Love Your Enemies: Finding Gracein Conflict and Darkness

Sep 6, 2026

6 min read

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When the darkness arrives—not as metaphor but as felt presence—the instinct is to close down, to protect yourself by turning inward. This is the opening wisdom of a recent Sunday Service, where Russell Brand and his wife Laura sit together in the aftermath of their show reaching more viewers, only to discover that visibility has brought not just affection but active antagonism. The question they grapple with is not new to the spiritual life, but it arrives with particular urgency when your face is being discussed in hostile comment threads by strangers who feel they have a stake in your damnation.

The episode begins not with this darkness, but with Romans 12:1–2, a text about transformation through the renewing of the mind. "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your true and proper worship to not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Brand weaves this apostolic instruction through layers of philosophy—Marcus Aurelius, Buddhist teaching, quantum mechanics, Eckhart Tolle—to build a single coherent idea: that spiritual practice means dying to the ego moment by moment and allowing something larger to be reborn in its place. This is not metaphorical death. It is a practice of radical presence that antecedes every moment's demand.

The Weight of Being Seen

What emerges in the conversation with Laura is the particular ache of spiritual public life: as the show gains reach, so too does the reach of those who actively dislike the work. This is the ordinary logic of attention online, but it lands differently when you are trying to hold a practice of love. Laura speaks candidly about the heaviness this creates, the difficulty of "leaning into prayer" when the environment feels hostile, and the way certain insecurities surface that might otherwise remain dormant. Brand is careful here to name what is actually happening—not vanity, not attention-seeking, but the real psychological weight of being widely misunderstood or directly maligned.

The teaching he extracts from this moment is precise: people who understand media dynamics know that conflict is profitable. Brand cites Andrew Tate as someone who has mastered this calculus—that you don't need everyone to like you, only enough people to engage with you through opposition. The mechanism is simple: naming a controversial figure, a geopolitical conflict, a divisive opinion creates a resonance field. If you are not actively transformed by the renewing of your mind, as Paul puts it, you become an "unwitting participant" in that dynamic. You are being moved by forces you did not choose to activate.

This is the trap. Visibility exposes you not just to love but to the machinery of polarization. And if you are attempting to live a spiritual life—one oriented toward love and transformation—you are walking directly into the place where that machinery is most efficient at breaking you into factions of yourself.

What Does Armor Against Judgment Look Like?

Laura's response is to speak of prayer as an armor—a practice of covering yourself so that you are not under the spell of hostile speech cast upon you. This is the inverse of what most people do with negative comments: they read them, internalize them, argue against them, or try to prove them wrong. What she describes instead is a spiritual immune system, activated through contemplative practice, that allows hostile speech to pass over rather than through you.

Brand connects this to the actual content of the show's growth. As reach expands, so does darkness—not because the world has suddenly become worse, but because visibility makes the existing darkness more apparent. This is not pessimism but clarity. The invitation, then, is not to retreat from that darkness but to meet it with a particular kind of love. Not sentimental love, not the kind that says "everyone is beautiful." Something harder: a love that can hold both the reality of opposition and the commitment to transformation, without being destroyed by either.

Job's Tree and the Architecture of Hope

The episode turns then to a local environmental controversy—trees being cut down near where they live. This is not abstracted grief; it is specific, embodied loss. Brand and Laura discuss how to hold love and hope in the face of destruction, particularly environmental destruction that seems both minor (a few trees) and emblematic (humanity's careless relationship to living systems). Brand offers Job 14:7, a verse about renewal: if a tree is cut down, it will sprout again. There is a biblical architecture here of cyclical hope—not the erasure of loss, but the stubborn insistence that growth can return.

This connects back to the earlier teaching about dying to self and being reborn. The natural world operates in this rhythm: death, decomposition, regeneration. Spiritual practice asks humans to align themselves with that rhythm deliberately, consciously, rather than be swept through it reactively. To grieve the trees without losing hope. To face opposition without losing love. To be visible without being fragmented.

Listener Testimony and the Architecture of Spiritual Community

The episode includes a voice message from a listener who speaks to experiencing something beyond the ordinary—goosebumps, intuitive connection, a sense of spiritual presence moving through the show. Brand's response is to validate this without claiming to explain it. "No one knows what it's like to be you," he says. "I don't know what it's like to be you. So if you're having this experience, that's your truth, and that's beautiful." This is the opposite of religious gatekeeping. It opens the door to the listener's own direct experience while holding a space where that experience can be named and witnessed.

What becomes clear is that the function of Sunday Service is not to provide answers but to create a container where people can hold their own questions and experiences more consciously. It is, in that sense, an act of love—not in spite of the darkness that accompanies visibility, but precisely in meeting that darkness with the offer of community and conscious attention.

Where to go from here

The practical teaching here is simple but demanding: cultivate the capacity to be loved and hated simultaneously without being moved by either. This is not indifference. It is alignment with something larger than the opinions of strangers. When you notice yourself being pulled into conflict—by a name, an idea, a news story—pause and ask: Am I being transformed by the renewing of my mind right now, or am I participating in a machine designed to fragment me? Pray armor around yourself. Not to shield you from the world, but to connect you to something in you that is not subject to the world's judgment. Die to yourself moment by moment, and notice what wants to be born in that emptiness. The trees will teach you: growth returns. Hope is not a luxury. It is the default architecture of a living world.

Transcript

[0:00] It's one camera on the closeup

[0:04] and

[0:18] you're a Part time lover and

[0:20] [music and singing] fulltime friend. The

[0:22] monkey on your back is the latest trend.

[0:25] I don't see what anyone can see in

[0:28] anyone else.

[0:32] >> I'll kiss [music] you on the brain in

[0:33] the shadow of the train. Kiss you all

[0:36] stared. My body swinging [music] from

[0:38] side to side. I don't see what anyone

[0:40] can see in anyone else.

[0:45] Here is the [music] church and here is

[0:47] the steeple

[0:49] cute [music] ugly

[0:58] but

[1:01] >> hello and welcome to Sunday service with

[1:03] the brands

[1:07] [music]

[1:13] I've got me right up today, haven't I?

[1:16] Oh,

[1:18] >> Romans 12.

[1:21] Therefore, I urge you, brothers and

[1:23] sisters, in view of God's mercy, to

[1:25] offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,

[1:29] holy and pleasing to God.

[1:32] This is your true and proper worship to

[1:36] not conform to the pattern of this

[1:38] world, but be transformed by the

[1:41] renewing of your mind. Then you will be

[1:45] able to test and approve what God's will

[1:47] is. His good and pleasing, perfect will.

[1:50] Oh Lord God, [gasps]

[1:53] today as you begin this Sunday service,

[1:56] man and wife,

[1:59] Laura and Russell, two people moving

[2:04] through time and space at very least.

[2:08] Lord, I ask that we may know the truth

[2:12] of this verse. A living

[2:16] sacrifice.

[2:18] Offer your bodies as a living sacrifice.

[2:21] This is the proper worship. Show us the

[2:24] canosis in this. The emptying out of

[2:26] self, Lord, that we may be present as

[2:29] vessels for your [sighs]

[2:32] perfect will.

[2:34] Our Lord, show us in this the wisdom of

[2:38] the Stoic Marcus Aurelius. For surely if

[2:40] your St. Paul could site

[2:45] nonscriptural

[2:47] sources in his own scriptural tendency,

[2:51] why would we hold ourselves to a

[2:53] standard that the Bible itself does not

[2:54] hold itself to?

[2:57] Marcus Aurelia says, "You are already

[2:59] dead. Now live the rest of your life

[3:02] properly." The Buddhists say, "Put down

[3:06] the corpse. Don't pick up the corpse.

[3:09] Don't pick up the corpse. You're already

[3:11] dead." And St. Paul says,

[3:14] "I die on the cross with Christ Jesus,

[3:17] and it's Christ that's reborn in me."

[3:19] And Schrodinger says, "The cat is both

[3:22] alive and dead. It's in a super state of

[3:25] potentiality, collapsing only obs under

[3:28] observation into a definitive and

[3:30] determinate state." And Heisenberg says

[3:34] that at the first sip of the glass of

[3:37] quantum physics, one becomes an atheist.

[3:40] But there at the bottom of the glass,

[3:42] one finds God. Oh Lord. Oh Lord, we ask

[3:47] not to conform to the pattern of this

[3:49] world, but to be transformed by the

[3:51] renewing of this mind. That we die

[3:54] moment by moment to ourselves and are

[3:56] reborn again. that the Russell that

[3:58] began this prayer is already dead and a

[4:01] new man is born that may serve you

[4:04] because you Lord Jesus Christ are

[4:06] spontaneous and everpresent transcendent

[4:09] of all self not the God of culture.

[4:12] Culture that is not alive cannot be of

[4:15] you. Living God, you are the living God.

[4:19] Upon this rock I will build my church.

[4:21] You are the living God. Amen. Amen.

[4:24] >> Amen.

[4:26] How are you, darling? You're all right.

[4:27] You feel okay?

[4:29] >> Yes, I'm a little tired. Um, and I

[4:32] suppose, uh, [gasps]

[4:34] >> I think there's been a little heaviness

[4:36] recently, hasn't there, Russell? For us,

[4:38] just in the dark, like there's been a

[4:40] little bit of battle in the dark.

[4:42] [laughter]

[4:44] >> There's heaviness and darkness, of

[4:46] course. Yes,

[4:46] >> there could be. Of course, there could

[4:48] be, you know, but but actually, I think

[4:50] we mentioned it last week, but there's

[4:52] also been that

[4:52] >> have a sip of a delicious drink.

[4:54] >> Yeah. have a have a sip of a delicious

[4:55] drink.

[4:56] >> Um yeah, the [clears throat] heaviness

[4:58] sometimes is is difficult to actually

[5:01] lean in. I think it's quite difficult to

[5:03] lean into prayer. Um but it's obviously

[5:06] it's ne necessary because I realized the

[5:08] other day that when I do find things too

[5:11] overwhelming, I do shut down.

[5:13] >> And so I find it difficult uh to connect

[5:17] with the hope and faithfulness of a

[5:19] situation. And um and then like weirdly

[5:23] quite a lot of felt kind of some

[5:25] insecurities maybe just a little bit.

[5:28] Thankfully I'm with you and you actually

[5:30] fill me with like a lot of praise and I

[5:35] I know in I know that the way that I am

[5:39] in your eyes I do it feels I feel good.

[5:43] I feel good. And just before we, you

[5:46] know, come with what you said, you know,

[5:48] I I, you know, I don't often think about

[5:51] um you're always extremely complimentary

[5:53] from right from the level of like if I'm

[5:55] wearing something or the way I look and

[5:57] you tell me I'm beautiful and I feel

[6:00] like I I feel mostly like I don't think

[6:02] much about the way I look.

[6:04] >> But recently uh I suppose some things

[6:07] have come up for me. So I think when I

[6:09] say I'm experiencing insecurity

[6:12] that's what has been presenting

[6:14] >> I suppose so that this is not cryptic

[6:18] >> there is um the

[6:21] like comments like we had like we notice

[6:23] if the show gets like normally in the

[6:25] world of social media if your show gets

[6:27] watched a lot

[6:28] >> it means that it's probably been watched

[6:30] by people that don't like you like

[6:33] that's the dynamic sort of online um

[6:37] >> people that know how to operate in these

[6:39] spaces

[6:41] which are still somewhat protein

[6:44] in coet and forming

[6:46] >> know that there's a benefit in conflict.

[6:48] Isn't that extraordinary?

[6:49] >> Yeah.

[6:50] >> Like um whatever you think of Andrew

[6:52] Tate and I I have access to information

[6:55] that not everyone would have access to.

[6:58] He's a person that understands

[7:01] uh how media operates

[7:04] and he's famously said that you only

[7:07] need something like you know 40% of

[7:09] people to like you. I can't remember but

[7:10] it's almost like benefits to be involved

[7:13] in conflict.

[7:14] >> Yes.

[7:16] >> Now you yourself if you even when you

[7:18] hear me say the name Andrew Tate if that

[7:20] makes you have a particular reaction

[7:23] >> Yeah.

[7:23] >> you begin to participate in that

[7:26] dynamic. or if I say Islam or uh Israel

[7:30] or if I say whatever it is, it doesn't

[7:32] matter actually. If you start to if you

[7:34] start to form you if you're not being

[7:37] transformed by the renewing of your mind

[7:39] by like I've got this thing that I think

[7:41] about that then then you you um you are

[7:44] sort of an unwitting participant in

[7:47] precisely the dynamic that I described.

[7:49] So anyway, we noticed that um

[7:51] >> that there were like more uh views

[7:56] Like but we don't like blessedly Massie

[8:00] who produces this show gives us comments

[8:02] and like you know I've been in the game

[8:04] a while man I'm a battle warn weary old

[8:07] [ __ ] of a game so I don't care no more

[8:10] but you you are my lovely wife so like

[8:13] you know we don't experience negative

[8:14] comments I don't experience them and

[8:16] once you've been called you know falsely

[8:19] a rapist in public [laughter]

[8:22] okay where do you where do you go from

[8:24] here like so

[8:25] >> yeah old Russ has been toughened up. But

[8:27] what I want to say is that um you know

[8:31] like comments and stuff in the

[8:33] >> it was what it was was this is we we

[8:36] discussed this and actually this isn't

[8:37] meant to be you know a hark I'm feeling

[8:41] like I'm looking old or whatever

[8:44] actually it's it's to do with what it

[8:46] brings up and and one thing that just

[8:48] came up is this when you say or even if

[8:51] you say a name you can't help but have

[8:53] an and what it what it is is we're

[8:55] talking also obviously about opinion,

[8:58] right? So, we're not say one isn't

[9:00] saying you should all share an opinion.

[9:02] You should have different opinions.

[9:03] That's what makes for, you know, that's

[9:04] what makes for learning and developing

[9:06] and renewing because if you have

[9:07] different opinions, you can discuss and

[9:09] but it's the intention of it, right? So,

[9:12] one could think um like cuz what I'm

[9:15] saying is that we're not it's not like

[9:17] what you were saying about you mentioned

[9:18] Andrew Tate is of course yeah people are

[9:20] going to have opinions and then I

[9:22] suppose what it is is it's going to be

[9:23] op opinions like you say based on where

[9:25] they're getting their information and

[9:27] what they believe. So when it comes to

[9:29] something like comments which I also

[9:32] don't you know like to really indulge

[9:34] that negativity I see it almost like

[9:37] that it can this is what you have to do

[9:40] you have to almost pray and cover

[9:42] yourself in a protective guard an armor

[9:46] from even the idea that there's a

[9:48] comment about you that you can't that

[9:50] you don't feel under the spell of it

[9:51] like you've been like it's been cast

[9:53] upon you

[9:54] >> and so when I

[9:56] >> when I saw that this comment which

[9:59] actually I will read it and it's from

[10:01] and it's a lovely comment by the way

[10:02] it's @happycappy1

[10:05] the podcast must be growing as the

[10:07] darkness in the comments is started see

[10:10] it as a blessing though you're reaching

[10:12] people with your honest journey it's not

[10:15] uh saccharine saccharine saccharine

[10:18] >> false sweetness

[10:19] >> it feels authentic Catholic Protestant

[10:22] whatever siblings in Christ we all are

[10:24] love to you both and keep going I mean

[10:26] what a Beautiful, beautiful comment. Um,

[10:29] and actually it just gave us the and

[10:32] then the other the other one was from um

[10:35] at nanny mets. Hi, hi dear brands. Huge

[10:39] thank you for sharing your Sunday

[10:40] services with us. We pray for those who

[10:43] post unkind comments. Mr. Rogers would

[10:46] pray for them. Mentioned on the last

[10:48] show.

[10:49] >> Um, no doubt both of you remain

[10:51] faithfilled. We are in your corner

[10:53] always praying for you five and all your

[10:55] extended loved ones. Keep the faith. two

[10:56] really really beautiful examples

[10:58] >> but I suppose they in themselves

[10:59] indicate that there were negative points

[11:00] so you start to speculate what would

[11:02] they be and what does that and what does

[11:04] that do to you

[11:04] >> what does it it makes me immediately you

[11:06] know it can make me feel well sadness

[11:10] obviously sadness like I don't have a

[11:12] chance to u I don't know like I almost

[11:16] like I want to read them so in my mind I

[11:18] can start a battle of justification but

[11:21] I don't read them because I know that

[11:23] it's not coming from a good place it's

[11:25] not an opinion

[11:26] It's not an opinion with any weight.

[11:28] It's not like let's have a discussion

[11:30] about whether or not you should pray in

[11:32] that way. It's it's a it's not a

[11:34] discussion. It's not up for discussion

[11:36] because the person is one-sided. The

[11:38] person is in their own insula and

[11:41] solitary world because you wouldn't

[11:43] post. Nobody would go up to a stranger

[11:46] in the street and just say a mean thing.

[11:50] It's just but because we're behind

[11:52] because you're behind comments because

[11:54] it's because it's like we're a a couple

[11:56] that are online you it puts you up for

[11:59] this sort of vulnerability to this

[12:01] vulnerability. Um, my point being is

[12:04] that I really am trying to imagine

[12:09] like really trying to just like fill my

[12:12] heart with a kind of a love towards even

[12:16] the idea of a negative comment so that I

[12:19] can

[12:19] >> how are you going to do that? by praying

[12:21] by praying to bless them but also I

[12:24] suppose knowing that if I am not

[12:27] accepted as myself who I am

[12:30] authentically when I'm here or when I'm

[12:32] with you um well does it matter does it

[12:36] matter to that individual person or does

[12:37] it matter that 10 people might see that

[12:39] and then think oh maybe she's or maybe

[12:41] that person's right or is it you know

[12:42] it's also quite self-centered so it

[12:44] brings that up as well

[12:45] >> good now um it it depends what you're

[12:48] interested in if you are actually

[12:50] interested interested in power then it

[12:52] becomes relevant right

[12:53] >> because if you're interested in power

[12:54] the coagulation and accumulation of a

[12:57] particular perspective becomes a force

[12:59] and an energy for example if everyone's

[13:01] willing to vote a certain way or concede

[13:03] to a certain impression

[13:04] >> then it matters what opinions are

[13:07] >> if you believe that power is not

[13:11] ultimately determined by activity on

[13:13] this in this realm then it becomes less

[13:16] relevant but you'll still be affected by

[13:18] it in the same way that if there's a

[13:19] particular

[13:20] charge in the air or if a particular

[13:22] stimulant is applied to your body, you

[13:25] will feel it. You will feel it. If

[13:27] someone steps on your toe, you will feel

[13:30] it. You'll respond to different flavors

[13:32] on your taste bud.

[13:33] >> However, though, that's, you know, if

[13:35] you're interested in power, and I

[13:36] mentioned that only because uh social

[13:38] media spaces are interested in power and

[13:41] operate on the basis of power. Indeed, I

[13:43] talked about this on the other show the

[13:44] other day and I used the example of

[13:45] that. What's the lady that's um appears

[13:48] perhaps as well what she did she

[13:52] >> Oh, Lindsay Clancy Clancy.

[13:53] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[13:54] >> So Lindsay Clancy like she that think

[13:57] now the culture is this way. An object

[13:59] gets thrown into the culture. You might

[14:01] call the October the 7th. You might call

[14:03] it Russell Brand. You might call it

[14:05] Lindsay Clancy. You might whatever the

[14:07] object, it doesn't matter. It's it's

[14:09] truly irrelevant. The object gets thrown

[14:11] into the pool. the collective pool of

[14:13] the culture. Now you might take a strong

[14:16] view Trump's a really good one to use

[14:18] because he's the biggest one I suppose.

[14:20] Um

[14:21] >> whether if you are like I adore Donald

[14:24] Trump because of XY Z or I loathe Trump

[14:27] because of ABC both of those polarities

[14:30] are equally good for the systems. And

[14:33] same for Lindsay Clancy or for Andrew

[14:36] Tate or for whomever, me, whoever.

[14:38] Because as long as you're trapped in a

[14:40] kind of a polarity uh you are conformed

[14:43] to the pattern of this world, you are

[14:45] not transformed by the renewing of your

[14:48] mind

[14:49] >> because the system wants conformity. The

[14:53] system does not want spontaneity. Our

[14:55] Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, he is the

[14:57] living water. He is spontaneous. He is

[14:59] responding continually. He's he is

[15:01] outside of time. He's the alpha, the

[15:03] omega. He is outside of all categories

[15:06] and conditions. That word category, what

[15:08] did I learn it comes from?

[15:11] >> Aristotle took it from uh a legal way of

[15:16] understanding things into a poetic way

[15:19] of understanding things. category uh and

[15:22] gosh I can't I'm I'm sort of slightly

[15:24] blanking on the important details now

[15:26] but my uh but you know on the etmology

[15:29] of the word category but like the more

[15:32] important point that I want to make here

[15:35] is beautifully under written by this

[15:39] lesson 351 course in miracles some of

[15:42] you will be familiar with it

[15:45] my sinless brother is my guide to peace

[15:49] >> my sinful brother is my guide to pain

[15:52] >> and which I choose to see I will behold.

[15:55] Now I want you to uh hold in your mind

[15:58] the comments right now like let's

[16:00] continue that thread of like you know

[16:01] someone writes a comment about another

[16:03] person or hate person X for reason why

[16:08] >> consider now in in I think the lexicon

[16:11] and vocabulary of course in miracles

[16:13] brother is akin to how the gospels and

[16:16] indeed all scripture uses the term

[16:18] neighbor i.e.

[16:20] the person that you're interacting with.

[16:21] The person that you're interacting with

[16:22] is not a gendered word.

[16:24] >> It's a human.

[16:25] >> Christ a human. Yeah.

[16:27] >> Is that right?

[16:28] >> Yeah. And maybe if you were to take it

[16:29] out into more um sort of Native American

[16:32] ideologies, they they use brother,

[16:35] water, sister, air, and all that. They

[16:38] beyond

[16:39] >> they start to even take Yeah. Like

[16:40] >> the thing the thing in that moment of

[16:42] the most importance,

[16:43] >> their proximity and your relationship

[16:45] when Mr. Rogers says, "Do you know

[16:46] what's the most important thing to me

[16:48] now, Lloyd Vogel? You are because I'm

[16:50] talking to you now.

[16:51] >> Yes. Yes. That's right. That's exactly

[16:53] >> that's what you're my reality now.

[16:55] You're my reality now.

[16:56] >> Mhm.

[16:57] >> Uh we are part. You are my

[16:58] consciousness, my attention, my the gift

[17:00] of my consciousness. I focus on you. My

[17:03] So when it says, "My sinless brother is

[17:05] my guide to peace. My sinful brother is

[17:07] my guide to pain." It could be the same

[17:09] person much in the same way as two men

[17:11] will be working in a field. One man will

[17:13] be taken. You know, sort of

[17:15] rapture-wise. Part of you you must let

[17:17] go of. you must die.

[17:19] >> I I actually intended to talk about this

[17:21] in the first instance like in that uh

[17:24] film uh the prestige where Christopher

[17:27] Nolan at our work through a theatrical

[17:32] um imagining of Nikolai Tesla played by

[17:35] David Bowie God rest his soul how

[17:38] Schroinger's famous uh experiment might

[17:41] play out if such a thing were actually

[17:44] possible in reality. Hugh Jackman's

[17:46] protagonist gets Tesla to build a device

[17:49] where you can infinitely reproduce

[17:52] yourself. And it's a thought experiment

[17:53] that came out of like that those those

[17:55] various um from 1912 onwards experiments

[17:58] in and at least theoretical

[18:00] experimentations in the ideas around

[18:03] ideas in quantum physics that

[18:05] >> every time you make a decision another

[18:08] you might be born in an infinite number

[18:10] of universes. And I I myself see that as

[18:12] a kind of a rather ridiculous way of

[18:14] trying to keep things somehow material

[18:17] when material itself demonstrates

[18:19] something superraaterial. I.e. material

[18:23] the deeper you get into it doesn't

[18:25] conform to our understanding of what the

[18:27] physical world would be

[18:28] >> thing. Uh what was that film? I found it

[18:30] too jarring and couldn't keep up with it

[18:32] and we stopped watching it. That film

[18:33] where there's

[18:34] >> everywhere all the time. It's not as

[18:35] good as Matrix. That's what I can say.

[18:37] And it's but again, it's also it's

[18:39] trying to narrativize something in a

[18:41] childish way. In a childish way

[18:44] >> because what it really is

[18:46] >> is something that's simpler than that.

[18:49] >> Yeah.

[18:49] >> As Echart Tol says,

[18:51] >> and this is brilliant and it's very in

[18:53] touch in line with the Paul line idea

[18:56] that we began with. Be transformed by

[18:58] the renewing of your mind. Yeah. Echart

[19:00] tool says even if you're in a wheelchair

[19:02] for the rest of your life, you are not

[19:05] in a wheelchair for the rest of your

[19:07] life in this moment.

[19:09] >> No, that's very good.

[19:11] >> In this moment, you are sitting down.

[19:13] Even if you're in prison for the rest of

[19:15] your life,

[19:16] >> you are not in prison for the rest of

[19:18] your life.

[19:18] >> In this moment, in this moment, you are

[19:20] in a room. I can see a window and I

[19:22] remember watching. I mean, man, that's a

[19:24] what a com what a demand to make of your

[19:28] spirit. But really, it's only an

[19:29] absolute surrender. It's only by

[19:31] conforming to the pattern of this world

[19:33] that you start going, "Oh no, this

[19:34] happened to me as a child and then this

[19:36] happened and then that happened." And

[19:37] you sort of want to cling and you want

[19:39] to make a false idol. You want to make a

[19:42] god of this passing world of this

[19:44] passing world.

[19:46] >> So my sinless brother, if you think of

[19:48] any person, you at home and you too,

[19:51] Laura, you know, think of any

[19:52] individual. It could even be the person

[19:54] that leads a comment saying uh this is

[19:57] like I will imagine one. You've got no

[19:59] business saying a prayer. You've never

[20:00] even been Christian. I don't think you

[20:01] are properly Christian. And perhaps you

[20:03] should concentrate more on the matters

[20:04] go legal matters that your family are

[20:06] facing and and you look disgusting and I

[20:08] hate you. Right. [laughter] Right.

[20:10] >> So if we see that person as let's say

[20:13] call that person uh

[20:16] >> meanie.

[20:17] >> Yeah. Meanie mean.

[20:18] >> We can't give him an actual name because

[20:19] then we could be offended. Yeah. And we

[20:21] can't put that bestow that on the name.

[20:24] >> Oh no, we'd never do that.

[20:25] >> Meanie.

[20:26] >> So if Meanie is my sin, my sinless

[20:29] brother is my guide to peace. So if we

[20:31] were to see Meanie as sinless somehow,

[20:34] >> okay,

[20:34] >> that would guide us to peace. If we see

[20:37] Meanie as my sinful brother, that's our

[20:39] guide to pain. It would take us into

[20:41] pain. So somehow we have to look at this

[20:43] same uh metaphorical

[20:47] analogous or allegorical person as

[20:50] sinless because if we sin the sinful

[20:52] it's going to guide us into pain. A

[20:54] checklist this is the key point

[20:57] >> and which I choose to see I will behold.

[21:00] >> That's key

[21:01] >> which I choose to see I will behold. Now

[21:03] what's the difference between choose to

[21:05] see and behold? Once you behold

[21:07] something it's in the realm of your

[21:09] beingness. is in the realm of your

[21:11] beingness.

[21:12] >> Yeah. So

[21:14] >> because when you first read that I

[21:16] because you read it the other day and I

[21:18] truly

[21:19] >> at first I really sort of even when you

[21:20] read the whole thing I understood it to

[21:22] be

[21:23] >> yeah of course you've got you've got

[21:26] Meanie and you got Nicey two different

[21:29] people and you can go with Nice.

[21:33] Those these names are terrible, aren't

[21:35] they? Really putting a wire at the end

[21:37] or an I. Yeah. [laughter]

[21:39] >> Um but nicy um person B. Um it's not

[21:45] you're it's the same person and it's

[21:47] actually in our eyes. It's how we see

[21:51] them. It's not actually two different

[21:53] people and we're going off with that

[21:54] person.

[21:55] >> Indeed. Even if you wanted to fetishize

[21:57] the distinction and say, "Well, no,

[21:58] that's not actually true because Meanie

[22:00] is called um you know, Alex Blowfelt and

[22:03] lives in Murray Down Lane and Nicey is

[22:07] called uh Michelle uh Crowthornne and

[22:11] she lives in Surrey." Yeah. Right. If

[22:14] you wanted to see Mr. People, well,

[22:16] riddle me this. How do we deal with the

[22:19] um h uh physical cosmological reality

[22:23] that materialists and atheists believe

[22:24] that 13.8 8 billion years ago, all

[22:27] reality was compressed into a

[22:29] submolelecular particle along with

[22:31] unicorn. Not unicorns, they're not real

[22:33] actually, rainbows at some point,

[22:35] dinosaurs and kittens and love and

[22:38] thermonuclear dynamics, Saturn, Jupiter,

[22:41] the rules of quantum physics. All of

[22:44] those things, they're also not real,

[22:46] were packed into a submolecular particle

[22:49] and then all unfolded. So at some point

[22:52] even physically

[22:55] >> me and Nia are one thing. So my sinless

[22:58] brother is my guide to peace. My sinful

[23:00] brother is my guide to pain and I and

[23:02] which I choose to see I will behold. So

[23:05] we elect, we are part of uh if we choose

[23:10] to see it, if we choose to be to conform

[23:13] to the pattern of this world, you know,

[23:15] well, I actually think that's wrong. I

[23:16] think there are some things that are,

[23:18] you know, like you there is no objective

[23:21] flat thing that you can just agree to

[23:24] that's just like this is what I'm going

[23:25] to say. Nikki Gumball from the uh who

[23:27] did such wonderful work in establishing

[23:29] the alpha church says Christ removes the

[23:32] limited liability of the term neighbor

[23:36] when talking to the rich young ruler.

[23:39] >> Everyone is your neighbor.

[23:41] >> Everyone is your neighbor. And he also

[23:44] removes the li the limitation of what we

[23:46] should be willing to do to love and

[23:48] follow Christ. If there is something

[23:51] that you don't want to do in order to

[23:53] follow Christ, guess what?

[23:56] >> Yeah,

[23:56] >> that's the thing you've got to do. Well,

[23:58] I Well, I won't do that. It's very much

[24:00] I'd call it meatloaf Christianity. Um

[24:04] well, I'll do anything for Christ, but I

[24:06] won't do that. Whatever it is, you won't

[24:07] do. You better do that. I

[24:09] >> I like that you say there's one comment

[24:10] here actually because um for those that

[24:13] didn't join us last week, we talked

[24:14] about Mr. Rogers and someone at

[24:16] Elizabeth Hutton6153

[24:18] just off the back of what Russell said

[24:20] there about Nikki Gumble has said won't

[24:22] you be my neighbor? Isn't it cool he

[24:25] asked that and God called us to love our

[24:27] neighbor. Mr. Rogers really did love his

[24:30] neighbor. What a blessing he was and so

[24:32] are both of you. Thank you. Laura and

[24:34] Russell, thank you for being a blessing.

[24:36] Beth in Wonderland. Beth in Wonderland.

[24:37] >> Hey our friend.

[24:38] >> Hi Beth. Um so when you're saying what

[24:41] Nikki So uh I didn't even think about

[24:44] that. I didn't even think about the

[24:45] neighborly aspect from the Bible being

[24:48] applied there to like everybody. Won't

[24:49] you be my neighbor? Any single person

[24:51] that watches that show and obviously

[24:53] relating it there to what Nikki Gumbles

[24:55] said.

[24:55] >> Mr. Rogers simplifies it to something

[24:57] manageable and he really does and

[24:59] allegorical. It's just like one little

[25:02] neighborhood occupied by puppets that's

[25:04] got the same entity behind it. Christ.

[25:06] >> He will come and live with you and in

[25:08] you

[25:09] >> if you invite him. But you have to

[25:11] attune to the correct frequency. And

[25:14] attuning to the correct frequency means

[25:15] the one thing you won't let go of faith.

[25:18] No, I need to understand it. I need to

[25:20] understand it. Oh, you think you're

[25:21] going to understand it, do you? Yeah.

[25:22] You're going to understand it with your

[25:24] fiddlesticks pin brain. How could you

[25:26] possibly How could you possibly? In the

[25:28] same way that however much time I spend

[25:30] trying to explain the internet to my

[25:32] cat, it's never going to understand what

[25:34] I don't understand why the internet

[25:36] worked. [laughter] I don't understand

[25:38] anything actually. You live in blind

[25:41] faith.

[25:42] >> Yes. And and one thing I want to bring

[25:43] back about the the kind of comment thing

[25:45] or insecurity is that you know really

[25:49] >> ultimately how can we be how can we

[25:53] really truly be even offended when it's

[25:57] not in the eyes of God. It's not

[25:59] somebody that really truly knows us. It

[26:01] doesn't they don't know us. They don't

[26:02] know our soul. It's something that's

[26:04] just an outward expression of a of an

[26:06] anger within themselves.

[26:08] >> Judgment is in Christianity. the concept

[26:10] of final judgment that you are going to

[26:12] be judged also a temporality and a

[26:15] spatiality are in it i.e

[26:17] the ultimately this is happening beyond

[26:19] time and space like Michael Beck

[26:21] brilliantly said at Agar Church when

[26:23] Kobe Bryant died and the congregation

[26:26] takes a sharp intake of breath this

[26:28] being a Sunday by um as I recall Michael

[26:30] Beck with telling me

[26:32] >> he says to the congregation because he's

[26:34] in LA so there's a lot of like LA Lakers

[26:36] type people

[26:38] >> and uh like fans of that basketball team

[26:40] and a lot of African-Americans as it

[26:42] turns out if that consolidates it or

[26:44] concentrates it more I don't know you

[26:45] tell me uh like as there's a big

[26:47] reaction and and Michael Beckway says

[26:50] before you go where you're going like

[26:53] having your own reaction about Kobe

[26:55] Bryant dying who you probably don't know

[26:57] and he's just someone you care about cuz

[26:59] he's brilliant.

[27:00] >> Yeah, exactly. Goes in this moment who

[27:03] he has a wife and surviving children

[27:06] that are feeling reality. Now in this

[27:09] moment direct your attention and your

[27:10] love to them

[27:12] >> because in he says this in the final

[27:15] analysis all things are non-local and

[27:17] they will feel it

[27:18] >> like there's a deeper reality like Mr.

[27:20] Roger's neighborhood there. It's a sort

[27:22] of obviously a metaphor, but

[27:24] everything's a metaphor. Language is a

[27:26] metaphor. Everything you can't like in

[27:29] the end. What when does it become

[27:31] essential and irreducible?

[27:33] >> Um when when you say that and you say

[27:35] that every everyone will feel it. If

[27:37] you're praying towards the family and

[27:39] you're pray if you get everybody

[27:40] together and it's that feeling that it's

[27:42] uh cultivating that real positive um

[27:45] prayer towards that it's going to fill

[27:47] them and it's going to it's going to

[27:48] affect them on some level. uh I think

[27:51] about the idea or I thought about the

[27:52] idea of there's that meditate I remember

[27:54] there was that lady who wrote that good

[27:55] book on loving kindness I can't remember

[27:57] exactly um it was a meditation book

[27:59] actually uh and it was on the idea of

[28:02] the the affir affirming through

[28:04] meditation just like bringing loving

[28:06] kindness into the the what your output

[28:10] right and then I was imagining um

[28:12] >> the heart the heart and I was thinking

[28:15] of how

[28:16] >> your heart can what what they what one

[28:18] might say I I've hardened. My heart has

[28:20] hardened over time. I've had to do these

[28:23] things. I've put up with this stuff. But

[28:25] what we want is we want a the softening

[28:28] of the heart. We want the softening of

[28:30] the heart. And this is just when I'm

[28:32] just thinking about the way we speak,

[28:33] you know, because sometimes I might

[28:34] pray, you know,

[28:36] >> pray to, you know, you might say, let's

[28:39] call them enemies, if you will. You want

[28:41] to pray love towards enemies and

[28:44] >> specifically. Exactly. Right. Love your

[28:46] enemies. Love your enemies. Love your

[28:47] enemies. And you what you're praying for

[28:49] is you also are praying for sort of a

[28:51] softness of heart but that we don't want

[28:53] with the other side of a softness you

[28:55] would the idea might be fragility or the

[28:58] softness might imply

[29:00] uh weakness but it's not right

[29:03] >> he says I am the truth the life and the

[29:05] way and you're praying for the truth

[29:08] >> like the truth is that even the person

[29:10] that's saying the most awful thing about

[29:13] you imaginable

[29:14] >> the truth is that person is a beloved

[29:18] child of God

[29:19] >> and that we were refuse

[29:22] >> to enter into the illusion even an

[29:24] illusion that they think they're in

[29:25] themselves

[29:26] >> now if we like so we see them in love we

[29:29] see them in golden light beloved

[29:31] absolutely beloved and they will crack

[29:34] open that truth will appear in them I've

[29:36] seen this happen you know before even

[29:37] coming to the lord I remember a moment

[29:39] with my dad who at times I've had a

[29:40] difficult relationship with radat swami

[29:42] known as the maharaj among those that

[29:44] follow him swami g two others I was on a

[29:47] film set. Yeah, I think Jay Shetty was

[29:49] there, man. I was making a little movie

[29:52] for Telly, I think. Five children. Thank

[29:54] God Michael Kane was in it. Otherwise,

[29:56] Lord Long Island we were in, weren't we?

[29:58] And Ronnie, my dad, God love him. I pray

[30:00] for you, Ronnie, was there

[30:02] >> and you know Jet J. Shetty prejetty from

[30:07] the he was in service of Radnat Swami

[30:09] that he was pretty devoted to him. So

[30:11] like we can certainly testify to his

[30:13] sincerity like anyone that's has a

[30:15] public profile people question him

[30:16] continually

[30:18] >> and Radnut there's this moment where

[30:19] like you know

[30:21] >> Radnut Swami like sort of looked in my

[30:23] dad's face and said something like you

[30:26] are a good man and I watched my dad's

[30:29] face change. I watched him sort of go

[30:31] like he undone something in my dad in

[30:34] that moment.

[30:35] >> He undone something. He reached

[30:37] something in him. this holy man,

[30:40] >> this holy man touched something in him.

[30:42] >> Yeah, that's it. It's it's Oh,

[30:45] >> so love your enemies means that because

[30:47] like it says, even as our Lord says,

[30:50] even the hookers and the tax collectors

[30:52] love your friends. You know, being nice

[30:54] to you is no different than cleaning my

[30:56] teeth. I live with you. I've got you. I

[30:58] need you to be all right. I need you to

[31:00] be all right. But can I love people that

[31:03] have been said untruthful things about

[31:05] me? Can I love people that have

[31:07] generated negative? Yes. The truth is I

[31:09] can when I'm in him. He is the truth,

[31:11] the life, and the way. When I'm with

[31:12] him, I can because with him you are in

[31:14] judgment. Even like, you know,

[31:16] whatever's happening to you,

[31:18] you're going to die. You're going to

[31:20] die. Everyone, what do you think? You

[31:21] keeping this stuff. You think you're

[31:23] keeping it. You think your children

[31:24] aren't going to grow up and eventually

[31:26] forget die, man. Isn't this like don't

[31:28] you? when when our girls were babies,

[31:30] you know, Mabes and Pegs, I remember

[31:33] like or maybe even Mabel. I remember

[31:35] having a lot of these realizations just

[31:37] like drive past the bus stops, the

[31:38] little UK, see like an old lady on her

[31:40] own at a bus stop. Think,

[31:42] >> oh, that's someone's baby daughter. And

[31:44] then I saw the future. I just saw, oh,

[31:47] my little Mabel, an old lady alone at a

[31:50] bus stop one day. The brilliant English

[31:52] writer Alan Bennett says the trends

[31:56] around names. He says, you know, when

[31:58] you go to an old folks home and they're

[31:59] all full of veras and muds like you you

[32:04] kind goes, but one day the old folks

[32:07] home will be full of Kelly's and Darren,

[32:10] you know, like you know, like he goes,

[32:12] perhaps the difference in the name

[32:13] prevents us from seeing that that's who

[32:15] we are. We are all one. We are all one

[32:18] in him as as St. John says uh in his

[32:24] gospel the words of our lord

[32:26] 15 I am the true vine and my father is

[32:30] the gardener. He cuts off every branch

[32:32] in me that bears no fruit while every

[32:34] branch think of this as think in terms

[32:35] of neurology. Think in terms of these

[32:38] are image systems. But what is

[32:40] consciousness? What is the living water?

[32:43] >> He cuts off every branch in me that

[32:45] bears no fruit. While every branch that

[32:47] does bear fruit he prunes. Ow. hurts to

[32:50] be pruned so that it will be even more

[32:52] fruitful.

[32:53] >> Yes,

[32:54] >> you are already clean because of the

[32:56] word I have spoken to you. Remain in me

[33:00] >> as I also remain in you.

[33:02] >> No branch can bear fruit by itself. It

[33:04] must remain in the vine. Neither can you

[33:06] bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am

[33:08] the vine. You are the branches. If you

[33:10] remain in me and I in you, you will bear

[33:12] much fruit. Apart from me, you can do

[33:14] nothing. If you do not remain in me, you

[33:17] are like a branch that's thrown away and

[33:18] withers. Such frages are picked up and

[33:20] thrown into the fire and burned.

[33:22] >> Do you know what's funny? I sent this uh

[33:24] text to somebody this morning cuz we

[33:26] were funnily enough.

[33:28] >> Tell me their name, their identity. Who

[33:30] are they?

[33:31] >> For my friend Erica.

[33:32] >> Friends now, e [laughter] I suppose you

[33:34] prefer that to me. You'll leave me for

[33:37] these friends.

[33:38] >> Funny you have those spikes of energy,

[33:40] aren't you? [laughter]

[33:41] >> Sometimes I think there needs to be some

[33:43] craziness.

[33:44] >> I know. Yeah. No, I know. I like it. Um

[33:46] what I was thinking about was the fact

[33:48] that uh in the area that we live in

[33:51] they've they've there's been this

[33:53] massive uh tree cutting situation.

[33:56] Right. So uh the company that do the

[33:59] electrical uh power lines for

[34:01] >> Chelco.

[34:02] >> Okay. Chelco. You're not afraid to

[34:04] mention a name are you on here? No.

[34:07] >> They own Southland.

[34:08] >> All right. So they own Southland.

[34:10] Southland are the tree cutters. They are

[34:12] utility land clearers. Right. owned by

[34:15] Chelco.

[34:15] >> Owned by Chelco,

[34:16] >> a not for-p profofit electricity

[34:17] company.

[34:18] >> Yes, that's correct. You

[34:19] >> But they do own Southland, which is not

[34:22] not for profofit.

[34:23] >> Exactly. But here we go. This is what

[34:24] we're going to say. So, they've done

[34:26] this they've done this what this big job

[34:29] of a lot a lot I would call it a

[34:32] catastrophic level of tree clearing.

[34:34] Even trees that weren't interfering with

[34:36] the lines,

[34:37] >> they're allowed to uh prune and cut

[34:40] branches in order to clear uh what they

[34:44] call easements, like areas that they

[34:46] have to access. Now,

[34:48] >> and we're talking 25 to 30 year old

[34:50] trees. We're talking beautiful crepe

[34:52] myrtles, things that had been people

[34:54] have planted themselves in their gardens

[34:56] that were kind of obviously they might

[34:58] say encroaching near the line. And of

[35:00] course, it's all to prevent in storms

[35:02] these things falling on power cables.

[35:04] And it was in many ways, in many ways

[35:07] unjustified, even though they felt like

[35:09] they were just doing their job.

[35:10] >> That's certainly your perspective.

[35:11] >> My perspective. My perspective

[35:13] >> as a friend of Jesse over there at uh at

[35:18] Chelco,

[35:19] >> you know, I know him to be a good man.

[35:21] >> Yes. I'm not actually I'm not even

[35:22] really talking about Jesse because I'm

[35:24] seeing it as just an independent

[35:26] >> sort of it's like it got into the cogs

[35:29] of corporation and the people cutting

[35:32] the trees down who are individually good

[35:35] people

[35:35] >> just doing their jobs

[35:36] >> they're doing their jobs so they go

[35:38] along with the machine and it's got an

[35:39] arm and it's got this churner and it

[35:41] just takes everything down and I'm I'm

[35:44] it took quite a large area of near where

[35:46] we live and a lot of people have been

[35:48] very upset and so I've been looking

[35:50] about this thinking about the Bible

[35:51] thinking about the uh com um com uh

[35:54] comments on the uh trees and nature and

[35:57] life. And of course, we won't even cut a

[35:59] branch down even if it's actually

[36:01] genuinely encroaching on the house. Like

[36:03] even in a way we don't we like to like

[36:05] see trees as much as possible. It's it's

[36:07] good. It's nature. It's birds. It's

[36:08] squirrels. It's all the stuff. And um

[36:11] but it's upset a lot of people. And

[36:12] we've managed to get slightly stuck into

[36:15] this probably as a sort of maybe a

[36:17] distraction from other things we've got

[36:19] going on. It's been enjoyable to some

[36:21] degree because Russell's been going out

[36:23] on the road like yeah all right and I'm

[36:26] I'm having to also prep him by like are

[36:28] you befriending these are you telling

[36:30] them that we don't agree with the tree

[36:32] cutting and then he's like yeah but I'm

[36:34] trying to see both perspectives and I'm

[36:35] trying to I I think we're never going to

[36:37] reach an agreement if we aren't peaceful

[36:39] about it and we don't try and meet meet

[36:41] some understanding and mutual and you're

[36:44] totally right. You're totally right. One

[36:46] thing I will say is that the ethos of

[36:48] Chelco is very much about the community

[36:52] being priority and the preservation of

[36:54] nature because they know how important

[36:56] it is. So to see that all just being

[36:58] like wiped with the with the with the

[37:01] idea of that ethos on their website is

[37:03] something. So I I sent a message to a

[37:05] friend.

[37:05] >> I just say the reason Oh yeah, go on.

[37:07] >> Yeah. Before you continue, the houses

[37:10] that all of us live in Yeah.

[37:13] >> were once,

[37:14] >> you know, they were trees. So yeah like

[37:16] so like I know

[37:18] >> so it's like really

[37:21] >> when we are saying we like the trees

[37:23] look let me put it in a more honest way

[37:25] that's non-judgmental when I'm not with

[37:27] God and that happens to me sometimes

[37:29] >> like I said to you my own crying son

[37:32] when I'm if I'm honest what I want is

[37:35] the noise to stop

[37:37] >> I'm like I lose my connection to

[37:40] >> what are you okay in there my darling

[37:42] are you okay in there my darling allow

[37:44] me to heal you. What can I do for you?

[37:46] Sometimes I'm just that noise. Make that

[37:49] noise go. It

[37:50] >> it's it's a it's I think most parents

[37:52] will agree. I mean, certainly I know a

[37:54] lot of people that in the car when their

[37:55] kids are fighting, they just have to

[37:57] zone out. You can't hear it anymore, you

[37:59] know. Um I think that's a normal

[38:01] parenting and I completely completely

[38:03] hear you. And I think uh what how does

[38:05] that relate to the trees? It relates to

[38:07] it because that's in sometimes when

[38:09] you're honest you're only your your true

[38:11] position is I have a personal attachment

[38:14] and I see that tree as part of me and

[38:16] part of what I want and then I'm going

[38:18] to retroengineer a moral argument around

[38:21] what I want

[38:22] >> rather than God you are all powerful

[38:25] wherever you put me

[38:27] >> I am there I trust you Lord you are king

[38:30] you are supreme I'll do what do what you

[38:33] want with me

[38:34] >> cuz I'm already dead We stand in front

[38:36] of your throne now. God, you judge us.

[38:39] You judge us. Some souls go this way,

[38:42] some souls go this way. That is your

[38:43] word.

[38:44] >> And I I want to be with you, God.

[38:46] >> Well, I think actually even in the case

[38:48] of what we've been talking about earlier

[38:49] on in the show today, uh the sermon, the

[38:52] service, it's uh we talked about loving

[38:56] kindness towards people even so even in

[38:58] areas of like contention where there's

[39:00] especially especially love your enemy.

[39:03] And I think uh I have seen obviously

[39:05] that the impulse and even my own impulse

[39:07] was to kind of go out and take the keys

[39:10] out their machines and start screaming

[39:12] at them. And then when you actually kind

[39:13] of come face to face, you see all of the

[39:16] things about them. You see their

[39:18] >> scars,

[39:18] >> scars, you see their

[39:20] >> beauty, you see their kindness, you see

[39:22] their struggle. Uh because it's not like

[39:24] that some of them don't seem to even

[39:25] want to be doing it. Um so uh but when

[39:28] we come back to what the point really

[39:30] the point is is that I for the first

[39:31] time I found this passage using uh AI

[39:35] because I said to AI tell me show me

[39:37] everything about trees from the Bible.

[39:39] This is the one that I liked. At least

[39:41] there is hope for a tree. If it's cut

[39:43] down it will sprout again and its new

[39:45] shoots will not fail. Job 14:7. And then

[39:48] in that I thought how could we know that

[39:52] even in this right if you I this is how

[39:54] I thought about it. If you cut or trim

[39:57] or prune a tree, and what's made me

[39:58] think of this is Russell, you said about

[40:00] pruning back from the um John 15. Yeah.

[40:05] >> Um if you prune a tree or cut a tree, we

[40:09] cannot even know yet what might grow

[40:13] right from underneath that. You don't

[40:15] know what the light will hit and

[40:17] cultivate.

[40:18] >> And what I said to my friend was, you

[40:20] know, how could we know? Now we're

[40:22] feeling frustrated and encroached upon

[40:25] and like there's been this sort of it

[40:27] was when it was when our friends said to

[40:29] us, you know, that's 25 30 year old

[40:31] trees. I actually genuinely feel like

[40:33] they're talking about a human, you know,

[40:35] like it feels to me like it's like, oh

[40:37] gosh, imagine that tree working hard

[40:40] >> like Obelisk or Obelisk from Asterisk

[40:43] and Obelisk.

[40:44] >> He likes trees.

[40:46] >> Oh yeah, I felt like that. I felt like

[40:47] that. more like uh Swampy, the British

[40:50] activist from the 2000s who became a

[40:53] celebrity, but he was like one of them

[40:55] guys that just gets in a tree and won't

[40:56] let them cut trees down. I love trees

[40:58] also.

[40:58] >> Yeah. But here's the point. So I said,

[41:00] you know, the like here's the thing.

[41:02] When you cut back a tree, when you

[41:04] remove a tree or whatever, the light the

[41:06] light of the sun directly directly

[41:09] penetrates that land. And I'm trying to

[41:12] now imagine that by that vast pruning um

[41:17] that we can cultivate something even

[41:19] more beautiful, even more of a of a

[41:21] perfect garden.

[41:22] >> Look at our own lives, my darling. Look

[41:24] at our lives. Look at our lives.

[41:25] >> Exactly.

[41:26] >> Now, in a sense, that's it. Like, you

[41:27] know, in the sort of Chinese folklore,

[41:30] there's that famous adage, you know, the

[41:33] man's son gets taken to war. Like,

[41:36] >> we don't know this actually.

[41:37] >> Oh, man. It's so long.

[41:39] Don't say it all now.

[41:41] >> Is that so? Kind of thing.

[41:43] >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[41:44] >> Oh it's it's good news that your kids

[41:46] got to you know is that yeah you know we

[41:49] don't bloody know basically. Now to your

[41:51] point of Joe Job 14.

[41:54] >> Uh now Job is a difficult book. Some say

[41:57] it's you know like it's an old old book.

[41:59] Mesopotamian may even predate

[42:03] other texts in a way that's sort of

[42:05] confusing. It begins with a battle

[42:06] between good and evil. It's difficult.

[42:08] One can speculate what the relationship

[42:09] is between Lucifer and God at this point

[42:11] and the energy and image system that is

[42:14] God, the source, the creator, the

[42:16] principle, the creator of all patterns,

[42:17] the infinite

[42:19] >> and and what we mean by Satan, Lucifer,

[42:22] the fallen one. Nice.

[42:23] >> Thank you.

[42:24] >> You like that?

[42:24] >> I love that. I love that the sun just

[42:27] broke through the clouds. I really do

[42:29] love that. So 14 he is talking Job is

[42:33] mortals born of woman are of a few days

[42:36] and full of trouble. They spring up like

[42:39] flowers and wither away like fleeting

[42:41] shadows. They do not endure. Do you fix

[42:44] your eyes on them? Do you read the

[42:46] comments? Do you care about the

[42:47] comments? I did that. Will you bring

[42:50] [laughter]

[42:50] >> She genuinely thought you were a reader.

[42:52] I had to

[42:52] >> just changing the Bible. Who knows what

[42:54] I might do as I as I get more confident.

[42:56] Um do you fix your eye on them? Will you

[42:59] bring them before you for judgment? Who

[43:01] can bring what is pure from the impure?

[43:04] No one.

[43:04] >> A person's days are determined. You have

[43:07] decreed the number of his months. So

[43:09] this is Job talking to God. Huh.

[43:11] >> And have set limits. He cannot exceed.

[43:14] So look away from him and let him alone.

[43:17] God. Job is lamenting. He's like, God,

[43:19] I'm having a bit of a hard time here.

[43:22] >> Please, will you let me go, man?

[43:24] >> Yes. Tilly has put in his time like a

[43:28] hired laborer. Oh, how beautiful that

[43:29] lang that that language gets there when

[43:31] you think of the prodigal, the prodigal

[43:32] son. I'll just go back and live with my

[43:34] father like a hired laborer man. And

[43:36] what did his father do? He runs to him

[43:39] and grabs him and gathers him up. At

[43:41] least [clears throat] there's hope for a

[43:42] tree. If it's cut down, it will sprout

[43:44] again. And its new shoots will not fail.

[43:47] Its roots may grow old in the ground and

[43:50] its stump die in the soil. Yet at the

[43:53] scent of water it will bud and put forth

[43:56] shoots like a plant, but a man dies and

[43:58] is laid low. He breathes his last and is

[44:02] no more as the water of a lake dries up

[44:05] or a river or a riverbed becomes parched

[44:08] and dry. So he lies down and does not

[44:11] rise. But who does rise? Who does rise?

[44:14] Till the heavens are no more. People

[44:16] will not awake or be roused from their

[44:18] sleep. So Job is yet another proto

[44:20] Christrist. And in his lamentation, he

[44:22] makes the appeal. He prepares

[44:26] >> and uh demonstrates the necessity for

[44:30] the divine incarnation for flesh to be

[44:34] divonized, sacrificed by Christ, by God

[44:37] coming in human form on the human

[44:39] bandwidth.

[44:40] >> If only you would hide me in the grave

[44:42] and conceal me till your anger has

[44:44] passed. Oh my god, that sort of

[44:46] beautiful preempting of the tomb and the

[44:49] three days between the death on the

[44:51] cross and the resurrection. If only you

[44:53] would set me a time and then remember

[44:55] me. If someone dies, will they live

[44:57] again? Question mark. All the days of my

[45:00] hard service, I will wait for my

[45:02] renewal. Renewing of your mind to come.

[45:04] If you will call and I will answer you,

[45:07] you will long for the creature your

[45:08] hands have made. Surely then you will

[45:10] count my steps but not keep track of my

[45:12] sin. We need to be forgiven. My offenses

[45:15] will be sealed up in a bag. You will

[45:17] cover over my sin. This is what Christ

[45:19] does. But as a mountain erodess and

[45:21] crumbles and as a rock is moved from its

[45:23] place, as water wears away, stones and

[45:26] torrents wash away the soil. So you

[45:29] destroy a person's hope. You overpower

[45:31] them once for all and they are gone. You

[45:34] change their countenance and send them

[45:35] away. If their children are honored,

[45:37] they do not know it. If their children

[45:38] are bought low, they do not see it.

[45:40] Mabel at the bus stop. They feel but the

[45:43] pain of their own bodies and mourn only

[45:46] for themselves. If you live in self,

[45:48] you're already dead. The wages of sin

[45:50] are death. And then uh Job's lament ends

[45:53] and one of his dopey mates gives him

[45:56] some sort of answer. But when I first

[45:57] read the Bible, I was trying to

[45:59] understand like because there's stuff in

[46:00] the Bible that's parody like the the

[46:03] commentary and interactions. It's very

[46:05] like a Greek play or something.

[46:07] >> Yeah.

[46:08] The things that Elephaz and all them say

[46:10] are parody. Like they give Job advice.

[46:13] Like you know when you're getting advice

[46:15] when you're in a serious situation like

[46:17] as TS Lewis would say, "No,

[46:20] >> that's not it at all. That's not it at

[46:22] all." Like when you're like, "Oh no, no

[46:25] one understands what I'm going through.

[46:27] No one understands." And that's what

[46:29] part of Job's anguish is the inability

[46:31] of those around him to identify with

[46:32] him. But people that are with Christ

[46:34] that know that we are of one vine, that

[46:36] we branch of the same vine, the comfort

[46:38] they can offer is sometimes. Look, I

[46:40] don't know what you're going through. I

[46:42] don't know what it's like to be you. I

[46:44] don't know what it's like to suffer your

[46:45] problem, but we are here and we are one

[46:46] and we know that God is real. He is

[46:48] transcendent. He's transcendent of this.

[46:51] And whatever it is you're afraid of and

[46:53] whatever it is you're feeling,

[46:55] >> he suffered all of this. You can be with

[46:58] him on that cross. You were with him on

[47:00] that cross. You can be with him in the

[47:03] resurrection. You are with him in the

[47:04] resurrection. The price is you get out

[47:07] of the illusion.

[47:09] >> That's right.

[47:09] >> And this new rain falls on the severed

[47:12] branches and the soil is enriched.

[47:15] >> You're right. And and thank you for

[47:17] working through that with me in this way

[47:19] because from the beginning of this

[47:20] podcast, I was I was probably I said to

[47:23] Russell before the show today like I

[47:25] feel sort of too tired. But I realized

[47:28] what the tiredness is is a sort of a

[47:32] feeling of not wanting to confront what

[47:34] I felt what I feel.

[47:36] >> That's so good that you know that.

[47:37] >> Yeah. Um we have a a message from

[47:40] somebody on that we've been sent on

[47:44] Instagram or something. I'm not sure but

[47:46] um we wanted to play it and answer

[47:48] apparently. It's a question but it is

[47:49] two minutes. What do you think?

[47:51] >> Well good luck getting two minutes of

[47:52] silence out of me. But Massie our

[47:54] producer has sent this. So, let's listen

[47:56] to this. And if you have a message for

[47:57] us, please uh why don't you send it to

[47:59] us on Instagram and we'll do our level

[48:00] best to help in the way that we're

[48:02] helping. Do we even know this person's

[48:03] name?

[48:04] >> Don't know the person's name.

[48:05] >> Guys, please tell us the person's name.

[48:07] So, if this is you, right, let's hear it

[48:08] then. Let's hold it to the microphone.

[48:10] >> All right, we ready.

[48:11] >> This is helping you with the brands

[48:17] >> team. Um,

[48:19] >> probably won't listen to this message,

[48:22] but it's okay. probably won't listen to

[48:24] his message. Probably are

[48:25] >> a very long time. For a number of years,

[48:28] I've watched your YouTube. Uh

[48:31] >> sounds a bit like your brother and my

[48:32] cousin.

[48:33] >> Gone over to Rumble and um and

[48:37] everywhere. And sometimes I watch,

[48:40] sometimes I don't. But

[48:42] >> what disloyal

[48:43] >> time like um I've watched you. I saw you

[48:48] turn to God, turn

[48:52] >> and

[48:52] >> turn to Jesus.

[48:53] >> It gave me a massive push

[48:55] >> in the right direction. And then I saw

[48:59] and I watched that

[49:00] >> and that was beautiful. And it really

[49:03] turned me to Jesus. And

[49:07] >> now I still have like um a problem with

[49:11] alcohol. It's okay. Like I'm dealing

[49:14] with it and I'm on the path. I started

[49:16] going to church every Sunday uh for the

[49:19] last

[49:20] >> It's good that you're going to church.

[49:21] It's not okay that you have a problem

[49:22] with alcohol. Not that I'm judging you.

[49:25] I'm loving you. Stop drinking one day at

[49:28] a time and get help. There are 12step

[49:30] fellowships available that have the word

[49:32] alcoholics in the name and are anonymous

[49:37] for people to attend and one day at a

[49:39] time you will get the support. You can't

[49:41] on your own do this. You need God, but

[49:43] you might not even know how to get God

[49:45] on your own.

[49:47] >> It's with my girlfriend this way, which

[49:48] is amazing. And on occasion, we prayed

[49:52] together in bed. That's beautiful. But

[49:56] >> um nobody talks about the question I'm

[50:00] going to ask and that is like sometimes

[50:03] when I pray I have goosebumps. The hairs

[50:07] on my arm arms and body and legs stand

[50:12] up and I really feel the Holy Spirit.

[50:17] Well, all right. I know you not finished

[50:19] the question, but that's God with you.

[50:20] today when me and my daughters stayed at

[50:23] a hotel spontaneously yesterday as a

[50:25] result of me attending an event

[50:27] connected to one of the groups that I

[50:30] attend in order to not drink or take

[50:32] drugs one day at a time. And a woman,

[50:36] her name was Whitney, hello Whitney,

[50:39] came up to me and she talked to me about

[50:42] our Lord Christ and she said, "Oh,

[50:44] whenever I get those goosebumps," and

[50:46] you love a goosebump, don't you? I think

[50:47] we talked about it on week two or three

[50:49] of the show.

[50:50] >> I mean, I don't want to word this

[50:52] >> calmly. I'm a goosebumper. Go on.

[50:55] >> I'd say you're almost a pedophile for

[50:56] goosebumps.

[50:59] >> I do get goosebumps probably more often

[51:01] than necessary.

[51:02] >> You're a bumper file. [laughter]

[51:04] >> You're after them goosebumps.

[51:06] >> But one thing when I did say that that

[51:08] week because I think I must have said I

[51:10] got goosebumps over I don't know like I

[51:12] don't know we were talking about I like

[51:14] Patrick sees or it was something random.

[51:17] It wasn't about God, was it? That week

[51:19] we It came up river dance. It was river

[51:22] dance or something. And yeah, go on.

[51:24] >> Well, because the goosebump is that

[51:27] >> consider the consider that consider this

[51:31] because it's pretty simple. But within

[51:33] you is an abyss. Just imagine that, a

[51:34] nothingness. And then outside of you, a

[51:36] nothingness. And these two nothingnesses

[51:39] are connected just by five fishing

[51:41] lines. That's all we've got. The sense

[51:43] of sight, the sense of smell, the sense

[51:45] of hearing. And you know, I'm sure

[51:46] there's some nuance to that, but when

[51:48] you feel something on your skin like

[51:50] that as a response to God, mate, at that

[51:52] moment,

[51:53] >> then that is a communion, a connection.

[51:56] And this is what this woman Whitney was

[51:58] talking to me about this morning, as we

[52:00] said, as I I discussed with her the idea

[52:03] that we are with Christ in all eternity,

[52:05] through all eternity. And even if you

[52:08] approach this not only from a secular

[52:09] but from a materialistic and atheistic

[52:11] perspective

[52:13] that if the way that we detect that the

[52:15] big bang was 13.8 billion years ago is

[52:18] by measuring particles and the rate of

[52:20] motion uh we could detect that 13.8

[52:23] billion years ago if you were to reverse

[52:24] the direction it would all have been

[52:26] some submolelecular particle etc etc.

[52:28] Yeah. Then all things were one. All

[52:31] things were one. M

[52:32] >> and as we always say no one knows what

[52:34] was happening on the Tuesday afternoon

[52:36] before that big bang and in that for a

[52:38] moment as in quantum entanglement

[52:41] in that moment there is no time or space

[52:44] do you feel him in you you know that you

[52:46] are with him you know that it's him

[52:48] talking to him all the time did you have

[52:50] something

[52:51] >> no I'm saying let's continue

[52:53] >> I am into it when I'm singing when I

[52:56] when I uh feel completely surrendered I

[53:02] No one talks about that. So, I would

[53:04] love for you to talk about how you feel

[53:07] God and if that's nor if that's a normal

[53:11] thing or if I'm just going mad. Um,

[53:15] and I don't know like

[53:17] >> I feel like I I know it's God. It's God.

[53:21] It happens when I pray and then come on

[53:25] talking and and it happens

[53:27] >> and that's incredible.

[53:30] And I just like

[53:33] nobody talks about it. The people I know

[53:36] that are kind of Christian, I say that

[53:38] to them, they're like, "Oh, it's

[53:39] amazing." [laughter] Like they don't

[53:41] actually say that happens.

[53:44] >> Is it a normal thing?

[53:46] Do people get that? Actually, anyway, if

[53:50] you can do something on that, that would

[53:52] be great. Gold, love your work, love the

[53:55] team, all good vibes, and and keep doing

[53:58] what you're doing, guys. It's it's

[54:00] inspiring and amazing and it's brought

[54:02] me brought me much closer to God than I

[54:05] ever thought I would be.

[54:07] >> What could be better than to hear that

[54:09] from somebody? What a beautiful thing to

[54:11] say.

[54:11] >> They making me get goosebumps and

[54:13] welling welling arc.

[54:14] >> I got tears. I got goosebumps. I think I

[54:16] felt a stirring.

[54:17] >> I hope no. [laughter]

[54:19] >> Please.

[54:20] >> Well, listen. This is what I think about

[54:21] that, mate. Yeah, people do feel that.

[54:22] That's feel that's the Holy Spirit. I

[54:24] mean, when I think of some of the

[54:25] teachers and the people that I prayed

[54:26] with, they like that. A lot of them are

[54:27] like, "Look, look." They're always doing

[54:28] stuff like that to me. So,

[54:29] >> I mean, we should notice, we should

[54:31] focus on that.

[54:32] >> Pay attention to it.

[54:32] >> Yeah, we should because I know I get

[54:35] goosebumps and I'm now just thinking

[54:37] it's almost an inconvenience.

[54:40] No, just like ow. We like almost like

[54:42] it's a joke, but actually I probably

[54:44] overlook it. I get it. I often get it.

[54:46] And it's spirit. It's holy spirit.

[54:49] >> Is it?

[54:50] >> I think so. My darling, your guess is as

[54:52] good as mine. I mean um but what I would

[54:54] say is conform not to the patterns of

[54:57] this world but be transformed by the

[54:58] renewing of your mind. I you have access

[55:00] to eternity and it's coming through you

[55:02] and you're feeling it and the old you is

[55:04] dying and moving away and the Lord will

[55:06] finish the work that he started in us.

[55:08] >> Also you

[55:09] >> thank you for those that high praise.

[55:11] This is what we're here to do. We're

[55:12] here to bring one another closer to God

[55:14] and to walk together.

[55:15] >> You sound like a very beautiful person.

[55:17] >> I thought you sounded like a perve.

[55:20] You sound like a very very beautiful

[55:22] person when you're

[55:22] >> sing handed that message to the police

[55:24] [laughter]

[55:25] [gasps]

[55:26] >> when you're um I like the idea that

[55:28] you're even, you know, that you're

[55:29] speaking to God in the car and you're

[55:31] singing and it's that moment. Yeah.

[55:34] >> What a beautiful message. Thank you so

[55:36] much. Perhaps Massie will add add the

[55:38] name of the person, the first name of

[55:40] the person or perhaps not. Maybe the

[55:41] person will just hear it and

[55:43] >> mysterious

[55:44] >> remains mysterious.

[55:45] >> Part of the mystery that makes the skin

[55:47] tremble.

[55:48] >> Yes, that's right. That's I do want to

[55:50] wrap up.

[55:50] >> Okay. But then let me say if you have

[55:53] any inquiries or questions uh send it to

[55:55] the link below and we will do those

[55:58] every week now. And what I want to say

[56:01] also is remember my book How to Become a

[56:03] Christian in Seven Days is available

[56:04] there. Remember, we're not going to make

[56:05] no money out of it. If it makes any

[56:07] money, we're going to

[56:08] >> do something good with it.

[56:10] >> And uh it's free. There's an audio book

[56:12] if you want it. Link link link. There

[56:14] are those there are those links. Um

[56:16] perfect.

[56:17] >> And what do you want to press out? Am I

[56:18] praying?

[56:19] >> Why would you not?

[56:20] >> Okay. Okay.

[56:22] >> I'll get on my knees where I belong.

[56:24] >> Okay.

[56:28] >> Dear God.

[56:30] Dear God,

[56:32] thank you for being with us here today.

[56:35] God, I know I know you're here.

[56:39] It's it's it's in the richness even of

[56:42] this natural experience whether it's

[56:44] rain or if it's sunlight or if it's

[56:47] >> that charming beautiful message from the

[56:50] unknown person who knows who they are

[56:52] they know who they are. Thank you. Thank

[56:54] you for bringing this to us today so

[56:58] that we could work with the experiences

[57:00] of our week and our feelings and you

[57:02] know without shame bring forth the

[57:07] insecurities and and the the fears and

[57:12] the

[57:14] questions we have without the fear of

[57:16] embarrassment or the feeling that we

[57:18] shouldn't be asking it but with the

[57:19] total confidence and comfort that this

[57:21] is a good a good place a good place for

[57:24] that. And thank you, God, for that

[57:26] provision.

[57:28] Thank you. Bless the people that have

[57:32] left all types of comments. God, may

[57:35] their hearts be filled with love and

[57:39] may they find what they are looking for

[57:40] in this life, which is you ultimately.

[57:44] >> They might not know it, but show

[57:46] yourself to them.

[57:47] >> Oh yes.

[57:49] >> Thank you, God, for today, for this

[57:51] Sunday service.

[57:54] And thank you for my husband and my my

[57:56] family, my children.

[57:58] I love very much. I love you, God. Thank

[58:02] you. Amen.

[58:04] >> Amen. Thank you, God, for letting me be

[58:06] married to Laura. Thank you for choosing

[58:08] me for her and her for me. What a great

[58:11] blessing. Thank you for all the people

[58:13] that work on this podcast. I bet that

[58:14] Nikki gave that to Nassie, that message.

[58:17] Pray for that young man to feel more and

[58:18] more of God and to be free from anything

[58:20] that torments him. And I reiterate

[58:23] Laura's prayer. Anyone who wishes harm

[58:26] to us or wishes or anyone who is hurt,

[58:29] who has been hurt, our Lord, we pray for

[58:31] deep revelation and the deep presence of

[58:34] God. We pray for your justice and your

[58:37] truth and your wisdom and your life and

[58:39] your way because without you there ain't

[58:40] no truth. There ain't no justice. There

[58:42] ain't no life. There ain't no wisdom

[58:44] without you, Lord. So thank you, Father,

[58:46] for the bringing of your kingdom.

[59:01] >> [sighs and gasps]

[59:02] >> We pray in your holy name, heavenly

[59:04] father. Amen.

[59:06] >> Amen.

[59:06] >> Praise Jesus.

[59:07] >> Praise Jesus.

[59:08] >> Oh Jesus.

[59:10] >> Is that you speaking in tongues?

[59:12] >> Oh Russ. Oh Russ.

[59:15] >> Cuz sometimes that's surprising to me.

[59:17] >> Yeah, I know. No, I'm a surprising guy.

[59:22] >> My body swinging from side to side. I

[59:24] don't see what anyone can see

[59:26] >> for you, Laura.

[59:27] >> Thank you.

[59:38] >> [music]

AuthorRussell Brand

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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

How do you pray love for people who actively oppose or criticize you?

Rather than trying to change their opinion or defend yourself, the teaching is to cultivate what Laura calls "spiritual armor" through prayer—a practice that allows hostile speech to pass over rather than through you. This is about connecting to something in yourself that is not subject to others' judgment, not about forcing an emotional response you don't feel.

Why does increased visibility often bring more negative attention?

According to the discussion, people who understand media dynamics know that conflict is profitable and profitable for engagement. As your reach expands, you become visible not just to people who resonate with you but to those who benefit from opposition. Recognizing this mechanism is the first step to not being unconsciously moved by it.

What does it mean to be 'transformed by the renewing of your mind'?

This is Paul's instruction to die to your ego moment by moment and allow something larger—what Brand calls 'the living God'—to be reborn through you. It's a practice of radical presence where you're not being moved by external polarization but by an internal commitment to continuous transformation.

How do you hold hope when facing environmental destruction or loss?

Job 14:7 offers an architecture of cyclical hope: if a tree is cut down, it will sprout again. The teaching is to grieve what is genuinely lost while maintaining faith in the capacity for regeneration. This mirrors spiritual practice itself—dying and being reborn as an ongoing rhythm.

How does social media conflict actually work spiritually?

Naming a controversial figure, opinion, or conflict creates a resonance field that moves people reactively unless they're actively practicing transformation. If you're not consciously renewing your mind, you become an 'unwitting participant' in a machinery designed to fragment you into factions.

What is the difference between spiritual love and sentimental love?

Sentimental love says everyone is beautiful and there are no real oppositions. Spiritual love—as taught here—can hold both the reality of opposition and the commitment to transformation without being destroyed by either. It's a harder, more grounded form of love.