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Inspiration

Inside UVA's 60-Year Past-Life Memory Research Program

TT
The Telepathy Tapes
Oct 21, 2026
9 min read

From The Telepathy Tapes

Watch · 8

Some of the most unusual evidence about what happens after death is not kept in a temple, a laboratory, or a mystic's notebook. It sits in gray metal filing cabinets in an unremarkable building a few miles off the University of Virginia campus, in Charlottesville, where a research group has spent almost sixty years collecting accounts from children who say they remember living before. The episode of The Telepathy Tapes that examines this work, "The Reincarnation Records," follows host Kai Dickens into that building, through the history of the man who started it, and into a set of cases built on one deceptively simple method: write down what the child says before anyone checks it, then go find out whether it is true. What follows is an account of how that method came to be, why the researchers think it matters more than hypnosis or belief, and what the questions still left open actually are.

Read · 7 sections

Why does the reincarnation research hide a few miles from campus?

The first thing the episode establishes is the setting, because the setting is part of the story. On paper, the Division of Perceptual Studies belongs to the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia School of Medicine. In practice, it sits off by itself, miles from campus, and has since the day it opened. Dickens and his producer drove around looking for it, and the building turned out to be a plain two-story structure. Dr. Philip Cazzolino, who co-leads the Past Life Memory Research Program, explained the address was kept low-profile on purpose: "This work sometimes attracts some attention and we try to limit the number of people who know this exact address."

That reticence is not new. The division's origins go back to 1957, when Ian Stevenson, a psychiatrist in his late thirties, took a senior post at the university. Dr. Jim Matlock, an anthropologist who knew Stevenson and has studied his work for decades, described him in the episode as "a mid-career medical man who was hired by the University of Virginia as chairman of its Department of Psychiatry when he was not even 40." Dr. Mary Ann Pelivanova, the other co-lead, described a man who lived mostly for the work: "He worked very, very hard, barely taking any vacation." Colleagues recalled years when he essentially took Christmas off and nothing more.

How did a single academic contest change the field?

Stevenson's turn toward reincarnation came from a competition rather than a calling. As Matlock recounted it, the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research ran a contest for the best paper on survival after death. Stevenson entered and focused on reincarnation. He began reading for cases, and he narrowed a large pool down to 44 cases of children who spoke about having been someone their parents did not know. The filter he applied was strict: each case had to include at least six statements that could be verified. He wrote the paper and won the prize, and the win put reincarnation research in front of a wider audience for the first time.

The prize was the beginning, but the money came next. Cazzolino described how Chester Carlson, the inventor behind the Xerox machine, learned about purported reincarnation cases through his wife and then donated a million dollars to Stevenson in the 1960s, which he put at roughly nine million dollars in today's money. The gift came with an unusual kind of freedom. The university accepted the money and pushed the work out the door. Stevenson had to agree to leave the chairmanship of psychiatry and run the project on his own. The institution even had the division named the Division of Parapsychology, a choice Matlock framed as a way of putting Stevenson "out on this limb" by himself. Over time the name changed to Division of Perceptual Studies, the name on the door today, and staff simply call it DOPS.

Stevenson himself died in 2007, but the building still reads like his. His portrait hangs on the wall, his handwriting appears throughout the files, and his personal library, donated after his death, lines the shelves. Cazzolino said his own desk is surrounded by that library: "My office area is surrounded by his productivity and it is a constant daily reminder of how little I've actually done."

Why study children instead of using hypnosis?

This is the methodological pivot that makes the research distinct, and the episode spends real time on it. Before Stevenson, a common route into past lives ran through regression: a hypnotized or psychotherapy-guided adult recalls a previous life. Matlock argued that Stevenson's innovation was to go somewhere else entirely: "He actually went and talked to children and their families, children who spontaneously remembered previous lives."

The reasoning rests on contamination. Adults have lived whole lives absorbing books, films, stories, and rumors, and a memory that surfaces under hypnosis can be shaped by any of it, which makes it very hard to rule out. A child who says something unprompted, at the age when they are first talking, has had far less time to pick up such material. Pelivanova said in the episode that the children often began speaking early, around two and a half, which is part of why the team considers these early statements worth preserving. Matlock put the comparison bluntly: the children's spontaneous memories "turn out to be much, much more reliable, much more accurate factually than the stuff that comes up through regression."

The process became systematic. Cases come to the team because families write in or call, and the researchers follow a protocol that begins before any verification. Their first job is to record exactly what the child said, when, and in what context, often long before anyone can confirm a match. The point is to prevent the memory from being reshaped by the very act of checking it. Pelivanova described the files as a record of the child's words rather than the adults' interpretations, which is why the archive contains so many handwritten interviews and dated notes.

What does "cases of the reincarnation type" actually mean?

The phrase that shows up everywhere in this work is "cases of the reincarnation type," or CORT. Matlock explained the term originated with Stevenson, and it reflects the same caution that governed his method. Stevenson did not assert that reincarnation was occurring. He chose language that described a pattern: a case that looks like reincarnation. As Matlock put it, the term "is also very indicative of how he approached the phenomenon. He didn't say this is reincarnation, but it's something that looks like reincarnation."

That is a more interesting claim than it first sounds. A CORT case is defined by its features rather than its conclusion: a child who speaks of a previous identity, details that can be checked against a real person's life, and a family context that did not supply those details. The researchers are not asking whether the child is right about metaphysics. They are asking whether the child's statements fit a real, identifiable person who died, and whether that fit can be explained by ordinary means.

Stevenson's published work reflects this approach in volume and in title. His books include Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, Children Who Remember Previous Lives: A Question of Reincarnation, and a multi-volume series, Cases of the Reincarnation Type, which organized investigations by region: ten cases in India, ten in Sri Lanka, twelve in Lebanon and Turkey, and twelve in Thailand and Burma. Readers who want the methodological detail rather than the summary should begin with those volumes, since the episode itself is a survey and not a case-by-case reading.

What does a Sri Lankan case show about verification?

The episode's most vivid thread is a case from Sri Lanka, the kind of story the team returns to when explaining how verification works. The published description summarizes it: a young girl recalls a distant village, another family, and even a hidden container of money. Those three elements are what make the case useful as an example. A village and a family are specific and checkable. A hidden container of money is a concrete, physical detail that either exists where the child said it would or it does not.

That is the logic the research hinges on. A vague memory of "a long time ago" can be explained away. A named place, a particular household, and an object hidden where only one family would have known about it are the kinds of details investigators can test. The episode frames the open question plainly: if a child's memories match the life of someone who actually existed, what does that tell us? Is it coincidence, something science has yet to explain, or evidence of reincarnation? The program does not settle that question in this episode. What it demonstrates is how a claim becomes specific enough to be wrong.

Where does the work stand, and what should a skeptic take from it?

Dickens came into the season, he said, skeptical, with a mind that loves science and logic and flinches at much of this material. He had long filed questions about the afterlife under faith, reasoning that you could believe or disbelieve but not test. The Charlottesville archive is the reason he changed that category. Whatever one concludes about reincarnation, the method on display is something most people never see applied to the afterlife: prospective recording, independent verification, and a standing refusal to let a dramatic story stand in for a checked fact.

That is also the honest limit. The research is a body of case files, not a settled proof, and Stevenson's own framing was careful for exactly that reason. A reader who finishes the episode should come away with a clearer sense of what would count as evidence, and with a sharper suspicion of stories that cannot be checked at all. The archive is interesting because it treats a child's sentence as data.

Where to go from here

Start with the episode itself, which moves from the filing cabinets to the history to the Sri Lankan case, and pay attention to the moments where the researchers explain what they chose not to conclude. Then read Stevenson's own books, beginning with Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation for an overview, or the regional volumes of Cases of the Reincarnation Type for depth. Compare his spontaneous-memory method with the regression approach he rejected, and ask what each can and cannot rule out. The question the episode leaves on the table is the right one to keep: when a child names a village, a family, and a hidden place, is that coincidence, an unexplained fact, or something more?

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Transcript

[0:00] Hey everyone, this is Kai Dickens and

[0:02] you're listening to the Reincarnation

[0:03] Records from T T T Media.

[0:14] Welcome to episode 3. This is the

[0:16] episode that for me determines how

[0:17] seriously we can take everything that

[0:19] comes next. Like many of you, I'm sure,

[0:21] I came into this season skeptical. The

[0:23] part of my brain that loves science and

[0:25] logic still flinches at a lot of what

[0:27] we're talking about. And I think part of

[0:29] the problem is that I've always put

[0:30] questions about the afterlife in the

[0:32] category of faith. You could believe or

[0:34] not believe there's something after

[0:35] death, but how could you possibly

[0:37] research it, test it? And then I found a

[0:39] place that has spent almost 60 years

[0:41] trying to do exactly that. A place

[0:43] attempting to put science to something

[0:45] that I'd always assumed could only be

[0:47] taken on blind faith. And what I found

[0:50] there completely deconstructed my

[0:52] reality.

[0:53] >> We've been like circling the block.

[0:55] >> It's not in the campus?

[0:56] >> Last winter, my producer Cooper and I

[0:58] got on a plane and flew to

[1:00] Charlottesville. We rented a car and

[1:02] drove a few miles off the University of

[1:03] Virginia campus to a building that most

[1:06] people will never find on purpose, the

[1:08] Division of Perceptual Studies.

[1:10] >> Where is it Wait, did you just have a PO

[1:11] box?

[1:12] >> Yeah, I don't see it over there.

[1:14] >> You think it's this little building?

[1:15] >> It's got to be.

[1:18] >> All right, do you think we can park here

[1:19] legally?

[1:20] >> Yes.

[1:20] >> Okay.

[1:21] Is that him?

[1:23] Hey Phil, nice to meet you finally.

[1:25] >> Nice to meet you.

[1:26] >> The current co-lead of the Past Life

[1:27] Memory Research Program at DOPS, Dr.

[1:29] Philip Cazzolino, has met us outside and

[1:31] it is cold and windy.

[1:33] >> So, is this the university?

[1:34] >> We're off campus by a few miles. Uh we

[1:36] have a PO box that we often will give

[1:39] because

[1:40] this work sometimes attracts some

[1:42] attention and we we try to limit the

[1:44] number of people who know this exact

[1:45] address.

[1:46] >> Inside this quaint two-story building

[1:48] are filing cabinets, scores of them, and

[1:50] they're metal and gray and boring, the

[1:52] kind you'd walk past in any office in

[1:53] America and never think about again. But

[1:56] what's packed inside these is the

[1:57] largest collection of evidence anyone

[1:59] has ever gathered on a question I think

[2:01] we've all asked ourselves at some point.

[2:03] What happens after we die and does any

[2:05] part of us come back?

[2:07] >> These are all of the near-death

[2:09] experience files. Those filing cabinets

[2:12] in there are most of the past life

[2:14] memory files.

[2:15] >> So on paper, the Division of Perceptual

[2:17] Studies belongs to the Department of

[2:19] Psychiatry at the University of Virginia

[2:21] School of Medicine. In real life, it

[2:23] sits off by itself miles from campus and

[2:26] it has since the day it opened. And to

[2:28] understand why it exists at all, you

[2:30] have to go back to 1957 when a

[2:32] 38-year-old intellectual enters the

[2:34] university history.

[2:36] >> Ian Stevenson could be called the

[2:37] grandfather of reincarnation research.

[2:40] >> That's Dr. Jim Matlock, an

[2:41] anthropologist who knew Stevenson and

[2:43] has spent decades studying his work.

[2:45] >> He was a mid-career medical man who was

[2:48] hired by the University of Virginia as

[2:50] chairman of its Department of Psychiatry

[2:53] when he was not even 40.

[2:55] >> And this is Dr. Mary Ann Pelivanova. She

[2:58] co-leads the past life memory research

[2:59] program with Philip.

[3:01] >> Dr. Ian Stevenson was a very

[3:03] intellectual guy and he had his regular

[3:06] mainstream psychiatry career, nothing

[3:09] paranormal. He was very serious,

[3:12] extremely meticulous. He worked very,

[3:15] very hard, barely taking any vacation.

[3:19] >> There were some years here where he

[3:20] basically took Christmas off and that

[3:21] was pretty much it.

[3:23] >> And a year after he was hired to chair

[3:24] the Department of Psychiatry, an

[3:26] academic journal had a contest that

[3:28] would change not just the course of

[3:29] Stevenson's life, but the course of

[3:31] afterlife research forever. Here's Dr.

[3:33] Jim Matlock again.

[3:34] >> The Journal of the American Society for

[3:36] Psychical Research had a contest for the

[3:38] best paper on the subject of survival of

[3:41] death.

[3:42] >> And Ian Stevenson decided to enter the

[3:43] contest and focus his paper on

[3:45] reincarnation.

[3:46] >> He started then focusing his reading on

[3:48] finding cases and he found enough to

[3:51] whittle this down to 44 cases of

[3:55] children who spoke about having been

[3:58] somebody their parents did not know,

[4:00] that had made a minimum of six

[4:03] statements that were verified. And so he

[4:04] wrote this paper and won the prize. That

[4:07] brought him and the whole study of

[4:10] reincarnation to the attention of

[4:12] everybody.

[4:13] >> Including Chester Carlson, the

[4:15] millionaire inventor behind the Xerox

[4:16] machine. Here's Dr. Philip Kozolino

[4:19] again.

[4:19] >> Chester Carlson had a wife who had heard

[4:22] about some purported cases of

[4:23] reincarnation, and Carlson had a lot of

[4:26] money and he donated a million dollars

[4:28] to Ian Stevenson in the 1960s. Be about

[4:31] nine million dollars in today's dollars.

[4:33] >> Nine million dollars in today's money.

[4:36] Stevenson was given something almost

[4:38] nobody gets when they take on a

[4:39] controversial question, the funding, the

[4:41] freedom, and the time to actually go

[4:43] find out.

[4:45] >> And Carlson basically said, "Please go

[4:47] do this research. You're interested in

[4:49] it and I can fund it for you."

[4:50] >> So the university takes this huge sum of

[4:52] money from the Xerox guy, Chester

[4:53] Carlson, and then quite literally pushes

[4:55] the research out the door.

[4:57] >> Ian had to make a deal with the

[4:58] University of Virginia that he would

[5:00] leave the department, he wouldn't be the

[5:02] chair of the psychiatry department, and

[5:03] he could do this work. The university

[5:05] made him call his new division the

[5:07] division of parapsychology. That was the

[5:09] university's plan was to basically say,

[5:12] "You're going to go out on this limb,

[5:13] you're going to be there by yourself."

[5:14] Because that's you, not us.

[5:16] >> But eventually the Division of

[5:17] Parapsychology became the Division of

[5:19] Perceptual Studies, which is the name on

[5:21] the door today. And everyone here just

[5:23] calls it DOPS. And though Dr. Ian

[5:24] Stevenson died in 2007, he's still

[5:27] everywhere in the building. His

[5:28] portrait's on the wall, his

[5:29] handwriting's in the files, and his

[5:31] personal library lines the shelves.

[5:33] >> A lot of the books on this side are his

[5:35] private library that was donated to DOPS

[5:38] after his passing.

[5:40] And even just browsing the books, you

[5:42] can see how many different interests he

[5:45] had.

[5:45] >> You really can feel him all over this

[5:47] building. I mean, it just feels like all

[5:48] the books and the journals and the

[5:50] papers

[5:51] >> about this all the time. Even his

[5:53] picture over there, that was the

[5:55] portrait that they did when announcing

[5:58] this new division.

[5:59] >> And though Philip and Maryetta co-lead

[6:01] the division now, Philip's desk feels

[6:03] like it's being swallowed by this

[6:04] library.

[6:05] >> My office area is

[6:08] surrounded by his productivity and it is

[6:10] a constant daily reminder of how little

[6:12] I've actually done.

[6:14] >> The first thing I wanted to understand

[6:15] is how he actually did the work. How did

[6:17] this bookish psychiatrist earn the title

[6:19] of being the father of reincarnation

[6:21] research? Here's Dr. Jim Matlock again.

[6:23] >> Unlike what had been done before using

[6:26] regression or something like that, he

[6:27] actually went and talked to children and

[6:30] their families, children who

[6:32] spontaneously remembered previous lives.

[6:34] >> When he says regressions, he's meaning

[6:36] when adults remember a previous life

[6:38] through hypnosis or psychotherapy. And

[6:40] with regression, it's really hard to

[6:42] rule out the possibility that the

[6:43] memories were influenced by a lifetime

[6:45] of exposure to information.

[6:47] >> The children's spontaneous memories turn

[6:49] out to be much, much more reliable, much

[6:52] more accurate factually than the stuff

[6:55] that comes up through regression.

[6:57] >> What he discovered was so compelling in

[6:59] terms of the availability and

[7:01] fascinating features of these cases that

[7:03] he decided to dedicate the rest of his

[7:06] career just looking at purported claims

[7:09] of reincarnation or cases of the

[7:11] reincarnation type as we call them.

[7:14] >> Cases of the reincarnation type, CORT.

[7:17] >> The CORT CORT acronym comes from me

[7:20] indirectly.

[7:21] >> He coined that term and it's also very

[7:23] indicative of how he approached the

[7:25] phenomenon. He didn't say this is

[7:27] reincarnation, but it's something that

[7:29] looks like reincarnation.

[7:31] >> And that same caution shaped how

[7:32] Stevenson investigated CORT cases. He

[7:35] wasn't interested in how extraordinary a

[7:36] child's story sounded. He was looking

[7:38] for specifics, details that could

[7:40] actually be checked against a real

[7:42] person who has died. And here's Dr.

[7:44] Pelevanova again.

[7:45] >> The phenomenon shows up like this. A

[7:48] young child starts saying things like,

[7:51] "You were not my real mommy. You're not

[7:53] my real family. I used to have another

[7:55] family that I want to go back to." Or

[7:57] they might say things like, "When I was

[7:59] big, I used to do X and Y." Sometimes

[8:02] they would talk about having children or

[8:04] the jobs that they purportedly had and

[8:07] also how they died. And as you can

[8:10] imagine, if a parent doesn't dismiss

[8:12] that, if they take it seriously,

[8:14] especially if the child is a little bit

[8:16] distressed, they might wonder what's

[8:17] going on. So, they come to us, we do not

[8:20] solicit, they write us, and they report

[8:23] remarkably consistent characteristics

[8:26] that we're seeing in thousands of these

[8:29] children.

[8:30] >> What are those characteristics that you

[8:31] see over and over again?

[8:32] >> They talk about their profession, people

[8:34] in their lives. Often they talk about

[8:37] how they died, phobias that seem to be

[8:39] related to the purported past life. And

[8:41] so, when we hear of these accounts, we

[8:44] can't do much if the child is not saying

[8:46] anything specific, but if they're giving

[8:48] names, like names of who who they claim

[8:51] to have been, other people in their

[8:53] purported past life, where they lived,

[8:55] that allows us to start trying to verify

[8:58] this. And by verify, we mean is there a

[9:01] unique deceased person who matches what

[9:05] the child is saying? People would say,

[9:07] "Well, kids say the craziest things.

[9:09] It's all just fantasy." Which, okay,

[9:12] that's reasonable. Kids have an active

[9:14] imagination, but it is pretty remarkable

[9:17] if they say things without access to

[9:20] specialized knowledge that then end up

[9:23] matching the life and often death of a

[9:27] real person who existed.

[9:28] >> Here's Dr. Phil Cosolino again.

[9:30] >> The kids aren't confused about this. The

[9:32] kids will tell you, "No, when I was that

[9:34] person, I lived here." Even their

[9:36] parents will say, "We'll just be walking

[9:38] through the park and they'll say, 'I

[9:39] want to go on the slide.' Or Oh, you

[9:40] know, when I was in the car accident and

[9:42] died, oh look, a squirrel." Just out of

[9:44] the blue. And then 10 seconds later they

[9:45] were on to something else.

[9:47] >> Something I was quickly learning at Dobs

[9:48] was this was not a quick process.

[9:50] Children often started talking about

[9:52] these memories as early as 18 months,

[9:54] and the memories could continue for

[9:55] years, often being triggered by a new

[9:57] experience or a trip or even just

[9:59] learning more words.

[10:00] >> He would meet with the family multiple

[10:01] times, grandparents, aunts, uncles. He

[10:03] would talk to his teachers, neighbors.

[10:05] >> Eliminating any conventional explanation

[10:09] of this, like could the child have

[10:11] watched a movie or read a book or

[10:13] whatever else.

[10:14] >> He would attempt to identify, if at all

[10:17] possible, the deceased person, someone

[10:19] that actually lived that matches what

[10:21] the kid said. That's the goal.

[10:22] >> The really important thing to note is

[10:24] that Stevenson was investigating two

[10:26] lives at once. On one side, he

[10:28] documented everything the child and the

[10:30] family were reporting about the past

[10:32] life memories, and on the other,

[10:34] Stevenson and his colleagues were trying

[10:36] to find the deceased person the child

[10:38] was describing. And then he would

[10:40] compare the two of them.

[10:41] >> It's almost like a forensic style

[10:43] investigation where you're trying to dig

[10:45] into records of deceased people who

[10:47] match what the child is saying, from

[10:49] medical records, death certificates.

[10:52] >> He would even get local linguists come

[10:54] in and say, "Okay, if they use this word

[10:56] versus that word, what would that tell

[10:57] you?"

[10:58] >> Here's anthropologist Dr. Jim Tucker

[11:00] again.

[11:00] >> A lot of these kids will show the way to

[11:03] the former house. They'll show the way

[11:05] back there.

[11:06] >> And when the of a small child match with

[11:08] a real person's life who has died, the

[11:10] case is called solved.

[11:11] >> Solved is a term that we use when we are

[11:15] confident that we have found that

[11:17] deceased person that we believe matches

[11:20] the statement of the child.

[11:22] >> 70% of the cases in our database have

[11:24] been solved.

[11:25] >> Which sounds enormous, but Philip is

[11:27] quick to point out that 70% is not a

[11:29] success rate of all the cases out there.

[11:31] >> It's a conflated number because you take

[11:33] cases where you're more likely to

[11:35] identify them. And the goal always, as

[11:37] it is today, was to refute whatever

[11:39] claims were possible to refute, and to

[11:42] verify whatever could be verified.

[11:44] >> And not every case in the UVA archive is

[11:46] equally strong. In some of Dr.

[11:48] Stevenson's earlier investigations, he

[11:50] didn't hear about a child until well

[11:52] after the memories had begun. So, parts

[11:54] of those cases depended on families

[11:56] recalling what the child had originally

[11:58] said. Stevenson understood that was a

[11:59] limitation, and it's why the cases

[12:02] researchers consider the strongest are

[12:04] the ones where the child's statements

[12:05] were documented before anyone went

[12:07] looking for the deceased person that

[12:09] they might have been describing.

[12:10] >> The most important kind of case for us

[12:13] is ones where the parents or researcher

[12:15] somebody recorded the things that the

[12:18] child was saying and doing before

[12:21] verification so you can attempt. And

[12:23] when you have a record like that, then

[12:25] you don't need to worry about memories

[12:26] having changed, things being forgotten,

[12:29] or whatever. And if the parents don't

[12:30] know who the previous person was, how

[12:33] can they shape what the kids are saying?

[12:35] You've got that record.

[12:37] >> And one of the reasons Stevenson's

[12:38] research is incredibly valuable today is

[12:41] that many of his cases were incredibly

[12:42] isolated. Stevenson traveled all over

[12:44] the world to investigate children in

[12:46] remote communities, starting in the

[12:47] 1960s. And when he got there, he was

[12:49] often traveling by foot or by donkey or

[12:52] by cart, and in places with little

[12:54] access to landline phones or outside

[12:56] information. And from an evidentiary

[12:58] standpoint, that isolation matters

[13:00] because there were simply fewer

[13:01] conventional ways for a child or family

[13:04] to learn detailed information about a

[13:05] stranger who died miles away, sometimes

[13:08] countries away. Today, researchers have

[13:10] a problem Stevenson didn't encounter

[13:11] until late in his life, the internet.

[13:14] It's now much easier to find a deceased

[13:16] person that the child might be

[13:17] describing, and that makes it way harder

[13:19] to rule out the possibility that the

[13:20] child or the family could have found

[13:22] information about this deceased person

[13:24] on their own, which makes researchers

[13:26] look for something else, what they call

[13:28] private knowledge.

[13:29] >> Private knowledge, a kid expressing

[13:31] something that no one else could know or

[13:32] should know.

[13:34] And the private knowledge thing is

[13:35] really meaningful because wow, if you

[13:37] can verify that there is some hidden

[13:39] money in that tree trunk like the kid

[13:42] said that no one knew about, how would

[13:44] anyone have known that? How could that

[13:45] kid have known it? So that's why any

[13:47] kind of private knowledge is really

[13:48] meaningful.

[13:48] >> And that can take different forms,

[13:50] private family information, spontaneous

[13:52] recognition of people or places,

[13:54] controlled photo tests designed to see

[13:56] whether a child can identify someone

[13:57] significant in the deceased person's

[13:59] life, and we'll get to all of that

[14:00] shortly. For me, at this point on our

[14:02] rapid tour of the day, I had a handle on

[14:04] what could make one case stronger than

[14:05] another, but what I wanted to understand

[14:08] was what the evidence actually looked

[14:09] like up close. That's coming up after

[14:11] this break.

[14:17] Welcome back to the Reincarnation

[14:19] Records. So Philip, can we go to the

[14:21] conference room and look at a case?

[14:22] >> Mhm, yeah.

[14:23] >> We're making our way to the conference

[14:24] room now, and on the way we walk past a

[14:26] few display cases.

[14:27] >> The display cases are from the Ian era

[14:30] of investigations around the world.

[14:32] There are some gruesome photos of

[14:34] children with missing limbs, missing

[14:37] digits, birthmarks and defects, and a

[14:40] lot of weaponry, machetes, swords,

[14:42] knives, spears on the wall, and these

[14:45] are documented cases that he's published

[14:47] on on the connection between these past

[14:49] life memory claims of children and the

[14:51] biological connection to that past life

[14:54] that seemed to match. So how many

[14:56] birthmarks does this child have? How

[14:58] many defects? Do the birthmarks or

[14:59] defects correspond to the fatal wound of

[15:01] the past person?

[15:02] >> We're going to come back to these

[15:03] display cabinets later because on

[15:05] display next to them are books [music]

[15:07] totaling thousands of pages that

[15:09] Stevenson wrote on birthmarks and birth

[15:12] defects and how they tie into past life

[15:14] memories. And it's clear to me this is

[15:15] not some strange footnote in his

[15:17] research. It's an entire body of work,

[15:19] and we will return to it because it

[15:21] deserves more time. It deserves an

[15:23] entire episode.

[15:24] >> So, here's what we have.

[15:25] >> So, now we're walking into the

[15:26] conference room where Marietta and

[15:28] Philip have pulled out various cases

[15:29] from their trove of filing cabinets. And

[15:32] Philip puts one on the table.

[15:33] >> This is all one case. So, some of the

[15:36] files will be incredibly thin.

[15:38] >> But, what type of papers are in there? I

[15:39] mean, it is like 200 papers.

[15:41] >> Yeah, I mean, it will be everything from

[15:43] medical reports to interview transcripts

[15:45] to It just depends how interesting the

[15:47] case was and how many investigators were

[15:49] involved.

[15:49] >> Yeah.

[15:49] >> This is a case of a young girl named

[15:51] Disna. This is from 1971.

[15:54] >> The huge file folder is filled with

[15:56] handwritten notes and pictures, maps,

[15:58] interviews. And then he pulls out

[16:00] something that looks like a chart or

[16:01] table.

[16:02] >> Usually these files start with these

[16:04] coding forms.

[16:05] >> So, imagine a giant spreadsheet with

[16:07] columns for everything, names, dates,

[16:09] behaviors, phobias, birthmarks,

[16:11] comments, totaling over 200 variables

[16:13] that researchers look into for every

[16:15] case.

[16:16] >> Almost always you're going to find this,

[16:18] the tabled statements and recognitions,

[16:22] behaviors of the child under

[16:25] investigation. So, the person In this

[16:27] case, we're looking at Disna. She

[16:29] started talking early, about 2 and 1/2,

[16:31] 3. The first thing she started talking

[16:33] about was, "I'm not from here." That she

[16:35] lived in this village, Witoa. Had a son,

[16:37] Mahataya. Son had a woman, quote in

[16:41] quotes, "Place in river where she used

[16:43] to bathe. Drum owned by previous

[16:46] personality."

[16:47] >> Every possible detail is tracked in this

[16:49] document.

[16:49] >> what's next to that is just like, all

[16:51] right, who was the informant and

[16:52] reference for that? And where in this

[16:54] file would you find that? And then if

[16:56] there's a verification, who did the

[16:58] verification and where would you find

[17:00] that? And then the final column is

[17:02] comments.

[17:03] >> Okay, and then did she say the name of

[17:04] the person she thought she was?

[17:05] >> Uh Babona or Babonona is the name that

[17:09] she eventually started coming up with.

[17:11] >> Okay, so what else?

[17:12] >> Here's a good one. So, this child was

[17:13] saying, "I lived alone as this past

[17:15] person." And there are some

[17:17] verifications for that. And then the

[17:19] note says the past person did not live

[17:21] alone before she died, but did live

[17:24] alone for 5 years up to 6 months before

[17:27] she died.

[17:27] >> Okay, so that statement wasn't wrong,

[17:29] but it wasn't like a match either. Did

[17:31] Stevenson note that anywhere?

[17:32] >> Yes. So, here's here are some

[17:35] handwritten notes.

[17:36] >> And it turns out Stevenson did. He noted

[17:38] the ambiguity as well as the flat-out

[17:40] misses when they occurred.

[17:41] >> When you look at his handwritten notes,

[17:42] I often wonder if anyone ever asked him

[17:44] maybe maybe try your other hand?

[17:46] >> It's just so bad.

[17:48] >> Okay, so what's that? It's like a

[17:49] drawing of a kitchen?

[17:50] >> So, this is interesting because this is

[17:52] a case where Disna had claimed that as

[17:55] this past person, she had buried

[17:58] treasure in the hearth in a cigarette

[18:00] tin.

[18:01] >> And this wasn't unique to Disna.

[18:03] Stevenson encountered this enough times

[18:05] that he gave the phenomenon its own

[18:06] name.

[18:07] >> He coined this phrase hidden treasure.

[18:09] There are select number of cases in our

[18:11] database where the child claimed that

[18:13] they had hidden treasure, valuables in

[18:16] their past life, but no one knew about

[18:17] it. And some of those cases people

[18:19] discovered stuff when they didn't know

[18:21] it was there, which is really

[18:22] fascinating.

[18:23] >> And I think it's important to put the

[18:24] word treasure in context because

[18:26] treasure is relative.

[18:27] >> When I went through a number of the

[18:29] files of these claims, it was trinkets,

[18:32] something shiny, money worth potentially

[18:34] today's dollars of 70 cents.

[18:37] >> And though that will sound like nothing

[18:38] to most of our listeners, 70 cents in

[18:40] 1960 Ceylon could represent a day's

[18:42] wages for a laborer. Here's

[18:44] anthropologist Dr. Jamison again.

[18:46] >> You know, back in the '60s in rural

[18:48] areas in Asia, there weren't banks or

[18:50] anything. And so, valuables were hidden,

[18:53] right? In various places. And if people

[18:56] die without telling anyone where those

[18:59] valuables are, then this is a problem

[19:03] we call unfinished business.

[19:06] >> So, back to Disna because she's one of

[19:07] the kids with a case in these metal

[19:09] filing cabinets who talked about burying

[19:11] money in a past life with such detail

[19:13] that investigators could draw a picture

[19:14] of it.

[19:16] >> Okay, so here's this kitchen and here's

[19:18] the hearth that was drawn based on

[19:20] Disna's description. And basically you'd

[19:22] expect to find the tin somewhere in

[19:24] here.

[19:25] >> And this little girl, Disna, had never

[19:26] stepped foot in this house or even the

[19:28] village where she claimed the house

[19:29] stood. And in Disna's case, her

[19:31] recollections of buried money were

[19:33] correct.

[19:33] >> Stevenson verified that the past

[19:36] personality's surviving family had found

[19:39] that cigarette tin under a grinding

[19:41] stone in the kitchen. It was basically

[19:44] next to or under the hearth. And the

[19:46] money was not in the tin, but it was

[19:47] there buried as well.

[19:49] >> Okay, and then what's the this?

[19:50] >> So these are things that basically they

[19:52] would then take to the past person's

[19:54] family and say, "Well, these are things

[19:55] that we've been told. Did your

[19:58] relative who died, did they have a son?

[20:01] Did they own a drum?"

[20:02] >> And in this case, they did find a match.

[20:04] >> Bona, it turns out that is either the

[20:06] official name or what they called the

[20:08] past person.

[20:09] >> And the village Disna talked about,

[20:10] Widowa, was a real place as well. It was

[20:13] about 3 mi away and Disna had never been

[20:16] there. And I want to get to the moment

[20:17] where Disna is taken to her old village,

[20:19] but first Marietta, who's walked back

[20:21] into the room, describes the different

[20:23] types of recognition tests that we might

[20:25] find in these files.

[20:26] >> I want to differentiate here between

[20:29] recognitions that just happened in the

[20:31] environment, like where the kid led to

[20:33] that village and said, "Hey, this was my

[20:35] mom or this was my murder." That is what

[20:38] we would call an uncontrolled

[20:41] recognition. So it just happens

[20:42] naturally in the environment as the

[20:44] child is interacting in it. And then

[20:47] later on, especially in the American

[20:49] cases, we started using what we call

[20:51] controlled recognitions. So this is

[20:53] specifically once that previous person

[20:56] is identified, then the investigator can

[20:59] create a stimuli set where one picture

[21:02] is a picture of something real from the

[21:05] previous person's life, say the school

[21:07] that they went to, and then use a a few

[21:10] other pictures as foils, so something

[21:12] that looks like the actual target for

[21:15] recognition, but is not that. And then

[21:18] they would present it to the child and

[21:20] see if one of the pictures is familiar

[21:23] or not. So that I just want to make this

[21:26] differentiation between controlled and

[21:28] uncontrolled. Yeah.

[21:29] >> So noted in Disney's file, there was an

[21:31] uncontrolled recognition that happened

[21:33] when she was very little and her family

[21:35] took her to Wedewa, the village where

[21:37] she claimed she lived and died in her

[21:38] past life.

[21:39] >> They didn't know the family at all and

[21:41] there's many pages here where they

[21:43] walked through the town and it they say

[21:45] very clearly Disney walked past a number

[21:46] of homes that any one of them could have

[21:48] been the right home and went to the home

[21:51] that was the correct home of the past

[21:52] personality and didn't [music] walk up

[21:54] to the front door, but walked around the

[21:57] side and everyone was looking and there

[21:59] was a unseen from the road door and she

[22:02] walked right in that door.

[22:03] >> Jeez, that's so wild.

[22:05] >> And the people who live there who were

[22:06] part of the past person's family said,

[22:08] "Yeah, that's the door that that past

[22:09] person would have walked in. They

[22:10] wouldn't she would never have walked in

[22:12] the front door."

[22:13] >> So that was one case, one child and we

[22:15] just went through like a tenth of it.

[22:18] But what's mind-boggling is Stevenson

[22:19] and the researchers who followed him did

[22:21] this thousands of times and all those

[22:24] interviews, medical records, maps,

[22:26] recognitions, hits, misses, behaviors,

[22:28] even tiny details like that cigarette

[22:30] tin, eventually had to be organized in a

[22:32] way that researchers could compare one

[22:34] case to another. And there's literally a

[22:36] rule book for how to do it and Dr. Mary

[22:38] had a Pelivanova pulls it out.

[22:40] >> We have this coding manual. It's

[22:42] literally this thick.

[22:44] >> There are 208 variables in our database.

[22:47] >> He developed all of these criteria and

[22:49] applied them to the documentation of

[22:52] thousands of these cases.

[22:54] >> And this is where all those filing

[22:55] cabinets that we saw on the way in

[22:57] become something much bigger because the

[22:59] team at DOPS is digitizing the archive,

[23:01] turning decades of case files into

[23:03] searchable data.

[23:04] >> It's an electronic database that

[23:07] currently has 2,254

[23:11] cases. These are the cases that are

[23:14] considered solid enough and

[23:17] representative enough of this phenomenon

[23:19] to be entered in the database.

[23:21] >> So, just to put this in perspective, you

[23:23] know, Stevenson hadn't spent his career

[23:25] just collecting a handful of

[23:26] extraordinary stories. He and those who

[23:28] followed after him investigated

[23:30] thousands of children across countries

[23:32] and cultures, religions, and decades.

[23:35] And when you collect that many cases and

[23:36] they're all coded with the same 200-plus

[23:38] variables, you can start asking much

[23:40] more interesting questions. Like, does

[23:42] the data show any patterns? And it turns

[23:44] out it does. So, for starters, is the

[23:47] type of lives these kids remember

[23:48] having.

[23:49] >> It's overwhelmingly lives of normal

[23:52] people. It's not like the trope someone

[23:55] remembers being Cleopatra or Napoleon.

[23:58] >> But, while the lives they remember are

[24:00] often ordinary, the ways they end are

[24:03] not.

[24:03] >> 61%

[24:05] of our children can tell you how they

[24:08] think they died in this past life. And

[24:09] of those, 75% described a violent

[24:12] traumatic death in their past life.

[24:14] >> A traumatic death. And we don't know why

[24:18] that is, but we also hypothesize that

[24:20] maybe some aspect of this trauma from

[24:24] this purported past life can transfer to

[24:27] this current life and make the child act

[24:30] traumatized even if they haven't had

[24:32] traumatic exposure.

[24:33] >> That's so interesting, cuz you know,

[24:35] some of the cases we're already looking

[24:36] at, you know, these boys have phobias

[24:38] connected to their traumatic death.

[24:40] Actually, that makes me wonder

[24:41] something. Do boys report past lives

[24:43] more often?

[24:44] >> There's more boys than girls talking

[24:46] about past life memories. I think the

[24:48] percentage is something like 60 to 40 or

[24:51] 65 to 35. It is fairly imbalanced.

[24:55] >> Wow.

[24:55] >> In the database, most children, when

[24:58] they talk about a past life, they talk

[25:00] about a life of the same sex, which is

[25:02] already pretty fascinating. In a small

[25:05] percentage of cases, I think it's about

[25:06] 10%, the children talk about a life of

[25:09] the opposite sex.

[25:10] >> So, if most children are remembering a

[25:12] past life of the same sex, you know, why

[25:14] would boys be showing up more in the

[25:16] data than girls?

[25:17] >> There's possibly a cultural element that

[25:20] boys are being listened to more and that

[25:22] their claims are being taken more

[25:25] seriously than girls' claims. That may

[25:28] be a factor, but the other interesting

[25:30] element that a lot of these cases are

[25:32] traumatic deaths. Men in general are

[25:35] more likely to die of unnatural or

[25:38] violent accidents. It's interesting. And

[25:41] in that database

[25:42] >> And then she brought up a pattern,

[25:44] something they've measured that isn't

[25:45] something I would have ever thought to

[25:47] even ask about. How much time passed

[25:49] between the last person's death and the

[25:51] new child's birth. And obviously, they

[25:53] can only figure that out with

[25:54] quote-unquote solved cases where they

[25:56] know the dates of both. But at DOPS,

[25:58] they have a name for this.

[25:59] >> The intermission period, the time

[26:01] between a child's claims of dying and

[26:04] when they were born.

[26:05] >> When the child talks about a life that

[26:08] ended traumatically, the intermission

[26:10] period is shorter.

[26:12] >> We just got a paper published in the

[26:14] psychology of consciousness looking at

[26:16] how unexpectedness of dying in the

[26:19] purported deceased person predicts a

[26:22] significantly faster

[26:25] intermission period. So, Dr. Sadighi,

[26:28] she saw something in the data.

[26:29] >> Dr. Saeeda Sadighi is one of the

[26:31] post-doc researchers at DOPS, and she'll

[26:33] be included in a future episode when we

[26:35] do a deep dive into the intermission

[26:36] period. But here's a quick bite of her

[26:38] explaining her findings.

[26:39] >> For the most unexpected, like immediate

[26:42] death, the intermission time is 12

[26:44] months. The most expected, which means

[26:48] the person was ill and they expected it

[26:50] to happen, the median intermission time

[26:52] is 21 months.

[26:54] >> The median intermission time is 21

[26:56] months when a death is expected, and

[26:58] it's 12 months when it isn't. Trauma

[27:00] seems to speed something up.

[27:02] >> There seems to be some sort of urgency

[27:05] in these past lives to manifest quicker

[27:10] when it's trauma versus not.

[27:12] >> I want to pause here because when I was

[27:14] standing in that room, this part of our

[27:15] conversation really affected me and not

[27:17] scientifically, but spiritually.

[27:20] Because first off, if there really is an

[27:22] intermission period, where are we going?

[27:24] Is it the same place people go when they

[27:26] explain a near-death experience? Is it

[27:28] heaven? Is it somewhere else? And it

[27:31] comes up in almost every culture.

[27:33] And the other thing about this

[27:34] intermission period is it kind of made

[27:36] reincarnation feel more just to me.

[27:39] Because if you're 5 years old and your

[27:41] life ends and you're robbed from all the

[27:43] experiences that would give you a full

[27:45] and round life, there's something

[27:47] comforting to me about the possibility

[27:49] you get another turn. And it makes sense

[27:51] you'd go back quicker. Like if you're

[27:53] playing a video game and someone kills

[27:55] off your character 5 minutes into the

[27:57] game, you're like, "Hell yeah, I'm

[27:58] hitting restart." But if you spend hours

[28:01] going through all the levels and going

[28:02] through the entire game and conquering

[28:04] it, you know, you might not want to play

[28:06] right away. I for one would want to

[28:07] chill for a bit. I wouldn't want to do

[28:08] the whole thing again. So, all this

[28:11] intermission period stuff made

[28:12] reincarnation feel a little less like

[28:14] some endless cycle that you're trapped

[28:15] in and something that we might actually

[28:17] have agency and even free will over. So,

[28:20] whoo.

[28:21] But for right now, let's go back to the

[28:23] data because buried among the 200-plus

[28:25] variables are some wild things that

[28:27] happen less often, but are much harder

[28:29] to know how to explain or what to do

[28:30] with. And one of them is xenoglossy.

[28:32] >> So, xenoglossy is speaking a language

[28:36] that you have no natural explanation for

[28:39] understanding or being able to speak.

[28:40] You've never been exposed to this

[28:42] language, never had training in it, and

[28:44] yet somehow you're speaking it.

[28:45] >> And this is not speaking in tongues.

[28:47] Xenoglossy means an actual identified

[28:49] language. And in their database, there

[28:51] are 40 cases of young kids speaking a

[28:54] language they've never been taught. And

[28:56] the kids in these cases could just be

[28:57] using random words or full-on sentences.

[29:00] >> There was an interesting case where

[29:03] there was a boy who claimed to be

[29:05] Japanese in his past life. And anytime

[29:08] the boy fell, like at the park or at

[29:09] home, would say a word that they didn't

[29:12] understand. And it turns out they found

[29:14] out that he was saying the Japanese word

[29:18] for ouch. And the other thing this one

[29:20] boy did that was really interesting. So,

[29:22] the parents, they were American and they

[29:24] would say sukiyaki, that Japanese food,

[29:27] sukiyaki. But apparently that's not how

[29:29] you say it in Japanese. You say

[29:30] sukiyaki.

[29:32] And the kid corrected their

[29:33] pronunciation as to how you say that,

[29:36] which is remarkable to me because who in

[29:37] the world would know that?

[29:38] >> Okay, so these words were happening that

[29:40] weren't in anywhere in the world that

[29:43] you know. But was he also saying that he

[29:44] used to live in Japan or

[29:46] >> Yeah, his past life memories were in

[29:47] from Japan.

[29:48] >> And sometimes kids can even carry on a

[29:50] conversation in a language they've never

[29:52] been taught.

[29:53] >> These Burmese twin girls were, according

[29:56] to their parents, speaking to each other

[29:58] responsively in Japanese.

[30:00] >> So, even though this is another Japanese

[30:02] case, it's a completely different one,

[30:04] right? Like the first little boy we just

[30:05] talked about, he was born into American

[30:07] family.

[30:08] >> Yeah.

[30:08] >> But it's not like Japanese shows up more

[30:10] often than any other language when it

[30:11] comes to xenoglossy.

[30:12] >> No.

[30:12] >> Okay.

[30:13] >> Okay, good.

[30:13] >> Yeah.

[30:13] >> So, these Burmese twins, they both were

[30:17] expressing shared memories of having

[30:20] lived as Japanese brothers who died on

[30:23] the same battlefield at the same moment

[30:25] in World War II. Ian was able to verify

[30:27] later that there was actually British

[30:29] bombing going on at that point in that

[30:32] part of the world where they had claimed

[30:33] they died. Ian went as far as to find

[30:35] like the war evidence.

[30:36] >> And and the lives they recalled were

[30:38] from where?

[30:39] >> Japan.

[30:39] >> And did someone verify that they were

[30:41] actually speaking Japanese?

[30:42] >> Yeah, exactly. They had people come in

[30:44] and say, "Yeah, the words they were

[30:45] using is Japanese." Now, again, these

[30:47] are young children.

[30:48] >> And they never been taught Japanese.

[30:49] >> No. There are reports, and you see them

[30:50] in the file. And once they were speaking

[30:53] Burmese, the parents would say, "We

[30:55] would always be asked, 'Where are they

[30:56] originally from?'" because they're

[30:58] speaking with like an accent, like

[31:00] they're not from here originally. So,

[31:02] that's the phenomena. Those are some of

[31:04] the examples of the cases that we had

[31:05] over 40.

[31:06] >> And here's another detail that makes

[31:07] those 40 cases a little harder to shrug

[31:09] off.

[31:10] The language wasn't random.

[31:12] >> Every one of the 40 cases, whatever the

[31:14] language was, connected to where they

[31:16] were from in their alleged past life.

[31:18] >> And this is where the cases get harder

[31:20] to think of as children simply knowing

[31:22] unusual information. Because sometimes

[31:24] what seems to carry over isn't a fact at

[31:27] all. It's something deeply personal,

[31:29] like a phobia or skill, a way of

[31:31] behaving, even a vice.

[31:33] >> Preferences for food, for music, hobbies

[31:36] like guitar, even negative preferences.

[31:40] We've had children who, when they were

[31:41] very young, wanted cigarettes, asked

[31:43] their parents for cigarettes. All of

[31:45] this because, apparently, they're saying

[31:48] these were things that mattered to them

[31:49] in this past life that they lived.

[31:51] There's this famous story of a boy where

[31:54] he really liked hats, but like fedora

[31:56] style hats. And we have in our database

[31:58] the ability to differentiate, is this

[32:00] just a unique little kid who's got a

[32:02] funny style of clothing, or is this

[32:03] style clothing specifically directly

[32:05] verified to have been linked to the way

[32:08] that past person dressed?

[32:10] >> So, it's not just that the children are

[32:11] remembering facts about a person. Pieces

[32:14] of that personality are showing up

[32:16] inside of them. It's not just, you know,

[32:18] I know things about this person. It's,

[32:21] "This was me."

[32:22] >> Not every strong case has a xenoglossy.

[32:24] Not every strong case has birthmarks or

[32:26] phobias. But I'm starting to think every

[32:28] strong case has to have that

[32:30] psychological core identity connection.

[32:33] And then it can manifest physically,

[32:34] biologically, in numerous ways. It could

[32:37] be a language. it could be a birthmark,

[32:39] it could be something else, a phobia.

[32:41] The other stuff is important, but it

[32:42] comes secondary to that core

[32:44] continuation of something.

[32:46] >> And if you think all of that strange,

[32:48] there's another pattern in these files

[32:49] that for me moves into a much more

[32:51] unexplained space. That's coming up

[32:53] after this break.

[32:58] Welcome back to the Reincarnation

[33:00] Records. There's another pattern in

[33:01] these files that for me moves into a

[33:03] much more unexplained space. Because

[33:05] sometimes the first nod to reincarnation

[33:08] doesn't come from the child at all. It

[33:10] comes in a dream visitation from what

[33:12] seems like a soul or consciousness to

[33:15] often a parent who's expecting a baby or

[33:18] a parent who's grieving the loss of

[33:19] someone who's died. And it's not

[33:21] necessarily always parents. Here's

[33:22] Philip.

[33:23] >> Our variable in the database covers both

[33:25] announcing dreams and departing dreams.

[33:28] So, departing dreams are look for me in

[33:31] this other place cuz I'm going to come

[33:33] back for you in this other body. Right?

[33:35] They mostly occur after the death before

[33:38] the claimed rebirth. Announcing dreams

[33:40] are a mother or even a father in their

[33:43] dreams being told I'm coming to you.

[33:45] >> Come on. So, announcing dreams commonly

[33:48] happen when parents who are expecting a

[33:50] baby are visited by the consciousness or

[33:53] soul of this incoming life to say, "Hey,

[33:55] I'm on my way. I chose you." And the

[33:57] departing dreams are when the

[34:00] consciousness of someone who's died come

[34:02] to their grieving loved ones and say,

[34:04] "Hey, I'm going to be reborn in Akron,

[34:06] Ohio. Find me there."

[34:07] >> This is crazy. How often does the

[34:08] annunciation dreams happen?

[34:11] Like is that common?

[34:11] >> know. Philip, do you have the

[34:13] the database pulled up?

[34:15] >> We just have announcing departing

[34:17] numbers, and we can get you both

[34:19] frequencies and what percentage of our

[34:21] database had some or more.

[34:22] >> It's okay. You can send it to me later.

[34:23] >> Yeah, I will.

[34:24] >> We asked to see an actual case, and Mary

[34:26] at a pulled a file from Turkey.

[34:27] >> Okay, so this is the case of Suleyman

[34:30] Çapar. It is a Turkish case. So,

[34:35] briefly, Sulaiman was born in 1966.

[34:40] While his mother was pregnant with him,

[34:42] she had this dream where a man came to

[34:45] her on horseback, and he said, "I was

[34:49] killed with a blow to the head with a

[34:52] shovel, and I want to stay with you in

[34:55] particular, and I don't want to go to

[34:56] anyone else." And when he was born, his

[34:59] family noticed that he had this

[35:00] birthmark in the back of his head, this

[35:03] little area that was depressed. It was

[35:06] just there from the moment that he was

[35:07] born. As soon as the child starts

[35:09] speaking, one of the very first things

[35:11] he said was that he wanted to go to the

[35:14] stream, and that his home was by the

[35:17] stream. When he started talking a bit

[35:20] more, he started talking about this past

[35:22] life where he was a miller in a

[35:25] neighboring village, and he had gotten

[35:28] himself into some kind of fight with a

[35:31] customer, and the customer had killed

[35:33] him. He kept talking about his other

[35:35] life, so at some point the mom decided

[35:38] to let him take her to the stream and

[35:40] just let him explore whatever he was

[35:42] talking about. So, he led the way to a

[35:46] neighboring village called Ekber, and

[35:49] there he led her to a mill on the

[35:52] stream. And he also pointed to a house

[35:54] that he said, "This used to be my

[35:56] house."

[35:56] >> Identifying the village, the house, the

[35:58] mill, the stream, it's all in the file,

[36:00] and most of those statements happened

[36:01] around the age of two.

[36:02] >> And his second visit was when he was two

[36:05] and a half, he met the mother of that

[36:08] presumed previous personality, the man

[36:10] who was killed.

[36:11] >> Wait, accidentally? Like, did she he

[36:13] what, just run into her on the road?

[36:14] >> Yeah, and a lot of these, once you go to

[36:17] the village, like, a lot of people seem

[36:18] to be hanging outside or in the field.

[36:21] So, as you're walking about the village,

[36:23] you can find people. Yeah.

[36:25] >> And after identifying the mill where the

[36:26] boy said he used to work, his former

[36:28] house, and the mother from his past

[36:30] life, they found the name of the man who

[36:32] matched and who was killed.

[36:33] >> Mehmet Bekler is the name of the

[36:36] deceased individual, and he was killed a

[36:39] few years before Süleyman was born. One

[36:42] day, he was just at the mill doing his

[36:44] normal work, and this other guy comes by

[36:48] with his wheat, and there's a line of

[36:50] customers waiting, and this guy insists

[36:54] to have his wheat milled first because

[36:56] his family was hungry. And so, it seemed

[36:59] like he was pushy, and then Mehmet

[37:02] Bekler, the miller, told him, "No, you

[37:04] have to wait in line. All of these

[37:06] people were here before you. I can't

[37:08] just take you first." And then this

[37:10] fight happened, and this other guy hit

[37:13] him on the head with a shovel. Dr.

[37:15] Stevenson was able to consult the court

[37:17] proceedings and also the autopsy of

[37:20] Mehmet Bekler. So, now, in terms of

[37:23] statements that the child made that were

[37:26] verified,

[37:27] >> And these were statements said by the

[37:28] boy prior to them finding Mehmet, the

[37:30] man who was killed.

[37:31] >> "I had a family, I had a wife, I had two

[37:35] sons and a daughter," which was exactly

[37:37] the number of children and their sexes

[37:39] that Mehmet had. He talked about having

[37:42] a father who took a second wife, which

[37:45] at the time was illegal in Turkey. He

[37:47] talked about having a mill, and then he

[37:49] also said a lot of specific things about

[37:51] how Mehmet Bekler was killed.

[37:54] >> Geez. Was he familiar with the court

[37:55] documents when he said that, or was that

[37:57] just kind of out of the blue?

[37:58] >> No, these court documents were only

[38:00] accessible, and they're in the file, to

[38:03] Ian Stevenson through his local

[38:05] informants.

[38:06] He said he was hit on the head. Now,

[38:09] Süleyman didn't specifically talk about

[38:11] the shovel. The shovel only came through

[38:13] in that announcing dream.

[38:15] >> Wow.

[38:16] >> So, the only mention of the shovel from

[38:18] the family was from the dream his mother

[38:20] had before he was born.

[38:22] And Stevenson was able to verify the

[38:24] shovel was the murder weapon when he

[38:26] received the court case, something the

[38:28] family did not have access to.

[38:29] >> Very interesting.

[38:31] >> Yeah, but I think we covered so much.

[38:33] I'm so glad we were able to get you sit

[38:34] down again.

[38:35] >> I'm grateful, too, cuz I just felt like

[38:37] there was a lot of stuff.

[38:38] >> By the end of the first day, we'd gone

[38:39] through so much material I could barely

[38:41] hold all of it in my head, and I was

[38:43] exhausted.

[38:44] >> Gosh, this has been a lot, and I mean, I

[38:47] have to be honest, like I actually don't

[38:48] feel well. Like I feel kind of sick. And

[38:51] like I don't know

[38:53] if I'm just overwhelmed. I just feel

[38:55] really

[38:56] I don't know.

[38:57] >> If we accept that this is real, is it a

[39:00] glitch? Most people, if they lived a

[39:02] past life, they don't seem to remember.

[39:04] Is it by design that you don't remember?

[39:07] This is where we get into the

[39:08] metaphysical stuff. Many people actually

[39:10] speculate that we're meant to forget.

[39:12] You get a clean slate, but why do some

[39:15] people and some kids remember? Is it

[39:17] serving a purpose? And maybe it is. We

[39:19] do talk a little bit about what we would

[39:21] call the unfinished business hypothesis,

[39:24] but we don't have the empirical data

[39:26] yet.

[39:27] >> Let's pretend for a second this is

[39:28] reincarnation. I don't think it's

[39:30] supposed to work this way, right? Like I

[39:31] don't think a 3-year-old is supposed to

[39:33] be having nightmares about how they died

[39:35] in a fiery plane crash.

[39:37] But if it's what's happening, it could

[39:39] be that the emotion and the trauma of

[39:41] that past life has created a kind of a

[39:44] glitch in the process, in the system,

[39:46] and it's not allowed these children to

[39:50] start over in a fresh new way. If

[39:52] reincarnation is real, I don't think

[39:54] we're supposed to remember.

[39:55] >> Even with all of the work that has been

[39:57] done in more than six decades, we're

[40:00] still, in many ways, it just still seems

[40:02] like we're scratching the surface.

[40:06] >> I came to UVA specifically asking

[40:09] whether something as slippery as

[40:10] reincarnation could really be

[40:12] investigated scientifically. And by the

[40:14] end, I was not asking that anymore.

[40:16] Because even if you don't call it

[40:17] reincarnation, the children in these

[40:19] files appear to know things they should

[40:20] have no way of knowing. So now the

[40:22] question is much harder. What is

[40:24] actually happening? Because access to

[40:26] the memories of a dead person might not

[40:27] necessarily mean that you were that

[40:29] person.

[40:30] >> There is this notion of the Akashic

[40:31] record.

[40:32] >> The Akashic record is basically the idea

[40:34] that all the details and specifics of

[40:36] every life to ever live are stored in

[40:38] like an informational field.

[40:40] >> Sometimes what other people call it

[40:41] super psi, which is just that maybe

[40:43] these kids just have access to some

[40:46] remnant, some consciousness that was

[40:48] here and they're just psychically

[40:50] telling the memory of it. Which by the

[40:53] way would be freaking remarkable if

[40:54] that's true. But it wouldn't have to be

[40:56] reincarnation.

[40:57] >> Which sounds like a conservative

[40:59] explanation until you realize it still

[41:01] breaks everything we currently

[41:02] understand about memory and the brain.

[41:04] >> This should not be possible if this

[41:06] deceased person's brain has died, their

[41:09] memories have died with them. So how is

[41:12] this kid apparently picking up on the

[41:15] memories of that deceased person? So

[41:17] that already is anomalous in the context

[41:20] of current neuroscientific understanding

[41:22] of memory and the mind and

[41:24] consciousness.

[41:25] >> So even though I tried entertaining that

[41:26] possibility, that there's super psi or

[41:28] this ability to psychically download

[41:30] information about someone else's life,

[41:32] there's something in these cases that

[41:34] becomes much harder to explain as simply

[41:36] accessing someone else's memories. In

[41:39] more than a third of the solved cases at

[41:41] Docs,

[41:43] the children have a birthmark or birth

[41:45] defect that matches an injury or fatal

[41:47] wound of the past life the child is

[41:49] remembering.

[41:50] >> The biological aspect of it, the missing

[41:52] limbs, the birth defects that correspond

[41:54] to validated postmortem reports and

[41:56] autopsy reports of the alleged person

[41:58] that the child claims they were.

[42:00] I don't know if the Akashic record

[42:01] explains that. I don't quite understand

[42:04] what does.

[42:05] >> And that brings me back to the glass

[42:06] display cabinets on the other side of

[42:08] the room, the ones with the photographs

[42:10] and the weapons.

[42:11] >> This boy was born without a right ear,

[42:14] but with memories of the life of a man

[42:16] who was shot in the head.

[42:17] >> Which leaves a question that memory

[42:19] alone can't answer.

[42:21] How could something that happened to one

[42:22] body appear on another?

[42:24] >> An autopsy report [music] in black and

[42:26] white made before the child in question

[42:29] was born and many cases we find a close

[42:31] correspondence between the postmortem

[42:34] report and the birth marks and birth

[42:36] defects.

[42:37] >> It becomes harder to make sense of how

[42:39] someone's fatal wound in another country

[42:42] years ago shows up in a child.

[42:45] >> The birthmark cases, that's next time on

[42:47] the Reincarnation [music]

[42:48] Records.

[42:52] Thank you to the small team who made

[42:53] this season possible. Our amazing

[42:55] producer Cooper Mall, our audio mix and

[42:57] sound design was by Jeremy Cole, music

[42:59] was by Mike Carbino, my right hand was

[43:01] Selena Kennedy, and I'm Kindred your

[43:03] executive producer, writer, editor, and

[43:06] host. And if you haven't listened to our

[43:07] last season of the podcast, The

[43:09] Consciousness Cassettes, [music] I

[43:10] highly recommend you do so as it will

[43:12] give even more context to this season.

[43:14] And if you want to go in deeper,

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[43:37] [music]

[43:39] This is the Reincarnation Records from

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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

The Division of Perceptual Studies, known as DOPS, is a research group at the University of Virginia that has studied children who claim to remember previous lives for decades. Although it is administratively part of the Department of Psychiatry, it operates off campus, a few miles from the university. It was founded around Ian Stevenson's work and was originally named the Division of Parapsychology.
Ian Stevenson was a psychiatrist who chaired the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia before turning to reincarnation. Anthropologist Jim Matlock described him in the episode as the grandfather of reincarnation research, noting that Stevenson went directly to children and their families instead of relying on hypnotic regression. He died in 2007.
CORT stands for cases of the reincarnation type, a term Stevenson coined. It describes a case that looks like reincarnation based on a child's statements and verifiable details, without asserting that reincarnation is actually occurring. Stevenson published multi-volume collections organized by region under this name.
Researchers argue that adults who recall past lives under hypnosis have absorbed a lifetime of books, films, and stories, which makes it hard to rule out contamination. Children who speak spontaneously have had far less exposure to such material. Matlock said spontaneous childhood memories were much more factually accurate than those surfaced through regression.
Chester Carlson, the inventor behind the Xerox machine, donated a million dollars to Ian Stevenson in the 1960s after his wife heard about purported reincarnation cases. The gift was roughly nine million dollars in today's money, according to the episode. The university accepted it and gave Stevenson the freedom to run the research outside the psychiatry department.
The episode does not claim proof. It presents a body of case files in which researchers record children's statements before verification and test them against real people's lives. Whether the matches reflect coincidence, an unexplained phenomenon, or reincarnation remains an open question the researchers themselves do not settle.
According to the episode's description, a young girl in Sri Lanka recalls a distant village, another family, and a hidden container of money. Such specific, checkable details are why investigators find the case useful for testing claims. The episode uses it to illustrate how verification works rather than as a final verdict.

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