Transcript
[0:00] [Music]
[0:08] You are listening to the Way of the
[0:09] Shaman podcast with
[0:10] your host, Kerri Husman.
[0:14] The content shared in the Way of the
[0:15] Shaman podcast is for
[0:17] informational purposes only
[0:20] and does not constitute
[0:21] professional or therapeutic advice.
[0:24] The views expressed by the host and
[0:26] interviewees reflect their personal
[0:28] experiences and opinions.
[0:31] Please consult with an appropriate
[0:33] licensed professional
[0:34] if you have any medical,
[0:36] psychological, or legal concerns.
[0:40] Hello and welcome to the Way of the
[0:41] Shaman podcast. I'm your
[0:43] host, Kerri Husman, and today,
[0:45] Alex Solomon is joining us. She teaches
[0:49] on the East Coast,
[0:50] primarily in Connecticut,
[0:51] and teaches online. And we're going to be
[0:54] talking about her own journey into
[0:56] shamanism, as well as
[0:57] advanced shamanic divination training,
[1:00] which is a wonderful course
[1:02] to really build your skills,
[1:04] working with your helping spirits on
[1:06] divination methods. Welcome, Alex.
[1:09] Thank you for having me.
[1:10] So glad you're here today and so glad we
[1:12] get to talk about
[1:14] this important workshop.
[1:16] So but first, I'd love to hear more about
[1:18] your journey, how core
[1:20] shamanism and Michael
[1:22] Harner's work found you.
[1:25] So I'm someone who always journeyed. I
[1:28] was always aware of my
[1:30] power animal from when I was
[1:32] four or five years old. I was an only
[1:35] child until I was 10 and a
[1:37] half. And so I was always outside
[1:40] the yard. My mother very lovingly would
[1:43] say, you know, get out of
[1:45] my house. And so I would
[1:48] go out in the yard and I would talk to
[1:49] the trees and I would talk
[1:50] to the plants and talk to the
[1:52] rocks. And it took me a while to figure
[1:56] out that other children
[1:57] weren't doing that. And I was
[2:00] sort of the weird kid that was that was
[2:02] talking to rocks, and that
[2:04] the rocks in my room were my
[2:06] friends. And that wasn't that wasn't how
[2:08] everybody thought of
[2:09] it. So I never stopped
[2:13] journeying. I know a lot of kids that
[2:15] have that experience do but I
[2:18] didn't. And I was fortunate to
[2:23] find some adults in my teen years that
[2:26] had some experience. And I
[2:28] wouldn't say I really got
[2:30] training per se, but I did have a little
[2:34] bit of a path forward. And
[2:37] so through reading books and
[2:38] continuing that way, I continued the work
[2:42] through college. And then
[2:43] after college, I must have gone
[2:46] to the internet. I don't know that I was
[2:50] aware of the foundation. And so once
[2:52] again, very fortunate
[2:54] to find the foundation and to find Nan
[2:56] Moss and David Corbin, who
[2:59] were teaching up in Maine at the
[3:00] time. And so I went and I took my first
[3:03] workshop. Beautiful. And what
[3:07] was that first workshop like
[3:08] for you? What did that open up? What it
[3:12] opened up was really discipline and
[3:15] depth. Because as someone
[3:16] always journeyed, I just did it. I didn't
[3:21] need the structure in order to do the
[3:24] practice. But what I
[3:26] found was that getting the structure and
[3:29] getting a more disciplined way
[3:32] to go into the journey and to
[3:36] open a circle because just me and my
[3:38] house is still a circle,
[3:40] right? Me and my spirits.
[3:42] It gave me a way to start to go deeper.
[3:46] Got it. And, you know, realistically,
[3:50] because other people do come to this from
[3:52] methods where they just go
[3:53] there versus have a structure
[3:56] and a plan and a focus and steps, was it
[4:00] hard to incorporate that at
[4:02] first because it felt like
[4:04] someone was like putting guide rails on
[4:06] you in a way that felt
[4:08] uncomfortable? Or was that pretty
[4:10] difficult to do when you started to
[4:11] realize it improved your efficiency?
[4:14] Yeah, I think it was
[4:15] pretty easy. I've always been drawn to
[4:17] ceremony and I like to have
[4:20] a little bit of a, I don't
[4:23] know what long is, but a little bit of a
[4:25] longer ritual when I get
[4:27] started. And so it gave me more.
[4:33] And so it didn't feel constricting at
[4:36] all. It felt more like it opened doors.
[4:42] Nice. Now, fast forward a little bit. We
[4:46] know that you became a
[4:48] licensed clinical social worker
[4:50] and you have a separate shamanic
[4:51] practice. Now, how do you navigate these
[4:55] two separate practices successfully
[4:58] for you? So I am really cautious about
[5:03] keeping things separate.
[5:05] It's important to me to keep
[5:06] things separate for a few reasons. One is
[5:10] that the code of ethics
[5:12] for a shamanic practitioner,
[5:14] and yes, we do have one up on the FSS
[5:17] website and the code of
[5:20] ethics for social work
[5:22] are a little bit different. And I want to
[5:24] make sure that I'm
[5:26] operating within a particular frame
[5:28] because that provides a container for
[5:30] whatever the work is that I'm doing.
[5:34] The modalities I use, you know, using
[5:38] core shamanism and using
[5:42] the modalities of clinical
[5:43] social work, I use a lot of EMDR, I do a
[5:47] lot of structural
[5:48] dissociation work, you know,
[5:50] my therapeutic modalities, they have a
[5:52] particular structure in a particular
[5:54] frame. And trying to
[5:57] crash two frames together doesn't
[6:01] necessarily make beautiful artwork, it
[6:04] might make a car wreck. And
[6:05] so I want to be really cautious about
[6:08] keeping the frame that I'm in. And so if
[6:11] I have somebody who's
[6:13] seeing me for therapy, and who's
[6:14] interested in shamanic work, I have
[6:17] people I can refer to. And
[6:18] if I have someone who's seen me for
[6:19] shamanic work, and I think
[6:21] could benefit from therapy,
[6:23] I have therapists in my community who
[6:25] know what I do and who are willing to
[6:27] accept those referrals.
[6:29] Thank you for that. And I could only say
[6:32] yes to all of that.
[6:34] That's how I operate as well
[6:36] as a psychiatrist. And, you know, and
[6:38] sometimes people don't know
[6:39] what they want. They've been
[6:41] drawn to you for some reason, and I'm
[6:42] sure this probably happens
[6:44] as well, where you're doing a
[6:46] some type of contact to figure out how
[6:49] can I best serve this
[6:50] individual considering their
[6:53] experiences in life. Yeah, I mean, I
[6:58] can't say it's never. But in all the
[7:01] years that I've been
[7:02] doing both, I think I've combined with
[7:05] one person. And that was
[7:09] somebody that was really able to maintain boundaries without a lot of
[7:15] assistance from me. And I work with people that do
[7:18] need assistance from me
[7:19] to maintain boundaries. And
[7:20] it's my job to maintain. That's what my
[7:23] social work code of
[7:24] ethics says is that it's on me.
[7:27] And I you know, I can't it's not
[7:29] reasonable for me to expect somebody who
[7:31] isn't a social worker to
[7:32] know what my code of ethics says. So in
[7:36] order to in order to even dabble in
[7:42] something that's very
[7:43] different from what we've been doing, it
[7:46] needs to be somebody who is
[7:48] really able to do that. And
[7:50] in all the years I've been doing this,
[7:52] it's been one person. So when we think
[7:57] about your space now,
[7:58] I've had the luxury of training under you
[8:01] and have been able to
[8:02] experience your space. Tell
[8:05] our listeners a little bit about your
[8:07] training facility and how
[8:08] you navigate all of that.
[8:10] Sure. So I have recently launched a
[8:22] health collective along
[8:24] with a business partner who
[8:25] has also done some shamanic trainings
[8:27] with me and is also a clinical social
[8:30] worker and she's also a
[8:32] yoga instructor. So we have purchased an
[8:37] older mansion that's been
[8:41] transformed over the years
[8:43] and has had internal renovations. And so
[8:45] it has a training space. So
[8:48] at this point, we are on a
[8:50] little less than an acre and a half right
[8:52] in the middle of East
[8:54] Hartford, well towards the
[8:56] Manchester end of East Hartford,
[8:58] Connecticut. So we are in a city in a
[9:00] residential neighborhood
[9:03] and we have beautiful trees and nearby
[9:07] there's smaller tributaries
[9:10] running to the Connecticut
[9:11] River. And you know, there's a there's
[9:15] there's a lovely residential
[9:17] neighborhood around us. We're
[9:18] right next to East Hartford Middle
[9:20] School. So anybody that has
[9:23] a two o'clock session with me
[9:25] at 2:50, we see the stream of middle
[9:28] schoolers going past my
[9:29] window heading to heading to
[9:31] wherever they're going. But what's been
[9:35] so rewarding about
[9:38] owning my own space, which
[9:41] when I've trained with faculty who own
[9:44] their own space, it was people teaching
[9:46] out of their houses.
[9:49] And my house is not conducive to that.
[9:51] When I'm online, sometimes
[9:52] I'll be home and sometimes
[9:53] I'll be in the office. But what's been so
[9:56] lovely about owning a space
[9:58] is really being able to get
[10:01] to know the land and work with the land
[10:04] in a way where I don't feel like I'm
[10:07] going to have to say
[10:08] goodbye or there's going to be turmoil in
[10:13] terms of rent hikes or the
[10:17] owner of the space wanting to
[10:19] go a different direction. So that's been
[10:21] really deeply rewarding.
[10:23] And I actually had a student
[10:25] who did maybe my first workshop in that
[10:29] space, which was the
[10:30] beginning of 2024. And then I taught
[10:33] spirits of nature right after that,
[10:34] because it was important for me to really
[10:37] have people on the land
[10:39] because I was new to the land and and the
[10:41] work was really new to
[10:42] the land. And she came back
[10:45] probably a year later and completely
[10:48] unprompted. She said, Alex, the land
[10:50] feels so much different.
[10:52] Wow. And that was deeply moving for me
[10:57] that someone else could
[10:58] feel the work we'd been doing.
[11:00] Yeah, the appreciation, the gratitude,
[11:03] the mutual respect. That really pays off.
[11:07] Wow, that's fantastic. Thank you for
[11:10] sharing that. Now, tell us a little bit
[11:14] you mentioned earlier
[11:16] Nan and David, some of your mentors, how
[11:18] have they influenced your approach to
[11:20] shamanism over the years?
[11:25] So I would say the biggest influence has
[11:29] been getting back
[11:30] outside. And I told you that as a
[11:32] kid, I was I was outside a lot. But at
[11:35] some point, that sort of got
[11:37] shut down. And I'm not sure
[11:39] exactly what happened. But I did stop
[11:44] going outside and talking to nature to
[11:46] the extent that I was.
[11:48] And I noticed it. I used to tell people
[11:53] where we do the residential
[11:55] programs on the east coast is
[11:57] in Virginia and the Blue Ridge Mountains.
[11:59] And there's a spot on the
[12:00] land where sort of part of
[12:02] my settling in is I go to that spot and I
[12:05] take a picture out
[12:06] over the mountains. And
[12:09] I used to tell people I do this. I've
[12:12] always done this every time I've come
[12:14] here. But I look back
[12:15] through my pictures. And in fact, that
[12:16] isn't the case. It started in
[12:20] the second year of the three
[12:22] year program that I started doing that.
[12:25] And so what I think has
[12:28] been the biggest influence
[12:31] of Nan in particular is getting me back
[12:34] outside. And she was someone
[12:36] who was so deeply connected
[12:38] to nature that that really made its way
[12:42] into my practice in a
[12:43] very profound way in terms of
[12:45] working with the land and communing and
[12:50] being in relationship with
[12:51] all the spirits around us.
[12:54] And I think of that as, you know, she's
[12:58] had so many influences on
[12:59] me. But I think that was really
[13:01] the biggest because that makes its way
[13:03] into my everyday life.
[13:05] Hmm. I love that. And I'm so glad you've
[13:08] been able to honor that knowledge by
[13:11] finding your way back
[13:12] outside. Fantastic. So shifting a little
[13:16] bit, and let's talk a little
[13:18] bit about working with your
[13:19] own ancestors, honoring the traditions of
[13:22] your own ancestry. How does
[13:25] that fit into your world? And
[13:26] is that still core shamanism? Great
[13:30] question. Working with
[13:32] ancestors is a really big part of
[13:34] work. I find that people who go deeply
[13:41] into this path tend to have
[13:43] affinities and different areas
[13:47] of the work that they really sink into.
[13:50] And for me, working with my
[13:52] ancestors has been a big part of
[13:55] my work. And I would say it's an affinity
[13:59] for me, along with
[14:01] divination, which is why we're talking
[14:04] about it. That's why we're here. But
[14:06] working with my ancestors
[14:08] has really been deeply healing
[14:11] because a lot of the more magical and
[14:18] more shamanic threads in
[14:19] my ancestry have been lost
[14:22] and been buried. That's been true for a
[14:24] lot of us. In my ancestry, I
[14:27] don't have to go quite as far
[14:29] as some people do, but my ancestors
[14:35] needed to assimilate to
[14:36] survive. And that means that a lot
[14:39] of what was there was not passed down to
[14:42] me by living ancestors. And
[14:46] I got a lot of family lore,
[14:48] and I got a lot of tradition and values
[14:53] that are specific to my culture. But
[14:58] there were things that
[14:59] didn't get that I really craved. And so
[15:03] being able to, from a
[15:05] core shamanic perspective,
[15:07] journey to the upper world and to the
[15:09] lower world and go to look for a
[15:12] particular kind of spirit,
[15:13] in this case looking for an ancestor from
[15:15] my lineage, has really
[15:17] been very deeply healing.
[15:19] And it's opened up a lot of areas of work
[15:22] that I would say aren't
[15:24] core. I've found them in a core way
[15:29] but they are specific to my culture. And
[15:33] in getting information from
[15:35] my ancestors and journeys,
[15:37] that's allowed me to go to texts and do
[15:40] research and talk to people
[15:42] who have more knowledge about
[15:44] this than I do and take that information,
[15:49] take it back to my
[15:50] ancestors and start to hone some of
[15:54] these ways of working. Oh, beautiful. So
[15:58] glad you were able to
[15:58] start with core shamanism,
[16:00] start with these very simple methods that
[16:03] we all begin with, but then
[16:05] take it in such a terrific
[16:07] direction. Thank you for sharing that.
[16:09] And I hope that inspires some folks to
[16:11] connect with their own
[16:12] ancestry. Yeah, I hope it does too. I
[16:16] have an in-person journey circle and
[16:19] we'll play with this
[16:21] sometimes. But I think what's so
[16:25] incredible about core
[16:26] shamanism is the way doors open.
[16:31] Right. And then we can take that and go
[16:35] where it is that we need to
[16:36] go with it. So it starts core.
[16:40] I don't remember who said this to me. I
[16:41] didn't make it up, but we
[16:43] all come from culture. And so
[16:46] find what is really our own individual
[16:50] shamanism. That's not core
[16:52] because it's unique to us,
[16:55] but the methods to get there are core.
[16:57] That might be an anism. I'm not sure.
[17:02] It could be. So as a faculty member and a
[17:06] member of the queer community,
[17:08] how do you see acceptance of the queer
[17:10] community in Western shamanic circles?
[17:15] It's really interesting because when I
[17:19] think about core
[17:20] shamanism and the fact that we are
[17:22] working with compassionate helping
[17:24] spirits whose only agenda is
[17:26] to alleviate suffering. For me,
[17:30] that brings acceptance and belonging and
[17:34] affirmation of whoever it is we are when we approach the spirit's
[17:39] and that's something that's deeply
[17:40] beautiful and very much needed
[17:44] for queer folks and also very
[17:47] affirming of our community. And I do find
[17:54] people who practice core
[17:55] shamanism who have that ethos and have that
[17:59] idea. What I also find is that there is a
[18:05] gender essentialism that
[18:09] has sort of made its way into
[18:12] really any non traditional. I want to
[18:20] phrase this a different way.
[18:22] Any sort of practice that is not
[18:25] traditionally religious
[18:27] that's practiced in the West. So
[18:31] you know the religions that we see, they
[18:34] have their own issues.
[18:36] That's beyond our scope today.
[18:39] But I think about the neo-pagan community
[18:44] and I think about the new age community.
[18:47] Those are not shamanism but I find that
[18:51] some of the gender essentialism
[18:55] in those communities has kind of leaked
[18:58] into ours. And do you see a way forward?
[19:06] Yes, I do. I think it's a winding road
[19:12] because we do bring
[19:17] ourselves into this work and that
[19:19] includes our prejudices. And so what I've
[19:23] seen is that people can feel deeply
[19:26] affirmed by this work
[19:28] and I've had a number of queer students
[19:31] and trans students and
[19:32] who feel affirmed and
[19:36] a lot of the time in circle it's we're
[19:38] all encircled to work
[19:39] with the spirits. And there's
[19:41] that sense of whoever we are we're
[19:43] accepted here in this circle
[19:44] and that's really beautiful.
[19:47] And sometimes and it's not frequent I'll
[19:51] have somebody come in
[19:52] that has these really
[19:56] intensely binary views. And what's so
[20:00] interesting to me about
[20:01] core shamanism is I find that
[20:03] binaries which were fuzzy for me to start
[20:05] with have gotten a lot
[20:07] more fuzzy because I'm getting
[20:09] this compassionate perspective. That as a
[20:12] human being with biases
[20:15] and opinions and experiences
[20:17] I don't have the capacity for that pure
[20:19] compassion. And so I get this other
[20:22] perspective and it helps me
[20:25] see things in a different light. But I
[20:28] have to be willing to
[20:29] release those biases in order to
[20:33] take on that compassionate perspective
[20:35] that I get from the spirits. Some people
[20:37] are just not willing
[20:38] to do that. And because we operate with
[20:44] permission I can't force
[20:47] them. And in the one or two times
[20:50] had it come into circle in that way. I
[20:52] don't find it productive to
[20:56] go down the rabbit hole with it
[20:58] because then we're having a debate. And
[21:00] it's it's just not what we're
[21:02] here for. I have to trust that
[21:06] people's biases will get alleviated as
[21:09] they continue with the work.
[21:12] I think that's a beautiful answer Alex
[21:14] and I appreciate it.
[21:16] What's also really interesting is when we
[21:20] think about gender and
[21:23] we think about how spirits
[21:24] present to us right. Many spirits are
[21:27] shape-shifting. They present it as a buck
[21:30] deer and now they're a
[21:32] divine feminine being in a humanoid form
[21:36] and moving back and forth
[21:38] where it where the gender
[21:41] isn't really that's relevant. You know
[21:45] it's so interesting when I get
[21:49] a gendered feel from a spirit right.
[21:52] Because if I'm outside
[21:53] and I'm talking to a tree
[21:57] on my property right. When you first come
[22:01] into my office space
[22:02] there's a gorgeous old oak tree
[22:05] and and a really really big and people
[22:09] are just drawn to the tree.
[22:10] When I first saw it when we
[22:11] first looked at the place with with our
[22:13] realtor I gasped literally
[22:16] because this tree is is so
[22:18] incredible. But I get a gendered feel
[22:21] from this tree. And when I
[22:22] have students that come back
[22:24] they develop a relationship and I've won
[22:27] in particular that as
[22:28] soon as he gets on the
[22:29] property he goes and he visits his friend
[22:31] the tree. That's just
[22:32] what he does. I think that's
[22:33] beautiful. I haven't asked him if he gets
[22:36] a gender. It's not important.
[22:38] But how do you get a gendered
[22:40] feel from a tree or from a stone right.
[22:44] It speaks to this experience of gender
[22:47] being something that
[22:48] is beyond us but also something that
[22:52] isn't so simple as biology. Right.
[22:58] Absolutely. You know
[23:00] in many cultures even languages they've
[23:03] had they've they've felt
[23:05] the need to choose like
[23:06] ships are feminine. Right. How did they
[23:09] come up with that. I don't
[23:11] know. Right. Yeah it's funny
[23:13] I speak decent Spanish you know a little
[23:16] bit of Hebrew a little bit
[23:17] of Yiddish. These are all
[23:19] gendered languages. And it's you know
[23:22] it's hard as someone
[23:24] who's a native English speaker
[23:26] trying to learn a gendered language
[23:28] because we don't have
[23:29] that concept. Right. So
[23:32] we think about all of the ways that
[23:34] gender manifests for us
[23:36] in our human experience.
[23:38] And then when you add shamanism on top of
[23:41] it how do we experience
[23:43] that when we are dealing with
[23:45] beings that don't have a body. When we're
[23:47] dealing with with spirits
[23:49] of nature and we get this gendered experience
[23:53] you know and what is it that we're
[23:55] experiencing. Yeah. And and it
[23:59] may be you know because again
[24:00] we have we bring our own life lived
[24:02] experiences biases
[24:05] everything prejudices everything else
[24:07] comes with us as part of our package.
[24:09] That does not mean that
[24:10] we can't grow learn evolve
[24:12] be more open with with shamanism by our
[24:16] side. So thank you for that
[24:17] discussion. I do appreciate
[24:19] yeah. So different question as far as how
[24:24] do you see the role of shamanism
[24:27] evolving in the modern world. So looking
[24:31] forward it's really
[24:35] interesting. I've started to notice
[24:38] that I have a lot of friends who are more
[24:42] distressed about the
[24:44] state of the world than I am.
[24:46] And I wanted to interrogate what that was
[24:50] about because I was raised
[24:52] to read the newspaper and
[24:54] I don't want to have my head in the sand.
[24:56] But what it is and I figured it out
[24:59] pretty quickly what it
[25:00] is is that working with core shamanism
[25:03] has given me a much longer
[25:05] view of you well past my own life
[25:08] time. And what that means is I am less
[25:11] distressed about the
[25:15] everyday and it's not that my heart
[25:16] doesn't ache when I see suffering in the
[25:18] world because it does. But
[25:21] I am not so reactive to it.
[25:24] I don't find myself on a roller coaster
[25:27] with the news. Thank you
[25:31] for that. I really do feel it.
[25:33] I'll qualify it. Sometimes I'm on a
[25:35] roller coaster but my
[25:36] roller coaster is is less deep
[25:39] plunges and loops. It's like a kitty
[25:42] roller coaster compared
[25:45] to some of the folks I see.
[25:46] And so where I see core shamanism having
[25:50] the potential to take us
[25:52] is in helping us to have
[25:55] a much longer view which I think is
[25:59] extremely helpful and also
[26:02] to have access to compassion
[26:04] that helps us to operate as better humans
[26:08] in the world and you know
[26:10] pick up any newspaper. You
[26:12] can see that we need that. We need deeper
[26:14] compassion but it also
[26:16] allows us to heal from
[26:19] what we are experiencing so
[26:21] that we aren't reacting
[26:24] to the past and to our own
[26:26] traumas. We are able to respond to what's
[26:30] in front of us. Absolutely.
[26:32] And with some of the workshops
[26:34] especially such as local and global
[26:37] change and and creativity
[26:40] and personal transformation
[26:44] those workshops all help us build skills
[26:49] in our real world today
[26:52] moving forward to be of assistance
[26:55] to figure out more ways to be supporting
[26:58] what's really near and dear
[26:59] and important to us. And so
[27:01] I really do like that answer Alex. Thank
[27:03] you. Now I would like to shift a little
[27:06] bit now into talking
[27:08] divination. So help us understand for
[27:12] those unfamiliar what is divination and
[27:15] what is it used for?
[27:19] So divination is from our perspective
[27:23] from a core shamanic
[27:24] perspective divination is
[27:27] going to the spirits for answers to
[27:29] questions and doing that in whatever
[27:34] there's so many different metods of divination
[27:36] so however we do that going to the
[27:39] spirits for answers. Very simple very
[27:42] straightforward. And how
[27:44] is that not quite the same as fortune
[27:46] telling? So when I think
[27:48] of fortune telling I think
[27:50] specifically of the future and there are
[27:54] different methods of it and
[27:56] people work from different
[27:58] paradigms. So some people who are not
[28:02] operating in a
[28:03] shamanic paradigm still have
[28:06] the idea that they're working with
[28:08] spirits. Some don't. Some are
[28:12] coming more from an intuitive
[28:14] perspective or an interpretive
[28:16] perspective like someone working with
[28:18] tarot who is looking at
[28:23] the cards and knows the numerology of it
[28:26] and knows the symbology of
[28:27] it and is starting from that
[28:29] place and maybe engaging some intuition.
[28:32] From our perspective
[28:33] we're asking the spirits.
[28:36] Got it. And what makes advanced shamanic
[28:40] divination training an advanced course?
[28:45] So the word advanced is newer and it's
[28:48] because we have an online divination
[28:52] workshop. And I believe
[28:55] there are no practices in common. There
[28:58] might be there might be one
[28:59] practice in common between the two of them
[29:02] but what makes the advanced in-person
[29:06] training advanced is if you
[29:08] do take that online divination
[29:11] this is going much deeper into the
[29:13] practice of going to
[29:15] spirits for answers to questions.
[29:18] What do you like most about this
[29:20] workshop? This is going to seem like a
[29:22] silly answer but I like
[29:25] to play with stuff. I am very much a
[29:29] stuff person. I work with
[29:32] power objects a lot in my practice
[29:35] and advanced divination is a doorway into
[29:40] that kind of work where
[29:41] we can start to develop
[29:43] relationships with the spirits of power
[29:46] objects and use them for
[29:47] divination. And for those who
[29:50] may not quite understand what that means
[29:51] can you describe what a power
[29:53] object is? Sure so I'm using
[29:55] the word stuff a little bit as a joke.
[29:58] I'll also use the word power
[30:00] finalia. I didn't make that up
[30:02] somebody said it to me but I like it. But
[30:06] what makes an object a power
[30:08] object is the relationship.
[30:10] For me relationship is the foundation of
[30:14] the work that we do and
[30:15] that's our relationship
[30:17] with helping spirits. And the reason they
[30:21] are helping spirits and
[30:22] not just random spirits is
[30:24] that we have this relationship. And so
[30:28] everything that is is alive and has
[30:30] spirit that's part of the
[30:32] shamanic world view. And so when we have
[30:35] an object that we work with for
[30:37] divination that we develop relationship
[30:40] over time the spirit of that object
[30:43] becomes a part of the work
[30:45] and becomes a helping spirit
[30:48] in its own way. We're working with the
[30:50] middle world spirit but
[30:54] the spirit of the object does
[30:56] participate in the process because we
[30:58] have this relationship.
[31:01] Wonderful and and power objects
[31:04] really have their place in your shamanic
[31:06] practice in assisting
[31:09] the clients that you serve.
[31:11] So and this is of course something you
[31:12] learn more about in these workshops. Now
[31:15] a follow-up question
[31:17] what do students seem to like most about
[31:20] this workshop from your
[31:21] experience as a faculty?
[31:24] So I tell people that some workshops go
[31:28] very deep and are very
[31:29] profound and some are more
[31:31] playful and fun. And this one I think can
[31:37] be quite playful as we're as
[31:40] we're doing this work. Some of
[31:41] them can be both. I find extraction for
[31:46] example to be both deep and
[31:47] playful. But and this workshop
[31:50] can be too because as we get answers to
[31:55] the questions that are on
[31:56] our hearts that can be its
[31:59] kind of healing. So there's a lot of
[32:04] profundity in this one
[32:05] but I think it really can be
[32:08] playful as we get to know these new
[32:11] methods because what this
[32:12] workshop is is really a survey
[32:14] of divination methods and that involves a
[32:19] lot of experimentation
[32:21] which you could also call play.
[32:23] We don't call it that as much as adults
[32:26] but what are children
[32:28] doing when they're playing?
[32:28] They're experimenting and they're
[32:30] learning about the world
[32:31] and so we are learning about
[32:34] the many many facets of what divination
[32:39] can look like and that can really be a
[32:42] very joyful experience.
[32:46] I wholeheartedly agree and I know I
[32:49] remember some very meaningful
[32:51] experiences especially from the
[32:53] first time I took this workshop but can
[32:55] you share a meaningful
[32:56] experience for you that stayed with
[32:58] one of the times you've taken this
[32:59] workshop? Sure so when I've taken this
[33:04] workshop I especially as
[33:07] a faculty member knowing that I have to
[33:09] show up with some questions it's it's
[33:13] been really meaningful
[33:14] to me to receive answers to things that
[33:20] are on my heart and one in particular
[33:25] that pops into my mind, I was
[33:28] training and there was another faculty
[33:30] member there and we
[33:31] happened to partner up for this
[33:33] particular practice but I had something
[33:35] going on in my life that
[33:37] was bugging me it was sort of
[33:39] sort of kind of gnawing at my brain
[33:43] background and so because
[33:46] she knew about it already I
[33:48] formulated a question about it and what
[33:53] she and her spirits did
[33:55] was they just pointed me in a
[33:57] completely different direction and said
[33:58] it's not helping you to to
[34:01] focus on this let it great let
[34:04] it go and I think what's so interesting
[34:07] about doing real
[34:10] divination working with the spirits
[34:12] is sometimes you get an answer like that
[34:15] which is this isn't the
[34:17] right question this isn't this
[34:19] you're going the wrong direction right
[34:21] and it's not that it's not
[34:22] compassionate but it's not just
[34:25] telling me what I want to hear and I
[34:27] always know I'm getting a real answer
[34:29] when I want to hear or not
[34:31] something I expect and so that really
[34:34] jumped out at me and and and
[34:37] feeling the power as she was
[34:40] saying the words in in what she was
[34:42] telling me and saying just
[34:44] sort of let it go wow that's not
[34:47] always my strong suit letting it go but
[34:50] it just it just pointed me a
[34:51] completely different direction
[34:53] it was really really helpful nice now I
[34:57] know these these various
[34:59] exercises and yes I would agree
[35:01] some of it does feel like play and that
[35:04] meaning that it can be
[35:05] really come very easily it feels
[35:07] almost natural very straightforward some
[35:11] of the methods though
[35:13] especially on your first try because
[35:14] most of the time the vast majority of
[35:16] students when they're doing
[35:19] some of these methods with
[35:20] certain crystals certain found objects
[35:23] with certain other spirits and we'll
[35:27] leave it at that just for
[35:29] not having to bring that complexity into
[35:31] the question but some
[35:33] things tend to be really easy
[35:34] and others can be almost impossible or
[35:37] really challenging the
[35:38] first go they may become easier
[35:40] with practice but but you know
[35:44] unfortunately sometimes
[35:45] people think that all these things
[35:47] should be just easy and natural so how do
[35:50] you help students along
[35:52] the way when they may find
[35:55] one of the many practices a bust it's
[36:00] hard I nothing happened
[36:02] I don't know I don't know
[36:03] if this is right at all I feel like my
[36:05] conscious mind got in the
[36:06] way how do you help them out
[36:09] so I have a two-part answer and it might
[36:12] sound like a contradiction
[36:14] but I don't think it is for
[36:15] the for the therapists out there you
[36:17] could call this a dialectic if that if
[36:20] that helps you it's a
[36:22] therapy joke anyway um one of the parts
[36:27] one one thing is that we
[36:30] have affinities for particular
[36:32] methods I could I can tell you right now
[36:34] what my primary divination
[36:36] method is and what my secondary
[36:38] is and and what I use most of the time
[36:41] that's because it's
[36:42] something that I just took to and
[36:45] always liked and it's it felt like a fit
[36:52] and so I tell people yes pay
[36:54] attention to what feels like
[36:56] it comes really naturally and what feels
[36:58] like maybe it doesn't because
[37:00] that might be a little bit of
[37:01] a clue about what's your method and
[37:05] what's not your method and at the same
[37:09] time give everything
[37:12] a try because some things take time to
[37:17] really become a part of
[37:20] your practice or for you to
[37:21] really get it and the example I give with
[37:24] this actually comes from
[37:25] the three-year program and
[37:26] I'm not going to name the practice but
[37:29] there was a practice
[37:30] that my three-year program
[37:32] just we we couldn't ask too many
[37:35] questions we just kept going and finally
[37:37] Nan said enough I'm not
[37:38] anymore about it find a partner and we
[37:40] said Nan but Nan she said no
[37:42] enough find a partner because
[37:44] we we were no longer asking helpful
[37:46] questions we were just having angst as a
[37:49] collective and so the
[37:51] first time I did it it really felt like a
[37:53] struggle and I thought well
[37:56] okay I guess that was sort of
[37:58] interesting but it was a struggle and
[38:01] then I'll say maybe eight
[38:04] or ten years later um I'm the
[38:06] assistant for the three-year programs on
[38:08] the east coast and when we
[38:10] have an odd number I partner
[38:12] with somebody if it's a partner exercise
[38:15] so I needed to partner with
[38:16] somebody for this practice
[38:19] and I hadn't tried it again I didn't take
[38:22] my own advice and so this
[38:25] was really the second time I
[38:26] had done it and it just blew my mind
[38:31] first of all it came so
[38:33] much more easily and also I got
[38:36] so much information from it and it wasn't
[38:40] a divination practice but
[38:41] I got so much information
[38:44] from it and I felt so much power my
[38:46] partner actually leans back
[38:48] because she could she could
[38:50] feel what was what was building up
[38:52] between me and my spirit and it was a
[38:55] really good lesson for me
[38:57] that over time as we change and we grow
[39:02] it's good to give some of
[39:03] these things a second try
[39:05] because you never really know when
[39:09] something is gonna click
[39:12] couldn't agree more I I will share
[39:15] that the very first time now subsequent
[39:19] times have been easier
[39:20] but the first time I did
[39:23] work with found objects I I felt it was a
[39:26] complete bust I felt my
[39:28] conscious mind was just
[39:31] yeah it I was not getting the information
[39:34] it was it felt just just felt
[39:38] wrong it just didn't work but over time I
[39:44] collected a group of fossils from my farm
[39:49] and they are extraordinary to work with
[39:54] and give such wonderful information
[39:58] and so I've I've found a way to make that
[40:01] practice work I'm so happy
[40:05] to have that yeah see that's
[40:07] that's my method and I have I have one
[40:10] set that's that's gone well beyond eight
[40:12] we tell you to bring
[40:13] eight small objects to the workshop it's
[40:15] gone well beyond eight and
[40:17] then I have one in the office
[40:19] I use just for clients that are coming in
[40:22] for healing and so that's
[40:25] that's always been since
[40:27] I learned it that's been my method nice
[40:31] so with that said it
[40:34] sounds like we've you know
[40:37] we've we've both shared how we've grown
[40:39] with this how do you encourage students
[40:43] other than practicing after this workshop
[40:48] do you find that
[40:49] there's anything that really
[40:50] helps students stick with those methods
[40:53] try them again yeah so I I tell people
[40:57] right from the basic
[40:58] workshop or the shamanic journey online
[41:00] that the most important work
[41:02] you do is the work you do on
[41:05] with your spirits and keeping up the
[41:07] practice I am a I would say a
[41:10] semi daily practice person I
[41:12] I don't know that it's seven days a week
[41:16] but having what I call a
[41:18] daily practice that this
[41:20] is the practice this is what it looks
[41:21] like and this is the frame
[41:23] of it because as I said I'm
[41:25] I'm a ritual person that really deepens
[41:29] the work for me and I
[41:31] encourage people to find what that
[41:33] looks like for them and to really
[41:35] practice and that includes
[41:37] things that we teach well before
[41:38] you get to advanced divination because
[41:41] the work that you do with
[41:42] your spirits and the building up
[41:44] of those relationships is what makes
[41:46] these practices start to really take on
[41:50] life in your own practice
[41:53] but I also tell people you can do
[41:55] divination for yourself or for other
[41:58] people or for the community
[42:00] and it's not that you can't make a
[42:02] decision on your own without
[42:04] your spirits you have to be able
[42:05] to make decisions on your own right but
[42:10] when you really start to
[42:11] practice and to get in the mindset
[42:13] that you're not in it alone and when you
[42:15] have something where you
[42:16] don't know which fork in the
[42:17] roads take you can ask your spirits about
[42:20] it that starts to
[42:22] integrate divination into your life
[42:26] in a way that's not oh I have to practice
[42:28] this because Alex said
[42:29] I have to practice it
[42:31] it's what does divination look like when
[42:35] I integrate it into my own life
[42:39] wonderful thank you so much for that Alex
[42:42] and I really hope that
[42:44] this discussion albeit brief
[42:47] helps our listeners to recognize that
[42:50] this workshop has real
[42:52] potential to build your
[42:54] relationships with your helping spirits
[42:56] in ways that you may not
[42:58] have expected may not have even
[43:00] thought possible and that each time that
[43:03] you're journeying and
[43:04] asking questions for yourself
[43:07] for pets for people for the planet that
[43:10] you are building your
[43:12] divination skills adding the
[43:14] techniques in this workshop it's like
[43:17] adding tools to the
[43:18] toolbox the tool belt that you've
[43:20] already been building with your journey
[43:22] practice any final words
[43:25] Alex that you'd like to share
[43:28] yeah I what I've seen is that the healing
[43:32] methods get a lot of
[43:33] attention yes and yes
[43:35] healing is important we have a tremendous
[43:37] need for shamanic healing
[43:38] in our society in our in our
[43:41] neighborhoods right but divination is at
[43:47] least as important
[43:48] because we need to be able to do
[43:50] divination in order to do healing because
[43:52] we need to ask what does this
[43:54] person need and a lot of the
[43:56] time when people come into my office it
[43:59] turns out they have a
[44:00] question and I'll say do you
[44:05] are you looking for healing about this
[44:07] issue or do you want answers to these
[44:09] questions and so a lot
[44:11] of the time my healing sessions turn into
[44:13] divination sessions
[44:14] because and I know where I
[44:17] got this I got this one from Susan Opie a
[44:21] faculty member at the
[44:21] foundation that sometimes the
[44:25] divination is the healing that the
[44:28] answers to questions are
[44:30] healing we can't be really really
[44:34] effective healers if we aren't effective
[44:36] diviners because we have to
[44:38] be able to go to our spirits and determine
[44:41] what's needed and also it's important on
[44:46] top of that because
[44:47] sometimes that's what people really
[44:49] need oh and with that we will close Alex
[44:54] thank you so much for your
[44:56] insights your wisdom sharing
[44:58] your lived experience with us today if
[45:01] you'd like to learn more about this
[45:03] workshop or any other
[45:04] workshop or working with Alex please
[45:07] check us out at
[45:08] shamanism.org thank you, thank you Kerri
[45:12] [Music]