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Inspiration

Creative Survival: From FarmIsolation to Life Philosophy

Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert
Jul 10, 2019
8 min read
Watch · 6

On a Connecticut Christmas tree farm in the 1970s, with no television, no radio, and no children her age, Elizabeth Gilbert and her older sister Katherine did what isolation demands: they invented. Katherine would read a children's book about cave twins, splice it with a Franklin Delano Roosevelt biography, and suddenly the sisters were living for a week as paleolithic siblings with a dinosaur who had polio. They bound books by hand. They drew author photographs on cardboard. They credited themselves in publications they'd never read. This wasn't play—it was the work of two minds learning that creation is the only escape from boredom, the only antidote to powerlessness, the only way to survive a childhood that their parents, deliberately off-grid and committed to no-frills parenting, had arranged for them. Speaking at London's How To Academy in 2019, Gilbert traced that farm-born ingenuity forward into everything she has become: a storyteller, a seeker, and above all, a woman learning to construct a life worth living—not by denying its dangers but by insisting on its pleasures, its truths, and its room for becoming whatever you actually are. That opening grounds the entire talk: creativity didn't arrive as a calling for Gilbert; it arrived as necessity. The farm is not nostalgic Americana in her telling. It's a crucible. And understanding that distinction—between creativity as luxury and creativity as survival—unlocks everything she has to say about living fully, loving authentically, and writing the books that have moved 15 million readers across 46 languages.

Read · 5 sections

How survival taught her to create

The farm backdrop is essential to Gilbert's adult philosophy, and she returns to it not to romanticize rural childhood but to explain how necessity becomes genius. Her parents were what she calls "libertarian"—unconcerned with entertaining their daughters and committed to the idea that children should make their own joy. This wasn't neglect in her framing; it was a form of permission. Because books were the only activity her parents wouldn't interrupt with chores, reading became sacred. But reading alone wasn't enough. Her sister Katherine transformed reading into world-building. She took narrative raw material and didn't refine it toward sophistication; she expanded it, adding layers, contradictions, and absurd details until the story was rich enough to live inside.

"All we did that is all we did," Gilbert says, returning to this period. "And we we wrote plays and we created books." (6:58–8:08)

They weren't practicing to become authors. They were surviving boredom the only way available. And that creative response—that instinct to take what's given and transform it through addition, not rejection—became the model for how she would approach her entire life later. The principle was simple but radical: don't choose between things; expand to include both. A dinosaur and polio. A 1930s children's book and a presidential biography. The method was accumulative, not reductive. This would become her life's core philosophy.

What is her real job?

What's striking about Gilbert's self-presentation is its unflinching honesty. Introduced as one of the most beloved writers of a generation, a woman whose life has become international mythology through her books, she immediately destabilizes the narrative of who she is and how she works. "My main job honestly like what most of the hours of my day go to is actually just managing my mental health," she tells the audience. Not writing. Not traveling. Not thinking about creativity or love or meaning. Managing the panic that arrives with consciousness every single morning (5:33).

She wakes up each day with what she describes as an exclamation point of anxiety—a reflex so automatic that it precedes thought itself. Everything else—the books, the travels, the public work of being Elizabeth Gilbert, bestselling memoirist—is built on top of the actual, daily, unglamorous work of learning to settle that panic enough to function. This is not incidental to her philosophy. It's central to it. Because the woman telling you to live fully, to embrace pleasure, to stop denying yourself is someone who understands, viscerally, how easy it is to let fear colonize your entire day.

This is why she describes herself not primarily as a writer but as "a storyteller and a seeker." The storyteller part connects to her childhood—the necessity-driven creation that saved her from isolation. The seeker part connects to her adult work—which has been, in large part, a search for answers to the question of how to live when consciousness comes packaged with dread. The two identities aren't separate. They're aspects of the same lifelong project: building structures of meaning and narrative to survive what it means to be awake.

The mythology versus the reality

Fifteen million copies. Four years on the New York Times bestseller list. Forty-six languages. In the years after Eat, Pray, Love reached the world, Time magazine listed her as one of the hundred most influential people on the planet. The success created a mythology—a narrative in which a woman left her marriage, traveled the world, found herself, and returned with a story that would transform how millions think about self-discovery and possibility.

But that mythology obscures the actual architecture of Gilbert's life and work. She didn't write Eat, Pray, Love because she had figured out how to live. She wrote it as a chronicle of not knowing, of seeking, of moving through the world in search of answers that might not exist. The book's resonance comes from its honesty about that uncertainty, not from its provision of solutions. She was documenting the search, not selling the arrival.

Since then, she has produced Big Magic (about the joyful, generous approach to creative work), Committed (about making peace with marriage as an institution), and most recently City of Girls (a novel celebrating pleasure, sexuality, and the refusal to apologize for who you are). Each book is a stage in an ongoing conversation with herself and her readers about how to construct meaning and authenticity in a life that is, by her own formulation, both fleeting and dangerous.

Why does she champion pleasure so fiercely?

The epigraph to City of Girls offers the clearest window into Gilbert's actual philosophy: "Life is both fleeting and dangerous, and there is no point in denying yourself pleasure, or being anything other than what you are." Not either/or. And.

This is the through-line of her thinking, and it connects back directly to what her sister Katherine taught her on that farm. When Katherine took a 1930s children's book and wove in a presidential biography and a detail about a dinosaur with polio, she wasn't creating by subtraction or purification. She was creating by accumulation, by saying: "This and that, not this or that." The story didn't need to be simple to be true. It didn't need to be serious to be meaningful. It didn't need to be realistic to be real.

That principle shapes how Gilbert has lived. She has been both a serious literary author and a sensual, pleasure-seeking woman. Both a devoted seeker in ashrams and a person who has left marriages and countries when they no longer served her. Both a writer who understands the importance of craft and rigor and a person who insists that joy, sexuality, friendship, and adventure are not luxuries to be denied in service to some higher purpose. In the talk, she pushes back against what she calls "the myth"—the idea that there's a correct, narrow way to be an artist or to be a woman or to be a human who is serious about meaning. She insists that the creative work that lasts, the life that sings, comes from a generosity of spirit: from taking what you're given (whether that's grief or love or failure) and expanding it, not through pretense but through honest imagination.

That farm-born reflex—to add rather than subtract, to include rather than choose—becomes not just a creative practice but an ethical stance. It's permission to be multiple things at once. To have anxiety and joy. To have failed a marriage and to believe in marriage. To have lost a farm and to create, relentlessly, as if the world had given you everything.

Where to go from here

For readers drawn to Gilbert's work, the invitation is to trace the origins of her philosophy backward: to understand that what feels like a lifestyle choice or a philosophical stance began as a survival mechanism on an isolated farm. Creativity, in her model, is not something reserved for the talented or the trained. It's what humans do when they're left alone with their minds and given permission—or forced by circumstance—to make something from nothing.

The work, then, becomes recognizing the "farms" in your own life—the situations that feel constraining, boring, or isolating—and asking what you might create there. It means questioning the myths you've inherited about what serious art should look like, what serious living should look like, and whether there's truly a reason to choose between authenticity and joy, depth and pleasure, rigor and play. If you're a creator struggling with anxiety about your work, Gilbert's model suggests: expand, don't restrict. Take what's given and add to it. Build worlds that have room for paradox and contradiction. And recognize that the work that matters most—the work of learning to live with the anxiety that consciousness brings—is happening underneath everything else, quietly, every day. That's not failure. That's the actual job. Everything else, the books and the travel and the public conversation, is built on top of it.

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Transcript

[0:00] [Applause]

[0:08] No

[0:10] [Applause]

[0:16] oh that's brilliant

[0:22] that was great good night thank you

[0:25] hello everyone thank you very much for

[0:28] coming I am delighted to see so many of

[0:31] you here delighted but not in the

[0:33] tiniest bit surprised where else would

[0:35] you want to be what else could you be

[0:37] doing given you've somehow managed to

[0:40] lure here to talk to us tonight I'm

[0:42] thrilled to welcome you all on behalf of

[0:44] the how-to Academy I've seen some posts

[0:46] under comments on social media that

[0:48] suggest that some of you really have

[0:50] come from far and wide so well done for

[0:52] getting your hands on a magic ticket and

[0:55] for making such an inspired decision

[0:57] we're here to talk about the very small

[0:59] matters of life and love if they feel

[1:03] like quite big things to grapple with in

[1:05] just about an hour I don't think we

[1:08] could possibly have a better guide in

[1:10] Elizabeth Gilbert it's very hard to know

[1:12] how to introduce her she's so many

[1:14] things she's so many different things to

[1:16] so many different people I'm sure a

[1:18] number of you have probably decided over

[1:20] the course of the last few years that

[1:21] she's your best friend or closest

[1:24] counselor without actually probably

[1:25] having told her that yet and but I'm

[1:27] gonna let her describe her life how she

[1:30] lives it fully embracing all the ups and

[1:33] downs and I know there have been a

[1:34] number of both over the last few years

[1:36] she'll be able to describe that so much

[1:38] better that I can and suffice to say she

[1:41] is obviously one of the most loved and

[1:42] cherished writers of our generation and

[1:45] I'm gonna put us all into the same

[1:46] generation tonight for argument's sake

[1:49] she's brought us so many wonderful

[1:51] novels and works of nonfiction over the

[1:53] years and one I have an inkling you

[1:55] might have all heard of a certain Eat

[1:57] Pray Love that was obviously came into

[2:00] the world in 2006 occult for Don

[2:03] [Applause]

[2:07] you may already know then that it sold

[2:10] 15 million copies and stayed for four

[2:13] years which is extraordinary on the New

[2:14] York Times bestseller list and that was

[2:16] translated into 46 different languages

[2:18] and like so much of elizabeth's writing

[2:20] I think so many of us really found

[2:22] ourselves amongst those pages and she's

[2:25] fought us brilliant things since we've

[2:26] had big magic which is himself the

[2:35] acclaimed own signature of all things

[2:36] and the book that we're here we're gonna

[2:39] be also talking about tonight is her

[2:41] latest you may have already read it

[2:43] wonderful fun spirited joyous kind of

[2:47] bounding novel which is city of girls

[2:49] and it couldn't be more timely I think

[2:51] we all really need it and the quote on

[2:53] the front which I think encapsulate s'

[2:55] both the theme of the book but also I

[2:58] think the Elizabeth Gilbert philosophy

[3:00] of living is life is both fleeting and

[3:03] dangerous and there is no point in

[3:05] denying yourself pleasure or being

[3:07] anything other than what you are so we

[3:09] say commenting anyway that that's enough

[3:15] from me and I'm gonna be in conversation

[3:17] visitor for about 50 minutes or so and

[3:19] then we will have time for questions

[3:20] there are a lot of you I'm sure that

[3:23] many of you have questions please just

[3:25] try and keep them as concise as possible

[3:27] and then we can get through and as many

[3:30] as possible so thank you again very very

[3:32] much and thank you very thank you hi

[3:34] London how is London for you as a

[3:40] describer of places okay this is um I

[3:44] actually was just talking to somebody

[3:45] today about how guilty I feel in my

[3:47] apologies to anybody in here who will be

[3:50] offended at how much I like London more

[3:52] than Paris and I I just sorry you know I

[3:59] just do there so I always I it's a city

[4:02] I could imagine living in and and I have

[4:05] great friends here and I just I love it

[4:07] um I'm sorry person why why it what a

[4:09] dumb way to praise a thing like better

[4:13] but is something else like why would you

[4:15] need to take some why

[4:16] take poor innocent Paris down to praise

[4:19] London we just say I like London watch

[4:21] let's just leave it at that we're going

[4:23] through a bit of a you know tough time

[4:24] limit so compliments a great greatly

[4:26] well so are we

[4:27] yeah but we're not gonna we're not gonna

[4:32] get onto onto politics I I just wanna I

[4:34] want to ask I said you were many things

[4:36] to many people you're obviously a writer

[4:37] but it's very hard to imagine you ever

[4:40] really have to introduce yourself I

[4:41] think probably when you meet people they

[4:42] know who you are

[4:43] I usually straight men here tonight with

[4:46] their wives or girlfriends we may have

[4:48] to introduce me to them but otherwise I

[4:49] think everybody know so I am here if if

[4:52] we were gonna meet someone who'd be say

[4:55] living off-grid for the last 25 years or

[4:57] in a dark cupboard and you had to

[4:58] introduce yourself and say who you were

[5:01] what what would how would what would

[5:02] that be I would say that I always I mean

[5:05] that's what I do say on the airplane

[5:06] when people say you know what do you do

[5:08] and they don't know who I am I say I'm a

[5:09] writer and then they say have you

[5:12] written anything I've heard of and then

[5:13] I'll say I wrote a book called Eat Pray

[5:14] Love and then I'll wait and there's only

[5:16] two reactions and it's either oh that's

[5:18] nice or yeah I would say was right but I

[5:22] think I'm I think I'm a storyteller and

[5:25] I think I'm a seeker I think those are

[5:27] probably my two biggest jobs that that's

[5:31] how I spend my time although my main job

[5:33] honestly like what most of the hours of

[5:36] my day go to and I'm not even being

[5:38] facetious is actually just managing my

[5:40] mental health truly because like many of

[5:43] us I wake up in the morning and my first

[5:45] conscious thought is like oh [ __ ] [ __ ]

[5:52] you know like how how you know every

[5:56] single day for my entire life and so

[5:59] it's a really huge amount of my day my

[6:02] weeks my month and my years has been

[6:04] given over to trying to figure out how

[6:05] to take that exclamation point of panic

[6:08] that I wake up with and just kind of

[6:10] settle it as best I can so that's my

[6:12] actual job everything else that I do is

[6:15] just a hobby

[6:17] so did you always want to be a writer

[6:20] were you born dreaming of being a writer

[6:22] not born you know as soon as you could

[6:24] think of it were you wanting to be a

[6:25] writer as soon as I could think of it

[6:27] yeah yeah for sure and my I mean it's

[6:29] it's kind of ridiculous but my sister my

[6:31] older sister Katherine Gilbert Murdock

[6:33] who just won the Newbery Medal for young

[6:35] adult literature by the way who's a

[6:38] great great great writer she and I we

[6:41] were raised on a small family Christmas

[6:43] tree farm in New England my parents were

[6:46] so weird and libertarian off the grid as

[6:51] much as you can be off the grid an hour

[6:53] from New York City but they were in a

[6:55] sense we didn't have television and we

[6:57] didn't have a radio and we didn't have

[6:58] any neighbors our age and they my

[7:01] parents were not of the school that it

[7:03] was their responsibility to keep their

[7:04] children entertained and so we had to

[7:07] keep ourselves entertained and books

[7:08] were very very cherished and my sister

[7:11] pointed out to me that she figured out

[7:13] very early on that the only thing that

[7:15] we could ever be doing that my parents

[7:17] would not interrupt us and put us to

[7:18] work

[7:19] doing like farm work was if we were

[7:21] reading that was the only thing that was

[7:23] respected more than physical labor and

[7:26] so we both figured out read a lot it'll

[7:29] mean that you don't have to move the

[7:30] wood pile or milk the goats or do any of

[7:32] that kind of stuff so I think and then

[7:34] Katherine just created these worlds that

[7:36] we lived in because we didn't we didn't

[7:38] have input from the outside world so she

[7:39] would create these incredible universes

[7:42] she would embroider everything she was

[7:45] reading this is even this is when I was

[7:46] pre literate but she'd be reading a book

[7:48] about some dumb 1930s children's book

[7:51] about cave twins and she would take that

[7:54] she would embroider it with a children's

[7:56] biography about Franklin Delano

[7:58] Roosevelt and then we would live for a

[8:00] week in a story that we were cave twins

[8:01] who had a dinosaur who had polio you

[8:04] know or like all these weird things that

[8:06] she would put together and and that's

[8:08] all we did that is all we did and we we

[8:11] wrote plays and we created books I still

[8:14] have these books that we made when we

[8:16] were kids that we bound with thread and

[8:19] we wrote the stories and we drew the

[8:21] pictures I get this we drew our author

[8:23] photos on the back

[8:25] and then wrote quotes from the New York

[8:28] Times we didn't know what the New York

[8:29] Times was but we would take books from

[8:31] my parents shelf and see that something

[8:32] called the New York Times had put a

[8:34] quote on there so we were like really

[8:36] living into that already from a very

[8:38] early age so I can't imagine that I ever

[8:40] ever could have been anything else and

[8:41] now when you come to write do you have a

[8:44] set routine I read that you go away

[8:46] somewhere where you can eat and sleep

[8:48] and will so you dream your stories yeah

[8:51] I have a I'm a very social person it's

[8:54] personally why I think social media has

[8:57] been such a natural pond for me to jump

[8:59] into is because I want to talk to you

[9:01] anyway like if we didn't have social

[9:03] media I would sit next to you on a bus

[9:05] and I would talk to you I want I want

[9:07] that I'm so desperately hungry for

[9:10] connection always and and so I feel like

[9:14] in some way I don't have the typical

[9:16] personality of a writer I think a lot of

[9:19] people become writers so that they never

[9:20] have to deal with human beings again but

[9:23] I really I always say that I have the

[9:24] soul of a very serious literary author

[9:27] but I have the personality of an

[9:28] aerobics instructor come on guys

[9:32] you know so I have to but I have to put

[9:35] the aerobics instructor away in order to

[9:38] do the writing and and so my process is

[9:41] normally like for this book maybe four

[9:44] years of research of just trying to

[9:47] learn everything that I could about

[9:48] because it's set in New York City in the

[9:50] 1940s it's about the theater world's

[9:52] about showgirls it's about musicals it's

[9:54] about World War two in New York and so I

[9:57] had to just almost learn that world like

[9:59] learning a foreign language and you want

[10:01] to get really proficient in that

[10:03] language so that when you sit down to

[10:04] write it just comes out really naturally

[10:06] so it's all about research but then when

[10:08] it comes time to write I have to not be

[10:11] with anybody except a dog it's the only

[10:13] allowed company and I just went away off

[10:16] into the country and you go to sleep at

[10:18] 8 o'clock at night wake up at 4:30 in

[10:20] the morning right nap eat something

[10:23] repeat repeat repeat repeat and until

[10:25] it's done I do it in 1 1 go as fast as I

[10:29] possibly can because I've learned and

[10:30] this is a trick this is weird because we

[10:33] get very fussy when we're writing and we

[10:35] find it's very precious and we want to

[10:36] treat it like it's a Faberge egg but my

[10:39] experience with

[10:39] and I'll hand this to anybody who's

[10:41] writing do it faster it's better the

[10:44] faster you write the better it is you

[10:46] know how I'm a drunk person can run

[10:48] without falling but they can't walk

[10:50] without falling and they absolutely

[10:52] cannot stand without foot you know but

[10:55] like how drunk people have to be in

[10:57] motion to not fall down same with

[10:59] writing if you stop or slow down you

[11:02] will fall and you'll draw it's

[11:04] incredible and I actually took a circus

[11:06] class once when I was in college because

[11:08] I went to NYU where they give you credit

[11:10] for that but I took a circus class and I

[11:12] found out it's the same you can run over

[11:14] a tightrope easier than you can walk on

[11:16] one and it's very hard to stand on one

[11:18] so momentum is actually what's needed

[11:20] and so I really like is mind trick that

[11:24] I do to just see like how fast I can

[11:26] write it and and it's and I don't look

[11:28] back and I don't let myself look back

[11:30] and so it's what it's almost my friend

[11:32] Martha Beck said that watching me write

[11:34] this book was like watching somebody

[11:35] swim the English Channel in one breath

[11:37] but it's it's really better that way

[11:39] it's so weird but but it also remember

[11:42] there's four years of preparation to

[11:43] swim the channel but when you do it just

[11:45] run you know go faster that deliberating

[11:49] over is it of or should it be you know

[11:52] is it this adjective or that will kill

[11:54] you you'll die in it you'll be like

[11:55] those dinosaurs on the tar you just have

[11:58] to move fast fast fast actually that's

[12:01] one of the things that I think I

[12:02] highlighted most of all in big magic is

[12:05] the idea that perfectionism is really

[12:08] something we should try and let go of

[12:09] when we're trying to be creative let go

[12:11] of perfectionism is that right yeah

[12:13] except to do that you have to call it by

[12:15] its true name and so because I think

[12:17] that a lot of perfectionists including

[12:20] myself we use that word because we

[12:23] pretend it's a fault it's what you say

[12:25] in a job interview right if my biggest

[12:27] if anything I'm too much of a

[12:29] perfectionist I care too much you know

[12:32] you actually secretly think it's a

[12:35] virtue and so the trick is to actually

[12:39] expose it to pull off its fake mask and

[12:42] to expose perfectionism by it and call

[12:44] it by its real name which is fear and

[12:46] that's all it is it's fear it's fear

[12:48] that you're not good enough it's fear

[12:49] that you're not worthy it's fear that

[12:50] you're going to be revealed uncovered

[12:52] exposed betrayed criticized all of it

[12:55] and so you're trying to mask that

[12:58] absolute terror by never making a

[13:00] misstep and I feel like when I call my

[13:03] perfectionism fear it's easier to

[13:06] actually make it go away cuz that's not

[13:08] as sexy and it doesn't sound as fancy I

[13:12] always say that perfectionism is just

[13:13] fear and high heels and a mink coat

[13:15] pretending to be fancy like that you

[13:18] know or like sort of a mustache and a

[13:21] you know but it's a disguise it's just

[13:23] terror

[13:24] it's just terror that's the terror it's

[13:28] the lie perfectionism is the lie that

[13:30] says that there's some kind of a rent

[13:32] that you have to pay to be here on this

[13:36] earth and that you've got to master it

[13:38] in order to be allowed to be here

[13:40] when there isn't one you already it's

[13:42] like you're auditioning for a part you

[13:43] already got like you've yet to just be

[13:46] here you don't have to be perfect to be

[13:49] here or even good you just don't have to

[13:52] actually do anything you're allowed to

[13:53] just be that fear is the thing that

[13:56] stops us being creative you think

[13:58] creativity is innate within all of us

[14:00] it's just a fear that would stop us from

[14:02] expressing it yeah and I also think it's

[14:05] a misunderstanding I think a lot of what

[14:07] stops people from not being creative is

[14:09] that they think that it doesn't belong

[14:11] to them how many times have you heard or

[14:13] said I don't have a creative bone in my

[14:15] body I wish I did I wish it was creative

[14:17] I don't have a creative bone in my body

[14:18] it's that some loony that was absolutely

[14:22] crazy it's the hallmark of this entire

[14:24] species there's barely an inch for

[14:26] better or for worse of this world that

[14:29] has not been altered by human creativity

[14:30] it's what we do we take nothing and we

[14:33] turn it into another thing and then we

[14:34] take that and we turn it into another

[14:36] thing and everyone does it it's just

[14:37] it's I mean there's never been a you

[14:40] know you can't link jump a pile of Legos

[14:41] in front of a three-year-old and have

[14:44] them be like yeah I don't have a

[14:45] creative bone in my body I cut you don't

[14:47] put like crayons in front of a kid and

[14:49] they're like you know I'm not that I'm

[14:51] not the artist might you know they're

[14:54] like that you're like they just they

[14:56] just do it until somebody tells them

[14:58] that they're not supposed to write

[14:59] and it's just a notch and the best

[15:01] evidence of that is what kids do and

[15:03] what our ancestors did I always think of

[15:07] my grandparents who were Depression era

[15:09] dairy farmers in northern Minnesota so

[15:12] these are people who I mean their

[15:14] Scandinavian Lutheran's in Minnesota and

[15:16] the depression you can't get less

[15:18] frivolous than that you know like that

[15:21] is like as that is like as scraped away

[15:23] from Beauty pleasure delight and joy as

[15:26] you can get is to be northern Minnesota

[15:28] dairy farmers in 1931 with Lutheran

[15:32] values and and a Swedish accent I mean

[15:35] that is a grim that is really grim and

[15:37] they didn't believe in pleasure and they

[15:40] didn't they didn't trust it and they

[15:42] didn't they didn't like seek out beauty

[15:44] they worked and they struggled and you

[15:46] know they were constantly afraid of

[15:48] losing the farm which they did lose

[15:49] eventually and they were constantly

[15:50] trying to figure how they were gonna

[15:52] survive for the next day it was a really

[15:54] brutal struggle and yet both of my

[15:56] grandparents had things that they made

[15:59] with their hands that were so beautiful

[16:02] my grandmother made quilts and my

[16:05] definition of creativity and art is the

[16:06] making of something that's so much more

[16:08] beautiful than it needs to be so my

[16:10] grandmother needed to make quilts

[16:11] because she had eight kids and they were

[16:13] cold and they couldn't afford to buy

[16:14] material and they had to use old scraps

[16:17] so it makes sense to make a patchwork

[16:18] quilt it didn't need to look like this

[16:22] quilt looked it didn't need to

[16:24] it was excessively these quilts are

[16:27] excessively beautiful I have one in my

[16:29] house hanging on a wall because it is so

[16:31] beautiful

[16:31] and these are people who would have said

[16:33] artists like what does that word even

[16:35] mean but they did it instinctively

[16:37] because there's some human desire that

[16:40] makes us want to do that even in the

[16:42] most strict and harsh and and Beauty

[16:45] starved deprived circumstances there's

[16:48] something in us it's part of the

[16:50] hallmark of our nature and so if you're

[16:53] saying that you're not creative I would

[16:54] just encourage you to look at your

[16:56] ancestors and look at the stuff they

[16:57] made even if they were poor especially

[16:59] if they were poor and then look at the

[17:01] kids and see what they're making and try

[17:03] to figure out what's broken and you buy

[17:05] something you were taught that said that

[17:07] you're not that's frivolous to do this

[17:08] or you're not supposed to do this or

[17:10] you're not invited to do this or you you

[17:11] didn't get the right education

[17:13] do it or not don't have enough money to

[17:14] do it or you're not talented enough

[17:17] whatever those things are it's just lies

[17:18] lies lies lies before we come unto your

[17:23] beautiful creation just one more

[17:25] slightly more general question which is

[17:28] also in big magic you seem to suggest

[17:30] that this idea that you have to suffer

[17:32] for your art that it's a sufferance and

[17:34] that it's sort of something that creates

[17:36] anguish that we've thought about through

[17:37] history that's another myth that you

[17:39] want to dispel yeah my reaction to that

[17:42] is that and it always has been I hate

[17:47] it's like it's maybe it's maybe the

[17:49] cultural myth that I hate the most

[17:51] there's a lot of them there's a lot of

[17:53] really dumb ones about women too but I

[17:55] really really hate that one this this

[17:59] romanticized literally capital are

[18:01] romanticized from 19th century German

[18:03] romantics this romanticized idea that

[18:07] you are not a serious artist unless it

[18:08] makes you bleed unless it's painful

[18:11] unless you give up everything for it and

[18:13] it and there's so many examples of it

[18:15] it's very male it's incredibly male it's

[18:19] incredibly Northern European it's

[18:21] incredibly Calvinist it has a lot to do

[18:24] with a kind of death cult that a lot of

[18:26] this culture is based on it's very life

[18:29] destroying which is the exact actual

[18:32] opposite of what creativity is it's kind

[18:34] of incredible that they did that but

[18:36] they managed to take something that is

[18:39] so life-affirming healing generative

[18:41] generous and beautiful and turn it into

[18:43] a [ __ ] death cult but that's what

[18:46] that's what like 19th century Germanic

[18:49] men did you know with everything they're

[18:51] like let's make it into something about

[18:53] death and and it's not it's about life

[18:56] and I and I have in my relationship with

[18:59] creativity has only ever been one of its

[19:02] feeding me that's what it does it feeds

[19:04] us my grandmother didn't make those

[19:06] beautiful quilts because she had a whole

[19:08] bunch of free time or she was trying to

[19:10] make money or get famous she did it

[19:12] because she was fed and nourished and

[19:16] transported by it I can just imagine how

[19:18] exhausted she was she got up at 4

[19:20] o'clock in the morning to start feeding

[19:21] the farmhands who lived on her farm

[19:24] so that they could get up at five

[19:25] o'clock in the morning and work until

[19:27] dark and then she worked after they

[19:29] worked and then she made these beautiful

[19:31] things that were so much more beautiful

[19:33] than they needed to be there's no reason

[19:34] she would have done it other than that

[19:36] it saved her and it helped her and it

[19:38] made her feel something that her life

[19:41] was more than just the list that never

[19:44] ended of her entire responsibilities of

[19:46] trying to survive that is what

[19:49] creativity is supposed to be and that's

[19:50] a more feminine version of it it's it's

[19:53] a more giving and generous and

[19:55] affirmative version of it but I actually

[19:57] think it's how most human beings created

[19:59] art for most of history and

[20:01] life-affirming is certainly what city of

[20:04] girls is and it reminds me of the

[20:06] literary version of girls just wanna

[20:08] have fun and there's singing that the

[20:10] whole way through as somebody said it

[20:11] was the 1930s version of girls gone wild

[20:13] [Laughter]

[20:17] and there's obviously morals beneath it

[20:20] certainly but what was what were you

[20:22] trying to do with it what were you

[20:23] trying to say what message did you want

[20:25] to get across well um there's a story

[20:28] I've wanted to tell for a very long time

[20:29] I've wanted to write a book about

[20:32] promiscuous women whose lives are not

[20:36] ruined by their sometimes very bad

[20:40] decision making I don't know where I got

[20:43] the idea to write that book

[20:48] so crazy whim I had one day to write but

[20:52] I I wanted to write I've wanted for

[20:55] years to write a book that's a counter

[20:57] to another myth I hate which is the the

[21:02] cultural romanticizing again death cult

[21:05] romanticizing of the ruined woman which

[21:08] is so ingrained in our in our cultural

[21:10] narrative and in our stories and it's a

[21:12] great story I mean it's a great opera to

[21:15] tell the story of a woman who's ruined

[21:17] by desire and who makes one bad move

[21:19] falls in love with the wrong person

[21:21] trust somebody that she shouldn't trust

[21:23] gives over you know gives herself over

[21:25] to passion and that's it the whole thing

[21:26] you know it's like my synopsis of all of

[21:29] those novels and operas and poems is

[21:31] like nice girl on the right path

[21:35] feels desire goes for it one orgasm

[21:39] under the wheels of the Train you know I

[21:41] could that's it

[21:42] and the punishment the wages of pleasure

[21:46] you know it's again this this this is a

[21:50] cultural absolute distrust of pleasure

[21:52] this distrust and fear of pleasure it's

[21:54] so brutal and the punishment is so

[21:56] extreme and and I think that the reality

[21:58] of women's lives not just now but for

[22:00] for all of history is that women are

[22:02] capable of actually surviving their own

[22:05] consequences and surviving there there's

[22:09] a little smattering to the consequences

[22:12] to the consequences you know and and and

[22:15] truly though because honestly if their

[22:18] show of hands it's like it if it wasn't

[22:21] possible for women to survive their

[22:24] terrible stupid mistakes around sex and

[22:26] love would anyone in this room still be

[22:28] alive

[22:29] you know um we're all still here you

[22:32] know we're all still here we're all

[22:34] still here and not just here but maybe

[22:36] more interesting stronger more in a

[22:39] weird way powerful for it and that's the

[22:41] story that I wanted to tell and I didn't

[22:43] want to also tell a sort of falsely

[22:45] cheerful sex positive story where

[22:46] there's no consequences no pain and and

[22:49] that's part of the maturing process of

[22:51] my character Vivian is that she has to

[22:53] she extends her wildness so far out into

[22:56] the world and to to the point where she

[22:58] causes

[22:59] pain and creates problems that she can't

[23:00] fix and a lot of the books about shame

[23:03] and about what you do with that but

[23:04] ultimately she's not a ruined woman

[23:07] she's a seasoned woman who in her 90s is

[23:10] looking back at her very interesting

[23:12] sensual life with a lot of affection

[23:15] toward herself which i think is an

[23:16] incredible accomplishment if you can be

[23:18] a woman in this culture who has

[23:20] affection for yourself that's quite

[23:22] remarkable because you're yeah you're

[23:25] going there's a lot against you but you

[23:30] but you chose to that in the 1940s why

[23:32] did you choose then the 1940s New York

[23:35] was a really interesting moment well

[23:37] first of all I've always wanted a write

[23:38] a love story in New York City as well

[23:39] because it's it's um it's New York City

[23:41] is one of the great loves of my life and

[23:43] and it's the city that is my name for it

[23:47] is the great mother because it's it's

[23:48] the place that always takes me in when I

[23:51] [ __ ] up someplace else like I'd go up

[23:53] and try to be normal in a respectable

[23:56] place and I fail and I come back to New

[23:58] York it's like come back it always just

[24:00] been so generous to me and I love it and

[24:02] so I wanted to write a book about

[24:04] somebody who has that same feeling of

[24:06] love for New York that I do and I feel

[24:07] like 1940s was just such an impossibly

[24:09] glamorous moment and I wanted to set it

[24:11] in the theater because there's always

[24:13] been a lot of promiscuity in the theater

[24:14] it's the world that has its own rules

[24:15] and always has so I thought I could get

[24:18] away with the girls being as wild as

[24:20] they are but um but it's also just a

[24:22] really interesting moment for women's

[24:23] history because it was in New York and

[24:26] it may have been staying here but in New

[24:28] York the men were all gone and and so

[24:32] the women were running the city

[24:33] completely they and and they had work

[24:35] and they were making a lot of money a

[24:37] lot of women who never would have had

[24:39] jobs got these jobs in the munitions

[24:41] plants and in the Brooklyn Navy Yard

[24:42] during the war and and doing all sorts

[24:44] of very interesting things and making

[24:46] Bank

[24:47] there was and saving money and packing

[24:50] it away and buying real estate after the

[24:52] war and creating this whole new kind of

[24:54] woman and there had been all these rules

[24:55] and mores prior to the war that

[24:58] dissolved during the war because their

[24:59] rules like if you're a respectable girl

[25:01] you can't walk around the city in the

[25:03] evening without being on the arm of a

[25:04] gentleman well there weren't any men you

[25:07] know so that rule just had to die you're

[25:09] not allowed to eat in a restaurant if

[25:11] you're a respectable woman

[25:12] because people will assume you're a

[25:13] prostitute well prostitute for who like

[25:15] there's no dudes

[25:16] there's no dudes I'm gonna sit this

[25:18] [ __ ] restaurant if I want to and

[25:20] there's a line in the book later in life

[25:22] where Vivian with her circle of female

[25:24] friends

[25:25] she says one thing that she learned over

[25:27] time is that when women are alone with

[25:29] no men around they don't have to be this

[25:31] or that they just can be and that's kind

[25:34] of what happened in New York is that

[25:35] because there were no men around during

[25:37] the war all these women could just be

[25:38] and they became a really interesting

[25:40] generation and then of course the men

[25:42] came back and all the rules came back

[25:43] and all the women lost their jobs and

[25:45] then the skirts got really big again and

[25:46] like you know it was all like tight

[25:48] waists and tits again after that but

[25:50] there was this period during the war it

[25:51] was like trousers and flats and nobody

[25:53] did anything with their hair and

[25:54] everybody was working and riding around

[25:55] in bicycles and and making money and I'm

[25:58] like that's cool that's kind of what my

[25:59] life is like you know and there was just

[26:01] this little moment in the middle of the

[26:03] century where it was what a lot of

[26:04] women's lives were like and and I just

[26:07] thought it would be a really great place

[26:08] to set it and do you think I mean it's

[26:10] the 1940s it's a long time since then

[26:13] but obviously when a book comes out you

[26:14] can't divorce it from the context and do

[26:19] you feel it's a reaction to a counter to

[26:21] where we are today in the sense that me

[26:24] to movement there are rules again and

[26:26] regulations and a slightly more

[26:29] sanitized view of how relationships

[26:31] between men and women should work I will

[26:33] say a couple things one is let me

[26:35] preface it by saying I'm a violent

[26:38] supporter of me too I think it's long

[26:40] overdue and very needed expression of

[26:43] female rage it also like all expressions

[26:47] of Rage spews out in a lot of directions

[26:49] that are particularly tidy and that's

[26:51] all right because it's finding its voice

[26:53] and it will and it's fine and it's good

[26:54] and it's better than not having it and

[26:57] and and the conversation around consent

[27:00] is is obviously incredibly important I

[27:03] just this is not a but but an and I

[27:06] don't think this is a counter it's just

[27:09] me saying as that's happening let us

[27:12] also please not forget that that consent

[27:16] well absolutely vital is not the only

[27:19] word that exists in the arsenal of

[27:21] female sexual desire history there's

[27:23] also such thing as lust

[27:25] and desire an agency and will and hunger

[27:28] and and passion and the idea of a

[27:32] woman's standing in her own full desire

[27:35] looking out into the landscape seeing

[27:38] something that she wants and being like

[27:39] I'm going to go get that which is

[27:43] something that women also do and there's

[27:46] also such a thing as as women behaving

[27:49] very badly around sex that also exists

[27:52] and and we can't have full and equal

[27:54] conversations about sex that we're going

[27:55] to pretend that that doesn't happen it

[27:57] absolutely does happen there's also such

[27:59] a thing as desire that not only that

[28:03] women themselves can't control there's

[28:05] an incredible book the best book of the

[28:07] Year is coming out in a few weeks that

[28:09] is called three women by Lisa today oh

[28:11] and you will be hearing a lot about it

[28:12] it's a nonfiction book by an American

[28:14] journalist who spent almost 10 years

[28:16] following these three women who were

[28:17] having affairs and it's all about how

[28:20] uncover noble female sexual desire can

[28:22] be and what women are willing to risk

[28:24] when they're overcome by passion and the

[28:27] crazy things that we do when we're in

[28:29] that state and I think it's also a very

[28:31] important book at this moment so none of

[28:33] this is - to take away to combat to

[28:36] discuss to argue to debate it's just

[28:38] let's make sure that in this buffet of

[28:40] conversation we also keep in mind that

[28:44] female sexual desire is an ancient

[28:46] primal dark and I don't mean sinful I

[28:49] mean primal muscular uncover noble force

[28:52] and efforts to sanitize that have always

[28:55] been futile no matter where they're

[28:58] coming from and but that doesn't mean

[28:59] that we can't also be having

[29:00] conversations about justice and the

[29:02] workplace and about it you know the

[29:03] safety of female bodies of course it's

[29:06] not either/or it's both end thanks

[29:10] [Applause]

[29:13] [Music]

[29:15] and there's no water in this cup the

[29:18] emperor has no clothes and well you

[29:21] better for well you're pouring wood it's

[29:23] it's also very much isn't it about

[29:26] female friendship and again something

[29:28] that hasn't been much written about in

[29:30] literature in history and and we're

[29:32] having a time here and I think obviously

[29:34] in the US where books and things about

[29:37] female friendship are coming back we've

[29:39] got fleabag I'm sure there's lots of

[29:40] fans of that if you've seen it I am and

[29:43] and Dolly Alderson everything I love

[29:45] female friendship is is its back and

[29:47] something you seem to really comes

[29:49] across in this book it's very important

[29:50] to you thank you for noticing that

[29:52] because it is of course a book with a

[29:54] lot of sex in it it is about female

[29:56] desire but my hope is that by the last

[29:58] page of this book where your heart

[30:00] actually is connecting to this book

[30:03] isn't the idea of female friendship but

[30:05] that's ultimately what this book is

[30:06] about it's ultimately about a woman who

[30:09] learns how to be a friend to other women

[30:11] and there's it's really important to me

[30:14] in my life to be that the the

[30:17] foundational relationships of my life

[30:19] are my female friendships some of which

[30:22] now I am turning 50 in two weeks three

[30:27] weeks something like that it's gonna

[30:29] pause for a second so I'm just waiting

[30:31] for everybody to be like no you couldn't

[30:35] so I should try that again oh no I am I

[30:39] I know I know it's I'm very useful um

[30:43] you guys [ __ ] slow on the way my

[30:47] friend Cheryl and I were talking about

[30:48] how whenever we tell people our age we

[30:50] did this thing where we wait we're like

[30:52] we wait and then they never say anything

[30:54] we're like no you're supposed to say you

[30:56] don't look your age um but they don't

[30:58] look anyway dude I thank you that's how

[31:02] you do it everybody um but one of the

[31:05] things I'm doing this year do you think

[31:07] I'm doing this year to celebrate turning

[31:09] 50 is that I'm taking each one of my

[31:11] beloved oldest dearest female friends on

[31:14] a trip that is particular to what she

[31:17] would love to do so I went I took my

[31:19] best friend from fourth grade since I

[31:21] was nine to Mexico in January and then I

[31:24] went to Hawaii and March with another

[31:27] really old friend of mine and a friend

[31:28] of mine from 20 years ago whose birthday

[31:30] it is today was just celebrating time

[31:31] and instagrams coming to meet me here

[31:32] tomorrow and we're gonna go do some

[31:34] traveling together and in September I'm

[31:35] going with another and it's all about

[31:37] like so much I think I think we can get

[31:40] so fixated on our romantic partnerships

[31:42] and and I think we can become so certain

[31:45] that that is the most important like all

[31:47] your focus should be on that and yet I

[31:49] look at this field of these women who I

[31:51] love and and you know like with my

[31:53] friend Jenny we've been friends for 40

[31:55] [ __ ] years 40 years I will never have

[31:59] a 40-year marriage I'm too old to even

[32:01] try at this point like I will never have

[32:03] that I you know and and I'll never have

[32:06] that depth of intimacy with with with

[32:08] anybody who knows me that deeply and so

[32:10] so much of this book is about

[32:11] celebrating that in addition to the

[32:14] desire for sex and for intimacy and so

[32:17] Vivien there's a lot isn't there of you

[32:20] in in Vivian I mean not not least the

[32:23] line I think you said about when you sit

[32:26] in if once I got the hang of it I found

[32:28] that eating alone by the window in a

[32:29] quiet restaurant is one of life's

[32:31] greatest pleasures she says yeah that's

[32:33] I think one of the many obviously

[32:36] giveaway lines but also this thing you

[32:38] talk about shame and I think the line at

[32:40] some point in a woman's life she just

[32:42] gets tired of being ashamed

[32:43] all the time and she uh she looks back

[32:45] on her life after that she is free to

[32:47] become whoever she truly is you feel do

[32:55] you feel you at that moment and when you

[32:58] look back at the author that wrote Eat

[33:00] Pray Love yeah

[33:01] is that shame in that in that book oh my

[33:04] god that's like a so shame based III

[33:06] Seamus I'm sorry I interrupted you did

[33:09] you hold on oh sorry I mean it's about

[33:10] you might just love about shame no no I

[33:13] was just gonna say that that's women who

[33:16] wrote Eat Pray Love seems ashamed to

[33:18] break with convention she goes off for a

[33:20] year but is always coming back and you

[33:24] have potentially now decided screw

[33:26] convention forever I die I don't do well

[33:29] in it you know I keep trying but I don't

[33:32] thrive

[33:33] I really don't try it still trying now I

[33:35] don't know I just like keep thinking I'm

[33:37] supposed to be a thing and I'm not I'm

[33:39] just not supposed to be a thing other

[33:42] than what I am I'm really not and and

[33:45] shame is is God it's a killer it's just

[33:49] so brutal it's so and it's such a shame

[33:51] based scarcity based culture that we

[33:54] live in anyway and for women it's

[33:55] especially it's especially brutal and

[33:57] God you're not allowed to make a mistake

[33:58] and if you do you know the only

[34:00] respectable thing to do is to just

[34:02] lacerate yourself for the rest of time

[34:04] about it and it's so vicious and and

[34:06] it's so mean it's so terribly mean

[34:08] because this is you know every woman

[34:11] that I know and probably everybody here

[34:13] male or female if you're in this room I

[34:15] would guess that you are somebody who

[34:18] seriously wishes and wants to and

[34:21] actively wants to practice universal

[34:22] human compassion but that actually

[34:25] matters to you that you've heard of that

[34:26] idea and that you you would love to

[34:28] embody that that you would love to love

[34:30] the world that you would love to be in a

[34:31] state of love and that's probably an

[34:33] active part of your consciousness and

[34:35] then probably every single one of you

[34:36] holds a razor to your neck all day about

[34:40] what a piece of human garbage you are

[34:42] and how your history's greatest monster

[34:43] and it's the dichotomy between that you

[34:46] know the paradox of course is that

[34:48] universal human compassion that does not

[34:50] include the self as not universal

[34:52] there's one big gaping hole in the

[34:54] universal human compassion you

[34:56] have to fold yourself into that as well

[34:58] or else you're not doing it right you

[35:00] know like if you want to do it right

[35:01] that's how you have to do it you've got

[35:03] to just be like I'm just one of us I'm

[35:06] just one of the people who who is also

[35:07] suffering in the dilemma of being human

[35:09] and I need compassion one of the things

[35:11] that's been a big shame Buster for me

[35:13] and I don't know if I can convey this

[35:14] but let me see think I try it but like

[35:15] so hand me hand me that glass okay great

[35:22] that was great now hand me your shame

[35:31] it's imaginary do you see the difference

[35:35] like this is a thing it's here in the

[35:38] material world it's a phenomenon it

[35:40] exists I feel it I see you you exist

[35:42] give me your hand here we are you're

[35:44] real you're warm

[35:44] you're live I'm here I'm warm this is

[35:47] real this is happening you can't give me

[35:50] your shame

[35:51] because it's not a thing it's another

[35:54] thing we [ __ ] invented it do you

[35:58] understand this

[35:59] it's imagine it's literally imaginary

[36:03] it's literally imaginary if I were to go

[36:06] into the woods and I were to stare at a

[36:09] boulder in the woods and I always just

[36:11] say to it you should be ashamed of

[36:13] yourself

[36:16] you should be ashamed of yourself I

[36:18] blame you blame is another one give me

[36:21] your blame blame me what does it do to

[36:25] me unless I decide to agree with the

[36:26] dream right that we're having some sort

[36:29] of a dream that were greeing upon that

[36:30] I'm to blame that you're to be shamed

[36:31] it's all this dream that weren't so if I

[36:33] stand before a rock and I say I blame

[36:36] you

[36:36] you should be ashamed of yourself the

[36:39] rock is real I'm real my voice is real

[36:42] it makes it it's like a vibration and

[36:44] the air the birds will turn around and

[36:45] they'll be like what you know like

[36:47] there'll be something that happens this

[36:49] sort of on the physical level but the

[36:51] rock it will do nothing to it you know

[36:55] I'm a really really good thing to do

[36:57] when you're ashamed and I've done this I

[36:58] swear this is whatever it's how to

[37:01] Academy I'll give it to you sit in front

[37:04] of a tree and ask the tree how you

[37:06] should handle your shame ask for advice

[37:09] how do you think I should get over my

[37:11] shame just wait for the answer and it's

[37:14] like what are you even talking about

[37:16] this is this imaginary it's this dream

[37:19] we've agreed upon this is complete human

[37:21] invention and so when I pictured that I

[37:24] could go to the rock and I could rip the

[37:26] moss off it and that would impact it and

[37:29] I could hammer on it and that would

[37:30] impact it but me saying it's your fault

[37:32] I blame you you failed you failed shame

[37:36] on you nothing it's not it's nothing's

[37:39] happening literally nothing is happening

[37:41] so somehow that that idea kind of woke

[37:44] me to the dream of it a little bit where

[37:46] I'm like you know there's there's an

[37:48] idea of awakening that spiritual

[37:49] awakening that in order to awaken you

[37:51] have to wake up from the waking dream

[37:53] you know that's the next level so

[37:56] there's sleep and then there's this

[37:58] dream that we're in and then there's an

[37:59] awakening past that where you're like oh

[38:00] so much of this is just imaginary and

[38:03] shame is is is is a act of imagination

[38:05] that you are you can actually just

[38:08] decide to see for what it is just just

[38:10] the play that we're in when you're

[38:13] writing when you're writing this novel

[38:14] when you have these messages you want to

[38:16] convey do you have your reader in your

[38:20] sights do you know who your reader is

[38:22] when you're writing on Instagram dear

[38:23] ones yeah

[38:25] who are you talking to and when he

[38:26] writes is it for them or for you more or

[38:29] a balance of the both it's for me it's

[38:32] for me because I like doing it it's fun

[38:34] and I enjoy it and I did it long long

[38:36] long before you guys were interested and

[38:39] thank God you are now but I would do it

[38:41] even if you weren't and I don't not

[38:43] because it makes my life really great

[38:44] the you are but primarily it's for me

[38:48] but then when I sit down to write with

[38:50] every book I've had a different actual

[38:53] person in mind who I write to so eat

[38:55] Pray Love was written as a letter

[38:58] entirely to a woman named Darcy Steinke

[39:01] who just wrote the other best book of

[39:03] the year which is called flash count

[39:05] diary that is about menopause that's

[39:06] getting reviewed everywhere that's

[39:08] amazing but she's been a friend of mine

[39:10] for 20 years and when I left to go

[39:12] traveling for eat Pray Love she had just

[39:14] gone through her own divorce her own

[39:15] depression she was on her own spiritual

[39:17] journey we were very much in the same

[39:19] kind of headspace the only difference

[39:20] was that she had a three year old and so

[39:23] there was no possible way she could do

[39:24] what I did and so I had her in my mind

[39:26] the entire time I was traveling and part

[39:28] of my impetus when I was traveling like

[39:31] my real encouragement to go and do and

[39:33] put myself out there and try really hard

[39:34] things was I would just think Darcy

[39:36] can't do this

[39:37] like Darcy can't do this you've got to

[39:39] do this like you've got to go introduce

[39:41] yourself to this person you've got to

[39:43] get on this train and go to the city by

[39:44] yourself because Darcy can't there's the

[39:46] sense that I do have of like not just

[39:49] that but like all my female ancestors

[39:51] all the way back I always say that like

[39:54] my grandmother who had those eight eight

[39:57] kids and probably probably eight

[39:59] miscarriages who was a farm wife and who

[40:02] struggled and who had children and who

[40:03] struggled and who was at Nagre culture

[40:05] and who struggled her life was precisely

[40:08] and exactly like the lives of every

[40:10] single woman in the history starting

[40:12] there going all the way back to Eve it

[40:14] was just that it was just that it was

[40:16] just women having babies women trying to

[40:18] raise babies and women trying to feed

[40:19] babies women trying to grow food women

[40:21] trying to survive women haven't they it

[40:22] was just that and then something

[40:25] happened

[40:25] birth control came my mom had two kids

[40:28] and a very different life than her

[40:29] mother and I have none and I'm like a

[40:32] new species of woman and and what I feel

[40:35] sometimes is this in

[40:37] edible energy of all of their spirits

[40:40] just being like go do it like do because

[40:45] they didn't get to do anything and every

[40:47] single time I walk up to my tiny little

[40:49] 600 square foot one-bedroom tiny little

[40:53] jewel box of an apartment in New York

[40:55] City that I own that nobody else lives

[40:58] in but me where every single thing in it

[41:00] is stuff I love and I turn that lock on

[41:02] the key and I look in that space I hear

[41:04] all my ancestors being like yeah like

[41:10] yeah holy [ __ ] you got your own house

[41:16] you have your own bedroom you have your

[41:20] own bathroom and you know that like it's

[41:22] tiny it's like this big my apartment but

[41:25] it's like I feel that and I felt that so

[41:26] I wrote every word of Eat Pray Love to

[41:29] Darcy because and it made me be able to

[41:33] choose what goes in the book tune it's

[41:34] always a piece of advice that I give to

[41:35] people who are writing it's just always

[41:37] make sure that you're writing to

[41:38] somebody somebody and not not to a

[41:41] demographic because that's not anyone

[41:43] you know so when I ask people who are

[41:45] writing something who is it for and they

[41:47] say oh it's for women between the ages

[41:49] of 40 and 60 who are on their second

[41:51] marriages and who are you know worried

[41:54] about environmental collapse I'm like

[41:56] that's nobody it's nobody I can't feel

[41:59] who that is in my heart so all of my

[42:02] books have been written - so my last so

[42:04] this one I wrote to my dear friend

[42:06] Cheryl who's a great reader and who is

[42:08] in the theatre herself and I wrote it to

[42:10] delight her and and I wrote signature of

[42:13] all things for my fourth-grade teacher

[42:15] who is the first feminist I ever met in

[42:18] my entire life I walked into class 1978

[42:21] and she had a short bright red hair and

[42:24] vivid clothes and she was young and she

[42:25] was cool and she had written on the

[42:28] bulletin board

[42:29] mrs. Miss Miz and circled Ms carpenter

[42:33] and we were like what and and she just

[42:36] sat there with a bunch of nine-year-olds

[42:38] and explained the whole history of these

[42:40] words and why she would be called MS and

[42:43] I just remember sitting there and being

[42:44] like this is going to be a very good

[42:46] year like and it was she was

[42:48] amazing and she was a great gardener and

[42:50] she loved novels and she read Hemingway

[42:51] to us when she taught us Latin and she

[42:53] just believed that we were infinitely

[42:55] infinitely educated and so I wrote all

[42:58] of the signature of all things directly

[43:00] for her pleasure in her delight so I

[43:02] think it's a wonderful way to create

[43:04] because it also means you're not alone

[43:06] in the room you get to be with the

[43:07] person you're talking to and that can

[43:09] make you feel less alone in your

[43:10] creativity oh there's so many places

[43:13] with that I want to go but because I'm

[43:15] gonna move on to we talked about

[43:18] suffering and creativity and I know you

[43:20] don't think that it's a myth that you

[43:23] need to sort of suffer for your art at

[43:25] the same time eat Pray Love was born out

[43:27] of a very difficult time in your life

[43:29] and I know that this one has come after

[43:32] or perhaps you can tell us about the

[43:34] context and where it came in a really

[43:36] tough and unimaginably hard time and yet

[43:38] you were able to produce this really fun

[43:41] wonderful so as I said free spirited

[43:44] work from a really difficult dark time

[43:47] tell us about that yeah well first a

[43:50] word on suffering um it's real it's the

[43:53] first noble truth of Buddhism it exists

[43:57] and it's universal and it knows where

[44:00] you live this is why I don't love the

[44:02] cult of suffering the cult of suffering

[44:04] which sort of built an altar to it and

[44:06] romanticizes and glorifies it it's not

[44:08] necessary to do that when it's your turn

[44:10] to suffer you'll know because it will

[44:11] come and knock on your door and it

[44:13] always knows where you live and once

[44:14] your turn you'll know cuz you'll be

[44:16] suffering and so you don't need to

[44:17] actually go seek it in order to kind of

[44:20] feel like your life is more important

[44:22] than this that's the kind of so I don't

[44:25] want to deny the existence of suffering

[44:26] and one of the knocks that came on my

[44:29] door for suffering was in 2016 when the

[44:31] most important person in my life my

[44:33] beloved best friend who for years I had

[44:36] not even been able to figure out a word

[44:39] for what to call the relationship that

[44:41] we had best friend was very and just

[44:44] didn't do it it didn't begin to explain

[44:46] what she was she was the only thing that

[44:49] I was ever able to call her was my

[44:50] person and so I would say a husband and

[44:53] I have a person and and Ray has my

[44:55] person she's my she's my first phone

[44:58] call in every emergency she's my

[45:00] first phone call and every celebration

[45:01] when I'm at the end of my power and I'm

[45:04] terrified and overwhelmed it's rare who

[45:07] I call you know she provided all of that

[45:09] she was my adviser she was my guide

[45:11] she's my hero she was she's Raya she was

[45:14] epic she was extraordinary and and then

[45:18] she was diagnosed with terminal

[45:19] pancreatic and liver cancer in 2016 and

[45:22] and death death has many uses one of his

[45:27] which is death and dying and suffering

[45:29] it's a it's a it's a very clear light

[45:31] that shine that can shine suddenly

[45:34] there's a clarity that can happen around

[45:36] dying and the clarity of that moment

[45:40] within a couple weeks of her of us

[45:45] finding out that this was what was

[45:46] happening it was like this giant klieg

[45:49] light spotlight came in and just shone

[45:52] on my life it was just so evident that

[45:54] oh there is a word for what Riya is

[45:57] she's the love of my life I just didn't

[46:00] I hadn't quite pieced it together like

[46:03] that's what it is that's what this is

[46:05] this is who I love and and seeing that

[46:08] and seeing what I saw in the next moment

[46:12] was a future that was so horrific Lee it

[46:21] just it was so unacceptable and the

[46:24] future that I saw was that I knew I

[46:26] would take care of Riya I knew I would

[46:27] be the one taking care of her and I knew

[46:29] that I would be with her at the moment

[46:31] of her death and I was but in this

[46:33] vision that I had I saw that I saw her

[46:36] dying and leaving this earth without

[46:37] ever knowing that ever knowing what she

[46:40] was to me and it was just my soul was

[46:43] appalled by that vision and I saw myself

[46:46] going to her funeral and people coming

[46:49] up to me and saying I'm so sorry your

[46:50] friend died and maybe like yeah and

[46:53] going home after that and just nothing

[46:56] would ever work again I just like all I

[46:58] saw after that would just be this like

[47:00] post-apocalyptic landscape word like

[47:03] nothing would ever work and that

[47:06] couldn't be allowed to occur and so it

[47:09] was an instant

[47:11] pivot an instant pivot of a very happy

[47:14] marriage

[47:14] very loving marriage and and just

[47:17] instantly it just and it was so clear to

[47:19] everybody involved it was very fast and

[47:22] it was very bloodless it was just it was

[47:24] obvious it was just obvious that this is

[47:27] what had to happen so I went to take

[47:29] care of her for the 18 months that she

[47:32] was dying and prior to that I had been

[47:34] researching this book and I was about to

[47:35] start writing it and then she got sick

[47:37] and I put it away and I never thought I

[47:38] would go back to it I just thought who

[47:41] [ __ ] cares about [ __ ] showgirls in

[47:45] New York City in the 1940s I only cared

[47:48] about Raya and but but it so I didn't

[47:50] work on it at all well she was well she

[47:53] was dying but again it was this this

[47:56] clarity and I just I think I just have

[47:59] such trust these days in like in that

[48:02] kind of clarity this clarity that came

[48:05] just a few weeks after she died that I

[48:08] always say like instructions from the

[48:09] mother ship or from the magnet in the

[48:11] sky I don't know it was just the best

[48:13] thing you can do for your life right now

[48:15] is to write exactly that book that you

[48:18] were gonna write before she got sick the

[48:20] most light-hearted life-affirming say

[48:22] sexy sensual like gay spirited you know

[48:27] a book that goes down like champagne

[48:29] cocktail and that is how you're gonna

[48:32] move through this grief and that's

[48:34] what's going to restore you because

[48:36] there had been just such darkness and

[48:38] this is now we got to get some light

[48:40] into this room now and and it was

[48:42] exactly the best thing that I could have

[48:44] done for myself at that moment it was so

[48:48] so much of this book was about bodies

[48:50] about bodies being in in pleasure and

[48:53] enjoy and the sensuality and I think

[48:55] after having been with a dying body that

[48:58] where there's so much pain and so much

[49:00] suffering in the pain and suffering that

[49:02] I experienced in that there was

[49:03] something that was almost like like a

[49:07] pagan Rite of ritual rebirth to write

[49:09] this and to not write a book about Raya

[49:12] she's not in this book you know it's not

[49:15] about her someday there will be

[49:17] something that I will create about her

[49:19] but it this isn't it it needed to be an

[49:22] exact opposite

[49:23] was it was about okay look rotate the

[49:26] earth and bring light back now because

[49:28] the season of darkness has been so so so

[49:30] dark when you announce that your

[49:34] relationship with Raya had changed I

[49:36] think was it on Instagram and I I heard

[49:39] you say I think it was in another

[49:40] interview that you didn't even think to

[49:44] point out that it was with a woman

[49:45] it didn't matter love the curtain Sophia

[49:50] love is love it didn't it didn't even a

[49:53] current you know what's so funny is that

[49:55] at the end of that post and the reason

[49:57] that I announced it was to make my life

[50:01] easier and also because I think

[50:03] transparency is easier then I think

[50:07] transparency is always easier and and

[50:10] it's just I just found it so much

[50:12] simpler to just constantly be sort of

[50:15] telling the truth about what's going on

[50:16] than it is to be keeping up some sort of

[50:19] a story and and and I wanted to be free

[50:23] I knew I had such a short period of time

[50:25] with her and I wanted to be free really

[50:27] free to just anywhere that I went in the

[50:29] world to be absolutely with her in any

[50:32] way that we needed to be physically arms

[50:34] around each other holding each other and

[50:35] not be like we is that Liz Gilbert who's

[50:39] supposed to be married to Javier Bardem

[50:40] what is she doing with that you know

[50:41] like um so I just needed to kind of

[50:45] clear that and I would so much rather

[50:47] tell you but you I just mean anyone I

[50:50] would so much rather tell you what's

[50:52] going on than have people wandering or

[50:54] guessing or speculating and I also just

[50:57] feel like any truly anything I can ever

[51:01] offer about my life that will make your

[51:04] life feel less strange to you I'm why

[51:09] wouldn't I you know like why wouldn't I

[51:13] and so it just seemed like such an

[51:16] obvious thing to do and I knew that

[51:18] people were really invested in my

[51:20] marriage and in the story of Eat Pray

[51:21] Love I also knew that you guys would be

[51:23] fine I have a lot of faith in you I need

[51:25] all be fine like um

[51:28] you may have been invested in my

[51:29] marriage you could not possibly have

[51:31] been more invested in it that I was I'm

[51:32] fine you'll be fine we're all gonna be

[51:34] fine

[51:34] you know like I just knew everybody

[51:36] would be alright and and so I didn't

[51:38] want to like baby anybody by like

[51:40] keeping up some sort of an appearance

[51:41] for people it's just crazy to do live

[51:44] your life that way but but at the end of

[51:46] that post when I made the announcement I

[51:48] I said you know I have one request and

[51:51] it's please don't bombard us with cures

[51:55] like just don't because or horror

[51:58] stories because when you when you're

[52:00] with somebody or when you have cancer

[52:01] ulsan everyone has a story that they

[52:03] want to tell you about they're either

[52:05] cancer miracle or their cancer nightmare

[52:07] and and there's so much to wade through

[52:09] there's so much and it's so many

[52:10] different possible ways that you can

[52:12] take treatments and I just didn't I was

[52:14] like let let us do this let Raya do this

[52:16] she's gonna she's gonna figure out her

[52:17] own path for this and knowing way it

[52:19] will be very much her own path and and

[52:22] just be respectful and please don't you

[52:24] know don't do that and somebody way down

[52:26] in the Facebook comment said when you

[52:28] said started that sentence I have one

[52:30] request please don't she said I just

[52:32] assumed you're gonna say please don't

[52:34] judge me and it was like it never

[52:36] occurred to me to say that never judge

[52:40] me for what

[52:41] it never occurred just why um judge no

[52:45] it was just seemed so crazy and the

[52:48] reaction was incredibly warm credibly

[52:51] warm and loving and and generous and

[52:54] still is you know this is an ongoing

[52:56] conversation that I've been having on

[52:58] social media about this entire process

[53:00] of loss and grief

[53:02] I didn't write very much about it well

[53:03] right it was dying because I was really

[53:05] out with her you know but but since

[53:08] she's died there's been a number of

[53:10] things that I wanted to share and and

[53:11] the sense of the sense of community in

[53:14] the sense of grace that I know a lot of

[53:18] you in this room have been part of it's

[53:19] just it's been exquisitely beautiful

[53:21] what did she teach you about grieving

[53:24] and dying I think she did teach you a

[53:27] lot you you've said you wanted to be the

[53:28] Florence Nightingale and you had a way

[53:30] that you imagined it would be and it was

[53:33] very different to that yeah rheya was

[53:35] very humbling rheya was the most

[53:36] powerful person I've ever met in my

[53:38] our life and I was like I'm going to

[53:41] take care of her like she's a little

[53:43] beautiful precious broken bird and she

[53:45] was like no you're not and and I came in

[53:49] with all sorts of ideas about about how

[53:51] to create like the softest gentlest most

[53:55] and most enlightened most peaceful

[53:58] transition into light and you know she

[54:01] was basically like Keith Richards like

[54:05] that's what Raya was like like that's so

[54:08] no that's not actually how it went and

[54:11] so I had to be very humbled before a lot

[54:15] of things and I had to be very humbled

[54:16] in the reality of how brutal it is to be

[54:19] a caregiver and I thought that I would

[54:21] be really good at it and I thought that

[54:22] all you have to do to be good at it is

[54:24] to really love the person and then

[54:26] that's enough and it's and it's actually

[54:28] not because it will it will take you

[54:30] down and when people would say things

[54:32] like you have to take care of yourself I

[54:33] was like no I don't why would I take

[54:35] care of myself I have to take care of

[54:36] this person who I love and and then I

[54:38] was absolutely shredded by it and I

[54:41] became somebody who had to be taken care

[54:43] of because I collapsed you will you do I

[54:47] was humbled by the reality that there's

[54:50] not a right way to do this you know I

[54:52] really thought that there might be just

[54:53] a right way to do that to do to do

[54:56] caring to do love to do loving to do

[54:58] death it was so messy it was so chaotic

[55:01] it was so brutal andraia was a drug

[55:04] addict I mean she wasn't when I met her

[55:05] she'd been clean for 19 years but the

[55:08] minute they put her on morphine I mean

[55:09] she was she'd been a junkie like a

[55:12] speedball heroin junkie for years and

[55:14] those substances do different things to

[55:17] junkies than they do to the rest of us

[55:19] and so in the middle of this incredible

[55:21] love story all of a sudden there was

[55:23] this amazing blooming Renaissance of

[55:25] massive drug addiction that happened in

[55:27] the center of it and I was like wow oh

[55:29] my god I don't even know how to do this

[55:31] this is a whole other thing how do you

[55:34] deal with somebody who's becoming a drug

[55:35] addict while they're dying what possible

[55:37] threat can you give them to do less

[55:40] drugs you know it's like

[55:43] you have no bargaining chip whatsoever

[55:46] you know it was insanity and she just it

[55:49] was part of Ray's expression of rage and

[55:52] autonomy and fury was to do that and and

[55:55] there was a six-month period in the

[55:57] middle of her dying where she just went

[55:58] on this insane bender and it was it was

[56:01] like this whole other element of

[56:02] brutality and and then there was the

[56:04] humility of discovering that there were

[56:06] other people who were better too at

[56:07] taking care of her than I was and and I

[56:10] was so convinced that because I loved

[56:11] her the most that I would be her best

[56:12] caregiver but her ex-girlfriend and her

[56:14] ex-wife god bless them showed up at the

[56:18] end of her life knowing how tough Raya

[56:19] was to help her and to help me and there

[56:21] was this massive surrender that I had to

[56:23] do to realize that actually Stacy is

[56:25] better at this than I am you know when

[56:27] there are times where Raya wanted to be

[56:29] with other people decide to me because

[56:30] they didn't need as much from her as I

[56:33] need it they didn't love her as

[56:35] desperately as I loved her she could

[56:36] just watch a football game and she

[56:39] didn't have to be in this all the time

[56:40] you know and then and there was there

[56:42] were all these things so none of it when

[56:45] at all like what I had thought and yet

[56:47] it was truly the most beautiful

[56:54] experience of my life all of it there's

[56:57] not a minute of it that I would have

[56:59] changed it's it's the most close to the

[57:05] bone living truly living in presence and

[57:09] in the chaotic insanity of this world

[57:13] that I've ever experienced was to be

[57:15] with her during that and and I and the

[57:18] reason that my life after as dad that

[57:20] doesn't look like that post-apocalyptic

[57:22] landscape that I had envisioned is

[57:24] because we did that because we did that

[57:27] together we had that journey together we

[57:29] had that time together we had that love

[57:31] story we had that Horror Story and and

[57:33] we did it fully and that's why I'm as

[57:36] okay as I am which is not to say that

[57:38] I'm not grieving it's just to say that

[57:41] there's life doesn't feel it feels very

[57:45] much still in a vibrancy and a sort of a

[57:47] 3d because of having experienced that

[57:50] degree of love you know I think read

[57:55] perhaps this

[57:56] that you posted on your Instagram

[57:57] account that really encapsulates how to

[58:00] sort of get through or what grief is for

[58:02] you and then just before the end before

[58:05] we turn to questions from the audience

[58:06] could perhaps you might read that yeah

[58:08] and thank you for reminding me of this

[58:10] Hannah you've brought me this backstage

[58:11] and you know there's things that we find

[58:13] that are so important and then we forget

[58:14] like how did I forget about this poem I

[58:17] posted this poem very recently and it's

[58:20] a poem I should have memorized because

[58:21] it's so so so important it's by Ellen

[58:24] bass and it's called the thing is the

[58:28] thing is to love life to love life even

[58:32] when you have no stomach for it and

[58:34] everything you've held dear crumbles

[58:37] like burnt paper in your hands your

[58:39] throat filled with the silt of it when

[58:43] grief sits with you it's tropical heat

[58:45] thickening the air heavy as water more

[58:48] fit for gills than lungs when grief

[58:52] waits you like your own flesh only more

[58:54] of it an obesity of grief you think how

[58:58] can a body withstand this then you hold

[59:02] life like a face between your palms a

[59:05] plain face no charming smile no violet

[59:09] eyes and you say yes I will take you I

[59:13] will love you again

[59:16] [Applause]

[59:21] [Music]

[59:26] you you say you don't regret a single

[59:29] day as part of your as I said at the

[59:31] beginning philosophy of life living

[59:33] fully every moment if people are in the

[59:36] audience thinking they're not doing that

[59:38] what is your it's it comes throughout

[59:40] all the pages of Eat Pray Love it's

[59:42] throughout this book what do you say to

[59:44] people who say okay how do I do that how

[59:46] do I make sure I live fully appreciate

[59:48] every my I don't know that I do really I

[59:50] mean I want to like hit the brakes on

[59:52] that a little bit cuz like sometimes you

[59:54] haven't just have to have a sandwich or

[59:56] something you know like and and I think

[1:00:00] there's a lining for love where I mean I

[1:00:02] am very intense and that has its

[1:00:04] benefits and it also has its drawbacks

[1:00:06] and there are times when I wish that I

[1:00:08] could just have a sandwich is saying I

[1:00:12] want to lift the most vividly decorated

[1:00:14] life I can yeah I do but it's also

[1:00:16] exhausting for everyone who like it's

[1:00:19] not like necessarily the most enviable

[1:00:21] position the world needs to be my

[1:00:23] partner you know like stuff it's okay

[1:00:26] it's hard it's a tsunami you know I'm I

[1:00:28] would wish sometimes that it would be a

[1:00:30] lot calmer and there's a there's a yeah

[1:00:33] and April have I said something like I

[1:00:34] know an unexamined life is not worth

[1:00:36] living but could I someday just have an

[1:00:37] exam and lunch you know just like a

[1:00:39] little break so I don't know that you

[1:00:42] have to I just think that I will say

[1:00:45] this I will offer that if you feel okay

[1:00:50] I'll give you I was about to say

[1:00:50] something else but I'm gonna go this way

[1:00:51] instead this is a new learning that I

[1:00:54] just got from a meditation teacher who

[1:00:55] I'm working with

[1:00:56] and I posted it recently but if you

[1:00:58] didn't hear it it's a good one in it and

[1:00:59] it helps a lot so depression just start

[1:01:02] kind of stuckness depression is the

[1:01:04] lowest human vibration it's almost death

[1:01:08] that's very close to death it can lead

[1:01:10] very you can slip very easily into death

[1:01:12] from depression as we all know and we've

[1:01:13] seen so depression is like an almost

[1:01:16] it's a vibration so it's just almost not

[1:01:17] even happening and and what this teacher

[1:01:20] taught me is that you can transcend you

[1:01:22] can break depression by allowing

[1:01:24] yourself to feel sadness and fear and

[1:01:27] dread right so a depression is a refusal

[1:01:31] you're so terrified of feeling those

[1:01:33] fins you can't so it's just as shutting

[1:01:35] down that's all the energies

[1:01:37] you just kind of go flat so you can

[1:01:39] break depression by allowing yourself to

[1:01:41] feel feel sadness fear and dread then

[1:01:44] you're in sadness fear and dread which

[1:01:46] are horrible and really uncomfortable

[1:01:48] really uncomfortable feelings you can

[1:01:51] break sadness fear and dread by allowing

[1:01:54] yourself to feel up the next vibration

[1:01:56] which is rage and lust so if you want to

[1:02:02] break sadness fear and dread allow

[1:02:03] yourself to actually experience and feel

[1:02:05] your rage and your lust problem is those

[1:02:09] are also extremely uncomfortable

[1:02:10] feelings you know you're feeling totally

[1:02:13] taken hostage by them like it's not

[1:02:14] comfortable at all the only vibration

[1:02:17] that's higher than rage and lust is

[1:02:20] pride like ego pride and so allowing

[1:02:23] yourself to feel how proud you are egoic

[1:02:26] you are how narcissistic you're that's

[1:02:28] actually a way that you can break anger

[1:02:30] and and and lust and rage that's the

[1:02:34] most uncomfortable feeling of all all

[1:02:36] right it's the narcissism the pride the

[1:02:38] ego that one that one is very hard to

[1:02:42] allow yourself to feel and the only

[1:02:43] thing that can dissolve that is courage

[1:02:46] and very specifically the courage to

[1:02:49] admit that you are powerless that you

[1:02:53] are powerless over all of this that you

[1:02:56] are not to quote my favorite chapter in

[1:02:58] the Bible from the book of Job when job

[1:03:00] is just wailing at God like why is

[1:03:03] everything why is it so horrible why am

[1:03:05] I being so punished why is it so awful

[1:03:07] rage rage you know the highest level of

[1:03:09] vibration he goes from being a nice

[1:03:11] quiet guy to being enraged you know it's

[1:03:13] like right close to divinity is rage

[1:03:15] pride why me why are you doing this to

[1:03:18] me and God gives the longest speech

[1:03:20] that's that's in the Bible and it's

[1:03:22] beautiful and it's it's it's something

[1:03:24] that brings me an enormous amount of

[1:03:25] comfort weirdly it's just this slam down

[1:03:27] where God just says who is this like

[1:03:31] disturbing the peace with words that

[1:03:32] have no knowledge you know what and then

[1:03:35] just just it's takedown just says to

[1:03:37] Jobe

[1:03:38] were you there on the day that I laid

[1:03:40] the foundations of the earth did you do

[1:03:42] that did you create this earth did you

[1:03:44] do that were you there answer you know

[1:03:46] and it's a one assaulting question after

[1:03:49] no

[1:03:49] there were you there were you there when

[1:03:52] I separated the water from the land you

[1:03:54] know how that worked do you know where

[1:03:55] the light came from did you do that did

[1:03:57] you make that

[1:03:57] have you ever commanded the dawn my

[1:04:00] favorite line in the entire Bible

[1:04:02] have you ever anyone have you ever

[1:04:05] commanded the dawn did you do that have

[1:04:07] you ever been able to stop the Sun from

[1:04:10] rising or make it rise have the gates of

[1:04:13] death ever been open unto you do you

[1:04:15] know what the mysteries of death are do

[1:04:17] you know what's on the other side do you

[1:04:18] have that information anyone have you

[1:04:21] ever in just one question after that who

[1:04:23] feeds the wild Raven do you do that you

[1:04:26] know just the lightning answer to you

[1:04:27] that's a great one just the lightning

[1:04:29] answer to you Jobe so that it comes to

[1:04:31] your side and says Here I am where do

[1:04:33] you want me to go no you have no power

[1:04:35] over [ __ ] any of this you have no

[1:04:38] power over any of this and it's so weird

[1:04:40] to realize that the opposite of

[1:04:43] depression is an acceptance of your

[1:04:46] powerlessness because depression can

[1:04:48] feel like it's so powerlessness but

[1:04:50] actually you're still what you're doing

[1:04:51] is you're still in resistance right and

[1:04:53] that surrender into your powerlessness

[1:04:55] is the threshold of peace but you have

[1:04:59] to go through the entire ladder of all

[1:05:01] the stuff so if you're stuck in this low

[1:05:04] vibration I would encourage you with

[1:05:06] safe help if you can get it to start to

[1:05:10] feel sadness start to feel fear start to

[1:05:13] feel rage and lust start to feel pride

[1:05:16] and ego and then finally start to feel

[1:05:18] the incredible courage to just be like I

[1:05:20] have never commanded the dawn I

[1:05:22] literally have no idea what the [ __ ] is

[1:05:24] happening here there's not only no

[1:05:26] ground under my seed there's like no

[1:05:28] earth under the ground and then that's

[1:05:29] all spit like nut like there's no safety

[1:05:32] there's no safety I'm out of control and

[1:05:36] you get that to that place and then

[1:05:38] there's this incredible relaxation that

[1:05:40] comes over you I love and the writer

[1:05:43] Annie Lamott talks about when her son

[1:05:46] was little and he had a little car seat

[1:05:48] she put a um she put a wheel a steering

[1:05:51] wheel on his car seat so he could be in

[1:05:52] the backseat feeling like he was driving

[1:05:54] and then she had to get rid of it

[1:05:55] because it cost him so much anxiety

[1:05:56] because he thought he was driving and he

[1:05:58] didn't know how so he was like he was

[1:06:01] this little three-year-old with white

[1:06:02] knuckles like I don't know who's doing

[1:06:05] this and she said she feels like that's

[1:06:07] what all of us are like you know and so

[1:06:09] when you get to the point where you have

[1:06:11] the courage to admit your powerlessness

[1:06:13] it's when you let go of the fake wheel

[1:06:15] that was never yours anyway right and

[1:06:18] that strangely is actually the opposite

[1:06:20] of depression you don't think so because

[1:06:22] what you keep thinking is that you can

[1:06:23] control your way out of depression you

[1:06:26] can't you have to surrender your way out

[1:06:28] of it so so that would be my advice is

[1:06:30] to start feeling

[1:06:32] [Applause]

[1:06:35] [Music]

[1:06:40] okay I'm gonna very reluctantly hand

[1:06:44] over to you lot for questions you've got

[1:06:46] about 15 minutes we started 15 minutes

[1:06:49] late so if you could put your hands up

[1:06:50] we've got some roving mics and we'll get

[1:06:53] through as many as possible is there mic

[1:06:55] there and be sure please to not take

[1:06:57] that my friend unless you have an actual

[1:06:59] question which is a short statement with

[1:07:01] a question mark at the end of it so no

[1:07:02] stories we're just gonna question I'm so

[1:07:05] glad you said that was gonna bit me yes

[1:07:07] that's the line and so you have to come

[1:07:09] to the mics that right okay so if you

[1:07:11] guess we'll take you hi thank you for

[1:07:15] being you um so so compassion often

[1:07:20] people say it's got to be your being

[1:07:23] your own best friend I just wanted you

[1:07:25] mentioned your female friends what

[1:07:28] advice or what have you learned from

[1:07:30] your best female friends about

[1:07:31] compassion oh I just wrote about this

[1:07:34] today on Instagram my dear friend Cheryl

[1:07:37] whose birthday it is today when I met

[1:07:39] her um almost 19 years ago and by the

[1:07:41] way if anyone has to leave cuz you've

[1:07:43] got like kids babysitters jobs dogs go

[1:07:45] it doesn't hurt my feelings and you

[1:07:47] don't have to tiptoe you just breathe

[1:07:48] we're all free to come we're all free to

[1:07:50] go just do what you got to do so she 19

[1:07:54] years ago when I was going through my

[1:07:56] divorce and my very serious depression

[1:07:58] um very serious like three to four year

[1:08:01] long depression where I really actually

[1:08:02] thought like oh this is what I'm

[1:08:04] actually like now this isn't just a bad

[1:08:06] phase I'm going through and I met her

[1:08:09] and she invited me to come to a

[1:08:11] meditation night and I couldn't do it I

[1:08:13] couldn't sit alone with mice I was in

[1:08:16] such shame and I was in such terror that

[1:08:18] I couldn't sit for a half an hour in

[1:08:20] silence and I had to get out bought my

[1:08:22] cushion and go into the hallway and just

[1:08:23] lose it and and and it was just in there

[1:08:25] weeping and I didn't know her very well

[1:08:28] and I my marriage was falling apart and

[1:08:30] I didn't know what to do I didn't want

[1:08:31] to leave I didn't want to stay I I felt

[1:08:33] so I was supposed to be having I

[1:08:35] promised my husband we would start

[1:08:36] having kids when I was 30 I couldn't

[1:08:38] leave already pray love why am i you

[1:08:40] know but I was at the beginning of that

[1:08:42] and and she came and sat next to me and

[1:08:45] I was doing that heaving double-pumped

[1:08:47] sobbing like that kind you know um

[1:08:51] I've done it this week I still do it

[1:08:53] it's like a thing I do um but she came

[1:08:56] and she sat with me

[1:08:58] and all I could keep saying was I don't

[1:09:00] know what to do I don't know what to do

[1:09:01] I don't know to do because I didn't and

[1:09:03] she just took my face in her hands and

[1:09:05] she said this beautiful calm smile tell

[1:09:09] the truth tell the truth tell the truth

[1:09:12] that's it and that has continued to be

[1:09:16] so I learned that from her that was kind

[1:09:18] of the first time I heard that idea cuz

[1:09:19] I grew up like many of us in a family

[1:09:21] where I had an ethics professor in

[1:09:23] college who said he was this great guy

[1:09:25] with his Bronx accent and he said my

[1:09:27] mother demanded the truth but she

[1:09:29] couldn't deal with it like this is how

[1:09:32] most of us were raised where the truth

[1:09:34] was link demanded but nobody could deal

[1:09:36] with it so it's like be honest but don't

[1:09:38] let us actually know the truth and um

[1:09:40] and so that's where a lot of our splits

[1:09:43] come from in ourselves and and so

[1:09:45] telling the truth was how I got through

[1:09:47] that and Raya who was a great truth

[1:09:49] teller who had gotten sober and stayed

[1:09:51] sober for 19 years by being a truth

[1:09:53] teller because that's the only way to be

[1:09:54] sober and she had this great adage that

[1:09:57] I absolutely loved which was the truth

[1:10:00] has legs it's the only thing in the room

[1:10:03] that will always end up standing so

[1:10:05] everything else can fall apart all the

[1:10:08] relationships can fall apart all the

[1:10:09] dramas can blow up everything can turn

[1:10:11] to dust at the end of the day at the end

[1:10:14] of the whole drama the truth will be the

[1:10:16] only thing that is left standing in the

[1:10:18] room and Azrael used to say since it's

[1:10:20] where we're gonna end up why don't we

[1:10:23] just [ __ ] start there and that's what

[1:10:26] she would do is like that's and that's

[1:10:27] I've learned it and I learned it from

[1:10:29] her and I can honestly say that that's

[1:10:30] what I do now in every dilemma is I

[1:10:33] think let's just start there let's just

[1:10:36] start with the truth and since it's

[1:10:38] where we're going anyway and it's made

[1:10:39] it hasn't necessarily taken away

[1:10:41] suffering disappointment and pain

[1:10:43] heartache but it certainly has taken

[1:10:45] away a lot of drama yeah the

[1:10:48] truth-telling is a really good way to

[1:10:50] lure the drama but thank you so much

[1:10:53] yeah thanks thank you for you pretty

[1:10:58] love cuz it was my and

[1:11:00] to my spiritual journey oh yeah the

[1:11:03] question that I have is I've decided

[1:11:05] about eight years ago that I don't want

[1:11:08] children I don't think it's for me and

[1:11:10] everyone around me wants to convince me

[1:11:13] otherwise and I respect people who do

[1:11:15] decide to have children but it's just

[1:11:18] not for me but sometimes I do get the

[1:11:20] fear about you know when I'm older and

[1:11:23] then I'm gonna be alone because I don't

[1:11:26] have kids when everybody else you know

[1:11:28] might pass and I just wonder how do you

[1:11:31] deal with that decision and what advice

[1:11:33] do you have for women who might make

[1:11:34] that make that I have such a gift for

[1:11:36] you

[1:11:37] I have statistics would you like them I

[1:11:42] have statistics first of all you're

[1:11:45] gonna live longer you are women without

[1:11:48] children live longer than women with

[1:11:50] children you're gonna be wealthier

[1:11:52] you're gonna be less liable to commit

[1:11:54] suicide you're gonna be less liable to

[1:11:56] become an addict you're going to be less

[1:11:59] liable to you let you'll weigh less it's

[1:12:03] so weird it's like every single you'll

[1:12:04] you'll be healthier they'll have less

[1:12:06] heart disease less depression less

[1:12:07] anxiety so that's okay first of all you

[1:12:11] know and for everyone who has two kids

[1:12:12] doesn't mean you're doomed you know Mike

[1:12:15] I think that actually you what women do

[1:12:18] when they want to and when they when

[1:12:21] they feel that desire I almost think

[1:12:22] it's not a choice like that's how I felt

[1:12:24] for like for me is it that ultimately it

[1:12:25] was like I know what it feels like God

[1:12:28] do I know what it feels like to want

[1:12:29] something um I really it's not like I

[1:12:32] walk around not knowing what longing

[1:12:33] feels like I just never had that longing

[1:12:36] you know so I just been obedient to my

[1:12:38] longings and rather than to what what

[1:12:40] other people have told me to do so first

[1:12:42] of all like you've got great future

[1:12:44] ahead of you but secondly this whole is

[1:12:46] kind of this is how they get you like

[1:12:48] cuz they'll be like oh it's all well and

[1:12:49] good now you'll die alone and your cats

[1:12:52] will eat you

[1:12:54] so there have been some very fascinating

[1:12:58] studies that have been done in American

[1:13:00] nursing homes of elderly women to

[1:13:02] determine whether or not it is true that

[1:13:05] women who don't have children or family

[1:13:07] are unhappier an old age than women who

[1:13:10] do and this is what they have determined

[1:13:12] it is a non-starter in terms of a

[1:13:16] measuring they can't find any

[1:13:18] statistical correlation between

[1:13:19] happiness and old age of happiness and

[1:13:22] health and old age of elderly women and

[1:13:24] whether or not they have children here

[1:13:26] are the things that actually determine

[1:13:29] whether you will be happy when you are

[1:13:31] an elderly lady

[1:13:33] and it is your health so what they worry

[1:13:36] but what makes the old ladies unhappy is

[1:13:38] their poor health and financial and

[1:13:40] security so flustered teeth wear your

[1:13:43] seat belt save your money and you'll

[1:13:44] have a [ __ ] greater life of the

[1:13:45] absolute

[1:13:46] [Applause]

[1:13:50] [Music]

[1:13:56] hello this is a much easier way of doing

[1:13:59] it popping up yeah such a joy see you

[1:14:04] again it's a joy to show you last year

[1:14:06] as well my question is around something

[1:14:09] that you said on the Sheri and Nancy

[1:14:11] podcast which I've heard other people

[1:14:13] say which is that you can't truly love

[1:14:16] another person until you really love

[1:14:19] yourself and it's something that I've

[1:14:20] struggled with because I am incredibly

[1:14:22] kind and generous and giving to my

[1:14:25] friends and everybody but I'm awful to

[1:14:27] myself like without even realizing it

[1:14:29] and so I feel like I can give a lot of

[1:14:32] love now and though I'm not giving a lot

[1:14:35] of love and way to myself yeah how does

[1:14:38] that sentence fit together and if I'm

[1:14:40] wrong and you're right

[1:14:42] and it's just that you know we are all

[1:14:44] on the whole of life is a journey

[1:14:47] towards loving ourselves unconditionally

[1:14:49] right and that's why when we were in

[1:14:52] relationships with other people you know

[1:14:55] they might fail they might not be good

[1:14:57] or them we might have problems it's

[1:14:59] because all of us some further along

[1:15:02] than others at the point where we don't

[1:15:05] love ourselves give ourselves the love

[1:15:06] that we really need I'm kind of wishing

[1:15:08] ahead and said that honestly no I'm

[1:15:10] thinking not the only person that said I

[1:15:12] know I know I know it's like a trope

[1:15:13] it's a thing and actually as you're

[1:15:15] saying and I'm like it's true like where

[1:15:17] and and what did I mean when I said that

[1:15:18] and I think I I don't know that it's

[1:15:22] true because I think that a lot of

[1:15:23] people I know who are very as some of my

[1:15:26] very dearest friends are absolutely big

[1:15:28] they actually have terrorists who live

[1:15:31] inside their minds who are so evil to

[1:15:33] them and they're so good and kind yeah

[1:15:36] it's funny so they do absolutely have

[1:15:39] the capacity to love and to have really

[1:15:41] generative and beautiful relationships

[1:15:42] so I think that maybe that is simply not

[1:15:46] true and and maybe even it's cruel to

[1:15:49] say it because it just gives you another

[1:15:50] thing to think you're doing wrong and

[1:15:52] that's not nice

[1:15:54] and I don't like to ever ever kind of I

[1:15:57] don't ever like to add to the pile of

[1:15:59] things especially things that women

[1:16:00] think they're doing wrong so I'm kind of

[1:16:03] glad you brought it up and I think maybe

[1:16:05] I won't say that any more

[1:16:06] thanks for me I think um you know I I do

[1:16:10] think in my own case that you know

[1:16:14] self-love is a very very high lofty

[1:16:17] aspiration and and and I kind of don't

[1:16:22] even use the word self-love because I

[1:16:23] think it's a bit degraded and-and-and

[1:16:25] meme like and I'm not sure any of us

[1:16:28] really even know what it means and I

[1:16:31] settle for just the friendliness is the

[1:16:35] word that I use a sort of a sort of

[1:16:37] essential like a sort of essential

[1:16:39] friendliness from self to self I think

[1:16:42] that that's a good place to start

[1:16:43] self-love just seems like it could be

[1:16:45] out of reach for a lot of us and and

[1:16:47] when that doesn't work the word that I

[1:16:48] use that really will often restore me

[1:16:51] back to sanity and back to dropping the

[1:16:53] knife that I hold to my throat is

[1:16:56] stewardship so that the way that I see

[1:17:00] that especially because women are

[1:17:01] stewards of so many precious things like

[1:17:03] women of the women have always been the

[1:17:05] stewards of the vulnerable beautiful

[1:17:07] precious fragile things in the world

[1:17:08] right so so the way I have come to see

[1:17:11] it is that I again I don't know what is

[1:17:14] literally going on in the universe but

[1:17:16] it does appear that I was given this one

[1:17:19] to take care of I don't know why

[1:17:22] apparently they thought that I could

[1:17:26] like they're like we're gonna we're

[1:17:28] gonna trust you with this one and I sort

[1:17:30] of like to think they wouldn't have

[1:17:31] given it to me if they didn't think that

[1:17:33] I could take

[1:17:33] pretty nice care of it you know or

[1:17:36] protect it as much as possible and so

[1:17:38] the sense is the stewardship of your own

[1:17:40] being

[1:17:41] right that is for some reason they gave

[1:17:44] me this one they gave me this body they

[1:17:46] gave me this mind they gave me these

[1:17:47] talents they gave me these traumas and

[1:17:49] these anxieties and then I think that

[1:17:51] the I think the assignment is can you

[1:17:54] take care of it you know would you be

[1:17:56] kind to it we're giving it to you or

[1:17:58] putting it in your hands which would be

[1:17:59] kind to it as you would be kind to any

[1:18:01] fragile living thing and in that sense

[1:18:04] of my sense of land stewardship over

[1:18:06] myself has gotten me out of some very

[1:18:08] bad situations in my life that I might

[1:18:10] have stayed in longer that were not

[1:18:14] places where this being was thriving

[1:18:17] right so I believe that part of

[1:18:19] stewardship is to put this being into

[1:18:22] environments where it can thrive and

[1:18:24] thriving to me means being able to sleep

[1:18:27] well

[1:18:28] being able to eat well being and not as

[1:18:31] abrupt not not at burdens not really

[1:18:34] heavy with anxiety being you know like

[1:18:36] just being a good good situation for it

[1:18:39] like a good environment for it and what

[1:18:41] I've discovered over the years is that I

[1:18:43] can actually weirdly trust at this point

[1:18:45] that when I put it into a circumstance

[1:18:49] that's not good for it it will collapse

[1:18:51] and that's my dear friend life guiding

[1:18:55] me that this isn't actually where it's

[1:18:57] supposed to be because when I find

[1:18:59] myself back in a doctor's office asking

[1:19:01] for antidepressants again I'm like wait

[1:19:04] a minute wait a minute where am I in my

[1:19:06] environment that this isn't this thing's

[1:19:07] not thriving it's not thriving it can't

[1:19:10] sleep it can't it can't eat it's crying

[1:19:12] all the time it's like this thing that I

[1:19:14] was given to take care of isn't doing

[1:19:15] very well what are we gonna have to

[1:19:18] change to take care of it so that I

[1:19:20] think is is how I see self-love is just

[1:19:24] of a reverence for life which I think

[1:19:27] women are good at women are really good

[1:19:29] at reverence for life we take care of

[1:19:31] vulnerable beautiful special things we

[1:19:33] just forgot that we're one and that

[1:19:36] we're actually lead one that it's like

[1:19:38] whatever there's other ones that you may

[1:19:40] take care of for short periods of time

[1:19:42] or longer periods of time but they come

[1:19:43] and go even your own kids will

[1:19:46] eventually go and then who's the one

[1:19:49] that you're constantly in stewardship

[1:19:50] over it's got a you know it's got to be

[1:19:52] you so so I take back what I said and

[1:19:54] and I think it was kind of a mean thing

[1:19:57] to say and I'll pile contemplate that

[1:19:59] more but I do still think that it's

[1:20:01] worthy to cultivate an essential posture

[1:20:04] towards yourself a friendly friendly

[1:20:06] stewardship let's just call it that and

[1:20:08] then we can maybe aim for love but but I

[1:20:11] think essential friendly stewardship not

[1:20:13] treating yourself like you're a mugger

[1:20:15] would be nice you know so yeah thanks

[1:20:20] thanks honey yeah

[1:20:26] I'm sorry I know that there are so so

[1:20:28] many more questions but my little clock

[1:20:30] is just showing the noughts but thank

[1:20:33] you all so very much for coming and

[1:20:34] Elizabeth Gilbert thank you so so so

[1:20:36] much

[1:20:41] thank you

[1:20:43] get up there

[1:20:44] [Applause]

Elizabeth Gilbert
ArtistElizabeth Gilbert

American author whose 2006 memoir Eat Pray Love — a year-long journey through Italy, India, and Indonesia in search of pleasure, devotion, and balance — became one of the most-read…

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Creative-survivalMental-healthStorytellingMemoir-writingAuthenticity

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Frequently Asked Questions

Raised on an isolated Connecticut Christmas tree farm without television or neighbors, she and her sister Katherine created imaginary worlds as survival. Reading was the only activity their parents wouldn't interrupt with farm chores, making it their primary refuge and eventually their path to storytelling.
Rather than choosing between opposites—seriousness or pleasure, depth or joy, rigor or play—she advocates expanding to include both. Her sister's childhood stories combined cave twins with FDR biographies; Gilbert applies the same principle to living: both sensual and seeking, both devoted and unafraid to leave when necessary.
Managing her mental health. She wakes up most mornings with a panic reflex and spends significant time learning to settle that anxiety. She describes writing, traveling, and public work as hobbies built on top of this foundational mental health work.
Yes. She describes herself as a storyteller and seeker, and emphasizes that Eat Pray Love documented her uncertainty and search, not solutions. Her subsequent books—Big Magic, Committed, City of Girls—continue that conversation about constructing authentic meaning in a fleeting life.
It encapsulates her philosophy of approaching creative work with joy, generosity, and freedom from narrow myths about how serious artists must behave. The book extends the principle she learned on the farm: creativity is about expansion through addition, not restriction.
She argues life is both fleeting and dangerous, making it irrational to deny yourself pleasure or to be anything other than what you are. Rather than suffering for art or meaning, she advocates expanding to include both depth and joy, both rigor and sensuality.

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