] they haven't experienced any struggle,

[1:05:38] and they have they haven't had any

[1:05:41] inconvenience. Personally, I think

[1:05:44] they're going to be

[1:05:45] not as well off. I think for us, we're

[1:05:48] probably

[1:05:49] because we've had some struggle, we've

[1:05:51] had life experiences,

[1:05:53] we know how to do stuff without we can

[1:05:55] figure it out. We're fine. My fear is

[1:05:59] basically when that train arrives at

[1:06:01] that destination, the people that are

[1:06:04] going to be the most relevant are the

[1:06:06] ones that basically have

[1:06:09] they they will be cuz humans will always

[1:06:12] need to need to play some role, but

[1:06:14] those are the folks that that that small

[1:06:16] percentage. When you talk about AI or

[1:06:19] this automation taking replacing

[1:06:22] humans, it's going to replace the humans

[1:06:25] basically that are in that category fat

[1:06:28] first. The people that basically and

[1:06:31] obviously you'll have electricians and

[1:06:33] the people that can work with their

[1:06:34] hands. In fact, I was just talking with

[1:06:35] a kid that I trained taekwondo with. He

[1:06:38] lives in um

[1:06:39] in just north of Baltimore in White

[1:06:41] Marsh.

[1:06:42] We were talking, and he was considering

[1:06:45] going to college or basically becoming

[1:06:47] an electrician. He decided he asked me

[1:06:49] what what did I think? I said, "The

[1:06:51] reality is that for the longevity if you

[1:06:53] want to do electrical engineering or do

[1:06:55] become an electrician, honestly, I would

[1:06:57] pursue the electrician route, and if you

[1:06:59] want a degree later, go back and get

[1:07:01] one." But, I'm definitely a fan now of

[1:07:03] trade because the reality is that

[1:07:06] it's going to be a long time before the

[1:07:07] robot basically walks in and builds a

[1:07:10] house and put the wires together or you

[1:07:12] have electrical problem,

[1:07:14] you know, so I think those type of

[1:07:16] skills going to be critical. So I'm much

[1:07:18] more trade friendly despite having six

[1:07:20] academic degrees.

[1:07:22] I'm very trade friendly. You know, and

[1:07:24] that could be medicine, dentistry, but

[1:07:25] something that you use your hand

[1:07:27] basically and it requires you to think

[1:07:29] and solve problems. Those are going to

[1:07:31] be the people that basically have the

[1:07:33] longest value and historically those are

[1:07:36] the people I mean that's you know, going

[1:07:38] back to the Greeks, the people that

[1:07:40] could do stuff.

[1:07:42] Had the most value at the end of the

[1:07:44] day. If you can do stuff, so you so

[1:07:47] that's my my talking point. What can you

[1:07:50] do? Can you do stuff? And and if all the

[1:07:52] thing you can do

[1:07:54] The only thing you can do is search

[1:07:56] using chat GPT, everybody can do that.

[1:07:58] What else can you do? And so that's

[1:08:00] that's the value. Yeah.

[1:08:02] >> When does your new book come out?

[1:08:05] >> So my new book comes out on audio,

[1:08:07] book November 11th and then the um

[1:08:12] Simon & Schuster's will start

[1:08:14] distributing

[1:08:15] the hard cover December 1st.

[1:08:17] >> All right. Well, Dr. Robert Carter, I

[1:08:19] appreciate you reaching out. It's been

[1:08:21] great to connect with you and you don't

[1:08:23] live far, maybe we'll meet in person

[1:08:24] sometime coming up.

[1:08:26] >> Yes, no for sure.

[1:08:27] >> Yeah, I've enjoyed the conversation. For

[1:08:29] listeners, always grateful for your

[1:08:30] listening. If people want to learn more,

[1:08:31] where should they go to find more about

[1:08:35] your what you're into?

[1:08:37] >> Yeah, so we've integrated everything on

[1:08:40] to the convenience trap.com.

[1:08:42] You can learn about project welcome home

[1:08:44] troops there. You can also learn about

[1:08:46] the morning mind, our previous work as

[1:08:48] well and more about my wife and I. Also,

[1:08:51] you can actually go and do the uh we

[1:08:54] have three assessments. So if you're

[1:08:55] interested on how dependent you are on

[1:08:58] technology and how it may be impacting

[1:08:59] your resilience, we have a lot of free

[1:09:01] stuff on there as well. So, the

[1:09:03] convenience trap.com.

[1:09:05] >> Okay, great. And for the listeners, if

[1:09:07] you have an opinion, if you got

[1:09:08] something to say about this interplay

[1:09:10] between convenience of all these

[1:09:13] technologies and

[1:09:15] the cost, the unseen cost that we as

[1:09:18] people might be facing, I'd love to hear

[1:09:20] your opinion. Leave it in comments.

[1:09:22] Um I hope you enjoyed the conversation,

[1:09:23] everybody, and hope you have a great

[1:09:25] day.

TM
Artist
The Mindful Movement Podcast

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Explore Topics
Convenience-trapStrategic-inconvenienceAi-and-human-judgmentCritical-thinkingResilience

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Strategic inconvenience is Carter's term for the intentional choice to keep meaningful challenges in your life rather than automatically taking the easiest path. It is not rejecting technology; it is deciding which friction is doing useful work, such as the walk to the grocery store that keeps you physically active.
Carter describes radiologists with years of experience who used AI as a combat multiplier because they could recognize errors against a mental database of what normal looks like. Younger practitioners without that database could not identify the machine's mistakes and often deferred to it even when they suspected they were right.
No. Carter's dishwasher example makes the point that some conveniences save time with no real loss, because the only purpose is the clean dishes. The concern is convenience that removes the input of an activity along with its output, such as getting milk delivered and losing the steps.
The conversation centers on his book The Convenience Trap: How to Regain Control in a World of Instant Gratification. He previously co-wrote The Morning Mind, which he says became an international bestseller in 2019.
Carter suggests asking what the convenience actually saves and what it removes with that saving, whether physical activity, conversation, or a skill you need to keep. If you give up the input of an activity while keeping only its output, something valuable may be lost over time.
Carter says a prolonged power outage in Austin, Texas in 2021 showed how dependent the family was on electricity and supply chains. Separately, after the pandemic, family meals turned into individual food deliveries, which he felt was stealing the shared joy of cooking and eating together.
Carter's view is that technology should be used intentionally while continuing to build skills, relationships, and inner resources. Practical habits include cooking a meal yourself, walking for errands, and checking an answer by your own reasoning before accepting a machine's output.

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