Transcript
[0:00] People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming
[0:02] to you live. Imagine that. Me on stage
[0:04] in your city. Dublin is completely sold
[0:06] out, but everywhere else has got limited
[0:08] tickets left and you can get yours now
[0:09] at chriswillson.live. This is a
[0:11] customuilt live show. I absolutely adore
[0:13] it. I've spent over a year working on
[0:15] it. So, if you're a fan of everything
[0:16] Modern Wisdom, come and see me on stage
[0:18] this October around the UK and Ireland.
[0:20] Chris Williamson.Live.
[0:22] This has taken you 20 years to do this
[0:27] book. [laughter]
[0:29] >> Wow. That would be a long time. I would
[0:31] be beat Robert Carol.
[0:33] >> Uh, no, seven years.
[0:35] >> Seven.
[0:35] >> So, so
[0:37] back in like 2000, I read a book on the
[0:40] sublime and I got really excited. I
[0:42] thought this is this is really
[0:43] interesting, but I knew there was no
[0:44] market for it. It was kind of a weird
[0:46] book.
[0:47] >> And I intended after the war book, this
[0:48] was going to be my next book with
[0:50] Sublime. I was going to shock my
[0:51] readers. Was something totally
[0:53] unexpected. I hired a researcher. I
[0:55] started doing it. And then 50 Cent
[0:57] trotted along and said, "Let's do a book
[1:00] together." And so I pushed Sublime
[1:02] aside. I made the 10th chapter of the
[1:05] 50th 50 Cent book about the Sublime
[1:08] about how he nearly died from the
[1:09] gunshot wounds and you know his
[1:11] near-death experience. And then I from
[1:14] 50 Cent book there was a chapter about
[1:17] mastery. So I turned that into the book
[1:19] mastery and then I don't know human
[1:22] nature was anyway I just got totally
[1:24] sidelined
[1:25] and then you know I had my quote unquote
[1:28] near-death experience
[1:31] and suddenly you know God was telling me
[1:34] this is the time you need to write a
[1:36] book on the sublime no more putting it
[1:38] off because it was a it was a sublime
[1:41] experience to come that close to dying
[1:43] you know
[1:44] >> a lot of your work is focused on power
[1:46] seduction manipulation human nature.
[1:50] >> Why get interested in writing about the
[1:52] sublime at all?
[1:54] >> Well, um, a lot of what happens with
[1:58] humans and what goes wrong with them is
[2:00] on a deep psychological level and level
[2:02] of consciousness. So, the first three
[2:05] books are kind of the social game, the
[2:07] surface game that we all play, right?
[2:09] because we're a social animal and nobody
[2:12] really instructs us. Even though we're a
[2:14] social animal, nobody even teaches us
[2:16] how to be social and we make all these
[2:18] mistakes and we suffer. So,
[2:21] that book came out of my experiences in
[2:24] Hollywood and all the suffering I had
[2:25] and all the 50 different jobs with the
[2:28] psychotic bosses that I had and all
[2:29] that. All right. Um, but there's
[2:32] something deeper going on with human.
[2:34] It's something more than just the social
[2:36] game. It's how we experience life itself
[2:39] and how we relate to the world around
[2:41] us. And I'm just noticing a kind of
[2:45] deadness in people's experience, a kind
[2:47] of flatness,
[2:48] >> like everything has been flattened out
[2:50] by social media in a way, you know, and
[2:54] people aren't experiencing anything on a
[2:56] deep level. And there's nothing
[2:58] surprising anymore, you know. I I look
[3:01] at my Instagram feed, it's interesting,
[3:03] and I see cat videos and they're great.
[3:05] And and the first time I see it, it's
[3:07] wow, that cat's doing incredible things.
[3:08] And the second, the third time, it's all
[3:10] the same. It really there's differences,
[3:13] don't get me wrong, but in the end, it's
[3:15] all programmed. It's all algorithms.
[3:16] It's all the same.
[3:18] >> And I think people are suffering,
[3:20] suffering deeply from it. I was taking a
[3:23] bike ride the other day in Griffith
[3:25] Park. I just had this epiphany that I'm
[3:30] living in a mad house. Everyone's going
[3:32] insane and I'm I'm going insane as well.
[3:36] And why is that? Why do people feel so
[3:39] cramped and so restless and turning to
[3:41] all these different things and our
[3:43] politics and and technology? Everything
[3:45] is just going haywire. I feel like
[3:48] there's something deep deeper happening
[3:50] deep in our consciousness and a kind of
[3:53] disconnect from what it means to be
[3:56] alive. you know, when you come close to
[3:58] dying, you know what it really means to
[4:01] be alive. And so, I don't know if I'm
[4:04] being too grandiose, but I'm really want
[4:06] to help people in their suffering and
[4:09] give them a road map for how you could
[4:11] possibly experience life on a deeper
[4:14] level. It has nothing to do with
[4:15] manipulation, has nothing to do with
[4:16] power or seducing. It's on a deeper
[4:19] psychological level that I'm trying to
[4:21] to reach you. It feels like you're
[4:24] talking about life having the color
[4:26] stripped away from it in some ways, but
[4:28] the uh
[4:31] the amplitude of the waveform is just
[4:34] being compressed down and everything's
[4:36] little wobbles. Nothing's that great and
[4:38] nothing's that that deeply felt. Yeah,
[4:42] that that's a good way of putting it. I
[4:44] mean, the way I look at it is we all
[4:47] went through childhood, right? And we
[4:49] all had it's a universal experience
[4:52] seeing the world for the first time.
[4:54] Everybody went through that. Everybody
[4:56] had to go through learning language and
[4:58] discovering that you had a eye that you
[5:00] were different from other people that
[5:02] you had discovering who your parents
[5:04] were. And in your childhood experience,
[5:07] even if you had a bad parents, even if
[5:09] it was abusive childhood, your eyes were
[5:12] opening. Everything looks strange and
[5:14] weird and different and unfamiliar. Now,
[5:16] that's shifting a little bit as adults
[5:19] are trying to introduce children into
[5:21] adulthood too early with technology, but
[5:24] it's still even then it's still you're
[5:26] looking at things for the first time and
[5:29] everything is exciting. And I read a
[5:32] book about the infant's brain and how
[5:35] how different it is from our adult brain
[5:39] >> because the adult brain works by
[5:41] inhibiting by filtering everything down
[5:44] so you don't get too much information,
[5:46] right? So you can survive so you can
[5:47] walk through the streets and think about
[5:50] what you're doing tomorrow and plan and
[5:52] not get hit by a car and all these other
[5:54] things. It's inhibiting all the all your
[5:57] sensory information. The baby, the
[6:00] 2-year-old, the three-year-old has no
[6:01] inhibition. Everything is interesting.
[6:04] Everything is exciting. Okay? And then
[6:08] slowly you reach a point as you get
[6:10] older and older and older that that that
[6:12] disappears from your experience.
[6:15] Everything looks familiar. Things don't
[6:17] seem strange to you. Things don't seem
[6:18] unfamiliar. You don't look up at the
[6:20] night sky and go, "Wow, stars. Wow,
[6:22] infinity. Wow, how weird. How
[6:24] interesting." Right? I remember I was a
[6:28] kid driving with my family on these road
[6:31] trips that were so boring. You know, I
[6:33] was going nuts with my sister next to me
[6:35] and I would look out the window and I
[6:38] would imagine all these things going on
[6:40] like I was imagining Indians on the
[6:42] hills and what they were doing and
[6:44] animals and stuff that our imaginations
[6:47] were so vivid. Everything was intense
[6:49] >> and then you lose it slowly. you lose it
[6:52] and you're in your 20s and your 30s and
[6:56] you're not really aware of it but you
[6:58] feel something missing in your life
[7:01] because you once knew this intensity
[7:04] that you have lost right that's how I
[7:06] that's how I try to describe it
[7:08] >> yeah I I definitely resonate with the
[7:13] awe wonder sense of presence and
[7:17] excitement sort of feeling like it's
[7:19] being stripped a little bit and I it
[7:21] seems to me like you're saying the fact
[7:23] that we have a to-do list and
[7:24] responsibilities and the necessity to
[7:27] plan for the future. That executive
[7:29] function
[7:31] strips some of the fundamental
[7:35] relating between our brain and reality
[7:37] that we need in order to be able to
[7:39] experience the sublime. Is that right?
[7:40] Like why why is it that we don't just
[7:42] naturally access this all the time? Why
[7:43] does our brain need to filter reality?
[7:46] >> Because um because there's too much
[7:49] information, right? And you have to you
[7:52] have to plan and you have to sk you have
[7:53] to have your life and that we're all so
[7:56] busy and there are so many things coming
[7:58] at us that if we were paying attention
[8:00] to everything like the baby does the
[8:02] child does we wouldn't be able to
[8:04] function in our day-to-day life. So the
[8:07] brain has to filter for us and the Aldos
[8:10] Huxley he calls it the small mind and
[8:13] the big mind and our minds get smaller
[8:15] and smaller and smaller as we focus on
[8:17] the things that we need to survive. I
[8:19] know it myself. I'll be meditating and
[8:23] constantly these thoughts coming up
[8:24] about what am I going to do in an hour.
[8:26] What's going to happen? What I need to I
[8:28] didn't do this phone call. I didn't
[8:30] return this email. My mind is just doing
[8:32] it naturally. I can't help it. Right?
[8:35] The mind is trying to filter things down
[8:37] so you can survive, so you can get by.
[8:39] So you can schedule and plan your life.
[8:41] But it goes too far. It takes over our
[8:43] life.
[8:44] >> Everything becomes about survival.
[8:46] Everything becomes about getting by. And
[8:49] so you're missing. So now I I'm not
[8:52] saying this the sublime has to be part
[8:55] of your continual experience, right?
[8:58] That you wouldn't be able to do your
[9:00] job. You wouldn't be able to get to
[9:01] work. It'd be too much. You have to have
[9:03] this filtering mechanism going on. But I
[9:06] look at people I I I ride my bike up
[9:09] into Griffith Park up into these hills
[9:11] that are pretty high up.
[9:12] >> There's no cars. It's incredibly
[9:15] beautiful, right? Peaceful. These people
[9:17] are like this. They're walking like this
[9:19] with their earphones on like, "God damn
[9:21] it, what the going on here,
[9:23] right?" You don't have to be living your
[9:25] life like that. When you're out in
[9:27] nature, you can put your phone away. You
[9:29] can start experiencing what life is.
[9:31] When you're interacting with people, you
[9:33] don't have to be like this. You can try
[9:35] and get into their world, what their
[9:36] thoughts are, what what their life is
[9:38] like. When you're interacting with your
[9:40] pets, you can sort imagine like biology
[9:43] and evolution and the strange
[9:45] consciousness that your dog has or your
[9:47] cat has. You can be experiencing these
[9:49] things all of the time and it doesn't
[9:51] interrupt your ability to to get by in
[9:53] this world.
[9:55] >> Yeah. I I think a lot of the time people
[9:58] assume that the human brain is just
[9:59] built for survival and reproduction. Is
[10:02] it your suggestion that people in the
[10:04] past with fewer distractions and less
[10:08] need for executive function would have
[10:09] experienced life in a marketkedly
[10:11] different way?
[10:12] >> Well, it's not because
[10:14] we're aware of our our death. We're
[10:17] aware of our mortality. And even if you
[10:20] don't think about it, it's in the back
[10:22] of your mind all the time. you're
[10:23] continually it's it's there that you're
[10:26] you're going to die some point and you
[10:28] see your your parents die, you see
[10:30] friends die, etc. And so the sense of
[10:33] our mortality weighs on us very much.
[10:37] And why spend 20 years building up
[10:41] modern wisdom and doing all of this work
[10:43] and working like a dog when you're going
[10:45] to die? What's the point? It's
[10:47] meaningless, right? Why go through all
[10:49] that effort? Why not just go out and
[10:50] enjoy yourself, Chris? Right?
[10:53] So the sense of death puts poses a
[10:56] question on us. Why are we alive? What
[10:59] is the point of this?
[11:01] And our ancestors thousands of years ago
[11:04] were very much much more aware of death
[11:06] than we are now. Like death is is is
[11:09] hidden from us. We never see it. We
[11:11] don't see the animals that are killed
[11:13] for our food. People die in hospitals
[11:16] far away. We never we can go through our
[11:18] entire life and never see somebody who
[11:20] dies, right? But our ancestors, it was
[11:23] there before them. Most children died in
[11:25] childbirth. Mothers died in childbirth
[11:28] constantly, right? It was all the smell,
[11:30] the feel of death was all around.
[11:32] >> And so
[11:33] >> what there must be some other reason
[11:35] must be some point to our existence.
[11:37] There must be something greater. And so
[11:39] the need for knowing about our mortality
[11:43] is what is greater than my individual
[11:46] existence
[11:48] that I can attach myself to and not feel
[11:51] so small and helpless and vulnerable
[11:53] that my death has no meaning. Okay.
[11:55] Well, I could connect myself to the
[11:57] cosmos, to the stars, to spirits, to
[11:59] gods. And I have a story in this in my
[12:03] book where these people go into a cave,
[12:06] these uh cave explorers in France in the
[12:09] 1990s
[12:11] and they come upon these cave paintings
[12:14] from the early Paleolithic period 37,000
[12:17] years ago. The most insanely beautiful
[12:20] paintings you've ever seen. You can
[12:21] watch a documentary by Verer Herzog
[12:24] about that and you can see it for
[12:25] yourself. It's called the cave of
[12:27] forgotten dreams. this the Chauveet cave
[12:29] in south of France and
[12:33] there are all these ritual these
[12:35] remnants of all these rituals that
[12:36] they're practicing etc. So 37,000 years
[12:40] ago they were trying to this was had
[12:42] nothing to do with survival. Being in
[12:45] these caves was dangerous. There were
[12:47] bears. It was dark. It to them
[12:49] represented like hell or like the
[12:52] underworld. There was no survival reason
[12:54] to go into caves and have these perform
[12:57] have shamans perform these dances, these
[12:59] rituals, these cave paintings. They were
[13:01] searching for something else. And so
[13:04] humans naturally are searching for
[13:06] something else besides the day-to-day
[13:08] existence that they go through. If you
[13:11] try to repress it, it will come out in
[13:13] other ways. And I talk about that in the
[13:15] book. You'll go through the false
[13:17] sublime. You'll try to get it through
[13:19] drugs. You try to get it through action
[13:21] movies, through Marvel movies. You try
[13:23] to get it through online porn, through
[13:25] addictions, through all sorts of through
[13:27] drugs, etc. You know, stimulants. If
[13:31] you're not searching for it in this real
[13:34] way, something happens to the human
[13:36] spirit and you search for it in all
[13:37] these other counterproductive ways. If
[13:40] that makes any sense to you.
[13:41] >> Yeah. What do you mean when you talk
[13:42] about the sublime? Come to define that
[13:44] for me.
[13:47] >> Well, you're you're not aware of it, but
[13:51] you live within these limits. Your mind
[13:54] is li is is limited. So your culture
[13:57] that you live in patterns your thinking
[14:00] and you're not aware of that. What we
[14:03] think of as reality in 21st century
[14:05] America is not what ancient Egyptians
[14:07] thought was reality. So your culture
[14:10] that you live in ours is a technological
[14:12] culture. In 400 years it'll be something
[14:14] else. Our culture conditions what we
[14:17] think of and what we take. Whoa. Sorry.
[14:21] Behave yourself, Kane.
[14:23] >> All right. Um, our culture conditions
[14:27] what we take for being real. Okay? And
[14:30] our metaphors now all have to do about
[14:32] technology and computers and AI, but
[14:35] that's going to change at some point.
[14:37] All right? So, our minds are kind of
[14:39] limited by the cultural moment we live
[14:41] in by the zeitgeist. As an individual,
[14:44] your brain is limited because your your
[14:47] reality is limited because the brain
[14:49] constructs reality for you. Right? I
[14:52] have a story in the book of a woman
[14:54] who's suffering a stroke. She's a
[14:57] neuroscientist and and her stroke it's a
[15:00] it's a hemorrhagic stroke in the brain
[15:02] different from mine and the blood is
[15:04] shutting down her brain one by one by
[15:07] one and she's experiencing what the
[15:09] world is like when the brain isn't
[15:10] filtering. She sees what the world looks
[15:12] like before the brain constructs visual
[15:15] information.
[15:16] >> What's that like?
[15:18] Well, um, she thought at first it was
[15:21] kind of a little bit, what's going on
[15:23] here? But then as it's happening, it's
[15:25] like this is insanely exciting, right?
[15:29] She's dying. It's literally killing her.
[15:32] She takes a shower. You don't realize,
[15:34] but the brain constructs the fact that
[15:37] you are separated from everything else
[15:38] so that you can walk through a space and
[15:41] negotiate. It's a som sensory
[15:43] somatensory part of the cortex. It kind
[15:47] of helps you deal with space and
[15:49] separates you from other things. It's
[15:52] shutting down and now the water and the
[15:54] showers are a part of her and there's
[15:56] nothing separating her from anything
[15:58] else. All that internal chatter
[16:01] shuts down that you don't realize but
[16:03] your brain is always chattering and
[16:04] hearing things. Her brain goes
[16:06] completely silent. What bliss to have
[16:09] your brain silent. The world is so
[16:11] interesting and weird. and then seeing
[16:14] things not as visual things but as
[16:16] little pixelated thoughts. At first the
[16:19] sensations are exciting. It's like I'm
[16:22] free from the restrictions of my brain
[16:24] and now I'm part of everything I see.
[16:27] >> It's like a mystical experience. She
[16:30] nearly dies. She somehow saves herself
[16:33] because she can't figure out how to even
[16:36] make a phone call. She somehow gets
[16:39] survives. She survives, but she's like a
[16:42] an infant in a woman's body. Now, when
[16:44] she comes out, she has no language. She
[16:46] can't speak. She can't understand what
[16:48] anybody's saying. And slowly, it takes
[16:51] her 8 years and she recovers her her
[16:54] cognitive abilities.
[16:56] And she's depressed. She's going, "When
[16:58] I suffered my stroke and it shut down
[17:01] all those filtering mechanisms, I felt
[17:04] like I was in heaven. And I felt like it
[17:05] was the most blissful thing. And now I
[17:09] can think, I can write, I'm cog I have
[17:11] cognitive powers, but my life is hell.
[17:14] And she wants to go back to where she
[17:16] was during her stroke. And so she wrote
[17:19] a book about that called My Stroke of
[17:20] Insight about how she found her ways
[17:23] somehow logically as a as a scientist
[17:26] back to those sensations she had during
[17:28] her stroke. So my point is by a huge
[17:32] tangent,
[17:34] your culture is limiting your
[17:36] experience. Your brain is limiting your
[17:38] experience. Your brain is constructing
[17:40] what you think is real. But it is not
[17:42] real. It is like a red pill. You think
[17:44] it's real. What all this is? This is not
[17:46] what a bat's reality is. It's not what a
[17:48] fly's reality. It's not what a dog's
[17:50] reality is. Ours is no different. We
[17:53] think it's the only reality, but it's
[17:55] not. The sublime are experiences that
[17:58] take you outside these limits. This take
[18:00] you outside this circle that we live in.
[18:03] You're experiencing
[18:05] what what alien like what animals are
[18:08] experiencing. You're experiencing what
[18:11] the cosmos it actually is like to be
[18:12] connected to something universal to have
[18:15] actually be part of the big bang because
[18:19] your body was formed the same components
[18:23] that came from the big bang. It's
[18:25] getting outside that circle and exposing
[18:27] yourself to things that the brain
[18:29] doesn't normally allow you to
[18:30] experience. And when you touch, so let's
[18:34] say that the sublime is like a doorway
[18:36] outside these cultural and brain limits.
[18:40] And when you look at that doorway and
[18:42] you touch and you look through it, it's
[18:44] like a shock. It's like a shutter. Wow.
[18:47] You know, things are really weird.
[18:49] Things are strange. Life is amazing. And
[18:52] it changes you. like my my death
[18:54] experience changed me. There's no going
[18:56] back once I now had this blast of of
[19:00] death feeling inside my body. There's no
[19:02] going back. When you experience that,
[19:04] mountain climbers talk about this all
[19:06] the time because mountain climbers are
[19:08] continually experienced the sublime and
[19:10] I have several stories in there of
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[20:09] wisdom. A modern wisdom at checkout. Is
[20:11] it a surprise that humans aren't just
[20:14] walking around all the time perpetually
[20:15] beused at the fact that we're alive and
[20:18] how unlikely it is? Uh that was like one
[20:22] of the chapters I wrote in there and I
[20:23] said I I break it down this way. If you
[20:27] look at your body and what your body
[20:29] does, you don't have to think about
[20:32] breathing. You don't have to think about
[20:34] your heartbeat. If you have a a a
[20:37] scratch or a wound, your body heals
[20:39] itself. that has these antibodies.
[20:42] It's insane what the body can do. And
[20:45] when you're threatened with a life, like
[20:47] something's about to kill you or
[20:49] something or there's a tiger right in
[20:51] front of you, the body produces these
[20:53] hormones that save your life. If you're
[20:55] a long-distance runner, you get all this
[20:58] dopamine and all these other effects
[21:00] that help you keep running, running, and
[21:01] running.
[21:03] The what the body can do is absolutely
[21:06] incredible, right? Where does this come
[21:07] from? Where does the brain come from?
[21:10] Where does consciousness come from? It's
[21:12] part of a evolution that goes back
[21:15] millions and millions and millions of
[21:16] years. And if you start thinking about
[21:19] this story about how you have your brain
[21:22] is actually part of has a reptilian part
[21:24] to it. There's a lizard brain inside you
[21:27] right now and that there's layers to
[21:29] your experience that go back millions
[21:31] and millions of years. You go back to
[21:34] how life almost never formed on planet
[21:37] Earth, right? And it almost formed with
[21:41] creatures that look different, totally
[21:42] different from ourselves. The main uh
[21:46] body form of all animals and all
[21:48] creatures is a a body and a head and
[21:51] limbs.
[21:52] Back in the Cambrian explosion 600
[21:55] million years ago, there were 10
[21:57] different other body types that nearly
[22:00] took over. And they have pictures of
[22:02] them. They're the strangest.
[22:03] >> What like?
[22:04] >> Huh?
[22:04] >> What? Like,
[22:06] >> you can look it up,
[22:07] >> right?
[22:07] >> Opabinia, hallucinate. I I I write them
[22:10] down in the book. If you look at them,
[22:12] you go, my god, they're like something
[22:14] out of a nightmare,
[22:15] >> right? And it was just by an accident
[22:18] that our body type became the
[22:21] predominant one. And so all these little
[22:25] little bottlenecks in evolution could
[22:27] have occurred where we would nothing
[22:29] would be what we think what what looks
[22:31] like today. Then if the dinosaurs hadn't
[22:34] gone extinct because of an asteroid
[22:36] hitting our planets 68 million years
[22:38] ago, dinosaurs would still be walking
[22:41] the earth and we wouldn't be here. Mhm.
[22:43] >> If you think about this, if you think
[22:45] about how life will originate, if you
[22:46] think about the big bang and everything
[22:48] that happened,
[22:50] you can't take anything for granted. You
[22:52] can't take anything for granted, right?
[22:56] It's just an amazing story. I
[23:01] once manually, this is before AI, when I
[23:03] gave a TEDex talk, I had to try and
[23:06] reverse engineer what the likelihood was
[23:07] of you being alive. your parents, your
[23:10] grandparents, your great-grandparents
[23:12] all the way back for as long as you can.
[23:14] >> And that's before you even factor in how
[23:16] many sperm there are. And that if only
[23:19] it had been, without getting too
[23:21] graphic, if it was the next pump and not
[23:23] that pump when your great-grandparents
[23:25] were having sex, it's a different kid.
[23:27] >> Yeah. Different gender, different
[23:29] everything. If you've got performance
[23:31] anxiety as a guy and you're trying to
[23:32] get your misses pregnant, one of the
[23:33] things to not think about is that each
[23:35] different microscond of how you finish
[23:38] will probably result in a different kid
[23:40] coming out. That's probably quite a
[23:42] reliable way I think of making
[23:43] [laughter] you feel a little bit
[23:44] uncomfortable about about what's going
[23:46] on. But yeah, it's it's unbelievably
[23:48] tenuous. And I guess it makes sense in
[23:50] one way because you think, well, if we
[23:52] were looking around just at wonder at
[23:54] all, like the the lady who was having
[23:55] the stroke, like me and the shower, the
[23:57] water from the shower head, we're one.
[23:59] The separation that I have perceived is
[24:02] is a mere figment of the way that my
[24:05] brain constructs the world, but we are
[24:07] the same.
[24:08] Can you have a job? Can you drive
[24:10] through traffic whilst feeling like
[24:12] that? Maybe not.
[24:13] >> Yes, you can. Yes, you can. I mean,
[24:15] she's a functioning neuroscientist who
[24:18] writes books, who gives TED talks. She's
[24:20] world famous. She has a beautiful life.
[24:24] She lives on a housebo. She does swims
[24:26] on the in this lake. She gets lots of
[24:28] things done. She has a speaking
[24:30] engagements.
[24:31] >> Why not?
[24:32] >> Is she still feeling that now? Has she
[24:34] managed to reaccess?
[24:35] >> Yeah. I mean, I talked to her for this
[24:37] book like four or five years ago, unless
[24:39] it's changed in the last four or five
[24:40] years, which I doubt.
[24:42] >> Yes, you can. you can go on functioning.
[24:45] So,
[24:46] you go through your life and and you
[24:49] you're functioning and you're getting
[24:51] things done and you're working and
[24:52] you're going through your schedule and
[24:54] you're and you're progressing in your
[24:56] career, right? But something is missing.
[24:59] Something is missing from your
[25:00] experience. You could go through your
[25:02] entire life like that and by the time
[25:04] and then you're going to die and you
[25:06] reach the point of death when you're in
[25:07] your 70s or whatever and it's a
[25:10] terrifying experience like because
[25:11] you've not prepared for it. You've not
[25:13] thought about anything. You've been
[25:15] sleepwalking through your entire life.
[25:17] You maybe've made a lot of money, but
[25:19] you're not really happy, right? Because
[25:21] your world is so limited. So, it's not
[25:24] that you're always expanding and always
[25:26] looking at the sky and always like that,
[25:29] but you have moments like that
[25:31] constantly. You know, every you go out
[25:33] into when you travel or you just look
[25:36] outside taking a walk. Everybody takes a
[25:39] walk, right?
[25:41] except for me because I can't walk. But
[25:44] when you're walking, you can look around
[25:46] yourself and and be in awe of things and
[25:48] think about it. So,
[25:51] um, some of the book, there's a lot of
[25:53] science in this book because I don't
[25:55] want to ground it in just your own
[25:57] emotions and your own imagination.
[25:58] There's a lot of science in there. And
[26:01] so when you understand the science
[26:04] behind the formation of life on planet
[26:07] earth and you understand how
[26:09] multisellular organisms occurred by
[26:11] accident some 3 4 billion years ago,
[26:15] right? And how
[26:18] this body form how the Cambrian
[26:20] explosion created life as we know it
[26:22] with brains and senses and and a nervous
[26:25] system. If you know the science about
[26:28] how dinosaurs are the world looks
[26:31] different to you, right? But it's not
[26:33] like you're thinking about it all the
[26:34] time. It just means you don't take
[26:36] everything for granted,
[26:38] >> right?
[26:39] Like I was talking to Ryan yesterday
[26:41] about this and how
[26:44] Marcus Aurelius has this quote about a
[26:47] glass of wine and he's talking about you
[26:49] know 200 AD or whatever and you drink
[26:53] your wine you're not aware that there
[26:56] were these purple grapes that grew that
[26:59] took this their time to grow and then
[27:01] ferment and then people pressed it then
[27:03] they created it and they did all this
[27:05] work. You don't see or feel the work
[27:07] that goes into everything. So, you're
[27:09] walking around, you don't know why
[27:11] they're glass buildings. You don't know
[27:12] anything about the food you eat. You're
[27:14] just walking around in a trance. You're
[27:17] not connecting to anything material.
[27:19] Your senses are dead, I'm afraid. And
[27:22] this is about opening your senses. It
[27:24] doesn't make life impossible. It makes
[27:26] life that much richer. And you can still
[27:28] go on do your work. I wrote a
[27:30] book that's that's 450 pages after a
[27:34] stroke after I can experience the
[27:36] sublime. I got plenty of things done. I
[27:38] get a lot of things done every day.
[27:40] >> Right.
[27:41] >> Yeah. How does the ego work against us
[27:44] accessing the sublime?
[27:46] >> Well,
[27:48] so
[27:50] you're you're kind of trapped in your in
[27:53] in yourself, in your ego, in your own
[27:55] thoughts. And your thoughts kind of
[27:56] revolve around what are people thinking
[27:58] about me? Why did my parents do this to
[28:01] me? Why am I so angry? You feel envy.
[28:03] You feel resentment. You have all these
[28:05] grievances. You feel excitement. You
[28:07] have hope and all these other things
[28:09] going on. But you're inside your mind
[28:11] all of the time, right? You're inside
[28:13] your own world. And you're not
[28:16] connecting to anything else outside of
[28:19] it. And so sometimes, you know, look, I
[28:24] think you can't deny the fact that a lot
[28:25] of people are very miserable right now
[28:27] and unhappy. One out of six Americans is
[28:30] on some kind of drug to deal with
[28:33] depression, right? Pretty high number.
[28:36] And a lot of people are experiencing
[28:38] that are not taking these drugs, right?
[28:40] Something is missing in their life. And
[28:44] if you're So what do you do? Well, maybe
[28:47] I need to have therapy, right? Maybe I
[28:50] go talk to a therapist about or I talk
[28:52] to my spouse about my problems. And as
[28:55] you talk and talk and talk, you get
[28:56] further and further into yourself. You
[28:58] become the center of everything. That's
[29:00] all you think about. My childhood, who
[29:03] who who bothered me, who oppressed me,
[29:06] why didn't I get what I want? Why isn't
[29:08] the world more fair? You're locked
[29:10] inside your ego and it's like a prison.
[29:13] And the sublime is taking you outside of
[29:15] your ego, taking you outside of that.
[29:18] And so
[29:19] I have a story in the book of a man, a
[29:23] therapist in Buenos, Aries, and he has a
[29:26] patient named Miguel. And Miguel
[29:30] has a wonderful life. He's got a great
[29:32] job. He makes a lot of money. He's got a
[29:34] beautiful house. He's got a gorgeous
[29:35] wife. He's got three kids. He has
[29:38] everything that you could want in life.
[29:40] But something is missing. and he's
[29:41] talking to the therapist. They talk and
[29:44] they talk and they talk and finally the
[29:45] therapist has had enough of it. We're
[29:47] not getting anywhere. Here's what I'm
[29:49] going to do. We're going to go climb the
[29:51] highest mountain in the southern
[29:53] hemisphere, Mount Akonagua in in uh
[29:56] Argentina in the a in the Andes, right?
[29:59] The highest mountain in in in the
[30:00] southern hemisphere. We're going to
[30:02] train for 6 weeks to climb it because
[30:04] it's very arduous climb. And then we're
[30:07] going to do it. And and I'm not going to
[30:09] tell you why. just no more talking
[30:11] therapy. Just shut the up. We're
[30:13] just going to train and we're going to
[30:14] climb this mountain, right? They train.
[30:18] They start climbing the mountain and
[30:20] the, you know, the sight of the stars as
[30:22] you're climbing higher and higher. It's
[30:23] a it's a high desert mountain. It's
[30:26] spectacularly beautiful. And the snow
[30:28] and everything, it's just an insane
[30:30] experience. It's a cosmic experience.
[30:33] They don't get to the top because it's
[30:34] there's storms and it gets very
[30:36] dangerous. They finally retreat. But the
[30:38] man is transformed by this experience
[30:40] more than all of the talking because he
[30:42] was taken outside of himself and he was
[30:45] exposed to something much greater. So he
[30:48] got out of his small little ego world
[30:50] with his wife and his problems and why
[30:52] he's miserable.
[30:54] >> How can you be miserable when you're ex
[30:56] you're seeing what the world that we
[30:58] live in, right? And so your ego is the
[31:03] actual impediment to experiencing the
[31:06] sublime. And this is a way of kind of
[31:08] getting outside of that. In in Zen
[31:11] Buddhism, they talk about ego attrition.
[31:15] >> That means thinning the ego. And as the
[31:18] as the ego because it has a thickness to
[31:20] it. And as you get older, that your ego
[31:23] gets thicker and thicker and thicker and
[31:24] thicker and you have no control over
[31:27] that because you become more
[31:28] self-absorbed.
[31:30] Through zen, through meditation, you're
[31:33] you're getting that ego thinner and
[31:35] thinner and thinner and thinner to the
[31:37] point where it disappears, which most
[31:39] people don't ever experience. Only a few
[31:41] Zen masters experience. But as it gets
[31:43] thinner, the world feels and looks
[31:46] different to you, right? Ego attrition.
[31:49] And so you can thin your ego at any age.
[31:52] And you can get and it opens your mind
[31:54] up to something else than all of your
[31:57] all of your petty concerns. And they are
[31:59] petty in the end.
[32:01] What is the role of the Damon? Because
[32:03] that at least as far as I can see is
[32:06] also residing inside of you to a degree
[32:09] but doesn't seem to be working against
[32:11] you connecting with the world or
[32:13] yourself. Seems to be working toward it.
[32:16] [gasps]
[32:17] Well, what I've tried to do is that the
[32:20] damon is an ancient concept, but it's in
[32:22] almost all ancient cultures. And the
[32:24] idea is you have a second self inside of
[32:27] you. And it's an interesting thought. So
[32:31] when I read about that, I'm going a
[32:33] second self. What is that second self?
[32:35] Right? The first self is the one you
[32:38] take for being who you are. It's your
[32:41] social self. It's what people have told
[32:44] you who you are. I'm shy. I'm an
[32:46] introvert. I'm an extrovert. I'm
[32:48] dramatic. I'm a arrogant. I'm
[32:50] aggressive. You know, people define who
[32:52] you are as you get older. Right? Your
[32:55] parents define who you are. uh your
[32:58] teachers define who you are. You no
[33:00] longer you no longer are connected to
[33:01] who you actually are. You become a
[33:03] reflection of this social world that you
[33:05] live in and that's the self that you
[33:07] take for being who you are. But it's not
[33:09] it's false. It's fake. It's a creation.
[33:12] It's a social creation, right? But at
[33:15] the same time, there's something very
[33:17] real inside of you. You have your you
[33:20] have your heartbeat. You have your
[33:22] particular moods. You have a temperament
[33:24] that's different from anybody else. and
[33:26] you can't verbalize it. Why am I
[33:29] attracted to this food? Why does this
[33:32] kind of woman always excite me and this
[33:34] other one doesn't? Why do I love this
[33:37] certain kind of books? What ex these
[33:40] weird things that excite me that I can't
[33:42] put into words
[33:44] have nothing to do with the social
[33:46] realm, right? There's something deep
[33:49] deep inside of you. And in the ancient
[33:52] world, they call that a damon or a
[33:53] second self. Al ancient cultures had
[33:55] other words for it. The ancient
[33:56] Egyptians had a different word for ka. I
[33:59] talk about another uh African culture
[34:02] that had a different word for it.
[34:03] Sunsum.
[34:05] But the idea is that when you're born,
[34:07] there's there's something about you
[34:09] that's unique that's different from
[34:10] anybody else. It's what also is called
[34:12] your soul. And the don is like a voice
[34:17] inside of you that is who you really
[34:20] are. And when you start doing things in
[34:23] life that have nothing to do with what
[34:25] you love or what you like, the dame
[34:27] speaks to you and says that's not you're
[34:29] going in the wrong direction. Something
[34:31] is bad. You need to follow who you
[34:33] really are.
[34:35] >> And if you listen to that voice like
[34:37] Socrates did or like a lot of artists do
[34:40] or people who are truly creative, they
[34:42] hear that voice even when they're in
[34:44] their 20s, 30s, and 40s. I hear it all
[34:46] the time.
[34:47] >> Something isn't right. Something doesn't
[34:48] fit. It doesn't fit my physiology. It's
[34:50] not who I am. When you connect to that
[34:53] voice, when you connect to that demon,
[34:55] wow, it's very powerful, right? And it
[34:58] it it is sublime because
[35:00] it's connecting you to who you were at
[35:04] the moment of your birth.
[35:06] At the moment of your birth, you were
[35:08] something different about there was
[35:09] unique. You were born, which is a
[35:11] strange thing to be born into, thrown
[35:13] into this world. It's connecting you to
[35:16] the very first days of your life when
[35:19] the gods put a dayon inside of you.
[35:21] Okay, I know that's not the words we
[35:23] want to hear right now, but that's how
[35:25] the the legend is, right? And so what's
[35:29] sublime about that is that you have
[35:32] another self to you that is truly more
[35:35] authentic than the social self. And to
[35:37] explore it and to go into it is a very
[35:40] exciting and liberating feeling. You
[35:43] know, it's discovering something very
[35:45] primal about yourself that has nothing
[35:47] to do with what other people think about
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[36:44] wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout.
[36:46] Have you ever read his dark materials by
[36:48] Philip Pullman? Who? Philip Pullman.
[36:51] It's this kids book series called His
[36:54] Dark Materials. It had the subtle knife
[36:56] in it, the golden compass. Oh. Uh, so
[36:59] it's it must be 30 years old. The first
[37:02] book must be at least 30 years old now
[37:03] cuz I was listening to it when I was 11,
[37:06] 12, 13, and it had been around for a
[37:07] while. I remember I used to go to the
[37:09] library in Norton in the northeast of
[37:12] England with my mom and I would get the
[37:14] story tapes and this is a big book. So
[37:17] I'd be coming back with a stack of tapes
[37:19] like that, borrowing them from the
[37:21] library for two weeks and we'd have to
[37:22] take them back before else we'd have to
[37:23] pay a fine one or something.
[37:25] And it's one of my favorite book series.
[37:27] And I actually read it, listened to it,
[37:29] I guess, in the wrong order. So I
[37:30] listened to The Subtle Knife first,
[37:32] which is the second book. And uh it kind
[37:34] of makes sense. The third one makes no
[37:36] sense at all. So you have to listen read
[37:37] the first two. Anyway, uh in this world,
[37:42] the children are born with demons, and
[37:45] the demons take the form of
[37:47] >> Does he use that word?
[37:47] >> Yes.
[37:48] >> Fantastic. I have to look this up.
[37:50] >> It's It's wonderful. And they take the
[37:52] form of an animal, like a little
[37:53] animals. to represent animals that are
[37:54] around. And when the uh kids are still
[37:58] children, the animals can change. They
[38:00] can cycle through. They can be a bird
[38:02] and fly ahead and go and do stuff or
[38:04] they can come back and and be a dog and
[38:05] and pet them or they can be a wolf and
[38:07] scare people.
[38:08] >> Wow.
[38:08] >> But when
[38:11] children hit puberty,
[38:13] the Damon settles into a final form and
[38:16] it never changes again for the rest of
[38:18] life. And there's these themes of sort
[38:22] of Adam and Eve. There's a male and
[38:24] female protagonist, and they're both
[38:25] quite young, and they fall in love. And
[38:26] as they fall in love, they hit puberty.
[38:28] And as they do that, all of this stuff
[38:30] happens in the universe. And
[38:32] >> these two uh demons, these senses of
[38:36] self that were malleable, that were
[38:38] open, they're concretized, and they're
[38:41] locked in for the remainder of their
[38:42] lives. And this is what happens across
[38:44] across the universe. And it's so many of
[38:47] the themes from that series by Pullman
[38:50] and what you're talking about here.
[38:50] There's you're young, you're innocent,
[38:52] everything is open, there's a kind of
[38:54] malleability, there's a flow that you
[38:56] have. And then over time, this rigidity
[38:58] comes in and things begin to look a
[39:00] little bit more sort of
[39:01] >> not stale, but rigid and and and
[39:05] structured and procedural in a way. And
[39:07] and why is that the case? And you have
[39:09] to sort of listen to this voice. And a
[39:11] lot of the time the animal sits on the
[39:12] shoulder of the person and it's sort of
[39:14] whispering whispering in their ear
[39:15] telling them what it is that they think
[39:16] they should do.
[39:17] >> It's cool.
[39:18] >> I'm totally I'm totally enchanted by
[39:20] this. This is fantastic.
[39:21] >> Beautiful series,
[39:22] >> but it's also sounds kind of dark and
[39:24] depressing in a way because you you're
[39:26] giving children this idea that they're
[39:27] going to that this wonderful world is
[39:29] going to end and it's going to be
[39:30] concretized. It's going to become this
[39:32] rigid single form.
[39:33] >> Yeah. To some degree. Uh, I think
[39:36] capacities are unlocked when that
[39:37] happens though and a lot of the children
[39:38] want they're excited to see what form
[39:41] their animal will take. And I think this
[39:42] is maybe to do with um where are your
[39:46] values going to come from? Like who are
[39:47] you going to be? Cuz when you're a kid,
[39:49] like who are you? You're kind of a
[39:50] fireman one day and a postman the next
[39:52] day, an astronaut the day after that.
[39:53] You're not a person yet. So yes, you
[39:56] have all of the advantages of being open
[39:57] and freely formed and flowing through
[39:59] the world. Oh my god. Look, I'm
[40:00] imagining the Indians playing in the
[40:02] trees over far side,
[40:03] >> but also like you're not a thing yet.
[40:06] You don't really have what do you stand
[40:07] for? Like you ask a kid what their core
[40:08] values are. Like what do you mean?
[40:10] >> Um but as an adult, you all right,
[40:12] there's going to be a degree of
[40:13] structure that I have and in some ways
[40:14] that gives me something to push off
[40:16] against when the world starts to push
[40:18] into me.
[40:18] >> Right. Right.
[40:20] >> Uh so I think there's I can see how it
[40:22] would be both sort of beauty and and
[40:24] challenge. I guess thinking about the
[40:26] Damon, Plato brought this up.
[40:28] >> Yes. And then he was killed.
[40:30] >> Carl Young Socrates, sorry. Plato
[40:33] brought this up, but he was pushed back
[40:35] against at least I think for for using
[40:36] that as an analogy. Carl Young brought
[40:38] it up.
[40:39] >> Yeah.
[40:39] >> And then he went insane a little bit.
[40:43] >> Carl Young touched the edges of of
[40:45] sanity a couple of times. Would you not
[40:46] say?
[40:48] uh he had mystical experiences when he
[40:51] was in his like 30s and then he had a
[40:53] near-death experience which I t write
[40:55] about in his 40s
[40:57] >> and then he went you know if you
[40:59] consider going into into ancient
[41:01] cultures and his whole world that he
[41:03] creates in his booksim insanity maybe
[41:06] but he was a very high functioning
[41:08] psychoanalyst
[41:09] >> I would that's that's fair my my point
[41:12] being here I think that um a lot of
[41:15] people who go into the world of the
[41:18] Damon.
[41:19] >> Yeah,
[41:20] >> it seems to be an arc. It seems to be
[41:22] quite a common arc for someone that is
[41:24] specifically interested in investigating
[41:26] human nature, psychology, [snorts]
[41:28] history, philosophy, that world. Why is
[41:31] that going from ignorance to knowledge
[41:34] to something deeper, something more
[41:36] transcendent? Is that do you think a a
[41:39] typical arc that a lot of uh thinkers go
[41:42] through? Well, uh, I use for one of the
[41:46] archetypes of the Don the story of
[41:48] Friedrich Nichzche. And if anybody went
[41:50] insane, he went insane. [laughter] So
[41:53] that fits what you were saying more than
[41:54] Carl Young.
[41:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[41:56] >> And the story of Nietze was he he's the
[41:59] son of a pastor who's extremely
[42:01] religious who plays the organ in church.
[42:04] And as a boy, Nichze is extremely
[42:06] religious. He loves his father. He's
[42:08] going to follow in his father's
[42:09] footstep. and his father dies of some
[42:11] neurological disorder and he his father
[42:13] kind of goes insane [snorts]
[42:15] >> and then his brother who's very young
[42:17] dies of the same disease. He's got some
[42:18] kind of neurological mishap going in on
[42:22] in his family and it's going to hit him
[42:23] at some point.
[42:25] >> So he's going to study really hard. He's
[42:27] going to be a Greek scholar. He's going
[42:28] to become a biblical scholar. He's going
[42:30] to become a pastor. He plays the piano.
[42:32] He'll play in the church organ. But he's
[42:34] restless and something isn't right. And
[42:36] the little Don is speaking inside of his
[42:38] ear and saying, "There's something else
[42:40] to you." And he's attracted to poets who
[42:43] kind of went insane. And and and his
[42:46] teachers say, "Don't listen. Don't look
[42:48] at that poet that's going to infect
[42:49] you." And then he becomes a professor at
[42:52] the university. He's established. His
[42:53] mother and his sister think he's on to a
[42:55] great career. He's got that kind of
[42:57] rigid the thing that you talk about, the
[42:59] animal has transformed into something
[43:01] rigid. He's a professor now. He becomes
[43:04] friends with the most famous composer at
[43:06] the time, Ricard Vagner, and everything
[43:09] is looks great, you know, but then that
[43:12] little Don, that little animal in him is
[43:14] saying, "That's not you. That's not you,
[43:16] Friedri. That's not you."
[43:18] >> And he quits his job and he quits the
[43:20] composer and he turns against everything
[43:22] and he just wanders through Italy and
[43:25] he's trying to find out who he is and he
[43:27] discovers that weather has an important
[43:30] part of him. So the weather
[43:33] >> climate
[43:34] >> climate
[43:36] >> this is like one of the most interesting
[43:37] things about this man. So Germany has
[43:40] this climate this coldness this dampness
[43:42] the sun doesn't shine and it's made him
[43:44] who he is. So he goes to Italy and he
[43:47] sees this bright intense light and these
[43:49] weird kind of storms and he realized
[43:51] that's who I am. I'm this is the climate
[43:54] that suits me. This is the geography
[43:56] that suits me. I become like an Italian
[43:59] and I change myself and books explode
[44:02] out of him. He's suddenly who he who he
[44:04] was meant to be. The some of the
[44:06] greatest most inspired books anyone has
[44:08] ever read. I know I read him when I was
[44:12] 18 and it changed my life. He's the most
[44:15] probably the writer that had the biggest
[44:16] influence on me. And then he went mad.
[44:19] He literally broke one down one day as
[44:21] he's walking in Italy and he sees
[44:22] somebody beating a horse and he grabs
[44:26] the horse and he he feels so horrible.
[44:28] He identifies with the horse and then he
[44:30] collapses and he's insane for 10 last 10
[44:33] years of his life. He's a madman
[44:35] basically.
[44:36] >> So the Don taken too far can be a little
[44:41] bit dangerous like that. You know, he
[44:43] went a little bit too far. But it's not
[44:45] just thinkers and philosophers and
[44:48] weirdos. I have a story in there about
[44:51] an actress who had a dayon, Ingred
[44:54] Bergman, the famous Swedish actress, and
[44:58] how she knew from an early child that
[45:02] she was she loved to act, she loved to
[45:04] perform. And people kept trying to
[45:07] change her, people kept trying to push
[45:09] her off that course. and she just was so
[45:12] strong and she just pushed back and she
[45:14] became who she was and finally
[45:17] she uh she gets this reputation as being
[45:20] this perfect woman who's got a great
[45:23] husband who's beautiful and she just she
[45:26] leaves it all to go have an affair with
[45:28] an Italian director and now she's like
[45:31] this and everybody hates her and
[45:34] she's vilified
[45:36] >> but it's who she actually is. She
[45:39] actually never was this kind of perfect
[45:40] creature. So it's not just philosophers.
[45:44] It can affect anybody. It's like
[45:46] something buried deep within you. And
[45:49] your question is does it lead to
[45:51] something like transcendent? I believe
[45:54] it does because
[45:57] why are you unique? Why was it why were
[46:00] you drawn to those stories when you were
[46:02] four? How old were you when you were
[46:04] reading them?
[46:05] >> 13.
[46:05] >> Oh, 13. You were older.
[46:06] >> Yeah. Y
[46:07] >> why were you so drawn to those stories?
[46:10] What is it about you that makes you like
[46:12] that?
[46:13] >> I mean other children may be interested,
[46:15] but you were just drawn to it in some
[46:17] very powerful way.
[46:19] >> Maybe you you intuited back then that
[46:22] you were going to become something like
[46:23] who you are now, somebody very unique
[46:26] with your own podcast, your own style.
[46:28] You know, you I think I don't remember
[46:30] what you were doing before you did this.
[46:32] >> Running nightclubs.
[46:32] >> Running nightclubs, right? You weren't
[46:34] you. That was that isn't who you are.
[46:37] That isn't that animal that was on your
[46:40] shoulder that was changing shapes. It's
[46:41] like this, right? And now you get to be
[46:44] yourself, right? Who is that self?
[46:48] You were born and something different
[46:50] about you. Your neurology, the way your
[46:52] brain is wired, how your body functions
[46:54] is different. Why is it different?
[46:56] What's the point? What's the purpose?
[46:58] The purpose was for you to be creating
[47:00] this podcast, modern wisdom, and
[47:03] teaching people and getting them outside
[47:05] of their narrow little worlds. Right?
[47:08] So, it does have a transcendent function
[47:09] in that it connects you with something
[47:11] greater than yourself. How does someone
[47:14] recognize the difference between the
[47:16] Damon speaking their truth forward, the
[47:20] logos being projected and impulsivity,
[47:24] short- termism, their more base
[47:26] instincts, their coping mechanisms, the
[47:29] paths of least resistance, their fears
[47:31] masquerading as wisdom but actually just
[47:33] being uh
[47:37] compensation coming up inside of them.
[47:40] I can imagine in one world a person
[47:42] could convince themselves that this is
[47:43] actually their inner truth but is much
[47:47] closer to something like yeah
[47:50] impulsivity.
[47:51] >> Well I mean uh you people will ask well
[47:54] Hitler Hitler had a don right but I I
[47:57] make the point in there that in the
[48:00] Greek trai ancient um myth the don was
[48:04] planted inside of you by aeros the god
[48:06] of love. And so if what you use the
[48:10] dayon for has that element of love and
[48:13] excitement and something personal, then
[48:16] you have your soul, then you realize
[48:18] your damon. But if that is not connected
[48:20] to anything having to do with love, the
[48:22] demon turns into the demonic, the
[48:24] demonic.
[48:26] >> People who who listen to that voice and
[48:28] they acquire power and they hurt people
[48:30] and they manipulate and they destroy and
[48:32] they're evil. They are truly demonic
[48:34] because their don is not connected to
[48:37] something kind of playful and spiritual
[48:39] and transcendent. But to answer your
[48:43] question, um
[48:46] you hear all these voices in your head,
[48:49] right?
[48:50] We don't call them voices because we
[48:52] just think of it's just our minds are
[48:55] talking to us or they're saying things
[48:56] to us, right?
[48:58] >> You're going to smoke a pipe.
[48:59] >> It's a an e-pipe. When I feel like I'm
[49:02] pontificating and getting really close
[49:04] to something that's a a great highuting
[49:06] idea, I like to sit here and do this.
[49:08] >> Oh, please.
[49:09] >> So, my father smoked a Oh, is it
[49:12] actually have something in it?
[49:13] >> Yeah,
[49:13] >> it's vaping.
[49:14] >> Yeah.
[49:15] >> My father smoked a pipe and uh it has
[49:19] very deep memories for me.
[49:21] >> Okay.
[49:21] >> Like the smell of tobacco and the look
[49:23] of a pipe. I just
[49:25] >> I think this one is what? Peach and
[49:27] mango or something. It maybe a slightly
[49:28] different smell to the one that your
[49:29] father was smoking. Baron patriot.
[49:32] >> Yeah, he was doing hardcore tobacco.
[49:34] It's what it's ended up killing him. But
[49:36] uh
[49:37] >> what a shame. Well, I'm sure this will
[49:38] kill me, too.
[49:39] >> No, it won't. No. Anyway, um
[49:42] >> so you're hearing the you're hearing
[49:44] things about you. This is what I want.
[49:45] This is what I love. But it's not you.
[49:48] It's the voices of of the culture. It's
[49:50] the voices of friends. It's the voices
[49:51] of peers. And so I talk in there how you
[49:54] can differentiate
[49:56] those kind of ancillary voices that are
[49:59] constantly playing in your mind of what
[50:00] you think you like, the movies you want
[50:02] to go see, the clothes you want to wear,
[50:05] the the women or men you want to date,
[50:07] on and on and on. It's not who you are.
[50:09] It's a reflection of what other people
[50:11] other people's tastes. But your voice
[50:14] has a different feel to it, right? It's
[50:16] a different kind of excitement, right?
[50:20] So
[50:21] the things that you don't like, there
[50:23] are things that you hate but you do
[50:25] anyway,
[50:26] >> right? That's what life is about. A lot
[50:28] of social life is about, right? You have
[50:30] to do things that you don't really want
[50:32] to do,
[50:33] >> but you do them anyway.
[50:35] >> When you hear that day one, it tells
[50:37] you, "Fuck all that I just want to
[50:40] be myself. I don't want to go to that
[50:42] party. I don't want to have to cow town
[50:43] to this person. I don't want to have to
[50:45] do this horrible job as a as a club,
[50:49] whatever you were doing, right? It's an
[50:52] angry voice. It's a rebellious voice.
[50:54] It's that childhood impedence. It's an
[50:56] impedent voice saying, "Fuck all that.
[50:58] Sorry, I don't know if I'm
[51:00] >> um
[51:01] >> I don't want It's not for me. It's not
[51:02] who I am."
[51:04] >> That's real.
[51:05] >> That is definitely real. Mhm.
[51:07] >> I mean, it could there's I'm sure yes,
[51:10] you could say other people are telling
[51:12] you you need to rebel and do this, that,
[51:14] and the other, but it has a different
[51:16] feel to it when other people pe when
[51:18] it's the voice of other people as
[51:20] opposed to you. It's like waking up.
[51:22] It's like becoming who you were meant to
[51:24] become, right? M
[51:26] >> and so when you feel an excitement about
[51:30] something that you cannot explain like
[51:34] why am I Robert Green so excited by
[51:37] ancient cultures why am I so if I read a
[51:39] story about Neanderthalss
[51:42] who wow Neanderthalss
[51:46] are related to us they're very similar
[51:48] to us at the same brains but they were
[51:51] evolving a different kind of language a
[51:53] different kind of culture they had a
[51:55] different relationship to death. They
[51:56] had different rituals and they it's
[51:59] almost in by accident that homo sapiens
[52:02] survived and Neanderthalss didn't
[52:04] because we nearly went extinct. What
[52:06] would the world be like if So anyway,
[52:09] reading about Neanderthalss,
[52:11] I can't explain why it gets me so
[52:13] excited about our ancient ancient
[52:15] ancestors when it happens. I know that
[52:18] that is me. That's not somebody telling
[52:20] me to be interested in that because I've
[52:22] been interested since I was 8 years old,
[52:24] 5 years old, you know, kind of thing.
[52:26] >> In other news, have you ever noticed how
[52:28] some websites make it ridiculously easy
[52:30] to buy, while some feel infinitely
[52:32] harder?
[52:32] >> Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles
[52:34] to the local store.
[52:35] >> Aren't you younger than me?
[52:37] >> Yeah, but my dad got a DUI.
[52:40] >> Anyway, the reality is most businesses
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[52:44] setup is messy, you lose a ton of sales,
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[53:19] That's shopify.com/modernwisdom.
[53:22] I spoke to David Dada, you know, way of
[53:24] the superior man author. So, uh,
[53:28] illustrious longtime author and I I did
[53:31] his first podcast interview in over a
[53:33] decade, I think, a few months ago. And I
[53:36] did a bit of research. I didn't know
[53:38] much about him before I sat down with
[53:40] him. and he just had this crazy,
[53:45] as far as I could see, illogical career.
[53:47] Very illustrious, but totally illogical.
[53:49] He starts off in the 80s doing AI and
[53:54] computer science. Writes a ton of
[53:56] papers.
[53:57] >> What's his name again?
[53:58] >> David Da.
[53:59] >> Uh, writes a ton of papers. Data. Di.
[54:04] >> Okay.
[54:05] >> Data. Uh, Way of the Superior Man is a
[54:07] very, very, very popular book. um from
[54:09] about 30 years ago, 20 years ago. Uh
[54:11] anyway, he starts off computer science
[54:13] AI and then he decides he is going to
[54:17] leave that and he pivots into writing
[54:21] for a while. Then he goes into uh tantra
[54:26] and um
[54:29] reworking emotions through sex, right?
[54:32] >> Then he moves into yoga for a long time.
[54:34] Then he gets into masculinity and men.
[54:37] Then he goes back into doing hard he
[54:39] does hardcore ma he does a decade of
[54:41] hardcore mathematics like pure
[54:42] mathematics. Wow.
[54:43] >> Then he gets back into some AI stuff.
[54:45] And I asked him on the episode this to
[54:49] me just feels like a kind of quite
[54:52] unwieldy meandering
[54:55] trajectory. Can you explain to me how
[54:57] you tie all of these threads together?
[54:59] He said I have a very strong sense when
[55:02] something is no longer for me.
[55:04] >> Yeah. And so, okay, well, that's
[55:05] interesting, but a lot of people have
[55:06] that. And and it seems like you have
[55:08] just continually pulled the ejector seat
[55:10] button and fired yourself out the top of
[55:12] whatever aircraft you're in over and
[55:14] over again
[55:15] >> without fear that, well, I'm near the
[55:17] top of my industry in this one domain.
[55:20] Maybe if I leave it behind, I'm not
[55:21] going to be as good in the next one. I'm
[55:23] not going to be as respected. I'm going
[55:24] to do make a decision I regret in
[55:27] future.
[55:29] Yes, it's interesting that you've
[55:31] followed your own instinct and you've
[55:32] been interested in stuff, but what's
[55:33] more interesting to me is the
[55:35] decisiveness and the conviction that
[55:36] you've got about it. Like that's what's
[55:38] rare, right? Not the meandering
[55:40] interests. Curious people are curious
[55:42] about lots of things.
[55:43] >> And he said something like, "When I'm
[55:46] out of alignment, the pain of no longer
[55:50] following what I know that I should be
[55:53] doing is so much greater than the fear
[55:55] of anything else."
[55:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that just stuck
[55:58] with me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It really
[56:00] really stuck with me that he is
[56:02] >> I said it sounds like bravery, but the
[56:04] way that he frames it from the inside is
[56:06] a kind of fragility. His fragility is
[56:10] against being out of alignment with
[56:12] himself. It's like it is so painful like
[56:14] nails on a chalkboard at thousand dibels
[56:16] that I can't escape from. And if
[56:20] that feel
[56:28] for him, he says I can last about 5 days
[56:31] and then I just need to change and do
[56:33] something else.
[56:34] >> Yeah. Well, I I believe that a lot of
[56:37] people would be going through something
[56:38] similar, but they're afraid. They're
[56:41] afraid that if they make such a radical
[56:43] shift, they'll look insane to people.
[56:46] They won't be able to make a living. You
[56:48] know, money becomes the primary
[56:49] interest.
[56:51] >> And I'm not as interesting as as this
[56:54] gentleman because it sounds fantastic. I
[56:56] I'd love to meet him.
[56:57] >> I'll send you the episode.
[56:58] >> Okay. No, but I'd also like to meet him.
[57:00] Where does he live?
[57:00] >> Uh he's in Florida. He's very very
[57:03] reclusive. Interestingly enough, we had
[57:05] to do the episode. He wouldn't turn his
[57:08] video on. He wanted to just remain. He's
[57:11] like, "Chris, I'm going to do this. It's
[57:12] the first first episode I've done in 10
[57:14] years, but you're only going to get my
[57:15] voice." So, we had to AI some beautiful
[57:17] landscape that was sort of an imaginary
[57:19] hymn. And we we put words over the
[57:21] title. So, for a full hourong episode,
[57:23] and people loved it. We still did.
[57:24] Really really people like, "Oh my god, I
[57:25] can't believe I get to hear David data."
[57:27] So, anyway, he's he's a kind of like a
[57:29] mysterious guy, which adds more to the
[57:31] kind of wow, what a nonfungeible human.
[57:34] Yeah, very much so. Yeah. Well, I'm not
[57:36] as interesting as that, but I feel that
[57:39] myself. So, um, I wrote the 48 Laws of
[57:43] Power when I was 39 essentially, and I'd
[57:47] been, um, pretty much a loser up until
[57:49] then. Parents about to give up on me,
[57:52] their their son who can't seem to hold a
[57:54] job for more than a few months.
[57:56] >> I finally write this book. I get more
[57:59] money than I've ever seen in my entire
[58:01] life, right? Um, and things are looking
[58:05] up pretty good. And so now it's time to
[58:07] like write a second book. And the
[58:11] pressure on me is to kind of just kind
[58:12] of create the another version of the 48
[58:15] laws of power.
[58:16] >> Y
[58:17] >> and because it it is it's doing very
[58:19] well and people So I decide I mean
[58:23] seduction is is kind of related to it,
[58:26] but it's it's not what what my
[58:28] publishers wanted. It's not what my my
[58:31] partner wanted me to do. But it felt
[58:34] like something I it felt it connected to
[58:36] my soul. It connected to something deep
[58:37] in me because seduction has been a
[58:40] subject that's fascinated me since my
[58:42] 20s when I was a rake and I listen read
[58:46] a lot of books about literature of
[58:48] seduction and I met great seducers. So I
[58:50] had to write this book because it
[58:52] connected to me. All of my books have
[58:54] had that evolution where I don't repeat
[58:56] what was in the last book. I have to
[58:59] feel something very new, something very
[59:01] different, something very fresh. And
[59:03] when I don't, I have that painful
[59:05] feeling like this doesn't fit me. This
[59:08] isn't who I am.
[59:10] >> And um I remember I got to do that book
[59:14] with 50 Cent uh which was, you know, an
[59:17] unusual uh opportunity to say the least.
[59:21] >> Yeah.
[59:21] >> And um the first version of the book was
[59:25] cancelled because it wasn't good.
[59:28] And uh it was also late, but I knew it
[59:30] wasn't good because
[59:32] the book was really about 50 Cent. It
[59:34] wasn't about me. It wasn't my taste, my
[59:37] interest, my desires. And I knew when I
[59:40] was writing it, I was uncomfortable with
[59:41] it. It was all about business and 50
[59:44] negotiating this that and the other and
[59:47] what his what his empire was like. And
[59:50] it didn't feel comfortable me. I was I
[59:52] was feeling that pain that he's
[59:54] discussing there. And then finally the
[59:57] book was cancelled and I realized it was
[59:59] canceled because I wasn't in it. It
[1:00:00] wasn't something soulful for me. It
[1:00:02] didn't mean anything to me. And so we we
[1:00:04] pivoted and the book that became more my
[1:00:08] book,
[1:00:09] you know, a lot of 50 in it, but there
[1:00:11] was much more of me being put into it,
[1:00:13] my way of thinking, my ideas, what
[1:00:15] excites me. Then the book took off. So
[1:00:19] every book has to feel like I'm deeply
[1:00:22] deeply engaged. like it has to be
[1:00:25] something new. And this this new book,
[1:00:28] which is probably going to shock people
[1:00:30] because they're used to me doing what is
[1:00:31] you said, books on manipulation and and
[1:00:34] psych human psychology.
[1:00:36] I had to do it even if it's even if it's
[1:00:39] an abysmal failure because my day was
[1:00:42] saying this is what you have to do. So I
[1:00:44] understand
[1:00:45] >> that sense of discomfort and pain. It
[1:00:47] doesn't fit me. It's not right. It's
[1:00:49] nails on a chalkboard. I can't do it. I
[1:00:51] just can't do it. What's your advice to
[1:00:53] people that wish they had more bravery
[1:00:55] when it comes to committing what they
[1:00:57] feel they know is true inside?
[1:01:00] >> Well, I I talked a lot about that in the
[1:01:03] book Mastery. Um, so what I tell people
[1:01:07] is you could go on through your 20s and
[1:01:10] your 30s following a career path
[1:01:14] that makes you money, that g gets you a
[1:01:16] family, gives you stability, but isn't
[1:01:19] quite you. And then you get into your
[1:01:22] 40s and that sense of discomfort kind of
[1:01:25] grows and maybe you get a little
[1:01:27] disengaged from your work and maybe you
[1:01:30] go have an affair with your secretary
[1:01:32] and some kind of drama happens. Maybe
[1:01:34] you start taking this kind of drug or
[1:01:36] something like that or you gain a lot of
[1:01:38] weight. Then you're in your 50s and
[1:01:40] you're kind of locked into this and
[1:01:42] Jesus Christ, where am I going? Well,
[1:01:44] it's too late to change. I'm just going
[1:01:46] to settle into it.
[1:01:47] >> You're on then you're like it's too
[1:01:49] late, right? It's very very painful,
[1:01:52] very very painful to kind of wake up and
[1:01:55] realize that you headed in the wrong
[1:01:57] direction in life.
[1:01:59] >> And so what I tell people is
[1:02:03] particularly if you're in your 20s, you
[1:02:05] don't want that to happen to you. And so
[1:02:08] you think that money and stability is
[1:02:11] the only thing that matters, but it's
[1:02:12] not. You have to have a sense of
[1:02:15] adventure. You have to have a sense of
[1:02:16] exploring. You have to have some courage
[1:02:18] in this world to pursue something that
[1:02:21] suits you and isn't necessarily going to
[1:02:23] make you as big an income as this other
[1:02:26] career path, you know. And so you have
[1:02:30] to realize that you're going to pay a
[1:02:31] price for violating this law, for
[1:02:35] violating this need, this law of who you
[1:02:38] actually are. You're going to pay a
[1:02:39] price. And that is you're going to
[1:02:42] disengage from your work.
[1:02:44] you're going to start having [snorts]
[1:02:45] habits and addictions and things because
[1:02:48] your body will your body tells you the
[1:02:51] truth.
[1:02:52] >> You know, I know physically I feel
[1:02:54] uncomfortable and and this man David
[1:02:57] probably would tell you the same thing.
[1:02:59] It's a physical sensation. Your body is
[1:03:00] going to rebel at some point. You're
[1:03:02] going to get illnesses. You're going to
[1:03:04] become diabetic. You're going to start
[1:03:05] gaining weight. You've disconnected from
[1:03:08] the reality of who you actually are. You
[1:03:10] will pay a price. I try and hit people
[1:03:12] in the brain with that and say, "Look,
[1:03:15] you you don't want that fate." I was
[1:03:18] talking, this is slightly related, I was
[1:03:21] talking to a man who's a basketball
[1:03:23] coach of a G-League team, uh, which is
[1:03:27] the league before you get into the NBA,
[1:03:30] very successful,
[1:03:32] and he was now offered the head coaching
[1:03:35] job of this NBA team because and he's in
[1:03:38] his 30s and he and he was expressing
[1:03:41] that fear of I have this really
[1:03:44] comfortable job and I made all these
[1:03:47] great relationships and now I'm going to
[1:03:49] enter this world where people are
[1:03:50] everyone's going to see me, everyone's
[1:03:52] going to judge me, I can easily fail.
[1:03:54] You know, my reputation will be ruined
[1:03:57] and I won't have this chance to go back
[1:03:58] to where I was. And I told him, "Take
[1:04:02] the job. Don't look back. You're going
[1:04:04] to learn so much more. Being young and
[1:04:07] excited will be an advantage for you
[1:04:09] over all these other kind of retread
[1:04:11] coaches in the NBA. It's going to be the
[1:04:14] best thing you have. Don't be afraid.
[1:04:17] Your fear is holding you back. Just go
[1:04:19] for it. He He did and and uh his team
[1:04:22] won the NBA championship. You
[1:04:24] >> No way.
[1:04:25] >> Yeah. Not last year, but the year
[1:04:27] before.
[1:04:28] >> Um it took him like five years to get
[1:04:31] there. Don't get me wrong. It wasn't
[1:04:33] like the next first season he they won a
[1:04:35] championship. But your fear is holding
[1:04:39] you back and your fear is making it seem
[1:04:41] like you're being reasonable, but in
[1:04:44] fact you're just afraid and you're just
[1:04:46] listening to the voices and you're just
[1:04:47] listening to your spouse or whomever
[1:04:49] who's trying to tell you to take the
[1:04:51] safe route. My wife can tell you this
[1:04:53] story. Years ago in the '9s, my mother I
[1:04:57] had cuz I told you I was a loser. I had
[1:04:59] I was jumping I couldn't hold a job for
[1:05:01] more than 5 months. I finally had a job
[1:05:04] in television in Hollywood, right?
[1:05:07] Looked like stability finally landed on
[1:05:09] Robert's shoulders
[1:05:12] and I was I couldn't stand it. I hated
[1:05:14] it. It was like the most miserable
[1:05:15] period of my life and I was going to
[1:05:18] quit and my mother tried to convince my
[1:05:21] then girlfriend to tell Robert he's got
[1:05:24] to keep this job. I mean, what's he he's
[1:05:26] crazy. What's he doing?
[1:05:28] And um I you know I I had to ignore that
[1:05:31] completely and and and incur their
[1:05:35] disappointment and and everything else
[1:05:36] and just I quit cuz I couldn't stand it,
[1:05:39] >> you know. But I could have listened to
[1:05:41] my mother. I could have listened to
[1:05:42] voices that told me,
[1:05:45] "You're 35 years old. Time to settle
[1:05:47] down, Robert. Time to get into a job
[1:05:49] trying to get into that niche in
[1:05:51] Hollywood. Become a television writer.
[1:05:53] And you make a good income. And yeah,
[1:05:55] I'll make a good income, but I'll kill
[1:05:57] myself in 10 years. [laughter]
[1:06:01] [gasps]
[1:06:01] >> All right, getting back to the
[1:06:03] >> sublime.
[1:06:04] >> Sublime, please.
[1:06:05] >> What's the importance of scale? How can
[1:06:08] vastness contribute to the way that we
[1:06:10] process life?
[1:06:13] Well, uh, the idea of scale is is very
[1:06:16] important to me because,
[1:06:19] you know, animals, God bless them, they
[1:06:21] have their their interesting, strange
[1:06:23] consciousness, but they're not aware of
[1:06:27] anything outside of their immediate
[1:06:29] environment. They don't know what's
[1:06:31] happening outside what they can see or
[1:06:33] smell, right? They're not aware of here,
[1:06:36] I'm in America and what's going on in
[1:06:38] China. Okay? No animal has that. We have
[1:06:42] consciousness and we're aware of things
[1:06:46] on the other side of the planet on the
[1:06:48] what's going on in the sky with our sun
[1:06:51] and and beyond that, right? And so when
[1:06:55] you open your eyes to that and you
[1:06:56] literally take it in,
[1:06:59] the first thought is my god am I
[1:07:03] insignificant. I am so small. Right? The
[1:07:08] universe is 13.8 8 billion years. I live
[1:07:11] maybe, if I'm lucky, 80 years. You try
[1:07:14] and and divide 13.8 billion by 80 and
[1:07:17] you go, Jesus Christ, my life is like
[1:07:20] nothing. It's like a life of a fly. It's
[1:07:23] like passes by enough time. You think of
[1:07:25] the distances and how immense things
[1:07:28] are. You are so small. You also there
[1:07:32] are 8 billion people on Earth. You're
[1:07:34] one of 8 billion people. You're you're
[1:07:36] in you're you're meaningless. You're so
[1:07:39] small. Okay, that sense of scale and
[1:07:42] being aware of how small you are and how
[1:07:45] infantessimal, how you're like just a
[1:07:47] piece of dust has two effects on you.
[1:07:50] Number one, it's kind of, oh my god, I
[1:07:53] feel horrible. On the other hand, that's
[1:07:56] insane that I am aware of this vastness,
[1:07:59] that I am aware of time, that I am part
[1:08:01] of this incredible drama, right? that I
[1:08:05] can be aware of endless time. I can be
[1:08:08] aware of a limitless universe kind of
[1:08:11] thing.
[1:08:13] Children have that sensation. It's kind
[1:08:15] of dizzying to feel that, to be aware of
[1:08:17] it, to be aware of the vastness of
[1:08:20] things. It puts everything in
[1:08:22] perspective. It makes you realize that
[1:08:24] the little bitty concerns that you have
[1:08:26] in the moment aren't really that
[1:08:28] important in the long scheme of things.
[1:08:30] In fact, they're incredibly unimportant.
[1:08:33] When you're a child, that smallalness is
[1:08:37] very apparent because you literally are
[1:08:39] small. You literally are weak and
[1:08:41] vulnerable. And because of that, you're
[1:08:44] curious. You want to know. Everything
[1:08:47] seems interesting and exciting and
[1:08:49] weird. And you look up at the night sky
[1:08:52] and it like it has that sense of terror
[1:08:54] and excitement which is the sublime in
[1:08:57] essence a mix of these two powerful
[1:08:59] emotions
[1:09:01] >> and that's what gives you the intensity
[1:09:03] of your experience that sense of scale
[1:09:05] of of how small you are. But then you
[1:09:08] get older and your ego takes over and
[1:09:10] you you become the center of the
[1:09:13] universe instead of you being this tiny
[1:09:15] little insignificant ant, right? and
[1:09:18] everything revolves around you and your
[1:09:20] desires and your needs and and and all
[1:09:23] that. You don't you don't want to feel
[1:09:24] vulnerable. You don't want to feel that
[1:09:26] smallalness, that weakness, that
[1:09:27] helplessness. But the price you pay for
[1:09:30] reversing the true scale of things is
[1:09:33] that life loses that intensity. It loses
[1:09:36] that little extra thing that happens
[1:09:37] when you're aware of how short your life
[1:09:40] is. when you're aware of of how immense
[1:09:44] things are and you pay a price and
[1:09:46] things get kind of flat, right? Because
[1:09:50] everything revolves around you. When you
[1:09:52] go out, take a hike on a mountain and
[1:09:55] you're just thinking about your own
[1:09:56] problems and your own world and you're
[1:09:58] not seeing things. You're not seeing the
[1:10:00] vastness of the landscape around you.
[1:10:03] And so having a sense of scale of of
[1:10:06] what's truly matters of how truly small
[1:10:09] and insignificant you are to me is a
[1:10:12] very very important part of becoming
[1:10:15] conscious of being a human being and
[1:10:18] people lose that as they get older
[1:10:20] >> and you want to return to that sense of
[1:10:22] scale. Does that make any sense?
[1:10:23] >> It does indeed. I imagine as well you
[1:10:25] you mentioned your uh ponchant for
[1:10:28] history
[1:10:29] obsession with history. All of your
[1:10:31] books have got huge historical content.
[1:10:32] Maybe not usually as far back as
[1:10:34] Neanderthalss, but still uh I imagine
[1:10:37] that reading history can give us greater
[1:10:40] perspective, access to the sublime as
[1:10:42] well. [gasps]
[1:10:44] Yeah. I mean, um
[1:10:47] so when you're history gives you several
[1:10:50] things. First of all, you think
[1:10:51] everything is new and everything is
[1:10:53] different and exciting like AI and
[1:10:56] social media. Yeah, they didn't have AI.
[1:10:58] I I grant you that. So that's new. But
[1:11:01] we've always had kind of versions of
[1:11:03] social media. People have always been
[1:11:05] gossiping about other people. People
[1:11:06] have always been sharing information.
[1:11:08] It's just now on a much wider level. But
[1:11:12] nothing is ever news. History runs in
[1:11:14] these cycles and you see them over and
[1:11:16] over and over again.
[1:11:17] >> [gasps]
[1:11:17] >> I just read an article in the newspaper
[1:11:20] this morning about how there's this
[1:11:22] trend in Spain where all the young
[1:11:24] people in their early 20s are rebelling
[1:11:27] against the socialist government and
[1:11:30] they're wanting to become conservative
[1:11:32] and go back to the traditional Spain
[1:11:34] that they knew and they all dress like
[1:11:36] preppies. They wear khaki pants and
[1:11:39] white shirts and start shirts and very
[1:11:41] kind of English style of like English
[1:11:45] nobility kind of thing and loafers.
[1:11:47] Loafers with little, you know, tassels
[1:11:50] and all that stuff.
[1:11:51] >> Yeah, I can get down with that. Hey, the
[1:11:52] more English the world becomes, I'm
[1:11:53] happy with that.
[1:11:54] >> Okay.
[1:11:55] >> They're called Cayanos because the name
[1:11:57] Cayotano is a very kind of uh, you know,
[1:12:00] upper class name that you give to a boy.
[1:12:03] And so they're all getting into this and
[1:12:05] the women are getting it's like being
[1:12:07] dressing traditional and loving bull
[1:12:09] fights and going to bull fighting and
[1:12:11] not liking immigrants and trying to go
[1:12:13] back and even interest in in Franco and
[1:12:17] in the fascist period of Spain. Well,
[1:12:19] it's a reaction. Young people are
[1:12:22] continually reacting against what is is
[1:12:25] fashionable from their previous
[1:12:26] generation. Right? When I was growing
[1:12:29] up, we were react. It was the 70s and
[1:12:32] 60s and we were rebelling. We were
[1:12:33] angry, hated every all the conservative
[1:12:35] stuff going on. We wanted to be
[1:12:38] hippies. We wanted to take drugs. We
[1:12:40] were reacting. So, every generation
[1:12:44] reacts to what happened before and goes
[1:12:46] in this new direction thinking, "God,
[1:12:48] we're so subversive. We're so new." But
[1:12:51] it's not new. It's what has happened for
[1:12:53] thousands of years. And even in ancient
[1:12:55] Babylonia, they were complaining about
[1:12:57] how the young generation, there's a
[1:12:59] tablet, one of the earliest tablets,
[1:13:01] about how young people are ignoring
[1:13:02] their elders and wanting to go off in
[1:13:04] some new direction. You read history,
[1:13:06] you realize it's a cycle. It just
[1:13:09] continually happens over and over again.
[1:13:10] It puts things in perspective.
[1:13:14] The other thing is, you don't realize,
[1:13:16] but you're walking around in a world of
[1:13:18] ghosts. Dead people are everywhere
[1:13:21] around you. They live inside of your
[1:13:24] brain. You don't you you don't Your
[1:13:27] language that you have was created
[1:13:30] thousands of years ago. It evolved.
[1:13:32] That's where your thoughts come from.
[1:13:34] Your thoughts aren't your own. They're
[1:13:36] built out of all these little mo these
[1:13:38] little moments and language as it as it
[1:13:40] evolved, right? Your brain is structured
[1:13:42] from all this evolution and things that
[1:13:44] happened earlier on. Your consciousness
[1:13:46] was something that was built over
[1:13:48] thousands of years. your values, what
[1:13:51] you value as a human being, the fact
[1:13:54] that you feel envy, the fact that you're
[1:13:56] wary of strangers. These are all things
[1:13:58] that people felt 10,000 years ago. And
[1:14:02] so you're not you're not you think that
[1:14:05] everything is new and fresh, but you're
[1:14:06] actually it's like a necropolis, I say,
[1:14:09] that we live in. The dead are
[1:14:11] everywhere. They're all around us.
[1:14:13] They're in our values. They're in our
[1:14:14] clothes. They're in our systems. They're
[1:14:16] in our thoughts. They're in our music.
[1:14:18] They're in everything. Everything human
[1:14:20] is structured according to certain codes
[1:14:22] that have been invented have been around
[1:14:24] for thousands of years.
[1:14:25] >> Mhm.
[1:14:26] >> History makes you aware of all the dead
[1:14:28] that are around you. They're inside of
[1:14:30] you. It makes you aware that nothing is
[1:14:32] new. It's a liberating sublime feeling
[1:14:35] to to d into history. In other news, if
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[1:15:30] rpstrength.com/modernwisdom
[1:15:32] and modernwisdom at checkout. How do you
[1:15:35] think that helps people to access a
[1:15:38] sense of reality around what their life
[1:15:40] is consisting of right now? [gasps]
[1:15:45] Well, I mean, sometimes
[1:15:49] not everything has to be um helping you
[1:15:53] in in in in your job or your career.
[1:15:56] Sometimes there are things that you need
[1:15:58] to incorporate in your life that have
[1:16:00] nothing to do with your day-to-day
[1:16:02] survival. And that's why
[1:16:05] for thousands of years people were
[1:16:07] interested in religion and that's what
[1:16:09] the value that religion provided people
[1:16:11] you know a sense of something
[1:16:13] transcendent of something greater than
[1:16:14] your life the sense of a collective
[1:16:16] belief system sense of ethics something
[1:16:19] greater than your individual life and
[1:16:21] people hungered for that right
[1:16:23] >> you need that in your life so being
[1:16:27] aware of history
[1:16:30] is not going to make your career fear
[1:16:33] any easier necessarily. It's not going
[1:16:35] to make you more money. It's just going
[1:16:37] to make it's going to make you more
[1:16:38] human because
[1:16:41] we are creatures of history, right?
[1:16:45] Everything that happens, it has context,
[1:16:48] comes back, goes back decades, hundreds
[1:16:51] of years. It's all part of a a chain
[1:16:53] that is continuous. It has a context.
[1:16:56] There are reasons why we think this way.
[1:16:58] There's a reason why Donald Trump is the
[1:17:00] president now. that you could explain
[1:17:03] going back to all sorts of other things
[1:17:05] happening in America, going back to the
[1:17:07] 18th century if you want, going back to
[1:17:12] ancient times if you want. It's all part
[1:17:14] of a single chain. And
[1:17:17] when I see people who have no sense of
[1:17:19] history, who don't realize who their
[1:17:22] only reference points are things that
[1:17:23] have happened since the year 2000,
[1:17:26] I think, God, you're not really human.
[1:17:29] >> You're not really connecting to what it
[1:17:30] means. It's not like you have to be a
[1:17:32] deep student of history, but you have to
[1:17:35] be aware that history has formed you,
[1:17:37] that history has formed your values, it
[1:17:39] has formed the world around you. So,
[1:17:41] it's not going to make you more money.
[1:17:43] It's just I think it's going to make
[1:17:46] Yeah. Do people become easy to
[1:17:48] manipulate when they've got no
[1:17:49] historical context, do you think?
[1:17:51] >> Yeah,
[1:17:52] very much so. I mean
[1:17:56] uh so everything everything is in the
[1:17:59] present you know everything you you see
[1:18:01] it's all like what social media is
[1:18:03] telling you what the algorithms are
[1:18:06] saying and it's making you angry and
[1:18:10] it's making you fascinated you you know
[1:18:12] you you you see this thing on Instagram
[1:18:14] god damn it why is he doing it and if
[1:18:17] you had any kind of context if you had
[1:18:19] any kind of distance and if you had any
[1:18:20] sense of history you would know that
[1:18:23] people been have been playing on your
[1:18:25] emotions and they've been playing on
[1:18:26] your emotions in the 1930s, you know,
[1:18:30] with Hitler that there's a trend for for
[1:18:32] for uh demagogues and propaganda.
[1:18:36] You would have some distance from your
[1:18:38] own reactions. You would be able to see
[1:18:41] that people are manipulating you because
[1:18:43] you're not so tied into the images that
[1:18:46] are flashing before your mind here. and
[1:18:48] you would step back and you would go,
[1:18:50] maybe there's something else going on
[1:18:52] here than what I'm actually seeing.
[1:18:54] >> It is interesting to think, hey,
[1:18:58] human psychological bias hasn't changed
[1:19:00] that much over the last few thousand
[1:19:02] years.
[1:19:03] There are many, but not an unlimited
[1:19:06] number of ways for people that want to
[1:19:09] control you or manipulate your opinion
[1:19:10] or constrain what you think that you can
[1:19:12] do with your life or make you feel a
[1:19:14] certain thing even though you're kind of
[1:19:16] maybe not that justified in feeling it
[1:19:17] or stop you from feeling a thing when
[1:19:19] you are justified in feeling it.
[1:19:23] there are a number of ideological
[1:19:27] gravitational wells that have sucked in
[1:19:29] and these will be the patterns that are
[1:19:30] used over and over and over again and
[1:19:33] that um history doesn't repeat but it
[1:19:36] often rhymes thing like I think history
[1:19:38] just straight up repeats a lot of the
[1:19:40] time or at least individual actors and
[1:19:42] the tactics that are used to do the
[1:19:44] rapper that's around it. I remember
[1:19:45] seeing this uh concern that was written
[1:19:51] around the time of the printing press
[1:19:53] that if people were able to read more
[1:19:56] freely, especially in the common
[1:19:58] language, that this would be the undoing
[1:20:01] of the brains, people would be so lost
[1:20:04] in in books and and in reading these
[1:20:06] words that they would become completely
[1:20:08] disconnected from the world around them.
[1:20:09] >> Right? And I guess the odd lie that
[1:20:14] everybody tells themselves, it's almost
[1:20:15] a little bit like a Pascal's wager that
[1:20:18] Yeah, but this time it's different.
[1:20:21] >> Oh, yeah.
[1:20:22] >> Yeah, but this time it's different. For
[1:20:25] some reason, and every single time, at
[1:20:27] least in my lifetime, smartphones felt
[1:20:30] different. The internet felt different.
[1:20:32] AI absolutely feels different.
[1:20:35] >> Yes.
[1:20:37] But you have this very long illustrious
[1:20:41] record of people saying, "Yeah, but this
[1:20:43] time it's different." over and over and
[1:20:44] over again and it not being different.
[1:20:46] >> No. So, okay. So, let's say AI is not
[1:20:51] something we've ever seen before, right?
[1:20:53] And the smartphone was something we've
[1:20:54] never really seen before, but it's based
[1:20:57] on human psychology. Humans created it.
[1:20:59] It's something we have invented. And
[1:21:02] what I talked about in the laws of human
[1:21:03] nature is human beings have a shadow,
[1:21:06] have a dark side. Everybody has a dark
[1:21:08] side. Even you, Chris Williamson, has a
[1:21:11] dark side. I'm afraid to say
[1:21:12] >> British. No dark side.
[1:21:13] >> What?
[1:21:14] >> I'm British. No dark side.
[1:21:16] >> I used to see pass by a theater um in in
[1:21:20] in London. It said something,
[1:21:23] >> please no sex, I'm British. Or
[1:21:24] something. [laughter] What was that?
[1:21:26] >> Do you remember what that was? It was
[1:21:28] like playing Forever on the West End. Do
[1:21:31] you don't remember what it was?
[1:21:32] >> I don't know what you're referring to,
[1:21:33] but it sounds it sounds incredible.
[1:21:34] >> I'm not interested in sex. I'm British
[1:21:36] or something.
[1:21:36] >> It's none for me. Thank you.
[1:21:37] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[1:21:38] Anyway, um we repress it. We don't want
[1:21:40] to be aware of it, but it's there. It's
[1:21:42] deep inside. It's all the anger and
[1:21:45] resentment we've had to bury because we
[1:21:46] have to smile and say, "I love you. You
[1:21:49] look great. Your screenplay is
[1:21:50] wonderful. I love what your ideas,
[1:21:52] boss." We bury all this anger and
[1:21:54] resentment. It's boiling inside. We have
[1:21:56] a dark side and it explodes. Right? That
[1:21:59] is a history that goes back thousands of
[1:22:01] years. So you invent the internet, it's
[1:22:04] something new and it starts out and it's
[1:22:06] all exciting and early 2000s. Wow, I can
[1:22:10] communicate with people in China. I can
[1:22:12] use Amazon to find people who are
[1:22:14] interested in the same music I'm in.
[1:22:16] It's fantastic. It's this like new
[1:22:18] theater. It's amazing. Then slowly by
[1:22:22] slowly it get goes down. And it gets
[1:22:24] degraded and degraded, degraded until it
[1:22:26] just becomes like junk that nobody wants
[1:22:28] anymore. It's just a platform for
[1:22:30] selling things and for manipulating
[1:22:32] people. AI, wow, it's going to create
[1:22:36] all the solutions to cancer. It's going
[1:22:38] to we're going to solve all the world's
[1:22:40] problems. We'll be able to figure out
[1:22:42] how to end global warming because of
[1:22:43] these machines. And now it's like
[1:22:46] scammers and people creating biological
[1:22:49] weapons and it's going to take over
[1:22:50] humanity. It's going to destroy us
[1:22:53] because everything human ends up falling
[1:22:56] into this dark tunnel that we are part
[1:22:58] of our nature. So criminals are going to
[1:23:01] take over AI. Who are these morons who
[1:23:04] don't realize that criminals are going
[1:23:05] to get their hands on this weapon? And
[1:23:08] how are you going to control that? And
[1:23:10] how are you going to keep people? You
[1:23:11] know, every single day, this isn't on
[1:23:13] the level of of anything apocalyptic.
[1:23:17] Every single day I get about 12 emails
[1:23:20] from scammers saying, "Uh, Robert, I
[1:23:24] read the 48 Laws of Power is wonderful.
[1:23:26] What struck me most about it was blah
[1:23:28] blah blah blah blah. I am the curator of
[1:23:31] a reading group in Greenwich, England,
[1:23:34] and I want to help get your spread your
[1:23:36] book to my 10,000 readers. Every single
[1:23:39] day I read a variation of that and it's
[1:23:42] like AI generates it, right? And it's a
[1:23:44] scam. Obviously, they're going to ask
[1:23:46] for money. But that's what happens with
[1:23:48] these things. Scammers, criminals,
[1:23:50] people of dark minds who don't have any
[1:23:52] inhibitions, they're going to use these
[1:23:55] tools and they're going to wreak havoc
[1:23:57] with it. Right? That's what's doesn't
[1:23:59] change.
[1:24:00] >> AI might be different, but human nature
[1:24:02] doesn't change and it they're going to
[1:24:05] pervert this.
[1:24:07] >> Has
[1:24:09] rational and scientific revolutions made
[1:24:12] it harder to access the sublime and more
[1:24:15] primal emotions as well?
[1:24:16] >> No. No, not at all. Um, science actually
[1:24:20] should be able to do the opposite. So
[1:24:22] you look at some of the most interesting
[1:24:24] scientists of the past several hundred
[1:24:27] years and um like Darwin had a very
[1:24:31] poetic nature and he had learning about
[1:24:34] evolution and how all of life was part
[1:24:36] of a single chain was a very kind of
[1:24:39] almost religious experience for him. It
[1:24:41] was intense. Albert Einstein I have many
[1:24:44] quotes in the book about Albert Einstein
[1:24:46] saying when you study physics and you
[1:24:48] study the laws of the universe it should
[1:24:51] fill you with this insane sense of awe
[1:24:53] and if it doesn't then you are as good
[1:24:54] as dead right all these other physicists
[1:24:58] shinger Heisenberg they all had this
[1:25:00] sense that they were uncovering
[1:25:01] something weird and strange about the
[1:25:04] universe and it made them shocked and it
[1:25:07] made them excited. Jane Goodall studying
[1:25:10] uh uh primates like how insane was that?
[1:25:13] The best scientists and there many many
[1:25:15] many of them even those neuroscientists
[1:25:18] are in awe of what they're discovering.
[1:25:21] So
[1:25:23] you know you you look in the paper uh
[1:25:26] like I read the other day that they're
[1:25:29] discovering the origins of black holes.
[1:25:32] astronomers they see these red dots on
[1:25:35] all the telescope these teles powerful
[1:25:38] telescopes and they now decided that
[1:25:41] those red dots are the earliest form of
[1:25:43] black holes and that they were formed
[1:25:47] in the beginning of the universe.
[1:25:50] Now you can look at that and just say
[1:25:52] it's a fact and okay wow black holes.
[1:25:55] Yeah. Yeah. But then you could go with
[1:25:57] your imagination and go close to the
[1:26:00] beginning of the universe. You mean like
[1:26:03] like a few million years after the
[1:26:04] universe there are these things out
[1:26:06] there that they're seeing and that
[1:26:08] scientists are able to like take these
[1:26:10] red dots and extrapolate that they're
[1:26:13] actually black holes. And then what is a
[1:26:15] black hole? It's something so powerful
[1:26:18] that gravity uh is not powerful and
[1:26:21] light can't escape it. If you take the
[1:26:24] discoveries of science and you use your
[1:26:26] imagination, they're like, it's like
[1:26:28] insane. We're uncovering what our
[1:26:31] ancestors were up to. We're uncovering
[1:26:33] the origins of life, how life might have
[1:26:36] been invented in in in the soups of
[1:26:38] oceans 4 billion years ago.
[1:26:42] It's it's absolutely mindblowing. But
[1:26:44] people aren't thinking like that.
[1:26:46] They're not going taking that next step
[1:26:48] and having a sense of awe about it.
[1:26:50] They're just facts.
[1:26:51] >> Yeah. You know how
[1:26:53] it would be obvious to maybe draw an
[1:26:55] analogy between
[1:26:57] scientism, rationalism, and a kind of
[1:27:01] sterility.
[1:27:02] >> Yeah. Loss of the magic of life. And I
[1:27:05] think that's the sort of link that I'm
[1:27:08] I'm sort of trying to the thread that
[1:27:10] I'm trying to pull on because yeah, the
[1:27:13] color I think for many people maybe has
[1:27:15] been drained out of life and when they
[1:27:16] were to point at it maybe if the reality
[1:27:18] is yeah dude you're distracted all the
[1:27:20] time and you scroll easily forgettable
[1:27:23] largely gray homogeneous slop on a daily
[1:27:27] basis. And well put
[1:27:28] >> your body is made out of everything you
[1:27:30] put in your mouth and your brain is made
[1:27:32] out of everything that you put into your
[1:27:33] eyes and ears. And if you think about
[1:27:35] what that consumption pattern is like,
[1:27:36] you are basically feeding yourself fast
[1:27:38] food for your amydala on a daily basis.
[1:27:40] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:27:42] >> There is still, you know, you talk about
[1:27:45] sort of pagan time, pagan religions,
[1:27:49] this sense of so much more wonder, so
[1:27:52] many more unanswered questions, the
[1:27:54] opportunity to use story and narrative
[1:27:57] and personification. It's the gods
[1:27:59] fighting that's made the the the
[1:28:01] lightning. How much easier it must have
[1:28:02] been to have been infused by life.
[1:28:06] Should we all become pagans again? Is
[1:28:08] that the answer? Can we just do that? I
[1:28:10] would love it if we would. I
[1:28:12] >> I'm down. If you want to make a If you
[1:28:13] want to make a pagan a pagan commune
[1:28:15] somewhere, I'll join. I
[1:28:17] >> I would because I I've always felt
[1:28:19] myself to be pagan.
[1:28:21] >> Um I've always uh when I see when I go
[1:28:25] to the British Museum and I see that
[1:28:27] section on Assyria and I see some of
[1:28:29] those massive sculptures of like half
[1:28:31] human, half tiger lions. Whoa. I feel
[1:28:35] like it's expressing something so
[1:28:37] powerful in me. I've always been deeply
[1:28:40] deeply attracted to the designs to the
[1:28:43] things of like the um in the aboriges
[1:28:46] their their little paintings that they
[1:28:48] make of you know the waves inside of
[1:28:50] animals and
[1:28:52] >> it seems more alive. It seems like
[1:28:54] something so powerful and so direct.
[1:28:57] >> I don't Yeah.
[1:28:58] >> What What do you think people get wrong
[1:29:00] when they think about pagan religions?
[1:29:03] Well, I studied this quite deeply and
[1:29:05] and I have to say that um my major in
[1:29:09] college was ancient Greek and so I've
[1:29:11] been studying ancient cultures as part
[1:29:13] of my my my past and part of who I am.
[1:29:17] And so we think of ancient Greece for
[1:29:20] instance, we think of Zeus and Aphrodite
[1:29:23] and Athena and Hera. These kind of
[1:29:25] comical figures in the sky. It's almost
[1:29:27] laughable like cartoons. They're like
[1:29:29] Marvel movies. They're arguing and
[1:29:31] bickering and how human and how silly
[1:29:33] they are. That's our modern projection
[1:29:37] on the past. It has nothing to do with
[1:29:40] the reality of of Greekness and what
[1:29:42] they thought the gods were.
[1:29:45] >> I sort of researched that and the words
[1:29:48] for for gods was like a a flash of
[1:29:51] light. And so the gods were not these
[1:29:55] entities, were not these characters, not
[1:29:57] these human forms. They were forces in
[1:30:00] nature. They were these powers. They was
[1:30:02] waves of energy.
[1:30:04] >> And so when you felt sexually drawn to
[1:30:08] somebody, Aphrodite was like inhabiting
[1:30:12] your body. It was a force inside of you
[1:30:14] that came outside of you.
[1:30:16] >> So in our modern sophisticated world,
[1:30:19] when I fall, when I'm sexually attracted
[1:30:21] to this woman, it's just my hormones are
[1:30:24] acting up, right? You know, it's just
[1:30:25] me, you know, and whatever. But in fact
[1:30:30] what your sense of desire comes from
[1:30:33] something much larger than yourself.
[1:30:35] Right? It comes from how we have to
[1:30:38] reproduce how biology is operating in
[1:30:40] this. It's something transcendent and
[1:30:43] the desire for atoms to to to meet and
[1:30:47] form matter. the uh I had this story in
[1:30:50] there of of parramium in the water and
[1:30:54] this scientist was seeing how the
[1:30:57] parramium had this desire for one to go
[1:30:59] inside the other. That's not how
[1:31:01] parramium reproduce. They reproduce by
[1:31:04] splitting. So it had nothing to do with
[1:31:06] reproduction. It was a desire to be
[1:31:08] combining with other parramium. And he
[1:31:11] was saying that this is a force in
[1:31:13] nature that nature is built around this
[1:31:16] desire for things to be attracted and to
[1:31:18] kind of incorporate the other thing.
[1:31:21] >> And so
[1:31:22] so the sexual desire is actually you are
[1:31:25] being possessed by something greater
[1:31:27] than yourself. It could be Aphrodite.
[1:31:30] That might be the name you put to it
[1:31:31] 3,000 years ago. I still might even
[1:31:33] think that it could be Aphrodite. But
[1:31:36] the gods weren't like these funny
[1:31:38] creatures kind of laughable silly
[1:31:41] things. They were these forces that in
[1:31:43] that in that possessed you. And I
[1:31:47] describe in there one of the oldest
[1:31:49] mysteries, the Elucinian mysteries
[1:31:54] that went on for thousands of years and
[1:31:57] all the greatest thinkers were initiated
[1:32:00] in it and it changed them. They they
[1:32:03] spoke of it was the most incredible
[1:32:04] thing they ever been to. It makes
[1:32:06] Burning Man seem like nothing. Okay.
[1:32:09] Sorry to say.
[1:32:10] >> Um and so
[1:32:13] it it was a way of making you feel that
[1:32:15] you had died and then were reborn just
[1:32:19] like the myth of Pphanie and Deer who's
[1:32:22] who has to go into the underworld her
[1:32:24] daughter
[1:32:25] >> and that's when winter happens then she
[1:32:27] reemerges and that's when spring
[1:32:28] happens. But the sense of feeling your
[1:32:32] your death and being reborn, that's what
[1:32:34] the these gods, that's what the
[1:32:36] religious experience was. If we could go
[1:32:39] back to that, if we could incorporate
[1:32:40] that into our 21st century mentality, it
[1:32:43] would be awakening of human
[1:32:45] consciousness, I would be all for it. I
[1:32:47] would start welling pelts and horns. I'd
[1:32:50] be pagan as anybody cuz [laughter] I'm
[1:32:54] all for the pagan world. Sorry.
[1:32:58] And you and you know what to take it one
[1:33:00] step further.
[1:33:01] >> Yeah.
[1:33:02] >> Christianity which is the probably the
[1:33:05] most powerful religion on the planet
[1:33:06] earth
[1:33:07] >> is a pagan religion. It has roots in
[1:33:10] paganism that are extremely deep and a
[1:33:13] lot of the ideas and a lot of the
[1:33:14] rituals. Dionis was a Greek god who was
[1:33:19] who died and then was reborn. And
[1:33:22] there's so many parallels between the
[1:33:23] myth of Dionis and Jesus Christ. You can
[1:33:26] go on and on and on. The roots of
[1:33:28] Christianity are from paganism. So to
[1:33:30] make this sharp distinction between
[1:33:32] Christianity and paganism is totally
[1:33:34] bogus. There is no distinction.
[1:33:36] >> Paganism is still within our belief
[1:33:38] system today.
[1:33:39] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's one flow.
[1:33:41] >> Yeah.
[1:33:42] >> Yeah. What was that story about the
[1:33:44] Russian explorer and the Siberian tiger?
[1:33:47] >> Yeah. It's one of my favorite stories.
[1:33:50] Um so and they made a great movie out of
[1:33:53] it. Uh the Japanese director Kira
[1:33:55] Kurasawa, I believe in the 80s, did a
[1:33:57] movie. It's called Deers Sua. I highly
[1:34:00] recommend you see it. This Russian
[1:34:03] explorer at the turn of the 20th
[1:34:05] century, his name is Arcenv. He's
[1:34:07] exploring the Siberian tiger, which is
[1:34:10] this vast kind of wasteland
[1:34:13] of snow and and um and you know, it's
[1:34:17] just there's indigenous tribes, etc. And
[1:34:20] he's exploring because they're parts of
[1:34:22] the Tiberian saiga. The Siberian tiger.
[1:34:25] Sorry.
[1:34:27] >> Tiberian saiga.
[1:34:28] >> Got that wrong. I'm getting a little
[1:34:30] punch drunk here. The Siberian tiger
[1:34:32] that had never been seen before. So he's
[1:34:34] sent out there to map it, right? He's a
[1:34:36] scientist, right? Very good scientist, a
[1:34:39] cgrapher.
[1:34:41] So he's out there and he's going through
[1:34:43] this area that's that's very wild that
[1:34:45] no Russian has been before. And he's
[1:34:49] there's this man. They're they're having
[1:34:50] a camp they're sitting by their campfire
[1:34:52] and this indigenous man named Deruzula
[1:34:55] asks if he can sit by the fire with them
[1:34:58] and uh smoke his pipe. And he was a
[1:35:02] trapper, a hunter who's by himself. He
[1:35:06] belongs to this tribe called the gold.
[1:35:09] Um but he's lives mostly on his own and
[1:35:11] and you know occasionally he meets other
[1:35:13] members of his tribe, but he's basically
[1:35:15] a hunter, a trapper.
[1:35:18] And our senive invites him to sit by the
[1:35:19] campfire and they share a meal. And
[1:35:22] slowly he falls under the spell of this
[1:35:24] man and he says, "Will you join us on
[1:35:26] our expedition? We need somebody like
[1:35:28] you." And the man agrees, okay? He'll be
[1:35:31] their guide. He'll show them, you know,
[1:35:33] where to go. And slowly he realizes that
[1:35:36] this man with his pagan beliefs
[1:35:39] is so much more powerful than they are.
[1:35:42] His body, first of all, he's in his 50s
[1:35:44] or 60s. He has 20 times the energy that
[1:35:47] they have. He can do feats that they
[1:35:49] can't even imagine. Right? Because his
[1:35:51] consciousness isn't telling him you
[1:35:53] can't do this, you can't do that. He's
[1:35:55] just open to everything.
[1:35:57] He knows every little detail of the
[1:36:00] forest. He can read like you can read a
[1:36:03] book. He knows by the tracks on the
[1:36:06] ground what animal passed, what kind of
[1:36:08] mood they were in, whether they were in
[1:36:11] heat or not, and whether they were
[1:36:13] hungry. He can read everything by how
[1:36:15] branches are broken. He can see the sky
[1:36:18] and say a storm is coming even though
[1:36:20] it's like two days beforehand. He smells
[1:36:23] the temperature, the weather. He says
[1:36:25] that the the forest breathes and is
[1:36:27] alive and he knows how it breathes and
[1:36:29] he can feel it. One day they encounter a
[1:36:32] tiger.
[1:36:33] They hear the the roaring of the tiger
[1:36:35] and Arcine is terrified. He can't
[1:36:38] believe it. Tiger's going to about to
[1:36:40] pants on them. And a Siberian tiger is,
[1:36:42] believe me, is something you don't want
[1:36:44] to encounter. So he picks up his rifle,
[1:36:46] he's about to shoot it, and and the
[1:36:49] Daru, the indigenous guy, put that away.
[1:36:52] And he walks right up to the tiger and
[1:36:54] he starts talking to it. And he starts
[1:36:56] telling it, he says that the tiger is
[1:36:59] the soul of the jungle. And if you mess
[1:37:01] with the soul of the jungle, you're
[1:37:02] going to pay a price. No, nothing in in
[1:37:04] the forest will ever uh cooperate with
[1:37:07] you. And he goes up and he talks to the
[1:37:08] tiger and he says," which is the name of
[1:37:10] the tiger to his group, "don't be mad.
[1:37:13] We're here just walking around. We're
[1:37:16] not going to bother you. Please be
[1:37:17] okay." The tiger walks away.
[1:37:20] And Arcen is like, "My god, weren't you
[1:37:24] terrified?" He goes, "No, no, never.
[1:37:25] Never. If you if you shot him, I would
[1:37:28] never be your friend. you would have
[1:37:29] violated the Anyway, he comes to realize
[1:37:32] that this man has an intelligence and a
[1:37:35] spirit that humans have lost.
[1:37:38] >> That we once were so close to the
[1:37:40] environment that we could read
[1:37:42] everything that our senses were so
[1:37:45] alive, we could feel the weather, we
[1:37:47] could feel animals, we knew the spirit
[1:37:49] of everything around us. and and ends up
[1:37:52] that that Dar Su is murdered a few years
[1:37:55] later by people who who rob him
[1:37:58] >> and he's so sad that this is a world
[1:38:00] that's disappearing and he speculates if
[1:38:03] only we had kept some of this with our
[1:38:07] scientific spirit cuz he was a
[1:38:08] scientist.
[1:38:10] >> How powerful would be because this man
[1:38:12] taught me everything about the jungle
[1:38:14] about the about the Siberian tiger. So
[1:38:17] that's the story. How much do you think
[1:38:20] of what humans call supernatural
[1:38:22] abilities are actually just natural to
[1:38:24] humans, but we've lost touch with our
[1:38:27] subconscious so much that we don't have
[1:38:28] access to them anymore?
[1:38:30] >> Well, um, we are capable of so much more
[1:38:34] than we think we are. Um, so I I have
[1:38:39] stories in there of of people kind of
[1:38:41] stretching the limits. So, there's a
[1:38:43] story about a mountain climber cuz I'm
[1:38:45] kind of very interested in mountain
[1:38:46] climbers in the sublime. And he climbs
[1:38:49] this mountain in Colorado
[1:38:52] and he gets to the top and he's elated
[1:38:55] and now he has to go back down. He can
[1:38:57] see that a storm is brewing, but he
[1:38:58] decides to go back down the other side
[1:39:00] and find some new uh areas that he
[1:39:03] hadn't climbed before. So, he's
[1:39:04] descending. The storm is coming. It's
[1:39:07] getting a little bit sketchy out there.
[1:39:09] Suddenly, he's on this ledge and he
[1:39:11] falls. And as he's falling, his knee
[1:39:14] hits the rock and he cracks his knee
[1:39:16] open and he lands on a ledge that's like
[1:39:20] like a foot wide. Okay, maybe a foot and
[1:39:22] a half wide. And he lands on his
[1:39:24] krampons. So, he's bleeding. His knee is
[1:39:27] cracked. He's sitting on this tiny
[1:39:29] ledge. He's somehow very lucky that he
[1:39:31] landed there. He fell about 30 ft. The
[1:39:35] storm is coming. He's alone. He's I'm
[1:39:37] I'm about to die. And he starts crying.
[1:39:39] He starts sobbing. [snorts] And then a
[1:39:42] voice inside says, "Try to get to your
[1:39:45] feet. Just try to get to your feet." And
[1:39:47] it's really painful. His, as I said, his
[1:39:49] knee is cracked. He somehow manages to
[1:39:52] get to his feet. Then all of a sudden,
[1:39:54] as he looks, he can see that there is a
[1:39:56] slight way that the ledge can lead to
[1:39:58] another ledge. It's very precarious.
[1:40:01] But then suddenly, he feels this rush of
[1:40:04] energy.
[1:40:05] This like he doesn't know what it is.
[1:40:07] and he starts descending onto these tiny
[1:40:10] ledges, you know, whatever the word is.
[1:40:14] He finally finds his way back down the
[1:40:16] mountain and he's ecstatic. He's like,
[1:40:19] "My god, I was like a mountain goat the
[1:40:22] way I was suddenly able to descend this
[1:40:24] mountain. What happened to me? What were
[1:40:27] these powers that suddenly came to me?"
[1:40:30] Right? I can't make sense of it. And
[1:40:32] then he goes to a hospital and he it
[1:40:34] takes him months to recover and he's
[1:40:36] going,
[1:40:38] "What was that? What was that
[1:40:40] experience? I have to have it again."
[1:40:42] Cuz it was so ecstatic.
[1:40:44] He spends the next 20 years of his life
[1:40:46] trying to have that experience again.
[1:40:48] And he fails and he fails and he fails.
[1:40:50] He climbs Mount Everest. It doesn't
[1:40:52] work. It's just, you know, uh leeches
[1:40:54] are eating at his knees and he's he's
[1:40:57] miserable and and there's, you know,
[1:40:59] storms, etc. He tries long-distance
[1:41:02] chron um long-distance running. He gets
[1:41:05] moments where there's some kind of
[1:41:06] ecstasy, but it's not the same. He reads
[1:41:09] about the neurology of the human brain
[1:41:12] and he goes into indigenous cultures and
[1:41:15] he realizes that shamans back then,
[1:41:18] people who had these initiation rituals
[1:41:21] would put people to the brink of death
[1:41:24] and then bring them back and that they
[1:41:26] would then have these experiences like
[1:41:28] he had. And he decided that they had
[1:41:30] mastered the neuroendocrine system. They
[1:41:33] could control their no their own
[1:41:35] hormones because what happened to him on
[1:41:37] that mountain was his body his hormones
[1:41:40] were creating these dopamines and these
[1:41:42] adrenaline effects that gave him that
[1:41:44] mountain goat power.
[1:41:45] >> Okay.
[1:41:46] >> So anyway, the the the lesson here is he
[1:41:49] finally discovers that he creates this
[1:41:52] his own what he calls a mountain run.
[1:41:55] It's not the word, but he creates these
[1:41:57] runs. He takes a map and he makes a
[1:41:59] circle and he's going to run that
[1:42:02] circle. No matter what comes into his
[1:42:03] path, right, in in these wooded areas,
[1:42:06] even if a mountain or stream, he's got
[1:42:08] to create that circle. And in doing
[1:42:11] this, he comes upon a cliff that he has
[1:42:13] to climb, he gets that experience again.
[1:42:17] Okay? But the point is our bodies have
[1:42:20] these insane powers that we have. A lot
[1:42:22] of it is from our physiology, right?
[1:42:26] from our our own hormone system for how
[1:42:29] things when we're in a sense of danger.
[1:42:32] So if you took any stock broker on Wall
[1:42:36] Street as rigid and tight and
[1:42:38] conservative and limited as anything
[1:42:40] else, as unsublime as any creature you
[1:42:43] can imagine on our planet, and you
[1:42:45] dropped him in the middle of an island
[1:42:47] alone, and he had to survive,
[1:42:50] his senses would start waking up. these
[1:42:53] some of these effects would happen
[1:42:55] >> and he would discover some of these
[1:42:57] quote unquote supernatural powers that
[1:42:59] he possesses because when your senses
[1:43:02] are dead, you're you're not connected to
[1:43:04] the to your own body. You're not
[1:43:06] connected to these immense powers that
[1:43:08] we have, right? And I sensed a little
[1:43:11] bit when I was this close to death and I
[1:43:16] could feel
[1:43:18] I could feel like death inside of me. It
[1:43:21] was like something really powerful and
[1:43:24] really strong, not like anything else.
[1:43:27] And it was like a power that I can't
[1:43:30] even verbalize, but is out there
[1:43:32] somehow. And it's going to happen to
[1:43:33] everyone when they die. You're going to
[1:43:36] feel that. You're going to feel like
[1:43:37] you're connecting to something un
[1:43:40] cosmic, right? And so there's something
[1:43:43] and then when you emerge from that your
[1:43:45] physiology and your brain is slightly
[1:43:47] altered and you don't have supernatural
[1:43:50] powers but the world looks different
[1:43:53] >> and that you know it's not without I'm
[1:43:56] not taking LSD. I'm not taking uh you
[1:43:58] know uh why wosca or whatever you call
[1:44:01] it again. It's just there. It's my my
[1:44:04] own brain. Your brain has these weird
[1:44:06] weird weird powers that you're not even
[1:44:09] accessing because you're not even
[1:44:11] connected to your body anymore. You're
[1:44:13] not connected to your own mortality.
[1:44:15] You're not connected to your senses. I
[1:44:17] have a friend who went to South Africa
[1:44:20] with one of the world's best rhino
[1:44:24] trackers.
[1:44:24] >> Whoa. and
[1:44:26] he was
[1:44:28] out in the planes off the uh van out of
[1:44:32] out of the jeep and he said they'd been
[1:44:35] tracking this animal for ages. I don't
[1:44:36] know whether it was a rhino or not. And
[1:44:39] they'd realized that they were really
[1:44:40] really close to it, but they couldn't
[1:44:41] work out where. They were next to this
[1:44:43] huge big bush and they're looking around
[1:44:45] and then they heard this little
[1:44:48] from the other side of the bush. They
[1:44:50] heard this sound and they realized that
[1:44:52] this animal that they'd been tracking,
[1:44:54] let's say it was a rhino, was 20 ft on
[1:44:56] the other side of a very large shrub.
[1:44:58] >> And he talks about this sort of rush of
[1:45:00] adrenaline. He told me this story and it
[1:45:03] always stuck in my mind. And then I went
[1:45:05] to go and film a documentary series in
[1:45:08] Zambia.
[1:45:10] And the Zambesi River, I didn't realize
[1:45:13] runs between Zambia and Zimbabwe. Like
[1:45:15] it literally
[1:45:16] 5 miles, 4 miles, 3 miles maybe wide.
[1:45:19] You can see there's, hey, there's a
[1:45:20] different country on the other side of
[1:45:21] that thing. And I was taken out to do an
[1:45:24] old school style of safari. This is when
[1:45:28] from the golden era of safaris in sort
[1:45:30] of the '60s before some now are closer
[1:45:33] to sight of a sevenstar hotel experience
[1:45:36] that's in the middle of the Masamara or
[1:45:38] whatever. And this was if you want a
[1:45:40] shower, you need to warn them half an
[1:45:41] hour before so they can go and heat some
[1:45:43] water. It's a bucket that gets run
[1:45:44] through. You sleep under the stars.
[1:45:46] You're in a glorified day.
[1:45:48] >> Is this when was this?
[1:45:49] >> Uh two years ago. Two and a half years
[1:45:50] ago.
[1:45:51] >> Oh, really? Wow. Very recent. Um so I
[1:45:53] mean you get a plane to Addis Ababa. uh
[1:45:56] Adis Sababa in uh Ethiopia and then from
[1:45:58] there you fly in and then from there you
[1:46:00] get a little
[1:46:01] >> wow 10 person plane less where I didn't
[1:46:05] realize this but the fuselage the bit or
[1:46:07] whatever it is the bit that's on the
[1:46:08] wing that I assumed was where the fuel
[1:46:11] went the sort of long bit where the wing
[1:46:13] goes over the top of it no that's where
[1:46:15] your bags go. So you put your luggage
[1:46:17] your luggage in the and I'm looking out
[1:46:18] of the window and I'm like that is half
[1:46:21] open like that latch is half open just
[1:46:23] pairs of pants and trousers and stuff
[1:46:24] flying behind us maybe if that happened.
[1:46:26] It didn't. So we land and we get a jeep
[1:46:28] and then we get on a boat and the boat's
[1:46:29] an hour and a half and they find this
[1:46:31] one bend in the river and this is where
[1:46:33] they'd set up camp and they do it every
[1:46:34] single year and it's not too dissimilar
[1:46:36] to Burning Man that everything that they
[1:46:38] use while they're there is either from
[1:46:40] the local environment or gets taken away
[1:46:43] with them once they're done. So stuff's
[1:46:45] left to decompose and everything else
[1:46:46] just goes with them. And they build it
[1:46:48] and take it down each season. And I was
[1:46:49] there at the final weekend of season or
[1:46:52] the final week of season. It was about
[1:46:53] to start raining afterwards. Anyway, guy
[1:46:56] that's there uh Australian dude was the
[1:46:59] main operator of this. It was his main
[1:47:02] uh uh site that he was looking after and
[1:47:05] he's going to look after you. So
[1:47:07] typically with most safaris, you're in
[1:47:09] the truck and you're looking at the
[1:47:10] animals. And we did a little bit of
[1:47:12] that. I'd done that previously, but the
[1:47:14] reason for this being more um real is
[1:47:18] that you get to go and do it on foot.
[1:47:19] But if you're on foot, you need big man
[1:47:21] with big gun. So, I think it's I think
[1:47:23] it's called an elephant gun and it
[1:47:24] shoots just big slugs.
[1:47:26] >> Uh anyway, so I'm with this and with the
[1:47:28] tracker and and the video guy and
[1:47:30] there's drones floating around cuz
[1:47:31] they're filming it and stuff which
[1:47:33] somewhat
[1:47:33] >> it's a documentary
[1:47:34] >> somewhat detracts from the experience,
[1:47:36] the fact that there's a film crew with
[1:47:37] you, but whatever. Mhm.
[1:47:39] >> And um we see I see a cheetah, lone
[1:47:42] cheetah walking down the trail in front
[1:47:44] of us. That was amazing. Wow.
[1:47:46] >> Um
[1:47:46] >> you weren't afraid. Well, you had the
[1:47:48] elephant.
[1:47:48] >> I've got big man, big gun. And guy that
[1:47:51] said, but I mean it was forever away and
[1:47:52] they're alone, right? And the the
[1:47:54] >> jeep wasn't that far away. Anyway, we're
[1:47:56] getting toward the final day and one of
[1:47:59] the scenes they really wanted to get was
[1:48:01] of us canoeing because one of the things
[1:48:02] that you do as a part of this experience
[1:48:04] is you can go down the tributaries that
[1:48:05] just come off the Zambzi River.
[1:48:07] >> Wow.
[1:48:08] >> In order to get there, you need to be in
[1:48:09] a boat and these boats are a a
[1:48:13] massive engine on the back of an
[1:48:16] upturned bit of tin basically. So, it's
[1:48:19] a very very sparse uh and hippos
[1:48:23] everywhere. The zombies is filled with
[1:48:25] hippos. Filled with them. They're like
[1:48:28] >> like little rocks that sort of move like
[1:48:30] like like playing whack-a-ole but whacka
[1:48:31] hippo. And they're everywhere. Anyway,
[1:48:33] we're going along and I've got this
[1:48:35] thing in my mind. I'm getting up early.
[1:48:36] I have no idea what time it is. My body
[1:48:37] clocks all over the place. We've been
[1:48:38] filming like 12 hours a day most days.
[1:48:41] Sleeping in a tent, hearing the hippos
[1:48:42] and the sounds of the safari world out
[1:48:46] there. As I'm trying to sleep, we're
[1:48:47] going along and this one hippo sort of
[1:48:49] pokes his head up and usually they have
[1:48:52] a little bit of a look and then as we go
[1:48:54] past it takes its head down. It
[1:48:55] misjudged how far away from the boat it
[1:48:57] was and as we went over the top of it,
[1:48:59] usually it's brought its head down, but
[1:49:00] it didn't bring its head down.
[1:49:02] >> You go over the hippos
[1:49:03] >> and we heard like and I was like, "Oh
[1:49:06] god." Well, I mean the boat is probably
[1:49:07] more damaged than the hippo was. But
[1:49:09] anyway, so I'm like, "Okay, there's
[1:49:10] hippos. There's hippos in the water. I'm
[1:49:12] kind of used to that. I I've seen a lot
[1:49:13] of elephants walking around, but the
[1:49:14] elephants are like they seem kind of
[1:49:16] chill. Hippos less chill. Not so keen on
[1:49:18] the hippos. Uh cheetah, he was quite
[1:49:20] nice. We saw lions, but we saw them from
[1:49:22] the jeep. I'm like, "All right, I'm
[1:49:24] feeling, you know, somewhat comfortable
[1:49:25] or whatever." But I had this I had this
[1:49:27] story in in my mind from my friend when
[1:49:28] he told me about the rhino thing. You
[1:49:30] know that you're walking around and
[1:49:32] >> even though this is similar to the
[1:49:35] environment you were in in the past,
[1:49:36] you're kind of at the mercy of the the
[1:49:37] the wildlife. So, we pull up, we get
[1:49:40] into this canoe, and then the drones
[1:49:43] above us, and the drones sort of
[1:49:44] tracking along, and it's me and the guy
[1:49:47] uh that was leading it. And then there
[1:49:49] was the film crew in another canoe just
[1:49:51] behind us. And these tributaries are,
[1:49:53] >> you know, less wide than this, maybe a
[1:49:56] little bit wider than the table, like
[1:49:57] twice the width of this table. Yeah.
[1:49:58] Super super thin. And obviously the
[1:50:00] depth, it can be either this or it could
[1:50:01] be super deep, but for us, it doesn't
[1:50:02] really matter.
[1:50:04] >> Going down this tributary. And at the
[1:50:05] end it kinks really hard to the left and
[1:50:07] then it sort of leads off into the
[1:50:08] distance and that's the way that we're
[1:50:10] going to go. And at the end is just a
[1:50:11] set of eyes and a snout. It's this hippo
[1:50:14] that's poking up toward the very very
[1:50:16] end
[1:50:16] >> and the guide says we're just going to
[1:50:18] dig in here. Just going to hold our oes
[1:50:21] in the ocean in the in the the river and
[1:50:22] we're going to let it stream away and
[1:50:24] he'll he'll leave at some point. Sure
[1:50:26] enough he does. But I'm like where's he
[1:50:27] gone? He's under the water. I'm so I'm
[1:50:29] like okay there's me in this tiny little
[1:50:32] canoe thing with a big bloke. The jeep
[1:50:35] with the big man with the gun is a
[1:50:38] kilometer and a half in that
[1:50:39] direction like because he's gonna pick
[1:50:41] us up from where we've come around. But
[1:50:43] >> the boat, they're no help. They're now
[1:50:45] back on the main Zambzi River. The guys
[1:50:47] with the cameras, they're no help
[1:50:49] either. The drone over the top, all I
[1:50:50] can imagine that's doing is pissing off
[1:50:51] and alerting all of the animals to where
[1:50:53] we are. So I'm like, all right, it's me
[1:50:54] and it's my mate and I'll canoe. That's
[1:50:57] it.
[1:50:58] >> Okay, so we're going to keep going. I'm
[1:50:59] think I'm thinking all about the rowing.
[1:51:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. Just do a little canoeing on
[1:51:03] either side like this. Canoeing.
[1:51:04] >> Yeah. And uh I don't know the difference
[1:51:06] between canoeing. Paddling. Well,
[1:51:08] paddling. Thank you. Yeah, we're not
[1:51:09] doing that.
[1:51:09] >> Okay.
[1:51:10] >> So, facing ahead and there's four
[1:51:12] elephants. One of them's drinking in the
[1:51:14] stream from the stream where we're going
[1:51:16] to go to that's kinkedked around to the
[1:51:17] side. I'm looking at these elephants.
[1:51:19] Yeah. Just sort of marveling. And I
[1:51:21] haven't been on my I haven't had signal
[1:51:22] on my phone for three days. And I'm like
[1:51:24] really in it now. I kind of got used to
[1:51:26] the the sounds of the jungle of the I
[1:51:29] guess
[1:51:30] >> close to the plains.
[1:51:32] We're watching these and then the
[1:51:34] elephants for me were like kind of
[1:51:35] chill, but I knew that they were very
[1:51:37] territorial and very protective of their
[1:51:38] young. And it's a two bigger ones and
[1:51:41] two smaller ones. I'm like, "Right,
[1:51:42] okay. This is interesting."
[1:51:43] >> They walk off and okay, they're they're
[1:51:46] now tracking
[1:51:48] 300 yards on the left and we're going to
[1:51:51] slowly row along and one of the
[1:51:53] elephants, the biggest of the elephants,
[1:51:55] starts to sort of look at us and veer
[1:51:58] toward us ever so slightly. It's just
[1:52:01] sort of looking and veering and looking
[1:52:02] and veering like that. And it's like
[1:52:04] starting to uh bisect where we're going.
[1:52:08] It's looking as if it would come toward
[1:52:09] us. And I'm giving my guy that's in
[1:52:13] front of me a little bit of a nudge. I'm
[1:52:14] like, "Are we okay?" He's like, you
[1:52:16] know, 300 yards,
[1:52:17] >> 250,
[1:52:19] 200,
[1:52:21] 150, 100. I'm like, "Okay, that that is
[1:52:23] really big." And he's like, "That's the
[1:52:24] mom. She's just making sure that we're
[1:52:26] not going to go anywhere near to her
[1:52:27] kids. It's all okay. like everything's
[1:52:29] chill. And I'd learned that when looking
[1:52:32] at elephant body language, like head up,
[1:52:36] ears out is I see you. Stop what you're
[1:52:39] doing. And head down, ears back is
[1:52:42] sports mode. Like this shit's about to
[1:52:45] get real.
[1:52:45] >> Yeah.
[1:52:46] >> So she's now 40 yards, 50 yards away
[1:52:50] from us. I'm like nudging him all the
[1:52:52] time like, "Mate," he's like, "Don't
[1:52:53] worry, mate. Nothing to worry about at
[1:52:55] all." I'm like that is seven tons of
[1:52:59] animal like whatever three tons of
[1:53:01] animal staring at us
[1:53:02] >> and um we've now dug in to stop moving
[1:53:06] so that we're less of a a threat. Yeah.
[1:53:08] So we've dug in but there's
[1:53:11] maybe 4 foot high of bank between us in
[1:53:14] the little stream and the plane. So a
[1:53:16] little bit of a plinth and then 30 yards
[1:53:18] 40 yards and then an elephant. And then
[1:53:20] there's the camera crew that's behind us
[1:53:21] and the drone that's still pissing
[1:53:22] everyone off above us. We've dug in and
[1:53:25] head up, ears out. And I was like,
[1:53:27] "Mate." He's like, "Don't worry, mate.
[1:53:29] Nothing to worry about at all." Like,
[1:53:31] "Fucking like heart rate's through the
[1:53:34] roof, buzzing in my ears, like
[1:53:36] adrenaline skyhigh, and then head down,
[1:53:39] ears back, like starts towards us a
[1:53:41] couple of times, like kicks like this."
[1:53:43] And I was like nudging him. He's like,
[1:53:45] "Nothing to worry about at all. Jesus
[1:53:47] Christ." and then backs up like
[1:53:50] watching us and watching an elephant do
[1:53:52] that sort of reversing maneuver where
[1:53:54] she's still looking at us backing up and
[1:53:56] then puts her head down even further,
[1:53:58] ears back, just sets off full sprint
[1:54:00] towards us. I'm like, [snorts] "Fuck,
[1:54:02] fuck." And he's like,
[1:54:03] "Nothing to worry about." Like starts
[1:54:05] shouting it over the top of everyone.
[1:54:06] The guy guys in the camera crew, they're
[1:54:08] they're shouting and screaming about
[1:54:09] what's going to go on. And she gets 10
[1:54:12] yards away from us, like digs her feet
[1:54:15] in this big cloud of dust. It would have
[1:54:17] been her falling. She wouldn't, there's
[1:54:18] no way she would have jumped. It would
[1:54:19] have just been her like tumbling over
[1:54:21] the top of this 4ft dip into the thing.
[1:54:24] Looks at us and gives one look and like
[1:54:27] >> turns and walks away. And I like turned
[1:54:29] to look at myself and I had the awe in
[1:54:31] my hand like this. Like what am I going
[1:54:34] to do? It's me and this. I'm going to
[1:54:36] bop her on the nose. Like what am I
[1:54:37] going to achieve with this? The reason I
[1:54:39] say this, my friend that had tracked
[1:54:42] that rhino told me that after he'd been
[1:54:44] through that experience, for the next
[1:54:47] hour, 2 hours or so, he felt like he was
[1:54:50] super human.
[1:54:51] >> He said his senses were so sharpened,
[1:54:54] and this is the only other friend I've
[1:54:56] had that's done a similar experience.
[1:54:58] So, that story from him was real
[1:54:59] formative for me. And I was thinking,
[1:55:01] wow, like I wonder if I'm going to
[1:55:03] notice something, this sort of like
[1:55:06] ancestral resonance between the
[1:55:08] environment that my ancestors evolved in
[1:55:11] for so long and this activation of a a a
[1:55:15] seinal moment that brings it all online.
[1:55:17] And sure enough, after heart rates
[1:55:19] calmed down, the guy, sorry, the
[1:55:22] camera guy behind us himself so
[1:55:24] badly that he turned it off. And I was
[1:55:26] like, man, that would have been so epic
[1:55:28] to have captured. The drone wasn't
[1:55:30] looking in the right direction. The
[1:55:31] bloke in the truck didn't see it. Like
[1:55:33] like it was the ultimate mom, watch this
[1:55:35] and mom wasn't looking. Anyway, um for
[1:55:38] the next
[1:55:39] >> hour and a half, 2 hours or so, I could
[1:55:42] it felt like I could hear
[1:55:44] >> everything. I knew the different birds
[1:55:46] from what direction they were coming in,
[1:55:48] how far away they were, the colors were
[1:55:50] sharper, the lines were brighter.
[1:55:52] >> Oh, wow. And uh I was able it felt like
[1:55:54] I was kind of the center of this
[1:55:57] environment and everything was coming
[1:55:58] into me and it was this wonderful blend
[1:56:01] of like real formative experience super
[1:56:04] high velocity adrenaline and uh you know
[1:56:07] a resonant environment that I was
[1:56:09] existing in and it's just that was such
[1:56:11] a formative experience for me to go wow
[1:56:14] >> that's what we were built for
[1:56:16] >> that's what we were built for and all of
[1:56:18] that together is still now like thinking
[1:56:20] about it I can see that elephant and
[1:56:22] doing that. The scariest bit when it was
[1:56:24] when it did this, when it backed up,
[1:56:25] backed up, backed up, backed up, head
[1:56:26] down, ears back, set off, and ran. I was
[1:56:29] like, "Wow."
[1:56:29] >> So cool.
[1:56:30] >> They can run fast.
[1:56:31] >> They can move. They can shift. Yeah. For
[1:56:32] a big girl, she can move.
[1:56:34] >> Wow. That's an incredible story.
[1:56:36] >> Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:56:37] >> Wow.
[1:56:37] >> Yeah. So, that
[1:56:39] >> the opportunity for us to tap into uh
[1:56:42] skills that we don't know that we have,
[1:56:45] you know, that's my it's one of my
[1:56:46] experiences of that being the case.
[1:56:48] >> Did it do you still does it kind of
[1:56:50] change you? Are you still aware of it or
[1:56:51] did it have any longlasting effects on
[1:56:54] you?
[1:56:54] >> Uh,
[1:56:56] downtown Austin or New York is not
[1:56:58] conducive no
[1:56:59] >> to me taking in all of the sounds around
[1:57:01] me. You know, the the the yelling crazy
[1:57:03] person on the street corner and the
[1:57:05] police siren in the far distance.
[1:57:07] >> Um, but it's it's certainly I mean I can
[1:57:09] see and still hear everything from that.
[1:57:13] You know, we talk about
[1:57:14] >> coasting through life and not really
[1:57:16] making memories about the passage of
[1:57:17] time seeming to speed up. passage of
[1:57:19] time slowed down for me.
[1:57:20] >> Yeah.
[1:57:21] >> I can tell you every single different
[1:57:23] memory increment all the way throughout
[1:57:24] that entire morning.
[1:57:26] >> Oh, really?
[1:57:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The
[1:57:27] whole thing was encoded like just tons
[1:57:29] of novelty, tons of intensity. And I can
[1:57:32] Yeah. I can tell you. But that
[1:57:33] particular
[1:57:34] >> You can remember what it felt like, what
[1:57:36] it it smelled like to be in the in the
[1:57:38] little boat. I can remember how shallow
[1:57:40] it was. Couldn't believe that we were
[1:57:41] dug in on this little stream, but a
[1:57:44] hippo was able to hide. just like he's
[1:57:45] so big and so tall and he was able to
[1:57:47] hide underneath.
[1:57:48] >> These don't attack people though, do
[1:57:49] they?
[1:57:50] >> They're the second biggest killer of
[1:57:52] humans in Africa.
[1:57:53] >> What do they do? How do they kill?
[1:57:55] >> Uh biting, plumping, stamping on the
[1:57:58] second I think after mosquitoes. Can you
[1:58:00] have chat GPT this? What are the biggest
[1:58:02] killers animal killers of people uh in
[1:58:04] Africa? And where does the hippo rank?
[1:58:06] So the thing the hippos aren't
[1:58:08] aggressive. Their problem is they get
[1:58:10] scared. And the issue that humans have,
[1:58:13] hippos want to be in the water. In the
[1:58:14] water, they're nice and safe. Humans a
[1:58:17] lot of the time are in between a hippo
[1:58:19] and the water. And if the hippo thinks
[1:58:21] it can't get back to the water, it's
[1:58:22] just going to go straight through you to
[1:58:24] try and get back to safety because it
[1:58:25] doesn't it doesn't feel very uh very
[1:58:27] secure. So yeah, they they're vicious.
[1:58:29] And um Oh, yeah. You Where are we?
[1:58:34] >> Where's the hippo?
[1:58:35] >> The hippo's 10. Hippos number 10. Okay,
[1:58:37] so mosquito, interestingly enough,
[1:58:39] humans come in at number two. Snakes,
[1:58:41] dogs, assassin, bugs, that doesn't
[1:58:43] count. Freshwater snails.
[1:58:46] [laughter]
[1:58:46] Okay, so like hang on, hang on, hang on,
[1:58:48] hang on, hang on. So yeah, like
[1:58:50] mosquito,
[1:58:52] kissing bug, freshwater snail, seats
[1:58:55] flies, like and then okay, crocodiles
[1:58:58] and snakes, humans, I'm not counting
[1:59:00] that. So I'm elephants are second to
[1:59:02] dogs for me. Uh, sorry. Uh uh hippos is
[1:59:05] second to dogs. Aggressive attacks
[1:59:06] especially on boats. Goring. If you
[1:59:09] ignore direct disease transmission and
[1:59:11] count only animals attacking physic
[1:59:13] physically attracting people.
[1:59:14] Crocodiles, hippos, elephants, snakes.
[1:59:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. They're scary. Don't get in
[1:59:18] the way.
[1:59:19] >> I had no idea.
[1:59:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:59:22] >> Hippos kill far more people than sharks.
[1:59:24] >> Despite not being predators, they get
[1:59:26] scared. They're big scaredy boys.
[1:59:28] >> Wow. God. Still to see a hippo must have
[1:59:32] been pretty intense.
[1:59:33] >> To see 50 or 100
[1:59:36] >> Wow.
[1:59:36] >> just out in the middle of this water.
[1:59:39] They're too hot. They don't want to be
[1:59:40] out. They can't cool themselves off very
[1:59:41] well. They get sunburned.
[1:59:43] >> They get sunburned. They're so pink.
[1:59:45] >> That's why they have to be in the water.
[1:59:46] >> They helps to protect them. I think that
[1:59:48] might be part of it. But they still get
[1:59:49] sunburnt in the water as well.
[1:59:50] >> Fascinating.
[1:59:51] >> Uh what was your story? You said the
[1:59:53] >> Well, no, no, it's not a story. Uh this
[1:59:55] is something else. But I you're saying
[1:59:57] about not in New York or Austin, but I
[1:59:59] was in my early 20s. I was living in New
[2:00:02] York and um I was taking the F train
[2:00:06] back home. I lived in Brooklyn at the
[2:00:08] time and I fell asleep and I came to the
[2:00:13] end of the line and there were these
[2:00:16] four gang members surrounding me looking
[2:00:19] at me and one of them had a knife and it
[2:00:22] looked like this something was going to
[2:00:24] happen. And I didn't have much money on
[2:00:26] me. And I woke up and I see these people
[2:00:28] there. They're going to like either kill
[2:00:30] me or rob me. I don't know what's going
[2:00:31] on.
[2:00:33] >> And for some reason, this insane feeling
[2:00:35] of calmness overcame me. I was so calm.
[2:00:40] I I guess maybe because I just woke up
[2:00:42] and I didn't I wasn't nervous or afraid.
[2:00:44] And I spoke to them in a very calm voice
[2:00:46] and I took out my wallet. I said, "Look,
[2:00:48] I'm sorry. I don't have this much
[2:00:49] money." And I gave them over the head
[2:00:51] and they they kind of looked at me and
[2:00:52] laughed and they left. But I'll never
[2:00:54] forget that feeling of insane calmness
[2:00:58] that overcame me, that protected my life
[2:01:00] basically in that moment. It wasn't
[2:01:02] >> a lion, an elephant, a hippo. It was a
[2:01:06] human predator,
[2:01:07] >> you know. I don't know if they were
[2:01:08] going to kill me, but there was a knife
[2:01:09] in the guy's hand and I felt threatened,
[2:01:12] >> but um something changed in in my body
[2:01:15] chemistry that allowed me. And there are
[2:01:17] hormones that actually calm you in face
[2:01:19] of danger that I forget which one it is.
[2:01:22] I think I'm deficient in those at least
[2:01:23] in the face of an elephant. Whatever the
[2:01:25] opposite of those hormones were. I
[2:01:26] didn't get the calming ones. I got the
[2:01:28] try to attack it with an awe ones.
[2:01:31] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[2:01:32] >> But the point is even in the midst of a
[2:01:34] city in face of danger, some things like
[2:01:36] that could could pop into
[2:01:38] >> Yeah.
[2:01:40] Speaking tactically, how do you best
[2:01:43] advise people to access the sublime in
[2:01:46] their daily life more readily? like
[2:01:48] what's a what's a str a strategic way
[2:01:51] that people can do this?
[2:01:53] >> Well, it's um
[2:01:56] I mean obviously reading my book is
[2:01:58] going to play a big role in this.
[2:01:59] >> It's the number one that's before
[2:02:01] anything else.
[2:02:02] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[2:02:03] >> Because I'm going to the book is is um
[2:02:06] organized to be very practical. So it
[2:02:08] has stories. It has things that are kind
[2:02:10] of make you feel wow that's weird.
[2:02:12] That's I never thought of that before.
[2:02:14] But then I have exercises in each
[2:02:16] chapter about how to uh incorporate this
[2:02:18] into your daily existence.
[2:02:20] >> And then I have meditations that are a
[2:02:22] little bit weirder about how you can
[2:02:24] kind of make a sort of poetic way of
[2:02:26] accessing this.
[2:02:28] >> Um and so for instance um you know it's
[2:02:32] easy for people to talk about thinking
[2:02:34] about your mortality and your death
[2:02:36] right. It's a kind of exercise that
[2:02:38] philosophers go through the stoics etc.
[2:02:42] But I always felt like it's kind of weak
[2:02:43] because you can't think about death.
[2:02:45] It's something beyond thinking. So I
[2:02:47] have an exercise where I literally take
[2:02:50] you through what it will feel like when
[2:02:52] you're dying. Based on my research and
[2:02:55] based on my own experience and I have
[2:02:57] you lie down and I have you feeling like
[2:02:59] the world is going distant away from
[2:03:01] you, that your body is sinking into the
[2:03:03] ground, that your skull is getting
[2:03:04] heavier, it's sinking in, that your
[2:03:06] bones are dissolving, that everything is
[2:03:09] kind of moving away from you. that maybe
[2:03:11] your mind is separating from your body
[2:03:13] at some point and then to feel that
[2:03:16] sensation and to make it as visceral as
[2:03:18] possible and then to take that feeling
[2:03:22] and then go outside and walk in the
[2:03:24] world and tell yourself this is what I I
[2:03:27] I I died and this is what the world
[2:03:30] looks like after I've died, right? And
[2:03:32] how different the world looks like after
[2:03:34] you've been through that experience. If
[2:03:36] you take it seriously enough and you go
[2:03:38] through it, then you will be able to
[2:03:40] have that kind of strange moment of how
[2:03:42] different things look like when you
[2:03:44] sense that you won't be there anymore
[2:03:46] and how everything has an intensity that
[2:03:48] it didn't have beforehand.
[2:03:50] >> So the book is very practical
[2:03:53] but the main thing is as in everything
[2:03:57] in life you have to feel the desire for
[2:04:00] it. So, if your desire, if your
[2:04:04] priorities in life are just making
[2:04:07] money, getting by, doing your career,
[2:04:10] >> you're going to read my book and and it
[2:04:12] won't really have any longlasting
[2:04:14] effect. But I'm trying to hit you over
[2:04:16] the head. I'm trying to really make it
[2:04:18] clear to you
[2:04:19] >> that this is something that is going to
[2:04:21] have a very powerful impact on your
[2:04:23] experience of life. And I want you to
[2:04:25] take all of your emptiness,
[2:04:28] all of your restlessness, all your
[2:04:30] feelings like you're missing something
[2:04:31] in life, and I want you to bring them up
[2:04:33] like you're vomiting them, and that
[2:04:35] you're feeling them coming up from the
[2:04:36] bottom of your and into your throat. And
[2:04:39] you sense how what you what you're
[2:04:42] actually missing in life, and you're not
[2:04:43] diluting it in any way. And I want you
[2:04:46] to feel the kind of ugliness
[2:04:50] >> that exists in the world with the social
[2:04:52] media, the pettiness, the polarization,
[2:04:55] and you want something else.
[2:04:58] >> You have to have a desire for something
[2:04:59] else. Otherwise, this won't mean
[2:05:01] anything to you, right? Because we're
[2:05:03] emotional creatures. We're not. We think
[2:05:05] we're rational and cognition is
[2:05:07] everything. But really, it's emotions
[2:05:09] that that determine that that are the
[2:05:11] most powerful thing. Just like when you
[2:05:13] had the experience with the elephant, it
[2:05:16] wasn't your mind suddenly coming into
[2:05:18] place. Oh, I've got to do this, that,
[2:05:19] and the other. It was this powerful
[2:05:21] feeling that affected your emotions,
[2:05:23] right? You have to feel want to feel the
[2:05:26] sublime before anything else. You want
[2:05:29] to have to get rid of all of your
[2:05:30] baggage and just have like kind of
[2:05:33] >> I hate to use the word, but like a
[2:05:35] mental enema [laughter]
[2:05:37] >> and just like get rid of all this other
[2:05:39] stuff. If you don't have that desire, if
[2:05:42] you think your life is fine, the sublime
[2:05:45] won't have any appeal to you. But I'm
[2:05:47] trying to make it hit you over the head
[2:05:49] with the idea that there's something
[2:05:51] deeply deeply missing. And your life
[2:05:53] will have an intensity.
[2:05:55] You will be experiencing things on a
[2:05:57] different level if you let this in. Once
[2:06:00] you have that, you've gone to that level
[2:06:02] where you say, you've had your come to
[2:06:04] Jesus moment. You go, "Yes, I need this
[2:06:06] in my life. Yes, it's important to me."
[2:06:08] Then the things that I try and sneak
[2:06:11] into your brain will have the effect
[2:06:13] because I'm I'm always trying to like
[2:06:16] instill a little bit of a poison into
[2:06:18] you and make you look at the world
[2:06:19] differently.
[2:06:20] >> But you have to have the desire and you
[2:06:22] have to realize that you're restless and
[2:06:25] you're bored for a reason. You're not
[2:06:27] getting something. And this world is
[2:06:31] making you passive. It's making you
[2:06:33] dependent on algorithms. It's making you
[2:06:36] dependent on food. It's making you
[2:06:38] dependent on what other things people
[2:06:39] are doing for you. The sublime is where
[2:06:42] you finally become active with your own
[2:06:44] experience. You take it over. You're the
[2:06:45] curator of your own experience. Not
[2:06:48] meta, not Google, not chat GBT, but you
[2:06:52] are now the agent of your own
[2:06:53] experience. You're going to create
[2:06:55] curate your own experience. And this
[2:06:58] book is going to help lead you there.
[2:06:59] And so just feel that need to get
[2:07:03] outside of the kind of bubble and the
[2:07:05] emptiness that you're experiencing your
[2:07:07] daily life. How to feel alive again I
[2:07:10] think is
[2:07:12] a search term that more people would put
[2:07:15] into Google or chat GPT if they realized
[2:07:18] how badly they needed it.
[2:07:19] >> Yeah. There's this sense that yeah,
[2:07:21] life's amplitude's just been flattened
[2:07:23] for some reason. The colors been sapped
[2:07:25] out of things. They're a little grayer.
[2:07:27] I'm not as deeply connected. I don't
[2:07:28] feel the highs quite so much. And even
[2:07:30] the lows, they don't have this sort of
[2:07:33] romantic, majestic,
[2:07:35] large quality to them. They're more sort
[2:07:37] of dow and sapping and sort of low and
[2:07:40] sluggish. [laughter]
[2:07:41] >> Yeah.
[2:07:42] >> Yeah. Um you know so for instance to
[2:07:45] take an example um I have I talk about
[2:07:48] childhood experience and uh the writer
[2:07:52] Russian writer Nabokov and how he tried
[2:07:53] to recreate his childhood as an adult
[2:07:56] and he remembers that when he was on a
[2:07:58] train as a child he felt the speed of
[2:08:01] the train in his body and the speed was
[2:08:03] in intoxicating
[2:08:05] >> and so you know I fly an airplane here
[2:08:07] to Austin and now we fly and we we're
[2:08:11] not even aware of flying We don't even
[2:08:12] feel, we don't understand what it is.
[2:08:15] The the shades are drawn and we're on
[2:08:17] our computers.
[2:08:18] >> But the movement of the plane is an
[2:08:19] inconvenience to what I want to do while
[2:08:21] I'm on the plane.
[2:08:22] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[2:08:23] >> Yeah.
[2:08:23] >> But when you were a kid, you open that
[2:08:24] up and you look out, wa the Grand
[2:08:27] Canyon. Wow. These mountains. I'm
[2:08:29] flying. You're literally flying. Do you
[2:08:31] know what that would have felt like 200
[2:08:33] years ago? You're literally in the air.
[2:08:35] It's like magic.
[2:08:37] >> And you can like Nab, you can feel that
[2:08:39] sense of speed and power inside your How
[2:08:42] to rediscover a sense of wonder again.
[2:08:44] >> Yeah. And these are simple things. It's
[2:08:46] you're flying, you're in a it won't be
[2:08:48] in your car really, but or a train or
[2:08:50] climbing a mountain. How you can climb a
[2:08:53] mountain with a different set of
[2:08:55] priorities than how you normally do. And
[2:08:56] I take you through that in many numerous
[2:08:58] exercises.
[2:09:00] >> What do you think
[2:09:02] people will not pay as much attention to
[2:09:06] in the book as they should do? What is
[2:09:10] the most effective but uh initially
[2:09:14] unsexy insight or strategy that you
[2:09:17] think people might gloss over but
[2:09:19] actually you you think they should pay
[2:09:20] more attention to? It's a good question.
[2:09:24] Um
[2:09:26] [sighs and gasps] well
[2:09:28] so a lot of the book uh I'm kind of
[2:09:31] criticizing
[2:09:33] as directly as I can uh the modern
[2:09:37] technological world that is flattening
[2:09:39] your experience
[2:09:40] and you're going to be kind of rebelling
[2:09:43] against them. You're going to be going,
[2:09:44] "God, Robert, you're so old-fashioned.
[2:09:46] What's your problem?" Yeah. Get with it,
[2:09:48] you know?
[2:09:48] >> Yeah. Get on TikTok.
[2:09:50] >> Huh?
[2:09:50] >> Get on TikTok. Yeah.
[2:09:51] >> Yeah. Um, and they're going to be a
[2:09:54] little bit annoyed with that. And you
[2:09:56] know, why can't I just incorporate
[2:09:58] social media? Isn't social media
[2:10:00] sublime? Can't I incorporate that into
[2:10:01] my life? Why are you so critical of
[2:10:03] these things?
[2:10:04] >> I don't want you to stop all the
[2:10:08] technology in your life. That's not
[2:10:10] possible. And I'd be a hypocrite to say
[2:10:11] I don't I, you know, use chat GBT
[2:10:14] sometimes to look up certain things. But
[2:10:17] I want you to be aware of how it's it's
[2:10:21] deadening you, how it's having a
[2:10:22] negative effect on your experience of
[2:10:24] life. You don't have to get rid of it.
[2:10:27] We are we think too much in black and
[2:10:28] white terms. It has to be either this or
[2:10:30] the other. You can still use the
[2:10:32] internet. You can still use AI if you
[2:10:35] have to. You can still be a modern
[2:10:37] person doing your modern things, but you
[2:10:40] can exist also at the same time in this
[2:10:42] other realm. You can explore it and you
[2:10:44] can see.
[2:10:46] So,
[2:10:48] I was thinking about myself the other
[2:10:50] day. I was meditating
[2:10:52] and I was realizing that um I'm kind of
[2:10:57] programmed. My ideas are kind of
[2:10:59] programmed and I'm
[2:11:02] following Instagram and it's kind of
[2:11:04] having an effect on me.
[2:11:06] >> I could see the effect it has on me.
[2:11:08] >> What is that effect?
[2:11:09] >> Well, I watch one cat video because I
[2:11:12] have a cat. Wow, this is amazing. It's
[2:11:15] incredible. I happen to love animals.
[2:11:17] They have these videos of this man who
[2:11:20] has a tiger and he's like wrestling with
[2:11:22] the tiger and yet they're kind of
[2:11:23] >> You've already upgraded from cat to very
[2:11:25] big cat.
[2:11:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
[2:11:27] >> And like wow, you know, and and I'm
[2:11:30] thinking
[2:11:32] it's not it's an emotional thing that
[2:11:34] it's playing on. that's playing on, you
[2:11:37] know, sort of raw basic emotions of not
[2:11:40] just fascination, but just kind of
[2:11:41] curiosity or just sort of images. And
[2:11:46] I'm weak. I'm car I'm falling into this
[2:11:49] trap.
[2:11:50] >> It's part of me. I can feel I can sense
[2:11:53] the intoxication, the addiction, and why
[2:11:55] it works.
[2:11:56] >> And it worked on me.
[2:11:58] >> And being able to look at myself and see
[2:12:01] that it was happening to me, that I was
[2:12:03] falling into these traps. now allows me
[2:12:05] to kind of step back and and and and
[2:12:08] have some distance from it and control
[2:12:10] it and not fall into that and stop
[2:12:12] watching these videos. So, you're
[2:12:15] probably going to be a little bit
[2:12:17] repulsed by how I look at mo the modern
[2:12:21] world and you're going to think I I
[2:12:23] can't live like that. I'm not telling
[2:12:25] you to change your life. I'm telling you
[2:12:27] to expand your life, to expand your
[2:12:29] mind, and get outside of these little
[2:12:32] bubbles that you exist in. So much of
[2:12:34] what people are trying to achieve is
[2:12:37] using
[2:12:39] the modernly
[2:12:42] socially accepted and rewarded modes of
[2:12:44] reward.
[2:12:48] accomplishment,
[2:12:49] status, respect, money, commercial
[2:12:53] opportunity, access, materialism in an
[2:12:55] attempt to feel the way that you're
[2:12:58] trying to give them a more direct source
[2:13:00] of access to like the the wonder that
[2:13:03] you feel when you finally sell the
[2:13:05] business for a billion dollars or
[2:13:06] something like might be more easily
[2:13:09] accessible. Might be more easily
[2:13:11] accessible by going for a long hike up a
[2:13:14] very difficult mountain without your
[2:13:16] phone. Yeah,
[2:13:17] >> it might it might be and
[2:13:21] if you were to look at the amount of
[2:13:22] time that at least in the modern world
[2:13:25] people have aortioned their efforts out
[2:13:27] to tens of thousands of hours trying to
[2:13:30] build the business for this one moment.
[2:13:32] Like have you given the mountain a
[2:13:33] crack? That might be that might be one
[2:13:36] way. So there's this recent um essay I
[2:13:38] read by Adam Mastriani who's
[2:13:40] wonderful. He runs experimental history
[2:13:42] on on Substack and he says incentives
[2:13:45] are for losers is the title of this new
[2:13:47] piece and what he's saying is uses this
[2:13:51] analogy of when he used to play baseball
[2:13:54] as a kid and the posh kids would have
[2:13:57] their own helmet and their own kit and
[2:13:59] it would be really shiny and really nice
[2:14:01] but if like him you didn't have your own
[2:14:03] helmet you'd be given one of the recck
[2:14:05] room helmets and it would be sweaty and
[2:14:07] smell like it was worn by 10,000 10 year
[2:14:09] olds before you because it had
[2:14:11] and it would put it on and it probably
[2:14:12] would disintegrate if it got hit by the
[2:14:14] ball or whatever. And he uses this
[2:14:16] analogy. He says if you don't arrive
[2:14:19] into the world with your own set of
[2:14:20] values, you are forced to put on
[2:14:22] somebody else's, you're forced to put on
[2:14:24] everyone else's in that same kind of a
[2:14:25] way. The reason he says incentives are
[2:14:27] for losers is that a and this is like
[2:14:31] kind of I still don't know how I feel
[2:14:33] about this, but I'll put it to you. His
[2:14:35] position is standing at the bottom of a
[2:14:36] ladder or a number of ladders like
[2:14:39] status, respect, acclaim, money, and
[2:14:42] looking at the top, you assume that the
[2:14:43] people at the top got there by choice,
[2:14:46] not by necessity or blind uh faith that
[2:14:49] this is the thing that's going to fix
[2:14:50] it. But as you begin to kind of ascend
[2:14:52] it, you realize that these people are,
[2:14:54] as he says, spiritually chinless. says a
[2:14:57] lot of the people that have won the
[2:14:58] games that are widely accepted to be
[2:15:00] played have played the games that are
[2:15:02] widely accepted because they didn't
[2:15:04] arrive with their own helmet. They just
[2:15:05] put on the helmet that everybody else
[2:15:07] was wearing. So, he's quite critical.
[2:15:10] He's not saying you can't try and
[2:15:12] achieve mastery in something or success
[2:15:14] and a claim and money, but that many of
[2:15:17] the people who do decide to make that
[2:15:19] their entire life's pursuit didn't
[2:15:21] choose to do it. That's his sort of
[2:15:22] that's his theory. And it makes me feel
[2:15:25] that almost like anarchistic middle
[2:15:28] finger rebellion thing gives me the same
[2:15:31] kind of sense as when you're speaking
[2:15:32] about your new book which is hey there's
[2:15:36] something deeper out there and it's not
[2:15:38] for most people that is a very kind of
[2:15:42] I'm sure large meaningfully large for
[2:15:44] selling books but like minority cohort
[2:15:47] of people that are like yeah I actually
[2:15:50] want to do this myself. if I'm pissed
[2:15:51] off enough at the fact that life feels
[2:15:53] flat and empty and gray that I'm going
[2:15:54] to go and decide to pursue this thing.
[2:15:56] And it's the same with with Adam's
[2:15:59] insight around incentives. Most of the
[2:16:01] incentives are kind of puppeting you.
[2:16:04] They're not taking you towards something
[2:16:05] that you want. They're hijacking a
[2:16:07] reward system that you're not aware of.
[2:16:10] And uh yeah, I think people getting
[2:16:12] pissed off at the fact that their life
[2:16:13] isn't as colorful as they would like it
[2:16:17] to be is a good first step. Well, you
[2:16:18] know, uh, I wrote a book on on human
[2:16:20] nature, laws of human nature. It's about
[2:16:23] 560 pages, kind of dense, no imagery.
[2:16:26] It's kind of first glance, it looks
[2:16:28] incredibly intimidating. And the point
[2:16:31] of the book is that you're an awful
[2:16:33] person. You've got these 18 dark
[2:16:35] qualities and you're not aware of. You
[2:16:38] are a narcissist. You are irrational.
[2:16:40] You have a dark side. You think in short
[2:16:42] term, you have tendencies to feel envy
[2:16:45] and grandiose, etc.
[2:16:47] Who's going to want to read that book?
[2:16:50] >> That book has sold uh one and a half
[2:16:51] million copies so far and it hasn't been
[2:16:54] out that long.
[2:16:56] >> So, I think people are hungrier than we
[2:16:59] imagine for these kind of things because
[2:17:01] we're being spoonfed the same crap over
[2:17:03] and over and over again. I see so many
[2:17:06] self-help books out there that it's just
[2:17:09] >> that they're not going to change your
[2:17:10] life. They're just falling into the same
[2:17:12] grooves on the record that there's
[2:17:14] nothing new or different or surprising
[2:17:16] anymore in so many of aspects of our
[2:17:19] culture. Our films kind of look the
[2:17:21] same. Everything kind of feels the same.
[2:17:24] >> I'm putting something out there that
[2:17:26] shouldn't feel the same, right?
[2:17:29] >> And maybe it'll surprise you and maybe
[2:17:31] it'll shock you because I tell you in
[2:17:33] the preface that the sublime is a shock.
[2:17:37] And there there's no shock, there is no
[2:17:40] sublime, right? You're awakening to
[2:17:42] something strange, exciting, weird, and
[2:17:44] even a little bit terrifying, right? And
[2:17:47] so you want that shock. You go and see
[2:17:50] horror movies that other people are
[2:17:53] playing around with your emotions and
[2:17:55] have you and have learned all the tricks
[2:17:58] for getting you a for doing all that,
[2:18:02] >> right?
[2:18:02] >> And this is giving you that kind same
[2:18:04] kind of shock, but it's real. It's your
[2:18:07] own experience. You're your own agent.
[2:18:09] It's not somebody making a film to to
[2:18:12] kind of manipulate your mind, right?
[2:18:14] You're going to get these shocks, these
[2:18:16] surprises.
[2:18:18] Who doesn't want surprise in their life
[2:18:20] where everything is sort of the same?
[2:18:22] >> But you don't have to have surprise by
[2:18:25] necessarily
[2:18:27] going down the Zambesy River, right?
[2:18:30] >> Yeah. I I couldn't I initially intended
[2:18:32] to write a book like that, but I can't
[2:18:34] because I can barely walk out my front
[2:18:36] door.
[2:18:37] >> But sitting in my backyard, I'm seeing
[2:18:40] hummingbirds.
[2:18:42] And I go, "Wow, what a strange creature
[2:18:45] that is, a hummingbird." And I started
[2:18:47] researching them. When I started looking
[2:18:49] into how their physiology
[2:18:51] and how they move and how they hover and
[2:18:54] how they go from flower to flower and
[2:18:56] what the flowers must taste like and
[2:18:58] feel like and what the world how their
[2:19:01] eyes and how the world must look like to
[2:19:03] a hummingbird and how Aztecs thought
[2:19:05] hummingbirds were gods and if a soldier
[2:19:07] died he was reborn as a hummingbird. M
[2:19:10] [snorts]
[2:19:11] >> I could have that experience of a shock
[2:19:13] of like this is in my backyard and how
[2:19:17] wondrous it is and how insane it is and
[2:19:19] how humming there's there's a million
[2:19:21] hummingbirds out there of different
[2:19:22] species you know so
[2:19:24] >> you don't have to go I mean I would love
[2:19:26] to go down the Zambzi River don't get me
[2:19:28] wrong if I could I would but
[2:19:31] >> anyway
[2:19:32] >> Robert Green ladies and gentlemen Robert
[2:19:34] you're great I appreciate you I you were
[2:19:37] >> maybe episode
[2:19:39] 45 or 60 or something on the podcast 7
[2:19:42] years ago and then
[2:19:43] >> I thought I was one of your first.
[2:19:44] >> You were? Well, I mean that was super
[2:19:46] duper early still for me. Or maybe it
[2:19:48] was in the 20s. I can't remember. Can
[2:19:50] you search when what was the first?
[2:19:51] >> Oh, it was before that because we got
[2:19:53] introduced by our friend, our common
[2:19:55] friend, and she was trying to get me on
[2:19:56] your This was like over Skype.
[2:19:58] >> Abby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
[2:20:00] remember. I think it was It might have
[2:20:01] even been early. It might have been in
[2:20:02] the 20s. It was a long time. It was at
[2:20:04] least seven years ago.
[2:20:05] >> It was at the very least seven years
[2:20:06] ago. and I appreciate you and your time
[2:20:09] and your uh preparedness to stare into
[2:20:12] the abyss and have it stare back to you
[2:20:14] as you keep on writing these things.
[2:20:15] >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. Trying to
[2:20:17] survive. Um, where should people go to
[2:20:18] keep up to date with whatever it is that
[2:20:20] you've got going on?
[2:20:21] >> Um, well, uh, I have a website. It's
[2:20:23] kind of one I've had for God knows how
[2:20:26] long. It's called power
[2:20:27] seductionandwar.com.
[2:20:29] The and spell it. powersandwar.com.
[2:20:33] There you'll find links to Instagram,
[2:20:35] Tik Tok, all the things I tell you not
[2:20:37] to pay attention to, I'm here guiding
[2:20:39] you to. And my YouTube channel and all
[2:20:41] that stuff. And then the book will be
[2:20:44] out. I don't know when you're going to
[2:20:45] post this, but the book will be out, I
[2:20:47] believe, November 10th.
[2:20:48] >> Amazing.
[2:20:49] >> So, look for it then.
[2:20:50] >> You're the best. Appreciate you, Robert.
[2:20:52] Until next time,
[2:20:52] >> Chris. Thank you so much. Can't wait.
[2:20:54] >> All right. Goodbye, maybe Dude. Yes.
[2:20:57] >> A quick note. Lots of people tell us
[2:20:59] that YouTube unsubscribes them from the
[2:21:01] channel even though they already pressed
[2:21:02] it. So just check down there and see if
[2:21:05] the subscribe button is pressed. You get
[2:21:06] access to episodes before anybody else.
[2:21:08] If you do, supports me and the show
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[2:21:11] guests and it makes me very happy. So
[2:21:13] just go and give it a tap for me. I
[2:21:15] thank you.