Transcript
[0:00] of of the mind.
[0:02] >> Welcome Paul to the podcast. So good to
[0:04] have you.
[0:04] >> Appreciate it.
[0:05] >> I'm sort of in awe of your work. [music]
[0:07] I think you know you're one of the few
[0:09] scientists out there who's connecting
[0:10] the dots in ways that most scientists
[0:13] don't because we're learn to be tunnel
[0:15] vision in science. We pick one topic. We
[0:18] have one trajectory we're working on our
[0:20] whole career. We're reductionist to a
[0:22] fault. Sure.
[0:24] >> And you've zoomed out and you created
[0:27] this extraordinary project called the
[0:29] Enigma Consortium which uh is a global
[0:32] brain mapping collaboration involving
[0:35] 2500 scientists across 47 countries. And
[0:38] you're looking at brain imaging of all
[0:40] sorts and biomarkers, blood biomarkers.
[0:44] And you're you're you're kind of doing
[0:47] something that's kind of heresy in
[0:49] medicine, which is looking at
[0:51] psychiatric diseases by looking at the
[0:54] brain. [laughter] The joke in medicine
[0:57] is that psychiatrists pay no attention
[0:59] to the brain and neurologists pay no
[1:01] attention to the mind.
[1:02] >> Yes. Yes.
[1:03] >> And you're paying attention to both the
[1:06] mind and the brain and how they relate
[1:08] and they're not the same exactly. and
[1:10] how the [clears throat] rest of your
[1:11] biology plays a role. And you're you're
[1:14] not just looking at the typical
[1:15] neurologic diseases like Alzheimer's and
[1:17] Parkinson's and so forth, but you're
[1:19] looking at psychiatric conditions uh
[1:21] which typically have been just diseases
[1:24] of description. You get these symptoms,
[1:26] you get this diagnosis. It's basically
[1:28] the DSM5, which is a we all call the
[1:30] diagnostic and statistical manual number
[1:32] five. There'll be a number six soon. I
[1:35] think they used to have visitation from
[1:36] the gods and things like that, but I
[1:38] mean they've updated it, [laughter] but
[1:40] it's not any better than that. Honestly,
[1:42] my opin opinion, I asked Thomas Insul,
[1:44] who you probably know is the head of the
[1:45] NIH for uh the National Institute of
[1:47] Mental Health for a while, and I said,
[1:49] Thomas, what what do you think of the
[1:50] DSM5? He's like, well, he said it has
[1:52] 100% accuracy, but 0% validity. I
[1:55] [laughter] mean, it's very accurate in
[1:57] describing and putting people into
[1:58] groups and categories according to their
[1:59] symptoms, but not at all about
[2:01] understanding the cause or mechanisms of
[2:02] the disease. And for the first time, I
[2:04] think I don't I don't know too many
[2:05] people doing what you're doing, which is
[2:07] you're you're looking at the biology of
[2:10] mental illness in a way that's not just
[2:12] it's a chemical imbalance and take
[2:13] serotonin reuptake inhibitors, but
[2:15] really a much more nuanced view of how
[2:17] the structure and function of the brain
[2:19] work together and and how to how that
[2:21] can help us understand these conditions,
[2:23] how it can in start to kind of bring
[2:26] about novel treatments that we haven't
[2:28] thought about before, make discoveries
[2:29] we never thought of before. I don't know
[2:31] how you got into this, but like you you
[2:33] were kind of a Greek and Latin major at
[2:34] Oxford, and I don't even I don't even
[2:37] know where you go with that. I'm
[2:38] becoming [laughter] a classics
[2:39] professor. What took you down this road,
[2:41] and how did you get this aha that we
[2:42] should be looking at things a bit
[2:44] differently?
[2:44] >> Well, first of all, M, I really
[2:46] appreciate your invitation to be to be
[2:47] here today. I admired your work for
[2:49] many, many years, and it's it's fun to
[2:50] be
[2:51] >> I was hoping you say yes. I didn't even
[2:52] know you was. I was like, I hope he
[2:53] comes on this podcast. He's a he's a
[2:54] real scientist. I'm just kind of a
[2:56] quacky doctor.
[2:57] >> You you you do incredible work, Mark.
[2:59] So, I mean, just first of all, on the
[3:01] classics, if if we we were joking about
[3:03] this, if we meet any ancient Greeks,
[3:04] we're going to be fine. We'll be able to
[3:06] look after them. But I I grew up in
[3:07] England, as you can probably tell from
[3:09] my funny accent,
[3:10] >> and I had the chance to work at UCLA
[3:13] during my PhD in my 20s here in in Los
[3:15] Angeles,
[3:16] >> and they had a brain mapping center, a
[3:19] brain mapping center. And so what you
[3:21] could do at UCLA and now this is
[3:23] available across the world is you could
[3:24] have a three-dimensional picture of the
[3:27] brain not just what it looks like but
[3:29] the the activity of the brain what is
[3:32] the molecular uh content of the brain is
[3:35] the activity in the normal range is it
[3:38] depressed like in depression is it
[3:40] deteriorating like in dementia so I just
[3:42] got absolutely fascinated by this and I
[3:45] mean you know Mark in your own work you
[3:46] can use these technologies to give you
[3:49] insight into whether someone is doing
[3:51] okay, whether they need some uh
[3:53] medication or lifestyle intervention or
[3:56] for that matter in a drug trial. You can
[3:57] use these as a readout of whether or not
[3:59] the medication is is working.
[4:01] >> It's incredible. You know, and you know,
[4:03] you have been part of this consortium
[4:06] and collaboration across 47 countries,
[4:08] done 200,000 brain scans, which is a
[4:11] staggering number of brain scans, over
[4:12] 30 different brain disorders. What are
[4:15] you seeing? What are the patterns that
[4:16] are emerging? So I can tell you a little
[4:18] bit about the different brain diseases
[4:19] and and I know your listeners are going
[4:21] to be very familiar with with some of
[4:22] these perhaps less so with others. So in
[4:25] old age a lot of people get dementia and
[4:28] one of the kinds of dementia Alzheimer's
[4:30] disease is is a huge problem and so as
[4:34] you know maybe among 70 year olds maybe
[4:36] 5% of them have this but every five
[4:38] years after 70 years of age its
[4:41] incidence doubles. So that that's that's
[4:43] pretty incredible. I mean at 75 10% of
[4:45] people at 80 years of age 20% of people.
[4:48] So this is this looming epidemic hazard
[4:51] that that is coming.
[4:52] >> Yeah.
[4:53] >> So one of the early results with brain
[4:55] imaging that really showed its its value
[4:58] was that if you scan people as they
[5:00] progressed with Alzheimer's disease,
[5:02] there was this wildfire of tissue loss
[5:05] in the brain. And you you could take a
[5:07] scan a little like a Polaroid. you take
[5:08] a scan, you know, a month later, two
[5:11] months later, and you could make a
[5:12] time-lapse movie
[5:14] >> where you could see the propagation of
[5:16] the disease. So, it it starts in the
[5:18] memory system. It it attacks your
[5:20] language systems. Eventually, it attacks
[5:22] the the frontal parts of the brain
[5:24] involved in in planning and making
[5:27] decisions.
[5:28] >> So, that started to be used in drug
[5:30] trials. So people say well I I I'd like
[5:32] to see if a a treatment it could be a
[5:34] pharmacotherapy it could be a lifestyle
[5:36] uh intervention does that slow this
[5:40] relentless you know forest fire of
[5:43] change and so then we got into
[5:45] psychiatry. So, so Lily, just to tell
[5:47] you the story of of how it came about,
[5:49] they
[5:50] >> the drug company, the drug company,
[5:52] Lily, they were testing,
[5:52] >> not your friend Lily. [laughter]
[5:54] >> No, not my friend Lily. They they were
[5:57] developing uh drugs for schizophrenia.
[5:59] So, schizophrenia is very different. It
[6:01] it it's a mental illness where people
[6:04] hallucinate. They have a distorted
[6:06] perception of reality.
[6:08] >> They have so-called psychotic uh
[6:10] outbreaks.
[6:11] >> But there are some medications for it.
[6:13] Not not always successful. the
[6:15] moderately successful
[6:16] >> and with lots of side effects
[6:17] >> and with lots of side effects one of
[6:19] them being obesity which we we'll get
[6:21] into. So Lily said could you come up
[6:24] with a kind of brain imaging where we
[6:26] can see what the drug is doing because
[6:28] there was an older drug haloperidol it
[6:30] was an antisychotic and the results of
[6:33] that trial were that the medications
[6:35] seem to be slowing down the spread of
[6:39] schizophrenia in the brain and you say
[6:40] well what does it mean the spread of
[6:42] schizophrenia in the brain you could see
[6:43] physical changes in the brain tissue and
[6:46] if someone was scanned today and in 3
[6:48] months the people that were taking that
[6:50] particular medication
[6:52] would have a slower rate of tissue loss.
[6:54] So, you can begin to see how, you know,
[6:56] in Alzheimer's, where, you know, pretty
[6:58] much all scientists agree there's a
[6:59] degeneration of the brain. You could
[7:02] say, well, look, you're you're maybe 10%
[7:04] below the normal range for people of
[7:06] your age and and and background. And the
[7:09] drug trials started to use these
[7:11] measures. So, so Mark, you're very um
[7:15] pioneer in the area of biomarkers. So
[7:17] you can think of a brain image as a
[7:19] source of physical evidence of disease
[7:22] in the brain and there are plenty of
[7:23] others. I mean someone's not going to
[7:25] just use the image. There'll be clinical
[7:27] assessment. There might be blood marker
[7:29] assessment. There could be whole body
[7:31] physical assessment as as as you are
[7:33] doing. But the big picture of it all is
[7:35] that each of these is sort of an
[7:37] indicator either to rule out or rule in
[7:40] a disease and then even to see if an
[7:42] intervention is is successful.
[7:44] >> Yeah, this is really important. I think
[7:46] I think you know this is sort of novel
[7:48] the idea that you can see schizophrenia
[7:49] on a brain scan right I think what's
[7:52] [clears throat] really interesting to me
[7:53] is and I always say this the body has
[7:55] only so many ways of saying ouch
[7:59] >> and there are a lot of different things
[8:01] that happen but often the pathology is
[8:04] similar some of the manifestations are
[8:06] different right so yes inflammation
[8:09] oxidative stress mitochondrial
[8:11] dysfunction these are common phenomena
[8:13] across the spectrum of brain disorders
[8:15] metabolic dysfunction, the
[8:17] schizophrenia,
[8:19] these patients have inflamed brains.
[8:22] They have mitochondrial dysfunction in
[8:24] the brain. Uh there and there's
[8:26] different types of of causes. There's
[8:29] scientists, for example, at Harvard and
[8:31] other places doing metabolic psychiatry
[8:33] like Chris Palmer and putting people on
[8:35] keto diets and seeing schizophrenia
[8:37] resolve without medication. So that like
[8:39] makes me wonder sort of what you're
[8:41] looking at with these brain imaging. We
[8:43] can start to look at inflammation. We
[8:44] can start to look at mitochondrial
[8:46] function. We can start to look at
[8:48] >> you know metabolic function in the brain
[8:50] through various kinds of imaging.
[8:51] >> Absolutely. And I I think Mark that line
[8:53] of work of functional psychiatry,
[8:55] metabolic psychiatry, I I saw your
[8:58] interview with Ian Campbell with
[8:59] terrific interview. I think it's opening
[9:01] a door to therapy for patients that they
[9:04] they really haven't known about. I mean,
[9:06] if they've read your work, they know
[9:07] about it, but it's a new window on how
[9:09] to come into these disorders. And I I'll
[9:11] give you an example. So a lot of the
[9:14] radiologists look at brain disease um as
[9:17] if there's got to be some lesion or you
[9:20] know very obvious visible difference. So
[9:23] the techniques that tended to be used,
[9:25] you know, an MRI would say, look, in a
[9:26] in a stroke, we see a vascular event.
[9:29] That's what we're looking for. In
[9:30] Alzheimer's, we're going to use a PET
[9:32] scan. A PET scan can look at the buildup
[9:34] of amaloid, which is a a toxic protein
[9:36] in the brain. And maybe in Parkinson's,
[9:39] which as you know is a disorder of motor
[9:41] uh function where people have uh
[9:43] disturbances in their ability to walk or
[9:45] things like that, you look in the scan
[9:47] for for an atrophy of the motor systems
[9:49] of the basic. In neurology that kind of
[9:52] works. It's not the full picture but it
[9:54] kind of works. So you can say
[9:55] >> well it tells you about the structure
[9:56] not the function.
[9:57] >> Yes it deals absolutely. Now in
[9:59] psychiatry and I I think you hit the
[10:01] nail on the head when we were first
[10:02] publishing neuroiming studies of
[10:04] schizophrenia. There was a lot of
[10:06] skepticism and these were studies with
[10:08] maybe a dozen people and and and they
[10:11] said look it it looks like there's a
[10:12] change in the memory system the brain
[10:14] the hypoc campus but I think what we
[10:16] were missing and and and you said it
[10:17] Mark is that there are physical
[10:20] biological processes going on in the
[10:22] brain all the time some of them are
[10:24] functional they have to do with the
[10:25] activity and the synchrony of parts of
[10:27] the brain
[10:28] >> these are visible with newer imaging
[10:31] technologies um functional MRI is going
[10:34] to look at the blood flow or is your
[10:35] blood flow uh healthy? Is is your
[10:38] lifestyle enabling you to have the
[10:40] activity of the brain that that that you
[10:42] need? And I think part of the blindness
[10:45] to this was to treat uh the brain is
[10:48] something that we could assess with an
[10:49] X-ray, right?
[10:50] >> I mean, you know, an X-ray is is pretty
[10:52] good. If you break your leg, we're going
[10:54] to have an X-ray. But the brain is
[10:56] complicated. And uh if you were a pilot
[10:58] flying over Los Angeles and you were
[11:00] trying to figure out what was going on.
[11:01] I mean, the map isn't all there is to
[11:03] it. You want to have a look at the
[11:04] traffic flow and if is anything blocked
[11:06] or you know what's going on. Yeah.
[11:08] >> And I think these functional neuroiming
[11:11] methods
[11:12] functional MRI is one of them. Uh PET
[11:16] which is another type of brain imaging
[11:18] looks at the metabolic activity of the
[11:21] brain and the these are slightly less
[11:24] used and and certainly in psychiatry
[11:26] it's it absolutely it's it's opening a
[11:29] whole new window into the synchrony of
[11:31] the brain. I I've heard you interview
[11:33] people about the the so-called resting
[11:36] state networks of the brain. On an
[11:38] X-ray, you're not going to see any
[11:39] resting state networks. And what we see
[11:41] is that in
[11:42] >> an X-ray meaning an MRI or
[11:44] Exactly. But because those are those are
[11:47] really static images.
[11:48] >> They're static images. And that's the
[11:50] secret, isn't it? Because if someone is
[11:52] very depressed, it might not be evident
[11:56] in the physical structure of their
[11:58] brain. I mean, they could, and I I've
[12:00] heard your guests say this. I mean,
[12:01] someone uh I think Ian Campbell had a
[12:04] mental health condition. He went to a
[12:05] doctor. He had an MRI of the brain.
[12:08] Yeah.
[12:08] >> And they said, "Well, this this looks
[12:10] like you're fine. I mean, there's
[12:11] nothing any different than other
[12:13] people."
[12:13] >> Bipolar disease on an MRI.
[12:15] >> That's right. But what he is doing and
[12:17] what we're also doing in our Enigma
[12:19] project is we're trying to collect
[12:22] assessments of the brain that can look
[12:23] at the metabolism. Is your blood flow as
[12:27] it as it should be? And it's
[12:29] complicated. I mean, in in something
[12:30] like depression, maybe the interactions
[12:32] among the brain's networks are slow or
[12:36] they're sluggish and um you you you've
[12:39] done a lot of work on bipolar disease.
[12:42] So, at certain times of day, someone's
[12:44] brain networks might not be functioning
[12:46] exactly as a healthy person would. But
[12:49] with the right intervention, maybe a
[12:51] metabolic intervention, maybe a keto
[12:53] intervention, or even with classical
[12:55] pharmacology, which some people uh
[12:57] respond to, you could see a resetting,
[13:00] you know, they get back into the normal
[13:01] range. So the I feel like these two
[13:03] things go together. One is having a
[13:04] giant reference of what healthy people's
[13:07] brains do, which includes getting the
[13:10] right assessments.
[13:11] >> Yeah.
[13:11] >> And then in a sense, you know, making
[13:13] sure that the therapy is, as you know,
[13:16] is matched to the kind of illness that
[13:17] they have. So if they have a
[13:19] neurodeenerative disease, you know,
[13:21] something like Alzheimer's or
[13:22] Parkinson's, you know, there's
[13:24] particular treatments uh for that in
[13:26] pharmarmacology, there's also particular
[13:28] lifestyle interventions as you've
[13:30] pioneered for for their metabolism.
[13:32] >> On the other hand, if you have bipolar
[13:34] or major depression, these brain scans
[13:38] can give you a readout of whether or not
[13:40] the the intervention has been
[13:42] beneficial. Yeah.
[13:43] >> And I mean, that's it. It doesn't get
[13:45] more personal than that. you have a a
[13:46] physical picture of the result of the
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[16:10] >> In fact, even the whole distinction
[16:12] between neurology and psychiatry is sort
[16:14] of artificial. It's it's kind of a
[16:16] fallacy that they're separate because
[16:18] they're so connected. And and you know
[16:20] the what I find so fascinating is that
[16:23] and functional medicine is really good
[16:24] at describing this. What are the
[16:26] fundamental physiological processes that
[16:28] underly all disease? There's not that
[16:30] many of them. There's the microbiome.
[16:32] There's the immune function.
[16:34] >> There's your mitochondria. There's your,
[16:36] you know, communication systems and
[16:38] networks, hormones and so forth. There
[16:39] are transmitters. There's your
[16:40] circulatory vascular system. There's
[16:42] your detoxification system. There's your
[16:44] structural system down from to the
[16:46] membranes all the way to your
[16:48] biomechanical structures. Disturbances
[16:50] in these fundamental processes are
[16:52] what's driving all the downstream
[16:54] illnesses.
[16:54] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.
[16:55] >> And so when you look at the science and
[16:58] you know what's interesting is is as a
[16:59] functional medicine doctor like I'm not
[17:01] a quote specialist, but I I'm a super
[17:04] generalist. So I'm looking at everything
[17:06] all at once. It's like everything
[17:07] everywhere all at once like the movie.
[17:09] And so I'm like, "Oh, gee, if you look
[17:11] at the literature on depression, it's
[17:13] brain inflammation." Yes.
[17:14] >> And mitochondrial issues. If you look at
[17:16] the issue the the literature on
[17:18] Alzheimer's, it's the same thing. If you
[17:19] look at the literature on autism, it's
[17:21] the same thing. If you look at the
[17:22] literatur on schizophrenia, it's the
[17:23] same thing. So all these diseases are
[17:26] like like leaves on a tree and they have
[17:29] common roots and and often common
[17:32] therapies. Um, but the common therapies
[17:35] like aren't aren't like the same drug
[17:38] for the different diseases. They're like
[17:40] the fundamental lifestyle and causal
[17:42] corrective causal systems.
[17:44] >> And I think Mark, you have the
[17:45] perspective to see all of the
[17:46] connections among these things because
[17:48] if someone is an Alzheimer's doctor and
[17:51] they don't necessarily see patients with
[17:53] diabetes or with with other psychiatric
[17:55] conditions, they won't see the
[17:57] connections between the things that were
[17:59] helpful. And [clears throat] um you know
[18:00] some of the people that you've
[18:01] interviewed they said you know the
[18:03] dietary change that I uh you know did I
[18:07] noticed a big change and that wouldn't
[18:10] have been on the radar for people that
[18:12] were doing the you know conventional
[18:13] treatment.
[18:13] >> What's interesting to me is that you
[18:15] know like Suzanne Go has done a lot of
[18:17] brain imaging around autism and she's
[18:19] like oh there's a lot of mitochondrial
[18:20] dysfunction
[18:21] >> or you look at the same thing around
[18:23] schizophrenia. So the manifestations in
[18:26] an individual depend on their genetics,
[18:29] lots of factors, some of which we
[18:30] understand, some which we don't. But it,
[18:33] you know, like David Deutsch said in the
[18:34] fabric of reality, you can treat
[18:36] diseases even if you've never seen them
[18:38] before, if you follow the fundamental
[18:40] principles and be successful. And that's
[18:42] what I've done in functional medicine.
[18:43] I've treated diseases I've never seen
[18:44] before successfully because I just
[18:47] follow the fundamental laws of biology.
[18:49] And what we're what we're discovering
[18:50] here, and your work is so key to this,
[18:52] is we're discovering these fundamental
[18:54] principles of human biology that were
[18:56] hereto for never unpacked.
[18:58] >> Yes.
[18:58] >> And now they and now they're like, wait,
[19:00] you know, what does OCD or schizophrenia
[19:03] have to do with Alzheimer's a lot?
[19:05] >> Absolutely.
[19:06] >> And and so um
[19:07] >> I I think you're so right, right, Mark.
[19:09] I mean, the what one example and you've
[19:11] written about this is is cardiovascular
[19:13] health. So cardiovascular health and
[19:14] people are familiar with it. I I want to
[19:16] avoid a heart attack. I want to avoid a
[19:18] stroke. I'm going to have a better
[19:19] lifestyle, better diet.
[19:21] >> I I would kind of rephrase it as
[19:22] cardiometabolic health
[19:23] >> cardioabolic health. That's that that
[19:24] that's better. Now, a doctor who's
[19:27] treating Alzheimer's disease
[19:29] >> can say, "Oh, you know, the scan shows
[19:31] that you're you're not do not doing so
[19:33] well. There's amaloid plaques building
[19:36] up in the brain. The treatment for
[19:37] amaloid plaques is I mean, there's a
[19:39] vaccine that's experimental. Do you want
[19:40] to try that?" But you know Mark that at
[19:43] the same time you know 60% of people
[19:46] that are diagnosed with dementia h have
[19:48] cardioabolic uh issues and problems that
[19:52] to some extent are treatable. they may
[19:54] be very treatable. and even going over
[19:56] to mental health and and mental illness.
[19:58] Um we had a colleague Thomas Hayek and
[20:00] he treats a lot of people with
[20:01] schizophrenia and and and bipolar and he
[20:04] said do you know that the the
[20:06] cardioabolic health of these patients
[20:08] makes all the difference in the world
[20:10] and he said some of the treatments for
[20:12] schizophrenia as you know make you put
[20:14] on weight it's you're part part of this
[20:17] and he noticed
[20:18] >> it's ironic the very drugs that treat
[20:19] schizophrenia cause the very problem
[20:22] cause the very problem that causes
[20:23] schizophrenia which is mitochondrial
[20:25] >> dysfunction. Absolutely. and and he
[20:27] noticed by looking at brain imaging he
[20:29] said look I've seen the differences in
[20:31] people with schizophrenia on brain
[20:33] imaging this tissue loss
[20:35] >> but the people with high body mass index
[20:37] or the people with with with
[20:39] cardiamatabolic problems they have worse
[20:42] brain uh scans and he was very
[20:44] interested he said you know in enigma
[20:46] let's start collecting that data and I
[20:48] mean Mark you do this so so as well as
[20:50] the brain scan let's collect data on
[20:52] their uh cardioabolic uh markers in in
[20:55] blood And I mean you you knew this and
[20:58] in your work you pointed this out. In
[21:00] addition to whatever it is that is going
[21:02] on in their brain, their systemic their
[21:04] bodily health when that is treated it it
[21:07] it can make a whole world of difference
[21:09] to to to their symptoms. And this was
[21:11] true in depression. It was true in
[21:12] bipolar disease. It was true in
[21:14] schizophrenia. And just to be really
[21:15] precise, the amount of difference in
[21:18] their brain on a brain scan was far
[21:21] greater if there was metabolic disease
[21:23] or if there was there was cardiovascular
[21:24] disease. and and and he he he said you
[21:27] know this is revolutionary because we
[21:29] don't I mean we will certainly use
[21:30] antiscychotics but we don't see all the
[21:33] time this other path
[21:34] >> to health.
[21:35] >> Yeah.
[21:36] >> And I mean the patients are extremely
[21:39] interested in this as you know because
[21:40] it's it's another path
[21:42] >> and he said it's a little like a bank
[21:44] account. I mean, let's say my bank
[21:46] account is getting low,
[21:47] >> but there's plenty of ways that that
[21:49] bank account can be topped back up
[21:51] >> and we we we used to use this one and it
[21:53] worked for some people, didn't work so
[21:55] well in others. But if there's another
[21:57] route, as you know, to replenish or
[21:59] protect or bolster the other processes
[22:02] that are going on. I mean, that can make
[22:03] the world of difference.
[22:04] >> Yeah. And it's so true. And I think that
[22:06] we we really we really don't think about
[22:08] treating the body to treat the brain.
[22:10] And that was the subtitle of my book,
[22:12] Ultra Mind, which was fix your broken
[22:14] brain by
[22:15] >> Yes.
[22:15] >> healing your body first.
[22:16] >> Yes.
[22:17] >> Or something like that. I know.
[22:18] >> And you know this, but this is true in
[22:20] people that are sick and in true in
[22:22] people that are healthy. So So if you
[22:23] look in in these brain scans of people
[22:26] with different mental health conditions,
[22:28] the people that have an intervention
[22:30] that protects their cardioabolic health
[22:32] do do better. The scan can can show you
[22:35] it. So I mean we know that this is also
[22:37] relevant to you know everybody but
[22:40] particularly in these illnesses that we
[22:41] blamed on something else it seems to
[22:43] make the world of difference.
[22:44] >> Yeah. You know you studied the spectrum
[22:46] of psychiatric and neurologic
[22:48] conditions.
[22:49] >> What you know they have all these
[22:51] different labels. Yes.
[22:52] >> What's in common?
[22:54] >> Kind of interesting. So you mentioned
[22:55] the DSM5 which is the way that doctors
[22:58] categorize a person's mental health
[23:01] condition. and and and people have heard
[23:02] of things like, you know, major
[23:03] depression, bipolar disease,
[23:05] schizophrenia, the there's conditions
[23:07] like post-traumatic stress disorder,
[23:09] there's addiction, and they they can be
[23:11] grouped. So there so there's a lot of um
[23:14] mental health conditions with emotional
[23:17] blunting, lowered a effect. There's sort
[23:20] of a depressive aspect of this. And on
[23:22] on brain images, you very often see
[23:25] metabolic uh issues in the so-called
[23:28] lybic system. So the the the center of
[23:30] the brain, we often think of it as the
[23:32] gas pedal, the motivation, the
[23:34] >> reptilian part of your brain,
[23:35] >> the reptilian part of the brain.
[23:37] >> And this is a deep part of the brain
[23:39] that you could maybe think of as kind of
[23:41] the gas pedal, the motivator, what
[23:42] drives us to get out of bed in the
[23:44] morning. What what what motivates us?
[23:45] >> It's the the fight or flight or feeding
[23:47] kind
[23:48] >> Exactly.
[23:49] >> We call it the fours in medical school.
[23:51] Uh fight or flight, feeding, and
[23:53] reproduction.
[23:54] >> Yes. [laughter] Yes.
[23:55] >> The fours.
[23:56] >> Yes. Yes. So, so you can see this part
[23:58] of the brain on neuro imaging and a lot
[24:00] of the mental health conditions that are
[24:02] associated with poorer um your emotional
[24:05] flattening. I mean loss of uh motivation
[24:08] and valition and that would include uh
[24:10] depression. It would include in some
[24:12] cases anxiety the the depressive side of
[24:15] bipolar disease which is is very low
[24:17] emotion. You'll see on the brain scans
[24:20] that there is in some cases structural
[24:22] uh deficits there but also metabolic. I
[24:25] mean you you know glutamate for example
[24:27] I mean the the the neurotransmitter
[24:28] that's very important to brain
[24:31] excitation you'll see you know
[24:32] abnormalities in in in in glutamate too.
[24:35] So that is one group of disorders
[24:38] whether whether it's depression we
[24:40] sometimes call them internalizing
[24:41] disorders because they're they're
[24:42] disorders of thought they're emotional
[24:44] disorders in in insight us there's
[24:46] another group of psychiatric disorders
[24:48] that are associated with compulsion
[24:51] >> addiction substance OCD is one of them I
[24:54] mean the these are disorders and on
[24:56] brain scans you can often see these
[24:58] compulsive um even aggressive uh
[25:01] disorders associated with abnormalities
[25:04] in the frontal the frontal parts of the
[25:06] brain, the frontal loads of the brain.
[25:07] So these are sort of two systems.
[25:09] There's the there's the there's the gas
[25:11] pedal, the motivator, the primitive
[25:13] brain, and the frontal part of the
[25:14] brain. You'll often see damage, and the
[25:17] brain scans show this in people that are
[25:19] disinhibited that they might might be
[25:21] manic, they might have even ADHD where
[25:24] the the there's a sort of overactivity.
[25:27] And so these are it's a very simple
[25:29] classification of the disorders into
[25:31] ones where there's depression, blunted
[25:32] affect or the ones where there are
[25:34] compulsions, but you'll see
[25:36] similarities. So if someone um who's
[25:38] addicted to a substance of abuse, you
[25:41] know, alcohol or meth or opiates or
[25:44] cocaine, you'll often see damage and
[25:47] this is visible on the brain scan in the
[25:49] frontal loes of the brain. And the
[25:51] frontal loes are kind of like the
[25:53] brakes. So if if the lyic system is the
[25:55] gas pedal, the frontal lobe is a little
[25:56] bit like the brakes. So if you've
[25:57] damaged the brakes, there's often a, you
[25:59] know, an out of control aspect uh to to
[26:01] to behavior. So these patterns,
[26:05] they're they're not just physical
[26:07] pictures of how these brain diseases
[26:08] look. They're sort of becoming
[26:10] diagnostic tests as well. So if if if
[26:12] someone you wants to know if someone
[26:14] has, you know, anxiety or depression,
[26:16] >> are these not functional MRIs? These are
[26:18] >> they they're actually both. So, so, so
[26:20] to make a distinction, the the the
[26:21] functional MRIs are more useful in
[26:24] psychiatry because we tend to think of
[26:26] these are more disorders of behavior, of
[26:29] emotion. We may not see a physical loss
[26:32] of tissue, but like you said, Mark,
[26:34] there may be molecular changes, there
[26:36] may be physiological changes that we can
[26:39] um interrupt or or block or restore that
[26:43] can the readout on the functional MRI
[26:45] shows a benefit. So for people listening
[26:46] just kind of help distinguish between
[26:48] what is a regular brain MRI and what is
[26:50] a functional brain MRI.
[26:51] >> Okay. Okay. So so a regular brain MRI
[26:54] looks a bit like an X-ray and and the
[26:56] reason we don't use X-rays it's a fancy
[26:59] X-ray. The the principle of how it works
[27:01] is is a is a little different. So so an
[27:03] X-ray is radiation wherever this bone or
[27:06] or kind of fibrous tissue I mean you can
[27:09] see it if you've broken your bone you
[27:10] can see the problem.
[27:11] >> Yeah. For the brain, a lot of the issues
[27:13] are with the tissue, the nervous tissue,
[27:15] the the obviously brain's not made of
[27:18] the material that bones are made out of.
[27:20] So that's why we use MRI.
[27:22] >> And usually the types of things a
[27:24] structural MRI will pick up is if
[27:27] there's a tumor or a brain bleed, if
[27:29] someone has an aneurysm, you will see on
[27:31] the MRI that there's a physical
[27:33] structural disturbance of the brain.
[27:35] Mhm.
[27:36] >> Now, what happened was round about um 30
[27:39] years ago, there were people tinkering
[27:41] around with a an MRI and they said, you
[27:44] know, wouldn't it be interesting if this
[27:46] depended on how active the brain was? I
[27:48] mean, it's just a picture, but I mean,
[27:50] it is measuring physical process in the
[27:52] brain. And so they started to do
[27:54] experiments where somebody did a task in
[27:56] the scanner, like they they would tap
[27:58] their fingers or they they they they'd
[28:00] look at a flashing light and they found
[28:02] tiny differences in the oxygenation of
[28:05] the blood in the brain. And if you could
[28:08] subtract the the image when someone was
[28:11] active uh from the image when they were
[28:13] at rest, you could pick up and this
[28:15] really took off. And so, you know, in in
[28:18] the '90s, you'd get, you know, here's
[28:19] the map of language or here's the map of
[28:22] of planning or here's the map of of
[28:24] vision. And the brain is a landscape.
[28:26] It's like a city. I mean, there's places
[28:27] that control these different different
[28:29] tasks.
[28:30] >> So, you you're right. functional MRI is
[28:32] looking at the blood flow in the brain,
[28:35] which for many reasons can be disrupted
[28:37] either because the the blood vessels are
[28:39] blocked as in stroke or because there
[28:42] just simply isn't the metabolic supply
[28:44] uh to to drive the blood into these key
[28:47] brain regions.
[28:47] >> So basically, you're looking at the the
[28:49] the biological function of the brain
[28:51] versus just the structure of the brain.
[28:53] >> That's right. and and you can tell a lot
[28:55] about the metabolic function, what's
[28:57] working, what's not working, how it's
[28:59] working, and that tells you so much
[29:00] about the psychiatric diseases. So, it's
[29:03] a way of like using imaging for
[29:04] psychiatric illness.
[29:05] >> Absolutely.
[29:06] >> When you you've looked at so many
[29:07] brains, like what are the things that
[29:09] you're finding because you're not just
[29:10] looking at brains, you're also looking
[29:12] at lifestyle factors, you're looking at
[29:15] blood biomarkers. What What are the
[29:17] factors that seem to have the strongest
[29:18] influence over brain function, brain
[29:21] health over time? Because because you
[29:22] know we we all know okay I know for my
[29:24] heart I should not eat saturated fat
[29:26] although that's not right or I know I
[29:28] should exercise. I know I shouldn't
[29:29] smoke. I know these things are important
[29:31] for my heart health. But people go how
[29:33] do I take care of my brain?
[29:34] >> Yes. Well those same things as you would
[29:36] know Mark matter for the brain. And so
[29:38] so we when we when we looked at brain
[29:40] scans of people that were maybe obese
[29:42] overweight their brain would look eight
[29:45] years older. And you you know there's
[29:47] this um very interesting measure of of
[29:50] brain age. So you you you've talked
[29:52] about this concept in in your work. So
[29:54] so the brain age would be you know how
[29:56] how old does my brain look and not just
[29:58] an opinion. I mean a computer can
[30:00] identify the different features of the
[30:02] brain that that change as we age and
[30:03] give you a score.
[30:04] >> And what are those what are those
[30:05] measuring?
[30:06] >> Well they they can be based on a few
[30:09] different kinds of measures. So the ones
[30:11] based on brain MRI um are usually
[30:13] measuring the structures of the brain
[30:15] that change the most as we get older.
[30:17] And so you know you know kids brains
[30:20] grow they reach a peak in your 20s.
[30:22] Obviously there's a gentle loss of brain
[30:25] tissue throughout the brain. I mean even
[30:28] the shrinking of of the brain. So you
[30:29] can make a brain chart. So you you you
[30:32] can sort of say, you know, a
[30:34] pediatrician has a chart of how, you
[30:36] know, the height of a a child should be
[30:38] at different ages, and they're not all
[30:39] the same height. There's a there's a
[30:41] range. So what about if we were to make
[30:43] a chart of the size of the brain's
[30:46] memory system,
[30:47] >> like the hippocampus,
[30:48] >> like the hippocampus. And for a long
[30:50] time, even in drug trials, that that
[30:53] single measure was used. So if someone
[30:55] was designing a drug trial of an
[30:57] anti-dementia drug, it would be common
[30:59] to say, well, the primary endpoint of
[31:01] this trial is the person's memory
[31:03] function doesn't decline as much. I
[31:05] mean, that's the clinical endpoint, but
[31:06] we we're interested in a physical
[31:08] biomarker as well. So they would pick
[31:11] either the size of the hippocampus,
[31:13] which is little two teaspoon,
[31:17] it's like a seahorse. Over the course of
[31:19] time, I think people realized that, you
[31:20] know, just a single measure wasn't
[31:22] really gonna cut it. It's not gonna cut
[31:24] it. So, so even if you stay within a
[31:26] brain MRI, you can say well okay what
[31:29] are the other things that decline as we
[31:31] age you know may maybe the uh language
[31:34] area and the the visual area and other
[31:36] thing let's measure all of them. So what
[31:38] people do when they talk about brain age
[31:40] is they say well okay in a particular
[31:43] person let's measure them all and we're
[31:45] going to say where this person is on a
[31:47] chart like a percentile chart and if the
[31:50] hippocample volume is is kind of low
[31:52] maybe in the lower 5%. Let's look at
[31:54] some other things as well. Let's look at
[31:55] the the the white matter connectivity of
[31:58] the brain. So there's another type of
[32:00] brain scan diffusion image. if those
[32:03] neural pathways are intact. That's
[32:06] another measure. And you could even uh
[32:08] put in functional imaging. You say,
[32:10] well, the structure looks like there's a
[32:12] little bit of a problem. What what if we
[32:13] look at this other measure of blood
[32:15] flow? So, what'll happen is all of these
[32:18] individual biomarkers on their own, they
[32:21] can certainly flag an anomaly on their
[32:23] own, but imagine how great it would be
[32:25] if there was a holistic picture. I mean,
[32:27] even just with imaging, all these cool
[32:29] types of imaging. And that has led to
[32:31] the notion of for example brain age. And
[32:34] so so you could say well
[32:36] >> it's a composite number from a multiple
[32:38] different structural aspects of the
[32:39] brain.
[32:40] >> Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And you I mean
[32:42] you you know this Mark I mean just just
[32:44] for your listeners you could have a
[32:46] blood age. So you you could say look we
[32:48] can measure proteins in the blood. We
[32:51] know things like cholesterol and lipids
[32:53] are very important to healthy function.
[32:55] We want to look at hormones like
[32:57] estrogen and testosterone. maybe
[33:00] homocyine which is sometimes a sign of
[33:02] of bad uh metabolism. Let's make a score
[33:06] and there's several scores from from
[33:08] blood. I mean blood blood um I mean you
[33:10] know this you can get a blood panel
[33:12] readout uh and flag things that that are
[33:15] off but you can also have a summary as
[33:17] you know of of cardioabolic health. Are
[33:20] there any signs of Alzheimer's? Are
[33:22] there endocrine markers within range?
[33:24] And so I think as you've said the
[33:26] question the hormones as well
[33:28] >> nutrients hormones everything
[33:29] >> and the these are also evident in a
[33:32] brain scan. So people who had below
[33:35] normal estrogen and testosterone their
[33:38] brain aging was faster.
[33:39] >> And I mean that kind kind of makes
[33:41] sense. If if their thyroid their thyroid
[33:44] hormone was too low their brain aging
[33:45] was faster.
[33:46] >> Too lower like low normal or low
[33:48] >> out of out of range. And that's a good
[33:50] point. So there's some markers where
[33:52] they're too high when they're bad.
[33:54] something like homocyine. So if someone
[33:56] was taking folate or the B vitamins and
[33:59] it can lower your homocyine and these
[34:02] have been used as as you know in in in
[34:04] clinical trials. I mean there's been
[34:05] tests that have said look if somebody
[34:08] has some of these nutrients out of range
[34:11] there's not just a health benefit of
[34:13] fixing them but there's a physical
[34:16] measure in their brain scans that their
[34:18] brain is getting better.
[34:19] >> So brain brain is is a useful tool to
[34:21] sort of see how you're doing. I want to
[34:23] take a little digression around this
[34:25] because
[34:27] you know we often think that aging is a
[34:30] linear process like we just decline
[34:32] gradually over time and then we die.
[34:34] >> Sure.
[34:34] >> It doesn't turn out that that's true. I
[34:36] can tell you that from personal
[34:38] experience. I've aged backwards and
[34:40] forwards many times
[34:42] >> and uh not obviously willingly. I've had
[34:45] various conditions or illnesses that
[34:47] have knocked me back.
[34:48] >> Yes. But I I recently um went to Mexico
[34:51] where um there's a compound called
[34:53] ibeane which is legal.
[34:55] >> Yes.
[34:56] >> And I took it as a sort of as a way to
[34:59] enhance my neuroplasticity because I met
[35:01] with Governor Rick Perry
[35:04] >> who's was the 15-year governor of Texas
[35:06] and we had a dinner and he's like you
[35:08] know Mark I did this and my brain size
[35:11] increased on MRIs and that got my
[35:13] attention like oh okay well I'm 66.
[35:17] I'm like, I could use all the help I can
[35:18] get. And I was like, let me try it.
[35:21] Yeah.
[35:21] >> And I went down there and I and I was
[35:23] methodical. I did a brain imaging, a
[35:25] quantitative brain image because there's
[35:26] different kind of MRIs. You can do MRI,
[35:28] just a regular one, and then you can
[35:29] measure ones that look at specific brain
[35:31] structures and actually measure
[35:32] quantitatively the size of them. And I
[35:35] did a quantitative M before,
[35:38] a week after, and three months after.
[35:40] And my cortical thickness, which is sort
[35:42] of the the size of your brain
[35:44] essentially, like went up 8%.
[35:46] and my white matter lesions which is the
[35:49] level of inflammation which tends to get
[35:50] worse as you get aged aged is went
[35:53] [clears throat] down 22%.
[35:55] >> I'm curious if you've seen this kind of
[35:56] phenomena happen before yes and and what
[36:00] can you talk about that could explain
[36:02] that and what other things other
[36:04] lifestyle factors or other things drugs
[36:06] that you've seen that can help do this?
[36:08] >> I mean you know this Mark they they they
[36:09] make a huge difference. So there the
[36:11] there's dietary factors, there's
[36:13] physical lifestyle factors and I mean
[36:15] you you saw this with from your own
[36:17] experience and in the scan. It's just
[36:19] not regularly studied and and I think
[36:21] you know you're seeing
[36:22] >> by the way I didn't tell the
[36:23] neuroraiologist what I did. I just they
[36:25] had my scans and they were like what the
[36:26] heck's going on here?
[36:27] >> Yeah, absolutely. And there are so many
[36:29] lifestyle factors as well. So what one
[36:31] example that I mean Mark you've written
[36:33] about is sleep. So having good sleep and
[36:35] and sleep I mean we think of it you know
[36:37] the brain isn't doing anything at all. I
[36:39] mean, when you're asleep, that's that's
[36:41] just downtime. But on imaging,
[36:44] neuroiming, the images kind of had a
[36:46] surprise recently. There's something
[36:47] called the glimpmphatic system of the
[36:49] brain.
[36:50] >> And neuroscientists kind of knew a
[36:52] little bit about this, but they'd never
[36:53] really seen it in action. And what
[36:55] happens is when you're asleep, the
[36:59] there's these sort of waves almost like
[37:01] a car wash where the brain fluid is
[37:03] cleansing out toxic u products uh from
[37:07] the brain. And I mean this wouldn't be
[37:10] your thinking creates a lot of waste
[37:12] products.
[37:12] >> It creates a lot of wast you got to poop
[37:14] at the end of the day and your brain
[37:16] essentially has to get cleaned out at
[37:18] night.
[37:18] >> Absolutely.
[37:19] >> And we have a lymph system for cleaning
[37:21] out our waste from our body. But
[37:22] >> absolutely
[37:23] >> our brain has its own lymph system. We
[37:24] call it the lymphatic system.
[37:26] >> It and it I mean it comes back to what
[37:28] you said Mark. If you weren't thinking
[37:29] about that or weren't knowing that there
[37:31] was anything there, I mean you'd miss
[37:32] it. But what started to happen is people
[37:35] said,"Well, if if you have bad sleep,
[37:37] how how does that affect brain decline
[37:39] as you age?" I mean, something like
[37:41] Alzheimer's. And a lot of these things
[37:43] are circular. If someone starts to have
[37:44] Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, their sleep
[37:46] is going to be affected.
[37:48] >> And as you know, if you can fix their
[37:50] sleep or if you can fix the lifestyle
[37:51] factors, some of these other things come
[37:53] back
[37:54] >> into line. So, we were able to see in in
[37:56] in in these brain scans the effects of
[37:59] bad sleep. But until you think about the
[38:02] mechanism, this sort of detoxification
[38:04] of the brain that goes on during sleep,
[38:05] you don't realize how important it is.
[38:07] So in Enigma, our consortium, we have a
[38:10] sleep group and they look at insomnia. I
[38:12] mean, people that have a sleep disorder.
[38:14] Then they have people that, you know,
[38:15] would would benefit from better sleep.
[38:17] Maybe their job is very stressful and
[38:20] you see these biomarkers come back into
[38:22] line. I mean, as you know, I mean, you
[38:23] see see them restore. And so sleep is
[38:26] important. Um as you as you know you
[38:29] know good good quality diet is important
[38:32] and I think the important thing you said
[38:33] Mark you know your brain restores. I
[38:36] mean we we were looking with with brain
[38:38] imaging at uh people with eating
[38:40] disorders people with anorexia
[38:42] >> and it it had the greatest effect on the
[38:45] brain of any disorder that we've studied
[38:47] in psychiatry. So we studied depression
[38:49] yeah bipolis for eating disorders. Now
[38:52] you know that this is common sense. I
[38:54] mean the food is the fuel of of the
[38:56] mind. But when they were treated, when
[39:00] they went to the hospital, when their
[39:01] nutrition was back in balance, all of
[39:04] these brain systems were restored. And
[39:07] you one of the things that you're taught
[39:08] in medical school is the brain, you
[39:10] know, this the brain doesn't regenerate
[39:13] tissue. And you think, wait, wait, wait,
[39:14] wait a minute. The brain scan, like you
[39:16] said with iberain, the brain scan shows
[39:18] physical evidence for this. So I think
[39:20] you people shouldn't be so um
[39:24] pessimistic about the potential for for
[39:26] the brain to recover because it's just
[39:28] not not true.
[39:30] >> Yeah. And I think what your work is
[39:31] doing by kind of mapping the brain with
[39:33] imaging by mapping the biomarkers by
[39:35] looking at metabolic things and
[39:37] nutritional factors, hormonal factors
[39:39] and probably I don't know what else
[39:40] you're looking at which I'd like to
[39:42] unpack. you know, you're you're you're
[39:44] actually seeing how the brain can repair
[39:46] and and many of these conditions can be
[39:50] treated in a different way.
[39:51] >> Absolutely.
[39:51] >> Uh and you know, the thing that's so
[39:53] interesting to me is that you're seeing
[39:55] that there's like some distinct patterns
[39:58] in different conditions, but there's a
[39:59] lot of shared patterns. Can you talk
[40:01] about that?
[40:02] >> Yeah, absolutely. So,
[40:03] >> cross disease brain patterns as you
[40:04] describe them.
[40:05] >> Yeah. So what one what are the puzzles
[40:07] about um the brain's function is is very
[40:12] very complicated and the more imaging
[40:14] that's done I mean the more complexity
[40:16] you you start to see and it's it's like
[40:18] layers of detail. So one of one of the
[40:19] things that you see is that the brain
[40:22] has synchronized activity in so-called
[40:24] functional resting state networks and in
[40:27] something like depression in something
[40:29] where someone's brain activity is less
[40:32] even the switching between these
[40:34] networks is slowed it doesn't work and
[40:37] and we talked about the X-rays you would
[40:39] never see this on an X-ray it just has
[40:41] to do with the eb and flow if we were at
[40:43] the ocean side and we were watching the
[40:45] waves come in there'd be something about
[40:47] the dynamic balance
[40:48] uh of these things and we see this in
[40:51] depression, we see it in bipolar. The
[40:54] treatments are usually either
[40:56] pharmaceutical medication, you know,
[40:58] anti-depressants, SSRIs. Uh there's
[41:00] something called TMS, transcranial
[41:02] magnetic stimulation, which attempts to
[41:04] kind of reset the brain activity in a
[41:07] certain way. It's been very effective in
[41:09] um treatment resistant depression or
[41:12] neuro feedback. I I know you've talked
[41:14] Mark about this in in in other episodes
[41:16] where a person try so maybe a patient
[41:18] with chronic pain or a condition that
[41:20] that that is is re really severe they
[41:22] try and train their brain activity uh in
[41:25] a certain direction and then as you said
[41:28] there's the lifestyle metabolic and
[41:30] other sources of fuel to the brain and
[41:34] very very often you know some of these
[41:36] things are like turning the dial way up
[41:38] I mean a stimulation is going to have a
[41:39] very radical effect on on the brain in
[41:41] fact initially
[41:43] people wondered whether that was safe.
[41:45] But the ability to influence the your
[41:48] relative contribution of these networks
[41:50] is really important. And I'll give you
[41:52] an example. So the there's a network of
[41:54] the brain that's active when we're
[41:55] ruminating. So so if you if you don't
[41:58] feel good about something, maybe you
[42:00] just regret something.
[42:01] >> Yeah.
[42:01] >> You your brain kind of fixates on this.
[42:04] So what what what is happening in the
[42:05] brain when when you're doing well? I
[42:06] mean it's not we have a brain lesion.
[42:08] Mhm.
[42:09] >> It's that there's a certain kind or
[42:11] pattern of activity and and this has
[42:13] been discovered to be something called
[42:14] the default mode network. It's a network
[42:17] that's kind of active when we're not
[42:19] really doing anything. You could say,
[42:21] well, that that that could be useful,
[42:23] but it could become um
[42:25] >> our ego, right? It's like
[42:26] >> Yes. Yes. So one of the ways that the um
[42:30] treatments are being evaluated for for
[42:31] things like major depression and as we
[42:33] said there can be cognitive behavioral
[42:35] therapy seeing a psychiatrist there can
[42:37] be direct brain stimulation or neuro
[42:39] feedback which is kind of jolting the
[42:41] the brain's activity or lifestyle and
[42:44] cardioabolic approaches as well.
[42:46] >> Every one of these has a role to play in
[42:49] shifting that balance of brain activity
[42:52] back into action. But it's very
[42:54] complicated. I mean, as you said at the
[42:56] beginning, this isn't something that
[42:57] would be evident from a standard brain
[42:59] scan. It has to do with the eb and flow
[43:02] of activity. And I mean, there's even AI
[43:05] methods that are are trying to identify
[43:07] exactly what it is about the brain
[43:09] synchrony that's off and then tell us
[43:11] when it's back in in in balance.
[43:13] >> Yeah, I'm pretty consistent about the
[43:14] things I do for my health. But I also
[43:16] know that the easier something is to
[43:17] work into my day, the more likely I am
[43:19] to stick with it. That's one reason I
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[44:20] But DSO1 is different. It's the number
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[45:07] month. That's seed.com/heimman
[45:10] and use the code 25heimman. I had a case
[45:13] of a patient. And I'll show you the
[45:14] image and we'll put it up on the the
[45:16] video on YouTube and um link it to it in
[45:20] the podcast. But this was a patient I
[45:22] had long time ago who was a ADD patient,
[45:25] ADHD, really bad. He was 12 years old,
[45:28] really intractable, kicked out of
[45:29] kindergarten on rolin for years, you
[45:31] know, just a mess. And he had all these
[45:33] other behavioral issues. He had anxiety,
[45:36] he had insomnia, but he also had health
[45:38] issues like gut issues and asthma and
[45:41] skin issues and just gut issues. It's a
[45:44] mess. He's on seven different
[45:45] medications
[45:48] and I and I his mother came in and I
[45:50] treated him and I I basically gave him
[45:53] you know whole foods diet. He was eating
[45:55] only junk food, processed food was his
[45:57] only diet and so many nutritional
[45:59] deficiencies that I corrected with diet
[46:01] and supplements. His gut was a mess. I
[46:03] helped his gut restore. He had some
[46:05] lead. We kind of got rid of that. But
[46:07] even before we did that, I I basically
[46:09] just did diet and lifestyle and a few
[46:11] supplements. [snorts] He came back two
[46:14] months later and his mother brought his
[46:16] homework. That was before he saw me and
[46:20] then two months later and the original
[46:22] homework was illeible. He was 12 years
[46:24] old and it was what we call disgraphia
[46:26] which was a common you know kind of a
[46:29] symptom of people with brain dysfunction
[46:31] and these kids with learning
[46:32] disabilities or you know ADHD and so
[46:36] forth. They they have bad handwriting.
[46:38] It's basically bad handwriting like
[46:41] really bad. And he comes back two months
[46:43] later mom's bring his homework in and
[46:45] I'm like wow it was perfect perfect
[46:49] penmanship and I was like that was the
[46:51] aha moment for me. It's like what is
[46:53] going on in the brain? Like this wasn't
[46:55] a kid who had handwriting lessons for 2
[46:57] months. He had something go from chaotic
[47:00] and coherent and disynchronous in his
[47:02] brain to coherent and synchronized and
[47:04] organized.
[47:05] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.
[47:06] >> And I was like, "Oh my god, this is
[47:08] something that nobody's talking about."
[47:10] And that's what led me to write the book
[47:12] The Ultra Mind Solution, which was this
[47:14] case. And and I and you know, I wrote
[47:16] about Alzheimer's and autism and many
[47:18] other things that are kind of quote
[47:19] incurable
[47:21] >> that were curable. Yes. If you
[47:22] understood how the brain worked and how
[47:24] all these factors from diet, exercise,
[47:27] sleep, stress, environmental toxins, gut
[47:30] health, nutrient deficiencies, all these
[47:32] things play a role
[47:34] >> and they're the things and the things
[47:35] you're looking at. So like you're doing
[47:37] this massive study, you're getting
[47:38] massive NIH grants, you're looking at 47
[47:41] countries, you know, thousands of
[47:43] doctors and scientists and you know,
[47:45] just so much work and you're coming back
[47:47] to the same freaking conclusion, which
[47:49] is it's these fundamental
[47:51] >> Yes.
[47:52] things that matter and that we can
[47:53] modify that we have control over that
[47:56] can change not only the the function of
[47:59] our brain but the structure of our brain
[48:01] and I'm glad you said that Mark because
[48:02] it's so critical for mental health I
[48:04] mean whether someone's generally well or
[48:06] whether they have a mental health
[48:07] condition I mean you you've described
[48:09] examples where this has made the world
[48:11] of difference and I think one of the
[48:13] reasons that neuroscience sort of went
[48:15] in in the wrong way is everyone say well
[48:17] you know everything is neurotransmitters
[48:20] I if we could just get the level of the
[48:22] chemical right for dopamine or
[48:24] adrenaline or serotonin. And you know
[48:26] there there's some validity to that. I
[48:28] mean there could be an imbalance maybe a
[48:30] drug. I mean an example might be you
[48:32] know if you're anxious you could take a
[48:34] drug like propranol or beta blocker and
[48:36] you know you feel a bit better but
[48:39] that's missing the whole channel and
[48:42] stream of fuel that's going on in your
[48:44] brain your body. I mean, we we know this
[48:46] and and I I think I mean, you you've
[48:48] pioneered this line of of of thinking
[48:51] treating those things as well. The
[48:53] psychiatrists that we worked with and
[48:54] they all say the same thing,
[48:56] >> it it can make the world of difference
[48:58] when all of the common remedies have
[49:00] already been exhausted.
[49:01] >> Yeah. I mean, drugs don't really solve
[49:02] these problems. It's like you you're
[49:04] you're treating it's like you're you're
[49:06] treating
[49:08] >> uh you know, a problem with a a symptom
[49:11] suppression drug. And we we talk about
[49:13] this in functional medicine. We call it
[49:15] the TAC world. So we're standing on
[49:16] attack. It takes a lot of aspirin to
[49:17] make it feel better. Take out the TAC.
[49:19] Right? If you're have schizophrenia and
[49:22] your brain's inflamed,
[49:24] >> treat the source of the inflammation,
[49:26] don't give them antiscychotic, right?
[49:28] Change your diet. Get them on a keto
[49:29] diet. Whatever whatever the science is
[49:31] showing. and and and you're you're
[49:33] seeing, you know, your work is so
[49:35] important because it's you there's very
[49:36] few scientists as far as I can tell that
[49:38] that as I said at the beginning of this
[49:40] show that are not just reductionist.
[49:42] You're like zooming out and you're like
[49:43] what are the common patterns? What are
[49:45] the what is like looking at a like tons
[49:48] and tons and tons of data. You're like
[49:50] what are the what are the emerging
[49:51] patterns? And you're seeing these
[49:52] patterns and these common patterns
[49:54] across all kinds of neurologic and
[49:56] psychiatric diseases and there there are
[49:58] common treatments that really work.
[50:00] >> Absolutely. And I think Mark you I mean
[50:01] you you in your writing you you have
[50:03] this perspective where you see that
[50:04] something is effective across so many
[50:06] different conditions and it's because
[50:08] you're treating this systemic issue and
[50:11] and you know you're just looking at the
[50:12] brain you say well I I don't see
[50:14] anything wrong here and I mean can you
[50:16] imagine the times when people have been
[50:17] told their brain is fine but there's
[50:19] something else that could be the source
[50:21] of of of the malady. So I mean it it
[50:24] makes a whole lot of sense.
[50:24] >> Yeah. Treat the system not the symptoms.
[50:26] >> Yes. Right. Yes. Yeah. In terms of
[50:28] Enigma and the work you're doing, how
[50:30] much is determined by genetics versus
[50:32] lifestyle environment?
[50:33] >> So Mark, I mean both genetics and
[50:36] lifestyle are are usually important. And
[50:39] just to give some examples, it depends
[50:41] on the disease. So there there are some
[50:43] diseases of the brain that are genetic
[50:45] diseases. Not not many of them, but
[50:47] there's a few. So something like uh Down
[50:49] syndrome, fragile X syndrome, William
[50:52] syndrome. These are usually
[50:53] developmental abnormalities of the brain
[50:55] where sometimes somebody's DNA their
[50:58] genetic code has a a deletion and it it
[51:00] it doesn't develop in the way that we we
[51:02] would expect. [clears throat]
[51:03] >> Now you say what about the more common
[51:05] disorder you know Alzheimer's or
[51:07] Parkinson's or stroke.
[51:09] >> Now there's some puzzles there. So
[51:11] something like Alzheimer's disease
[51:13] there's one form of it that is genetic.
[51:15] So only 2% of patients have these
[51:17] precinel
[51:18] >> it's the presinolin gene. So so that's
[51:20] interesting in of itself. So if there
[51:22] can be a form of the disease that's
[51:24] genetic and you can point to a gene I
[51:26] mean that's already very interesting and
[51:27] there there as you said prescinoline the
[51:30] there's an amaloid precursor protein
[51:31] gene where someone has a really serious
[51:34] genetic anomaly in that area of their
[51:36] brain overproduces these amaloid plaques
[51:39] and that that can lead to dementia. But
[51:41] for the 98% of the other cases the genes
[51:46] sort of tilt the scales a little and
[51:49] they're not deterministic. It's not
[51:50] deterministic at all. And there are some
[51:53] important ones. So I I'll give you an
[51:54] example. So in Alzheimer's disease,
[51:57] there is a genetic variant that triples
[52:00] your risk and it's not rare. And so
[52:02] there's something called APOE, the apple
[52:04] protein APOE copies. Yeah,
[52:06] >> absolutely. And and around a quarter of
[52:09] us have one copy of this, threequarters
[52:11] don't have it. Around 6% of us have two
[52:14] copies. and the risk can be um nine to
[52:18] 10 times higher just from from this
[52:20] gene. Now, that doesn't mean that
[52:22] someone's going to get Alzheimer's if
[52:24] they have this gene. It sort of tilts
[52:25] the the scales
[52:27] >> and and a lot is beginning to be known
[52:29] about these genes. So, so one puzzling
[52:31] thing is um in people of African
[52:34] ancestry, the APOE doesn't matter as
[52:37] much. In people of Japanese and Chinese
[52:40] ancestry is really bad. And people of
[52:42] European ancestry somewhere in between.
[52:44] interesting and
[52:45] >> and it was originally uh sort of
[52:48] speculated that maybe in those countries
[52:50] other things uh determining health but
[52:53] more recently it's been found that even
[52:54] the gene sequence
[52:57] in East Africans there's a genetic
[52:59] variation that's near the APOE gene that
[53:02] seems to neutralize it
[53:03] >> protect it
[53:04] >> it seems to be protected now that's
[53:06] interesting because if you could somehow
[53:08] switch that on or introduce it I mean
[53:10] maybe there's a kind of direct genetic
[53:13] approach uh to doing this. And so when
[53:15] we started to look at the genomes of
[53:17] people that had Alzheimer's disease, we
[53:20] knew that this gene, I mean, number one,
[53:21] it's not deterministic at all. I mean,
[53:22] you can have people that have this gene
[53:24] and and they're fine, which is already
[53:26] interesting. There is a protective form
[53:29] of the APOE gene is a little bit rarer
[53:32] called APOE2.
[53:34] But the problem with that is they often
[53:36] have cardio metabolic problems. So they
[53:39] don't get the Alzheimer's, but they tend
[53:40] to get these these other problems. But
[53:42] going back to your question, there are
[53:44] genomeguided drug treatments today. So
[53:47] there there are treatments that are
[53:49] being developed that target these these
[53:51] genes. They won't necessarily target the
[53:53] root cause of all these other things.
[53:55] They just look at that that one gene.
[53:57] >> And I'll tell you a little bit how they
[53:58] work because it's kind of interesting
[53:59] how they work. So
[54:01] >> there's something called polygenic risk
[54:03] and you you know this you can look at
[54:04] somebody's genetic code.
[54:06] >> Yeah. You can add up all of these
[54:07] different genetic variants that matter.
[54:09] Yeah.
[54:10] >> For a particular disease and you can get
[54:12] a score.
[54:13] >> Yeah.
[54:14] >> And within these polygenic scores,
[54:16] there's different subtypes. So that
[54:18] there might be a particular set of genes
[54:19] that have to do with inflammation or
[54:22] amaloid or tow deposition these proteins
[54:24] in the brain or immunity. Maybe that has
[54:27] to do with immunity. So there there are
[54:29] there are actively approaches um one of
[54:32] them in our AI for AD project that
[54:35] essentially take um uh
[54:38] >> and that's a research project using AI
[54:40] to help understand
[54:41] >> Alzheimer's. We'll get into that in a
[54:43] minute. Yeah,
[54:43] >> absolutely. So so you could say well
[54:45] okay how do we influence these genes? I
[54:47] mean the gene looks like it's destiny as
[54:49] we know it isn't but can we influence
[54:51] what the gene is doing? So some of these
[54:53] genes produce protein products and there
[54:57] are known drugs there are known drugs
[54:59] that are already approved by the FDA
[55:01] >> that influence those off label uses.
[55:03] Yeah,
[55:03] >> that that's right. And some of them um I
[55:06] remember your interview with Ian
[55:07] Campbell, you talked about the
[55:08] repurposing of epilepsy drugs in bipolar
[55:12] disease. It was very interesting. I mean
[55:14] the again these drugs are not the whole
[55:16] story. They can help some people
[55:20] >> and so genomeguided drug repurposing has
[55:23] exactly that goal. It tries to find a
[55:26] drug that's already on the market. It's
[55:28] known through these databases of drug
[55:31] gene interactions to suppress a
[55:34] particular kind of uh um you know
[55:36] protein product. And the these are very
[55:38] interesting because if you could pair up
[55:40] a patient's genetic profile with a
[55:43] particular treatment that might be
[55:44] effective for them, it may be less
[55:46] effective for other
[55:47] >> this is personalized treatment. It's
[55:48] personalized precision medicine.
[55:50] >> It's precision medicine. And I I I
[55:52] started to look at the work. There's a a
[55:53] person called Kyunka Chun. She's a a
[55:56] neuroscientist in at Boston University
[55:58] and she um is amazing that she makes
[56:01] these genetically engineered stem cells
[56:03] that express a certain genotype, the
[56:06] genetic risk for Alzheimer's disease.
[56:09] >> And and this sounds like science
[56:11] fiction. It's kind of science fiction.
[56:12] They make these uh uh pluropotent stem
[56:15] cells that turn into brain cells called
[56:18] astroytes and neurons
[56:21] >> and they apply these treatments and see
[56:23] if it is effective at suppressing the
[56:25] gene products of the risk gene. So this
[56:27] is this is an active genomeguided drug
[56:31] repositioning.
[56:31] >> Really [clears throat] this is this is
[56:32] medicine by by thinking rather than just
[56:35] by reaction. This disease this drug it's
[56:38] like what is the pathway? What's the
[56:39] mechanism? What are the gene product?
[56:40] What are the proteins made? How do we
[56:42] modify those? What are the other things
[56:43] we can do? And it's just creative
[56:44] thinking about the biology of a human
[56:46] being that's not just so linear.
[56:48] >> It's fascinating. I mean, and just to be
[56:50] I want to jump to brain charts and
[56:52] diagnostic tools in a minute, but I I
[56:53] just want to sort of double click on the
[56:56] APOE4 gene. Yes. Conversation because
[56:58] it's people are scared. People don't
[56:59] want to test it. And we offer it at
[57:01] Function Health. We also offer PTA
[57:03] testing which is a biomarker that
[57:05] actually looks at progression of brain
[57:08] degeneration around Alzheimer's. Yeah.
[57:10] And it it's it's kind of like a
[57:11] cholesterol test. You can modify it by
[57:12] lifestyle. All right. So, let's talk
[57:14] about this concept that you've kind of
[57:15] developed called brain charts. And also,
[57:18] what kind of new diagnostic test are you
[57:20] actually discovering from this large
[57:22] scale brain imaging and genetic data and
[57:24] biomarker data?
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[59:31] >> So the first one, it focuses on the
[59:34] brain scan and we'll we'll talk in a
[59:36] minute about the blood markers as well,
[59:37] but the the ones that focus on the brain
[59:39] scan. So let's say you and I go and get
[59:41] a brain scan and you could get an MRI at
[59:43] most most hospitals. I mean just look
[59:45] >> now you can now you can get with
[59:46] function health. You can get a brain MRI
[59:48] and all the blood bar markers we're
[59:50] going to talk about.
[59:50] >> That's terrific. So the so the
[59:52] uninterpreted brain scan I mean we could
[59:54] ask a radiologist but I mean what can we
[59:55] do with a brain scan? So you can measure
[59:58] the components of the brain you know
[1:00:00] including ones that you know an
[1:00:01] automatic program can identify and this
[1:00:05] idea has been around for a little while.
[1:00:06] So there's a company called Neuroquand
[1:00:09] which I think you I mean this is an
[1:00:12] accepted method. I mean you will
[1:00:13] basically say let's run this on a huge
[1:00:17] range of people and you know people have
[1:00:19] very different backgrounds. they you
[1:00:21] want to make sure you include people
[1:00:22] from, you know, other countries, people
[1:00:24] that have different backgrounds, you
[1:00:26] know, people who are, you know, they
[1:00:28] live in a city, they live I mean, you
[1:00:29] got to have a very representative u uh
[1:00:32] population to make this chart. And then
[1:00:35] just like a growth chart for a kid where
[1:00:36] you say look you you seem like you're
[1:00:38] doing pretty well or the and the beauty
[1:00:41] of these charts and and you know this
[1:00:42] Mark is you can come back again after
[1:00:45] making a change and see whether or not
[1:00:48] your percentile or you know where you
[1:00:50] are on this chart has improved or or
[1:00:53] gotten worse. And I remember you know my
[1:00:56] first encounter of these things. My my
[1:00:57] daughter was born prematurely. She was
[1:00:59] born at 30 weeks
[1:01:00] >> and they would plot her weight or you
[1:01:03] know you don't say height for a baby the
[1:01:05] length of the baby and it would go back
[1:01:08] towards the the the healthy kids
[1:01:10] >> and in much the same way I mean like
[1:01:12] like you said with your experience with
[1:01:13] with iberain you can make a quantitative
[1:01:17] map of how you are doing relative uh to
[1:01:19] this chart and it can either be for for
[1:01:22] a um a particular brain measure it could
[1:01:25] be for your brain age which is again
[1:01:28] it's sort of
[1:01:29] overall summary of how old your your
[1:01:31] your brain looks.
[1:01:33] >> Now, does the brain scan tell you
[1:01:34] everything? No. So, the the brain scan
[1:01:36] is a tool.
[1:01:38] >> There are other um
[1:01:39] >> so the brain is based on these
[1:01:40] quantitative measures of the brain like
[1:01:42] with a neuroquant or
[1:01:43] >> with Exactly. And one of the reasons in
[1:01:46] Enigma we do this is that we have access
[1:01:48] to a really large number of brain scans.
[1:01:50] So obviously
[1:01:50] >> you can reinterpret it through the
[1:01:52] quantitative analysis.
[1:01:53] >> Yes. Yes. And and it helps to have a
[1:01:56] representative population. So if you
[1:01:57] were going to use these charts in India
[1:01:59] or Africa or Britain, they're different.
[1:02:01] I mean, you you want to make sure that
[1:02:03] you know comparable people are are going
[1:02:05] to be in there, you know, maybe men and
[1:02:07] women are a little different. You have
[1:02:08] to have a chart that's adapted. So So
[1:02:10] the more data I mean, you know this, the
[1:02:12] more that data that goes into compiling
[1:02:13] them, the more accurate uh they are.
[1:02:16] >> And so you know, with a 100,000 brain
[1:02:18] scans, you have a pretty accurate
[1:02:20] picture of what is going on.
[1:02:22] >> The other angle to this, as you know, is
[1:02:25] is the blood panels.
[1:02:27] So in research clinically it's a little
[1:02:30] bit different but in research there are
[1:02:32] panels that measure 11,000 proteins in
[1:02:35] in in the blood and we we proteomics
[1:02:37] >> proteomics and we you know we talked
[1:02:39] about measuring you know people know
[1:02:41] about cholesterol. You measure
[1:02:42] cholesterol in a standard blood test.
[1:02:44] You can look at inflammatory proteins.
[1:02:47] You can look at uh measures of um you
[1:02:49] know general hormonal or endocrine
[1:02:52] health. You can even look for telltain
[1:02:54] tale signs of dietary as you know
[1:02:56] dietary uh abnormalities that are
[1:02:59] fixable and and also toxins. I mean
[1:03:01] maybe someone was exposed to a toxin and
[1:03:04] you know you know this you know
[1:03:05] disorders like Parkinson's disease.
[1:03:08] >> It's very much toxin.
[1:03:09] >> It it is thought to be and this is a
[1:03:11] puzzle. It's thought to be you know
[1:03:13] people that were exposed to a lot of
[1:03:14] pesticides or a lot of hazardous
[1:03:16] chemicals have a higher incidence of
[1:03:18] Parkinson's disease. So these blood
[1:03:20] panels I mean they have multiple uses.
[1:03:23] One of the uses that uh is beginning to
[1:03:25] use AI and I mean you you know this Mark
[1:03:28] is you know we we talked about how on a
[1:03:30] brace there isn't a single measure that
[1:03:32] on its own is going to you know tell us
[1:03:34] the difference between you know recovery
[1:03:37] or not. I mean there's a there's a
[1:03:38] profile. So I really believe that within
[1:03:42] the next 5 to 10 years, we're going to
[1:03:43] be able to at least diagnose all of the
[1:03:46] major neurological and psychiatric
[1:03:48] conditions using a combination of scans,
[1:03:50] the brain scans we talked about
[1:03:52] >> and blood markers. Now the blood markers
[1:03:54] not going to tell you everything as you
[1:03:55] know. You know, if you have a stroke,
[1:03:57] >> maybe the scan is the thing to use. If
[1:03:59] you have a metabolic abnormality, maybe
[1:04:02] both or maybe the blood is going to be
[1:04:03] the thing to use. But what's what's
[1:04:05] amazing about it is this data
[1:04:07] accumulates and the references get
[1:04:09] better and the ability to of either you
[1:04:12] know AI or the charts or some way of
[1:04:16] combining this to to flag the anomalies.
[1:04:19] It not only finds people where these
[1:04:20] treatments are going to be useful but
[1:04:22] but measures the degree of improvement
[1:04:24] as well.
[1:04:24] >> It's really personalized sort of brain
[1:04:27] treatment effect psychiatry neurology
[1:04:29] that are combining brain imaging with
[1:04:32] blood biomarkers.
[1:04:33] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.
[1:04:34] >> That are looking for patterns that are
[1:04:37] unique among them.
[1:04:38] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.
[1:04:39] >> And so what are the suite of blood bar
[1:04:41] markers that you're looking at that are
[1:04:42] most important?
[1:04:43] >> So there's been a huge revolution in the
[1:04:45] last year in the dementia field. And so
[1:04:50] I mean you you know all of the relevant
[1:04:51] processes to to to dementia. There is a
[1:04:54] test for um amaloid beta beta amaloid.
[1:05:00] >> Exactly. And the FDA approved that. Now,
[1:05:02] as we've said, that is just one process
[1:05:06] and some people with dementia have that
[1:05:08] as the main thing that's going on, but
[1:05:09] plenty of other people may not have any
[1:05:11] of that going on at all. So, there there
[1:05:13] are other inflammatory markers. The also
[1:05:17] a measure of neuronal integrity
[1:05:19] neuropilament light is another measure.
[1:05:22] There's gle gal fibrillary
[1:05:25] gap which is looking at your um
[1:05:27] astroitic helper cells. How are they
[1:05:30] doing? And this [clears throat] idea
[1:05:31] that for each one of these channels of
[1:05:35] abnormality there could be a targeted
[1:05:37] treatment. I mean you you know this Mark
[1:05:39] I mean you've you've written about it
[1:05:40] for a long time. The dementia field is
[1:05:42] just coming around to this
[1:05:43] >> and PTA 217
[1:05:45] >> and PTA 217 we offer function health the
[1:05:47] AB440
[1:05:49] light chain p27.
[1:05:50] >> Absolutely.
[1:05:51] >> So Ed let me ask you Mark. So are these
[1:05:53] tests you would recommend for everyone
[1:05:56] who's elderly or just people that are
[1:05:59] showing signs of
[1:06:00] >> I think if you have a family history if
[1:06:02] you I think as a baseline at some point
[1:06:04] to get
[1:06:05] >> maybe when you're 50 or 60 I I I think
[1:06:07] we we don't really know
[1:06:09] >> like when should you check your
[1:06:10] cholesterol when you're five when you're
[1:06:12] 20 when you're 50 like
[1:06:14] >> you know we're seeing kids with
[1:06:16] abnormality we're you didn't mention it
[1:06:18] earlier but you know from brain imaging
[1:06:20] we can see changes in brain imaging 30
[1:06:22] years before you have Alzheimer's.
[1:06:24] >> Absolutely.
[1:06:24] >> So, something's going on and you can you
[1:06:26] can see the smoke signal.
[1:06:28] >> So, I think, you know, we're going to be
[1:06:29] learning more and more about these
[1:06:30] biomarkers, but I think there's there's
[1:06:32] a continuum.
[1:06:33] >> Yes.
[1:06:34] >> Of abnormalities from optimal to fully
[1:06:36] abnormal. And I think it's just like
[1:06:38] blood sugar. Yes.
[1:06:39] >> Our blood sugar cutoff is 100. But we
[1:06:41] know from the data that if blood sugar
[1:06:42] over 85, you're starting to see a linear
[1:06:44] increase in risk of cardiovascular
[1:06:46] disease. So, it's not it's not that
[1:06:48] normal is normal. Yeah, I think that's
[1:06:50] such a great way of looking at it
[1:06:51] because you let's take something like
[1:06:53] Parkinson's. A fraction of people with
[1:06:55] Parkinson's which is a movement disorder
[1:06:57] have a lot of vascular abnormalities in
[1:06:59] the brain. And like you said, I mean
[1:07:01] that that didn't happen today. I mean
[1:07:03] the the scan that shows vascular damage
[1:07:05] didn't happen on the day of the scan.
[1:07:07] >> And so there has to be a whole period of
[1:07:09] time maybe years maybe decades leading
[1:07:12] up to that. And I I think it's a very
[1:07:14] different perspective if someone had a
[1:07:15] scan that revealed that at an earlier
[1:07:17] time point. You know, maybe I mean some
[1:07:19] of the methods that you've been talking
[1:07:20] about could be proactive rather than
[1:07:22] just reactive to the
[1:07:23] >> there are you're talking about things
[1:07:25] like like Alzheimer's and dementia with
[1:07:27] these new biomarkers like neuroilament
[1:07:29] light chain a do 4240 P27 GFP
[1:07:35] >> those are those are emerging biomarkers
[1:07:36] and we're adding those in function or
[1:07:38] they're already in function.
[1:07:40] >> What about psychiatry?
[1:07:41] >> Yes. What are the bioarkers you're
[1:07:43] seeing? Because I I think there are a
[1:07:44] lot of biomarkers of mental health. I
[1:07:46] think it's a whole unexplored area that
[1:07:48] I've been checking for a long time and I
[1:07:50] think I'm curious to see what your
[1:07:52] research is showing.
[1:07:53] >> Yeah. I I I think many of the same
[1:07:55] systemic biomarkers that that you've
[1:07:57] been referring to, I mean, things to do
[1:07:59] with inflammation, you know, all of the
[1:08:01] metabolism. I mean, this is a whole new
[1:08:03] landscape that's ripe for for study. So,
[1:08:06] but I I'll tell you a story. So, one of
[1:08:07] my um lab managers, Chris Wheelen, he
[1:08:10] worked at Biogen and Fizer. And we were
[1:08:13] using a data set called the UK bioac.
[1:08:15] They they they assessed half a million
[1:08:17] people in the UK.
[1:08:18] >> And and and and Chris said what you
[1:08:20] said, why why didn't they collect blood
[1:08:22] readouts, proteomics, I mean, all of
[1:08:24] these things that we know are useful to
[1:08:27] do. And he managed to get a group of
[1:08:29] people together. It's called the PPP. I
[1:08:31] think it's the plasma proteomics
[1:08:32] project.
[1:08:33] >> And you [clears throat] can look at
[1:08:34] exactly what you said. I mean did the
[1:08:36] people that had a mental health issue
[1:08:39] who recovered or had a particular diet
[1:08:42] or lifestyle and I I I think a whole
[1:08:45] landscape of discoveries is going to be
[1:08:47] made using that kind of thing.
[1:08:48] >> So these are like proteomic metabolomic
[1:08:50] tests. They're not clinically used now.
[1:08:52] >> They're not used now. And I think you
[1:08:54] know some of them need to be developed.
[1:08:57] And so there could be as you've said a
[1:08:59] metabolic process or an inflammatory
[1:09:01] process uh good or bad uh immune process
[1:09:05] that is disregulated and as you know
[1:09:07] there's many many ways of nudging that
[1:09:08] back into the the zone it should be
[1:09:11] >> but by looking at this data you could
[1:09:13] even have AI I mean I'm sure you do this
[1:09:15] you even have AI find what is the
[1:09:18] signature of people that did well with
[1:09:20] this treatment what is the signature
[1:09:22] that did well with a different treatment
[1:09:24] and then is there a signature for just
[1:09:26] not great outcome and it's immensely
[1:09:29] useful for people doing drug trials or
[1:09:31] interventional trials because if if they
[1:09:33] have a plasma readout and and there's a
[1:09:35] pretty good chance that these people
[1:09:36] will do well or that these people will
[1:09:38] have a side effect you you know ahead of
[1:09:41] time you can kind of pre-screen and
[1:09:43] neuroiming is used for this if if
[1:09:45] there's a drug trial you can often have
[1:09:47] neuro imaging be kind of a gate it says
[1:09:49] look this this treatment is probably
[1:09:51] going to be good for you we think you
[1:09:53] know in in Alzheimer's also in in
[1:09:55] depression you So the this brain scan
[1:09:58] means that the probability is this is
[1:10:00] probably going to be the the right
[1:10:01] thing. So I think that's a great way
[1:10:03] forward.
[1:10:03] >> That's true. And I and I would say that
[1:10:05] you know there's going to be emerging
[1:10:06] set of diagnostics to come out of things
[1:10:08] that are not typically clinically
[1:10:09] measured now like metabolomics,
[1:10:11] proteomics, proteins and metabolites and
[1:10:13] and we're just sort of hitting the
[1:10:15] surface of that. microbiome so forth.
[1:10:17] But I think there are existing
[1:10:18] biomarkers and we include these at
[1:10:20] function health that that not
[1:10:22] necessarily like are directly correlated
[1:10:23] to mental illness but to play a role in
[1:10:25] mental health like vitamin D, like iron,
[1:10:28] like omega-3 fats, like heavy metals,
[1:10:30] like your insulin levels and metabolic
[1:10:32] health, like hormones, like thyroid,
[1:10:35] like sex hormones. All these things we
[1:10:37] can actually measure and we do
[1:10:39] homocyine, methamonic acid. These are
[1:10:40] these are measures of B vitamin status
[1:10:42] and these are all things that play a
[1:10:44] role in brain health, brain function and
[1:10:46] mood and cognitive function and all of
[1:10:47] it and and they're available to us and
[1:10:50] doctors aren't checking them. You know,
[1:10:51] you mentioned that that the database in
[1:10:52] the UK. There's an American study that's
[1:10:55] called NHANES, which is the National
[1:10:56] Health and Nutrition Examination Survey
[1:10:59] done every year on a set of people. It's
[1:11:00] about 5,000 people. 5,000 people measure
[1:11:03] about 40 blood tests. Function Health,
[1:11:05] we have over half a million people. We
[1:11:07] measure 160 blood tests a year in a
[1:11:09] longitudinal fashion that that look at
[1:11:12] much deeper levels of these these
[1:11:14] biomarkers that nobody's looking at. And
[1:11:16] I think, you know, we're discovering all
[1:11:17] sorts of things and that how sick our
[1:11:19] population is. And we have a health
[1:11:20] foreign population. These are people who
[1:11:21] are proactive, want to join, want to
[1:11:23] know about their health and they're not
[1:11:25] they're not the average American
[1:11:27] typically, although we we hit a broad
[1:11:28] demographic. They're people who are more
[1:11:30] proactive. So even within that
[1:11:31] population, we're seeing such massive
[1:11:33] amounts of problems that are fixable.
[1:11:35] >> And I think Mark, I mean, you collect
[1:11:37] the right data. So you have to ask the
[1:11:39] right question. You have to collect
[1:11:40] enough data. And
[1:11:42] >> if these panels hadn't been assessed,
[1:11:44] you'd miss this whole, you know,
[1:11:46] perspective on what's going on.
[1:11:48] collaborate because we're now doing
[1:11:49] we're doing a lot of imaging now. We're
[1:11:51] doing brain imaging. We have Ezra which
[1:11:52] measures brain MRIs, full body MRIs. We
[1:11:55] can do neuroquantum MRIs, brain age. And
[1:11:57] I think we're just beginning to kind of
[1:11:58] unpack all this
[1:12:00] >> and and and we want to come up with I
[1:12:01] think I I like you know like you can get
[1:12:03] a cardiovascular risk score. We should
[1:12:05] be able to get a brain health
[1:12:06] >> brain health score. I really should
[1:12:09] combine blood biomarkers, genetics, uh,
[1:12:12] and and imaging in one,
[1:12:14] >> you know, informed data set that we can
[1:12:17] watch over time and learn and it'll be a
[1:12:19] vehicle for scientific discovery and
[1:12:20] understanding. It's kind of an exciting
[1:12:22] time. And I I just want to finish by
[1:12:24] talking a little bit about your project
[1:12:25] called AI4 AI4 AD, which is means
[1:12:28] artificial intelligence for Alzheimer's
[1:12:30] disease.
[1:12:31] >> And and you know, we we've hit a dead
[1:12:33] end. I mean, we we've spent billions,
[1:12:35] literally billions of dollars of federal
[1:12:37] money on hundreds and hundreds of
[1:12:39] studies and have come up with bupkas as
[1:12:40] far as I'm concerned. Like just failure,
[1:12:42] failure, failure, failure. The, you
[1:12:44] know, great drugs now maybe extend the
[1:12:48] time to get in a nursing home by a few
[1:12:49] months. That's like a that's a win.
[1:12:51] That's ridiculous. So, we're we're we're
[1:12:53] basically failing and and and and we're
[1:12:55] not basically looking in the right
[1:12:56] place. The same is true with with this
[1:12:58] amaloid hypothesis. We're just barking
[1:13:00] up the wrong tree. I'm wondering, you
[1:13:02] know, with with your work with a AI4D,
[1:13:05] you're trying to look more broadly at
[1:13:07] genetics, brain scans, biomarkers, kind
[1:13:10] of not having such a a a prejudice view
[1:13:13] of what the causality is to be able to
[1:13:16] understand actually maybe we're
[1:13:18] rethinking about this wrong and how do
[1:13:19] we rethink this whole problem. So, so
[1:13:22] what are we learning about this and tell
[1:13:23] us about like the fact that
[1:13:25] >> you know Alzheimer's is a name of a
[1:13:27] syndrome but it there's many causes and
[1:13:29] there's many subtypes that you're
[1:13:31] finding and this is classic in
[1:13:32] functional medicine we like you just be
[1:13:34] because you know the name of the disease
[1:13:35] you don't know what's wrong with you
[1:13:36] it's just a label that we give to people
[1:13:38] who share a set of symptoms or pathology
[1:13:39] so it's medicine by pathology and
[1:13:41] geography not by mechanism or cause so
[1:13:44] so tell us about like briefly what what
[1:13:46] is this AI4D project what are you
[1:13:47] finding what are we learning
[1:13:49] >> well I I I think I mean you you you you
[1:13:51] saw the full perspective of this of this
[1:13:53] at a at a very early time point. I mean
[1:13:55] you you know the theory behind it and
[1:13:57] the evidence behind it and each of these
[1:13:59] new observations coming from neuroiming
[1:14:01] or from blood tests is sort of you're
[1:14:04] validating and proving this is true and
[1:14:05] you one of the points that you made on
[1:14:07] on subtyping dementia.
[1:14:10] >> So if somebody um has amaloid building
[1:14:13] up in their brain I mean that's one
[1:14:14] particular pathological process. But if
[1:14:17] you look at autopsy of people that have
[1:14:19] donated their brain to science, there's
[1:14:21] a number of things going on. I mean,
[1:14:23] some of these people don't have amaloid.
[1:14:24] They don't have these these deposits
[1:14:26] that that are the the target of a lot of
[1:14:27] the therapies. They they have other
[1:14:29] things. There's something called Louis
[1:14:30] bodies. There's a protein called sucle
[1:14:34] like a combo of Parkinson's and
[1:14:35] Alzheimer's.
[1:14:35] >> Yes. And there's another one that's very
[1:14:37] very very recently discovered TDP43. So
[1:14:40] there's something called late. It's a
[1:14:42] type of dementia that has a different
[1:14:44] pattern in the brain. So rather than the
[1:14:46] memory system being hit first,
[1:14:48] >> you know, the the frontal and other
[1:14:49] areas. Now on a brain scan, you can say,
[1:14:51] well, look, that that doesn't look like
[1:14:53] the same thing
[1:14:54] >> as the the amaloid treatments are able
[1:14:56] to treat. That looks like a different
[1:14:58] thing.
[1:14:59] >> So one of the ways that AI can help. I
[1:15:01] mean, AI is terrific at seeing patterns.
[1:15:03] Humans are pretty good at seeing
[1:15:05] patterns, but AI doesn't tire. It can
[1:15:07] look at millions of scans. I mean, it's
[1:15:09] it's got a lot of time on its hands. So
[1:15:11] you could say look could could you could
[1:15:13] you tell me if there's anything in the
[1:15:15] scan that would have found these Louis
[1:15:17] bodies or the sinucan or I mean you you
[1:15:20] you mentioned the the metabolic I mean
[1:15:22] also evident and and the AI can can pair
[1:15:26] these things in vast numbers. I mean
[1:15:28] vast numbers and and you know you you
[1:15:31] know if you go to an airport and you
[1:15:33] come back in and there's a a biometrics
[1:15:35] thing that tells it to freaks me out. It
[1:15:36] tells it to freaks me out. Well, the the
[1:15:38] AI that does that, I mean, it's using a
[1:15:41] lot of information. It doesn't just say
[1:15:43] how tall is this. I mean, there's a lot
[1:15:44] of information. So, in much the same way
[1:15:46] it can use the scan. Yeah.
[1:15:47] >> Pair it up with a pathology. Same same
[1:15:49] kind of technology.
[1:15:50] >> Yeah. So the reason I'm saying that
[1:15:52] that's very important is if the
[1:15:54] diagnosis is refined and personalized
[1:15:57] and subtype I mean you know this the the
[1:16:00] treatment that it's most sensible to
[1:16:02] offer a patient with that particular
[1:16:04] type of dementia may be very different
[1:16:05] than what they're being offered uh
[1:16:07] today. Yeah. If they have amaloid, sure.
[1:16:10] If they have a primarily vascular type
[1:16:13] of dementia, you know, the the cardiac,
[1:16:15] the metabolic, the lifestyle factors are
[1:16:17] going to be important. And you said
[1:16:18] this, even being proactive, if we know a
[1:16:21] certain fraction of people are likely uh
[1:16:24] to get these vascular diseases. I mean,
[1:16:26] you you have exactly the right approach
[1:16:28] and it's something they can do today.
[1:16:30] It's not something they're going to find
[1:16:31] out later only. I mean, they can look at
[1:16:33] this today and look at the readout.
[1:16:35] >> It's amazing. So this whole project is
[1:16:36] is using AI and large scale brain data,
[1:16:40] biomarker data to maybe genetic data,
[1:16:43] metabolomic data, proteomic data
[1:16:45] basically to look at how to diagnose and
[1:16:47] pro create prognosis and treat a broad
[1:16:50] range of neurologic and psychiatric
[1:16:51] conditions. It's really a new era. You
[1:16:54] know the joke in neurology is that the
[1:16:58] typical neur neurologist basic way of
[1:17:00] practicing is diagnose and adios.
[1:17:03] [laughter]
[1:17:05] Have you heard that?
[1:17:05] >> No, I haven't.
[1:17:06] >> You haven't heard that? I haven't heard
[1:17:07] that because there's nothing neurology.
[1:17:09] They're really good at diagnosing,
[1:17:11] >> but there's not a lot of tools in the
[1:17:12] toolkit. You have Parkinson's, you have
[1:17:13] Alzheimer's, you're kind of screwed.
[1:17:15] >> And so now we're in a different era.
[1:17:18] It's no longer diagnosed
[1:17:21] and and buenos. [laughter]
[1:17:23] >> It's good news. And you you have you
[1:17:26] have readouts that you can demonstrate
[1:17:28] the correction of many of these
[1:17:30] processes. I I think I think it's
[1:17:32] terrific. and and AI is helping us
[1:17:33] because you know it's so much data it's
[1:17:35] so much information it's so much noise
[1:17:37] like it's you know a human brain can't
[1:17:39] process all that and so I think this is
[1:17:41] why it's such an exciting moment in
[1:17:43] medicine and science because you know
[1:17:46] we've been in the dark ages like really
[1:17:48] dark ages I mean just just to paint a
[1:17:50] picture like you know the average doctor
[1:17:52] is still practicing like Norman
[1:17:54] Rockwell's doctor in the in the painting
[1:17:55] where you know just the stethoscope
[1:17:57] listening to different parts of the body
[1:17:58] maybe a physical exam okay we have some
[1:18:00] imaging a few blood tests like maybe 20
[1:18:02] 30 maybe if you do a little more. I
[1:18:05] mean, we're really not looking at the
[1:18:06] scope of what's going on. We have 20,000
[1:18:08] genes. We have 5 million variations in
[1:18:10] those genes. We have 6,000 metabolites.
[1:18:12] We have tens of thousands of proteins.
[1:18:13] We have a microbiome that's got 40
[1:18:16] trillion cells with [clears throat] 10
[1:18:18] times much genetic material as our own
[1:18:20] genes. We've got the metabolites from
[1:18:22] all that in our blood. We have all these
[1:18:25] biomarkers we can measure now that we
[1:18:26] couldn't measure before. just so much
[1:18:28] data and and any including me I I've
[1:18:31] seen more data than most doctors because
[1:18:33] I've done so much diagnostic testing on
[1:18:35] so many people over so many decades and
[1:18:37] I I have my own little AI pattern
[1:18:40] recognition thing but it's li very
[1:18:42] limited when it when it comes down to it
[1:18:44] in terms of of what AI can do and what
[1:18:47] it actually understands and I I think
[1:18:49] we're l just at the beginning and I
[1:18:51] think function health is is really
[1:18:53] leading the way I believe to disrupt all
[1:18:54] this thinking and to collect large data
[1:18:56] test. I mean, you you I I would imagine
[1:19:00] like to get the data that you've got is
[1:19:02] been billions of dollars of investment
[1:19:04] to get all this imaging and genetic
[1:19:06] material and all this,
[1:19:08] >> right? And yet, and yet people now are
[1:19:10] paying $365 and giving us the
[1:19:12] information and it's their data, but
[1:19:14] we're able to kind of go, okay, what can
[1:19:16] we learn that can help you? How do we
[1:19:18] use this data to help you learn about
[1:19:20] your body and what to do about it? It's
[1:19:21] so it's such an exciting moment. I I'm
[1:19:23] just I
[1:19:24] >> It's amazing. And I I think you're
[1:19:25] right, Mark. I mean you you know to
[1:19:27] correct to collect the correct data like
[1:19:29] you got to look at the right things like
[1:19:30] you could collect a lot of information
[1:19:32] that is tangential but if you look at
[1:19:35] these blood markers if you have a
[1:19:37] database that is so rich that the
[1:19:39] patterns that matter can be pulled out
[1:19:41] and then all of these different
[1:19:42] corrective actions I mean it it it's
[1:19:44] it's wonderful for scientists I mean
[1:19:46] it's a a really great idea to to be able
[1:19:48] to
[1:19:49] >> I I I believe that that people should
[1:19:51] should get their blood work and and
[1:19:52] that's why I created functional health
[1:19:54] and should get a detailed panel
[1:19:56] imaging is a little more controversial
[1:19:58] and you this is your life. What do you
[1:20:00] say to people who are saying, "Oh, you
[1:20:02] shouldn't bother looking and and it's a
[1:20:03] waste of money and time because I do
[1:20:06] think that it's valuable to get imaging
[1:20:07] on yourself."
[1:20:07] >> I think you're right, Mark. I mean,
[1:20:09] people who care about their health, who
[1:20:12] are healthy today, might want to look
[1:20:14] into their future health. What What is
[1:20:16] the downside? I mean, you you've said
[1:20:17] this before. You know, if you if you
[1:20:20] have a brain scan and it finds something
[1:20:22] that you can treat, I mean, why why not?
[1:20:24] I mean, that seems like a useful thing
[1:20:25] to do. I have had countless times when
[1:20:28] I've had a blood test and it's it's
[1:20:30] revealed something that is fixable for
[1:20:32] me. I mean, I I either, you know,
[1:20:33] vitamin is off or cholesterol was too
[1:20:36] high and now we're fixing it.
[1:20:38] >> And I I feel like, you know, no, nobody
[1:20:40] would claim that you should just go
[1:20:42] through life oblivious to all of these
[1:20:44] things that you could fix. somebody be
[1:20:46] no people have different points of view
[1:20:48] on this but at least you've made this
[1:20:51] landscape available to people who are
[1:20:53] interested in availing themselves of it
[1:20:55] and you you have positive proof that
[1:20:57] it's I mean there's testimonials of this
[1:20:59] >> it's true it's it's pretty it's pretty
[1:21:01] rewarding to see how many people's lives
[1:21:03] have been improved and saved just by
[1:21:04] knowing their data and I'm really proud
[1:21:07] to have co-ounded function health and be
[1:21:09] working with our team of 500 people to
[1:21:11] make this a reality for everybody and
[1:21:13] you know I hope we can collaborate in
[1:21:15] this. Uh I'm I'm excited to kind of
[1:21:17] share more what we're doing and thank
[1:21:18] you so much for your work and Enigma is
[1:21:20] such an incredible project. I I just
[1:21:22] sort of overwhelmed when I first learned
[1:21:23] about it and I think you know you're you
[1:21:25] know the fact that you're coming to the
[1:21:26] same conclusions that I did 20 years ago
[1:21:28] or 25 years ago is like so rewarding. So
[1:21:31] [laughter]
[1:21:31] >> well thank you Mark. Thank you for what
[1:21:33] you do. I appreciate it very much.
[1:21:35] >> Thanks so much. And people can learn
[1:21:36] more about your work where
[1:21:37] >> they can look up enigma. So if they put
[1:21:40] into the internet enigma and brain and
[1:21:42] there might be a disorder or disease
[1:21:43] that they're interested in that they'll
[1:21:44] find us.
[1:21:45] >> Enigma. So it's enigma. Just go enigma.
[1:21:48] What?
[1:21:48] >> Enig enigma. Well, enigma.ini because
[1:21:51] it's the Institute of Neuroiming and
[1:21:53] Informatics uh usc of Southern
[1:21:56] California.edu.
[1:21:58] >> Okay. We'll put that link in the show
[1:21:59] notes, but it's it's an incredible
[1:22:01] project. Uh thank you for doing it and
[1:22:02] thanks for all your work.
[1:22:04] >> Thanks Mark. Much appreciated. Thank
[1:22:05] you.
[1:22:06] >> Hey everybody, it's Dr. Mark here. I'm
[1:22:08] so excited to share that my new book is
[1:22:09] officially available for pre-order today
[1:22:12] after more than 30 years of practicing
[1:22:14] medicine and caring for tens of
[1:22:15] thousands of patients. I've written the
[1:22:17] book that brings everything together
[1:22:19] that I've learned about helping people
[1:22:21] get healthy and stay healthy as they
[1:22:23] age. It's called 100, what to do today
[1:22:25] to live 100 healthy years. It's a whole
[1:22:28] body guide to living 100 healthy years.
[1:22:30] It's grounded in a new understanding of
[1:22:32] how our bodies work. It's the new map of
[1:22:34] the body and inside I walk you through
[1:22:36] the seven core systems that drive your
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[1:22:42] understand the signals your body's been
[1:22:43] sending you all along. Now, a lot of
[1:22:45] what's in the book I learned the hard
[1:22:47] way through my own body when I got sick.
[1:22:49] The medicine that I trained in did not
[1:22:52] have any of the answers I needed. So, I
[1:22:54] had to go looking for them myself. And
[1:22:56] that search became my life's work. This
[1:22:58] book brings together decades of my
[1:23:00] learning from my patients, from the
[1:23:02] scientific research and scouring that
[1:23:04] from the things I got wrong and the
[1:23:05] things I had to rethink along the way. I
[1:23:07] don't want you to have to struggle the
[1:23:09] way I did to find those answers. So much
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[1:23:13] outside your doctor's office. And I want
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[1:23:16] care for yourself every day. I put so
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[1:23:20] really excited to finally share it with
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[1:23:28] sold. Go get a copy. Please support me.
[1:23:30] And this is my life's work.