Transcript
[0:00] We live in what I call dead time. You're
[0:03] in a state of sleep. Life seems a little
[0:05] bit flat. You don't know why you're
[0:07] unhappy. Something is missing. When
[0:09] you're a child, you're seeing the world
[0:11] for the first time. You're in awe of
[0:13] [music] everything. Everything was
[0:15] magical. That is what you miss. You miss
[0:17] that openness [music] to experience.
[0:19] It's because the culture has programmed
[0:21] you to think a certain [music] way. I
[0:23] like to imagine a kind of a circle. It's
[0:25] invisible to you, but your thoughts
[0:27] never leave that circle. So we have
[0:29] cosmic, biological, pagan, childhood,
[0:32] [music] neural, interspecies, love,
[0:35] historical, demon, aesthetic, dynamical,
[0:38] and death, which we're going to be
[0:39] unpacking in this conversation.
[0:41] >> Yes. And the sublime are moments where
[0:43] you touch something outside that circle.
[0:46] It's like an electric shock.
[0:47] >> When you initially had the idea to write
[0:49] a book around this, you envision
[0:51] yourself traveling in the Amazon.
[0:53] >> Been sitting in my mind and then one day
[0:55] I had a stroke. Within 30 seconds, I
[0:58] would be dead. But now I can't go out. I
[1:02] [music] can't take a hike. I can barely
[1:03] walk from room to room. And then I would
[1:06] sit out in our backyard and I'd realize,
[1:07] [music] all right, this is my Amazon.
[1:10] The point of all this is it's like
[1:12] awakening up to the sublime and all the
[1:14] little tiny little [music] details of
[1:16] life. If you walk around today enclosed
[1:18] in your thoughts, stop for a moment and
[1:19] go, I'm alive. How did this happen? What
[1:23] are some practical examples? First of
[1:25] all, just
[1:32] Hey everyone, welcome back to the No
[1:34] Thyself podcast. Our guest today needs
[1:36] no introduction. He's one of the most
[1:37] prolific and powerful writers of our
[1:40] time. Many people know him for his work
[1:43] regarding human nature, power,
[1:45] seduction, mastery. Today, we're diving
[1:47] deep into the sublime and why it largely
[1:50] feels so absent from modern
[1:52] civilization. today. Robert Green, thank
[1:55] you for being here.
[1:55] >> Thank you for inviting me. My pleasure.
[1:58] >> The pleasure is mine indeed.
[2:01] >> What an incredible book.
[2:02] >> Oh, thank you.
[2:03] >> And work. And I know that when you
[2:05] initially had the idea to write a book
[2:07] around this over 20 years ago. Um, you
[2:11] envisioned yourself traveling to
[2:13] mountains abroad and the Amazon and
[2:15] swimming with dolphins and the Gobi
[2:18] Desert. And I would love for you to set
[2:19] the stage for what transpired with your
[2:21] stroke and how you had to rediscover the
[2:24] sublime in the everyday surroundings.
[2:28] >> Well, I initially got interested in the
[2:30] subject of the sublime. I think around
[2:31] the year 2000. I read a book
[2:35] kind of an academic book about the
[2:36] literature of the sublime. that the
[2:39] ideas seem so weird and interesting to
[2:41] me because I'm always looking for ideas
[2:44] that are not in the ordinary that people
[2:46] don't that you don't normally come
[2:48] across things that are kind of exotic or
[2:51] strange. So I wanted to write a book on
[2:53] the subject because it intrigued me.
[2:55] It's also a challenge because the
[2:57] sublime is essentially experiences that
[3:00] go beyond words that are hard to
[3:02] verbalize. So how you write a book about
[3:04] something you can't verbalize? I love
[3:06] challenges like that. Anyways, it had
[3:08] been sitting in my mind and I kept
[3:10] getting distracted from it and then one
[3:12] day I was driving my car in Los Angeles.
[3:16] Uh my girlfriend in the passenger seat
[3:19] and suddenly she starts yelling at me to
[3:22] pull over to pull over. I said, "Well,
[3:23] what's going on? What's wrong? She's
[3:24] just insisting I pull over." I started
[3:27] getting out of the car. I was all kind
[3:28] of confused. Then I got back in the car
[3:31] and everything started going really
[3:32] weird and then I was unconscious.
[3:36] I had no idea what was going on. She'd
[3:38] seen that I was really slurring my words
[3:41] and half my face was drooping in a way
[3:43] that was quite frightening. Anyway, I
[3:46] wake up in a hospital. I don't know
[3:48] where I am. I don't know what happened
[3:50] and I'm a little bit frightened and I'm
[3:53] a little bit something strange has
[3:55] happened because I have these weird
[3:56] sensations like a strange taste in my
[3:59] mouth of feeling something something
[4:00] different in my body has happened. I
[4:03] don't know where I am. Finally, I get
[4:05] into a hospital when they explain it and
[4:09] I'm just in this kind of very excited,
[4:13] elated, almost ecstatic state of mind.
[4:16] The nurses thought something might have
[4:18] I might have suffered some I had a
[4:20] stroke obviously. So basically a blood
[4:22] clot in the right side of my neck was
[4:25] stopping the blood flowing to my brain
[4:28] and within 30 seconds if the ambulance
[4:31] hadn't arrived I would either be brain
[4:33] dead or I would be dead. So I was very
[4:36] lucky. Anyway, they thought I had
[4:38] suffered some kind of brain damage cuz I
[4:39] was laughing and I was so happy.
[4:43] And um and then so I spent a week in the
[4:45] hospital and I'm still in this kind of
[4:47] elated mood, but the left side of my
[4:50] body is like paralyzed. I can't move it
[4:52] at all. And in the ambulance ride home,
[4:56] I'm kind of absorbing this very weird
[4:59] experience having like feeling a kind of
[5:01] death crawling inside of your skin, you
[5:03] know, hard to explain.
[5:06] Um I'm trying to just sort of figure out
[5:08] what it all was and then the idea comes
[5:10] suddenly comes back to me about oh the
[5:12] sublime. You've been meaning to write
[5:14] this book and it's kind of a book that
[5:17] takes you out of the ordinary circle of
[5:19] of experience in daily life. Robert, you
[5:23] just had the ultimate experience that
[5:24] took you out of the circle of daily
[5:26] life. You had something you were
[5:27] entering death at some point. So, I go,
[5:30] "All right, the gods, whoever they may
[5:33] be, are telling me this is the time to
[5:34] write the book." Um, so I get I'm I'm
[5:38] kind of excited. I get home. I'm going
[5:40] to write this book finally because I've
[5:42] been meaning to write it for so long.
[5:45] And then I realize that I was kind of
[5:48] like I didn't know what I was getting
[5:50] myself into because I can't type. This
[5:53] left hand is still kind of frozen. Um,
[5:57] so and I'm used to like handwriting and
[6:00] then typing really quickly and editing.
[6:01] I haven't, you know, I had a very fast
[6:03] typist, so I'm starting, oh, I'm gonna
[6:05] have to handwrite. I'm gonna have to
[6:06] handwrite this entire damn book, right?
[6:10] That's not going to be easy cuz it's
[6:13] it's much slower process. You have to
[6:15] like handwrite, then you have to edit
[6:17] handwriting, then you have to edit more
[6:19] handwriting.
[6:20] But worse than that, I can't go out. I
[6:24] can't take a hike. I was someone who was
[6:26] very active. I was doing a lot of
[6:28] swimming. I was hiking up in mountain
[6:30] taking very long hikes. Um, mountain
[6:33] biking. I can't I can barely walk from
[6:36] room to room. And so the confines of my
[6:40] life were had shrunk to like a pretty
[6:42] small space.
[6:44] I compared it to like being in a bird
[6:46] cage because I was have been flying all
[6:50] around and now I was sort of stuck in
[6:52] this bird cage and outside I could see
[6:54] other birds flying about like I was
[6:56] trapped and so I was kind of depressed.
[7:00] So I had this moment of ecstasy elation
[7:05] coming so close to death and at the same
[7:08] time now I was just like so led
[7:10] depressed about my body and everything.
[7:13] How am I going to be able to write about
[7:15] the sublime when I don't feel it? I
[7:18] don't I feel so trapped.
[7:21] So slowly, I had to return back to that
[7:24] time in the hospital room.
[7:27] It's, as I said, it's hard to verbalize,
[7:29] but when that death feeling comes inside
[7:32] of you and you and you get past it, the
[7:36] world not just only looks different, it
[7:38] feels different. It's hard to explain.
[7:41] there's there's an intensity to the sky,
[7:43] to colors, to things that you see.
[7:46] So, I had I kind of returned to that
[7:48] just looking out my the window in my
[7:50] office. Okay, I can get back that
[7:52] feeling.
[7:54] And then I [clears throat] would sit out
[7:55] in our backyard, which was very which is
[7:57] quite small, but it's it's very
[7:58] pleasant. And I'd realize, all right,
[8:01] this is my Amazon. This is my goi
[8:04] desert. The butterflies, the
[8:07] hummingbirds, these are my dolphins,
[8:08] right? This little enclosed space is
[8:11] full of all of this weird life.
[8:14] Grasshoppers, possums would pass
[8:16] through, squirrels, all sorts of birds,
[8:19] you know, ants and every spiders,
[8:22] everything you can imagine in this
[8:23] enclosed space. And I started focusing
[8:26] in on that and how strange and weird the
[8:30] world is, you know, the everything. And
[8:34] um and I would look up at the sky and I
[8:37] would see the clouds and the clouds
[8:39] suddenly struck me as strange things to
[8:42] look at. We don't think about our
[8:44] environment as being strange but if you
[8:47] do think about it it's very strange
[8:49] because probably there is no other
[8:52] planet in the universe that has clouds
[8:54] that has a sky like this. It's a very
[8:56] unique thing to planet earth. But who
[8:58] thinks about such things? Suddenly
[9:00] clouds were anyway the point I'm saying
[9:03] the point of all this is
[9:06] it's like awakening up to the sublime
[9:08] and all the little tiny little details
[9:10] of life. It's like chills passing
[9:12] through you continually as you start
[9:14] returning to the ground of being alive
[9:17] the world around you. And so slowly it
[9:20] starts coming back inside of me as I
[9:23] just calm down. and I slow down and I
[9:24] see that it I don't have to be in the
[9:27] Amazon. It's right there in front of me.
[9:29] It's right outside my my window. So, I
[9:32] was a bird in a cage, but now I could
[9:34] like sort of go outside that cage, you
[9:37] know. So, anyway, that was kind of the
[9:39] process that that I went through. And in
[9:42] the beginning, I just never thought I'd
[9:45] get through this book because
[9:48] it was so laborious. But then slowly I
[9:51] start building momentum and starts as I
[9:54] started getting like to chapter seven of
[9:56] the 12th sort of ah I'm gonna get to the
[9:58] end and that kind of brought a kind of a
[10:00] a pretty ecstatic feeling as well like I
[10:03] I could manage this.
[10:04] >> It took what around six five six years
[10:07] to write seven
[10:08] >> seven
[10:09] >> and handwriting a book that's over 400
[10:13] pages is no joke
[10:15] 60 Yeah.
[10:16] >> Yeah. Well, yeah. You know, I can't even
[10:21] It's really hard to describe, but I
[10:24] would sit there with these notebooks and
[10:26] write a paragraph
[10:28] and then or or a story and then I'd have
[10:31] to go to another notebook and look at it
[10:33] and re copy it out like I was like the
[10:37] 13th century or something. Handwriting
[10:39] handwriting like that. And then this
[10:42] isn't very good. I have to go back to
[10:44] the other one and rewrite it there.
[10:46] Finally after like 12 versions of it, I
[10:50] would dictate it into the computer with
[10:52] a you know whispered transcription,
[10:55] print it out and then hand edit it on
[10:58] paper again and then finally trans
[11:02] dictate it one final time and then edit
[11:05] it with one hand, you know, and at times
[11:08] I couldn't read my own handwrit. I
[11:10] couldn't figure out where the paragraphs
[11:11] were and how they fit. So, it was um I
[11:16] don't recommend anybody trying to write
[11:18] a book like that today, but I managed.
[11:21] >> It's incredible that you um and in some
[11:24] ways you mentioned how it the challenge
[11:27] provided a unique gift like being forced
[11:30] to find the sublime in the quote unquote
[11:33] bird cage.
[11:34] >> Yeah.
[11:34] >> Whilst perhaps you wouldn't wouldn't
[11:37] choose that for anybody else, it did
[11:39] provide a unique challenge for you.
[11:41] >> Yeah. I had to um discover things about
[11:44] myself. I had to go deep into myself. I
[11:46] would see
[11:49] people
[11:50] running past my window, walking their
[11:52] dogs, riding their bicycles. I'd go,
[11:54] "God damn, I'm so jealous. I'm so
[11:57] jealous." But then I would think,
[12:00] "Yes, but they don't appreciate it. They
[12:02] don't know what they have. They're like
[12:04] asleep. They just take everything for
[12:06] granted. So, what is the gift that they
[12:08] have? They don't have a gift. I can at
[12:11] least imagine myself doing these things
[12:13] and it and feel what what it means to be
[12:16] alive, what it means to be human. So I'd
[12:19] kind of have to go through process like
[12:20] that. And then
[12:22] in the writing and the handwriting,
[12:26] I realized there's a slowness that it
[12:29] requires. And the slowness would
[12:31] actually work for me because I had to
[12:34] think on a deeper level.
[12:36] We don't realize that thinking has like
[12:40] layers and has levels. And so when
[12:42] you're so used to speed and everything's
[12:44] AI and everything's Google and
[12:46] everything, you're not really thinking
[12:48] on a deep level. You're just kind of
[12:50] skimming these surfaces. I had to like
[12:53] write and think and then rewrite and so
[12:56] slow that it engaged a level of thinking
[12:59] that to me was was deeper. And I
[13:01] probably could have gone even to a
[13:03] deeper level if I'd spent 14 years
[13:05] instead of seven. But I had I had to
[13:08] reach the end at some point.
[13:09] >> So tell me about this everyday
[13:12] consciousness circle, how so much of our
[13:14] life we spend in our own sort of
[13:17] perceptual box of sorts and then how you
[13:21] came across these 12 areas which we're
[13:23] going to be unpacking in this
[13:24] conversation.
[13:26] Well, the idea is that um because you
[13:29] know the sublime people think of the
[13:32] word well it just means something great
[13:33] you know I had a sublime breakfast or or
[13:36] whatever or vacation. So what do I mean
[13:38] by that word? I had to find like kind of
[13:40] a way to express it because I I knew it
[13:43] intuitively what it is but how can I
[13:44] express it to the reader.
[13:47] So my idea was that our minds live in a
[13:50] kind of a mental space. We don't think
[13:53] of it that way because there is no kind
[13:55] of limit to our minds. We can't think of
[13:57] it. But I like to imagine a kind of a
[14:00] circle. And within that circle, you're
[14:03] not aware of it. It's invisible to you.
[14:06] But your thoughts never leave that
[14:07] circle. They stay inside. The thoughts
[14:11] revolve around and around the same
[14:13] obsessions. You read you read an
[14:16] article, some ideas in it. Maybe
[14:18] occasionally a new idea comes to you,
[14:20] but then it's absorbed into the
[14:22] obsessive kind of roundabout thoughts
[14:24] that you have. The culture kind of
[14:27] inculcates in us a certain patterns of
[14:30] thinking. You're not aware that in 21st
[14:33] century United States of America, the
[14:36] culture has programmed you to think a
[14:38] certain way.
[14:40] When you read a lot of history like I
[14:42] do, you understand and it's pretty
[14:45] simple that in ancient China the thought
[14:48] processes were different. I mean they
[14:50] were human, they were conscious but
[14:52] their way of thinking, their value
[14:53] system was different. So we have our own
[14:56] values, our own logic, our own grammar,
[14:59] our own way of thinking and it's a
[15:01] circle that encloses us.
[15:03] Sometimes that circle can get very
[15:05] narrow, particularly if you get really
[15:07] rigid in your thoughts. And sometimes
[15:08] when you get older, that circle just
[15:10] starts narrowing because when you were
[15:12] born, when you were a child, it was
[15:14] actually fairly wide, but it remains a
[15:17] circle that you don't go outside of. And
[15:20] the sublime are moments where you touch
[15:23] something outside that circle and it's
[15:26] like an electric shock. It goes, whoa,
[15:29] I'm actually not in the real world.
[15:31] There's actually something more real out
[15:32] there. I'm living in this little human
[15:35] abstract world that people assume is
[15:37] reality but isn't. It's just words,
[15:39] symbols. There's something else out
[15:42] there that I'm not aware of. And
[15:44] suddenly I became aware of it. So there
[15:46] these little doorways. I like to
[15:48] envision it as a door outside of that
[15:51] circle and you're moving up towards it
[15:54] and you're peering through it and you're
[15:56] seeing that there's something else
[15:57] outside that that is beyond how you
[15:59] normally think, how you normally
[16:01] experience life.
[16:03] And when you peer through that doorway,
[16:06] you get this kind of powerful sensation.
[16:08] A little bit of it is fear because
[16:12] living inside that circle is
[16:13] comfortable. The world is familiar. It's
[16:16] easy. It's predictable. I I don't need
[16:18] to look at trees. I don't need to look
[16:19] at clouds. I just know what they are. So
[16:22] there's a little bit of fear as you go
[16:25] outside of your comfort zone. But
[16:27] there's also this sort of pleasure of
[16:30] like opening up of like waking up out of
[16:32] a dream kind of thing. So that's how I
[16:35] kind of explained that the circle
[16:36] metaphor.
[16:37] >> And how did you come up with these
[16:39] categories as being the most worthwhile
[16:41] as sort of doorways into the sublime
[16:44] outside the circle so to speak?
[16:45] >> Well, um
[16:48] I have a research method that I've been
[16:50] using for almost 30 years now where I
[16:54] read hundreds of books. This probably
[16:56] this book probably read like over 300
[16:59] books and I take note cards, right?
[17:02] >> It inspired me actually to get my own
[17:04] note card taking system. Really? So I'm
[17:06] in the early really early stages of
[17:07] that.
[17:08] >> Oh yeah. Are you writing you writing a
[17:09] book? You've written books?
[17:11] >> This would be my first Oh, fantastic.
[17:12] Well, let's talk about it.
[17:14] >> Um,
[17:15] >> yeah. So I devised it because
[17:20] I believe research is kind of the key to
[17:22] writing an interesting book.
[17:24] >> Yeah. absorbing ideas from other places
[17:26] and then making your own. But it becomes
[17:29] overwhelming. There's too much
[17:30] information. So putting everything into
[17:33] note cards gives me a way to organize
[17:35] it. So initially I'll have like 200 note
[17:40] card no sorry more like 500 note cards
[17:43] and as I go through them I see that
[17:44] there are themes
[17:46] and the themes kind of turn into
[17:49] chapters and so that's how the chapters
[17:51] evolved. Initially in when I first
[17:54] proposed the book I had maybe 20
[17:56] chapters 20 or 18 and then slowly I
[17:59] realized this isn't really a complete
[18:02] chapter that it's part of something else
[18:04] you know I had a chapter on the Dionian
[18:07] experience and then I realized well it
[18:10] actually fits in to the chapter on
[18:12] aesthetics and to other chapters I had a
[18:14] chapter on nature but then it's all the
[18:17] whole books about nature so I slowly
[18:20] just kind of put things in other one
[18:21] other categories ories and I ended up
[18:23] with 12. I like numbers like 12. So I I
[18:27] I kind of decided to to sort of stop
[18:29] there anyway. There's a little bit of
[18:30] arbitrary nature to it.
[18:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. 12 48.
[18:34] >> 11 would 11 wouldn't have been so nice.
[18:37] >> 12 fits into 48 kind of.
[18:39] >> Exactly. Um so we have cosmic,
[18:42] biological, pagan, childhood, neural,
[18:46] interspecies, love, historical, damon,
[18:50] aesthetic, dynamical, and death.
[18:53] >> Yes. So
[18:56] before we dive into cosmic, which would
[18:59] be the first one, you you refer to this
[19:01] modern reflex to like fufu away anything
[19:04] that can't be measured as the
[19:06] anti-sublime.
[19:07] Um, and when we're talking about the
[19:10] sublime, which is inherently it's a
[19:12] qualia, it's an it's an onlogical
[19:14] experience we were having that is in
[19:17] many ways ineffable, like words can't
[19:19] touch it, right? The map's not the
[19:20] territory. Um, could you could you share
[19:23] more about what you mean when you say
[19:24] the anti-sublime and how it's something
[19:26] that is actually robbing us of
[19:28] experiencing more of it?
[19:31] Well, um it's almost like a fear of
[19:35] something that's that's different,
[19:37] right? And so,
[19:40] you know, when you were a child, we all
[19:43] went through childhood. The world is
[19:45] experienced differently than when you
[19:47] get older. There's a slight magical
[19:51] quality to things, right? your
[19:53] imagination is is inhabiting the world
[19:56] around you and everything kind of feels
[19:59] alive.
[20:01] But then you get older and now we live
[20:03] in a rational scientific technological
[20:06] age and you look back on that and you
[20:08] look back on history and it seems
[20:10] superstitious.
[20:12] It seems irrational. It seems childish.
[20:15] Seems like a stage of life and of
[20:17] civilization that we have left behind.
[20:19] And you're so much more mature. You
[20:21] figured things out. You know what the
[20:23] world is like. You know, you read books,
[20:25] you you understand science. This is the
[20:28] world we live in. There's no there's
[20:30] nothing divine. There's nothing sacred.
[20:33] Things just are the way they are, right?
[20:36] And it's it reveals this tremendous
[20:38] discomfort with anything slightly
[20:41] different, anything that is that the
[20:44] breeze of the unknown because you are in
[20:47] a rush to know everything, to be certain
[20:49] of it, but you don't realize how
[20:51] irrational that is and how it's closing
[20:55] you off from any kind of wider
[20:57] experience.
[20:59] So I I remember this guy. I had been in
[21:02] the early stages of writing the book.
[21:04] I've been on a podcast and I was sort of
[21:06] explain the sublime and then there was a
[21:08] comment. I was like a YouTube comment or
[21:10] something. I don't normally read them
[21:11] but it caught my attention. It's like
[21:14] come on the universe is just the way it
[21:17] is. Things just happen the way they are.
[21:19] There's nothing else. There's no you
[21:20] don't need to read into this anything
[21:22] anything else. Science has shown us what
[21:24] the world is. And I post my reply to him
[21:29] was just a series of quotes from Albert
[21:31] Einstein.
[21:33] the most scientific person you can
[21:35] imagine saying, "The universe is a
[21:37] mystery. I'm like a child on the edge of
[21:39] the ocean. I don't know what anything
[21:41] is." If you don't have a sense of
[21:43] mystery and awe about the universe, your
[21:46] brain is dead, right? And so there's
[21:49] that reaction that things just have to
[21:51] be the way they are because it's
[21:53] comfortable because you want to think
[21:55] that you know everything and there's no
[21:57] zone of of any kind of experience that
[22:01] is mysterious that is unknown. And it's
[22:04] the anti-sublime because
[22:08] the need to transcend yourself to to
[22:11] feel like you are a part of something
[22:14] larger than just your individual self,
[22:16] your ego, is a deep human need. It goes
[22:20] back thousands of tens of thousands of
[22:22] years. It's who we are. Because as
[22:25] creatures that are aware of our
[22:26] mortality, of our death, the feeling of
[22:29] death just canceling out everything that
[22:32] we do makes life seem purposeless.
[22:34] There's no meaning. Why even go on? So
[22:37] we're always in search of something
[22:38] greater, something transcendent. To deny
[22:41] that is is just to like enclose yourself
[22:45] in in this kind of prison. And the only
[22:47] way I can feel of it is it's a
[22:49] tremendous tremendous fear of anything
[22:51] that is going to shake you up.
[22:54] And so I I say that there's a lot of the
[22:57] anti-sublime in the world today,
[22:59] particularly with algorithms and AI and
[23:02] how we see ourselves as machines
[23:04] essentially. And then there's also the
[23:07] false sublime. But just briefly, because
[23:09] it's such a need to feel that sense of
[23:11] transcendence of being something and you
[23:14] in order to have that, you have to kind
[23:16] of open yourself up to experience.
[23:19] But because the culture is all about
[23:21] speed and convenience and ease, you want
[23:24] to get that feeling of the sublime, the
[23:26] transcendent through quick and easy
[23:29] things, through entertainment, right?
[23:31] Through movies.
[23:34] When I look at movies today, like Marvel
[23:36] movies, etc. I I'm not focusing on the
[23:38] content. I'm looking at the imagery. And
[23:40] all of it is tried to give people a
[23:43] sense of something almost godlike and
[23:45] the power of film itself of displaying a
[23:48] kind of reality where we humans can do
[23:50] almost anything right fly through the
[23:53] air etc.
[23:55] It's almost trying to create a sense of
[23:57] the sublime in people that's quick and
[24:00] easy. That's just images that that are,
[24:02] you know, washing over you. You know,
[24:05] online porn, addictions, video games,
[24:09] all that kind of imagery is so
[24:11] fantastical and bizarre. It's trying to
[24:14] feel transcendent,
[24:16] but it's not coming from within
[24:18] anything. It's not coming from you. It's
[24:20] people imposing their sense of something
[24:23] exciting because you're bored and you're
[24:25] restless and you want something
[24:26] different and exciting. But the sublime
[24:29] has to be an experience that comes from
[24:31] within you. It can't come from without.
[24:34] It can't be coming from people trying to
[24:37] entertain you and amuse you. It has to
[24:39] be something that comes from within that
[24:41] that's an experience that you have
[24:43] that's completely your own. And so I
[24:46] find in the culture today because
[24:49] there's this deep deep deep need to feel
[24:51] something transcendent particularly in
[24:54] an age that is so robbed of enchantment
[24:57] that you're going to find try and get it
[24:58] in cheap ways. And that to me is the
[25:01] false sublime.
[25:03] And there's many words we could use to
[25:05] describe that, but it's a felt reality
[25:07] across the board, I think, on the globe
[25:09] that we're like living a simulacum of
[25:11] our life that instead of the intimate
[25:14] conversations around the campfire, so to
[25:16] speak, we have these social dialogues
[25:18] without the physical contact, right? And
[25:21] um we instead of having really
[25:23] nutrient-dense
[25:25] food from soil that is rich, we have
[25:27] these ultrarocessed substitutes. And in
[25:30] many ways we're malnourished and we have
[25:32] these like poor substitutions across the
[25:34] board of things that we need. And I
[25:36] think uh the framework and and we'll go
[25:39] make our our way around the the circle
[25:41] so to speak that like really give that
[25:43] re-enchantment and that reminder. So to
[25:46] start with cosmic you I love I love I
[25:49] loved it so much. And how does
[25:51] contemplating the sheer improbability of
[25:54] our own existence revoke the sublime for
[25:57] you?
[25:58] Well, [clears throat] I take I take the
[26:00] reader on a journey through what I can
[26:02] what I through my research is literally
[26:05] the history of the universe. Now, keep
[26:07] in mind that probably in 200 years
[26:09] that'll have to be rewritten from new
[26:11] discoveries. So, I have a degree of
[26:13] humility that what I'm describing isn't
[26:15] precisely the reality.
[26:17] But I'm taking you first of all just
[26:21] stop all of your the banal thoughts in
[26:23] your mind and contemplate one thing. The
[26:26] universe began
[26:28] with a big bang some 13.8 billion years
[26:31] ago. There was a moment when our
[26:33] universe began. What an insane thought.
[26:37] You can't even get your mind around it,
[26:39] right? But was there before the big
[26:42] bang? Was there what was there? What is
[26:45] this? To me, it's the most insane
[26:48] mindaltering thought that you can
[26:49] possibly have. And I read a book, a very
[26:53] technical book, but it was interesting
[26:55] called The First Three Minutes, where a
[26:57] physicist describes the first three
[27:00] minutes of our universe. It's insane.
[27:03] And so what it basically boils down to
[27:06] is there's these series of events that I
[27:08] don't know how physicists have been able
[27:10] to recreate it. It's pretty miraculous.
[27:13] So, first get understand that I'm not
[27:15] anti-science. There's a lot of science
[27:16] in this book and I find things that
[27:18] science is uncovering utterly sublime.
[27:21] Okay.
[27:23] So, there are all these series of events
[27:25] that occur in the history of our
[27:27] universe that could have easily gone
[27:30] differently. Temperatures couldn't have
[27:33] cooled down as quickly as they did.
[27:36] There may not have been no light in the
[27:37] universe. There may not have been any
[27:39] matter, right? atoms had to be able to
[27:42] to cool down enough so that they could
[27:44] combine to form matter. The first star
[27:46] was born by kind of some weird random
[27:50] set of circumstances. And in that star
[27:52] as it got bigger and bigger and got
[27:54] heated up, all these elements were
[27:57] cooked inside that became the elements
[27:59] that form planets that form that form
[28:02] life itself. Then the star explodes.
[28:05] First of all, think of the thought that
[28:07] there was just the first star in the
[28:09] universe. What a what an insane thought
[28:12] that is as well, right? What was there
[28:14] to see? There was nothing. There was
[28:16] just a darkness.
[28:18] Okay? On and on and on. There are these
[28:20] sequences of events that occur that
[28:23] could have easily gone differently.
[28:25] Okay? And then you forward billions of
[28:28] years to the birth of planet Earth and
[28:30] our solar system. you see more of these
[28:34] weird little random coincidences that
[28:36] occur like planet Earth was just this
[28:40] rock, right? It's just a rock and then
[28:42] it collides with another a moonlike
[28:45] planet called Thea which is about the
[28:47] same size as Earth. They collide and and
[28:50] then there's a massive explosion and
[28:53] because of that collision certain things
[28:55] happen to to this rock that is planet
[28:57] Earth that are going to be allowing us
[29:00] to have life to have an environment to
[29:02] have a have climate to have seasons and
[29:05] that that rock that hit us could easily
[29:08] have missed or could have come at a
[29:09] different angle. So there's all these
[29:11] other random sets of circumstances. the
[29:14] fact that we're the precise distance
[29:16] from the sun that allows for the for the
[29:20] life to form that this rock that that is
[29:23] planet earth which has all these craters
[29:25] from meteors suddenly there's a
[29:28] thousand-year rain
[29:31] and first of all conceive of that
[29:33] raining for a thousand years they don't
[29:35] know exactly but just continual rain and
[29:38] where did this water come from that was
[29:40] also a series of weird random
[29:42] circumstances
[29:43] So the planet is filling with water. And
[29:46] so all these other events are occurring
[29:49] that allow for the formation of life in
[29:52] these seas, in these oceans that are
[29:54] that fill the planet, right? They're
[29:56] these basins. So when you're in the
[29:59] ocean, if you go sailing or you're
[30:00] swimming in the ocean, understand that
[30:02] those are basins formed by meteors that
[30:05] collided with Earth, right? So that's
[30:07] what you're swimming in, which is also
[30:09] another rather strange thought. on and
[30:12] on and on. The extinction of the
[30:14] dinosaurs, the fact that homo sapiens
[30:16] nearly disappeared, the Neanderthalss
[30:19] might have been roaming the planet
[30:20] instead of homo sapiens, which might
[30:21] have been much better in some ways.
[30:24] Okay, we won't go into that. Um, then
[30:27] how our brains form, how conscious, how
[30:29] language forms, how just your parents
[30:31] meeting was a random event that could
[30:34] have not happened. You wouldn't be who
[30:36] you are. Multiply that by 70,000
[30:39] generations of couples that met that
[30:41] allow for you. If you add all this up,
[30:45] it is absolutely insane. The
[30:49] astronomical improbability of us being
[30:52] here, you and I talking is impossible to
[30:55] calculate. All these things had to fall
[30:57] exactly into place, right? It's bizarre.
[31:01] At some point, you almost wonder, did it
[31:04] happen for a purpose? Now, I'm not I'm
[31:08] not Christian or anything, but you
[31:10] almost think that there's some kind of
[31:11] creator out there that's allowing for
[31:13] these things to fall into place so that
[31:16] we can be conscious
[31:18] and so that the universe could have
[31:20] consciousness and we could understand
[31:22] and know all of these things. It almost
[31:25] feels like that. I'm not going to say
[31:26] whether that's true or not, but if you
[31:29] walk around today with your two feet
[31:31] wandering around the city, kind of
[31:33] enclosed in your thoughts, and you stop
[31:35] for a moment and go, "Jesus Christ,
[31:38] [laughter] I'm alive. How did this
[31:41] happen? It's just so random. It's so
[31:43] weird." It makes you look at your world
[31:47] in a much different light. You take
[31:49] nothing for granted. You realize that
[31:52] your own body,
[31:55] your own physiology is the product of
[31:58] these single cellled organisms in the
[32:00] oceans 800 million years ago and the
[32:02] first nervous systems. Your brains are
[32:06] formed from all sorts of other animals
[32:08] that evolved, rip, reptiles, etc. Your
[32:11] body is this creation out of a weird mix
[32:15] of random events throughout evolution.
[32:18] I'm sorry, but it's it's just the most
[32:20] insane story. And in in the second
[32:23] chapter I write, if we just stopped and
[32:26] thought about it, we would create
[32:28] religions and temples to literally
[32:31] contemplate and venerate these random
[32:34] series of circumstances that allowed for
[32:36] us to be who we are right now.
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[33:57] It's something that I feel very
[34:00] passionate about as well and have had a
[34:03] natural inclination towards uh
[34:06] philosophy, mysticism, and just being
[34:08] dumbfounded for existence existing at
[34:11] all. And the way that you just walked us
[34:13] through the origin of the universe which
[34:15] is of the spark notes of the spark
[34:16] notes. Of course it is. Of course. Um
[34:19] but it's I get the feeling when
[34:22] listening and I'm sure everybody's
[34:23] tuning in that uh
[34:25] >> we just take our everyday consciousness
[34:27] for granted like we forget all that came
[34:30] before us that made this human
[34:32] experience of having an experience of
[34:35] oursel and the world even possible. uh
[34:38] the finetuning you know um of the
[34:41] universe and all the yeah the perfect
[34:44] tuning of the laws of physics that made
[34:46] life on earth possible is just it's it's
[34:50] amazing and I think that when you say
[34:52] that we should be erecting temples to
[34:55] contemplate the sheer miraculous nature
[34:57] of our own existence um I think people
[34:59] feel that especially as you know uh
[35:02] people have there's been like an exodus
[35:04] from religion in the modern
[35:06] post-enlightenment secular world. We've
[35:08] kind of thrown the baby out with the
[35:09] bathwater. There is this need for
[35:13] communal spaces to contemplate these
[35:15] things and to have these experiences of
[35:17] the divine. And you know, that used to
[35:19] be the church and for many good reasons.
[35:22] People don't, you know, ascribe to the
[35:25] same religions. Um, but I think when you
[35:28] explore in the third chapter around the
[35:30] pagan sublime and the elusian mysteries,
[35:33] um, it speaks directly to this need.
[35:35] It's a real need to access in communal
[35:38] collective settings. So, what were the
[35:40] Hallucinian mysteries and walk us
[35:42] through a bit of that need, that real
[35:44] human need we have?
[35:45] >> Well, um I'm I'm been, you know, my when
[35:49] I was in college, my major was ancient
[35:51] Greek. So, I'm sort of infused in the
[35:54] ancient world and I'm so deeply
[35:56] attracted to the ancient world. I can't
[35:59] explain why. the art of it and the
[36:01] architecture and just the everything
[36:03] about it just has a primal connection to
[36:06] me. And so having studied ancient Greek
[36:09] and being deeply involved in in in in
[36:12] the culture and in the language, there's
[36:14] always been this thing about the
[36:15] Eloinian mysteries.
[36:18] It was a series of rituals that probably
[36:20] had like a matriarchal origin. It was
[36:22] like an agriculture type festival.
[36:26] So one thing you have to understand is
[36:27] our ancient ancestors
[36:30] were fascinated by the phenomenon of
[36:32] life itself sprouting out of the ground
[36:35] that there were seasons that things
[36:37] would die in the winter and then
[36:39] suddenly they would plants would
[36:41] reappear in the spring. We take that
[36:44] completely for granted if we even ever
[36:45] see plants or vegetation. But to them it
[36:48] was like life is being reborn. It's a
[36:51] miracle. How does it happen? And so as
[36:54] we became agriculturalists
[36:57] that became a kind of a religious sort
[36:59] of phenomenon. And so out of that grew a
[37:03] series of gods, gods of fertility, gods
[37:06] of agriculture. And so the Elocian
[37:09] mysteries were kind of um kind of
[37:13] rotated around that idea. Okay. But the
[37:16] thing was nobody knows what they were.
[37:19] their mysteries
[37:21] and we this this ritual that was the
[37:24] eldian mysteries went on for like a
[37:27] thousand years. So imagine a ritual that
[37:31] everyone peasants, intellectuals, men
[37:34] and women of all classes were obsessed
[37:37] with and would go through and be
[37:39] initiated in for a thousand years. There
[37:42] must have been something incredibly
[37:43] powerful about it. Okay. But you could
[37:46] never reveal the anybody who revealed
[37:48] the secrets would be killed because that
[37:50] was the whole point. It's a mystery,
[37:52] right? It was supposed the secretness of
[37:54] it was was was made it sacred.
[37:58] So I gave myself the task of trying to
[38:01] uncover as much as I could about the
[38:03] mysteries knowing that there was a
[38:04] kernel that I could never understand.
[38:07] And so I studied all of the details of
[38:09] it, the people that they went to, what
[38:12] they wore, the clothes that they wore.
[38:14] um the rituals, the the the priestesses
[38:17] that led the procession from Athens to
[38:20] the city of Elusus, right? On and on and
[38:23] all the little details that I could find
[38:25] as much as possible. And essentially
[38:29] it revolves around the myth of Pphanie
[38:32] and Deer. Okay, Deer was the goddess of
[38:36] agriculture. As I said, probably an
[38:39] ancient matriarchal goddess.
[38:41] And she had a daughter, Pphanie, who one
[38:45] day was in the fields plucking flowers
[38:47] with her maiden girlfriends who were all
[38:50] nymphs.
[38:52] And Hades, the god of the underworld,
[38:54] suddenly sucked her into the underworld
[38:57] and raped her and made her the queen of
[38:59] the underworld. And now Pphanie was
[39:02] living in among the dead. She yearned
[39:05] for the light. She yearned to be back
[39:07] with her mother. She was so upset. And
[39:10] the mother de meter pleads for Zeus to
[39:13] free his her daughter. Finally, he
[39:16] agrees that for part of the year she
[39:20] will come out of the underworld and that
[39:22] will be spring and summer and then she
[39:24] will descend back into the underworld
[39:26] and that will be winter. Right? So her
[39:29] coming up coincides with the birth of
[39:32] vegetation with the return of life from
[39:34] death. Okay? So the rituals centered the
[39:38] eliscinian mystery is centered on the
[39:40] mystery of life and death itself.
[39:44] Are do we just die and nothing happens
[39:46] or does our death allow for life to come
[39:49] back up? Is there a cycle that we humans
[39:51] are a part of? Right? And so in my
[39:55] uncovering of all the details and I you
[39:57] know I hope you will read it if you do
[39:59] cuz I'm not going to go through
[40:01] everything now. The mysteries were all
[40:04] about creating the feeling in the
[40:06] initiates that you had died. You had
[40:08] literally died. There was probably the
[40:11] ingestion of plant substances that were
[40:14] hallucinogenic. We believe that maybe
[40:17] there were poppies. It could have been
[40:19] something similar to mushrooms or LSD,
[40:22] arrog.
[40:25] But they created this sense that you had
[40:28] literally died and now you were being
[40:30] reborn along with Pphanie and the
[40:33] feeling was so powerful that people like
[40:37] Plato and Socrates and Marcus Aurelius
[40:40] and Cicero people who were high
[40:43] intellectuals who you wouldn't think of
[40:45] who would poo poo that like the
[40:47] anti-ublant people today would go like
[40:49] that they were completely enraptured.
[40:51] They completely felt it for their whole
[40:53] lives. People who went through the
[40:55] mysteries never ever forgot it. It was
[40:58] the most memorable experience in their
[41:00] life. Right? And so what I wanted to
[41:04] impress on people in this is that your
[41:08] idea of ancient religion and gods is
[41:11] completely misconceived. You have no
[41:13] idea what the gods were. They weren't
[41:16] these like little kind of cartoon-like
[41:20] figures out in space who were like
[41:22] humanlike doing all these silly little
[41:24] things. They were forces of nature,
[41:27] right? They were the embodiment of they
[41:30] were not entities. They were these
[41:32] powers, these forces of nature that
[41:34] would wash through you. So when you felt
[41:38] deep love for someone, when you were
[41:41] sexually attracted or you were just in
[41:43] love with another person, Aphrodite had
[41:46] passed through you. Aphrodite wasn't
[41:49] this like figure that you could see. It
[41:52] was just this sensation of overpowering
[41:55] love of like a almost a biological
[41:58] sensation that transcended your own
[42:00] desires on and on and on. Pphanie,
[42:03] Deita, Zeus, all of these were these
[42:06] forces of nature that would come and
[42:08] inhabit and possess you. And the feeling
[42:10] of possession of these natural forces
[42:14] was the divine, was the sacred. It was
[42:16] so powerful that it was not something we
[42:19] can even conceive of today. Our sense of
[42:22] religion is so different, is so I don't
[42:24] even know how to explain it. But pagan
[42:27] religions
[42:29] were were these life forces that that
[42:32] would possess you that would inhabit you
[42:34] that were part of life itself and that
[42:36] took you out of your individual
[42:38] existence.
[42:40] So I want to give wanted to give people
[42:42] a feeling that there is another way to
[42:45] conceive of religion and and the divine
[42:48] and the sacred that has nothing to do
[42:50] with our modern conceptions. M
[42:53] >> and you talk about things from extreme
[42:56] sports to Burning Man sort of being this
[42:58] collective this repressed pagan hunger
[43:01] for collective ecstasy in disguise.
[43:05] >> Um would you say that is a need that is
[43:08] not being fulfilled currently in
[43:10] society?
[43:11] >> Yeah. And um there are all kinds of
[43:14] qualities that I sort of see as a desire
[43:18] for returning to paganism. Um, I mean
[43:22] the word almost has like a cartoonish
[43:24] feel to it if you say that. It conjures
[43:26] up, you know, wearing furs and horns and
[43:28] dancing around, but that's not the
[43:30] connotation I like to give it.
[43:33] >> But yeah, I mean, collective events
[43:37] like the Elucinian mysteries because
[43:40] being in a group and going through the
[43:42] mysteries was what was part of it. The
[43:45] group energy, the feeling that you were
[43:47] all part of this one life force that was
[43:50] being reborn gave it its power.
[43:54] And we're so lonely now. We're so
[43:57] isolated. We're all so cut off from each
[44:00] other
[44:02] that we yearn for some kind of
[44:04] collective experience. That yearn for
[44:06] collective experience that is not just
[44:10] watching a football game. that is
[44:12] something deeper is to me a kind of a
[44:15] hankering for the pagan type experience,
[44:18] right? And so we have these kind of
[44:21] events like Burning Man, like raves,
[44:25] like other concerts and such that kind
[44:28] of have that feeling where you can get
[44:30] that sort of collective energy where
[44:32] everyone is one. If you've ever been in
[44:35] a place where you see people singing
[44:38] together,
[44:40] it can give you that chill. So the other
[44:43] night I was watching a movie um it was a
[44:46] Japanese movie by the Japanese director
[44:48] Ozu in which these old men 12 of them
[44:51] who were all been fought in World War II
[44:54] were remembering the war and they
[44:56] started singing a song a kind of o a
[44:59] soldier song and I got this feeling 12
[45:02] people singing a song in the collective
[45:04] voice it was chilling it was so powerful
[45:08] the sense of like one voice and that's
[45:11] the kind of experience that the collect
[45:12] ive had people singing all together in
[45:15] unison feeling like one is an
[45:18] overpowering experience.
[45:21] I remember
[45:23] when I was in my 20s, I went to
[45:25] Nicaragua like 19 it was there was a war
[45:28] going on. It was like 1982, 1983.
[45:31] And the Pope was visiting Nicaragua,
[45:34] which is a big thing because Nicaragua
[45:36] back then was kind of this revolution.
[45:38] It was socialist, communist, whatever
[45:40] you want to call it. And the pope was
[45:42] kind of angry at this, but it was a but
[45:44] it's a very Catholic country. anywhere.
[45:47] I was in this enormous square in
[45:49] Managua, Nicaragua, which had been
[45:51] devastated by an earthquake. So there
[45:53] was no, it was just this huge square
[45:55] filled with almost everybody in
[45:57] Nicaragua. And there was the pope.
[46:00] I felt an experience of all these people
[46:03] there and this kind of worshiping sense
[46:06] that I'll never forget. It was like it
[46:09] was like kind of like the divine. It was
[46:10] like sacred. It was so weird and
[46:12] powerful. That's what we're hankering
[46:14] for. that kind of collective experience
[46:18] and that to me is a hunger for the kind
[46:21] of pagan experience that I'm describing.
[46:24] I
[46:25] >> think we certainly yearn for that state
[46:28] and that feeling of in a the most
[46:32] individualistic culture that sense for
[46:34] like collective remembrance. And I think
[46:37] that especially as the artificial worlds
[46:40] tend to, you know, take the stage, the
[46:44] the yearning for those in-person kind of
[46:46] immersive experiences are going to
[46:48] continue to to be demanded and really
[46:51] needed as their sustenance for for
[46:53] individuals. Um, another one you look
[46:56] back on and we can have this nostalgia
[46:58] in particular with childhood which you
[47:01] write about in the fourth chapter. Um,
[47:04] and uh, what do you think we get wrong
[47:06] about how we look back with nostalgia
[47:09] about our childhood years almost with a
[47:11] sense of like superiority?
[47:14] >> Well, we kind of um, smile when we think
[47:17] of children. We look at them. We smile
[47:20] how cute they are. We think of our own
[47:22] childhood, how sweet and nice it was,
[47:24] and oh, would be nice to have, you know,
[47:27] to be back there. and we look at
[47:29] photographs and we talk with our family
[47:32] members and we reminisce and we kind of
[47:34] turn childhood into what it isn't. We
[47:37] look at it through our adult lens,
[47:39] right?
[47:40] Childhood was not this sweet little
[47:42] innocent wondrous little time of life.
[47:45] It was this awakening to the world as it
[47:48] actually is. Right? You're seeing the
[47:52] world for the first time. You're
[47:54] becoming conscious for the first time.
[47:57] Right? When you're 2, 3 years old. Right
[47:59] now, we don't know when children start
[48:02] to become truly self-aware. Some people
[48:05] think it's 1 2 3 years old, but anyway,
[48:07] there's a moment when you start becoming
[48:08] self-aware and you're looking at the
[48:10] world and you're seeing things and
[48:12] you're small and you're helpless and
[48:14] everything seems huge and wondrous and
[48:17] weird. I remember I was four years old.
[48:19] One of my earliest memories is staring
[48:21] at this red glass that had these ridges
[48:24] in it and the and the color and I was
[48:26] just like, "Wow, that is so beautiful,
[48:28] right?" And the ice in it and the water
[48:31] you were your senses were so alive. Your
[48:34] brain was so fluid and plastic and you
[48:37] were and all these thoughts are coming
[48:39] to your your brain is so plastic and is
[48:41] expanding that everything is is is just
[48:45] eyeoping, right? You're in awe of
[48:47] everything. Of course, there are painful
[48:50] moments of childhood because you're weak
[48:52] and you're vulnerable and you're
[48:54] dependent on others. So mixed with this
[48:57] kind of excitement is a little bit of
[48:59] terror and fear and vulnerability. But
[49:02] the sublime involves a bit of terror and
[49:05] vulnerability.
[49:07] And just to go back briefly to the
[49:09] cosmic sublime, I try and say
[49:12] that why children are so obsessed with
[49:14] the night sky because I think if you
[49:16] went back in your own childhood, you
[49:18] would remember that looking up at the
[49:20] sky particularly at night was a weird
[49:24] experience like the sky is infinite.
[49:26] It's because you were so small and you
[49:30] were looking at something that expanded
[49:31] into in infinitely that it caused you to
[49:35] like have this feeling of fear and
[49:37] excitement about the infinite, right?
[49:40] And so childhood is not this sweet
[49:43] little innocent kind of nostalgic thing.
[49:45] Oh, we played games. Oh, how sweet it
[49:47] was. It was this awakening to this
[49:49] world, to seeing things as they are. Our
[49:53] experience of time was different.
[49:56] We live in what I call dead time. And
[50:00] dead time is abstract time. It's minutes
[50:03] passing. In an hour, I have to get this
[50:05] done. In two hours, I have to get that
[50:07] done. By the end of the day, we think in
[50:10] these abstract terms, blocks of time.
[50:12] Time is outside of us. It's like dead.
[50:15] When you're a child, time flows as
[50:18] you're inside of it. It's like a river
[50:20] that you're inside of.
[50:22] >> And the feeling of the passage of time
[50:24] is sensual.
[50:25] So
[50:27] your senses are so much more alive. And
[50:30] what happens is when you're in your 20,
[50:32] when as you get older,
[50:35] you become kind of bored and
[50:37] dissatisfied with life. Life seems a
[50:39] little bit empty. Life seems a little
[50:42] bit flat. You don't know why you're
[50:44] unhappy. You don't know why you want
[50:47] addictions, why you want to grab for
[50:48] things. But I'm saying in the back of
[50:51] your mind unconsciously,
[50:53] you can remember a time in your own life
[50:55] when you were three or four when your
[50:57] experience of life was different. That
[51:00] is what you miss. That is what you miss.
[51:03] Not being young, not having your life
[51:05] all over again. But you miss that kind
[51:07] of openness to experience. And that to
[51:10] me is the childhood sublime.
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[52:20] Back to the show.
[52:23] I think many people can relate to this
[52:28] feeling like their raw experience of
[52:30] life has been swapped out for a
[52:33] narration of it. And we see children
[52:36] have this unmediated experience, a
[52:38] bottomup raw experience of what's
[52:40] happening in the world. And you share um
[52:44] how we can return back to this sort of
[52:48] second innocence and revoke that child
[52:52] childlike sense of discovering the
[52:54] world. And I know you had moments
[52:56] throughout your stroke in particular and
[52:58] of course in the process of writing your
[53:00] book where you you had that um and I
[53:05] love the the example you gave of staring
[53:08] at something until the word of it
[53:09] dissolves,
[53:10] >> you know,
[53:12] >> uh like looking at a tree until the word
[53:14] tree dissolves. Um,
[53:17] >> so if you could share a little bit more
[53:18] about how
[53:20] to return back to that sense of
[53:24] experiencing life without the continual
[53:26] narration and the voice in your head
[53:27] dictating what something is, thinking
[53:30] you know it.
[53:32] Well, um, I illustrate each of the
[53:34] chapters illustrated with a particular
[53:36] story that's like the archetype. And the
[53:38] story I use is of this Russian writer
[53:41] named Nabokov, Vladimir Nabokov, who
[53:43] most famous for writing the novel
[53:45] Lolita, but he wrote many other
[53:46] wonderful things.
[53:49] And the story, the reason I chose
[53:50] Nabokov is he had this wondrous
[53:54] childhood, incredibly enchanted. He ca
[53:57] he lived on he his family was relatively
[53:59] wealthy and they lived out in the
[54:00] country and everything was magical. And
[54:04] then at the age of 18 or 19, the Russian
[54:06] revolution breaks out. His fa his his
[54:09] father who was sort of wealthy even
[54:10] though he was a liberal was forced into
[54:13] exile. They had parts of their family
[54:15] were killed. They had to immigrate to
[54:17] Europe. They went to Berlin and then the
[54:20] Nazis came and Nabacov's wife was
[54:23] Jewish. They had to flee Germany. He had
[54:25] to flee to New York. His mother died.
[54:28] His brother was killed in a
[54:29] concentration camp. His father was
[54:31] murdered. He lost his entire family. He
[54:35] could never ever return to Russia
[54:36] because now it was under Stalin. So here
[54:39] he lived in this exile. He had no
[54:42] photographs. He had no memorabilia.
[54:45] But he longed for his childhood so
[54:47] deeply. And the pain of that was
[54:49] unbearable. So he he experimented as a
[54:53] writer. He was going to recreate his
[54:55] childhood not as something as you say
[54:58] narrated as if it's like an series of
[55:00] events but as if it's an experience that
[55:03] he can reexperience by writing about it.
[55:07] And so using that as a model I try
[55:10] getting you to to try something similar
[55:13] with your own life. And so it's not a
[55:16] question of revisiting the events of
[55:19] your childhood. It's a question of
[55:21] revisiting the experience of your
[55:24] childhood.
[55:25] So I mentioned for instance that time
[55:29] was experienced differently in childhood
[55:32] and I have an exercise towards the end
[55:34] of the chapter of trying to experience
[55:37] time differently as if it's a flow as if
[55:40] you're entering a river and it's inside
[55:42] of you. Now I know that concept might be
[55:45] alien to the listener but I I meditate
[55:49] every morning and I go through this
[55:52] exercise myself often in the morning
[55:55] where I feel like t like I'm not
[55:59] thinking about minutes or whatever I'm
[56:02] actually inside the moment itself I'm
[56:04] inside time and it's this flow and it's
[56:08] a physical sensation. Time should be a
[56:10] physical sensation in your body, not a
[56:13] thought, not something abstract from the
[56:15] outside. It's flowing inside of you.
[56:17] Each moment passing,
[56:20] we are all alive at the same time. I
[56:23] know that sounds like an obvious thing,
[56:26] but just think of it. We are all alive
[56:28] at the same time. We're all conscious of
[56:30] it. Some of us are are passing out of it
[56:32] and are dying, but we are alive at that
[56:34] moment. And that moment is time inside
[56:37] of us. It's like a river that you're in
[56:39] that you're inside. You're not looking
[56:41] at it from the shore.
[56:43] Language, you mention I have a story of
[56:46] of a woman who revisited her childhood
[56:49] because language fell out.
[56:52] >> Is it Aaron Reich?
[56:53] >> Yes. Barbara Aaron Reich. um she had
[56:56] this kind of weird experience where um
[56:59] she's like 18 or 19 and she's in some
[57:02] city in California, some town and
[57:05] suddenly everything is bright and in and
[57:07] intense and she no longer can hear the
[57:11] word tree. And so when she sees this
[57:14] tree, it's like this sort of magnificent
[57:18] thing sprouting out of the earth and
[57:20] trying to reach up into the sky and it
[57:23] has a presence to it and it has like
[57:26] life itself inside of it, right? And for
[57:30] a moment she feels like there's no
[57:32] separation between me and the tree
[57:34] because the word drops out.
[57:37] When you walk through your daily life
[57:39] and you just have the word tree, you
[57:41] never look at them. We never think about
[57:42] them. You never see how weird it is to
[57:46] have plant life and tree life on this
[57:48] earth and what it represents. So when
[57:51] words drop out, you have a different
[57:53] form of consciousness. Now it's hard to
[57:57] because we're so verbal, it's hard to
[57:59] completely do that. But you can walk
[58:01] around and you can start looking at
[58:03] things as if there were no words for
[58:06] them. So you look at birds in the sky,
[58:09] there's no word for bird. There's just
[58:11] these strange things flitting about in
[58:13] the sky that somehow took to flight. How
[58:16] does that happen? They're very strange.
[58:18] They're very interesting looking.
[58:20] They're alive like me. I am right now.
[58:23] So when words drop out, your experience
[58:26] returns somewhat to that feeling of
[58:29] childhood, right? And so your experience
[58:32] of time, your experience of senses, your
[58:34] experience of motion.
[58:37] When you're a child and you travel in a
[58:39] car or a plane or a train, your body
[58:43] feels like it's a part of it. You're
[58:44] moving with it and your sense of motion
[58:48] is much different than now where we fly.
[58:50] We don't even think about it, right?
[58:52] We're just, oh, we're so in uh we're so
[58:55] in our little computers. You look at
[58:56] people on a plane. Who looks outside the
[58:58] window who's feeling that miraculous
[59:01] sense that you're flying in the
[59:03] air? You know, if it's all like this,
[59:06] that's what a child does. That's a
[59:07] child's like, "Jesus Christ, I'm flying.
[59:10] How insane." So, these are things that
[59:12] you go back to. Not nostalgia, not cute
[59:15] little memories, but the experience of
[59:17] childhood itself.
[59:19] >> I think uh
[59:22] despair is a doorway into that space.
[59:25] And you talk about Goodall um her what
[59:28] you know drove her to be with the chimps
[59:29] in the rainforest and uh your own
[59:32] example as well. Um how is that a unique
[59:36] opportunity to revisit the childlike
[59:39] sense available to us?
[59:41] >> Well,
[59:42] so when you're a child, you're very
[59:45] vulnerable
[59:47] >> and you're weak and you're a very
[59:49] sensitive and emotional. So you
[59:51] experience a lot of pain, right? you you
[59:55] don't have the the the distance from
[59:57] your own emotions to kind of analyze
[59:59] them. And so you're in the moment and
[1:00:01] you feel deeply if a parent isn't paying
[1:00:03] you attention or that sense of
[1:00:05] abandonment.
[1:00:07] When we become adults, we become
[1:00:10] invulnerable.
[1:00:12] We have so many defenses, right, that
[1:00:14] just enclose us in our bodies, right?
[1:00:17] The great psychiatrist Phil Helm Reich
[1:00:20] said it's like body armor that we wear
[1:00:22] in our chest, right? Okay, you feel so
[1:00:25] closed. But in those moments of despair
[1:00:29] for Jane Goodall, it happened with her
[1:00:31] husband that she loved deeply living
[1:00:33] with him as he died of cancer and how
[1:00:35] horrific it was and how her life now
[1:00:38] became just like this business managing
[1:00:41] her her foundation. She was losing it
[1:00:44] contact with her childhood, right? And
[1:00:47] in those moments of despair and
[1:00:51] unhappiness and loneliness, you're
[1:00:53] actually opening up. You're actually
[1:00:56] vulnerable. Your defenses are down and
[1:00:59] you can't you have uncontrollable
[1:01:00] emotions.
[1:01:02] It's similar to childhood, right? And so
[1:01:06] in those moments is when you can almost
[1:01:09] best feel what it was like when you were
[1:01:10] a child.
[1:01:13] I tell the story in that chapter of
[1:01:15] Buddha himself, Gotama of whatever the
[1:01:18] rest of his name is.
[1:01:21] >> Okay.
[1:01:22] >> He
[1:01:24] left his wealthy family to go wander in
[1:01:26] the forest to find out the purpose of
[1:01:28] his life.
[1:01:29] >> He tried all these aesthetic practices
[1:01:32] just like totally like no food and
[1:01:35] eating, drinking his own urine and
[1:01:37] everything and fasting got him no closer
[1:01:40] to enlightenment. For six years he sat
[1:01:42] and he tried to figure it out and he was
[1:01:45] in deep, deep, deep despair. He was
[1:01:48] almost like to give up. He was in
[1:01:50] incredible state of depression.
[1:01:53] He's sitting out underneath a tree one
[1:01:55] day and a memory in that state of
[1:01:59] despair.
[1:02:00] A memory comes back to him from his
[1:02:02] childhood of seeing the of seeing the
[1:02:06] the grass being cut for um for
[1:02:10] harvesting time and all the millions of
[1:02:13] insects that are being butchered in this
[1:02:16] harvest of the cutting of the
[1:02:18] vegetation. And as a child he's like,
[1:02:20] "Oh my god, all these creatures are
[1:02:22] dying. I feel horrible."
[1:02:24] But at the same time, the sky is out
[1:02:26] there. It's beautiful. This is just life
[1:02:28] itself.
[1:02:30] In his moment of despair, he returns to
[1:02:32] that childhood memory and he feels
[1:02:34] enlightened. It's this moment of
[1:02:36] enlightenment.
[1:02:38] So that feeling of despair, of
[1:02:40] vulnerability and of oh god, I'm so
[1:02:43] lost. What was happened to me is when
[1:02:46] you can be closer to actually
[1:02:48] experiencing the sublime that you had in
[1:02:50] childhood because you are opening up and
[1:02:52] you are vulnerable in those moments.
[1:02:55] I love that reframing of vulnerability
[1:02:58] as an actual doorway to access more of
[1:03:00] the sublime. And one exercise or
[1:03:03] recommendation you give is to seek out
[1:03:06] experiences where you yourself feel
[1:03:08] exposed, humiliated, you know,
[1:03:10] ridiculous and uh to get out of yourself
[1:03:15] and outside of the over seriousness of
[1:03:17] taking, you know, us so seriously as an
[1:03:19] individual. Um, I did improv recently.
[1:03:22] Like that was a good example for me of,
[1:03:23] you know, just trying something new and
[1:03:26] >> and, uh, you know, uh, being able to
[1:03:28] just make fun of yourself is so
[1:03:30] liberating.
[1:03:31] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:03:32] >> When was the last time you did something
[1:03:33] like that?
[1:03:35] >> Well, I'm always laughing at myself
[1:03:37] because I find myself rather ridiculous,
[1:03:40] but [laughter] um, I don't know. Uh my
[1:03:44] wife and I back 30 years ago, we did
[1:03:47] theater in Los Angeles and I wrote these
[1:03:50] plays that were really kind of making
[1:03:52] fun of myself and I acted in them. So
[1:03:55] that was my equivalent of improv,
[1:03:58] >> but I haven't had that so recently. I I
[1:04:00] I really probably should do that. Maybe
[1:04:02] I should consider it.
[1:04:03] >> That sounds like fun.
[1:04:04] >> Let's go. Okay,
[1:04:05] >> I'll take you to improv.
[1:04:07] >> Okay, [laughter] but I have to get up
[1:04:08] there and I have to improvise.
[1:04:11] >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember I took an
[1:04:13] acting class uh when I was about to
[1:04:15] start my first book came out and I had
[1:04:17] to go in front of media. So, I thought
[1:04:19] I'd take acting classes and he it was
[1:04:22] all about improv and I was terrible at
[1:04:25] it. So, I don't know if I want to do
[1:04:26] this. I might let [laughter]
[1:04:29] >> So I think this goes nicely into the
[1:04:31] fifth one, the naked brain,
[1:04:33] >> because one thing that helps me at least
[1:04:36] take my life less seriously and
[1:04:38] personally and be able to like laugh at
[1:04:40] myself and things like that
[1:04:42] >> is to realize how much of a perceptual
[1:04:44] box that we are constantly looking
[1:04:47] through. And you referred to our brains
[1:04:49] as these passive passengers. So, I'd
[1:04:52] love for you to share a bit more about
[1:04:54] how often we take reality as though it
[1:04:58] is the way it appears, but in truth, it
[1:05:00] is a behavioral adaptive system um for
[1:05:04] us to be able to navigate. And thank God
[1:05:05] it's so useful, but it is not the way
[1:05:08] reality is.
[1:05:11] >> Well, um I tell a story in there that
[1:05:14] illustrates it of a woman, Jill Bolty
[1:05:16] Taylor. You may have heard her.
[1:05:17] >> She's coming on in a bit. Yeah. On the
[1:05:19] show.
[1:05:19] >> Oh, really?
[1:05:20] >> Yeah.
[1:05:20] >> Oh, please say hello to her. I know her.
[1:05:22] We've we've conversed on the phone
[1:05:23] several times.
[1:05:25] >> Yeah, that's exciting. She's an amazing
[1:05:26] woman.
[1:05:28] >> Anyway, um she suffered a stroke, but
[1:05:31] she was a neuroscientist who was was a
[1:05:34] very serious scientist who studied the
[1:05:36] human brain in depth. Her specialty was
[1:05:39] schizophrenia and the chemical processes
[1:05:41] in the brain that perhaps are causing
[1:05:43] schizophrenia.
[1:05:45] And one day she's having a stroke, a
[1:05:48] hemorrhagic stroke. I don't want to
[1:05:49] spoil the story cuz she's going to be on
[1:05:51] your show, but blood blood is flowing
[1:05:54] through her brain and it's shutting down
[1:05:55] one by one the different functionings of
[1:05:58] the brain. And as it's occurring, she
[1:06:00] doesn't know what it is. She doesn't
[1:06:02] know that it's a stroke. Although at
[1:06:05] some point she realizes it, but she
[1:06:07] later understands that she is
[1:06:09] experiencing the world before the brain
[1:06:12] filters and constructs what we take for
[1:06:16] reality. And so I use that story to
[1:06:19] illustrate the idea that you're not
[1:06:22] aware. You're walking around. You're not
[1:06:23] aware that your brain is continually
[1:06:26] filtering all of your perceptions and
[1:06:28] pruning what you see, what you hear,
[1:06:30] what you think. Because the brain is
[1:06:33] trying to make it easier for you to
[1:06:35] navigate this world. It's like I I don't
[1:06:38] mean to it's not like the brain is
[1:06:40] consciously doing that, but the brain is
[1:06:43] designed as a mechanism to help you
[1:06:44] survive.
[1:06:46] And we survive in environments that are
[1:06:48] very different from animals a couple
[1:06:51] millions of years ago, right? And so the
[1:06:53] brain is doing all of these things to
[1:06:56] help you in your day-to-day life to help
[1:06:57] you navigate a very complicated world.
[1:07:00] It's pruning down all the things that
[1:07:02] are all the sensory data because if you
[1:07:06] were aware like a baby is of everything
[1:07:08] going on around you, you'd be
[1:07:10] overwhelmed. You wouldn't be able to
[1:07:12] function, right? It's too much. So it's
[1:07:14] filtering. It's pruning it down to the
[1:07:17] essentials that'll help you to survive.
[1:07:20] It creates a self, an ego that gives you
[1:07:24] the sense of an order, a consistency,
[1:07:28] memories that you can recall and it will
[1:07:31] help you learn from experience. But that
[1:07:34] self is created out of nothing. There
[1:07:35] was originally no self. It creates that,
[1:07:38] right? It creates a feeling of time. It
[1:07:42] creates a feeling of you have a separate
[1:07:44] body so that you can navigate spaces and
[1:07:47] not feel like God I'm I'm part of that
[1:07:50] wood over there and I'm going to hit it
[1:07:52] so you're separate from it so you can
[1:07:54] walk around. But these are all
[1:07:57] constructions. They are not reality. The
[1:08:00] reality is
[1:08:02] your brain is just filtering all of this
[1:08:04] data. The world looks much differently
[1:08:07] when it's not filtering. It's almost
[1:08:09] like pixels. It's almost like all of
[1:08:11] this information out there that's really
[1:08:13] weird and strange and wondrous, it's
[1:08:15] also creating a sense of of a self
[1:08:18] separate from the world. But in fact,
[1:08:20] you don't you're not separate from the
[1:08:22] world. All of your your internal your
[1:08:25] your consciousness, your everything that
[1:08:27] makes you alive is part of everything
[1:08:28] else that is around your environment.
[1:08:31] You're not a separate. You don't have a
[1:08:33] self. You don't have an ego. It's
[1:08:35] creating all of this. It's creating your
[1:08:38] reality. It's creating what you see,
[1:08:40] what you think, so that life is not
[1:08:43] overwhelming, so that you can survive.
[1:08:47] What would it be like if you didn't have
[1:08:48] these filtering mechanisms?
[1:08:52] I recommend you read a book called The
[1:08:53] Doors of Perception by Aldos Huxley.
[1:08:56] >> And Aldos Huxley has this idea of the
[1:08:58] small mind and the big mind, mind at
[1:09:01] large. The small mind is what this brain
[1:09:04] is creating for you. The mind at large
[1:09:06] is experiencing is the doors of
[1:09:09] perception opening to everything around
[1:09:11] you. It can open up too much and you
[1:09:14] would go insane because there's there's
[1:09:16] too much happening in this world. And if
[1:09:18] you've ever been on a drug trip like I
[1:09:20] used to do, it can be overwhelming. You
[1:09:24] can almost go too far and it's it's
[1:09:26] excessive.
[1:09:27] But those doors of perception are
[1:09:29] opening and you're seeing more of the
[1:09:30] world. you're perceiving more of it. And
[1:09:33] it it's a wondrous feeling. It's
[1:09:36] people are so defensive and aggressive
[1:09:39] and angry, right? Because their world is
[1:09:42] so closed and limited. But when this
[1:09:45] opens up, you lose all of those
[1:09:47] defensiveness and the world is you feel
[1:09:50] like you're part of the world itself.
[1:09:52] There's no se nothing separating you
[1:09:54] from your environment. And so people
[1:09:56] like Aldos Huxley
[1:09:59] believed that if we could see through
[1:10:02] our own brains and see through the
[1:10:04] constructions and open ourselves up, it
[1:10:07] would solve all of humanity's problems.
[1:10:10] And so I have exercises in there to sort
[1:10:14] of lead you through what I call pure
[1:10:17] perception, pure consciousness without
[1:10:19] all the filtering mechanisms,
[1:10:22] pure thinking where you're not, it's not
[1:10:25] like programmed from the outside, pure
[1:10:28] emotion. You don't realize, but your
[1:10:31] emotions are simply chemicals in your
[1:10:33] body, right? chemicals that are h
[1:10:35] hormones that are racing through your
[1:10:37] body that are creating moods. Your brain
[1:10:41] goes, "Okay, Robert, that mood is
[1:10:44] anger." You're putting a label on it.
[1:10:46] But in fact, it's not anger. It's just
[1:10:48] this kind of roing sensation inside of
[1:10:51] you. Then you think about anger and it
[1:10:53] turns into this obsessive thought. Pure
[1:10:55] emotion are just chemicals constantly
[1:10:58] roing through you. If you just feel
[1:11:00] those chemicals, then you're not going
[1:11:01] to hang on to these particular emotions
[1:11:04] that your mind is making you think
[1:11:06] about. It's a very freeing and opening
[1:11:09] experience. So, I'm taking you through
[1:11:11] these ways of kind of having pure
[1:11:13] consciousness without all of these
[1:11:15] filters going on.
[1:11:17] >> I too love Huxley and his
[1:11:21] >> framework around the like reducing
[1:11:23] valve.
[1:11:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
[1:11:25] >> The sheer amount of overwhelming stimuli
[1:11:27] that is available to us. Um, which thank
[1:11:30] god you know we've had um some great
[1:11:34] people on like Neil Seth who I know you
[1:11:36] write about and Donald Hoffman and
[1:11:38] >> wow
[1:11:39] >> um lots of people in the consciousness
[1:11:40] research space and
[1:11:43] >> there's been many useful frameworks one
[1:11:45] is like the display of a computer screen
[1:11:49] you know like the user face of a
[1:11:51] computer display is very useful for
[1:11:53] navigating it but it is not at all
[1:11:56] representative of what's actually in the
[1:11:58] computer,
[1:11:59] >> you know, like
[1:12:00] >> the electricity that's running through
[1:12:02] different gates in the computer that's
[1:12:04] actually happening anytime you're typing
[1:12:05] something or sending an email.
[1:12:07] >> Um,
[1:12:09] it's Yeah, it's kind of like an analogy
[1:12:12] for the way that we perceive reality and
[1:12:14] the way that this display of experience
[1:12:16] comes to us through our
[1:12:18] >> just seeing the screen,
[1:12:19] >> right? Our five sensory experience is
[1:12:20] our screen. It's our interface. Yeah.
[1:12:23] >> Um but it's not at all exhaustive of of
[1:12:26] what's happening on an energetic level.
[1:12:29] Um we're like perceiving such a small
[1:12:33] fraction on the electromagnetic
[1:12:34] spectrum.
[1:12:35] >> Exactly.
[1:12:36] >> And it's uh it I think it definitely for
[1:12:39] me invites humility. Um and something
[1:12:43] that you write about uh Uspensky and
[1:12:45] Gurf.
[1:12:46] >> Yes. uh is is really I think powerful
[1:12:49] here because
[1:12:50] >> he refers to it as though we are in this
[1:12:52] like hypnotic sleep state walking
[1:12:54] through our life and we are so largely
[1:12:56] missing the power of our attention.
[1:12:59] >> Yeah.
[1:12:59] >> And we know that you know we live in a
[1:13:02] time where attention is being fought
[1:13:03] for. It's a commodity.
[1:13:04] >> Yeah.
[1:13:05] >> And uh I'm curious what you what your
[1:13:07] thoughts are are around um Gurf and um
[1:13:12] the the reflections on using our
[1:13:15] attention to actually be able to glean
[1:13:17] deeper into reality itself.
[1:13:19] >> Well, Gerchef is is a absolutely
[1:13:21] fascinating figure. He he uh traveled
[1:13:24] throughout the far east and the Middle
[1:13:26] East trying to learn all the secrets of
[1:13:29] various esoteric religions and cults and
[1:13:33] putting it all together into some sort
[1:13:35] of modern philosophy that would allow
[1:13:38] for transcendent experiences.
[1:13:41] And one thing that he discovered through
[1:13:43] all of these different practices was the
[1:13:46] power of attention and focus.
[1:13:49] And he says it's like this. It really is
[1:13:52] what makes us human. So an animal and I
[1:13:56] believe me I love animals and we're
[1:13:58] going to get to that very soon.
[1:14:00] >> Their their attention is is just focused
[1:14:03] here on what's immediately in front of
[1:14:05] them. Right? Okay. Maybe they they look
[1:14:07] a little bit in the distance or if
[1:14:08] you're a bird, it's a little wider, but
[1:14:12] they can't focus on things that are
[1:14:14] invisible like the future or the past or
[1:14:18] or things that are not for their senses,
[1:14:20] right? And so they they can only focus
[1:14:24] on what's immediately in front of them.
[1:14:25] But our attention is immense. We can
[1:14:28] focus on almost anything. And when we
[1:14:31] focus our attention deeply on something,
[1:14:34] these kind of miraculous things can
[1:14:36] happen. So he has this idea, he calls it
[1:14:39] self-remembering.
[1:14:41] So if you're having normally you you go
[1:14:45] through life and you have all these
[1:14:47] series of events and experiences and
[1:14:49] you're there in the moment, but then
[1:14:51] they pass and maybe 3 years from now you
[1:14:55] remember absolutely nothing of that
[1:14:57] particular day. If you thought about it,
[1:14:59] what you remember about the past is this
[1:15:02] tiny little spectrum of things that
[1:15:05] stood out. But most of the time you
[1:15:08] remember nothing, right? Why? Because
[1:15:11] you're in a state of sleep. You're in a
[1:15:13] state of hypnosis. You're walking
[1:15:15] through the streets, you're experiencing
[1:15:17] things, but they're not deeply
[1:15:19] registering to you. You're not paying
[1:15:21] attention. They're not you're not
[1:15:23] ingesting them like food. They're not a
[1:15:25] part of you. So, we have this thing
[1:15:27] called self-remembering where you're
[1:15:29] walking around and you're looking at
[1:15:31] things as almost as if you're
[1:15:33] remembering it later and so you're
[1:15:36] attending to them on this deeper deeper
[1:15:38] level so that you will so that you will
[1:15:40] have the this will actually mean
[1:15:42] something to you and it'll have
[1:15:44] intensity and depth not just the surface
[1:15:47] skimming through life. You will feel
[1:15:49] awake. You will feel every moment that
[1:15:52] you're awake and alive, right? And so
[1:15:56] Uspuspensky who was this sort of uh
[1:15:58] pupil of his was going through was was
[1:16:02] being taught by him and he decided to
[1:16:04] use this experiment of self-remembering.
[1:16:09] And he started just in the beginning of
[1:16:11] looking at a flower in a vase and going
[1:16:14] I'm remembering this. I'm remembering
[1:16:16] this. I'm seeing this. I'm alive. I'm
[1:16:18] I'm I'm I'm experiencing it here in the
[1:16:20] moment. He could only hold on to it for
[1:16:22] a few seconds because all the
[1:16:24] distracting thoughts. But then when he
[1:16:26] held on to it for like a minute,
[1:16:28] suddenly that flower like sparked to
[1:16:30] life. It was like inside of him. There
[1:16:32] was an intensity to it. It was a part of
[1:16:35] him. It suddenly realized, "Wow, this is
[1:16:38] a powerful powerful experiment I can go
[1:16:41] through." He realized the power in it
[1:16:44] that uh Gerf had experienced with all of
[1:16:46] these mystics. Now we can do it for
[1:16:48] three minutes. Now we can do it for 5
[1:16:50] minutes. Suddenly everything is like
[1:16:52] it's like taking a peyote or something.
[1:16:54] It's magical. He he takes it outside and
[1:16:57] he's walking around. He's going, "I'm
[1:16:58] remembering. I'm remembering. I'm living
[1:17:00] this. I'm I'm experiencing it." And
[1:17:02] suddenly he's having all of these
[1:17:05] visions. The houses that he's looking at
[1:17:07] are like talking to him. They're alive.
[1:17:10] You might think it's irrational, but
[1:17:11] he's not experiencing irrational. He's
[1:17:14] experienced it as if I'm waking up to my
[1:17:16] own experience. The world is now alive
[1:17:19] to me instead of sleepwalking through
[1:17:20] it. And then suddenly
[1:17:24] he finds himself in a tobacco shop like
[1:17:28] on the other side of town and he goes,
[1:17:29] "What happened? I was experiment. I was
[1:17:32] seeing all these things." Then he
[1:17:33] realized for about a half hour he fell
[1:17:36] back into a state of slumber and he ends
[1:17:38] up in a tobacco shop almost mechanically
[1:17:41] looking for cigarettes. He forgot the
[1:17:44] experiment and he returned to the state
[1:17:46] of sleepwalking. And now he could see
[1:17:48] the contrast between the normal
[1:17:51] experience of life where you're not
[1:17:53] aware of anything. You're just
[1:17:54] mechanically going through it as
[1:17:56] literally sleep and contrasting it to
[1:18:00] this different experience of life. And
[1:18:02] so I I've tried it myself, the
[1:18:05] experiment, and and it's not easy
[1:18:07] because you're constantly being
[1:18:09] distracted. But I swear to you, if you
[1:18:12] can go through it for a few minutes and
[1:18:13] just do like that flower experiment, it
[1:18:16] has and and read the chapter until I'll
[1:18:18] sort of tell you how to do it. It is
[1:18:20] incredibly powerful and it shows once
[1:18:23] you experience you see the difference
[1:18:25] between your daily life and how asleep
[1:18:28] you are and what that there's a
[1:18:30] potential for a different kind of
[1:18:31] experience.
[1:18:34] >> Yeah, I know Spency gives an example of
[1:18:36] when the attention got so concentrated
[1:18:41] that he felt he could hear the inner
[1:18:43] thoughts of Guru Jeff. And you know this
[1:18:47] is something the mystical and
[1:18:48] contemplative traditions have written
[1:18:50] great lengths around and the eight limbs
[1:18:52] of yoga are centered around like first
[1:18:54] withdrawing the senses with pratia and
[1:18:56] then developing concentration with
[1:18:58] practices
[1:18:59] >> like uh tratika which is like staring at
[1:19:01] a candle flame for 15 minutes
[1:19:04] >> and it's a it's something that I've
[1:19:09] personally practiced a good bit around
[1:19:13] because I've I've contemplated how
[1:19:17] like the dial of consciousness from
[1:19:19] being asleep, which is not
[1:19:23] metaphorically, I feel like it actually
[1:19:25] is a sort of dream state.
[1:19:27] >> Yeah.
[1:19:27] >> Um to then paying attention deeper, you
[1:19:30] start to glean insights that you
[1:19:32] otherwise like didn't occur to you about
[1:19:34] somebody that you're paying attention to
[1:19:36] or a flower or a candle flame. Um, and
[1:19:40] I just think of how much suffering comes
[1:19:43] relationally, especially because we're
[1:19:44] living in these abstractions of who
[1:19:46] somebody is and the memory of who
[1:19:48] they've been for us as opposed to being
[1:19:49] attentive to who they are in this
[1:19:51] moment.
[1:19:52] >> And um, yeah, I I found that bit on on
[1:19:55] attention really really powerful cuz I
[1:19:57] think we are suffering
[1:20:00] um like not having concentrated minds.
[1:20:02] we we we struggle to concentrate on
[1:20:05] something for reading a single page of a
[1:20:08] book let alone a conversation. Um
[1:20:11] >> yeah uh well I I part of my meditation
[1:20:15] there's this part of Zen practice called
[1:20:17] shikantaza
[1:20:19] >> which is you try and go through the full
[1:20:22] time period which for me is 40 minutes
[1:20:24] without a single thought crossing your
[1:20:27] mind right and it's it's impossible
[1:20:30] but you have you have a way of relating
[1:20:33] to your thoughts as if they are just
[1:20:36] secretions of the brain and you don't
[1:20:39] pay it you You let them come to you and
[1:20:40] you just let them wash by and then
[1:20:42] you're not thinking cuz they're just
[1:20:44] these things occurring and they just go
[1:20:46] away. So you can go through the full 30
[1:20:49] 40 minutes like that. And I tell you it
[1:20:53] it is an it is a wondrous feeling when
[1:20:55] you get through it. It's like you have a
[1:20:58] different kind of energy and a different
[1:20:59] kind of consciousness and you're only
[1:21:02] feeling the potential of it. But if you
[1:21:04] went around, that's what enlightenment
[1:21:07] is like and that's what yogis and other
[1:21:09] people who are gone deep into this. If
[1:21:12] you walked around life with that kind of
[1:21:15] focus, with that kind of no thought,
[1:21:18] mujo in in Zen, no mind,
[1:21:21] >> it it would be an awesome experience.
[1:21:24] You would realize that there is a
[1:21:25] different form of consciousness you can
[1:21:27] have.
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[1:22:28] It's uh very exciting for me to explore.
[1:22:30] And speaking of different types of
[1:22:32] consciousness that one could have,
[1:22:34] there's this whole world of interspecies
[1:22:37] sublime and and animal consciousness
[1:22:40] which again gives us insight into this
[1:22:42] realm that hey your sensory system as a
[1:22:45] human being as a homo sapien is great
[1:22:48] and it's just one lens into reality.
[1:22:50] There are many different lenses into
[1:22:52] reality. None are objectively true. Um,
[1:22:56] and so I would love for you to set the
[1:22:58] framework for the inter species and
[1:23:00] yeah, what what came up as you started
[1:23:02] to dig deeper into the animal world.
[1:23:03] >> Well, um, I'm I have a like pagans, I
[1:23:06] have a a when I said the pagan chapter,
[1:23:09] I have a deep deep relationship to
[1:23:11] animals. They they're a huge part of my
[1:23:13] life. I've always had pets and I'm
[1:23:15] obsessed with animal consciousness, with
[1:23:17] animal existence.
[1:23:19] I don't know, maybe I prefer animals to
[1:23:21] humans some days, but anyway, I so
[1:23:23] >> I think that we can all relate to that a
[1:23:25] bit. [laughter]
[1:23:27] >> Um, so this chapter meant a lot to me.
[1:23:30] Part of it is we have this word called
[1:23:32] the I don't know if I'm pronouncing
[1:23:33] right, the anthroposine.
[1:23:35] >> Yeah. Anthroposine. Yeah.
[1:23:37] >> Okay. And basically it means we've
[1:23:39] entered a period of time where
[1:23:40] everything human dominates the planet
[1:23:43] and everything is human. Everything is
[1:23:46] filtered through human experience.
[1:23:47] There's no part of wilderness on any
[1:23:49] part of the planet we haven't touched
[1:23:51] and in some way altered even Antarctica.
[1:23:54] Okay? And so you don't realize as you
[1:23:58] walk through life that everything that
[1:24:00] you encounter is through this human
[1:24:02] lens, right? You don't have to
[1:24:05] everything is laid out for you. You have
[1:24:07] your phone. Everything is oriented.
[1:24:09] You're constantly interacting with
[1:24:10] humans and it's the only world you know.
[1:24:13] Well, the animal world is a different
[1:24:16] form of consciousness. It's a different
[1:24:18] way of relating to the world. And we are
[1:24:22] gifted with this intense ability to
[1:24:25] enter into the minds of other creatures.
[1:24:28] We can do this through science which is
[1:24:30] miraculous what they're uncovering about
[1:24:32] the consciousness of bats, of whales, of
[1:24:36] dolphins, of wolves. And we have our
[1:24:40] immense powers of empathy and
[1:24:42] imagination where we can feel what it
[1:24:44] could be like to be that creature.
[1:24:47] You combine those two together and it's
[1:24:50] an amazing gift that you must use to
[1:24:52] enter into the consciousness of other
[1:24:55] creatures. And so I tell the story of a
[1:24:58] man, a young man who had a very who had
[1:25:02] a terminal illness, rheumatoid
[1:25:03] arthritis, and he was in love with
[1:25:06] birds, particularly hawks, paragine
[1:25:08] falcons in England. He was obsessed with
[1:25:11] them. And as he knows this is perhaps
[1:25:14] the last season that he can can observe
[1:25:17] them because he's he's literally dying.
[1:25:20] He says, "I am going to become a a
[1:25:22] falcon. I'm going to be I'm going to go
[1:25:24] so intensely into their world that I'm
[1:25:26] going to feel what it's like to be that
[1:25:28] paragine. And it's not just intuition.
[1:25:32] He studied everything about their
[1:25:34] physiology. He looked at maps to
[1:25:36] understand what the world would might
[1:25:38] look like when you're flying 1,000 ft up
[1:25:40] high in the sky. He studied their
[1:25:42] physiology in detail. And he followed
[1:25:44] this one falcon everywhere until he felt
[1:25:48] like he was part of it, right? He could
[1:25:50] experience it and he could almost like
[1:25:52] he would see one of their kills in the
[1:25:55] snow and he would put his hand in it and
[1:25:57] he would like taste the blood like cuz
[1:25:59] the falcon was sort of love that taste
[1:26:01] of blood of his key creatures he killed
[1:26:04] >> his commitment to the commitment to the
[1:26:06] role.
[1:26:06] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
[1:26:09] And at at the end of it he feels like
[1:26:11] cuz the falcon is very wary of him
[1:26:13] looking at this ugly human that's
[1:26:15] followed this pink two-legged creature
[1:26:17] that's following him everywhere. He's
[1:26:19] kind of, oh, keep away. By the end of
[1:26:21] the story, the paragine has almost
[1:26:24] accepted him so that he could walk
[1:26:26] somewhat closer up to them and he could
[1:26:28] see them like a few yards away and he
[1:26:30] sees that the fal the paragine is
[1:26:32] sleeping. The ultimate sign that they
[1:26:34] they gain this trust.
[1:26:37] But the idea is
[1:26:39] we we have this deep deep need for
[1:26:43] connecting to animals. And the reason I
[1:26:46] explain is
[1:26:48] we think of dogs and cats and cattle as
[1:26:52] domesticated animals. But we are in fact
[1:26:55] the domesticated animal parex salon.
[1:26:58] When we became agriculturists, we live
[1:27:00] in these confined spaces. We limit what
[1:27:03] we can do. We limit what we can think.
[1:27:05] We limit who we can partner with. We can
[1:27:07] limit our food supply. We are these
[1:27:10] confined domesticated animals
[1:27:13] and we are obsessed. We are fascinated
[1:27:15] by what is wild because we are no longer
[1:27:18] wild. But we know that there's a part of
[1:27:20] us that could be wild. Right? So animals
[1:27:23] are our connection to who we used to be
[1:27:25] to that sense of freedom and wildness
[1:27:28] that used to be a part of the human
[1:27:30] experience. And so we are deeply deeply
[1:27:33] attracted to them and their senses. We
[1:27:37] think our intelligence makes us
[1:27:38] superior. But when it comes to senses,
[1:27:41] we're actually quite inferior. Right? So
[1:27:44] that hawk could see things we could
[1:27:46] never perceive, right? A dog lives in a
[1:27:51] world of smells. It can smell things and
[1:27:54] and relate the entire history of people
[1:27:57] that have passed through a room. These
[1:27:59] chemicals, they can smell everything,
[1:28:01] right? Birds have these intense powers
[1:28:03] of nav of seeing the magnetic fields of
[1:28:07] earth and navigating uh robins can
[1:28:09] navigate these incredible spaces by
[1:28:12] seeing the magnetic fields. Snakes can
[1:28:15] feel the heat of other organisms and
[1:28:18] sense right um spiders and elephants are
[1:28:21] attuned to the vibrations of the
[1:28:23] environment. So we are only seeing a
[1:28:26] tiny little sliver of the world. But
[1:28:28] there are vibrations. There are acoustic
[1:28:31] things. There are vision things we can't
[1:28:33] perceive visually. There's magnetic
[1:28:35] fields. There's heat. There's all these
[1:28:37] other things that we're missing of the
[1:28:39] reality of being on planet Earth. So if
[1:28:43] you explore all of these worlds, and I
[1:28:46] go through many different many different
[1:28:48] species,
[1:28:49] it's like your own consciousness is
[1:28:51] expanding. It's like you're becoming a
[1:28:54] part of them and you're seeing
[1:28:56] a different viewpoint of planet Earth
[1:28:59] and you can kind of internalize some of
[1:29:02] this and you can also feel a deep deep
[1:29:04] connection to the to the natural world
[1:29:07] to all the organisms that exist and get
[1:29:10] you out of this kind of human lock that
[1:29:12] we're all in.
[1:29:14] It's so fascinating to contemplate what
[1:29:17] the internal experience of an octopus or
[1:29:21] elephant or bat could be like. You know,
[1:29:23] >> octopuses. So, you had a Neil Seth on,
[1:29:25] right?
[1:29:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I also have uh this I
[1:29:27] don't know if you've seen this book,
[1:29:28] Other Minds. Peter Gothic. He's coming
[1:29:31] out next month.
[1:29:32] >> Oh, man. I'm so jealous. [laughter]
[1:29:34] That is a fantastic book.
[1:29:35] >> Yeah. I'm excited. I I feel like the
[1:29:37] luck luckiest guy to
[1:29:39] >> You are the luckiest guy. Jesus Christ,
[1:29:41] man. Well, you could talk to all these
[1:29:43] people, too.
[1:29:44] >> Well, I could and maybe I will. Well,
[1:29:46] Neil Seth wrote an amazing article um in
[1:29:49] a book called Aliens
[1:29:50] >> in which he speculated that octopuses
[1:29:54] could be what alien consciousness could
[1:29:56] be like,
[1:29:58] >> right? Because they have distributed
[1:30:00] consciousness.
[1:30:01] >> Their consciousness is not centered in a
[1:30:02] brain. It's throughout their whole body.
[1:30:05] Their arms have um have brain cells in
[1:30:09] them. So their arms can think and each
[1:30:12] arm has like a separate personality.
[1:30:15] And so imagine if your whole body was
[1:30:18] conscious is if you could smell through
[1:30:20] your feet, if you could see through your
[1:30:23] belly. That's what an octopus can do.
[1:30:26] And that maybe is what life on other
[1:30:28] planets could be like.
[1:30:30] >> But octopuses are the most insane of all
[1:30:33] because they live three years at most.
[1:30:36] And yet they're highly intelligent.
[1:30:38] They can do things that they have a form
[1:30:41] of intelligence that's remarkable and
[1:30:43] people who've experimented with them or
[1:30:45] live with them and and other minds goes
[1:30:48] into this. It's remarkable but they're
[1:30:50] not learning from experience because
[1:30:52] they only live 3 years. Where did this
[1:30:54] insane intelligence come from
[1:30:56] sephalopods who are not, you know,
[1:30:59] mollisks who are not gifted with
[1:31:01] intelligence? It's a remarkable story. H
[1:31:06] yeah it's um you have the line that I
[1:31:09] love our loneliness is not only in
[1:31:12] relation to other humans but also in
[1:31:14] relation to nature and to all forms of
[1:31:16] life [snorts] and
[1:31:19] um you speak about you know what animals
[1:31:21] did for your own loneliness reading this
[1:31:22] book and connecting with the creatures
[1:31:24] in your backyard.
[1:31:25] >> Yeah.
[1:31:26] >> Um
[1:31:27] >> and my cats.
[1:31:29] >> I owe everything to my cats. I'm a huge
[1:31:31] cat lover.
[1:31:33] Cats are trippy.
[1:31:35] >> Um, it's something again I think we take
[1:31:39] for for granted. All of these are
[1:31:40] doorways, as you say, as well into the
[1:31:42] sublime. And certainly not only just
[1:31:45] contemplating the quality of a of an
[1:31:48] animal that's so much different than our
[1:31:51] perceptual system, but also connecting
[1:31:52] with them.
[1:31:55] Like the animal agriculture industry is,
[1:31:57] I think, an absolute abomination. And I
[1:31:59] think we are so disconnected from seeing
[1:32:02] that yes, we have this amazing intellect
[1:32:06] and that's really novel to us human
[1:32:08] beings, but they're so intelligent and
[1:32:10] emotionally connected um as as beings in
[1:32:14] their own right. And we just forget
[1:32:16] that. And um I think that is
[1:32:20] something that is sad. while there's
[1:32:23] been many gifts building these concrete
[1:32:25] jungles and the technological era that's
[1:32:28] come, but we're like also so disconnect
[1:32:29] from having that encounter with wildlife
[1:32:31] and um yeah, I'm curious
[1:32:34] >> we're lonely. Uh, I tell a story early
[1:32:37] on though in in one chapter, I think the
[1:32:39] first chapter, no third chapter maybe,
[1:32:43] of um this indigenous man of a tribe in
[1:32:47] Siberia and this Russian scientist who
[1:32:50] encounters him, Teru Usula. There's a
[1:32:54] great film made from the story if you
[1:32:55] ever want to see it. um or also a book.
[1:32:59] But he was this indigenous hunter that
[1:33:01] lived by himself and hunted uh different
[1:33:03] furs and pelts, but he was part of this
[1:33:06] indigenous culture called gold. And the
[1:33:08] scientist
[1:33:10] is uses him as a scout and they develop
[1:33:13] this relationship and this kind of love
[1:33:15] and this friendship and through him he
[1:33:18] discovers this kind of indigenous way of
[1:33:21] looking at the world. And this man, Dar
[1:33:23] Su, is so connected to the environment
[1:33:26] that he can sense what the clouds are
[1:33:29] saying about the weather. He can sense
[1:33:31] the inner lives of all the animals
[1:33:33] around him. And at one point, a tiger is
[1:33:37] like a few feet away roaring at the a
[1:33:39] Siberian tiger. You don't want to mess
[1:33:41] with that. And the scientist is like
[1:33:43] trembling. He's pulling out his rifle.
[1:33:45] And Derus says, "Put down that gun." And
[1:33:47] he walks straight up to the tiger on the
[1:33:50] other side of the bushes and he talks to
[1:33:51] him. And he says, "Sorry, Ama. I know
[1:33:54] this is your Ama, the word for tiger.
[1:33:56] This is your world. We're sorry. We
[1:33:58] don't mean to intrude. We come here in
[1:33:59] peace. We will leave you alone. This is
[1:34:01] your forest. We bow down to you." The
[1:34:04] tiger calms down and walks away. And the
[1:34:08] scientist is like, "My god." And then he
[1:34:10] realizes that we humans used to have
[1:34:13] this power. We once were so connected to
[1:34:15] our environments that we had powers of
[1:34:18] thinking and a connection to the
[1:34:20] environment where we could sense things
[1:34:23] were about to happen. We could sense the
[1:34:24] weather. We could sense storms. We could
[1:34:26] sense danger and that we've lost it all.
[1:34:29] And he wondered
[1:34:31] what in the end of the book, what if we
[1:34:33] could combine our western technological
[1:34:36] sophistication
[1:34:38] with this kind of shamanistic
[1:34:40] relationship to the world? How much
[1:34:42] richer we would be? how much more
[1:34:44] powerful we would be. And so my point is
[1:34:48] our ancestors used to have that kind of
[1:34:50] closeness to the animal world because
[1:34:52] they felt it very deeply. And all of our
[1:34:55] spiritual practices emerged from
[1:34:58] worshiping animals, worshiping large
[1:35:00] animals because we couldn't believe that
[1:35:03] bears and wolves and mastadons existed.
[1:35:06] What what created this? They had to be
[1:35:09] godlike. So our relationship to the
[1:35:11] animal world is a very very important
[1:35:13] part of who we are.
[1:35:17] >> Yeah. In the doctrines of Vidanta
[1:35:20] Buddhism like when when they explain aa
[1:35:24] and having a quality of nonviolence.
[1:35:26] >> Yes.
[1:35:26] >> And the way that it transforms the way
[1:35:28] that you relate to not just animal but
[1:35:30] all all natural life. um you commune
[1:35:33] with it differently in a way that I've
[1:35:35] experienced in pockets where you know it
[1:35:39] takes you really feeling it and
[1:35:41] believing it to walk up to a tiger and
[1:35:43] you know do in that sense but
[1:35:46] >> animals of course can sense these subtle
[1:35:49] energies of fear trepidation and um when
[1:35:53] that's not present
[1:35:55] >> I found that there's a sensitivity not
[1:35:58] with just animals but also biological
[1:36:01] life at large, trees, plant life. Um
[1:36:05] that and it and it can sound so woo woo
[1:36:08] that they communicate. It's a shame that
[1:36:10] it does.
[1:36:10] >> It's a shame though, you know, cuz it it
[1:36:12] is real. And
[1:36:14] >> um I think they respond to you
[1:36:16] differently when you come from that that
[1:36:18] place of nonviolence.
[1:36:19] >> Well, if you've ever ridden horses, I
[1:36:21] did a lot in when I was very young.
[1:36:24] Horses are are basically unfortunately
[1:36:27] highly domesticated, but they're still
[1:36:30] an element of wildness to them. They
[1:36:32] sense your fear, your fear, your legs,
[1:36:35] the tension in your legs. It's said they
[1:36:38] know that there the rider on them is
[1:36:40] somebody that's nervous and fearful and
[1:36:41] it makes them nervous and fearful and it
[1:36:44] makes them behave in bad ways. If you're
[1:36:47] relaxed and you're calm, the horse
[1:36:49] senses it not just in your legs, but it
[1:36:51] senses your energy. Dogs have that too.
[1:36:55] And cats, they can sense when you're
[1:36:57] nervous, anxious, and that infects their
[1:36:59] moods. So, they have a sensitivity
[1:37:01] that's very powerful that we have lost.
[1:37:04] I'm forgetting the study of the uh like
[1:37:08] the trace pherommones that you can
[1:37:10] actually like test and and observe in a
[1:37:12] room where somebody was just angry or
[1:37:15] just had a fight
[1:37:16] >> versus had a joyous feeling. Like we
[1:37:18] emit these things, we chemically excrete
[1:37:20] them, you know? So it's
[1:37:22] >> it's we forget because it's kind of
[1:37:24] subperceptual and we can't see the
[1:37:26] non-physical, right? Um but it is
[1:37:28] fascinating to to ex to explore that
[1:37:31] dynamic and how it's playing out.
[1:37:32] >> Yes.
[1:37:33] >> So this goes nicely into chapter 7,
[1:37:36] love. And I wanted to read this line.
[1:37:39] Brick by brick, we erect walls around
[1:37:41] us. The world is no longer vibrating
[1:37:44] within us, but is outside of us at a
[1:37:46] distance. We become spectators at the
[1:37:49] banquet of life. And I'm curious for you
[1:37:51] just to elaborate a little bit more
[1:37:53] about this feeling that I think we can
[1:37:54] all relate to at times. Feeling like
[1:37:56] there is life. I'm a spectator of it and
[1:37:59] not involved with it to the same degree.
[1:38:01] So um what is the love sublime?
[1:38:05] Well um you know we're we're biologic
[1:38:08] physiological creatures. We have a need
[1:38:11] a drive to to reproduce to mate. um
[1:38:15] we're attracted to certain people and um
[1:38:20] and that sexual desire can translate
[1:38:23] into something deeper which is love and
[1:38:26] we might think it's only human but I do
[1:38:28] believe animals have it in a different
[1:38:30] way but it's a strange phenomenon if you
[1:38:33] think about it and we use the metaphor
[1:38:36] of falling in love which I think is is
[1:38:39] very eloquent.
[1:38:41] So when you're falling, there's a sense
[1:38:44] of vulnerability and fear because you
[1:38:48] fall very deeply and you know what
[1:38:50] what's at the bottom, right? Could be
[1:38:52] death. And so the the act of falling in
[1:38:56] love with another person involves a
[1:38:58] sense of fear like I'm opening myself
[1:39:01] up. I'm vulnerable. They could hurt me
[1:39:03] at any point. I'm letting them into my
[1:39:06] life. I'm becoming emotional
[1:39:08] and I could be damaged by this, right?
[1:39:12] If they abandon me, if they choose to
[1:39:14] ignore me, if they don't fall in love
[1:39:15] with me. And so we catch ourselves as
[1:39:18] we're falling, we stop here and we go,
[1:39:21] wait a minute, I'm not sure about this.
[1:39:24] And then when we get to that moment of
[1:39:26] wait a minute and all these kind of
[1:39:28] thoughts starts percolating in us about
[1:39:30] maybe they don't love us, maybe they can
[1:39:31] hurt us, maybe I can't trust them, they
[1:39:34] sense that as well and they might have
[1:39:37] been falling and they sense you're
[1:39:39] hitting that level and stopping and it
[1:39:41] causes them to stop and a kind of a
[1:39:43] mutual mistrust starts building. And so
[1:39:47] we walk around with all of these walls
[1:39:49] inside of us. We want to feel protected
[1:39:53] and our egos they may cause us pain of
[1:39:56] being separated but they also protect us
[1:39:58] from any kind of pain but they separate
[1:40:01] us from the world at large. They
[1:40:03] separate us from being open and involved
[1:40:05] in in experience and so your ego is
[1:40:09] trying to protect you and then other
[1:40:12] people will come will intervene and say
[1:40:13] oh that other person they may not be
[1:40:15] good for you. you may not be able to
[1:40:16] trust them. Blah blah blah blah blah.
[1:40:18] And then the sense of falling is broken.
[1:40:21] The spell is broken. It may go on for a
[1:40:24] few more months, but it's kind of
[1:40:25] dragging its feet. It's no longer love.
[1:40:27] It's like something else.
[1:40:30] You've you separate and now you know
[1:40:32] you've had that feeling of falling and
[1:40:34] it was one. It was kind of wondrous the
[1:40:36] first months of falling in love with
[1:40:38] someone, then it stopped, but you want
[1:40:40] it again. So, you find another person
[1:40:43] and then you start doing that again. And
[1:40:44] you stop again. You stop. You stop. You
[1:40:46] stop. You stop. You keep You never allow
[1:40:48] yourself to fall.
[1:40:51] And I tell the story of perhaps the
[1:40:53] greatest love story in Western history
[1:40:55] of Ablard Eloise. And the sensation of
[1:40:58] just falling completely where you lose
[1:41:02] all of your defenses, you lose all of
[1:41:04] your ego and you let the consciousness
[1:41:07] of another person merge inside of you
[1:41:10] and become a part of you. It's not like
[1:41:12] you lose who you are, but you feel deep.
[1:41:15] The other person is no longer an object,
[1:41:18] but they're a subject. They're part of
[1:41:19] you. They're inside of you to some
[1:41:21] degree. It's the most ecstatic, sublime,
[1:41:24] transcendent experience I believe humans
[1:41:27] can have because we are both physical
[1:41:31] and spiritual creatures. Sex is just
[1:41:34] pure physicality. Without the
[1:41:36] spirituality, it feels at the end kind
[1:41:38] of empty. Spirituality is great.
[1:41:41] Religion is great. But we're animal.
[1:41:43] We're physical creatures. There's
[1:41:45] something is missing.
[1:41:47] Putting the two together, the
[1:41:49] physicality and the spirituality and a
[1:41:50] love for another human being is a
[1:41:52] completely transcendent experience. But
[1:41:55] in order to do that, you have to allow
[1:41:57] that process of falling. And we live in
[1:42:00] a culture that very much degrades and
[1:42:04] denigrates that sense of falling in
[1:42:06] love. It seems romantic and sentimental.
[1:42:09] We think of love as being something of
[1:42:11] comfort and security and two people kind
[1:42:14] of just sort of helping each other and
[1:42:16] it's kind of milktoasty. It's lost its
[1:42:18] intensity.
[1:42:20] And what I'm trying to say in the book
[1:42:22] is love is an act of rebellion against a
[1:42:25] world that is so ugly and disenchanted
[1:42:27] and that wants that there's so many
[1:42:28] defenses. You're you're you're raising a
[1:42:31] middle finger to this culture and saying
[1:42:33] I'm rebelling against I'm rebelling
[1:42:35] against the narcissism and I'm going to
[1:42:37] let go of all my defenses and I'm going
[1:42:39] to give myself over to someone even if
[1:42:42] they hurt me. If they hurt me, so what?
[1:42:45] I'll rebound. I'm tough enough. I can
[1:42:47] handle it. I'll find someone else. But I
[1:42:50] just want to say the sense of letting
[1:42:53] yourself merge with another person and
[1:42:56] letting go of all your defenses can lead
[1:42:59] in some ways to the most sublime
[1:43:00] experience of all.
[1:43:03] You mentioned that we
[1:43:07] typically stop at a certain level of
[1:43:09] depth because of the fear it evokes for
[1:43:11] a loss of our individual self. um our de
[1:43:15] our defense mechanisms which we you know
[1:43:18] likely have a lifetime of evidence
[1:43:20] backing and it's scary in that process
[1:43:24] and I think we do live in a culture
[1:43:26] especially the younger generations where
[1:43:28] there's so much optionality
[1:43:30] um and you discard something the moment
[1:43:32] something uncomfortable happens
[1:43:34] >> and I'm curious what do you think
[1:43:36] happens when you stop
[1:43:39] >> resisting
[1:43:41] the potential you have to love and um
[1:43:45] take away somebody being an object and
[1:43:47] like you said commune with them as a
[1:43:49] subject and let that open and kind of
[1:43:51] break your heart in a sense.
[1:43:53] >> Yeah. Well, our our metaphor for for
[1:43:56] relationships between any kind of
[1:43:59] romance, gay or straight, is the
[1:44:01] marketplace. It's
[1:44:04] right. I can exchange one person for
[1:44:06] another. I can shop and I can find
[1:44:08] somebody better. There's always somebody
[1:44:10] better out there. But your um initial
[1:44:14] attraction to somebody
[1:44:17] is is there's a reason for it. There's
[1:44:19] something deep going on. It could be
[1:44:21] something primal. It could be something
[1:44:23] to do with your childhood. And if you
[1:44:25] look at the people you're attracted to,
[1:44:27] you will notice patterns. You'll notice
[1:44:29] a certain kind of look, a certain kind
[1:44:31] of energy that you are attracted to. And
[1:44:35] so the the thing that's stopping you is
[1:44:38] your mind. It is not the reality. So we
[1:44:42] are um emotional creatures, not so much
[1:44:46] intellectual but emotional creatures.
[1:44:48] We pick up the emotions of the other
[1:44:50] person like a virus. And when the other
[1:44:53] person is open and vulnerable and
[1:44:55] expresses a deep need to fall, we're
[1:44:58] invited to fall with them, right? And
[1:45:00] then the mutual process can occur and
[1:45:03] something profound can happen. Okay? But
[1:45:06] if we start closing ourselves off, as I
[1:45:08] said, the other person feels it and they
[1:45:11] close themselves off. And you know, if
[1:45:15] you can think of all the moments in your
[1:45:17] own life where someone actually sees you
[1:45:21] as an individual
[1:45:23] that kind of recognizes that you have a
[1:45:25] different experience from me, that you
[1:45:27] have a separate consciousness, that you
[1:45:29] have your own values, your own problems,
[1:45:31] your own emotions, that you are a
[1:45:33] subject, not an object.
[1:45:36] You could count on on one hand and less
[1:45:39] than one hand the amount of times you've
[1:45:40] had that feeling. But we all crave it.
[1:45:43] We all crave to have somebody recognize
[1:45:46] us not as an object to use for their
[1:45:49] satisfaction, for their sexual desires,
[1:45:52] but as an a subject that they can relate
[1:45:55] to that we can explore together in this
[1:45:58] kind of mutual exploration of what I
[1:46:01] call the love sublime.
[1:46:05] that distinction you give of
[1:46:08] our willingness to surrender to another.
[1:46:11] I'm curious how you contrast that with
[1:46:13] your work on seduction.
[1:46:14] >> Uhhuh.
[1:46:16] >> Because yeah, you've written the book on
[1:46:18] seduction.
[1:46:19] >> Yes, I have.
[1:46:19] >> And not the book, a book [laughter]
[1:46:22] >> in my words, you know, it's
[1:46:24] [clears throat]
[1:46:24] one wy recognized as, you know, one of
[1:46:27] the books on on on seduction seinal for
[1:46:29] sure. and um on the the strategy and the
[1:46:33] keeping the other person off balance and
[1:46:35] the uh the play that's at that. So, how
[1:46:37] do you cont?
[1:46:38] >> Well, it's a different book. It's a
[1:46:39] different uh subject matter.
[1:46:42] >> So, the art of seduction
[1:46:44] is you could use it to have someone fall
[1:46:48] in love with you and then you fall in
[1:46:49] love with them. But it's really about
[1:46:52] seduction, right? And the psychological
[1:46:54] process that's involved. And yes,
[1:46:57] there's a degree of manipulation and
[1:46:59] power games going on. And there's a kind
[1:47:01] of trans transgressive element because
[1:47:03] the word seduction kind of conjures up
[1:47:06] something a little bit dastardly and a
[1:47:08] little bit evil to us. I kind of embrace
[1:47:11] that in the book and I describe it and I
[1:47:14] describe the vast literature of
[1:47:16] seduction which kind of fascinates me
[1:47:19] because the psychological process
[1:47:23] is pretty damn intriguing when it comes
[1:47:25] to u sexual seductions, political
[1:47:29] seductions, marketing seductions, social
[1:47:31] seductions. What is it about the human
[1:47:34] brain that allows us to be seduced by
[1:47:37] another person? Okay, that is what I'm
[1:47:40] examining in that book. And so this is
[1:47:44] different. I agree. People will want to
[1:47:46] say, "Well, Robert, you've evolved.
[1:47:48] You're you're a higher big." I don't
[1:47:50] look at myself that way. I don't see
[1:47:53] breaks in that. It's a different book
[1:47:55] for a different time in my life, for
[1:47:57] maybe a different cultural moment,
[1:47:59] although a lot of people are still
[1:48:00] reading that book. But I will say one
[1:48:03] thing. I describe in the art of
[1:48:06] seduction the quintessential seduction
[1:48:09] lit fiction story dangerous leaisonants
[1:48:12] and there's this dastardly
[1:48:15] seducer named Val Mo who's seduced
[1:48:18] hundreds of women and he's the most
[1:48:20] manipulative evil seducer you could
[1:48:22] imagine. He meets this woman, President
[1:48:25] Turl, who's very prudish, very
[1:48:28] religious, and she's beautiful. And he
[1:48:30] decided, it's the ultimate challenge. If
[1:48:33] I could seduce this prude, then I will
[1:48:36] be famous throughout France, and I will
[1:48:38] have conquered the most impossible
[1:48:40] person. She resists him because she
[1:48:43] knows his horrible reputation. She
[1:48:44] resists. She resists. She resists. And
[1:48:46] as she keeps resisting him, he finds
[1:48:49] himself falling in love with her. He
[1:48:52] starts seeing that there's something
[1:48:53] about her spirit and her power that
[1:48:56] there's something else he didn't
[1:48:57] realize.
[1:48:59] And he starts letting go of his need to
[1:49:02] seduce. And he finds himself despite
[1:49:04] himself falling in love with her. And as
[1:49:07] he falls in love with her, she starts
[1:49:09] lowering her defenses and she starts
[1:49:11] falling for him because maybe he's not
[1:49:14] this evil seducer. She feels him falling
[1:49:16] in love with her. And then the seduction
[1:49:19] proceeds and of course he ends up
[1:49:21] seducing her and he ends up ruining her
[1:49:24] in her own way. But the lesson of it was
[1:49:27] in order to seduce her he had to fall in
[1:49:29] love with her. And that falling in love
[1:49:31] created a mutual kind of energy between
[1:49:34] them which is similar to what I'm
[1:49:36] describing in in this chapter. But I
[1:49:39] will say seduction and love sublime are
[1:49:41] different phenomena that I'm writing
[1:49:43] about.
[1:49:43] >> Yeah. And I appreciate that you aren't
[1:49:46] as precious with your own work to ever
[1:49:48] pigeon hole yourself into like, all
[1:49:50] right, I'm just exploring the
[1:49:51] underbelly, the dark side of human
[1:49:53] nature.
[1:49:54] >> Acknowledge it. It's very real. If you
[1:49:56] don't have awareness to the way it's
[1:49:58] operating, then you will it will be used
[1:50:00] against you. Um, and then there's also
[1:50:02] this more transcendent way of of living
[1:50:05] and falling in love and surrendering
[1:50:06] that is available. Um, and I think,
[1:50:09] yeah, having context and awareness for
[1:50:11] both is is incredibly important. Ah.
[1:50:14] >> Um, again making our way around around
[1:50:17] town on the circle,
[1:50:19] >> the circle of the sublime. Um,
[1:50:22] >> is the historical sublime which we can
[1:50:25] touch here um
[1:50:28] because I love how you explore we don't
[1:50:32] remember. We have this amnesia of all
[1:50:35] the ways that we are culturally through
[1:50:38] the myths and the stories and the
[1:50:40] languages that have been passed down
[1:50:41] shaping the way that we think about the
[1:50:44] world and of self. And um so it's
[1:50:47] something that's really uh excited me to
[1:50:50] even just dive more into history at
[1:50:52] large. And I think that um I yeah, I
[1:50:56] would just love for you to explain why
[1:50:57] is that such an important aspect that
[1:50:59] you felt you wanted to touch on here as
[1:51:00] I know you're a lover of history and the
[1:51:02] way that it informs our present.
[1:51:06] Well, um I had this notion while writing
[1:51:09] the book and I've had it before. I can't
[1:51:12] really explain because these are things
[1:51:13] are hard to verbalize, but I have the
[1:51:15] word there. And what I mean by that
[1:51:17] we're there and in my notes I'd always
[1:51:19] kind of write that is I'd be reading a
[1:51:22] story and I'd have this feeling that I
[1:51:24] was there that I could experience what
[1:51:28] it was like to be in ancient Rome that I
[1:51:30] was walking down the streets of ancient
[1:51:32] Rome and there were the shops and these
[1:51:34] things going on and I was there and I
[1:51:37] have this over and over again even in
[1:51:40] cultures that are so disperate like the
[1:51:42] Aztecs or watching a movie that takes
[1:51:45] place in Japan. pan in the 30s or 40s.
[1:51:49] It's a sensation of I'm human. I I can
[1:51:53] almost recall or feel what it was like
[1:51:55] to be there at that moment.
[1:51:58] And so I have this idea that history can
[1:52:01] be either something dead or alive.
[1:52:04] Your dead history is a bunch of facts.
[1:52:06] Napoleon conquered this country. He had
[1:52:09] these many soldiers. He used this
[1:52:11] strategy.
[1:52:13] Or there's a live history where I'm
[1:52:15] literally Napoleon Bonapart feeling, you
[1:52:19] know, my ego and my sense of pride and
[1:52:21] my superiority and the drama of the
[1:52:24] moment I'm in and I'm alive. I'm a human
[1:52:26] being living through this moment.
[1:52:28] Napoleon isn't this fantastic. He was a
[1:52:30] human being like you or I. He had
[1:52:31] conscious. He had emotions. He had
[1:52:33] insecurities.
[1:52:35] That is living history. And it's
[1:52:37] something that lives inside of us
[1:52:39] because we think of ourselves as just
[1:52:41] living in this present moment. But we
[1:52:43] are part of this stream of history. And
[1:52:47] we use language for our thinking. We
[1:52:50] have thoughts. We have ideas. We have
[1:52:52] concepts. We have cliches that we use in
[1:52:55] our language. They're not our own. We
[1:52:58] did not invent our language. We did not
[1:53:00] invent how our brain thinks. It's the
[1:53:02] product of thousands of years of
[1:53:05] evolution. And so the dead, the ghosts
[1:53:07] of the past are inside our brain right
[1:53:09] now. All the practices of the past, all
[1:53:13] the social things about strangers and
[1:53:16] weariness of strangers, which is part of
[1:53:19] our culture now with how we treat
[1:53:20] immigrants is a very human experience,
[1:53:23] right? It's in us. Social customs like
[1:53:26] that on and on and on. Our brains were
[1:53:29] formed thousands of years ago. It's the
[1:53:31] same brain. We're filled with these
[1:53:33] ghosts and these dead of the past and
[1:53:35] they're alive within us. So I want the
[1:53:38] reader as I tell these stories in
[1:53:40] history to feel like they are alive,
[1:53:42] that they are there in that moment.
[1:53:46] And I tell the story to introduce the
[1:53:48] chapter, one of my favorite stories in
[1:53:50] the book of these cave explorers in
[1:53:53] France who come upon a cave with the
[1:53:57] most magnificent cave paintings, one of
[1:53:59] the most magnificent cave paintings. I
[1:54:01] highly recommend this Verer Herdsog
[1:54:03] documentary about it. The cave of
[1:54:06] forgotten dreams. You will see what I
[1:54:08] mean. They are absolutely spectacular.
[1:54:11] Horses and mastadons and tigers etc.
[1:54:16] They're alive. They're so vivid. And
[1:54:18] these modern explorers are in this cave.
[1:54:21] They're the first ones to see it in
[1:54:23] 37,000 years.
[1:54:26] And they're so moved. They're so
[1:54:27] astounded by it. They feel the past come
[1:54:30] alive within them 37,000 years later.
[1:54:34] Right? And you have to ask yourself,
[1:54:38] what is it about human experience that's
[1:54:40] transcend such vast amounts of time?
[1:54:43] They could feel the rituals that were
[1:54:45] going on in this cave. They could feel
[1:54:47] the power of these animals. It's because
[1:54:51] we have the same brains as they do. We
[1:54:54] respond to the same things, the same
[1:54:55] patterns, the same aesthetic, the same
[1:54:58] abstraction of animals on a wall. We are
[1:55:02] creatures of the past. And the more we
[1:55:05] feel that inside of us now, then we feel
[1:55:08] something of eternity, of timelessness.
[1:55:11] We're not just living in the present.
[1:55:13] We're living through millions of years
[1:55:15] of evolution. And that's that's inside
[1:55:17] of us, not outside of us. H
[1:55:20] what do you think is one of the most
[1:55:22] predominant ways in which language in
[1:55:24] particular is shaping
[1:55:27] what we think is possible the way we
[1:55:29] relate to each other? Um yeah what what
[1:55:32] do you think is the predominant way in
[1:55:34] which the dead is controlling our
[1:55:36] present?
[1:55:37] Well um yeah our language is limiting.
[1:55:41] It's a constriction on on what we
[1:55:42] experience. But I can say this, having
[1:55:45] studied um ancient Greek, um
[1:55:49] their vocabulary was much wider than our
[1:55:52] own. And so they had words for colors
[1:55:57] that we can't even we have blue, blue.
[1:56:00] They had like 25 different words for
[1:56:03] blue. And that meant that they were
[1:56:05] seeing different shades of blue as they
[1:56:08] walked around. But we just see this one
[1:56:10] thing, right? And so language kind of
[1:56:14] limits your experience by the vocabulary
[1:56:16] that we use if we don't have words for
[1:56:18] things. We don't experience them. But
[1:56:21] think of how many words we don't have
[1:56:23] for my wife and I have this interesting
[1:56:25] experiment. She she's half Japanese. She
[1:56:28] knows some Japanese. And the Japanese
[1:56:30] have these words for things don't exist
[1:56:34] in English. like the feeling of
[1:56:36] someone's the back of their head and
[1:56:38] what is going on from the I I don't even
[1:56:41] you know better than I do probably. No,
[1:56:43] no, no. That's um and one I love is I
[1:56:47] think Kamar Rebei. It's like the dappled
[1:56:49] sunlight through the trees that like you
[1:56:51] ever walk into a room and there's like
[1:56:53] the the sun that's that's beaming in
[1:56:55] through a window that's like making
[1:56:56] pattern. That's so beautiful. Like
[1:56:58] that's a word that describes that.
[1:57:00] >> And I think of um you know there's that
[1:57:04] saying that Eskimos have a 100 different
[1:57:05] names for snow.
[1:57:06] >> That's right. And in the Sanskrit tra
[1:57:09] you know language and tradition they
[1:57:11] have so many words for our inner realm.
[1:57:14] >> Yeah.
[1:57:14] >> Right. Where
[1:57:16] >> the our our modern English language has
[1:57:18] is is great for the scientific endeavor.
[1:57:21] >> Um and I just of course just like we
[1:57:23] talked about no one perceptual system or
[1:57:26] sensory system is exhaustive of of all
[1:57:28] of reality. No one language is going to
[1:57:30] give us full full insight into into
[1:57:33] reality. Um it will never always fall
[1:57:35] short. But it is just fascinating how
[1:57:38] we're limited in ways we don't know.
[1:57:41] Like we don't know what we don't know in
[1:57:42] the way that we're using language and
[1:57:44] how it's limiting us.
[1:57:45] >> Well, the the prevailing metaphor for us
[1:57:48] now in the 21st century is the computer
[1:57:50] and algorithms and we think of the mind
[1:57:53] as a machine and we talk like that. You
[1:57:55] know, the our brains is like software
[1:57:57] and files in our mind etc.
[1:58:01] >> But in the past the metaphors were very
[1:58:03] different. And in that ch in this
[1:58:05] chapter we're talking about I describe
[1:58:08] I try and relive a moment in London
[1:58:10] England in the year 1749
[1:58:13] what it would be like and how different
[1:58:15] humans are. The prevailing metaphor was
[1:58:17] the theater. We are all actors on a
[1:58:21] stage and everyone's wearing a costume
[1:58:24] and everyone's playing a part and maybe
[1:58:27] we could play different parts and have
[1:58:28] fun and wear different costumes. And so
[1:58:31] when you have that kind of metaphor,
[1:58:34] you have a different set of language and
[1:58:36] everything sort of centers around the
[1:58:39] social personality. And the if you read
[1:58:42] like a novel of Jane Austin, which is,
[1:58:45] you know, 70 years later, the
[1:58:47] descriptions of the social nicities
[1:58:50] going on between people is intense. We
[1:58:53] don't think like that. We don't have
[1:58:54] that vocabulary.
[1:58:56] the Eskimos with their 50 different
[1:58:58] words for snow. Jane Austin has 50
[1:59:02] different words for all of the weird
[1:59:03] interactions between men and women, all
[1:59:05] the weird emotions passing between them.
[1:59:08] Because our metaphor is the computer,
[1:59:10] our language is kind of shrinking down
[1:59:12] to one of those manuals of computer
[1:59:15] speak, right? We're losing this kind of
[1:59:17] richness of describing things that go
[1:59:20] beyond just sort of technical technical
[1:59:23] phenomena.
[1:59:25] Yeah, I think of things like the DSM and
[1:59:27] all the diagnoses that we have for the
[1:59:30] mental ailments that are so prevalent in
[1:59:32] modern culture. Compare it to the um
[1:59:36] contemplative practices and how we just
[1:59:38] have like meditation is just one word
[1:59:40] that describes somebody sitting still
[1:59:42] peacefully is like kind of our word
[1:59:44] >> and you know there's
[1:59:45] >> there's dana, dhana, shunya, so many
[1:59:48] different words that describe different
[1:59:50] things that you could be doing while
[1:59:51] meditating, right? Yeah.
[1:59:53] >> Um and so it's it's fascinating and is
[1:59:56] something that uh you explore as we go
[1:59:58] into the next one of the Damon.
[2:00:00] >> Yeah.
[2:00:00] >> Um because
[2:00:02] it certainly feels like as the
[2:00:05] sociologist Culie um is quote is like I
[2:00:08] am not who I think I am. I'm not who you
[2:00:11] think I am. I am who I think you think I
[2:00:14] am. And we live in this perpetual image
[2:00:17] management.
[2:00:18] >> Yeah. Um, and so I would love for you
[2:00:20] just to lay out the the, you know, first
[2:00:23] second self and what a Damon is. Um, so
[2:00:27] that we can get a little bit closer to
[2:00:28] what is and who we are in our essence
[2:00:31] and essentially are. [snorts]
[2:00:33] Well, one day uh I think I awoke from a
[2:00:36] dream and I had this image in my head
[2:00:39] and the image was the real world or who
[2:00:43] I am, sorry, is just this jumbled black
[2:00:46] and white picture that you can barely
[2:00:48] focus on that's very chaotic. It's like
[2:00:51] this weird work of art. And that my mind
[2:00:54] then converts all that into this image
[2:00:57] of me in a mirror and who I am. But in
[2:01:00] fact, I'm a chaos of all these different
[2:01:02] impulse impulses that go flow through
[2:01:04] me. So we have a very simplified image
[2:01:09] of who we are. It's like how the brain I
[2:01:12] said constructs our reality.
[2:01:15] And the demon is a concept from ancient
[2:01:19] Greek. But if you study ancient
[2:01:21] religions and cultures, you will see
[2:01:23] that almost all of them have a similar
[2:01:26] concept. They had it in ancient Egypt
[2:01:27] called the ba. And basically what it is
[2:01:31] is the gods
[2:01:34] in the Greek sense were pied humans who
[2:01:37] were so lost and so miserable. They have
[2:01:39] no sense of the future or what's really
[2:01:41] going on around them. So out of pity
[2:01:43] they implanted in each human a day, a
[2:01:47] kind of god, a demigod in there that is
[2:01:50] fitted to their individuality, to their
[2:01:52] soul. It is actually a word for soul,
[2:01:54] right? And this don is placed in there
[2:01:57] by the god aeros. So there's an element
[2:01:59] of love and erotic element to it. And as
[2:02:02] they go through life, the don will speak
[2:02:05] to them of where they should be, what
[2:02:07] they should do, but it's completely
[2:02:10] themselves. that has nothing to do with
[2:02:12] anybody else. It's fitted precisely to
[2:02:14] who they are as an individual.
[2:02:17] And if you think of that, what it
[2:02:19] represents is you are not this
[2:02:22] sophisticated creature with all these
[2:02:24] languages and all these social layers
[2:02:26] and personalities.
[2:02:28] You are just this organism with an
[2:02:31] energy, with a biology, with a
[2:02:32] physiology. Your heart beats to
[2:02:35] particular rhythm. Your blood flows in
[2:02:37] its own way. You have your own energy
[2:02:40] about you that has nothing to do with
[2:02:41] words, that has nothing to do with
[2:02:43] concepts or categories. It's you as this
[2:02:46] biological creature with your very
[2:02:49] unique DNA with this particular way your
[2:02:52] brain is wired unlike any other human
[2:02:55] being. You are completely unique. You
[2:02:57] are a true individual and that is your
[2:03:00] dayong. That is life implanting itself
[2:03:04] in you. It's kind of a transcendent
[2:03:05] force.
[2:03:08] to to us today that seems God that's
[2:03:10] just so goddamn irrational. How silly,
[2:03:13] Robert? How woo woo can you get? Right.
[2:03:16] But I don't think of it that way. I like
[2:03:18] to I like to um sort of translate it
[2:03:21] into these terms that I I just
[2:03:23] mentioned. And the reason why it seems
[2:03:25] so alien to us is we're so captured by
[2:03:28] the social. We're so captured by how
[2:03:31] other people look at us, how they judge
[2:03:33] us, that we have no idea anymore of who
[2:03:36] we are. Oh, I'm shy. I'm ambitious.
[2:03:41] I'm successful.
[2:03:43] I'm I'm insecure. But they're all in
[2:03:46] relation to how other people judge you.
[2:03:48] You think you're shy. Okay, you're shy.
[2:03:51] But in other situations with some
[2:03:53] people, you're not so shy. You're shy in
[2:03:55] front of your boss but in front of
[2:03:57] children you kind and some people you
[2:03:59] open up. So who are you? You're not
[2:04:01] these qualities that you think that you
[2:04:03] have. You're a mystery to yourself. You
[2:04:06] are so alienated from who you truly are
[2:04:09] that you think that this social mirrors
[2:04:12] of judgments of categories is who you
[2:04:15] are. Right? But there's something much
[2:04:17] deeper. There's something much more
[2:04:19] authentic about you. It is a voice in
[2:04:22] your head that if you listen to is
[2:04:25] telling you these are things that are
[2:04:28] you that are natural to you. These are
[2:04:30] things that attract you. These are
[2:04:31] things that repel you. This is who you
[2:04:33] are as this biological creature that has
[2:04:36] a particular energy.
[2:04:39] And even if you and if you tap into it
[2:04:42] and if you hear that voice, it's very
[2:04:45] very powerful. It guides you.
[2:04:48] I've always had this feeling since I was
[2:04:51] pretty young that there was something
[2:04:53] kind of guiding me in life. I've made a
[2:04:56] lot of mistakes. I did not have any
[2:04:59] success until I was 38, 39 years old. I
[2:05:03] was wandering through life. I was lost.
[2:05:05] I had moments of deep depression. I even
[2:05:07] had moments of suicide, suicidal
[2:05:10] thoughts. But there was always something
[2:05:11] in the back of my mind that was guiding
[2:05:13] me that was saying, "Stop that. Go here.
[2:05:16] Don't don't go this direction, go that
[2:05:18] direction. Almost like a feeling of like
[2:05:21] fate. And when I listened to it and I
[2:05:23] had this horrible job and I quit the
[2:05:26] job, I knew I was like aligning with
[2:05:29] that voice inside of me. And then, you
[2:05:32] know, I happened to write the books that
[2:05:34] I have and my life changed. But that
[2:05:37] feeling like there is a fate that fits
[2:05:39] you, that's that's you. And when you
[2:05:43] follow it, things good things happen.
[2:05:45] And when you ignore it, you turn into
[2:05:47] dead ends and you become so depressed,
[2:05:49] you don't know why. I think it's a very
[2:05:52] alive concept and it's the don and I
[2:05:54] want to reintroduce it to the modern
[2:05:56] audience to think that you have a second
[2:05:59] self buried deep within all these social
[2:06:02] layers that you think you are but are
[2:06:04] not you. They're just reflections of
[2:06:06] what other people think you are.
[2:06:10] I resonate so much with what you said in
[2:06:12] the way that
[2:06:15] It's easy to get lost in the
[2:06:17] descriptions of self continually through
[2:06:19] the relations of others and how they see
[2:06:22] you. And it's it's dead cuz you're
[2:06:25] listen you're looking through a mirror
[2:06:26] of a mirror instead of listening from
[2:06:28] the the to the source and that primary
[2:06:31] self. And
[2:06:35] um I'm curious about clarifying that cuz
[2:06:37] you also wrote an amazing book on
[2:06:39] mastery which is like finding your
[2:06:41] life's task, devoting yourself to it,
[2:06:43] the apprenticeship of it
[2:06:44] >> where whereas the mastery book feels
[2:06:46] like building towards
[2:06:49] a life. This is like I think orienting
[2:06:52] towards like listening a little bit more
[2:06:53] in the way that you've been writing
[2:06:54] about it and
[2:06:58] certainly one of the most immediate
[2:07:00] accesses I've had to my own personal
[2:07:02] experience of Sublime are when those
[2:07:04] moments especially like on this podcast
[2:07:06] where I feel like I'm I'm all the things
[2:07:09] that I love and that I'm good at and my
[2:07:11] skill sets come together in this boiling
[2:07:12] pot of like an offering that's
[2:07:14] contributing to the world in a
[2:07:15] meaningful way.
[2:07:16] >> And I think we all yearn for that
[2:07:17] feeling. And um I'm curious how we and
[2:07:20] how you've learned through your
[2:07:22] research, through your own personal
[2:07:24] life, been able to discover and clarify
[2:07:27] listening to what is that original
[2:07:29] primary self, maybe you call it the
[2:07:30] second self, but that Damon that that
[2:07:33] voice that has an intelligent kind of
[2:07:35] guidance system for you. How do you
[2:07:37] clarify to actually really hear that
[2:07:39] more?
[2:07:41] Well, you know, it's hard for me to
[2:07:45] understand other people sometimes and
[2:07:48] it's particularly in light of mastery
[2:07:49] because I call it in mastery your life's
[2:07:52] task, which is another word for it. And
[2:07:55] a lot of people afterwards would come to
[2:07:57] me and for advice and say, "Robert, I
[2:07:59] have no idea what my life's task is.
[2:08:01] Help me find it."
[2:08:03] And the hard problem for me is I always
[2:08:06] had a sense of it since I was a child.
[2:08:08] Words in language and books
[2:08:12] enchanted me. They were so rich. They
[2:08:15] were so exciting that I knew that this
[2:08:17] is where I had to be in life. And even
[2:08:20] though I had moments where I lost it, I
[2:08:22] always found myself back to that. I knew
[2:08:24] I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't
[2:08:26] get into science. I couldn't get into
[2:08:27] computers. I was not gifted for anything
[2:08:30] else but words. And so it's hard for me
[2:08:34] to understand, but I've had to put
[2:08:36] myself in other people's shoes.
[2:08:39] And the problem is you don't hear that
[2:08:42] voice because you're hearing a thousand
[2:08:44] other voices in your head. You're
[2:08:47] hearing the voice of your parents plays
[2:08:49] a huge role. I had this moment in my
[2:08:53] meditation this morning where I was
[2:08:55] going I was being aware of myself and I
[2:08:59] was going Robert stop thinking stop
[2:09:01] having these thoughts and I'm going
[2:09:03] where is that voice coming from? Who is
[2:09:05] that saying that? And then I realize
[2:09:09] that it was a voice probably from my
[2:09:11] mother who was always observing me as a
[2:09:14] child and kind of scrutinizing me and
[2:09:16] judging me. and I've internalized her
[2:09:19] voice and I'm always scrutinizing and
[2:09:21] judging myself. And so I became aware
[2:09:24] that I was performing in front of this
[2:09:26] invisible audience continually through
[2:09:29] my life. So you have these voices inside
[2:09:32] of you from your parents, from your
[2:09:35] peers, your your friends, from your
[2:09:37] colleagues at work, from social media,
[2:09:40] the thousand different voices that you
[2:09:42] were hearing on your Instagram feed. And
[2:09:45] you have no idea anymore who you are.
[2:09:47] You become a reflection of all the
[2:09:49] different things going on in the culture
[2:09:52] and you have no relationship to that day
[2:09:55] to that ex that life's task that voice
[2:09:57] inside of your head. And so the process
[2:10:02] the older you get the harder it becomes.
[2:10:05] But if you're 19, 20, 21 years old, and
[2:10:07] I've helped a lot of people find it,
[2:10:10] it's not so difficult because you're
[2:10:12] still close enough to your childhood.
[2:10:14] And when you were a child, you felt that
[2:10:17] voice very naturally. I love sports. I
[2:10:20] love mathematics. I'm attracted to
[2:10:22] music. I'm attracted to the social and
[2:10:25] other people. I'm attracted to words and
[2:10:27] language, patterns, etc. You knew it as
[2:10:31] a child. You felt it deeply, but then
[2:10:34] you've forgotten it. And you don't you
[2:10:36] forgot it so deeply that you don't even
[2:10:37] have any concept of this anymore. I'm
[2:10:40] returning you through a process. It's
[2:10:43] almost like a kind of therapy to who you
[2:10:45] were as a child to those things that
[2:10:49] excited you so deeply
[2:10:51] you can't even find words for them.
[2:10:53] Right. And I don't know if we talked
[2:10:56] about yourself, we could we could
[2:10:58] perhaps clarify that why those moments
[2:11:01] in podcasting kind of feel that way.
[2:11:04] There was something about you, the
[2:11:06] Andre, when you were 3 or four years old
[2:11:09] that is still alive within you in those
[2:11:11] moments.
[2:11:12] >> Mhm.
[2:11:12] >> You have a child inside of you that's
[2:11:14] still alive that's screaming for
[2:11:16] attention, but you can't hear it
[2:11:18] anymore. It's who you were and who you
[2:11:20] are. So, we have to go through a process
[2:11:22] of digging. We have to cut away all the
[2:11:24] things that you hate. I hated working
[2:11:27] for other people. I couldn't stand
[2:11:30] office politics. I couldn't stand all
[2:11:33] the egos and all the gameplay. It drove
[2:11:35] me crazy. In fact, it inspired the 48
[2:11:38] laws of power. I hated it so much.
[2:11:41] >> Right? So, that to me was a signal that
[2:11:44] I can't work for other people.
[2:11:47] It makes it a little hard in life, but
[2:11:48] it means I have I finally found my way
[2:11:50] to the one thing I can do where I don't
[2:11:52] have to work for other people. What is
[2:11:54] it you hate? We go through this process
[2:11:57] pruning away all the other little voices
[2:11:59] going on inside of your head from your
[2:12:01] mother, your father, your friends
[2:12:02] telling you who you are. You cut that
[2:12:04] out slowly and maybe you can find your
[2:12:06] way back to that real voice that says
[2:12:10] this is who I am. It feels right. When
[2:12:14] you've discovered something feels right
[2:12:15] and something opens up inside of you,
[2:12:18] it's not going to be a specific thing.
[2:12:19] It's not like I was meant to be a
[2:12:22] chemical engineer. No, it's it's more
[2:12:24] general.
[2:12:25] >> Yeah.
[2:12:25] >> I have a love of science. I have a love
[2:12:28] of research and discovering things. I
[2:12:31] have a love of words. I have a love of
[2:12:32] physical movement and motion. It's
[2:12:35] general. But once you capture that
[2:12:37] general thing that attracts you, then we
[2:12:39] can start figuring out getting a little
[2:12:42] bit more specific and tailoring where
[2:12:44] you go in life to to suiting that
[2:12:47] because a lot of it has to do
[2:12:50] in mastery with your career path in the
[2:12:53] day. It's not so gener related to your
[2:12:56] career path. It's more of sense of
[2:12:57] fulfillment.
[2:12:59] But your career path is very important.
[2:13:01] And it's a very important part of your
[2:13:02] life and figuring out a direction you
[2:13:05] can head into that feels like you're you
[2:13:09] like you podcasting. I don't know what
[2:13:11] you were doing before but you were
[2:13:12] probably in some career that didn't feel
[2:13:14] right. Is that correct?
[2:13:16] >> Yeah. Uh not fully right but right in a
[2:13:19] in a context that's helpful to this
[2:13:21] right. you know, it was it was more in
[2:13:23] film making uh and and videography and
[2:13:25] photography, which I still love, but
[2:13:27] isn't like my absolute, but it it's it's
[2:13:29] made its way into helping this, you
[2:13:31] know, and and things that we do now. So,
[2:13:34] yeah, not fully aligned, but but
[2:13:37] integrated sort of
[2:13:39] >> Yeah. Um and I find it really
[2:13:41] fascinating because we so we just
[2:13:43] started doing these inerson retreats and
[2:13:45] on the third day it's about contribution
[2:13:47] and we do a value clarification process
[2:13:50] and I found it really interesting that
[2:13:52] you mentioned um what really was one of
[2:13:55] the bigger things that ignited the 48
[2:13:58] laws of power was the things that you
[2:14:00] didn't like the things that um that that
[2:14:03] also clarifies your direction as much as
[2:14:06] the things that you value as the things
[2:14:07] you don't Right.
[2:14:09] >> Um, so I found that really insightful as
[2:14:11] well to like examine that and look at
[2:14:13] that um because it helped push you down
[2:14:18] and and follow and listen to the path
[2:14:19] that that is in alignment.
[2:14:21] >> Yeah. And um the people that you're
[2:14:24] attracted to and the people you're not
[2:14:26] attracted to, the the spirits of of a
[2:14:30] place that you feel aligned with and the
[2:14:32] spirits of the place that kind of I
[2:14:34] can't stand being in this just
[2:14:35] physically. Trust your intuitions. Trust
[2:14:38] that feeling of ew. Trust that thing
[2:14:41] that's hard to even put in words or I
[2:14:43] don't like this. This isn't this isn't
[2:14:45] me. Now, it doesn't have to you can't
[2:14:48] have everything glorious and wonderful
[2:14:50] and easy in life. They're going to be
[2:14:51] jobs where you have to do things that
[2:14:53] you don't like. I don't want to make
[2:14:55] give you the wrong impression. But in an
[2:14:57] overall sense, if you're in a career
[2:14:59] path where it's like, oh, this doesn't
[2:15:01] fit me. I'm uncomfortable. I'm
[2:15:04] frustrated.
[2:15:06] I'm telling you to listen to that voice
[2:15:08] very deeply and take it very seriously
[2:15:10] because it's t it's talking to you.
[2:15:13] >> You tell the story of Ingred Bergman.
[2:15:15] >> Yeah.
[2:15:16] >> And um I'm I'm curious for you to share
[2:15:18] a little bit about that and what happens
[2:15:20] when you don't listen to that voice as
[2:15:22] it turns from a demon to a demon.
[2:15:24] >> Yeah.
[2:15:25] >> And uh um yeah, I would love to hear.
[2:15:29] >> Well, she's a a remarkable story. Um a
[2:15:33] lot of people may not have heard of her.
[2:15:34] She was a fantastic actress, probably
[2:15:36] one of the greatest actresses ever. She
[2:15:38] had this ability to to to feel so
[2:15:41] natural, you felt like she wasn't
[2:15:42] acting. And the story of her life is her
[2:15:46] mother dies when she's very young and
[2:15:48] her father owns a photography shop. And
[2:15:50] she's drawn to wearing costumes and
[2:15:53] being photographed and she comes alive
[2:15:55] and playing these different parts. Part
[2:15:58] of it was feeling like she could be
[2:16:00] another person because she lost her
[2:16:02] mother and she was sort of a lost
[2:16:04] person.
[2:16:05] She sees a movie and she goes, "Oh my
[2:16:08] god, these characters on the screen.
[2:16:10] This is enchantment. How you can be
[2:16:12] inside a character that's invented
[2:16:15] that's on this like silent film was
[2:16:19] silent back in those days. She's
[2:16:20] enchanted. She goes to a play with her
[2:16:23] father and she screams in intermission,
[2:16:25] "That's what I'm going to do, papa. I'm
[2:16:27] going to become an actress because she's
[2:16:29] so enchanted with the physicality of of
[2:16:32] a stage like almost a dollhouse and
[2:16:34] people playing these different roles,
[2:16:37] right? So, she knows early on this is
[2:16:39] where she's headed. She goes to acting
[2:16:42] school and it feels wonderful. She's
[2:16:44] alive. She gets into her first film. She
[2:16:46] goes, "This is even better because it's
[2:16:48] related to my father and photography."
[2:16:50] Her father dies when she's young and
[2:16:52] she's always been in love with her
[2:16:54] father. So, I'm going to do film. She
[2:16:57] gets into She becomes like Sweden's
[2:16:59] greatest actress, even greater than
[2:17:01] Greta Garbo. She's just so famous
[2:17:03] because she's beautiful. She's natural.
[2:17:06] Hollywood comes calling. She goes to
[2:17:08] Hollywood. They want to make her over.
[2:17:11] They want to make her face more
[2:17:13] glamorous. They want to cut her hair.
[2:17:14] They want to fix her mouth. They want to
[2:17:17] do all these things. They want to change
[2:17:18] her name. She says, "No, I'm none of
[2:17:21] that. I'm going back to Sweden. you
[2:17:22] either take me as I am or I'm not going
[2:17:25] to be here. In other words, she hears
[2:17:26] this voice that keeps telling her what
[2:17:28] she wants, where she's going. She's very
[2:17:30] adamant at it. She gets into the
[2:17:33] Hollywood mill and she becomes very she
[2:17:35] becomes the most successful actress in
[2:17:37] in the Hollywood system. She's adored.
[2:17:40] She has a perfect marriage. Everyone
[2:17:42] thinks she's wonderful, but she's
[2:17:44] incredibly uncomfortable because she's
[2:17:47] playing this role of this saintly woman.
[2:17:50] She doesn't feel that her marriage is
[2:17:51] unhappy. She's having affairs and
[2:17:54] they're typ casting her and it just
[2:17:56] feels wrong.
[2:17:58] She leaves Hollywood. She falls in love
[2:18:00] with this Italian director Roselini. She
[2:18:03] has an affair with him. He's married.
[2:18:04] She's married. She's this disgraceful
[2:18:07] figure now. She went from being a saint
[2:18:09] to being this that is like banned.
[2:18:12] People won't look at her films anymore.
[2:18:15] But through Roselini she discovers that
[2:18:18] she wants a different kind of film
[2:18:19] making that it was like when she was a
[2:18:21] child that she can explore these parts
[2:18:24] that are incredibly natural that are
[2:18:25] lifelike and she goes in a completely
[2:18:28] new direction and it opens up a new
[2:18:30] chapter in her life. But the point is
[2:18:34] this power inside of her was so strong
[2:18:37] that whenever she took a wrong turn the
[2:18:40] voice would say get the hell out. She
[2:18:43] was going to tell David Oselnik, the
[2:18:47] great producer, "I'm not going to be in
[2:18:49] Hollywood. If you want to make me over,
[2:18:51] screw it. I'm going back to Sweden." For
[2:18:53] an actress, that was an act of
[2:18:56] incredible strength because you did.
[2:18:57] Actresses were like pawns. She listened
[2:19:00] to it and she rebelled when people tried
[2:19:02] to make her into something she wasn't.
[2:19:04] And it made her an incredibly fulfilled
[2:19:07] career with all different chapters in
[2:19:09] her life because she was constantly
[2:19:12] attuned to that voice inside of her.
[2:19:16] >> Now that voice inside of us has
[2:19:18] different flavors for us all. I love I
[2:19:21] got introduced through Howard to Howard
[2:19:23] Gardner's work through you.
[2:19:25] >> Yeah. Oh, really?
[2:19:26] >> Yeah. And I'm curious what uh if you
[2:19:28] were to give a bird's eye view of of
[2:19:30] those different to forms of intelligence
[2:19:32] as and why it's important.
[2:19:34] >> The the it's not so much the different
[2:19:36] forms of intelligence that are
[2:19:37] important. It's the fact that there are
[2:19:39] different forms of intelligence. So we
[2:19:42] think of intelligence as just this kind
[2:19:44] of intellectual capacity. But what
[2:19:46] Howard Gardner shows is that there are
[2:19:49] other forms of intelligence.
[2:19:51] So there's kinetic intelligence which
[2:19:55] has to do with movement in sports in
[2:19:57] dance. So a great basketball player or
[2:20:01] ballerina dancer has an intelligence
[2:20:04] that's not intellectual
[2:20:06] but is part of her body and it's
[2:20:08] intelligence just as good as as Hegel or
[2:20:12] Nietze or any philosopher right it's
[2:20:14] form of intelligence music is a form of
[2:20:18] intelligence and music is all about
[2:20:20] patterns right patterns of notes and
[2:20:24] it's related to math and certain brains
[2:20:27] are attracted to those kinds of patterns
[2:20:29] and sounds for themselves and that's
[2:20:32] what like a Mozart was like or a John
[2:20:34] Cold Train. There are words like it was
[2:20:36] for me. There's the social element like
[2:20:40] you you love being around people. You're
[2:20:41] very good with people and you want to
[2:20:44] it's almost like it's could be a great
[2:20:46] career path for you. There's
[2:20:48] engineering. There's making things.
[2:20:50] That's knowing the shapes of things and
[2:20:52] having mechanical intelligence.
[2:20:55] Something I realized very young age that
[2:20:56] I was terrible at. Right. So the main
[2:21:00] thing is each person has a kind of a
[2:21:04] grain to their brain that draws them to
[2:21:07] this particular form of intelligence.
[2:21:09] Now you can have a combination of them
[2:21:12] like a Leonardo da Vinci or something.
[2:21:14] There's also visual intelligence. I left
[2:21:16] that out. Um yes, but generally there is
[2:21:20] one frame that fits you and that is you
[2:21:25] and that if you if you know that that
[2:21:28] this is your form of intelligence, you
[2:21:30] will make the right choices in life. So
[2:21:34] parents will often think
[2:21:37] my kid is into dance and sports. I want
[2:21:40] them to get into math. I want them to be
[2:21:42] able to go to college and go become a
[2:21:44] doctor. And that this is just a
[2:21:45] frivolous thing, dance and sports. And
[2:21:48] so they deviate their child from that
[2:21:50] path. The child hears their parents.
[2:21:53] They l they go through medical school.
[2:21:56] It doesn't feel good. They're not
[2:21:58] doesn't feel comfortable. They know that
[2:22:00] they were attracted to physical things.
[2:22:02] And if they don't return to that,
[2:22:04] they're going to be a miserable person
[2:22:06] for their whole life. And so often your
[2:22:09] parents and your teachers deviate you
[2:22:11] from what you are naturally gifted at.
[2:22:14] You may not be gifted at math at all and
[2:22:16] yet they force you to learn math and you
[2:22:19] hate it and it turns you off from
[2:22:20] learning in general. So if you are tuned
[2:22:23] yourself to what that is for me it was
[2:22:26] words I what would it have been for you
[2:22:29] in that those frames?
[2:22:30] >> The the pattern and music one is was
[2:22:33] something I can track back is like
[2:22:34] always kind of I always love math and
[2:22:37] music from an early age.
[2:22:40] >> Um I would say probably that one.
[2:22:43] Uh-huh.
[2:22:43] >> Um
[2:22:46] cuz yeah, kinesesthetic, linguistic,
[2:22:50] the musical,
[2:22:52] uh mathematical one. What else is there?
[2:22:55] The sociological
[2:22:56] one or people one.
[2:22:57] >> Yeah. And and visual. I don't know if
[2:23:00] that was also related to the mechanical
[2:23:02] one. I can't remember.
[2:23:04] >> Yeah, probably that one. Maybe. Maybe
[2:23:06] the people one a little bit. I don't
[2:23:07] know.
[2:23:08] >> Uhhuh.
[2:23:09] >> Okay.
[2:23:10] >> Yeah. So um the main idea is that
[2:23:14] intelligence is not just intellectual.
[2:23:16] It's not just
[2:23:18] words and and being able to descrial
[2:23:21] analyze things and critique things.
[2:23:24] Being a being good at physical things is
[2:23:26] just as valuable as being good at
[2:23:28] intellectual things. And we and we
[2:23:30] should acknowledge that in our culture.
[2:23:32] >> Yeah. You give this context of how the
[2:23:34] demon is ruthless and will punish you
[2:23:36] for straying. Um and you describe a kind
[2:23:41] of person who reaches their damon but
[2:23:43] subtracts the love from it and it
[2:23:45] becomes service to self and all.
[2:23:48] >> Yeah. Um so talk to me a little bit of
[2:23:50] of that and maybe any examples come to
[2:23:53] life where somebody be can become
[2:23:55] incredibly developed following their
[2:23:57] Damon but it turns against them.
[2:24:01] Well, um the the part of Aeros injecting
[2:24:06] the demons seemed very interesting to me
[2:24:09] and very telling and it's that
[2:24:13] uh cuz the Greeks were were not so
[2:24:15] prudish as we are. They could see the
[2:24:17] sexual component in intelligence is
[2:24:21] sexual energy permeated everything.
[2:24:24] >> Aeros Yeah.
[2:24:24] >> Yeah. And so Aeros is the god of love.
[2:24:27] And so the idea that you have this
[2:24:30] special spirit inside of you is infused
[2:24:33] with that drop of love. And so it means
[2:24:37] that there's there's a kind of
[2:24:39] excitement that is a kind of love of
[2:24:42] what you're doing and a love and with
[2:24:45] that love comes this sort of compassion
[2:24:47] and empathy that is natural with with
[2:24:50] the love emotion, right? this kind of
[2:24:52] attraction to things
[2:24:54] >> but also this this empathy and people
[2:24:59] who hear that voice but subtract the
[2:25:02] love they become very powerful they
[2:25:05] become extremely good at something but
[2:25:07] they have no there's no love attached to
[2:25:09] it there's no kind of energy that's
[2:25:12] beyond just getting power and success
[2:25:16] I mean a classic example would be a
[2:25:18] Joseph Stalin for instance who I studied
[2:25:22] very deeply because I'm kind of
[2:25:23] intrigued by these kind of demonic
[2:25:25] figures. He was actually a very
[2:25:28] interesting child who was interested in
[2:25:30] poetry and literature but he also had a
[2:25:33] very troubled childhood and he was
[2:25:36] mistreated and so his energy became I
[2:25:39] have to get power I have to get power
[2:25:41] over people and that became the dominant
[2:25:43] force in his life and he became so good
[2:25:46] at it because he was such an observer of
[2:25:48] humanity and seeing people's weaknesses
[2:25:51] that he knew how to exploit people to a
[2:25:54] very high degree. He became brilliant at
[2:25:56] that psychological game. But there was
[2:25:59] absolutely no love, no compassion, no
[2:26:01] empathy involved.
[2:26:03] If you've ever encountered a narcissist,
[2:26:06] and in my book on human nature, I have a
[2:26:08] whole chapter on narcissism cuz it
[2:26:10] fascinates me because we've all had to
[2:26:12] deal with them and I've had to deal with
[2:26:14] them, right? They're like these weird
[2:26:16] creatures. And if you look at
[2:26:18] narcissists,
[2:26:20] they give the impression of listening to
[2:26:22] you. They give the impression that
[2:26:24] they're interested in you, right? Which
[2:26:27] is strange because you think, well, that
[2:26:28] that's not a narcissistic quality, but
[2:26:31] they're looking they're interested in
[2:26:32] you. So, how they can use you, you
[2:26:35] become an object for them, an extension
[2:26:37] of their own willpower. And so, they're
[2:26:39] listening to you without any life. And I
[2:26:42] tell people, look at their eyes as
[2:26:44] they're listening to you. Their eyes
[2:26:46] will be kind of dead. They're not
[2:26:48] registering your story as something
[2:26:50] subjective that they can get inside.
[2:26:53] They're seeing you as this animal that
[2:26:55] they can torture or use, this object
[2:26:57] that they can play with. It's in their
[2:26:59] eyes. Their eyes are dead. So, these
[2:27:02] narcissists
[2:27:03] can be very powerful. They're very good
[2:27:05] at observing people, but it's subtracted
[2:27:08] with all that love energy, the arrows,
[2:27:10] and so they become truly demonic, and
[2:27:13] they get power, and they're successful.
[2:27:15] And Elon Musk is a raging narcissist. We
[2:27:20] know that. And if you read the books
[2:27:22] about him, it's very clear. He's someone
[2:27:24] who's gained all this power and success.
[2:27:27] He's very good at at marketing and at in
[2:27:32] inventing things, but there's absolutely
[2:27:34] no love. There's no compassion. There's
[2:27:36] no empathy in it. It's a deadness. It's
[2:27:38] a complete deadness to it. That's the
[2:27:40] demonic.
[2:27:41] >> H
[2:27:43] this,
[2:27:44] as you likely intended, flows into the
[2:27:47] aesthetic sublime. You say that
[2:27:51] if our environment becomes too
[2:27:53] predictable, our senses atrophy and with
[2:27:55] them our thinking and creativity.
[2:27:58] Um,
[2:28:00] and you you talk about how art has
[2:28:05] become a part of that predictability.
[2:28:06] What's it costing us to swap out deep
[2:28:09] art for whatever the algorithm serves
[2:28:11] up?
[2:28:12] >> Well, um, what I'm the the title of that
[2:28:16] chapter is disorder the senses. And so
[2:28:19] the idea is
[2:28:22] that when your senses are alive, when
[2:28:25] you're connected to things, when you're
[2:28:27] actually like they're awakened,
[2:28:31] you become creative and the world looks
[2:28:33] a lot differently. And I say that if you
[2:28:37] suddenly were dropped into an an island
[2:28:40] by yourself and your survival now was
[2:28:44] very precarious, your senses would
[2:28:47] suddenly spark to life cuz you're a
[2:28:48] human being. You'd be aware of
[2:28:50] everything. You'd be hearing sounds.
[2:28:52] You'd be figuring out where you could
[2:28:53] get food. You'd become inventive and
[2:28:56] creative because your senses. So your
[2:28:59] senses play a huge role in your in your
[2:29:02] intelligence and your imagination. When
[2:29:04] your senses are closed, when you're not
[2:29:07] paying attention, when you're not
[2:29:08] listening and seeing things, your mind
[2:29:10] and your thoughts become circular and
[2:29:13] framed. Okay?
[2:29:15] So the role of of culture is to I of
[2:29:21] sublime art, I'm not saying all art is
[2:29:23] to kind of shake up your senses so that
[2:29:26] you can see things in different ways and
[2:29:28] get you outside of that kind of circle
[2:29:31] that you're that you're confined in. And
[2:29:33] so
[2:29:35] when our culture is so algorithmic,
[2:29:38] when we are so kind of mesmerized by it
[2:29:41] and it's kind of standardizes our
[2:29:44] experience, our senses kind of go flat.
[2:29:49] It's like um it's like sparkling water
[2:29:51] that's lost all its sparkle. It's
[2:29:53] completely flat, right? And so when our
[2:29:57] senses go flat, our thoughts go flat. We
[2:30:00] think it's the other way around. We
[2:30:01] think thoughts just are we're either
[2:30:03] intelligent or not. But our thoughts
[2:30:05] depend on our senses, how we experience
[2:30:08] the world and how it relates to our
[2:30:10] imagination. And so the danger is is
[2:30:14] that when you become trapped in the kind
[2:30:17] of algorithmic culture, it creates this
[2:30:21] kind of familiarity and comfort that for
[2:30:24] you feels good because it's like a drug
[2:30:26] that keeps you asleep. Everything is
[2:30:29] familiar. It follows the conventional
[2:30:31] patterns. It's fil Yeah, it's filled
[2:30:33] with weird imagery and films, etc., but
[2:30:35] it's still extremely conventional. It
[2:30:38] has the same kind of story lines that
[2:30:41] have, you know, have evolved that are
[2:30:43] entertainment, quote unquote, and it's
[2:30:46] putting you to sleep, right? So if you
[2:30:50] watch something or or or encountered
[2:30:52] something from a different culture from
[2:30:54] a different time period, you're suddenly
[2:30:56] encountering a different way of
[2:30:58] thinking, a different way of telling a
[2:31:00] story, a different structure. So the
[2:31:04] imagery might be all exciting and
[2:31:06] fantastic and Marvel and all these other
[2:31:08] things, but the structure is always the
[2:31:10] same. It's conventional. It's cliche.
[2:31:13] When you see things with a different
[2:31:14] structure, it shakes you up and it puts
[2:31:17] you in a different frame of mind. It
[2:31:19] opens your senses, it opens your
[2:31:21] imagination.
[2:31:23] And I give examples in in in the book of
[2:31:26] artists who do that. A lot of them are,
[2:31:29] I'm afraid, are from different eras, but
[2:31:32] there are contemporary artists who do
[2:31:34] that. And I mentioned James Terrell, an
[2:31:37] amazing amazing visual art, American
[2:31:40] visual artist who creates land art who
[2:31:42] puts you in these spaces where you
[2:31:45] become aware of the sky as simply sky as
[2:31:49] simply a phenomenon without that word
[2:31:51] sky and the cosmos and the universe and
[2:31:54] how small you are. And his land art is
[2:31:57] absolutely mesmerizing and is it is
[2:31:59] fantastic. It is utterly sublime. And
[2:32:02] you don't once you experience one of his
[2:32:05] land arts and you can find them in
[2:32:07] different parts of the world. There's
[2:32:08] one that will be opening in Arizona that
[2:32:11] is not opened yet. It's supposedly
[2:32:13] fantastic. Once you see the sky through
[2:32:16] how he's given it to you, you will never
[2:32:19] look at it again the same way. So I have
[2:32:21] examples of other artists who break up
[2:32:24] the structure and make your senses
[2:32:28] uh experience something differently
[2:32:30] which then has that effect on your mind
[2:32:32] and on your imagination.
[2:32:35] >> You you uh made a playlist, didn't you?
[2:32:38] >> I did.
[2:32:39] >> Did you listen to any of it?
[2:32:40] >> I didn't because I don't think it was I
[2:32:42] didn't see it in the in the PDF, but it
[2:32:45] Oh,
[2:32:45] >> it's in here.
[2:32:46] >> Oh. Oh.
[2:32:47] >> Um
[2:32:48] >> Yeah. So you how did you select the the
[2:32:50] music?
[2:32:51] >> Well, the the playlist is um so
[2:32:57] part of the problem with my book I told
[2:32:59] you is I couldn't take a walk. I
[2:33:01] couldn't hike. So music played a very
[2:33:03] important part in keeping me excited.
[2:33:06] >> Yeah.
[2:33:06] >> And so when I was writing the cosmic
[2:33:08] sublime, I listened to cosmic music.
[2:33:11] Alice Col Train, the wife of John Col
[2:33:13] Train, did a a an album on on cosmic co
[2:33:19] universal consciousness based on things
[2:33:21] that John Cold Train was doing. Charles
[2:33:23] Ives wrote a symphony called the cosmic
[2:33:25] symphony which is really really weird. I
[2:33:28] listen to things like the kind of
[2:33:30] reproduced the sounds of outer space.
[2:33:33] Pagan chapter I listen to recreations of
[2:33:36] ancient Greek music which put me in the
[2:33:39] mood. So the playlist has things from
[2:33:42] the different chapters, but for the
[2:33:44] chapter on the uh on the aesthetic
[2:33:47] sublime,
[2:33:48] I tell the story of one of my favorite
[2:33:52] composers, and it's an acquired taste
[2:33:55] called Alexander Scriyabin, who was a
[2:33:58] great Russian mystic. He had a mystic
[2:34:01] connection to music. He wanted to return
[2:34:03] to the Elucinian mysteries. He wanted to
[2:34:06] create a kind of music that would
[2:34:08] explode your consciousness and make you
[2:34:10] aware like Aldos Huxley of the world at
[2:34:13] large. His last symphony which he died
[2:34:16] before he could create was called the
[2:34:17] mysterium which would take place in
[2:34:19] India and would be an immersive
[2:34:21] experience with a roof opening and
[2:34:24] incense and lights and colors. He was a
[2:34:26] senthesiac who was trying to create
[2:34:29] sesthesic art. So a lot of the music is
[2:34:33] from scriyabin.
[2:34:35] I also have music from other modern
[2:34:37] composers who were trying to kind of
[2:34:39] mess with your sense of cuz music has
[2:34:43] become very formulaic.
[2:34:45] Right? It has a pattern that we're not
[2:34:48] even aware of which is a certain kind of
[2:34:52] sense of rhythm and then dissonance
[2:34:55] that's resolved into consonants
[2:34:57] constantly. So if you listen to music,
[2:34:59] there'll be moments that seem a little
[2:35:00] discordant and then they're resolved and
[2:35:02] that sense of resolution keeps you
[2:35:04] excited, keeps you listening to the
[2:35:06] music. What I'm having here is music
[2:35:09] that doesn't do that, that disturbs your
[2:35:11] sense of flow that that creates a
[2:35:14] different feeling because music is very
[2:35:15] emotional, right? that disturbs that
[2:35:18] that kind of familiarity that you have
[2:35:20] gone and creates a much different mood
[2:35:23] because Griabin his the whole point of
[2:35:25] his music was to create ecstasy. He
[2:35:28] wanted to say how can I create ecstasy
[2:35:30] in music and so that was his whole goal
[2:35:34] >> and so the playlist is music I also
[2:35:38] include things like Bach because he was
[2:35:40] a sublime composer who tried to mess
[2:35:42] with your mind. He tried to create
[2:35:45] voices and patterns that were like I
[2:35:49] can't even explain. They're like moving
[2:35:51] from right to left counterpoint that's
[2:35:53] very intense, very complex like math and
[2:35:56] that has a feeling of infinity like a
[2:35:59] pattern that could go on forever is very
[2:36:01] sublime. So artists that kind of mess
[2:36:05] with how you normally relate to music
[2:36:08] and how you want these familiar patterns
[2:36:11] are what I've used in that playlist. M
[2:36:13] amazing. We we'll link it down below if
[2:36:15] that's okay with you.
[2:36:16] >> Sure. Sure.
[2:36:17] >> Great. Okay. So, how would you introduce
[2:36:20] the next one?
[2:36:22] Well, we're talking about a lot of
[2:36:24] things that are sublime about the world,
[2:36:27] about animals, the cosmos,
[2:36:30] about falling in love with other person.
[2:36:33] But in this chapter, the the dynamical
[2:36:35] sublime, I'm trying to say what is
[2:36:37] sublime about the human animal in
[2:36:40] general.
[2:36:42] And I talk about how we evolved
[2:36:46] in perhaps the most chaotic climactic
[2:36:49] moment in the history of planet Earth.
[2:36:52] The I the ice age that began about
[2:36:54] 800,000 years ago. We weren't homo
[2:36:57] sapiens yet, but it's we were formed in
[2:37:00] that period. And all of the forests that
[2:37:03] we grew up that we emerged from where we
[2:37:05] were in trees and we were protected
[2:37:08] disappeared and it became open grassland
[2:37:10] because as the temperatures cooled there
[2:37:13] was much less rainfall. Okay. So
[2:37:15] everything changed on planet Earth and
[2:37:18] suddenly we found ourselves in these
[2:37:20] open grasslands, these exposed bipedal
[2:37:22] creatures, rather weak and there were
[2:37:24] leopards everywhere and there were very
[2:37:27] dangerous animals and we were extremely
[2:37:30] exposed and we had to adapt and that
[2:37:33] pressure of that violent uh uh
[2:37:37] environment we were now in made us very
[2:37:40] creative. We had to become social. We
[2:37:42] had to form very tight-knit bands that
[2:37:44] could communicate with one another could
[2:37:47] that could hunt large game. To hunt
[2:37:49] large game was a very gutsy proposal
[2:37:53] because it was very dangerous. You had
[2:37:55] to have a band of 12 hunters, whatever,
[2:37:58] all commuting. You had to track the
[2:37:59] animal. You had to be very patient and
[2:38:02] you had to kill it and then and and then
[2:38:04] you had all this food in these pelts,
[2:38:06] etc. And so the pressures of this
[2:38:09] environment
[2:38:11] made us incredibly inventive and
[2:38:13] creative, right? And soon our population
[2:38:16] expanded and we had to move to all
[2:38:18] different parts of planet Earth because
[2:38:21] it was getting too crowded in our areas
[2:38:23] for food sources. We expanded into Asia
[2:38:25] and throughout Europe and all these
[2:38:28] different climates that were much
[2:38:30] colder. We adapted. We found different
[2:38:32] ways of hunting other animals. We
[2:38:35] started creating tools. So we could hunt
[2:38:37] on a high level. Okay. And in that
[2:38:40] crucifix of
[2:38:42] 8 750,000 years, whatever number you
[2:38:45] want to put on it,
[2:38:47] a huge percentage of mammals went
[2:38:49] extinct because they could not adapt
[2:38:52] because it was so dangerous and so
[2:38:55] unfamiliar.
[2:38:56] We emerged as homo sapiens right in that
[2:39:00] period maybe 80,000 years ago. I don't
[2:39:03] know who we exactly date the origin of
[2:39:05] homo sapiens. Um but we emerged out of
[2:39:08] that period. So who we are as an animal
[2:39:12] is a creature that is incredibly
[2:39:15] adaptive right and that is incredibly
[2:39:18] persistent even violent to an extent
[2:39:21] where we don't accept a particular set
[2:39:24] of circumstances. We try to mold them to
[2:39:27] our will. We're very willful. We're very
[2:39:30] persistent and we get to where we want.
[2:39:33] And that power is what um intensified
[2:39:38] our intelligence. It's what skyrocketed
[2:39:40] the evolving of our brain. This ability
[2:39:43] to solve all these different problems.
[2:39:46] So that's who we are. This adaptive,
[2:39:49] very creative, inventive animal that
[2:39:52] depends on pressure, adversity,
[2:39:56] challenges, obstacles, and the presence
[2:39:58] of death. Okay. Now, you go, you fast
[2:40:03] forward to the year 2026
[2:40:06] and I try and say we're part of this
[2:40:09] immense social experiment to change
[2:40:13] human nature, to change the human
[2:40:15] animal.
[2:40:17] Everything is about speed, ease,
[2:40:20] convenience, and comfort. Right?
[2:40:23] We don't want to have any adversity in
[2:40:25] our life. We don't want to have any
[2:40:26] suffering. We don't see the value of
[2:40:28] have any kind of pain. If you have the
[2:40:30] slightest psychological pain, here's a
[2:40:33] drug to treat you. If you have any
[2:40:35] ailments, here's a drug to treat you. We
[2:40:38] don't want to see anybody dying, so we
[2:40:40] march them off into hospitals. We don't
[2:40:42] want to see our animals being killed, so
[2:40:45] we have factory farms. We um we want to
[2:40:48] have an app or something that will solve
[2:40:51] everything for us. If we want to have
[2:40:54] transcendent experiences, here's
[2:40:56] ketamine. You can have it instantly. You
[2:40:58] don't have to meditate for 20 years. You
[2:41:00] can have this. You can have that
[2:41:01] experience right now at a drop of a
[2:41:03] drug. Right? So, and then of course here
[2:41:07] comes AI. You don't have to study
[2:41:08] anything. You don't have to learn how to
[2:41:10] write. Let it write for you. Okay? So,
[2:41:13] we're creating a new kind of human being
[2:41:17] that is not who we were. Okay. All
[2:41:20] right. Maybe it'll succeed. I don't know
[2:41:22] where it will go but a back of my mind
[2:41:25] it will go someplace dangerous and dark
[2:41:28] that if we have too much ease and
[2:41:30] convenience
[2:41:32] our minds kind of rot
[2:41:35] right we don't have to think very deeply
[2:41:37] about anything so why think very deeply
[2:41:39] about anything we don't have to study
[2:41:41] anything very deeply so why study
[2:41:44] anything every deep deeply we don't have
[2:41:46] to learn how to write we don't have to
[2:41:47] go through the seven years of writing a
[2:41:50] book, you know, Claude could write us a
[2:41:53] book in in in a couple of months. Okay?
[2:41:56] So, all that speed and convenience, it's
[2:41:58] also
[2:42:00] wilting our our willpower, our ability
[2:42:02] to persist and to push past moments of
[2:42:05] tedium.
[2:42:07] What are we going to become? We need we
[2:42:09] need to be incredibly inventive. We're
[2:42:11] facing the extinction of our species
[2:42:14] from from climate change. We have to
[2:42:16] become extremely inventive. We have to
[2:42:19] create new cultural forms. We have to
[2:42:21] constantly reinvent ourselves. That's
[2:42:23] what the human animal is. But if we no
[2:42:26] longer have that kind of intelligence,
[2:42:28] that kind of patience, that kind of
[2:42:30] adaptability, that resilience, how are
[2:42:32] we going to function? And so the
[2:42:34] dynamical sublime is returning to that
[2:42:38] animal that we used to be. And what it
[2:42:40] means is suffering, pain, adversity,
[2:42:44] challenge is what you need. You need to
[2:42:47] go towards it. You need to embrace it.
[2:42:50] You need to feel like the suffering and
[2:42:52] the pain in your life is teaching you
[2:42:54] something. It's teaching you patience.
[2:42:56] It's teaching you resilience. It's
[2:42:58] making you have a little bit of
[2:42:59] toughness in life to deal with the
[2:43:01] hardships. It's making you learn things
[2:43:04] and not go for all this ease. And so
[2:43:08] that is the dynamical sublime. It's
[2:43:10] returning to who we used to be and not
[2:43:14] it's almost like
[2:43:16] you have to learn how to resist our your
[2:43:18] own culture, right? You have to learn to
[2:43:21] to say these are things that are bad for
[2:43:24] me. You think that junk food is bad for
[2:43:26] you and it is but the culture is also
[2:43:30] rotting you out. Not not your nutrition,
[2:43:33] not your body, but your mind. You have
[2:43:35] to resist it and you have to say
[2:43:38] challenges and difficulty and doing
[2:43:40] things against the grain and being and
[2:43:43] and embracing obstacles is the way to
[2:43:46] become more human again,
[2:43:52] man. Yeah. I think we all can relate to
[2:43:55] the subtle but pervasive feeling of
[2:43:58] anxiety that comes alongside with just
[2:44:01] having all of your conveniences at your
[2:44:03] doorstep. And that when we don't seek
[2:44:06] out discomfort,
[2:44:08] it will find us. You know, when we seek
[2:44:10] out discomfort, comfort kind of comes to
[2:44:12] us because it's the way we evolve to be.
[2:44:14] And then when we seek out perpetual
[2:44:16] comfort, discomfort becomes the way in
[2:44:18] which we live internally, how how we
[2:44:21] feel. And so you speak about this time
[2:44:23] in our generation of being individuals
[2:44:25] who are untested and um soft, you know,
[2:44:30] and um what are some practical examples
[2:44:33] of way to invite that challenge back in
[2:44:35] to the human animal in in today's day
[2:44:38] and age?
[2:44:39] >> Well, it's it's a simple philosophy that
[2:44:43] you have to adopt. Um it's a philosophy
[2:44:46] I've talked about in my other books.
[2:44:47] It's called amor fati which means love
[2:44:50] of fate. So
[2:44:53] life involves death and nobody wants to
[2:44:57] die. We all want to cling to life but
[2:45:00] it's it's reality that we all have to
[2:45:02] face right and so instead of avoiding
[2:45:06] death instead of avoiding the thought of
[2:45:08] death and we get to that in the next
[2:45:10] chapter you embrace the thought and you
[2:45:13] move towards it and you incorporate it
[2:45:14] into your life. The the idea is that
[2:45:17] pain and discomfort and inconvenience
[2:45:21] is something that you want that you want
[2:45:24] to bring into your life that you do not
[2:45:27] try to avoid. Right? And so that is the
[2:45:31] main thing. And so other things are
[2:45:34] learning the value of slowness. Okay? So
[2:45:39] you want everything fast and easy. I'm
[2:45:42] telling you,
[2:45:45] take up read a a novel. Your
[2:45:48] entertainment has to be so quick and
[2:45:50] easy. You have to get Netflix and get
[2:45:52] that new movie that's going to kind of
[2:45:55] entertain you. Turn off Netflix. Get rid
[2:45:58] of the subscription and read an 800page
[2:46:01] novel, War in Peace, or whatever it is.
[2:46:06] Damn it. You can't go fast with that.
[2:46:07] You have to go slow. You have to read
[2:46:09] page by page. You have to think about
[2:46:11] it. You have to return back. Go, who was
[2:46:13] that character? Your mind is developing
[2:46:16] slowly. Pick up a musical instrument.
[2:46:20] Instead of rushing for your music on on
[2:46:23] Spotify, start playing the piano. That
[2:46:26] will teach you to slow down. That'll
[2:46:28] teach you patience. That'll teach you
[2:46:30] humility. You suck at it in the
[2:46:32] beginning.
[2:46:33] >> Oh, yeah.
[2:46:33] >> But after 6 months, you don't suck so
[2:46:35] much. After a year, you're actually
[2:46:37] playing something that's kind of fun.
[2:46:39] take up chess, right? You can't go fast
[2:46:42] with chess. You can't suddenly speed up
[2:46:44] your moves and have AI show you what to
[2:46:46] do. It's difficult. You're going to
[2:46:48] suffer for a little while, but it'll be
[2:46:50] fun.
[2:46:50] >> Yeah.
[2:46:52] >> Take cooking. Take a meal that's going
[2:46:54] to take 3 hours to prepare. In Indian
[2:46:57] cooking, uh, somebody will spend like an
[2:47:00] entire day cooking one dish and all
[2:47:03] these ingredients. If you have one of
[2:47:05] those Indian dishes that are cooked like
[2:47:07] that slowly with all these different
[2:47:09] spices, it's an experience. Do something
[2:47:12] like that. Slow the down and try
[2:47:15] and get some in tedium into your life in
[2:47:18] a constructive way. That's one thing I
[2:47:21] would tell you to do.
[2:47:24] >> Those are all great and definitely uh
[2:47:27] piano and chess for me are in endlessly
[2:47:30] humbling and a great way to slow down.
[2:47:32] Yeah, I saw your beautiful chess board
[2:47:34] up.
[2:47:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I love it.
[2:47:37] Um, and also I I personally feel the
[2:47:40] call for like a like a bigger physical
[2:47:43] challenge. So, my friends and I are
[2:47:44] talking about maybe doing a Kagwa, which
[2:47:47] I heard you write about.
[2:47:48] >> Oh. Oh.
[2:47:49] >> Uh, which would be a big commitment.
[2:47:51] >> Yeah. Well, um, yeah. Backpacking.
[2:47:54] >> Yeah. That that was a form of therapy
[2:47:56] for a patient who was very neurotic and
[2:47:59] very unhappy. The psychiatrist said,
[2:48:01] "Screw all this talking. We're not
[2:48:03] getting anywhere. I'm going to take you
[2:48:04] up Mount Ankanagua, the highest mountain
[2:48:07] in the southern hemisphere." And it was
[2:48:10] a cosmic experience that changed his
[2:48:12] life. Yeah. Go ahead and do it, man.
[2:48:14] [laughter]
[2:48:14] >> I wish I could join you, but I can't.
[2:48:16] >> Yeah.
[2:48:16] >> Oh, man. Is there a way that you're
[2:48:18] actively seeking that challenge out or
[2:48:20] do you feel like because of the stroke,
[2:48:21] do you do you meet that more? How how do
[2:48:24] you navigate that? Well, it's so
[2:48:25] frustrating for me, but I have a uh I
[2:48:28] have a recumbent bike
[2:48:30] >> cuz I used to mountain bike and I can't
[2:48:33] be on a bike cuz I have no balance.
[2:48:35] >> So, you know what a recumbent bike looks
[2:48:37] like?
[2:48:37] >> I don't.
[2:48:38] >> Um it's like three wheels. It's a
[2:48:40] tricycle and you sit and you pedal like
[2:48:43] this, right?
[2:48:44] >> Yeah.
[2:48:45] >> But I got the lightest weight one I
[2:48:47] could get. Um, and I go up into these
[2:48:50] hills, into these mountains, and I'm
[2:48:53] slow as hell. People are walking past
[2:48:56] me, you know, but it's beautiful and
[2:48:59] it's an incredible challenge. And I go
[2:49:01] up these hills and other cyclists are
[2:49:03] going, "Damn it, how the hell did you
[2:49:05] ever get up here?" Because they can't
[2:49:07] believe that cycling like this while
[2:49:09] you're sitting in a chair.
[2:49:11] >> So that's the challenge I do. And I'm
[2:49:13] looking for like new hills to to to
[2:49:15] climb. Yeah. So I that's the most I can
[2:49:17] do.
[2:49:18] >> It's been eight years and I I I wish I
[2:49:21] could hike. I'm so jealous.
[2:49:25] >> It's uh it's humbling. I can only
[2:49:27] imagine the the challenges that it's
[2:49:30] brought into your life and um also the
[2:49:32] opportunities for gratitude which
[2:49:34] otherwise we just completely forget
[2:49:37] about. Um you write that living in this
[2:49:40] culture you know where all forms of
[2:49:43] resistance are essentially removed
[2:49:46] um that we can all imagine that we are
[2:49:48] amazing and worthy of that we are
[2:49:51] amazing and worthy of agilation when in
[2:49:53] fact we are simply avoidant and
[2:49:54] untested.
[2:49:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
[2:49:56] Well if you if you do like do what I say
[2:49:59] like you you took up chess you would be
[2:50:02] humbled and you would realize god I am
[2:50:04] not amazing. I am not fantastic. I'm
[2:50:06] actually pretty dumb. I don't know. I
[2:50:08] can't. You know, there are people so
[2:50:10] much smarter than I am. When you
[2:50:12] actually take up something that's a
[2:50:14] challenge that tests you, you realize
[2:50:18] who you are. And by overcoming
[2:50:21] that obstacle by spending four years
[2:50:25] becoming a better chess player. Now you
[2:50:27] go, well, but actually I am pretty good
[2:50:29] because I earned it. I didn't say I was
[2:50:32] amazing. It's not like somebody on
[2:50:33] Instagram said I was amazing.
[2:50:36] I feel it inside. I overcame my own
[2:50:39] weaknesses. You know, I I told you I
[2:50:42] didn't think I'd ever get to the end of
[2:50:44] this book. When I got to the end, I was
[2:50:47] like, I I I can be very hard on myself,
[2:50:50] but I could go, God, never forget that
[2:50:52] you actually made it through, that you
[2:50:54] actually accomplished this, cuz it was
[2:50:56] the hardest thing I've ever tried to
[2:50:58] pull off in my life.
[2:50:59] >> Wow. Wow. That's a big statement. Yeah.
[2:51:01] I could only imagine just the writing of
[2:51:04] it. I mean, the research, let alone, you
[2:51:07] know, 300 books and
[2:51:10] it's um it's impressive and it's so
[2:51:12] inspiring. There's something I truly
[2:51:15] feel when someone's devoted their life
[2:51:18] and their energy for years or decades to
[2:51:21] pour themsel and all of themsel into a
[2:51:24] project that uh with, you know, if if
[2:51:28] you didn't, this would just not exist.
[2:51:30] this this collection of ideas and
[2:51:32] stories and and exercises that really
[2:51:35] >> I'm excited for people for it to get in
[2:51:37] the hands of people because I think it's
[2:51:38] going to really revoke that that sense
[2:51:40] of sublime which to me is one of the
[2:51:43] most meaningful things that you could do
[2:51:44] in life is to reenchant the experience
[2:51:47] and and all that's that we're capable
[2:51:49] of. Um so that really moves me. Thank
[2:51:52] you. Yeah,
[2:51:53] >> appreciate it. Sometimes I
[2:51:55] >> I don't know how the book's going to be
[2:51:57] received, so that makes me feel a lot
[2:51:59] better.
[2:51:59] >> Oh, man. It's it was it's incredible.
[2:52:02] Yeah. And it's uh it's really
[2:52:05] >> sweet to see the body of work that
[2:52:06] you've built up until the point and then
[2:52:08] the challenge that you had to surmount
[2:52:10] to then come to writing this.
[2:52:12] >> Um and
[2:52:14] >> it's uh it's got so many of the things I
[2:52:16] love all all coming together.
[2:52:18] >> Oh, good. Um and uh yeah man, you
[2:52:24] you know you you say to kind of wrap
[2:52:26] wrap a bow on that that suffering is our
[2:52:27] spiritual right of passage.
[2:52:29] >> Yeah.
[2:52:30] >> And you wrote that you know with your
[2:52:31] left hand paralyzed.
[2:52:33] >> Yeah.
[2:52:33] >> Um do you believe that these are actual
[2:52:36] rights of passages um meant for us
[2:52:39] somehow or just the meaning we give to
[2:52:42] suff the meaning we give to suffering to
[2:52:44] help lighten the load?
[2:52:47] Well, um, you know, it it's a it's a
[2:52:50] supreme human ability if you can
[2:52:53] transmute
[2:52:54] the pains of life, the separations, the
[2:52:58] deaths that you have to to witness
[2:53:00] into something higher into a kind of
[2:53:04] acceptance into kind of an idea that
[2:53:06] that this is what it means to be born
[2:53:08] and that I'm part of a process, part of
[2:53:10] a cycle. That is to me the ultimate
[2:53:14] sublime power in the universe that you
[2:53:17] can take the worst that life gives you.
[2:53:20] The fact that your life is going to end
[2:53:21] it and you transmute it into a feeling
[2:53:24] of of something sublime and powerful and
[2:53:28] beautiful and meaningful is like the
[2:53:31] ultimate power that that we can have.
[2:53:34] And um
[2:53:36] you know
[2:53:38] suffering
[2:53:40] uh you know like losing someone close to
[2:53:43] you is probably in some ways the highest
[2:53:48] form of suffering because
[2:53:51] when you die you die and then you're
[2:53:53] gone, right? And it's painful but then
[2:53:56] it's over. But the people you've left
[2:53:58] behind have this big gaping hole inside
[2:54:01] themselves and it can be a source of
[2:54:03] very deep depression. Particularly if
[2:54:05] it's like your parent or your loved one
[2:54:08] or even a pet. I've had Brutus, my cat
[2:54:11] who lived to 19 who saw me through five
[2:54:14] books. When he died, I was so
[2:54:16] distraught. I love that animal so much.
[2:54:19] Okay. But if you and this is going into
[2:54:23] the next chapter a bit, but if you can
[2:54:25] take that and kind of accept it and
[2:54:28] accept that this is all a part of life
[2:54:31] and everything dies and everybody around
[2:54:34] you will die. And if it's the spark of
[2:54:36] like compassion and empathy for for the
[2:54:39] fate of all living things, then that
[2:54:42] worst experience of living through the
[2:54:44] death of someone can translate into
[2:54:47] something very meaningful and very
[2:54:49] powerful. And to me, in my way of
[2:54:52] thinking, that is kind of the ultimate
[2:54:54] form of sublime.
[2:54:57] >> It's counterintuitive, right? We I think
[2:55:00] would largely associate the sublime with
[2:55:02] the pleasant experiences that would
[2:55:04] evoke that. And you're saying
[2:55:06] potentially the most the strongest form
[2:55:09] of evoking the sublime is something that
[2:55:11] is the most pain suffering. Yeah.
[2:55:16] Because it's it's calling up something
[2:55:19] in you that's that's very primal and
[2:55:22] very human and it's make it's awakening
[2:55:25] you. So, we've been talking about how
[2:55:28] we're sleepwalking through life, how
[2:55:29] we're not aware of anything.
[2:55:33] Suffering and pain makes you very Now,
[2:55:35] it can crush you. So, don't get me
[2:55:37] wrong, it's not always a sublime
[2:55:39] experience. Suffering and pain can
[2:55:41] completely destroy your willpower and
[2:55:43] make you a crippled individual for your
[2:55:46] whole life. But I'm trying to talk to
[2:55:48] you of a different way of approaching
[2:55:50] suffering and pain so it doesn't
[2:55:52] overwhelm you. So what happens when
[2:55:54] people are avoidant when they don't want
[2:55:57] when everything has to be convenient and
[2:55:58] easy
[2:56:00] when that moment arrives where they have
[2:56:02] to face death or their spouse dies or
[2:56:05] their parent dies they have no no
[2:56:07] internal resources to handle it and it
[2:56:10] does crush them and it does overwhelm
[2:56:11] them. But if you train yourself to use
[2:56:14] these moments as ways of acceptance of
[2:56:18] seeing that this is just a part of life
[2:56:19] this is everything is impermanent
[2:56:22] nothing lasts then then it's not it
[2:56:26] becomes into something else you are
[2:56:28] connecting look stars in the in the sky
[2:56:31] die they're born and they die you know
[2:56:34] that's entropy it's a part of the
[2:56:36] universe okay so death is like
[2:56:39] connecting you to everything in the
[2:56:41] universe I know I'm getting to the other
[2:56:42] chapter here.
[2:56:43] >> We're we're we're here. [laughter] We're
[2:56:45] here. Death has arrived in the
[2:56:47] conversation.
[2:56:49] >> Well, well, the last chapter is is so if
[2:56:52] there were doors that are that you're
[2:56:54] looking through,
[2:56:56] death is the last door and you're
[2:56:58] peering through it and you're looking at
[2:57:01] the darkness on the other side and the
[2:57:03] heaviness on the other side. That is the
[2:57:06] opposite of life. And when you peer
[2:57:08] through that door, it's not just death.
[2:57:11] is a thought I can call. Yeah, I'm going
[2:57:14] to die one day. No, when you peer
[2:57:16] through that door, you feel that
[2:57:18] heaviness. You feel it invading your
[2:57:20] body. You feel that death is inside of
[2:57:23] you. It's no longer this thought that
[2:57:25] will occur in 30, 40, 10 years or
[2:57:29] whatever. It's inside of you now. It's
[2:57:31] something physical and visceral. And you
[2:57:34] look at it and you feel the silence, the
[2:57:36] emptiness, the darkness that is eternal.
[2:57:39] And it has a very powerful effect on
[2:57:41] your physiology and neurology like it
[2:57:44] did on me. I couldn't look at the world
[2:57:46] afterwards, right? I had to go through
[2:57:50] that practically go through that door
[2:57:51] and be pulled back. You don't have to go
[2:57:54] through that door and be pulled back.
[2:57:56] You can voyage up to there. And you can
[2:57:58] encounter death on a much deeper level
[2:58:01] than just a thought.
[2:58:03] And I describe in the book the
[2:58:06] experiences of people who've had
[2:58:07] near-death experiences.
[2:58:09] And one gentleman, my favorite story,
[2:58:12] and there, John Ren Lewis, who was
[2:58:15] traveling in Thailand and was poisoned
[2:58:18] with drugs to put him to sleep so he
[2:58:20] could be robbed. And he nearly died.
[2:58:24] And he woke up with this feeling of
[2:58:28] suddenly the world looked like he was a
[2:58:29] newborn baby. Everything was beautiful,
[2:58:32] even this ugly, disgusting, putrid
[2:58:34] hospital room that he was in. The smells
[2:58:37] were magnificent, right? What is this?
[2:58:40] What happened to me? He realizes he had
[2:58:42] a near-death experience. And for the
[2:58:44] rest of his life, and the sensation
[2:58:46] keeps coming back, and he says, I'm
[2:58:49] going to try and teach humanity how to
[2:58:52] have this kind of relationship to death
[2:58:54] because I think it will save us in the
[2:58:56] end. He devoted the last 20 years of his
[2:58:59] life to that. He never quite got to the
[2:59:02] end where he could write about it and
[2:59:04] describe how to do it. But he leaves
[2:59:05] enough traces that
[2:59:09] converting our fear of death into a
[2:59:11] visceral experience of it could
[2:59:13] transform all of us. Because
[2:59:17] people who are aggressive and
[2:59:18] manipulative and angry, a lot of it
[2:59:21] comes from their repression of death. It
[2:59:23] comes from a deep deep deep wells of
[2:59:26] anxiety, right? And their way of getting
[2:59:29] away from death is to hurt other people
[2:59:31] is to inflict pain. To make other people
[2:59:33] die so that they don't so they feel more
[2:59:36] distant from death. We make humanity
[2:59:39] accept our mortality and go closer to
[2:59:42] it. It would transform the world. I'm
[2:59:44] not saying it would be paradise or
[2:59:46] utopia, but it would have a very
[2:59:48] powerful effect. So, I'm trying to and
[2:59:51] at the end of the chapter, the end of
[2:59:52] the book, I have an exercise because
[2:59:55] each chapter ends with exercises in
[2:59:58] which I literally try to have you lie
[3:00:00] down on the ground and go through your
[3:00:02] own death and it's based on my own
[3:00:05] experience and how I felt and it's based
[3:00:07] on all my research how literally the
[3:00:10] process of dying feels and how the brain
[3:00:14] is dying and as the brain dies all these
[3:00:17] sensations come to you. A lot of it
[3:00:20] described in the Tibetan book of the
[3:00:22] dead in the 11th chapter about the
[3:00:25] Bardau and the luminous consciousness
[3:00:27] that you can have at the moment of
[3:00:29] death. I'm trying to lead you through
[3:00:31] that. I'm not saying it's the ultimate
[3:00:33] exercise. It's my attempt, but I'm
[3:00:36] trying to take you so that you can have
[3:00:38] some of that experience while you're
[3:00:40] alive and and it could have a very
[3:00:42] powerful effect on you.
[3:00:46] >> Yeah. You mentioned earlier how much we
[3:00:48] are shielded from the reality of death.
[3:00:50] We turn it into cartoons. We our dogs
[3:00:53] and family members that you know die
[3:00:54] behind closed doors and um the uh so so
[3:01:00] let's just keep diving deeper here into
[3:01:03] the afterlife NDE's death itself. Yeah,
[3:01:07] >> I um
[3:01:11] I found the the stories you recounted
[3:01:13] and then also your own personal
[3:01:15] near-death experience
[3:01:17] illuminating uh because
[3:01:22] one of the biggest questions I feel like
[3:01:24] people have on spiritual quests and what
[3:01:26] religions are built upon is what happens
[3:01:29] after we die? And of course I'm not
[3:01:32] expecting you to to deliver the answer
[3:01:35] final final message here. Um, but it is
[3:01:38] interesting that we have reports of
[3:01:39] people that have literally been dead and
[3:01:41] come back and they share things and so
[3:01:44] what what did you find in researching
[3:01:46] the NDEs that was particularly evocative
[3:01:49] and you
[3:01:51] >> okay so um we think of consciousness as
[3:01:56] located in the brain right
[3:01:58] >> that it's an organ that's physical
[3:02:01] that's material and that it's there in
[3:02:02] the brain right so we the stories I have
[3:02:06] and There many more that I didn't
[3:02:08] include are people
[3:02:11] whose brains are not functioning.
[3:02:14] There's one famous story of Pamela Lowry
[3:02:17] Reynolds who is put into a state of
[3:02:19] close to death as possible so that
[3:02:22] somebody can surgically operate on her
[3:02:24] brain. Right? So everything is shut
[3:02:27] down. She can't hear. She can't see
[3:02:28] anything. And she's literally as close
[3:02:31] to a state of death as you could put
[3:02:32] somebody in. And yet in her death, in
[3:02:36] her coma, in this unconsciousness, she
[3:02:39] sees and experiences everything going on
[3:02:42] in the room as they're operating on her.
[3:02:44] And when she later relates it to the
[3:02:46] doctors, they're like, "There's no way
[3:02:48] you could know what music we were
[3:02:49] playing. There's no way you could have
[3:02:51] seen the instruments they were using.
[3:02:53] There's no way you could have heard the
[3:02:54] conversations going on in that operating
[3:02:56] room. You are unconscious.
[3:02:59] So what is it?" You know, some people
[3:03:02] have tried to rationally explain that
[3:03:03] story because it's it's one of the most
[3:03:06] con conundrums that rationalists and
[3:03:08] materialists struggle to try and explain
[3:03:10] away. I'm not saying that her
[3:03:14] descriptions of of of God and seeing
[3:03:17] dead people is is real. I don't know.
[3:03:20] Okay? Because I I I didn't have that
[3:03:22] experience. But what I can say is it
[3:03:25] presents a puzzle. If our consciousness
[3:03:28] is in our brains and yet the brain is
[3:03:30] dead and she is experiencing things,
[3:03:34] what is she experiencing?
[3:03:36] It opens up the question at least that
[3:03:40] consciousness isn't necessarily locked
[3:03:42] inside of our brain that maybe
[3:03:45] consciousness is something that exists
[3:03:47] outside that is something that we are
[3:03:50] picking up that's that pervades the
[3:03:52] universe. It's called pans psychism. And
[3:03:55] they're famous scientists who
[3:03:56] neuroscientists who believe in it who
[3:03:58] feel it's very serious that the and even
[3:04:01] physicists that there's a consciousness
[3:04:03] in the universe and that we are just
[3:04:05] simply trans we're it's transmitting to
[3:04:08] us and we're picking up these signals
[3:04:10] and so when the brain is dead there's
[3:04:13] still those signals going on and the
[3:04:15] person who is not yet dead is still
[3:04:16] picking them up. It makes us question
[3:04:19] our whole relationship to consciousness
[3:04:21] itself. And I have a story of a blind
[3:04:24] woman was a near-death experience and
[3:04:28] she suddenly sees things, right? And she
[3:04:31] can describe what she sees and it's
[3:04:34] pretty accurate, right? And yet the rest
[3:04:36] of her life she has no vision. She's
[3:04:38] born blind. She's completely blind. But
[3:04:41] for 5 minutes or whatever long it
[3:04:43] lasted, she was seeing things.
[3:04:46] How do you explain that? It's vision
[3:04:49] without a brain. It's like the mind can
[3:04:52] see things without the brain
[3:04:54] functioning.
[3:04:56] I'm just saying it opens up questions
[3:04:58] and it makes us rethink our rigid ideas
[3:05:02] of materialism.
[3:05:05] Right? And I have earlier in the book a
[3:05:08] story of a of a famous professor at UCLA
[3:05:13] who tried to solve the problem of
[3:05:15] obsessivecompulsive disorder OCD.
[3:05:18] He created a form of therapy that
[3:05:21] trained patients to analyze their own
[3:05:24] fears and and do activities that would
[3:05:28] calm them down. He took brain scans
[3:05:31] before and after his therapy and the
[3:05:34] brain scans after showed changes in
[3:05:37] their brain and he decided your thoughts
[3:05:41] can literally alter your brain and the
[3:05:45] wiring of your brain. So the invisible,
[3:05:47] the immaterial, your thoughts can affect
[3:05:50] the material.
[3:05:52] These are kind of things that should
[3:05:53] make us question our very rigid ideas of
[3:05:56] what the univer about the world is that
[3:05:58] we live in.
[3:06:00] Yeah. I've again been fortunate to speak
[3:06:03] to both sides of materialist
[3:06:06] reductionists and then also pansychist
[3:06:08] idealists
[3:06:10] and it's um it's so fascinating that we
[3:06:13] just have access to all these
[3:06:15] alternative over 400 different theories
[3:06:17] of consciousness.
[3:06:18] >> Yeah. And um certainly these NDE cases
[3:06:23] provide some sort of insight because
[3:06:25] there are themes that you can extract
[3:06:27] from them and similarities of
[3:06:29] >> uh things you experience um when people
[3:06:32] are clinically dead for minutes on end.
[3:06:35] Um we had one lady Anita Morjani on the
[3:06:37] podcast.
[3:06:38] >> Oh, she's amazing.
[3:06:39] >> She's amazing. Yeah.
[3:06:40] >> Amazing story. The the image of the of
[3:06:42] the warehouse
[3:06:43] >> Yeah.
[3:06:44] >> is one of the most beautiful things I've
[3:06:46] ever read on this. I wanted to include
[3:06:47] her in it, but for some reason I didn't.
[3:06:49] >> Yeah.
[3:06:49] >> But Yeah.
[3:06:50] >> Yeah. No, it's so And that they had that
[3:06:52] analogy of like the the flashlight
[3:06:54] versus the warehouse of consciousness.
[3:06:57] >> Explain that to explain it if you can
[3:06:58] cuz it's a great
[3:07:00] >> Yeah. Well, it maps on exactly with what
[3:07:02] you were saying earlier, right? And
[3:07:04] Huxley's reduction valve that like
[3:07:06] normal waking consciousness is like a
[3:07:07] flashlight of awareness. We're pointing
[3:07:09] at from point A to point B. In the
[3:07:11] deeper meditative states, you can
[3:07:12] diffuse that awareness, then dissolve
[3:07:15] the sense of individuality within your
[3:07:17] awareness, but you can keep widening
[3:07:20] that scope of context in her case in her
[3:07:22] in her case where she was dead. Um, and
[3:07:26] brought back to life. um that she like
[3:07:30] went to this warehouse analogy where it
[3:07:32] wasn't a flashlight. It wasn't just this
[3:07:34] room, but a much vaster where there's no
[3:07:36] boundaries of her consciousness and had
[3:07:39] experiences with people that had passed
[3:07:41] and um
[3:07:43] >> she cured herself of cancer.
[3:07:44] >> Mhm. Came back. Okay.
[3:07:46] >> Yeah. So, it's like the flashlight is
[3:07:47] our normal consciousness where we just
[3:07:49] see little pinpoints.
[3:07:51] >> She said it's like all the lights are
[3:07:53] turned on. You see everything in the
[3:07:55] warehouse. You see all everything going
[3:07:57] on. Yeah.
[3:07:58] >> Right. And she had that for brief
[3:08:00] moments in her NDE. What does that mean?
[3:08:03] It means we're normally just walking
[3:08:04] around with our flashlights.
[3:08:06] >> Mhm.
[3:08:07] >> Yeah. It uh I I I appreciate the
[3:08:11] humility epistemically at least when cuz
[3:08:13] it's very for me it's very exciting to
[3:08:16] then jump to okay so consciousness is
[3:08:18] fundamental and then you're like okay
[3:08:20] what does that really mean? Um but
[3:08:22] nonetheless we need to have the
[3:08:23] conversation of we don't know what we
[3:08:25] don't know. We don't know
[3:08:26] >> and we don't have a viable explanation
[3:08:29] for why consciousness would be emergent
[3:08:31] from matter. Um so
[3:08:33] >> let's keep exploring.
[3:08:34] >> Yeah, we can't explain how life emerged
[3:08:36] from from inorganic material. We have no
[3:08:39] explanation for how the universe we're
[3:08:41] surrounded by mysteries.
[3:08:43] >> So you give the example of walking
[3:08:46] through your own visualization of your
[3:08:48] own death.
[3:08:49] >> How do you think that the contemplation
[3:08:51] of your own mortality changes how you
[3:08:53] live? You know, I think that we've
[3:08:56] shared a lot of words throughout this
[3:08:57] whole podcast.
[3:08:58] >> Um, one of the most I just find that
[3:09:01] death always brings this immediiacy to
[3:09:03] life, you know, and you shared it as
[3:09:04] well in your stroke where it's like,
[3:09:06] >> wo, like the sensory experience becomes
[3:09:09] way more vivid. And
[3:09:11] >> so, talk to me about the the
[3:09:13] relationship there between death and
[3:09:14] life and and how uh important it is for
[3:09:17] us to reconnect with that reality.
[3:09:20] >> Well, it it has uh several aspects. So,
[3:09:24] um, you know, mountain climbers,
[3:09:27] uh, get addicted to the sensation where
[3:09:30] they're climbing up a mountain and they
[3:09:32] can look back and there's abyss behind
[3:09:33] them. They could die at any moment. They
[3:09:35] can fall and it's real. And that sense
[3:09:38] of being on the edge between life and
[3:09:41] death
[3:09:43] intensifies their experience of life to
[3:09:45] a very high degree. You don't have to be
[3:09:47] a mountain climber. You are continually
[3:09:50] walking on that edge. Your body is very
[3:09:53] fragile. At any moment, things could
[3:09:55] stop functioning. You can die tomorrow.
[3:09:58] So, visualize yourself walking on that
[3:10:01] edge. Literally, here's a cliff. You're
[3:10:04] walking on the edge. You're alive. And
[3:10:06] there is death, right? And that sense of
[3:10:09] walking along a cliff. Ah, wow. It kind
[3:10:13] of wakes you up. It makes every moment
[3:10:15] of life that much more intense. So you
[3:10:18] can be aware of the fragility of your
[3:10:21] body and it doesn't have to make you
[3:10:23] paranoid and nervous and anxious and it
[3:10:25] can actually make you every moment
[3:10:28] heightened and that much more intense.
[3:10:31] And then
[3:10:33] when I had my stroke, I was like
[3:10:36] suddenly very helpless and vulnerable
[3:10:39] and dependent. And I'm a very
[3:10:41] independent person. And in the
[3:10:43] aftermath, one effect on me was an
[3:10:47] incredible amount of compassion
[3:10:50] for other people who feel defenseless,
[3:10:53] who feel weak and vulnerable, who may
[3:10:56] not have enough money to to sustain them
[3:10:58] during the day, who have other ailments
[3:11:00] that are making them to to all kinds of
[3:11:03] people who are feeling weak and
[3:11:05] dependent. And so the sense of your own
[3:11:09] mortality
[3:11:11] should make you awaken to the fact that
[3:11:13] everybody is going through the same
[3:11:15] thing. And maybe you're disconnected
[3:11:18] from them. Maybe it's a parent who you
[3:11:20] who kind of irritates you and you've
[3:11:22] grown alienated from. But if you sit
[3:11:25] there and you focus on their mortality
[3:11:27] and their anxiety about it and how it's
[3:11:30] warping them and how they have these
[3:11:31] fears, it can humanize them to you to
[3:11:34] the degree that maybe it can melt some
[3:11:37] of your defensiveness and some of the
[3:11:39] barriers between you. So a closeness to
[3:11:42] death can create a kind of now it can
[3:11:47] have the opposite effect. There are
[3:11:49] sadists like that. But it should have
[3:11:52] the effect of being aware of the
[3:11:54] mortality of everyone and kind of
[3:11:57] opening up a deep and wide compassion
[3:12:00] for all creatures that die including
[3:12:02] animals. Right? So try to imagine
[3:12:08] I think it's 80 billion homo sapiens
[3:12:11] that have lived and have died. Right?
[3:12:14] They went through the same thing that
[3:12:15] you're going through now. And they met
[3:12:17] death and it was painful. And all of
[3:12:20] them went through that. And it should
[3:12:22] give you a sense of a deep deep
[3:12:25] connection to all the ancestor behind
[3:12:27] us, to all the drama that disappeared
[3:12:29] with them, to all the pain and suffering
[3:12:31] that people have had. And so it's not
[3:12:34] just you. It's not just about you and
[3:12:36] your minuscule little problems and
[3:12:39] worries and anxieties. It's universal.
[3:12:42] Everybody is going through it. It's a
[3:12:44] way to break up your own ego because you
[3:12:47] think that oh only I have pain, only I
[3:12:49] am suffering, oh my life is so terrible,
[3:12:51] blah blah blah blah blah blah. No,
[3:12:53] people are going through much worse
[3:12:55] things and everybody is facing death. So
[3:12:57] it it kind of gives you a sense of
[3:12:59] something much larger than your own
[3:13:01] pain.
[3:13:03] I think what you just shared in the book
[3:13:05] at large has this amazing ability to
[3:13:07] just shake you awake, you know, like
[3:13:10] realize you're alive and what a gift it
[3:13:12] is. You ended with this Japanese poet.
[3:13:15] Yeah. Why?
[3:13:17] Well, I I am uh deeply imbued in in
[3:13:22] Japanese culture as much as a western
[3:13:24] can because I love particularly Zen
[3:13:27] Buddhism, but everything about Japanese
[3:13:29] culture that intrigues me. And
[3:13:32] a major part of of Zen and Buddhism is
[3:13:35] the impermanence of everything that
[3:13:37] exists to the point where you don't even
[3:13:40] see that there are any forms. Everything
[3:13:42] is in the process of dissolving. So
[3:13:45] there's nothing actually real out there.
[3:13:47] Only impermanence is real. And so it's a
[3:13:50] story of a Japanese poet uh who wrote
[3:13:53] mostly haiku named Issa Kobayashi Issa.
[3:13:57] Lived at the turn of the 19th century.
[3:13:59] And his life was just endless pain and
[3:14:02] suffering. His mother dying. his father
[3:14:04] remarrying, his stepmother torturing
[3:14:06] him, not letting him read, not letting
[3:14:08] him write, being shipped off to Ido,
[3:14:11] Tokyo, Tokyo back then, alone and and
[3:14:14] trying to make it through life and being
[3:14:16] homeless and hungry and then wandering
[3:14:19] around Japan as a pilgrim, begging for
[3:14:22] food and writing his poetry. And then
[3:14:25] his father died and then he marries
[3:14:28] a series of all of his children die
[3:14:30] after a few months. one daughter that he
[3:14:32] loves deeply survives to two years and
[3:14:35] then she dies. That his wife gives child
[3:14:38] birth and dies in childirth and then the
[3:14:40] baby dies on and on and on and on. The
[3:14:44] kind of experiences of rejection from
[3:14:47] parents of alone, of being homeless, of
[3:14:50] being hungry that would a human
[3:14:53] being. And yet he has this joyful
[3:14:56] Buddhistic belief in the impermanence of
[3:14:59] life is the grace of life. and I'm going
[3:15:02] to embrace it in every form. And so he
[3:15:04] falls in love with all the marginalized
[3:15:07] creatures of the world, the snails, the
[3:15:10] birds that nobody throws pebbles on, but
[3:15:12] that nobody loves like pigeons,
[3:15:15] prostitutes, and criminals and homeless
[3:15:17] people. He loves them more because they
[3:15:20] know about impermanence. and being close
[3:15:22] to impermanence, being close to
[3:15:24] everything. He grew up in an area of
[3:15:26] Japan that was alpine, that was snow for
[3:15:31] half the year. There was no life, no
[3:15:34] sounds, no birds, no insects, just snow
[3:15:38] and silence. And then spring comes and
[3:15:41] suddenly there's green everywhere and
[3:15:43] there's butterflies and there's insects
[3:15:45] and there's birds flying around. It was
[3:15:47] like that became the model of his life.
[3:15:49] there's always this process of death
[3:15:52] covering so much of of of people's
[3:15:54] experience. And so he embraced the
[3:15:56] impermanence of life. And it even after
[3:16:00] his daughter died, which was the worst
[3:16:01] of all, he felt the pain of losing
[3:16:04] someone that close, but he still came
[3:16:07] back to that moment of when you embrace
[3:16:09] the impermanence. Life has this beauty
[3:16:12] and this intensity and this stillness to
[3:16:14] it that's absolutely essential. and he
[3:16:16] was a Buddhist so it was connected to
[3:16:18] his religious beliefs but it's the sense
[3:16:21] that when somebody dies it's not about
[3:16:26] you it's not about your pain your grief
[3:16:29] your loneliness it's about how it's a
[3:16:32] universal experience as I said stars are
[3:16:35] born and stars die so it's a way of
[3:16:38] saying that you approach death as this
[3:16:41] universal phenomena that you accept and
[3:16:44] that opens you up to all of life and to
[3:16:47] all of creation.
[3:16:52] >> You've said that this is potentially
[3:16:55] your last big book.
[3:16:56] >> Uh yeah. Is that right? I don't think I
[3:17:00] could do another book like that cuz man,
[3:17:01] I'm I'm I'm heading into my late 60s. I
[3:17:04] don't have my energy. I don't have the
[3:17:07] powers I used to have. I had a stroke.
[3:17:10] I don't It might be my swan song, but I
[3:17:13] will write shorter books. And I'm I'm
[3:17:15] looking at other projects that I will
[3:17:17] do. I'm not finished writing.
[3:17:18] >> Yeah.
[3:17:19] >> I don't think my body can withstand
[3:17:21] another project like this.
[3:17:25] >> It's uh I know I've shared, but I really
[3:17:27] do think it's so special what you've
[3:17:29] become a conduit for and all the uh in
[3:17:32] everything that you've shared. If
[3:17:35] somebody at the end of this conversation
[3:17:37] was to leave this conversation as they
[3:17:39] will, walk back into the rest of their
[3:17:40] life and you wanted them to carry one
[3:17:44] thing with them and you had 60 seconds
[3:17:46] to share, what would that be?
[3:17:49] Well, it's it's to make you feel like
[3:17:53] you're being alive and being conscious
[3:17:58] is not something that you just go around
[3:18:00] and don't think about. I want you to go
[3:18:03] and be deeply present with the
[3:18:07] experience of the planet Earth that you
[3:18:09] are on and how strange and weird and
[3:18:13] marvelous it is to see life on this
[3:18:16] planet that there are probably no other
[3:18:18] maybe there may not be any other planet
[3:18:20] in the universe that has life. You were
[3:18:23] gifted this thing by this insane chain
[3:18:25] of circumstances.
[3:18:27] It's one of a kind. It's one experience
[3:18:29] that you have. You only live once to to
[3:18:32] coin a phrase. So just re think about it
[3:18:36] deeply and awaken yourself. The chapter
[3:18:39] the title of chapter 2 which to me is
[3:18:42] sums everything up is awaken to the
[3:18:45] strangeness of being alive. It is
[3:18:47] strange to be alive. It is not something
[3:18:50] you you just take for granted. It's very
[3:18:53] strange to be conscious. It's very
[3:18:55] strange to be wandering around with
[3:18:56] other species and other humans.
[3:18:59] Think about that and and and internalize
[3:19:02] that and not don't be asleep, but awaken
[3:19:05] to this very weird reality of what you
[3:19:08] were born into.
[3:19:10] That's about the best I could do.
[3:19:12] [laughter]
[3:19:13] >> Five five 10 out of 10.
[3:19:15] >> Okay. Okay.
[3:19:17] >> Robert, thank you so much for sharing
[3:19:19] your your heart with us today. And
[3:19:21] >> thank you so much for having me.
[3:19:22] >> Yeah, it's been an absolute joy. Okay.
[3:19:24] >> I really really appreciate um your time,
[3:19:26] your energy, and the care and love and
[3:19:29] devotion you put into the law of
[3:19:30] sublime, which is now available to
[3:19:32] order. And we'll leave it
[3:19:33] >> pre-order. It'll be out on November
[3:19:35] 10th.
[3:19:35] >> Yeah. By the time this release, it
[3:19:37] should be it should be out or just
[3:19:39] about. And um
[3:19:42] >> amazing work, man. Thank you. So, is
[3:19:44] there anything else on your heart that
[3:19:44] you want to share before we wrap up?
[3:19:46] >> Uh I don't think so. I think I we
[3:19:49] covered a lot and I really appreciate
[3:19:50] that.
[3:19:51] >> Yeah. I think I think I think that's
[3:19:53] pretty much it.
[3:19:54] >> Amazing. Thank you, Robert.
[3:19:55] >> Thank you so much for having me. I
[3:19:57] really enjoyed it.
[3:19:57] >> Yeah, likewise. All right, everyone.
[3:19:59] Until next time, be well.
[3:20:02] [music]
[3:20:12] [music]