Transcript
[0:28] [snorts]
[0:35] >> Okay. Nice to
[0:37] >> [snorts]
[0:37] >> see some people here. You've braved the
[0:39] You've braved the rain. That's very
[0:40] good. I didn't think anybody would come
[0:42] cuz it was raining so much. So, so well
[0:44] done. Well done for getting out here.
[0:45] And it's good to see the nuns are here.
[0:47] Like
[0:48] you've all listened to me talk a lot.
[0:49] Like wouldn't it be better if they were
[0:51] giving the talk today?
[0:55] Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah?
[0:58] So
[0:59] got like
[1:00] strong like strong-arm them a lot. Like
[1:04] and say, "Hey, we really want you to
[1:06] come here and give talks." So
[1:08] Yeah? Yes? Yeah? How How much do you
[1:11] want them to come here and give talks?
[1:14] A lot? Yeah, there you go. See, the the
[1:16] people have spoken and
[1:18] now you must
[1:20] Now you must obey what the people what
[1:21] the people want. Uh
[1:23] >> Does it seem like a setup?
[1:27] >> It's It's
[1:29] >> I don't say [snorts] you don't have time
[1:31] to listen to me
[1:32] talking.
[1:33] But we just like nice to be here. Just
[1:35] see
[1:36] And I don't want to sit on the sofa.
[1:39] But we want you to give the
[1:41] >> [laughter]
[1:43] >> in the future.
[1:45] >> There is no future.
[1:47] There literally is no future.
[1:50] So you just have to do it. Like
[1:53] >> [laughter]
[1:55] >> Tomorrow never
[1:57] >> Tomorrow never comes, but Nove- November
[2:00] will come.
[2:01] >> How many days do you listen to your
[2:04] talk?
[2:07] >> Well, I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll give it
[2:10] I'll give a talk as hopefully as the
[2:12] cause for you to give future talks here.
[2:14] Then that's the That's That's the only
[2:15] condition I will continue to open my
[2:18] mouth today.
[2:19] Sound fair?
[2:25] >> [laughter]
[2:26] >> You're good at gardening, so let's just
[2:28] let's
[2:29] Let's do it that Cool. Okay, so yeah, I
[2:31] I won't I won't put them I put them on
[2:33] the spot, but I won't put them on the
[2:34] spot that much. I don't want to I don't
[2:36] want to throw them under the bus like
[2:38] that. So, look, I um
[2:41] as a few of you know, I I went away I
[2:43] went away for about a week. Uh
[2:46] I just got back yesterday morning and um
[2:49] I was in Korea for for you know, just
[2:51] just under 7 days and um I was at I was
[2:54] going around looking at a lot of
[2:55] Buddhist places that are there, but then
[2:56] also I was at a conference that had uh
[2:59] different uh Buddhist scholars, uh
[3:02] contemplative scientists, uh
[3:04] clinical psychologist, mindfulness
[3:07] scientists, all these kinds of different
[3:08] people.
[3:09] >> [snorts]
[3:09] >> And the whole kind of theme of the like
[3:12] the conference that I went to was you
[3:13] know, how can mindfulness and Buddhist
[3:16] thought how can that influence like make
[3:17] society better?
[3:19] How can that uh contribute to you know,
[3:21] environmental change and environmental
[3:23] impact? And you know, this is This is a
[3:26] you know, it's obviously it's a good
[3:27] thing to talk about. It's a good thing
[3:28] to think about.
[3:29] >> [snorts]
[3:29] >> Uh but one thing that kept coming up
[3:31] over and over again is this idea of uh
[3:34] interconnectedness.
[3:36] That we're all interconnected and
[3:37] mindfulness helps us become uh
[3:39] interconnected with other people. Now,
[3:41] [snorts] again, you know, this is a you
[3:43] know, this is a nice idea, but there's
[3:44] like
[3:45] You all know me like there's something
[3:47] about when everybody agrees on
[3:49] everything that I don't really like.
[3:52] So, everyone's like, "Oh, it's all
[3:53] interconnectedness." I'm like, "Well, is
[3:55] Okay." So, it got me it got me thinking
[3:58] a lot about this idea of
[4:00] interconnectedness and how we think
[4:01] about this from
[4:03] you know, just from a from a common
[4:05] sense perspective, but then also from a
[4:06] Buddhist perspective. But then also from
[4:09] the perspective of like maybe how did
[4:11] the Buddha think about something like
[4:12] interconnectedness? So, because you
[4:15] know, everybody knows the famous
[4:16] teaching of the Buddha is that you know,
[4:18] I am the owner of my karma, heir of my
[4:20] karma, born of my karma, related to my
[4:22] karma, about supported by my karma,
[4:24] whatever karma I do for good or for ill,
[4:27] I will be the heir of that. So, we all
[4:29] kind of like know this. You know, it's
[4:31] from the Anguttara Nikaya. And [snorts]
[4:34] what this what this kind of means is
[4:35] that like our personal intentions and
[4:37] our personal actions matter. And with
[4:40] they these things have consequences.
[4:42] But like at the same time, you know, we
[4:44] can also like look just out into our
[4:47] lives and then go actually like our
[4:49] lives are really actually shaped by
[4:51] other people and other people's
[4:52] decisions and other people's actions
[4:54] really kind of have an influence over
[4:56] over our lives.
[4:58] So, if we also take the like the
[5:00] Buddhist idea of rebirth seriously, we
[5:02] have this kind of idea that our lives
[5:04] are conditioned by past karma. So, we
[5:07] have this idea that
[5:09] uh if I wronged, you know, it's it's
[5:11] again it's just a general assumption. If
[5:13] I if I am wronged by somebody now,
[5:15] that's due to my past karma. I you know,
[5:17] maybe I wronged somebody in the past.
[5:20] Likewise, if something good happens to
[5:21] me, well, this is the result of me maybe
[5:23] helping somebody in the past. You know,
[5:25] this can sometimes be um an
[5:27] oversimplification, but some people
[5:28] actually like really do take this this
[5:30] idea kind of seriously.
[5:33] So, kind of the question that I wanted
[5:34] to like think about in the tension that
[5:36] I wanted to like sort of explore today
[5:38] is like how much how much of what
[5:41] actually happens to us is due to our own
[5:44] karma?
[5:45] So,
[5:46] the reason I kind of wanted to talk
[5:48] about this is because I think we can
[5:50] we've we've got the we've got the issue
[5:52] of interconnectedness, which is it's
[5:54] complex.
[5:56] But then also I think there's this other
[5:58] kind of fallacy that we may be fall into
[6:00] as well as like we kind of think we're
[6:03] the instigator of all action as well.
[6:05] That everything that happens in life is
[6:07] kind of because of us and because of our
[6:10] karma.
[6:11] So, we start treating ourselves as like
[6:13] like the center of the universe and that
[6:17] kind of happens because of us. Again,
[6:19] these are the two extremes. These are
[6:21] the two extremes. I'm I'm hopefully I
[6:22] hopefully you fall somewhere somewhere
[6:24] in the middle of that. Hopefully you
[6:25] don't like fall on either end of that.
[6:27] So, like the question I wanted to pose
[6:30] today essentially is is like if we're
[6:32] actually the heirs and owners and
[6:34] supported by our karma,
[6:36] but our lives are also really
[6:39] interconnected and interrelated with
[6:41] others, like how much of what actually
[6:43] happens to us is the result of our karma
[6:46] or is it a result of people's karma?
[6:49] So, it it's actually like a like a a
[6:51] pointed question of like is our karma is
[6:53] it individual?
[6:55] Or is our karma shared?
[6:57] Or is it both? Or is it
[7:00] neither of these two these three
[7:02] options?
[7:03] So,
[7:05] so I I kind of wanted to like think
[7:06] about this in in terms of like like
[7:08] setting up a kind of like what we call
[7:10] an intuition pump is like so who's who's
[7:12] actually had something bad happen to
[7:14] them?
[7:16] Yeah. Who's Yeah.
[7:18] So, something goes wrong for you
[7:20] personally in this kind of way. So, who
[7:23] basically thinks when something goes
[7:25] wrong for you there's a reason for it?
[7:28] Something bad happens there's some sort
[7:30] of reason, yeah? Everything happens for
[7:32] a reason, yeah? Who Who has that kind of
[7:35] intuition around that?
[7:37] Yeah, everything happens for a reason.
[7:39] It's a common thing that you'll see on
[7:41] >> Some talking things happen without
[7:43] reason but because of the bad condition.
[7:46] >> Yeah, maybe yeah, because of the bad
[7:47] conditions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
[7:49] yeah. You know, I I'd like to think that
[7:51] like my talk would be packed out today
[7:53] and there'd be people sitting up the
[7:54] front if it wasn't for the weather, but
[7:56] you know,
[7:57] probably got something else to do with
[7:59] it as well.
[8:01] But so how much of that kind of you
[8:04] know, a lot of times when something bad
[8:05] happens to us, do we kind of take
[8:06] responsibility for it and think, well,
[8:08] this is because of something I did?
[8:11] Something bad happens and it's like,
[8:12] this is because of something I did.
[8:14] Yeah?
[8:15] Yeah?
[8:16] So can you give me like an example of
[8:18] that?
[8:19] Somebody give me Yeah?
[8:21] >> Uh in a previous business I had someone
[8:22] steal a lot of money.
[8:24] >> Right.
[8:24] >> An employee.
[8:25] >> Yep.
[8:28] >> Yeah, I
[8:29] I realized that it was
[8:30] I took
[8:32] the inside that it was probably because
[8:34] I wasn't
[8:35] across the pulse
[8:36] >> Yep.
[8:36] >> business but I was trying to grow it too
[8:38] fast.
[8:38] >> Yep.
[8:39] >> Because of my insecurities that I was
[8:41] trying to compensate for.
[8:42] >> Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, actually
[8:44] that's that's a that's
[8:46] I'm so glad I called on you cuz that's
[8:47] actually the example that I had in my
[8:49] head of like consider when somebody
[8:52] steals something from you. Who's had
[8:53] something stolen from them?
[8:56] Anybody not had anything stolen from
[8:58] them?
[9:00] Really?
[9:01] You never had something Wow, that's
[9:03] that's that's pretty good you've
[9:04] pretty good going through life not
[9:06] having something stolen from you.
[9:08] Yeah, good and really really good karma,
[9:10] you know, let's let's let's jump on that
[9:13] let's jump on that assumption.
[9:15] So
[9:16] so you might say
[9:18] in some kind of way like one extreme
[9:19] that we can take is something that is
[9:21] stolen from you. You might say, well,
[9:23] it's my past karma that I am experience
[9:26] I'm experiencing this now. That's one
[9:28] way to that's basically one way to look
[9:29] at it.
[9:31] >> [sighs]
[9:32] >> So
[9:33] who who would kind of think of that
[9:34] though?
[9:35] Like who would kind of take that on of
[9:36] like, okay, because I've had something
[9:38] stolen from me, it must be because of my
[9:39] karma."
[9:42] Yeah.
[9:43] Yeah.
[9:45] Yeah, to some extent. Yeah.
[9:47] So, I think because there's a there's a
[9:49] bit of an issue with something like that
[9:51] in that actually like if we kind of
[9:53] think of that as like, "Well, it's my
[9:54] karma that I had something stolen from
[9:56] me." Essentially, what that does it it
[9:58] like inadvertently basically says that
[10:01] like you're the center of the universe.
[10:03] And you're now causing somebody to to
[10:05] steal something from you. So, your karma
[10:07] has made somebody else a thief.
[10:10] So, that's you know, that's but that's
[10:12] like a far like that's a far way to go,
[10:15] but it's in some way it it actually like
[10:17] can uh um
[10:18] uh entail that. This kind of thought
[10:20] that just because something was stolen
[10:22] from me and it's now my karma, it's kind
[10:24] of like my fault. I left the keys in the
[10:26] car and somebody stole my car. This is
[10:28] now my fault.
[10:30] Basically, if we take that kind of
[10:32] idealistic centric view of karma, then
[10:35] it's kind of like you're causing others
[10:37] to do good and bad things, which I you
[10:39] know, I don't think I don't think that's
[10:41] actually that reasonable.
[10:43] Cuz we have to think about like what
[10:45] causality is here. Now, when we think
[10:47] about causality, uh we think about it
[10:49] from in like in different ways, but uh
[10:51] for for something to be like causally
[10:53] connected or logically and also and even
[10:56] just like basic logical logically
[10:58] connected, it needs different kind of
[11:00] conditions. It needs what we call a
[11:01] necessary condition. So, basically, what
[11:04] this means is without this thing, the
[11:07] thing would not happen, right? So, like
[11:09] the example here is like a fire can't
[11:12] start without an ignition. So, it it's
[11:14] it's necessary that thing has to be
[11:16] there for it to happen.
[11:18] Then we also have what we call
[11:19] sufficient conditions. And so, then like
[11:21] given this thing happens, then the event
[11:23] will occur. So, the idea here is is like
[11:27] if you have a lit match and if it hits
[11:29] on something like dry kindling or
[11:31] something, this is sufficient for a fire
[11:33] to actually start.
[11:35] This is different from a necessary
[11:36] condition because, you know, a necessary
[11:38] condition you can have a lit match, you
[11:39] can have dry grass or whatever, but
[11:42] that's not sufficient for a fire to
[11:43] start. You can stand there with the
[11:45] match, but it's not it's not neces- it's
[11:49] like it's neces- like it's Sorry, it's
[11:50] not sufficient for the actual fire to
[11:52] start. It's and it might not even be
[11:53] necessary.
[11:54] But then we also have what we call is
[11:56] contributing conditions and that, you
[11:58] know, these are the things that
[11:59] contribute to an event happening. So,
[12:02] say for example with the fire, it's
[12:03] basically like, well, if you have like a
[12:05] lot of dry grass and you have a lot of
[12:07] wind, you know, this will help the fire
[12:09] kind of like spread out all over the
[12:11] place.
[12:12] So, if we think about karma in this kind
[12:15] of way, then then
[12:18] it doesn't always necessarily follow
[12:21] that because some event happens that
[12:24] this is, you know, that we caused it in
[12:25] some kind of way.
[12:27] So, you can't reason backwards from
[12:29] like, well, I was robbed
[12:31] to war- to all the way to I caused this
[12:33] thing to happen. My karma actually
[12:35] caused this thing to happen. This is
[12:37] making what we call like a logical
[12:38] fallacy here.
[12:40] So, just because past karma was a a
[12:43] condition of it, actually doesn't mean
[12:45] that it necessarily caused it in this
[12:47] kind of way.
[12:49] So,
[12:50] can you kind of think of something where
[12:51] like somebody else's decision or action
[12:55] like changed the course of your life?
[13:00] Yeah.
[13:01] What? Yeah, what do you think? Great
[13:03] Great shirt, great hair.
[13:07] >> Um
[13:08] being with someone who has extreme
[13:11] trauma
[13:11] >> Yep.
[13:12] >> and
[13:13] brought upon you to reflect in a
[13:17] profound way based on
[13:19] >> Yep.
[13:19] >> what they
[13:20] brought to the situation.
[13:21] >> Yep. So, being in interrelation with
[13:24] other people and kind of realizing or
[13:26] understanding the experiences of the
[13:29] past actually kind of shapes who you are
[13:31] as well in this kind of way. Yeah?
[13:33] >> I think of it as
[13:36] it's done for us rather than to us.
[13:39] >> Yeah.
[13:39] >> Self-determined.
[13:40] >> Yeah. Yeah, so it's done for us rather
[13:42] than to us. Anybody think of something
[13:43] else?
[13:44] >> I went through a divorce.
[13:46] >> You went through a divorce. You sure
[13:47] that's not your fault?
[13:50] I'm joking.
[13:51] Joking.
[13:53] >> [laughter]
[13:53] >> There's always two What is it? There's
[13:54] always two There's always two to tango.
[13:57] Yeah, it takes two people to get
[13:58] divorced. So, yeah. What are you going
[14:00] to say?
[14:01] >> [snorts]
[14:01] >> I think
[14:01] >> Yeah.
[14:02] >> Um decisions our parents made.
[14:04] >> Yeah.
[14:05] Yeah, it's a big one. Yeah.
[14:06] >> Yeah, when I was just My biggest example
[14:09] of one of the big things was when I was
[14:10] seven, my parents immigrated to another
[14:13] country. So, I grew up
[14:15] >> Yeah.
[14:15] >> in Israel.
[14:16] >> Mhm.
[14:17] >> So, yeah.
[14:18] >> Mhm.
[14:20] >> So, yeah, like so look all these
[14:21] different
[14:22] >> They didn't affect my life.
[14:23] >> Yeah, and like we didn't have a we
[14:24] didn't have like anything to do with
[14:26] that decision at all. All those actions.
[14:28] Yeah, your parents my parents sent me to
[14:30] a particular kind of school. I have a
[14:32] particular particular kind of like
[14:34] education now. So, like this is not
[14:36] really something that I chose myself.
[14:38] Somebody else's action caused me to be
[14:40] like the way that I am in this kind of
[14:41] way.
[14:42] >> [gasps]
[14:43] >> So,
[14:44] just because there's a causal condition
[14:46] there again, it doesn't necessarily mean
[14:48] that you are the instigator of that
[14:50] thing. Again, our parents do these
[14:52] things. We share lives with different
[14:54] people. We get divorced, you know, like
[14:56] all these different kinds of things
[14:57] happen and it doesn't So, just because
[14:59] something causally happens doesn't
[15:01] always necessarily mean that we are the
[15:03] cause of that thing. Does that kind of
[15:06] make sense?
[15:07] So, because there's a problem here cuz
[15:10] if we think if we think that like that
[15:12] everything is causally interconnection
[15:16] interconnected in this kind of way, what
[15:18] do you think that kind of does to us or
[15:20] does to our lives.
[15:24] If everything's in If everything, sorry?
[15:27] >> Makes it narrow.
[15:28] >> Makes it narrow? Yeah, yeah. So, if
[15:29] everything's interconnected, what does
[15:31] that kind of do?
[15:33] >> It disempowers us.
[15:35] >> It can disempower us, yeah. Yeah.
[15:37] Basically, it flattens all
[15:38] responsibility.
[15:40] It basically it flattens all kind of
[15:42] responsibility that we actually have.
[15:44] So,
[15:45] what it does, it disempowers us and
[15:47] dissolves responsibility. And And if we
[15:50] think about like karma from a Buddhist
[15:51] perspective, it's like karmas and the
[15:53] way we're kind of understanding that,
[15:54] it's not really meant to be doing that.
[15:56] It's actually meant to be empowering us
[15:58] in this kind of way and and allowing us
[16:00] to take responsibility for our
[16:02] intentions and our actions.
[16:04] So, but look, so now we kind of get to
[16:07] the heart of this idea of
[16:08] interconnectedness.
[16:10] And uh it's Look, I think it's a like
[16:13] it's a nice idea, and I see the
[16:15] intuition behind it, and I see the um
[16:18] you know, I see the appeal of something
[16:20] like this because look, now like we
[16:21] don't we don't operate in a vacuum.
[16:24] Like, does anybody operate in a vacuum?
[16:27] No. If we did, like I'm just talking to
[16:32] random images here. No, we don't operate
[16:35] in a vacuum. We operate uh in accordance
[16:37] with uh
[16:38] Nothing that we do happens in isolation.
[16:40] There's so many different factors that
[16:42] are involved here, different people,
[16:44] different circumstances, different like
[16:46] environments that are around.
[16:49] >> [sighs and gasps]
[16:49] >> So,
[16:51] if if everyone is kind of a part of
[16:54] that, then what we kind of end up doing
[16:57] is have flattening all responsibility,
[17:00] which is I you know, I I think that's
[17:02] like going too far in this in this way.
[17:06] Um so,
[17:08] just because something is causally
[17:10] responsible for something doesn't
[17:12] actually mean that there's a shared
[17:15] responsibility there. Does that kind of
[17:17] distinction make sense at least?
[17:21] I look like I've lost you.
[17:23] Yeah? Have I lost you?
[17:25] Little bit. Maybe. No, okay, you're
[17:28] still following along. That's good.
[17:29] That's good. So,
[17:32] So, because if we kind of think about
[17:34] things in this terms of an
[17:35] interconnected way and we take on things
[17:39] as, you know, like causality is
[17:41] interconnected in this way,
[17:43] then basically everything, you know,
[17:45] everyone becomes responsible for
[17:47] everything. So, the person that
[17:50] stole the money from your business, it's
[17:52] like, well, it's not just them. It's
[17:54] like it's you. It's
[17:56] this person's like mother, this person's
[17:59] like fourth grade teacher, it's this
[18:02] like the environment that they grew up
[18:04] in, it's their genetic lineage.
[18:06] That basically means that like everybody
[18:09] and everything is responsible for this
[18:11] thing. And that kind of doesn't
[18:14] fit. That doesn't kind of really make
[18:16] sense. So, we don't want to we don't
[18:19] want to make the logical mistake of
[18:22] basically saying that because we are
[18:24] causally connected to things
[18:27] that we share responsibility for
[18:29] everything. Does that it's kind of
[18:32] coming along?
[18:33] So,
[18:34] what interconnectedness actually does,
[18:37] I think it's a good like it's and again
[18:39] it's a good idea. What it does it it
[18:41] explains to us and helps us understand
[18:43] how things are causally dependent on
[18:45] each other. And they might be connected
[18:47] in some kind of way,
[18:49] >> [gasps]
[18:49] >> but by itself it doesn't establish who
[18:53] is responsible for a particular kind of
[18:56] action.
[18:57] So, again, cuz if everybody's if
[18:59] everybody's responsible for everything,
[19:01] then then like we've just we've lost
[19:03] responsibility. We've just everything
[19:06] like responsibility itself just totally
[19:09] loses its meaning,
[19:11] which I don't think any of us actually
[19:12] like want to do.
[19:14] So, what is the So, now we get to this
[19:17] point of like, well, what does the
[19:18] Buddha say about this? And this is
[19:21] because, you know, we look in the if we
[19:23] look in the like the early Buddhist
[19:24] sutras, a lot of it is about karma and
[19:27] personal responsibility and and being
[19:29] responsible for our intentions and
[19:31] actions in this way.
[19:32] >> [snorts]
[19:33] >> So, there's this this there's this kind
[19:34] of there's this nice sutra in the
[19:37] Sutta Nipata, the Sivaka sutra, sorry.
[19:40] And it's like it's one it's it's a rarer
[19:43] one, but it's it's it's actually like a
[19:46] really good instance of where the Buddha
[19:47] talks about this. He's basically asked
[19:50] is like there's I can't remember exactly
[19:53] who it was. I had it written there
[19:54] somewhere, but
[19:56] so basically somebody comes to him and
[19:57] asks him is like, you know, is is like
[19:59] is karma the cause of everything? Is so
[20:01] is your sickness is that the cause of
[20:03] things that are happening in the world?
[20:05] And the Buddha basically rejected this
[20:08] view that that that everything that we
[20:10] experience is due to karma. He brought
[20:13] up things like painful feelings.
[20:16] Painful feelings can arise through
[20:17] various conditions.
[20:19] There's like bodily disorders. Sorry,
[20:21] things going wrong with with with the
[20:23] body, we're getting sick in different
[20:25] way, bile, phlegm, all these kinds of
[20:26] things.
[20:27] >> [snorts]
[20:27] >> He also talked about like environmental
[20:29] factors being a being a cause for these
[20:31] things, but then also yeah, he said like
[20:32] one's own one's own personal karma as
[20:34] well.
[20:36] So,
[20:37] the point like it's a it's a short it's
[20:39] a very short sutra.
[20:42] And you know, unfortunately because it's
[20:43] so short, it doesn't cover everything.
[20:45] So, it's limited in that way.
[20:48] But I think it actually makes it like a
[20:49] really important point. The Buddha
[20:52] actually saying is like it's not like
[20:53] karma is universal in this kind of way
[20:56] or moral karma or personal karma is
[20:58] universal in this way. We might have
[21:00] karma writ large that is universal, but
[21:03] not personal or moral karma that is
[21:05] responsible for for basically everything
[21:07] here.
[21:08] >> [gasps]
[21:08] >> So,
[21:11] logical distinctions kind of [snorts]
[21:13] matter here quite a lot. Um so, just
[21:17] just if we say like karma can condition
[21:19] experience, that doesn't necessarily
[21:20] mean all experience is caused by karma.
[21:25] Just likewise, if you say karma
[21:26] contributed to some sort of outcome,
[21:28] that actually doesn't mean that karma
[21:29] alone was sufficient. Your personal
[21:32] karma alone was sufficient for that
[21:33] action to happen.
[21:35] We can't actually say just because an
[21:37] event occurred, that doesn't entail that
[21:39] we know which past causal karma actually
[21:43] produced that because it's like it's
[21:44] incredibly complex.
[21:47] So, again, like the Sivaka Sutta, it
[21:49] like it's doesn't give like a like a a
[21:51] thorough account, but it makes this
[21:53] really narrow and I like at least I
[21:54] think it like an important distinction
[21:56] here is that
[21:58] we can't explain all experience through
[22:00] personal moral karma. I I don't think we
[22:03] can kind of do that.
[22:05] And again, because it's it's it's a
[22:07] sutra that's kind of in isolation and
[22:09] there's there's a few others there's a
[22:11] few others there, but they don't make
[22:12] the point as as
[22:14] directly in this kind of way.
[22:16] When we look at some of the later
[22:18] Buddhist text,
[22:19] the like in the commentaries, there's
[22:21] there's what's called the five niyamas
[22:23] as well. Now, the five niyamas, these
[22:25] are things that produce karma. These are
[22:29] these are these are causal factors in
[22:31] the world.
[22:32] So, these are you know, these are things
[22:34] called like again, moral personal karma,
[22:37] that's one of them. Uh a second one is
[22:39] like biological processes, the kind of
[22:41] body that we have,
[22:43] the kind of health that we have.
[22:45] Uh the third is is like, you know,
[22:48] environmental seasonal phenomena, but
[22:50] the Buddha sorry, not the Buddha, the
[22:51] commentaries basically say, you know,
[22:53] the weather and things like that that
[22:54] happen. But they basically they just
[22:55] means the environment.
[22:57] Um then there's the mind as well, the
[22:59] citta, and also dharmas as well. And
[23:00] these are all sources of causality. Uh
[23:04] we could kind of say.
[23:05] So,
[23:07] when we look at this, we can kind of see
[23:08] it's like, well, it's not just all
[23:10] personal karma. There's There's other
[23:12] things that are involved in how we
[23:15] operate in the world. So, yeah, we have
[23:17] personal karma. These are our
[23:18] intentions. These are our actions.
[23:21] Um and also these are intentions actions
[23:23] that produce our the consequences that
[23:25] kind of occur for us. But look,
[23:27] what's what's the other big thing that's
[23:29] involved in this?
[23:33] There's a whole lot of you in the room.
[23:35] So, what's the other thing?
[23:38] Yeah?
[23:40] >> I think
[23:41] it's um causes and conditions from
[23:43] nature.
[23:44] >> Yep.
[23:45] >> The
[23:46] personal [snorts] part is the choices
[23:48] >> Yep.
[23:49] Yep.
[23:50] >> actions, but the other part is
[23:52] causes and conditions
[23:53] >> Yeah.
[23:54] Yeah. So, there's so much stuff outside
[23:56] of us as well. Yeah. There's like
[23:58] literally people sitting You're wearing
[23:59] a mask at the moment. And it's like,
[24:01] well, you know, the the reason you might
[24:02] get sick is because of other people.
[24:04] Yeah? That's why I'm kind of staying
[24:06] away from everyone at the moment cuz
[24:08] like I'll make I'll make you all sick.
[24:10] Um so, look, you know, other people's
[24:11] karma as well influences.
[24:14] Like other people's other you know,
[24:16] other people's biological functioning
[24:18] actually like this is something that
[24:19] influences us.
[24:21] But also their intentions and their
[24:22] actions. This is something that
[24:23] influences us as well. So, it's not just
[24:26] all personal karma.
[24:28] There's all those interpersonal
[24:29] processes as well. Genetics, biology,
[24:31] the environment, um illness, like all
[24:34] these different kinds of things.
[24:36] But then what this kind of massive
[24:38] conflagration of all these different
[24:40] causes actually brings about is
[24:43] the unknown.
[24:45] Kind of randomness and what we call luck
[24:48] in some kind of way.
[24:49] So, because of all these like strange
[24:51] causal processes coming together, it
[24:54] kind of produces these things that it's
[24:55] like a seemingly random
[24:58] a seemingly by chance a seemingly just
[25:01] kind of the luck of the karmic drawer in
[25:03] this way.
[25:04] Now, the point here is that these things
[25:06] aren't mutually exclusive. It's not like
[25:08] you just have one and you don't have the
[25:10] others. Like these things are really
[25:12] tied up together.
[25:15] So, we're constantly like bumping into
[25:17] all these other different kinds of karma
[25:19] that are out there in the world.
[25:22] Now, you know, again, so this you know,
[25:24] you gave the example of like moving to
[25:26] Israel when you were a kid. Like it's
[25:27] like somebody else's
[25:29] decisions and actions kind of cause
[25:32] something that just happened in your
[25:34] life. Again, it's not like really a
[25:36] personal thing. It's like all this other
[25:38] thing happened. I'm sure there are
[25:39] environmental things that brought about
[25:41] that and maybe the chance of a new job
[25:43] or something like that or some kind of
[25:45] work. You know, and they could just be
[25:46] like kind of geopolitical things that
[25:49] were going on at that time that would
[25:51] make that a good idea to actually do.
[25:53] So,
[25:55] while we might contribute to the world
[25:58] in which others live, it doesn't mean
[26:00] that we cause everything else in the
[26:03] world in this kind of way. Likewise,
[26:06] everything that other people do, it
[26:08] doesn't always just necessarily cause us
[26:10] to be a particular kind of way. You
[26:12] know, we do have some sort of choice in
[26:13] this kind of matter.
[26:15] So, what this does and like it doesn't
[26:17] really deny personal responsibility in
[26:20] this way. It just recognizes that we're
[26:22] not the personal cause of absolutely
[26:25] everything in the world.
[26:27] Um this is kind of solipsistic. This is
[26:30] kind of This is a little bit too like
[26:32] egocentric. Yeah, you're going to say
[26:33] something?
[26:34] >> Yeah, it's
[26:36] Is it okay if I come in?
[26:37] >> Mhm.
[26:39] >> It's something that I've actually been
[26:41] thinking about that I specifically bring
[26:43] it up because um
[26:45] >> I'll just repeat it. It's okay.
[26:47] >> You won't be
[26:47] >> Yeah, yeah. Yep.
[26:48] >> It's okay.
[26:49] So,
[26:50] um
[26:51] I started last year working with a
[26:54] village in India where people live
[26:57] >> probably under the poverty line.
[26:59] >> Yep.
[26:59] >> And developing relationships with these
[27:01] people.
[27:02] >> Yep.
[27:02] >> And I'm going back there again in
[27:03] January to work with them.
[27:07] And
[27:08] when you start to encounter poverty
[27:10] really closely
[27:11] >> Mhm.
[27:13] >> and start to understand the statistics
[27:15] >> Mhm.
[27:17] >> and also start to read and understand
[27:19] more
[27:20] and you call it that theological causes
[27:23] of poverty in the world.
[27:24] >> Yep.
[27:25] >> [snorts]
[27:26] >> You start to understand how over the
[27:30] past last 500 years
[27:33] basically on this planet
[27:35] certain groups of people have caused
[27:37] other groups of people
[27:39] >> Yep.
[27:39] >> who are the majority on the planet in
[27:41] poverty.
[27:45] >> And so the question of karma is really
[27:47] interesting because [snorts]
[27:49] in a very simplistic way we could say
[27:51] these people's karma that they are poor.
[27:54] >> Yep.
[27:55] >> [snorts]
[27:55] >> And yet there's everything in me that
[27:57] rejects that.
[27:58] >> Yep.
[27:59] >> And says
[28:00] these people it's [snorts] not their
[28:01] karma and sometimes karma can be used to
[28:04] actually disempower these people to
[28:06] accept the consequences.
[28:08] >> Yeah.
[28:09] >> So there is an element of luck. Why was
[28:11] I born in Melbourne with food to eat and
[28:14] these people were [snorts] born in India
[28:16] with no food to eat.
[28:18] >> Yep.
[28:19] >> There's luck.
[28:20] There's logic of what colonialism has
[28:23] done.
[28:24] >> Yep. So what what's the what's the
[28:25] question here, sorry?
[28:27] >> is
[28:29] Well, I guess it's how do we think about
[28:31] this? And I I guess I'm agreeing with
[28:33] you
[28:33] >> Yeah.
[28:34] >> saying
[28:35] yes, there is this element that karma
[28:37] and this connected [snorts] is maybe
[28:40] simplified
[28:41] >> Mhm.
[28:42] >> to exactly flatten the responsibility
[28:45] and is a dangerous place to go.
[28:47] >> Yep.
[28:48] >> I guess that on a global scale that is
[28:51] >> Yeah, yeah.
[28:52] Yep.
[28:54] Yeah, so the reflection is something
[28:56] along the lines of like if we kind of
[28:58] look out into the world, we see kind of
[29:00] injustices and we can look at the like
[29:02] the the multiple causes of those
[29:04] injustices and then we can go hey
[29:06] there's you know this is this is
[29:08] something that's really complex and we
[29:10] can kind of see was if we look back
[29:11] through history certain certain things
[29:13] in history caused a particular kind of
[29:15] things some people to be disempowered
[29:19] and living in poverty, others to be
[29:21] empowered and living in affluence.
[29:24] And so there's this kind of there's this
[29:25] kind of
[29:27] reflection that like well look if we
[29:28] kind of take take karma too seriously in
[29:32] one kind of way we might say these you
[29:34] know this is these people's karma so we
[29:36] actually end up becoming
[29:37] you know effectively blunt towards them
[29:40] or denying you know or or kind of
[29:44] saying that they're the cause of these
[29:45] things or we might say on the other side
[29:47] is like well these people that were
[29:49] colonialist in some kind of way
[29:51] that you know they're to blame on all
[29:53] these kinds of things but but actually
[29:55] having this kind of idea where things
[29:57] are you know
[29:58] there are just like certain causes that
[30:01] that
[30:02] very complex and come together to bring
[30:04] these kinds of things so so how do we
[30:06] kind of now think about this randomness?
[30:09] How do we think about this kind of
[30:12] like
[30:13] this litany of causes that actually like
[30:17] bring about our life at the moment and I
[30:19] think you know this is this is actually
[30:20] where this is actually where I think
[30:22] it's
[30:24] you know this is where we have to just
[30:25] like just take a nuanced view of karma
[30:28] as as opposed to very kind of
[30:31] you know as opposed to a very narrow
[30:33] view of karma. I think we can think
[30:34] about it in terms of like consequences.
[30:37] The consequences of these things like
[30:39] now like so past causes are past causes
[30:42] like what we have now is consequences.
[30:46] Now, when we think So, if we if we say
[30:49] if we say in one aspect, "Okay, well,
[30:52] we don't want to say everybody's
[30:54] responsible for everything." But, we
[30:56] also don't want to say like an
[30:57] individual is is just they're also just
[30:59] totally responsible for everything.
[31:02] So, we don't want to say everybody
[31:03] shares the causes, but I think we can
[31:06] kind of say as well as like in some way
[31:08] we kind of share the consequences of
[31:11] these things that happen. We were all a
[31:12] part of the consequences that happened.
[31:15] So, say for example, one person's
[31:18] cruelty can cause a lot of people
[31:20] suffering.
[31:22] And one person's generosity can help a
[31:24] lot of people as well. One person's
[31:26] decision can kind of change the course
[31:29] of history. Um
[31:31] all these different kinds of things.
[31:34] So, in this sense, like
[31:36] consequences are something that we
[31:38] share, I think. This is I think this is
[31:41] when we're thinking about like
[31:43] interconnecting this as like we're
[31:44] sharing the the the the um the
[31:47] consequences [snorts]
[31:48] together in this kind of way.
[31:51] So, even even though even though our
[31:53] intentions and actions, we you know,
[31:54] we're not sharing those things, but
[31:56] we're sharing the consequences of a lot
[31:57] of people's different intentions and
[31:59] actions.
[32:00] Um so, if interconnection and shared
[32:04] karma in this kind of way basically is
[32:08] basically says that look, the
[32:09] consequences that we experience is now,
[32:11] it's all entangled. I think this is
[32:13] something we can kind of say, "Yeah, you
[32:15] know, there is a kind of
[32:16] interconnectedness there. There is a
[32:18] kind of shared um
[32:20] you know,
[32:21] you
[32:22] shared experiences of the consequences
[32:24] of something.
[32:26] But, if like interconnectedness and
[32:29] shared karma in this way means like, you
[32:31] know, dispersed responsibility, I I
[32:34] think we've kind of gone too far with
[32:36] that thing then. I think that we we made
[32:37] a bit of a mistake there.
[32:39] >> [gasps]
[32:39] >> So,
[32:41] we have to distinguish this shared
[32:44] ownership from
[32:46] responsibility. I think we kind of have
[32:48] to distinguish that.
[32:50] So, just to kind of kind of wrap this up
[32:51] now is that well, look, it's like if we
[32:53] think about if we think about like this
[32:56] this this main teaching of karma karma
[32:58] sakani karma tayo to karma yoni karma
[33:00] bandu karma bati's I don't know young
[33:01] karma kamisami karayanam papa kanwa dasa
[33:05] tayo body sammi.
[33:06] It's you I'm the owner of my karma heir
[33:08] of my karma born of my karma related to
[33:10] my karma by by supported by my karma
[33:12] whatever karma I do for good or for ill
[33:14] then that and like then then I'm the
[33:16] heir of that.
[33:17] This is what this does I think
[33:20] hopefully hopefully what this does is
[33:22] kind of
[33:24] call a kind of personal responsibility
[33:26] on us.
[33:27] What this does is kind of allows us to
[33:29] kind of stand up and go yes, like the
[33:31] things that I do matter and the actions
[33:33] that I do it matter and I am kind of
[33:35] responsible for for those those things.
[33:39] What I think this does is brings about
[33:40] and supports a kind of personal
[33:42] responsibility.
[33:43] And what I hopefully think it does as
[33:45] well as brings about a sense of what we
[33:46] call hiri ottappa and this is like moral
[33:48] conscience and and regard for
[33:51] consequences.
[33:52] >> [gasps]
[33:53] >> I think this is like very good to do
[33:55] that but in the same time what it what
[33:58] this teaching of karma doesn't do it
[34:01] doesn't kind of flatten all
[34:02] responsibility out and doesn't actually
[34:04] make us experts on karma and that
[34:07] everything that happens to everyone is
[34:08] just because of their karma and we can
[34:10] kind of go well, yeah, you know, you're
[34:12] in India and you're suffering you're to
[34:14] blame for that suffering. It doesn't I
[34:16] don't think it does that. We don't want
[34:18] it to do we don't want it to do that.
[34:22] So, we have to kind of know that
[34:23] experience arises through multiple
[34:26] conditions. It can be personal. It can
[34:28] be others. It can be like just purely
[34:32] you
[34:33] you purely things like things like third
[34:36] variables, the weather, all these
[34:38] different kinds of things.
[34:40] So, we kind of have to be cautious about
[34:42] blaming others for things that happen.
[34:44] But likewise, we can't really also see
[34:46] ourselves as the sole proprietor of
[34:48] everything that happens in experiences
[34:50] well.
[34:52] So, like the point here is that like not
[34:54] that karma is irrelevant or in any kind
[34:56] of way, but it's just personal karma is
[34:58] just limited of what it can actually
[35:00] explain in our lives.
[35:03] And so, if we are the heirs and the
[35:05] owners and all these kinds of things of
[35:06] our karma, like we can be that, but
[35:08] we're not like the authors of the whole
[35:11] world.
[35:13] We're not We're not the kind of sole
[35:16] gravitational center of of absolutely
[35:18] everything in the world.
[35:20] >> [sighs and gasps]
[35:21] >> We live within like other people's
[35:23] intentions, actions,
[35:26] random causality, luck, all these
[35:28] different kinds of things. We like we're
[35:30] we're a part of that, and we're bumping
[35:32] against it all the time.
[35:35] So,
[35:36] so like the point here is is not to take
[35:39] responsibility not to take
[35:41] responsibility for everyone and
[35:43] everything, but to take responsibility
[35:44] for what's ours and what we can actually
[35:46] what we do have some sort of autonomy
[35:48] over.
[35:49] >> [sighs and gasps]
[35:50] >> We can't We The last thing we want to do
[35:52] is imagine that everybody
[35:54] is responsible for everything and that
[35:57] everybody is to blame for everything as
[35:59] well. I think that's kind of going too
[36:00] far.
[36:01] So, yeah, with that like let's kind of
[36:03] let's see where this where this lands,
[36:06] where this kind of
[36:08] what we think about this kind of stuff.
[36:09] So, yeah.
[36:10] Yep. Dr. Joe.
[36:12] Dr. Joe has got his hand up. Dr. Joe,
[36:14] can I ask a question first?
[36:16] >> Very well.
[36:17] >> Can I Can I go first?
[36:20] Can I go ahead of you?
[36:21] >> Yeah.
[36:22] >> Yeah.
[36:23] >> Yep.
[36:23] >> I don't
[36:24] >> [snorts]
[36:24] >> know.
[36:25] There's a part of that where you talked
[36:27] about you cuz you came out of from
[36:28] responsibility.
[36:29] >> Yep. And I understand you're coming at
[36:30] it from responsibility.
[36:32] But what I find is that
[36:35] um
[36:36] when something
[36:37] completely out of your control happens
[36:39] in life.
[36:41] The approach of like you've taken like
[36:44] this
[36:45] flattening the responsibility. But when
[36:47] when you come at it like
[36:49] it's just the way it is.
[36:52] There's a way of it flattens this anger
[36:55] and ill-will and all of that unwholesome
[36:58] states of mind that come.
[37:00] So take [snorts]
[37:01] I understand the responsibility one.
[37:04] And but the other end of that is
[37:06] actually to flatten the the unwholesome
[37:09] states.
[37:10] >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[37:12] Yeah, look and look I I'm on record a
[37:15] lot of saying that is actually like we
[37:18] shouldn't you know when something bad
[37:20] happens is like we shouldn't go hey I am
[37:22] the locus of responsibility for that.
[37:24] Therefore, I should feel I should always
[37:27] feel bad about this thing.
[37:29] And that we can use this idea of
[37:32] like interconnectedness and like
[37:35] dispersed responsibility in this way to
[37:37] like to to to develop like wholesome you
[37:40] know wholesome states wholesome actions
[37:43] wholesome intentions.
[37:45] So I think you know that like it is
[37:47] useful. I'm not saying like I said I'm
[37:49] not saying it's not useful in this kind
[37:51] of way. But I I'd also kind of
[37:54] uh
[37:55] I think we have to use this reflection
[37:58] skillfully.
[37:59] So as opposed to just taking it as a
[38:02] like as an as a should or a not.
[38:04] Like we have to use this thing
[38:06] skillfully.
[38:07] Like you know like the like the thing
[38:09] with responsibility is like we have to
[38:11] use something like responsibility
[38:12] skillfully you know to know what's mine
[38:15] I'm responsible for and know what's
[38:17] what's out of my control. Something like
[38:19] guilt you know we have have use guilt
[38:21] responsibly as well. Now, we might think
[38:24] that guilt is a innately negative
[38:26] attitude that we sorry emotion that we
[38:28] shouldn't have it. Yeah, guilt is
[38:29] actually useful sometimes.
[38:32] >> [gasps]
[38:32] >> So, we have to use this thing
[38:33] skillfully. So, I think these
[38:35] reflections of interconnectedness like
[38:38] we do have to use it skillfully in this
[38:41] way and I don't think there's anything
[38:42] wrong with that at all.
[38:44] I just I just am cautious about
[38:47] about some people kind of using it as a
[38:50] like as a catch all for everything in
[38:53] this kind of way.
[38:54] So,
[38:55] so something can be personally
[38:57] beneficial and publicly not so
[39:01] not so beneficial. Something can be
[39:02] publicly beneficial but not personally
[39:04] beneficial in this way.
[39:06] So, I just think we have to be like
[39:08] careful and skillful in how we actually
[39:10] use it as opposed to going the concept
[39:12] itself is wrong. Does that make sense?
[39:14] >> Yeah. I mean I was just coming at it
[39:16] from the first thing that happens is the
[39:17] unskillful states of mind arise.
[39:19] >> Yeah.
[39:20] >> And to me, [snorts] that's the first
[39:21] thing to try and dissipate.
[39:23] >> Yep.
[39:23] >> So,
[39:24] >> Yeah.
[39:24] >> seeing it as this this is this there's
[39:27] like a whole bunch of causes that came
[39:29] together that I have absolutely no
[39:31] control over.
[39:32] >> Yep.
[39:32] >> That allows it to sort of dissipate. And
[39:34] then we can take you know take take
[39:36] responsibility for for aspects of it.
[39:41] >> so but again you you mentioned this
[39:43] thing of like skillful states as well.
[39:45] But also like cuz there's also I think
[39:47] there's a wrinkle here as well in that
[39:48] like actually like if something goes
[39:50] wrong and you feel guilty about it. It's
[39:52] like man, maybe I maybe I did it. Like
[39:55] like
[39:56] I don't know about anybody else but my
[39:58] first reaction to everything is like
[40:01] am I the
[40:03] I can't say the swear word here but you
[40:04] know the swear word that I'm probably
[40:06] thinking am I the
[40:08] here.
[40:10] Like was it me?
[40:12] So, sometimes that
[40:14] like that unskillful state actually can
[40:15] be skillful as well. But yeah, you're
[40:17] right. if it's like
[40:19] a negative state of like, "Well,
[40:21] I'm not that.
[40:23] They are." Like, that's you know, that's
[40:25] unskillful.
[40:26] Can Can anyone read my lips?
[40:29] >> [laughter]
[40:30] >> You can probably read my lips. So, but
[40:32] yeah, so I like I agree in this kind of
[40:34] way, but also I think we also have to
[40:35] sometimes in some way go,
[40:38] "Yeah, there's like sometimes unskillful
[40:39] things are
[40:40] helpful in some way." So, but yeah,
[40:42] basically agree with you. Yeah.
[40:44] >> People will be reading your lips on
[40:45] YouTube.
[40:46] >> Yeah, hopefully the mic is big enough.
[40:49] >> It wasn't a bad It wasn't a really bad
[40:52] swear word. It's a
[40:55] Even the YouTube AI will still figure it
[40:57] out.
[40:58] >> Yeah.
[41:01] Let's Let's take it out of context and
[41:03] like let's just make a like a short clip
[41:05] of me swearing. Yeah.
[41:07] >> [laughter]
[41:07] >> Yeah.
[41:08] >> [snorts]
[41:08] >> I don't know how you should do the
[41:09] interesting topic that you always bring.
[41:12] Um yes, I think I will
[41:15] rephrase this topic. You say inter
[41:18] depend inter connect.
[41:20] >> Yeah.
[41:21] >> I go further. Interconnected and
[41:23] interdependent.
[41:24] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[41:25] >> So, that's that's a topic.
[41:27] >> Yeah.
[41:27] >> So, you went for the conference that's
[41:30] about the topic very [snorts]
[41:31] interesting. So, we all try to explain
[41:34] through Buddha's teachings.
[41:36] When Buddha got enlightened,
[41:38] we all know that he paid respect to tree
[41:40] he was under.
[41:41] >> Yeah.
[41:41] >> The Bodhi tree.
[41:42] >> Mhm.
[41:43] >> He was [snorts] making a at that time I
[41:45] made a silent statement
[41:47] >> Mhm.
[41:47] >> to say that we are connected to
[41:49] environment.
[41:50] >> Yeah.
[41:50] Okay.
[41:51] >> Later we found that oxygen comes from
[41:53] trees.
[41:53] >> Yeah.
[41:54] >> He didn't give a lecture on biology at
[41:55] the time.
[41:56] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[41:57] >> Okay. So, the the reason why he did that
[41:59] is to just to give a silent statement
[42:01] say, "We are part of environment. We are
[42:03] all interconnected and interdependent."
[42:06] >> Yeah, it's a support. Yeah.
[42:07] >> That's why the Bodhi tree is otherwise
[42:09] not everything else.
[42:10] >> Mhm.
[42:11] >> Uh
[42:12] then uh
[42:13] karma is uh
[42:15] >> as Buddhist teachings, one of the four,
[42:17] as you said,
[42:18] >> Yeah.
[42:18] >> conditions that, uh,
[42:20] we see the phenomena, process phenomena
[42:22] you see.
[42:23] >> Mhm.
[42:24] >> So, Buddha's statement is every process
[42:26] and phenomena we see, there's a cause.
[42:30] >> Yeah.
[42:30] >> That's how it starts.
[42:31] >> Yep.
[42:31] >> Every process and phenomena we see, we
[42:33] experience, has a cause.
[42:35] >> Mhm.
[42:36] >> One cause is karma.
[42:37] >> Yep.
[42:38] >> What does karma is? Karma is, if through
[42:41] ignorance, we as CCS as separate
[42:43] individual,
[42:44] >> Mhm.
[42:45] >> uh, we in the cycle of birth and
[42:46] rebirth, the things that we create
[42:48] through intention by action, speech, and
[42:51] thought.
[42:52] >> Yeah.
[42:52] >> So, you and also the karma is, uh, as a
[42:56] indi- separate individual,
[42:58] you suffer,
[43:00] suffer, experience suffering
[43:02] individually, personally. Through the
[43:04] dependent origination, you can see that.
[43:06] >> Mhm.
[43:07] >> Dependent origination,
[43:08] pratītyasamutpāda, you can see that. So,
[43:11] what the ex- the responsibility of this
[43:14] personal individual is to how to deal
[43:16] with this, uh,
[43:18] impact of the all the causes,
[43:21] process phenomena. That is what we have
[43:24] to develop. That's a development of to
[43:26] practice what we need.
[43:28] To how to cope with the suffering caused
[43:30] by the all the factors, either due to
[43:33] other factors [snorts] as and plus the
[43:35] things that you have done before.
[43:37] >> Yeah.
[43:37] >> And secondly, through mindfulness, which
[43:40] you will do for the uh, for the uh, this
[43:42] uh, uh,
[43:43] the seminar,
[43:44] uh, that is the time that, uh, you do
[43:46] not create further conditions to be in
[43:48] the cycle.
[43:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[43:50] >> So, he's a individual
[43:51] >> Yep.
[43:52] >> who's suffering due to karma is one of
[43:55] the causes, he experiences suffering,
[43:58] and he will not create further suffering
[44:00] by not remaining in the cycle of birth
[44:03] and rebirth.
[44:04] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[44:05] >> That is the story, it's we are
[44:06] interconnected, interdependent. Physical
[44:09] things we can see how we are
[44:10] interdependent. I mean, we have to
[44:12] depend on people to make our glasses,
[44:14] our clothes, our cars, everything.
[44:17] But the the vijnana
[44:18] >> [clears throat]
[44:18] >> is the mindful mind
[44:21] is we can't see. But if you look at the
[44:24] dependent origination, it is the
[44:26] consciousness that lead to form and
[44:28] body, you know.
[44:29] That's the process we are going through.
[44:30] So that's the process we are going
[44:32] through. The connection between
[44:34] interconnected between the body and the
[44:36] consciousness. Nama rupa, vijnana, all
[44:38] that. So we can explain this to Buddhist
[44:40] teaching very clearly how
[44:42] interdependent, how interconnected, and
[44:44] not to suffer, and not to
[44:46] cause further suffering.
[44:47] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's a good it's a good
[44:49] point. Um it's a good point of like this
[44:51] thing of like
[44:53] well, it's not necessarily the case that
[44:54] we cause everything, but it's how we
[44:55] react to that as well. And as I how do
[44:58] we how we react to that? Is that giving
[45:00] rise to more suffering, or is that
[45:02] giving rise to less suffering?
[45:04] And so that is you know, that's the you
[45:06] know, that's the the kind of key here, I
[45:08] think, is that well, we can kind of see
[45:10] that there's some things that are caused
[45:12] by {quote} me.
[45:14] There's some things that are caused by
[45:15] things that are outside of my control,
[45:17] others, the environment, all these kinds
[45:19] of things.
[45:20] The important practical point here is
[45:22] how we react to that. How we react, how
[45:25] do we how do we like minimize the
[45:27] suffering that's there, and minimize the
[45:29] suffering there for
[45:31] you know, {quote} me, the individual,
[45:33] the suffering for others as well. So I
[45:34] think that's you know, from a very
[45:36] practical perspective, and it's kind of
[45:38] what was Srujit was saying is like in
[45:39] this way something like this
[45:42] a reflection about interconnection or
[45:45] interdependence in this way can kind of
[45:47] help us respond
[45:49] like usefully usefully in this way. So
[45:51] that you know, that's the really the
[45:52] kind of the like the you know, the
[45:54] golden the golden ticket here of like
[45:56] what we actually need to do. Again, I
[45:58] can kind of go through necessary and
[45:59] sufficient conditions and all these
[46:01] kinds of things, but it like it in the
[46:03] end it doesn't really
[46:03] >> [laughter]
[46:04] >> it doesn't really matter. You have to
[46:05] deal with it. So like I can tell you not
[46:08] to blame
[46:10] somebody that has a spray tan and has a
[46:12] like big hair for all the problems of
[46:14] the world, but you're still going to
[46:15] watch the news and get like infuriated
[46:18] at this at this person. So
[46:20] So it's one thing again, it's one thing
[46:22] for me to go through all the all this
[46:23] kind of stuff. It's another thing for us
[46:25] to actually like practice with it as
[46:26] well. So yeah. So a question online?
[46:29] >> [clears throat]
[46:30] >> Thank you. Thank you, John.
[46:32] As always thought-provoking. There is a
[46:35] question that is related to a comment.
[46:37] So I'll I'll share the comment first.
[46:39] The comment is my understanding has been
[46:41] that the non-intuitive paradox of karma
[46:45] is not only
[46:47] not being attached to things.
[46:50] Do you actually
[46:51] then take responsibility and then better
[46:54] things happen in life? So
[46:56] let me repeat that. It is the not being
[46:58] attached to things that then you
[47:00] actually get better things happen in
[47:03] life.
[47:04] And then the question that's by another
[47:06] person who's been in the conversation.
[47:09] So then how do we gain insight into
[47:10] karma without it being based on inherent
[47:13] self?
[47:14] Because then we can get caught up with
[47:15] the ego if you see the karma as being
[47:18] mine. So these are related.
[47:20] >> Yeah.
[47:20] >> Yeah.
[47:21] >> Cool. Yeah, really good question. Um
[47:24] So yeah, it's
[47:26] uh
[47:27] cuz I think that's a little bit of the
[47:30] the issue that I first
[47:33] that I first talked about is a lot of
[47:35] the times we have this like version of
[47:37] like it's all mine.
[47:38] Like it's all mine. There's this kind of
[47:40] self that is the owner of everything.
[47:43] And so sometimes we get too wrapped up
[47:45] in that and thinking that it's all mine
[47:47] and thinking that it's all my karma.
[47:49] >> [sighs]
[47:49] >> And obviously but then if we can go to
[47:51] the other extreme as well as like well
[47:53] like a Buddhism teaches that everything
[47:55] has anatta, everything's not self, so
[47:57] none of it's mine. So, therefore, you
[48:00] know, I'm not kind of responsible for
[48:02] anything in this kind of way.
[48:04] So, I don't think we want to take either
[48:05] of these two extremes here. Again, you
[48:07] know, we want to be we want to be
[48:08] looking at things, you know,
[48:10] pragmatically. We want to be looking at
[48:11] things in a balanced way. Um so so say
[48:14] for example, we can we can take
[48:16] something like um
[48:19] uh
[48:19] we can take something like
[48:20] non-attachment that you said. It's like
[48:22] if we if we're just non-attached to
[48:24] thing, does that actually make like
[48:25] things in the world happen in a better
[48:27] way? Well, in one sense maybe yes, and
[48:28] in other sense maybe no as well.
[48:31] >> [sighs and gasps]
[48:31] >> Uh just because I'm not attached to
[48:33] thing, it doesn't mean like bad things
[48:34] won't happen. Bad things might still
[48:36] happen. Just because I'm not attached to
[48:37] thing, it doesn't mean good things won't
[48:39] happen. You know, this is this basically
[48:41] how
[48:42] things work.
[48:44] So, but non-attachment again is is very
[48:46] useful for again our personal response
[48:48] to these to these things. Likewise, the
[48:51] like the idea that there is kind of no
[48:53] self there, it can be helpful in this
[48:56] way. Can be skillful. It's like say you
[48:57] know, bad you know, bad things happen.
[48:59] It's like well,
[49:00] >> [gasps]
[49:00] >> look, you know, there's uh you know,
[49:03] what caused this is like it's just a
[49:04] whole causal causal process. There isn't
[49:08] really a me that's at the center there
[49:09] causing all these things. So, this can
[49:12] be very useful in that way.
[49:14] But likewise, we don't want to like
[49:17] jump on the other end of that and go,
[49:18] "Well, there is no me. It's all just
[49:21] random causes and conditions, and I
[49:23] don't have to care about anything
[49:25] because it's just this cold impersonal
[49:27] universe, and we're floating on a rock
[49:29] that's 4 billion years old, and you
[49:31] know, in in another 5 billion years it's
[49:33] all going to like the sun's going to
[49:34] implode, and we're going to there's
[49:36] going to be nothing anymore, and all
[49:38] these Sorry, I'm going down an
[49:39] existentialist rabbit hole. Um yeah, we
[49:42] don't want to do that. You know, we
[49:43] don't want to do that either. So, we
[49:44] don't want to again
[49:46] I think the like the take-home message
[49:47] here is like let's use the teachings
[49:50] skillfully.
[49:51] Like use them in the right context at
[49:54] the right time to develop skillful
[49:55] states.
[49:56] Let's not use them to like make excuses
[49:59] for things. Let's not use them to like
[50:02] cop out of anything. Let's not use them
[50:04] as a way to like uh you know, again as
[50:07] Dr. Jay was saying, to produce more
[50:08] suffering. We don't want to be doing
[50:09] that.
[50:10] We just want to be using these things
[50:11] skillfully.
[50:14] So, there's a question, but like I'm
[50:15] going to ask a question now. Like,
[50:18] it's not fair that you all get to ask me
[50:19] questions. I get to ask I I should get
[50:21] to ask questions as well. Look, I want
[50:23] to ask some nuns a question.
[50:26] I want to ask some nuns a question. What
[50:27] What do you How do you see
[50:29] interconnectedness in this way? Here's
[50:31] the microphone.
[50:36] How do How do you understand
[50:37] interconnectedness? And And do you think
[50:39] it's something that's useful?
[50:48] Yeah, in the context of karma, yeah.
[50:49] Yep.
[50:58] You want them to You want them to speak,
[50:59] don't you?
[51:00] Yeah.
[51:06] You can just think about it now. You
[51:08] don't have to think about Like
[51:10] I I only started thinking about this
[51:11] like a couple of hours ago, so.
[51:26] Let me ask another question then. Do you
[51:28] find thinking about interconnectedness
[51:31] useful in your own life then?
[51:38] >> Yeah, in a certain
[51:40] uh to a certain extent, very much so,
[51:42] because when um we see that everybody's
[51:44] interconnected, then we start thinking
[51:47] of other people also and not just
[51:48] ourselves, not looking at just things
[51:51] from our own perspective because when we
[51:54] think about just ourselves, looking at
[51:56] ourselves, we tend to have a very narrow
[51:58] view and we are just looking at the
[52:02] problems we have and things like that.
[52:04] So I I think for me personally I I had a
[52:07] point in my life when I was going
[52:10] through some difficulties and I kept
[52:12] looking
[52:13] at just those difficulties and
[52:17] it was actually Ajahn Brahm's story
[52:20] about the two bad bricks that kind of
[52:22] broadened the perspective for me and I
[52:24] saw that, you know, I was looking at my
[52:26] problems in terms of two bad bricks and
[52:28] there's all these 998
[52:31] good bricks that,
[52:33] you know, are part of my life and it's
[52:36] it's just bigger than just myself. So it
[52:39] brings into mind that not everything is
[52:43] just about me and going out, doing
[52:45] things, being
[52:47] connected to other people, looking at
[52:49] the broader picture, that really
[52:52] brought a different perspective to my
[52:54] life, opened up things and gave me a
[52:55] different view. And seeing
[52:59] things differently,
[53:00] the way others live and everything
[53:03] can really influence your my my own life
[53:07] and I think
[53:09] our own lives in general. So I think
[53:11] interconnectedness
[53:12] makes us think about things in a bigger
[53:14] perspective and not have such a narrow
[53:18] view. Yeah.
[53:19] >> Yeah. So and yeah, this is So the talk
[53:22] that I gave, again, it's not to take
[53:23] this idea of interconnectedness and go,
[53:25] "Hey, it's it's it's useless." You know,
[53:27] obviously it is useful. You know, as I
[53:29] as I was basically saying, we can
[53:31] actually see, yeah, things are bigger
[53:33] than me and I'm just not the whole cause
[53:35] of So I think it is something that's
[53:37] incredibly like useful as as well. So
[53:39] yeah, it's not like it's not like you
[53:41] should all like leave here and go and
[53:43] just say that
[53:44] into connectedness is
[53:47] >> I think I don't know what you say is
[53:48] very true. It depends on the individual
[53:51] because we have different tendencies.
[53:53] Some of us tend to blame ourselves a lot
[53:56] for everything. So I think in that case
[53:58] it's helpful to look at the bigger
[54:00] picture and some of us tend to like
[54:02] blame everything else. Every
[54:05] everything else and not look at
[54:07] ourselves. So in that case if you have
[54:08] that kind of personality maybe it will
[54:10] help to reflect on your own actions as
[54:13] well.
[54:13] as Ajahn was saying it depends on the
[54:16] individual. It depends on the condition
[54:19] and we should use those reflections to
[54:22] suit our self personality and the
[54:24] condition the situation. Yeah.
[54:27] >> Yeah. Yeah, I won't take credit for that
[54:28] cuz you said that. So So that but that's
[54:31] good. No, it's a good thing like I don't
[54:33] don't don't don't put that on me like
[54:34] that's your wisdom. That's not my that's
[54:36] not my but yeah again we should kind of
[54:38] think like what kind of personality
[54:40] characteristic do we have? So that's a
[54:41] really good that's a really good point
[54:43] and how can we skillfully use that?
[54:45] Again, you know, my my default is I'm
[54:47] the
[54:48] in this situation like so you know, for
[54:51] me like having that
[54:53] thinking of like interconnectedness in
[54:55] this way
[54:56] it can be a good thing.
[54:58] If I didn't have that I'm like hey,
[55:00] you're the
[55:01] then basically like thinking you know,
[55:04] thinking about interconnectedness in
[55:06] this way is probably not not a useful
[55:08] thing. So again, it's a like it's a
[55:09] really good point. It's up to the
[55:12] like the personal characteristic of the
[55:13] individual that really like will shape
[55:15] whether something like this is useful or
[55:17] not. So yeah, cool.
[55:19] Questions? Yeah. Questions?
[55:21] >> Ajahn, there's one in the room but I'll
[55:22] quickly mention you have
[55:24] some notes of appreciation I think for
[55:26] the discussion here
[55:28] from the online audience. So
[55:31] there there is a particular one I think.
[55:34] Thank you for the question and also for
[55:37] discussing the complex topic. Many many
[55:40] nuances to consider. So there's a
[55:42] question from the lady over here.
[55:44] >> Thank you Ajahn for your teachings. My
[55:45] question was around so we have our past
[55:49] karma.
[55:49] >> Yep.
[55:50] >> And then there's the real-time karma
[55:52] that we're creating.
[55:54] >> Yep.
[55:54] >> Um good and bad.
[55:56] >> Yeah.
[55:56] >> And so I wondered if you could speak
[55:58] [snorts] in terms of um the Buddha's
[56:00] teachings
[56:01] >> Yep.
[56:01] >> around how that real-time karma um can
[56:06] modulate the past karma.
[56:07] >> Yeah.
[56:09] Yeah, so this is this is actually where
[56:11] uh like I think developing you know the
[56:14] the right kind of qualities is is really
[56:16] really important. So um and a big one is
[56:19] something like sati sampajañña. So
[56:21] mindfulness and clear comprehension
[56:23] about what's what's actually occurring
[56:25] occurring.
[56:27] So sati of like knowing what is
[56:29] happening in the present, sampajañña of
[56:32] like clearly knowing it and having kind
[56:34] of insight into it. of um
[56:36] uh knowing what is skillful and knowing
[56:38] what is not skillful, knowing how that
[56:40] we should reflect on these things seeing
[56:42] it as something like it's impermanent,
[56:44] it's not self.
[56:45] So this this idea of like real-time like
[56:50] how do we react in this in this way?
[56:52] This is actually where developing a lot
[56:54] of the qualities and especially this
[56:56] quality of sati sampajañña is incredibly
[56:58] important.
[56:59] Because yeah, look a lot of the times
[57:01] most of us just respond to the world. Uh
[57:05] like I do a lot. Um
[57:07] uh a lot of the times we're kind of just
[57:09] acting on habit. We're just acting on
[57:13] you know the personality construct that
[57:15] we have.
[57:16] >> [gasps]
[57:16] >> But something like sati sampajañña
[57:17] allows us to kind of pause and slow down
[57:21] a little bit but then also see the
[57:23] situation clearly for what it is.
[57:26] So that idea of like how do we react and
[57:31] respond to the real-time karma? I think
[57:33] you know, this is something that we have
[57:34] to if we develop the right kinds of
[57:36] Dharma qualities, we we will have a
[57:39] little bit more insight into how we
[57:40] should or what is appropriate to act in
[57:43] any one particular situation.
[57:46] If we have that Sampajañña, we know like
[57:48] as as Dr. Jay was saying is like some of
[57:50] these things lead to suffering. Some of
[57:52] these things lead to the alleviation of
[57:54] suffering. So, if we have that kind of
[57:55] insight to know is like well, that will
[57:57] start to like guide us and start to
[58:01] nudge our karma a particular kind of
[58:03] way. So, so yeah, it's it's it's
[58:08] a lot of times we're kind of we're
[58:09] beholden to
[58:11] randomness in this way. But, if we
[58:14] develop some of these Dharma qualities,
[58:15] then this is actually the thing that
[58:17] allows us to
[58:18] shape karma intentionally
[58:22] as opposed to just being
[58:24] a recipient of it. Does that make sense?
[58:32] >> Uh
[58:33] so so we do have an online question.
[58:35] It's specifically for the nuns.
[58:37] >> Yes. Do that. Do that. Do that. Do that
[58:40] one.
[58:40] >> Uh
[58:41] it's from a it's from someone called
[58:43] Betty. She says, "For the nuns, in terms
[58:45] of societal and monastic structures
[58:48] and their influence on our personal
[58:50] persona and interactions, how do you do
[58:53] you see the interconnectedness and
[58:55] responsibilities as a nun? So, from the
[58:58] point of view of a nun,
[59:00] uh let me repeat. Um
[59:02] How do the social and monastic
[59:05] structures and
[59:06] their influences on our personal
[59:08] interactions, um how how does um
[59:11] interconnectedness and shapes their
[59:13] responsibility as a nun?
[59:19] >> I think it's a two-way relationship,
[59:22] right? Because I think that's how the
[59:24] Buddha set it up. Um
[59:27] The lay people support us and we in in
[59:29] return we do we share the Dhamma the
[59:32] experience of what we have learned. So
[59:34] in that way there is that
[59:35] interconnectedness. Yeah.
[59:38] Short answer.
[59:40] >> But so so what's what's the perspective
[59:42] of a nun on how you can potentially
[59:46] positively influence
[59:48] aspects of society as well then? From
[59:51] let's say from an like an individual
[59:52] level but then there's also like a
[59:54] communal level but then there's also
[59:55] like a social level. How do you think
[59:57] you how do you see your role in
[59:59] something like that and how do you
[1:00:00] influence it in some kind of way?
[1:00:03] >> But as I said the base basic thing is
[1:00:05] how the Buddha set it up. So um,
[1:00:08] we get the support and in return we also
[1:00:11] give the Dhamma teaching so that's
[1:00:12] through that way that's how we
[1:00:14] contribute back and influence it. Uh, in
[1:00:17] um,
[1:00:19] how we influence through our through
[1:00:21] teachings on what we can contribute.
[1:00:24] Yeah, basically that I think.
[1:00:28] >> And also as a as a nun for a female
[1:00:31] community is a quite benefit because um,
[1:00:34] there's a lot of things a female cannot
[1:00:37] um, talk to the monks.
[1:00:39] So the existence of the nuns we can help
[1:00:42] in that way because easy for the female
[1:00:45] to share how they feel because it really
[1:00:48] connect to the nuns because we are the
[1:00:50] same sex. So that's how we we can
[1:00:53] respond to them how we can assist them
[1:00:56] in the way of um, female um, thinking or
[1:00:59] emotional. So for more benefit for the
[1:01:03] female community
[1:01:05] uh, where we
[1:01:06] interact with the nuns.
[1:01:08] >> Yeah. No cuz yeah like you I think
[1:01:10] you're totally right there cuz like
[1:01:11] there's just things that I I I don't
[1:01:13] have a perspective on I and I don't
[1:01:15] understand.
[1:01:16] Um,
[1:01:17] and people ask me about it and I'm like
[1:01:18] I don't really know anything about
[1:01:20] >> [laughter]
[1:01:21] >> this. So I'm just kind of making things
[1:01:23] up as I go along. So, I think, you know,
[1:01:26] having that perspective is incredibly
[1:01:28] useful cuz like actually what like like
[1:01:31] here's uh
[1:01:32] put it all on the table. I'm kind of
[1:01:33] like half a psychopath kind of things
[1:01:35] like when people talk to me about their
[1:01:36] emotions, I'm like
[1:01:38] yeah, okay.
[1:01:39] >> [laughter]
[1:01:41] >> So, this is actually kind of why we, you
[1:01:43] know, need the nuns to have that kind of
[1:01:45] perspective as well to actually to be
[1:01:46] able to uh relate in that kind of way.
[1:01:49] So, I think it's an important role that
[1:01:51] you play because it's like
[1:01:53] >> [gasps]
[1:01:53] >> there's certain things like monks just
[1:01:55] like just don't get. They just don't
[1:01:57] get. People ask me about um
[1:02:00] a lot of things in the world. I was
[1:02:01] like, "Yeah, I don't get it." So, like I
[1:02:02] can't really give a good explanation of
[1:02:04] it.
[1:02:05] So, I think like having that perspective
[1:02:06] is like is incredibly it's incredibly
[1:02:08] important and you should share it more.
[1:02:14] One more question? Yep.
[1:02:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:02:23] >> [laughter]
[1:02:25] [panting]
[1:02:25] >> Are we talking about interconnected
[1:02:27] responsibility and and yeah, anyway,
[1:02:31] let's let's not go down the rabbit hole.
[1:02:32] >> Hi John. Um you know, I just want to
[1:02:35] uh it's in the news about Helen Haines.
[1:02:38] >> Yep.
[1:02:38] >> Um the MP who
[1:02:40] >> Yeah, yeah.
[1:02:40] >> suddenly on on that day she's now in
[1:02:43] hospital
[1:02:43] >> Yeah.
[1:02:44] >> with two legs amputated now. She's an
[1:02:46] excellent you know, what happened to her
[1:02:49] on that day? She didn't expect, right?
[1:02:52] >> Yeah.
[1:02:52] >> And something this guy came out of
[1:02:55] nowhere
[1:02:56] >> Yep.
[1:02:56] >> and rammed his rammed his SUV into her
[1:03:00] legs [snorts] and uh
[1:03:01] >> Yep.
[1:03:01] >> So, I mean,
[1:03:04] looking looking at her life
[1:03:06] >> Mhm.
[1:03:07] >> now it's completely changed, right? With
[1:03:09] with having
[1:03:11] >> no legs [snorts]
[1:03:12] and she'll have a completely different
[1:03:14] kind of life. So, what's you know,
[1:03:16] where's the interconnectedness in here?
[1:03:18] I mean, yeah, I she's going to make
[1:03:20] sense out of this
[1:03:22] um somehow
[1:03:23] because she she didn't expect this to
[1:03:26] happen.
[1:03:28] >> Yeah.
[1:03:28] >> on that day.
[1:03:29] >> Yeah.
[1:03:31] >> But it did happen, right?
[1:03:33] >> And uh you um
[1:03:35] in that place. So,
[1:03:37] what are your thoughts on that? How do
[1:03:38] you
[1:03:39] >> So, is the question here um
[1:03:42] just so I understand properly,
[1:03:43] is the question here how do you
[1:03:45] understand the randomness of that or is
[1:03:47] like how should
[1:03:49] uh Helen herself understand it and take
[1:03:53] >> Uh yeah, I I would say how would you
[1:03:56] like if you were
[1:03:58] advising her or if you were talking to
[1:04:00] her,
[1:04:02] how would she make sense out of this
[1:04:05] randomness this what it was
[1:04:07] uh in a in a sense you know, I I don't
[1:04:09] see it being connected because she
[1:04:12] didn't have any relationship with this
[1:04:14] person who
[1:04:17] um who who committed this crime, right?
[1:04:19] Um she didn't know him. Or he just came
[1:04:22] out of the blue and rammed his SUV into
[1:04:26] her. So,
[1:04:27] how would you like uh you know, like
[1:04:31] okay, she's one individual
[1:04:33] and of course it has not happened to any
[1:04:35] of us here, but
[1:04:37] something you know, uh how do you how
[1:04:41] would you what would you advise her, you
[1:04:44] know?
[1:04:45] >> Well, the you know, the first thing just
[1:04:47] kind of have to say is like it's you
[1:04:49] know,
[1:04:49] obviously like
[1:04:51] incredibly sympathetic for this thing
[1:04:53] that happened is you know, cuz there's a
[1:04:55] lot of random things that happen in the
[1:04:56] world that are just like not fair.
[1:04:59] Um so, and this is one of these things.
[1:05:01] So, kind of you know, extending
[1:05:03] extending that kind of like like
[1:05:06] compassion and kindness towards them
[1:05:08] like that's the I think that's the kind
[1:05:09] of the main thing. The second thing is
[1:05:11] is I like like I you know, and to be
[1:05:13] like incredibly honest about this is
[1:05:15] like I don't know.
[1:05:16] Like I really don't know what it's like.
[1:05:19] Um um so I think it would be a matter of
[1:05:22] like
[1:05:23] talking to her and listening to her
[1:05:25] about like what it's actually like for
[1:05:27] this thing to happen. How is How is she
[1:05:30] interpreting the experience itself?
[1:05:32] Because, you know, if I if I could kind
[1:05:34] of put a stamp on something like that
[1:05:35] and go
[1:05:37] look at it in the in this way, it's like
[1:05:39] I'm kind of I'm taking her autonomy away
[1:05:42] from this.
[1:05:43] So it would be a matter of going like
[1:05:45] how do you How does she herself actually
[1:05:47] see it? What is she taking out of this
[1:05:49] situation?
[1:05:51] Um what kind of resiliency herself is
[1:05:54] she drawing on? What What kind of like
[1:05:57] mind states are coming up that are
[1:05:58] causing her to like view the thing view
[1:06:01] view the situation in a particular kind
[1:06:03] of way?
[1:06:04] So I'm just I'm always just like very
[1:06:06] cautious about saying like what would I
[1:06:08] do in that situation cuz you know cuz I
[1:06:09] don't know. My first reaction is to ask
[1:06:13] questions about
[1:06:14] how that individual is actually
[1:06:17] uh viewing viewing something like that.
[1:06:19] So yeah, I I I don't want to kind of
[1:06:21] like jump on and give an answer to that
[1:06:23] because I think it's it's I think it's
[1:06:25] always imperative of the individual to
[1:06:29] like to
[1:06:31] take autonomy take autonomy for the way
[1:06:33] that they're viewing it. And if I could
[1:06:35] support it in any kind of way, if I
[1:06:37] could understand it in any kind of way,
[1:06:39] like that's that's all my kind of role
[1:06:41] really is in it. So yeah.
[1:06:44] Yeah.
[1:06:45] But with that we're
[1:06:46] we're at the we're at the at the
[1:06:47] announcement time now, so I'll pass it
[1:06:50] back over to Srichard.
[1:06:51] >> Thank you very much Srichard for
[1:06:53] fantastic [snorts] talk today.
[1:06:55] And to the nuns as well for
[1:06:56] contributing.
[1:06:57] >> Big big hand to the nuns, yeah.
[1:07:00] Again, do do you want them to come back?
[1:07:04] How How much How much do you want them
[1:07:06] to come back?
[1:07:07] >> A lot.
[1:07:08] >> A lot? Who Who Put your hand up if you
[1:07:10] want them to come back.
[1:07:12] >> Come back to give them a talk.
[1:07:13] >> Yeah, literally everybody. Yeah, yeah.
[1:07:15] Okay.
[1:07:17] Okay, thanks Arjun.