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Inspiration

Birthmarks and Past Lives: What Stevenson's Cases Reveal

TT
The Telepathy Tapes
Oct 28, 2026
8 min read

From The Telepathy Tapes

Watch · 6

In a wooden display case at the University of Virginia's Division of Perceptual Studies, a photograph of a Thai boy hangs beside a machete. The boy has a mark on the back left of his head, and the researcher who photographed him, Ian Stevenson, spent years checking whether that mark matched the wound of a dead man the child said he had once been. This is the territory of the fourth episode of The Telepathy Tapes' Reincarnation Records, which follows a single question into the archive: when a young child is born with a birthmark or birth defect in the exact place where a previous person was fatally injured, what does that correspondence actually mean? The episode does not hand down a verdict. What it does is lay out the method, the numbers, and the cases that held Stevenson's attention for decades, and show why the body itself has become part of the argument about whether consciousness survives death.

Read · 7 sections

Why Start With the Memory and Not the Mark?

The most important thing to understand about this research is the order of operations. Host Kai Dickens returns to it more than once in the episode, and it is the detail that separates these investigations from a folk belief about marks on the skin. Investigators do not begin with a strange birthmark and go looking for a matching death. They begin with what the child says.

Families who contacted the division often reported specific details: an alleged past name, a village, the names of relatives, a previous profession, and in a majority of the archive's cases, how the earlier person died. Only after a deceased person has been identified from those details do researchers compare the child's body against that person's documented injuries. In Dickens's words, "The child's specific memories lead investigators to a deceased person first. Only after that identification is made do they compare any birthmarks or birth defects with documented verified injuries on that deceased person."

That sequencing matters because it limits the room for after-the-fact storytelling. A mark can look like almost anything once you already know how a person died. Starting with the memory, then checking the body, gives the investigation a fixed point.

What Counts as a Reincarnation-Linked Birthmark?

Ordinary birthmarks, the kind most people picture, are not what this research is about. Anthropologist Dr. Jim Matlock, who spent years studying Stevenson's work and investigating his own cases, drew the line sharply in the episode:

"Reincarnation-linked birthmarks tend to be not the usual kinds, not the kinds that come about through bumps in the birthing process or genetic. They're odd-looking things in odd places and they tend to be in the same place as the wound and very often it's a mortal wound."
— Dr. Jim Matlock, The Telepathy Tapes, Reincarnation Records Ep. 4 (approx. 1:39)

Matlock also made the skeptic's case for them. Marks on the skin have many ordinary origins. "An earring hole can produce a birthmark. Tattoo can produce a birthmark, right? Surgical scar can produce a birthmark and the thing is these birthmarks look identical to those scars," he said in the episode (approx. 2:27). Stevenson, according to Matlock, once documented a case involving a surgical scar on a man's back where the stitch holes were still visible. The lesson is that a scar's appearance alone proves nothing. The evidence depends on whether the mark lines up with a documented wound on a specific, identified person.

How Common Are These Marks in the Children Studied?

Dr. Philip Cosolino, who now co-leads the Past Life Memory Research Program at the division, gave the numbers that anchor the episode. Speaking in the episode (approx. 3:21), he said that "61% of our children can tell you how they think they died in this past life and of those 75% claim an unnatural often violent death. The raw numbers of those that have birthmarks is 44% of them and birth defects is 11% of them."

Those figures describe the archive, not a proof. They tell you that in the division's collection, a large share of children who report a past life also describe a violent death, and that many carry marks or defects. Dickens noted that the birthmark material is "no small thing," and Cosolino explained why Stevenson returned to it again and again.

"Everything else probably could have multiple explanations, but it becomes harder to make sense of how someone's fatal wound in another country years ago somehow shows up in a child and I think that to him was probably why you'd spend this much effort to write books of this size is that there's something here that he couldn't wrap his head around and neither can we."
— Dr. Philip Cosolino, The Telepathy Tapes, Reincarnation Records Ep. 4 (approx. 3:21)

Dickens put the scale of that effort in concrete terms: Stevenson's two volumes on the subject, Reincarnation and Biology, run to more than 2,000 pages together. That is the work of a researcher who kept finding the same pattern and could not set it aside.

What Did the Display Cases Show, and Who Was Ting?

The division keeps wooden display cases from Stevenson's fieldwork around the world. They hold photographs of children with missing digits and limbs, wounds, birthmarks, and defects, alongside weapons that match the injuries described in the cases. Dickens admitted the cases were unsettling, and that it was hard not to be pulled into the first photograph and trying to connect it to the weapons on the wall (approx. 4:08).

The case that anchors that photograph is Ting, a boy born in Thailand in 1924 with a mark at the back left of his head. Cosolino and his colleague walked Dickens through it on a follow-up call (approx. 4:55). Both of his parents, the episode says, had announcing dreams before he was born, in which a deceased person told them he was coming to them in a new life. The dream figure was the father's older brother, Pho. Stevenson's account of the family's reports rested on multiple sources, and by the time he became involved, the parents had already died.

The fatal wound is the core of the case. According to the episode, Ting's birthmark matched a machete blow to the back of the head suffered by a man in the community, and the autopsy report documented that injury. Dickens described the scar on the photograph as looking like a healed gash, and the machete displayed above it as the kind allegedly used. The point the researchers stressed is that the evidence was not an impression. It was a specific injury in a specific location, recorded before anyone compared it to the child.

What Does Announcing a Birth Look Like in These Families?

Dickens reminded listeners of a theme from the earlier episodes. Families often report two kinds of dreams. An announcing dream, in the episode's description, is one in which the consciousness of someone recently deceased alerts a parent that they have chosen that parent and are coming to be their baby. A departing dream usually features a recently dead person comforting a grieving relative and saying they will be reborn and can be found in a particular place. Dickens called them "wild" and "common" in these archives.

In Ting's case, the announcing dreams were the reason his family's story was told as a set of connected reports rather than a single memory. That structure is part of why the case remains a reference point for the division.

Why Does the Body Question Remain Open?

The episode is careful not to resolve the big question in the description: could the human body carry physical evidence that consciousness survives death? The researchers in the episode treat the birthmark correspondences as a serious problem for explanations based on coincidence, imagination, or suggestion, which is the same framing the episode's description uses. They do not claim the cases are settled. Cosolino's own phrasing, "neither can we," is an admission that the question still runs into a wall.

That wall is where the material becomes most useful for a reader. The cases raise questions about how a mark forms, how memories form, how families talk about the dead, and how investigators check what they are told. Each of those is a place where an honest skeptic and an honest believer can keep working. A reader does not need to decide the metaphysics in order to see that these records are unusually specific, and that the method of checking the body against an identified death is the piece that gives them weight.

Where to go from here

If the episode leaves you wanting the primary material, Stevenson's own books are where the cases are written out in full. The Telepathy Tapes' episode description points to several: Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation; the four-volume Cases of the Reincarnation Type, covering cases in India, Sri Lanka, Lebanon and Turkey, and Thailand and Burma; and the two-volume Reincarnation and Biology, which is where the birthmark material is concentrated. Reading the cases themselves, with their autopsy references and family interviews, is the fastest way to test what the episode claims against the record.

To follow the rest of the season, start with the earlier episodes. Dickens says each one builds on the last, and this episode depends on the announcing-dream and identification method introduced before it. Pay attention to how the researchers handle the difference between a memory that points to a person and a mark that points to a wound. That distinction is the spine of the whole conversation.

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Transcript

[0:00] Hey, it's Kai here. For every episode

[0:02] this season, I'll be personally logging

[0:04] into YouTube on Wednesday around 10:00

[0:06] a.m. Pacific time to personally reply to

[0:08] as many comments and questions as I can.

[0:09] So, can't wait to hear from you guys and

[0:11] to engage. Thanks. Hey everyone, this is

[0:13] Kai Dickens and you're listening to the

[0:15] Reincarnation Records from TTT Media.

[0:26] Welcome to episode 4. If you have not

[0:28] listened to our first three episodes, I

[0:30] highly encourage you to do so as

[0:31] everything in this season builds on what

[0:33] came before it. Last week we visited the

[0:36] University of Virginia's Division of

[0:38] Perceptual Studies, commonly referred to

[0:40] as DOPS, to see what 60 years of

[0:42] reincarnation research actually looks

[0:43] like. And historically, the goal of

[0:45] research there has been pretty

[0:46] straightforward. Document what a young

[0:48] child says they remember about a past

[0:50] life and then see whether those details

[0:52] can be matched to a real person who's

[0:53] died. And that match is made possible

[0:56] because the families that reach out to

[0:57] the department don't just have kids

[0:59] stating vague memories. They're often

[1:01] giving their alleged past name, the town

[1:03] where they say they lived, names of

[1:05] family members, their previous

[1:06] profession, and in a majority of the

[1:08] cases in the university's archive, they

[1:11] also describe how they died. And that's

[1:13] where this episode begins. Because in

[1:15] over a third of those cases, the

[1:17] children aren't just describing a death.

[1:19] They're born with a birthmark or birth

[1:20] defect that appears in the same place on

[1:23] their body where the person that they

[1:24] remember being was injured or killed.

[1:27] But before we go any further, I think

[1:29] there's an important distinction to

[1:30] make. Because when Stevenson

[1:32] reincarnation researchers talk about

[1:33] birthmarks, they're not the type that

[1:35] you're probably visualizing. Here's

[1:36] anthropologist Dr. Jim Matlock who spent

[1:39] years studying Stevenson's work and

[1:41] investigating his own cases as well.

[1:43] >> First of all, we appreciate not all

[1:45] birthmarks are linked to reincarnation.

[1:46] Reincarnation-linked birthmarks tend to

[1:49] be not the usual kinds, not the kinds

[1:52] that come about through bumps in the

[1:54] birthing process or genetic. They're

[1:56] odd-looking things in odd places and

[2:00] they tend to be in the same place as the

[2:03] wound and very often it's a mortal

[2:04] wound.

[2:05] >> And just to reiterate again, something

[2:07] important we learned last week.

[2:08] Researchers are not starting with a

[2:10] strange birthmark and then looking for

[2:11] someone who had a matching wound. The

[2:13] child's specific memories lead

[2:15] investigators to a deceased person

[2:17] first. Only after that identification is

[2:19] made do they compare any birthmarks or

[2:21] birth defects with documented verified

[2:23] injuries on that deceased person.

[2:25] >> It can be any sort of thing. An earring

[2:27] hole can produce a birthmark. Tattoo can

[2:29] produce a birthmark, right? Surgical

[2:31] scar can produce a birthmark and the

[2:33] thing is these birthmarks look identical

[2:36] to those scars. And Stevenson had a case

[2:39] with a surgical scar on a guy's back.

[2:41] You could actually see the holes, the

[2:43] stitch mark holes in the surgical thing.

[2:46] >> Wow. Dr. Philip Cosolino now co-leads

[2:48] the Past Life Memory Research Program at

[2:50] Dops and I quickly wanted to remind you

[2:52] of something he said last week.

[2:54] >> 61% of our children can tell you how

[2:57] they think they died in this past life

[2:59] and of those 75% claim an unnatural

[3:02] often violent death. The raw numbers of

[3:04] those that have birthmarks is 44% of

[3:07] them and birth defects is 11% of them.

[3:10] >> So, the birthmark phenomenon is no small

[3:12] thing. It's a phenomenon unto itself and

[3:14] of everything that Ian Stevenson

[3:15] encountered during his decades studying

[3:17] these children, this was the part of the

[3:19] research that eventually consumed him.

[3:21] Here's Dr. Cosolino again.

[3:23] >> These are the two volumes of

[3:24] Reincarnation and Biology, volume one,

[3:26] volume two. They're massive books that

[3:28] Ian wrote and published all about

[3:31] birthmarks and birth defects.

[3:32] >> And they it's over 2,000 pages.

[3:34] >> Yeah, they're both huge. This was I

[3:36] think the most compelling in his mind.

[3:38] Everything else probably could have

[3:40] multiple explanations, but it becomes

[3:42] harder to make sense of how someone's

[3:44] fatal wound in another country years ago

[3:47] somehow shows up in a child and I think

[3:50] that to him was probably why you'd spend

[3:52] this much effort to write books of this

[3:54] size is that there's something here that

[3:56] he couldn't wrap his head around and

[3:57] neither can we.

[3:58] >> In last week's episode, I briefly walked

[4:00] past some wooden display cases sitting

[4:03] right next to these massive books. At

[4:04] the time, I only glanced at what was

[4:06] inside, but at the end of our visit to

[4:08] Dops, we went back for a much closer

[4:10] look.

[4:10] >> So, the display cases are from the Ian

[4:13] era of investigations around the world.

[4:16] There are some gruesome photos of

[4:18] children and even young and this is an

[4:20] infant with missing limbs, missing

[4:23] digits and fingers, wounds, birthmarks

[4:26] and defects, and weapons.

[4:28] >> There's something obviously a little

[4:29] unsettling about these display cases,

[4:31] but standing next to them, I found

[4:33] myself drawn into the first photograph

[4:35] and trying to connect the dots of the

[4:36] various pictures in the case and the

[4:38] weapons on the wall.

[4:39] >> So, that case right there, that's a boy

[4:41] from Thailand and you can see the

[4:43] picture that Ian took there. There's a

[4:45] birthmark in the back left of his head.

[4:48] >> And though he says birthmark, what I see

[4:50] in this picture looks like a scar on the

[4:52] back of this person's head, almost like

[4:54] a gash that has healed.

[4:55] >> He claimed to have died from a machete

[4:59] hit to the back of his head and that was

[5:01] the birthmark that he was born with and

[5:03] Ian identified someone who matched this

[5:05] boy's story

[5:07] and sure enough that person had been

[5:09] killed with a machete hit to the back of

[5:11] his head and he found the autopsy's

[5:14] postmortem report and sure enough the

[5:16] scar matched what was on the autopsy

[5:18] report. That machete right above the

[5:20] photo is indicative of the kind that

[5:23] that was used allegedly.

[5:25] >> After our trip to the University of

[5:26] Virginia, I set up a call with Philip

[5:28] and Dr. Mary Etta Pelvinova, the other

[5:31] person who co-leads the past life

[5:32] research program at Dops. We spent a lot

[5:34] of time with her last week as well and I

[5:36] wanted them to walk me through in depth

[5:37] some of the birthmark cases that

[5:39] Stevenson studied and for the rest of

[5:40] this episode, we'll kind of be bouncing

[5:42] between that phone call and also some of

[5:44] the tape from when I was at Dops in

[5:45] person. And first, I asked if they could

[5:47] pull up more details about the boy in

[5:49] the picture that I saw in the display

[5:51] case, the one with the scar on the back

[5:52] of his head.

[5:53] >> Okay, so Ting was born in 1924 in

[5:57] Thailand with a scar on the back left of

[6:00] his head. Both of his parents had what

[6:02] we call announcing dreams. So, the

[6:05] mother and the father reported dreams

[6:08] well before Ting was born of a deceased

[6:12] person coming to them in their dream

[6:14] saying, "Hey, I'm going to be coming to

[6:17] you in a new life."

[6:19] >> We went through announcing dreams in

[6:20] detail last week, so I don't want to

[6:22] spend too much time on them, but just as

[6:24] a quick recap, in many of these cases,

[6:26] people, usually parents, report either

[6:28] having an announcing dream or a

[6:30] departing dream. As wild as it sounds,

[6:33] an announcing dream would be when the

[6:34] consciousness or soul of someone who's

[6:37] recently passed alerts parents that

[6:39] they've chosen them and they're coming

[6:40] to be their baby before they arrive. And

[6:43] a departing dream usually features

[6:45] someone who's recently died comforting

[6:47] the person grieving saying, "I'm going

[6:49] to be reborn and you can find me in XYZ

[6:52] location." It's just so fascinating and

[6:55] it's common.

[6:56] >> This is a within the same family case.

[6:58] The father's older brother was named

[7:00] Pho. Pho is the person who the mother

[7:04] and father both apparently were visited

[7:06] by in their dreams. Now, I want to be

[7:08] very clear. When Ian got involved with

[7:10] this case, the parents, the mother and

[7:12] father here, were already dead. So, this

[7:14] is what he was told from multiple

[7:16] sources that they had said occurred

[7:19] before Ting, their son, was born. Now,

[7:22] after Ting was born to these parents,

[7:25] they noticed distinct birthmarks and

[7:27] defects on his body. The most sort of

[7:30] obvious one was this back left head scar

[7:33] that was prominent and it looked like

[7:36] the remnant of having been hit with

[7:37] something sharp in the back of his head.

[7:39] And he also had had interesting right

[7:41] big toe malformation. I don't know what

[7:43] to call it really. It wasn't quite a

[7:45] defect, but it was a birthmark that

[7:47] wasn't quite right on his right big toe.

[7:50] And that will come into play in a

[7:51] second. Now, the thing that's really

[7:52] interesting is Foe, the father's older

[7:55] brother, who had apparently come to them

[7:57] in their dreams. That's the story. Had

[7:59] been killed by a machete/knife

[8:02] wound to the [snorts] back left of his

[8:04] head. Foe was killed about a year before

[8:06] Ting was born, and Ting, he was born 25

[8:10] km from where Foe died. And what we know

[8:13] now is that Foe was a cattle rustler. He

[8:16] was a cattle thief. And in 1923, he went

[8:19] into a village presumably to go steal a

[8:22] bull. The villagers in that village knew

[8:26] of Foe's crimes. And there was a posse

[8:29] of 30 people who came out to basically

[8:32] confront him. And in the course of that

[8:35] posse, he was hit in the back of the

[8:37] head with this large machete. And

[8:39] apparently, from where Ian could

[8:41] determine, died instantly. This is all

[8:43] basically confirmed by witnesses how

[8:46] this occurred.

[8:47] >> So, after the murder of Foe in a house

[8:49] about 25 km away, Foe's younger brother

[8:51] had a baby boy. And that boy is born

[8:53] with a birthmark that looks like a scar

[8:55] on the back of his head.

[8:57] >> As a child, Ting started saying, "I am

[9:00] Foe." He would say He would get very

[9:01] upset when people referred to him in the

[9:04] the Thai word for baby or boy or child.

[9:07] And he would get, "No, I'm Foe. That's

[9:09] my name."

[9:10] >> He pointed at the birthmark, and he

[9:11] would say, "This is from how I was

[9:14] killed." And he was very angry.

[9:16] >> Now, a little boy saying, "I'm Foe," and

[9:17] pointing to his head doesn't necessarily

[9:19] prove anything. What makes the case

[9:21] interesting is what came with that

[9:23] claim. Ting wasn't just pointing to the

[9:25] mark on his head and saying how he got

[9:26] it. He would also describe people and

[9:29] events from Foe's life that

[9:30] investigators could actually check

[9:32] against fact by talking to witnesses and

[9:34] looking at police reports.

[9:35] >> So, this little boy claimed that on the

[9:38] day this posse killed him, he hadn't

[9:40] done anything wrong and he was just in

[9:42] the village. So, this posse knew of his

[9:44] past [music] and killed him in cold

[9:47] blood on that day and that's why he

[9:49] apparently had this anger. Over time as

[9:53] an adult, he told Ian that revenge

[9:56] motivation waned, but he was still very

[9:58] upset about it even as an adult.

[10:00] >> And this idea of coming back angry or

[10:02] even wanting revenge is something that

[10:04] was brought up last week, too. And I

[10:06] have to admit that I'm having such a

[10:08] hard time making sense of it. For almost

[10:10] 2 years now, across different seasons of

[10:12] the Telepathy Tapes, we've heard so many

[10:13] accounts of what people describe as the

[10:15] other side. And the themes that come up

[10:17] again and again are the ego falling

[10:19] away, a sense of interconnectedness, and

[10:21] more than anything, complete acceptance

[10:24] and love. So, the idea that someone

[10:25] could die, come back, and still be

[10:28] furious at the people who killed them

[10:29] feels almost like the opposite of that.

[10:31] We've spent some time looking at

[10:33] near-death experiences and people often

[10:34] come back from those totally changed and

[10:36] more at peace and more loving. So, in

[10:39] these cases, I'm just wondering what on

[10:41] earth it all means. Does reincarnating

[10:43] and remembering what happened actually

[10:45] force someone to confront a lesson that

[10:46] they still need to learn? Or maybe

[10:48] remind them so they're kind of more set

[10:50] up to win regarding the spiritual growth

[10:52] they need to have? Or is there a more

[10:54] complete permanent afterlife that's more

[10:56] in line with what people describe in

[10:58] near-death experiences or that religions

[11:00] describe? And maybe that place is

[11:02] somehow different or a little higher up

[11:04] than whatever happens in between lives?

[11:06] Or maybe the answer's even more

[11:07] unsettling. Like, could holding onto

[11:09] anger itself or having unfinished

[11:11] business be part of what pulls us back

[11:13] so quickly? And then there's part of me

[11:15] that's like, well, maybe I'm trying to

[11:16] fit all of this into a spiritual

[11:17] framework when there's just so much

[11:19] ordinary explanation, which outside of

[11:20] coincidence, I can't figure out what

[11:22] that might be. So, I don't know. But I

[11:24] do want to assure you that before the

[11:26] end of the season, we're going to come

[11:28] back to this question and we'll hear

[11:29] from non-speaking individuals about what

[11:31] they understand about death and

[11:32] reincarnation. We'll hear from religious

[11:34] scholars from different traditions and

[11:36] speak with Laurel and Jackson, a medium

[11:38] whose work and claims about talking to

[11:39] the other side have been extensively

[11:41] double-blind tested and studied and

[11:44] researched as we looked at in season 2.

[11:46] So, we'll see if any of these people can

[11:48] help us understand something that right

[11:50] now feels like a total contradiction to

[11:52] me because if consciousness ultimately

[11:53] moves towards love and unity, why would

[11:55] someone come back angry and wanting

[11:57] revenge? But, I digress because we are

[12:00] at the University of Virginia and the

[12:01] team at DOPS is not trying to answer

[12:03] these spiritual questions. They are

[12:05] interested in investigation,

[12:06] documentation, and research. And so,

[12:08] what Philip brings up next is called

[12:10] private knowledge.

[12:11] >> He was 4 to 5 years old and he met this

[12:13] investigator

[12:15] and Tang immediately recognized him and

[12:17] said, "Oh, that's the person who's

[12:19] investigating me for my crimes." Called

[12:21] him by his name. Also correctly named

[12:24] many of the people that people in that

[12:26] village knew had killed Fo. So, he was

[12:28] able to actually say, "These are the

[12:30] people who were in that posse."

[12:32] >> So, the little boy was able to name the

[12:33] people that killed him.

[12:34] >> Yes, some of them. I'm not saying he

[12:35] knew all 30 of them.

[12:36] >> Right.

[12:37] >> The investigation knew who these people

[12:39] were and he apparently named a number of

[12:41] them accurately.

[12:43] >> And as he got older, he started sharing

[12:45] details and recognizing things and

[12:47] people that there's absolutely no

[12:48] explanation for.

[12:49] >> He recognized at the age of 5 the house

[12:52] that Fo lived in, objects that Fo

[12:54] possessed, even specific cattle based on

[12:58] their markings which ones had been Fo's

[13:00] and cuz again, he was born about a year

[13:02] after Fo died. When Tang was 7 years

[13:05] old, he was just on the side of a road

[13:07] walking around the village and he

[13:09] spotted a woman and he recognized her as

[13:12] Fo's daughter and he actually ended up

[13:15] convincing the daughter of this dead

[13:17] person that he claimed to be, told Ian

[13:20] that she was convinced based on their

[13:22] conversations that this was her father,

[13:24] Fo.

[13:26] Now again, remember this is all the same

[13:27] family. Ian is very clear in his writing

[13:30] about this case that there's always,

[13:32] whenever you're talking about a 25-mi km

[13:34] of a same family situation, there's

[13:36] always the opportunity for some of these

[13:40] kinds of things, recognizing cousins,

[13:42] recognizing objects or homes.

[13:45] >> So, Philip, how did like Foe's, you

[13:46] know, widow, his wife, react to news

[13:48] that her husband was back in the body of

[13:50] a toddler? I mean, did she believe it?

[13:53] >> Foe's surviving wife brought to Tang a

[13:56] bunch of objects, some of which belonged

[13:58] to Foe and some didn't. And Tang was

[14:01] accurately able to pick out the objects

[14:03] and was able to say, "That was mine.

[14:05] That was mine." And the surviving wife

[14:07] of Foe said, "Yeah, he got them all

[14:08] right. He knew which ones were Foe's and

[14:10] which ones weren't." He also,

[14:12] apparently, was able to talk with her

[14:14] about moments from their life that she

[14:16] told Ian were accurate, that he knew

[14:19] things that he shouldn't be able to

[14:20] know.

[14:21] >> Wow.

[14:21] >> And Ian did his best to verify and

[14:23] corroborate with others.

[14:25] >> Okay, then. So, Philip, why was the

[14:26] birthmark on Tang's toe in the file?

[14:28] >> Well, it turns out that Foe had injured

[14:31] his right foot on that toe some period

[14:35] before his death. Now, Tang claimed it

[14:37] was 10 years. Ian wasn't able to verify

[14:40] when that was, but apparently, multiple

[14:42] people who knew Foe said, "Oh, yeah, he

[14:45] had a real bad issue with that toe. It

[14:47] was infected and it was bad. It made his

[14:50] life difficult and we have a photo of

[14:52] that, too, where you can see on Tang his

[14:55] right foot the big toe has this mark on

[14:58] it where, apparently, people said, "Oh,

[14:59] yeah, Foe's right toe looked like that."

[15:02] >> I find this detail interesting because

[15:03] an infected toe is not some dramatic

[15:05] death wound. It's a nuisance. And this

[15:07] man, Foe, limped around with it for

[15:09] years and even died with it. And that's

[15:11] interesting to me because whatever this

[15:12] process is that we're investigating this

[15:14] season with these birthmarks and birth

[15:16] defects, it's clearly not just copying

[15:18] the moment someone died. It seems to be

[15:19] copying the significant injuries or

[15:21] moments the last body had been through.

[15:23] So, Philip, any other final notes on

[15:25] this case before we, you know, move on

[15:26] to another one?

[15:27] >> One thing that I thought was really

[15:28] interesting was that Ian spoke to the

[15:30] captain in the Royal Thai Army. Ting

[15:33] ended up being a sergeant for

[15:35] >> So, quickly Philip is fast-forwarding to

[15:37] when Ting, who claims to be the

[15:38] reincarnation of Fo, is a grown man.

[15:40] >> His captain said that Ting would claim

[15:42] that some property around their base

[15:45] really belonged to him. He came into

[15:47] that base basically saying all that land

[15:49] there is mine. And what he meant was it

[15:51] was Fo's. And the captain said that's

[15:53] actually true, and I'm not sure how he

[15:55] knows that.

[15:56] >> That's so wild. Last week we talked at

[15:58] length about how cases get investigated,

[16:00] and we're not going to rehash all of

[16:01] that, but I just want to reiterate how a

[16:03] strong case typically unfolds. So, it

[16:05] starts with a very young child talking

[16:07] about another life, often saying,

[16:09] "You're not my real parents," or "When I

[16:10] used to be big," or "I want to go see my

[16:12] real mom." And investigators only tend

[16:14] to get involved if they start giving

[16:15] specifics about names, places, how they

[16:18] died. And sometimes they carry over

[16:20] things as unexplainable as talents or

[16:22] preferences or even a language from that

[16:24] past life. When investigators have

[16:26] specific details, they then try to

[16:28] identify a deceased person whose life

[16:30] matches those memories. Only after that

[16:32] match is made do they compare the

[16:34] birthmark or birth defect, which are

[16:36] present in over a third of the cases,

[16:38] with either an autopsy report, police

[16:40] report, medical or family reports that

[16:42] detail the injuries, marks, or death

[16:44] wounds on that deceased person's body.

[16:46] And here's Dr. Ian Stevenson himself

[16:48] from a talk he did at UVA in 2004.

[16:50] >> The last 15 years, we've given more

[16:53] attention to the cases with birthmarks

[16:55] and birth defects because we've sought

[16:57] autopsy reports and been successful in

[16:59] 65 or 70 cases. And that consumes an

[17:03] immense amount of time in obtaining

[17:04] those. One has to drink cups of coffee

[17:07] with the bureaucrats who have access to

[17:10] the records, and then perhaps in

[17:12] addition give an American-made shirt to

[17:14] the clerk who will actually find the

[17:16] record, but it's all very worthwhile

[17:18] because an autopsy report in black and

[17:20] white made before the child in question

[17:23] was born and in many cases we find a

[17:25] close correspondence between the

[17:27] postmortem report and the birthmarks and

[17:30] birth defects.

[17:31] >> And as we discussed last week, it's

[17:33] often a multi-year investigation to

[17:35] verify a match because the majority of

[17:37] children remembering past lives do not

[17:40] come back to the same family. It

[17:41] happens, but it's not as common. Here's

[17:43] Dr. Coslino again.

[17:45] >> Only 20-some percent of our cases are

[17:47] within the same family and many of these

[17:50] cases are far removed in distance

[17:52] geographically from where this past

[17:55] person seems to have lived. And you have

[17:56] to remember these are cases from the

[17:58] '60s, '70s, '80s. There was no internet

[18:01] and these are in communities, very poor

[18:02] communities. So there was no travel.

[18:05] Their lives were in their village and

[18:07] that's what they knew.

[18:08] >> Right. Right. And that's important

[18:10] because it makes it harder to say it was

[18:11] just coincidence or something the kid

[18:12] heard.

[18:13] >> When you can determine that the child

[18:15] and the family didn't know who that

[18:16] person was and they lived in another

[18:17] country, then I don't know anymore if

[18:19] it's just coincidence. I also don't like

[18:21] that word as much. People like to say

[18:23] this is all coincidence, but coincidence

[18:24] isn't really

[18:26] It's describing. It's not explaining.

[18:28] >> I actually love that and I've been

[18:29] repeating my own version of it ever

[18:30] since, which is that, you know, calling

[18:32] something a coincidence is not a

[18:34] finding. It's a decision to stop

[18:36] counting. We're going to stop and take a

[18:38] quick break here, but when we come back,

[18:40] we'll look at birthmark cases involving

[18:41] people from entirely different families

[18:43] where explanations like insider info or

[18:45] shared knowledge become harder to apply.

[18:52] Welcome back. We're going to pick up

[18:53] with the phone call I had with Marietta

[18:55] and Philip after leaving Tops where they

[18:57] walked me through a few birthmark cases

[18:59] in detail. So I'd love for you to walk

[19:00] through a few cases that are not same

[19:02] family cases, you know, and actually

[19:04] also where Dr. Ian Stevenson was you

[19:06] kind of first at to the scene.

[19:08] >> Okay, so I'll start with this case from

[19:09] Thailand and the child's name was

[19:11] Chennai. Chennai was born in 1967

[19:15] and he had two birthmarks on his head. I

[19:18] will show you this picture from the

[19:19] files. As you can see, there's a small

[19:22] birthmark in the back of his head and

[19:24] then a larger birthmark in the front of

[19:27] his head just above his left eye.

[19:29] >> So, Philip, what were some of the early

[19:30] statements he was saying?

[19:31] >> When he was 3 years old, he would

[19:33] declare himself regularly as "I am the

[19:36] teacher. I am the teacher. Let me teach

[19:38] you all." And would start then telling

[19:41] his grandmother, who actually raised

[19:43] him, that I was a teacher, not just that

[19:45] I am a teacher, but that when I once was

[19:48] an adult, I was a teacher. At 3 and 1/2,

[19:51] he started begging his grandmother to

[19:53] take him to see his previous family. He

[19:56] would say "My parents, my wife, my

[19:58] children." And he actually said a name.

[20:01] He said "I was once a person named

[20:02] Buakai."

[20:04] And that he had been a teacher, but he

[20:06] had been shot and killed in the head.

[20:08] >> Okay, those are a lot of specifics for a

[20:10] 3-year-old, and specifics are the only

[20:12] reason any of these cases can be checked

[20:14] at all. Because if a child says I live

[20:15] somewhere, that gets you nowhere. But

[20:17] when they give you a village and a name

[20:18] and an occupation, as an investigator,

[20:20] you are off to the races.

[20:22] >> Before he turned four, the grandmother

[20:24] capitulated and said "Okay, we're going

[20:26] to go to this village. You're asking too

[20:28] much, so we're going to go." What's

[20:30] interesting in the notes is they arrived

[20:32] near the village off the the bus,

[20:34] however they got there. It wasn't

[20:36] actually the proper village. And

[20:38] Chennai, as not even a 4-year-old,

[20:41] basically started leading his

[20:43] grandmother as if he knew where he was

[20:44] going, and he walked up to a house, and

[20:47] he said "This is where I used to live."

[20:50] And it turns out that

[20:52] Buakai was a real person who lived in

[20:55] that house, and the mother and father of

[20:58] Buakai still lived there. They were

[21:00] deceased person's parents, and they told

[21:03] Ian and other investigators that Buakai

[21:06] had been a school teacher, who was shot

[21:08] and killed in 1962. So, that was 5 years

[21:11] before Chinai was born.

[21:13] >> And then, Buakai's parents looked at the

[21:15] boy's head.

[21:16] >> The parents of Buakai saw the birthmarks

[21:18] on Chinai's head, and they were blown

[21:21] away, because they thought, "Well,

[21:22] that's what we saw in terms of our son

[21:25] when he was murdered." And they were so

[21:27] impressed that they invited him back.

[21:29] And on a second visit, Chinai was able

[21:32] to recognize other family members who

[21:34] they had invited to come, because

[21:36] obviously at this point they're like,

[21:37] "Oh, this is a story. Maybe this is

[21:39] Buakai coming back." And Chinai

[21:41] recognized family members and objects.

[21:43] Again, people would show, "Did this

[21:45] belong to you or not?" And he did very

[21:47] well, apparently, according to the

[21:48] informants.

[21:49] >> Okay, so just pausing for a second.

[21:51] Like, who was Buakai? Because it's hard

[21:52] for me to believe that he was like the

[21:53] beloved town science teacher, if he was

[21:55] shot in the head.

[21:56] >> He was a teacher. He was also someone

[21:59] who was notorious for having many

[22:01] affairs with married women.

[22:03] And apparently, I'm going to use the

[22:05] modern term of a side gig,

[22:08] uh side hustle, as a local gangster. So,

[22:11] the wild west of Thailand in the '60s.

[22:14] Because of this notorious criminal side

[22:18] gig, he had been shot once before at a

[22:21] fair, and survived, and realized, "Okay,

[22:24] like this other part of my life is

[22:25] starting to infringe on my well-being."

[22:28] So, he tried his best to avoid it again.

[22:30] He literally relocated where he did his

[22:32] teaching. He thought, "Well, maybe I

[22:34] need to move to a different village,

[22:35] teach somewhere else where they don't

[22:36] know who I am." And he did that. But

[22:39] then, in January of 1962, Buakai was

[22:42] riding his bicycle to work, to go teach,

[22:44] and someone came up from behind him and

[22:47] shot him from behind in the head, and he

[22:50] died instantly at the scene.

[22:52] >> [music]

[22:53] >> He was examined by a doctor, as

[22:55] relatives of Buakai also were there and

[22:58] saw this. And these were the

[22:59] documentations of how the sort of wounds

[23:02] occurred in Buas death.

[23:04] >> And these wounds appear to correspond

[23:05] with Chenai's birthmarks, [music]

[23:07] and not just where they were located,

[23:08] but the forensic characteristics of the

[23:10] injuries themselves.

[23:11] >> On the back you have the entrance wound,

[23:14] [music] which is almost always, if not

[23:16] always, smaller than the exit wound. And

[23:18] then it [music] releases with a larger

[23:20] exit wound. And they were perfectly in

[23:22] line with each other, and according to

[23:24] all the informants, were exactly in the

[23:26] places that Buakai had been shot. He

[23:29] also made, again, recognitions of

[23:31] objects. He made statements about where

[23:33] he lived, about realities narratives of

[23:35] his life. All told, about 19 of those

[23:38] that Ian was able to say seem to be

[23:40] accurate to this deceased person's life.

[23:43] >> After hearing Chenai's story, especially

[23:45] right on the heels of Tings, my

[23:46] questions were honestly becoming more

[23:48] metaphysical. Because if any of this is

[23:50] real, what does it mean that the

[23:51] remembered lives in both of these cases

[23:53] belong to people who'd done some pretty

[23:55] harmful and dishonest things. And I just

[23:57] can't help but wondering if then maybe

[24:00] remembering is part of the point. Like,

[24:03] did the consciousness of these unsavory

[24:05] guys come back remembering what happened

[24:07] because it gives them a better chance to

[24:09] correct something or grow beyond whoever

[24:11] they were before? And then that thought

[24:13] leads me even further down a rabbit hole

[24:14] where I start to wonder if Earth, this

[24:16] place we keep coming back to to work

[24:18] things out, is almost like a kind of

[24:20] purgatory. And if the state people

[24:22] describe in near death experiences, that

[24:24] beautiful place with an overwhelming

[24:26] sense of love and unity, God, source,

[24:28] whatever you want to call it, is a more

[24:30] permanent place and the place that's

[24:32] more real than here.

[24:34] But I digress because Stevenson was

[24:36] admittedly not interested in the healing

[24:38] aspect of these cases. He was interested

[24:40] in something much more evidential, the

[24:42] gunshot wounds. Because within the

[24:44] already strange world of birthmarks, the

[24:46] bullet hole cases almost form a category

[24:48] of their own. And Stevenson became

[24:50] fascinated by these cases precisely

[24:52] because those two holes gave him

[24:54] something very unusually specific to

[24:56] compare. Here's Dr. Stevenson from a

[24:58] talk he gave in 2004.

[24:59] >> We have about 15 cases where there are

[25:02] two birthmarks corresponding to bullet

[25:04] wounds of entry and exit.

[25:06] >> It wasn't just, you know, whether a mark

[25:07] appeared in roughly the right place, but

[25:09] whether two marks appeared in the right

[25:11] places in the right alignment.

[25:13] >> Forensic pathologists know that nearly

[25:14] always you shoot somebody, the bullet

[25:17] wound of entry is small and round, and

[25:19] the bullet wound of exit is large and

[25:22] irregular in shape. And that's the way

[25:23] our birthmarks and about half of these

[25:26] cases they correspond exactly that way.

[25:29] >> And Stevenson would see this bullet hole

[25:30] birthmark pattern enough that if he met

[25:32] a kid who talked about being shot and

[25:34] there's only one birthmark, he'd look

[25:36] for a second one. Here's Dr. Jim Matlock

[25:38] again.

[25:38] >> And in a couple of cases Stevenson

[25:40] actually predicted that. He'd learned

[25:42] that we often see them in pairs, and so

[25:44] when people showed him one and told them

[25:46] that it was a result of that, he said,

[25:47] "Well, do they have a birthmark in the

[25:49] corresponding place on the back side of

[25:50] the body?" And sure enough, they did.

[25:51] >> And here's Dr. Philip Coslino again.

[25:54] >> There was one case where Ian found from

[25:57] the autopsy report of this past person

[25:59] that there would potentially be another

[26:01] wound on the back of a head. The boy had

[26:03] a thick head of hair, and the mother

[26:05] claimed that the boy was born with a

[26:07] full head of hair. And Ian literally

[26:09] said, "Can we shave the boy's head?" And

[26:11] they shaved the boy's head, and then

[26:12] sure enough, where the postmortem report

[26:14] said there would be, there was another

[26:15] birthmark there. So, they didn't even

[26:17] know that it was there.

[26:19] >> It is hard for me to explain that away.

[26:21] And even still, my brain does something

[26:23] that is like, ah, I just can't believe

[26:24] it because there's no way to explain it.

[26:27] And it's like, what's funny to me is

[26:28] that Stevenson was also really skeptical

[26:30] about all of this at first. In fact, for

[26:33] the first part of his career when he

[26:34] encountered reports of birthmarks in the

[26:36] field, he largely dismissed them. Here's

[26:38] anthropologist Dr. Jim Matlock again.

[26:40] >> He had read about birthmarks in the

[26:42] older literature and he sort of

[26:43] [clears throat] dismissed them. So, when

[26:45] Stevenson first went to India, he was

[26:47] not prepared for the birthmarks. It was

[26:49] only when he got to studying the Klinkit

[26:51] Indians in Alaska, from birth marks are

[26:53] very important. They check newborns for

[26:55] birth marks as clues to their

[26:57] identities. And they taught him then on

[26:59] some of this and he started looking at

[27:02] birth marks with the same rigor as he

[27:05] brought to the other cases.

[27:07] >> So if you're having a hard time out

[27:08] there, just know the father of

[27:09] reincarnation research had looked at

[27:11] these cases at first and also set them

[27:13] aside. But what changed his mind was

[27:15] time with natives in Alaska because

[27:17] they've been paying close attention to

[27:19] birth marks for hundreds if not

[27:20] thousands of years. And decades later

[27:22] Jim Matlock, who's in this episode, says

[27:24] he also dismissed birth marks at first.

[27:26] >> I was willing to keep an open mind about

[27:29] maybe there could be reincarnation

[27:30] consciousness or something like that.

[27:32] But the birth marks, that was a bridge

[27:35] too far for me. I was reading so many of

[27:38] these and it actually took me some

[27:40] years, six years, before it finally sunk

[27:43] in and I realized I need to take them

[27:46] seriously and had to start figuring out

[27:48] how they could come about.

[27:49] >> So by this point in the episode, we've

[27:51] time talking about marks on the skin

[27:53] itself. But in the docs archive,

[27:55] Stevenson documented another genre of

[27:58] cases and these are children born with

[28:00] parts of their bodies malformed,

[28:02] underdeveloped, or in some cases

[28:04] entirely missing. So I asked Dr. Marieta

[28:06] Pevelinova who co-leads the past life

[28:08] memory research program to walk us

[28:10] through one of those.

[28:11] >> We'll talk about the case of Lekh Pal

[28:13] who is an Indian boy who was born with

[28:17] his fingers on his right hand missing.

[28:21] So Lekh Pal was a boy who was born in

[28:24] December of 1971

[28:27] in Indian village called Nagla Devi. He

[28:30] was born in a very simple family. His

[28:33] parents were illiterate of very modest

[28:36] economic means. As soon as he was born,

[28:39] his family noticed that the fingers on

[28:41] his right hand were missing. So it

[28:44] seemed to be a birth defect. So

[28:46] jokingly, they decided to call him Lekh

[28:50] Pal because the phrase Lekh Pal means in

[28:53] Hindi a tax collector whose hand had

[28:56] been cut off by a taxpayer.

[28:58] >> Did he start saying anything kind of

[29:00] evidential or interesting early on?

[29:03] >> About the age of 1, he started saying to

[29:06] his mom this phrase of Tal Tal and how

[29:09] he wanted to go to Tal Tal. So, one of

[29:12] the very first things he said about

[29:14] presumably this past life was, "I will

[29:16] not stay here and this is not my home."

[29:19] Again, very typical of these children.

[29:21] And then the sister started inquiring

[29:23] about his missing fingers and he started

[29:26] talking about this past life where he

[29:28] had had his fingers cut off in a fodder

[29:31] chopping machine.

[29:32] >> Here's a quick clip from the BBC.

[29:34] >> In a village in northern India in the

[29:36] 1970s, a small boy lost the fingers of

[29:38] his right hand in a fodder chopping

[29:40] machine. Later, the child died. But in a

[29:43] neighboring village, a boy was born who

[29:45] claimed memories of the dead child's

[29:47] life.

[29:47] >> So, here's the story of the other boy,

[29:49] the boy who has died.

[29:50] >> His name was Hukum Singh. When he was

[29:53] about 3 and 1/2, his dad was working

[29:56] this fodder chopping machine that was

[29:58] used to basically cut up different crops

[30:02] to feed cattle. And normally the machine

[30:05] uses two people to operate, but the dad

[30:07] was trying to do that all by himself and

[30:10] he didn't see his son Hukum kind of

[30:13] sneak up and he thought he was helping,

[30:16] but he basically put his right hand

[30:18] through the machine and his fingers were

[30:21] immediately chopped off.

[30:24] His hand was stitched up and

[30:26] he recovered from that injury, but

[30:30] unfortunately, what happened is about 10

[30:32] months after this accident, Hukum got

[30:36] sick overnight almost very unexpectedly

[30:40] and Hukum Singh essentially died in his

[30:43] father's arms. So, very very tragic end.

[30:47] So, only 10 months after the accident

[30:50] with his fingers.

[30:51] >> Oh, so awful.

[30:53] >> So, after this happened, Hukum's mom was

[30:56] just grief-stricken and just

[30:59] inconsolable. In her grief, she actually

[31:02] reported having two dreams in which

[31:05] Hukum purportedly showed up to her in

[31:09] what we would call an announcing dream.

[31:11] And he tried to console her, comfort her

[31:14] in the dreams. And he told her that he

[31:17] would be back to her. Can you imagine

[31:20] that as a parent?

[31:21] >> No, I can't. And I actually wonder, do

[31:23] you know if she dismissed it at the time

[31:25] or was kind of on like high alert

[31:26] looking for him?

[31:27] >> So, at age five, Lekh Paul was allowed

[31:31] to go to Nagla Tal, the village of Hukum

[31:35] Singh. And while he was visiting, he

[31:39] recognized Hukum Singh's mom as she was

[31:42] sitting with some other women in the

[31:44] village in front of a house. And he

[31:47] said, "This is my mother."

[31:48] >> And it's hard not to think about what

[31:50] this poor mother was living through. She

[31:52] dreamed twice that her dead son was

[31:53] coming back to her. And then she's

[31:55] sitting outside of her house with her

[31:56] neighbors and a five-year-old boy with

[31:58] no fingers on his right hand walks past

[32:01] this group of women and picks her out of

[32:02] the group and says, "That's my mother."

[32:04] And it actually didn't stop with

[32:05] recognizing her because Lekh Paul, this

[32:07] new boy, seemed to know stuff about

[32:09] Hukum's father, too. Not just who he

[32:11] was, but what Hukum called him.

[32:13] >> When Lekh Paul talked about this

[32:15] accident with the fodder chopping

[32:17] machine, he talked about how he was with

[32:20] Chacha. And Chacha was the person who

[32:23] was running the machine. So, apparently,

[32:25] Chacha is a word that means uncle. And

[32:29] this is how the family overall would

[32:32] refer to Hukum Singh's dad as Chacha

[32:35] because he was a Chacha to other family

[32:38] members. So, Ian mentions in his notes

[32:40] that for that culture, it was customary

[32:43] for people to refer to someone by the

[32:46] name that most of their family members

[32:48] refer to them as. So, even though it

[32:51] means uncle, it's very interesting and

[32:53] striking that Lekh Paul would pull up

[32:56] this word for his father, who was

[32:58] present in the accident. In addition to

[33:00] recognizing his two brothers and his

[33:03] mother from this purported past life, he

[33:06] also recognized the place where the

[33:08] accident happened, even though at that

[33:11] point the fodder chopping machine had

[33:13] been moved. He also recognized the place

[33:17] outside of the village where Hukum Singh

[33:20] had died.

[33:21] >> But, the most compelling part of this

[33:22] case are obviously the missing fingers.

[33:24] And what I love about the rigor of Dr.

[33:27] Stevenson as he tried to count them out,

[33:29] not count them in. He went into the

[33:31] medical literature, as he did on all

[33:33] birthmark cases, to try to find a

[33:35] standard, kind of boring medical

[33:36] explanation for a missing fingers birth

[33:38] defect. And he couldn't really find one.

[33:41] >> So, the closest thing he found is this

[33:45] birth defect called brachydactyly,

[33:48] which means that some of your fingers

[33:51] are shorter than other fingers.

[33:53] And what's interesting is that typically

[33:56] it's most commonly bilateral, so both

[33:59] hands have shorter fingers or missing

[34:03] fingers. So, it is already unusual to

[34:06] have a case where only one hand is

[34:08] affected. And it wasn't that his fingers

[34:11] were short, his fingers were just

[34:13] missing and he had these short little

[34:15] stubs.

[34:16] >> And this type of birth defect shows up

[34:18] in one out of 40,000 children. But, what

[34:20] Lekh Paul had didn't seem to be

[34:22] brachydactyly, the only normal

[34:23] explanation, because not both hands were

[34:25] affected, only one. And it wasn't just

[34:27] shorter fingers, there is like a clean

[34:30] line, it looks like a slice where all

[34:31] the fingers are cut off on one hand. And

[34:33] the investigator who worked this case

[34:35] alongside Ian Stevenson was an Indian

[34:37] psychologist named Dr. Satwant Pasricha,

[34:40] and the BBC actually put this question

[34:41] to her as well.

[34:43] >> Being born with missing fingers is very

[34:45] rare. And the corresponding feature in

[34:48] the previous personality adds to its

[34:51] importance.

[34:52] The same fingers were chopped off. Also,

[34:55] there was no family history of missing

[34:57] fingers.

[34:59] And uh there was no such case in the

[35:00] whole of village.

[35:01] >> Here's tape of Dr. Ian Stevenson from an

[35:03] interview he did in 1992.

[35:05] >> Birth defects of the kinds that we have

[35:07] in these cases are uncommon, and they're

[35:09] not the sort that you find in the

[35:11] textbooks of birth defects. Few of them

[35:14] are, but most of them are not.

[35:15] >> So, I know none of this is easy to

[35:16] digest, and this episode for me was the

[35:18] most difficult emotionally to create.

[35:21] And to be honest, we're not even at the

[35:23] most confounding and wildest part yet.

[35:25] So, we're going to take a quick break,

[35:26] get some coffee or a drink, and when we

[35:29] come back, we'll talk about whether or

[35:30] not you can purposefully mark a body to

[35:32] try to find a loved one when and if they

[35:35] are reborn.

[35:41] So, welcome back. And by now, you've

[35:42] heard me say that this episode has

[35:44] really thrown me through a loop. And

[35:45] when I start to feel really destabilized

[35:47] about something, one of my favorite

[35:48] things to do is to look backwards. What

[35:51] did people know and understand to be

[35:52] true when they were depending on

[35:54] observations? And what I mean by this is

[35:56] is that long before modern science and

[35:58] technology, people learned about the

[35:59] world by watching it. They tracked the

[36:01] stars and the moon. They watched animals

[36:03] and seasons and weather. And cultures

[36:05] passed down knowledge and formed beliefs

[36:07] about the patterns that they noticed.

[36:09] So, you'd think that if this birthmark

[36:10] birth defect phenomenon is a real thing,

[36:13] it would have been documented throughout

[36:14] history long before Ian Stevenson

[36:16] started looking at it. And it turns out

[36:18] it was. Across cultures separated by

[36:20] enormous distances from Asia to West

[36:22] Africa to indigenous communities in

[36:24] North America and Alaska, people had

[36:26] traditions of examining babies for marks

[36:28] that resembled wounds, scars, or other

[36:31] identifying features on people who had

[36:33] died. Here's Dr. Jim Matlock again.

[36:36] >> The very same signs that Stevenson was

[36:39] looking at as evidence of reincarnation,

[36:42] these indigenous societies were noticed

[36:44] in relation to reincarnation. And we've

[36:46] got reincarnation beliefs recorded in

[36:49] upwards of 50% of indigenous societies.

[36:52] And so it's sort of clear that through

[36:54] them reincarnation was an empirical

[36:57] conclusion. It wasn't a belief, it

[37:00] wasn't just something where somebody

[37:01] thought up. It was something they

[37:03] concluded on the basis of having seen

[37:06] children who had a birthmark matching a

[37:09] wound of somebody

[37:11] in their in their family or somebody

[37:12] they knew who had died, you know, or who

[37:14] had the personality of somebody that

[37:16] they could piece pieces together.

[37:19] >> And then in some places people took that

[37:20] observation one step further. Because if

[37:23] a mark on one body could somehow appear

[37:24] in the next one, why wait for nature or

[37:27] luck provide that mark? Why not put one

[37:29] there yourself and see what happens? So

[37:31] people in cultures throughout the world

[37:33] began deliberately marking the bodies of

[37:35] people who've died, and then they

[37:37] watched.

[37:38] >> So experimental birthmarks or the

[37:40] cadaver marking is primarily a South

[37:43] Asian phenomenon, and it seems to be

[37:45] very very old because it's been reported

[37:48] from India all the way to Japan, and

[37:52] then from Thailand and Burma all the way

[37:55] up to China to Mongolia. So a huge huge

[37:58] huge cultural area there, as well as a

[38:01] geographical area. And one of the axioms

[38:04] of anthropology is that the more

[38:06] widespread a phenomenon is, the older

[38:08] it's likely to be, right? And so this

[38:10] suggests that it's really very very old.

[38:12] >> Stevenson called these experimental

[38:14] birthmarks, but Dr. Matlock prefers a

[38:16] much more literal name.

[38:17] >> I prefer the term cadaver mark because

[38:20] that's what it is. Bodies are marked

[38:23] after death with the intention of

[38:26] tracking the person into the next life,

[38:29] and that's why students in Colima

[38:30] experimental birthmarks. They're

[38:31] experimental on the part of the deceased

[38:35] family to try to track the person. They

[38:38] then look for somebody who has a

[38:40] birthmark corresponding in the

[38:41] corresponding place.

[38:43] >> This is not a ritual for grief. It's

[38:45] more like a tracking device. You mark a

[38:47] body so you can find the soul or the

[38:49] consciousness of the person who's died

[38:51] in the next body in which they come

[38:53] back.

[38:53] >> The marks are usually made in

[38:56] inconspicuous parts of the body like

[38:59] soles of the feet, parts of the body

[39:02] that are normally covered up by

[39:03] clothing, less often in the back of the

[39:06] neck and the hands and forearms and

[39:09] things. And then they're usually larger

[39:12] than most birthmarks are.

[39:14] >> Okay, so I get they do this, but does it

[39:17] work?

[39:17] >> Yes, this is why it's continued because

[39:20] it seems to work.

[39:21] >> Something that is this old and practiced

[39:23] in many separate cultures does not

[39:25] survive centuries of failing. So I'm

[39:27] still a little unclear on like what they

[39:29] use for marking the bodies.

[39:30] >> It is an interesting question because it

[39:33] depends on the culture. In a lot of

[39:36] areas, particularly in South Asia, in

[39:39] Burma and Thailand, they use soot from a

[39:42] cooking pot from the bottom of a cooking

[39:44] pot. And so the birthmarks that show up

[39:46] on the children tend to be black, you

[39:49] know,

[39:50] in the same color as the mark was made.

[39:53] And it's quite striking. If they use

[39:54] butter, something light like that, then

[39:57] you have a light birthmark. If they use

[39:59] something dark, you have a dark

[40:00] birthmark. If they use red lipstick, you

[40:02] got a red birthmark.

[40:03] >> It all just seems so, I mean, it's like

[40:06] I'm in this conversation and I'm hedging

[40:09] the belief, but I just cannot understand

[40:10] how putting lipstick on a dead person

[40:13] could create a birthmark on another

[40:15] body.

[40:15] >> There's actually a modern Thai case of a

[40:18] mark that was done in red lipstick

[40:21] on the back of the neck. And the

[40:23] birthmark that resulted from this was

[40:25] red, just as the mark was with the red

[40:28] lipstick.

[40:28] >> Man, it's wild.

[40:29] >> It's incredible.

[40:30] >> And I just want to note here that in

[40:32] this episode, we're talking about cases

[40:34] that have been researched and published.

[40:35] There's thousands of cases, and we can't

[40:37] go deep into all of them, but we'll put

[40:39] links in the show notes of books to get

[40:40] you started. Okay, have you found this

[40:42] practice anywhere else in the world?

[40:44] >> There is in West Africa the same idea

[40:47] that children and adults will

[40:49] reincarnate, right? And that they can be

[40:52] recognized through birth marks or birth

[40:54] defects. But in West Africa, it's

[40:57] something that again is a very

[40:58] long-standing because you find it

[41:00] throughout West Africa, really from

[41:03] Central Africa all the way to Senegal on

[41:05] the coast, a very broad area. And the

[41:07] idea here is that children who die very

[41:11] young are being called back up by their

[41:14] discarnates.

[41:15] >> They want them back.

[41:16] >> Okay, okay. So like selfish spirits on

[41:18] the other side want to keep souls of

[41:20] children who died specifically for

[41:22] themselves, like wherever they are.

[41:23] >> Yeah, they're doing this to torment the

[41:25] parents is the idea, right? But this is

[41:28] imagined to be a very vain bunch of

[41:31] discarnates. And if you disfigure a

[41:34] child who dies young like this, then

[41:36] they won't want the child back, and they

[41:39] will allow it then to reincarnate and

[41:41] live. Like the Igbo of Nigeria, they'll

[41:44] cut off the tip of a finger. The

[41:46] Senegal, they'll clip the lobe of an

[41:48] ear, for instance. In Ghana, they will

[41:50] mark it in other ways. It's always

[41:52] defacing the body, though. It's not

[41:54] simply marking it.

[41:55] >> So then the same question, like in

[41:57] Africa, does this work? Are kids born

[41:58] without fingertips?

[42:00] >> What Stevenson found is that children

[42:02] are born among the Igbo without the tips

[42:04] of their fingers. There are either

[42:06] children born among the Senegal with the

[42:09] lobes of their ears cut off. It's so

[42:12] it's in a way it's the same sort of

[42:13] thing as the cadaver marking you have in

[42:16] Asia. The cadaver is marked in some way

[42:20] and this shows up in this case as a

[42:22] birth defect as opposed to a birthmark,

[42:24] but you can see how they're sort of

[42:25] similar phenomena.

[42:26] >> It's like everything you talk about

[42:28] brings up 100 more questions. And so

[42:30] what I'm thinking about right now is

[42:31] that like in the UVA archive, right? The

[42:34] little kids who have usually died

[42:36] traumatically, remember a tragic death,

[42:38] and talk about it. Only in 20% of those

[42:41] cases do they go back to the same

[42:42] family. It seems like maybe in these

[42:44] tribes

[42:46] they're going back repeatedly and I

[42:47] don't know maybe that means that like

[42:48] there's a cultural expectation or a duty

[42:52] to do something that our consciousness

[42:53] also carries with us, right? To the

[42:55] beyond. However, um

[42:58] I'm sure some people will be like, ah,

[43:00] I'm not going to go back to that tribe,

[43:01] that country, that family. So, I mean,

[43:04] have there been kids born in France or

[43:06] Ecuador with

[43:08] their earlobe missing or a tip of a

[43:10] finger missing?

[43:11] >> I mean, I have heard of occasional

[43:13] Westerners born with one of these

[43:16] defects, but there's nothing in our

[43:19] culture that would lead one to suggest

[43:22] that. And so one has to wonder whether

[43:26] in these children had a previous life in

[43:29] those cultures and were marked in these

[43:31] ways and that's why they're showing up.

[43:34] >> It's not hard to understand why Dr.

[43:35] Stevenson dedicated so much of his

[43:37] career to trying to make sense of these

[43:39] cases in particular. At one point when

[43:41] he started looking into the birthmark

[43:42] cases, he told colleagues he was going

[43:44] to publish the books on birthmarks the

[43:45] following year. And it came out 20 years

[43:48] later. And I think the reason this is so

[43:49] much for me is because

[43:51] there's a huge distance between

[43:53] documenting something and explaining it.

[43:55] And Stevenson actually wrestled with how

[43:57] it could happen. How could a mark left

[43:59] on one body suddenly show up on another?

[44:02] And Stevenson put forth a hypothesis. A

[44:04] possible answer was that something

[44:06] unknown yet might carry information

[44:08] between lives. Not just the memory and

[44:10] aspects of personality, but like an

[44:12] imprint of the physical body itself. So,

[44:14] here's Dr. Ian Stevenson from a talk he

[44:16] did at UVA in 2004.

[44:18] >> I think there is some kind of vehicle,

[44:20] which I call a psychophore. That's just

[44:22] an English adaptation of a Greek word

[44:24] meaning mind carrying.

[44:26] >> A psychophore is basically his term for

[44:30] an astral body. That in addition to a

[44:33] physical form that we have a sort of a

[44:35] spirit body, right? And the spirit body

[44:38] survives the physical body in death. And

[44:40] so, what Stevenson suggested is that the

[44:43] mark gets made on the astral body, the

[44:46] spirit body. And then through that

[44:48] spirit body then it's conveyed to the

[44:50] new body.

[44:52] >> And Dr. Stevenson was about as far from

[44:54] woo as you could get. He was measured,

[44:56] cautious, rigorous, almost painfully

[44:58] conservative in the way he wrote about

[44:59] his work. And just a reminder that when

[45:01] Carol Bowman, who was featured in our

[45:02] first two episodes, finally met Dr.

[45:05] Stevenson, he basically said, "I'm not

[45:07] interested in the healing stuff." He was

[45:09] solely focused on researching,

[45:10] documenting, and evidence, not healing,

[45:12] which left her disappointed and led to

[45:14] her pioneering her own research around

[45:16] the healing effects of revisiting past

[45:18] lives. So, to me it's pretty remarkable

[45:20] that where Stevenson landed was pushing

[45:22] against the boundaries of materialist

[45:24] science. Because whatever the

[45:26] explanation was or could be, it had to

[45:28] allow information about one body to

[45:30] somehow reach another. And when data

[45:32] seems to be telling you something and

[45:34] you don't have a mechanism or framework

[45:36] to explain it, you do what scientists

[45:38] have always done. You propose one. And

[45:40] what's interesting is Dr. Jim Matlock,

[45:42] the anthropologist who's been with us

[45:43] over the past few episodes, he disagrees

[45:45] with Stevenson's hypothesis and has a

[45:47] different one.

[45:48] >> A psychophore, I see some difficulties

[45:50] with that. For one thing, the idea of a

[45:52] spirit body, we don't really have much

[45:54] good scientific backing for it. You can

[45:57] say, "Oh, people who see auras, maybe

[45:59] that's evidence of it. Maybe apparitions

[46:01] are evidence of it." But that's kind of

[46:02] controversial, right? My idea is

[46:05] different and I think it's more

[46:07] straightforward. I think that it's

[46:09] psychogenic. I think it was simply the

[46:11] reincarnating consciousness which is

[46:14] making the mark on its new body.

[46:16] >> So Matlock's hypothesis doesn't require

[46:19] a psychospore or an astral body. He's

[46:21] suggesting that information comes with

[46:22] the consciousness itself. It's like

[46:24] encoded into consciousness and somehow

[46:26] that consciousness influences the body

[46:28] it's entering. And the keyword here is

[46:30] somehow because we don't know. I don't

[46:32] think anyone knows. But the team at

[46:33] UVA's Division of Perceptual Studies is

[46:36] thinking up some incredible ideas to

[46:37] start investigating this. Here's Dr.

[46:39] Philip Cosolino again.

[46:41] >> We're thinking about going in directions

[46:42] of like epigenetic and genomic studies

[46:45] to try to understand because if you can

[46:47] carry over a birthmark, then maybe you

[46:49] can carry over some sequence of genetic

[46:51] code. Let's start digging into what's

[46:53] actually happening here and be open to

[46:55] any answer. Maybe it's complete fraud,

[46:57] maybe it's complete chance, maybe it's

[46:59] purely natural, and maybe [music] it's

[47:01] something completely unexplainable at

[47:03] this point, but we could eventually help

[47:04] explain it.

[47:05] >> So you want to do a study where you'll

[47:06] take maybe a child who's remembering a

[47:08] past life, do like a DNA test on that

[47:10] child, and a DNA test or something on

[47:11] that past life [music] that that they're

[47:13] remembering to see if there's any

[47:15] genetic link?

[47:15] >> There's two ways that I want to go about

[47:17] it. The first one is that we want to

[47:19] swab past life memory child and find the

[47:22] past personality descendants. We could

[47:24] be doing any number of comparisons in

[47:27] that way, but there's also more exciting

[47:28] one, which is the epigenetic one, which

[47:30] is Recently, there have been papers

[47:31] published. The case that I read about

[47:33] was a Holocaust survivor whose

[47:35] grandchildren had epigenetic markers of

[47:38] trauma. Child has never experienced

[47:39] trauma, but somehow that got encoded and

[47:42] passed on. The bulk of our children talk

[47:44] about trauma and wouldn't it be

[47:46] interesting if somehow there are trauma

[47:47] markers in that child that don't exist

[47:49] in their siblings and yet they're

[47:51] claiming they had trauma. You're not

[47:52] going to imagine yourself into genetic

[47:54] change.

[47:55] >> No. And this is why I keep coming back

[47:57] to the value of open-minded skeptics in

[47:59] science. Not people who believe

[48:01] everything or dismiss everything, but

[48:03] people willing to say, "Okay, if this is

[48:05] the claim, how do we actually test it?"

[48:07] Stevenson spent decades doing the hard

[48:09] part first. He documented these cases

[48:11] obsessively, carefully, and in enormous

[48:14] numbers, but he didn't have the tools we

[48:16] have now to start looking underneath

[48:18] them. And that's what feels really

[48:19] exciting to me, because now you can

[48:21] bring in genetics and epigenetics and

[48:23] neuroscience, psychology, all of the

[48:25] fields that have advanced so much since

[48:27] Stevenson started this work. Even Carol

[48:29] Bowman's ideas about healing don't have

[48:30] to remain anecdotal. We could actually

[48:32] study what happens psychologically when

[48:34] children are encouraged to talk about

[48:35] these memories versus when they're

[48:37] discouraged from talking about them.

[48:39] There are so many places this could go,

[48:40] but we're never going to know if the

[48:42] questions themselves are considered too

[48:44] strange to fund, too strange to publish,

[48:46] or too strange to seriously investigate.

[48:48] >> It will cost a lot of money and it will

[48:50] take a lot of time, but I think there's

[48:51] a really exciting way of looking at it

[48:53] from that perspective.

[48:54] >> And what's funny for me is that the

[48:55] longer I've worked on this season, I

[48:57] find myself asking less proof-oriented

[48:59] questions and more questions about the

[49:01] parameters of how all this works. Like,

[49:04] if consciousness survives, how much

[49:05] agency does it have? Do we choose when

[49:08] we come back, or where, or to whom? And

[49:10] what happens in the time between lives?

[49:13] And my biggest question now is whether

[49:14] or not people who are still living have

[49:16] any role in the rebirth process. I just

[49:18] think about the millions of people

[49:20] who've grieved around the world praying

[49:21] to see their loved ones again or for

[49:23] assurance that they aren't gone forever,

[49:25] or even praying to bring them back. And

[49:28] could that longing matter? Could love

[49:30] itself somehow be part of this equation?

[49:32] So, I wanted to find a modern case where

[49:34] we could look at all of these questions

[49:36] at once. A case where I could talk to

[49:38] the person who says they actually

[49:39] remember their past life, but I also

[49:41] wanted to find someone who remembers

[49:43] dying, and who remembers something about

[49:45] the intermission period between lives,

[49:47] and who might be able to tell us what,

[49:49] if anything, they believe brought them

[49:50] back.

[49:51] >> He started to remember his past life. He

[49:54] started talking about his drowning.

[49:57] >> So next week we travel to Sri Lanka for

[49:59] a case that shook me to my core.

[50:01] >> He was a very good swimmer. So people

[50:02] couldn't understand that he could not

[50:04] have drowned.

[50:05] >> And the Harvard neuroscientist who

[50:06] brought us this case began investigating

[50:08] reincarnation because he entered an

[50:10] essay contest [music] asking whether or

[50:12] not consciousness could survive death,

[50:14] just like Dr. Ian Stevenson did nearly

[50:16] 70 years ago.

[50:17] >> Hundreds of people from around the world

[50:19] have been competing in a contest to show

[50:21] there is life after death.

[50:23] >> Maybe the biggest essay contest of all

[50:26] time to solve the biggest question of

[50:28] all time.

[50:29] >> It feels strangely full circle. So join

[50:31] us next week as we follow a case that

[50:33] brings nearly every question we've been

[50:34] asking this season together into one

[50:37] extraordinary story. Because if

[50:38] consciousness [music] survives death,

[50:40] maybe the biggest mystery isn't where we

[50:42] go, but what brings us back.

[50:49] Thank you to the small team who made

[50:50] this season possible. Our amazing

[50:52] producer, Cooper Mall. Our audio mix and

[50:54] sound design was by Jeremy Cole. Music

[50:56] was by Mike Curbino. My right hand was

[50:58] Selena Kennedy. And I'm Ken Dickens,

[51:00] your executive producer, writer, editor,

[51:03] and host. And if you haven't listened to

[51:04] our last season of the podcast, The

[51:06] Consciousness Cassettes, I highly

[51:07] recommend you do so as it will give even

[51:09] more context [music] to this season. And

[51:11] if you want to go in deeper, subscribe

[51:13] to our backstage pass by visiting our

[51:15] website. With it, you'll unlock access

[51:17] to bonus [music] content, ask me

[51:18] anything interviews with myself and

[51:20] guests. You'll be able to connect with

[51:21] other members on our Discord. You'll be

[51:23] able to enjoy the podcast ad-free, and

[51:26] hear [music] and see exclusive content

[51:28] from the Telepathy Tapes Vault. Visit

[51:30] our website at the telepathytapes.com

[51:32] for more info on how to subscribe to our

[51:34] backstage pass.

[51:36] This is the Reincarnation Records from

[51:38] TTT Media.

TT
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The Telepathy Tapes

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Explore Topics
BirthmarksPast-life-memoryReincarnation-researchIan-stevensonAnnouncing-dreams

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Researchers in the episode treat certain birthmarks and birth defects as a serious problem for coincidence-based explanations, but they do not present them as proof. The strongest cases involve a mark in the same location as a documented fatal wound on a deceased person whom the child had first identified through specific memories.
According to anthropologist Dr. Jim Matlock in the episode, reincarnation-linked marks are odd-looking, sit in unusual places, and tend to match the location of a wound, often a mortal one. Ordinary birthmarks usually come from the birthing process or genetics, while earring holes, tattoos, and surgical scars can also produce marks that look like these.
An announcing dream, as described in the episode, is one in which a recently deceased person alerts a parent that they have chosen that parent and are coming as their baby. These dreams are often reported before a child is born and are one of the recurring features in the Division of Perceptual Studies archive.
Stevenson's method, as explained in the episode, began with the child's specific memories, which were used to identify a deceased person. Only after that identification did investigators compare the child's birthmarks or birth defects with documented injuries, such as those recorded in autopsy reports.
Dr. Philip Cosolino said in the episode that 44% of the division's children have birthmarks and 11% have birth defects, while 61% can say how they think they died in a past life and 75% of those describe an unnatural, often violent death. These are archive figures, not proof of reincarnation.
The episode points to Reincarnation and Biology, a two-volume work that Stevenson wrote about birthmarks and birth defects, which together run to more than 2,000 pages. Other titles mentioned include Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation and the four-volume Cases of the Reincarnation Type series.

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