Transcript
[0:03] [music]
[0:10] [music]
[0:18] [music]
[0:19] Sometimes you don't know
[0:22] which way [music] you should go.
[0:26] Sometimes you can't see
[0:29] who you're [music] meant to be.
[0:34] Every time the sun rises,
[0:38] every time the moonlight shines,
[0:41] you say I see how
[0:44] I find I try.
[0:48] Leave my die.
[0:51] Breathe my sun.
[0:54] Smile. I cry.
[0:58] I try. I try.
[1:01] I try try. [music]
[1:03] I try.
[1:04] I try try. I try try try.
[1:08] I try try try.
[1:14] Perfect.
[1:21] [music]
[1:31] [music]
[1:36] [music]
[1:41] >> Sometimes you [music and singing] don't
[1:42] know.
[1:48] Hello everyone and welcome. It's so
[1:52] wonderful to be here together with so
[1:54] many of you dear friends. Um you are
[1:58] joining the inner change for systems
[2:00] change online event um with Kate
[2:04] Rayworth and brother Faplin. Um we're
[2:08] yeah we're really grateful to you all
[2:10] for joining us um for this wonderful
[2:12] event. Um we're going to be together for
[2:15] 1 hour and 15 minutes al together. Um
[2:18] and we've got such a inspiring
[2:21] discussion and experience planned. Um
[2:25] thank you all those joining on Zoom who
[2:27] are saying hello in the chat box. It's
[2:29] beautiful to see you joining us from all
[2:31] over the world. And thank you also those
[2:34] joining the live stream on YouTube. Um
[2:37] welcome to everyone. Um in a moment
[2:40] we're going to close the chat box on
[2:42] Zoom um because we're going to arrive
[2:45] together at this event with a guided
[2:48] meditation practice just a short
[2:50] grounding guided meditation practice
[2:52] from dear brother Faplin. So without
[2:55] further ado I will hand over to you dear
[2:57] brother.
[3:01] Thank you so much, Flo. Um, just got to
[3:05] make the mouse accessible so that I can
[3:09] switch on
[3:12] uh this right sound setting.
[3:16] Oops.
[3:16] >> You've turned off your video, brother.
[3:18] >> I have.
[3:20] >> You're back.
[3:22] >> And and off again. Here we go. All
[3:24] right. Original sound
[3:27] so that we can hear the bell. So dear
[3:30] friends, thank you so much for
[3:34] being here in this moment.
[3:38] Let's just feel what it's like to be
[3:42] here in our bodies,
[3:45] in our sensations
[3:51] all together.
[3:55] You might like to just bring your
[3:57] attention to your contact with the chair
[4:02] cushion, the ground.
[4:05] Just feel your orientation in space.
[4:07] Feel the up down axis.
[4:11] Feel the mass of mother earth supporting
[4:14] us,
[4:18] connecting us.
[4:23] And just notice
[4:25] the feeling of the inb breath,
[4:33] the feeling of the outreath
[4:38] as it flows
[4:41] naturally.
[4:45] Just enjoying the sensations of the inb
[4:49] breath and the outreath.
[4:58] We can also allow our minds to be guided
[5:04] back into the present moment
[5:08] uh by gluing ourselves to the sound of
[5:10] the bell. We let the sound of the bell
[5:14] and sensations of the breath
[5:17] become our whole shared world.
[5:29] [bell]
[5:31] [music]
[5:48] >> [bell and music]
[6:05] [bell]
[6:11] [bell and music]
[6:28] >> Breathing in,
[6:30] we can feel
[6:33] life in every cell of our body.
[6:38] Breathing out,
[6:40] we allow ourselves to enjoy
[6:43] the feeling of being alive.
[6:47] The thrum and the hum of life in every
[6:50] cell.
[7:04] Breathing in. Just allowing ourselves to
[7:08] settle in, to sink in to that sensation
[7:12] of life in our body.
[7:17] Breathing out.
[7:20] Just enjoying that feeling of sinking
[7:24] in,
[7:26] settling.
[7:31] There might have been a lot of things
[7:32] going on in our day in the moments
[7:34] before.
[7:37] Right now, we're just allowing our whole
[7:40] being to arrive.
[7:46] Breathing in.
[7:50] I feel that I have arrived
[7:56] in the here and the now.
[8:00] Breathing out.
[8:02] I enjoy
[8:04] the feeling of being at home
[8:08] in the here and the now.
[8:18] Thank you everyone. I'm going to hand
[8:21] back to Flo. Um and we can keep sinking
[8:26] in throughout the session. It might uh
[8:28] we might have some concepts and some
[8:30] thoughts and some ideas. We might get
[8:32] very stimulated but all the time we can
[8:35] just stay connected to the breath to the
[8:38] sensation of settling in arriving in
[8:41] every moment.
[8:44] Thank you.
[8:47] >> Thank you dear brother Fepllin um for
[8:51] that beautiful practice and reminder to
[8:54] be here now together. Um and welcome
[8:57] again everyone um to this online event
[9:00] in a change for systems change with Kate
[9:03] Rayworth and brother Faplin who you just
[9:05] heard from with that guided practice. Um
[9:09] so I'm just going to share a little bit
[9:10] about what we are going to expect before
[9:12] handing over to our wonderful speakers
[9:15] for today's event. Um this event was
[9:19] actually inspired um by the Zen and the
[9:22] art of saving the planet online course.
[9:25] So we wanted to share a little bit about
[9:27] the course right from the outset. Um
[9:30] it's yeah wonderful to have so many of
[9:32] you joining us today and um some of you
[9:35] may be alumni of the course and some of
[9:38] you may be hearing about it uh for the
[9:40] first time and you're all very welcome.
[9:42] Um but for those of you that don't know
[9:44] about the course it's a real uh deep
[9:47] sevenweek online journey um that we're
[9:49] running again from the 18th of October
[9:51] until the 6th of December. And it really
[9:54] offers an opportunity to yeah connect
[9:57] and learn together. Um we have many live
[10:00] events with monastic teachers similar to
[10:03] this one. Um now uh we have guided
[10:06] guided teachings, practices and
[10:08] meditations as part of the course and
[10:10] it's also a real opportunity to connect
[10:12] with a a wide global community. So we've
[10:15] already had over 7 and a half thousand
[10:17] people travel through this course from
[10:20] over 120 countries. And as I say, many
[10:23] of you uh may be joining us um as ZASP
[10:25] alumni today. Um for those that haven't
[10:28] done the course before, you can learn
[10:30] more about it via plumvillage.org/zasp.
[10:33] Um and we'll share information in the
[10:35] follow-up to this event. And at the end
[10:37] of today's event, we're going to be
[10:38] sharing a special gift to support you to
[10:41] join on this deeper journey. Um but for
[10:44] now I would love to turn back to today's
[10:47] event um and introduce our wonderful
[10:50] speakers who it really is such an honor
[10:52] to be able to introduce um Kate Rayworth
[10:56] who's the author of Donut Economics who
[10:58] many of you will recognize and know well
[11:00] and of course Brother Fatlin who we just
[11:03] had that wonderful practice from who is
[11:06] a Zen Buddhist monk in Plum Village. and
[11:09] Kate and brother Fatlin are actually
[11:11] friends together on the path as well. So
[11:13] it's such a special occasion to be able
[11:15] to bring them together for this event.
[11:17] So now I would love to fully hand over
[11:20] to you both to take it from here. Thank
[11:22] you so much.
[11:25] >> Thanks so much Flo
[11:27] >> and it's it's really wonderful to be
[11:29] here with you brother uh in this
[11:31] conversation.
[11:32] >> Absolutely such a such a joy. Um,
[11:37] >> yes. Where are we going to start?
[11:39] >> We're going to start. Yeah, here's where
[11:40] we're going to start. We are coming from
[11:42] very different places. I studied
[11:44] economics because I wanted to change the
[11:47] world, help save the planet as is named
[11:50] in the course and I wanted to learn
[11:53] economics to be the tool of public
[11:56] policy that I wanted to engage with. So
[11:58] I really started with systems change and
[12:01] in in in my journey and frustration with
[12:04] economics I tried to go into paradigm
[12:06] change but it was coming from the system
[12:09] getting into the concepts uh
[12:13] and and still getting halfway there and
[12:16] my encounter with Plum Village takes me
[12:18] to a very different place which is
[12:20] captured in the name of this webinar
[12:21] right inner change for systems change. I
[12:24] started with system change.
[12:26] Plum village starts somewhere else.
[12:28] >> Right. Well, in a sense like when you
[12:30] know when I first encountered Thai and
[12:32] Plum Village, I think I had some of the
[12:35] same questions. Maybe not particularly
[12:37] through the lens of economics, but I had
[12:40] the awareness I had of the impending
[12:42] poly crisis and the already happening
[12:44] poly crisis is maybe 20 years ago or 25
[12:48] years ago and and then more and more the
[12:50] more we know about it. um the harder it
[12:53] seems. Um and so that's you know my
[12:57] reason for becoming a monk in Plum
[12:58] Village was also to do with what's the
[13:01] appropriate response you know what what
[13:04] can we do about this um not running away
[13:06] from it not hiding from it not trying to
[13:08] bypass it like what what's the response
[13:11] >> and what we're going to hopefully do in
[13:13] this workshop is to uh sort of present
[13:17] to you one way to understand the theory
[13:22] of change that we um that underlies all
[13:27] of our offerings in Plumbed. So all of
[13:28] our retreats and of of course the ZASP
[13:31] online course um why do we think that
[13:34] there's a connection between this deep
[13:36] inner work of inner transformation and
[13:39] systems change? Why are these not two
[13:41] separate areas? And we encounter this
[13:43] this question very frequently in our in
[13:45] our retreats and especially with people
[13:47] who are engaged in systems change. And
[13:49] very often you know the inner work feels
[13:51] good. we get to a place you know we meet
[13:53] our suffering and we start feeling
[13:55] better we you know everything's working
[13:58] and then the question comes up but what
[14:00] about systems change so uh we want to
[14:03] take that question head on in this
[14:05] session
[14:06] >> and for this webinar we invited people
[14:08] to send in their questions
[14:11] >> many have come in I just want to share
[14:13] as somebody who never normally sees the
[14:15] questions that are asked and shared with
[14:17] the monastics of Plum Village I
[14:20] I've been really struck and actually has
[14:22] made me go very quiet and I just want to
[14:24] acknowledge all the questions that
[14:25] people in this webinar have sent in uh
[14:27] because they're profound uh they are
[14:30] people we can imagine what some of them
[14:33] are they are people who've been striving
[14:36] for many many years and feeling that the
[14:38] the speed of change is not matching the
[14:40] urgency of the times how do I keep going
[14:43] with stamina without experiencing
[14:44] burnout how do I speak to people who
[14:46] don't understand this as I read those I
[14:49] felt
[14:51] both the the beauty of uh the trust and
[14:54] the care that people are bringing their
[14:56] questions to the monastics
[14:59] but also I I'll be really honest that it
[15:01] touched that many of these questions
[15:03] touched in me something that I often
[15:04] don't allow myself to look at every day
[15:06] or to feel every day because it's too
[15:08] much so I'm feeling it in seeing
[15:11] people's questions and I'm just aware
[15:13] that many people who are joining us
[15:14] today online are feeling this too this
[15:16] is what's brought this group of people
[15:18] together now around how Buddhism can
[15:21] help us think about the art of saving
[15:24] the planet. Uh the the responsibility of
[15:27] that and I hope what we're going to
[15:29] share um as you just said is one way of
[15:32] of engaging with this
[15:35] >> and that's extraordinary in itself that
[15:38] so many people I mean I think three and
[15:39] a half thousand people signed up for the
[15:41] webinar. I'm not sure how many are here
[15:43] now but certainly over a thousand it
[15:45] seems um with more following uh on the
[15:48] live stream on YouTube. So that in
[15:50] itself is kind of amazing good news you
[15:53] know that we're all we all care and we
[15:57] care so deeply and that's really
[15:58] reflected in the questions and it is as
[16:00] Kate says it's it's really
[16:04] it's really humbling you know to be
[16:05] entrusted with such profound questions
[16:09] >> and um you know what we offer uh is is
[16:13] kind of like the first pass you know
[16:16] it's some it might address some of the
[16:18] themes that were there through the
[16:20] questions. Um, but please know uh we
[16:24] can't of course address every question.
[16:26] We'll we'll do our absolute best uh to
[16:28] to speak to the broader themes that
[16:30] emerged. Um and then uh in the the the
[16:35] ZASP course also creates opportunities
[16:37] for for those for those big questions to
[16:39] come in through live events uh with the
[16:42] monastics um as well as in the smaller
[16:46] sharing groups uh throughout the course
[16:48] and in the reflection questions and so
[16:50] on. So whatever we don't answer now um
[16:54] you know
[16:56] there are other opportunities and yeah
[16:59] >> so the way we're going to share the the
[17:01] framework that we want to share we've
[17:02] had a chance to sit down together at at
[17:04] my kitchen table some weeks ago and
[17:06] actually draw a a a conceptual framework
[17:09] that we want to talk our way into
[17:11] tonight and we've got a wonderful scribe
[17:14] here who's going to come and say hello
[17:15] it's not because this is economics it's
[17:17] not the invisible hand of the market
[17:19] that Adam Smith so famous famously
[17:22] created. It's the invisible hand of my
[17:23] daughter, my daughter Siri, who is going
[17:26] to be scribing for us, drawing a picture
[17:28] as we talk. So, she's going to share her
[17:31] screen in a moment, and you will see it
[17:33] pop up.
[17:34] >> Hopefully, you'll see like a blackboard,
[17:36] which she will be drawing on, and you're
[17:37] able to move a dial if you want to make
[17:39] us bigger and smaller in relation to
[17:41] that blackboard as it comes. And and
[17:44] please know that you know the diagram
[17:46] that we're going to unfold for you uh
[17:49] over the next few minutes um is not to
[17:53] be taken as a kind of like this is the
[17:55] final explanation of you know all of
[17:59] Buddhism and all of Plum Village and uh
[18:02] theory of change and so it's just one
[18:04] sketch of it. Um, so, so we we offer it
[18:08] in that spirit of, you know, here's
[18:11] something that we came up with together
[18:13] that that speaks to how we're
[18:15] understanding the connection between
[18:17] systems change and and inner change. Um,
[18:21] but it's all work in progress. Um, so uh
[18:25] and yeah, there are other ways to to
[18:28] represent this. Okay. [snorts]
[18:31] >> Right.
[18:33] >> So, where do we start? you know in the
[18:35] Buddhist um world uh you know we we rely
[18:41] a lot on the methodology that the Buddha
[18:44] offered us which is the you know the
[18:46] basic one is the four noble truths and
[18:49] we start by you know the Buddha sort of
[18:52] tells us well the first noble truth is
[18:54] there is suffering so I invite you to uh
[18:57] to to not take his word for it and
[19:00] please check right right now is it true
[19:04] [laughter]
[19:05] um when I check uh I generally find it
[19:08] to be true and of course we can notice
[19:11] that there's individual you know
[19:13] personal suffering and there's enormous
[19:15] collective suffering so we are bringing
[19:18] the situation into the room into our
[19:22] awareness
[19:23] >> let's just acknowledge the situation
[19:27] >> this is uh the work the in the sense the
[19:30] point of the first novel truth is not to
[19:32] say everything is suffering But just
[19:34] there is suffering
[19:37] >> and
[19:37] >> and I'm going to give a name to that
[19:39] this situation right we uh
[19:42] >> it has come to be called the the poly
[19:44] crisis many people are using this phrase
[19:46] um so just to name the situation that we
[19:48] feel internally but is very vivid
[19:50] externally a poly crisis being
[19:53] when multiple different crises that
[19:55] apparently of different origins but of
[19:57] course everything is interconnected
[19:59] crises that are occurring simultaneously
[20:03] such that they have reinforcing feedback
[20:06] and effects on each other that they seem
[20:08] to buffer each other into ever greater
[20:11] uh extremes. So just to name some
[20:13] aspects of the poly crisis from climate
[20:16] and ecological breakdown that we know is
[20:19] occurring creating food and water crisis
[20:22] with the super El Nino that we already
[20:25] know is embedded connecting with uh
[20:29] economic crisis and extreme deprivation
[20:31] colliding with extreme wealth. Right?
[20:34] that one one is generating the other the
[20:36] rise of extreme wealth in the world
[20:38] today and the damages that this can
[20:40] have. Connecting with financial
[20:43] instability,
[20:44] rising authoritarianism in many
[20:46] countries,
[20:48] >> connecting with disruptive exponential
[20:50] technologies such as artificial
[20:52] intelligence that are likely
[20:56] transforming the role of humans, our
[20:58] sense of ourselves and our sense of our
[21:00] value and our role in the world. This is
[21:02] enough. Any one of these is enough to
[21:04] say, okay, this is this is an urgent
[21:07] major crisis that we need to tackle.
[21:09] They're occurring together. I want to
[21:11] add one thing, which is that many people
[21:13] who live in the global majority world,
[21:16] and I'm talking about those outside of
[21:17] the West, may say, hm, what you're
[21:19] describing sounds like a reality we've
[21:21] known for many, many decades, even
[21:23] centuries. So, I just want to
[21:24] acknowledge that there are people who
[21:26] have communities and cultures who have
[21:29] lived with poly crisis.
[21:31] >> Yeah. for for millennia.
[21:35] What's happening now is that it's
[21:37] literally being globalized and many of
[21:39] us in the west are experiencing that for
[21:42] the first time and thus it gets given a
[21:45] name.
[21:46] >> So I just want to acknowledge that this
[21:47] is not entirely new. So poly crisis and
[21:51] we feel it viscerally in our bellies. We
[21:53] feel it as a tight knot and the sense of
[21:54] overwhelm that is written into so many
[21:56] people's questions.
[21:57] >> That's it. So yes, this potty crisis,
[22:00] although we're describing this sort of
[22:02] vast sort of global situation, has all
[22:04] of these inner dimensions in the sense
[22:06] that we we're constantly on the verge of
[22:10] burnout uh or deep into burnout. Maybe
[22:13] we we feel overwhelmed, we feel
[22:15] powerless to change the situation. There
[22:17] may be despair, there may be anxiety,
[22:20] there may be loneliness. All of these
[22:21] things are reflections of this this
[22:25] massive situation that that we face.
[22:28] Um and let's just notice the effect on
[22:32] us right now as we name the suffering.
[22:35] You know, we we we bring it into
[22:37] awareness.
[22:39] That can be a lot. So, you know, please
[22:42] just
[22:44] recognize the the feelings in your body
[22:46] and we can we can regground ourselves.
[22:48] We can you know it can the feelings can
[22:51] be very strong here but but I think our
[22:53] toes generally are are okay even with
[22:57] poly crisis toes toes are very happy you
[23:00] know uh our contact with the ground even
[23:02] when we're thinking about poly crisis
[23:04] our contact with the ground is very very
[23:06] stable it actually is kind of a safe
[23:09] place to go with our awareness
[23:10] especially when we start to feel
[23:11] overwhelmed. So we can always kind of
[23:13] recenter, regground and and come back to
[23:16] the sensations of the breath and and so
[23:18] on if that feels comfortable. So um the
[23:22] next thing that we do uh as uh Buddhist
[23:25] practitioners is we you know we've
[23:28] acknowledged that there is suffering and
[23:29] then um we start getting curious about
[23:32] it and we ask well how did this
[23:34] suffering come to be? Um where did it
[23:38] come from?
[23:40] Uh, does this suffering have roots?
[23:44] Um,
[23:46] and I just noticed that
[23:48] maybe others are somehow uh drawing on
[23:53] the on the blackboard. So, if you could
[23:55] refrain from drawing uh on the shared
[23:57] board, that would be wonderful. And
[23:58] maybe delete if uh what you have drawn
[24:01] if if you did by accident.
[24:04] Um
[24:05] but yeah so so this this is the second
[24:08] noble truth the roots of suffering and
[24:09] and in a sense the what the Buddha tells
[24:12] us is if we understand the roots of
[24:14] suffering deeply enough um then
[24:18] something good is going to happen. So,
[24:21] so we when we're looking at this bigger,
[24:23] you know, this vast situation, uh, the
[24:26] global situation, we can ask, well, how
[24:29] has it come around? Uh, and and so one
[24:32] level of analysis sort of lower down the
[24:34] roots of that are in our institutions,
[24:37] for example.
[24:39] And, um,
[24:43] but our institutions didn't come out of
[24:45] nowhere.
[24:47] So they uh they are as they are. Um that
[24:53] [clears throat] that might be like our
[24:54] schools, our governments, uh our um
[24:58] are excuse me, uh our courts, um our
[25:04] international trade agreements, all of
[25:07] these things, they're based on um
[25:10] behavioral norms and practices and laws.
[25:14] So, so that's in a sense like a deeper
[25:16] root. Uh, so we we we're going to look
[25:20] into the roots of our institutions and
[25:22] then the roots of the roots of our
[25:24] institutions.
[25:26] Um, so what do we find as we dig in even
[25:31] deeper beneath, you know, how did these
[25:35] collective agreements come about, these
[25:36] behavioral norms, practices, laws, so
[25:40] on. Um they all
[25:44] you know in a sense are based on uh our
[25:48] shared beliefs
[25:49] um the stories that we hold together in
[25:53] our in our culture uh in our and in our
[25:55] cultures in our global culture and our
[25:58] worldviews.
[26:00] Um so
[26:03] when we are interested in paradigm
[26:05] change we want to know like how let's
[26:08] change we we we kind of know we should
[26:09] change this paradigm. this paradigm is
[26:11] hurting us. But um it's not enough just
[26:15] to say oh let's have a new paradigm. We
[26:17] have to know well how did this paradigm
[26:19] come about? And the paradigm itself
[26:21] rests on yet deeper layers. And and
[26:24] please like just to be clear like this
[26:26] is just one layering of this cake. You
[26:29] know we could have different layers of
[26:31] analysis. And I'm not suggesting that
[26:33] the causality is only linear in the
[26:36] sense that this causes that causes that
[26:37] causes that. there's feedback and feed
[26:40] forward at every level. So this is just
[26:43] a sketch. Uh don't take it too
[26:46] literally.
[26:48] But underneath our our beliefs, our
[26:51] stories, our worldviews,
[26:53] um I like to think about, you know, what
[26:57] are the patterns? uh the patterns of
[27:00] feeling, the sort of um yeah, structures
[27:04] of feeling, patterns of feeling,
[27:06] thinking, and even perceiving that we
[27:08] hold. They're kind of like our habits,
[27:10] our habits of feeling, our habits of
[27:12] perception, our habits of thinking that
[27:13] become invisible to us, but that very
[27:16] much shape our our worldview. Um and of
[27:20] course, you know, there is a vast
[27:22] diversity of worldviews. Um, but in in
[27:25] the terms of this kind of analysis,
[27:28] we're we're trying to see if we can feel
[27:31] into what might be a dominant worldview.
[27:34] And it doesn't mean that we agree with
[27:36] it, right? In fact, we almost certainly
[27:37] don't. But we have to acknowledge that
[27:40] there is a worldview
[27:42] that somehow exists in this shared space
[27:46] of our of our institutions, our norms,
[27:48] our education system and so on. And it
[27:51] might be hurting us. it might actually
[27:53] be causing suffering. So we've got down
[27:56] to this layer of patterns of feeling,
[27:58] thinking, perceiving.
[28:00] And I think one way to understand how
[28:02] those habits of perception, of thinking,
[28:04] of feeling come about is to look into
[28:07] the way um that language the the role
[28:11] that language plays uh in in the coming
[28:16] to be of our thoughts and our
[28:19] perceptions and our feelings. Uh because
[28:21] we might notice that as we go about our
[28:23] day um a lot of the time we're we're
[28:26] kind of navigating our life through
[28:30] language through the narration of
[28:32] experience
[28:34] um and uh you know even our perceptions
[28:37] are quite uh bound to linguistic
[28:42] structures um yeah so that's worth
[28:45] looking at as a potential cause of
[28:47] suffering and then um but I think even
[28:50] we can go even deeper
[28:52] And maybe underneath
[28:55] the structures of, you know, maybe now
[28:58] we're talking about the dominant
[28:59] languages. So, so we could talk about,
[29:02] you know, the European languages that uh
[29:04] tend to dominate a lot of our discourse,
[29:07] our international agreements and and so
[29:09] on. So, of course, there are other
[29:11] structures of language that might serve
[29:12] us better, but the ones that we're kind
[29:15] of saddled with for the moment are very
[29:18] like nounheavy. uh for example. And that
[29:22] that structure itself might depend on a
[29:24] yet deeper layer um which for now we're
[29:28] just going to call the fundamental
[29:30] feeling of separation,
[29:33] right? Which is also the feeling that
[29:35] we're kind of on our own. That that I'm
[29:38] in here and the world is this big scary
[29:41] place where I have to survive and I
[29:43] might be threatened. I might be in
[29:44] danger. Um I might have to compete. Uh,
[29:47] but there's me and there's world and I'm
[29:49] separate from it. [snorts] And again, I
[29:51] know we almost certainly don't agree
[29:53] with that, but we have to recognize that
[29:56] it is that it's there uh and it shows up
[30:00] a lot in our in the way our world uh
[30:03] >> kind of is organized.
[30:05] >> Thank you for setting that out. Uh, I
[30:07] found the first time you I heard you
[30:09] specify these different layers, I found
[30:11] it so helpful to help me separate out
[30:15] the different layers of my critique of
[30:18] and frustration with the economic
[30:20] mindset that I was taught. So in the
[30:23] spirit of bringing economics together
[30:24] with the this foundational concept
[30:27] approach to Buddhism and uh change I'm
[30:31] going to run through these with some
[30:33] examples from mainstream economics and I
[30:35] hope that they really resonate with many
[30:36] many people in the webinar. So I'm going
[30:39] to go back. So if the situation is one
[30:40] of poly crisis and this suffering has
[30:43] roots I mean you're inviting us to start
[30:45] with institutions. So to really to
[30:47] observe the entities that we see in the
[30:50] world and I want to pick out three kinds
[30:52] of institutions that I I see. One is the
[30:54] nation state. So nations u right we've
[30:57] divided the world into these political
[30:59] entities and we think economically if
[31:02] you want to take a kind of macro unit of
[31:05] analysis it's the nation that becomes
[31:07] the how how is that nation growing? How
[31:09] is that nation doing? Adam Smith wrote
[31:11] about the wealth of nations. So this is
[31:13] a a major entity of institution
[31:17] within that economically there are
[31:19] companies and I'm saying the word
[31:21] companies in very intentionally uh this
[31:24] could include private businesses or it
[31:26] could include corporations owned by
[31:28] shareholders. There's a wonderful irony
[31:30] with the world the word companies it
[31:32] literally compound. It means to break
[31:35] bread with but actually what companies
[31:37] do is make dough as it were in slang
[31:40] right so they're they're very profit
[31:41] oriented and so the the companies that
[31:43] we have have a profit primacy as in the
[31:47] their primary f intention of these
[31:50] entities of these institutions is to
[31:52] generate profit. This is what makes a
[31:55] company and that matters. And then I
[31:57] want to add here the institutions of
[31:59] finance because I think the design of
[32:01] finance, the creation of finance, the
[32:03] creation, the power to create money and
[32:05] the the character it's given deeply
[32:08] shape our companies and then how nations
[32:12] uh prioritize companies in their pursuit
[32:14] of profit. So that's at an institutional
[32:17] level. If we go down a level, I found
[32:19] this really helpful to think about what
[32:21] are the behavioral norms and practices
[32:22] that we see enacted out by these kinds
[32:25] of institutions. And it an expression
[32:27] that brother spirit shared with me some
[32:29] weeks ago was these are forms of
[32:31] institutionalized combat.
[32:34] Now we know that we have
[32:35] institutionalized combat in sport. We
[32:37] love it. People love having a team and
[32:39] the teams play against each other and
[32:41] one team wins and one team loses. And
[32:43] there's clearly something deeply in us
[32:44] that loves competition and it can be
[32:47] really healthy. But it seems that we
[32:50] have the western economic approach and
[32:52] paradigm and enactment has taken
[32:54] institutionalized combat and brought it
[32:57] into economic structures. So we have
[33:00] companies competing against each other.
[33:02] We have nations competing each other. I
[33:04] mean look at the AI race that's on right
[33:07] now. But we've also brought it into
[33:10] politics. And as a British person, I can
[33:12] say I see our our political parties
[33:14] literally are seated opposite each
[33:16] other, shouting at each other. Other
[33:18] countries have organized it a little
[33:20] more sensibly, but still it's party
[33:22] versus party. It's very combat driven
[33:25] approach to politics and in law, you
[33:28] know, who's going to win the case. So,
[33:30] we've brought combat uh
[33:32] institutionalized into the the heart of
[33:35] our behavioral norms and practices. it
[33:37] is inherently competitive
[33:39] >> and we and there's an assumption that
[33:42] it's that that's a good thing that that
[33:44] combat or competition is going to drive
[33:46] innovation. Um it's going to keep making
[33:49] things better. It's going to make us
[33:51] perform better. So it's also in our
[33:53] education. Every exam is a kind of
[33:55] >> right,
[33:56] >> you know, ritualized combat in a sense
[33:58] maybe implicitly. You we're competing
[34:00] with literally everybody else in the
[34:02] country, you know, at our end of school
[34:04] exams. Uh, and we're alone. It's like
[34:07] alone against the world.
[34:08] >> Yeah.
[34:09] >> Yes. And so under these norms that we
[34:13] don't even notice sometimes that we're
[34:14] in this institutionalized combat, what
[34:16] are the beliefs and stories and
[34:17] worldviews that sit underneath them
[34:20] >> coming out of the western economic
[34:22] mindset and indeed the practice which
[34:24] now dominates the world? There are of
[34:25] course so many. I want to pick out
[34:28] three. And the first one is the
[34:31] self-interested human. that the that the
[34:33] notion that that we as humans our our
[34:35] primary trait is self-interest. And
[34:37] here's a little drawing of a rational
[34:40] economic man who how he's characterized
[34:42] in mainstream western economics. He's a
[34:45] the me, the ego. This is my
[34:47] self-interest. I engage with the world
[34:49] through the market. I'm calculating in
[34:50] my head, but I'm driven by my
[34:53] self-interest to pursue what matters and
[34:56] is valuable to me. So the
[34:58] self-interested human of rational
[35:00] economic man which is placed at the
[35:02] heart of that competitive um engagement.
[35:05] The second one I want to bring is
[35:08] ownership of assets. Ownership. So the
[35:12] idea that we as humans who if we're
[35:15] lucky we live maybe
[35:18] 80 90 maximum you know a hundred years
[35:21] but that we little beings who are
[35:22] temporarily not soil in the words of
[35:25] Robin W Kimmera that we could claim to
[35:27] own trees that live for 300 years or own
[35:30] land that has been here for billions of
[35:32] years. the notion of ownership. And I've
[35:35] chosen the word assets here, not only
[35:37] because it's so prevalent in mainstream
[35:39] financial talk, but because I I looked
[35:41] up the the root of the word asset, and
[35:45] it comes from old French ass, which
[35:48] means literally enough. So there's
[35:50] something very ironic.
[35:51] >> Wow.
[35:52] >> That the word assets, assets are used to
[35:55] get more, right? To we use acids, we
[35:57] sweat our assets. And yet the origins of
[36:00] the word acid itself is This is enough.
[36:03] This satisfies. So something very
[36:06] twisted has happened in the western
[36:08] mindset and language to turn enoughness
[36:11] into the thing we sweat for more.
[36:14] The third one I'll add here is
[36:16] accumulation.
[36:18] The notion and I'm going to bring a bit
[36:20] of old hose pipe here. The notion that
[36:22] that growth is good, right? And this is
[36:24] this is the shape of progress. It looks
[36:26] like an ever exponentially growing curve
[36:30] going up. But we hear it in every
[36:31] politician's speech and every
[36:32] economist's advice. Growth is good. More
[36:36] is better. Accumulation, it is at the
[36:39] the heart of capitalist economies,
[36:41] right? We sweat our assets to accumulate
[36:44] more. We use our companies to generate
[36:46] the profit that will give us that
[36:49] moreness.
[36:50] >> Yeah.
[36:52] >> Often we we stop here and and and
[36:54] explore this um and and and critique
[36:56] economics through this. And I I do a lot
[36:58] of this myself, but it's really
[36:59] interesting to go this level below that
[37:01] brother spirit's inviting. What is the
[37:03] the pattern of feeling, thinking, and
[37:05] perceiving? What's the deeper assumption
[37:08] that we we embody but often don't name?
[37:11] >> Right? Like if we really want to
[37:14] transform this paradigm, it might not be
[37:16] enough just to come up with a better
[37:18] paradigm and say this is a this is a
[37:21] better paradigm. We might actually need
[37:23] to understand how did this paradigm come
[37:26] about like can we can we uh accomplish a
[37:30] transformation even in ourselves at an
[37:33] even deeper level so that um
[37:38] so the new paradigm emerges naturally
[37:40] from that it doesn't have to be imposed
[37:42] and it's not a conceptual thing it's a
[37:43] natural sort of emergent thing
[37:46] >> so here okay so so inviting us to go
[37:49] deeper I'm going to bring here I think
[37:51] one of the deep patterns of feeling,
[37:54] thinking and perceiving is the notion of
[37:56] externalities which is at the heart of
[37:58] western economic thought that of course
[38:00] there are impacts beyond but they're
[38:02] impacting others and the very notion of
[38:05] externalities creates an othering. And I
[38:08] don't mean others as in celebrating
[38:11] diversity. I mean as in demarking
[38:13] difference.
[38:14] >> Uh this and and distance, right? This
[38:17] this is uh this object is owned here.
[38:20] It's valued here. Here it may be given
[38:22] monetary value. I can value this object
[38:25] and there are other things I can
[38:26] separate from it and that are distinct
[38:28] from it. That's a really important point
[38:31] part of property.
[38:33] >> This is my property that is other.
[38:36] >> Yeah.
[38:37] >> And it's related to map making as well I
[38:39] think in interesting ways when it
[38:40] concerns land. Um, which is another sort
[38:43] of maybe a little rabbit hole, but just
[38:44] the fact that the idea that we can make
[38:46] an abstract representation of reality on
[38:48] a piece of paper, draw a line and then
[38:51] say, "Well, this is mine.
[38:54] It's it's a wild idea really when you
[38:57] look at it."
[38:59] Yes. And un
[39:03] the structure of language. So, this is
[39:04] that beautiful invitation to try and
[39:06] step out of the water of our own
[39:07] language. And I think for many people,
[39:08] I'm going to bet for many people on this
[39:10] call, the work of Robin Wal Kimmera
[39:12] >> teaching us uh to to to hear and see
[39:16] with her pottomy indigenous culture that
[39:20] she has been reacquiring
[39:22] is to realize that the language and the
[39:24] language I'm speaking right now that
[39:26] we're listening and speaking in English
[39:27] language particularly
[39:30] picks out entities, picks out objects
[39:33] and things. We name things. We are very
[39:35] nounheavy language which of course helps
[39:38] us distinguish this object from that
[39:41] object and create boundaries around
[39:43] things that we can point to and pick up
[39:45] and own as property and buy and sell
[39:47] these distinct objects. And again we
[39:51] only we can only sometimes hear it when
[39:53] we step out of it and hear that other
[39:55] languages think differently. Robin
[39:56] Wimmerro famously said there is a there
[39:59] is a a word of to be obey
[40:02] >> which is so alien to the English
[40:04] language because we we turn a noun
[40:06] instead of a being in a flowing process.
[40:09] >> So I'm going to stop there because uh
[40:11] this is what what helped me unpick the
[40:15] economics that I learned to get down to
[40:17] the structure of language and and the
[40:19] teachings of Plum Village really helped
[40:20] me think about it. But never in my
[40:23] economics education did we talk about
[40:24] the fundamental feeling of separation.
[40:26] So brother
[40:27] >> take us there.
[40:29] >> Thank you Kate. Okay. So, as you can
[40:31] see, I I hope you know, as we we we're
[40:34] really kind of establishing that there
[40:37] there are these connections between the
[40:39] the vast situation that we find
[40:41] ourselves in and sometimes feel
[40:43] overwhelmed by and and our own habits in
[40:47] a sense of of feeling, of perceiving, uh
[40:50] the language that we use, the way that
[40:52] we think around the world, about the
[40:53] world. Um and so uh
[41:00] why have we added this layer of the
[41:02] fundamental feeling of separation and
[41:04] what can we do about it? I think it
[41:05] might be again that in this community we
[41:08] might sort of feel like yes that's the
[41:09] thing we want to get rid of. Um, but I
[41:11] want to be very careful there not to
[41:14] demonize it and just to recognize that
[41:17] all of us went through this experience
[41:20] of being born.
[41:22] And the moment our umbilical cord was
[41:25] cut
[41:27] was a very dangerous moment. Um, we
[41:32] suddenly we've been looked after, we've
[41:35] been nourished, we've uh by by our
[41:38] mother. Our our mother has eaten for us.
[41:40] She she's breathed for us. She's kept
[41:43] the temperature stable for us. She's
[41:45] created this uh palace in I think in
[41:48] Chinese and Vietnamese the womb is
[41:49] called the palace of the child. Uh it's
[41:52] so comfortable. Everything is perfect.
[41:55] Um and suddenly we're out and the lights
[41:58] are bright and the air is harsh and you
[42:00] know there are foreign hands on us and
[42:03] who knows it's it could be it's an
[42:05] absolutely terrifying moment and then
[42:06] suddenly we're cut off. We are alone in
[42:09] that moment and we could die if we don't
[42:12] take that first breath.
[42:15] We die
[42:17] and that must be absolutely terrifying.
[42:21] Um so there is very naturally an
[42:25] original fear
[42:27] um that might still be within us at some
[42:30] level and that fear is necessary because
[42:32] it it it it pushes us to do something
[42:35] about it. uh we're afraid to die. Um and
[42:38] we don't want to die. Uh so there's also
[42:40] a desire. There's a desire to live. And
[42:43] so we we're going to make the effort.
[42:45] We're going to cough out the amniotic
[42:46] fluid from our lungs. We're going to
[42:47] take that first breath. It's hard. It's
[42:49] probably unpleasant. We cry. It's maybe
[42:51] painful.
[42:53] Um it's a very very powerful sort of
[42:55] formative experience that we all have to
[42:57] go through. And there's nothing wrong
[42:58] with it in a sense.
[43:00] All of that is
[43:03] is beautiful is is part of life. Um and
[43:07] and of course underlying that original
[43:09] fear and uh original desire is our
[43:12] survival instinct. Very very powerful.
[43:14] We want to live. Again nothing wrong
[43:17] with that potentially. Um and even maybe
[43:21] deeper than the survival instinct itself
[43:23] is is vitality.
[43:26] It's our life force. Um and this is in
[43:29] all living beings. Uh all living things
[43:31] want to live. Um it's a very very
[43:36] powerful thing. Um and maybe you know in
[43:40] our in our meditation as we go deep and
[43:42] we start to get in touch with these very
[43:45] powerful forces, it's not to sort of
[43:47] shut them down and and and say, "Oh,
[43:49] I've got to be very, you know, calm and
[43:52] not have any desire and not want to do
[43:54] things and not have any energy and I've
[43:56] got to stay still.
[43:57] I think that might be a mischaract
[43:59] characterization of you know what the
[44:01] Buddha was inviting us to do.
[44:04] And you know my teacher Thai uh would
[44:07] ask us very frequently this question or
[44:09] sort of challenge us. He said go into
[44:11] the forest
[44:13] sit at the foot of a tree and find out
[44:16] what is your deepest desire.
[44:21] And this question in a sense should
[44:24] terrify us. It certainly terrified me.
[44:27] Uh so I very naively if says to do
[44:31] something I okay well I suppose I have
[44:33] to do it. So I literally did it. I went
[44:35] into the forest long before I became a
[44:37] monk sat at the foot of a tree and I
[44:39] asked myself okay can I find out right
[44:42] now what is my deepest desire? [snorts]
[44:46] And of course that what I was afraid to
[44:49] discover
[44:52] was you know what was with me is like
[44:55] what if my deepest desire is actually
[44:57] just to survive to survive and to win to
[45:01] compete to reproduce to find comfort and
[45:04] shelter and maybe
[45:07] yeah um pleasure and you know to be
[45:12] loved but basically just to survive.
[45:15] um and uh survive and thrive kind of
[45:18] like what if that's it? What if that's
[45:19] really who I am?
[45:22] um and all of this other stuff, you
[45:24] know, that I think maybe I, you know,
[45:25] want to be a nice guy and do good things
[45:27] and save the planet and stop the poly
[45:29] crisis and maybe that I've just fooled
[45:31] myself and actually at root what I
[45:34] really want is just to live and you know
[45:37] maybe at any cost to you know that it
[45:41] that might be the case right and you
[45:43] know when I sat down in that meditation
[45:46] I wanted to I need I sort of felt like I
[45:49] need to risk that that's the answer
[45:52] >> for that question to be real,
[45:55] I need to risk that that's what I'll
[45:57] find out. But what I found was something
[45:59] completely different, which stunned me.
[46:01] I didn't really know that this might,
[46:04] you know, be there.
[46:06] What I found was, of course, I want to
[46:08] survive. Of course, there's that desire
[46:10] to to reproduce, to have children, to to
[46:13] thrive, to win, to be loved, all of
[46:15] those things. Of course, that's all
[46:16] there. And there's nothing wrong with
[46:17] any of that. It's all fine part of life.
[46:19] That's one manifestation of our
[46:21] vitality, of our life force. But I found
[46:23] something else. And to me, it became
[46:26] very clear in that meditation that it
[46:27] was even more powerful than the desire
[46:31] to survive. And and and now, you know,
[46:34] as we were making this diagram, I sort
[46:36] of realized this is also a manifestation
[46:39] of vitality. So we can feel the power of
[46:43] the life force within us of that
[46:45] vitality. And maybe we can open our mind
[46:49] to the possibility that it can go a
[46:51] different way. And the the other way,
[46:54] the thing that I found was this wild
[46:57] desire in me for all things to be well,
[47:01] for all beings throughout all time and
[47:03] space to be at peace, to be well, to be
[47:07] happy, not to suffer. And I call that
[47:11] like one way I like to talk about it is
[47:13] the will to the good. there's just this
[47:17] and it's a bit irrational like it
[47:18] doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't,
[47:20] you know, it's not evolutionary
[47:22] evolutionarily
[47:24] uh logical for me to care. But we can
[47:28] all observe you, you see uh an ant
[47:31] struggling or a spider struggling to get
[47:33] out of a sink,
[47:34] you help it. You don't want the spider
[47:36] to suffer. It doesn't make any
[47:37] difference to you. It's doesn't help
[47:39] you. Doesn't make you more money or, you
[47:42] know, but but we do it like that's a
[47:44] part of us. And I think what we've been
[47:45] told a little bit maybe and maybe with a
[47:48] lot of authority by the dominant
[47:50] paradigm is that yes, you know, that's
[47:52] part of us. We are sort of slightly
[47:53] empathic, but it's probably very small.
[47:56] And really what's stronger is the
[47:58] survival instinct and our selfishness
[48:00] and our drive for competition and all
[48:01] that. But what I'm saying and I think
[48:04] what we can really test for ourselves is
[48:06] actually let's check. Let's find out.
[48:08] And I know, you know, when I test, and I
[48:11] still do, what I find is it's the other
[48:14] way around. This is stronger. The will
[48:17] for all things to be well, um for others
[48:21] not to suffer, uh for myself not to
[48:24] suffer, for suffering to be eased and
[48:26] held and transformed is so so so
[48:29] powerful. And and that are so there's
[48:32] nothing wrong with our energy, right?
[48:34] There's nothing wrong with the kind of
[48:36] vitality we have. But you know in in the
[48:38] process of deepening in meditation we
[48:40] should have more energy not less right
[48:43] >> um and it's just like the question is
[48:46] where do we channel that energy where
[48:47] does it where does it go
[48:49] >> so I think this gives us um a way and
[48:52] you know we could talk about like what
[48:54] are the practices that allow us to get
[48:55] in touch with this
[48:57] >> um and um
[49:00] uh you know that's sort of throughout
[49:02] plum village retreats and the zast
[49:04] course and so on but right for now we're
[49:06] just to sort keep building out this uh
[49:09] this picture.
[49:10] Um I think the the result of channeling
[49:13] our energy that way is that we start
[49:18] getting
[49:19] a feeling for our interconnectedness,
[49:22] not as a concept.
[49:25] Um but we actually start realizing
[49:29] I in a sense like I care about suffering
[49:32] throughout all of time and space because
[49:33] I am all of time and space. like it's
[49:36] that's why it matters so much. It's like
[49:38] it's so powerful because it's me. It's
[49:41] my body. It's I I'm not separate from
[49:43] any of it. So I call that in a sense
[49:45] that we start to feel little glimmerings
[49:48] of our interbeing nature. And what
[49:50] results from that is we start to have
[49:54] less fear.
[49:56] We feel less fear. Maybe we even touch
[49:58] non fear because if we're not separate
[50:01] then you know our own death it's it's
[50:04] not as bad as we thought because we're
[50:07] also this. We are this but we're also
[50:09] this. So the disappearance of this
[50:13] you know [clears throat] and we could
[50:14] have a little bit of that or more of
[50:15] that. And we also start to find more joy
[50:20] and ease in letting go. Like letting no
[50:22] go not as a big sacrifice and something
[50:24] very harsh and difficult but letting go
[50:26] because it's like oh I have enough. I am
[50:29] [clears throat] enough. I'm all this. I
[50:31] am you know
[50:33] I don't need to accumulate things. I can
[50:35] I can live with this. It's so and it's
[50:38] very joyful. So, so this in a sense is
[50:40] the beginning of what the Buddha maybe
[50:44] called the third noble truth which is
[50:45] well-being [snorts] uh suka uh joy and
[50:49] ease. Um so so we you know we've got to
[50:54] the roots of of our suffering. We found
[50:57] that maybe we can direct that energy in
[51:00] a different way and we start actually to
[51:01] feel better because and we feel less
[51:04] alone. We feel connected. We're less
[51:06] afraid. uh we don't need as much. Um and
[51:11] uh yeah, so here we are. We're at the
[51:12] third noble truth. And um and then what
[51:16] happens? We go back up the other side.
[51:18] We're going to start going back up these
[51:20] these layers and see like, you know, it
[51:22] doesn't have to be that we that we get
[51:24] completely enlightened for all of this
[51:26] to happen. We we it's enough just to get
[51:27] a little a little taste, a little
[51:29] glimmer through through the practices of
[51:31] mindfulness, concentration, insight. And
[51:35] you know we can go more into that in
[51:37] other sessions on other courses and
[51:39] retreats and so on.
[51:40] >> Um and um yeah and then and then other
[51:45] things start to flow from that. We have
[51:47] a we start to have a different feeling
[51:49] for the role of language in our life.
[51:51] Maybe we start reaching for new
[51:54] language. And I think that's what my
[51:55] teacher did um when he was trying to
[52:00] help us in a in a sense like uh he was
[52:03] trying to give us a new language for
[52:05] this new way of perceiving this new way
[52:07] of feeling. Um and so he offered us the
[52:10] word into being,
[52:12] >> right? And so this is this is a really
[52:15] good start. you know, we we have um
[52:18] already the sense that uh all things are
[52:22] have a kind of interbeing nature.
[52:24] Nothing really can be separated from
[52:26] from the web. So that word uh whilst
[52:29] it's still a concept, still a word, we
[52:31] don't want to get caught in it, but it
[52:33] starts to give us a new way to to
[52:35] perceive um and we start seeing things
[52:38] more in terms of their relations um with
[52:42] each other, with ourselves, with our
[52:44] feeling uh with our feelings um and so
[52:48] this uh starts to structure our
[52:51] experience differently. And then
[52:54] what do you think cape happens you know
[52:57] once we start actually experiencing this
[53:00] this this level of connection uh to
[53:04] ourselves to each other to the cosmos to
[53:06] nature particularly once we start
[53:08] actually perceiving through the lens of
[53:10] of interbeing of our interconnection
[53:13] >> um what what patterns of thinking
[53:17] feeling perceiving might arise from that
[53:19] and then what beliefs and stories and
[53:20] worldviews and what new paradigms are
[53:23] waiting to emerge.
[53:24] >> Yeah, thank you for all of that. The
[53:26] richness of that. I want to I want to
[53:27] share. I love I love the celebration of
[53:30] vitality here.
[53:31] >> Uh I have a lot of energy. I have a lot
[53:33] of I I really feel that sense of
[53:35] vitality and life force and
[53:39] and also in myself and I and I can see
[53:41] it in others. Which way are we going to
[53:42] go? Right? We we all know we can be
[53:45] collaborative, competitive and and I
[53:46] just want to go back to actually to Adam
[53:48] Smith himself in his book the theory of
[53:50] moral sentiments in 1759. He wrote and
[53:53] you literally he wrote in these two
[53:55] directions these arrows you mentioned he
[53:57] said that self-interest is the virtue
[54:00] most useful to the individual but our
[54:03] humanity justice generosity and public
[54:06] spirit are our virtues most useful to
[54:09] others. So right there he saw this sort
[54:12] of which way are we going to go people?
[54:14] Which way are we going to go? Now
[54:15] economics actually pulled the very
[54:17] self-interest version out of Adam Smith.
[54:19] But if if anyone reads his writing, he
[54:21] was so into the public, the generous,
[54:23] the human, the just, the the relational,
[54:25] right? All of those words are
[54:27] relational.
[54:28] >> And maybe we can help him a little bit
[54:30] upgrade his quote.
[54:32] >> Say our what did he say? Our public
[54:33] spirit.
[54:34] >> He said humanity, justice, generosity,
[54:36] and public spirit. Those are not only of
[54:40] benefit to others, they are also of most
[54:42] benefit to ourselves.
[54:43] >> Beautiful. Thank you. And when I first
[54:47] encountered the work of Tiknahan Thai uh
[54:51] this word into being it's it's that
[54:54] beautiful thing with with one word
[54:55] somebody goes
[54:57] here's a new world view and suddenly
[55:00] inviting you to see the relations
[55:02] between the rel so relation being the
[55:05] fundamental unit in the world rather
[55:07] than a thing. So suddenly you're looking
[55:08] at the spaces in between the fingers
[55:10] rather than the fingers. You're looking
[55:11] at relations and connections. This was
[55:14] totally mind-blowing for me to encounter
[55:16] this and and it creates this joyful new
[55:20] new kind of economic thinking that I
[55:22] wish in this webinar I know many many
[55:24] people could joyfully uh bring an
[55:26] alternative economic vision up this side
[55:28] which I'm going to do. So in instead of
[55:31] entities and things we have relations
[55:33] and interbeing as a foundation for what
[55:37] what we what we know is in the world
[55:40] what we what what matters and what we
[55:42] center. So instead of focusing on
[55:44] externalities,
[55:45] I'm going to use a wonderful word
[55:47] brought in by a friend of mine, Indie
[55:48] Joha. He talks about entanglements. And
[55:50] I'm just going to grab here.
[55:53] >> This plant, this plant which lives in my
[55:56] study is not a single object. Is an
[55:58] entanglement of a fern, with soil, with
[56:02] bacteria, with the sunlight, with the
[56:04] water. It's entangled with me actually
[56:06] because if I don't water it, it won't.
[56:08] So it's deeply entangled
[56:11] >> like everything around us once you once
[56:14] you start looking at the entanglements
[56:16] it's it's
[56:17] mindblowing.
[56:19] >> I was with Indie Johar last week and and
[56:23] um I offered another new word maybe
[56:26] which is internalities.
[56:28] >> Oh
[56:29] >> not just externalities. And we were
[56:31] talking about for example like the
[56:32] effect of um rainfall in Indonesia on uh
[56:36] the weather in Australia for example.
[56:39] And that in a sense like we we all of
[56:41] our nation states which are which govern
[56:44] themselves decide on you know make their
[56:47] economic policies as if they are
[56:49] separate actually depend and are
[56:53] intimately connected to atmospheric
[56:55] rivers
[56:56] >> which are driven by um evaporation from
[56:59] the rainforest primarily the Amazon I
[57:02] think the Congo basin and Indonesia and
[57:05] we all need those
[57:07] >> yes
[57:08] >> rainforest to generate the atmospheric
[57:09] rivers for all of our crops to be grown
[57:12] and so on. So, so those are not
[57:14] externalities. Those are internalities
[57:17] >> beautiful
[57:17] >> that we don't cost just as we don't cost
[57:20] the externalities. We don't account for
[57:21] them. We just assume that they're there.
[57:24] But everything depends on them and we're
[57:25] just ignoring them and of course they're
[57:26] now starting to fail.
[57:28] >> Beautiful. And as you just said, we
[57:29] don't cost. And so instead of talking
[57:31] about monetary value, let's and and I
[57:32] haven't found a good term for this, but
[57:35] for for now holistic value that is in in
[57:39] the interconnections of all those
[57:40] internalities.
[57:42] >> Talking of entanglement, we are
[57:44] unfortunately very entangled with the
[57:46] clock right now. So I'm going to take us
[57:50] quite fast up this new side and and
[57:52] everything that I'm bringing here and
[57:54] that we've discussed. I invite everyone
[57:56] uh on this webinar to know that this is
[57:58] of course the emergent possibility that
[58:00] many many people here are helping to
[58:03] create shape envision name make possible
[58:06] make visible in the world. So I'll just
[58:08] bring some some words to to uh give an a
[58:13] positive um opposition to what's on the
[58:16] other side. So instead of accumulation
[58:18] and growth is good, let's celebrate
[58:20] enoughness
[58:21] >> and that balance is good. Enoughness and
[58:24] of course that's for me that was at the
[58:26] heart of creating this concept of the
[58:27] donut where we meet the needs of all
[58:30] within the means of the living planet
[58:31] and we find balance so that there is
[58:34] enough for all within the means of the
[58:36] planet. The planet has enough uh balance
[58:40] and integrity and humans have enough. So
[58:43] opposing the endless growth pursuit
[58:45] towards an enoughness
[58:47] um a new very different meaning of
[58:49] assets. So we steward assets, right? We
[58:53] who what hubris to think that a a
[58:55] temporary human can own beings and and
[58:59] cre creations of this earth of
[59:01] millennia. We steward we receive assets
[59:05] that it is our role and responsibility
[59:07] to pass them on in at least as good a
[59:09] state that we found them. So I and of
[59:11] course stewardship is rising in the
[59:13] space of new economic thinking. It's
[59:16] beautifully coming out of everything
[59:18] that's just been described about the
[59:19] interrelatedness of things. We are
[59:20] stewarding this earth as responsible
[59:23] beings within it. And then instead of
[59:25] being told that we are self-interested
[59:27] humans, we are pro-social beings. And
[59:30] all the science shows us we are the most
[59:33] pro-social of all mammals. We have to
[59:35] tap into our care, our love, our
[59:37] willingness to cue, to share, to assist
[59:40] others beyond our kin. It's a a human
[59:42] superpower. We have to tap into
[59:45] understanding that version of ourselves.
[59:47] And how then do we design our behaviors
[59:49] and norms and practices and this this I
[59:52] get very excited about. Uh the work of
[59:54] Ellen Ostramm has I think been
[59:56] foundational for many people when she
[59:58] says the commons, don't tell me the
[1:00:00] commons are tragic. The commons can be a
[1:00:02] triumph if the correct norms and
[1:00:05] principles and rules are in place to
[1:00:07] protect that pro-social side of us so
[1:00:10] that nobody feels that we're going to be
[1:00:12] cheated by a self-interested character
[1:00:15] coming in and um you know overturning
[1:00:18] the collective value we're creating. We
[1:00:20] can create we can create shared value
[1:00:22] when we put in place good values that
[1:00:25] hold us together. So, Ellen Ostramm's
[1:00:28] core design principles. But I do want to
[1:00:30] mention here the the a really valuable
[1:00:33] tool that I learned through the plum
[1:00:36] village practice that I know is
[1:00:37] introduced in the ZASP course of
[1:00:39] beginning a new which is a beautiful
[1:00:42] practice between two people when we have
[1:00:44] bumped into each other. Uh we have
[1:00:47] misunderstood each other, we have hurt
[1:00:48] each other, we have fallen out of
[1:00:50] connection for getting back into
[1:00:52] connection. It's something I use very
[1:00:54] often in my life to reset profoundly
[1:00:57] relationships. So again, the teachings
[1:01:00] of Plum Village really help us with this
[1:01:02] organized reconciliation. It's such a
[1:01:04] beautiful contrast to institutionalized
[1:01:07] combat because we do bump into each
[1:01:09] other. We show up with our baggage. We
[1:01:10] all have our buttons that can be
[1:01:12] pressed. We have our biases. We need
[1:01:14] ways of reconciling and reconnecting
[1:01:17] with one another in our in our human uh
[1:01:20] vulnerability to misunderstand and
[1:01:23] misconrue. So those are key
[1:01:26] >> and then I'm going to lift us up here to
[1:01:29] what kind of institutions then this is
[1:01:30] this is the space of search
[1:01:33] >> we can gesture towards believing that we
[1:01:35] we should organize more around bio
[1:01:36] regions. Earth herself being the biggest
[1:01:39] bio region. The whole planet is of
[1:01:41] course the bio region of concern but bio
[1:01:43] regions rather than political divisions
[1:01:45] that we organize in organizations that
[1:01:48] have purpose primacy rather than profit
[1:01:50] primacy. So it could be a business it
[1:01:52] could be a business but it's driven
[1:01:53] firstly by its purpose not by the
[1:01:56] pursuit of profit. And instead of
[1:01:58] finance we find some new form of flows
[1:02:00] that many people are now working on. How
[1:02:02] do we redesign finance so we recognize
[1:02:05] what's needed is flow in life
[1:02:07] >> different kinds of resource flow. And
[1:02:09] this all contributes towards well if we
[1:02:11] want to get out of poly crisis and we
[1:02:13] want to come with new words
[1:02:15] a beautiful vision of poly thriving and
[1:02:18] that's got a fractalness in it that the
[1:02:20] earth is thriving that people in
[1:02:22] different bio regions [clears throat]
[1:02:23] are thriving that humans and the more
[1:02:24] than human are thriving and that within
[1:02:26] our own bodies that we can feel well and
[1:02:29] thriving
[1:02:31] [sighs]
[1:02:32] >> and we can only thrive together with all
[1:02:36] uh with all species with all nations
[1:02:40] um with all yeah with all our all our
[1:02:44] kithan kin uh human and more than human
[1:02:47] and I think um maybe I didn't mention
[1:02:51] the four the fourth noble truth which is
[1:02:53] the way uh the path the practice and
[1:02:56] Siri was kind enough to add it in there
[1:02:58] at the at the turn uh of the U so it's
[1:03:01] kind of like the you know we were
[1:03:04] looking diving down finding out what's
[1:03:06] at the root of um of suffering. And then
[1:03:09] we're we're finding well, we're starting
[1:03:12] to feel that well-being is possible, but
[1:03:13] there's also a way there's a way to
[1:03:15] bring that well-being more into the
[1:03:17] world and and for it to be held
[1:03:19] collectively as well in community. And
[1:03:22] there are that is in itself a very big
[1:03:25] area uh of um and sort of rich area of
[1:03:28] of practice. That's what we uh share
[1:03:32] also through all of our retreats and on
[1:03:34] the SAS course. It's the noble
[1:03:35] eight-fold path. It includes an ethical
[1:03:38] dimension. So we have our five
[1:03:40] mindfulness trainings which also are
[1:03:42] just another way in a sense to
[1:03:43] articulate and to make very um practical
[1:03:47] and realistic uh this theory of change
[1:03:50] like how do we do it in our daily lives.
[1:03:52] Um and it and the in the five
[1:03:54] mindfulness trainings in the text you'll
[1:03:55] find things that concern um you know us
[1:03:59] our intimate relationships our our
[1:04:01] feelings our relation to consumption and
[1:04:04] and and our habits our relationship to
[1:04:06] anger and speech and um and and so on.
[1:04:10] but also uh our relationship to the
[1:04:13] economic system, our you know our
[1:04:14] choices of what companies to invest in
[1:04:17] and why uh and um whether we are
[1:04:20] connected to systems of of oppression
[1:04:22] and exploitation
[1:04:24] um uh and and so on. So, so the five
[1:04:27] mindful strange is a very very beautiful
[1:04:30] kind of articulation of you know this uh
[1:04:33] the path the the how and it's a daily
[1:04:36] mirror also that we can sort of check in
[1:04:38] when we come up against you know tough
[1:04:41] choices like you know what do I do in
[1:04:44] this situation we could it's we can use
[1:04:46] it as as a sort of um compass to to to
[1:04:49] orient
[1:04:51] >> and there is so much more uh that could
[1:04:54] be said this is just the start this a
[1:04:56] sketch. This is just a sort of like you
[1:04:58] know one one lens through which we can
[1:05:01] we can see these practices. But we hope
[1:05:03] that um at least it it it sort of
[1:05:06] stimulates and uh and and and we hope
[1:05:09] also that it that that you felt um that
[1:05:12] your questions had been heard and that
[1:05:15] we're speaking to at least some of them.
[1:05:17] Um and I think like one one more maybe
[1:05:20] important thing to say um is that we
[1:05:23] actually have some evidence that our
[1:05:25] theory of change works. So what are we
[1:05:28] saying? We're saying that if we could
[1:05:31] get deep enough in ourselves with the
[1:05:35] practice of meditation to kind of help
[1:05:39] ourselves channel that vitality
[1:05:42] um not only towards our self-interest
[1:05:44] and survival which of course we're still
[1:05:47] going to have like we still need to know
[1:05:48] that we are to some extent separate that
[1:05:51] that's a that's a helpful lens still you
[1:05:53] know getting on and off buses you don't
[1:05:54] want to think you're one with the bus
[1:05:56] that could be very dangerous so so we do
[1:05:58] need to take care of ourselves as uh
[1:06:01] relatively separate uh individuals.
[1:06:03] That's that's a relevant framing some of
[1:06:05] the time. But there's this other framing
[1:06:07] where we start to see and really feel um
[1:06:10] our being in the world as as part of
[1:06:13] this vast net of inter relations. Um
[1:06:17] and uh
[1:06:19] >> you were going to say the research
[1:06:20] there's been some research conducted.
[1:06:22] >> Thank you Kate. I was totally lost my
[1:06:24] thread but exactly. So, so in a sense
[1:06:26] what we're saying is if we can get deep
[1:06:27] enough, we can change um our our
[1:06:31] worldview from one of separateness to
[1:06:34] one of that's sort of grounded on into
[1:06:36] being. Uh that's our that's our value
[1:06:39] proposition. We say like come to Plum
[1:06:41] Village or join the ZASP course and and
[1:06:44] this will happen. Now that's very
[1:06:46] different from saying come on a
[1:06:48] mindfulness retreat and learn how to
[1:06:50] manage your stress and to you know
[1:06:55] generate some you know I don't know
[1:06:57] handle your emotions you know do do some
[1:06:59] emotional kind of uh management this a
[1:07:02] very very different thing that we're
[1:07:04] offering and of course we are also
[1:07:05] teaching mindfulness we're also going to
[1:07:07] be able to relax and better handle
[1:07:10] stress and better handle our emotions
[1:07:12] all of those things are part of it but
[1:07:14] what we really up to is this very very
[1:07:17] deep shift of
[1:07:20] feeling and thinking perceiving from I'm
[1:07:22] alone and separate to oh I actually
[1:07:26] start to feel connected not just to you
[1:07:29] know we probably agree like conceptually
[1:07:31] that we're interconnected but but how
[1:07:33] often do we feel it how do how how often
[1:07:36] do we feel held in that matrix of
[1:07:38] interconnection so of course we can
[1:07:41] claim that this is going to work is
[1:07:43] going to work it's going to produce this
[1:07:44] feeling of uh interconnection and
[1:07:47] interbeing. But the question is does it
[1:07:49] right? Does it actually work? And this
[1:07:50] has been studied by the wonderful
[1:07:52] scientist Christine Vamsler from Lund
[1:07:55] University. She studied three separate
[1:07:58] cohorts um who went through the ZASP
[1:08:00] course with pre and post questionnaire.
[1:08:02] Had about n of 850 something. So about
[1:08:05] 850 people um you know gave uh you know
[1:08:10] responses to the questionnaire in a way
[1:08:11] that she could sort of ask these
[1:08:13] questions like did your climate anxiety
[1:08:16] measurably go down? Do you feel more
[1:08:19] trust? Uh uh do you feel more power? Do
[1:08:22] you feel more empowered? Do you have
[1:08:23] more a sense of agency? Um and are you
[1:08:27] starting to get glimmers of interbeing?
[1:08:28] And the results, which I'm not going to
[1:08:30] go into because Flo's reminding me we're
[1:08:31] out of time, were overwhelmingly that
[1:08:34] basically yes, this works. Like our
[1:08:36] theory of change does, you know, it does
[1:08:40] to a very great extent the thing that we
[1:08:42] hoped that it was doing and that we
[1:08:44] believed it was doing. Uh but it's very
[1:08:46] very wonderful to to have her her
[1:08:49] reflection on that and that she gets
[1:08:50] that that she gets that's what we're
[1:08:52] actually trying to do.
[1:08:53] >> Yeah. Um
[1:08:54] >> and I was I I don't think I was part of
[1:08:56] that study but I did do this course and
[1:08:58] I want to say that I found it uh really
[1:09:01] deeply connects with my the ecological
[1:09:04] concerns that bringing together the
[1:09:07] foundational teachings of Buddhism with
[1:09:10] that ecological starting point doing it
[1:09:12] together with other people who you know
[1:09:13] share that starting and entry point the
[1:09:15] live sessions I I loved with the
[1:09:17] monastics but I know that one thing that
[1:09:19] many many people value in the Aasp
[1:09:20] course is that you you're invited to get
[1:09:22] into small groups
[1:09:23] that you then you know connect with you
[1:09:26] have zoom sessions with you study
[1:09:28] together you learn together and it's
[1:09:30] that human connection and the listening
[1:09:31] and being heard by your small cohort
[1:09:34] that many many people come out and say
[1:09:36] this was really an important part and
[1:09:38] even though it was online I was so
[1:09:40] connected with real people on their own
[1:09:43] journeys and the comfort that we feel
[1:09:46] from knowing that others are
[1:09:47] experiencing some of the same things so
[1:09:49] I think it's a very beautifully designed
[1:09:50] course
[1:09:51] >> um from that respect And if anybody's
[1:09:53] thinking of it, I individually can
[1:09:55] recommend it very much.
[1:09:57] >> And and I think one more thing that
[1:09:59] Christine sort of revealed through her
[1:10:01] research is I mean that's the big
[1:10:04] proposition of this whole session in a
[1:10:06] sense that there is this powerful
[1:10:08] connection between the inner
[1:10:09] transformation and the outer change.
[1:10:11] Yes.
[1:10:11] >> And and there were like really strong
[1:10:14] indications like I don't want to
[1:10:15] overclaim it like it's worth reading the
[1:10:16] paper maybe you know you could just read
[1:10:18] the abstract and the discussion at the
[1:10:20] end. Uh it's very very beautiful. Maybe
[1:10:22] Flo can give us the link uh if for
[1:10:24] anybody who wants to to to read her her
[1:10:27] her sort of what her findings. Um but
[1:10:30] she found you know strong indications
[1:10:32] that that this does actually already
[1:10:34] start to ripple up into systems change.
[1:10:36] Um and there's some amazing examples of
[1:10:38] that. I mean in a sense Cristiana
[1:10:40] Faggeres and her work with the Paris
[1:10:42] climate agreement is already a powerful
[1:10:44] example of that. you know, she went to
[1:10:46] some retreats at our center in Germany
[1:10:47] and then in in in in Plum Village and
[1:10:50] she credits her ability um to help
[1:10:53] shepherd this massive international
[1:10:56] agreement, this cooperation, this, you
[1:10:58] know, collaboration um the deep
[1:11:01] listening, you know, to to the
[1:11:04] transformation um that she started
[1:11:06] experiencing uh through the Plum Village
[1:11:08] retreats. And now that's rippling out.
[1:11:10] That was one person but that has now
[1:11:13] reached you know what did clerk flow say
[1:11:16] nearly eight seven 8,000 people through
[1:11:19] zasp another at least a thousand through
[1:11:22] the climate retreats in plum village
[1:11:24] >> and so you know I think the evidence is
[1:11:27] going to start accumulating of of of
[1:11:29] like real concrete stuff that this is
[1:11:31] now uh allowing to to to to manifest uh
[1:11:35] in the world
[1:11:38] >> it's fantastic it's fantastic to hear
[1:11:40] that research. I'm sure we should hand
[1:11:42] back to flow to keep ourselves in flow
[1:11:44] of this session. Thank you, brother.
[1:11:47] >> Thank you, Kate. And thank you, Siri.
[1:11:49] >> Thank you, Siri.
[1:11:50] >> Thank you to our wonderful scribe.
[1:11:52] >> Great scribe.
[1:11:53] >> Thank you so much, Kate, brother. And of
[1:11:57] course, Siri, our wonderful scribe. Um,
[1:12:00] wow, what a beautiful uh rich sharing um
[1:12:04] yeah, that you've gifted us with today.
[1:12:07] Um and because we're running short of
[1:12:09] time, my dear colleague Sophie is just
[1:12:11] sharing a slide um with you now, dear
[1:12:14] friends. Um because we promised this, uh
[1:12:17] event would be 1 hour and 15 minutes and
[1:12:19] we don't want to go too much over to
[1:12:21] respect your time. Um but we would love
[1:12:23] to invite you all to join us to deepen
[1:12:25] this journey on the Zen and the Art of
[1:12:27] Saving the Planet online course. Um we
[1:12:30] would love to gift you um 20% off the
[1:12:34] standard rate of the course if you if
[1:12:36] you use the code inner change when you
[1:12:38] sign up for the course in the next 5
[1:12:40] days. Um that will be possible and we
[1:12:43] will email you all of the details
[1:12:45] including um the wonderful research that
[1:12:47] brother Fatlin referred to then um from
[1:12:50] Christine Bonsler who I know is on the
[1:12:53] call today as well and so wonderful to
[1:12:55] have you here Christine. Um but what we
[1:12:57] would love to do now is also we're gonna
[1:12:59] reopen the chat box. So um because Kate
[1:13:02] there shared some experiences that she
[1:13:04] had with the course and if you anyone
[1:13:06] wants to we've run out of time a little
[1:13:08] bit now but if anyone wants to share
[1:13:09] their words of thanks and or briefly
[1:13:11] their experiences with the course for
[1:13:12] alumni that are with us now that would
[1:13:14] be wonderful. And for anyone that hasn't
[1:13:16] done the course, please uh yeah, join us
[1:13:19] and and continue to explore many of the
[1:13:22] themes that have been um raised so
[1:13:25] inspiringly today by brother Patlin and
[1:13:28] Kate Rayworth. Um so yeah, I think that
[1:13:32] um we yeah, lovely to see your chat box
[1:13:34] messages coming in on Zoom. Um I think I
[1:13:37] would love to um hand the final word
[1:13:39] back to Kate and Brother Fatlin. Um if
[1:13:42] there's anything you would like to share
[1:13:44] just to uh thank everyone and say
[1:13:46] goodbye um before we unmute people so
[1:13:49] they can say goodbye themselves.
[1:13:50] >> I'd love to jump in and say this is a a
[1:13:53] pleasure and an honor for me to to join
[1:13:55] to bring the western mindset of
[1:13:57] economics through the beautiful funnel
[1:13:59] of plum villages into being
[1:14:02] enlightenment so that we can generate a
[1:14:04] new economy together. I've seen that
[1:14:06] some people have said, could we share
[1:14:07] the the the blackboard drawing?
[1:14:10] Absolutely. We will make sure that is
[1:14:11] shared. Um over to you, brother.
[1:14:14] >> Yeah. And I think um I think Kate
[1:14:16] already said it, but that you know,
[1:14:18] coming up the other side, what are the
[1:14:19] new emerging paradigms and and and so on
[1:14:23] like that's what we're going to do alto
[1:14:25] together like none nobody's going to
[1:14:27] come up with that on their own. Like we
[1:14:29] need everybody on board. Everybody's
[1:14:31] intelligence, creativity, and their
[1:14:33] insight, their wisdom. um for those uh
[1:14:37] new and also old paradigms maybe to
[1:14:39] emerge that the new could also be very
[1:14:41] ancient, you know. So we also need um
[1:14:44] other ways of knowing. We need the
[1:14:45] indigenous ways of knowing uh you know
[1:14:48] to to welcome them back into our
[1:14:52] collective shared understanding. Um uh
[1:14:55] and and also maybe even th those of us
[1:14:57] who who are kind of you know born in in
[1:15:01] Europe or in the US and and feel that we
[1:15:04] don't that we're not very rooted that
[1:15:05] we're not connected to our indigenity
[1:15:08] those threads it might be possible to
[1:15:10] reconnect with that too to to find the
[1:15:12] threads of wisdom in our bones in our
[1:15:15] deep roots. Um anyway so yes let's
[1:15:19] decolonize I see that coming up in the
[1:15:21] chat. I'm yeah we decolonize our
[1:15:23] thinking, decolonize our feeling um and
[1:15:26] of course decolonize all of our
[1:15:27] institutions um and and and so on and uh
[1:15:31] it's just so fun to do this work
[1:15:34] together and I I just want to say again
[1:15:36] don't take the I know we will share the
[1:15:38] blackboard don't take it too seriously
[1:15:41] it's just a version
[1:15:43] all work in progress and there will be
[1:15:45] many more iterations and also what we
[1:15:47] unfolded this day to today was was in a
[1:15:50] sense
[1:15:51] If we unpack this methodology through
[1:15:54] the lens of economics, this is how uh it
[1:15:57] it sort of shakes out. One way it shakes
[1:15:59] out, but we could we could do that
[1:16:01] through many other disciplines as well
[1:16:03] and and concerns. Um so so there's lots
[1:16:07] more there to to unfold
[1:16:09] >> and that might actually be a beautiful
[1:16:10] activity for many people on the webinar
[1:16:12] to take that framework and say they
[1:16:14] heard us make that what's their own
[1:16:16] disciplinary worldview journey to go on.
[1:16:20] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:16:20] >> And in a sense, that's also what I spent
[1:16:22] the last four years doing in this book
[1:16:24] that's going to come out next year
[1:16:26] called Wonder uh where science meets
[1:16:28] Zen. And and I'm I'm really trying to do
[1:16:31] that also for the whole of scientific
[1:16:34] materialism. It's like how do we, you
[1:16:37] know, get to the roots of scientific
[1:16:38] materialism and unpick it and allow a
[1:16:40] new scientific paradigm to to to emerge.
[1:16:44] Um yes. So that will come out next year.
[1:16:48] So so much richness still to come dear
[1:16:51] friends as you can hear. Um and we feel
[1:16:53] like this uh event as well as being an
[1:16:56] invitation to the zen and the out of
[1:16:57] saving the planet course is also yeah
[1:16:59] going to be the start of many many
[1:17:01] things uh many unfoldings. So, thank you
[1:17:03] so much again, Kate and brother. And um
[1:17:06] we've enabled Thank you so much for all
[1:17:08] of the beautiful messages in the Zoom
[1:17:09] chat as well. And dear friends on Zoom,
[1:17:12] we've made it possible for you to unmute
[1:17:14] yourselves if you would like to say
[1:17:15] goodbye.
[1:17:20] >> Bye everyone.
[1:17:24] Everybody nice.