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Inspiration

Self-Help Has It Backwards: A Buddhist Nun on Letting Go

Ten Percent Happier
Ten Percent Happier
Oct 28, 2026
8 min read

From 10% Happier

Watch · 7

Near the start of a long conversation on the 10% Happier podcast, host Dan Harris reads a sentence back to his guest the way a producer plays back a take he wants to get right. Most of the self-improvement conversation, he says, comes down to one question: how do I become a better, calmer, more effective version of myself? The guest, Ayya Santacitta, a Western Buddhist nun trained in England and Asia in the lineage of the Thai forest master Ajahn Chah, says that is the wrong question. Her argument is that the path is not an addition project. It is a subtraction project, a slow loosening of the conditioning, expectations, and fears that bend how we see ourselves and the world. What follows unpacks that argument, which runs through her own life story, a precise account of what "projecting" means, a reframing of heartbreak, and a practical case for patience as a working skill rather than a virtue for elders.

Read · 7 sections

Why did a successful artist walk away to become a nun?

The shape of Ayya's path is not the usual spiritual-seeker story. She was not disillusioned with a failing career. By her own account she had already done the things she always wanted to do. She worked in avant-garde theater and studied cultural anthropology, and she describes the dance-theater company she worked with as very successful, making productions that gave audiences a real lift of the heart. What bothered her was what happened afterward. "When people go home, there wasn't a practice," she told Dan, "to continue to be have the heart in this open state" that the art had opened (10% Happier podcast, 2:20 into the conversation, where she describes the search).

The turning point came when she was 28. Her mother died suddenly in a horse-riding accident. "After that," she said, "I felt a very strong need to understand what this is all about." That need led her, through what she calls a chain of so-called coincidences, to a monastery in southern Thailand, where she met a teacher in his mid-80s whose presence convinced her he could teach her something important. She also describes a detour that did not go well. When a calling to ordain frightened her, she married quickly, hoping it would spare her from ordaining. "It wasn't a very good choice," she said plainly. About a year and a half later she was in a monastery anyway.

Dan pressed on a word she had used: instability. He suggested that the death of her mother and the sense that achievement did not settle her might be the root of her commitment, not a footnote to it. That reading matters for the rest of the conversation, because it recasts spiritual seeking not as a hobby of the comfortable but as a response to the unreliability of life itself.

Is self-improvement the wrong frame for the spiritual path?

Ayya's critique is specific. In her experience, people beginning practice tend to assume the work is about gaining: knowing more, becoming more informed, improving the self. In her view, the actual movement is in the other direction. "It's about letting go," she said. "It's about letting go of conditioning, which doesn't serve us." Conditioning, in her telling, is what keeps us limited and shapes the way we experience both the world and ourselves.

That is why she says the first task is to slow down. Guidance, teachers, and retreats are not there to load you up with new content. They are there so you can notice what your mind has been doing all along. This is a demanding distinction, and it is one that many contemporary wellness cultures blur. A self-improvement project keeps the self at the center and simply upgrades it. A practice of letting go asks whether the self being upgraded was ever accurate to begin with.

What does "projecting unacknowledged patterns onto experience" actually mean?

This was the phrase Dan asked her to unpack, and her answer is the most useful part of the episode for anyone who has ever felt that a situation keeps repeating itself. Her example is autobiographical. She grew up in a small hotel in Austria, and as a girl she and her brother were left alone a great deal. As the older one, she felt responsible for him. That sense of responsibility did not stay in childhood. It became a lens. Whatever happened in front of her was filtered through an old assumption that she had to hold things together, whether or not the present moment required it.

The point is that the pattern is not the event. It is the story laid over the event, usually without our noticing. A projected pattern feels like the way things simply are. Practice, in this framing, is the discipline of seeing the overlay as an overlay. You cannot drop what you have not acknowledged, which is why she keeps returning to the idea that the mind must be slowed enough to see itself working.

Can a childhood role follow you into a monastery?

Ayya is candid that it did. The responsible older sibling did not disappear when she shaved her head. It reappeared in monastic life, where she found herself taking on the role of the one who keeps things in order. The comedy in her telling is part of the lesson. The pattern is so familiar to her that she can describe it with affection, and that affection is what makes it possible to see it clearly rather than defend it.

For a general reader, the takeaway is practical. Spiritual training is not a clean reset. Old roles migrate into new settings. The question is whether you can recognize the role when it shows up in your relationships, your work, or your sangha, and whether you can set it down without self-punishment.

Can heartbreak be a spiritual opportunity?

Dan's intro flagged one of the episode's stronger claims: the upside of having your heart broken. Ayya's position is that heartbreak, though painful, can crack open the defenses that keep us from seeing clearly. Dan's own panic attack appears in the episode notes as a case study of this process, and the notes also cite a line from Joseph Goldstein, "Don't waste your suffering," as a guiding principle. The conversation treats suffering not as a sign of failure but as material the practice can use. Ayya also says broken hearts can be very kind in a way that is hard to see while you are inside them.

The episode also draws on Ajahn Chah's distinction between two kinds of suffering: the kind that goes around in circles, and the kind that leads out. The difference is not the intensity of the pain. It is whether the pain is being met with awareness and allowed to teach, or being fed by the same reactive stories that produced it.

How do you respond instead of react?

Ayya describes a pattern most people will recognize: the urge to act immediately, to resolve discomfort the moment it appears. Her teaching is that the urge can be acknowledged without being obeyed. Her description of practice is to notice the impulse, stay with the breath or whatever your object of attention is, and let the urge come and go. Those few seconds are where response becomes possible. The difference between a reaction and a response is, in her framing, the difference between a habit running the show and a choice being made. She connects this to ordinary life, including the kind of exchange that can either save or strain a marriage.

Dan's introduction names two more practical threads. Patience, he noted, "is not, as she says, just for old ladies." She treats it as a serious skill. Impatience, in the same framing, is closely tied to the fear of uncertainty. When we rush to resolve the unknown, we are often trying to escape the discomfort of not knowing. Patience is the capacity to stay in that discomfort long enough to see what it is.

Where to go from here

If this conversation lands for you, start small and specific. Watch for the moments when you reach for a quick fix, and ask what you are trying to avoid not knowing. Notice where an old role, like the responsible older sibling or the fixer, is quietly steering a current situation. Pay attention to heartbreak, your own or someone else's, as material rather than a verdict.

For further reading, Ayya's book, What Are You Waiting For?, is the natural next step, since the podcast can only sample a teaching built over decades. The episode itself covers more ground than this article can hold, including devotion, the human realm as a place to practice, and the Buddha and Ananda exchange on friendship as the whole of the path, all of which are outlined in the episode notes. Listen with a notebook. The most useful thing she offers may be the question she keeps returning to: not what you should add, but what you have been carrying that you might finally set down.

Ayya lives and teaches from the Aloka Earth Room in San Rafael, California.

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Transcript

[0:03] Hey everybody, welcome to the 10%

[0:05] Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Today

[0:07] we are going to talk to a very wise and

[0:09] very funny Buddhist nun whose name is

[0:12] Ayya Santacitta. We're going to talk

[0:14] about what we're getting wrong about

[0:16] self-improvement,

[0:17] uh the upside of having your heart

[0:19] broken,

[0:21] uh dropping our self-limiting stories,

[0:24] uh the fact that patience is not, as she

[0:27] says, just for old ladies, how to

[0:29] tolerate uncertainty, uh tuning into uh

[0:34] never-enoughness as a way to turn

[0:36] insufficiency to your advantage. As you

[0:38] can tell, it's a it's a wide-ranging and

[0:41] really interesting and really useful

[0:42] conversation. Just a little bit more

[0:44] about Ayya Santacitta before we dive in.

[0:46] She's a Western Buddhist nun who trained

[0:48] in England and in Asia, primarily in the

[0:51] lineage of uh a Thai master named Ajahn

[0:54] Chah. Uh she lives and teaches uh from

[0:57] the Aloka Earth Room in San Rafael,

[1:00] California, and she's written a book

[1:02] called uh What Are You Waiting For? Ayya

[1:05] Santacitta, welcome to the show.

[1:07] >> Thank you, Dan, for inviting me.

[1:09] >> I'm so glad you said yes. I have a bunch

[1:10] of things I want to talk to you about,

[1:11] but I'm just curious, just to get us

[1:13] started here, how, why, when did you

[1:16] become a nun?

[1:17] >> Uh you know, I became a nun in 1993,

[1:22] and it all began in 1988 when I met my

[1:26] first teacher in the forest of South

[1:30] Thailand,

[1:31] and you got really kind of increasingly

[1:34] more interested,

[1:36] and and then ended up becoming a novice

[1:39] in a international monastery north of

[1:42] London in the UK in 1993,

[1:46] where I trained for about

[1:48] 15 years, and then came here

[1:52] in 2009 to the US together with a

[1:56] colleague nun to uh start a monastery

[1:59] for nuns here.

[2:01] And we began in San Francisco

[2:03] in 2009.

[2:04] >> I'm just curious, this is a huge life

[2:07] decision to to

[2:09] shave your head and and put on robes and

[2:11] and leave the the quote-unquote regular

[2:14] world. What inspired that?

[2:16] >> I think what inspired that was, you

[2:18] know, on the one hand

[2:20] a real strong need for some kind of

[2:24] guidance or some kind of direction for

[2:28] my life because I had, you know, done

[2:31] all of the things I really always wanted

[2:33] to do. I was a worked in avant-garde

[2:36] theater. I studied cultural

[2:38] anthropology. These were the two things

[2:40] I always really wanted to do in my life,

[2:42] but then still

[2:44] I didn't feel I had arrived

[2:47] at a direction, you know, which I wanted

[2:50] to stay with.

[2:52] Because it didn't feel very

[2:55] stable to me. And then when I was 28, my

[2:59] mother suddenly died from a horse riding

[3:02] accident. And then after that, I felt a

[3:05] very strong need, you know, to

[3:06] understand what this is all about.

[3:09] And and that's how I found my first

[3:11] teacher through a chain of so-called

[3:14] coincidence which probably weren't, you

[3:16] know, but I stumbled into that monastery

[3:19] in it was about 4 hours north of the

[3:22] Malaysian border.

[3:23] And and there was this teacher, he was

[3:26] in his mid-80s.

[3:28] And I immediately

[3:30] understood upon seeing his presence and

[3:33] the way how he conducted himself that he

[3:36] could teach me something really

[3:38] important. And then at one point I

[3:40] started to feel a calling, you know, to

[3:42] become a nun and was really scared of

[3:45] that.

[3:46] And then I quickly got married because I

[3:48] thought that would help me, you know, to

[3:50] not have to ordain.

[3:52] It wasn't a very good choice. It was a

[3:54] bit haphazard and quick. So then 1 and

[3:57] 1/2 years later, I ended up in the

[3:59] monastery anyway.

[4:02] And then, you know, I didn't want to

[4:03] train in Thailand. I wanted to train,

[4:06] you know, with people from a similar

[4:08] culture than my own. And that took me

[4:10] then to England. The abbot in that

[4:13] monastery was actually from Washington.

[4:14] He was from Seattle.

[4:16] Ajahn Sumedho, quite a well-known

[4:18] teacher.

[4:20] And yeah, I

[4:21] I learned the trade in his monastery.

[4:25] And then left.

[4:28] Later on because there was not the

[4:31] opportunity for women to have full

[4:33] ordination. We were, you know, perpetual

[4:36] novices at that monastery. And I didn't

[4:38] really like that after a certain time.

[4:42] And now I'm a fully ordained Buddhist

[4:44] nun. I'm what's called a Bhikkhuni in

[4:47] the kind of Pali language.

[4:49] >> Well, I'm glad you're fully ordained.

[4:50] And I have

[4:52] um

[4:53] a lot of

[4:54] negative feelings about the the lineages

[4:57] that do not fully ordain women. Um I

[5:00] want to go back and also uh just note

[5:03] that I'm sorry to hear about what

[5:04] happened with your mother. And uh sorry

[5:06] about the divorce. And it sounds like

[5:08] there was a lot of

[5:09] a lot of stuff in there. Um there was

[5:12] something you said in the middle of your

[5:13] answer though that struck me as perhaps

[5:16] significant. You used the word unstable,

[5:19] I think. I'm wondering whether that

[5:21] might have been at the heart of your

[5:23] desire to

[5:26] spend your life in

[5:28] deep engagement with the Dharma. To, in

[5:30] other words, to become a nun. Because

[5:33] the death of your mother and uh

[5:36] really spoke to life's instability. The

[5:38] fact that you had achieved what you

[5:39] wanted to achieve in your studies and

[5:42] and in the world of dance, and yet

[5:44] weren't fully satisfied, also speaks to

[5:46] instability and um unsatisfactory the

[5:50] unsatisfactory nature of existence. So,

[5:52] I'm wondering if there's something in

[5:53] there that that is worth mining.

[5:55] >> And I think back

[5:57] you know, on on my times in the theater,

[5:59] it was a very successful avant-garde

[6:01] dance theater, and we really made

[6:04] beautiful productions where people got a

[6:06] lot of uplift, you know, for their

[6:08] heart, and a lot of beauty, a lot of uh

[6:12] magic, you know, you could say. But

[6:14] then, you know, when people go home,

[6:16] there wasn't a practice, you know, to

[6:18] continue to be

[6:21] have the heart in this open state, you

[6:24] know, which could

[6:26] connect with the beauty of life,

[6:28] building on that experience, you know,

[6:30] which art was able to instigate in

[6:33] people.

[6:34] Also, you know, studying cultural

[6:35] anthropology, I traveled very early in

[6:38] my life with my parents to Africa

[6:40] several times, and saw people on

[6:43] ancestral lands, how they how they were,

[6:46] how they walked, how they conducted

[6:48] their lives, and it

[6:50] gave me that deep um feeling, you know,

[6:52] that my culture had lost a groundedness

[6:56] on the earth, which was very significant

[6:59] loss. And then I went to universities

[7:02] and

[7:03] found out that they didn't really answer

[7:05] those questions, you know. So, there was

[7:07] something deeper. And then when I met my

[7:09] first teacher, Ajahn Buddhadasa,

[7:12] I had a feeling immediately he knows

[7:14] what I'm searching.

[7:15] And then, you know, as I started to

[7:18] learn about Buddhism, it became clear to

[7:21] me that there were a lot of layers of

[7:23] conditioning, assumption, expectations,

[7:27] desires, and fears, you know, which were

[7:30] kind of warping my experience.

[7:32] >> Well, thank you for humoring me while I

[7:34] um explored your

[7:36] your biography. Let me turn to our uh

[7:39] agenda such as it is for today. In

[7:41] preparation for this conversation,

[7:42] you've had um some conversations with

[7:45] Marisa Schnejderman, who's our senior

[7:47] producer, and I want to read back to you

[7:50] one of the lines that leapt out at me.

[7:52] Most of the self-improvement

[7:54] conversation uh asks the same question.

[7:58] How do I become a better, calmer, more

[8:00] effective version of myself?

[8:02] And

[8:04] your point is that that's the wrong

[8:06] question.

[8:07] >> What I was to see from teaching

[8:08] retreats, you know, and then having

[8:10] conversations with people who I mentor,

[8:12] that in the beginning of the path,

[8:14] people often have,

[8:16] you know, the idea that this is all

[8:18] about gaining more, you know, becoming

[8:22] more informed, to know more, to improve

[8:26] yourself. Whereas my experience is

[8:29] actually it's about letting go. It's

[8:31] about letting go of conditioning, you

[8:33] know, which doesn't serve us.

[8:35] Conditioning which keeps us limited

[8:39] and has a limiting effect on the way how

[8:42] we experience the world and how we

[8:44] experience ourselves.

[8:46] So, it's it's very much more about

[8:50] uh you know, finding some kind of a

[8:52] guidance in order to slow down enough so

[8:56] we can see

[8:58] how our mind is basically projecting

[9:02] unacknowledged patterns onto experience.

[9:07] >> Projecting

[9:08] unacknowledged patterns onto experience.

[9:11] That's That sounds really interesting,

[9:13] but I'm not sure I understand what it

[9:14] means. Can you

[9:16] >> Yeah.

[9:16] >> help me?

[9:17] >> Yes, you know, for example, I you know,

[9:18] I grew up in a small hotel in Austria

[9:20] when I was a little girl, and me and my

[9:24] brother, we we were left alone quite a

[9:26] lot, you know? And I was the older one,

[9:29] so I always felt responsible, you know,

[9:31] for my brother. I felt responsible to

[9:34] take care of everything, and I was

[9:36] afraid of, you know, that my parents

[9:39] wouldn't come back and all of those

[9:41] things. So, that was like a

[9:43] an experience of abandonment, you know,

[9:45] which I had on a regular basis. And then

[9:48] later on, I projected that fear onto

[9:52] many things which happened in my life. I

[9:55] was alone in community as an arm. So, I

[9:57] I had a tendency to take responsibility

[10:00] for a lot of things because I had grown

[10:02] up as the older sibling.

[10:04] You know, it took me a well long time to

[10:07] actually really consciously see what I

[10:10] was doing. And and to let go of that

[10:14] habit more and more. I felt also not

[10:16] happy about that I was always taking

[10:18] care of everything. But I didn't really

[10:21] see for quite some time how I was

[10:23] actually making that, you know? Nobody

[10:25] made me do it, but I I did it

[10:28] automatically without knowing it.

[10:31] >> So, we have these experiences in our

[10:34] early lives and we start to

[10:38] see the world in certain ways and behave

[10:41] in certain ways and we carry those

[10:43] inappropriately into situations

[10:46] throughout our adult lives and that

[10:47] causes suffering for ourselves and

[10:49] others.

[10:49] >> Yeah. Until we one day we see that, you

[10:52] know, and we also might sometimes need

[10:55] help, you know, from a therapist or for

[10:57] some kind of

[10:58] mentor, you know, who helps us to see

[11:00] it. And then as we are slowly, you know,

[11:03] stepping out and and consciously not

[11:06] enact the pattern,

[11:09] it releases like unacknowledged fears,

[11:12] you know?

[11:13] Because not doing the same thing you

[11:14] always did,

[11:16] you know, produces some kind of fear

[11:20] because I didn't, you know, I took all

[11:22] this responsibility because I was afraid

[11:24] if I don't do it, nobody's going to do

[11:26] it. But nobody did it because I was

[11:28] always stepping forward first. Until you

[11:30] see that all of those things is a

[11:33] conditioned kind of a constellation.

[11:36] Which if you put out one part, the whole

[11:39] thing collapses. And then it opens up,

[11:42] and then it might come back a few more

[11:44] times. But if you have seen it opening

[11:47] once, you know, you're never going to

[11:48] get

[11:49] caught in it again in the same way. And

[11:52] then slowly you step out of that, you'll

[11:54] end up in a bigger world, slightly

[11:56] bigger world, you know? And then that

[11:59] enables you to see the next filter, and

[12:01] the next filter. And that is the

[12:03] practice, letting go of one filter after

[12:06] the next. Not like with a sledgehammer,

[12:09] you know, but with a lot of mindfulness,

[12:12] with

[12:13] focusing, and with a lot of kindness

[12:15] also, you know.

[12:17] >> Let me tell you about one of my little

[12:18] taglines. Cuz I use it all the time

[12:20] because I love it. Here it is. The world

[12:22] is insane, but you don't have to be.

[12:24] It may feel like the world is on fire,

[12:26] and in many ways it is. And in this

[12:29] scenario, a lot of us get this idea in

[12:31] our heads that it's somehow

[12:32] self-indulgent to take care of

[12:34] ourselves. But in fact, taking care of

[12:36] your own mind

[12:37] and of course your body is how you

[12:40] resource yourself,

[12:41] how you get your together

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[14:56] What are the tools that you would

[14:57] recommend for being for stepping out of

[15:01] the matrix our our our self-created

[15:04] matrix?

[15:05] >> I would say, you know, what's called the

[15:06] Noble Eightfold Path, which is the core

[15:09] teaching of the Buddha. You know,

[15:11] mindfulness is one of eight qualities

[15:14] which need to be cultivated.

[15:16] So, that path, you know, is kind of the

[15:19] blueprint from how we can slowly but

[15:23] surely, become more conscious, you know,

[15:25] of what we are actually adding to

[15:28] experience. And then, once the mind has

[15:31] really seen clearly, the mind wants to

[15:33] let go. You know, the mind really wants

[15:36] to let go. The mind wants to be free. It

[15:38] will respond with letting go. You know,

[15:41] letting go is not something we can make

[15:43] happen, but we can put causes and

[15:46] conditions in place by conducting

[15:49] ourselves in a certain way, by

[15:51] investigating, you know, by keeping

[15:53] ethics, for example, and not, you know,

[15:56] kind of wasting our energy in doing a

[15:59] lot of stupid things, you know, which

[16:01] keep us get us into trouble. So, it's

[16:04] it's a it's a lifestyle which is

[16:08] dedicated to uh wanting to know more

[16:12] fully how we can unlock our potential.

[16:16] >> Let me just provide some context for the

[16:18] listener and viewer. I think actually

[16:20] the first teaching of of the Buddha was

[16:23] the noble eightfold path. It was

[16:24] actually embedded in in another list.

[16:27] The Buddha liked to make lists. So, the

[16:29] first speech he gave after he got

[16:31] enlightened was the four noble truths.

[16:33] And the fourth of the noble truths is

[16:35] actually a list within a list, and

[16:37] that's the eightfold path. And it's it's

[16:38] kind of a recipe for a good life or a

[16:40] recipe for enlightenment. And one of the

[16:44] entries in the eightfold path is

[16:46] mindfulness, but there's a lot of stuff

[16:47] in there about ethical conduct, right

[16:50] speech, right livelihood. And really one

[16:52] of the ideas there is that if you're not

[16:54] wasting your mental energy on

[16:56] keeping your lies straight or feeling

[16:59] regret for all of the bad things you've

[17:00] done that you have more energy for

[17:02] exploration and enlightenment and

[17:04] letting go, etc., etc. It does bring me

[17:07] to a question. You, as you've said, have

[17:09] spent 35 years in intensive mindfulness

[17:12] practice,

[17:13] not just mindfulness practice, other

[17:15] forms of

[17:17] Buddhist practice.

[17:18] And that has allowed you to step out of

[17:20] your ancient patterns. But what about

[17:24] for the rest of us?

[17:25] How do we get a taste of this?

[17:28] >> It's like in anything in life, you know,

[17:30] how much you put in, that's what you get

[17:32] back, you know?

[17:34] So, I think you have to just find out

[17:37] for yourself how much you want to

[17:38] invest, you know, of your life energy

[17:41] into this path. And then

[17:44] you get the returns, you know, from from

[17:47] that. And also in Buddhism we speak

[17:49] about this is not our first birth, you

[17:51] know, we come here and we might have

[17:53] practiced in other lifetimes. So, you

[17:56] know, somebody might come and be already

[18:00] much further along than somebody else.

[18:02] So, you know, I have much more

[18:03] propensity to understand and respond to

[18:06] the teachings. So, it really depends on

[18:08] where we are starting from. But it

[18:11] doesn't really matter, you know, you

[18:12] just do what you can and as you are kind

[18:16] of connecting deeper with the benefits

[18:19] of the teaching, it will become more and

[18:21] more attractive, you know? Like what I

[18:23] know about you, Daniel, and you had an

[18:25] experience, you know, which which opened

[18:28] you up, which broke your heart in a way

[18:30] open. In a conventional sense, it means,

[18:32] "Oh my god, this poor guy, you know, he

[18:34] had this bad experience." But in a

[18:37] spiritual sense, it's a great good

[18:38] fortune, you know? Like for me, when my

[18:41] mother died, was it a good thing or a

[18:43] bad thing? I mean, it was a bad thing on

[18:45] one way, but it was also for me, you

[18:48] know, I could say my mother gave birth

[18:50] to me twice. So, you know, in

[18:52] spirituality or in in practice, you

[18:55] can't really look at it with the same

[18:58] measuring stick as you look at material

[19:00] things. This is why it's confusing for

[19:03] some people and hard to understand

[19:06] because most people are so stuck, you

[19:08] know, in a materialistic way of looking.

[19:11] >> So, just to put a fine point on that,

[19:13] because I think this is an accessible

[19:15] teaching for anybody, whether they

[19:17] meditate or not.

[19:18] >> Right.

[19:19] >> Heartbreak can have

[19:22] a a very significant upside.

[19:25] >> Yeah. Breaking the heart open, you know,

[19:27] so that more life can land in us.

[19:30] Because, you know, a a heart before it's

[19:34] broken is is sometimes very kind of sure

[19:37] it knows how everything has to be.

[19:40] And then something happens, you know,

[19:41] which is so different. And and there's a

[19:44] breakdown.

[19:46] But it's also like an opening. And then

[19:49] we will

[19:51] take some time to heal from it.

[19:54] But I can say, you know, without any

[19:57] doubt that when I look back on all on

[19:59] the heartbreaks I've had, you know, like

[20:01] romantic and otherwise, they were in the

[20:03] end of the day they brought me closer to

[20:06] the way things are. You know, that the

[20:09] depths of the despair was a motivator,

[20:12] you know, to want to understand how this

[20:15] works. What is life, you know, how does

[20:17] it work? And how can I

[20:19] a position myself inside of it in in a

[20:23] way which which leads to greater wisdom

[20:26] and compassion. And and in my case, you

[20:29] know, it took me to this rather extreme

[20:33] profession, you know, which I'm having

[20:35] now. And I had quite a struggle myself

[20:38] with it, you know, because I didn't want

[20:40] to do 150%

[20:42] you know, dedication. I just wanted to

[20:44] do like 70 or something, you know.

[20:47] But then somehow, you know, I I couldn't

[20:50] stop it. It basically sucked me in, you

[20:53] know. And then I always thought I'm

[20:54] going to in 2 years I'm going to leave.

[20:57] In 2 years I'm going to leave. And I

[20:58] said that for

[21:00] 30 years or something. And now I just

[21:02] think, okay.

[21:03] I That's it, you know. I'll stay with

[21:06] this. It's fine, you know?

[21:08] But

[21:10] you know, life knows

[21:12] uh better than we do.

[21:14] And

[21:15] and I have meanwhile, you know, over the

[21:18] years, I have let go more and more. Now,

[21:20] I allow life to show me the way. The

[21:22] energy shows me the way. The Earth shows

[21:25] me the way. My experiences, you know,

[21:28] have

[21:29] delivered me into that kind of a trust

[21:31] because

[21:33] it always worked out, you know?

[21:35] Even my mind was desperately thinking it

[21:38] would not, you know?

[21:39] >> Okay. Let me just pick up on something

[21:41] you said there because I find it

[21:43] and this is uh apparently a

[21:45] characteristic, I'm learning, of you. I

[21:47] find uh so many of the things you're

[21:49] saying very, very interesting. You said

[21:51] something like having the trust to let

[21:54] life

[21:55] show you the way, and even the Earth

[21:58] show you the way.

[22:00] Can you explain a little bit more what

[22:01] you mean by that specifically?

[22:03] >> One of the important qualities, you

[22:06] know, to be able to walk the noble

[22:08] eightfold path you were just mentioning,

[22:10] is what in the Buddhist uh jargon is

[22:13] called saddha, and we can translate that

[22:16] as confidence, trust, and faith. That

[22:19] there is something much bigger than

[22:22] ourselves which

[22:25] we can listen into, which can show us

[22:28] the way. And in the context of the

[22:31] Buddhist teaching, it's it's called the

[22:33] Buddha Dharma or the Dhamma.

[22:35] And that's a Pali word. That's the

[22:39] language in which the teachings were

[22:40] laid down uh about 600 years after the

[22:44] Buddha's death. And Dhamma can be

[22:46] translated as as nature or laws of

[22:49] nature. So, to really, you know,

[22:51] understand that we are part of nature,

[22:55] and we are also operating according to

[22:58] the laws of nature,

[23:00] and that we can listen into the process

[23:04] we are already part of for guidance, you

[23:07] know. And you know, the Buddha has given

[23:09] us like a map, you know, how to walk

[23:13] that path and how to support ourselves

[23:16] so that we are maximally capable of

[23:19] listening into the Dharma.

[23:22] You know, and listening not just with

[23:24] our ears. The Dharma isn't talking to me

[23:26] and tell me, you know, "Sandha cheated

[23:28] to this. Sandha cheated to that." But

[23:30] it's more like listening with the whole

[23:33] body

[23:34] into that which gives me life, you know.

[23:37] >> I love this idea of of being able to

[23:40] listen more clearly to you could call

[23:43] the Dharma,

[23:44] or nature, the the rhythm of life to to

[23:48] understand how to proceed. And I'm

[23:51] curious again for for those of us who

[23:53] are laypeople,

[23:54] how can we tune our instrument so that

[23:58] we can

[23:59] you know, hear what reality is trying to

[24:01] tell us.

[24:02] >> Exactly. It's a very good way of saying

[24:03] it, you know, because it's an attunement

[24:06] process, you know. What's happening

[24:08] here, life, you know, it's like an

[24:09] orchestra of of countless species, you

[24:12] know, performing together. And and I

[24:15] think we are now at a threshold, you

[24:17] know, where we are starting to

[24:19] understand that this orchestra on this

[24:22] planet is not all about us, you know,

[24:24] about our Homo sapiens, our the human

[24:28] species, but it's it's about all of us,

[24:32] the more than human world and the human

[24:35] world working together

[24:37] to sustain

[24:40] the great opportunity of of living, you

[24:43] know, on this beautiful planet. And the

[24:46] Buddha has even been on record saying,

[24:49] you know, that the human birth,

[24:51] according to the Buddha, is the best

[24:53] opportunity for

[24:55] uh

[24:56] {quote} {unquote} progressing on

[24:58] spiritual path because, you know,

[25:00] according to the Buddhist teaching, it

[25:02] said, you know, there's different

[25:04] incarnations, you know, we can we can be

[25:07] born into either underneath the human

[25:09] birth. It's It's more kind difficult

[25:13] lives to to lead, you know, like

[25:15] where there's a lot of suffering or

[25:18] above the human realms, you know, where

[25:20] heavenly

[25:21] realms, you know, where there's so much

[25:24] pleasure that there's not much

[25:26] motivation for practice. So, the human

[25:28] realm is considered the perfect one, you

[25:31] know, with the perfect mix between

[25:34] pleasure and pain. So, there's a

[25:36] motivation for practice because there's

[25:38] enough pain, you know, but there's also

[25:41] enough pleasure to be able to listen to

[25:43] a podcast like this or read a book, you

[25:46] know, or meditate.

[25:47] >> Just want to jump in and provide a

[25:48] little context there. What Ayya

[25:50] Santacitta's talking about there is the

[25:51] Buddhist cosmology of these various

[25:53] realms of existence. So, there's the

[25:56] animal realm,

[25:58] um and given the nature of life as a

[26:00] golden retriever, there's a lot of good

[26:02] stuff to it, but it doesn't necessarily

[26:04] lend itself to meditation practice.

[26:06] Although golden retrievers are very much

[26:08] in the in the present moment.

[26:10] And then there's the human realm, which

[26:13] we'll come back to. And then

[26:15] there are the heavenly realms where you

[26:17] apparently have these celestial

[26:19] creatures that live in states of with a

[26:21] lot of pleasure. And so you're there as

[26:23] Santacitta said that not a lot of

[26:26] motivation to practice, but in this

[26:27] in-between space where

[26:30] we are existing as humans, it's the

[26:33] right mixture of pleasure and pain that

[26:35] can motivate us to

[26:37] meditate and engage in other forms of

[26:40] mind training that can wake us up and

[26:43] get us back to seeing through our

[26:44] patterns so that we're not owned by

[26:46] them. How did I do there? Was that

[26:47] roughly correct?

[26:48] >> Yeah, right. Exactly. That's what I was

[26:50] wanting to

[26:52] point out, yeah.

[26:54] >> So again, I just want to practical tip

[26:56] in order to develop this attunement that

[26:58] you're talking about. Let's talk about

[27:00] some tools. I mean I obviously

[27:02] meditation is one of them.

[27:05] Is there more to say specifically about

[27:06] meditation? Are there other tools that

[27:09] we should also talk about?

[27:10] >> I think you know meditation is one and

[27:13] then

[27:14] ethics is one you know because then you

[27:16] don't have to constantly you know clean

[27:18] up after yourself then you look after

[27:21] your health you know after your body

[27:24] then also right livelihood is also

[27:27] important you know to make the money you

[27:29] need to live make it in a in an ethical

[27:32] way as ethical as possible you know. I

[27:35] think that's that is like on a worldly

[27:37] level you know the the very important

[27:40] points yeah. And then maybe you know

[27:43] find a teacher find a guide who knows

[27:46] who's a bit further along on the path

[27:48] than yourself who can maybe help you you

[27:51] know to

[27:52] point out the way

[27:55] and have maybe some mentor or some

[27:57] teacher to meet on a regular basis.

[28:01] Maybe I'm trying a group who meditates

[28:04] maybe regularly because it's easier you

[28:06] know to to do it if you have community.

[28:10] >> Yeah, and the Buddha talked a lot about

[28:11] this. I mean I've been told that the

[28:13] story I'm about to tell is

[28:16] not quite accurate but but it is a story

[28:18] that gets passed around a lot that the

[28:21] Buddha one day was approached by his

[28:23] cousin and attendant Ananda.

[28:26] Ananda was like his constant companion

[28:28] but at some point Ananda had been away

[28:30] hanging out with some other monks and he

[28:32] came back all enthusiastic to the to the

[28:34] Buddha and said you know just hanging

[28:35] out with these

[28:36] other monks and nuns it's it's so it's

[28:40] so important it's so enlivening it's

[28:42] like half the path and the Buddha said

[28:45] no no no it's it's it's the whole path.

[28:47] >> Yeah, correct. That's what he said,

[28:49] yeah.

[28:50] Because it can be, you know, that

[28:51] sometimes we come into dead end roads or

[28:55] into some kind of a difficult situation,

[28:58] and it's really that relationship with

[29:01] others can really keep help us to keep

[29:04] going, you know, until we are strong

[29:06] again and can continue. I have

[29:08] definitely experienced that in my life

[29:11] several times, you know, where it was

[29:13] really a relationship to a friend

[29:16] which kept me going, you know, when I

[29:18] was hardly capable to go, you know, but

[29:20] at least I didn't turn back or anything,

[29:24] because I had that I could lean onto

[29:26] that. Well, lean into the the schedule

[29:30] in the monastery, for example, you know,

[29:31] monasteries are created in a way for

[29:34] that, you know, that

[29:36] if you have a little breakdown or you

[29:37] can't go on, then the the schedule just

[29:41] carries you, you know, until you can get

[29:43] on your feet again. And you can create

[29:46] something like that through friends, you

[29:48] know, and the family members who give

[29:50] you that kind of care.

[29:52] >> What about for people who think like I

[29:54] don't actually have that many supportive

[29:55] people in my life, and I certainly don't

[29:57] have access to a great teacher or

[29:59] mentor?

[30:00] >> I think that's something, you know, we

[30:02] can we can look for. There's lots of

[30:05] sanghas, you know,

[30:06] sangha is the Pali word for community.

[30:10] To find us a a little community in your

[30:13] area, you know, which meets either in

[30:15] person or if that's not possible,

[30:17] there's also online communities where

[30:19] you know, they meet maybe once a week. I

[30:22] myself have a little online community.

[30:24] We meet on Wednesdays, for example.

[30:27] I think that's very, very valuable. And

[30:29] then, you know, going on retreats

[30:31] sometimes, which is a community thing as

[30:33] well. If somebody really wants to find a

[30:36] teacher, like I you know, after my

[30:38] mother died, I felt a very strong urge

[30:41] to find a teacher. That was like in

[30:43] 1988. That was almost 40 years ago.

[30:46] There was no internet. I was in Austria.

[30:49] I mean, I didn't know at all how to go

[30:51] about it, but I started to pray. You

[30:54] know, I started to ask for it that I

[30:57] need to find my teacher and I ask for

[30:59] guidance. And 1 and 1/2 years later, I

[31:01] found him. And I don't, you know,

[31:03] necessarily expect people to pray, but I

[31:06] mean, you know, just put out the word

[31:08] and say, you know, whoever is out here

[31:11] in this universe, you know, I I really

[31:13] need a teacher. Please help. It's going

[31:15] to happen. It's It's a very mysterious

[31:18] process, really. Once you have gotten

[31:21] like a hint of the of the fact, you

[31:24] know, that this universe is intelligent

[31:27] and responsive,

[31:29] it's awesome. You know, there's really a

[31:31] feeling of being part of something so

[31:34] much bigger than oneself and a sense of

[31:37] belonging, you know, which is very

[31:39] energizing

[31:40] and exciting and awe-inspiring, you

[31:43] know? And And it's that kind of opening

[31:47] which kind of is magnifying

[31:51] your aspiration.

[31:54] >> I'm just going to press you on that

[31:55] again because I I I love what you're

[31:57] saying and I can imagine people

[32:00] thinking, I just don't feel it. I don't

[32:03] I get intellectually this is a

[32:07] you know, a majestic, mysterious

[32:09] universe in which we're living, but I

[32:11] don't feel it for myself.

[32:12] >> You know, and that's exactly that takes

[32:14] us back to what you said then about the

[32:16] attunement, you know? Because

[32:19] you can't feel it yet because there's

[32:21] all of those filters and all of those

[32:23] expectations and assumption how it needs

[32:27] to be in order to be something. We have

[32:30] all of those filters, our whole

[32:32] equipment, you know, is dull

[32:35] and it hasn't been

[32:38] polished and sharpened, you know, for

[32:41] the time it it needs to. It's like

[32:44] learning a different language, you know?

[32:46] If you learn a different language, I

[32:47] mean, it's not going to be a one-day

[32:49] affair, you know, or even learn to drive

[32:52] a car or play an instrument. It requires

[32:56] to go through the frustration of

[32:58] thinking, "I can't do this. I don't know

[33:00] how to do it, you know? It's so much

[33:02] work." All of that.

[33:05] It's It's not different from learning

[33:07] any other skill. It requires our input,

[33:10] our dedication. And this is why it's so

[33:12] important, you know, to have a teacher

[33:14] or mentor who is already ahead of us,

[33:17] who has no more doubt, you know, it can

[33:19] be done. And who remembers how he or she

[33:22] was, you know, when the when the

[33:24] instrument wasn't yet tuned. And then he

[33:27] can say, "Just keep going. Keep going,

[33:29] you know?" That's what my teachers told

[33:31] me when I didn't know what I was doing.

[33:33] But I just looked at them and I I knew

[33:37] they were they spoke the truth, you

[33:39] know?

[33:39] >> That sounds right to me.

[33:41] >> Like when somebody asks, you know, how

[33:42] does chocolate taste? Ask somebody who

[33:45] already has eaten it. They can't really

[33:47] exactly explain, but they can say it's

[33:50] so good, you need to try. You know what

[33:52] I mean? And then, as soon as you get

[33:54] your hands on it, you try and then you

[33:56] know for yourself. But first you need to

[33:59] take it take their word, you know? You

[34:01] don't need to believe it. But to just

[34:04] not negate the possibility. And And for

[34:06] that, we need a role model, you know,

[34:09] who talks to us because they kind of

[34:11] there's an alchemy or something, you

[34:13] know? It couldn't be anybody. It has to

[34:15] be somebody who is is the right one for

[34:18] you, you know?

[34:19] >> Yeah, and if you don't have access to a

[34:20] great teacher, I mean, reading great

[34:22] books, listening to people like you on

[34:25] podcasts, signing up for online groups.

[34:29] >> Yeah, yeah.

[34:30] >> There are lots of options, options that

[34:31] didn't exist in 1988.

[34:33] >> Absolutely not. Yeah, yeah. And

[34:35] sometimes it can even be enough, you

[34:37] know, to just look at an image of

[34:39] someone, you know, who inspires you. And

[34:41] and then if we are really giving

[34:44] ourselves to the

[34:46] to the quest, you know,

[34:48] there is a response. And we need to give

[34:51] up the idea it's going to be exactly the

[34:53] way we want it to be because it might be

[34:55] completely different, you know? And

[34:57] that's what is so difficult for people,

[35:00] you know, who have had a lot of comfort

[35:02] and a lot of um

[35:04] agency and control in their lives

[35:07] because this is something you can't

[35:09] control because the whole spiritual path

[35:11] is about giving up control.

[35:14] You know, and this is like kind of oh my

[35:16] god, you know? But that's what it is.

[35:19] And you know, when you had your

[35:20] experience, you gave up control because

[35:23] you you were forced to.

[35:25] And then afterwards, you know, you got a

[35:27] taste of something. You knew what you

[35:30] were uh looking for.

[35:32] And then it's just like feeling your

[35:34] way, you know?

[35:35] >> Just just to say for for viewers and

[35:37] listeners who

[35:38] >> Mhm.

[35:39] >> aren't

[35:40] familiar with every aspect of my

[35:41] backstory, the experience that uh you're

[35:43] referring to is the panic attack I had

[35:45] on television more than 20 years ago,

[35:48] which kind of set me off on on the path

[35:50] toward meditation and

[35:52] yeah, it sucked in the moment and I'm

[35:54] very glad it happened.

[35:56] >> Yeah.

[35:57] That's what I mean, you know? This is

[35:59] like the essence of the path is, you

[36:02] know, it sucked when it happened, but

[36:04] I'm very glad it happened because

[36:05] otherwise I would have stayed in that

[36:07] small world.

[36:08] >> Yes. Yes.

[36:09] >> You like that, you know?

[36:10] >> My meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein,

[36:13] likes to say, "Don't waste your

[36:14] suffering." And

[36:16] >> exactly.

[36:17] >> Uh I was giving a commencement address

[36:19] the other day to a bunch of 18-year-olds

[36:21] and uh you know, just making this case

[36:24] that life is not an escalator. It isn't

[36:27] it it it is not going to be an unbroken

[36:29] upward trajectory. It's going to have

[36:30] these setbacks, but the key cognitive

[36:33] reframe is you don't have to enjoy the

[36:36] setbacks, but eventually wake up and see

[36:38] that they are opportunities.

[36:39] >> Yeah, exactly. You know, in the days of

[36:41] very beautiful saying

[36:44] of

[36:45] Ajahn Chah, who is the founder of the

[36:47] lineage I I trained in, and he said, you

[36:50] know, there's two kinds of suffering,

[36:53] the suffering which leads in circles and

[36:56] the suffering which leads out of

[36:57] suffering. That's the approach we need

[36:59] to do because there will always be

[37:02] things, you know, going quote unquote

[37:04] wrong, but what we do with those things

[37:07] makes all of the difference, you know.

[37:12] >> In the memo that you and Marisa

[37:16] Schneiderman prepared for me in order to

[37:18] get ready for this discussion, one of

[37:21] the things that I I noticed that you

[37:24] wanted to talk about was patience.

[37:27] Why is patience such an important

[37:29] quality of mind?

[37:30] >> I mean, I was like younger, you know, I

[37:33] always thought patience is something for

[37:35] old ladies, you know, who just like have

[37:38] given up on life, you know? And and I'm

[37:41] just generally quite impatient compared

[37:44] with other people, and my father was

[37:47] also quite impatient. And then later on,

[37:49] you know, when I started to meditate, I

[37:51] understood how much fear under

[37:53] impatience is, how much fear

[37:56] of not being able to wait, you know, of

[37:58] of wanting to know it immediately, and

[38:01] and not being able to tolerate not

[38:03] knowing, you know, uncertainty. And what

[38:05] a great asset that is in one's life if

[38:09] we can tolerate that, you know, if we

[38:11] can wait, if we can open up, if we can

[38:14] trust. It's It's a huge

[38:17] benefit to our lives not interfering too

[38:20] quickly and allowing life to speak for

[38:23] itself.

[38:24] >> What do you recommend as tools, here I

[38:27] go again, for training patience, for

[38:31] training tolerance in uncertainty?

[38:33] >> I think, you know, meditation is that

[38:35] tool, really. Because in meditation, we

[38:37] usually either sit or walk,

[38:40] and it's not about achieving anything,

[38:43] but it's more being with what is, and

[38:46] not trying to change what is, but

[38:49] allowing it to fully show itself. And

[38:52] that requires, you know, slowing down,

[38:54] stopping,

[38:56] and

[38:57] observing habitual responses and not

[39:01] acting on them.

[39:02] But having the capacity to hold steady

[39:06] and experience

[39:08] the

[39:10] urges without necessarily reacting, but

[39:15] choosing to respond, but not being

[39:18] forced to react. And that's a vast

[39:20] difference, you know, between reacting

[39:22] or responding. As you know, it's this

[39:25] all makes all of the difference in a

[39:27] meeting, in a relationship, with your

[39:29] children, with your husband. It's It's

[39:32] always makes a huge difference, you

[39:36] know, if you can choose to respond

[39:40] after you've taken a breath or two, and

[39:42] not immediately have to react because

[39:44] you can't hold

[39:46] the discomfort of the energy.

[39:48] >> You know, there's a way in which

[39:49] meditation can feel either stupid or

[39:53] impossible because you sit, you try to

[39:56] focus on your breath, and then you're

[39:57] just ambushed by all of these

[39:59] distractions. That is the thing, being

[40:02] willing to sit with the fact that your

[40:04] mind is so unruly, and having the grit

[40:07] and the perseverance to start again and

[40:09] again and again. That's not like a

[40:12] beginner practice. That That is the

[40:14] practice.

[40:15] >> Yeah, exactly. A million times, two

[40:18] million times, to just come back to the

[40:21] breath or whatever your object is of

[40:23] meditation, yeah? You know, to have the

[40:25] capacity to

[40:27] come back to it again and again. And you

[40:29] know, what we are training is, you know,

[40:31] letting go of those patterns and coming

[40:34] back and letting go and coming back. And

[40:37] it doesn't matter how often, but what

[40:39] matters is as soon as you are noticing

[40:41] that you are caught, you let go and you

[40:43] come back, you know?

[40:45] And that's that's it. It's, you know,

[40:47] and what I often say to people at the

[40:49] beginning of a meditation, I say, you

[40:51] know, meditation isn't about having a

[40:53] different experience than from the

[40:55] experience you are having, but it's

[40:58] having it consciously. It's a very

[41:00] ordinary

[41:01] thing, you know? It's not about

[41:03] wonderful, you know, experiences. Even

[41:06] sometimes it can happen, you know? But

[41:08] that's not the reason why we meditate.

[41:10] We meditate in order to be less caught

[41:13] in those patterns, you know?

[41:15] >> Yes, because if you sit and watch your

[41:18] mind and all of its ridiculousness and

[41:22] and glory, after a while you you just

[41:25] don't take it as seriously and you

[41:28] develop the capacity to withstand it

[41:31] when you know, the thought pops into

[41:33] your mind like

[41:34] to say or do something horrible, you

[41:37] just can after a while just notice, "Oh,

[41:38] it's just a thought. I can let it go."

[41:40] And all of that power comes from doing

[41:44] this very ordinary

[41:46] of sitting and trying to focus on your

[41:48] breath and getting humiliated over and

[41:50] over.

[41:51] >> And in the beginning, you know, we met

[41:54] here people saying what you just said

[41:56] and I just said, but we can't believe it

[41:58] because we think it must be something

[42:00] much more

[42:02] special than that, you know? But it is.

[42:04] It's so ordinary. And because it's so

[42:08] ordinary, it's hard to explain the power

[42:10] it has, yeah? Because the power lies in

[42:13] the capacity to no longer identify with

[42:16] those patterns and to choose

[42:20] to just let them go. You know, let them

[42:22] do their thing. They're like the clouds

[42:24] in the sky. We don't need to grasp the

[42:26] clouds. We can them just give it the

[42:28] space they need. They're just going to

[42:31] come and go. None of my business, you

[42:33] know.

[42:33] >> And we said this earlier, but I think it

[42:34] bears repeating at this juncture that

[42:36] this practice of meditation, which

[42:38] really anybody can do,

[42:41] um it is not, you know, for nuns and

[42:43] monks or for podcasters. It It really is

[42:47] for everybody.

[42:48] The Over time, what happens as you are

[42:50] less caught by your thoughts

[42:53] is you can attune. You You which is

[42:56] where we began this conversation. This

[42:57] is how you can start to

[43:00] you know, and this sounds kind of

[43:01] highfalutin, but like listen to the

[43:04] Dharma, listen to the world, listen to

[43:06] reality.

[43:07] >> Yeah, exactly. That's how it is, yeah.

[43:09] Because there's more space, you know,

[43:11] and we don't need to get involved with

[43:13] every little thing. And then there is

[43:15] the capacity, there's the spaciousness

[43:19] to listen to

[43:21] something much bigger than yourself and

[43:24] feel a sense of belonging and even a

[43:28] sense of guidance, you know, if you want

[43:30] to use that word.

[43:31] >> In your conversation with Marissa, one

[43:33] one thing you said that is often you

[43:35] pointed out that one of the missing

[43:37] pieces in the West

[43:39] for people interested in

[43:41] self-improvement, personal growth,

[43:42] spiritual development, whatever you want

[43:44] to call it, is devotion. What does that

[43:47] mean, devotion?

[43:48] >> You know, when when Buddhism was

[43:50] exported, quote unquote, you know, like

[43:52] 30, 40 years ago, with Joseph Goldstein

[43:56] and Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg and

[43:58] others, you know, who brought it from

[44:00] Asia and my teacher Ajahn Sumedho

[44:03] brought it from Asia to to the West in

[44:05] order to be able to land it at IMS and

[44:08] at Spirit Rock and other centers, it had

[44:11] to be stripped from folklore, so to say,

[44:16] you know, because people had no

[44:17] tolerance for that. And they didn't want

[44:20] to learn about, you know, the more

[44:22] traditional ways, the religious forms,

[44:26] you know, from Asia. They only wanted

[44:29] the meditation.

[44:31] And there was the understanding that,

[44:33] you know, if you meditate really hard,

[44:36] then you're going to get enlightened and

[44:38] then you're going to be done. But then,

[44:40] you know, people were meditating for 20,

[44:42] 30 years, and it became clear, you know,

[44:44] there is more needed than just following

[44:48] uh

[44:49] the meditation instructions, because we

[44:51] need also to take care of our heart.

[44:54] And devotional practices and a

[44:57] devotional approach to that which is

[44:59] much vaster than ourselves can give us

[45:02] the buoyancy, you know, to stay engaged

[45:04] with the practice

[45:06] and to open to that which is difficult

[45:09] to meet in ourselves, you know. And also

[45:12] like a sense of lineage, you know, that

[45:14] we are part of a lineage which has been

[45:17] transported, you know, from Asia to the

[45:19] West and is over 2,600 years old and and

[45:24] a sense of, you know, the ancient ones,

[45:26] the ancestors, those who have passed

[45:29] down the teaching over the centuries.

[45:32] And yeah, and the sense of respect and

[45:36] and reverence for that, too.

[45:37] >> So, what does a devotional practice look

[45:40] like?

[45:40] >> There's formal devotional practices like

[45:43] chanting, bowing, making offerings,

[45:48] reciting certain prayers. And that's

[45:52] like a more formal practice, but it can

[45:54] also be like a general practice of

[45:57] gratitude, you know, for everything

[45:58] which gives us life and which enables us

[46:01] to to practice. And at this day and age

[46:04] I would also say you know to recognize

[46:08] the earth as the foundation of that

[46:12] which gives life to our bodies, you

[46:14] know, the more than human world, you

[46:16] know, as a very important source of

[46:19] intelligence in this day and age, you

[46:22] know, where we start to see more and

[46:24] more clearly that the human species is

[46:27] one of the youngest species on this

[46:29] planet and quite immature, you know,

[46:31] very self obsessed and it's all about

[46:35] us. What can we get out of this, you

[46:37] know? And we have kind of maneuvered

[46:40] ourselves into a cul-de-sac, you know, I

[46:43] feel. There is a need for the humility

[46:47] which is necessary to understand that

[46:50] you know, we're dependent on all other

[46:52] species for for everything. We have

[46:55] everything we are, we constantly eat,

[46:58] drink and breathe the planet, you know,

[47:01] and we never cut the umbilical cord to

[47:03] the planet. Without this

[47:07] biosphere, you know, we cannot live.

[47:09] This is not a stage on which we are

[47:12] walking around taking what we like and

[47:14] throwing away what we don't like, but we

[47:16] are participants if we like it or not,

[47:18] you know, and it's time for us to wake

[47:21] up to that truth, I think.

[47:23] >> And in terms of waking up to that truth,

[47:26] is it as simple as spending more time

[47:27] outside?

[47:28] >> No, I think it's not that simple. I

[47:30] mean, that's definitely very helpful,

[47:32] you know, but already when I was a child

[47:34] and I was really interested in

[47:36] indigenous ways of

[47:39] looking at life that brought me later on

[47:41] to study cultural anthropology and so

[47:44] on. And at this day and age now, you

[47:47] know, I feel

[47:50] that Western cultures can learn a lot

[47:53] from indigenous ways of looking at life,

[47:56] you know, who see the earth as a living

[47:59] intelligent being we belong to

[48:03] like cells, you know, inside of a big

[48:05] body.

[48:06] And a cell doesn't need to know, you

[48:08] know, what it's doing. It just attunes

[48:10] to the bigger orchestra of that vast

[48:13] body. And and that's what I

[48:16] work with at this time, you know, that

[48:20] the Buddhist teaching have given me a

[48:21] lot of capacity, you know, to work with

[48:25] my mind.

[48:26] But the Buddhist teaching was also

[48:28] transmitted to us inside of patriarchy,

[48:32] you know, inside of the worldview of

[48:35] domination and

[48:37] the assumption of what I call human

[48:39] supremacy assumption, you know, that

[48:41] thinking this is all about us here.

[48:44] This planet with all of its beautiful

[48:47] and terrifying things relating it all

[48:50] back to us, you know, very human-centric

[48:53] way of looking and

[48:55] I like to

[48:57] orient myself inside of a more

[49:00] indigenous way of looking, which is

[49:02] about relating to the earth

[49:05] as a living intelligent being which has

[49:08] been able to sustain life for almost 5

[49:12] billion years, you know, without anybody

[49:14] telling her how to do it.

[49:16] It's an inbuilt intelligence.

[49:19] And I think, you know, this is for me a

[49:23] new way how I understand the Dharma to

[49:27] present itself. Because, you know, the

[49:29] teachings, the core teachings of the

[49:31] Buddha Dharma are timeless, but they are

[49:35] passed on inside of a packaging which is

[49:38] historical, you know, and we are now at

[49:41] the threshold

[49:43] where we are basically stepping out of a

[49:46] dying paradigm,

[49:49] you know,

[49:50] industrialist capitalist patriarch

[49:53] patriarchal paradigm of domination into

[49:57] a new way of understanding ourselves

[50:01] as

[50:02] being part of a living intelligent

[50:04] Earth.

[50:05] >> It's interesting that I I

[50:08] sometimes think

[50:11] I'm not sure whether the paradigm is

[50:12] dying, but if it doesn't die, we will

[50:15] die.

[50:16] >> Yeah.

[50:17] It is dying. If we look at it

[50:20] with the mind of the old paradigm, it

[50:23] all looks impossible.

[50:25] But I also like to quote, you know,

[50:27] Albert Einstein who is on record for

[50:29] saying, "You can't solve a problem from

[50:32] the same level of consciousness which

[50:34] created it."

[50:35] So, you know, if you look at all of

[50:37] what's happening from the dominator

[50:39] paradigm, that you have to fix it, and

[50:42] you look at it, it looks impossible. But

[50:45] if I look at it in a way like, I would

[50:47] like to volunteer to become part of the

[50:50] immune system of the Earth, and then I

[50:52] don't need to It's not up to me to fix

[50:54] all of this, you know? I don't think

[50:56] human beings are per se bad or have done

[50:59] something wrong. It's just immature, you

[51:02] know? Our species is like maybe in a

[51:04] toddler stage, you know? It's all about

[51:07] me, and if I don't get it, I'm going to

[51:09] throw a tantrum, like the president of

[51:11] the United States is a toddler, you

[51:13] know, on the world stage, and it's

[51:15] rather embarrassing.

[51:17] >> Mhm.

[51:18] >> You know, he drives it really home how

[51:21] immature

[51:23] we are, you know, that somebody like

[51:25] that can be keep holding such an

[51:27] important office, and nobody can stop

[51:30] him.

[51:31] That means, you know, it's all really

[51:33] quite out of control right now.

[51:36] And I think this is um a really big

[51:39] teaching moment. You know, more and more

[51:41] cracks

[51:43] in the old paradigm are showing up, and

[51:45] rather than trying to glue those cracks

[51:48] together again and keep on going with

[51:50] the old ways of doing things, to listen

[51:53] into the cracks and see what wants to be

[51:56] born.

[51:57] And listening and making ourselves

[52:00] available, attuning to that that's what

[52:03] I try to do these days, you know?

[52:09] >> Let me link

[52:11] your

[52:12] I believe incisive critique of the

[52:14] species at this moment with

[52:17] uh something you talked about earlier,

[52:19] which is patience. So, I look at Trump

[52:21] and um you know, I find myself kind of

[52:24] daily refreshing the New York Times

[52:27] Trump approval rating tracker and find

[52:30] it incredibly disturbing that I think as

[52:33] of this recording he's at 38%. But,

[52:36] given everything he's done, the attacks

[52:38] on the rule of law, the pardoning uh of

[52:41] all the January 6 folks, the you know,

[52:44] lurching into war clearly without having

[52:48] thought about it, the sort of casual

[52:50] cruelty toward our most vulnerable, I

[52:53] could go on. The unhinged social media

[52:55] posts, the the tsunami of lies, and 38%

[53:01] of Americans are cool with this. Like,

[53:03] they approve. And that makes me

[53:05] impatient.

[53:07] Yeah, I also get impatient when I think

[53:08] about the state of the planet um and uh

[53:13] in light of all the things you said

[53:14] about the fact that we kind of need to

[53:17] evolve or uh potentially perish. And I

[53:21] feel impatient.

[53:23] Um and I'm So, I'm just wondering, how

[53:24] do you

[53:26] hold these views about the potential for

[53:28] change while imbibing

[53:33] all of the evidence to the contrary?

[53:36] >> Just what you said. I also feel

[53:37] impatient, you know? But, I'm not going

[53:40] to kind of

[53:41] uh

[53:42] act from that place, you know? I also

[53:45] feel impatient. I also feel kind of

[53:48] uncertain how it's going to work out,

[53:51] but I try to

[53:53] channel my energy in a way which is most

[53:57] effective to be part of the change I

[53:59] want to see, you know? To become part of

[54:02] the immune system of the earth, I do

[54:04] what I can, and then I need to let go,

[54:07] you know?

[54:08] And you you obviously do what you can,

[54:11] and if everybody do do what they can,

[54:14] that's how it's going to happen, you

[54:16] know?

[54:16] >> Do what you can

[54:18] >> Yeah.

[54:19] >> let go.

[54:20] >> Yeah.

[54:21] >> That seems like a recipe for sanity.

[54:23] It's like you you have agency, you're

[54:25] taking action, and you recognize like

[54:28] most of this is totally out of my

[54:30] control.

[54:31] >> But you know, but if let's say if if

[54:33] everybody would see that way, we would

[54:35] be living in a much more sane world, but

[54:38] obviously, you know, there's lots of

[54:40] people who are still so caught in the

[54:42] paradigm that there is some big man who

[54:44] is going to fix it for us, you know,

[54:47] because this is

[54:48] you know, this is the old paradigm, it's

[54:50] written all over the Bible, it's written

[54:52] all over the patriarchy, in the

[54:56] unwillingness to take responsibility to

[54:59] be accountable

[55:01] being here on this planet, you know?

[55:02] >> I do want to reference something that

[55:04] came up in the prep document that you

[55:07] that Marissa prepared for me. You

[55:08] actually did have a a very practical

[55:11] idea in terms of cultivating patience

[55:14] that we can do the next time we find

[55:16] ourselves waiting in line.

[55:17] >> You can train yourself in patience in

[55:22] very ordinary circumstances, like

[55:24] waiting in line at the checkout at the

[55:26] supermarket.

[55:28] And and then waiting in line wherever

[55:32] you need to wait in line, and rather

[55:34] than seeing that as oh my god, you know,

[55:36] I'm wasting my time.

[55:39] You can say, "No, I'm using that now to

[55:42] train my capacity for patience." You

[55:44] know, and and I really have had very

[55:46] lovely experiences waiting in the line

[55:49] in the supermarket. And it's not very

[55:51] often that there's impatient people.

[55:53] I've had very

[55:56] you know, really good experiences and so

[55:58] a lot of of kindness

[56:01] being enacted in this way. It's a great

[56:04] human quality. And once you have seen

[56:06] it, you know, how good it feels if I

[56:10] observe other people who do that in a in

[56:13] an elegant way or in a respectful way, I

[56:16] want to be like that, you know.

[56:17] >> Yeah, you see it in parents, good

[56:19] parents

[56:20] uh are patient.

[56:21] >> Many of the dumbest things I've done

[56:24] emerge out of rushing.

[56:27] >> And rushing comes from the inability

[56:30] to hold steady

[56:32] the you know, the contracted energy

[56:34] because it's kind of painful and it

[56:37] feels like there's enough space, you

[56:39] know, in me to allow it

[56:42] to just arise and cease, you know.

[56:45] But then when you have done it a few

[56:47] times, you know, it's it's not true.

[56:49] It's just

[56:50] it's just an idea. And this is so much

[56:53] isn't it part of a consumerist culture

[56:55] is all about immediate gratification.

[56:58] It's so much part of the paradigm. You

[57:01] know, we need to train ourselves

[57:02] consciously, yeah.

[57:03] >> Speaking of training, there was

[57:04] something else I noticed that you

[57:06] recommend, tuning into the feeling of

[57:08] longing in your heart.

[57:10] >> You could say

[57:11] you know, the GPS for the path.

[57:14] The the the longing because the heart

[57:17] already knows

[57:19] you know, that we belong to something so

[57:22] much bigger than ourselves and and

[57:24] there's this longing which gets often

[57:27] kind of sidetracked in consumer

[57:31] culture, you know, about shopping more

[57:33] and getting

[57:35] this or getting that and then feeling

[57:37] satisfied probably for a moment, but

[57:40] then the longing keeps on going. Because

[57:43] the longing wants something much more

[57:47] sophisticated than just buying the next

[57:50] thing.

[57:51] It's It's a sense of purpose in life and

[57:55] and a sense of belonging. Meditation,

[57:57] you know, I feel is is a technology, you

[58:00] know, which can connect us with that.

[58:02] And as we are starting to sense into

[58:05] that, you know, it's like uh

[58:08] an intuitive

[58:09] knowing.

[58:11] You know, which which can guide us. You

[58:13] know, things happen in our lives. A book

[58:15] falls into your hands. A friend sends

[58:18] you some information. There is a a

[58:21] mystery to to that guidance. You know,

[58:24] once you acknowledge

[58:26] the longing for

[58:29] that

[58:30] it just responds, you know? It's It's

[58:33] very hard to describe, but I have

[58:36] experienced it and I think you have

[58:38] experienced it, too.

[58:39] >> There's something about

[58:41] turning

[58:42] this nagging sense of insufficiency,

[58:45] this like nagging sense of never enough

[58:48] to our advantage. That if you if you

[58:50] really see it clearly, it's onward

[58:53] leading.

[58:53] >> Exactly. That's what I meant to say.

[58:55] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[58:57] You know, because if you think it's all

[58:58] about because that the way, you know,

[59:00] how we are informed

[59:03] in this culture is

[59:05] if you have that nagging sense of not

[59:07] enough, you haven't bought the right

[59:09] things, right?

[59:10] And then

[59:12] if you start to

[59:13] meet other people, you know, who have

[59:16] related to that nagging sense in

[59:18] different way like you or me or my

[59:20] teachers and so on,

[59:23] then you have a sense that there is

[59:25] something different. And then your

[59:29] capacity to look for that fulfillment

[59:32] opens up into other avenues of of

[59:36] possibility.

[59:37] And that's what a teacher or a mentor is

[59:40] here, you know, for to stretch your

[59:43] assumption, to stretch your

[59:44] expectations,

[59:46] to help you to open up some space for

[59:48] something new to enter your life. And I

[59:51] think that's what you try to do with

[59:53] your podcast, isn't it? To give people a

[59:55] hint that there is other possibilities

[59:58] to meet that sense of not enoughness.

[1:00:03] >> Honestly, a lot of what I'm doing on the

[1:00:04] podcast is reminding my myself over and

[1:00:07] over of the things I need to not forget.

[1:00:11] >> You know, when you teach or in your

[1:00:13] case, you know, you teaching in a way by

[1:00:15] interviewing people,

[1:00:17] you actually learn so much through that,

[1:00:19] isn't it?

[1:00:20] >> Yes.

[1:00:21] >> It is just, you know, that the the

[1:00:23] willingness to try on something

[1:00:25] different and to trust the person who is

[1:00:29] introducing it enough that you are

[1:00:31] willing to try it on without immediately

[1:00:34] throwing it out the window if it doesn't

[1:00:36] work within 1 minute. That's all what's

[1:00:38] needed, you know? And some things won't

[1:00:40] be the right thing for a particular

[1:00:43] person,

[1:00:44] but if we keep going, it's it's going to

[1:00:47] come. I mean, there's so many different

[1:00:49] methods, so many different approaches,

[1:00:51] so many different traditions and

[1:00:54] practices,

[1:00:55] but they all are, you know, pointing

[1:00:58] towards the same

[1:01:00] direction. And some might speak to us

[1:01:03] much more loud than others, you know.

[1:01:05] >> It's been such a pleasure to talk with

[1:01:07] you. Is is is there something you were

[1:01:09] hoping we would get to that we haven't

[1:01:12] gotten to?

[1:01:12] >> You know what I'd like to say in parting

[1:01:15] is what's new about spiritual practice

[1:01:18] at this time is that we really have to

[1:01:20] question, you know, as a human beings we

[1:01:24] have to question the old paradigm of

[1:01:28] the centrality of the human species on

[1:01:30] this planet and really take an interest

[1:01:33] in the biosphere in all species working

[1:01:36] together to give us life.

[1:01:39] And find the most

[1:01:41] beneficial place in all of this. The

[1:01:44] benefit is

[1:01:46] is great, you know, not just for us, but

[1:01:49] for future generations. This is what

[1:01:52] gives me a lot of

[1:01:54] energy these days, you know, to find a

[1:01:57] way to bring the Buddha Dharma into a

[1:01:59] new

[1:02:01] way of looking at spiritual practice

[1:02:05] for the

[1:02:07] 21st century.

[1:02:08] >> Because that is what's needed right now,

[1:02:10] especially to get over this human human

[1:02:13] centrism.

[1:02:13] >> I think that's most important what's

[1:02:16] needed and we can

[1:02:18] really, you know, lean into the Buddha's

[1:02:21] teaching as a scaffolding to hold us as

[1:02:25] we are

[1:02:26] going over this threshold because it's a

[1:02:28] rocky time, you know.

[1:02:30] >> How would a an individual human life

[1:02:33] change

[1:02:34] if if one could get a toehold in what

[1:02:39] you're talking about. If I started to

[1:02:40] see myself instead of some sort of

[1:02:43] separate

[1:02:44] entity, you know, using the earth as a

[1:02:46] backdrop for my personal performance,

[1:02:49] instead move to like, as you said

[1:02:51] before, a cell that is a small part of

[1:02:55] a living a larger living organism. How

[1:02:57] would my life likely change if I could

[1:03:00] really internalize that?

[1:03:02] >> You know, I can't really tell you that,

[1:03:03] you know. Everybody has to find out for

[1:03:06] themselves and I think it's a it's a

[1:03:08] multi-generational,

[1:03:10] you know, process.

[1:03:12] And we can begin that and see what

[1:03:14] happens. I can't really say it, but

[1:03:16] since I am taking more interest in that,

[1:03:20] you know, since about

[1:03:21] 4 years or so that I really uh

[1:03:25] work with that consciously, my life has

[1:03:28] changed in a way that I live now, you

[1:03:30] know, in a

[1:03:32] in a small temple space uh north of San

[1:03:35] Francisco, which is called Yellow Earth

[1:03:37] Room, which is a it's a place where I'm

[1:03:40] living together Buddhism and Earth

[1:03:42] Awareness.

[1:03:44] So, you know, my life has taken on

[1:03:48] a different expression since that is

[1:03:52] more central to my practice. And and I'm

[1:03:55] sure, you know, that

[1:03:58] for everyone it will express

[1:04:00] differently, but it will find a way, you

[1:04:04] know, because the Earth has been finding

[1:04:07] a way to sustain life since almost 5

[1:04:09] billion years without anybody telling

[1:04:11] her what to do. And it's more like I'm

[1:04:13] asking her, "What can I do

[1:04:16] to use

[1:04:18] what I have and who I am at this point

[1:04:20] in my life to support the process?"

[1:04:24] >> If people want to learn more about you

[1:04:26] and from you, how can they do so?

[1:04:28] >> The people can visit my website and I

[1:04:30] have every Wednesday from 9:00 to 10:00

[1:04:33] a.m. Pacific Time, I have an online

[1:04:37] community we are meeting for practice

[1:04:40] for 1 hour and then there's 15 minutes

[1:04:43] for Q&A at the end. And then many other

[1:04:47] retreats and other opportunities online

[1:04:49] and in person you can find on my

[1:04:52] website. And I just recently, you know,

[1:04:55] brought out a book which is called What

[1:04:57] Are You Waiting For? You can find all of

[1:04:59] that on my website.

[1:05:00] >> Okay, we will put a link to that in the

[1:05:02] show notes. Well, you just said what I

[1:05:04] was hoping to say to you. Thank you. It

[1:05:06] was such a pleasure to to [music] meet

[1:05:08] you, albeit virtually, and yeah, I just

[1:05:11] I'm really grateful for your time.

[1:05:13] >> Thank you, Dan. I'm also very glad that

[1:05:15] you invited me and and uh

[1:05:17] thank you so much and all the best for

[1:05:19] your

[1:05:20] uh life.

[1:05:23] >> Thank you. I appreciate it. I need it.

[1:05:25] Um and right back at you.

[1:05:27] >> [music]

[1:05:27] >> Thank you.

[1:05:29] >> Also, a quick ask before I let you go.

[1:05:31] If you've got a minute, head on over to

[1:05:33] danharris.com and sign up for my

[1:05:35] newsletter. It drops in your inbox on

[1:05:38] Monday mornings, often a busy and

[1:05:39] stressful time for us. I try to write a

[1:05:42] short essay that has a little bit of

[1:05:44] wisdom, actionable, [clears throat]

[1:05:46] practical wisdom that you can

[1:05:48] immediately weave into your life on

[1:05:50] Monday mornings. A lot of people find

[1:05:52] them helpful and I hope you will, too.

[1:05:54] You can sign up at danharris.com. It's

[1:05:56] totally free. Now to the credits.

[1:06:00] Thank you so much to everybody who works

[1:06:01] so hard to make this show. 10% Happier

[1:06:03] is produced by Tara Anderson, Marissa

[1:06:06] Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere, David Hart,

[1:06:08] and Hayden Broom. Post-production is

[1:06:11] handled by the great folks over at

[1:06:12] Greenhorn Creative. And Nick Thorburn of

[1:06:15] the great indie rock band Islands wrote

[1:06:17] our theme. Thank you for listening.

[1:06:19] Deuces.

Ten Percent Happier
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Letting-goSelf-improvementBuddhist-nunProjected-patternsPatience

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Ayya Santacitta describes it as the mind laying an old story over present events without noticing. Her example is being the responsible older sibling as a child and carrying that sense of duty into situations where it doesn't fit. Practice means slowing down enough to see the overlay as an overlay.
She argues that many beginners assume the work is about gaining more knowledge or becoming a better self. In her experience, the path is about letting go of conditioning that limits how we experience ourselves and the world. Self-improvement keeps the self at the center, while letting go questions whether that self was accurate in the first place.
In the 10% Happier conversation, Ayya presents heartbreak as something that can crack open the defenses that keep us from seeing clearly. The episode notes cite Dan Harris's panic attack as a case study and Joseph Goldstein's line 'Don't waste your suffering.' The idea is to treat suffering as material for practice rather than a sign of failure.
Ayya describes reaction as an automatic urge to resolve discomfort immediately, and response as a moment of choice. Her method is to notice the impulse, stay with the breath or your chosen object, and let the urge pass. She ties this skill to everyday relationships, including those that can save or strain a marriage.
Dan Harris introduced the conversation by noting that Ayya says patience is not just for old ladies. In the discussion, impatience is linked to the fear of uncertainty, so patience becomes the capacity to stay with not knowing long enough to see what is there.
Ayya Santacitta is a Western Buddhist nun who trained in England and Asia, primarily in the lineage of the Thai forest master Ajahn Chah. She lives and teaches from the Aloka Earth Room in San Rafael, California, and wrote the book What Are You Waiting For?
She was working in avant-garde theater and studying cultural anthropology when her mother died suddenly in a horse-riding accident, when Ayya was 28. That loss led her to seek a teacher, and she met her first teacher in the forest of South Thailand in 1988. She was ordained as a novice in 1993 and later became fully ordained.

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