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Inspiration

Brain Age vs. Calendar Age: How Scans Reveal Hidden Aging

MH
Mark Hyman
Oct 21, 2026
8 min read

From Mark Hyman, MD

Watch · 7

For decades, psychiatrists and neurologists have worked almost completely separately. Psychiatrists treat the mind's disorders; neurologists examine the brain's physical structure. Rarely do the two disciplines meet. Paul Thompson, a neuroscientist whose work spans both territories, has spent his career building a bridge between them—and in doing so, he's uncovered something that upends how medicine thinks about aging, resilience, and what we can actually control about our cognitive future.

Thompson's entry point was unexpected for someone who would become a world authority on brain mapping. He began as a classics major at Oxford, studying Greek and Latin with no obvious trajectory toward neuroscience. But during his PhD work in Los Angeles in his 20s, he gained access to UCLA's brain mapping center, where he encountered three-dimensional imaging that showed not just the brain's structure but its activity, its molecular content, and whether patterns fell within normal range or showed signs of depression, deterioration, or disease. That moment—seeing the brain in real time, in full dimensional color—changed everything.

Read · 7 sections

The ENIGMA Consortium and the 200,000 Brain Scans

Thompson went on to co-found and lead the ENIGMA Consortium, a global brain mapping collaboration that now involves 2,500 scientists across 47 countries. The scale is staggering: the consortium has analyzed over 200,000 brain scans and studied more than 30 different brain disorders. What emerged from this vast data set was a pattern that conventional medicine had largely missed. Brain diseases—whether Alzheimer's, schizophrenia, depression, or anxiety—are not merely psychiatric descriptions or chemical imbalances to be treated with a single class of drugs. They are physical, measurable changes in brain tissue that can be tracked, photographed, and potentially slowed or reversed through targeted intervention.

For Alzheimer's disease, the evidence was particularly striking. Thompson and his collaborators could observe what he describes as a "wildfire of tissue loss" spreading through the brain as the disease progressed. Using sequential brain scans taken weeks or months apart, researchers created time-lapse movies showing exactly how the disease propagates: it begins in the memory system, then attacks language centers, and eventually advances to the frontal regions involved in planning and decision-making. This wasn't metaphorical decline; it was visible, measurable degeneration that could be compared across patients and tracked before and after treatment.

That same imaging approach eventually entered psychiatry, when pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly asked Thompson and his team whether brain imaging could reveal what antipsychotic medications were actually doing in the brain. When patients with schizophrenia were scanned and then rescanned three months later after taking antipsychotic medication, the data showed something unexpected: the rate of tissue loss had slowed. The medication wasn't just managing symptoms; it was measurably altering the brain's physical trajectory.

What Is Brain Age, and Why Does It Matter?

One of Thompson's most actionable discoveries emerged from this work: the concept of "brain age." Your brain age is not the same as your calendar age. Two 70-year-olds may have dramatically different brain ages depending on their metabolic health, sleep quality, nutrition, physical activity, and other lifestyle factors. Brain imaging can reveal whether your brain looks 65—younger than your years—or 85, older and more vulnerable to cognitive decline and disease.

This distinction matters because it reframes aging itself. You are not simply a prisoner to your birthdate or your genetics. The structure and function of your brain respond to the choices you make every day. While genes play a role—particularly genes like APOE4, which increases Alzheimer's risk—they do not determine your fate. As Thompson's research consistently shows, what you do with your body, how you sleep, what you eat, and how you move all leave measurable traces in your brain's physical tissue.

Understanding brain age also provides a concrete way to measure whether interventions are working. In drug trials, in lifestyle experiments, in any clinical setting, researchers can now ask: Does this treatment make the brain younger, or does it slow the aging process? Rather than relying on patient-reported mood or memory improvements—which are subjective and influenced by expectation—brain imaging offers objective evidence of change.

The Metabolic Brain Connection

A crucial finding woven through Thompson's research is that brain health is inseparable from metabolic health. The brain is metabolically demanding; it consumes roughly 20 percent of the body's energy. When metabolic dysfunction develops—when blood sugar regulation fails, when blood flow deteriorates, when inflammation spreads—the brain suffers first and most severely.

This connects seemingly disparate symptoms to a common root. Someone struggling with fatigue, mood disturbance, or memory loss is often treated as if each symptom belongs to a different specialist. But Thompson's data suggests these are often branches of the same tree: dysfunction in metabolism, circulation, or nutrient availability. The psychiatric patient taking an antipsychotic that causes weight gain and metabolic syndrome is being set up for future cognitive decline. The person with untreated sleep apnea isn't just tired; their brain is being starved of oxygen and the restorative glymphatic clearing that occurs during sleep. The individual eating a pro-inflammatory diet is slowly damaging the vascular system that feeds their brain.

What makes Thompson's work heretical in conventional medicine is that it asks doctors to look at the whole body when treating the brain, to think metabolically about psychiatric disease, and to recognize that lifestyle interventions—sleep optimization, metabolic support, anti-inflammatory nutrition, cardiovascular exercise—are not supplements to medication but foundational treatments in their own right.

Sleep and the Brain's Nightly Cleanup

One specific mechanism Thompson emphasizes is what happens during sleep. When you're asleep, the brain engages in a process called glymphatic clearance—a kind of waste-removal system that drains metabolic byproducts, including proteins like amyloid and tau that accumulate in Alzheimer's disease. Without adequate sleep, this cleanup system fails to operate effectively. Over time, toxic proteins build up, inflammation increases, and cognitive decline accelerates.

Sleep is not luxury or indulgence. It is a foundational physiological process as necessary to brain health as blood flow or glucose metabolism. The data supporting this is now overwhelming: people with sleep disorders show accelerated brain aging, higher rates of dementia, and worse outcomes across virtually every neuropsychiatric condition.

Genetics Are Not Destiny

Throughout the ENIGMA Consortium's work, one consistent finding has emerged: genetic risk—even for a condition like Alzheimer's disease—is not fate. Carrying the APOE4 gene increases your statistical risk of developing Alzheimer's, but many carriers never develop the disease, and many without the gene do. What determines whether genetic risk manifests is primarily environmental: how you sleep, move, eat, manage stress, and maintain metabolic health.

This finding has profound implications. It means that learning your genetic risk should not be experienced as a sentence but as information that can motivate protective action. If you carry a genetic vulnerability, the evidence suggests you have even more reason to optimize the modifiable factors under your control.

The Future: AI, Blood Biomarkers, and Precision Medicine

Thompson's work with biomarkers extends beyond brain imaging. Blood tests can reveal metabolic, inflammatory, and vascular markers that correlate with brain aging and cognitive decline. Artificial intelligence is beginning to analyze brain scans and blood biomarkers together, creating a more complete picture of who is at risk and which interventions are most likely to help which patients.

The vision is precision medicine for the brain: rather than giving all depressed patients the same SSRI or all Alzheimer's patients the same drug, clinicians could eventually use imaging, genetic data, and blood biomarkers to identify whether a patient's problem stems from vascular insufficiency, metabolic dysfunction, inflammation, or some other root cause—and prescribe accordingly.

Where to go from here

If Thompson's research teaches anything, it is that your brain's future is not fixed. The tissue loss, the cognitive decline, the neurodegenerative diseases we associate with aging are not inevitable. They are the result of accumulated choices and exposures over decades. Conversely, they can be slowed, arrested, or partially reversed by addressing the foundational factors: metabolic health, sleep quality, cardiovascular fitness, anti-inflammatory nutrition, and stress resilience.

You cannot change your genes or your birth year. But you can change your brain age. Every night you sleep well, every meal you choose anti-inflammatory foods, every time you move your body, every moment you regulate your stress—you are making a measurable change in your brain's physical structure. That change may not be visible to you, but it is visible on a brain scan. And across thousands of patients, across 200,000 scans, across decades of research, that accumulation of choices determines who ages gracefully and who declines.

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Transcript

[0:00] of of the mind.

[0:02] >> Welcome Paul to the podcast. So good to

[0:04] have you.

[0:04] >> Appreciate it.

[0:05] >> I'm sort of in awe of your work. [music]

[0:07] I think you know you're one of the few

[0:09] scientists out there who's connecting

[0:10] the dots in ways that most scientists

[0:13] don't because we're learn to be tunnel

[0:15] vision in science. We pick one topic. We

[0:18] have one trajectory we're working on our

[0:20] whole career. We're reductionist to a

[0:22] fault. Sure.

[0:24] >> And you've zoomed out and you created

[0:27] this extraordinary project called the

[0:29] Enigma Consortium which uh is a global

[0:32] brain mapping collaboration involving

[0:35] 2500 scientists across 47 countries. And

[0:38] you're looking at brain imaging of all

[0:40] sorts and biomarkers, blood biomarkers.

[0:44] And you're you're you're kind of doing

[0:47] something that's kind of heresy in

[0:49] medicine, which is looking at

[0:51] psychiatric diseases by looking at the

[0:54] brain. [laughter] The joke in medicine

[0:57] is that psychiatrists pay no attention

[0:59] to the brain and neurologists pay no

[1:01] attention to the mind.

[1:02] >> Yes. Yes.

[1:03] >> And you're paying attention to both the

[1:06] mind and the brain and how they relate

[1:08] and they're not the same exactly. and

[1:10] how the [clears throat] rest of your

[1:11] biology plays a role. And you're you're

[1:14] not just looking at the typical

[1:15] neurologic diseases like Alzheimer's and

[1:17] Parkinson's and so forth, but you're

[1:19] looking at psychiatric conditions uh

[1:21] which typically have been just diseases

[1:24] of description. You get these symptoms,

[1:26] you get this diagnosis. It's basically

[1:28] the DSM5, which is a we all call the

[1:30] diagnostic and statistical manual number

[1:32] five. There'll be a number six soon. I

[1:35] think they used to have visitation from

[1:36] the gods and things like that, but I

[1:38] mean they've updated it, [laughter] but

[1:40] it's not any better than that. Honestly,

[1:42] my opin opinion, I asked Thomas Insul,

[1:44] who you probably know is the head of the

[1:45] NIH for uh the National Institute of

[1:47] Mental Health for a while, and I said,

[1:49] Thomas, what what do you think of the

[1:50] DSM5? He's like, well, he said it has

[1:52] 100% accuracy, but 0% validity. I

[1:55] [laughter] mean, it's very accurate in

[1:57] describing and putting people into

[1:58] groups and categories according to their

[1:59] symptoms, but not at all about

[2:01] understanding the cause or mechanisms of

[2:02] the disease. And for the first time, I

[2:04] think I don't I don't know too many

[2:05] people doing what you're doing, which is

[2:07] you're you're looking at the biology of

[2:10] mental illness in a way that's not just

[2:12] it's a chemical imbalance and take

[2:13] serotonin reuptake inhibitors, but

[2:15] really a much more nuanced view of how

[2:17] the structure and function of the brain

[2:19] work together and and how to how that

[2:21] can help us understand these conditions,

[2:23] how it can in start to kind of bring

[2:26] about novel treatments that we haven't

[2:28] thought about before, make discoveries

[2:29] we never thought of before. I don't know

[2:31] how you got into this, but like you you

[2:33] were kind of a Greek and Latin major at

[2:34] Oxford, and I don't even I don't even

[2:37] know where you go with that. I'm

[2:38] becoming [laughter] a classics

[2:39] professor. What took you down this road,

[2:41] and how did you get this aha that we

[2:42] should be looking at things a bit

[2:44] differently?

[2:44] >> Well, first of all, M, I really

[2:46] appreciate your invitation to be to be

[2:47] here today. I admired your work for

[2:49] many, many years, and it's it's fun to

[2:50] be

[2:51] >> I was hoping you say yes. I didn't even

[2:52] know you was. I was like, I hope he

[2:53] comes on this podcast. He's a he's a

[2:54] real scientist. I'm just kind of a

[2:56] quacky doctor.

[2:57] >> You you you do incredible work, Mark.

[2:59] So, I mean, just first of all, on the

[3:01] classics, if if we we were joking about

[3:03] this, if we meet any ancient Greeks,

[3:04] we're going to be fine. We'll be able to

[3:06] look after them. But I I grew up in

[3:07] England, as you can probably tell from

[3:09] my funny accent,

[3:10] >> and I had the chance to work at UCLA

[3:13] during my PhD in my 20s here in in Los

[3:15] Angeles,

[3:16] >> and they had a brain mapping center, a

[3:19] brain mapping center. And so what you

[3:21] could do at UCLA and now this is

[3:23] available across the world is you could

[3:24] have a three-dimensional picture of the

[3:27] brain not just what it looks like but

[3:29] the the activity of the brain what is

[3:32] the molecular uh content of the brain is

[3:35] the activity in the normal range is it

[3:38] depressed like in depression is it

[3:40] deteriorating like in dementia so I just

[3:42] got absolutely fascinated by this and I

[3:45] mean you know Mark in your own work you

[3:46] can use these technologies to give you

[3:49] insight into whether someone is doing

[3:51] okay, whether they need some uh

[3:53] medication or lifestyle intervention or

[3:56] for that matter in a drug trial. You can

[3:57] use these as a readout of whether or not

[3:59] the medication is is working.

[4:01] >> It's incredible. You know, and you know,

[4:03] you have been part of this consortium

[4:06] and collaboration across 47 countries,

[4:08] done 200,000 brain scans, which is a

[4:11] staggering number of brain scans, over

[4:12] 30 different brain disorders. What are

[4:15] you seeing? What are the patterns that

[4:16] are emerging? So I can tell you a little

[4:18] bit about the different brain diseases

[4:19] and and I know your listeners are going

[4:21] to be very familiar with with some of

[4:22] these perhaps less so with others. So in

[4:25] old age a lot of people get dementia and

[4:28] one of the kinds of dementia Alzheimer's

[4:30] disease is is a huge problem and so as

[4:34] you know maybe among 70 year olds maybe

[4:36] 5% of them have this but every five

[4:38] years after 70 years of age its

[4:41] incidence doubles. So that that's that's

[4:43] pretty incredible. I mean at 75 10% of

[4:45] people at 80 years of age 20% of people.

[4:48] So this is this looming epidemic hazard

[4:51] that that is coming.

[4:52] >> Yeah.

[4:53] >> So one of the early results with brain

[4:55] imaging that really showed its its value

[4:58] was that if you scan people as they

[5:00] progressed with Alzheimer's disease,

[5:02] there was this wildfire of tissue loss

[5:05] in the brain. And you you could take a

[5:07] scan a little like a Polaroid. you take

[5:08] a scan, you know, a month later, two

[5:11] months later, and you could make a

[5:12] time-lapse movie

[5:14] >> where you could see the propagation of

[5:16] the disease. So, it it starts in the

[5:18] memory system. It it attacks your

[5:20] language systems. Eventually, it attacks

[5:22] the the frontal parts of the brain

[5:24] involved in in planning and making

[5:27] decisions.

[5:28] >> So, that started to be used in drug

[5:30] trials. So people say well I I I'd like

[5:32] to see if a a treatment it could be a

[5:34] pharmacotherapy it could be a lifestyle

[5:36] uh intervention does that slow this

[5:40] relentless you know forest fire of

[5:43] change and so then we got into

[5:45] psychiatry. So, so Lily, just to tell

[5:47] you the story of of how it came about,

[5:49] they

[5:50] >> the drug company, the drug company,

[5:52] Lily, they were testing,

[5:52] >> not your friend Lily. [laughter]

[5:54] >> No, not my friend Lily. They they were

[5:57] developing uh drugs for schizophrenia.

[5:59] So, schizophrenia is very different. It

[6:01] it it's a mental illness where people

[6:04] hallucinate. They have a distorted

[6:06] perception of reality.

[6:08] >> They have so-called psychotic uh

[6:10] outbreaks.

[6:11] >> But there are some medications for it.

[6:13] Not not always successful. the

[6:15] moderately successful

[6:16] >> and with lots of side effects

[6:17] >> and with lots of side effects one of

[6:19] them being obesity which we we'll get

[6:21] into. So Lily said could you come up

[6:24] with a kind of brain imaging where we

[6:26] can see what the drug is doing because

[6:28] there was an older drug haloperidol it

[6:30] was an antisychotic and the results of

[6:33] that trial were that the medications

[6:35] seem to be slowing down the spread of

[6:39] schizophrenia in the brain and you say

[6:40] well what does it mean the spread of

[6:42] schizophrenia in the brain you could see

[6:43] physical changes in the brain tissue and

[6:46] if someone was scanned today and in 3

[6:48] months the people that were taking that

[6:50] particular medication

[6:52] would have a slower rate of tissue loss.

[6:54] So, you can begin to see how, you know,

[6:56] in Alzheimer's, where, you know, pretty

[6:58] much all scientists agree there's a

[6:59] degeneration of the brain. You could

[7:02] say, well, look, you're you're maybe 10%

[7:04] below the normal range for people of

[7:06] your age and and and background. And the

[7:09] drug trials started to use these

[7:11] measures. So, so Mark, you're very um

[7:15] pioneer in the area of biomarkers. So

[7:17] you can think of a brain image as a

[7:19] source of physical evidence of disease

[7:22] in the brain and there are plenty of

[7:23] others. I mean someone's not going to

[7:25] just use the image. There'll be clinical

[7:27] assessment. There might be blood marker

[7:29] assessment. There could be whole body

[7:31] physical assessment as as as you are

[7:33] doing. But the big picture of it all is

[7:35] that each of these is sort of an

[7:37] indicator either to rule out or rule in

[7:40] a disease and then even to see if an

[7:42] intervention is is successful.

[7:44] >> Yeah, this is really important. I think

[7:46] I think you know this is sort of novel

[7:48] the idea that you can see schizophrenia

[7:49] on a brain scan right I think what's

[7:52] [clears throat] really interesting to me

[7:53] is and I always say this the body has

[7:55] only so many ways of saying ouch

[7:59] >> and there are a lot of different things

[8:01] that happen but often the pathology is

[8:04] similar some of the manifestations are

[8:06] different right so yes inflammation

[8:09] oxidative stress mitochondrial

[8:11] dysfunction these are common phenomena

[8:13] across the spectrum of brain disorders

[8:15] metabolic dysfunction, the

[8:17] schizophrenia,

[8:19] these patients have inflamed brains.

[8:22] They have mitochondrial dysfunction in

[8:24] the brain. Uh there and there's

[8:26] different types of of causes. There's

[8:29] scientists, for example, at Harvard and

[8:31] other places doing metabolic psychiatry

[8:33] like Chris Palmer and putting people on

[8:35] keto diets and seeing schizophrenia

[8:37] resolve without medication. So that like

[8:39] makes me wonder sort of what you're

[8:41] looking at with these brain imaging. We

[8:43] can start to look at inflammation. We

[8:44] can start to look at mitochondrial

[8:46] function. We can start to look at

[8:48] >> you know metabolic function in the brain

[8:50] through various kinds of imaging.

[8:51] >> Absolutely. And I I think Mark that line

[8:53] of work of functional psychiatry,

[8:55] metabolic psychiatry, I I saw your

[8:58] interview with Ian Campbell with

[8:59] terrific interview. I think it's opening

[9:01] a door to therapy for patients that they

[9:04] they really haven't known about. I mean,

[9:06] if they've read your work, they know

[9:07] about it, but it's a new window on how

[9:09] to come into these disorders. And I I'll

[9:11] give you an example. So a lot of the

[9:14] radiologists look at brain disease um as

[9:17] if there's got to be some lesion or you

[9:20] know very obvious visible difference. So

[9:23] the techniques that tended to be used,

[9:25] you know, an MRI would say, look, in a

[9:26] in a stroke, we see a vascular event.

[9:29] That's what we're looking for. In

[9:30] Alzheimer's, we're going to use a PET

[9:32] scan. A PET scan can look at the buildup

[9:34] of amaloid, which is a a toxic protein

[9:36] in the brain. And maybe in Parkinson's,

[9:39] which as you know is a disorder of motor

[9:41] uh function where people have uh

[9:43] disturbances in their ability to walk or

[9:45] things like that, you look in the scan

[9:47] for for an atrophy of the motor systems

[9:49] of the basic. In neurology that kind of

[9:52] works. It's not the full picture but it

[9:54] kind of works. So you can say

[9:55] >> well it tells you about the structure

[9:56] not the function.

[9:57] >> Yes it deals absolutely. Now in

[9:59] psychiatry and I I think you hit the

[10:01] nail on the head when we were first

[10:02] publishing neuroiming studies of

[10:04] schizophrenia. There was a lot of

[10:06] skepticism and these were studies with

[10:08] maybe a dozen people and and and they

[10:11] said look it it looks like there's a

[10:12] change in the memory system the brain

[10:14] the hypoc campus but I think what we

[10:16] were missing and and and you said it

[10:17] Mark is that there are physical

[10:20] biological processes going on in the

[10:22] brain all the time some of them are

[10:24] functional they have to do with the

[10:25] activity and the synchrony of parts of

[10:27] the brain

[10:28] >> these are visible with newer imaging

[10:31] technologies um functional MRI is going

[10:34] to look at the blood flow or is your

[10:35] blood flow uh healthy? Is is your

[10:38] lifestyle enabling you to have the

[10:40] activity of the brain that that that you

[10:42] need? And I think part of the blindness

[10:45] to this was to treat uh the brain is

[10:48] something that we could assess with an

[10:49] X-ray, right?

[10:50] >> I mean, you know, an X-ray is is pretty

[10:52] good. If you break your leg, we're going

[10:54] to have an X-ray. But the brain is

[10:56] complicated. And uh if you were a pilot

[10:58] flying over Los Angeles and you were

[11:00] trying to figure out what was going on.

[11:01] I mean, the map isn't all there is to

[11:03] it. You want to have a look at the

[11:04] traffic flow and if is anything blocked

[11:06] or you know what's going on. Yeah.

[11:08] >> And I think these functional neuroiming

[11:11] methods

[11:12] functional MRI is one of them. Uh PET

[11:16] which is another type of brain imaging

[11:18] looks at the metabolic activity of the

[11:21] brain and the these are slightly less

[11:24] used and and certainly in psychiatry

[11:26] it's it absolutely it's it's opening a

[11:29] whole new window into the synchrony of

[11:31] the brain. I I've heard you interview

[11:33] people about the the so-called resting

[11:36] state networks of the brain. On an

[11:38] X-ray, you're not going to see any

[11:39] resting state networks. And what we see

[11:41] is that in

[11:42] >> an X-ray meaning an MRI or

[11:44] Exactly. But because those are those are

[11:47] really static images.

[11:48] >> They're static images. And that's the

[11:50] secret, isn't it? Because if someone is

[11:52] very depressed, it might not be evident

[11:56] in the physical structure of their

[11:58] brain. I mean, they could, and I I've

[12:00] heard your guests say this. I mean,

[12:01] someone uh I think Ian Campbell had a

[12:04] mental health condition. He went to a

[12:05] doctor. He had an MRI of the brain.

[12:08] Yeah.

[12:08] >> And they said, "Well, this this looks

[12:10] like you're fine. I mean, there's

[12:11] nothing any different than other

[12:13] people."

[12:13] >> Bipolar disease on an MRI.

[12:15] >> That's right. But what he is doing and

[12:17] what we're also doing in our Enigma

[12:19] project is we're trying to collect

[12:22] assessments of the brain that can look

[12:23] at the metabolism. Is your blood flow as

[12:27] it as it should be? And it's

[12:29] complicated. I mean, in in something

[12:30] like depression, maybe the interactions

[12:32] among the brain's networks are slow or

[12:36] they're sluggish and um you you you've

[12:39] done a lot of work on bipolar disease.

[12:42] So, at certain times of day, someone's

[12:44] brain networks might not be functioning

[12:46] exactly as a healthy person would. But

[12:49] with the right intervention, maybe a

[12:51] metabolic intervention, maybe a keto

[12:53] intervention, or even with classical

[12:55] pharmacology, which some people uh

[12:57] respond to, you could see a resetting,

[13:00] you know, they get back into the normal

[13:01] range. So the I feel like these two

[13:03] things go together. One is having a

[13:04] giant reference of what healthy people's

[13:07] brains do, which includes getting the

[13:10] right assessments.

[13:11] >> Yeah.

[13:11] >> And then in a sense, you know, making

[13:13] sure that the therapy is, as you know,

[13:16] is matched to the kind of illness that

[13:17] they have. So if they have a

[13:19] neurodeenerative disease, you know,

[13:21] something like Alzheimer's or

[13:22] Parkinson's, you know, there's

[13:24] particular treatments uh for that in

[13:26] pharmarmacology, there's also particular

[13:28] lifestyle interventions as you've

[13:30] pioneered for for their metabolism.

[13:32] >> On the other hand, if you have bipolar

[13:34] or major depression, these brain scans

[13:38] can give you a readout of whether or not

[13:40] the the intervention has been

[13:42] beneficial. Yeah.

[13:43] >> And I mean, that's it. It doesn't get

[13:45] more personal than that. you have a a

[13:46] physical picture of the result of the

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[16:10] >> In fact, even the whole distinction

[16:12] between neurology and psychiatry is sort

[16:14] of artificial. It's it's kind of a

[16:16] fallacy that they're separate because

[16:18] they're so connected. And and you know

[16:20] the what I find so fascinating is that

[16:23] and functional medicine is really good

[16:24] at describing this. What are the

[16:26] fundamental physiological processes that

[16:28] underly all disease? There's not that

[16:30] many of them. There's the microbiome.

[16:32] There's the immune function.

[16:34] >> There's your mitochondria. There's your,

[16:36] you know, communication systems and

[16:38] networks, hormones and so forth. There

[16:39] are transmitters. There's your

[16:40] circulatory vascular system. There's

[16:42] your detoxification system. There's your

[16:44] structural system down from to the

[16:46] membranes all the way to your

[16:48] biomechanical structures. Disturbances

[16:50] in these fundamental processes are

[16:52] what's driving all the downstream

[16:54] illnesses.

[16:54] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.

[16:55] >> And so when you look at the science and

[16:58] you know what's interesting is is as a

[16:59] functional medicine doctor like I'm not

[17:01] a quote specialist, but I I'm a super

[17:04] generalist. So I'm looking at everything

[17:06] all at once. It's like everything

[17:07] everywhere all at once like the movie.

[17:09] And so I'm like, "Oh, gee, if you look

[17:11] at the literature on depression, it's

[17:13] brain inflammation." Yes.

[17:14] >> And mitochondrial issues. If you look at

[17:16] the issue the the literature on

[17:18] Alzheimer's, it's the same thing. If you

[17:19] look at the literature on autism, it's

[17:21] the same thing. If you look at the

[17:22] literatur on schizophrenia, it's the

[17:23] same thing. So all these diseases are

[17:26] like like leaves on a tree and they have

[17:29] common roots and and often common

[17:32] therapies. Um, but the common therapies

[17:35] like aren't aren't like the same drug

[17:38] for the different diseases. They're like

[17:40] the fundamental lifestyle and causal

[17:42] corrective causal systems.

[17:44] >> And I think Mark, you have the

[17:45] perspective to see all of the

[17:46] connections among these things because

[17:48] if someone is an Alzheimer's doctor and

[17:51] they don't necessarily see patients with

[17:53] diabetes or with with other psychiatric

[17:55] conditions, they won't see the

[17:57] connections between the things that were

[17:59] helpful. And [clears throat] um you know

[18:00] some of the people that you've

[18:01] interviewed they said you know the

[18:03] dietary change that I uh you know did I

[18:07] noticed a big change and that wouldn't

[18:10] have been on the radar for people that

[18:12] were doing the you know conventional

[18:13] treatment.

[18:13] >> What's interesting to me is that you

[18:15] know like Suzanne Go has done a lot of

[18:17] brain imaging around autism and she's

[18:19] like oh there's a lot of mitochondrial

[18:20] dysfunction

[18:21] >> or you look at the same thing around

[18:23] schizophrenia. So the manifestations in

[18:26] an individual depend on their genetics,

[18:29] lots of factors, some of which we

[18:30] understand, some which we don't. But it,

[18:33] you know, like David Deutsch said in the

[18:34] fabric of reality, you can treat

[18:36] diseases even if you've never seen them

[18:38] before, if you follow the fundamental

[18:40] principles and be successful. And that's

[18:42] what I've done in functional medicine.

[18:43] I've treated diseases I've never seen

[18:44] before successfully because I just

[18:47] follow the fundamental laws of biology.

[18:49] And what we're what we're discovering

[18:50] here, and your work is so key to this,

[18:52] is we're discovering these fundamental

[18:54] principles of human biology that were

[18:56] hereto for never unpacked.

[18:58] >> Yes.

[18:58] >> And now they and now they're like, wait,

[19:00] you know, what does OCD or schizophrenia

[19:03] have to do with Alzheimer's a lot?

[19:05] >> Absolutely.

[19:06] >> And and so um

[19:07] >> I I think you're so right, right, Mark.

[19:09] I mean, the what one example and you've

[19:11] written about this is is cardiovascular

[19:13] health. So cardiovascular health and

[19:14] people are familiar with it. I I want to

[19:16] avoid a heart attack. I want to avoid a

[19:18] stroke. I'm going to have a better

[19:19] lifestyle, better diet.

[19:21] >> I I would kind of rephrase it as

[19:22] cardiometabolic health

[19:23] >> cardioabolic health. That's that that

[19:24] that's better. Now, a doctor who's

[19:27] treating Alzheimer's disease

[19:29] >> can say, "Oh, you know, the scan shows

[19:31] that you're you're not do not doing so

[19:33] well. There's amaloid plaques building

[19:36] up in the brain. The treatment for

[19:37] amaloid plaques is I mean, there's a

[19:39] vaccine that's experimental. Do you want

[19:40] to try that?" But you know Mark that at

[19:43] the same time you know 60% of people

[19:46] that are diagnosed with dementia h have

[19:48] cardioabolic uh issues and problems that

[19:52] to some extent are treatable. they may

[19:54] be very treatable. and even going over

[19:56] to mental health and and mental illness.

[19:58] Um we had a colleague Thomas Hayek and

[20:00] he treats a lot of people with

[20:01] schizophrenia and and and bipolar and he

[20:04] said do you know that the the

[20:06] cardioabolic health of these patients

[20:08] makes all the difference in the world

[20:10] and he said some of the treatments for

[20:12] schizophrenia as you know make you put

[20:14] on weight it's you're part part of this

[20:17] and he noticed

[20:18] >> it's ironic the very drugs that treat

[20:19] schizophrenia cause the very problem

[20:22] cause the very problem that causes

[20:23] schizophrenia which is mitochondrial

[20:25] >> dysfunction. Absolutely. and and he

[20:27] noticed by looking at brain imaging he

[20:29] said look I've seen the differences in

[20:31] people with schizophrenia on brain

[20:33] imaging this tissue loss

[20:35] >> but the people with high body mass index

[20:37] or the people with with with

[20:39] cardiamatabolic problems they have worse

[20:42] brain uh scans and he was very

[20:44] interested he said you know in enigma

[20:46] let's start collecting that data and I

[20:48] mean Mark you do this so so as well as

[20:50] the brain scan let's collect data on

[20:52] their uh cardioabolic uh markers in in

[20:55] blood And I mean you you knew this and

[20:58] in your work you pointed this out. In

[21:00] addition to whatever it is that is going

[21:02] on in their brain, their systemic their

[21:04] bodily health when that is treated it it

[21:07] it can make a whole world of difference

[21:09] to to to their symptoms. And this was

[21:11] true in depression. It was true in

[21:12] bipolar disease. It was true in

[21:14] schizophrenia. And just to be really

[21:15] precise, the amount of difference in

[21:18] their brain on a brain scan was far

[21:21] greater if there was metabolic disease

[21:23] or if there was there was cardiovascular

[21:24] disease. and and and he he he said you

[21:27] know this is revolutionary because we

[21:29] don't I mean we will certainly use

[21:30] antiscychotics but we don't see all the

[21:33] time this other path

[21:34] >> to health.

[21:35] >> Yeah.

[21:36] >> And I mean the patients are extremely

[21:39] interested in this as you know because

[21:40] it's it's another path

[21:42] >> and he said it's a little like a bank

[21:44] account. I mean, let's say my bank

[21:46] account is getting low,

[21:47] >> but there's plenty of ways that that

[21:49] bank account can be topped back up

[21:51] >> and we we we used to use this one and it

[21:53] worked for some people, didn't work so

[21:55] well in others. But if there's another

[21:57] route, as you know, to replenish or

[21:59] protect or bolster the other processes

[22:02] that are going on. I mean, that can make

[22:03] the world of difference.

[22:04] >> Yeah. And it's so true. And I think that

[22:06] we we really we really don't think about

[22:08] treating the body to treat the brain.

[22:10] And that was the subtitle of my book,

[22:12] Ultra Mind, which was fix your broken

[22:14] brain by

[22:15] >> Yes.

[22:15] >> healing your body first.

[22:16] >> Yes.

[22:17] >> Or something like that. I know.

[22:18] >> And you know this, but this is true in

[22:20] people that are sick and in true in

[22:22] people that are healthy. So So if you

[22:23] look in in these brain scans of people

[22:26] with different mental health conditions,

[22:28] the people that have an intervention

[22:30] that protects their cardioabolic health

[22:32] do do better. The scan can can show you

[22:35] it. So I mean we know that this is also

[22:37] relevant to you know everybody but

[22:40] particularly in these illnesses that we

[22:41] blamed on something else it seems to

[22:43] make the world of difference.

[22:44] >> Yeah. You know you studied the spectrum

[22:46] of psychiatric and neurologic

[22:48] conditions.

[22:49] >> What you know they have all these

[22:51] different labels. Yes.

[22:52] >> What's in common?

[22:54] >> Kind of interesting. So you mentioned

[22:55] the DSM5 which is the way that doctors

[22:58] categorize a person's mental health

[23:01] condition. and and and people have heard

[23:02] of things like, you know, major

[23:03] depression, bipolar disease,

[23:05] schizophrenia, the there's conditions

[23:07] like post-traumatic stress disorder,

[23:09] there's addiction, and they they can be

[23:11] grouped. So there so there's a lot of um

[23:14] mental health conditions with emotional

[23:17] blunting, lowered a effect. There's sort

[23:20] of a depressive aspect of this. And on

[23:22] on brain images, you very often see

[23:25] metabolic uh issues in the so-called

[23:28] lybic system. So the the the center of

[23:30] the brain, we often think of it as the

[23:32] gas pedal, the motivation, the

[23:34] >> reptilian part of your brain,

[23:35] >> the reptilian part of the brain.

[23:37] >> And this is a deep part of the brain

[23:39] that you could maybe think of as kind of

[23:41] the gas pedal, the motivator, what

[23:42] drives us to get out of bed in the

[23:44] morning. What what what motivates us?

[23:45] >> It's the the fight or flight or feeding

[23:47] kind

[23:48] >> Exactly.

[23:49] >> We call it the fours in medical school.

[23:51] Uh fight or flight, feeding, and

[23:53] reproduction.

[23:54] >> Yes. [laughter] Yes.

[23:55] >> The fours.

[23:56] >> Yes. Yes. So, so you can see this part

[23:58] of the brain on neuro imaging and a lot

[24:00] of the mental health conditions that are

[24:02] associated with poorer um your emotional

[24:05] flattening. I mean loss of uh motivation

[24:08] and valition and that would include uh

[24:10] depression. It would include in some

[24:12] cases anxiety the the depressive side of

[24:15] bipolar disease which is is very low

[24:17] emotion. You'll see on the brain scans

[24:20] that there is in some cases structural

[24:22] uh deficits there but also metabolic. I

[24:25] mean you you know glutamate for example

[24:27] I mean the the the neurotransmitter

[24:28] that's very important to brain

[24:31] excitation you'll see you know

[24:32] abnormalities in in in in glutamate too.

[24:35] So that is one group of disorders

[24:38] whether whether it's depression we

[24:40] sometimes call them internalizing

[24:41] disorders because they're they're

[24:42] disorders of thought they're emotional

[24:44] disorders in in insight us there's

[24:46] another group of psychiatric disorders

[24:48] that are associated with compulsion

[24:51] >> addiction substance OCD is one of them I

[24:54] mean the these are disorders and on

[24:56] brain scans you can often see these

[24:58] compulsive um even aggressive uh

[25:01] disorders associated with abnormalities

[25:04] in the frontal the frontal parts of the

[25:06] brain, the frontal loads of the brain.

[25:07] So these are sort of two systems.

[25:09] There's the there's the there's the gas

[25:11] pedal, the motivator, the primitive

[25:13] brain, and the frontal part of the

[25:14] brain. You'll often see damage, and the

[25:17] brain scans show this in people that are

[25:19] disinhibited that they might might be

[25:21] manic, they might have even ADHD where

[25:24] the the there's a sort of overactivity.

[25:27] And so these are it's a very simple

[25:29] classification of the disorders into

[25:31] ones where there's depression, blunted

[25:32] affect or the ones where there are

[25:34] compulsions, but you'll see

[25:36] similarities. So if someone um who's

[25:38] addicted to a substance of abuse, you

[25:41] know, alcohol or meth or opiates or

[25:44] cocaine, you'll often see damage and

[25:47] this is visible on the brain scan in the

[25:49] frontal loes of the brain. And the

[25:51] frontal loes are kind of like the

[25:53] brakes. So if if the lyic system is the

[25:55] gas pedal, the frontal lobe is a little

[25:56] bit like the brakes. So if you've

[25:57] damaged the brakes, there's often a, you

[25:59] know, an out of control aspect uh to to

[26:01] to behavior. So these patterns,

[26:05] they're they're not just physical

[26:07] pictures of how these brain diseases

[26:08] look. They're sort of becoming

[26:10] diagnostic tests as well. So if if if

[26:12] someone you wants to know if someone

[26:14] has, you know, anxiety or depression,

[26:16] >> are these not functional MRIs? These are

[26:18] >> they they're actually both. So, so, so

[26:20] to make a distinction, the the the

[26:21] functional MRIs are more useful in

[26:24] psychiatry because we tend to think of

[26:26] these are more disorders of behavior, of

[26:29] emotion. We may not see a physical loss

[26:32] of tissue, but like you said, Mark,

[26:34] there may be molecular changes, there

[26:36] may be physiological changes that we can

[26:39] um interrupt or or block or restore that

[26:43] can the readout on the functional MRI

[26:45] shows a benefit. So for people listening

[26:46] just kind of help distinguish between

[26:48] what is a regular brain MRI and what is

[26:50] a functional brain MRI.

[26:51] >> Okay. Okay. So so a regular brain MRI

[26:54] looks a bit like an X-ray and and the

[26:56] reason we don't use X-rays it's a fancy

[26:59] X-ray. The the principle of how it works

[27:01] is is a is a little different. So so an

[27:03] X-ray is radiation wherever this bone or

[27:06] or kind of fibrous tissue I mean you can

[27:09] see it if you've broken your bone you

[27:10] can see the problem.

[27:11] >> Yeah. For the brain, a lot of the issues

[27:13] are with the tissue, the nervous tissue,

[27:15] the the obviously brain's not made of

[27:18] the material that bones are made out of.

[27:20] So that's why we use MRI.

[27:22] >> And usually the types of things a

[27:24] structural MRI will pick up is if

[27:27] there's a tumor or a brain bleed, if

[27:29] someone has an aneurysm, you will see on

[27:31] the MRI that there's a physical

[27:33] structural disturbance of the brain.

[27:35] Mhm.

[27:36] >> Now, what happened was round about um 30

[27:39] years ago, there were people tinkering

[27:41] around with a an MRI and they said, you

[27:44] know, wouldn't it be interesting if this

[27:46] depended on how active the brain was? I

[27:48] mean, it's just a picture, but I mean,

[27:50] it is measuring physical process in the

[27:52] brain. And so they started to do

[27:54] experiments where somebody did a task in

[27:56] the scanner, like they they would tap

[27:58] their fingers or they they they they'd

[28:00] look at a flashing light and they found

[28:02] tiny differences in the oxygenation of

[28:05] the blood in the brain. And if you could

[28:08] subtract the the image when someone was

[28:11] active uh from the image when they were

[28:13] at rest, you could pick up and this

[28:15] really took off. And so, you know, in in

[28:18] the '90s, you'd get, you know, here's

[28:19] the map of language or here's the map of

[28:22] of planning or here's the map of of

[28:24] vision. And the brain is a landscape.

[28:26] It's like a city. I mean, there's places

[28:27] that control these different different

[28:29] tasks.

[28:30] >> So, you you're right. functional MRI is

[28:32] looking at the blood flow in the brain,

[28:35] which for many reasons can be disrupted

[28:37] either because the the blood vessels are

[28:39] blocked as in stroke or because there

[28:42] just simply isn't the metabolic supply

[28:44] uh to to drive the blood into these key

[28:47] brain regions.

[28:47] >> So basically, you're looking at the the

[28:49] the biological function of the brain

[28:51] versus just the structure of the brain.

[28:53] >> That's right. and and you can tell a lot

[28:55] about the metabolic function, what's

[28:57] working, what's not working, how it's

[28:59] working, and that tells you so much

[29:00] about the psychiatric diseases. So, it's

[29:03] a way of like using imaging for

[29:04] psychiatric illness.

[29:05] >> Absolutely.

[29:06] >> When you you've looked at so many

[29:07] brains, like what are the things that

[29:09] you're finding because you're not just

[29:10] looking at brains, you're also looking

[29:12] at lifestyle factors, you're looking at

[29:15] blood biomarkers. What What are the

[29:17] factors that seem to have the strongest

[29:18] influence over brain function, brain

[29:21] health over time? Because because you

[29:22] know we we all know okay I know for my

[29:24] heart I should not eat saturated fat

[29:26] although that's not right or I know I

[29:28] should exercise. I know I shouldn't

[29:29] smoke. I know these things are important

[29:31] for my heart health. But people go how

[29:33] do I take care of my brain?

[29:34] >> Yes. Well those same things as you would

[29:36] know Mark matter for the brain. And so

[29:38] so we when we when we looked at brain

[29:40] scans of people that were maybe obese

[29:42] overweight their brain would look eight

[29:45] years older. And you you know there's

[29:47] this um very interesting measure of of

[29:50] brain age. So you you you've talked

[29:52] about this concept in in your work. So

[29:54] so the brain age would be you know how

[29:56] how old does my brain look and not just

[29:58] an opinion. I mean a computer can

[30:00] identify the different features of the

[30:02] brain that that change as we age and

[30:03] give you a score.

[30:04] >> And what are those what are those

[30:05] measuring?

[30:06] >> Well they they can be based on a few

[30:09] different kinds of measures. So the ones

[30:11] based on brain MRI um are usually

[30:13] measuring the structures of the brain

[30:15] that change the most as we get older.

[30:17] And so you know you know kids brains

[30:20] grow they reach a peak in your 20s.

[30:22] Obviously there's a gentle loss of brain

[30:25] tissue throughout the brain. I mean even

[30:28] the shrinking of of the brain. So you

[30:29] can make a brain chart. So you you you

[30:32] can sort of say, you know, a

[30:34] pediatrician has a chart of how, you

[30:36] know, the height of a a child should be

[30:38] at different ages, and they're not all

[30:39] the same height. There's a there's a

[30:41] range. So what about if we were to make

[30:43] a chart of the size of the brain's

[30:46] memory system,

[30:47] >> like the hippocampus,

[30:48] >> like the hippocampus. And for a long

[30:50] time, even in drug trials, that that

[30:53] single measure was used. So if someone

[30:55] was designing a drug trial of an

[30:57] anti-dementia drug, it would be common

[30:59] to say, well, the primary endpoint of

[31:01] this trial is the person's memory

[31:03] function doesn't decline as much. I

[31:05] mean, that's the clinical endpoint, but

[31:06] we we're interested in a physical

[31:08] biomarker as well. So they would pick

[31:11] either the size of the hippocampus,

[31:13] which is little two teaspoon,

[31:17] it's like a seahorse. Over the course of

[31:19] time, I think people realized that, you

[31:20] know, just a single measure wasn't

[31:22] really gonna cut it. It's not gonna cut

[31:24] it. So, so even if you stay within a

[31:26] brain MRI, you can say well okay what

[31:29] are the other things that decline as we

[31:31] age you know may maybe the uh language

[31:34] area and the the visual area and other

[31:36] thing let's measure all of them. So what

[31:38] people do when they talk about brain age

[31:40] is they say well okay in a particular

[31:43] person let's measure them all and we're

[31:45] going to say where this person is on a

[31:47] chart like a percentile chart and if the

[31:50] hippocample volume is is kind of low

[31:52] maybe in the lower 5%. Let's look at

[31:54] some other things as well. Let's look at

[31:55] the the the white matter connectivity of

[31:58] the brain. So there's another type of

[32:00] brain scan diffusion image. if those

[32:03] neural pathways are intact. That's

[32:06] another measure. And you could even uh

[32:08] put in functional imaging. You say,

[32:10] well, the structure looks like there's a

[32:12] little bit of a problem. What what if we

[32:13] look at this other measure of blood

[32:15] flow? So, what'll happen is all of these

[32:18] individual biomarkers on their own, they

[32:21] can certainly flag an anomaly on their

[32:23] own, but imagine how great it would be

[32:25] if there was a holistic picture. I mean,

[32:27] even just with imaging, all these cool

[32:29] types of imaging. And that has led to

[32:31] the notion of for example brain age. And

[32:34] so so you could say well

[32:36] >> it's a composite number from a multiple

[32:38] different structural aspects of the

[32:39] brain.

[32:40] >> Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And you I mean

[32:42] you you know this Mark I mean just just

[32:44] for your listeners you could have a

[32:46] blood age. So you you could say look we

[32:48] can measure proteins in the blood. We

[32:51] know things like cholesterol and lipids

[32:53] are very important to healthy function.

[32:55] We want to look at hormones like

[32:57] estrogen and testosterone. maybe

[33:00] homocyine which is sometimes a sign of

[33:02] of bad uh metabolism. Let's make a score

[33:06] and there's several scores from from

[33:08] blood. I mean blood blood um I mean you

[33:10] know this you can get a blood panel

[33:12] readout uh and flag things that that are

[33:15] off but you can also have a summary as

[33:17] you know of of cardioabolic health. Are

[33:20] there any signs of Alzheimer's? Are

[33:22] there endocrine markers within range?

[33:24] And so I think as you've said the

[33:26] question the hormones as well

[33:28] >> nutrients hormones everything

[33:29] >> and the these are also evident in a

[33:32] brain scan. So people who had below

[33:35] normal estrogen and testosterone their

[33:38] brain aging was faster.

[33:39] >> And I mean that kind kind of makes

[33:41] sense. If if their thyroid their thyroid

[33:44] hormone was too low their brain aging

[33:45] was faster.

[33:46] >> Too lower like low normal or low

[33:48] >> out of out of range. And that's a good

[33:50] point. So there's some markers where

[33:52] they're too high when they're bad.

[33:54] something like homocyine. So if someone

[33:56] was taking folate or the B vitamins and

[33:59] it can lower your homocyine and these

[34:02] have been used as as you know in in in

[34:04] clinical trials. I mean there's been

[34:05] tests that have said look if somebody

[34:08] has some of these nutrients out of range

[34:11] there's not just a health benefit of

[34:13] fixing them but there's a physical

[34:16] measure in their brain scans that their

[34:18] brain is getting better.

[34:19] >> So brain brain is is a useful tool to

[34:21] sort of see how you're doing. I want to

[34:23] take a little digression around this

[34:25] because

[34:27] you know we often think that aging is a

[34:30] linear process like we just decline

[34:32] gradually over time and then we die.

[34:34] >> Sure.

[34:34] >> It doesn't turn out that that's true. I

[34:36] can tell you that from personal

[34:38] experience. I've aged backwards and

[34:40] forwards many times

[34:42] >> and uh not obviously willingly. I've had

[34:45] various conditions or illnesses that

[34:47] have knocked me back.

[34:48] >> Yes. But I I recently um went to Mexico

[34:51] where um there's a compound called

[34:53] ibeane which is legal.

[34:55] >> Yes.

[34:56] >> And I took it as a sort of as a way to

[34:59] enhance my neuroplasticity because I met

[35:01] with Governor Rick Perry

[35:04] >> who's was the 15-year governor of Texas

[35:06] and we had a dinner and he's like you

[35:08] know Mark I did this and my brain size

[35:11] increased on MRIs and that got my

[35:13] attention like oh okay well I'm 66.

[35:17] I'm like, I could use all the help I can

[35:18] get. And I was like, let me try it.

[35:21] Yeah.

[35:21] >> And I went down there and I and I was

[35:23] methodical. I did a brain imaging, a

[35:25] quantitative brain image because there's

[35:26] different kind of MRIs. You can do MRI,

[35:28] just a regular one, and then you can

[35:29] measure ones that look at specific brain

[35:31] structures and actually measure

[35:32] quantitatively the size of them. And I

[35:35] did a quantitative M before,

[35:38] a week after, and three months after.

[35:40] And my cortical thickness, which is sort

[35:42] of the the size of your brain

[35:44] essentially, like went up 8%.

[35:46] and my white matter lesions which is the

[35:49] level of inflammation which tends to get

[35:50] worse as you get aged aged is went

[35:53] [clears throat] down 22%.

[35:55] >> I'm curious if you've seen this kind of

[35:56] phenomena happen before yes and and what

[36:00] can you talk about that could explain

[36:02] that and what other things other

[36:04] lifestyle factors or other things drugs

[36:06] that you've seen that can help do this?

[36:08] >> I mean you know this Mark they they they

[36:09] make a huge difference. So there the

[36:11] there's dietary factors, there's

[36:13] physical lifestyle factors and I mean

[36:15] you you saw this with from your own

[36:17] experience and in the scan. It's just

[36:19] not regularly studied and and I think

[36:21] you know you're seeing

[36:22] >> by the way I didn't tell the

[36:23] neuroraiologist what I did. I just they

[36:25] had my scans and they were like what the

[36:26] heck's going on here?

[36:27] >> Yeah, absolutely. And there are so many

[36:29] lifestyle factors as well. So what one

[36:31] example that I mean Mark you've written

[36:33] about is sleep. So having good sleep and

[36:35] and sleep I mean we think of it you know

[36:37] the brain isn't doing anything at all. I

[36:39] mean, when you're asleep, that's that's

[36:41] just downtime. But on imaging,

[36:44] neuroiming, the images kind of had a

[36:46] surprise recently. There's something

[36:47] called the glimpmphatic system of the

[36:49] brain.

[36:50] >> And neuroscientists kind of knew a

[36:52] little bit about this, but they'd never

[36:53] really seen it in action. And what

[36:55] happens is when you're asleep, the

[36:59] there's these sort of waves almost like

[37:01] a car wash where the brain fluid is

[37:03] cleansing out toxic u products uh from

[37:07] the brain. And I mean this wouldn't be

[37:10] your thinking creates a lot of waste

[37:12] products.

[37:12] >> It creates a lot of wast you got to poop

[37:14] at the end of the day and your brain

[37:16] essentially has to get cleaned out at

[37:18] night.

[37:18] >> Absolutely.

[37:19] >> And we have a lymph system for cleaning

[37:21] out our waste from our body. But

[37:22] >> absolutely

[37:23] >> our brain has its own lymph system. We

[37:24] call it the lymphatic system.

[37:26] >> It and it I mean it comes back to what

[37:28] you said Mark. If you weren't thinking

[37:29] about that or weren't knowing that there

[37:31] was anything there, I mean you'd miss

[37:32] it. But what started to happen is people

[37:35] said,"Well, if if you have bad sleep,

[37:37] how how does that affect brain decline

[37:39] as you age?" I mean, something like

[37:41] Alzheimer's. And a lot of these things

[37:43] are circular. If someone starts to have

[37:44] Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, their sleep

[37:46] is going to be affected.

[37:48] >> And as you know, if you can fix their

[37:50] sleep or if you can fix the lifestyle

[37:51] factors, some of these other things come

[37:53] back

[37:54] >> into line. So, we were able to see in in

[37:56] in in these brain scans the effects of

[37:59] bad sleep. But until you think about the

[38:02] mechanism, this sort of detoxification

[38:04] of the brain that goes on during sleep,

[38:05] you don't realize how important it is.

[38:07] So in Enigma, our consortium, we have a

[38:10] sleep group and they look at insomnia. I

[38:12] mean, people that have a sleep disorder.

[38:14] Then they have people that, you know,

[38:15] would would benefit from better sleep.

[38:17] Maybe their job is very stressful and

[38:20] you see these biomarkers come back into

[38:22] line. I mean, as you know, I mean, you

[38:23] see see them restore. And so sleep is

[38:26] important. Um as you as you know you

[38:29] know good good quality diet is important

[38:32] and I think the important thing you said

[38:33] Mark you know your brain restores. I

[38:36] mean we we were looking with with brain

[38:38] imaging at uh people with eating

[38:40] disorders people with anorexia

[38:42] >> and it it had the greatest effect on the

[38:45] brain of any disorder that we've studied

[38:47] in psychiatry. So we studied depression

[38:49] yeah bipolis for eating disorders. Now

[38:52] you know that this is common sense. I

[38:54] mean the food is the fuel of of the

[38:56] mind. But when they were treated, when

[39:00] they went to the hospital, when their

[39:01] nutrition was back in balance, all of

[39:04] these brain systems were restored. And

[39:07] you one of the things that you're taught

[39:08] in medical school is the brain, you

[39:10] know, this the brain doesn't regenerate

[39:13] tissue. And you think, wait, wait, wait,

[39:14] wait a minute. The brain scan, like you

[39:16] said with iberain, the brain scan shows

[39:18] physical evidence for this. So I think

[39:20] you people shouldn't be so um

[39:24] pessimistic about the potential for for

[39:26] the brain to recover because it's just

[39:28] not not true.

[39:30] >> Yeah. And I think what your work is

[39:31] doing by kind of mapping the brain with

[39:33] imaging by mapping the biomarkers by

[39:35] looking at metabolic things and

[39:37] nutritional factors, hormonal factors

[39:39] and probably I don't know what else

[39:40] you're looking at which I'd like to

[39:42] unpack. you know, you're you're you're

[39:44] actually seeing how the brain can repair

[39:46] and and many of these conditions can be

[39:50] treated in a different way.

[39:51] >> Absolutely.

[39:51] >> Uh and you know, the thing that's so

[39:53] interesting to me is that you're seeing

[39:55] that there's like some distinct patterns

[39:58] in different conditions, but there's a

[39:59] lot of shared patterns. Can you talk

[40:01] about that?

[40:02] >> Yeah, absolutely. So,

[40:03] >> cross disease brain patterns as you

[40:04] describe them.

[40:05] >> Yeah. So what one what are the puzzles

[40:07] about um the brain's function is is very

[40:12] very complicated and the more imaging

[40:14] that's done I mean the more complexity

[40:16] you you start to see and it's it's like

[40:18] layers of detail. So one of one of the

[40:19] things that you see is that the brain

[40:22] has synchronized activity in so-called

[40:24] functional resting state networks and in

[40:27] something like depression in something

[40:29] where someone's brain activity is less

[40:32] even the switching between these

[40:34] networks is slowed it doesn't work and

[40:37] and we talked about the X-rays you would

[40:39] never see this on an X-ray it just has

[40:41] to do with the eb and flow if we were at

[40:43] the ocean side and we were watching the

[40:45] waves come in there'd be something about

[40:47] the dynamic balance

[40:48] uh of these things and we see this in

[40:51] depression, we see it in bipolar. The

[40:54] treatments are usually either

[40:56] pharmaceutical medication, you know,

[40:58] anti-depressants, SSRIs. Uh there's

[41:00] something called TMS, transcranial

[41:02] magnetic stimulation, which attempts to

[41:04] kind of reset the brain activity in a

[41:07] certain way. It's been very effective in

[41:09] um treatment resistant depression or

[41:12] neuro feedback. I I know you've talked

[41:14] Mark about this in in in other episodes

[41:16] where a person try so maybe a patient

[41:18] with chronic pain or a condition that

[41:20] that that is is re really severe they

[41:22] try and train their brain activity uh in

[41:25] a certain direction and then as you said

[41:28] there's the lifestyle metabolic and

[41:30] other sources of fuel to the brain and

[41:34] very very often you know some of these

[41:36] things are like turning the dial way up

[41:38] I mean a stimulation is going to have a

[41:39] very radical effect on on the brain in

[41:41] fact initially

[41:43] people wondered whether that was safe.

[41:45] But the ability to influence the your

[41:48] relative contribution of these networks

[41:50] is really important. And I'll give you

[41:52] an example. So the there's a network of

[41:54] the brain that's active when we're

[41:55] ruminating. So so if you if you don't

[41:58] feel good about something, maybe you

[42:00] just regret something.

[42:01] >> Yeah.

[42:01] >> You your brain kind of fixates on this.

[42:04] So what what what is happening in the

[42:05] brain when when you're doing well? I

[42:06] mean it's not we have a brain lesion.

[42:08] Mhm.

[42:09] >> It's that there's a certain kind or

[42:11] pattern of activity and and this has

[42:13] been discovered to be something called

[42:14] the default mode network. It's a network

[42:17] that's kind of active when we're not

[42:19] really doing anything. You could say,

[42:21] well, that that that could be useful,

[42:23] but it could become um

[42:25] >> our ego, right? It's like

[42:26] >> Yes. Yes. So one of the ways that the um

[42:30] treatments are being evaluated for for

[42:31] things like major depression and as we

[42:33] said there can be cognitive behavioral

[42:35] therapy seeing a psychiatrist there can

[42:37] be direct brain stimulation or neuro

[42:39] feedback which is kind of jolting the

[42:41] the brain's activity or lifestyle and

[42:44] cardioabolic approaches as well.

[42:46] >> Every one of these has a role to play in

[42:49] shifting that balance of brain activity

[42:52] back into action. But it's very

[42:54] complicated. I mean, as you said at the

[42:56] beginning, this isn't something that

[42:57] would be evident from a standard brain

[42:59] scan. It has to do with the eb and flow

[43:02] of activity. And I mean, there's even AI

[43:05] methods that are are trying to identify

[43:07] exactly what it is about the brain

[43:09] synchrony that's off and then tell us

[43:11] when it's back in in in balance.

[43:13] >> Yeah, I'm pretty consistent about the

[43:14] things I do for my health. But I also

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[43:17] work into my day, the more likely I am

[43:19] to stick with it. That's one reason I

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[45:16] video on YouTube and um link it to it in

[45:20] the podcast. But this was a patient I

[45:22] had long time ago who was a ADD patient,

[45:25] ADHD, really bad. He was 12 years old,

[45:28] really intractable, kicked out of

[45:29] kindergarten on rolin for years, you

[45:31] know, just a mess. And he had all these

[45:33] other behavioral issues. He had anxiety,

[45:36] he had insomnia, but he also had health

[45:38] issues like gut issues and asthma and

[45:41] skin issues and just gut issues. It's a

[45:44] mess. He's on seven different

[45:45] medications

[45:48] and I and I his mother came in and I

[45:50] treated him and I I basically gave him

[45:53] you know whole foods diet. He was eating

[45:55] only junk food, processed food was his

[45:57] only diet and so many nutritional

[45:59] deficiencies that I corrected with diet

[46:01] and supplements. His gut was a mess. I

[46:03] helped his gut restore. He had some

[46:05] lead. We kind of got rid of that. But

[46:07] even before we did that, I I basically

[46:09] just did diet and lifestyle and a few

[46:11] supplements. [snorts] He came back two

[46:14] months later and his mother brought his

[46:16] homework. That was before he saw me and

[46:20] then two months later and the original

[46:22] homework was illeible. He was 12 years

[46:24] old and it was what we call disgraphia

[46:26] which was a common you know kind of a

[46:29] symptom of people with brain dysfunction

[46:31] and these kids with learning

[46:32] disabilities or you know ADHD and so

[46:36] forth. They they have bad handwriting.

[46:38] It's basically bad handwriting like

[46:41] really bad. And he comes back two months

[46:43] later mom's bring his homework in and

[46:45] I'm like wow it was perfect perfect

[46:49] penmanship and I was like that was the

[46:51] aha moment for me. It's like what is

[46:53] going on in the brain? Like this wasn't

[46:55] a kid who had handwriting lessons for 2

[46:57] months. He had something go from chaotic

[47:00] and coherent and disynchronous in his

[47:02] brain to coherent and synchronized and

[47:04] organized.

[47:05] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.

[47:06] >> And I was like, "Oh my god, this is

[47:08] something that nobody's talking about."

[47:10] And that's what led me to write the book

[47:12] The Ultra Mind Solution, which was this

[47:14] case. And and I and you know, I wrote

[47:16] about Alzheimer's and autism and many

[47:18] other things that are kind of quote

[47:19] incurable

[47:21] >> that were curable. Yes. If you

[47:22] understood how the brain worked and how

[47:24] all these factors from diet, exercise,

[47:27] sleep, stress, environmental toxins, gut

[47:30] health, nutrient deficiencies, all these

[47:32] things play a role

[47:34] >> and they're the things and the things

[47:35] you're looking at. So like you're doing

[47:37] this massive study, you're getting

[47:38] massive NIH grants, you're looking at 47

[47:41] countries, you know, thousands of

[47:43] doctors and scientists and you know,

[47:45] just so much work and you're coming back

[47:47] to the same freaking conclusion, which

[47:49] is it's these fundamental

[47:51] >> Yes.

[47:52] things that matter and that we can

[47:53] modify that we have control over that

[47:56] can change not only the the function of

[47:59] our brain but the structure of our brain

[48:01] and I'm glad you said that Mark because

[48:02] it's so critical for mental health I

[48:04] mean whether someone's generally well or

[48:06] whether they have a mental health

[48:07] condition I mean you you've described

[48:09] examples where this has made the world

[48:11] of difference and I think one of the

[48:13] reasons that neuroscience sort of went

[48:15] in in the wrong way is everyone say well

[48:17] you know everything is neurotransmitters

[48:20] I if we could just get the level of the

[48:22] chemical right for dopamine or

[48:24] adrenaline or serotonin. And you know

[48:26] there there's some validity to that. I

[48:28] mean there could be an imbalance maybe a

[48:30] drug. I mean an example might be you

[48:32] know if you're anxious you could take a

[48:34] drug like propranol or beta blocker and

[48:36] you know you feel a bit better but

[48:39] that's missing the whole channel and

[48:42] stream of fuel that's going on in your

[48:44] brain your body. I mean, we we know this

[48:46] and and I I think I mean, you you've

[48:48] pioneered this line of of of thinking

[48:51] treating those things as well. The

[48:53] psychiatrists that we worked with and

[48:54] they all say the same thing,

[48:56] >> it it can make the world of difference

[48:58] when all of the common remedies have

[49:00] already been exhausted.

[49:01] >> Yeah. I mean, drugs don't really solve

[49:02] these problems. It's like you you're

[49:04] you're treating it's like you're you're

[49:06] treating

[49:08] >> uh you know, a problem with a a symptom

[49:11] suppression drug. And we we talk about

[49:13] this in functional medicine. We call it

[49:15] the TAC world. So we're standing on

[49:16] attack. It takes a lot of aspirin to

[49:17] make it feel better. Take out the TAC.

[49:19] Right? If you're have schizophrenia and

[49:22] your brain's inflamed,

[49:24] >> treat the source of the inflammation,

[49:26] don't give them antiscychotic, right?

[49:28] Change your diet. Get them on a keto

[49:29] diet. Whatever whatever the science is

[49:31] showing. and and and you're you're

[49:33] seeing, you know, your work is so

[49:35] important because it's you there's very

[49:36] few scientists as far as I can tell that

[49:38] that as I said at the beginning of this

[49:40] show that are not just reductionist.

[49:42] You're like zooming out and you're like

[49:43] what are the common patterns? What are

[49:45] the what is like looking at a like tons

[49:48] and tons and tons of data. You're like

[49:50] what are the what are the emerging

[49:51] patterns? And you're seeing these

[49:52] patterns and these common patterns

[49:54] across all kinds of neurologic and

[49:56] psychiatric diseases and there there are

[49:58] common treatments that really work.

[50:00] >> Absolutely. And I think Mark you I mean

[50:01] you you in your writing you you have

[50:03] this perspective where you see that

[50:04] something is effective across so many

[50:06] different conditions and it's because

[50:08] you're treating this systemic issue and

[50:11] and you know you're just looking at the

[50:12] brain you say well I I don't see

[50:14] anything wrong here and I mean can you

[50:16] imagine the times when people have been

[50:17] told their brain is fine but there's

[50:19] something else that could be the source

[50:21] of of of the malady. So I mean it it

[50:24] makes a whole lot of sense.

[50:24] >> Yeah. Treat the system not the symptoms.

[50:26] >> Yes. Right. Yes. Yeah. In terms of

[50:28] Enigma and the work you're doing, how

[50:30] much is determined by genetics versus

[50:32] lifestyle environment?

[50:33] >> So Mark, I mean both genetics and

[50:36] lifestyle are are usually important. And

[50:39] just to give some examples, it depends

[50:41] on the disease. So there there are some

[50:43] diseases of the brain that are genetic

[50:45] diseases. Not not many of them, but

[50:47] there's a few. So something like uh Down

[50:49] syndrome, fragile X syndrome, William

[50:52] syndrome. These are usually

[50:53] developmental abnormalities of the brain

[50:55] where sometimes somebody's DNA their

[50:58] genetic code has a a deletion and it it

[51:00] it doesn't develop in the way that we we

[51:02] would expect. [clears throat]

[51:03] >> Now you say what about the more common

[51:05] disorder you know Alzheimer's or

[51:07] Parkinson's or stroke.

[51:09] >> Now there's some puzzles there. So

[51:11] something like Alzheimer's disease

[51:13] there's one form of it that is genetic.

[51:15] So only 2% of patients have these

[51:17] precinel

[51:18] >> it's the presinolin gene. So so that's

[51:20] interesting in of itself. So if there

[51:22] can be a form of the disease that's

[51:24] genetic and you can point to a gene I

[51:26] mean that's already very interesting and

[51:27] there there as you said prescinoline the

[51:30] there's an amaloid precursor protein

[51:31] gene where someone has a really serious

[51:34] genetic anomaly in that area of their

[51:36] brain overproduces these amaloid plaques

[51:39] and that that can lead to dementia. But

[51:41] for the 98% of the other cases the genes

[51:46] sort of tilt the scales a little and

[51:49] they're not deterministic. It's not

[51:50] deterministic at all. And there are some

[51:53] important ones. So I I'll give you an

[51:54] example. So in Alzheimer's disease,

[51:57] there is a genetic variant that triples

[52:00] your risk and it's not rare. And so

[52:02] there's something called APOE, the apple

[52:04] protein APOE copies. Yeah,

[52:06] >> absolutely. And and around a quarter of

[52:09] us have one copy of this, threequarters

[52:11] don't have it. Around 6% of us have two

[52:14] copies. and the risk can be um nine to

[52:18] 10 times higher just from from this

[52:20] gene. Now, that doesn't mean that

[52:22] someone's going to get Alzheimer's if

[52:24] they have this gene. It sort of tilts

[52:25] the the scales

[52:27] >> and and a lot is beginning to be known

[52:29] about these genes. So, so one puzzling

[52:31] thing is um in people of African

[52:34] ancestry, the APOE doesn't matter as

[52:37] much. In people of Japanese and Chinese

[52:40] ancestry is really bad. And people of

[52:42] European ancestry somewhere in between.

[52:44] interesting and

[52:45] >> and it was originally uh sort of

[52:48] speculated that maybe in those countries

[52:50] other things uh determining health but

[52:53] more recently it's been found that even

[52:54] the gene sequence

[52:57] in East Africans there's a genetic

[52:59] variation that's near the APOE gene that

[53:02] seems to neutralize it

[53:03] >> protect it

[53:04] >> it seems to be protected now that's

[53:06] interesting because if you could somehow

[53:08] switch that on or introduce it I mean

[53:10] maybe there's a kind of direct genetic

[53:13] approach uh to doing this. And so when

[53:15] we started to look at the genomes of

[53:17] people that had Alzheimer's disease, we

[53:20] knew that this gene, I mean, number one,

[53:21] it's not deterministic at all. I mean,

[53:22] you can have people that have this gene

[53:24] and and they're fine, which is already

[53:26] interesting. There is a protective form

[53:29] of the APOE gene is a little bit rarer

[53:32] called APOE2.

[53:34] But the problem with that is they often

[53:36] have cardio metabolic problems. So they

[53:39] don't get the Alzheimer's, but they tend

[53:40] to get these these other problems. But

[53:42] going back to your question, there are

[53:44] genomeguided drug treatments today. So

[53:47] there there are treatments that are

[53:49] being developed that target these these

[53:51] genes. They won't necessarily target the

[53:53] root cause of all these other things.

[53:55] They just look at that that one gene.

[53:57] >> And I'll tell you a little bit how they

[53:58] work because it's kind of interesting

[53:59] how they work. So

[54:01] >> there's something called polygenic risk

[54:03] and you you know this you can look at

[54:04] somebody's genetic code.

[54:06] >> Yeah. You can add up all of these

[54:07] different genetic variants that matter.

[54:09] Yeah.

[54:10] >> For a particular disease and you can get

[54:12] a score.

[54:13] >> Yeah.

[54:14] >> And within these polygenic scores,

[54:16] there's different subtypes. So that

[54:18] there might be a particular set of genes

[54:19] that have to do with inflammation or

[54:22] amaloid or tow deposition these proteins

[54:24] in the brain or immunity. Maybe that has

[54:27] to do with immunity. So there there are

[54:29] there are actively approaches um one of

[54:32] them in our AI for AD project that

[54:35] essentially take um uh

[54:38] >> and that's a research project using AI

[54:40] to help understand

[54:41] >> Alzheimer's. We'll get into that in a

[54:43] minute. Yeah,

[54:43] >> absolutely. So so you could say well

[54:45] okay how do we influence these genes? I

[54:47] mean the gene looks like it's destiny as

[54:49] we know it isn't but can we influence

[54:51] what the gene is doing? So some of these

[54:53] genes produce protein products and there

[54:57] are known drugs there are known drugs

[54:59] that are already approved by the FDA

[55:01] >> that influence those off label uses.

[55:03] Yeah,

[55:03] >> that that's right. And some of them um I

[55:06] remember your interview with Ian

[55:07] Campbell, you talked about the

[55:08] repurposing of epilepsy drugs in bipolar

[55:12] disease. It was very interesting. I mean

[55:14] the again these drugs are not the whole

[55:16] story. They can help some people

[55:20] >> and so genomeguided drug repurposing has

[55:23] exactly that goal. It tries to find a

[55:26] drug that's already on the market. It's

[55:28] known through these databases of drug

[55:31] gene interactions to suppress a

[55:34] particular kind of uh um you know

[55:36] protein product. And the these are very

[55:38] interesting because if you could pair up

[55:40] a patient's genetic profile with a

[55:43] particular treatment that might be

[55:44] effective for them, it may be less

[55:46] effective for other

[55:47] >> this is personalized treatment. It's

[55:48] personalized precision medicine.

[55:50] >> It's precision medicine. And I I I

[55:52] started to look at the work. There's a a

[55:53] person called Kyunka Chun. She's a a

[55:56] neuroscientist in at Boston University

[55:58] and she um is amazing that she makes

[56:01] these genetically engineered stem cells

[56:03] that express a certain genotype, the

[56:06] genetic risk for Alzheimer's disease.

[56:09] >> And and this sounds like science

[56:11] fiction. It's kind of science fiction.

[56:12] They make these uh uh pluropotent stem

[56:15] cells that turn into brain cells called

[56:18] astroytes and neurons

[56:21] >> and they apply these treatments and see

[56:23] if it is effective at suppressing the

[56:25] gene products of the risk gene. So this

[56:27] is this is an active genomeguided drug

[56:31] repositioning.

[56:31] >> Really [clears throat] this is this is

[56:32] medicine by by thinking rather than just

[56:35] by reaction. This disease this drug it's

[56:38] like what is the pathway? What's the

[56:39] mechanism? What are the gene product?

[56:40] What are the proteins made? How do we

[56:42] modify those? What are the other things

[56:43] we can do? And it's just creative

[56:44] thinking about the biology of a human

[56:46] being that's not just so linear.

[56:48] >> It's fascinating. I mean, and just to be

[56:50] I want to jump to brain charts and

[56:52] diagnostic tools in a minute, but I I

[56:53] just want to sort of double click on the

[56:56] APOE4 gene. Yes. Conversation because

[56:58] it's people are scared. People don't

[56:59] want to test it. And we offer it at

[57:01] Function Health. We also offer PTA

[57:03] testing which is a biomarker that

[57:05] actually looks at progression of brain

[57:08] degeneration around Alzheimer's. Yeah.

[57:10] And it it's it's kind of like a

[57:11] cholesterol test. You can modify it by

[57:12] lifestyle. All right. So, let's talk

[57:14] about this concept that you've kind of

[57:15] developed called brain charts. And also,

[57:18] what kind of new diagnostic test are you

[57:20] actually discovering from this large

[57:22] scale brain imaging and genetic data and

[57:24] biomarker data?

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[59:31] >> So the first one, it focuses on the

[59:34] brain scan and we'll we'll talk in a

[59:36] minute about the blood markers as well,

[59:37] but the the ones that focus on the brain

[59:39] scan. So let's say you and I go and get

[59:41] a brain scan and you could get an MRI at

[59:43] most most hospitals. I mean just look

[59:45] >> now you can now you can get with

[59:46] function health. You can get a brain MRI

[59:48] and all the blood bar markers we're

[59:50] going to talk about.

[59:50] >> That's terrific. So the so the

[59:52] uninterpreted brain scan I mean we could

[59:54] ask a radiologist but I mean what can we

[59:55] do with a brain scan? So you can measure

[59:58] the components of the brain you know

[1:00:00] including ones that you know an

[1:00:01] automatic program can identify and this

[1:00:05] idea has been around for a little while.

[1:00:06] So there's a company called Neuroquand

[1:00:09] which I think you I mean this is an

[1:00:12] accepted method. I mean you will

[1:00:13] basically say let's run this on a huge

[1:00:17] range of people and you know people have

[1:00:19] very different backgrounds. they you

[1:00:21] want to make sure you include people

[1:00:22] from, you know, other countries, people

[1:00:24] that have different backgrounds, you

[1:00:26] know, people who are, you know, they

[1:00:28] live in a city, they live I mean, you

[1:00:29] got to have a very representative u uh

[1:00:32] population to make this chart. And then

[1:00:35] just like a growth chart for a kid where

[1:00:36] you say look you you seem like you're

[1:00:38] doing pretty well or the and the beauty

[1:00:41] of these charts and and you know this

[1:00:42] Mark is you can come back again after

[1:00:45] making a change and see whether or not

[1:00:48] your percentile or you know where you

[1:00:50] are on this chart has improved or or

[1:00:53] gotten worse. And I remember you know my

[1:00:56] first encounter of these things. My my

[1:00:57] daughter was born prematurely. She was

[1:00:59] born at 30 weeks

[1:01:00] >> and they would plot her weight or you

[1:01:03] know you don't say height for a baby the

[1:01:05] length of the baby and it would go back

[1:01:08] towards the the the healthy kids

[1:01:10] >> and in much the same way I mean like

[1:01:12] like you said with your experience with

[1:01:13] with iberain you can make a quantitative

[1:01:17] map of how you are doing relative uh to

[1:01:19] this chart and it can either be for for

[1:01:22] a um a particular brain measure it could

[1:01:25] be for your brain age which is again

[1:01:28] it's sort of

[1:01:29] overall summary of how old your your

[1:01:31] your brain looks.

[1:01:33] >> Now, does the brain scan tell you

[1:01:34] everything? No. So, the the brain scan

[1:01:36] is a tool.

[1:01:38] >> There are other um

[1:01:39] >> so the brain is based on these

[1:01:40] quantitative measures of the brain like

[1:01:42] with a neuroquant or

[1:01:43] >> with Exactly. And one of the reasons in

[1:01:46] Enigma we do this is that we have access

[1:01:48] to a really large number of brain scans.

[1:01:50] So obviously

[1:01:50] >> you can reinterpret it through the

[1:01:52] quantitative analysis.

[1:01:53] >> Yes. Yes. And and it helps to have a

[1:01:56] representative population. So if you

[1:01:57] were going to use these charts in India

[1:01:59] or Africa or Britain, they're different.

[1:02:01] I mean, you you want to make sure that

[1:02:03] you know comparable people are are going

[1:02:05] to be in there, you know, maybe men and

[1:02:07] women are a little different. You have

[1:02:08] to have a chart that's adapted. So So

[1:02:10] the more data I mean, you know this, the

[1:02:12] more that data that goes into compiling

[1:02:13] them, the more accurate uh they are.

[1:02:16] >> And so you know, with a 100,000 brain

[1:02:18] scans, you have a pretty accurate

[1:02:20] picture of what is going on.

[1:02:22] >> The other angle to this, as you know, is

[1:02:25] is the blood panels.

[1:02:27] So in research clinically it's a little

[1:02:30] bit different but in research there are

[1:02:32] panels that measure 11,000 proteins in

[1:02:35] in in the blood and we we proteomics

[1:02:37] >> proteomics and we you know we talked

[1:02:39] about measuring you know people know

[1:02:41] about cholesterol. You measure

[1:02:42] cholesterol in a standard blood test.

[1:02:44] You can look at inflammatory proteins.

[1:02:47] You can look at uh measures of um you

[1:02:49] know general hormonal or endocrine

[1:02:52] health. You can even look for telltain

[1:02:54] tale signs of dietary as you know

[1:02:56] dietary uh abnormalities that are

[1:02:59] fixable and and also toxins. I mean

[1:03:01] maybe someone was exposed to a toxin and

[1:03:04] you know you know this you know

[1:03:05] disorders like Parkinson's disease.

[1:03:08] >> It's very much toxin.

[1:03:09] >> It it is thought to be and this is a

[1:03:11] puzzle. It's thought to be you know

[1:03:13] people that were exposed to a lot of

[1:03:14] pesticides or a lot of hazardous

[1:03:16] chemicals have a higher incidence of

[1:03:18] Parkinson's disease. So these blood

[1:03:20] panels I mean they have multiple uses.

[1:03:23] One of the uses that uh is beginning to

[1:03:25] use AI and I mean you you know this Mark

[1:03:28] is you know we we talked about how on a

[1:03:30] brace there isn't a single measure that

[1:03:32] on its own is going to you know tell us

[1:03:34] the difference between you know recovery

[1:03:37] or not. I mean there's a there's a

[1:03:38] profile. So I really believe that within

[1:03:42] the next 5 to 10 years, we're going to

[1:03:43] be able to at least diagnose all of the

[1:03:46] major neurological and psychiatric

[1:03:48] conditions using a combination of scans,

[1:03:50] the brain scans we talked about

[1:03:52] >> and blood markers. Now the blood markers

[1:03:54] not going to tell you everything as you

[1:03:55] know. You know, if you have a stroke,

[1:03:57] >> maybe the scan is the thing to use. If

[1:03:59] you have a metabolic abnormality, maybe

[1:04:02] both or maybe the blood is going to be

[1:04:03] the thing to use. But what's what's

[1:04:05] amazing about it is this data

[1:04:07] accumulates and the references get

[1:04:09] better and the ability to of either you

[1:04:12] know AI or the charts or some way of

[1:04:16] combining this to to flag the anomalies.

[1:04:19] It not only finds people where these

[1:04:20] treatments are going to be useful but

[1:04:22] but measures the degree of improvement

[1:04:24] as well.

[1:04:24] >> It's really personalized sort of brain

[1:04:27] treatment effect psychiatry neurology

[1:04:29] that are combining brain imaging with

[1:04:32] blood biomarkers.

[1:04:33] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.

[1:04:34] >> That are looking for patterns that are

[1:04:37] unique among them.

[1:04:38] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.

[1:04:39] >> And so what are the suite of blood bar

[1:04:41] markers that you're looking at that are

[1:04:42] most important?

[1:04:43] >> So there's been a huge revolution in the

[1:04:45] last year in the dementia field. And so

[1:04:50] I mean you you know all of the relevant

[1:04:51] processes to to to dementia. There is a

[1:04:54] test for um amaloid beta beta amaloid.

[1:05:00] >> Exactly. And the FDA approved that. Now,

[1:05:02] as we've said, that is just one process

[1:05:06] and some people with dementia have that

[1:05:08] as the main thing that's going on, but

[1:05:09] plenty of other people may not have any

[1:05:11] of that going on at all. So, there there

[1:05:13] are other inflammatory markers. The also

[1:05:17] a measure of neuronal integrity

[1:05:19] neuropilament light is another measure.

[1:05:22] There's gle gal fibrillary

[1:05:25] gap which is looking at your um

[1:05:27] astroitic helper cells. How are they

[1:05:30] doing? And this [clears throat] idea

[1:05:31] that for each one of these channels of

[1:05:35] abnormality there could be a targeted

[1:05:37] treatment. I mean you you know this Mark

[1:05:39] I mean you've you've written about it

[1:05:40] for a long time. The dementia field is

[1:05:42] just coming around to this

[1:05:43] >> and PTA 217

[1:05:45] >> and PTA 217 we offer function health the

[1:05:47] AB440

[1:05:49] light chain p27.

[1:05:50] >> Absolutely.

[1:05:51] >> So Ed let me ask you Mark. So are these

[1:05:53] tests you would recommend for everyone

[1:05:56] who's elderly or just people that are

[1:05:59] showing signs of

[1:06:00] >> I think if you have a family history if

[1:06:02] you I think as a baseline at some point

[1:06:04] to get

[1:06:05] >> maybe when you're 50 or 60 I I I think

[1:06:07] we we don't really know

[1:06:09] >> like when should you check your

[1:06:10] cholesterol when you're five when you're

[1:06:12] 20 when you're 50 like

[1:06:14] >> you know we're seeing kids with

[1:06:16] abnormality we're you didn't mention it

[1:06:18] earlier but you know from brain imaging

[1:06:20] we can see changes in brain imaging 30

[1:06:22] years before you have Alzheimer's.

[1:06:24] >> Absolutely.

[1:06:24] >> So, something's going on and you can you

[1:06:26] can see the smoke signal.

[1:06:28] >> So, I think, you know, we're going to be

[1:06:29] learning more and more about these

[1:06:30] biomarkers, but I think there's there's

[1:06:32] a continuum.

[1:06:33] >> Yes.

[1:06:34] >> Of abnormalities from optimal to fully

[1:06:36] abnormal. And I think it's just like

[1:06:38] blood sugar. Yes.

[1:06:39] >> Our blood sugar cutoff is 100. But we

[1:06:41] know from the data that if blood sugar

[1:06:42] over 85, you're starting to see a linear

[1:06:44] increase in risk of cardiovascular

[1:06:46] disease. So, it's not it's not that

[1:06:48] normal is normal. Yeah, I think that's

[1:06:50] such a great way of looking at it

[1:06:51] because you let's take something like

[1:06:53] Parkinson's. A fraction of people with

[1:06:55] Parkinson's which is a movement disorder

[1:06:57] have a lot of vascular abnormalities in

[1:06:59] the brain. And like you said, I mean

[1:07:01] that that didn't happen today. I mean

[1:07:03] the the scan that shows vascular damage

[1:07:05] didn't happen on the day of the scan.

[1:07:07] >> And so there has to be a whole period of

[1:07:09] time maybe years maybe decades leading

[1:07:12] up to that. And I I think it's a very

[1:07:14] different perspective if someone had a

[1:07:15] scan that revealed that at an earlier

[1:07:17] time point. You know, maybe I mean some

[1:07:19] of the methods that you've been talking

[1:07:20] about could be proactive rather than

[1:07:22] just reactive to the

[1:07:23] >> there are you're talking about things

[1:07:25] like like Alzheimer's and dementia with

[1:07:27] these new biomarkers like neuroilament

[1:07:29] light chain a do 4240 P27 GFP

[1:07:35] >> those are those are emerging biomarkers

[1:07:36] and we're adding those in function or

[1:07:38] they're already in function.

[1:07:40] >> What about psychiatry?

[1:07:41] >> Yes. What are the bioarkers you're

[1:07:43] seeing? Because I I think there are a

[1:07:44] lot of biomarkers of mental health. I

[1:07:46] think it's a whole unexplored area that

[1:07:48] I've been checking for a long time and I

[1:07:50] think I'm curious to see what your

[1:07:52] research is showing.

[1:07:53] >> Yeah. I I I think many of the same

[1:07:55] systemic biomarkers that that you've

[1:07:57] been referring to, I mean, things to do

[1:07:59] with inflammation, you know, all of the

[1:08:01] metabolism. I mean, this is a whole new

[1:08:03] landscape that's ripe for for study. So,

[1:08:06] but I I'll tell you a story. So, one of

[1:08:07] my um lab managers, Chris Wheelen, he

[1:08:10] worked at Biogen and Fizer. And we were

[1:08:13] using a data set called the UK bioac.

[1:08:15] They they they assessed half a million

[1:08:17] people in the UK.

[1:08:18] >> And and and and Chris said what you

[1:08:20] said, why why didn't they collect blood

[1:08:22] readouts, proteomics, I mean, all of

[1:08:24] these things that we know are useful to

[1:08:27] do. And he managed to get a group of

[1:08:29] people together. It's called the PPP. I

[1:08:31] think it's the plasma proteomics

[1:08:32] project.

[1:08:33] >> And you [clears throat] can look at

[1:08:34] exactly what you said. I mean did the

[1:08:36] people that had a mental health issue

[1:08:39] who recovered or had a particular diet

[1:08:42] or lifestyle and I I I think a whole

[1:08:45] landscape of discoveries is going to be

[1:08:47] made using that kind of thing.

[1:08:48] >> So these are like proteomic metabolomic

[1:08:50] tests. They're not clinically used now.

[1:08:52] >> They're not used now. And I think you

[1:08:54] know some of them need to be developed.

[1:08:57] And so there could be as you've said a

[1:08:59] metabolic process or an inflammatory

[1:09:01] process uh good or bad uh immune process

[1:09:05] that is disregulated and as you know

[1:09:07] there's many many ways of nudging that

[1:09:08] back into the the zone it should be

[1:09:11] >> but by looking at this data you could

[1:09:13] even have AI I mean I'm sure you do this

[1:09:15] you even have AI find what is the

[1:09:18] signature of people that did well with

[1:09:20] this treatment what is the signature

[1:09:22] that did well with a different treatment

[1:09:24] and then is there a signature for just

[1:09:26] not great outcome and it's immensely

[1:09:29] useful for people doing drug trials or

[1:09:31] interventional trials because if if they

[1:09:33] have a plasma readout and and there's a

[1:09:35] pretty good chance that these people

[1:09:36] will do well or that these people will

[1:09:38] have a side effect you you know ahead of

[1:09:41] time you can kind of pre-screen and

[1:09:43] neuroiming is used for this if if

[1:09:45] there's a drug trial you can often have

[1:09:47] neuro imaging be kind of a gate it says

[1:09:49] look this this treatment is probably

[1:09:51] going to be good for you we think you

[1:09:53] know in in Alzheimer's also in in

[1:09:55] depression you So the this brain scan

[1:09:58] means that the probability is this is

[1:10:00] probably going to be the the right

[1:10:01] thing. So I think that's a great way

[1:10:03] forward.

[1:10:03] >> That's true. And I and I would say that

[1:10:05] you know there's going to be emerging

[1:10:06] set of diagnostics to come out of things

[1:10:08] that are not typically clinically

[1:10:09] measured now like metabolomics,

[1:10:11] proteomics, proteins and metabolites and

[1:10:13] and we're just sort of hitting the

[1:10:15] surface of that. microbiome so forth.

[1:10:17] But I think there are existing

[1:10:18] biomarkers and we include these at

[1:10:20] function health that that not

[1:10:22] necessarily like are directly correlated

[1:10:23] to mental illness but to play a role in

[1:10:25] mental health like vitamin D, like iron,

[1:10:28] like omega-3 fats, like heavy metals,

[1:10:30] like your insulin levels and metabolic

[1:10:32] health, like hormones, like thyroid,

[1:10:35] like sex hormones. All these things we

[1:10:37] can actually measure and we do

[1:10:39] homocyine, methamonic acid. These are

[1:10:40] these are measures of B vitamin status

[1:10:42] and these are all things that play a

[1:10:44] role in brain health, brain function and

[1:10:46] mood and cognitive function and all of

[1:10:47] it and and they're available to us and

[1:10:50] doctors aren't checking them. You know,

[1:10:51] you mentioned that that the database in

[1:10:52] the UK. There's an American study that's

[1:10:55] called NHANES, which is the National

[1:10:56] Health and Nutrition Examination Survey

[1:10:59] done every year on a set of people. It's

[1:11:00] about 5,000 people. 5,000 people measure

[1:11:03] about 40 blood tests. Function Health,

[1:11:05] we have over half a million people. We

[1:11:07] measure 160 blood tests a year in a

[1:11:09] longitudinal fashion that that look at

[1:11:12] much deeper levels of these these

[1:11:14] biomarkers that nobody's looking at. And

[1:11:16] I think, you know, we're discovering all

[1:11:17] sorts of things and that how sick our

[1:11:19] population is. And we have a health

[1:11:20] foreign population. These are people who

[1:11:21] are proactive, want to join, want to

[1:11:23] know about their health and they're not

[1:11:25] they're not the average American

[1:11:27] typically, although we we hit a broad

[1:11:28] demographic. They're people who are more

[1:11:30] proactive. So even within that

[1:11:31] population, we're seeing such massive

[1:11:33] amounts of problems that are fixable.

[1:11:35] >> And I think Mark, I mean, you collect

[1:11:37] the right data. So you have to ask the

[1:11:39] right question. You have to collect

[1:11:40] enough data. And

[1:11:42] >> if these panels hadn't been assessed,

[1:11:44] you'd miss this whole, you know,

[1:11:46] perspective on what's going on.

[1:11:48] collaborate because we're now doing

[1:11:49] we're doing a lot of imaging now. We're

[1:11:51] doing brain imaging. We have Ezra which

[1:11:52] measures brain MRIs, full body MRIs. We

[1:11:55] can do neuroquantum MRIs, brain age. And

[1:11:57] I think we're just beginning to kind of

[1:11:58] unpack all this

[1:12:00] >> and and and we want to come up with I

[1:12:01] think I I like you know like you can get

[1:12:03] a cardiovascular risk score. We should

[1:12:05] be able to get a brain health

[1:12:06] >> brain health score. I really should

[1:12:09] combine blood biomarkers, genetics, uh,

[1:12:12] and and imaging in one,

[1:12:14] >> you know, informed data set that we can

[1:12:17] watch over time and learn and it'll be a

[1:12:19] vehicle for scientific discovery and

[1:12:20] understanding. It's kind of an exciting

[1:12:22] time. And I I just want to finish by

[1:12:24] talking a little bit about your project

[1:12:25] called AI4 AI4 AD, which is means

[1:12:28] artificial intelligence for Alzheimer's

[1:12:30] disease.

[1:12:31] >> And and you know, we we've hit a dead

[1:12:33] end. I mean, we we've spent billions,

[1:12:35] literally billions of dollars of federal

[1:12:37] money on hundreds and hundreds of

[1:12:39] studies and have come up with bupkas as

[1:12:40] far as I'm concerned. Like just failure,

[1:12:42] failure, failure, failure. The, you

[1:12:44] know, great drugs now maybe extend the

[1:12:48] time to get in a nursing home by a few

[1:12:49] months. That's like a that's a win.

[1:12:51] That's ridiculous. So, we're we're we're

[1:12:53] basically failing and and and and we're

[1:12:55] not basically looking in the right

[1:12:56] place. The same is true with with this

[1:12:58] amaloid hypothesis. We're just barking

[1:13:00] up the wrong tree. I'm wondering, you

[1:13:02] know, with with your work with a AI4D,

[1:13:05] you're trying to look more broadly at

[1:13:07] genetics, brain scans, biomarkers, kind

[1:13:10] of not having such a a a prejudice view

[1:13:13] of what the causality is to be able to

[1:13:16] understand actually maybe we're

[1:13:18] rethinking about this wrong and how do

[1:13:19] we rethink this whole problem. So, so

[1:13:22] what are we learning about this and tell

[1:13:23] us about like the fact that

[1:13:25] >> you know Alzheimer's is a name of a

[1:13:27] syndrome but it there's many causes and

[1:13:29] there's many subtypes that you're

[1:13:31] finding and this is classic in

[1:13:32] functional medicine we like you just be

[1:13:34] because you know the name of the disease

[1:13:35] you don't know what's wrong with you

[1:13:36] it's just a label that we give to people

[1:13:38] who share a set of symptoms or pathology

[1:13:39] so it's medicine by pathology and

[1:13:41] geography not by mechanism or cause so

[1:13:44] so tell us about like briefly what what

[1:13:46] is this AI4D project what are you

[1:13:47] finding what are we learning

[1:13:49] >> well I I I think I mean you you you you

[1:13:51] saw the full perspective of this of this

[1:13:53] at a at a very early time point. I mean

[1:13:55] you you know the theory behind it and

[1:13:57] the evidence behind it and each of these

[1:13:59] new observations coming from neuroiming

[1:14:01] or from blood tests is sort of you're

[1:14:04] validating and proving this is true and

[1:14:05] you one of the points that you made on

[1:14:07] on subtyping dementia.

[1:14:10] >> So if somebody um has amaloid building

[1:14:13] up in their brain I mean that's one

[1:14:14] particular pathological process. But if

[1:14:17] you look at autopsy of people that have

[1:14:19] donated their brain to science, there's

[1:14:21] a number of things going on. I mean,

[1:14:23] some of these people don't have amaloid.

[1:14:24] They don't have these these deposits

[1:14:26] that that are the the target of a lot of

[1:14:27] the therapies. They they have other

[1:14:29] things. There's something called Louis

[1:14:30] bodies. There's a protein called sucle

[1:14:34] like a combo of Parkinson's and

[1:14:35] Alzheimer's.

[1:14:35] >> Yes. And there's another one that's very

[1:14:37] very very recently discovered TDP43. So

[1:14:40] there's something called late. It's a

[1:14:42] type of dementia that has a different

[1:14:44] pattern in the brain. So rather than the

[1:14:46] memory system being hit first,

[1:14:48] >> you know, the the frontal and other

[1:14:49] areas. Now on a brain scan, you can say,

[1:14:51] well, look, that that doesn't look like

[1:14:53] the same thing

[1:14:54] >> as the the amaloid treatments are able

[1:14:56] to treat. That looks like a different

[1:14:58] thing.

[1:14:59] >> So one of the ways that AI can help. I

[1:15:01] mean, AI is terrific at seeing patterns.

[1:15:03] Humans are pretty good at seeing

[1:15:05] patterns, but AI doesn't tire. It can

[1:15:07] look at millions of scans. I mean, it's

[1:15:09] it's got a lot of time on its hands. So

[1:15:11] you could say look could could you could

[1:15:13] you tell me if there's anything in the

[1:15:15] scan that would have found these Louis

[1:15:17] bodies or the sinucan or I mean you you

[1:15:20] you mentioned the the metabolic I mean

[1:15:22] also evident and and the AI can can pair

[1:15:26] these things in vast numbers. I mean

[1:15:28] vast numbers and and you know you you

[1:15:31] know if you go to an airport and you

[1:15:33] come back in and there's a a biometrics

[1:15:35] thing that tells it to freaks me out. It

[1:15:36] tells it to freaks me out. Well, the the

[1:15:38] AI that does that, I mean, it's using a

[1:15:41] lot of information. It doesn't just say

[1:15:43] how tall is this. I mean, there's a lot

[1:15:44] of information. So, in much the same way

[1:15:46] it can use the scan. Yeah.

[1:15:47] >> Pair it up with a pathology. Same same

[1:15:49] kind of technology.

[1:15:50] >> Yeah. So the reason I'm saying that

[1:15:52] that's very important is if the

[1:15:54] diagnosis is refined and personalized

[1:15:57] and subtype I mean you know this the the

[1:16:00] treatment that it's most sensible to

[1:16:02] offer a patient with that particular

[1:16:04] type of dementia may be very different

[1:16:05] than what they're being offered uh

[1:16:07] today. Yeah. If they have amaloid, sure.

[1:16:10] If they have a primarily vascular type

[1:16:13] of dementia, you know, the the cardiac,

[1:16:15] the metabolic, the lifestyle factors are

[1:16:17] going to be important. And you said

[1:16:18] this, even being proactive, if we know a

[1:16:21] certain fraction of people are likely uh

[1:16:24] to get these vascular diseases. I mean,

[1:16:26] you you have exactly the right approach

[1:16:28] and it's something they can do today.

[1:16:30] It's not something they're going to find

[1:16:31] out later only. I mean, they can look at

[1:16:33] this today and look at the readout.

[1:16:35] >> It's amazing. So this whole project is

[1:16:36] is using AI and large scale brain data,

[1:16:40] biomarker data to maybe genetic data,

[1:16:43] metabolomic data, proteomic data

[1:16:45] basically to look at how to diagnose and

[1:16:47] pro create prognosis and treat a broad

[1:16:50] range of neurologic and psychiatric

[1:16:51] conditions. It's really a new era. You

[1:16:54] know the joke in neurology is that the

[1:16:58] typical neur neurologist basic way of

[1:17:00] practicing is diagnose and adios.

[1:17:03] [laughter]

[1:17:05] Have you heard that?

[1:17:05] >> No, I haven't.

[1:17:06] >> You haven't heard that? I haven't heard

[1:17:07] that because there's nothing neurology.

[1:17:09] They're really good at diagnosing,

[1:17:11] >> but there's not a lot of tools in the

[1:17:12] toolkit. You have Parkinson's, you have

[1:17:13] Alzheimer's, you're kind of screwed.

[1:17:15] >> And so now we're in a different era.

[1:17:18] It's no longer diagnosed

[1:17:21] and and buenos. [laughter]

[1:17:23] >> It's good news. And you you have you

[1:17:26] have readouts that you can demonstrate

[1:17:28] the correction of many of these

[1:17:30] processes. I I think I think it's

[1:17:32] terrific. and and AI is helping us

[1:17:33] because you know it's so much data it's

[1:17:35] so much information it's so much noise

[1:17:37] like it's you know a human brain can't

[1:17:39] process all that and so I think this is

[1:17:41] why it's such an exciting moment in

[1:17:43] medicine and science because you know

[1:17:46] we've been in the dark ages like really

[1:17:48] dark ages I mean just just to paint a

[1:17:50] picture like you know the average doctor

[1:17:52] is still practicing like Norman

[1:17:54] Rockwell's doctor in the in the painting

[1:17:55] where you know just the stethoscope

[1:17:57] listening to different parts of the body

[1:17:58] maybe a physical exam okay we have some

[1:18:00] imaging a few blood tests like maybe 20

[1:18:02] 30 maybe if you do a little more. I

[1:18:05] mean, we're really not looking at the

[1:18:06] scope of what's going on. We have 20,000

[1:18:08] genes. We have 5 million variations in

[1:18:10] those genes. We have 6,000 metabolites.

[1:18:12] We have tens of thousands of proteins.

[1:18:13] We have a microbiome that's got 40

[1:18:16] trillion cells with [clears throat] 10

[1:18:18] times much genetic material as our own

[1:18:20] genes. We've got the metabolites from

[1:18:22] all that in our blood. We have all these

[1:18:25] biomarkers we can measure now that we

[1:18:26] couldn't measure before. just so much

[1:18:28] data and and any including me I I've

[1:18:31] seen more data than most doctors because

[1:18:33] I've done so much diagnostic testing on

[1:18:35] so many people over so many decades and

[1:18:37] I I have my own little AI pattern

[1:18:40] recognition thing but it's li very

[1:18:42] limited when it when it comes down to it

[1:18:44] in terms of of what AI can do and what

[1:18:47] it actually understands and I I think

[1:18:49] we're l just at the beginning and I

[1:18:51] think function health is is really

[1:18:53] leading the way I believe to disrupt all

[1:18:54] this thinking and to collect large data

[1:18:56] test. I mean, you you I I would imagine

[1:19:00] like to get the data that you've got is

[1:19:02] been billions of dollars of investment

[1:19:04] to get all this imaging and genetic

[1:19:06] material and all this,

[1:19:08] >> right? And yet, and yet people now are

[1:19:10] paying $365 and giving us the

[1:19:12] information and it's their data, but

[1:19:14] we're able to kind of go, okay, what can

[1:19:16] we learn that can help you? How do we

[1:19:18] use this data to help you learn about

[1:19:20] your body and what to do about it? It's

[1:19:21] so it's such an exciting moment. I I'm

[1:19:23] just I

[1:19:24] >> It's amazing. And I I think you're

[1:19:25] right, Mark. I mean you you know to

[1:19:27] correct to collect the correct data like

[1:19:29] you got to look at the right things like

[1:19:30] you could collect a lot of information

[1:19:32] that is tangential but if you look at

[1:19:35] these blood markers if you have a

[1:19:37] database that is so rich that the

[1:19:39] patterns that matter can be pulled out

[1:19:41] and then all of these different

[1:19:42] corrective actions I mean it it it's

[1:19:44] it's wonderful for scientists I mean

[1:19:46] it's a a really great idea to to be able

[1:19:48] to

[1:19:49] >> I I I believe that that people should

[1:19:51] should get their blood work and and

[1:19:52] that's why I created functional health

[1:19:54] and should get a detailed panel

[1:19:56] imaging is a little more controversial

[1:19:58] and you this is your life. What do you

[1:20:00] say to people who are saying, "Oh, you

[1:20:02] shouldn't bother looking and and it's a

[1:20:03] waste of money and time because I do

[1:20:06] think that it's valuable to get imaging

[1:20:07] on yourself."

[1:20:07] >> I think you're right, Mark. I mean,

[1:20:09] people who care about their health, who

[1:20:12] are healthy today, might want to look

[1:20:14] into their future health. What What is

[1:20:16] the downside? I mean, you you've said

[1:20:17] this before. You know, if you if you

[1:20:20] have a brain scan and it finds something

[1:20:22] that you can treat, I mean, why why not?

[1:20:24] I mean, that seems like a useful thing

[1:20:25] to do. I have had countless times when

[1:20:28] I've had a blood test and it's it's

[1:20:30] revealed something that is fixable for

[1:20:32] me. I mean, I I either, you know,

[1:20:33] vitamin is off or cholesterol was too

[1:20:36] high and now we're fixing it.

[1:20:38] >> And I I feel like, you know, no, nobody

[1:20:40] would claim that you should just go

[1:20:42] through life oblivious to all of these

[1:20:44] things that you could fix. somebody be

[1:20:46] no people have different points of view

[1:20:48] on this but at least you've made this

[1:20:51] landscape available to people who are

[1:20:53] interested in availing themselves of it

[1:20:55] and you you have positive proof that

[1:20:57] it's I mean there's testimonials of this

[1:20:59] >> it's true it's it's pretty it's pretty

[1:21:01] rewarding to see how many people's lives

[1:21:03] have been improved and saved just by

[1:21:04] knowing their data and I'm really proud

[1:21:07] to have co-ounded function health and be

[1:21:09] working with our team of 500 people to

[1:21:11] make this a reality for everybody and

[1:21:13] you know I hope we can collaborate in

[1:21:15] this. Uh I'm I'm excited to kind of

[1:21:17] share more what we're doing and thank

[1:21:18] you so much for your work and Enigma is

[1:21:20] such an incredible project. I I just

[1:21:22] sort of overwhelmed when I first learned

[1:21:23] about it and I think you know you're you

[1:21:25] know the fact that you're coming to the

[1:21:26] same conclusions that I did 20 years ago

[1:21:28] or 25 years ago is like so rewarding. So

[1:21:31] [laughter]

[1:21:31] >> well thank you Mark. Thank you for what

[1:21:33] you do. I appreciate it very much.

[1:21:35] >> Thanks so much. And people can learn

[1:21:36] more about your work where

[1:21:37] >> they can look up enigma. So if they put

[1:21:40] into the internet enigma and brain and

[1:21:42] there might be a disorder or disease

[1:21:43] that they're interested in that they'll

[1:21:44] find us.

[1:21:45] >> Enigma. So it's enigma. Just go enigma.

[1:21:48] What?

[1:21:48] >> Enig enigma. Well, enigma.ini because

[1:21:51] it's the Institute of Neuroiming and

[1:21:53] Informatics uh usc of Southern

[1:21:56] California.edu.

[1:21:58] >> Okay. We'll put that link in the show

[1:21:59] notes, but it's it's an incredible

[1:22:01] project. Uh thank you for doing it and

[1:22:02] thanks for all your work.

[1:22:04] >> Thanks Mark. Much appreciated. Thank

[1:22:05] you.

[1:22:06] >> Hey everybody, it's Dr. Mark here. I'm

[1:22:08] so excited to share that my new book is

[1:22:09] officially available for pre-order today

[1:22:12] after more than 30 years of practicing

[1:22:14] medicine and caring for tens of

[1:22:15] thousands of patients. I've written the

[1:22:17] book that brings everything together

[1:22:19] that I've learned about helping people

[1:22:21] get healthy and stay healthy as they

[1:22:23] age. It's called 100, what to do today

[1:22:25] to live 100 healthy years. It's a whole

[1:22:28] body guide to living 100 healthy years.

[1:22:30] It's grounded in a new understanding of

[1:22:32] how our bodies work. It's the new map of

[1:22:34] the body and inside I walk you through

[1:22:36] the seven core systems that drive your

[1:22:37] health from your gut and hormones to how

[1:22:40] your cells make energy and help you

[1:22:42] understand the signals your body's been

[1:22:43] sending you all along. Now, a lot of

[1:22:45] what's in the book I learned the hard

[1:22:47] way through my own body when I got sick.

[1:22:49] The medicine that I trained in did not

[1:22:52] have any of the answers I needed. So, I

[1:22:54] had to go looking for them myself. And

[1:22:56] that search became my life's work. This

[1:22:58] book brings together decades of my

[1:23:00] learning from my patients, from the

[1:23:02] scientific research and scouring that

[1:23:04] from the things I got wrong and the

[1:23:05] things I had to rethink along the way. I

[1:23:07] don't want you to have to struggle the

[1:23:09] way I did to find those answers. So much

[1:23:11] of our health is shaped by what happens

[1:23:13] outside your doctor's office. And I want

[1:23:14] you to feel confident knowing how to

[1:23:16] care for yourself every day. I put so

[1:23:18] much of myself into this book and I'm

[1:23:20] really excited to finally share it with

[1:23:21] you. It's really my life's work. It's my

[1:23:23] capstone of my career. I put everything

[1:23:24] I know. It's finally available for order

[1:23:26] today. Pre-order everywhere books are

[1:23:28] sold. Go get a copy. Please support me.

[1:23:30] And this is my life's work.

MH
ArtistMark Hyman

Mark Hyman, MD, is a family physician and Functional Medicine leader who founded The UltraWellness Center and the Food Fix Campaign, hosts The Dr. Hyman Show, and writes bestsellin…

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Brain-agingNeuroscienceMetabolic-healthSleep-brainCognitive-decline

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Brain age is a measure of your brain's biological aging based on brain imaging, which can differ significantly from your calendar age. Two 70-year-olds might have brain ages of 65 and 85 respectively, depending on metabolic health, sleep quality, nutrition, and lifestyle factors. Brain imaging can reveal whether your brain looks younger or older than your years, and this measure can predict cognitive decline and disease risk.
Yes. Thompson's research across 200,000 brain scans shows that brain tissue responds measurably to interventions including sleep optimization, metabolic support, anti-inflammatory nutrition, and cardiovascular exercise. Brain imaging can quantify these changes before and after lifestyle interventions, demonstrating that aging is not entirely fixed but can be slowed or partially reversed.
No. Carrying APOE4 increases statistical risk, but many carriers never develop Alzheimer's while some without the gene do. Thompson's data shows that environmental factors—sleep, metabolism, cardiovascular health—are primary determinants of whether genetic risk actually manifests. Genetic information can motivate protective action rather than signal an inevitable outcome.
The brain consumes roughly 20 percent of the body's energy and suffers first when metabolic dysfunction develops. Poor blood sugar regulation, reduced blood flow, and inflammation all damage brain tissue measurably. Thompson's research links metabolic disorders to accelerated brain aging and cognitive decline, making metabolic health a foundational component of brain protection.
During sleep, the brain's glymphatic system clears metabolic waste, including proteins like amyloid and tau that accumulate in Alzheimer's disease. Without adequate sleep, this cleanup fails, toxic proteins build up, and brain aging accelerates. Sleep disorders correlate with accelerated brain aging and higher dementia risk across Thompson's research.
Yes. Brain imaging provides objective, measurable evidence of whether medications or lifestyle interventions are changing brain tissue structure. By comparing sequential scans before and after treatment, researchers can quantify the rate of tissue loss or recovery—providing concrete data beyond subjective symptom reports.
Blood biomarkers reveal metabolic, inflammatory, and vascular markers that correlate with brain aging. AI can analyze brain scans alongside blood tests and genetic data to identify risk profiles and predict which interventions are most likely to help individual patients, moving toward precision medicine for cognitive health.

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