Transcript
[0:01] Hey Joe. So, anybody who's seen you
[0:04] coach has noticed that you have this
[0:07] incredible empathy. Like you can really
[0:10] see what's going on for other people.
[0:12] And yet you never seem to get lost in
[0:14] it. It never seems to be too much for
[0:16] you.
[0:17] I think this is one of your superpowers.
[0:19] So, I want to talk to you today about
[0:22] how can people with a high level of
[0:24] empathy make that into a superpower,
[0:27] something that nourishes them, doesn't
[0:29] take them out?
[0:30] >> Yeah. [clears throat] So, really first
[0:31] correction,
[0:33] if Tara was here, she would tell you I
[0:34] absolutely get lost in it sometimes. So,
[0:37] >> [laughter]
[0:37] >> but to me empathy just means my capacity
[0:41] to
[0:43] recognize, understand what the other
[0:45] person is feeling.
[0:46] Even feel, I would argue, feel what the
[0:48] other person is feeling. And so, the
[0:50] mirror mirror neurons
[0:52] in our brain, like that's what they're
[0:53] meant to do. And so, we all have this
[0:55] innate capacity to be empathetic. Maybe
[0:58] not all of us, but there might be
[0:59] neurologically atypical folks. But, in
[1:02] general, most of us have this capacity.
[1:04] And my guess is, though I haven't seen
[1:06] any research on it, it's like any one of
[1:08] our capacities, some people have more of
[1:10] it and some people have less of it by
[1:11] nature. They're just born with more of
[1:13] it, born with less of it. And we can
[1:14] nurture it so that we can have more of
[1:16] it or less of it. And I think a lot of
[1:18] people who have a lot of empathy had
[1:21] some sort of abuse or trauma in their
[1:23] childhood.
[1:24] My dad coming home being super upset, I
[1:27] had to learn very quickly how to assess
[1:29] him when he walked in the door to know
[1:31] how to be safe.
[1:33] And so, I think that's a very common
[1:35] way that empathy happens. But I I'll
[1:38] make a distinction between that and what
[1:39] I would call people who are very
[1:40] sensitive.
[1:41] >> Yeah.
[1:42] >> Or porous. Like there's a way in which
[1:44] I'm sensitive, but I'm really not
[1:46] porous, meaning
[1:47] it's
[1:48] easy for in most areas, it's very easy
[1:51] for me to understand
[1:54] what's mine and what's not mine. That's
[1:56] a
[1:56] relatively easy thing for me to
[1:58] understand, and I don't take on other
[1:59] people's stuff easily. But, I've never
[2:02] been
[2:03] extremely sensitive to
[2:06] other people's emotions. I'm extremely
[2:08] sensitive to sound. I'm very porous when
[2:10] it comes to sound. You
[2:11] you know, Tara will pick restaurants for
[2:13] us where there's not a huge loud noise
[2:15] because I get so overwhelmed. And I feel
[2:18] like that's very that sensitivity, I
[2:20] think for some people is like an
[2:21] emotional sensitivity. They're very
[2:23] sensitive to the
[2:25] the effects of the people around them.
[2:27] And I think that those are those are
[2:28] distinct things that people often
[2:30] confuse. And I And what I notice is
[2:33] folks who are highly sensitive to it and
[2:35] empathetic,
[2:37] they have the roughest time with it.
[2:39] >> Mhm.
[2:40] >> So, and and for me, it's been a little
[2:42] bit easier because I'm not as sensitive
[2:45] to it.
[2:46] And I And the people I feel who have the
[2:48] roughest time are the folks who
[2:52] sensitive, empathetic, and they suffered
[2:55] a lot of abuse.
[2:56] >> Yeah.
[2:57] >> Or even a good a good amount of abuse
[2:59] because all of a sudden, the way
[3:01] somebody else felt was everything. It
[3:04] was the alpha, the omega. It was like
[3:07] life or death.
[3:08] It was everything. The how the mom or
[3:10] the dad or however the abuser or the nun
[3:13] felt. And so, for them, they're so
[3:15] sensitive and they were so empathic and
[3:17] they were getting more empathic as as it
[3:19] went on.
[3:21] So, that they could spot what was going
[3:23] on with the with the abuser.
[3:26] And so, that to me, that's really
[3:29] where those are the folks who seem to
[3:30] have it the toughest.
[3:32] >> I totally agree with that that
[3:34] conclusion. And it's just making me
[3:36] wonder, is there something
[3:38] it So, empathy is not sensitivity and
[3:41] it's not porousness. So, what is it
[3:43] exactly?
[3:44] >> Just the capacity to understand, maybe
[3:48] even feel what the other person is
[3:50] feeling.
[3:50] >> Mhm.
[3:51] >> So, for instance, you know, when Tara
[3:54] and I talk about how empathy works in
[3:56] our systems, I just know what the other
[3:58] person is feeling. It's a knowing.
[4:00] Occasionally,
[4:02] I can feel it in my body. I'll like, oh,
[4:04] I feel
[4:05] some something Oh, there like their
[4:07] belly's tight. I'll feel that same
[4:09] response in my
[4:11] Whereas Tara, it's not really a knowing.
[4:13] It's like she's feeling the whole thing.
[4:15] Like she's she's having the emotional
[4:17] experience that the other person is
[4:18] having.
[4:20] And I don't have that I don't have that
[4:22] sensitivity to it.
[4:23] >> Mhm.
[4:24] >> Uh so, I know it and that's the empathy.
[4:26] It's the sensitivity is like how much
[4:27] you actually take it in and then
[4:30] confuse it for your own often, too.
[4:34] >> Okay, interesting. So, if I'm following
[4:36] you correctly, there's actually
[4:37] something it's like
[4:40] being too sensitive is part of the thing
[4:42] that blows people out or overwhelms
[4:44] people.
[4:45] >> Yeah, I wouldn't call it too sensitive.
[4:47] Like I don't want to put a judgment on
[4:48] it as too much or too little, but the
[4:51] folks who are more sensitive are more
[4:52] likely to be blown out, are more likely
[4:54] need to recover
[4:56] in different ways, need more alone time,
[4:59] get more overwhelmed by being with
[5:02] groups of people in big emotional
[5:04] situations where the emotions aren't
[5:06] clean or
[5:07] >> Right.
[5:07] >> And that's the other thing that I notice
[5:09] is like when somebody's very emotionally
[5:11] attuned, and this is really fascinating
[5:13] to me. When people are very emotionally
[5:15] attuned
[5:17] and they're sensitive and they're
[5:18] empathetic,
[5:20] they often feel the thing that's
[5:22] underneath the thing that the other
[5:24] person is feeling.
[5:25] >> Yeah.
[5:25] >> Which is so strange, right? So, the
[5:28] person presents as angry, but they're
[5:30] really scared. The deeply empathetic and
[5:32] sensitive person is going to be scared.
[5:34] >> Yeah.
[5:35] >> They're going to feel it and they're
[5:36] going to confuse it as theirs.
[5:38] They're going to be like, aha,
[5:40] I'm scared.
[5:42] And if they stop and ask themselves, if
[5:43] they've been in the in the world for a
[5:45] while, like is it you that's scared or
[5:46] is it the other person scared? Sometimes
[5:48] that's all the the only question. And
[5:50] we'll talk about other survival guides
[5:52] for this.
[5:52] >> Right.
[5:53] >> But but you can just notice that that
[5:56] they'll not only be sensitive to the
[5:58] thing that's presenting, they'll often
[5:59] be sensitive to the thing that is not
[6:01] that the quiet thing underneath it all
[6:02] that's not being talked about or not
[6:04] being expressed.
[6:06] >> Great. So, let's dive into that. What
[6:08] can somebody do
[6:11] to start making their empathy, their
[6:14] sensitivity, etc. into something that
[6:16] really works for them?
[6:18] >> So, um the most important step is to
[6:21] stop seeing it as a problem.
[6:24] Right? Um
[6:26] I am super auditorily sensitive.
[6:30] I could totally see that as a problem. I
[6:32] can also deeply understand that that
[6:33] allows me to get clarity on a person's
[6:36] emotional state by the tone of their
[6:37] voice.
[6:38] It also
[6:40] can help me
[6:42] learn better auditorily than most people
[6:44] do, remember stories in a way that most
[6:46] people don't, be more sensitive to
[6:48] music. So, there's a whole bunch of
[6:50] things that are like really beautiful
[6:52] about it, but I also know I have very
[6:55] limited time in a very noisy restaurant
[6:57] before I get overwhelmed.
[6:59] And so So, one of the things is to just
[7:02] not recognize it as something bad, but
[7:04] to recognize it as a feature
[7:06] that has like a whole bunch of positive
[7:08] consequences as well.
[7:10] And something you're born with, and so
[7:11] that's just how it's going to be.
[7:13] I think that's a really critical piece.
[7:15] Then
[7:17] the next thing is to start being able to
[7:20] distinguish what's yours and what's
[7:21] somebody else's.
[7:23] No matter how sensitive you are, if
[7:25] you're empathetic, that's going to be a
[7:26] really important piece to to know what
[7:29] is yours and what's somebody else's.
[7:31] And like we talked about before,
[7:33] it may be something that's presented,
[7:35] and it's maybe something that's not
[7:36] presenting. It could be the anger, or it
[7:39] could be the fear underneath the anger,
[7:40] or it could be the fear,
[7:42] or it could be the anger that's
[7:43] underneath the fear. And so, really
[7:45] starting to ask yourself the question on
[7:47] a regular basis, is this thing that I'm
[7:49] feeling, is it mine or is it somebody
[7:51] else's?
[7:52] Which is such a weird question, and
[7:54] there's no real way to know the answer
[7:55] to it, but yet somehow an answer almost
[7:58] always comes. Oh wait, no, this isn't
[7:59] mine. So, somehow or another, I when I
[8:01] ask that question to people, they almost
[8:03] always have an answer to it.
[8:05] >> Mhm. Mhm.
[8:06] >> Which is weird, but there is kind of a
[8:08] strange is this mine is this not mine
[8:11] question that is incredibly useful to
[8:13] know what's going on. And often times
[8:16] for me, I think about what what was my
[8:19] emotional state walking into the
[8:22] into the situation
[8:24] and what is it now helps me get to see
[8:27] what's mine and what's not mine if I
[8:28] need the intellectual reference point.
[8:31] Oh, right. I was in a really good mood
[8:33] until this thing happened. What's going
[8:36] on?
[8:37] Like oh, who like is this mine is this
[8:39] not mine? What's the thing that
[8:40] triggered me or
[8:41] am I feeling somebody else? And that was
[8:43] a tremendously important piece.
[8:45] >> Yeah, I'm just thinking since we are
[8:47] talking
[8:48] probably to people who are having a high
[8:50] level of sensitivity and maybe even a
[8:52] high level of referencing outside.
[8:55] Uh it seems like you could maybe point
[8:57] at ways for people to start
[8:59] differentiating mine not mine.
[9:01] >> Yeah. Yeah, so
[9:04] one is ask yourself and oddly that works
[9:06] often. The other one is to become more
[9:08] self-referential, right? So
[9:12] what is my body feeling right now?
[9:14] >> Mhm.
[9:15] >> Externally is usually easier than
[9:17] internally the internal
[9:19] feeling, but that's a huge piece. If you
[9:21] can keep just 10% of your attention in
[9:23] your own body
[9:25] that often immediately changes when
[9:28] you're lost in empathy.
[9:30] >> Yeah.
[9:30] >> So just like a simple oh, I'm keeping
[9:33] some of my attention in me instead of
[9:36] fully going into you, which
[9:38] for me was incredibly important as a
[9:40] kid, right? Like to be in my father was
[9:43] incredibly important if I was going to
[9:45] survive. To know where he was at, what
[9:47] what the mood was, when the little
[9:50] you know, when the blood alcohol level
[9:52] hit a certain point where I was going to
[9:53] get in trouble
[9:54] and the wince that happened on his face
[9:56] and right like those were incredibly
[9:58] important maneuvers for me to master.
[10:01] And so I wasn't going to keep any of my
[10:03] attention in me. I was going to
[10:06] you know, and [snorts] what's
[10:07] interesting when I think about that
[10:08] those times
[10:10] in retrospect now I'm like, oh my dad
[10:12] was like in deep shame.
[10:14] >> Yeah.
[10:14] >> And I was aware of his anger, but I was
[10:17] feeling his shame.
[10:19] There must be something wrong with me.
[10:22] Was really his.
[10:23] >> Which happens a lot with shame.
[10:24] >> Which happens a lot with shame.
[10:27] And so
[10:28] so it's a really interesting thing where
[10:30] as I was learning to survive by being
[10:33] able to read him.
[10:34] >> Yeah.
[10:35] >> But it wasn't until years later that I
[10:37] started to see oh, the thing that I was
[10:40] feeling
[10:42] I'm bad because my dad is angry actually
[10:45] was at the time me feeling his shame.
[10:49] Later it just became anytime anybody was
[10:51] angry at me I was
[10:53] I was feeling shame because they were
[10:54] just wired together.
[10:56] Right, which is weird too. And that that
[10:58] also happens. All of a sudden what was
[11:00] somebody else's becomes yours if you're
[11:02] around it long enough.
[11:04] >> Oh, yeah. That's one of the liabilities
[11:05] of
[11:06] >> Right.
[11:06] >> high empathy.
[11:07] >> of high empathy.
[11:08] >> Yeah.
[11:08] >> If you can't distinguish what's yours
[11:10] and what's somebody else's.
[11:11] >> Right.
[11:12] >> So any really form of boundary I find is
[11:14] really helpful.
[11:17] Um [snorts]
[11:18] like feeling your energetic boundary,
[11:20] feeling your emotional boundary, feeling
[11:22] what's yours, what isn't yours.
[11:24] >> boundary.
[11:24] >> Physical boundary. Any of those things.
[11:26] Yeah, touching yourself
[11:28] you know, breathing in and feeling the
[11:30] boundary of your lung expansion. Like
[11:32] any interestingly any place where you
[11:34] can make the distinction between you and
[11:35] somebody else in any form is very useful
[11:39] in knowing what's yours and what's not
[11:41] yours. So I think that that's that's one
[11:43] thing. Drawing the boundaries, getting
[11:45] out of
[11:47] >> Absolutely.
[11:48] >> Like just getting out.
[11:49] >> Moving yourself away from the stimulus.
[11:51] >> Super important.
[11:54] And there's there's pluses and minuses
[11:57] there.
[11:58] If you are overwhelmed it's important to
[12:00] do it do it right away. Don't question
[12:02] it. Don't go oh, I need to be better.
[12:04] Like none of that stuff, right? And
[12:08] it is it is also the exact place for
[12:10] your training ground or your dojo,
[12:11] right? And like if you're going to train
[12:14] at something, you need to have that
[12:15] challenge.
[12:17] So, if you separate yourself from it all
[12:19] the time,
[12:20] >> yeah, then you're never going to be
[12:21] training yourself.
[12:23] So, that's a I think important to know,
[12:25] oh, yeah,
[12:26] I can go in here and train at my pace
[12:29] >> Right.
[12:29] >> and come out. And that's a For me, that
[12:31] was a really important thing. You
[12:34] You know, I remember this time with
[12:35] Tara.
[12:36] We were um
[12:38] kids were young. We were both exhausted.
[12:40] Tara's home with the kids. I'm out doing
[12:42] venture capital conferences to find
[12:45] deals.
[12:47] And
[12:48] I would come home and Tara would be
[12:50] like, "You got to be a human, and I've
[12:53] been stuck with the kids, you know?" And
[12:54] I'm like, "I'm exhausted. I just like
[12:56] went to this conference."
[12:58] And we were, you know, both just
[12:59] exhausted trying to figure out who the
[13:01] hell was going to help us out and hoping
[13:02] the other person was. And one day,
[13:05] kids got a little bit older, and Tara
[13:07] could come I was going to this one
[13:08] particular conference that Tara found
[13:10] interesting called Wisdom 2.0. So, Tara
[13:12] came, and she
[13:13] came back from it. 3 days later, she
[13:15] goes, "Oh my god, I'm so exhausted. How
[13:16] did you ever do this?"
[13:18] And
[13:19] and it was like that was such a
[13:21] heavy-duty
[13:22] thing for me to like be around that many
[13:24] people, feel that many people for that
[13:27] much time was just
[13:29] unbelievably challenging for me. Even
[13:31] though
[13:32] I didn't really at that time in my my my
[13:35] evolution, I didn't really care what
[13:36] anybody thought of me. I wasn't trying
[13:38] to like manage people's emotional states
[13:40] around me. I wasn't trying to get people
[13:41] to like me. I wasn't I wasn't at the
[13:43] conference to get anything done, but
[13:45] it's just still so much for me to feel
[13:48] >> Yeah.
[13:48] >> all of that.
[13:50] But, it was my dojo, too. It was like,
[13:52] oh, how do I do this in such a way that
[13:55] that it can work for me? What How do I
[13:56] turn it on and off? How do I
[13:59] reduce the empathy that I'm feeling and
[14:01] increase the empathy. How do I modulate
[14:03] it for for the circumstance? I don't
[14:06] really feel like you can turn it off
[14:07] entirely. You can There's like a
[14:09] repression you can do, which does not
[14:11] serve at all. But, there is a way in
[14:13] which you can be like a little more open
[14:16] or a little more consumed just basically
[14:18] by how much attention you're putting in
[14:19] yourself and how much attention you're
[14:21] putting out.
[14:23] But there's another piece of empathy
[14:24] that I think back to your original
[14:26] question of like what do you deal with
[14:27] it? How do you deal with it? Is there's
[14:29] hooks. Like people having certain
[14:32] emotions around you have certain hooks
[14:34] that catch you. Like the anger, like my
[14:36] dad getting angry at me. Now every time
[14:38] somebody gets angry at me, I feel the
[14:39] shame. I feel like I've done something
[14:41] wrong. And that's actually one of the
[14:43] things that makes your empathy a
[14:45] superpower right now
[14:47] is it teaches you exactly where all your
[14:49] hooks are. You're just like it's so
[14:51] quick to show you
[14:53] oh, when someone is passive-aggressive
[14:55] with you, that's a hook. What do you
[14:56] need to do to unhook that?
[14:59] Right? Oh, when somebody calls you like
[15:03] want
[15:04] a more modern one. If somebody thinks
[15:06] that you can save them
[15:08] because you have some sort of superpower
[15:11] and you're like oh good, I don't want
[15:13] like needy. Get that away from me.
[15:16] Oh, that's a hook.
[15:18] Right? What Where does that come from?
[15:20] >> Right, right, right. It's like showing
[15:21] you where
[15:21] >> That was my That was yeah, it shows you
[15:23] exactly where your stuff is. That needy
[15:25] thing comes from oh, when like my mom
[15:28] got in a very particular needy mood or
[15:30] my dad when he got drunk in this certain
[15:32] way got in a kind of needy mood.
[15:35] What I notice is the more of the hooks
[15:36] that I clear, the less exhausted I was.
[15:39] >> Yeah.
[15:39] >> So So that's kind of what the dojo is to
[15:41] some degree. It's not all of it,
[15:43] especially if you're super sensitive.
[15:45] >> Yeah.
[15:46] >> But it is definitely a large part of it.
[15:48] If it flow If the the emotions that
[15:49] people are having flow right through you
[15:51] and don't get caught, it's a lot less
[15:53] exhausting
[15:54] than if they're getting caught.
[15:56] >> Yeah.
[15:56] >> More exhausting if you can't identify
[15:58] it.
[16:00] Less exhausting if you can't identify
[16:01] what's yours and what's not yours. More
[16:02] exhausting if they get caught, less
[16:04] exhausting if they don't get caught.
[16:06] >> So the implication to some extent is if
[16:08] you're really doing your self-work,
[16:10] clearing out kind of your own um
[16:13] necessities and scars, but
[16:15] like your own dynamics internally so
[16:17] that for instance, if somebody's angry
[16:20] at me, well, I see that their anger has
[16:23] some beauty to it.
[16:25] >> Yeah.
[16:25] >> Great, cuz like I've really come into
[16:27] contact with my own anger, and I love my
[16:29] anger now.
[16:30] >> Right.
[16:30] >> So, that's a lot It's both allowing me
[16:33] to see where I still have self-work to
[16:34] do, and allowing me to clear that stuff
[16:37] up, and maybe allowing me to be more
[16:40] empathetic.
[16:41] Because now I can just see what's really
[16:43] happening for that person.
[16:44] >> So, here's the unfortunate piece is that
[16:46] it does make you more pathetic or more
[16:48] fortunate piece. It's both, but
[16:51] there was this great study on
[16:52] microexpressions where they were looking
[16:53] for like who could identify
[16:55] microexpressions in specific situations,
[16:57] and
[16:58] there was definitely a high correlation
[17:00] with folks who had had some sort of
[17:02] abusive background, but also Buddhist
[17:04] monks.
[17:05] >> Yeah.
[17:05] >> People who've spent a lot of time in
[17:07] their own emotional states. And And
[17:10] that's something I've noticed with
[17:11] everybody in our work is the more you do
[17:13] the work, the more empathetic you
[17:15] become. Doesn't mean the more sensitive
[17:17] you become, and oftentimes when people
[17:19] do the work, their distinction between
[17:22] them and others grows immensely. Their
[17:24] ability to draw boundaries grows
[17:25] immensely. Be able to put attention in
[17:27] themselves and put attention others,
[17:28] that all grows, but also their empathy
[17:31] grows as well.
[17:32] >> Mhm.
[17:33] >> And so, it definitely seems to be a part
[17:34] of it. I don't know anybody who's
[17:37] worked with us for over like 4 years
[17:39] who's not far more empathetic now. And
[17:42] And for all the reasons that you just
[17:43] said.
[17:43] >> Right.
[17:44] >> Yeah.
[17:45] >> And
[17:46] just trying to be honest here, it does
[17:48] seem like it makes some social
[17:50] situations more exhausting.
[17:52] >> Without a doubt.
[17:53] >> Yeah.
[17:54] >> Yeah. So, I would say the more toxic the
[17:56] situation, the more exhausting it is.
[17:58] >> Yeah, that sounds right.
[17:59] >> Yeah. So, that's the blessing of it,
[18:02] which is
[18:03] oh, I just can't be in certain
[18:05] environments
[18:06] where the where
[18:08] there's like a lot of gossip, and
[18:09] there's a lot of lying, and there's a
[18:11] lot of, you know,
[18:13] >> Or like a lot of dissociation.
[18:15] >> Dissociation.
[18:15] >> Yeah.
[18:17] >> Um oddly, I can be with dissociation a
[18:19] lot better than the
[18:20] the other stuff.
[18:22] Um yeah, so for instance, I was a part
[18:24] of an organization where all of this was
[18:25] happening.
[18:27] And the recognition for me was, oh, this
[18:30] is extremely exhausting. It's also
[18:31] something
[18:33] that
[18:34] I can speak to. I can say, oh, here's
[18:36] all the things that need to be fixed or
[18:37] this is how to fix it or this is what's
[18:39] going on. But it was also really clear
[18:42] I would have to go into it to fix it and
[18:44] I wasn't willing to expend that energy.
[18:46] >> Right. There's your superpower again
[18:49] >> Yeah.
[18:49] >> of having
[18:51] couple different things there.
[18:52] Boundaries.
[18:53] >> Yeah.
[18:54] >> And the clarity. And by clarity here, I
[18:56] don't just mean like, oh, mental
[18:57] clarity. I mean like, it's like your
[18:59] system is clear.
[19:01] You're not hooked into thinking you have
[19:03] to fix it for them.
[19:05] >> Correct.
[19:06] >> And then that allows you to have this
[19:07] high level of empathy but not get
[19:10] snagged into some dynamics.
[19:13] >> Yeah. Well, that's the interesting
[19:14] thing, right? So, if you're very
[19:16] sensitive and you're empathetic and
[19:17] somebody was abusive to you,
[19:20] then your job was to fix it.
[19:22] >> Yeah. That's right.
[19:23] >> way you were going to survive
[19:25] was to make dad {slash} mom {slash}
[19:28] teacher whatever happy enough so that
[19:30] they didn't abuse you.
[19:32] What do I have to say, do, when do I
[19:33] hide, where do I go to figure out how to
[19:35] manage this person's
[19:37] you know, abuse. And it is literally the
[19:40] path is from that to learning, oh, I can
[19:44] feel you and see you, but I am now an
[19:46] adult and I that is not the survival
[19:48] skill anymore. Now it is to actually
[19:51] allow you to feel your own pain and to
[19:53] not take it on.
[19:54] >> That.
[19:55] >> Yeah.
[19:56] This is the interesting thing because
[19:58] typically when I see somebody who's very
[20:00] sensitive and very empathetic, they'll
[20:01] say that they'll think that that is
[20:03] mean. I thought that that was mean.
[20:05] >> Right, exactly.
[20:06] >> Yeah. Like, oh, that was mean.
[20:08] >> tendency to be like, no, if I see the
[20:09] pain, I have to I have to go try to do
[20:13] something.
[20:13] >> Exactly. And
[20:15] And then you realize the best thing to
[20:16] do is to let them feel their pain.
[20:18] >> [laughter]
[20:19] >> It's like you're basically like taking
[20:21] the hot frying pan and trying to grab it
[20:24] and pull it out of their hands. It's
[20:25] burning them and they're like, "Fuck
[20:27] you, I'm not letting go." And then
[20:29] you're just both holding this very
[20:30] burning frying pan instead of going,
[20:33] "Oh, wow.
[20:35] Looks like that [ __ ] hurts. Your Is
[20:37] your palm burning?
[20:39] It looks like your palm is burning. How
[20:42] That hot frying pan, that's a bitch."
[20:44] >> Right. That's what effective empathy is
[20:47] like. Like, "Ouch, it really looks like
[20:49] that hurts."
[20:50] >> Yes.
[20:51] >> Without trying to grab the hot frying
[20:53] pan.
[20:53] >> That's right.
[20:54] >> Yeah.
[20:54] >> That's right. Because
[20:56] at some point for me, it wasn't so much
[20:58] a It was just a learning, unfortunately,
[21:01] cuz there probably is a much quicker way
[21:02] to have learned it. But unfortunately,
[21:04] for me, it was just a learning that it
[21:05] doesn't work.
[21:07] >> Yeah.
[21:07] >> That That trying to save somebody
[21:11] doesn't work. What What works, and
[21:13] you'll see this in my coaching a lot.
[21:14] You'll see somebody like, "I'm scared
[21:17] the people judge me." And I'll be like,
[21:19] >> Yeah, they do.
[21:19] >> Yeah, there's 10 people right now
[21:21] judging you as a matter of fact. That
[21:22] guy right over there is probably Look at
[21:24] that face. He's probably judging you.
[21:25] His arms are crossed. He's judging you.
[21:28] You know, like, I want you to feel that
[21:30] thing because that instead of avoiding
[21:32] it, because that's what's actually going
[21:34] to change
[21:35] for And I can't do that if I'm also
[21:38] trying to get rid of
[21:41] the judgment. Right? So, if I'm
[21:42] empathetically involved in their
[21:44] judgment, I can't tell it's mine or
[21:46] theirs. And then I'm also like, "I don't
[21:48] want to feel this [ __ ] cuz I'm really
[21:49] sensitive."
[21:50] Then I'm in the game with them.
[21:52] >> Yeah, or the
[21:54] other thing that you might be doing
[21:55] there is like, if you're empathetically
[21:57] involved in their story that it's going
[21:59] to hurt too much if people judge, such
[22:01] that you're like, "No, no, no, nobody's
[22:03] judging you."
[22:04] >> Right, yeah. Exactly.
[22:06] >> [laughter]
[22:06] >> Yeah.
[22:07] There's another piece to this that I I
[22:09] think is really fascinating to me. There
[22:11] is something about people who are deeply
[22:15] sensitive and deeply empathetic often
[22:17] are prone to more passive-aggression,
[22:19] are prone to more
[22:20] >> Yeah.
[22:21] >> um resentment.
[22:23] >> Yeah. [snorts]
[22:23] >> And it's because they're
[22:27] not following their truth.
[22:30] They're following
[22:32] how do I make people okay, happy,
[22:36] not attack me.
[22:38] >> Right.
[22:38] >> And there's a distinction there. I think
[22:40] there's really important distinction
[22:41] there between It might be my truth to
[22:43] make people happy and that's fine.
[22:46] It may be my truth to tell you all to
[22:48] [ __ ] off and that's fine. But I am I
[22:51] know I'm making a choice here.
[22:54] I know that I I get to and I I am making
[22:57] a choice and I get full responsibility
[22:59] for that choice.
[23:00] And somehow or another, the more that
[23:03] the
[23:05] you're lost in the other person, that
[23:07] empathy and that
[23:08] sensitivity is at full bore
[23:11] and you can't make the distinction, you
[23:13] feel like you're a boat on this ocean.
[23:16] And so it's easy to start blaming the
[23:17] ocean. And so there's this great
[23:19] movement of oh, how
[23:21] do I recognize my own choice?
[23:24] Really starts to clarify clarify the
[23:27] position, like clarify the the over
[23:30] empathy or the toxicity of it and allows
[23:32] you to do things like draw those
[23:34] boundaries or say look, I'm not going to
[23:35] accept that or I'm going to allow you to
[23:36] have your pain cuz I I got a choice. I'm
[23:39] choosing whether I'm going to
[23:41] be in your pain or not be in your pain.
[23:43] >> Right. Do you want the person sitting
[23:45] across from you or in this relationship
[23:47] with you, whatever it might be, to be
[23:49] leaving themselves and trying to solve
[23:52] your problem to their own detriment?
[23:54] >> Right.
[23:55] >> And probably resenting you for it.
[23:57] >> Probably.
[23:58] >> Like yeah, oh, absolutely not. I don't
[24:01] want that. No. Like by all means take
[24:04] care of yourself.
[24:05] >> Right.
[24:05] >> So, I don't want to leave this episode
[24:07] without just talking about
[24:09] empathy as part of our work because
[24:11] obviously empathy is the E in view,
[24:14] which is what we teach in the connection
[24:15] course.
[24:16] >> Yeah.
[24:17] >> And it's really important to what we do
[24:19] and it's it's just it sounds from this
[24:23] episode so far like there's, you know,
[24:26] almost like a a way to to guide it to
[24:30] being something that really works for
[24:32] you. So, what do you have to say about
[24:33] that?
[24:35] >> Yeah, so I mean, in view, we call
[24:37] empathy being with somebody but not
[24:39] being in somebody. So, that's kind of
[24:42] the pithy way to say what we've been
[24:44] saying. However, I think that there's a
[24:47] a deeper thing that you asked at the
[24:48] beginning. It's like it's a superpower.
[24:50] Empathy is in itself a superpower,
[24:53] right? What what does it allow you to
[24:54] do? It allows you to know where the room
[24:56] is. It allows you to deeply connect with
[24:58] people. It allows you to be able to find
[25:02] a deal where everybody wins.
[25:04] It allows you to apologize to people in
[25:07] a way that they can relate to. It allows
[25:08] you to market better. It allows you to
[25:10] sell better. It allows you to love
[25:11] better. It like allows you to nurture
[25:13] better. It allows you to give gifts
[25:14] better. Like, it's an amazing uh
[25:16] characteristic. Yeah. And when I see
[25:19] I've literally had people like deeply on
[25:21] the spectrum
[25:23] talk to me and they're just like, "I
[25:25] want to learn empathy."
[25:27] Because they've been living without it
[25:29] in such a way that they they may be
[25:31] incredibly sensitive.
[25:33] And I would say deeply empathetic on one
[25:35] level but logically not understanding
[25:37] their own empathy.
[25:39] And
[25:40] um
[25:41] some of them different different for
[25:43] different people. But, there's this like
[25:44] beautiful
[25:46] under I mean, it just allows us to see
[25:48] and be seen, right? That's like which is
[25:50] such a pleasure of life as well.
[25:53] And
[25:54] the dilemma is that when empathy stops
[25:58] you from seeing
[26:00] yourself or others clearly because
[26:02] you've lost the distinction because
[26:04] you're in them
[26:06] deeply. And so,
[26:07] it's really the skill set.
[26:10] But, that's why at the very beginning I
[26:12] said, "Oh, the first thing is to not see
[26:14] it as a problem. It's to see it as
[26:16] something like beautiful."
[26:17] >> A different way to say that I think is
[26:19] sort of like, yeah, it might be a thing
[26:21] that feels like it's wounding you,
[26:24] but it is also a gift. And you if you
[26:27] look past the ways that it's wounding
[26:29] you, let's say because you get these
[26:31] skills that you have set. Yeah. You
[26:33] learn your own boundaries, you learn to
[26:35] self-reference, you learn to have
[26:37] whatever boundaries you need to have or
[26:39] like walk away from a situation to find
[26:41] yourself and so on.
[26:42] >> Yeah.
[26:42] >> Then it can become something that
[26:45] nourishes you.
[26:47] >> I would I would Yes, and I would say it
[26:48] like a little bit differently. So, with
[26:50] money for me, uh this is going to be
[26:53] tangential, but we'll get there. For
[26:54] money for me is that
[26:57] my dad chose money over me. At least in
[27:00] my consciousness, that's what he did.
[27:02] There's a lot of evidence to say he
[27:03] didn't, but that's the way I saw it. So,
[27:05] for me, money was bad. Everybody wanted
[27:07] money was bad. Money was bad. People had
[27:10] money was bad. Corporations who made
[27:12] money were bad.
[27:14] Like I was going to be an artist, and I
[27:15] wasn't going to live for money like
[27:17] those other schmuck [ __ ] who were just
[27:19] all greedy, you know, like money was
[27:20] bad.
[27:22] My process in money was to see that oh,
[27:25] money in itself is
[27:29] they're not good or bad or is this great
[27:30] facilitator. It's like there's
[27:33] there's this
[27:34] beauty to it, and there's this way that
[27:36] money can be a deep expression of your
[27:38] love. Money can be a deep expression of
[27:40] your care. It can be a deep expression
[27:42] of your mission. To me, empathy is very
[27:45] much like that. We've mistaken
[27:48] if you're overwhelmed by your empathy,
[27:50] it's become the oppressor
[27:53] that helped you create that empathy,
[27:55] right? It's It's like you've mistaken
[27:56] the empathy for
[27:58] the rageaholic or the abuser. And can
[28:02] you separate those two things and say,
[28:04] "Oh, wait. This This empathy in itself
[28:06] is not a bad thing.
[28:08] >> Yeah.
[28:09] >> It's just that I was taught to use it in
[28:12] this way that made me lose myself."
[28:14] >> Right.
[28:15] >> And now I'm going to
[28:17] use it to to help me find myself. And
[28:20] that's the coolest thing about empathy
[28:21] is like in the long journey of it,
[28:25] my empathy only makes it more and more
[28:28] clear who I am.
[28:31] And there's And so, one of the things
[28:33] that we'll do in some sessions is we'll
[28:36] talk about empathy for others and then
[28:38] we'll talk about empathy for yourself.
[28:40] >> Yeah.
[28:41] >> Which is like an unbelievably beautiful
[28:44] thing. It's like oh can I like
[28:47] be with myself without being lost in
[28:49] myself emotionally? Can I allow my
[28:51] emotions without trying to fix my
[28:52] emotions without getting lost in them?
[28:54] And so the skill that I learned
[28:56] externally with others
[28:59] became like
[29:01] one of the greatest gifts for my own
[29:03] self-recognition or self-realization is
[29:06] that deep empathy.
[29:08] And and I noticed that they went right
[29:09] along with each other. The [music] less
[29:11] I was able to the less I was overwhelmed
[29:13] by other people the less I was
[29:14] overwhelmed by myself and vice versa.
[29:16] >> Absolutely.