Transcript
[0:00] How healed do you need to be
[0:02] to be able to heal other people?
[0:04] >> You may know the whole entire Vedanta
[0:06] back to front and still not be able to
[0:08] change another person's heart.
[0:09] >> When we approach a flashy new spiritual
[0:12] tradition and practice that's obviously
[0:15] making waves in our own minds and lives
[0:17] and transforming us, instantly we all
[0:19] want to be Jesus.
[0:20] >> I have a feeling that some people avoid
[0:22] me
[0:23] in the kind of wellness yoga cure tone
[0:25] space because they think I'm trying to
[0:27] preach them systematically.
[0:29] >> Sharing of of Krishna bhakti with others
[0:31] is actually more about your own
[0:32] purification than it is about your
[0:35] qualification to change someone's heart.
[0:37] >> I now know better than you. Let me share
[0:39] with you this amazing thing I have
[0:42] discovered. There's like an energy in
[0:44] that of I'm now a little bit more
[0:46] elevated than you.
[0:48] >> Like we radiate so much
[0:51] great energy
[0:52] when we just focus on ourselves.
[0:54] >> [music]
[0:55] [singing]
[0:59] >> Hello. For Soul's Sake, you're back.
[1:02] Another episode with my dear friends Nam
[1:04] and Stina. We are all about trying to
[1:07] make this spiritual bhakti
[1:11] knowledge more accessible and relevant
[1:14] to not just you, but to a potential
[1:16] friend, to a neighbor who's really deep
[1:19] down needing some spirituality in their
[1:21] life. And so, if you feel like this
[1:22] conversation will even without hearing
[1:25] it, you can already tell it's going to
[1:26] be good cuz you know it's three of us
[1:27] and you know it's always good.
[1:29] Share it with a friend. Hit that like
[1:30] button. Hit that subscribe button and
[1:33] share it with a friend because we are on
[1:35] a mission to make spirituality
[1:37] accessible and relevant for the masses
[1:39] and we're trying to do it as
[1:40] professionally as we can with this
[1:42] incredible setup and with all the audio
[1:44] equipment that goes with it. So, if
[1:46] you're listening or you're watching the
[1:48] full episode, I'm so grateful that
[1:49] you're here. Thank you so much for being
[1:50] here and share it with a friend. Today
[1:53] we are talking about, ironically,
[1:57] stop trying to save your friends and
[1:59] family.
[2:00] Start loving them instead. We're going
[2:02] to explore the tension of being on a
[2:05] spiritual path
[2:07] while our nearest and dearest might not
[2:09] understand it. And uh they may not value
[2:11] it, they may not want us to be part of
[2:14] it, they may not want to join us, even
[2:16] though we've been trying to get them
[2:17] tickets to Radhe Krishna Das for over a
[2:18] year. Um this episode should hopefully
[2:21] help you to reflect on the difference
[2:23] between inspiring people
[2:26] and trying to change them.
[2:28] Notice how I did higher and lower.
[2:30] The aim is to gently move us uh away
[2:34] from frustration in our sharing and our
[2:36] preaching and our, you know, trying to
[2:38] cultivate spiritual knowledge in others,
[2:40] um which is actually kind of like a
[2:42] subtle superiority. It's going to get
[2:44] interesting, people.
[2:46] But we're going to move towards trying
[2:47] to be more patient with people, more
[2:49] humble with people, more simply loving
[2:52] with people.
[2:54] So uh yeah.
[2:55] Don't try and save your friends and
[2:57] family. Start loving them instead.
[2:59] Stina, thoughts?
[3:03] >> Mhm.
[3:05] >> Have you tried to do it? What's your
[3:06] personal experience with it? Let's start
[3:07] there.
[3:07] >> Yeah, so actually what just came to mind
[3:09] was something my grandfather always used
[3:11] to say. He said, "The fanatic is he who
[3:14] has only ever read one book."
[3:17] And I think this goes to the core of
[3:19] this subject matter because I think
[3:21] often
[3:23] we if we're not quite secure in our own
[3:27] sort of understanding or not rooted in
[3:31] our practice or lineage or what we
[3:33] follow or believe in, then we have this
[3:36] need for everybody else around us to
[3:38] also follow
[3:41] what we are doing and be the same.
[3:43] Whereas I think the more knowledgeable
[3:45] we become and the more we can sort of
[3:48] have a more comprehensive understanding
[3:50] of philosophy and
[3:54] the practices and things, the more room
[3:55] we have, the more spaciousness we have
[3:57] for other people to disagree with us
[4:00] or even for this idea that truth can
[4:03] coexist and it doesn't have to be
[4:05] this or that, it can be this and that.
[4:09] >> Mhm.
[4:11] I'm trying to think of like a personal
[4:13] experience of this. You know,
[4:15] okay, it did happen in my life.
[4:18] I came across
[4:19] the Christian devotees
[4:22] and I went on a bit of a mission to
[4:23] convert my sister.
[4:27] Didn't end up well.
[4:29] No, it happened.
[4:31] Uh, she told me I was a loony and then
[4:33] uh
[4:34] yeah, she went to an event and then she
[4:36] she experienced it from others and then
[4:37] got really inspired, but that was very
[4:39] humbling cuz I realized that I I
[4:41] genuinely realized and I still remember
[4:43] it to this day, I may not be the person
[4:45] that can help this person.
[4:47] >> Mhm.
[4:48] >> I may not be the person that can change
[4:49] their heart, change their consciousness.
[4:51] Very humbling, it's humiliating. It's
[4:53] like you may know more than one book
[4:56] and still you may know that whole entire
[4:58] Vedanta back to front and still not be
[5:00] able to change another person's heart.
[5:02] And it's very humbling. It's man, I
[5:04] mean, okay, another one, this is really
[5:06] funny.
[5:07] There were three musketeers at primary
[5:09] school at my little kiddie school. It
[5:11] was me, Nam and another friend
[5:14] and I was convinced
[5:17] that I would be the one that would
[5:19] convert
[5:20] the other one, who's not in the room
[5:22] right now
[5:23] to Christian bhakti.
[5:25] Turned out Nam went on and became the
[5:27] devotee.
[5:28] >> Mhm.
[5:29] >> So, it's like
[5:31] it's
[5:32] it's there's no linear pattern to trying
[5:34] to convert people. There's nothing Okay,
[5:36] first and foremost, I'm going to say
[5:38] there's nothing to convert to.
[5:40] There's absolutely nothing to convert
[5:42] to.
[5:43] There may be a set of rituals and
[5:44] culture that we want to try and impress
[5:46] upon people, but you can't convert
[5:48] someone to love.
[5:51] There's there's no way you can you can't
[5:53] force someone. You can like the Chinese
[5:55] there's that problem. You can't
[5:56] uh bring the horse to the water and
[5:58] force it to drink the water. There's not
[6:00] You can bring it, you can't force it.
[6:02] >> Yeah.
[6:03] >> Experiences in your life?
[6:05] >> Yeah, I think it's like a a natural
[6:07] thing, right? When we
[6:10] approach a flashy new spiritual
[6:12] tradition and practice that's obviously
[6:14] making waves in our own minds and lives
[6:16] and transforming us.
[6:18] Instantly, we all want to be Jesus.
[6:21] Ooh, you know, we all want to be like
[6:22] the savior.
[6:24] We want to be known as like
[6:25] >> back track there. Back track there. We
[6:26] want to be Jesus?
[6:28] >> Yeah.
[6:28] >> What? Like to be like the Messiah?
[6:30] >> Yeah.
[6:32] That Messiah not I wouldn't say it's the
[6:33] Messiah complex, but
[6:35] there's a term in um
[6:37] bhakti philosophy known as the first
[6:38] stage someone feels um when they start
[6:41] their bhakti journey is called utsaha
[6:43] mayi, which means is essentially
[6:45] immature enthusiasm. It's the initial
[6:47] like, "Wow, this is amazing. This is
[6:50] like revolutionary. I'm feeling these
[6:51] experiences. This knowledge is deep.
[6:54] It's right unlimited knowledge. Everyone
[6:56] should know about it."
[6:57] Then instantly you take it on yourself
[6:59] to become the Messiah. Yeah, let's do
[7:01] this. Do this. Yeah, you're like this.
[7:02] You've got ego. You need to You know,
[7:04] and it's a very like an interesting
[7:06] immature I like that word. It's an
[7:07] immature enthusiasm. And we all want to
[7:09] be the savior.
[7:11] I think for me
[7:12] I went uh as Radica mentioned I was like
[7:15] university, was getting involved. Then I
[7:17] decided to go on this this trip this
[7:19] youth trip to to to Belgium to one of
[7:22] our temples in Belgium. I found found it
[7:25] to be an absolutely amazing experience.
[7:27] >> And in 2012?
[7:29] >> 2000 and it must have been about Yeah,
[7:32] 12. 12 actually, yeah.
[7:35] And I came home
[7:36] and I I I went up to my mom and my
[7:39] sister
[7:40] and I went, "Yo." And the first thing I
[7:42] did when I through the door, I said,
[7:44] 'You guys need to start chanting Hare
[7:45] Krishna.'"
[7:46] >> [laughter]
[7:47] >> That was the first thing. I just went,
[7:49] "You guys need to start This mantra's
[7:51] going to revolutionize your life. Like,
[7:53] you need to start."
[7:55] And my sister was like in her peak
[7:57] university years. You know, she was like
[7:58] partying in Cambridge, like having a
[8:00] good time. My mom was like, interesting
[8:02] response. My mom was like, "Okay."
[8:05] >> [laughter]
[8:05] >> My mom was just like, "Okay, yeah,
[8:06] yeah."
[8:06] >> She's such a sweetheart.
[8:07] >> "Yeah, yeah, sure. Okay, yeah." Then she
[8:09] started buying me pictures of Krishna
[8:11] like to hang at university. I was like,
[8:12] "Whoa."
[8:13] But my sister was just like
[8:15] She She would You could see she was like
[8:17] a bit like, "What?" Like, "Where did
[8:19] this come from?"
[8:20] But I think similarly to you, what you
[8:22] were saying that it wasn't me who was
[8:24] able to share Krishna with her.
[8:26] It was Krishna's desire of other people
[8:29] in her life who
[8:31] kind of responsible.
[8:32] So, I think
[8:34] we spoke about this on a previous
[8:35] podcast that we released a few weeks
[8:37] ago, but
[8:39] we're not in the center of Krishna's
[8:41] plans.
[8:43] And we're not in the center of service.
[8:45] Service is about the other person, not
[8:46] about us being the savior. If we truly
[8:48] care that someone comes to bhakti, we
[8:51] don't care who and how and in which
[8:54] situation it it happens. It's about them
[8:57] receiving it in what way Krishna feels
[8:58] best for them.
[9:00] So, I think that that initial
[9:01] enthusiasm, our ego's still in the
[9:03] center of it all. And I think it's uh
[9:06] And this is I don't think this is about
[9:07] spiritual communities as well. I think
[9:09] this emotion is felt And there's
[9:11] probably a psychological term for it,
[9:12] but I think this emotion's felt in
[9:15] in any new things that we It's natural,
[9:17] man. It's natural, like
[9:20] >> I don't think there's anything wrong
[9:21] with the initial enthusiasm, cuz I think
[9:24] it's very purifying.
[9:25] Like, you know when you initially tried
[9:27] it when you first I don't think you went
[9:29] through this, cuz I I think you already
[9:30] came a lot more spiritually aware than
[9:33] most. But I've seen it happen a lot in
[9:36] our community. And I don't think there's
[9:37] anything wrong with it. I think we might
[9:39] have an internal giggle cuz we know
[9:40] that's what's what's going on in their
[9:42] life and it's a part of the progression.
[9:45] But it's very natural like when you're
[9:47] in love
[9:48] it's very natural you want to tell
[9:50] everybody about it. Even though you may
[9:52] not, but like you have this like
[9:53] bursting overwhelming feeling of having
[9:55] found something that really makes you
[9:57] happy.
[9:58] And so I don't think there's anything
[9:59] wrong with
[10:00] this natural
[10:02] >> [snorts]
[10:02] >> expression of wanting to share Krishna
[10:04] bhakti with others. Or any form of
[10:06] spirituality that matter I think.
[10:09] Um where we have to be just mindful is
[10:11] the sensitivity of um coming across a
[10:14] bit too
[10:16] uh
[10:16] >> imposing
[10:17] >> imposing, yeah.
[10:18] >> Yeah.
[10:18] >> Like if you don't then
[10:20] Like I think one thing is the guilt and
[10:22] the shame. Like you're not doing it, I
[10:24] am. You're not doing the work, I'm doing
[10:26] it. Well, maybe they are doing the work.
[10:27] You just don't know. And the second part
[10:30] about this whole thing of sharing is we
[10:32] need to be careful about not sharing too
[10:34] much too soon. Cuz it may actually
[10:37] bring them completely the other
[10:38] direction. Like no, these guys are
[10:40] definitely wacko.
[10:42] Like I'm going completely the other way.
[10:44] So
[10:45] >> Richard Rohr famously said that the
[10:48] easiest place to hide from God is in the
[10:51] church.
[10:53] And I think that with this as well
[10:56] it touches a little bit on this notion
[10:58] that when you're preaching to someone
[11:00] else, you're considering yourself to be
[11:03] more enlightened, to be more
[11:04] knowledgeable, to be further ahead.
[11:07] And like you just said, you don't know
[11:08] where somebody else is at and their
[11:10] spiritual practice may well just look
[11:12] very different to yours, but that
[11:13] doesn't mean that they're not
[11:15] >> Yeah.
[11:15] >> actually
[11:17] potentially more enlightened than you.
[11:20] >> Mhm.
[11:21] >> Yeah, definitely.
[11:23] I'm just thinking though
[11:25] if there weren't
[11:29] if
[11:29] You know why I'm I think that that we
[11:31] need to be careful here is cuz there are
[11:34] people in the world that do really
[11:35] appreciate that style of presentation.
[11:38] Like
[11:40] I've you know you you meet particular
[11:42] parts of a spiritual society that want
[11:44] to preach and share in a particular way
[11:47] and I'm not particularly interested in
[11:49] doing it that way myself.
[11:52] But I'm always almost surprised at how
[11:55] some people can find
[11:57] Bhakti and find Kirtan.
[11:59] >> I remember Nam once said to me that
[12:01] sharing Bhakti is one long heartache.
[12:05] >> Yeah.
[12:06] >> Meaning that you would share
[12:09] and bring, you know, and then somebody's
[12:12] in and it's great and you get to know
[12:13] them and then they'll just leave.
[12:15] >> Yeah.
[12:16] >> The heartache of that.
[12:18] >> You can you can easily see someone as
[12:19] like a project.
[12:20] >> Yeah.
[12:21] >> Like this person is like ah they're so
[12:24] they're going to love this, I know it
[12:25] and then you kind of invest so much time
[12:27] and energy
[12:28] for them to make great progress only one
[12:30] day they just kind of disappear and
[12:32] you're like, "Oh."
[12:33] But I think
[12:35] >> Then maybe you also have to question
[12:36] whether or not you were attached to a
[12:38] certain outcome.
[12:39] >> Exactly. Was it really about them?
[12:41] >> Mhm.
[12:42] >> Was it really
[12:42] >> Was it really about
[12:43] >> Was it really about them and the journey
[12:44] that Krishna has planned for them or was
[12:46] it really about you being a part of that
[12:48] journey
[12:49] for them and I think
[12:51] sharing sharing Krishna with others is
[12:53] so much more than just like helping
[12:55] someone on their path. It's also I feel
[12:58] one of the most powerful things is just
[12:59] being a good exemplar yourself.
[13:01] >> Mhm.
[13:02] >> Like we radiate so much
[13:05] great energy
[13:07] when we just focus on ourselves.
[13:09] >> So how about this? How about
[13:12] questioning
[13:15] this whole notion of
[13:16] bringing people to Krishna consciousness
[13:19] or that are
[13:20] So maybe what we should just be focused
[13:23] on is are we raising consciousness
[13:27] with people around us.
[13:29] And does it then matter whether they go
[13:31] on a Krishna conscious path or any other
[13:33] spiritual path? So, if they disappear
[13:36] but stay on a spiritual path, isn't that
[13:38] a good thing?
[13:39] >> Yeah.
[13:41] >> And not a headache, [clears throat]
[13:42] actually.
[13:42] >> Yeah.
[13:43] I think we can't we can't predict or
[13:47] expect everyone to go the full 100
[13:49] yards,
[13:51] right, in one direction.
[13:53] >> But there's also in in that statement
[13:55] there's this presumption that that is
[13:58] the ultimate like destination. Whereas
[14:01] for some people maybe it's not in this
[14:03] lifetime.
[14:04] >> And then yeah, that's what I mean is
[14:05] that we can't expect people to go 100
[14:07] yards in this direction.
[14:08] >> Mhm.
[14:09] >> Like you don't know we don't know what
[14:11] We don't really know someone's
[14:12] consciousness deep enough to really
[14:15] know what's actually right for them.
[14:16] >> Mhm.
[14:17] >> We only have the opportunity to try,
[14:19] right?
[14:20] Here's an opportunity.
[14:21] >> Yeah.
[14:22] >> And then
[14:23] people have their own decisions. You
[14:25] can't force love like what like what you
[14:26] said about it. You can't force someone
[14:27] to drink drink from the well. You can't
[14:29] force someone to love anything.
[14:31] >> Yeah.
[14:32] >> And if you did then it doesn't become
[14:33] love anymore.
[14:35] >> Yeah.
[14:36] I mean
[14:37] I can only speak personally on this
[14:39] point, but I try to see that whatever
[14:41] devotional service has been gifted and
[14:44] and it is really a gift. It's not
[14:46] something that I'm manufacturing. It's a
[14:47] gift. Cuz you can try and try and try
[14:49] and still not be gifted any devotionals.
[14:51] So, any devotional service I've been
[14:53] given to gifted that allows me to
[14:56] facilitate people's journey.
[14:59] I genuinely see it as most of the time
[15:02] anyway, I still do get of course false
[15:04] ego attachment to it. But I do genuinely
[15:06] see it as um
[15:08] uh this is for my purification.
[15:11] Like there may be a thousand people in a
[15:13] concert hall,
[15:15] but I've genuinely
[15:17] often seen it uh apart from the first
[15:19] time. The first time I was extremely
[15:20] worried and nervous and self-conscious
[15:22] and full of my own self.
[15:25] But more and more I've noticed that this
[15:27] is really for me. It's for for me to to
[15:30] cry out to God.
[15:32] And uh
[15:34] as a result, if it helps other people,
[15:36] great, but I know that that was not me
[15:38] that did that. That was the name of
[15:39] Krishna that did that. And I think as um
[15:43] if you're if you're listening to this as
[15:44] someone that wants to share bhakti with
[15:46] friends and family,
[15:48] that my honest encouragement would be to
[15:50] try and go deep yourself in your
[15:52] relationship with God
[15:54] and see every service, even if it's
[15:57] outwardly seen as like a preaching
[15:59] service, see it still as a chance for
[16:01] you to just basically tell
[16:03] divinity that you love. Like tell
[16:05] Krishna you love him.
[16:07] That's what service is for me.
[16:09] >> I I want to flip something here.
[16:10] >> Here we go.
[16:11] >> How healed do you need to be
[16:13] to be able to heal other people?
[16:15] So I
[16:17] how spiritual how much progress do you
[16:19] do you have to make
[16:22] um to be considered like, "Okay, now I'm
[16:24] in a position where I can really share
[16:25] with others
[16:27] um whom want to receive it essentially?"
[16:30] >> If you look at the example of Srila
[16:32] Prabhupada, you would say
[16:34] both. Like he was sharing even when
[16:38] I mean, he's a different category cuz I
[16:39] feel like his entire life is an is like
[16:42] a divine lila.
[16:44] But okay, if we try and dissect it a
[16:46] little bit materially, you look at his
[16:49] early days of sharing
[16:50] and
[16:52] it I mean, forgive me if it sounds rude,
[16:54] but it was a bit of a failure.
[16:57] You think about, you know, if if you've
[16:58] read about the his his life, you see how
[17:01] he tried to create this league of
[17:03] devotees
[17:04] in Jhansi, in India, and it just didn't
[17:07] work.
[17:08] And one would say that maybe he hadn't
[17:10] done the internal work cuz years later,
[17:13] when he spent
[17:14] so long in Vrindavan, deeply absorbing
[17:16] himself, And he then goes at the age of
[17:19] 66, I think it was. 66 years 65 years
[17:23] old. And reaches America. He's full of
[17:26] bhakti shakti.
[17:28] And so it's the quiet
[17:30] introspective
[17:32] unseen devotional service that he did
[17:36] that perhaps powered
[17:39] an entire movement and continues to do
[17:40] so.
[17:42] >> I think it's also a redirection of where
[17:45] we need to
[17:45] >> serve.
[17:46] >> Yeah.
[17:46] >> So in in Srila Prabhupada's case
[17:48] obviously he's a
[17:49] pure devotee who's completely being
[17:51] directed by Krishna. So
[17:52] >> Yeah.
[17:53] >> him making efforts in New Delhi that's
[17:55] just not Krishna's plan for him.
[17:57] >> Right.
[17:58] >> Right. And it's just a redirection of
[17:59] energy and approach.
[18:02] So I think
[18:04] I I I just I just have a
[18:06] I have a real trouble
[18:09] with the concept of quote unquote
[18:12] preaching.
[18:14] I think I think as a as a term because
[18:19] I think it's more of an element about
[18:21] being more compassionate rather than
[18:24] do more preaching.
[18:25] >> Mhm.
[18:27] >> Because
[18:28] if you truly want to share bhakti with
[18:30] other people, it has to be done from a
[18:32] space of compassion and care.
[18:34] And then you're a lot more attentive to
[18:36] the details
[18:38] to the degree someone wants it. Do they
[18:39] even want it?
[18:40] >> Mhm.
[18:41] >> Like why would you impress something on
[18:42] someone who just clearly is just
[18:44] rejecting it? Is You're more sensitive
[18:46] to the approach of sharing and and
[18:47] knowing what that person needs, wants,
[18:50] if they even want it.
[18:52] Um
[18:55] and I think
[18:57] it's it's
[18:58] if if you really care about others, you
[19:00] have to care about yourself.
[19:02] >> Yeah. I also think this touches on
[19:06] the idea that often when in the initial
[19:09] stages when somebody maybe is a bit
[19:11] fanatical
[19:12] it comes from this place I now know
[19:15] better than you.
[19:16] >> Mhm.
[19:16] >> Let me share with you
[19:19] this amazing thing I have discovered.
[19:22] And of course it can come from a good
[19:23] place of going, "Oh my god, this is
[19:25] amazing. I want you to also feel this."
[19:28] But there's an element there's like an
[19:30] energy in that of
[19:32] I'm now a little bit more elevated than
[19:34] you.
[19:35] >> Yeah.
[19:36] It's a fine line, isn't it? It's a fine
[19:37] line between inspiring
[19:40] and just being irritating.
[19:42] >> Yeah.
[19:43] >> It's a really fine line.
[19:45] Now, I wanted to get your take on
[19:48] cuz I knew that you I know that you live
[19:50] the monk lifestyle.
[19:51] >> Mhm.
[19:53] >> And a big part of living in the ashram
[19:56] is that you go out and you spread the
[19:59] joy by distributing books.
[20:00] >> Mhm.
[20:01] >> And um
[20:03] yeah, I just wanted to get your take on
[20:05] cuz you said like you know you find it
[20:07] difficult to to sit with the term
[20:08] preaching.
[20:09] >> Mhm.
[20:10] >> I think that most people would see that
[20:12] as preaching.
[20:13] >> Mhm.
[20:13] >> And like how do we A
[20:16] view that from a mature perspective and
[20:18] what's your take on it? And B
[20:20] um
[20:21] I would say I would I would want to know
[20:23] from you, do you think that there needs
[20:24] to be some sort of
[20:26] um how can we change that perception?
[20:28] I'm I'm just trying to understand it.
[20:29] >> Yeah, it's a good point. So I'll I'll go
[20:31] back to um So one of my mentors in the
[20:34] ashram
[20:36] who has been
[20:37] doing this act of distributing books,
[20:39] speaking to people all across the
[20:41] country or across Europe.
[20:43] And he said to me
[20:44] uh this distribution of books
[20:47] it's not preaching.
[20:48] It's just sadhana.
[20:52] He said this point to me. He said,
[20:53] "We're just doing sadhana. Just like we
[20:55] wake up in the morning and we chant.
[20:57] This is just sadhana. This is an
[20:59] extension of our sadhana." I said, "What
[21:01] What do you mean?"
[21:02] >> [snorts]
[21:02] >> And he goes, "Every person I approach, I
[21:04] just treat it as a conversation with
[21:06] Krishna.
[21:07] Whatever Krishna is supposed to be
[21:09] teaching me about my character and what
[21:10] I need to develop,
[21:12] um I listen to the person I'm speaking
[21:13] to.
[21:14] So, he actually said, "We're not
[21:15] actually doing any preaching. We're just
[21:17] doing sadhana.
[21:18] When you approach every single person,
[21:20] your humility is getting shut down by
[21:21] people who are disinterested."
[21:23] Um
[21:25] if you think you've really
[21:27] uh won and you did you you spoken to
[21:29] someone really good and you've sort of,
[21:30] you know, really connected them about
[21:31] the philosophy and then they shut you
[21:32] down because that's Krishna just telling
[21:34] you, "Hey, calm down your ego."
[21:36] And then when you get out of the way of
[21:38] Krishna trying to provide opportunities,
[21:40] then then things work out.
[21:43] So, actually he said to me that this act
[21:45] is um
[21:46] is is not about preaching. It's not
[21:48] about them. It's purely just for your
[21:50] own purification
[21:52] and for your own self-realization.
[21:54] >> But do you think others would see it as
[21:56] preaching?
[21:57] >> Yeah.
[21:58] Yeah.
[21:58] >> And is there a way to change that
[21:59] perception?
[22:01] Don't think so, right?
[22:03] People will see it for what it is.
[22:05] >> only with depth will you understand that
[22:08] sharing of of Krishna bhakti with others
[22:10] is actually more about your own
[22:11] purification than it is about your
[22:13] qualification to change someone's heart.
[22:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
[22:16] >> And so
[22:18] and so yes, I think people do see it as
[22:21] preaching, very um
[22:23] evangelist kind of
[22:25] methods of of
[22:26] This word preaching has just got such a
[22:27] bad connotation to
[22:28] >> Yeah.
[22:29] >> But um
[22:32] I think I internally developed more
[22:33] during that time
[22:35] rather than affecting changing people's
[22:37] hearts.
[22:39] And I don't And I think that was an
[22:40] interesting realization.
[22:42] >> I've got this weird feeling and I could
[22:44] be completely off it, but I have a
[22:46] feeling that some people avoid me
[22:49] in the kind of wellness yoga kirtan
[22:51] space because they think
[22:54] I'm trying to preach them
[22:55] systematically.
[22:56] >> Mhm.
[22:58] >> I've just got this intuition that maybe
[23:00] people have got me the wrong way.
[23:03] And I think that that comes maybe with
[23:06] impersonalism and when you don't really
[23:08] know what is going on in that person's
[23:10] heart and mind. You know, it's easy to
[23:12] judge someone you don't know.
[23:15] And I think that that's that might also
[23:16] be the case here.
[23:18] That cuz you don't know really what's
[23:19] going on in the heart of that monk. And
[23:21] if you if you see someone on the street
[23:23] distributing books, sharing spiritual,
[23:26] you know, even what they called the
[23:28] Christian group that go out and they
[23:29] share on the streets?
[23:30] >> Mormons.
[23:31] >> Mormons.
[23:32] If you see them,
[23:34] I think 99% of people would avoid.
[23:37] >> Mhm.
[23:37] >> Because they're they're fearful that
[23:39] they're going to get into a heated
[23:40] discussion or something that's going to
[23:41] try and be a bit too preachy for them.
[23:43] But maybe you don't need to engage in a
[23:45] conversation, but you can just honor
[23:46] them by just like hand on heart giving
[23:49] them a nod rather than trying to ignore
[23:50] them.
[23:50] >> You know, some of the best conversations
[23:52] I've ever had on the streets of England
[23:53] is with Mormon.
[23:54] >> Really?
[23:55] >> Mormon missionaries. Like
[23:57] often from the US, they come over and
[23:59] they're just They're actually very sweet
[24:01] cuz they're in an unknown country and
[24:02] they're trying to talk to people about,
[24:03] you know, the good work.
[24:05] And I've had some very just lovely
[24:07] conversations with with
[24:09] Mormon like 20 21-year-olds kind of
[24:11] doing that thing.
[24:13] Um but I I think you raise a good point
[24:14] and you know what it is sometimes? I
[24:16] think when you practice a spiritual
[24:18] practice which you can share, something
[24:20] like kirtan, but it has quite deep
[24:22] philosophical roots,
[24:24] quite deep philosophical grounding,
[24:26] um do's, don'ts, guidelines,
[24:31] that can feel like a threat to many
[24:33] people. What do you think, Stina? I
[24:34] don't know. When something's so loaded
[24:36] and it's not like
[24:40] it's it's the practice and then some.
[24:42] Like that's the full package, right? As
[24:45] opposed to
[24:48] separating things out.
[24:52] >> Yeah, people are going to make
[24:53] assumptions fast. Um we we you heard
[24:55] from Stina in a while. I'm going to turn
[24:57] in a different direction.
[24:58] >> Do you think that's why that it feels
[24:59] like a threat?
[25:02] Or do you think that it's
[25:04] the energy with which it's being
[25:06] presented?
[25:07] >> The latter.
[25:08] >> Or the way in which it's being
[25:09] presented?
[25:10] >> I think the latter for sure. Valid.
[25:11] Valid.
[25:12] Yeah, it's a valid point.
[25:15] >> Because I think so much
[25:19] in whether that horse is going to drink
[25:21] the water is about how it's being
[25:23] presented.
[25:25] >> Mhm.
[25:25] >> Like if you drag the horse down and
[25:28] you're like, "You are going to drink the
[25:29] water." That horse is not going to drink
[25:31] water. [laughter]
[25:32] >> Yeah. I'm actually it's it's really
[25:35] funny this thing with the water. Um my
[25:37] dog has been quite unwell and one of the
[25:39] things that happened was he was refusing
[25:41] food and water for a while. He'd
[25:42] basically given up. And then
[25:45] I one day I got so like, "You must drink
[25:48] because you're going to die." And then I
[25:50] sort of stopped myself and I was like,
[25:52] "This is the most unspiritual thing I've
[25:53] done in a really long time." Because if
[25:56] he doesn't want to live, I should just
[25:57] allow him whatever. And then I just had
[26:00] this quiet conversation with him. I was
[26:02] like, "If you don't drink, you know,
[26:04] this is like the end of this, but but I
[26:06] accept that." And then of course he
[26:08] walked over and drank straight away.
[26:10] >> [laughter]
[26:12] >> Yeah.
[26:12] >> That's beautiful.
[26:13] >> Mhm.
[26:15] >> I I think there's a lot to be said in
[26:18] rather than be missionary about yourself
[26:21] um rather than others.
[26:22] >> Yeah.
[26:23] >> You are the project.
[26:24] >> Mhm.
[26:25] >> I I really believe if if you really
[26:27] focus on developing yourself
[26:28] spiritually, then that energy just
[26:30] radiates and people want to know.
[26:33] Like if you look at a lot of, you know,
[26:35] enlightened people, you know, very
[26:37] strong spiritual individuals,
[26:39] they radiate attraction. They radiate
[26:41] people wanting to understand. They
[26:43] radiate the right people also.
[26:45] Right? Just by being your truest, most
[26:47] authentic, spiritually powerful self, I
[26:48] think
[26:49] has huge waves and impact.
[26:52] >> I just up the Gita.
[26:53] >> Yeah.
[26:54] >> And I mean it's bang on the money.
[26:57] Uh we're reading from chapter 3, verse
[26:59] number 26. Here's the translation for
[27:01] you.
[27:02] So as not to disrupt the minds of
[27:04] ignorant men attached to the fruits of
[27:06] results of prescribed duties,
[27:09] a learned person should not induce them
[27:12] to stop work.
[27:14] Rather by working in a spirit of
[27:16] devotion,
[27:18] he should engage them in all sorts of
[27:19] activities for the gradual development
[27:21] of Krishna consciousness.
[27:24] And uh I think it really highlights this
[27:26] point of not making them the project.
[27:29] >> Mhm.
[27:30] >> A learned person should not induce them
[27:32] to stop work. Like, don't don't stop
[27:33] everything and give up and move to the
[27:35] forest and become a forest dweller and
[27:37] like wear robes and join me. Join me.
[27:39] You must join the mission.
[27:41] Um but rather by working in a spirit of
[27:43] devotion,
[27:45] and keep and note the word is must. It's
[27:47] this this no like inducing.
[27:49] Uh rather by working in a spirit of
[27:51] devotion, you should engage them in all
[27:53] sorts of activities for the gradual
[27:55] development of Krishna consciousness.
[27:57] All sorts of activities.
[27:59] >> Mhm.
[28:00] >> Yeah.
[28:00] >> You know when George Harrison first met
[28:02] Srila Prabhupada, apparently he was just
[28:04] like ready to
[28:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[28:06] >> give it all up and move into the temple
[28:08] and wear orange. And And Srila
[28:09] Prabhupada was like, "No, that is not,
[28:11] you know, where you should just continue
[28:14] what you're doing."
[28:15] >> Yeah.
[28:16] >> And And share.
[28:20] >> Yeah.
[28:20] >> That way.
[28:22] >> You know, there's an awesome interesting
[28:23] thing. So it's like when we're talking
[28:25] about when someone gets really excited
[28:27] about spiritual path and they try to
[28:28] tell others about it and someone uh
[28:31] perhaps doesn't share share the same
[28:33] enthusiasm, so that individual feels
[28:35] personally attacked by that whole thing.
[28:37] Cuz there's a lot of attachment to this
[28:39] is my thing and I it is really cool.
[28:41] Verify that. Validate that, please. Do
[28:43] you know? And like, you know, and And
[28:45] like not what you you don't get what I'm
[28:48] seeing You don't see what I'm seeing
[28:49] here. You're not experiencing what I'm
[28:50] experiencing here. Why do I feel so
[28:52] hurt?
[28:53] >> Yeah.
[28:53] >> I think that's that maturity. It also
[28:55] takes maturity. It takes time to Roots.
[28:57] I think
[28:58] >> Exactly. It's about having, yeah, you're
[28:59] so grounded in your own practice that it
[29:01] doesn't really matter whether other
[29:03] people around you approve of it
[29:05] >> Yeah.
[29:05] >> or take to it or agree with you.
[29:08] >> Yeah.
[29:08] >> Yeah.
[29:09] >> The verse even starts in na buddhibhi
[29:12] dam janayet, which means so as not to
[29:14] disrupt the minds.
[29:16] >> Mhm.
[29:17] >> That you don't want to disturb people
[29:21] by sharing.
[29:24] And I think that Okay, we bring it back
[29:25] full circle to friends and family, our
[29:27] nearest and dearest.
[29:29] When have we wanted to do anything that
[29:31] we love to show them love by disturbing
[29:33] them?
[29:35] We don't show love by disturbing people.
[29:39] Like, I'm just thinking about my aunties
[29:40] and uncles who
[29:43] Ah, [sighs] they're close, but like
[29:44] they're not quite there yet with the
[29:46] whole Krishna bhakti thing.
[29:48] I think the worst thing I could do is to
[29:50] disturb their mind by giving them
[29:51] something a bit too harsh, bit too soon.
[29:54] Bit too harsh or a bit too soon, I
[29:55] should say.
[29:57] >> So, I will challenge this because I
[29:58] think sometimes love does look like
[30:01] disturbing the mind of others and
[30:04] setting boundaries and disagreeing and
[30:08] you know, it's like otherwise you're
[30:09] just in codependency
[30:11] where you're pleasing
[30:13] >> Mhm.
[30:13] >> all the time. So, sometimes, you know,
[30:15] there's an expression tough love.
[30:16] >> Mhm.
[30:18] >> And
[30:19] yeah.
[30:20] >> I just don't think it works often.
[30:23] >> But I think also the way that Krishna
[30:24] loves us is not always
[30:26] >> Yeah, it's not always
[30:27] >> Oh, yeah. Talk about Kaliya. Talk about
[30:30] Putana. Talk about
[30:32] >> Rose and ducks, right? It's um And I
[30:34] think this is why like for the elevated
[30:36] soul, they're able to
[30:38] It's so It's very interesting, right?
[30:39] They say that there's three levels to a
[30:41] devotee. They say the base level is a a
[30:44] kanishtha who only sees Krishna in the
[30:46] temple. Their faith is weak, but also
[30:49] their level of knowledge is weak.
[30:51] >> Yeah.
[30:52] >> Then you have what is called as the
[30:53] madhyam, the intermediate devotee, who
[30:57] um
[30:58] faith is strong and knowledge
[31:01] is is is strong, but sometimes falters,
[31:04] but it says that a madhyam devotee is
[31:06] able to properly discriminate between
[31:08] how people what is best for someone.
[31:11] Uh and and how they should receive
[31:12] Krishna.
[31:13] And Srila Prabhupada often says to to
[31:15] become a teacher of bhakti, one must try
[31:17] to attain the the madhyam platform at
[31:19] least, because they have faith and they
[31:21] have
[31:22] knowledge enough to discriminate
[31:23] appropriately.
[31:25] Whereas the um
[31:27] uttama, the the advanced devotee,
[31:30] they have no discrimination.
[31:32] Because they just see the soul in
[31:33] everyone. And so they just give
[31:35] unconditionally.
[31:36] But this element of discrimination
[31:39] or intelligent discrimination to know I
[31:41] I know I'm elevated enough to see where
[31:44] your consciousness is at and therefore
[31:47] share with you to that to that degree.
[31:48] And I think we struggle cuz we think we
[31:50] know, we think we're at that madhyam
[31:51] level, but a lot of the time we're just
[31:53] projecting our own
[31:55] our own, you know, internal insecurities
[31:58] or whatever it may be on someone else.
[31:59] >> Well, I also think sometimes I find in
[32:01] my yoga classes, for example, if I I try
[32:04] to share some bhakti philosophy or
[32:06] principles or and then once in a while I
[32:09] sort of stumble a bit over my own words
[32:11] and I have this realization I was like,
[32:13] actually I haven't really understood
[32:14] this. And there I am sitting on the mat
[32:16] like the teacher.
[32:17] >> [laughter]
[32:18] >> And then it comes to me to sort of like,
[32:19] actually I couldn't explain that in
[32:22] layman terms.
[32:23] >> Yeah.
[32:23] >> And that was like that for me being a
[32:25] lawyer, that I always knew if I couldn't
[32:27] explain something super simple, it meant
[32:30] I hadn't really understood it.
[32:31] >> Yeah.
[32:32] >> And I think it's like that with our
[32:34] philosophy as as
[32:36] >> The other piece in there is like I'm
[32:38] just thinking about my relationship with
[32:39] my spiritual teacher, and I know you
[32:41] said that you don't see people as
[32:42] projects.
[32:44] I like to think that my spiritual
[32:45] teacher is seeing me as not just a
[32:48] one-year, 10-year project, not just a
[32:51] lifetime project, but seeing me from
[32:53] like this kind of grand overview, like a
[32:55] bird's-eye view of the multiple amounts
[32:57] of lifetimes that I've had.
[32:59] And in that way is not trying to force
[33:02] me and pigeonhole me to be exactly the
[33:06] way I I need to be, but just being
[33:08] patient with me. Like every time I've
[33:10] had an interaction with my guru, it's
[33:12] always been very lovingly directional.
[33:15] It's always been very sensitive, very
[33:18] honoring of where I'm at, but also
[33:20] giving a slight nudge and just be like
[33:22] now you need you need to do this. Like
[33:24] just like
[33:25] giving a kind of hint that I need to
[33:28] transform my way of thinking or my way
[33:30] of serving. And so I think with um
[33:34] Yeah, can we enter into a bird's-eye
[33:37] view of other people as well? Like
[33:38] rather than trying to make them the
[33:40] perfect, you know, fit
[33:42] like the Krishna in this lifetime, can
[33:45] we see it as they may never come in that
[33:47] in this lifetime and that's okay, and I
[33:49] may never get there myself.
[33:51] >> Mhm.
[33:51] >> Like I
[33:52] >> [laughter]
[33:52] >> might be really off the mark.
[33:54] >> Yeah, we're not all so high and mighty
[33:56] that we're going to make it in this
[33:57] >> Yeah.
[33:57] >> [laughter]
[33:59] >> Come on.
[33:59] >> Who do we think we are?
[34:01] >> What's that verse Sri Guru Charanam?
[34:03] There's this uh he's taken me from the
[34:06] uh
[34:07] Oh, no, that's uh sorry. Om
[34:09] agyanatimirdhasya gyananjana shalakaya
[34:11] chakshurunmilitam yena tasmai shri
[34:14] gurave namah. That my spiritual
[34:15] teacher's taken me from this like dark
[34:19] dark darkness and given me the the
[34:22] light the torchlight of knowledge and
[34:25] yeah, filled my heart with
[34:27] transcendental knowledge. It It takes
[34:29] time. It's like that can't happen
[34:30] immediately, but that's the role of a
[34:32] teacher, a preacher, a giver, a sharer,
[34:35] inspirer. Bhakti is it's
[34:37] being patient with others.
[34:40] And being patient knowing that you're
[34:41] also quite you've got your ticket
[34:43] waiting in the waiting room of God for
[34:44] many lifetimes, too.
[34:46] So, it'll take time.
[34:48] Um should we read the lila?
[34:51] >> Let's read the lila.
[34:52] >> All right. So, prepared we have in this
[34:55] episode of Assault Steak a lila
[34:58] based on the life of Prahlad and
[35:01] Hiranyakashipu.
[35:03] And by the way, at first glance, this
[35:05] story might seem like a story about
[35:07] persecution, especially if you know it,
[35:10] then you might see it as a story of
[35:12] persecution and torture of Prahlad by
[35:15] his father Hiranyakashipu. But actually,
[35:17] I think it's a story about loving
[35:19] someone who refuses to change.
[35:23] Could be seen like that. Loving someone
[35:25] who refuses to change.
[35:27] Just think about that for a second.
[35:28] Loving someone who refuses to change.
[35:30] Prahlad never stops to talking about
[35:32] Krishna in his childhood.
[35:35] But he also never argues.
[35:38] He never manipulates. He never shames
[35:41] Hiranyakashipu. He never condemns his
[35:43] father.
[35:45] He never says, "You're going to hell."
[35:50] Instead, Prahlad
[35:52] he only answers when he's asked.
[35:55] He remains very peaceful. Prahlad
[35:57] remains very respectful throughout his
[36:00] interactions with his father.
[36:03] And he never compromises his truth.
[36:08] He never loses compassion.
[36:10] Even when his father repeatedly tries to
[36:13] hurt him and even more extremely tries
[36:16] to kill him.
[36:17] Then comes this extraordinary ending in
[36:19] the story
[36:21] when Hiranyakashipu,
[36:23] he challenges Prahlad and he says, "Is
[36:25] your God everywhere?"
[36:27] And Prahlad says, "Yes." And said, is he
[36:29] even in this pillar?
[36:31] He said, yes, my father, he's he's in
[36:33] the pillar. And Hiranyakashipu draws a
[36:35] weapon and strikes the pillar and out
[36:37] comes Narasimha Dev, this half-man,
[36:39] half-lion form of God.
[36:41] And when Narasimha Dev kills
[36:43] Hiranyakashipu,
[36:45] Prahlada doesn't celebrate.
[36:48] He prays.
[36:49] What does he pray, you ask?
[36:52] For his father.
[36:53] He prays for his dad.
[36:56] Not for revenge,
[36:58] not for justice,
[37:00] not so he can do a victory lap,
[37:02] but he prays for his father to get some
[37:05] mercy from God.
[37:07] And I think
[37:09] where this will connect with what we're
[37:10] talking about is that
[37:12] Prahlada, yes, never made his father
[37:14] into a project.
[37:17] He made him an object of compassion. And
[37:20] that's, I mean, incredibly moving that
[37:23] Prahlada could If Prahlada could pray
[37:25] for the man that And not just the man,
[37:27] if he could pray for the dad who tried
[37:29] to kill him, can I love my mom? Or can I
[37:32] love my sister? Can I love my neighbor?
[37:35] Can I love my friend
[37:37] who simply doesn't want to come to the
[37:38] kirtan?
[37:41] >> That's a radical ask, kirtan.
[37:42] >> Hey.
[37:42] >> [laughter]
[37:44] >> I mean, it's humbling, no? It's
[37:45] humbling.
[37:46] If I if If Prahlada can pray for his
[37:48] father who's trying to kill him,
[37:50] can I just be compassionate to that dear
[37:53] friend or that dear family member in our
[37:55] life who doesn't want to come to kirtan,
[37:57] doesn't want to Can Can I just be loving
[37:59] of that? Can I be compassionate on that?
[38:02] It's very humbling, I think. Prahlada,
[38:04] what what a person, huh? What a
[38:05] personality.
[38:06] >> Mhm.
[38:08] >> Hot takes.
[38:10] One-liner for you, what's really struck
[38:12] you from this conversation?
[38:14] >> The mission is me, not them.
[38:16] >> Mhm.
[38:18] >> Can't drop the mic, but yeah, mic drop.
[38:21] >> Invite, don't convince.
[38:23] >> Mhm.
[38:24] I can't do it in like that one sutra
[38:26] line manner. Um
[38:28] for me it would be
[38:30] yeah, can I
[38:32] see from the eyes of Prahlad. That for
[38:33] me was quite striking, quite moving.
[38:36] If Prahlad and Haridas Thakur can be
[38:39] compassionate upon their persecutors,
[38:41] can't I just be compassionate about
[38:43] someone who doesn't want to come to
[38:45] kirtan?
[38:48] Bonus content for you, the ball is back.
[38:52] Seems like we have only got one type of
[38:53] game right now. I promise there'll be
[38:54] more.
[38:56] But let's see what there is.
[38:57] All right, let's see. What is Maya,
[39:00] illusion, explained to a five-year-old
[39:03] in one sentence?
[39:07] My kid's five, okay.
[39:09] What would I say to him?
[39:13] Anything that is not Krishna is Maya.
[39:21] >> [laughter]
[39:25] [gasps]
[39:27] >> Okay.
[39:28] >> Here we go.
[39:30] Explain karma in 20 seconds.
[39:34] >> We'll tell you when to go. Thank you.
[39:36] 1
[39:37] 2 3 go.
[39:39] >> Do good, get good. Do bad, get bad. Do
[39:42] spiritual, no good and bad. There you
[39:45] go.
[39:46] Done.
[39:47] Oh man, that was a commercial. The
[39:49] pressure's on, you know.
[39:53] >> Oh, who is a bhakti saint or teacher you
[39:56] would love to have dinner with?
[39:58] >> Mhm.
[39:59] >> I mean
[40:01] Oh, it's a hard one.
[40:03] It would either have to be Srila
[40:05] Prabhupada, which I'm probably going to
[40:07] land on.
[40:09] Yeah, actually that's what I'm going to
[40:10] say.
[40:11] >> No, no, only hear the all. I want to
[40:12] hear the all.
[40:13] >> No, that is a secret. It's a secret.
[40:17] >> Should tell us when the camera stop
[40:18] rolling.
[40:19] Maybe why don't you guys put it in the
[40:20] comment section below what answers to
[40:22] our questions. How would you What the
[40:24] Hold on, let's read you the questions
[40:25] one more time so you can land them
[40:27] again. Mine was
[40:29] What is Maya or illusion in one sentence
[40:32] explain to a 5-year-old? Yours was?
[40:34] >> Explain karma in 20 seconds.
[40:37] >> And yours?
[40:39] >> Who is a back to saying the teacher you
[40:41] love to have dinner with?
[40:44] >> Leave us a comment in this comment
[40:45] section below. Thank you all so much for
[40:47] watching. Appreciate you all being here.
[40:48] We love you very much even though we
[40:50] cannot see you. I'm imagining all of you
[40:52] listening to this
[40:52] >> [music]
[40:53] >> um with a smile, grateful.
[40:56] And we're grateful that you are here
[40:58] with us.
[40:58] >> [music]
[40:58] >> And uh thank you so much for listening
[41:00] to this episode.
[41:01] Like and subscribe. Send it to a friend.
[41:04] Um but don't do it in a harsh way, yeah?
[41:06] Do it in a kind way. Maybe you want to
[41:08] send it with an apology saying, "I
[41:10] listened to this episode and I realized
[41:12] I need to be more grateful for what we
[41:13] have in our friendship and our
[41:14] connection than trying to convert you to
[41:16] something that you maybe uh
[41:18] you know, that I was immature about.
[41:20] Maybe you want to do it in that way.
[41:21] >> [music]
[41:22] >> Um but sending you lots of love. Thank
[41:23] you so much for being here. See you on
[41:24] the next episode. For soul's sake,
[41:27] adieu, ball.