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Inspiration

Regulate Your Nervous System for Better Sleep and Joy

RC
Rangan Chatterjee
Oct 28, 2026
8 min read

From Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Watch · 7

What if the biggest limit on how well you sleep, perform and show up for the people you love is not willpower or discipline but the quiet control system running beneath your ribs? In a long conversation with Dr Rangan Chatterjee, Dr Kristen Holmes, Global Head of Human Performance and Principal Scientist at WHOOP, makes the case that the autonomic nervous system is the foundation of health, capacity and emotional life, and that it can be trained through a small set of unglamorous daily habits. Her new book, Aligned, joins physiology and psychology in one argument: sleep timing and light exposure on one side, memory, attachment and self-compassion on the other. The episode runs from the biology of the two nervous system branches to the practical question of which health metric to track, and from morning light to the uncomfortable habit of reaching for sugar or a phone screen whenever something hurts.

Read · 6 sections

Who actually controls the autonomic nervous system?

The conversation opens with a provocation Holmes has used before: the world is divided into people who have control of their autonomic nervous system and people who don't. Her answer frames the whole book. Performance and health, she argues, are both constrained by capacity, and capacity is built by a robust autonomic nervous system. The people who thrive are not the ones who never feel stress. They are the ones who can respond in a way that matches who they want to be.

Holmes described her own practice in the first minutes of the episode:

"When I feel that dissonance bubble up, I don't just let it fester. I take some action and I course correct, right? And I bring myself back into a regulated state."

— Kristen Holmes, on Dr Rangan Chatterjee's podcast (about 0:00 to 2:20)

The mechanics she laid out are simple enough to hold in your head. The autonomic nervous system is part of the peripheral nervous system, which sits outside the brain and spinal cord. It has two branches, the sympathetic (the accelerator, mobilising you for action) and the parasympathetic (the brake, restoring calm). Both send competing signals to the heart. The more regulated you are, the more responsive your heart is to the shifting demands placed on it. Holmes used a stark example to make the point: when the heart stops responding to those demands, you are in serious trouble. Less dramatically, a disregulated system leaves you debilitated, unable to respond effectively to external stress.

This is why she describes regulation as the ability to toggle between activation and deactivation with conscious awareness. It is not about eliminating stress. It is about moving through it and back out again.

Why does a dysregulated nervous system look like aging?

Holmes took the idea further than performance. She pointed to a December 2025 opinion piece that examined the leading theories of aging and the hallmarks researchers usually list: telomere attrition, genomic instability, mitochondrial dysfunction and inflammation. Her reading of that piece is that these hallmarks are downstream of a disregulated autonomic nervous system. If that framing holds, the body's slow decline and its acute fatigue share a common root.

Chatterjee pushed the point toward relationships, and Holmes agreed that the stakes go beyond the body. Reactivity with a partner, a child or a colleague, she suggested, is also a product of the same system. Her summary was blunt: a well-regulated nervous system may be the most important thing to focus on, because better health, longevity and performance all flow from it, and so do the quality of our relationships.

The implication is that when someone says they want to be healthier, the first question is not which supplement or diet to add. It is how their nervous system is handling load, and whether they can recover from it at all.

Which daily habits build a more resilient nervous system?

Holmes organises the first half of Aligned around foundations most people have heard before: sleep and circadian alignment, appropriate training, appropriate rest, and a working understanding of stress and recovery. The novelty lies in how she connects them. The episode's description notes that she presents four simple, free behaviours, tested across 39,000 people, that support better sleep and recovery, and that the conversation highlights morning light and consistent sleep and wake times among them.

The circadian thread runs through the discussion. Chatterjee and Holmes spent time on the timing of light and the role of melatonin, the hormone that tells the body it is night. The practical takeaway is that the body reads light as a timing signal, and when that signal arrives at the wrong hour, sleep and recovery pay the price. Morning light and a steady wake time anchor the cycle. A steady bedtime keeps it from drifting.

When the conversation turned to choosing a single metric to track, Holmes engaged with the question seriously, weighing the trade-off between a number that is easy to read and one that reflects what is actually happening underneath. Her answer, and her reasoning, are worth hearing in full from the episode itself.

Why do we soothe discomfort with sugar, alcohol and scrolling?

Chatterjee raised a frustration many listeners will recognise. Health advice keeps repeating the dangers of sugar and alcohol, yet people keep reaching for them. His explanation is that behaviour is often downstream of mindset. If life feels bleak, the body wants relief, and ice cream, a drink or a feed of endless content is the fastest route. Telling someone to stop will not work if the feeling driving the habit is untouched.

Holmes agreed with the logic but moved the emphasis. She said she goes back and forth on whether physiology or psychology is the better entry point, and that there is truth in both. Her sharper point concerns self-perception rather than worldview: "it's not even how we see the world, it's how we see ourselves."

She illustrated this with her own story, which she tells at the opening of Aligned. She described her mother, who harmed herself over the course of her life through heavy drinking. Her verdict on that period: she did not love herself and did not have compassion for herself. For Holmes, that is where change has to begin. Before adjusting the diet, a person needs to work out what loving themselves actually looks like in practice: how the body should be treated, how the mind should be treated.

"When we feel that internal tension, that is usually a direct comment on something that matters to you. Instead of thinking about the thing that matters to us, because it might be a little uncomfortable, we soothe it with food or scrolling. We basically try to mute that signal."

— Kristen Holmes, on Dr Rangan Chatterjee's podcast (about 8:05 to 9:30)

Her call to action is to feel the signal rather than mute it. Get curious about it. Then decide whether the moment requires action or whether you can let it go. She is careful to say the decision itself matters less than the awareness behind it. The conscious pause is the skill. Sugar reduction and walking, she noted, are a kind of parasympathetic fix, a useful tool but not the whole repair.

Can change start from self-compassion rather than self-criticism?

The emotional core of the episode is Holmes's insistence that lasting change begins with understanding yourself rather than criticising yourself. Harsh self-judgement tends to produce the same thing it is trying to cure: more stress, more threat, more reason to soothe. Self-compassion, in her framing, is what lets someone look at the discomfort long enough to learn from it.

Identity is the lever she returns to. Asked what makes change stick, she reached for a broad answer: "I think the secret to life is identity." The work, as she puts it, is figuring out who you want to be and what you need to engage in to become that person. Carving out time and space for those commitments is what turns an abstract value into daily behaviour. Living in line with your values is, for her, the practical meaning of alignment.

The closing stretch of the conversation turns from management to meaning. Chatterjee and Holmes discuss cultivating joy rather than chasing happiness, the distinction between a feeling that comes and goes and a settled sense of peace, and the practice of loving-kindness. Holmes describes a relationship with an open heart as something that can be cultivated deliberately, not only stumbled into. Journaling comes up as one concrete way to start.

Where to go from here

If you take one thread from this conversation, make it the idea that regulation is a skill you can practise. Start with what is free and immediate: get outside in the morning light, keep your wake time steady, and notice the next time you reach for food or a screen to dull a feeling. Ask what the feeling is pointing at. Then decide whether it needs action.

For the full argument, read Aligned, which Holmes wrote to connect physiology with memory, attachment and identity. Listen to the full episode for the detail behind her four behaviours, her thinking on single-metric tracking, and the conversation about holidays and illness that the episode raises. The physiology gives you a starting point. The psychology, she suggests, is where the work actually changes you.

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Transcript

[0:00] I've once heard you say that the world

[0:02] is divided into two types of people.

[0:06] Those who have control of their

[0:08] autonomic nervous system and those who

[0:11] don't. Which group do you fall into?

[0:15] Well, that's a great place to start and

[0:17] and that's definitely the red thread um

[0:20] of aligned, you know, is is this idea

[0:22] that when we think about performance and

[0:25] we think about health, it is very much

[0:28] constrained by our capacity. And I guess

[0:32] the theory or the thesis of of the book

[0:34] is that we build capacity by building a

[0:37] robust autonomic nervous system.

[0:40] And and I suppose when we think about

[0:42] the world being divided in two, it's

[0:44] it's folks who have are able to respond

[0:48] in a way that is aligned with who they

[0:50] want to be in the world, right? And it's

[0:52] very difficult to do that when you have

[0:54] a disregulated nervous system.

[0:58] >> So I like to think that over the course

[1:00] of my life, I've arrived at a place

[1:02] where I'm able to have more control over

[1:05] my state. You know, I understand when I

[1:08] am drifting from who I want to be in the

[1:11] world. When I feel that dissonance

[1:12] bubble up, I don't just let it fester. I

[1:16] I take some action and I course correct,

[1:18] right? And I bring myself back into a

[1:20] regulated state. And and I think we can

[1:22] step back even further when we think

[1:24] about stress and exhaustion and

[1:27] >> aging even, you know, that those are

[1:30] hallmarks of a disregulated nervous

[1:33] system. And I think the literature, you

[1:35] know, there's a really great opinion

[1:36] piece that was published in December of

[1:38] of 2025

[1:40] where they look at the theory of aging

[1:43] and basically all the hallmarks of aging

[1:46] that we we consider, you know, telmir

[1:48] attrition and genomic instability and

[1:51] mitochondrial dysfunction, inflammation,

[1:53] all of these are actually downstream of

[1:56] a disregulated autonomic nervous system.

[1:59] >> Yeah. So I guess the idea is if we can

[2:02] bring ourselves back into balance, if we

[2:05] are able to effectively toggle in

[2:07] between stress activation and

[2:11] deactivation and and have a a level of

[2:14] conscious awareness, we can, I guess,

[2:16] have more control over the trajectory of

[2:18] our health and certainly over our

[2:21] performance levels. That's the case I

[2:23] make in in the book. And and a lot of

[2:25] that comes down to how we manage our

[2:28] downtime, how we think about recovery.

[2:31] >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the

[2:32] health and performance.

[2:35] >> For me, it goes even further than that.

[2:38] A wellmanaged, a well- reggulated

[2:41] autonomic nervous system.

[2:44] I'm not sure there's anything more

[2:45] important that we can focus on because

[2:48] yeah, the downstream of that is better

[2:50] health,

[2:51] >> right?

[2:51] >> Better longevity,

[2:52] >> better performance,

[2:54] But it's also how we are. Our

[2:56] relationships with our partner, with our

[2:58] children, with our colleagues.

[3:01] >> How many of us are reactive?

[3:05] >> Mhm.

[3:06] >> These days, you know, we're we're not

[3:08] bringing our best selves to our

[3:10] relationships

[3:11] >> and it's all downstream from a

[3:14] disregulated autonomic nervous system.

[3:16] So, can you explain in your words

[3:18] >> what is an autonomic nervous system?

[3:21] >> Um, and then maybe comment on what I've

[3:23] just said. Yeah. Yeah. So you have the

[3:25] central nervous system which is made up

[3:26] of the brain and the spinal cords. They

[3:28] have the peripheral nervous system which

[3:29] is part of that is the autonomic nervous

[3:31] system. And the autonomic nervous system

[3:33] has two branches, the parasympathetic

[3:36] and the sympathetic. And they're both

[3:38] competing to send signals to the heart.

[3:40] The the more regulated you are, the more

[3:42] responsive your heart is going to be to

[3:44] the demands of the autonomic nervous

[3:46] system.

[3:48] And so

[3:50] when and you can imagine a scenario when

[3:52] your heart no longer becomes responsive

[3:54] to the demands of the outer nervous

[3:56] system, you're dead.

[3:57] >> Yeah.

[3:58] >> You know, or or you are debilitated to a

[4:00] degree where you can't respond

[4:02] effectively to external stress.

[4:04] >> Mhm.

[4:05] >> And I think that's the opportunity is to

[4:07] be able to respond just all the things

[4:09] that you've just outlined beautifully.

[4:11] Those are the things that we want to be

[4:13] able to respond and engage with

[4:16] >> in a in a way that feels good to us, you

[4:19] know, and and in order to kind of get to

[4:22] a place of good, what are the behaviors,

[4:25] the foundational stuff that allow me to

[4:28] perform, which is really an expression

[4:30] of capacity. So when we zoom out, we're

[4:33] like, how do we actually build capacity?

[4:34] How do we build a rob a robust autonomic

[4:36] nervous system? And a lot of those

[4:38] things are the stuff that's talked about

[4:40] a lot. You know, sleep and circadian

[4:41] alignment, um, you know, appropriate

[4:44] training, um, appropriate levels of

[4:45] rest, understanding stress and rest at a

[4:48] very foundational level. And that's kind

[4:49] of the first half of the book. And then

[4:51] I guess the second part of the book is

[4:53] is really more of how do we think about

[4:55] time and expectations, attachments,

[4:57] right? Memory, right? Like that those

[4:59] are things that we we don't consider

[5:00] those as dimensions that influence how

[5:03] we show up in the world, right? that

[5:05] that actually originate in the autonomic

[5:07] nervous system.

[5:07] >> Yeah. One one of the things I've always

[5:09] loved about your work and I particularly

[5:11] like about the new book Aligned

[5:14] is

[5:16] the fact that you're covering both

[5:18] physiology and psychology.

[5:22] >> And I guess I'm biased. I like that

[5:24] because that's how I see the human body.

[5:27] I don't think you can actually look at

[5:28] one without the other. And I think when

[5:30] we try and do that, we really struggle.

[5:33] So I know with health for example,

[5:36] >> you know, health and wellbeing is all

[5:37] the rage these days. You know, there's

[5:39] many podcasts like this one where we're

[5:40] trying to share

[5:42] >> positive empowering information.

[5:45] >> But the problem is I found that often

[5:48] the behaviors we want to do, let's say,

[5:51] you know, go for daily walks, reduce how

[5:54] much sugar we're having, whatever it

[5:55] might be,

[5:57] >> they're often downstream from our

[5:59] mindset and the way we feel about the

[6:01] world. So if

[6:04] >> things aren't going well and we've taken

[6:05] a very negative view on how our life is,

[6:09] >> well, you're much more likely to want to

[6:11] soothe your internal discomfort with

[6:14] sugar and ice cream and alcohol. So we

[6:16] can keep telling you about the dangers

[6:18] of excess sugar and excess alcohol,

[6:20] right?

[6:21] >> But perhaps you need to address the

[6:24] psychology first and that will then

[6:27] automatically change those behaviors.

[6:29] >> Do you know what I mean?

[6:30] >> Yeah. For sure. I you know I go back and

[6:32] forth on this all the time. I I

[6:34] sometimes feel like the entry point is

[6:35] through the physiology, right? And and I

[6:38] think there's some truth to that, but

[6:39] but you you land on a really important

[6:41] point and and I think it's it's not even

[6:44] how we see the world, it's how we see

[6:46] ourselves.

[6:47] And I think a lot of the self-sabotage

[6:50] that happens and I and I open the the

[6:52] book

[6:54] about the story of my mother, you know,

[6:56] and and you know, just witnessing her um

[7:01] essentially kill herself over the course

[7:03] of her life by abusing alcohol. She did

[7:05] not love herself. She did not have

[7:08] compassion toward herself. Right? And I

[7:10] think I think it that is the place to

[7:12] start is you have to figure out okay

[7:15] what is what does loving myself actually

[7:17] look like? How do I need to treat my

[7:18] body? How do I need to treat my mind?

[7:21] you know and and I think all the things

[7:24] that you talked about reducing sugar and

[7:25] you know those those are those are I

[7:28] call them kind of parasympathetic fixes

[7:29] right we've got so if we go back to the

[7:31] autonomic nervous system

[7:33] >> okay

[7:34] >> when we feel that internal tension right

[7:37] that is usually a direct comment on

[7:40] something that matters to you instead of

[7:43] thinking about the thing that matters to

[7:45] us because it might be a little

[7:46] uncomfortable we soothe it with the food

[7:50] or scrolling or

[7:53] >> yeah,

[7:53] >> you know, we we basically try to mute

[7:55] that signal.

[7:57] >> And I think that's the call to action is

[7:59] we need to actually feel that signal. We

[8:03] need to try to understand it, get

[8:05] curious about it, right? And and figure

[8:08] out, okay, do I need to take action

[8:10] here?

[8:11] >> Yeah.

[8:11] >> Is is there an action that's required of

[8:13] me or do I let it go? But I think just

[8:16] that conscious awareness of like, okay,

[8:20] this is a moment where I feel that

[8:22] dissonance, that tension, what am I

[8:25] going to do about it?

[8:26] >> Mhm.

[8:27] >> And I think just that small conversation

[8:30] with yourself puts you in a seat of

[8:33] agency as opposed to just allowing life

[8:36] to happen to you. Yeah, it it's for for

[8:40] me this the secret to this long-term

[8:43] sustainable change that actually we're

[8:45] all looking for, but no one's really

[8:47] looking for a quick fix.

[8:49] >> We might think we are, but ultimately we

[8:51] want proper transformation.

[8:53] >> Totally.

[8:54] >> You kind of got to do the work to know

[8:56] yourself, understand yourself, and I

[8:58] also like you have this, you know,

[9:01] >> try to figure out is it body first then

[9:03] mind? Is it mind first and then body? Uh

[9:05] I remember many years ago friend of mine

[9:07] Dallas Hartwick who uh created the whole

[9:09] 30 with his oh with Melissa many many

[9:12] years ago. I think their first book was

[9:14] it starts with food from recollection

[9:16] many many years ago.

[9:18] >> I remember I remember was at a

[9:19] conference with Dallas and I remember

[9:20] talking to him saying

[9:22] >> mate

[9:23] >> it doesn't start with food for everyone.

[9:26] Yes.

[9:26] >> Right.

[9:27] >> We've all got different entry points.

[9:29] Yes. And for some people, yeah, it does

[9:31] start with food and it does start with

[9:32] physiology, but for some people, their

[9:35] entry point is with psychology, and

[9:37] that's okay as well.

[9:39] >> Exactly. And I and that's kind of how I

[9:41] structured the book, like and and how

[9:43] there's a workbook at the end. And it it

[9:45] basically takes you chapter by chapter.

[9:47] And for some folks, it might be just

[9:50] understanding the relationship between

[9:51] stress and rest. You know, that they

[9:53] have this demand mismatch in their life

[9:56] that is so egregious, right? That might

[9:58] be where they start. Or it might be they

[10:01] view the world they're they're they're

[10:03] they have unresolved trauma and they

[10:05] need to really heal. And what does that

[10:07] healing process look like? That might be

[10:09] their entry point. Right. To your point,

[10:10] we all have the thing that is kind of I

[10:14] think at the at the at the basic level

[10:17] is keeping us from being that version of

[10:19] ourel that we aspire to be, you know,

[10:22] and and recognizing what is holding us

[10:25] back is the most beautiful source of

[10:27] insight we can have, right? And then

[10:29] just figuring out, okay, if this is the

[10:31] thing that's holding me back,

[10:33] >> how do I how do I make that leap? Right?

[10:36] And I I think you said it like

[10:37] transformation

[10:39] and in the opening of the book um

[10:41] Rebecca Solstus she wrote this this this

[10:43] a beautiful book on on on just this

[10:46] notion of of transfer transformation and

[10:48] and she says that we are often scared of

[10:51] transformation because we don't actually

[10:53] know what's on the other side

[10:55] >> and that in itself is a source of

[10:57] insight okay am I scared of what that

[10:59] change could mean in terms of how it

[11:01] might shift my partnerships or you know

[11:03] my my my relationship with my partner or

[11:05] how It might maybe I I do this work and

[11:08] realize that the job I'm in is not the

[11:10] job I want to be in, you know, but I've

[11:12] got to pay bills. And you know, there's

[11:14] a little bit of a reckoning that comes

[11:15] with with change. And I think that fear

[11:18] is sometimes what holds holds people

[11:19] back.

[11:20] >> But I think that's part of the

[11:21] invitation of this book is like you got

[11:24] to just make the leap.

[11:25] >> Yeah. That there's a beautiful chapter

[11:27] um where you talk about trust and fear

[11:30] >> and from recollection

[11:32] you talk about certainty there. this

[11:34] this this idea that certainty is an

[11:38] illusion, right? We want to be certain

[11:40] of the outcome before we make a change,

[11:44] >> but you can't be.

[11:45] >> Yeah.

[11:45] >> Cuz you've never been there before,

[11:47] right? And the version of you who might

[11:49] be trying this time is different from

[11:50] the version of you who tried 5 years

[11:51] ago.

[11:52] >> So, you got to get away from this idea

[11:55] of certainty. And I think I remember

[11:57] right at the start of the question I

[11:58] asked you was about this this this word

[12:00] control of their autonomic nervous

[12:02] system.

[12:03] That word control I have really thought

[12:05] about and meditated on for years and and

[12:07] and I' I'd welcome your view on this.

[12:11] >> The way I see control is internal

[12:15] control versus external control.

[12:18] >> So I can't control the external world.

[12:21] >> Whether it's going to rain or sun, you

[12:24] know, or whether someone's going to cut

[12:25] me up or not, I can't control that. But

[12:28] with enough intention

[12:30] >> and with enough work,

[12:33] >> I can actually learn how to control my

[12:36] internal environment. Right? That's what

[12:38] you're talking about. Yeah.

[12:39] >> Have you got control of your autonomic

[12:40] nervous system? Basically, another put

[12:42] it another way.

[12:43] >> Are you able to exercise control over

[12:47] your internal environment or not? That's

[12:49] kind of what it comes down to, doesn't

[12:50] it?

[12:50] >> For sure. Yes. Exactly. And and I think

[12:54] when you have control of your internal

[12:56] state and you can um

[12:58] >> bring yourself back into balance,

[13:02] it it changes how you move through the

[13:05] world, right? It gives you a sense of

[13:07] agency, I think, is maybe is is I think

[13:09] the synonym to kind of control in in a

[13:11] way. And I think control comes with a

[13:12] lot of baggage, right? Certainly does

[13:14] for me. Um, I use it in the in the book,

[13:17] but but I but I think I'm careful to to

[13:19] make sure people understand that this is

[13:21] really at the end of the day about

[13:22] agency. Yeah. Having agency over your

[13:24] internal landscape, you know, and I open

[13:26] that chapter, trust and fear, with a

[13:28] poem that I wrote called Relinquishing.

[13:30] >> Beautiful.

[13:31] >> And thank you. And I but but I you know

[13:33] I I wrote that because of this tension I

[13:37] have in my own life around uncertainty

[13:40] and that and and I write in that poem

[13:43] that that's that's probably the the the

[13:46] price or the the cost of the beauty

[13:48] right is is this uncertainty and when we

[13:51] shift our lens that

[13:52] >> uncertainty is kind of a gift in in a

[13:54] lot of ways it's it it brings

[13:56] spontaneity right it it's we don't know

[13:58] what's going to happen next right so all

[14:00] we can really do is focus on the here

[14:03] and now. It it releases us. It

[14:05] relinquishes it relinquishes us of that

[14:08] pressure of thinking about what's

[14:10] happening next. Right. And and then

[14:12] you're left all you're left with is just

[14:14] right now. And I I I don't know that

[14:17] there's really anything more freeing.

[14:19] >> Yeah. I love it. I'm I'm there's so many

[14:22] rabbit holes I want to go down because

[14:23] you know that thing there, you know, you

[14:25] just mentioned then that you have this

[14:26] uh time framework later on and E is

[14:29] expectation. And I've been thinking a

[14:31] lot about

[14:32] >> how much expectations can sabotage our

[14:35] lives and get in the way. You know, you

[14:37] go to,

[14:38] >> I don't know, simple example, you go to

[14:40] the restaurant once and you have a great

[14:42] meal, [laughter]

[14:43] >> it it genuinely is almost never as good

[14:48] the second time because what's changed?

[14:49] Well, even if they cook it in exactly

[14:51] the same way, [laughter] which is

[14:53] probably impossible anyway,

[14:54] >> it's the ambiance, it's the the smells,

[14:56] it's the where you're sitting. You're

[14:58] going in now with an expectation. Oh my

[15:00] god, that spaghetti bolognese was

[15:02] phenomenal. Like, hey guys, come along.

[15:04] >> I know

[15:04] >> you can't wait. Right. So, let let me

[15:06] just park that cuz I I want to go there,

[15:08] but I want to also ground people in um

[15:13] >> some some kind of simple things that

[15:14] they can think about. Right. So, so far

[15:16] we're talking about this fact that

[15:19] >> the health of your autonomic nervous

[15:21] system,

[15:22] >> the integrity of it is really important

[15:24] for health, longevity, performance,

[15:26] whatever you want. and your

[15:27] relationships, right? And we've said

[15:30] that you can enter to improve the

[15:34] function of the ANS, the autonomic

[15:35] nervous system,

[15:37] >> through physical health or through

[15:40] mindset and psychology, right?

[15:41] [clears throat]

[15:42] >> You published a paper, I think a couple

[15:43] of years ago about these four key

[15:45] behaviors

[15:47] >> that help us to help our autonomic

[15:49] nervous system. So

[15:50] >> yeah, it it increased parasympathetic

[15:52] tone. Tell us about respiratory. Tell us

[15:54] about that paper because I think what I

[15:56] love about these four behaviors is that

[15:57] they are completely free of charge for

[16:00] people

[16:00] >> democratically available and free.

[16:02] >> Exactly. So let's talk about that.

[16:04] >> And this paper it was published in sleep

[16:06] um which is a you know a premier journal

[16:08] in in the the field of sleep medicine

[16:10] and um so it was really exciting. it was

[16:12] received I think uh really well and

[16:15] because that these were just free

[16:17] behaviors you know and and I and to be

[16:19] able to kind of quantify the impact of

[16:21] the behaviors was was exciting and

[16:23] basically what I did is I put out a

[16:25] challenge to all the members on the Woot

[16:27] platform I said you know if you're

[16:29] interested in improving your autonomic

[16:32] nervous system and um if you're

[16:34] interested in maybe improving your sleep

[16:36] I want you to give these four behaviors

[16:38] a try. So, it basically invited them

[16:40] into this challenge and we had 39,000

[16:43] people sign up for this challenge. Um,

[16:46] and I just basically gave them the

[16:48] protocol for each behavior. And I said,

[16:51] "You can do all of them. You can do one

[16:52] of them. Try to do it as consistently as

[16:55] possible." And one was timerestricted

[16:57] eating. Um, which is basically just

[16:59] consolidating your calories during the

[17:01] daylight. So, I said just pick 12 hours

[17:03] where you can eat all of your food and

[17:05] just try to do that consistently. So,

[17:07] not even 10 or 8 hours. Very manageable

[17:09] for most people. A 12hour eating window.

[17:12] >> Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, 7 to 7.

[17:13] That's, you know, that really gives you

[17:14] a nice chunk of time to get your

[17:16] calories in. Most Americans are eating

[17:19] around 15 hours across the day, right?

[17:22] Usually right up to bedtime,

[17:24] >> which has, you know, there's a

[17:25] thermulatory effect of food, but there's

[17:27] also circadian component. So, there's

[17:29] kind of two competing issues that um

[17:33] >> end having end up having impact on your

[17:35] sleep and recovery. Um but yeah, so

[17:38] basically 12-hour window, you want to

[17:39] give yourself um I recommended a 2 to

[17:41] three hour buffer between your last

[17:43] calorie and when you intend to sleep. Um

[17:45] so if it's 8 to 8, you know, just kind

[17:46] of thinking about that in in context of

[17:48] your bedtime. Um and then the second

[17:51] behavior was morning sunlight. So just

[17:54] getting out, I said a minimum of five

[17:56] minutes. Um so again, really doable, but

[17:58] just getting outside.

[18:00] >> Is that within 20 minutes of waking up?

[18:01] >> Within 20. That was the protocol. Yeah.

[18:03] So within 20 minutes of waking up,

[18:05] getting outside for at least 5 minutes.

[18:07] Um, but if you could swing 20.

[18:09] >> Can I just clarify something? Sorry to

[18:10] interrupt.

[18:12] >> Um, initially you said 5 minutes of

[18:14] sunlight. Then you said outside and I

[18:16] know people will be thinking

[18:18] >> especially, you know, yes, in the UK

[18:20] we've had a phenomenal summer, but

[18:22] autumn is it's about to get dark. It's

[18:23] well and truly here.

[18:25] >> So, is it sunlight? Is it natural light?

[18:28] Is is a cloudy day. Okay.

[18:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying.

[18:32] Natural light is what the protocol

[18:33] recommended. So just it doesn't need to

[18:35] be sunny, cloudy, like just getting

[18:37] outside, feeling the temperature on your

[18:41] skin, um letting your eyes kind of look

[18:44] up at the the sky, you know, just really

[18:46] just basic simple stuff that helps set

[18:48] our circadian rhythm. And that basically

[18:51] then, you know, it it just cortisol like

[18:53] all the hormones that are associated

[18:55] with being awake kind of then know what

[18:57] to do, right? You're giving your body

[18:59] information. And light is one of the

[19:00] strongest cues that we can that our body

[19:04] is so desperate to have. So it

[19:07] understands what it needs to do, right?

[19:09] It basically reduces the confusion in

[19:11] your body when it gets that signal

[19:13] within 20 minutes of waking up. It knows

[19:15] it's time to be alert, it's time to be

[19:17] awake. It also then um will help your

[19:20] body understand when it needs to release

[19:21] melatonin. So a lot of folks don't

[19:23] associate that morning sunlight with

[19:25] actually what's happening maybe 16 hours

[19:27] later which is that that release of

[19:29] melatonin which is also so critical for

[19:31] health absolutely for sleep but also as

[19:34] a really powerful antioxidant. So that

[19:36] morning sunlight was really huge um and

[19:39] or morning light I should say and if

[19:41] it's if it's still dark out when you

[19:43] wake up which for a lot of us in these

[19:44] northern latitudes that's the case bathe

[19:47] yourself in artificial light. It's just

[19:49] that light signal is is really what

[19:50] we're after here. Interestingly, one

[19:52] thing I've changed over the last year,

[19:54] and this is probably

[19:57] since um I spent five days in uh in

[20:01] Washington State with with this uh

[20:04] functional optometrist called Dr. Bryce

[20:06] Applebound. We did five days of intense

[20:08] training and I improved various aspects

[20:11] of my eyesight and vision. [gasps]

[20:13] >> It it was it was just incredible.

[20:15] >> Wow.

[20:17] But one of the things I really

[20:18] understood from talking to him is, you

[20:21] know, good practices when um when

[20:25] reading,

[20:26] >> you know, and all kinds of things. And I

[20:27] I I because I get up so early

[20:29] >> and in the autumn and winter, it will be

[20:31] pitch black.

[20:32] >> Yes.

[20:33] >> And [laughter] I'll keep it nice and

[20:34] dark, right? I'll keep a nice little

[20:36] side lamp on, make my coffee, I'll sit

[20:38] there, I'll read,

[20:40] >> and I like that. But one thing I I did

[20:42] change is thought actually I'm not sure

[20:44] this is the best thing for my eyes

[20:45] actually in the morning. So now when I

[20:46] come down is the kitchen.

[20:48] >> Everyone's asleep upstairs so it doesn't

[20:49] affect I just shove on all the lights

[20:51] and I'm I've got real bright lights. So

[20:53] that's kind of interesting.

[20:54] >> I've had a cuz I love that cozy morning

[20:56] too but I it isn't great.

[20:58] >> As many of you know when glucose is

[21:01] relatively stable you feel better

[21:03] daytoday with steadier energy, mood and

[21:06] focus. But over time, unstable and

[21:09] elevated glucose can also impair your

[21:12] metabolic health and increase the risk

[21:14] of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular

[21:17] disease. Now, globally, more than 760

[21:21] million adults are thought to have

[21:24] pre-diabetes,

[21:25] many without symptoms or a diagnosis.

[21:28] And the problem is that our health care

[21:31] system often waits until you get sick

[21:34] before taking action. when we should

[21:37] take a proactive approach to prevent

[21:39] problems before they start. Now, many of

[21:42] us don't have access to our own glucose

[21:44] data and therefore don't have clear

[21:46] feedback on how our everyday choices

[21:49] impact our glucose. That's where Lingo

[21:52] by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a bio

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[22:34] >> So definitely bright light. Yeah. And

[22:35] and turning on even if it's dark and but

[22:37] that's when you want to wake up.

[22:39] >> Eating light exposure. Number two.

[22:41] What's number three?

[22:42] >> The other one was uh breathing. So um so

[22:45] the idea that so basically I was trying

[22:47] to create conditions that would allow

[22:50] people to get to a more stable sleepwake

[22:52] time. Okay. So that's kind of in the

[22:54] background what I was really trying to

[22:56] do with these behaviors is will this

[22:58] actually help people fall asleep at a

[23:00] more regular time. That was my

[23:02] hypothesis going in that if they could

[23:04] engage in these kind of circadian type

[23:06] behaviors, sleep facilitating type

[23:08] behaviors, um would that actually help

[23:11] stabilize their sleepwake time? So I'll

[23:12] come back to that but so breathing

[23:15] negative stress accumulation throughout

[23:16] the day is one of the biggest uh

[23:19] problems with regard to sleep onset and

[23:22] being able to stay asleep when we are

[23:24] exhibiting or experiencing a lot of um I

[23:27] call it kind of unanswered stress

[23:29] throughout the day that will negatively

[23:32] impact our sleep right and I we've all

[23:34] experienced that right when we are

[23:35] appraising and I have another paper

[23:37] published in emotion where we looked at

[23:38] threat and challenge if you appraise

[23:39] your day as threatening um versus

[23:42] challenging it your sleep quality will

[23:44] be uh impaired

[23:46] >> mindset affecting physiology.

[23:49] >> Oh, this is the first paper to show.

[23:50] Yeah, it we published an emotion. It is

[23:52] a phenomenal experiment. So, I'll go I

[23:54] can go back to that if you want, but

[23:56] slowpaced breathing is [snorts]

[23:57] throughout the day. So, basically just

[23:59] said, you know, throughout the day after

[24:00] you experience a bout of stress, good or

[24:02] bad, you know, don't worry about

[24:04] labeling it. Your body doesn't even know

[24:05] if it's good or bad really. Um it's

[24:08] stress is stress, right? you're

[24:09] activating the the autonomic nervous

[24:11] system. So I said anytime your heart

[24:12] rate is increasing, you're activating

[24:14] the nervous system. Um you want to map

[24:16] that with appropriate levels of rest. So

[24:18] just engage in some slow pace breathing.

[24:20] Bring your heart rate down actively in

[24:23] [snorts] through the nose, out through

[24:24] the nose, and just do that for a minute

[24:26] or so. I also gave them the

[24:28] physiological sigh, which we know helps

[24:30] reduce anxiety up to 5 hours after the

[24:33] protocol.

[24:33] >> Can you just explain what that is? So

[24:35] the physiological side, yep, is

[24:36] basically a double inhale followed by an

[24:38] extended exhale.

[24:39] >> Nose or mouth, doesn't it matter?

[24:43] >> In through the nose, double in through

[24:44] the nose, out through the mouth.

[24:46] [snorts]

[24:47] >> Exactly. You let the breath just fall

[24:48] out. And you can do, you know, the the

[24:52] published work is 5 minutes of the

[24:54] physiology is a very long time. Um I

[24:57] tell folks, I'm just like even 30

[24:58] seconds, a minute, 90 seconds, whatever

[25:00] you can do. Um the protocol I said at

[25:02] least a minute um up to five um of just

[25:06] this slow pace breathing and I said if

[25:08] they can prioritize one of this the slow

[25:10] pace right when they get into bed to

[25:13] bring the heart down that's also a great

[25:16] signal that your body feels safe and it

[25:18] can drop into those deeper stages of

[25:20] sleep faster.

[25:22] >> So that was the sec the third one and

[25:24] then the final one was zone two. So, the

[25:27] reason why I put zone 2 training in, and

[25:29] you can row, you can swim, you can walk,

[25:32] you can jog, depending on your fitness

[25:34] level, whatever zone 2 is for you,

[25:37] engage at least 30 minutes up to an

[25:40] hour. Um, and what we see in the data,

[25:43] and I put this in the book, too, is that

[25:45] I don't even call zone 2 exercise.

[25:48] >> I call it it's a recovery modality.

[25:50] bonus if you're outside because that

[25:53] contrast between day and night is so so

[25:56] important. Um so those are the four

[25:59] behaviors and indeed what we ended up

[26:00] seeing is that the folks that engaged in

[26:02] these behaviors saw improvements in

[26:04] sleepwake consistency

[26:06] and then which so that was the mediator

[26:09] and and then and basically so for those

[26:11] folks who improved their sleepwake

[26:12] consistency they we saw improvements in

[26:14] their cardiorespiratory fitness um and

[26:17] that was measured by uh their resting

[26:19] heart rate and then we also saw

[26:20] improvements in heart rate variability

[26:22] so their their parasympathetic tone

[26:24] >> so they had improvements in our HRV

[26:26] improvements in resting heart rate um

[26:28] and that was mediated by sleepwake

[26:30] consistency. So my hypothesis kind of

[26:33] held true in that these four kind of

[26:36] circadianish sleep behaviors helped

[26:39] actually regulate the the the system to

[26:42] a degree that it helped facilitate

[26:44] sleepwake consistency which is a really

[26:45] hard behavior. Feeling sleepy at a

[26:47] particular time is hard in the modern

[26:50] world

[26:50] >> right

[26:50] >> and that's what based on these data

[26:52] that's what we help to facilitate. It's

[26:54] exciting. Okay, a lot to unpack there.

[26:57] So, um

[26:58] >> I just want to make sure everyone

[27:00] understands those behaviors.

[27:01] >> Yeah,

[27:02] >> zone 2 is, I guess, a relatively common

[27:05] term in the in the kind of online health

[27:08] space, but I I never want to assume that

[27:10] everyone listening knows what zone 2

[27:12] even means.

[27:13] >> Uh could you just sort of expand on that

[27:15] a little bit?

[27:15] >> So, if you do not have access to

[27:18] technology, so it's, you know, generally

[27:20] 50 to 60% of your maximum heart rate.

[27:22] Um, but if you don't have a way to

[27:25] measure that, um, it's basically just an

[27:27] activity where you can comfortably talk.

[27:31] So, you can imagine doing a power walk

[27:33] with your friends. Um, as long as you

[27:35] can talk relatively comfortably, you're

[27:37] in zone two.

[27:39] >> Yeah.

[27:39] >> Um, you don't want it to be so

[27:41] comfortable that like, you know, it's

[27:43] just you and I kind of sitting here. Um,

[27:45] you want it to be, you know, not not

[27:48] even like challenging, I guess. You

[27:50] know, for me it's just a slow jog, you

[27:52] know, and I just I'm able to, you know,

[27:54] talk comfortably and

[27:56] >> but it could be a brisk walk for some

[27:57] people,

[27:57] >> a brisk walk with a vest, a weighted

[27:59] vest or something. Who knows? Yeah. Um,

[28:01] so

[28:02] >> so what what what I like about those

[28:03] four behaviors is if I think about them

[28:06] through the lens of

[28:07] >> what I've been talking about for many

[28:09] years, which is these four pillars of

[28:10] health.

[28:11] >> Yeah, I love it.

[28:11] >> And I kind of feel each one speaks to a

[28:14] different pillar. Nutrition is dealt

[28:16] with with the time restricted eating.

[28:18] Eat all your food within a 12-hour

[28:19] window.

[28:20] Movement is addressed with your zone 2

[28:23] recommendation for was it at least 30

[28:25] minutes?

[28:26] >> Yes.

[28:26] >> Right. Relaxation or stress reduction is

[28:30] addressed through your breath work.

[28:32] Right. And then sleep is kind of

[28:34] addressed counterintuitively in some

[28:36] ways by morning light exposure which

[28:38] helps you sleep better at night. So,

[28:41] we're dealing with these core four

[28:43] pillars, which I think is a really

[28:45] >> empowering message because what I love

[28:46] about those is they're free behaviors,

[28:49] right?

[28:50] >> Most people, whoever they are, wherever

[28:52] they're listening to this

[28:53] >> at the end of this episode, could go,

[28:55] hm,

[28:56] >> I wonder if I could bring those four

[28:58] free behaviors into my life. Now,

[29:00] >> I framed it around the autonomic nervous

[29:02] system,

[29:04] >> but of course, you also mentioned that

[29:06] you had this hypothesis about the

[29:07] sleepwake cycle. So I think we need to

[29:09] unpack that a little bit.

[29:12] >> Why is a sleepw

[29:15] autonomic nervous system?

[29:16] >> Yeah. So sleepweight consistency um is a

[29:20] driver of sleep quality and sleep

[29:22] quality is really the only kind of

[29:26] metric inside sleep that's linearly

[29:30] correlated with heart rate variability

[29:32] which is a proxy measure of the

[29:33] autonomic nervous system. So heart rate

[29:36] variability is basically the um time

[29:40] interval between heartbeats. Your heart

[29:41] rate variability is a measure of that.

[29:43] So your heart doesn't beat on a

[29:44] metronome. It has, you know, it's very

[29:46] you've got, you know, it's over the

[29:48] course of 60 um seconds, you know, your

[29:51] your first beat will maybe be, you know,

[29:55] 44 milliseconds. the next one will be

[29:58] 792 and the next one you know so that

[30:00] variability is actually an indicator of

[30:03] your autonomic health the more

[30:05] variability the higher your heart rate

[30:07] variability the better

[30:09] >> so we all want higher HRV basically

[30:13] >> relative to your own baseline it's

[30:15] modifiable you know I talk about this

[30:16] throughout the book you know that and

[30:18] when we kind of go back to the world's

[30:20] divided into two you know the the heart

[30:23] of variability is just a good measure of

[30:25] where you sit on you know on this

[30:27] spectrum right do you have control of

[30:28] your autonomic nervous system are you

[30:30] able to respond and adapt to stress in a

[30:34] functional way

[30:35] >> in fact can I just interrupt there and

[30:37] ask a question which just came to me

[30:40] >> if you could only

[30:42] >> okay

[30:44] >> measure one metric on an individual

[30:49] >> right to get a snapshot

[30:53] >> of their health and wellbeing Would

[30:56] it be HRV? Well, I'd probably I'd

[30:58] probably do V2 max

[31:00] >> really

[31:01] >> because

[31:02] that like that's also highly correlated

[31:05] with heart rate variability and resting

[31:07] heart rate which is G basically gives

[31:09] you a snapshot of your cardiorespiratory

[31:11] fitness right so it's so I I think with

[31:14] with HRV moves around a ton right it's

[31:17] super sensitive so it's it's um

[31:21] >> you know and and V2 max obviously not

[31:23] something you're looking at every day

[31:24] you could argue HRV you're looking at as

[31:26] a snapshot

[31:27] Um, but I would say V2 max because that

[31:31] would give you a better, more specific

[31:34] way. You would know what you need to do

[31:37] in order to improve your V2 max, right?

[31:41] So, if your V2 max is trending down,

[31:43] you're like, "All right, I need to run

[31:44] harder. Essentially, I need to work my

[31:46] heart harder in order to improve my V2

[31:48] max."

[31:48] >> Okay. So,

[31:49] >> so yeah, V2 max.

[31:50] >> That's interesting. I wasn't necessarily

[31:52] expecting that. So, that's again

[31:53] problems with expectations, right? Yeah.

[31:55] >> So, okay, that's super interesting

[31:56] because I actually thought you might go

[31:58] for HRV and go, well, actually, this is

[32:00] a

[32:00] >> one of the best markers of the overall

[32:02] functioning of our nervous system, which

[32:04] of course it is.

[32:05] >> It is,

[32:06] >> but I think again, we're going to have

[32:08] to explain what V2 max is for people who

[32:10] don't know. And then additionally to

[32:13] that,

[32:15] if someone has got a good V2 max, you

[32:19] know, and we can, you know, discuss what

[32:22] good might mean for someone's age.

[32:25] >> Can we then assume that lots of other

[32:28] things are happening.

[32:29] >> I guess that's what I'm saying.

[32:31] >> Like you're going to have a good fun

[32:33] welling nervous system otherwise you

[32:35] wouldn't be having a good V2 max.

[32:36] >> Yes.

[32:37] >> So it's almost higher root cause sort of

[32:39] thing.

[32:39] >> 100%. Yeah. And I think it's it's just

[32:42] um it's it's uh it's very actionable,

[32:46] you know. Um and not to say that heart

[32:48] rate variability is not, but um but I

[32:50] just think yeah, V2 max just is uh it

[32:54] just gives us that really great overall

[32:56] snapshot of your overall health. Yeah.

[33:00] >> Yeah. That's I that's made me think cuz

[33:02] I done for

[33:04] >> I went to Sulford uh sports science lab

[33:08] >> two maybe three years ago and did it cuz

[33:10] it's quite hard to do right you know for

[33:12] >> Oh they push you hard comfortable. Yeah.

[33:14] >> But I haven't done it for a while and

[33:16] I'm feeling as fit as I felt in ages. So

[33:18] that's a good give it a try. Yeah. I

[33:19] think I'm going to go and get it done.

[33:20] >> It's good. I Yeah. I like keeping I like

[33:22] keeping track of of mine. Um, you know,

[33:24] we we measure it passively on Whoop and

[33:27] I get mine tested, you know, a couple

[33:29] times a year usually.

[33:30] >> Twice a year.

[33:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Usually, so November,

[33:32] actually, I haven't been. Um, so I I my

[33:36] last V2 max in a lab was in November.

[33:39] So, um, I I didn't I didn't do it, but

[33:41] yeah.

[33:42] >> And can you just explain exactly what V2

[33:44] max means?

[33:45] >> Yeah. So, it's basically is, you know,

[33:46] how much oxygen you can take in during

[33:48] the most intense exercise. So, it's just

[33:51] it's a measure of kind of your oxygen

[33:52] consumption during intense exercise. And

[33:56] V2 max, um, you know, for folks who who

[33:58] aren't aware, it's it's it's probably

[34:00] our one of the greatest predictors of

[34:02] longevity. Um, it really, you know, it's

[34:05] it's you got a high V2 max, it's very

[34:07] hard to get sick. It's very hard to die.

[34:10] Um, so it's it's a good it's it's good

[34:12] to be aware of your V2 max and and I

[34:14] think it's it's a great, you know, if

[34:15] you're looking for maybe metrics to to

[34:18] track. Obviously, heart rate

[34:19] variability, you want to it's

[34:20] modifiable. You want it to improve. It

[34:22] moves slowly as you engage behaviors

[34:25] that build a more robust autonomic

[34:27] nervous system. Um, V2 max is a path to

[34:30] improving heart rate variability. Um,

[34:32] but yeah, I V2 max is is great. Yeah.

[34:36] And and as a slight aside for you know

[34:39] you're an athletic individual right

[34:41] you've you've always been sporty

[34:43] >> you like what well from my understanding

[34:45] is you enjoy working out you enjoy

[34:46] sports

[34:47] >> yes

[34:48] >> there will be people listening to this

[34:49] show who probably don't identify in that

[34:51] way for sure

[34:52] >> right so for them they want to be

[34:55] learning things that they can then do

[34:57] they go oh wow right okay I get it I get

[34:59] a 45minute walk is really important for

[35:01] me to find

[35:02] >> time for each day right

[35:04] >> is V2 max in your view still important

[35:07] for someone like that? Yes, it's I think

[35:09] for all humans um you know if you want

[35:12] to pay down the burden of chronic

[35:16] disease um certainly cardiovascular

[35:19] disease you want to be paying attention

[35:21] to your you don't even need to pay

[35:23] attention to your V2 max but you want to

[35:24] engage behaviors that allow you to

[35:27] improve your heart health right and

[35:29] getting out of breath a couple times a

[35:30] week is a path to that so in addition to

[35:33] you know the 45minut walk if you can

[35:35] just for some folks it's just as hard as

[35:38] you can walk for 15 seconds, right? Or

[35:42] get on a bike, bike as hard as you can

[35:45] for 30 seconds and then take a

[35:47] two-minute break and then try it again.

[35:49] >> And you just want to repeat that, you

[35:51] know, and that's called just interval

[35:53] training, highintensity interval

[35:54] training. And we know that that um can

[35:57] you can improve your your your V2 max by

[36:00] engaging in these kind of higher

[36:02] intensity trainings. The one of the

[36:05] sections I really like in your book is

[36:06] about intelligent training

[36:09] >> and it made me think of something that

[36:11] I've changed quite significantly in the

[36:13] last year. So you know it's and really

[36:15] you highlight the importance of variety.

[36:20] >> Yeah.

[36:20] >> In your movement, right? You you need a

[36:23] selection of different things. You need

[36:24] mobility, you need low intensity, you

[36:26] need high intensity.

[36:27] >> Strength training.

[36:28] >> Strength, right? Which is really

[36:29] interesting. And so I would say I've

[36:31] kept myself in pretty good shape for

[36:34] many years, right?

[36:36] But I would say over the last few years

[36:38] for a variety of reasons, I have

[36:42] prioritized

[36:44] low intensity stuff.

[36:45] >> I've done a ton of low inensity work,

[36:48] lots of nasal breathing.

[36:50] >> Uming yeah, sometimes I would get I

[36:53] wouldn't say obsessed, but I would get

[36:54] my heart rate monitor on and you know,

[36:56] I'd got my zone 2 measured at the labs

[36:58] and kept it there. Right. I've done all

[36:59] that and it's great.

[37:02] And I used to be a very competitive

[37:04] squash player in my teenage years,

[37:07] right? But I think in my mid20s when I

[37:09] had some backage, I haven't really

[37:10] played since then. [clears throat]

[37:12] >> I took up paddle, which is the fastest

[37:14] growing sport in the world.

[37:16] >> About a year ago,

[37:19] >> oh my god, like within weeks, my resting

[37:22] heart rate was starting to drop. And I

[37:24] thought, wait a minute, I'm already fit

[37:26] and well, but I realized that the sort

[37:29] of movement paddle was giving me

[37:32] >> bit more of intensity, bit more sprint

[37:34] here, you know, sudden movements,

[37:36] >> short bursts, change of direction,

[37:37] >> which I love.

[37:38] >> Yeah.

[37:39] >> I was like, "Oh, wow. I've been missing

[37:43] >> this input to my physiology." Now,

[37:45] that's to be clear, I play paddle cuz I

[37:48] love it and it's fun, right? So, I

[37:50] wasn't playing it for a health reason. I

[37:52] was playing it because a I took it all

[37:54] myself

[37:54] >> and that is ideal.

[37:55] >> Yeah. So, and we've literally played

[37:57] five times a week in August. I mean,

[37:58] it's just been phenomenal.

[38:00] >> I love it.

[38:01] >> And so, that's the dream for all of us,

[38:03] right? We did something that we love.

[38:04] >> Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it has the second

[38:06] order.

[38:06] >> But the second order side effect has

[38:08] been quite remarkable. My resting heart

[38:09] rate, the lowest I've ever seen it.

[38:11] >> And so, somebody say, "Oh, paddle

[38:13] doesn't get you fit." I'm like, "Well,

[38:14] hey, it kind of again, it's like it

[38:15] starts with food." It depends who you

[38:17] are. It depends what your current

[38:19] tapestry is. I was missing that. So

[38:21] adding it in, I got a really phenomenal

[38:24] and very quick response.

[38:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I

[38:27] think that

[38:28] >> I think the takeaway for folks who are

[38:30] listening is that you don't need to do

[38:31] you know I talk about five domains of

[38:33] intelligent training. You don't need to

[38:34] do well one of them is is recovery is a

[38:36] big piece of that and you know that

[38:38] needs to be baked into our daily lives I

[38:40] think very intentionally. Um mobility is

[38:42] another one that I think is really

[38:43] important. Um, but just pick one and

[38:46] just start there. Yeah.

[38:48] >> You know, like you don't have to And

[38:49] guys, you wrote a whole book about

[38:51] behavior change, you know, like you

[38:52] don't have to to start with a gazillion

[38:54] things at once. Just think about your

[38:57] values, you know, and and when I think

[38:58] about behavior change, and this is how I

[39:00] think about it myself. I'm constantly

[39:02] auditing my making sure that my

[39:04] behaviors align with what I say I value,

[39:06] right? Like there's nothing worse than

[39:07] like being a phony, right? Like and and

[39:10] like you know to yourself, right? You

[39:12] want to build integrity within yourself.

[39:14] That's the most important thing. That's

[39:16] the only scoreard that matters,

[39:18] >> right?

[39:19] >> A not the truth.

[39:20] >> So you think about what it is that you

[39:22] value. And I and I think about this I

[39:24] think of a beautiful exercise. I call it

[39:25] the principle of non-neutrality. And

[39:27] we'll get back to sleepwake timing, but

[39:28] the principle of non-neutrality. So you

[39:30] basically think about your life in in in

[39:33] a in the way that there's no neutral

[39:35] actions.

[39:37] every action that you deploy across the

[39:39] day is either going to support who you

[39:41] want to be in the world or not.

[39:45] And if you if you just and that sounds

[39:47] harsh maybe for daily living, but if you

[39:49] just do that for 72 hours, you make a

[39:53] list of, you know, every time you think

[39:55] about your a behavior that you're going

[39:56] to engage in, does this support who I

[39:58] want to be or does this sabotage who I

[40:00] want to be?

[40:02] And then you start to realize you you

[40:05] get an audit of like what is actually

[40:07] supporting who you want to be

[40:09] >> and then you start to back into actually

[40:11] who do you want to be you know you're

[40:13] like ah does you know sometimes you know

[40:16] just how you treat the person at the CVS

[40:18] counter at the pharmacy like you know

[40:19] like did that align with who I want to

[40:21] be you know just like if you think about

[40:23] it super tactically and like on a really

[40:25] micro level you can start to paint a

[40:29] picture of the person you actually are.

[40:32] >> Yeah. Oh my god, I I just love that so

[40:36] much. And you said maybe it's a bit

[40:38] harsh. I don't think it's harsh at all.

[40:41] Like I really don't. You want to change

[40:43] your life.

[40:45] The first thing you have to do is become

[40:48] radically honest with yourself.

[40:50] >> Totally.

[40:51] >> Once you start lying to yourself and

[40:52] kidding yourself,

[40:53] >> you are literally trying to build change

[40:56] on a foundation of sand. And I know that

[40:58] cuz I've I've tried to do that in the

[40:59] past. doesn't work.

[41:01] >> I know. Same. Same.

[41:02] >> You have to be able to be honest and go

[41:04] know that. And I love that, you know,

[41:05] >> oh yeah, you're great to your

[41:07] colleagues, you're great to your boss,

[41:09] >> but are you great to the person who

[41:12] can't do anything for you in the shop,

[41:14] >> right? Cuz that really does show you who

[41:16] you are. And again, it's again, we can't

[41:18] fall into the trap of beating ourselves

[41:19] up,

[41:20] >> right? It's not about, for me at least,

[41:21] it's not about

[41:22] >> and that's why I think I caveat with the

[41:24] harshness.

[41:25] >> It's like, but you can be kind to

[41:26] yourself. Go, wow.

[41:28] >> Yeah. You know what? What? Why wasn't I

[41:31] nice to the I think you said the lady at

[41:32] CVS,

[41:33] >> you know, did I have a did I have an

[41:35] ego? Did I think I was I was better than

[41:38] her? Um did I feel entitled to something

[41:41] that whatever it might be?

[41:42] >> Yeah.

[41:43] >> It's that self inquiry that gives you

[41:45] the gold that allows you to properly

[41:48] change your life for good, doesn't it?

[41:50] >> Yeah. And I think that's the most

[41:51] radical form of self-love. Yeah. is when

[41:54] in when you are kind of living in

[41:56] alignment with who you say you want to

[41:58] be.

[41:59] >> Yeah. Well, I want to get back to that

[42:01] word alignment. I'm I'm going to I'm

[42:03] going to try and discipline myself to

[42:05] get us back to close off the loop with

[42:08] >> Yeah. Sleepweight consistency.

[42:09] >> Yeah. And it's it's so the four

[42:11] behaviors that will help us with our

[42:13] sleepwake consistency which will then

[42:15] also help us regulate our autonomic

[42:17] nervous system. Okay. So, where where

[42:19] were we? So basically I was saying um

[42:21] how sleepwake consistency which is quite

[42:24] literally the time you go to bed and

[42:25] when you wake up you want to make that

[42:26] as stable as possible.

[42:28] >> Yeah.

[42:28] >> Okay. This um helps improve your

[42:31] menstrual cycle regularity. It helps

[42:33] improve you know from the very from the

[42:35] tad pagotes in the world of the world

[42:37] who won five tour to France.

[42:39] Physiological stability is one of the

[42:41] greatest predictors of his performance

[42:43] levels. It's also predicts cycle

[42:45] regularity. It also predicts um symptoms

[42:49] associated symptom severity and

[42:50] frequency during pen pmenopause and

[42:52] menopause and menstrual cycle.

[42:55] >> Just to make sure we've all landed that.

[42:56] So you're basically saying sleepwake

[42:59] consistency. So going to bed

[43:01] >> brings about physiological stability

[43:03] across heart rate variability, resting

[43:06] heart rate, sleep. But sleep weight

[43:09] consistency in and of itself you're

[43:10] saying is helping

[43:11] >> that behavior is

[43:12] >> performance and for women

[43:14] >> health

[43:15] >> in pmenopause or or through menopause it

[43:18] helps reduce symptoms.

[43:20] >> Yes.

[43:20] >> Right. So

[43:22] >> and again this gets to real root cause

[43:24] approach.

[43:25] >> Yeah. This isn't causal, right? But

[43:28] >> um these are correlations.

[43:29] >> No. And you're not of course saying that

[43:31] >> women shouldn't be taking hormones.

[43:33] There's something here. Yeah. Yeah.

[43:34] You're just saying as well as anything

[43:36] else you might be considering,

[43:38] >> right?

[43:39] >> Don't forget about sleepwake

[43:41] consistency.

[43:42] >> What it shows is that if it there's an

[43:45] amplification of symptom severity and

[43:48] frequency in the absence of this

[43:50] stability that I'm talking about this

[43:52] consistency

[43:52] >> in stability, right?

[43:55] >> How much variability can you get away

[43:57] talking within half an hour each night?

[43:59] >> Yeah, roughly. You know, I think the

[44:01] older you get, the less the more

[44:02] sensitive our circadian rhythms are, the

[44:05] less robust they are. And there's lots

[44:07] of variation between people like within

[44:10] people like it's um you know, so it's

[44:12] it's certainly not one size fit all. You

[44:14] might have a more robust circadian

[44:16] system. I might be more sensitive. I

[44:17] have to have that window be narrower.

[44:19] And people when they start to self

[44:21] audit, they'll recognize who they are.

[44:23] And then you got to just create

[44:24] boundaries to protect that, right?

[44:26] knowing that it impacts your health, how

[44:28] you show up the next day, whether or not

[44:30] you can live your values with joy and

[44:31] energy, right? Like these all kind of

[44:33] tie together, right? So, yeah, so

[44:35] sleepwake consistency um drives quality,

[44:39] which is really, you know, the time

[44:42] frame during sleep where you're

[44:43] restoring and regenerating. Um and that

[44:46] is correlated that the extent to which

[44:48] you get sleep quality is correlated with

[44:50] u your autonomic nervous system health.

[44:52] >> Okay?

[44:52] >> So, sleep quality really matters. Sleep

[44:54] consistency is the behavior that drives

[44:55] it. All the stuff, the four core

[44:57] behaviors we talked about can help get

[45:00] you to fall asleep and stay asleep um at

[45:02] a more consistent, you know, more

[45:04] consistently.

[45:05] >> So, in essence,

[45:06] >> yeah,

[45:09] >> trying to lock in those four free

[45:11] behaviors

[45:13] has

[45:15] probably zero downside and a hell of a

[45:17] lot of upside, right?

[45:19] >> I think it's a great if people are

[45:20] starting from scratch, that is a great

[45:22] place to start.

[45:23] >> Yeah. you know, it's evidencebased.

[45:24] It's, you know, it's And what we what

[45:26] was really cool in the study is we were

[45:28] able um people continued with these

[45:30] behaviors after the study was over.

[45:32] >> Yeah. Well, then they're not they're not

[45:34] difficult once you block them in.

[45:36] >> Yeah. And you start feeling good. You

[45:37] start to see the benefit.

[45:39] >> Yeah. One of the things I love about

[45:40] timerestricted eating and always have

[45:41] done since Sachin Panda's early papers

[45:44] in I think I think 2014 his first

[45:46] >> mouse study came out from recollection

[45:49] >> is

[45:51] although he and other researchers are

[45:53] not saying eat whatever you want

[45:56] actually in some ways where people find

[45:58] it sometimes hard to make the right

[46:00] choices some people say I can't afford

[46:02] healthy nutritious foods and I totally

[46:05] recognize that is the case for some

[46:06] people right

[46:08] >> time restricts eating is available to

[46:11] everyone.

[46:12] >> Yeah.

[46:12] >> Right.

[46:13] >> Thank you for changing what you eat.

[46:14] You're just changing when you eat.

[46:16] >> Definitely. Definitely. And it can get

[46:18] you, you know, is it going to totally

[46:20] transform your metabolic health?

[46:22] >> Probably not. But it can get you some

[46:24] other way there. Yeah. you know, like

[46:25] there there's no question that I I think

[46:28] in the in the the data, I think the

[46:30] literature support there's some good

[46:32] RCTs that support randomized control

[46:34] trials um where we see eating earlier in

[46:38] the day.

[46:38] >> Yeah.

[46:39] >> We're just more primed metabolically to

[46:41] digest the food. We're more active,

[46:43] right? We're using those nutrients,

[46:45] right, in our daily

[46:46] >> activities. Um and so, and as the day

[46:49] goes on, we also know that we become

[46:52] less we become more insulin resistant.

[46:54] Yeah,

[46:54] >> right. We're just not as capable of

[46:57] using those nutrients in the way that is

[46:59] helpful for our body, our nutrient

[47:01] sensing, all of that kind of

[47:02] >> changes across the day,

[47:04] >> which goes back to one of your central

[47:06] ideas in the book that the body runs on

[47:08] timing.

[47:08] >> It does, not on willpower, folks, on

[47:10] timing.

[47:11] >> Yeah. So, there's a time to

[47:13] >> eat more food. There's a time, you know,

[47:16] and again, I I always think about these

[47:18] traditional healing modalities like

[47:21] iovedic medicine or traditional Chinese

[47:23] medicine. And they've always understood

[47:27] concepts like personalized medicine,

[47:28] which is the rage now.

[47:30] >> They got it 2 3,000 years ago. They were

[47:32] all different. There were, you know, in

[47:33] IV medicine, they they'll put you into

[47:36] they've got these three categories. This

[47:38] is very crude, very broadly. You know,

[47:40] you know, there's a lot more

[47:41] specificity, but oh, if you're this type

[47:44] of person, you need to eat more of these

[47:46] sorts of foods. If you're this type of

[47:48] person,

[47:48] >> you need to eat more of these types of

[47:50] foods. Of course, the scientific

[47:52] process, as great as it is, for much of

[47:54] the 20th century, it kind of ignored

[47:56] that and tried to put everyone in the

[47:57] same box.

[47:59] >> And now we're moving back to,

[48:00] >> oh, we're all respond slightly

[48:02] differently. But there but there are

[48:03] these core

[48:04] >> principles,

[48:05] >> core principles, and not eating for 16

[48:08] hours of [laughter] every 24 hours is a

[48:09] good thing for most humans.

[48:11] >> Exactly. And there's so much debate

[48:13] online about like I'm like, guys, we're

[48:15] losing the plot here. Like you raised

[48:17] such a good point that the day goes on,

[48:21] we just our willpower decreases, right?

[48:24] We've made 2,000 decisions over the

[48:26] course of the day and now we're going to

[48:27] do we have to decide, okay, am I going

[48:29] to have the ice cream before bed or not?

[48:30] Well, if you have that 12-hour block

[48:33] >> and that your last calories at 7, you

[48:35] take that decision off the table. And if

[48:37] you're distributing your macronutrients

[48:39] throughout the day, you're getting

[48:39] enough calories, you're not going to

[48:41] need or you're not going to be hungry.

[48:43] >> Yeah. you know, [clears throat] so it's

[48:44] just it's kind of like, all right, like

[48:47] I can do this, you know, I can eat over

[48:49] a 12-h hour, you know, period and then I

[48:51] can let my body rest, regenerate, heal

[48:54] [snorts] over the course of the 12

[48:55] hours. And I will say the data is wildly

[48:59] supportive of this 12 on, 12 off.

[49:00] >> Yeah. I mean, you've got, just to be

[49:02] clear, I mean, I've heard you talk about

[49:04] this, but you have access to all the

[49:06] Whoop data, right? So you I'm pretty

[49:09] sure that study, was it 38,000 people?

[49:11] >> Yeah, 39,000 people.

[49:12] >> Yeah. So these aren't small.

[49:13] >> No. And TR had independent effects on

[49:16] cardiorespiratory fitness. So in and

[49:18] parasympthetic activity. So last night's

[49:19] a really good example. Um I started my

[49:22] fast pretty early yesterday because I

[49:24] was traveling. I was trying to basically

[49:26] I need to maximize my sleep and recovery

[49:28] tonight. I wake up with a 47 resting

[49:30] heart rate.

[49:32] >> Wow.

[49:33] >> In minus 51. So it's not it's not like

[49:34] it's huge, but when you extend your

[49:37] fast, not a lot, but when you are really

[49:40] trying to recover from travel, when

[49:42] you're trying to kind of get yourself in

[49:44] a place where you are, you know,

[49:46] allowing that healing to be maximized

[49:48] over the course of the night, not

[49:51] forcing your body to have to digest food

[49:53] is really good strategy.

[49:54] >> Yeah, I I think I mentioned this a few

[49:56] months ago, but that is one thing I've

[49:58] changed. Like I, you know, if I ever had

[50:00] an evening event, which I I rarely do

[50:02] these days because I try and align my

[50:05] work around my desired schedule.

[50:06] >> You have earlier

[50:09] this this November, I'm doing uh seven

[50:12] live shows in in various places around

[50:14] the world.

[50:14] >> That's amazing.

[50:15] >> But five of them are on a Sunday

[50:18] >> and you know what? I'm doing them at 4

[50:20] p.m.

[50:20] >> That's right.

[50:21] >> I'm like I'm I'm not going to if I can

[50:23] choose if it's a if it I know some

[50:24] people work on a Sunday.

[50:26] >> People come to see you. I don't want to

[50:28] go home bed at midnight. I don't think

[50:30] my audience do. So, it's going to be

[50:31] like 4 till 7 so we can all get home

[50:33] [laughter] and get our nights.

[50:34] >> Um, which which is which is super

[50:36] interesting. But

[50:37] >> yeah, I love it

[50:38] >> for for concepts of people,

[50:40] [clears throat]

[50:41] >> you flew from Boston to the UK

[50:44] >> yesterday, right? So, that's a 5h hour

[50:46] >> time difference. You've also got a 2hour

[50:48] train up this morning to come and see

[50:50] me.

[50:51] >> Y

[50:51] >> Okay.

[50:52] >> And

[50:54] you know, I know you slept well last

[50:55] night. your data is all really good this

[50:57] morning. It's pretty remarkable to see

[50:59] how cognitively sharp you are

[51:01] >> on the back of all that. And it's really

[51:03] interesting to hear that

[51:04] >> you I'm sure you were hungry and could

[51:06] have quite liked a little something last

[51:09] night, right? But you've you've learned

[51:10] enough about your body to know

[51:13] >> actually it's better for me not to eat

[51:15] at the moment. I'm going to be much

[51:17] better tomorrow and more resilient and

[51:20] I'll recover more. That's what we were

[51:22] talking about before. That's knowing

[51:23] yourself, isn't it?

[51:24] >> Yeah. I think I think so. And I and I do

[51:27] think there's also this idea, we were

[51:29] talking about it earlier, like just that

[51:31] belief in that like I like imagine my

[51:33] body recovering. I imagine my body and

[51:37] my mind, you know, feeling safe and, you

[51:39] know, like I I kind of put myself in

[51:42] that I I guess I I create the kind of

[51:46] mindset and conditions where I'm like

[51:48] able to drop into a really restorative

[51:50] sleep in a hotel I've never been in

[51:52] after a day of travel. like I kind of

[51:54] have got to a point where I can like

[51:56] kind of talk myself into that future in

[51:58] a in a way.

[51:58] >> That that's really beautiful because

[52:00] that there is this sort of tension

[52:02] sometimes between

[52:05] you know routine

[52:08] and resilience, right? You know that

[52:11] that

[52:12] >> you know when you're at home you can

[52:14] lock in these four behaviors probably

[52:16] because you've set your life around it,

[52:17] right?

[52:18] >> But can we adapt

[52:20] >> and be resilient when we're not in our

[52:22] environment?

[52:24] which I think is important as well

[52:26] because

[52:32] you know you might be able to do 70% 80%

[52:34] 90% of the time but you're going to you

[52:37] know depending on who you are. There may

[52:38] be times when you're working a late

[52:40] shift at work or you have an evening

[52:44] concert you want to go to and you come

[52:46] back late, but you know what? You had

[52:48] such a blast at the concert. It was

[52:50] worth

[52:51] >> the impact. Like me, I literally I'm I'm

[52:53] on a

[52:54] >> I'm on a high at the moment because my

[52:57] alltime favorite bandon joy from a kid

[52:59] and I've seen them.

[53:01] >> I have talked to Bon Joy before his

[53:03] team.

[53:03] >> Yeah, there you go. I've seen him with a

[53:06] band before.

[53:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. He wears a whoop. Yeah.

[53:07] >> Yeah. He came on the podcast last year

[53:08] which was a certain moment for me. I

[53:11] don't think I've ever been that nervous

[53:12] with anyone because he was like my

[53:14] boyhood idol.

[53:14] >> Oh my gosh. And he is just a legend.

[53:17] >> But I went to Dublin on Sunday to watch

[53:19] him at Croat Park which was phenomenal.

[53:21] 80,000 people sell out.

[53:24] >> It was just utterly phenomenal. And I'm

[53:28] still buzzing today 4 days later from

[53:30] that. Yeah. You know what? I got to bed

[53:32] really late. I think I went to bed at

[53:33] half past midnight by the time I walked

[53:34] home to the hotel.

[53:36] >> Yeah. But I think that's okay as well.

[53:39] >> It is. It is. You know what I mean? And

[53:40] I and I say this in the book, you know,

[53:41] I for the way I live, I'm probably 9010.

[53:44] You know, I 90% of the time, you know, I

[53:46] I have a relatively boring life in the

[53:49] sense that the people I hang out hang

[53:50] out with kind of have the same view on

[53:52] life as I do. Um, but you know, 10% of

[53:54] the time I I go off the rails, right?

[53:56] Like and um you know, and sometimes

[53:59] sometimes it's more like 20%, right? But

[54:01] I think if we can 80% of the time create

[54:04] these routines, we can we create some

[54:07] buffer in the system to be able to

[54:09] handle these moments where you know you

[54:12] don't want to get sick on I that the

[54:14] getting sick on vacation is I think a

[54:16] great

[54:18] >> um indicator that you don't have this

[54:21] 8020 balance

[54:23] >> in your day-to-day.

[54:25] >> It's called the letdown effect and it's

[54:27] a a very kind of common phenomenon. You

[54:29] know, basically when you are, you know,

[54:32] oftentimes like life, especially you're

[54:33] kind of getting ready for a vacation,

[54:35] like you're trying to meet deadlines.

[54:36] You're trying to get everything buttoned

[54:37] up and you know, so your your body's

[54:39] marshalling these defenses, right? And

[54:41] it's infinite wisdom to you know, you

[54:43] know, kind of increase your imu, you

[54:45] know, get your immune system increased

[54:46] and, you know, cortisol and epinephrine.

[54:48] You've got all this like, you know,

[54:49] these energy hormones like you know,

[54:51] kind of mobilizing and then you go on

[54:54] vacation and invariably your system lets

[54:56] down and you get sick.

[54:59] Right? That is to me a indicator that

[55:03] you don't have the right sense of

[55:04] balance and proportion across your your

[55:07] kind of day, week, month.

[55:09] >> So that's a good just kind of like gut

[55:12] check. You know, do I get sick on

[55:13] vacation when I let down after a big

[55:16] project? Do I get sick? And if the

[55:18] answer is yes, you probably need to

[55:20] rethink your dayto-day. That doesn't

[55:23] mean you need to cut down your ambition.

[55:25] doesn't mean you need to cut down your

[55:26] obsession for like the thing that you're

[55:29] doing, but they're they're you want to

[55:31] also be able to not have to deal with

[55:34] these setbacks, right? And sometimes

[55:36] those sickness can can actually be a

[55:38] disease, right? If this is a chronic

[55:39] kind of scenario where you are

[55:41] constantly in this state of demand

[55:43] mismatch, right? you've got your energy

[55:46] output

[55:47] >> and um and the demands on your time.

[55:50] When you are basically in a scenario

[55:51] where your demands um exceed your

[55:55] capacity, right, you end up getting

[55:58] sick.

[55:59] >> Yeah.

[56:02] You mentioned in the book that you have

[56:06] pretty much not been sick for eight

[56:07] years now.

[56:08] >> Yeah.

[56:10] >> Touch word. Yeah.

[56:10] >> Going strong. Um,

[56:13] of course there's multiple factors that

[56:17] are at play.

[56:18] >> Yes.

[56:18] >> In terms of whether someone gets sick or

[56:20] not, but in your view,

[56:23] >> why do you think you have become so

[56:26] resilient

[56:27] >> to I guess illness?

[56:30] >> Yeah. I mean, I I think sleepwake

[56:31] consistency I kind of go back to that.

[56:34] That's the one big change. My the last

[56:36] time I was sick was February 2017.

[56:39] >> I remember I Yeah. I traveled to to Penn

[56:42] State with one of my colleagues, Michael

[56:43] Lombardi. Um, and we were working with

[56:46] the ice hockey team and um yeah, and I I

[56:48] was like I said to Michael, I'm like,

[56:50] "Oh man, I'm getting sick." And and sure

[56:52] enough, yeah, I ended up with a head

[56:53] cold. Um, and then that summer, Andrew

[56:55] Phillips came out with a a paper that

[56:58] basically was looking at what predicts

[57:01] GPA in Harvard students. And the

[57:05] greatest predictor of um of of GPA was

[57:09] sleepweight consistency. and he calls it

[57:10] sleepwake regularity.

[57:12] >> And and for people in the UK who don't

[57:13] know, that's a GPA is your

[57:15] >> your grade point average. Sorry. So your

[57:17] grades,

[57:18] >> your grades basically,

[57:19] >> sleep regularity was the thing that

[57:21] predicted GPA.

[57:22] >> That's incredible.

[57:23] >> I know. So I started I was at the time I

[57:25] was working with tons of athletes. So I

[57:26] had about 230 athletes at the time that

[57:28] I was working with really consistently.

[57:30] So I started manually tracking

[57:32] sleepweight consistency. And sure

[57:34] enough, over the course of six months,

[57:36] um the athletes who got injured less,

[57:38] sick less, and kind of performed, you

[57:41] know, sub by the subjective kind of um

[57:45] uh appraisal of their coaches performed

[57:47] better were the ones who had more stable

[57:48] sleepweight weight consistency. So I was

[57:51] like, damn, there's something here. Then

[57:52] we started tracking it and then we

[57:54] started it started bubbling up in every

[57:56] single research. We started including in

[57:57] a piece of research that we did, we

[57:59] started including um sleepweight

[58:00] consistency as one of the variables.

[58:02] some sometimes an outcome measure and

[58:04] and sure enough it was predictive of

[58:07] everything and then separately Daniel

[58:10] Winred and his colleagues um a

[58:12] researcher I think is Adam Manashe um

[58:14] he's brilliant uh he's so young I looked

[58:17] him up like online and I thought he was

[58:18] going to be like 70 years old he's like

[58:19] 25 I'm like good god but he is just a

[58:22] machine but basically what he and his

[58:24] colleagues published in January of 2024

[58:26] is they saw that sleepwake regularity or

[58:28] consistency was a greater predictor of

[58:30] all cause mortality than sleep duration.

[58:33] >> Wow.

[58:33] >> And they also then they found too and

[58:35] this is with the UK bio bank. I think it

[58:37] was like you know you know 79,000 folks

[58:41] kind of in this uh sample. And then the

[58:43] other one that they just published um

[58:45] pretty recently looked at disease and

[58:48] again sleep reg sleepwake regularity was

[58:51] a greater predictor of disease than

[58:53] sleep duration. So sleep duration

[58:54] matters, but this consistency is just so

[58:58] stabilizing.

[58:58] >> And and from what you've seen,

[59:01] presumably it doesn't matter too much

[59:02] what it is

[59:04] >> as long as it's consistent. So I know I

[59:08] am the best version of me when I'm

[59:11] asleep by 9 and I'm up by 5.

[59:13] >> Yeah.

[59:13] >> Right. I just know that.

[59:14] >> Boom. Yeah. You got it.

[59:16] >> I'm just on fire all the time. Energy,

[59:19] inspiration, whatever it is, I'm the

[59:20] person I want to be. Whereas my wife

[59:23] would probably be

[59:25] I guess 11 till 7 I guess.

[59:28] >> Yep.

[59:28] >> Probably push push that seven a bit

[59:31] >> later. But I So just help us understand

[59:34] how that changes between individuals.

[59:36] >> Yeah. So so basically we know generally

[59:38] you know if we're to put a bunch of

[59:40] humans who identify as morning larks and

[59:43] night owls on a mountain um with no

[59:46] electricity um they would all fall

[59:48] asleep, you know, within 48 hours of

[59:50] being in that environment. They'd all

[59:51] fall asleep about 3.3 hours after the

[59:54] sun sets within 30 minutes of each other

[59:56] >> irrespective of invertic chronotype.

[1:00:00] >> Yeah. So it's not that there aren't

[1:00:02] chronotypes but I don't know I don't

[1:00:03] think there is egregiously different

[1:00:06] than I think a lot of that is just

[1:00:07] modern life.

[1:00:08] >> Yeah. It's environmental in terms of

[1:00:10] >> I think it is.

[1:00:10] >> I think a lot of it is.

[1:00:11] >> Yeah. And you know there's lots of

[1:00:13] debate in the kind of sleep and

[1:00:14] circadian sciences and and I obviously I

[1:00:16] very much respect that but I but I think

[1:00:18] there is I I think the environment plays

[1:00:20] an enormous enormous role and not not

[1:00:22] just when you're an adult but the

[1:00:24] environment that you have as a child

[1:00:25] right do you have a lot of noise in

[1:00:28] urban environment do you have you know

[1:00:29] four siblings in the same room like you

[1:00:30] know I mean gosh

[1:00:32] >> you know all of that has an impact I

[1:00:33] think on how you end up being a the how

[1:00:36] you sleep as an adult right um so

[1:00:39] >> in the habits that you you create I

[1:00:41] think the profession that you end up

[1:00:42] going into, you know, like back in the

[1:00:44] Savannah, like you didn't have you

[1:00:46] couldn't be the, you know, if you're a

[1:00:47] musician artist, like you're doing it

[1:00:48] during the daylight, right? Regardless,

[1:00:50] right? We have the opportunity now to to

[1:00:52] be awake at all hours, right? and

[1:00:54] because that's when people are going to

[1:00:55] concerts. And so I say all that just so

[1:00:58] people for folks who do want to try to

[1:01:00] shift earlier for whatever reason um you

[1:01:03] know to just kind of get create a little

[1:01:05] distance from that midnight hour um you

[1:01:08] know to kind of take advantage of kind

[1:01:10] of that sweet spot before midnight

[1:01:12] because because we know there's other

[1:01:14] data that suggest that show um basically

[1:01:16] when you go to bed after midnight um you

[1:01:19] have a higher fasting glucose the next

[1:01:22] next day. Okay, independent of

[1:01:24] everything else that's going on. So, um

[1:01:25] this is a very welldesigned,

[1:01:27] well-controlled study. So, you know,

[1:01:29] there is something there is some magic

[1:01:31] before midnight, right? That we want to

[1:01:32] try to leverage. Um I think when we look

[1:01:34] at circulating melatonin, same sort of

[1:01:36] thing. Um I I think the bottom line is

[1:01:39] you don't want to bypass your natural

[1:01:41] pressure for sleep, whatever that is.

[1:01:44] For you, it's nine. Your wife it's 11.

[1:01:47] You know, for me, it's usually like 10.

[1:01:49] you know, like I I definitely want to

[1:01:50] prepare and and be ready to sleep at

[1:01:53] 10:00. Um, and I kind of same thing. I

[1:01:55] wake her up around 6. Um, so I I think

[1:01:58] like it's worth the experiment in your

[1:02:02] own life to figure out what is my

[1:02:03] natural pressure for sleep. And the way

[1:02:05] to begin that experiment is to wake up

[1:02:07] at the same time every single day. Um,

[1:02:10] get the morning natural light, get as

[1:02:12] much daylight as you can, as you can

[1:02:13] manage. Have a dark night. Like, so

[1:02:16] create contrast between your day and

[1:02:17] night. And sure enough, as long as you

[1:02:19] don't have caffeine after 2 or kind of

[1:02:20] falling asleep on the couch at 7:00

[1:02:22] p.m., um you should be in a scenario

[1:02:24] where you start to feel when you

[1:02:25] naturally are sleepy. Right. And and I

[1:02:28] think that is one of the most important

[1:02:29] human experiment experiments someone can

[1:02:31] run right now

[1:02:32] >> in modern society.

[1:02:34] >> Yeah. Because you go to people on the

[1:02:36] street, they don't even know when they

[1:02:37] would naturally feel sleepy because

[1:02:39] they're constantly pushing past that

[1:02:40] natural pressure for sleep with an

[1:02:42] extra, you know, show of on Netflix or,

[1:02:45] you know, that that Slack message that

[1:02:47] they got from a colleague or that email

[1:02:48] that they're sending out, you know,

[1:02:49] whatever it might be, right?

[1:02:51] >> It's not just the light. I mean, of

[1:02:52] course, the the bright light exposure

[1:02:54] that we might be looking at in the

[1:02:56] evenings,

[1:02:57] >> yes, that has an impact, but it's also

[1:02:58] the the

[1:03:00] >> the constant stimulation

[1:03:02] >> for sure. So, we're not allowing that

[1:03:04] natural lull to fall into it. We're

[1:03:07] still trying to answer emails or

[1:03:08] whatever it might be. Of course, you

[1:03:09] can't sleep,

[1:03:10] >> right? Right. Like your heart rate is

[1:03:11] going to be activated, right? You're

[1:03:13] telling your body that it is time to be

[1:03:15] awake and time to perform. As a result,

[1:03:17] you end up those chemicals end up

[1:03:20] circulating in your body, right?

[1:03:21] >> The biggest barrier to your health right

[1:03:24] now is probably not knowledge. It's

[1:03:26] action. You already know what's good for

[1:03:29] you. eating well, moving more, and

[1:03:32] managing stress. But knowing information

[1:03:34] is not the same as applying it day after

[1:03:37] day, especially if you're doing it by

[1:03:40] yourself. My name is Dr. Rangen Chhatty

[1:03:43] and I have more than two decades

[1:03:44] experience helping patients as a

[1:03:46] clinician. And now I'd love to help you

[1:03:49] take control of your health. When I

[1:03:52] surveyed more than 1,400 people after my

[1:03:55] recent 21-day energy reset, eight and 10

[1:03:59] said that their energy had improved in

[1:04:02] just 3 weeks. That's the kind of change

[1:04:04] I know more people can experience when

[1:04:07] they're surrounded by likeminded people.

[1:04:11] This is why I created the membership

[1:04:13] built to thrive community. Each month,

[1:04:16] we focus on one area of health broken

[1:04:19] down into daily habits with live Q&As's,

[1:04:22] a private community of people on the

[1:04:24] same journey, and many more features

[1:04:27] that make this journey sustainable. If

[1:04:30] you think this is something that you

[1:04:31] would like to be a part of, just scan

[1:04:34] the QR code on screen or tap the first

[1:04:37] link in the description box below to

[1:04:39] join us. The thing I was I was

[1:04:41] mentioning before the the the one of the

[1:04:42] big things I've changed over the last

[1:04:44] couple of years is if I which I don't

[1:04:46] very often anymore, but if I do have an

[1:04:48] evening event or a show that I'm doing

[1:04:50] or a live talk,

[1:04:52] I would I used to eat when I got back to

[1:04:55] the hotel room and it' still be, you

[1:04:57] know, healthy foods.

[1:04:59] >> Yeah.

[1:05:00] >> But I I felt like I had a hangover the

[1:05:02] next morning

[1:05:03] >> even though I hadn't been drinking any

[1:05:05] alcohol. And I I've I've run the

[1:05:07] experiment enough on myself to know,

[1:05:10] hey, I am generally better off going to

[1:05:13] bed a little bit hungry.

[1:05:14] >> Yeah.

[1:05:15] >> In that scenario,

[1:05:16] >> Yeah.

[1:05:17] >> than eating something.

[1:05:18] >> Plenty of glycogen in my muscles like,

[1:05:19] you know, it's no problem. I'm going to

[1:05:21] be fine. I'm not going to sleep.

[1:05:22] >> The truth is once you're asleep, it's

[1:05:23] fine anyway. It's just in those, you

[1:05:25] know, before you fall asleep. So, so

[1:05:26] that's I I kind of think is

[1:05:29] >> really really interesting. The other

[1:05:31] thing I was I was just going to share is

[1:05:33] one of the most important behaviors I do

[1:05:36] each day which I don't even think about

[1:05:37] anymore. It's automatic.

[1:05:39] At least one hour before bed if not 90

[1:05:44] minutes. I'm not working.

[1:05:46] >> Yeah.

[1:05:46] >> I mean I know it sounds just so obvious

[1:05:49] but I have disciplined myself. That

[1:05:52] laptop is off. I am not going to work.

[1:05:54] Actually it's really too I don't do

[1:05:56] work.

[1:05:57] >> Yeah. And for me that I think has had

[1:06:00] some of the biggest impacts because yeah

[1:06:03] we can talk about caffeine and alcohol

[1:06:04] and all those things and of course there

[1:06:06] are biological consequences of having

[1:06:09] stimulants and I get all that

[1:06:12] >> and you know for many years I don't have

[1:06:13] caffeine after 12:00 I know it affects

[1:06:15] me at night but I really felt that

[1:06:19] >> you know just I'm just sending different

[1:06:22] inputs to my brain. I'm like oh the day

[1:06:24] is over. We're now on relaxation time.

[1:06:26] That has been game changing for me.

[1:06:28] >> Yeah. I mean, like I said, I mean, it it

[1:06:30] we kind of go back like when we think

[1:06:32] about

[1:06:33] >> the circadian system, right? And you've

[1:06:36] got, you know, basically the photoic

[1:06:39] inputs, that's the light, right? That's

[1:06:41] telling. So, anytime your eyes are open,

[1:06:43] right, you're sending a signal to your

[1:06:45] superismatic nucleus, which is the

[1:06:47] control center of your brain, what kind

[1:06:49] of time of day it is, you know? So, if

[1:06:51] you are basking in bright lights at 10

[1:06:53] p.m., your body is going to think that

[1:06:56] is supposed to be awake, right? So, it's

[1:06:58] going to be sending all of those kind of

[1:06:59] signals.

[1:06:59] >> Yeah. And then you think you're a night

[1:07:01] owl.

[1:07:01] >> And you think you're a night owl, which

[1:07:02] >> you might be, but you might not be as

[1:07:04] well.

[1:07:04] >> You might not be. Right. So, that but

[1:07:06] that that signal when it when your body

[1:07:09] but your body still is craving

[1:07:13] darkness at that time. It's it's

[1:07:15] expecting darkness, but now you're

[1:07:18] giving it light, right? So now what

[1:07:20] you're doing is creating some confusion

[1:07:21] in your body.

[1:07:23] >> And if you're curious about the basis of

[1:07:25] aging and de disease, it's confusion at

[1:07:28] a cellular level.

[1:07:30] >> So when you're bypassing these kind of

[1:07:33] natur the natural light dark cycle, you

[1:07:36] create endogenous confusion. So if you

[1:07:41] get sick a lot, if you are struggling

[1:07:43] with symptoms um related to your

[1:07:47] menstrual cycle, parameopause,

[1:07:48] menopause, like you just feel like you

[1:07:49] can't get start with your light diet,

[1:07:52] >> right? That's just a great place to

[1:07:54] start. Like our body craves contrast. We

[1:07:57] want a lot of activity during the day.

[1:07:59] We want a lot of light during the day.

[1:08:00] We want food during the day. At night,

[1:08:03] we don't want light. We don't want food.

[1:08:05] We don't want activity. It's that

[1:08:07] simple. And there's a paper that was

[1:08:09] just published looking exactly at this

[1:08:10] contrast, right? Individuals who have

[1:08:14] really bright nights and dark days

[1:08:17] struggle with their mental health,

[1:08:19] right? Like this is not a secret, right?

[1:08:21] It's but what's crazy is I say this

[1:08:24] online, it's like heresy. I am being

[1:08:27] heretical, right? Like people are they

[1:08:29] come down to me like I'm I'm suggest

[1:08:31] like what I am suggesting is off the

[1:08:33] rails. And for me that's a comment of

[1:08:35] actually how far off the rails modern

[1:08:37] society is

[1:08:38] >> because for 99.9%

[1:08:40] of our revolution this was the norm. If

[1:08:43] you if you look at any time scale that

[1:08:46] matters right if you look at biology on

[1:08:48] the x- axis the y ais is just technology

[1:08:52] and just electric light food access like

[1:08:54] all of that right

[1:08:56] >> the delta is biology is flat there's no

[1:08:59] change we have not adapted or evolved to

[1:09:02] any of this techn technological change

[1:09:05] so there's a gap between our the

[1:09:09] technological advancements and our

[1:09:11] biology and that delta is

[1:09:13] and how we regulate our nervous system

[1:09:15] [laughter]

[1:09:16] to bring this full circle determines

[1:09:18] kind of how we manage modern life.

[1:09:21] >> Yeah. But even if we go back to those

[1:09:23] four behaviors

[1:09:24] >> right now, you could argue that,

[1:09:28] you know, reducing stress through breath

[1:09:30] work may not have been required for for

[1:09:33] lots of cultures, let's say, 10,000

[1:09:35] years ago. I don't know that to be true,

[1:09:37] but perhaps perhaps they were naturally

[1:09:40] mostly in parasympathetic. So relaxation

[1:09:43] state punctuated by a little bit of

[1:09:45] sympathetic stress now and again.

[1:09:49] >> The other three they probably all had,

[1:09:52] right?

[1:09:53] >> They weren't eating 15 hours a day. Was

[1:09:56] probably less than 12, right?

[1:09:58] >> Whether we call it zone 2 or low

[1:10:00] inensity movement, they were 100% moving

[1:10:03] their bodies every day.

[1:10:04] >> Women 7 miles, men 10. Yeah. Kilome,

[1:10:06] sorry.

[1:10:07] >> Right. And then they were getting

[1:10:08] morning light. They're not sitting

[1:10:10] around in the cave like, you know,

[1:10:11] scrolling their phone. They like it's

[1:10:13] time to get up and actually

[1:10:15] >> crack on with gathering or hunting or

[1:10:17] whatever you might do, right? So that's

[1:10:19] the crazy thing, right? We're now having

[1:10:21] to teach people

[1:10:23] >> and yes, you've got the data to prove

[1:10:25] it.

[1:10:27] >> But fundamentally,

[1:10:29] those four presses,

[1:10:31] >> they're just basic inputs that our

[1:10:34] physiology need to run. There's no qu I

[1:10:37] mean there is not a mental health

[1:10:38] disorder where circadian misalignment is

[1:10:41] not present.

[1:10:42] >> Yeah.

[1:10:42] >> You know I I I think you like that is

[1:10:45] the place to look.

[1:10:46] >> You start there if you can. Yes. And

[1:10:48] someone's got severe depression. They

[1:10:50] will struggle to do that. But the amount

[1:10:53] of people whose mental well-being

[1:10:54] improves dramatically when they engage

[1:10:57] in these quite simple behaviors.

[1:11:00] >> Yeah. The suggestion isn't that we go

[1:11:02] back to the savannah, right? Like that's

[1:11:03] not what I'm suggesting. But I am

[1:11:05] suggesting we need a strategy. And if

[1:11:06] you think you don't need a strategy to

[1:11:08] deal with kind of the traps of modern

[1:11:10] life, you're crazy. Like modern society

[1:11:13] is set up for us to fail.

[1:11:15] >> I It's just we it's set up for us to

[1:11:17] fail. And I think all we have to do is

[1:11:20] look at the global health data to

[1:11:22] understand that we are failing.

[1:11:24] >> Yeah. and and we just have to we have to

[1:11:26] get into cahoots with one another and

[1:11:28] figure out okay how do we get back to to

[1:11:30] a schedule that is more aligned with the

[1:11:33] natural light dark cycle at a very basic

[1:11:36] level and it and I say that and it

[1:11:38] everyone I know it sounds crazy but our

[1:11:42] mental physical emotional and I would

[1:11:44] argue our spir spiritual well-being is

[1:11:46] what's at stake here

[1:11:48] >> yeah

[1:11:50] there's so much more about um in

[1:11:53] inadverted commas physical health we

[1:11:55] could talk about,

[1:11:56] >> but I want to pivot a little bit um to

[1:12:00] my favorite part of your new book.

[1:12:03] >> It's the the middle section which you

[1:12:05] call the architecture within.

[1:12:07] >> And

[1:12:09] as I said at the start, I love the way

[1:12:10] that

[1:12:13] >> you demonstrate beautifully how they

[1:12:15] each affects each other, right? So, it

[1:12:17] isn't one or the other. That they're

[1:12:18] both important and

[1:12:20] >> you know, you start where you need to

[1:12:22] start, right? Some people will go in

[1:12:24] first, some people will go for those

[1:12:25] external behaviors first.

[1:12:28] >> But I but I I was sharing to you in my

[1:12:30] kitchen before we started recording how

[1:12:31] much I love the title aligned.

[1:12:33] >> So I think the secret to life is

[1:12:36] alignment, frankly. Um and alignment can

[1:12:39] be, you know, you can be aligned with

[1:12:43] your circadian rhythm.

[1:12:45] >> You can be aligned with your values,

[1:12:48] right? you can be internally aligned

[1:12:51] where your mind, body, and soul are all

[1:12:54] going in the same direction. It's a

[1:12:55] beautiful word that

[1:12:56] >> evokes so much I think.

[1:12:59] >> Um, but I want to read you a section

[1:13:01] from your personal readiness chapter

[1:13:03] that I

[1:13:04] >> I I really liked and how it connects

[1:13:09] health and well-being

[1:13:11] to deep alignment. Okay. You wrote this.

[1:13:14] There is a growing body of research

[1:13:15] highlighting the connection

[1:13:18] between living deeply aligned with

[1:13:20] values

[1:13:22] and an extended health span which is the

[1:13:24] portion of life spent in good health

[1:13:26] without chronic illness or disability.

[1:13:30] Our physiology

[1:13:32] even echoes our sense of purpose. heart

[1:13:36] rate variability, which you've talked

[1:13:38] about on on, you know, several times

[1:13:40] during this podcast so far,

[1:13:41] >> is consistently tied to purpose-driven

[1:13:45] living. I I love it. It's beautiful

[1:13:48] because we we treat these things as

[1:13:50] separate. Oh, I'm going to sort my

[1:13:52] health out.

[1:13:53] >> Oh, and then a different what's my

[1:13:56] purpose, right? I want I want to live

[1:13:58] with more purpose. As if these things

[1:14:00] are separate. So maybe talk to us about

[1:14:04] um you know what alignment means to you

[1:14:07] and why living deeply aligned with your

[1:14:11] values has such a profound impact on our

[1:14:12] health.

[1:14:13] >> Yeah. I mean everything that you just

[1:14:15] said is really I think the a feature of

[1:14:18] an integrated kind of center you know

[1:14:20] and that sounds like so woowoo right but

[1:14:22] it's it's everything the physical the

[1:14:24] mental the emotional the spiritual like

[1:14:27] >> it's

[1:14:29] it's all in us right in the in the sense

[1:14:32] of like it's there for us it's like we

[1:14:34] just have to tap it right we have to

[1:14:37] just say all right this is actually who

[1:14:39] I want to be in the world and I think to

[1:14:42] purpose is is very much related to your

[1:14:45] identity, right? So figuring out who do

[1:14:48] I actually want to be in the world and I

[1:14:50] and I take you in that chapter I kind of

[1:14:52] take you through some exercises and

[1:14:53] there's more in the workbook where

[1:14:55] people can kind of workshop on their own

[1:14:58] like but I I think that's a really

[1:14:59] fundamental question right like I want

[1:15:02] to I want to be a person who lives my

[1:15:03] values with joy and energy that is my

[1:15:06] identity right and everything that I do

[1:15:08] during the day is going to back into

[1:15:10] that identity

[1:15:12] >> now identity doesn't have to be fixed

[1:15:14] right it's going to evolve especially

[1:15:15] like you know, who my daughter is today,

[1:15:18] she's n, you know, she's 18, is going to

[1:15:20] be very different than probably who she

[1:15:21] is at 25. But kind of the core of who

[1:15:24] she is probably doesn't change that

[1:15:25] much, right?

[1:15:26] But but I think in order for us to come

[1:15:29] to a conclusion around what is our

[1:15:31] purpose today and how is that

[1:15:34] influencing how the choices I make today

[1:15:38] is one of the most important I think um

[1:15:44] exercises that you can engage in

[1:15:46] consistently. I think about my values

[1:15:49] every day

[1:15:50] >> and I ask myself at the end of the day

[1:15:52] when I look myself in the mirror, did I

[1:15:54] live my values today? And sometimes yes,

[1:15:56] sometimes no, you know, and but that's

[1:15:59] like the scorecard I keep and that's the

[1:16:01] only one that matters to me because if I

[1:16:03] can live my values, like everything else

[1:16:04] is going to pretty much work out for

[1:16:06] itself, you know, and my mental health

[1:16:08] matters, my physical health matters. So

[1:16:10] if I look myself at the end of the day

[1:16:11] and I didn't like move my body in the

[1:16:13] way that I needed to move my body, well,

[1:16:16] I know that I'm not living my values.

[1:16:18] I'm not being the person I aspire to be.

[1:16:19] I'm not creating the conditions to be

[1:16:22] the person I aspire to be. And that's

[1:16:24] really I think when we're designing our

[1:16:26] life, right, we only get one.

[1:16:29] >> We only get one. So when you're

[1:16:31] designing your life, you need to think

[1:16:32] about what are the conditions that I

[1:16:34] need to engage in across the day for

[1:16:37] whatever your value, whatever your

[1:16:39] identity is for that to be true. What

[1:16:41] are what do I need to engage in? And I

[1:16:42] go back to that principle of

[1:16:43] non-neutrality. Like doing that exercise

[1:16:46] where you're really thinking about, all

[1:16:48] right, if if this is my identity, does

[1:16:50] this behavior support it or does it

[1:16:52] detract from it?

[1:16:54] And then you start to see where you're

[1:16:55] sabotaging your own life.

[1:16:58] And so, you know, purpose, I think, is

[1:17:00] so powerful. And and but it it's you got

[1:17:04] to sit with it and you need to figure

[1:17:06] out, okay, what does this actually mean,

[1:17:08] right? Because that's going to be

[1:17:09] driving your behaviors. It should be

[1:17:11] driving your behaviors.

[1:17:13] >> Yeah.

[1:17:15] It's so interesting this stuff.

[1:17:18] Some people um will no doubt Chris be

[1:17:22] thinking

[1:17:24] I don't know where to start.

[1:17:25] >> Yeah.

[1:17:26] >> Right. What what do you mean my values?

[1:17:27] My I've I've got a job. I need to go to

[1:17:30] my job. I need to

[1:17:32] >> um

[1:17:33] >> you know

[1:17:34] >> earn the money so I can pay the bills

[1:17:36] and getting through each day

[1:17:38] >> is a struggle.

[1:17:40] >> Is thinking about values important for

[1:17:43] that person as well?

[1:17:44] >> It I mean I think for everyone, right?

[1:17:46] Like I think I mean you we see it in the

[1:17:48] research right like our long-term health

[1:17:51] is very much tied to our sense of

[1:17:53] purpose and meaning

[1:17:54] >> and and the thing is you you don't just

[1:17:57] stumble upon meaning you create it you

[1:17:59] build it into your life

[1:18:01] >> you know what are the things that bring

[1:18:03] you actual joy you know and and I think

[1:18:06] that's also one of the traps of

[1:18:08] modernity like we don't actually have

[1:18:10] enough time with our own thoughts

[1:18:12] [snorts]

[1:18:14] >> like we're constantly pulling ourselves

[1:18:16] from the present moment. So, I I think a

[1:18:20] lot of these questions that I invite

[1:18:21] people to to think about are are I don't

[1:18:25] know if they're questions people are

[1:18:26] asking of themselves as intentionally as

[1:18:28] maybe we could or should, right, when it

[1:18:31] comes to like living a purpose- driven

[1:18:32] life. So, I think just just carving out

[1:18:37] 10 minutes to just think about all

[1:18:39] right, what like actually brings me joy?

[1:18:43] And I I think joy can mean a lot of

[1:18:45] different things to a lot of different

[1:18:46] people, right? But that and that's a

[1:18:47] good thing. Yeah. You know, um and then

[1:18:50] what are in order for me to experience

[1:18:51] joy if that's that's something that's

[1:18:52] important to me. What needs to be true

[1:18:54] about my day?

[1:18:56] >> All right. Well, what are the who are

[1:18:58] the what are the people and the the

[1:19:00] outlets, right? Do I have those people

[1:19:02] and outlets in my life that allow that

[1:19:05] allow me to experience that joy, you

[1:19:07] know? So joy could be a value in of

[1:19:10] itself, you know, and and

[1:19:13] Do I have the skills and expertise? You

[1:19:15] know, maybe it's personal growth, right?

[1:19:17] Like how do you and when I talk about

[1:19:20] kind of the scaffolding around

[1:19:21] psychological health, right? It's peace,

[1:19:24] purpose, efficacy, um autonomy, and

[1:19:26] connection, right? And

[1:19:28] >> the purpose you want to discover your

[1:19:30] identity, right, inside your purpose,

[1:19:31] like who do I aspire to be in the world,

[1:19:33] right? And then that helps you back into

[1:19:34] your values, which helps you have a

[1:19:36] purposeful, meaning

[1:19:38] >> meaningful life. Efficacy. Do I have the

[1:19:40] skills and resources to do what's asked

[1:19:42] of me? Right? So, if you are not able to

[1:19:45] live your purpose, right? What kind of

[1:19:47] skills do you need to build?

[1:19:49] >> Right? If you know that energy is really

[1:19:51] important to you and you want to be able

[1:19:53] to be alert during the day and be in a

[1:19:55] good mood, well, what is that? What kind

[1:19:58] of skills do you need to build to make

[1:19:59] that happen? Maybe it's like, I need to

[1:20:00] figure out how to work out.

[1:20:02] >> I need in order to have more energy, I

[1:20:04] need to get fit,

[1:20:05] >> right? um or you know if you're getting

[1:20:07] sick a lot or you know you basically

[1:20:09] what are the skills that I need to build

[1:20:11] what are the resources I need to build

[1:20:12] and that could also mean creating some

[1:20:15] boundaries in your life

[1:20:17] >> and that's where to skip to the

[1:20:18] connection piece do people support who

[1:20:21] you want to be in the world you know

[1:20:23] there's a lot of I think when we look

[1:20:25] around at the people in our life there's

[1:20:28] a lot of people that don't actually

[1:20:29] deserve to be there worthy of us they're

[1:20:32] not worthy of our time right they hurt

[1:20:35] us in ways that um uh keep us from our

[1:20:39] living our our purpose, right? And and

[1:20:41] so the the the quicker you can kind of I

[1:20:44] think um refine your circle, the better

[1:20:46] because that also, you know, impacts the

[1:20:48] quality of your life massively,

[1:20:50] >> right? So a lot of what I'm talking

[1:20:52] about is probably not additional stuff.

[1:20:55] It's actually subtracting stuff.

[1:20:58] >> And you know there's a there's a quote

[1:21:01] by Nibal Ravi Kant who um I think is

[1:21:04] it's great and I and I think about it in

[1:21:06] the context of of peace.

[1:21:08] Um

[1:21:10] desire is a contract you make with

[1:21:12] yourself to be unhappy until you get

[1:21:15] what you want. So it's not about more.

[1:21:19] It's about not having fuzzy desires,

[1:21:22] right? Like thinking about like what do

[1:21:24] I actually need in my life

[1:21:27] >> to feel that sense of purpose and

[1:21:28] meaning?

[1:21:30] >> What needs to be true?

[1:21:32] >> And often times we'll find there's too

[1:21:35] much going on in our lives for us to

[1:21:37] actually focus on that. So we need to

[1:21:39] subtract.

[1:21:40] >> Yeah.

[1:21:41] >> Not add.

[1:21:44] Some of the best books I think are

[1:21:46] written when we have

[1:21:50] >> a real deep personal

[1:21:55] >> desire to to learn about things that

[1:21:58] have affected us and how to move on. And

[1:22:01] as you were talking then

[1:22:03] about

[1:22:06] how some people in our life don't

[1:22:08] deserve to be there,

[1:22:10] >> there was a really strong emotion there

[1:22:12] that I could feel.

[1:22:14] >> Uh you mentioned at the start about some

[1:22:16] aspects of your childhood and your mom

[1:22:18] >> and she struggled

[1:22:20] >> with alcoholism I think you were saying.

[1:22:23] >> Is this a personal book?

[1:22:25] >> Very much so. Yeah. I think one of the

[1:22:28] reasons why I wrote chapter one, the

[1:22:32] alchemy of adversity is and I and I have

[1:22:35] gotten, you know, lots of messages from

[1:22:38] folks who are like, I just assumed your

[1:22:39] life was perfect, you know, and it

[1:22:43] wasn't, you know, and and a lot of that

[1:22:47] struggle that was kind of the first half

[1:22:50] of my life, I think gave me the ability

[1:22:53] to write this book, you know, cuz I had

[1:22:55] to figure it out for myself or you know

[1:22:58] I was going down such a dark path that

[1:23:01] if I didn't figure it out like I would

[1:23:03] not be here today and and so you know I

[1:23:07] had that own kind of moment of reckoning

[1:23:10] for myself where you know I need to you

[1:23:13] know I mean forgiveness is is a big

[1:23:15] piece of of this puzzle right like I had

[1:23:19] an abuser you know my grandfather abused

[1:23:21] me for 10 years of my life you know and

[1:23:23] I needed to figure out how do I move on

[1:23:25] from that how do I not allow this to

[1:23:27] define me, you know, and and knowing

[1:23:30] that, you know, my mom's struggle, my

[1:23:32] mom's pain, that was not my fault, you

[1:23:35] know, but a lot of the coping mechanisms

[1:23:38] that I had developed in response to that

[1:23:41] were maladaptive as an adult, you know,

[1:23:44] I,

[1:23:45] >> you know, what was viewed on the outside

[1:23:48] as gosh, you know, so ambitious, so

[1:23:50] gosh, an athlete and Olympian and all of

[1:23:52] these things, you know, and I didn't

[1:23:55] have any joy

[1:23:56] I could not access joy

[1:24:00] and and so I think for me I if I wanted

[1:24:06] to hopefully accelerate people's wisdom

[1:24:08] around some of this stuff and to know

[1:24:09] that we are just in this together right

[1:24:11] and

[1:24:12] >> and I just think that this is this is a

[1:24:15] short life but it has the the

[1:24:17] opportunity to be a beautiful life you

[1:24:19] know if we understand

[1:24:21] where to focus our attention you know

[1:24:23] and and and what I try to outline in

[1:24:25] this book is just the basic principles,

[1:24:27] right? And you can take it in any

[1:24:28] direction that you want to go, but these

[1:24:30] are the things based on certainly my

[1:24:32] life experience, but also a lot of the

[1:24:35] evidence that exists in the in the in

[1:24:38] the science, you know, around our

[1:24:39] physiology and our psychology, you know,

[1:24:41] I'm standing on the shoulder of of just

[1:24:44] incredible social psychologists and

[1:24:46] Edward DC and Richard Ryan and Albert

[1:24:48] Bura and, you know, Russell Foster and,

[1:24:52] you know, all these just scientists,

[1:24:53] right? you know, people like yourself

[1:24:55] who bring me inspiration every single

[1:24:56] day. And and so this is an amalgam of

[1:24:59] kind of all of that work too on on top

[1:25:01] of this deep personal experience. So,

[1:25:03] it's a long answer. Um, yes, it's it's

[1:25:06] deeply personal.

[1:25:08] >> I mean, first of all, I'm I'm I'm sorry

[1:25:09] for what happened to you

[1:25:11] >> when you were a child. Um,

[1:25:14] I feel

[1:25:16] listening to you and, you know, I

[1:25:19] followed your work for a few years. we

[1:25:21] spoke on this podcast, you know, two or

[1:25:23] three years ago, um, reading the new

[1:25:26] book,

[1:25:29] you know, I I think

[1:25:31] I think it's clear that this is

[1:25:33] something that really matters and it's

[1:25:35] something that you've lived

[1:25:37] >> as well, which I think makes it a much

[1:25:39] more powerful book actually because it's

[1:25:41] one thing to measure data and say, well,

[1:25:42] the data shows this and the data shows

[1:25:44] that. Okay, great.

[1:25:46] And then on a human level,

[1:25:49] >> there's this other aspect which is this

[1:25:51] is a lady who's been through it and I

[1:25:53] think has come out the other side

[1:25:55] >> and wants to share with people that you

[1:25:58] can also come out the other side.

[1:26:00] >> Yeah, you can.

[1:26:01] >> You mentioned forgiveness there and I I

[1:26:04] think about and I have spoken about

[1:26:05] forgiveness a lot over the years

[1:26:08] >> and I've always found it to be quite a

[1:26:11] divisive topic understandably. Okay.

[1:26:14] given what you just said about your

[1:26:17] childhoods,

[1:26:19] >> you know, how do you think about

[1:26:20] forgiveness? Well, I just I think for me

[1:26:23] um it was associated with just feelings

[1:26:26] of anger, you know, and resentment and

[1:26:30] and I knew that if I didn't let go of

[1:26:32] that, it was going to just continue to

[1:26:35] haunt me, you know, and and it I don't

[1:26:38] have to forgive

[1:26:40] um the actions, you know, but I needed

[1:26:45] to

[1:26:47] develop a perspective that allowed me to

[1:26:50] release the anger um that I felt and the

[1:26:54] only path to that was to forgive. And

[1:26:57] when I was working with um I was at the

[1:27:00] University of Iowa at the time and um

[1:27:02] and I was working with a a psychiatrist

[1:27:04] and

[1:27:05] I remember um you know he he he said to

[1:27:09] me that you know we don't you don't have

[1:27:11] to

[1:27:13] excuse or um

[1:27:16] you know uh it's it's not forgiveness is

[1:27:19] not about saying what happened to you

[1:27:22] was was was right like that. That's not

[1:27:24] what forgiveness is.

[1:27:25] releasing the hold that that has on you,

[1:27:30] you know, and and so that was that was

[1:27:33] the the project for me was like, all

[1:27:34] right, how do I actually get to a place

[1:27:36] and you know, and in those conversations

[1:27:38] like it's stuff that I never talked

[1:27:40] about, but you know, my my grandfather

[1:27:42] was um he's an Episcopalian priest

[1:27:45] actually. Um but his whole life he he

[1:27:48] was uh adopted and bounced from foster

[1:27:51] home to foster home to foster home. you

[1:27:53] know, he was he didn't have an easy

[1:27:55] life. He and I he probably went into the

[1:27:58] seminary to try to escape his demons,

[1:28:01] you know, and and get, you know, who

[1:28:02] knows? But I I I just tried so

[1:28:04] desperately to look at that scenario

[1:28:06] from the lens of when he was a kid.

[1:28:09] >> Yeah.

[1:28:10] >> What happened to him, you know, and and

[1:28:12] that helped me a lot, you know, and and

[1:28:14] I and I carry that forward and I write

[1:28:16] about that in the book. just little

[1:28:18] things like someone cuts me off on that,

[1:28:20] you know, like the like maybe they had a

[1:28:22] hard day like I just always put myself

[1:28:24] in someone's shoes to and assume the

[1:28:26] best and I and I think in in today's

[1:28:28] world like we just tend to assume the

[1:28:30] worst. Yeah. That's like our default,

[1:28:32] you know, and that's exhausting. Like if

[1:28:34] you just assume best intentions

[1:28:36] generally, and I'm not telling people to

[1:28:38] be naive, right? Need to keep your head

[1:28:40] on a swivel, of course. But but but also

[1:28:43] like I think we're inherently good and

[1:28:47] and I have a wild belief in our capacity

[1:28:50] for good and and I I just Yeah,

[1:28:54] >> that's Thank you. First of all, thank

[1:28:56] you for sharing. It's really beautiful.

[1:28:58] Um beautiful and empowering, I what you

[1:29:01] just said for people,

[1:29:03] it it also links back to how we started

[1:29:05] this conversation about the autonomic

[1:29:07] nervous system, right?

[1:29:09] >> We think the worst of people when we

[1:29:11] don't have control of our autonomic

[1:29:13] nervous system. And of course, trauma,

[1:29:16] there's a whole chapter on trauma in

[1:29:17] this book.

[1:29:18] >> Trauma leaves an imprint on the nervous

[1:29:21] system, right? So, it's the nervous

[1:29:22] system is more likely to be reactive.

[1:29:24] you're more likely to think the the

[1:29:26] person cutting you up was doing it

[1:29:29] intentionally, even though it it

[1:29:31] literally had nothing to do with

[1:29:33] >> mechanisms in your brain even like it's

[1:29:35] just wild.

[1:29:36] >> Yeah. But but even what you said about

[1:29:38] trying to understand

[1:29:40] >> your grandfather's life.

[1:29:41] >> Yeah.

[1:29:42] >> Whenever I try and help people with

[1:29:44] forgiveness and and I I totally get that

[1:29:46] this can be challenging for people

[1:29:48] especially given some of the things that

[1:29:50] have happened in the world.

[1:29:52] I do believe and I found this in my own

[1:29:54] life that curiosity

[1:29:56] >> is the way to get there.

[1:29:59] >> Not judgment.

[1:30:00] >> Yeah.

[1:30:00] >> Judgment will keep you locked. It won't

[1:30:03] allow you to move on. And I understand

[1:30:05] where the judgment comes from. Right. So

[1:30:07] I'm not saying I don't I understand it.

[1:30:09] >> Yeah.

[1:30:09] >> You're not you ain't going to move on if

[1:30:11] you if you're judging.

[1:30:13] >> But if you can

[1:30:15] >> just start to open the door to curiosity

[1:30:18] like why did that person act like that?

[1:30:20] I don't like what they did. Why?

[1:30:23] >> Yeah.

[1:30:24] >> It just starts to soften the

[1:30:26] relationship with things. I'm not saying

[1:30:28] it's for you. I would never I would

[1:30:29] never dare to talk about someone's

[1:30:31] experience and how they found it. But

[1:30:32] since you've gone down that path,

[1:30:36] >> what has the impact been on you?

[1:30:38] >> I mean, I think I I look at when I feel

[1:30:41] emotions bubble up, I'm like, is that an

[1:30:43] emotion of trust or is that an emotion

[1:30:45] of fear? And to your exact point, you

[1:30:48] know, and I talk about that in in the

[1:30:50] fear and trust chapter is you really

[1:30:52] want to step back and like almost be

[1:30:54] like a third person like observer, you

[1:30:57] know, and just be like and get curious

[1:30:59] about it, you know, and why am I feeling

[1:31:00] insecure? Why am I defensive? Why? You

[1:31:04] know, like just you ask yourself that

[1:31:06] question and that level of awareness

[1:31:08] >> will put you back into that

[1:31:10] parasympathetic state

[1:31:12] >> back into feeling just a little bit of a

[1:31:14] sense of agency over that emotion

[1:31:17] >> and and be like, does this actually need

[1:31:20] an action or is this just something I

[1:31:22] need to let go? And like you just try to

[1:31:24] like it's I I think what where people go

[1:31:27] wrong is they try to suppress it or

[1:31:28] ignore it or and and I think that that

[1:31:30] is not the path. Then I I did that for

[1:31:33] 24 years, you know, um until I decided

[1:31:36] or I was forced to confront all the

[1:31:39] stuff that had happened in my life. And

[1:31:41] I don't think we have to wait, you know.

[1:31:43] I think and and not in your when you're

[1:31:46] ready, it will happen for you. But I

[1:31:49] think just as a

[1:31:51] practice, thinking about our emotions

[1:31:55] as either trust emotions or fear

[1:31:57] emotions is like an awesome place to

[1:31:58] start. Really empowering. It helps you

[1:32:01] understand, wow, I have a lot of

[1:32:03] fear-based emotions.

[1:32:04] >> Yeah.

[1:32:05] >> Right. I feel jealous. I feel insecure.

[1:32:07] I feel, you know, whatever the thing is,

[1:32:09] right? And and get curious about it and

[1:32:12] then think about, all right, how can I

[1:32:14] replace this with a trustbased emotion,

[1:32:16] right? And back to the autonomic nervous

[1:32:18] system. And there's good data around

[1:32:20] fear and trust. Just generally

[1:32:22] trustbased emotions like are

[1:32:24] >> they are growthoriented. They open you

[1:32:26] up to the world, right? like you have

[1:32:28] you and not to mention you invite that

[1:32:30] energy in

[1:32:31] >> if you're afraid like that's the energy

[1:32:34] you're going to pull into your life,

[1:32:36] >> right? And it it doesn't have to happen

[1:32:38] all at once, right? But it it's just

[1:32:40] this recognition of how can I build in

[1:32:43] these trust based emotions more often,

[1:32:45] you know?

[1:32:45] >> Yeah. I I I think it's a great framework

[1:32:47] to to look at life. I' I've I've thought

[1:32:51] and said for many years that all of our

[1:32:53] behaviors either come from love or fear.

[1:32:57] >> Yeah. which is kind of trust or fear,

[1:32:59] right? Same thing in a slightly

[1:33:00] different language. And

[1:33:02] >> um there are so many emotions that we

[1:33:06] feel, but they're actually downstream,

[1:33:08] right? So anger, as you say, jealousy,

[1:33:10] envy,

[1:33:12] >> um anxiety, whatever it might be,

[1:33:15] >> yeah,

[1:33:15] >> these are downstream from fear. So

[1:33:17] that's one arm, that's a nervous system

[1:33:21] that is overstimulated, that is, you

[1:33:24] know, hypervigilant.

[1:33:25] >> Hyper vigilant, right? on the other

[1:33:27] side,

[1:33:27] >> bracing for the worst.

[1:33:30] >> Yeah, exactly. The other side,

[1:33:32] >> you know, it comes from love. Love for

[1:33:34] ourselves, love for the world around us,

[1:33:35] love for other people.

[1:33:37] >> That's where uh joy comes in, empathy,

[1:33:41] compassion, curiosity, forgiveness, and

[1:33:44] and I actually think it's a beautiful

[1:33:46] framework to look at the world through.

[1:33:48] It's like, and you know, let's say

[1:33:50] someone's tuning in to this podcast for

[1:33:51] health, right?

[1:33:52] >> Yeah. and they're like, "Yeah, I like

[1:33:54] what Kristen said about doing zone 2

[1:33:57] exercise every day. I'm going to do that

[1:33:59] now." Okay, great. And then they try for

[1:34:02] a few weeks.

[1:34:03] If

[1:34:05] they're not able to do that, right? And

[1:34:08] let's say that there's a capabilities

[1:34:09] there in their life because we know that

[1:34:10] there's a big gap between knowledge and

[1:34:12] implementation. Those people know what

[1:34:14] to do. They're still not doing it.

[1:34:17] I think a lot of the time what fills

[1:34:19] that gap is love or fear, right? Are you

[1:34:23] making that change because you love

[1:34:24] yourself, because you trust yourself,

[1:34:26] because you know you deserve that?

[1:34:29] >> Or is part of you,

[1:34:32] >> is there part of you that doesn't like

[1:34:33] itself?

[1:34:34] >> Yeah.

[1:34:34] >> Right. You don't like who you are.

[1:34:35] You're trying to beat yourself up with

[1:34:37] that behavior, whatever it might be. And

[1:34:38] I I've genuinely found in my own life

[1:34:42] my definition of success is wrong.

[1:34:46] How much of today did you live with an

[1:34:48] open heart?

[1:34:50] >> That's it for me. I I I think at this

[1:34:52] point in my life I've come to that

[1:34:54] conclusion which is

[1:34:55] >> that's the only thing that matters

[1:34:57] wrong. And if you can live your life

[1:34:58] with an open heart

[1:35:00] >> or notice when it's starting to close

[1:35:02] >> and go wait a minute I'm not going to

[1:35:04] let that happen. I'm going to keep it

[1:35:05] open here.

[1:35:07] good things start to happen. It is

[1:35:09] amazing because I've been trying it and

[1:35:11] good things happen.

[1:35:12] >> David White has a beautiful essay on

[1:35:15] openheartedness.

[1:35:16] >> Wow.

[1:35:17] >> Um yeah, he he's a kind of a poet

[1:35:19] philosopher from Ireland and um he's

[1:35:21] like just one of my favorite um poets, I

[1:35:24] suppose. Um

[1:35:25] >> and he he talks about this concept of

[1:35:28] openheartedness. And I think what I love

[1:35:31] about it is he always reminds us that

[1:35:34] open-heartedness in the face of knowing

[1:35:36] that there's heartbreak, right? On the

[1:35:39] other side of that, right, when you

[1:35:41] give, when you open your heart to a

[1:35:42] love, to a work, right, the possibility

[1:35:46] of failure is there.

[1:35:47] >> Yeah.

[1:35:47] >> Right. But you have to have an open

[1:35:49] heart anyway, you know, and and I think

[1:35:51] that to me is like this whole project,

[1:35:53] right? is how do we love in the face of

[1:35:56] of that uncertainty, you know, and and

[1:35:58] how do we kind of come to the day with

[1:36:02] this big heart, you know, that's that's

[1:36:04] kind and open and loving,

[1:36:06] >> you know, I think that that can be a

[1:36:07] challenge, you know, for a lot of folks

[1:36:08] who've been hurt, you know, is is God,

[1:36:10] how do I

[1:36:11] >> how do I just do this anyway?

[1:36:13] >> Yeah, it can be a challenge.

[1:36:16] >> And it's still possible.

[1:36:17] >> It is.

[1:36:18] >> It's still possible. You mentioned David

[1:36:19] White

[1:36:20] >> in this middle section, the the

[1:36:22] architecture within

[1:36:24] You basically make this case that if

[1:36:26] fear is overwhelming your nervous system

[1:36:30] then this uh team framework tea is a

[1:36:33] useful way to look at the impact it's

[1:36:35] having right

[1:36:36] >> time expectations attachment and memory

[1:36:39] >> in the memory section

[1:36:42] you quote David White you talk about

[1:36:45] this idea that tending to our memory is

[1:36:48] a spiritual practice and a physiological

[1:36:51] one which I found really really

[1:36:52] interesting thing and then you say in

[1:36:55] his essay nostalgia, David White writes

[1:36:57] that nostalgia is not an indulgence in

[1:36:59] the past but a reaching back to

[1:37:02] something essential that has been lost.

[1:37:06] What does that mean?

[1:37:08] >> I think what he's saying is that it can

[1:37:11] be just when something surfaces from

[1:37:14] your past, it's kind of a comment on

[1:37:16] what matters to you in that moment. And

[1:37:19] it's I think he's inviting us to just

[1:37:22] investigate, you know, and examine hm

[1:37:25] why did that surface?

[1:37:27] >> Why what what why do I need to pull that

[1:37:29] forward right now?

[1:37:30] >> And that and it could be really useful

[1:37:32] for you in some way. Maybe it's a

[1:37:34] perspective on a current relationship

[1:37:36] you're in or you know a learning from

[1:37:38] the past that you need to make sure that

[1:37:40] you don't repeat in the future. And so

[1:37:43] memory can be really powerful and isn't

[1:37:47] always um you know I think it's the

[1:37:49] distinction, you know, of just you're

[1:37:53] not living in the past, but you're using

[1:37:55] your memory as a gift to inform how you

[1:38:00] live more present.

[1:38:03] >> And and I think too like

[1:38:06] when something from your past keeps

[1:38:08] surfacing, get curious about it, right?

[1:38:11] Is that creating fear? Is that

[1:38:14] >> keeping you from being able to move

[1:38:15] forward with your life in a way that is

[1:38:18] adaptive and functional and healthy?

[1:38:21] Right?

[1:38:22] >> So memory while sometimes unnerving and

[1:38:26] unsettling um usually is a comment on

[1:38:30] what is ma what matters to you and

[1:38:31] something you probably need to think a

[1:38:33] little bit more about.

[1:38:34] >> Yeah, I really appreciate hearing your

[1:38:36] perspective there. I actually was

[1:38:38] reading this section I think on the

[1:38:41] plane back from Dublin on Monday, right?

[1:38:43] >> Oh wow. Yeah.

[1:38:45] >> And you know I I I touched on Bonjovi

[1:38:48] earlier on in this conversation. But

[1:38:50] let's give you a bit of context and why

[1:38:52] I thought of my relationship with that

[1:38:53] band when I read that

[1:38:55] >> passage from from David White in your

[1:38:57] book is because

[1:39:00] you know as a teenage boy growing up in

[1:39:03] the north of England, the son of

[1:39:04] immigrant parents,

[1:39:07] >> I don't know what it was, but there was

[1:39:10] something about that band

[1:39:12] >> that just spoke to me as a kid. Like I

[1:39:15] was hooked. I would listen to

[1:39:18] everything. I'd buy every bside. I had

[1:39:20] posters everywhere. I had flags. I

[1:39:22] literally I I was just obsessed. I saw

[1:39:25] my mom the other day. She's like, "Are

[1:39:26] you still doing that whole bonjour with

[1:39:28] thing?" Like, "Oh my god, that's so

[1:39:29] cute."

[1:39:30] >> You know, I've I've seen them over 30

[1:39:31] times in concert, right? I've been all

[1:39:33] over the world to watch them.

[1:39:34] >> Wow.

[1:39:34] >> And

[1:39:36] you know, for the last few years, I

[1:39:37] haven't listened that much, right? I

[1:39:40] started listening again last October

[1:39:43] because, you know, I got offered the

[1:39:46] chance to speak to John on my show,

[1:39:49] which I was like, [laughter]

[1:39:50] >> just incredible.

[1:39:51] >> And we had a beautiful conversation.

[1:39:54] And a big part of the story with uh

[1:39:57] Bonjovi is that John has been losing his

[1:40:00] voice. He had an operation four years

[1:40:01] ago. He didn't know if he'd ever be able

[1:40:03] to sing again, let alone perform again.

[1:40:05] And he has literally done 3 hours of

[1:40:09] rehab a day, 5 days a week for for many

[1:40:13] years. I think three or four years.

[1:40:14] >> Jesus.

[1:40:14] >> Right.

[1:40:16] >> And Sunday night was really powerful

[1:40:19] because I think a lot of us felt

[1:40:21] nostalgia.

[1:40:22] >> Yeah.

[1:40:23] >> Right. A lot of us Yeah. we grew up with

[1:40:25] that band. We never thought we were

[1:40:28] going to see them again. I never thought

[1:40:30] I'd see them again with John's voice

[1:40:32] sounding that good. I was like thinking,

[1:40:34] what kind of work have you been doing to

[1:40:36] get your voice back there

[1:40:38] >> from nearly not having it? And what's

[1:40:40] really interesting is that throughout

[1:40:41] the concert,

[1:40:43] >> I started to feel

[1:40:45] >> this joy within me that I haven't felt

[1:40:48] in years, Kristen. Wow.

[1:40:49] >> Like I'm coming home. I think I said

[1:40:51] before, I think I'm driving my wife nuts

[1:40:53] at the moment cuz I'm literally singing

[1:40:54] Bon Joy songs. I'm getting my guitar

[1:40:56] out. I'm starting to sing Wanted Dead or

[1:40:59] Alive and all this sort of stuff I used

[1:41:00] to sing as a teenager.

[1:41:02] And I'm going again to Wembley this

[1:41:04] weekend to see them.

[1:41:05] >> I love it.

[1:41:06] >> I mean, I I just can't get enough of it.

[1:41:08] But it's

[1:41:09] >> nostalgia.

[1:41:10] >> It's It's like what he says, right?

[1:41:13] >> It's not an indulgence in the past. No,

[1:41:15] something that was not an indulgence in

[1:41:16] the past. It was a reaching back to

[1:41:18] something essential that had been lost.

[1:41:20] >> Yeah.

[1:41:21] >> There was a part of me

[1:41:25] >> that missed all that.

[1:41:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you need it in your life

[1:41:28] right now.

[1:41:28] >> Oh my god. I got a different energy this

[1:41:31] week. I'm like and [laughter] I'm I feel

[1:41:33] like a kid again. Like I'm 49. I feel

[1:41:35] like a kid. I'm like, "Oh my god, Friday

[1:41:37] night, Sunday night, I'm a Wembley. Come

[1:41:39] on. I can't wait." I love that. And

[1:41:41] that's okay. Right. So,

[1:41:44] >> trying to bring this back onto uh the

[1:41:46] topic of this conversation. You know,

[1:41:48] >> what what does joy do for our nervous

[1:41:51] systems? What does joy do for our HIV? I

[1:41:54] mean, I'd love to dismbiguate between

[1:41:56] kind of joy and happiness, you know, and

[1:41:58] um and and Dr. Judith [clears throat]

[1:42:00] Joseph, I don't know if you ever talked

[1:42:01] to her, but she wrote a a book called

[1:42:03] High Functioning Depression, and I

[1:42:05] interviewed her um maybe a year and a

[1:42:07] half ago now, but she's brilliant and

[1:42:09] someone you should have on the podcast.

[1:42:11] I I just I love I love the way she

[1:42:13] approaches things. But uh and she's so

[1:42:15] damn funny. She's hilarious. Like the

[1:42:16] stuff she creates, I'm like, how do you

[1:42:18] even do all this? But anyway, high

[1:42:19] functioning depression. So that's

[1:42:21] basically like that anidonia like that

[1:42:23] feeling of just meh like everyone on the

[1:42:26] outside and I I was a high functioning

[1:42:27] I'd had high functioning depression for

[1:42:29] sure self diagnosed this is not in the

[1:42:31] DSM but um but I I think they're working

[1:42:34] toward that because I think so many

[1:42:36] people can identify with this idea that

[1:42:38] you are able to function really well in

[1:42:40] your day-to-day life. You might be a

[1:42:42] surgeon, you might be a high performing

[1:42:43] athlete. You might be, you know, one of

[1:42:46] the best coaches in the country.

[1:42:47] whatever it is, but you cannot access

[1:42:49] joy. You have high functioning

[1:42:52] depression. And so I I think to me

[1:42:56] happiness

[1:42:58] can be felt whilst being depressed. And

[1:43:01] happiness is through kind of things like

[1:43:03] that are external to you that bring you

[1:43:05] kind of that level of happiness.

[1:43:08] Joy, I think, is felt from my

[1:43:11] perspective. It's something that's

[1:43:13] internal

[1:43:14] that you're accessing. Like, it is

[1:43:17] something that is with you that doesn't

[1:43:19] require actually anyone else

[1:43:21] necessarily. Like, it's kind of like

[1:43:23] this inside job of just this deep sense

[1:43:27] of peace,

[1:43:28] >> right? And I think that there's external

[1:43:31] things that can ignite that like a Bonjo

[1:43:33] a John Bonjovi concert, right? can

[1:43:36] ignite something inside you, but that is

[1:43:39] lived experience in you.

[1:43:40] >> Yeah.

[1:43:41] >> And and it's it's so it's not John

[1:43:43] necessarily, right? Like [clears throat]

[1:43:44] give yourself more credit, I guess. I

[1:43:46] guess and that's where I think we

[1:43:47] outsource our joy and and kind of say,

[1:43:50] "Oh, it's that thing that's giving me

[1:43:51] the joy." No, it's like it's your

[1:43:53] relationship to that thing

[1:43:55] >> that you've created inside you. this

[1:43:58] this internal compass, right, that that

[1:44:01] is allowing you to access that joy, you

[1:44:04] know, and and so I feel like it joy is

[1:44:05] just a fundamentally different

[1:44:08] >> lever, you know, than than happiness and

[1:44:11] that it's something that you own and

[1:44:13] that you can cultivate within yourself.

[1:44:15] >> Yeah.

[1:44:16] >> In ways that I think happiness is a

[1:44:17] little bit more elusive.

[1:44:18] >> Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. I really

[1:44:21] like the the way you put that.

[1:44:24] One of the other things I wanted to

[1:44:26] discuss with you is it's in the chapter

[1:44:28] before. So it's all in this middle

[1:44:30] section about the architecture within

[1:44:32] but there's a a chapter on trauma you

[1:44:35] know which you call the past has never

[1:44:37] passed. And you write beautifully how

[1:44:41] you know loss of any sort uh is not just

[1:44:44] emotional it's an injury to the nervous

[1:44:47] system and and you have this

[1:44:49] >> heal framework right to help people

[1:44:53] you know think about the impact trauma

[1:44:54] has had and how they can move forward. H

[1:44:56] E A L heart, energy, autonomy and love,

[1:45:01] >> in the section on love,

[1:45:04] >> right? It it was it was really beautiful

[1:45:07] and and there was something you wrote

[1:45:08] which made me wonder if you're spiritual

[1:45:11] >> and I'm pretty sure I know now that

[1:45:13] through this conversation that you are.

[1:45:14] But

[1:45:15] >> in that section you wrote, "We can

[1:45:17] search far and wide for love, but it

[1:45:20] should be of great solace to know that

[1:45:22] there is a wellspring of love and peace

[1:45:25] inside us.

[1:45:27] Are you a spiritual person? [laughter]

[1:45:29] >> Uh, very much so. Um, I'm definitely a

[1:45:32] naturalist at heart. You know, I spend a

[1:45:33] lot of time outside. [laughter] Um, and

[1:45:36] and so I I feel like, you know, nature

[1:45:38] is God, you know, in in a sense, like,

[1:45:41] and so, yeah, I think I'm I'm very

[1:45:43] spiritual in that sense. Um, I I do go

[1:45:46] to church. Um uh so I I suppose I'm I'm

[1:45:51] definitely I have this firm belief that

[1:45:53] there's something much bigger than than

[1:45:55] us out there.

[1:45:56] >> Um and that brings me a lot of a lot of

[1:45:58] peace I think knowing that. Um but I

[1:46:01] think that that passage in particular um

[1:46:04] really

[1:46:06] meant

[1:46:08] a lot to me because it's taken me a

[1:46:10] lifetime to get there.

[1:46:12] >> Yeah. to really believe that like to

[1:46:14] write that and and believe that there's

[1:46:15] actually a wellspring of peace and love

[1:46:18] inside and you know just for I I guess

[1:46:22] your listeners like a really practical

[1:46:24] way that I that I have been I've been

[1:46:27] doing for a very long time that helped

[1:46:28] me cultivate this is um loving kindness

[1:46:31] meditation.

[1:46:32] >> Exactly where I was going to go next.

[1:46:33] >> I know it. It's like I could say, "Oh, I

[1:46:36] love myself." But I hated myself for so

[1:46:40] long

[1:46:42] despite every marker of success that

[1:46:45] someone could look from the outside.

[1:46:46] Like I loathe myself and like that, you

[1:46:51] know, and a lot of it was just like, you

[1:46:54] know, just [snorts]

[1:46:55] trying to figure out like who who

[1:46:57] actually am I in this in this world?

[1:46:58] like when I put aside my past and like

[1:47:02] and and figure out how to come to terms

[1:47:04] with that, like what am I actually left

[1:47:06] with, you know? And if I were to take

[1:47:07] away all of these like external markers

[1:47:10] of success, what am I left with? And and

[1:47:12] I I hated that person. I had to like

[1:47:16] build myself basically from the ground

[1:47:18] up in my mid20s. And and that has been a

[1:47:22] project ever since. And part of that

[1:47:24] journey has been figuring out, okay, how

[1:47:26] do I actually get to a place where I can

[1:47:28] look in the mirror and be

[1:47:30] >> just completely just content, you know,

[1:47:33] with the the person looking back at me.

[1:47:35] And it started with my values and really

[1:47:36] auditing that and like looking more

[1:47:38] >> honestly at my behaviors and seeing

[1:47:41] where there was alignment, where there

[1:47:42] wasn't. And and then, you know, one of

[1:47:44] the practices that the the psychiatrist

[1:47:47] I was working with, looking back, I'm

[1:47:48] like, gosh, you know, he was like, I

[1:47:50] need to write him a note. [laughter]

[1:47:52] um he really helped me um but uh he got

[1:47:56] me onto this loving kindness meditation

[1:47:58] and also known as as meta and and I

[1:48:01] think what I love about it is it starts

[1:48:03] internal you know it's like all right

[1:48:06] >> how do I what are the phrases that I can

[1:48:09] bring forth and meditate on that make me

[1:48:12] feel a sense of love toward myself and

[1:48:16] then you kind of move yourself outward

[1:48:18] you know where you kind of go to someone

[1:48:20] close to you and then someone neutral

[1:48:21] and then to the world and I think you

[1:48:23] know you said it this open heart right

[1:48:25] like how do we get to that open heart

[1:48:27] you have to love yourself first like

[1:48:29] there's no other path to having an open

[1:48:31] heart like you have to love yourself

[1:48:33] first

[1:48:34] >> and and I this es and flows sometimes I

[1:48:36] like myself more than other times right

[1:48:38] which I think is totally normal

[1:48:40] >> um but I think I think like if we were

[1:48:42] to like zoom all the way out that's the

[1:48:44] place to start you know and when you

[1:48:46] love yourself you honor your body you

[1:48:48] nourish your body you make better

[1:48:50] choices with the food you put in your

[1:48:52] you you attract people who are also

[1:48:55] loving and kind and yeah I just feel

[1:48:58] like it has that's the place to start

[1:49:00] you know

[1:49:00] >> is your behavior coming from love or

[1:49:02] fear right and uh it's really beautiful

[1:49:05] thank you so much

[1:49:06] >> for opening up and sharing

[1:49:09] >> I guess for someone non-spiritual who

[1:49:11] may not believe

[1:49:13] >> you know this idea that there is a

[1:49:15] wellspring of love inside us or that

[1:49:17] it's not their belief system

[1:49:19] [clears throat]

[1:49:19] >> well perhaps this is their belief system

[1:49:21] in, you know, the final section book

[1:49:23] where there's

[1:49:23] >> it's all about recovery.

[1:49:25] >> Yeah.

[1:49:25] >> And autonomic nervous system promoting

[1:49:27] recovery.

[1:49:28] >> Maybe there's 19 20 different

[1:49:30] techniques. 22

[1:49:31] >> 22. Okay. And you know, sauna, cold

[1:49:34] plunge, contrast therapy, breath work,

[1:49:36] nutrition, like it's all there with the

[1:49:39] data and practices around it, which is

[1:49:40] wonderful.

[1:49:41] >> And again, you make you don't have to do

[1:49:43] it all. It's like a bit of a pick and

[1:49:45] it's a menu.

[1:49:46] >> It's a menu.

[1:49:46] >> Pick pick some. But on on you know

[1:49:49] technique 18 which is loving kindness

[1:49:51] meditation.

[1:49:52] >> I can't believe that you have that

[1:49:53] earmarked and we just went there.

[1:49:56] >> Yeah it's um it's synchronicity. It's

[1:49:59] starting to happen now. Right.

[1:50:00] >> But you talk about loving kindness

[1:50:02] meditation. Right. You say that often

[1:50:04] begins with a quiet repetition of a

[1:50:06] simple heartfelt phrase. May I be safe.

[1:50:08] May I be healthy. May I live with ease.

[1:50:10] Right. And you you you do it with

[1:50:12] yourself then to people in your

[1:50:13] community. Then sometimes you can extend

[1:50:15] it to people you don't like or you've

[1:50:16] had an issue with it. But it's really

[1:50:18] powerful.

[1:50:19] >> It's so I can't even underscore how like

[1:50:21] >> it's it's wonderful. And then you you

[1:50:23] write this. Okay. This meditative focus

[1:50:27] we're talking about loving kindness

[1:50:28] meditation activates the parasympathetic

[1:50:32] nervous system, reduces stress

[1:50:35] reactivity

[1:50:36] and improves heart rate variability.

[1:50:39] Frederickson and colleagues found that

[1:50:41] regular loving kindness meditation

[1:50:43] practices increase the tone of the

[1:50:45] veagal nerve, the body's primary pathway

[1:50:48] for calm and social connection. And you

[1:50:50] you just keep going on. [laughter] The

[1:50:52] point being living with an open heart

[1:50:55] >> and

[1:50:57] loving yourself and others

[1:50:59] >> builds resilience.

[1:51:00] >> It's good for you.

[1:51:01] >> Yeah, it's good for you. It really

[1:51:02] [snorts] is. Yeah.

[1:51:03] >> You don't want to believe any spiritual

[1:51:05] self and that you think it's good for

[1:51:07] your health to be [laughter] that way.

[1:51:08] It is. Yeah. And you know I I know that

[1:51:11] there's also like for me just to to lean

[1:51:13] on the spiritual side is just I mean I'm

[1:51:15] a you know I'm a scientist too, you

[1:51:17] know. So I appreciate

[1:51:18] >> You can be both, can't you?

[1:51:19] >> I sure can. I am. Um and yeah, I mean I

[1:51:22] that's what I really tried to bring to

[1:51:24] this book is I wanted I wanted the

[1:51:26] evidence, right? Like I wanted, you

[1:51:27] know, if we're if I'm to outline 22

[1:51:30] behaviors that help improve autonomic

[1:51:32] nervous system resilience, well, there's

[1:51:34] going to be some evidence behind them,

[1:51:35] you know? I think people people want

[1:51:36] that, right? And and I think that just

[1:51:38] protects me too from you know um as a as

[1:51:40] a scientist I guess. But but I I think

[1:51:43] too like just having knowing that this

[1:51:45] stuff actually works.

[1:51:46] >> Yeah.

[1:51:46] >> You know like it it makes you a better

[1:51:48] person

[1:51:49] >> but it also um you know if you are if

[1:51:53] you want to tap into that spiritual side

[1:51:55] I think it really does it does that too

[1:51:57] you know.

[1:51:58] >> Yeah. [sighs]

[1:51:59] >> Well Kristen we could we could talk for

[1:52:00] hours. I mean, we've [laughter] got so

[1:52:02] many um topics and and sort of

[1:52:06] >> so many shared interests.

[1:52:08] >> Uh I I really appreciate how much you've

[1:52:10] opened up today. Um

[1:52:12] >> I really love the the varied nature of

[1:52:15] the book, right? I think if people are

[1:52:17] expecting it just to be

[1:52:19] >> Kristen Holmes, performance scientist at

[1:52:21] Whoop,

[1:52:22] >> there's that and there's a whole other

[1:52:24] side as well, which I think is is really

[1:52:26] beautiful to see

[1:52:27] >> uh in a book. So, thank you for writing

[1:52:29] it. It's out now. Of course. The book is

[1:52:31] called Aligned, the datadriven guide to

[1:52:34] performance, recovery, and human

[1:52:35] potential. Who doesn't want better

[1:52:38] performance, recovery, and and to

[1:52:39] fulfill our potential? So, I think it's

[1:52:41] a book for everyone.

[1:52:42] >> To finish off this conversation,

[1:52:47] >> for someone who has been listening,

[1:52:49] Kristen, and

[1:52:51] does feel stuck

[1:52:53] >> and perhaps there were elements of your

[1:52:55] personal story that they resonated with.

[1:53:00] but they're like, "Yeah, I I know

[1:53:01] Kristen's done it. I can see that she's

[1:53:04] done the work. She's moved through it,

[1:53:05] but I feel lost.

[1:53:08] >> I don't know where to start."

[1:53:10] What would you say to them?

[1:53:13] >> I think having someone neutral to talk

[1:53:15] to um was a a big unlock for me

[1:53:20] cuz I I didn't really know what to do. I

[1:53:24] I was the same like I could hear all

[1:53:25] these things you know but I think

[1:53:27] talking to a professional um who can

[1:53:32] hear about the issues that you

[1:53:34] personally are facing

[1:53:37] understands your constraints

[1:53:40] can give you a place to start you know

[1:53:42] and and maybe it's just I mean for me it

[1:53:45] was just journaling like that's where I

[1:53:47] started he's like I I did it as a child

[1:53:50] I I write I've always he's like what do

[1:53:53] you like to do I'm like, "Well, I love

[1:53:54] to write." He's like, "Let's start

[1:53:56] journaling."

[1:53:57] >> And I just and he gave me some prompts.

[1:53:59] I started journaling and I my life

[1:54:02] started making sense,

[1:54:04] you know, and and and I would come to

[1:54:06] the sessions and I and I'd have some

[1:54:09] revelations and we'd talk through it and

[1:54:12] we were just able to build from there.

[1:54:13] So, everyone's starting point is going

[1:54:15] to be a little bit different, but I

[1:54:17] think if someone feels really stuck in

[1:54:20] their healing journey, feels really

[1:54:22] stuck in um a a trauma or certainly is

[1:54:26] maybe trauma isn't necess is does trauma

[1:54:29] can be a precursor kind of kindling for

[1:54:31] depression and anxiety and um so, you

[1:54:34] know, obviously I don't know where, you

[1:54:36] know, wherever you are on that spectrum.

[1:54:37] I think getting help and support from a

[1:54:40] professional is a great place to start.

[1:54:43] >> Yeah. Um, and I and I know not everyone

[1:54:44] has some has the resources, but um, but

[1:54:47] I I think mental health support is more

[1:54:50] ubiquitous now. Um, so I to me I think

[1:54:54] that that's a great place to start on

[1:54:56] your journey.

[1:54:57] >> Yeah, love it. Well, Kristen, thank you

[1:54:58] for everything you do and you continue

[1:55:00] to do. Thank you for the beautiful

[1:55:01] energy

[1:55:02] >> and thank you so much for coming on the

[1:55:04] show.

[1:55:04] >> Thank you for having me. It's been just

[1:55:06] an absolute honor.

[1:55:07] >> If you enjoyed this video, do stick

[1:55:09] around. I picked out this one which I

[1:55:11] think you're really going to enjoy as

[1:55:13] well.

RC
Artist
Rangan Chatterjee

Watch more from Rangan Chatterjee on YouTube.

Website
Explore Topics
Nervous-system-regulationAutonomic-nervous-systemSleep-and-circadian-rhythmSelf-compassionEmotional-eating

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

The autonomic nervous system is part of the peripheral nervous system and has two branches, the sympathetic and the parasympathetic, which compete to send signals to the heart. Dr Kristen Holmes argues that how well this system toggles between activation and calm determines how we handle stress, recover, and sleep.
Holmes highlights morning light as one of four simple, free behaviours tested across 39,000 people that support better sleep and recovery. The conversation links light timing to the circadian clock and melatonin, which signal to the body when it is day and night.
Holmes points to a December 2025 opinion piece that connects common aging hallmarks, including telomere attrition, genomic instability, mitochondrial dysfunction and inflammation, to a disregulated autonomic nervous system. She presents this as a reading of that literature rather than settled fact.
Dr Rangan Chatterjee and Holmes describe these habits as ways of soothing internal discomfort, often downstream of how we feel about our lives. Holmes suggests treating the tension as a signal about something that matters, getting curious about it, and deciding whether action is needed.
Holmes argues that lasting change starts with understanding yourself and self-compassion rather than self-criticism. She frames the work around identity: deciding who you want to be and what you need to engage in to live that out.
In the closing part of the conversation, Holmes and Chatterjee discuss joy as something that can be cultivated through practices like loving-kindness and journaling, rather than a fleeting feeling pursued through constant effort. The episode treats it as part of living with an open heart and in line with your values.

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