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Inspire

From Morning Drinking to 340-MileDesert Runner: One Man's Redemption

RR
Rich Roll
Sep 3, 2026
8 min read

By age 17, Tommie Runz had already experienced one of the most accelerated descents into alcoholism imaginable. A single drink at a high school party spiraled into daily drinking within two weeks—a trajectory so compressed that it seemed almost impossible. Yet for nearly two decades, he would become one of the rare "functional" alcoholics, someone who could hide the damage behind a job, a family, and the appearance of stability. Today, nine years sober, a vegan plant-based athlete, and the accomplished runner who soloed across 340 miles of desert landscape, Tommie has become an unlikely ambassador for recovery and representation in a community where Black runners remain a visible rarity. His story isn't one of rock bottom and redemption—it's one of radical transformation, paid forward.

Read · 8 sections

What pulled him toward that first drink?

Growing up just outside Detroit, Tommie lost his father to a stroke at age 8. His father was 39. The absence was compounded by a kind of mythic presence: people spoke of his dad in reverent terms, as someone almost impossible to measure up to. Carrying the same name as his father, Tommie felt caught between an identity he couldn't escape and a man he'd never know. His mother, a single parent, hustled to create stability, and there was genuine warmth in their home. But the confusion—the searching for something to fill the space of a missing father—never quite left.

High school felt fractured. Tommie was good enough academically, but he lacked something he couldn't name. Then came senior year. A classroom escape, a blackout, and suddenly drinking every day. Not gradually, not experimentally. Every day, for two weeks, until the pattern had already calcified into addiction. "That's like the most accelerated case of alcoholism I've ever heard," Rich Roll observed during their conversation. Tommie laughed. "Well, the story hasn't even finished yet."

How did he hide it for so long?

The term "functional alcoholic" carries a deceptive weight. The word "functional" is the wrong word entirely, as Tommie would later understand. What he was doing was surviving—holding down work, showing up as a father, maintaining enough of a facade that the people around him didn't connect the dots. He drank in the mornings before work. He drank at night. He managed to conceal it, to hide it, to keep moving through the day as if everything were fine. For years, he watched his behavior escalate. For years, he told himself it was manageable.

The real cost wasn't visible in any immediate wreckage. It was accumulating in his nervous system, his self-respect, his sense of what was possible. He knew, on some level, that this was how he would die. And he was making peace with that knowledge.

What happened on the day everything changed?

There's a moment—sometimes a single conversation, sometimes a slow crescendo—when a person stops being able to live with themselves. For Tommie, it arrived. He walked into a recovery meeting. He sat among people who had lived similar trajectories, heard their stories, and felt something shift. "The meetings saved my life," he said. "There wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober."

This wasn't a miraculous conversion or a sudden clarity. It was the hard, unglamorous work of showing up in a room with other people who understood the specific loneliness of addiction, and allowing himself to be known. He entered the 12-step program. He worked through the steps. He listened to the experience, strength, and hope of people who had walked the road before him. And he stayed sober.

How did running enter the picture?

Around the same time Tommie was finding his footing in recovery, he discovered a book: Rich Roll's *Finding Ultra*. The narrative spoke to something deeper than just running—it was a story of transformation, of someone who had been lost and found themselves through commitment, discipline, and a willingness to reimagine what the body and mind could do. Tommie began to run.

What made this move radical, in his own life, was something rarely discussed in mainstream running culture. Tommie is a Black man from Detroit. Running, plant-based eating, sobriety, and the ultramarathon community were not cultural touchstones in his family or neighborhood. He was, in his own words, on his own—looking for material, for information, for examples of people who looked like him and had made this journey. He found almost none.

But he kept running. In 2024 alone, he completed six marathons, including the Osaka Marathon just seven days before running Tokyo. The accumulated volume, the discipline, the rhythmic meditation of moving his body mile after mile—this became a new way of processing the world. Running, unlike alcohol, didn't lie to him. It didn't promise relief that came with a price. It simply returned what he put in.

What does it mean to run 340 miles across the desert?

The Speed Project—a 340-mile run from Los Angeles to Las Vegas—represents the kind of ultramarathon that exists at the edge of human endurance. The heat alone, sometimes reaching 130 degrees, becomes a variable that redefines suffering. Tommie ran it solo. Not in a group, not with a support team pacing him through the night. Alone.

The psychology of such a feat has nothing to do with ambition in the conventional sense. It's about something more primal: the ability to stay in motion when everything in your body and mind is telling you to stop. It's about making a decision to continue when stopping would be the rational choice. For someone in recovery, the parallels are direct. You don't get sober because it's easy or convenient. You get sober because staying sober becomes the only option that allows you to live with yourself.

Running, for Tommie, isn't escape. It's the same commitment he learned in the rooms: showing up, one day at a time, doing the work, regardless of how you feel. The desert simply makes that commitment visible.

Why does representation in running matter so much to him?

In his 2021 voicemail to the Rich Roll podcast, Tommie described a loneliness he couldn't quite articulate. "Sober vegan runner isn't normally synonymous with like the Black community," he said. "Veganism is just not a thing in the black community for real... I was just kind of on my own looking for material and information."

The trail-running community has been shaped, predominantly, by white narratives and white bodies. When Tommie began to show up in that space—Black, sober, plant-based, accomplished—he became a visible refutation of the quiet assumption that this world wasn't made for people like him. He started a running company. He built a platform on Instagram. He began interviewing athletes and advocates, creating content that showed other young Black people that sobriety, veganism, and ultramarathoning weren't contradictions. They were possible.

This work—what Tommie calls "diversifying the trail community"—isn't tokenism or performative. It's about removing the invisibility that had surrounded his own path. When a young Black runner sees Tommie at a race, sees him thriving, sees him celebrated, the message is clear: this is for you too. This belongs to you.

What does it mean to pay it forward?

In the recovery world, there's a concept called "paying it forward." You hear the experience, strength, and hope of people who came before you. You apply those lessons to your own life. And then you turn around and offer the same gift to someone else. Tommie embodied this principle so completely that it became his calling.

He's out at races, visible, sharing his story. He's creating content that speaks to communities unfamiliar with ultramarathoning. He's on podcasts, interviewed by the same voices who inspired him in early sobriety. He's no longer just a runner who happens to be sober. He's become a guide for others who are walking the same path—whether that's sobriety, plant-based living, or simply the courage to claim space in a world that wasn't obviously designed for them.

When asked how it felt to listen to his old voicemail, recorded five or six years into his sobriety, Tommie said: "It makes it feel like sitting here feel surreal... I'm proud of me then. Like it's kind of cringey hearing it, but it's I'm proud that like I'm still finding out like still like trying to find out who I am in this journey but then also like trying to help people along the way."

That curiosity about who he is—the willingness to keep discovering himself while simultaneously reaching back to help others—may be the most important thing Tommie Runz teaches. Sobriety isn't a destination. It's an ongoing inquiry. And the same is true of running, of community, of representation. The work is never finished. The only question is whether you keep moving.

Where to go from here

If you're curious about Tommie's work and story, you can find him on Instagram and through his podcast, where he continues to interview athletes and advocates from underrepresented communities in running and recovery. His journey speaks to anyone wrestling with addiction, searching for identity, or wondering what becomes possible on the other side of transformation. The Speed Project documentation offers a window into the psychology of ultramarathoning and what it means to persist when everything says to quit. For those in early sobriety, his story is a concrete example of what "and then what?" looks like—not just survival, but genuine thriving, contribution, and the building of something that serves others.

Transcript

[0:01] I don't know when the morning drinking

[0:02] started, but that was a standard. And

[0:04] I'm just like, I'm going to die like

[0:06] this. Like, this is how I die.

[0:08] >> He's sober. He's an accomplished runner.

[0:10] He's making a positive impact on the

[0:12] world. Prepare to be inspired because

[0:15] today you're going to hear the

[0:16] experience, strength, and hope of Tommy

[0:19] Runs.

[0:19] >> 17 years old, senior year, I think it

[0:21] was. Ran out of the classroom and then

[0:24] like passed out. All of a sudden, I'm

[0:25] drinking every day for 2 weeks. That's

[0:27] like the most accelerated case of

[0:30] alcoholism I've ever heard. Well, hold

[0:32] on. You The story hasn't [laughter] even

[0:33] The story hasn't even finished yet.

[0:36] The meetings saved my life. There

[0:39] wouldn't be any running if I didn't get

[0:40] sober. I did Osaka Marathon 7 days

[0:43] before Tokyo. Six or seven marathons in

[0:46] a year. The speed project from LA to Las

[0:48] Vegas, 340 mi. How do you continue? How

[0:52] do you make that decision for yourself

[0:54] even though like everything's telling

[0:55] you to stop? So, how do you do that? Um,

[0:59] [music]

[1:03] >> all right, Tommy, before we even get

[1:05] into it, Dan over here dug into the

[1:07] archives and I want to share something

[1:09] with you.

[1:12] >> Hello, Rich Roll podcast. This is Tommy

[1:15] Runs. I think it's important to mention

[1:17] that I'm a young black guy from Detroit

[1:20] area. Went sober, then went vegan, then

[1:24] started running. and sober vegan runner

[1:27] isn't normally synonymous with like the

[1:28] black community. So, it was just so much

[1:30] different for me to be going down this

[1:32] road and I was kind of like on my own

[1:34] with it. You know, the veganism is just

[1:36] not a thing in the black community for

[1:37] real. I mean, it's getting better now

[1:39] for sure. But at the time, like I didn't

[1:41] know anybody that was vegan that's black

[1:43] or that was in my circle or even close

[1:45] to my circle. So, I was just kind of on

[1:47] my own looking for material and

[1:50] information. uh found finding ultra and

[1:53] it just spoke so much like to me. Um

[1:55] I've been in AA and went through the

[1:58] program. Love the program. Programs

[2:00] helped me so much in so many ways that I

[2:02] mean I just I feel like I'm indebted to

[2:04] those people in those rooms in those

[2:06] tables. So hearing that Rich went

[2:07] through the same process in so many

[2:09] different ways from a different side of

[2:10] the world to me. Um but then also felt

[2:13] like all the same feelings and all the

[2:15] same like just troubles, you know? It

[2:18] just made me feel at home reading the

[2:19] book. And then so I started watching the

[2:21] show and it seems like every time that I

[2:24] was trying to make a new like direction

[2:25] in my life, the podcast had a guest on

[2:29] it that was perfect for that moment,

[2:30] perfect for the past, the moments that

[2:32] just passed that I needed to get over or

[2:34] someone that was inspiring me to move on

[2:36] to the next step and kind of reach

[2:38] forward. My journey went from desperate

[2:42] to thriving with running veganism. Now I

[2:45] have a running company. I have my own

[2:47] little personal brand on Instagram. Now

[2:49] I'm working with companies. I've been

[2:51] able to interview and I have a podcast.

[2:53] I've been able to interview some of the

[2:54] people that and have ended up on your

[2:56] show as well to help people just kind of

[2:59] navigate through these things and

[3:00] through these times. I super appreciate

[3:02] how much time you spent on talking about

[3:04] the black community uh and the issues in

[3:07] 2020 that arose and came back to the

[3:09] forefront. So I appreciate you. Tommy

[3:11] runs. Thanks Rich. Namaste.

[3:15] >> So that was 2021.

[3:17] >> Yeah. So like five five six years ago um

[3:22] >> I had forgotten about that and Dan

[3:24] unearthed it and uh it was so fun to

[3:27] listen to that today you know.

[3:29] >> I happily forgot about that. [laughter]

[3:31] >> So how does that make you feel hearing

[3:33] that now like so many years down the

[3:35] line from where you were at that moment?

[3:38] Um, it makes it feel like sitting here

[3:40] feel surreal because I know how much um

[3:43] I know like what role that book and your

[3:46] podcast and the beginning of my sobriety

[3:48] in running. Um, I just I just know how

[3:52] much it all meant to me to like see

[3:54] somebody thriving and working cuz before

[3:58] sobriety, I just didn't know like what

[4:00] life was on the other side of that and

[4:02] like who I would be. So to to get into

[4:04] it and be curious about like

[4:06] self-improvement and all that stuff, um

[4:09] to catch all that, you know, catch your

[4:11] your your content and your story at that

[4:14] time. It was like a big deal for me. So

[4:16] I was really happy to be able to like

[4:17] have a moment to record my thoughts and

[4:19] like send it to you, you know, whether

[4:21] you used it or not. So it's like surreal

[4:23] for me to be sitting here. Um and I

[4:26] guess I'm proud of me then. Like it

[4:27] makes me feel kind of proud. Like it's

[4:28] kind of cringey hearing it, but it's I'm

[4:31] proud that like I'm still

[4:33] finding out like still like trying to

[4:35] find out who I am in this journey but

[4:37] then also like trying to help people

[4:39] along the way. Mhm. I'm very moved

[4:41] listening to that. Uh and knowing you uh

[4:45] now you're paying it forward like this

[4:48] is what we do, you know, this is what we

[4:50] learn in the rooms. Like you hear the

[4:52] experience, strength and hope, you put

[4:55] it into practice in your own life and

[4:56] then you

[4:58] >> turn your head around, you put your head

[4:59] on a swivel and then you pay it forward

[5:01] for somebody else. And this is just an

[5:03] example of that. And I think this

[5:04] journey that you've been on is

[5:06] >> so beautiful. You know, we first met at

[5:09] the running event. How many What year

[5:10] was that?

[5:11] >> 2021.

[5:12] >> 2021. Yeah. So, maybe it was Was that

[5:15] after before? It must have been It had

[5:17] to have been after, right? It was we

[5:18] were introduced uh by our mutual friend

[5:21] Russell Nadal. Uh shout out, Russell.

[5:23] >> Shout out Russell.

[5:23] >> Thanks for making the introduction. And

[5:26] uh I've been able to kind of watch from

[5:28] afar as you really embraced sharing your

[5:32] story uh your story of addiction and

[5:34] redemption uh and your running journey

[5:38] and it just continues to blossom and it

[5:40] feels like you're really hitting your

[5:41] stride right now and you're connecting

[5:43] with people uh you're out at all the

[5:46] races, you're creating content and

[5:48] you're inspiring all kinds of people

[5:51] particularly uh you know communities

[5:54] that are unfamiliar with this world that

[5:57] you are now like very much a part of.

[5:59] >> I appreciate that.

[6:00] >> Yeah. Uh let's do uh a little walk into

[6:04] the past. I want to take it all the way

[6:06] back to you know growing up in in in

[6:08] Detroit or just outside Detroit.

[6:10] >> Yeah. Um all right. So when I was one

[6:13] year I'm playing um

[6:15] >> it's far back. It's you know we're we're

[6:17] going to do what it was like what

[6:19] happened and what it's like now.

[6:20] >> Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. So, like I grew

[6:22] up um I was born in New York and um my

[6:26] mother and father separated when I was

[6:27] five. So, then we moved back to Detroit.

[6:29] My whole mom's side of the family is

[6:30] from Detroit. And like my mom was just

[6:36] like single mother kind of like from

[6:37] that point on. My dad passed away when I

[6:39] was uh 8 years old. He died of a of a

[6:42] stroke at 39 years old.

[6:44] >> Um

[6:45] >> and you're 41 now.

[6:47] >> About to be 42 now. To be 42. Yeah. So

[6:49] like the my 39th [clears throat]

[6:50] year was like I was my I was in my head

[6:52] so crazy, you know.

[6:54] >> By the way, you look like you're like

[6:55] 26. It's crazy. You're like ageless.

[6:58] It's insane.

[6:59] >> I heard some like some some saying like

[7:00] black don't crack or whatever. But I

[7:02] grew up without him, you know, and my

[7:05] mom did such a great job of like really

[7:08] hustling and trying to make everything

[7:10] work for me and my sister, you know,

[7:12] like and it was really

[7:16] like a great place to be, you know, to

[7:19] grow up because there was just so much

[7:20] diversity in some of those schools. But

[7:22] at the same time, like I felt lost, you

[7:27] know, like, and I'm not sure if it was,

[7:29] you know, probably because my dad passed

[7:30] and I didn't have like I'm the third, so

[7:32] I have the same name as him, you know,

[7:34] and I just always was like trying to

[7:36] chase this or thought of chasing this

[7:38] person that I didn't really know that

[7:40] like people spoke so highly of like it

[7:42] wasn't like, oh, your dad was cool or

[7:44] whatever. It's like the people that

[7:45] talked about him, it it made me feel um

[7:48] like I could never be that. your kid

[7:51] growing up, confused, uh, not feeling

[7:55] great about yourself, like what was your

[7:58] kind of journey through like junior high

[8:01] school and the early years of high

[8:02] school? Like, who are you hanging out

[8:03] with? Like, what kind of kids? Like,

[8:04] where did you fit in?

[8:06] >> I was not like the cool kids and I

[8:09] wasn't like like

[8:10] >> That's crazy cuz you're so [ __ ] cool.

[8:12] >> It took a long time. I was like, I need

[8:14] some fashion advice, but go ahead.

[8:16] >> You're doing good. You're doing good. I

[8:17] like this. I like this whole look.

[8:18] >> Yeah, I thought a lot about this. I was

[8:20] like, Tommy's coming in. I got to like I

[8:22] got to I got to take this seriously now.

[8:24] >> One thing I wish I could do is grow a

[8:25] beard. And you know, every time you grow

[8:27] >> I saw your video about that. You It'll

[8:29] Well, yeah. I guess Well, I guess you're

[8:31] 40 [laughter] years old. You about to

[8:33] gaslight my beard is going to come in.

[8:35] >> For those that don't know, like you can

[8:36] see it on Tommy's Instagram. He did a

[8:38] video where where he's like, "I wish I

[8:40] could grow a beard." So, you had AI. You

[8:41] had AI lock you up with a beard. And I

[8:44] was like, "Oh, you look like Denzel

[8:46] Washington's son and tenant." Like, it's

[8:47] pretty badass. Yeah. Like it it looked

[8:49] pretty good. Yeah. So you're like I'm

[8:51] going to go to Turkey and get

[8:52] >> hair transplants on my face.

[8:54] >> I'm traumatized at this point now.

[8:56] >> But like you got so much on top of your

[8:57] head.

[8:58] >> Yeah.

[8:58] >> Going on, you know? You get one or the

[9:00] other. I think,

[9:02] >> you know,

[9:02] >> I guess I guess [laughter]

[9:04] I feel like there's people with both,

[9:05] but whatever. You know, um

[9:07] >> we can't have everything.

[9:08] >> No, you really can't. Um but yeah. So

[9:11] like I don't even know. What was the

[9:12] question?

[9:13] >> I don't know either. Uh what you weren't

[9:15] with the cool kids. Who were you? Who

[9:17] who was your hang?

[9:18] >> Yeah. So like I was kind of like I was I

[9:20] was like in the middle like I was trying

[9:22] to I was like kind of watching the cool

[9:23] kids do their cool kid good things you

[9:25] know like cuz we just didn't have like

[9:27] you know the school I grew up in cool

[9:29] meant you had the all the nice stuff you

[9:31] know you had all the you had the iceberg

[9:33] you know sweaters and the whatever jeans

[9:36] um and that was the vibe and and if you

[9:39] didn't have that you were just kind of

[9:40] like had to watch it happen. So, like I

[9:42] was friends with all of them, but I was

[9:44] just like on the outside because I just

[9:45] wasn't that cool, you know, like to them

[9:47] because of like what I wore.

[9:49] >> But I was always everybody knew me, I

[9:50] knew them, and I just felt like I was

[9:52] just kind of meandering through this

[9:54] like, you know, middle school, high

[9:56] school experience. It was like watching

[9:58] what I wanted to be, which like just

[10:01] kind of like tore me up a bit because

[10:03] like I was friends with all of them, but

[10:05] I just wasn't I didn't feel like I was

[10:07] okay or cool enough to come like walk to

[10:09] like the you know the heaters that they

[10:10] used to sit on like in the hallway in

[10:12] the school, you know, and it was it was

[10:16] like strange, but I've always had like a

[10:19] few friends. I've never been the person

[10:21] that had like 20 friends at a time,

[10:23] which is kind of counter like what I was

[10:25] what I wanted. But I wanted all of them

[10:26] to be my friend. But in reality, like

[10:29] I'm the type of person that has like

[10:30] two, three friends that I rock with and

[10:33] hopefully till like death do us part

[10:35] type of vibe. And so like middle school

[10:38] and high school was like a weird thing

[10:41] for me. Like I was I wasn't great at

[10:43] school. I didn't like homework. I could

[10:46] pass any test that you give me. Um just

[10:49] because I was in the class like I could

[10:50] figure it out on the test day. But I

[10:52] never [snorts] really like applied

[10:54] myself like just ever um at that point.

[10:57] And maybe it was cuz I was trying to not

[11:00] look like I was trying hard.

[11:02] >> Mhm.

[11:02] >> But it just left me in this like limbo

[11:04] of like are we trying to do this life or

[11:06] not? And if if I can't be as cool as

[11:08] them, then maybe I don't want to try. Um

[11:10] but I started golfing in like 8th grade

[11:14] or something like that, which was

[11:15] definitely also different at that time,

[11:17] but that was like the Tiger Woods era,

[11:19] so it was okay enough. But that kind of

[11:22] gave me some like purpose through

[11:23] through high school, which was like make

[11:25] sure my grades were good enough to cont

[11:27] to play. And I was like pretty decent,

[11:30] but I was also still pretty short at

[11:32] that point. And so it just didn't allow

[11:34] me to like like flourish in the way that

[11:36] I thought I wanted to. But it kind of

[11:37] gave me purpose to kind of connect those

[11:39] years of making sure I didn't like flunk

[11:41] out of school. Um so

[11:43] >> so no track and field, no cross country,

[11:46] basketball, no running,

[11:48] >> golf.

[11:48] >> Yeah. Like so like all the sports that I

[11:50] played were just all like neighborhood

[11:51] stuff. Like we had a bunch of kids in

[11:53] our neighborhood and we used to play

[11:54] every sport like possible. If somebody

[11:55] watched a movie about football, we're

[11:57] playing football the next day for sure.

[11:59] >> But so I've always been athletic, but I

[12:01] I never I didn't play any like high

[12:03] school um sports except for on the golf

[12:05] team.

[12:06] >> So when does drinking enter the picture?

[12:09] >> Drinking enters um in the hallway. Um 17

[12:13] years old, senior year I think it was.

[12:15] Um, and my friend brought like these

[12:18] little nips, you know, little bottles.

[12:20] Uh, he like got them from his mom or

[12:22] something like that or stole them from

[12:23] his mom. And he's like, "You want some?"

[12:26] And I'm like, "Sure." So, the first

[12:27] drink I took, it was like all of a

[12:30] sudden I didn't care about what I

[12:33] thought everybody else thought. It was

[12:35] like the moment of like fake clarity,

[12:38] like, "Oh my god, I can I don't care

[12:40] anymore. I can be myself." And then once

[12:43] people start realizing I was drinking

[12:44] cuz then I just went from those couple

[12:46] little nips to like trying to find out

[12:48] like next day like how can I drink more

[12:49] of this stuff? Do you have more? And

[12:51] then I found out ways to try to get some

[12:53] of my own. So I went from not drinking

[12:55] at all really um having a family of in

[12:58] my dad's side of the family is a

[12:59] drinking family. Um or at least that's

[13:02] what my my my view of it um to like all

[13:06] of a sudden I'm drinking every day for 2

[13:08] weeks

[13:09] >> just like that. just like a light switch

[13:11] got flicked.

[13:11] >> Yeah. Like it was like I mean it was

[13:13] like fast friends like I need tomorrow

[13:16] like or today. I need this like now like

[13:18] cuz if I can walk into school and not

[13:20] like think that everybody's looking at

[13:21] me weird cuz or whatever then that's

[13:24] what I want. And

[13:25] >> did it go [clears throat] immediately to

[13:27] drinking like before going into school

[13:29] like in the morning?

[13:30] >> I was just looking forward to after.

[13:33] >> No no it was in school. Wow.

[13:34] >> It was cuz I needed it in school in my

[13:36] head. Yeah. like right away. Like, so

[13:38] that's like the most accelerated case of

[13:40] alcoholism I think I've ever heard.

[13:42] >> Well, hold on. You the story hasn't even

[13:44] the story hasn't even finished yet. So,

[13:47] like two weeks into the drinking thing.

[13:49] Um, this is the first time I've said

[13:51] this uh on on microphone before. So,

[13:54] this is funny. Um, so the first into two

[13:56] two weeks into drinking, there was a pep

[13:57] rally day and I had gotten whatever

[14:01] liquor that I thought I needed or

[14:02] whatever. And I drank so much cuz like

[14:07] even in that first two weeks, people

[14:08] realized like I had a drink on me. So

[14:10] they would be like wanting the drinks.

[14:11] All the cool kids, oh, let me take a

[14:12] sip. Let me take a sip. So like then all

[14:14] of a sudden I needed to have extra, you

[14:16] know? And then so I'm drinking

[14:18] throughout this whole day, this pep

[14:19] rally day. It's only a half day. By the

[14:22] time like before the pep rally, it was

[14:23] only like two hours into school. Like I

[14:26] wake up and I'm on the floor in the

[14:29] bathroom,

[14:31] passed out with my mom, my principal,

[14:35] and like the security layers on like

[14:37] standing over me cuz I had like ran out

[14:39] of the classroom and then like passed

[14:41] out. And that was two weeks into my

[14:45] alcoholic like journey.

[14:47] >> Wow, that's wild. Like I tell that like

[14:50] cuz it's probably my mom's probably like

[14:51] you did not have to tell that story. But

[14:53] it's just like it just that just shows

[14:54] like how powerful like alcoholism

[14:56] alcoholism is because like in any other

[14:59] scenario that happens to you that fast

[15:02] into this thing you're scared straight.

[15:04] You scared away like I I can't obviously

[15:06] that's not for me. I can't handle it.

[15:08] >> But what I did was like slowly like okay

[15:10] well if I can't drink liquor right away

[15:12] cuz I just can't even smell it cuz it's

[15:14] just too it just sends me off. Maybe

[15:16] I'll just drink some beer. like as I got

[15:18] back into it. So, I like slowly like

[15:19] weaned myself back into it because I

[15:21] just needed to have like that feeling

[15:22] again.

[15:23] >> Uh yeah, a normal person would be

[15:25] appalled and say, "Yeah, no more of that

[15:28] for me." But the reason that it happened

[15:30] is because you're not that guy. Like

[15:32] from the first drink, you're like,

[15:33] >> "Oh, this is the solution to all my

[15:35] problems. This just makes me finally

[15:37] feel comfortable in my own skin."

[15:39] >> And you begin to realize like how

[15:41] uncomfortable you've been all along. as

[15:43] if all the cool kids had this operating

[15:46] manual for life and they're all walking

[15:48] around feeling great about themselves

[15:49] and and now you've discovered this

[15:52] elixir of life that allows you to feel

[15:54] the way that you assume everyone else

[15:56] feels all the time.

[15:57] >> Yeah, it was a cure to to like the pain

[15:59] that I felt like I was going through

[16:01] every single day.

[16:03] >> And that's the thing that gets missed, I

[16:05] think, too often in discussions around

[16:08] alcoholism and recovery. Like it works.

[16:11] >> That's why you're doing it. you know, it

[16:13] is a solution to a problem. It's not the

[16:16] problem.

[16:17] >> The problem is, you know, you feeling

[16:20] uncomfortable in your own skin and why

[16:22] that's the case, right? And until you

[16:24] heal that or find a solution for that,

[16:27] >> uh, you're going to continue to drink.

[16:29] >> Yeah.

[16:33] >> This episode is brought to you by Whoop.

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[19:22] That's such a extreme kind of episode

[19:26] where, you know, even a young person is

[19:28] going to know immediately like, oh, this

[19:30] is like like my my thing with this

[19:33] drinking is different than

[19:35] my classmates.

[19:37] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not that you're going

[19:38] to do anything about it. But you're like

[19:40] you you make a mental note of it.

[19:41] >> I knew I was an alcoholic

[19:42] >> and like you don't want to be the guy

[19:43] who's passing out. So you realize like I

[19:45] got to reel it in, but I got to find a

[19:47] way to be able to continue doing this.

[19:49] >> Yeah. Like you have to it's like okay

[19:50] lesson learned instead of you know

[19:52] lesson learned. Here's how I can do this

[19:53] better, you know, and be I don't want to

[19:55] be that extreme cuz that's that's

[19:57] abnormal as well. I'm not going to fit

[19:58] into the cool kids if I'm laying in the

[20:00] bathroom floor. But how do I like how do

[20:02] I weave this into my life in a way that

[20:04] can allow me to be functional? And I

[20:06] think that like the functional

[20:07] alcoholic, the term that's the most

[20:09] dangerous

[20:11] term that is thrown around like in

[20:13] society to me because that's the issue

[20:16] cuz you if you're if you have a job, if

[20:18] you're moving forward, if you're going

[20:19] to school, doing the things, you're

[20:20] you're not on the side of the road, you

[20:23] know, drunk all the all day. You feel

[20:25] like you're normal in some way. And then

[20:27] you it just lets you just pass time and

[20:30] continue to just like make these

[20:32] decisions or tear your life apart or

[20:33] tear your health apart as you

[20:34] >> Well, the word functional is the wrong

[20:36] word. Like you're operating

[20:38] dysfunctionally. Yeah.

[20:39] >> But you're not so dysfunctional uh that

[20:42] anybody is going to kind of force you to

[20:44] stop doing what you're doing. You can

[20:46] get by, but you're operating at like

[20:48] such a suboptimal level in

[20:51] >> think you're crushing it. You really

[20:53] think you're

[20:53] >> Well, that's part of the denial and the

[20:54] delusion. Like nobody knows what I'm

[20:56] doing. they don't, you know, like I'm

[20:58] getting away with this and and then as

[21:00] it accelerates, then you have to start

[21:02] with all the lying and the hiding and

[21:04] all of that. But what was what was the

[21:06] conversation with moms that night after

[21:08] passing out on in in the bathroom in

[21:11] high school? She [snorts] couldn't have

[21:12] been too happy.

[21:12] >> Yeah. So, I don't even know. I think um

[21:15] you know, this was in the this was in

[21:16] like early 2000s, so like um parents

[21:20] putting their hands on on kids was kind

[21:21] of was okay at that point. And I was

[21:23] like 17, so I think she like punched me

[21:25] when I got in the car. Uh like maybe in

[21:27] the chest or something like that. But

[21:29] like she never like she wasn't a

[21:30] physical person like that.

[21:32] >> Um but I just knew like really her the

[21:34] look she's always she has this like look

[21:35] that she's like a lot of like a lot of

[21:38] parents have

[21:39] >> but it's this look that just like tore

[21:41] me up and I I just felt so embarrassed

[21:44] and like ashamed and felt like I like I

[21:47] um like disrespected her and and

[21:50] disrespected my family. And the thing

[21:52] was like I had a one thing I remember

[21:53] about that day is like I had a job at

[21:56] that point and I had I was supposed to

[21:59] go to work like later on that day and

[22:01] she made me go to work but she wasn't

[22:05] going to take me. So like I had to call

[22:06] my grandma to come take me to work. She

[22:09] knew the whole situation and she's like

[22:12] this if you like I hope you get to meet

[22:14] her. Um, she's like this really like,

[22:17] you know, quiet, so kind. Everybody, if

[22:21] you meet her, everybody's just going to

[22:22] be like, they're just, everybody loves

[22:24] my grandma, just automatic cuz she's

[22:25] just so kind, supportive, and attentive.

[22:28] And you feel like she's like looking

[22:29] into your soul as you talk to her, as

[22:31] she talks to you. And so she got in she

[22:33] I got in her car quiet cuz I'm trying to

[22:36] figure like how to not be drunk right

[22:37] now. And we're driving to this this

[22:41] place out in like the suburbs. And she

[22:44] like right before I got out, she like

[22:46] looked at me and like the first word she

[22:48] said was or the only word she said in

[22:50] the car was like don't let them see you

[22:51] like this. Like to me that meant just it

[22:55] was just so much cuz I was just walking

[22:56] into this building with you know at that

[22:58] time it was a it was a golf store and it

[23:00] was just it's just going to be all white

[23:01] people and I'm just looking a mess. So

[23:03] she's like just pull yourself together

[23:05] >> and don't ever let anybody see you like

[23:07] this. And I wish I took like the meaning

[23:10] of that like right away and and and

[23:12] maybe just went a different direction.

[23:14] But, you know, the the addiction won in

[23:16] that in that case. But that's what I

[23:18] remember from that day. And once I

[23:20] finally like came to terms with like my

[23:22] sobriety and started going on that walk,

[23:24] I knew more like what she what she

[23:26] meant. And um and I kind of tried to

[23:29] chase that that like redemption of that

[23:31] of that moment, you know, like

[23:33] throughout my life. Now

[23:35] >> with that rapid of an acceleration

[23:38] uh it seems like uh it would be

[23:41] difficult for you to sustain any kind of

[23:44] relationship with alcohol for very long.

[23:47] But

[23:48] >> that was what year? 2000

[23:50] >> 2002.

[23:50] >> 2002. You get sober in 2017. So you got

[23:55] a good 15-year run after that.

[23:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. Good is is a is a strange

[24:00] word. [laughter]

[24:02] >> Yeah. from so from that point like I got

[24:04] back into it just a little more tame I

[24:06] thought I was being and like I said I

[24:08] eased back into it

[24:09] >> and

[24:11] I just knew my I kind of learned my

[24:13] limit you know I thought I learned my

[24:15] limit at that point like I'll never I'll

[24:17] never be that drunk in public ever again

[24:19] I'll never drink that much in a short

[24:22] period of time ever again like I set

[24:23] these parameters without like without

[24:25] knowing it and it just allowed me to get

[24:28] to the point of you know okay I need to

[24:30] go home and I would just go home.

[24:32] >> And you were able to do that.

[24:33] >> I was able to do that, but then a lot of

[24:35] but that also led me to like this really

[24:37] isolated life. You know, you had family

[24:39] and stuff like that, but I still was

[24:40] like I would just be at home drinking. I

[24:42] wasn't I wasn't the type of drunk or

[24:44] drinker that like would want to be

[24:46] outside and at the bars and stuff like

[24:48] that. Like that.

[24:49] >> Yeah. You're taking your grandma's

[24:50] advice. It doesn't You're you're not

[24:52] interpreting it as stop drinking. Just

[24:54] don't let anyone see you doing it.

[24:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, like and if you're in my

[24:58] house Yeah. It is what it is. like, you

[25:00] know, so that was my my my thing was

[25:02] just like kind of hide hiding it as much

[25:03] as I could and then just never being in

[25:06] a car.

[25:08] >> Um, you know, absolutely just trashed or

[25:11] just I just didn't want to be around

[25:13] people like I was very alone to myself

[25:16] like drunk and that's it was just part

[25:18] of I wake up every morning and finish

[25:20] whatever I didn't you know the day

[25:22] before.

[25:22] >> So the morning drinking started pretty

[25:25] early. Um, I don't know when the morning

[25:27] drinking started, but it was, you know,

[25:28] definitely around like 200 like 12 or

[25:32] 13. Like that was standard, you know,

[25:35] and that was and I I just pulled from so

[25:38] many different like dumb inspirations.

[25:40] Like it was a dude that I I remember

[25:42] being around like cuz after I graduated,

[25:44] I went down this whole like street like

[25:47] rabbit hole where I just knew that I

[25:49] wanted to be out there or outside like

[25:51] that. And as a dude I knew that was like

[25:54] he would drink every day before he'd go

[25:55] out, you know, into the world because I

[25:57] mean he was living a much different

[25:58] lifestyle, but he just felt like he

[26:00] needed to have like a edge when he went

[26:02] outside.

[26:03] >> And I'm like, well, I'm going to work

[26:06] inside, but I could I could still use

[26:09] this like little edge. So, I was just

[26:10] using all these little random moments to

[26:13] validate like how I was like moving

[26:15] through my life. And but I just, you

[26:18] know, like they said, like there's like

[26:19] three phases of it. It's fun in the

[26:21] beginning. In the middle, you're just

[26:22] kind of maintaining. And at the end,

[26:23] it's just like absolute torture cuz you

[26:26] there's no chance of of stopping this

[26:28] this like train that's just is

[26:30] constantly rolling. And like every time

[26:33] that I would try to like stop, I would

[26:36] try to stop for like a week and I

[26:38] couldn't make it a day. And so every

[26:41] time I'd wake up in the morning and

[26:42] drink or every time that I would fail on

[26:44] these like little small little stances

[26:46] of of

[26:48] sobriety or like dry Januaries, it just

[26:51] felt like every day I like I was losing.

[26:53] I'd wake up every day and take a L. And

[26:57] it felt so out of control. Not because I

[27:00] was just like

[27:02] walking around the street stumbling

[27:03] around, but I was just had no control

[27:06] over my next like 20 minutes. Every time

[27:10] that happens, it's it's like another

[27:12] deposit in the uh hopelessness,

[27:15] desperation, uh piggy bank.

[27:18] >> Desp desperation was was like if I could

[27:21] have bought like two weeks of sobriety

[27:24] with every dollar I had at any point, I

[27:26] would have just to say that I did it. Um

[27:29] >> did you know anybody that was sober or

[27:31] that didn't drink or you were just it

[27:34] was like lower companion situation? No,

[27:37] I mean [clears throat] I I knew people

[27:38] that drank normal like regular like

[27:40] people that would drink once every week

[27:43] or something like that and they could

[27:45] control it. When you leave somebody's

[27:46] house like you'd buy a bottle and you

[27:48] take it to the house to have a party and

[27:49] you come back 2 weeks later and that

[27:51] same bottle is there. Like those people

[27:52] drove me crazy. Like how did you not

[27:55] drink this while I was gone?

[27:56] >> But no adult in your like orbit who was

[27:59] like yeah I'm an AA person.

[28:02] No one's checking in on you like that.

[28:04] Like cuz even the people like in my

[28:05] people in my family like um on my mom's

[28:07] side that didn't drink,

[28:08] >> they drank every now and then, but it

[28:10] was no like no intentional, you know, I

[28:13] go to AA was was a movie thing for me.

[28:16] >> Um that's the only time I saw it and it

[28:19] was never really depicted in like this

[28:21] light of like you should check it out.

[28:23] >> Yeah.

[28:24] >> That wasn't an option.

[28:25] >> Yeah.

[28:25] >> For me.

[28:27] >> You worked for many years uh at a auto

[28:30] transport company, right? Like now

[28:32] you're full-time running influencer

[28:35] racer dude. Uh but you had a pretty good

[28:38] job for a long time. Like you kind of

[28:39] worked your way up the ranks to like a

[28:41] VP level I guess, right?

[28:43] >> Is that a job that you started like

[28:45] right out of high school or or you know

[28:47] like how did you find your way there?

[28:48] And then how are you uh kind of uh

[28:52] getting promoted at your job while

[28:54] balancing this secret life as a morning

[28:56] drinking alcoholic? [laughter]

[28:58] >> Functional bro. Oh, no. It was

[29:01] >> because they they must have on some

[29:03] level. There's no way you had to just

[29:05] smell bad.

[29:06] >> I asked him after I got sober. I was

[29:07] like, "Did you?" And he was like, "No,

[29:09] >> I didn't."

[29:10] >> Wow.

[29:10] >> And I mean, he had to be lying to make

[29:12] me feel good. I don't know. But so I

[29:14] started working for them in 2007. So

[29:17] like from the like graduating high

[29:18] school to 2007, there was like this like

[29:21] little area where I like I jumped into

[29:25] like I guess like street life um in a

[29:28] way. And

[29:31] I I found myself going directly in this

[29:34] path of of like self like actual

[29:37] self-destruction and like gambling like

[29:39] my freedom

[29:40] >> and life like every day.

[29:44] >> What are we talking about here? Like

[29:45] selling drugs or

[29:46] >> um so I knew people that I knew people

[29:48] that did and I was around people that

[29:50] did. Um, and like I dabbled in it here

[29:53] and there, but I was much more like the

[29:56] younger dude around like people that

[29:57] were like 10, 15 years older than me and

[29:59] they were just doing really well. And I

[30:01] met them through through a girl that I

[30:04] knew at the time. And next thing you

[30:05] know, like cuz I I I I grew up

[30:07] glorifying like that,

[30:10] I guess, the cars and the money and

[30:11] stuff like that, but it was really more

[30:12] of like that masculine like I have it

[30:16] figured out energy and and that

[30:18] confident energy that I felt like I

[30:20] didn't have. Like, so I watch all these

[30:22] movies and it's like, yo, that's the guy

[30:24] that I that I think I should be like,

[30:25] you know, I should be like running this

[30:27] or having, you know, money and doing

[30:30] what I want to do. And so like all of a

[30:32] sudden to like run into some people like

[30:34] this, they were they were everything

[30:38] that I thought I wanted to be, which

[30:40] was, you know, confident, took care of

[30:42] their families, um, and people knew

[30:44] them, you know, and in hindsight, it was

[30:48] a very dangerous like decision for me to

[30:50] be like, "All right, what y'all need?

[30:51] And let's let's work and let me help and

[30:54] let me, you know, make some money on the

[30:56] side here, do all these like it was it

[30:58] was a um a big risk, but like I actually

[31:01] like thank God that that I met them and

[31:03] not like a different set of people

[31:05] >> cuz it wasn't like I guess hand to hand

[31:08] like it wasn't like I was like standing

[31:09] on a corner somewhere. Yeah. Like it was

[31:12] >> much different than that and a little

[31:14] safer but probably higher. the amount of

[31:17] years that potentially you could get if

[31:18] you got caught doing something would

[31:19] probably be a little a little crazy. But

[31:23] it was I'm just happy I met them because

[31:25] they they kept they were kept me farther

[31:27] away far away from that daily energy as

[31:31] possible. But then they also like

[31:33] strangely had even though I looked at

[31:36] the drug dealing part of it as yo this

[31:39] is who I want to be because they're drug

[31:41] dealers. It was really who I wanted to

[31:43] be because they were a lot of these guys

[31:46] are people that are just trying to take

[31:48] care of their families.

[31:48] >> Yeah. They look like they're thriving.

[31:50] >> They look like they're thriving. But

[31:51] then a lot at least in the generation

[31:53] that I grew up in and looked up to, they

[31:56] had morals and like and in and to a to

[32:00] an extent and had

[32:03] like a code amongst themselves like how

[32:05] they would carry themselves in the world

[32:06] and how they would take care of them

[32:08] their families like you know this is all

[32:11] a roundabout story to get to like 2007

[32:13] but when my my kids mom had our daughter

[32:16] uh in 2007 in 2007 I needed to get I

[32:20] needed to make a as I couldn't be in the

[32:22] house I was in and have her in the house

[32:24] with a baby. So, we moved to this other

[32:26] house. And

[32:29] I didn't see a dad directly with with

[32:33] children until I saw these guys handle

[32:35] their kids. And so, like for 2 3 years,

[32:38] I I acted I treated my daughter how they

[32:41] treated their their little girls. And I

[32:43] would say the same things to my daughter

[32:46] eventually that they were saying to

[32:47] their kids. and they like taught me how

[32:49] to be like a a a father and like a man

[32:53] to a to kids and a man to a woman, you

[32:57] know, and so it's like a blessing, but

[33:00] it was it's a weird it's a dark moment

[33:02] in my life, but it was also this

[33:03] blessing that I ran to these people in

[33:05] general. But so like to fast forward to

[33:07] 2007. But before you go there, I mean, I

[33:10] think the

[33:11] point that stands out to me in in what

[33:14] you just shared is that these things are

[33:18] not black and white. It's in the same

[33:20] way that we were characterizing alcohol

[33:22] as a solution to a problem.

[33:24] >> You know, you could look at this

[33:26] community of people and now in

[33:28] retrospect realize like that was a bad

[33:29] decision. That was a potentially

[33:31] dangerous environment for me. I'm

[33:33] grateful I got out of it.

[33:34] >> But they were fulfilling a need. like

[33:37] they were solving a problem for you by

[33:39] being a mentor in a certain kind of way

[33:42] that you needed and lacked and didn't

[33:44] have in your in your upbringing.

[33:46] >> Yeah. And I'm like super thankful for,

[33:48] you know, to them and for them. I'm not

[33:49] really in communication with them that

[33:51] much at all anymore, but like they they

[33:56] kind of gave me the blueprint of like

[33:58] how I can move in the world and how I

[34:00] can thrive in the world. you know, all

[34:01] you just got to replace, you know, you

[34:03] know, from drugs to something different,

[34:05] but like how do you carry yourself

[34:06] through these business interactions and

[34:08] how do you u like stand tall, I guess,

[34:10] on your on your what you believe is true

[34:12] and right and how do you move forward

[34:14] with that like with some sense of

[34:15] confidence and build.

[34:16] >> Um, so like that was just a that was

[34:18] definitely a blessing.

[34:20] >> So, you have kids all of a sudden.

[34:22] >> Yeah.

[34:22] >> How old are you?

[34:23] >> I'm 40 Well, at the time 23 23

[34:26] >> 23 in 2007. So I imagine that's a that

[34:29] that was a catalyst or kind of a

[34:32] recognition like hey like I gotta like

[34:34] figure my [ __ ] out a little bit.

[34:36] >> Yeah. So like I'm So I started say like

[34:39] I'm I'm going to get a job now cuz like

[34:40] I can't I don't want to be like the

[34:42] movies just doing one more little thing

[34:44] for a couple dollars here and then all

[34:45] of a sudden like you're in prison. So

[34:47] I'm like all right let me get a job. And

[34:49] I was I I said no to using like some of

[34:52] the cars that I had access to before cuz

[34:54] I just didn't want to have to be pulled

[34:55] in that direction. So I'm like, "No, I'm

[34:57] good." Or, you know, and I was paying

[34:58] for a cab just to get back and forth to

[35:00] this church that I got a job at. There

[35:02] was a church that my mom like like kind

[35:04] of grew me up in and like for my like my

[35:06] high school years. And so I'm working at

[35:09] this church and also sort of trying to

[35:11] play that lifestyle of trying to make

[35:13] money every now and then if I could. But

[35:15] it was just like this hard thing to go

[35:18] from like having everything that I

[35:19] needed and making really good money to

[35:22] all of a sudden trying to raise another

[35:24] person and

[35:27] figure like this like life out. And it

[35:30] was just my mom came to visit and cuz

[35:33] she was living in Massachusetts at the

[35:34] time and she came to visit for a few

[35:36] days and I was just trying to hold it

[35:38] together like as much as I could and act

[35:39] like this like $20 that I had was like

[35:41] enough. and she like saw it, didn't say

[35:45] too much. Her and my grandma came picked

[35:47] me up and took me to like Target or

[35:49] something like that to buy a bunch of

[35:51] stuff and they're like, "Oh, we just

[35:52] want to help you with like a home a

[35:53] homewarming type of gift." And she

[35:55] called me like a month or so after

[35:57] visiting and was like, "I see that

[35:59] you're I don't know what you're doing or

[36:01] what you were doing. I see that you're

[36:03] trying to make a difference or a change

[36:06] in your life and you're trying to take

[36:07] care of this little girl. Um, if you

[36:10] want, you could come to Massachusetts,

[36:12] live with me, and you know, you can

[36:14] bring, you know, you can bring Iris, her

[36:15] mom, you can bring her, too, and you

[36:18] guys can start over if you want.

[36:20] >> And she's like, it's different. It's

[36:22] Newport, Massachusetts. It's like as

[36:25] white as you can get,

[36:27] >> you know? And I'm like, uh, let me talk

[36:30] to her and see what she said. And she

[36:32] said yes. Like within like first

[36:34] conversation, she's like, yeah, sure.

[36:35] Let's get out of here. cuz she everybody

[36:39] saw me like that cared I guess about me

[36:41] saw me trying to figure this thing out

[36:42] and not like resort to what I thought

[36:45] was the easiest way to make money at

[36:47] that mo at that point. And so I moved um

[36:50] my mom the guy my mom was like really

[36:53] close friends with came picked me up on

[36:56] September 10th 2007 and we drove from

[36:59] you know through Canada um to go to

[37:02] Massachusetts. All my stuff was in the

[37:04] back of a pickup truck and we just like

[37:06] started this life over and I started

[37:09] working at like a a doughnut shop for

[37:11] seven days and then the eighth day I

[37:14] started at at Lowe's like home the home

[37:17] improvement.

[37:18] >> Yeah. worked there for two months. And

[37:19] while I was working there, I got hired

[37:21] at Reload Trains, Auto Relocation for um

[37:25] at the entry level position. Like I was

[37:28] the money I was making was like kind of

[37:30] laughable like but it was definitely my

[37:32] first desk job and I started at the

[37:34] lowest position you could get and just

[37:36] over those years I I just kept kind of

[37:39] climbing and kind of instilling like

[37:41] what I saw my mom and my sister and my

[37:43] grandma do in their lives which is just

[37:44] like keep going forward and figure it

[37:47] out. So, how many years were you in

[37:49] Massachusetts before you moved back to

[37:50] Detroit?

[37:51] >> I moved back to Detroit, I think, in

[37:53] like 2014.

[37:54] >> Oh, wow. So, so I was there for like

[37:56] seven years.

[37:57] >> Yeah. So, like six or seven years, I was

[37:59] out there. And in that, in that time,

[38:01] like I I I stopped working for Reload

[38:04] Trans in 2025.

[38:07] And in that time, I went from the person

[38:10] that just talks on the phone about the

[38:11] relocation that ads puts it together to

[38:14] sales to creating a position for like

[38:17] director of sales and then just kept

[38:19] working my way up because I was just

[38:21] making a name for myself in the industry

[38:22] and really like helping the company grow

[38:25] really quickly. But all that time I was

[38:28] like my my addiction was just there

[38:31] >> and [clears throat] it was just

[38:32] increasing. And then I was drinking

[38:34] during the job. I was had like liquor in

[38:36] Red Bull bottles, you know, just

[38:38] thinking that the smell of the Red Bull

[38:40] would like mask the liquor. But I it was

[38:43] keeping me together, I thought. And um

[38:46] couple like scares like health-wise and

[38:50] just like decision- making, but somehow

[38:53] like I put this like string of of years

[38:55] together where I was really thriving.

[39:00] The first time I saw an R2 in person, I

[39:02] got it immediately. This is the Rivian

[39:05] that a lot of people are going to be

[39:06] able to enjoy. Driving it with R.J. only

[39:09] confirm that.

[39:10] >> All right. So, first impressions in my

[39:13] first

[39:13] >> in your first

[39:14] >> experience in the R2.

[39:20] >> Nice. All right. Now I'm getting the

[39:21] feel.

[39:22] >> Yeah.

[39:23] >> Feels [music] really tight.

[39:25] >> It feels nice, right?

[39:26] >> Yeah. Interestingly, like from a first

[39:28] impression point [music] of view, when

[39:29] you see it from a distance,

[39:32] proportionally, it looks very similar

[39:34] [music] to the R1, you know, like the

[39:36] way that it is designed, it looks kind

[39:39] of integral with the original.

[39:42] >> It's quite a bit smaller. And [music] so

[39:43] when you look at them separately,

[39:45] sometimes people be like, is that an R1

[39:46] or an R2? And they have a lot of

[39:48] similarities.

[39:49] >> But I I actually think R2 ended up with

[39:51] a better set of proportions. And it's

[39:53] [music] that kind of thinking that just

[39:55] exists across everything to try to

[39:58] deliver an [music] experience that still

[40:00] feels really Rivian like but at a

[40:02] fraction of the cost of R1.

[40:04] >> First impressions aside, there's a lot

[40:06] more to the R2 than what you see at

[40:08] first glance. [music] To learn all about

[40:09] the R2, watch the rest of our

[40:11] conversation and book a demo drive at

[40:14] stories.

[40:16] Roll.

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[41:42] So, you're moving up in the job, but

[41:44] your quality of life is degrading. You

[41:46] have a 10-year run drinking as a parent

[41:51] also.

[41:52] >> Yeah.

[41:52] >> You know, that has to be like looking

[41:54] now, you know, backwards at those times.

[41:58] Like, it seems like you have a great

[41:59] relationship with your kids now.

[42:01] >> I think so. I tried to. She's 19. My

[42:04] son's just turned 16. Um they I mean I

[42:08] don't think they remember me drinking,

[42:10] you know, but she remembers me as a dad

[42:12] then. So I don't know. I just don't

[42:13] really know like how much of that life

[42:15] she remembers. But I'm so happy that you

[42:20] know that I've been I've been sober

[42:21] going on I've been sober over 9 years

[42:24] now. And it's um I I can't I'm so

[42:31] thankful. like I don't even necessarily

[42:32] have the words of like how happy and um

[42:36] grateful I am to be in their lives and

[42:40] be in and be a point of inspiration in a

[42:45] way or I don't hide you know the fact

[42:47] that I used to be an alcoholic or I am

[42:49] an alcoholic when we first met correct

[42:53] me if I'm not me remembering this

[42:55] properly but uh when we were talking you

[43:00] you were still sort struggling with

[43:02] whether to share your addiction and

[43:04] sobriety story. I mean, obviously you

[43:06] were much earlier in sobriety at that

[43:08] point.

[43:08] >> Yeah.

[43:08] >> And now this is, you know, it's it's

[43:11] sort of running first in terms of like

[43:13] how you communicate publicly, but um the

[43:16] recovery piece has has become much more

[43:19] prominent in how [clears throat] you

[43:21] think about, you know, how you share

[43:22] your life. Yeah, it was definitely like

[43:26] I didn't being in corporate for so long

[43:28] and trying to build yourself, your your

[43:31] personal brand, but then also you're

[43:32] working you're representing a company

[43:35] like I didn't ever I never talked about

[43:37] sobriety. Even after I got sober, I kind

[43:39] of was really quiet about it cuz I you

[43:41] don't want to you don't want to

[43:43] negatively impact a company, but I had

[43:45] to like come to terms with this is my

[43:47] per this is my personal brand. This is

[43:49] my message. this is like could

[43:51] potentially be my purpose in the world

[43:52] is to share some of the things that I've

[43:54] learned and I got on a podcast uh once

[43:57] or it was like a live with believe in

[43:59] the run and he it was like 30 minute

[44:01] little spy he asked me some questions

[44:03] and there was a moment that I could have

[44:05] talked about sobriety but and he like

[44:07] teed it up perfect for it and then I

[44:09] like pivoted and went back to running

[44:12] and I got off that that 30 minute live

[44:14] and felt so terrible like like I missed

[44:18] an opportunity potentially help one

[44:20] person maybe. And I'm like, okay, if I'm

[44:23] going to do this whole Tommy Runs thing

[44:25] and I ever get an [clears throat]

[44:26] opportunity to be on a podcast again, if

[44:28] someone ask me that m about that moment

[44:30] or there's a chance that I could talk

[44:31] about sobriety, I'm doing it. And I

[44:34] think that was when we met, it was like

[44:37] kind of right before that all that

[44:38] happened. And you know, knowing that

[44:41] there's a you too out in the world that

[44:44] leans heavily into that story gives like

[44:47] other people moments of um clarity in a

[44:50] sense or I can do that too. And so in

[44:54] that moment I'm like probably referenced

[44:56] to you and other people in my brain like

[44:58] they're doing just fine and there's no

[45:00] one like shaming them for being you know

[45:02] attempting to be sober and stay sober

[45:03] and help other people. So that's when I

[45:05] leaned in like I'm telling this story

[45:07] because when I got sober in the first

[45:10] day, the first meeting I went to, I went

[45:13] into a room with, you know, it was in a

[45:15] nice area. There was nice cars outside.

[45:17] Walked inside, everybody, you know, the

[45:19] average age was probably like 45 to 50.

[45:22] Um, everybody, no one looks like me in

[45:24] the room. And I walked in because a

[45:27] therapist told me that I should maybe

[45:29] check it out. And there's a guy that was

[45:30] going to be waiting on me to get there.

[45:32] So I'm like, "Okay." And I walked in,

[45:34] I'm like, "These people will there's no

[45:36] chance that they understand what I've

[45:38] been through."

[45:39] >> Yeah.

[45:39] >> And then I heard

[45:40] >> like a Gross Point crowd.

[45:42] >> Yeah. [laughter]

[45:44] >> I told you this, you know, I was born in

[45:45] Gross Point.

[45:46] >> Okay. Yeah.

[45:47] >> Do you remember? We I think we talked

[45:48] about

[45:49] >> it was actually West Bloomfield.

[45:50] >> So basically, same thing. Maybe even a

[45:53] little

[45:54] definitely a little more. And it was

[45:56] like a a Bentley outside and like a like

[45:58] a Porsche or something like that. Okay,

[45:59] this is this isn't going to work. But

[46:01] then I'm sitting there and all these

[46:02] people are telling their story and they

[46:04] literally in some way said how they in

[46:07] their stories they they shared how I

[46:08] felt you know about myself addiction um

[46:13] and all that. So I'm like this is these

[46:14] are my people almost immediately before

[46:16] I even said a word. I'm like these are

[46:18] my people and I need to be here. If I

[46:20] can do that randomly on a podcast or in

[46:23] some version of like a caption of a post

[46:24] that I share about some shoes and I

[46:26] mention something else that strikes like

[46:28] that chord of like, oh, I do I resonate

[46:32] with this and if he can do it, I can do

[46:35] it, too. And that's been my theme for

[46:38] like everything that I've done, whether

[46:40] it's, you know, these big races or just

[46:43] going after marathons. It's not

[46:45] necessarily like I want to inspire you

[46:47] to do this, but I want to inspire you to

[46:50] do some form of whatever that next step

[46:52] is for you. Um, so that that was really

[46:55] what I was grappling with was like, can

[46:57] I share this and is it helpful? And then

[46:59] I had to think about like my life was

[47:00] saved in those rooms because people

[47:02] shared their stories authentically. They

[47:04] didn't cut corners. They didn't try to

[47:06] preach to the thing. They literally just

[47:09] shared some of their most vulnerable and

[47:12] scary and kind of like laughable

[47:15] stories. Um, but it was what I needed to

[47:19] to know that like it's not just me, you

[47:22] know?

[47:22] >> Yeah. Walk me up to your moment of

[47:25] clarity. Like how did you uh wake up one

[47:28] day and decide this is the day that I'm

[47:31] gonna get sober. I'm gonna go to my

[47:33] first AA meeting. The day was uh January

[47:36] 11th, 2017. Um that was the the the last

[47:40] drink I had was January 10th. And

[47:42] leading up to that was like just a

[47:44] couple years of just trying so hard to

[47:46] figure out how to string together a week

[47:49] or a month or whatever. And my friend

[47:52] Donovan, uh like best friend, brother,

[47:55] met him when I was like 12. And we just

[47:58] were like inseparable for so long. Rest

[48:00] in peace. He passed in um March in March

[48:04] 2025.

[48:06] And so he was he definitely was

[48:09] alcoholic as well. He didn't never say

[48:11] he was, but whenever like I would say

[48:13] that I wanted to stop drinking for a

[48:15] little bit, he would be like, "All

[48:16] right, cool. I'll do it with you." And

[48:18] it was strange how quick he would I knew

[48:21] he needed it too, but he was doing it

[48:23] for me, you know, in his head. But it

[48:26] like it let me keep trying to do it. So

[48:29] every time I would try and fail, like I

[48:30] would tell him the truth and he'd be

[48:32] like, "Oh, you good, bro?" Like, you

[48:34] know, you got a good job. Like we kind

[48:35] of played it off and kind of roll

[48:36] forward. But every time I would try to

[48:37] get worse and worse to the point where

[48:39] like my mom text me one day in January

[48:44] 2007, like right after the new year, uh

[48:46] he and I were going to do this dry

[48:48] January thing. And I got to like the

[48:52] third or fourth day into January, went

[48:54] over his house. Um, our wives at the

[48:57] time were, you know, were drinking and I

[49:00] I made it through the whole night, no

[49:02] drinking. And I woke up at like 2:30 in

[49:04] the morning. Our my kids are downstairs

[49:06] with his kids. Everybody's sleeping in

[49:07] the house at 2:30 in the morning. And I

[49:09] like went into the kitchen, found the

[49:12] bottle of vodka, and just started

[49:14] drinking in the middle of the night. No

[49:16] one's awake. There's no reason why I

[49:17] would need to do this, you know, in my

[49:19] in rational mind. and

[49:22] then just got drunk and

[49:25] >> fell asleep. And that was the silliest

[49:29] and dumbest and saddest that I've ever

[49:32] been. [laughter] You know, it's like

[49:34] >> at least like I could have caved like

[49:36] people were awake.

[49:37] >> Sleep. You just woke up in the middle.

[49:38] Yeah. Like you couldn't even sleep

[49:39] through the night. There's everyone's

[49:41] there's nothing going on.

[49:42] >> There's no benefit to me being tipsy,

[49:45] drunk, or anything alike at that point.

[49:47] There's no awkward social situation that

[49:49] you have to show up for. Yeah, I

[49:51] [snorts] just had to [laughter]

[49:52] I just had to stay asleep. I could have

[49:54] just went back to sleep, but I'm like,

[49:55] let me go have this drink and and then

[49:58] but that was just I woke up the next day

[50:00] and the days after that I would just

[50:01] obviously right back to it, but I just

[50:03] felt that was the worst that I felt. And

[50:05] I'm just like I'm going to die like

[50:07] this. Like this is how I die is in a car

[50:10] or you know I'm already I'm I'm 30

[50:14] whatever 32 and it's going to be blood

[50:16] pressure cuz my blood pressure was high

[50:18] blood pressure.

[50:19] >> Yeah. Like I was in the hospital when I

[50:21] was 30 or something like that 29 30 with

[50:25] like 82 over like 120 something.

[50:28] >> Wow. Like at this point from then on I

[50:30] could feel whenever my blood pressure

[50:32] would get high enough like my hand was

[50:33] starting to go numb like so I was

[50:34] playing with like dying just like my dad

[50:37] did you know?

[50:38] >> Yeah. You have this you know father

[50:40] figure looming over you died so young.

[50:43] >> If I can't be better than him I might as

[50:45] well like die sooner than ridiculous I

[50:49] guess. But

[50:50] >> so like that's but that's where I was

[50:51] like that's like this is just how it

[50:52] ends you know. There's no I I cannot

[50:55] beat this. It will not happen. And

[50:58] it just is what it is. And my mom like

[51:00] texts me one day. She's like, "How's my

[51:03] son?" And this was like a day or so

[51:04] after that episode. And I'm like,

[51:07] normally I just go, "I'm doing great.

[51:10] Kids are good." Blah blah blah. I just

[51:12] told her, "Not good." And simply like

[51:14] just just that quick. Not good. Didn't

[51:16] divulge what what was happening. And she

[51:18] said, "You know, you should call you

[51:20] should reach out to EAP. You have

[51:21] insurance employee assistance program.

[51:23] Reach out. They'll maybe help you." And

[51:26] so I did what she told me to do

[51:29] >> and they called me like the next day and

[51:31] was like, "Hey, you know, they do like a

[51:33] little screening thing to figure out

[51:34] what type of therapist maybe you need."

[51:36] I complained about family stuff and

[51:38] blamed everything. The reason why I was

[51:39] calling is not my fault. It's not

[51:40] addiction. It's just, you know,

[51:41] whatever. But she asked me how many how

[51:44] many times I drink a day or a week. And

[51:46] I'm like, it really just depends on like

[51:48] what it is. If it's beer, it's a ton. If

[51:50] it's liquor, it's 7 8 or whatever until

[51:53] I can't anymore. And I wake up in the

[51:54] morning, I drink. And she was like,

[51:56] "Okay, no, no."

[51:57] >> So, you were honest in that answer.

[51:58] >> So, like I told her the truth. I told

[52:00] this lady on the phone the truth. And

[52:02] then they like, "Okay, well, we have an

[52:06] appointment for you on January 11th uh

[52:09] with this person and she's a family

[52:11] therapist." And so I'm like, "Okay,

[52:13] cool. January 10th, I drank at like

[52:15] 10:30 p.m. Like, I can't go there

[52:18] smelling like liquor, so let's stop

[52:20] here." Um, so I walked in and she starts

[52:23] talking to me. started complaining about

[52:24] family and this and that, works hard.

[52:26] She was like, "Well, how much do you

[52:27] drink, you know, or do you do do you

[52:29] think I have a drinking problem?" I'm

[52:30] like, "Yeah, I mean, I drink a bit." And

[52:32] she asked me, "How much?" And I told her

[52:33] the truth again. She was like, "Okay,

[52:35] well, the cool thing is I'm a family

[52:36] therapist, but I'm also um I'm I'm

[52:40] actually mainly a substance abuse

[52:41] counselor." And I'm like, I almost

[52:43] walked out like, "You guys tricked me."

[52:44] You know what I'm saying? But uh they

[52:47] she she said, "Well, you you definitely

[52:49] have a drinking problem. I'm not going

[52:51] to call you an alcoholic, but you you

[52:52] have you have an issue. There's a

[52:54] meeting that happens on Sunday. I know a

[52:57] guy that goes there. He's a nice guy.

[52:58] He's around your age. You should go with

[53:00] him. Just meet him there. And then so I

[53:02] walked out of that office and was like,

[53:04] "All right, well, how about I just don't

[53:06] drink from Wednesday to to Sunday." And

[53:09] at that point, that's like four or five

[53:10] days. And that is a stretch for me.

[53:12] >> Mhm. But somehow because of I said like

[53:16] those three truths, I was able to like

[53:18] the weight of the addiction was lifted

[53:20] enough for me to to hold and not drink

[53:23] from January 11th to that till when I

[53:25] walked in that meeting.

[53:26] >> Right. Also, you're a man of great

[53:28] integrity and when you say I'm going to

[53:30] I'm going to not drink for these four

[53:32] days, like you're a man of your word.

[53:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. I've been able to Yeah.

[53:35] Yeah. I didn't tell her that. I just

[53:37] said that in my head like I'm just not

[53:38] going to drink. But it's that it's that

[53:40] thing that superiority complex like I

[53:43] am, you know, like I'm stronger than

[53:44] anyone while also feeling like I'm the

[53:46] worst person in the world. Like you're

[53:48] simultaneously like inhabiting those

[53:51] >> two ideas about yourself.

[53:52] >> I don't know. Like I don't know if I

[53:54] ever I always thought that I could be

[53:56] really good at something. Um but I just

[53:59] didn't think that I was I had what it

[54:02] took to reach like my potential,

[54:04] >> you know? Like that's just it. Like I

[54:06] knew that I was like smart enough. I

[54:08] knew I could talk enough. I knew I could

[54:11] make friends with people that I needed

[54:12] to and talk to whoever. My mom, you

[54:14] know, my family raised me so well.

[54:16] >> Who else could drink as much as you were

[54:18] drinking and still move up the corporate

[54:20] ladder at your job and be a parent, you

[54:22] know, like you know, you're like, I'm

[54:23] I'm like crushing it. I mean low key

[54:26] like low-key renaissance man type stuff,

[54:28] you know, but you know like I think that

[54:30] I just never looked at myself well ever,

[54:33] you know, like even during that time

[54:35] working for that one company for 17

[54:36] years. I was just telling somebody the

[54:38] other day like I had job offers that

[54:39] were easily anybody else would have

[54:42] taken. But I can't take that job because

[54:44] you're going to you'll find out they'll

[54:46] find out.

[54:46] >> You'll find out cuz if whatever whatever

[54:48] reason this company they don't they're

[54:50] not paying attention to me like that.

[54:51] you're going to find out that I'm an

[54:52] [ __ ] or that I'm like just drinking

[54:54] my life.

[54:55] >> I'll stay here cuz they're sort of blind

[54:56] to what I'm doing and I have a setup

[54:58] where

[54:58] >> they need me. They like, you know, like

[55:01] >> and so like I just didn't have the

[55:03] confidence at that time to like make a

[55:06] decision that would put me at risk of

[55:08] being like found out, you know,

[55:11] >> right? But leading up to that like

[55:13] moment of of like walking into her

[55:15] office was just I think it's it's just

[55:18] the truth part, you know, like I li you

[55:21] we lie about our our alcoholism and the

[55:23] things we're doing so much. It's just

[55:25] it's like second nature or first nature

[55:27] almost just to hide lie. Um you know,

[55:31] how many drinks have you had? Two. you

[55:33] know, but it's like I finally was able

[55:35] to tell the truth about it to someone

[55:37] outside of Donovan, you know, and people

[55:40] that I probably wouldn't have told the

[55:42] truth to and it just it like loosened

[55:43] its like grip enough for me to see some

[55:47] space in between, you know, myself in

[55:49] this drink.

[55:50] >> Um, and I'm I just like thank God for

[55:52] like for whatever happened like I was

[55:55] able to tell the truth at that moment.

[55:57] >> Yeah. So, you go to that first meeting,

[56:00] you hear a version of your story,

[56:03] something clicks in you. How do you go

[56:05] from being a guy who can't go three or

[56:08] four days without drinking to not

[56:11] drinking for coming up on 10 years at

[56:14] this point from that January 11th, 2017

[56:18] day?

[56:20] >> Um,

[56:21] you know, the the meetings

[56:24] saved my life. not just like that day,

[56:26] but having um a place to go that felt

[56:31] like home more than home did

[56:34] allowed me to just continue to work

[56:37] through some of those those worries and

[56:40] issues that I thought were just so

[56:42] important to me. You know, like when you

[56:44] go into a meeting and you complain about

[56:45] something or you're worried about

[56:47] something like somebody that has like

[56:49] 15, 20 years says like the most simple

[56:52] stupid statement

[56:53] >> Mhm. That just means like, oh, relax.

[56:56] That's one day at a time. I'm worried

[56:58] about three months away because I got to

[56:59] go to a conference.

[57:00] >> One of the endless apherisms that are so

[57:02] annoying.

[57:03] >> It's like, so it's like, bro, shut up.

[57:04] [laughter]

[57:05] >> Like, okay, though. I get it. you know,

[57:07] it's but it was it's all the things that

[57:09] I like I learned in the program and as I

[57:13] worked through those like first few

[57:15] years of, you know, being able to bounce

[57:18] ideas or thoughts or worries off of

[57:20] people who weren't judging me but like

[57:22] saw themselves or heard themselves in

[57:24] what I was worried about and responded

[57:26] in a way that was much more passionate

[57:29] and um like caring than someone who

[57:32] doesn't understand who can have a drink

[57:34] and not drink for 3 4 is um people like

[57:37] that don't understand like what your how

[57:40] silly some of the things you worry about

[57:42] but how large those issues can become if

[57:45] you if they go unchecked.

[57:47] >> And so being in the program those first

[57:49] few years was so

[57:52] I needed every I needed that more than

[57:54] anything. And I also think that I'm

[57:58] blessed to to not have the urge to

[58:01] drink. And it kind of happened really

[58:04] fast. Like once I like fully made that

[58:07] decision that this is where I belong.

[58:10] I just haven't had that, oh, I think I

[58:13] need a drink or oh, I should drink right

[58:15] now. I've just I just haven't had that.

[58:17] And I know people struggle with that

[58:19] like every day.

[58:20] >> So, I know that I'm blessed and kind of

[58:21] rare in that in that aspect, but I think

[58:23] it was just because of how for me how

[58:26] much I I really wanted to be here, but

[58:30] just couldn't see a way. and they and

[58:31] they showed me like the way to it

[58:34] >> and I just accepted it like

[58:35] wholeheartedly. And yeah, I probably

[58:37] still act like an alcoholic and process

[58:40] things in a weird way that only we

[58:43] would. But at the same time, it just

[58:46] doesn't lead me back to to like wanting

[58:48] a drink cuz I know I know and I also

[58:51] know that I fully believe that I'll die

[58:54] if I go back to drinking.

[58:56] What do you think the difference is

[58:58] between someone like yourself who can

[59:02] walk into a meeting desperate,

[59:05] still not sure, not only like am I going

[59:09] to be able to

[59:11] be a sober person, but do I even really

[59:14] want this? Uh and yet building this

[59:18] foundation of sobriety and the person

[59:20] who has walked some version of your path

[59:23] who goes in and feels similarly about

[59:27] themselves and their relationship with

[59:28] alcohol and like can't get it or is in

[59:31] and out all the time. Is it something

[59:34] more than deeply wanting it? Is it a

[59:38] function of willingness? like what is

[59:39] the differentiator between the person

[59:41] who really kind of locks in and like

[59:45] does the work and builds a new life and

[59:48] the person who just continues to

[59:50] struggle.

[59:51] >> I think I mean the first thing that

[59:53] comes to mind to me is like ego. I mean,

[59:55] we have we have this like identity built

[59:57] in like who we think we are and

[1:00:01] and I mean the reason why it takes

[1:00:03] people to get to rock bottom, whatever

[1:00:05] your rock bottom is to make that change

[1:00:07] is cuz you're still attached to that ego

[1:00:10] or to that identity. Um, and anything

[1:00:12] that rubs against that, you're going to

[1:00:14] have some, you know, unwillingness to to

[1:00:17] shift or make the change. So, like for

[1:00:19] me, my rock bottom doesn't look maybe

[1:00:22] not nearly as bad as someone else's, but

[1:00:24] I was just ready to change and like I

[1:00:27] wanted it, you know, bad enough to be

[1:00:30] willing to do all the things and say all

[1:00:33] the silly statements. But I think it

[1:00:36] really just comes down to maybe not

[1:00:37] wanting it, but just being open and

[1:00:40] ready to take the suggestions of this

[1:00:43] book or these people that are ahead of

[1:00:46] you in this journey. Um, and also just

[1:00:49] like surrendering to the fact that you

[1:00:52] really don't have any control like

[1:00:54] whether it's over alcohol or drugs or

[1:00:57] whatever, you just don't have it in life

[1:00:59] in general. We just have no only control

[1:01:02] we have is just how we respond to these

[1:01:04] to like to these moments and to these

[1:01:06] opportunities or happenings in life. And

[1:01:09] as if you can just get to the point

[1:01:11] where you just are okay with like that,

[1:01:13] then that's the building blocks for like

[1:01:16] whatever is next.

[1:01:17] >> Yeah.

[1:01:17] >> But you just see so many people kind of

[1:01:20] holding on to their identity or who they

[1:01:22] think they should be. They want to be

[1:01:24] sober,

[1:01:24] >> but there's also this this thing that's

[1:01:27] holding them too close to

[1:01:31] what they built during their addiction.

[1:01:34] They haven't fully surrendered to this

[1:01:37] idea of powerlessness. Yeah. And the

[1:01:40] idea that this has to come before

[1:01:42] everything else and there's no quick

[1:01:45] fix. Like

[1:01:46] >> you really have to just be like, "All

[1:01:48] right, like what's it going to be?" You

[1:01:50] know, um,

[1:01:52] >> you know, Odysius uh, on the raft, you

[1:01:55] know, [laughter]

[1:01:56] >> leaving Calypso behind in full surrender

[1:01:59] and letting the the gods direct the

[1:02:01] current, you know, and hopefully I'll

[1:02:02] end up home. But it's really out of my

[1:02:04] hands.

[1:02:05] >> So silly. I almost like cried in that

[1:02:06] movie when he did that cuz it's like I

[1:02:08] mean that's how it feels. It's just like

[1:02:10] you

[1:02:11] >> he's going through the 12 steps in that

[1:02:13] movie. He talked about this with Ryan

[1:02:15] Holidayiday. I love that podcast. Yeah.

[1:02:17] >> Thank you [laughter] for that.

[1:02:18] >> And it's like finally, you know, like

[1:02:20] now he's going to get it. Like the only

[1:02:22] way he's going to solve this problem is

[1:02:24] by by like relinquishing the idea that

[1:02:27] he can solve it himself.

[1:02:29] >> Yeah. You just have Yeah. You just have

[1:02:30] to have to let go. And if that's what it

[1:02:33] feels like, it feels like you're you're

[1:02:35] just laying. It's not like they sent

[1:02:37] them in a little boat with a paddle.

[1:02:39] It's literally just lay on these couple

[1:02:41] pieces of wood and just float and see

[1:02:43] what happens. And that's what it feels

[1:02:45] like. Even though we were like probably

[1:02:46] on a makeshift boat with like 20 holes

[1:02:48] in the bottom, going to sink anyway.

[1:02:50] We're like holding on to this thought of

[1:02:51] we should be able to this should be

[1:02:53] different. It should be a plan. It

[1:02:55] should be something more, you know,

[1:02:58] amazing to think about like this better

[1:03:00] journey. But we really just have to like

[1:03:02] let go and follow the like the tenants

[1:03:05] of the program, but then also

[1:03:09] just relinquishing all control of what

[1:03:13] we thought we were controlling. Cuz

[1:03:15] that's one thing like for for me at

[1:03:16] least, alcoholism seems like this wild

[1:03:19] thing that you're just so out of

[1:03:20] control, but there's this weird false

[1:03:23] sense of control within ourselves. We're

[1:03:26] like, we know what we're doing. We've

[1:03:28] crafted this master plan of how to be

[1:03:30] drunk around everybody. No one knows.

[1:03:32] It's this false sense of of security

[1:03:35] that we still try to hold on to as we're

[1:03:37] like trying to step away from it.

[1:03:39] >> Mhm.

[1:03:41] >> Yeah. Well said.

[1:03:42] >> When that was my goal is to get you to

[1:03:44] say well said at least once.

[1:03:46] >> I got Well, all right. Goal goal

[1:03:47] unlocked. Okay.

[1:03:49] >> Um I have some goals also. I'll show

[1:03:51] them. Okay. At the end. We're not there

[1:03:53] yet. When is running enter the picture?

[1:03:56] Uh so running um enters in 2018.

[1:04:00] Um so I was like after getting sober

[1:04:03] like two weeks into um that walk I could

[1:04:06] I could like start to see myself in the

[1:04:08] mirror like physically. I'm like oh I

[1:04:11] look like crap like you with my shirt

[1:04:13] off in the mirror like this is I feel

[1:04:15] terrible still. I look bad. Um so let me

[1:04:19] start going to the gym. So I was going

[1:04:20] to the gym six or seven days a week. I

[1:04:23] just started going and I got real buff.

[1:04:26] Like I was really into it and my name I

[1:04:29] forgot what my name was before but uh my

[1:04:32] name was Tommy Guns on Instagram after

[1:04:35] like I started getting like real buff.

[1:04:37] >> You had a you had some other uh stage

[1:04:40] name on Instagram before that.

[1:04:42] >> I mean it was like

[1:04:43] >> I can't remember what it is.

[1:04:44] >> No, I think it was like something about

[1:04:45] cooking or something like cuz I liked

[1:04:47] cooking cuz I could drink while I was

[1:04:48] cooking and I enjoyed that that process.

[1:04:52] All right. So now you're

[1:04:53] >> So now I'm Tommy Guns. Tommy guns. I'm

[1:04:55] in the gym like heavy. Um like I was

[1:04:58] actually

[1:04:58] >> Guns with a Z. Of course.

[1:04:59] >> Guns with a Z. Yeah. Yeah. We we stayed

[1:05:01] branded right across.

[1:05:03] >> Um but then so like I was still working

[1:05:06] at the job. I had a client that was

[1:05:07] based in Chicago and he's like in 2018

[1:05:11] he's like, "Hey, um you're fit. We run

[1:05:15] the Chicago Rock and Roll Half Marathon

[1:05:17] every year as my for my company. who

[1:05:18] raised a bunch of money for a charity

[1:05:20] called Move for Hunger. Um, and I was

[1:05:22] familiar very familiar with the charity.

[1:05:24] Like I met the guy who owns or who

[1:05:26] started that the same like my first

[1:05:28] business trip. He was on that first

[1:05:30] business. It was his first business

[1:05:31] trip. So, shout out to Adam. Um, but so

[1:05:35] like I'm like, "Yeah, bet. I'll raise

[1:05:36] some money for the charity." So, I

[1:05:38] raised some money and but I'm training

[1:05:40] for this race training. you know, it was

[1:05:43] like six weeks of just like kind of like

[1:05:44] I jumped into a couple like 5ks to see

[1:05:46] what I could do. And then I ran this

[1:05:48] this this race in Chicago and at that

[1:05:52] point it was like a little over a year

[1:05:53] of sobriety. But somehow like getting on

[1:05:56] the line with all these people that I

[1:05:59] don't know, like thousands, it was a big

[1:06:00] race. Thousands of people I don't know

[1:06:02] running through the streets of Chicago

[1:06:05] all with like the same similar goal.

[1:06:07] Some people are going to get there

[1:06:08] faster or slower, but like we all did it

[1:06:10] together. And it felt like this number

[1:06:14] one felt a lot like the rooms to me

[1:06:17] somehow in in sobriety. And then

[1:06:21] secondly, no disrespect to my kids or

[1:06:24] whatever, but it was probably one of the

[1:06:26] most proud moments that I've had in my

[1:06:27] life to be somewhere so far from like

[1:06:31] from what I thought was possible like

[1:06:33] growing up. I didn't grow up seeing

[1:06:34] people like run half marathons for fun.

[1:06:38] Like my mom did like a couple charity

[1:06:39] walks and stuff like that for like

[1:06:40] breast cancer like back when I was a

[1:06:42] kid, but I didn't know anybody that

[1:06:44] would run 13.1 miles in a row on purpose

[1:06:47] and pay for it and go do it. So it was

[1:06:49] like I'm so proud of myself at this

[1:06:51] point. And so as soon as I got over like

[1:06:53] a metatarsal fracture that I had like

[1:06:55] right before the race, I ran anyway cuz

[1:06:58] that's what we do.

[1:06:59] >> Yeah.

[1:06:59] >> Um I'm like I like this running thing.

[1:07:02] Let me just keep doing it. So then I

[1:07:04] would just run a little bit more and

[1:07:05] started training and started signing up

[1:07:06] for different stuff. And then eventually

[1:07:08] my cousin was like, "Uh, you're not man.

[1:07:11] You ain't Tommy Guns anymore. You're

[1:07:12] Tommy Runs." And I'm I looked on

[1:07:13] Instagram really quick, put the R in to

[1:07:15] see if it was available and it was so I

[1:07:17] took it.

[1:07:18] >> And that's all she wrote.

[1:07:19] >> That's all she wrote. Now we're sitting.

[1:07:20] >> You were off to the races. Uh, literally

[1:07:22] from that point forward,

[1:07:25] >> um, you've gone on to I mean, how many

[1:07:27] marathons have you run at this point?

[1:07:28] >> 17.

[1:07:29] >> 17. You did all six majors.

[1:07:32] >> Mhm. Did you do that in a single year?

[1:07:34] >> I did run all six majors at the time

[1:07:36] when there was only six still. There was

[1:07:38] the last year there was six. 2024 I did

[1:07:40] all six in a year. I did Osaka marathon

[1:07:43] seven days before Tokyo, which is the

[1:07:44] first marathon major of the year. So I

[1:07:46] did all six in one year, but I had done

[1:07:48] multiple multiple of them many different

[1:07:50] times. But I got my six-star

[1:07:53] medal thing in uh London that year.

[1:07:55] >> Yeah. And your marathon PR is like 246

[1:07:59] or something.

[1:07:59] >> 2469. Yeah.

[1:08:00] >> 246. So, you're quick. You've matured

[1:08:04] into like an excellent marathon runner.

[1:08:07] Now, you're applying your trade on the

[1:08:10] trails.

[1:08:10] >> Yeah.

[1:08:11] >> You've done the Havalina 100. Uh you did

[1:08:14] 100k race also. You uh you did the speed

[1:08:18] project and you recently did Western

[1:08:20] States.

[1:08:20] >> Western States 100. Yep.

[1:08:21] >> Did I get all of them?

[1:08:22] >> Yes, you did.

[1:08:23] >> Yeah. So, uh you stepped into this whole

[1:08:26] other world. along the way at some point

[1:08:29] uh in your running journey, you decided

[1:08:31] to be kind of a content creator in this

[1:08:34] space.

[1:08:35] >> I'm interested in how that evolved like

[1:08:38] this thing that was a very personal kind

[1:08:40] of self-discovery

[1:08:42] >> um relationship with running now becomes

[1:08:44] like a you know kind of a public

[1:08:46] relationship that you're having and now

[1:08:48] it's like a business. you know, it's

[1:08:50] like you're a running influencer, quote

[1:08:52] unquote,

[1:08:53] >> in the best kind of interpretation of

[1:08:56] that phrase that has a kind of porative

[1:08:59] connotation.

[1:09:00] >> When I first started running, I was

[1:09:01] already making like content and stuff

[1:09:03] like on LinkedIn for work. So, I was

[1:09:04] very familiar with like just making

[1:09:06] content, editing videos. So, when I

[1:09:08] started running, I started posting more.

[1:09:11] And the cool part about the sobriety

[1:09:13] thing, going to the gym, and then the

[1:09:16] running was I would share like just what

[1:09:18] I did. and some of the things I was

[1:09:20] doing was so far outside of what people

[1:09:22] that I knew would see on a day-to-day

[1:09:24] basis. People responded to it really

[1:09:26] well. Just like the it wasn't about

[1:09:28] influencer cuz there was no influencers

[1:09:29] to me at like 2019 or 18. But the people

[1:09:32] who give me like little kudos here and

[1:09:34] there saying like, "Oh, wow. This is

[1:09:35] really cool. Keep going. Oh, wow. You're

[1:09:37] a year sober. Great. Keep going." That's

[1:09:39] what I needed. I needed like some of

[1:09:40] that reinforcement that that what I did

[1:09:43] mattered not only to me, but it

[1:09:44] potentially mattered to other people.

[1:09:46] And I just needed that nudge to keep

[1:09:47] pushing. So, like as I that that journey

[1:09:50] went on, I started just getting more,

[1:09:52] you know, just a little better at making

[1:09:53] content and seeing people on YouTube do

[1:09:55] cool videos. So, I tried to make my own

[1:09:56] little cool videos on on Instagram. Um,

[1:10:00] but then after like during 2020, um,

[1:10:04] obviously I mean I was already working

[1:10:05] from home cuz I had already moved back

[1:10:06] here, I mean back to Michigan. So, um, I

[1:10:10] was, you know, I just had a little bit

[1:10:13] more time because everything slowed

[1:10:14] down, work slowed down. So then I

[1:10:16] started, you know, really kind of

[1:10:17] leaning in and making some content. And

[1:10:19] then one thing that I felt I felt like

[1:10:21] that was very prevalent in that moment

[1:10:22] for me is like after like co happened.

[1:10:25] So obviously like life is strange and

[1:10:28] weird and kind of scary because you're

[1:10:30] like who what's next? But then Ahmad

[1:10:33] Arbory, George Floyd, it's like, okay,

[1:10:37] like number one, I as a black man in

[1:10:40] America, I felt very just vulnerable at

[1:10:43] that time

[1:10:44] >> that my job could be just gone because

[1:10:47] of COVID. My life could be gone because

[1:10:49] of, you know, anything or racism.

[1:10:52] >> So, I'm looking at my kids like, if

[1:10:55] something happens to me, what have I

[1:10:56] left behind for them? the fact that I'm

[1:10:58] sober sweet, you know, but I'm like, let

[1:11:01] me start doing something that I feel

[1:11:02] like they can be they can see and

[1:11:05] something that's like a little more

[1:11:06] tangible than just like he was a cool

[1:11:08] guy and he ran or something like that.

[1:11:11] So, I started a um I heard this phrase

[1:11:14] said run eater Pete like years before

[1:11:19] and so I'm like you know I'm about to

[1:11:20] print shirts and make shirts that say

[1:11:21] run sleeper Pete. So that was like my

[1:11:23] like foray into like starting a company

[1:11:26] and having shirts for sale. People liked

[1:11:28] it. People were supporting it. And as I

[1:11:30] was doing that, like my social media

[1:11:31] presence was kind of growing like very

[1:11:33] slowly. But then I'm like, okay, how do

[1:11:36] I sell these shirts? Like what can I do

[1:11:38] around that? And then watching your

[1:11:40] podcast, I'm like, I could do like a

[1:11:41] podcast, right? And so I started doing

[1:11:43] live videos of the Run Eat Sleep show.

[1:11:46] So then I started doing live videos with

[1:11:48] people I knew. I would ask people to be

[1:11:49] on the show and I started interviewing

[1:11:52] like really big names in the industry or

[1:11:54] in the running world as I kind of went

[1:11:56] on. So everything just started like

[1:11:58] growing at that time and I was also

[1:12:00] doing the Tommy Runs thing, also doing

[1:12:01] the show, but I was making a lot of

[1:12:02] contact with brands because of the show.

[1:12:04] So I was just like they were feeding

[1:12:06] each other. Um, and then eventually I

[1:12:08] got to the point where Tommy Runs was

[1:12:09] just doing well enough where me doing

[1:12:12] this show, interviewing other people

[1:12:14] didn't feel like my voice anymore

[1:12:15] because Tommy Runs was my voice and I

[1:12:17] could talk about sobriety and talk about

[1:12:19] the things that I'm feeling, you know,

[1:12:21] on the other side of the world, you

[1:12:22] know, like I was in I was in Tokyo uh

[1:12:26] with my mom cuz she came to on that trip

[1:12:28] to to run the Tokyo Marathon. I was

[1:12:30] there the day like the day that my dad

[1:12:35] that I was the same exact age as my dad

[1:12:37] when he passed like cuz I was very

[1:12:39] familiar. Our birthdays are only 5 days

[1:12:41] apart. So I know like February 19th is

[1:12:44] the day he passed. I know. So I knew on

[1:12:45] this day I'm the exact same age as he

[1:12:47] was, you know. So, like I'm able to

[1:12:50] share that story directly through the

[1:12:52] Tommy Runs thing and I can lean into the

[1:12:55] the the the what I think is potentially

[1:12:58] helpful, maybe very vulnerable but

[1:12:59] helpful for other people in that

[1:13:01] position. And so, I just kept building

[1:13:03] that thing, slowed down on the show and

[1:13:04] leaned more into the Time Runs thing and

[1:13:06] started working with brands because of

[1:13:08] those relationships. That's just been my

[1:13:10] like my journey a little bit.

[1:13:12] >> What is the mission that you're on? Like

[1:13:14] what is the purpose of all of this? It's

[1:13:15] like what are you aiming for or trying

[1:13:18] to accomplish in the in the public

[1:13:20] facing aspect of of running these races

[1:13:23] and training for them and sharing your

[1:13:25] sobriety story?

[1:13:26] >> Um it imposter syndrome going crazy

[1:13:29] right now. um in to inspire people

[1:13:32] through telling my story and doing these

[1:13:34] things like in an authentic way, you

[1:13:36] know, like if I'm if I say yes to doing

[1:13:38] a race, uh it's obviously for me because

[1:13:40] I learned in the program like I have to

[1:13:42] put a lot of my decisions with me first

[1:13:44] in mind to make sure that like what that

[1:13:47] I'm okay and I want to do this and I can

[1:13:48] be um of value to the people around me

[1:13:51] at least. So I have my own like personal

[1:13:53] journeys and like this is why I'm going

[1:13:54] to do that because I want to do it and I

[1:13:56] know that it'll push me to to work hard

[1:13:58] to get there. But then I I share all

[1:14:00] this stuff and um run all these races to

[1:14:06] present like my my vulnerable self to

[1:14:10] people and try to make it look good and

[1:14:13] fun and cool. But if if I can go run

[1:14:18] six or seven marathons in a year or the

[1:14:22] speed project from LA to Las Vegas, you

[1:14:24] know, 340 mi, if that thing kind of

[1:14:28] clicks somebody into being like, "Oh,

[1:14:30] well then I can do like a 5K or 10K or

[1:14:32] whatever or even a marathon, then that's

[1:14:35] what, you know, that helped him doing

[1:14:37] that helped me

[1:14:37] >> you know, pass past the drive-thru on

[1:14:40] the way home or like the whole bag of

[1:14:42] chips. It's like it doesn't have to be

[1:14:44] running, you know?

[1:14:44] >> No, it doesn't have to be.

[1:14:46] >> Inspiration is transferable.

[1:14:47] >> Yeah. So, it's like if if I can just be

[1:14:49] real open and honest in this journey and

[1:14:52] do things that kind of light me up, then

[1:14:54] I want to inspire people along the way.

[1:14:56] And some of that like when I started

[1:14:58] that company and selling clothes and

[1:14:59] stuff like that, that was also like in a

[1:15:01] way it's like what can I do that makes

[1:15:03] me feel good enough that I can position

[1:15:06] this and share in a way that someone

[1:15:08] else can be inspired in some way. And

[1:15:11] but that also goes back to the sobriety

[1:15:13] thing is is just people sharing their

[1:15:16] stories. They weren't doing it for me.

[1:15:17] They weren't sharing their their drunken

[1:15:19] story for me and their 20 years of

[1:15:21] sobriety for me.

[1:15:22] >> Yeah.

[1:15:22] >> But them being real and open and showing

[1:15:25] like the the process that they went

[1:15:26] through, that's what inspired me to

[1:15:28] change my life and saved my life.

[1:15:30] >> Let's talk about representation. When I

[1:15:32] asked you about your mission, you know,

[1:15:34] a big piece of this is is is about

[1:15:37] representation. like, you know, what is

[1:15:39] the the black community's relationship

[1:15:41] to running generally, to the marathon

[1:15:44] space, and now more recently the trail

[1:15:47] space?

[1:15:48] >> Um, so I'll just speak from like my

[1:15:50] perspective. Most of us didn't grow up

[1:15:52] seeing running done as a hobby um or for

[1:15:56] fun or for health or for whatever. We

[1:15:58] just we thought like we've always

[1:16:00] thought that, you know, running and

[1:16:02] jogging is a white people thing to do.

[1:16:04] >> Yeah. I listened to the podcast that you

[1:16:06] did with our friend Zack Clark. Yeah.

[1:16:08] >> And you're like, "No offense, like

[1:16:10] jogging is a white people thing."

[1:16:11] >> Yeah, it is. You know, I mean, it was.

[1:16:13] And that's what at least that's what our

[1:16:14] perspective was on it cuz um we just

[1:16:17] didn't we just didn't grow up seeing

[1:16:18] that like in our in our areas and

[1:16:20] neighborhoods. Um and if we did, it was

[1:16:22] it was definitely not somebody that

[1:16:23] looked like us. So, you know, as I

[1:16:26] started running 2018, you know, I'd go

[1:16:29] to some of these races and um it was

[1:16:32] wasn't terrible, but it was still like

[1:16:34] very much um an outlier thing to do as a

[1:16:37] as a as a black man in this in in

[1:16:38] America to be like running marathons.

[1:16:40] And I know that there's plenty of people

[1:16:41] that were doing it before us, but that's

[1:16:43] just like, you know, you come into these

[1:16:45] races and you don't feel represented.

[1:16:46] Well,

[1:16:47] >> what's interesting about that is, you

[1:16:50] know, at the elite level, the highest

[1:16:52] level of performance from the 100 meters

[1:16:54] to the marathon, it's dominated by black

[1:16:57] people.

[1:16:57] >> Yeah.

[1:16:58] >> But then like

[1:16:58] >> that's not trickling down participation

[1:17:01] level.

[1:17:01] >> I mean, okay, like you're not jogging

[1:17:03] with Noah Li, you know, like

[1:17:05] >> he's not jogging, you know, but like but

[1:17:07] then on the other side, like when you

[1:17:09] talk about the marathons, I mean, they

[1:17:10] are black folks, but they're also just

[1:17:13] different. I mean they're they're you

[1:17:15] know just from they're different

[1:17:16] different countries. They're born in

[1:17:18] different circumstances and that doesn't

[1:17:20] necessarily like that just doesn't

[1:17:22] resonate with you know people from

[1:17:24] Chicago or Detroit or whatever you know

[1:17:27] it's just not it's not us still in some

[1:17:29] way like we're just like oh that's them

[1:17:30] cuz they're from Kenya or whatever.

[1:17:32] >> So it just there's a disconnect there

[1:17:34] when it when you when in reality there

[1:17:36] really shouldn't be cuz it should be

[1:17:37] like oh that's obvious we we should be

[1:17:38] able to do that. Um, but as I like

[1:17:41] started to run and and grow in that

[1:17:43] space more and then 2020 happened and

[1:17:44] then Black Lives Matter happened, then

[1:17:47] people are starting to like we're

[1:17:48] starting to gain steam, people are

[1:17:49] inside or like, you know, not going to

[1:17:52] work necessarily, so they have more time

[1:17:54] to try to find recreation. So, we saw

[1:17:56] that running boom and black people were

[1:17:57] involved in that. And then you have, you

[1:17:59] know, people that are out like really

[1:18:01] pushing forward like uh Allison Deir,

[1:18:03] like shout out to her, you know, like

[1:18:05] people like that were like outside like

[1:18:07] talking about these issues and how, you

[1:18:10] know, the running community or running

[1:18:11] industry needs to to open and at least,

[1:18:15] you know, make space for this to be a

[1:18:17] path, you know, and as that happened,

[1:18:20] you know, you got run clubs popping up

[1:18:22] shouts like we run 313 in Detroit and

[1:18:24] all these big run huge run clubs right

[1:18:27] now. It's like started in those in like

[1:18:29] around that time and

[1:18:31] >> gave black people um a space to come and

[1:18:34] hang out and run two, three, four, 10

[1:18:36] miles, whatever that felt like this is

[1:18:39] our thing and we do belong at least in

[1:18:41] this spot. And so the more you saw that

[1:18:43] happen, the more you saw that trickle

[1:18:44] into like 5ks, 10ks, marathons. And as

[1:18:47] I'm going through like my marathon

[1:18:49] journey and sharing it intentionally,

[1:18:51] um, not being like, hey, I'm the only

[1:18:53] black person here, but it's like, hey,

[1:18:54] I'm here and here's the process that I

[1:18:57] went through and sharing it in a way

[1:18:58] that I think looks cool. And then you

[1:19:00] start seeing more and more people um,

[1:19:02] gravitate towards like, okay, marathon's

[1:19:04] next and let's what are we going to do?

[1:19:06] And as I saw like that thing happen, now

[1:19:09] that I've like kind of stepped into

[1:19:11] trail, I just walking into a running

[1:19:15] space that doesn't mirror or even

[1:19:19] closely resemble the progress that's

[1:19:21] happened on the road feels very um

[1:19:27] it feels intentional. It feels like like

[1:19:32] how is this possible, right? You know,

[1:19:34] like how is this happening? I mean, the

[1:19:36] trail, you know, racing, running world

[1:19:39] is is about as white as it gets.

[1:19:41] >> Yeah. So, and in being closer to it,

[1:19:44] like from from the outside looking in,

[1:19:45] it's like, oh, this is intentional for

[1:19:47] sure. But then you get closer to it and

[1:19:50] you know, you maybe talk to the right

[1:19:51] people and you start seeing like what

[1:19:53] the what the actual intention is, but

[1:19:56] maybe there's not enough paths or like

[1:20:00] whatever tools for this to change

[1:20:03] rapidly. So, as I'm like in this space,

[1:20:06] I'm like, how can I what can I do to

[1:20:10] like help this? Because I feel like I

[1:20:12] was I helped a bit like on the roadside

[1:20:14] just by sharing like my journey and

[1:20:16] pushing forward and speaking on podcast

[1:20:19] and sharing like my perspective on like

[1:20:21] what black running is and what like the

[1:20:23] black experiences are at these races and

[1:20:25] traveling around the world. um how can I

[1:20:27] mimic that or like lean into that

[1:20:30] feeling of not only you know showing or

[1:20:34] making a statement that that shows that

[1:20:37] there's so much room to grow here but

[1:20:39] doing it in a way that's pulling people

[1:20:42] in um and not necessarily speaking at

[1:20:46] the like not avoiding the issue but not

[1:20:50] but all my focus is on how do I make

[1:20:54] connections for like someone that's in

[1:20:56] Atlanta, what if I post a video or a

[1:20:59] picture or a shirt that makes somebody

[1:21:01] say like, "I want to support that, but I

[1:21:03] don't run on trails, so let me go find a

[1:21:06] trail." Or, "Oh, if Tommy just ran

[1:21:09] Western States, I don't even know what

[1:21:10] Western States is or like why it's

[1:21:12] important, but it seems like it's

[1:21:13] important. I can find a trail near me."

[1:21:15] And I'm not necessarily saying like we

[1:21:17] all need to be out there, but the fact

[1:21:19] that it's it's definitely it's just so

[1:21:22] much different than road. Like you don't

[1:21:24] run for 5 miles on the road and then go,

[1:21:26] "Oh, wow. Look at this." Like it's like

[1:21:28] >> Yeah.

[1:21:28] >> You know, it's it I was listening to

[1:21:30] Oprah Pod that she did the other day and

[1:21:34] she was talking about hiking is her

[1:21:35] favorite thing to do right now. And she

[1:21:38] said that like you don't look at the

[1:21:40] where you're going. You don't look at

[1:21:41] the top of it the whole time. You just

[1:21:42] kind of head down doing your thing and

[1:21:43] every like 10 minutes or so you can like

[1:21:45] look backwards to see how far you how

[1:21:48] far you've come. And when you run these

[1:21:49] trail races, like if it's a long enough

[1:21:52] race, you could run for 10 minutes, 15

[1:21:54] minutes, and if you can look around, the

[1:21:58] view changes so often that it's so like

[1:22:02] you find yourself looking at things that

[1:22:04] you never dreamed that you that you'd

[1:22:06] see. And I want that experience for as

[1:22:09] many people as possible, especially

[1:22:10] people of of color that like grew up

[1:22:13] that didn't think that they'd ever see

[1:22:16] themselves on a mountain.

[1:22:17] >> Mhm. [clears throat] I said on a on a

[1:22:19] panel once, it was like we did a little

[1:22:22] a shakeout run um for Trailcon last year

[1:22:25] and it's a four mile run. It's not very

[1:22:27] far, you know, it's just four miles and

[1:22:29] you get to the top of that thing. It's

[1:22:30] like right up near the escarment and you

[1:22:32] turn around and you look and you see

[1:22:33] views that I that a picture just a phone

[1:22:38] couldn't capture the beauty of this

[1:22:40] thing. And so if I can share

[1:22:43] my journey that would make someone

[1:22:45] potentially want to find that in their

[1:22:47] way, that's like what I have to do.

[1:22:49] >> Yeah. It's very much uh attraction, not

[1:22:53] promotion. You know, it's kind of a

[1:22:54] recovery principle. You're not trying to

[1:22:57] convince people that this is what they

[1:22:59] should do. You're kind of modeling the

[1:23:01] aspiration of doing it yourself as a

[1:23:03] magnet to attract more people and and

[1:23:06] demonstrate that it's possible. But when

[1:23:08] I think about why the trail community is

[1:23:12] the way that it is, I mean, you you use

[1:23:14] the word, you know, intentional. I mean,

[1:23:16] what are the the barriers to access are

[1:23:19] economic, obviously, there's proximity

[1:23:21] to trails, you know, for communities

[1:23:23] that are in urban environments, etc.

[1:23:25] There's not seeing somebody that they

[1:23:28] recognize or, you know, feel like

[1:23:31] represents who they are in this

[1:23:33] community. And now you're very much like

[1:23:35] serving that role for a lot of people.

[1:23:38] What are the other factors that you

[1:23:39] think have contributed to this? And and

[1:23:42] beyond what you're doing individually,

[1:23:45] >> what are the solutions

[1:23:46] >> to diversifying this sport? Because it

[1:23:49] started so granola. It's not like like

[1:23:51] these were cheap races. Nobody was

[1:23:52] signing up for them. Now there's a lot

[1:23:54] of money in it. It's very different. But

[1:23:56] um but it's not like

[1:23:59] you know lacrosse or hockey or you know

[1:24:02] or cycling or something that you know

[1:24:04] there's a there's a there's a huge

[1:24:05] capital expenditure involved except that

[1:24:07] there's having to travel to these places

[1:24:09] and that's obviously expensive.

[1:24:11] >> Yeah. I mean so I think it's just the

[1:24:14] some of the solution is like back to

[1:24:15] intention you know like it's um I'm a

[1:24:19] brand like guy like work with brands so

[1:24:21] it's it's a lot of my thought when I see

[1:24:23] like some of these spaces the community

[1:24:25] itself plays a big role in like how much

[1:24:28] they're like trying to extend that net

[1:24:30] or like the the like how much are you

[1:24:32] trying to show that this is an option

[1:24:34] like and attract people in but then

[1:24:36] you're also like I also look at the at

[1:24:38] the some of these uh the brands I mean

[1:24:40] because

[1:24:41] you know how it works like you choose

[1:24:43] some brands they go on a trip to Tahoe

[1:24:46] or whatever there's they're making a

[1:24:48] choice of who they want to be there and

[1:24:51] it seems like really simple and little

[1:24:53] but like you know I'm not saying every

[1:24:55] brand invite me somewhere but like if

[1:24:57] there's people that are already in trail

[1:25:00] and they may not be the biggest trail

[1:25:02] influencer in the world

[1:25:05] it's it's it's a vote to be like you

[1:25:07] know we I do want trail as a brand I do

[1:25:09] want trail to look different. I do want

[1:25:11] Trail to represent our customer base. I

[1:25:13] do want Trail to feel like everyone

[1:25:17] should be able to experience something

[1:25:18] like this. So, our vote as a brand is to

[1:25:21] make sure that we're finding authentic

[1:25:23] people that are really into this thing,

[1:25:25] but then they also serve as a catalyst

[1:25:29] or like uh people that will open the

[1:25:31] aperture of a community to be like, hey,

[1:25:33] you know, that's an option, too. because

[1:25:35] I think you know there's obviously some

[1:25:37] some economic issues of how or in

[1:25:39] proximity of trail and all that stuff

[1:25:42] but there's also a lack of or has been a

[1:25:46] lack of a communication of like the

[1:25:50] possibilities of it just period because

[1:25:52] two years ago

[1:25:54] >> I didn't see if you can see it

[1:25:59] >> and you're interested you you you'll

[1:26:01] make it happen you know like you can

[1:26:03] make it happen at least So I think that

[1:26:05] it just has to be more of a vote and a

[1:26:07] real thought like let's look back at

[1:26:09] road in 2019 2020 2021 and how much

[1:26:14] brands leaned in to making sure that

[1:26:16] that row was more diverse and these

[1:26:18] races are more diverse in the in um

[1:26:20] advertising and brand trips and blah

[1:26:22] blah blah blah. That was a very

[1:26:24] strategic effort, you know, on them in

[1:26:26] response to a lot of pressure, but they

[1:26:29] responded decent to it. So like maybe we

[1:26:33] should think about for trail let's

[1:26:36] implement some of that and lean into as

[1:26:38] a community whether it's brand whether

[1:26:40] it's um uh organizations whether it's

[1:26:43] conferences how do you lean into like we

[1:26:46] want this place to look like you know

[1:26:49] what we want a random trail race in the

[1:26:52] you know close to Chicago to look

[1:26:54] >> you know cuz this isn't about getting

[1:26:57] more people to one spot or like one race

[1:27:00] and access to western states or trail

[1:27:02] con or broken air like that's a separate

[1:27:06] that's like an entity within itself like

[1:27:07] that's an isolated thing but there there

[1:27:10] is access to these to trails much closer

[1:27:13] than that and much cheaper than going to

[1:27:15] fly to Tahoe California

[1:27:17] >> sure I mean most urban areas have some

[1:27:19] kind of natural preserve situation that

[1:27:22] isn't that far away

[1:27:24] >> but it's also a mindset thing like the

[1:27:26] idea of like I'm an urban dweller this

[1:27:27] is my environment like I I don't belong

[1:27:30] in those spaces like it's a it's before

[1:27:34] you even get into trail running it's

[1:27:36] like oh just like I'm going to go for a

[1:27:38] walk in a nearby forest.

[1:27:40] >> Yeah.

[1:27:40] >> You know could be a leap for you know a

[1:27:43] certain a certain person who was raised

[1:27:46] um to believe a certain thing about like

[1:27:48] who they are.

[1:27:49] >> Yeah. Like we like when I came here it's

[1:27:51] it's you know I see a mountain close by.

[1:27:55] Two years ago I would have just saw a

[1:27:57] mountain like just that just happened.

[1:27:59] whatever. I don't care. But as soon as I

[1:28:01] see it now, I'm seeing like, oh, maybe I

[1:28:03] should look on on on an app to find out

[1:28:05] if there's a trail or not. And I think

[1:28:06] that that's like that little switch of

[1:28:09] there's a there's a potential really

[1:28:11] cool view or like a really good workout

[1:28:13] that could be had if I just find a

[1:28:15] trail. And a lot of people just don't

[1:28:16] have that. Like if if you I don't even

[1:28:19] know all the trails in my area, you

[1:28:21] know? And there's people that have been

[1:28:23] in trail that would be like, "Yo, bro,

[1:28:24] there's a trail 15 minutes from you.

[1:28:25] Like what do you mean?" And that to me

[1:28:28] is just saying like let's open up like

[1:28:30] the the direct like line to like this is

[1:28:33] a possibility and if even if you only

[1:28:35] run on trail like once a whatever or you

[1:28:38] don't

[1:28:39] >> it just it should be an option or an

[1:28:41] unlock there and I think that that's the

[1:28:43] way towards progress is opening that

[1:28:47] thought up to to as many people as

[1:28:49] possible so they can decide how far they

[1:28:51] want to go when we push for like more

[1:28:53] people to more black folks and brown

[1:28:55] folks to be on on the road at these

[1:28:56] marathons. That doesn't mean, you know,

[1:28:59] everybody that was inspired by that

[1:29:01] doesn't mean that they ran a marathon,

[1:29:03] but they might have started going to

[1:29:04] their their local run club. They might

[1:29:06] have just decided to get to run by

[1:29:08] themselves and get healthy. But how do

[1:29:10] we just like get that rolling and get

[1:29:12] that momentum as a people and as a

[1:29:14] community?

[1:29:15] >> Were you the only black person running

[1:29:17] Western States? No, there was only a

[1:29:20] few. But I don't I don't know all of the

[1:29:22] people, but I think there was at least I

[1:29:23] can't remember if I saw any other black

[1:29:25] person at Trail Con other than you.

[1:29:27] >> Oh, okay. Well, Trailcon was a little

[1:29:29] different. Um Trail uh I was the only

[1:29:32] person that was I think that was like

[1:29:34] speak that spoke at Trailcon this year.

[1:29:36] Um that was black and there were like a

[1:29:38] lady that I know that was there. She was

[1:29:40] black. She counted I think it was like

[1:29:41] four of us at Trailcon

[1:29:43] >> and then probably less than

[1:29:45] >> thousands of people that attended that

[1:29:47] event. the Trailcon part and some of the

[1:29:50] Western States part. To me, that's it.

[1:29:53] The brands have a lot to do with that. I

[1:29:56] think, you know, there's a they spend a

[1:29:58] lot of money to be sponsors to these to

[1:30:00] these things. Yeah. It's become a very

[1:30:02] commodified event like all the vendors

[1:30:04] and like you know, ACG had a huge like

[1:30:07] presence there like every brand was

[1:30:09] showing up at Trailcon like and you know

[1:30:12] they're investing money in this space

[1:30:14] like it's a very commercial prospect

[1:30:16] right now. Yeah. And so, but like in

[1:30:18] that, you know, if a brand's a big

[1:30:20] sponsor, they're not it's not just them.

[1:30:22] They're bringing people with them.

[1:30:23] They're we know this influencer market

[1:30:25] is what it is. They're they've got five

[1:30:27] 10 people there just making content,

[1:30:29] having fun, running the races, being

[1:30:31] involved in the in the in the

[1:30:32] conference. So, it's like at that

[1:30:34] moment, I think that's the decision.

[1:30:35] That's the point where it's like, okay,

[1:30:37] like where how can we make that part

[1:30:39] look a little different too

[1:30:40] intentionally? that I think that's the

[1:30:43] move, you know, for some of these bigger

[1:30:45] moments is like how do we vote in the

[1:30:48] right direction? And it's not a

[1:30:49] diversity. It's not like a oh, let's um

[1:30:52] it's not a DEI thing. This is just like

[1:30:55] what do you want trail to be and look

[1:30:57] like? Do you want it just to be what

[1:30:58] it's always been? Do you or do you want

[1:31:00] to see some of the progress and

[1:31:02] innovation that's happened on the road

[1:31:04] when it comes to like run clubs and

[1:31:06] race, different types of races,

[1:31:07] different types of brands, uh making

[1:31:09] different types of clothes and apparel.

[1:31:11] All that came because just more people

[1:31:13] from different backgrounds were

[1:31:14] attracted to it. And we've seen the

[1:31:16] running boom because of so many

[1:31:18] different people. It wasn't because

[1:31:20] running stayed the same.

[1:31:21] >> So if you look at trail like how can we

[1:31:24] bring more more people from some thought

[1:31:26] they would be there forever, some never

[1:31:28] even imagined it, but those two people

[1:31:30] come together.

[1:31:32] It's it the possibility is like kind of

[1:31:35] endless.

[1:31:36] >> Sure. that was the topic of at least one

[1:31:39] panel at Trail Con. Like there's a lot

[1:31:41] of uh discourse around like what's

[1:31:44] happening to the Trail community. You

[1:31:47] know, it's it's grown obviously.

[1:31:49] >> Um but you know, there's a

[1:31:51] romanticization of like the early days

[1:31:54] where you would pitch your tent at the

[1:31:56] starting line and it was you know, a

[1:31:57] couple guys in vans or whatever and now

[1:32:00] it is what it is today. Is this moving

[1:32:02] in the right direction? Is it not? Like

[1:32:04] there are protectionists like we need to

[1:32:06] protect the purity of this culture and

[1:32:08] then there are opportunists on the other

[1:32:10] side of that spectrum who are like

[1:32:12] looking at like the financial

[1:32:15] >> opportunities that are available here.

[1:32:17] And in the middle there's like you know

[1:32:20] a variety of opinions about like what

[1:32:22] this community should look like and what

[1:32:23] trail running should represent etc. But

[1:32:26] the community is dictated by the people

[1:32:29] who are participating in that community.

[1:32:31] It's not dictated from above like this

[1:32:33] is who we are and what we are. It's like

[1:32:35] the people who inhabit the ecosystem are

[1:32:38] the ones who get to decide that and

[1:32:40] unless you are onboarding a diversity of

[1:32:43] voices, it's going to you know remain

[1:32:45] stagnant and kind of stuck in what it

[1:32:48] was before and it's missing out on what

[1:32:51] it could be by you know virtue of having

[1:32:54] a variety of perspectives.

[1:32:57] >> Yeah. Because like the more the you know

[1:32:58] to the people that like are are

[1:33:00] romanticizing like the old days and

[1:33:02] keeping some of these things you know so

[1:33:04] pure. Um I understand that like it's I

[1:33:07] mean I get that I get

[1:33:08] >> and there are certain races that

[1:33:09] probably will always stay that way like

[1:33:11] Barkley Marathons is never going to

[1:33:12] change. You know

[1:33:13] >> somebody's like would you run Barkley?

[1:33:15] Hell no. [laughter] Right. Like so

[1:33:16] >> I'm not ridiculous. Um, but it's like to

[1:33:19] those people that like are trying to

[1:33:20] like hold on to that, the running boom

[1:33:24] has showed us that like if you don't

[1:33:25] open the door to new voices, the way

[1:33:29] that things are going with social media,

[1:33:30] it's going to happen. They're going to

[1:33:32] they're going to people are going to

[1:33:33] start running trail regardless whether

[1:33:34] you invite them or not, you know, or if

[1:33:36] you if they feel welcome by you or not.

[1:33:39] And so if you feel like a like a real

[1:33:41] like trail trail purist and you want

[1:33:43] people to take care of the trail and you

[1:33:44] want people to to make sure that they're

[1:33:46] like respecting like nature and all

[1:33:48] these different things, you should

[1:33:50] openly be a part of the growth of the

[1:33:52] sport instead of like clinging to like

[1:33:55] we can't do this because of the you know

[1:33:57] all these reasons. open up a bit and

[1:33:59] realize that you could be like the the

[1:34:01] the generation or the people that help

[1:34:04] guide this growth in a way that stays

[1:34:07] and maintains like this this purity of I

[1:34:10] mean because we are in nature. It's not

[1:34:11] like we're just running down the street

[1:34:12] and there's some rules and guidelines

[1:34:14] that you should follow, you know, just

[1:34:17] because it's we're running on on on on

[1:34:21] borrowed land or taken land, you know,

[1:34:23] and so we should respect these things.

[1:34:25] And if you decide that you don't want

[1:34:28] this group to come because they are

[1:34:30] different, then they're probably going

[1:34:33] to do whatever they think is best for

[1:34:35] them at that moment. And that may not be

[1:34:38] in line with what some of the things

[1:34:39] you're trying to say. And then so it's

[1:34:41] just going to happen anyway.

[1:34:43] >> Is there anything else that we should we

[1:34:45] should talk about when we're talking

[1:34:47] about u representation and inclusion?

[1:34:50] Like have I even asked like the right

[1:34:52] questions? Is there something that I'm

[1:34:54] missing?

[1:34:55] >> No, I don't think so. I'm like you said

[1:34:57] earlier, I'm very much on that like I'm

[1:35:00] going on my journey and I know that I

[1:35:03] repres I know what I represent and I

[1:35:04] know who I am and so I intentionally

[1:35:07] just share

[1:35:09] because of that.

[1:35:10] >> And I'm not

[1:35:13] like I'm not as well verssed on all the

[1:35:16] things that are like the way to move a

[1:35:18] culture and a movement forward. I just

[1:35:20] know that, you know, if I can use what I

[1:35:23] have in my and the leverage that I have

[1:35:25] with brands or the relationships that I

[1:35:27] have with brands, then I'll just try to

[1:35:28] push um in that way. Cuz if I can maybe

[1:35:33] risk or like maybe not jeopardize, but

[1:35:36] if I can use some of those things that I

[1:35:38] have to say like, oh, hey, can we get a

[1:35:39] couple people couple more people invited

[1:35:41] to this space that wouldn't necessarily

[1:35:43] be invited by you? But just the fact

[1:35:45] that there's this, you know, dude with

[1:35:47] dreadlocks who's like running western

[1:35:49] states and every every other dude kind

[1:35:51] of looks like the same guy. Yeah.

[1:35:53] >> You know, a skinny guy with a probably

[1:35:55] with a mustache and you know,

[1:35:57] >> some good mustaches.

[1:35:58] >> Yeah. And you know, listen, nothing but

[1:36:00] love, but uh you know, I think it's

[1:36:02] really powerful. It's it's like you

[1:36:04] don't

[1:36:04] >> like just your being there, you know, is

[1:36:07] is making a statement louder than

[1:36:10] anything you could put into words. And

[1:36:12] it's it's powerful. Like if I if I could

[1:36:14] say like what I would love to recreate,

[1:36:16] I guess the feeling of or the thought of

[1:36:18] was like when I did uh the speed project

[1:36:20] in uh early 2025. Going into that thing,

[1:36:24] what I saw was who does this race if

[1:36:27] they do it solo is is like white and

[1:36:31] super tatted and really cool looking,

[1:36:33] you know. But then there was a guy named

[1:36:34] Malcolm who who was the second person to

[1:36:37] do like the OG 340 mi route. He's a

[1:36:40] black dude from from New York. explain

[1:36:42] what uh the Speed Project is for people

[1:36:44] that don't know before we get too deep

[1:36:46] into this.

[1:36:47] >> Speed Project is a unsanctioned

[1:36:50] um race from Santa Monica Pier to the

[1:36:53] Las Vegas the old the welcome to Las

[1:36:55] Vegas sign in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's a

[1:36:57] the original route that they did was 340

[1:37:00] mi um on foot and but there are no rules

[1:37:04] as well. So like there's relay teams

[1:37:06] that do it. It's a mainly a relay race.

[1:37:08] >> Most people do it. most people

[1:37:10] >> by relay because it's 340 miles, right?

[1:37:12] So, how many people solo it? And

[1:37:15] >> when you say there's no rules, like it

[1:37:18] doesn't even matter like what route you

[1:37:20] take to get there. Like people are

[1:37:21] taking all different kinds of routes.

[1:37:22] >> Yeah. So, there's only only like I guess

[1:37:24] technically there's only one route and

[1:37:25] it's like the OG route

[1:37:27] >> that's like if you're going to say you

[1:37:29] did the OG, this is the route you have

[1:37:31] to go. Any other thing is shorter if you

[1:37:33] can find a way to do it while being

[1:37:34] safe, not on the, you know, whatever.

[1:37:36] Um, you just get to go. So it can be as

[1:37:38] it can be as short as 200 like high high

[1:37:41] 200s or as long as 340 or unless you get

[1:37:44] lost it could be more I guess. But he

[1:37:46] had done Malcolm had done the 340 mile

[1:37:48] route solo and he was the second person

[1:37:51] to have done that OG route and not gone

[1:37:53] like through some of the other ways that

[1:37:54] people have like carved into this thing

[1:37:56] now. and he was really instrumental in

[1:38:00] like once he found out that I was going

[1:38:01] to do it, he like I met him before in

[1:38:03] like the marathon scene, but he hit me

[1:38:05] up and was like he was really helpful

[1:38:07] and like for me and my crew. Um, so he

[1:38:09] kind of like gave us gave me the the

[1:38:12] like audacity to like continue to push

[1:38:14] for this and make sure I showed up. Like

[1:38:16] one thing he said was like don't come to

[1:38:18] this thing and then just kind of fit in

[1:38:20] with whatever. Be Tommy runs like all

[1:38:22] the way, you know? That's kind of the

[1:38:24] ethos of the whole event. Like you said,

[1:38:26] like lots of tatted guys. Like

[1:38:28] >> there's a panache to this event that's

[1:38:30] very different from the traditional

[1:38:33] trail world. Like this is like it's very

[1:38:35] punk rock.

[1:38:36] >> Yeah, it is. It feels like and he helped

[1:38:39] me by just being him

[1:38:41] >> um and being being useful like re

[1:38:43] resource-wise and knowledge. But then

[1:38:45] when I went about it, I made sure like I

[1:38:47] lived up to like that part. I was like,

[1:38:49] I've been Tommy runs this whole time. I

[1:38:50] did this on the road already. just make

[1:38:52] sure you pull up and be you like fully.

[1:38:54] And we captured it and made a little

[1:38:56] documentary and everything about it. The

[1:38:58] cool part,

[1:38:58] >> you're saying that with a lot of

[1:39:00] humility like that documentary is

[1:39:01] incredible.

[1:39:02] >> Oh, thank you.

[1:39:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. I watched it for a second

[1:39:04] time um this morning.

[1:39:06] >> It's really well done. It's beautiful

[1:39:07] and it really illustrates

[1:39:10] the odyssey of this race and the highs

[1:39:14] and lows. like you just go to the depths

[1:39:16] of your capabilities uh and you're being

[1:39:19] tested, you know, to the fullest extent

[1:39:21] uh you know, possible. And it's all

[1:39:24] illustrated and beautifully beautifully

[1:39:26] filmed. So, I encourage everybody to to

[1:39:28] check out that documentary. I'll link it

[1:39:30] up in the show notes and stuff.

[1:39:31] >> And it was called and I called the hero.

[1:39:33] And I knew I was going to call a hero

[1:39:34] before, but it was really just it wasn't

[1:39:36] necessarily like I'm about to go be a

[1:39:37] hero, but it was that moment of um that

[1:39:40] storyline of like we all have to be like

[1:39:44] the hero of our of our own stories at

[1:39:46] some point. And we all did it at some

[1:39:48] point whether we decided to like I'm

[1:39:50] going to lose weight or I'm going to get

[1:39:52] sober or I'm going to start a company.

[1:39:54] Those moments where we had to decide to

[1:39:56] like no longer be the villain victim or

[1:39:59] guide for someone else. We had to be the

[1:40:01] hero ourselves. And me telling me doing

[1:40:06] this and like sharing my sobriety story

[1:40:08] and walk this whole time was just me

[1:40:10] deciding at one point I had to be like

[1:40:11] the hero of this journey and that

[1:40:13] hopefully people would watch it and

[1:40:15] decide to be the hero of theirs in some

[1:40:17] way.

[1:40:18] >> But the way that I shared it

[1:40:19] intentionally was like I'm like told the

[1:40:20] guy um this dude named Olu he shot it

[1:40:22] was his first time making a feature like

[1:40:24] a feature length film. Oh wow. He did

[1:40:25] just a phenomenal job. Like it's crazy.

[1:40:28] I never had didn't meet him until the

[1:40:30] day that we met in Santa Monica or I met

[1:40:32] him before at TR. He took some pictures

[1:40:33] of me. That's how that's how I knew

[1:40:35] about him. But spent six days, seven

[1:40:37] days with us. Um, but I told that story

[1:40:40] like that openly and show I mean, please

[1:40:43] don't get all the highlights like show

[1:40:46] all the all the crap that's like makes

[1:40:47] it challenging. And then fast forward,

[1:40:49] reason why I brought it up is cuz like

[1:40:51] this year, shout out to a d young dude

[1:40:53] named Mitchie Paul from from uh from

[1:40:55] Boston. He ran, he's the fourth person

[1:40:57] to do uh the OG route, a a young black

[1:41:00] guy from Boston. And uh it was like he

[1:41:04] did it because he saw me do it. And I

[1:41:07] also felt like that's it was cool

[1:41:09] because I also showed everything that I

[1:41:12] had to show. So it wasn't like I vainly

[1:41:15] inspired him. I showed them all the

[1:41:16] [ __ ] And if you feel like you're

[1:41:20] watching what I'm doing and and I share

[1:41:22] my story, whether it's sobriety or being

[1:41:23] black in space content creating or

[1:41:25] whatever, I want you to be inspired by

[1:41:29] something I do, but for the right

[1:41:30] reasons. And

[1:41:32] >> the inspiration doesn't come from uh

[1:41:35] this this idea that you're out crushing

[1:41:39] it. Like, you're you're just so beaten

[1:41:42] up, dude. Like, it's shocking that you

[1:41:44] finished this race. like you're so far

[1:41:46] away from Vegas and you can't even walk,

[1:41:49] you know, and you've just got like an

[1:41:50] insane number of miles left before

[1:41:52] you're going to get there.

[1:41:54] >> And the inspiration is like how did he

[1:41:56] even like

[1:41:58] >> complete this thing? Like you were just

[1:42:00] absolutely broken. That's what I wanted

[1:42:03] to show because that to me is the same

[1:42:06] story as as us or me in sobriety because

[1:42:09] you're just like like shredded to pieces

[1:42:12] at some point and like how do you

[1:42:15] continue like how do you keep keep going

[1:42:17] and how do you make make that decision

[1:42:20] for yourself even though like

[1:42:21] everything's telling you to stop or

[1:42:23] saying that you can't make it or can't

[1:42:25] do it.

[1:42:25] >> So how do you do that?

[1:42:28] To me, it's like that

[1:42:31] somewhere you you've you've made some

[1:42:34] decision that you're willing to go as

[1:42:38] far as you possibly can and then a

[1:42:41] little bit more. Partially because, you

[1:42:44] know, I feel like I owe it to myself to

[1:42:46] go farther than I thought and dig deeper

[1:42:50] than I thought I could because I don't

[1:42:52] think I'll ever be as low even in that

[1:42:54] whole dock. I'll never be as low as I

[1:42:56] was in those last like couple years of

[1:42:58] sobriety. Just never. I don't care if

[1:43:01] I'm choosing to do this. Like it's my I

[1:43:04] want to do this. It may be terrible in

[1:43:06] that moment, but I got to remind myself

[1:43:07] that I can go further because like this

[1:43:09] is what I decided to do.

[1:43:10] >> To me, what you did and the documentary

[1:43:14] that you made about that journey is a

[1:43:18] living breathing document. It's the

[1:43:20] embodiment of this idea I believe in

[1:43:22] that we're all so much more capable than

[1:43:25] we allow ourselves to believe and that

[1:43:27] our darkest moments and our depths of

[1:43:30] despair and our trauma are actually

[1:43:33] engines of change and transformation.

[1:43:35] >> Yeah, you want we can redo the

[1:43:37] documentary. You could narrate it.

[1:43:39] [laughter]

[1:43:39] >> No, I it's perfect as it is, dude. Yeah,

[1:43:43] it really illustrates those are the

[1:43:44] themes, you know, that come across for

[1:43:46] me

[1:43:47] >> that these low moments are not things to

[1:43:50] be ashamed of. They're things to be

[1:43:52] leveraged.

[1:43:52] >> Yeah.

[1:43:53] >> Um and the way that you do that is the

[1:43:57] way that you get sober one day at a

[1:43:59] time, one foot in front of the other.

[1:44:02] What's the next right thing to do?

[1:44:04] What's the contrary action to take? and

[1:44:07] cultivating this familiarity, this

[1:44:09] relationship with discomfort as a friend

[1:44:12] rather than something to avoid.

[1:44:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this like this

[1:44:16] choosing the the uncomfortable thing to

[1:44:19] do when you know it's against your lower

[1:44:21] nature is like if I could say that to

[1:44:24] myself over and over, I think I'd still

[1:44:26] even be a better person. if you can

[1:44:28] choose to lean into that like that thing

[1:44:30] that's saying you really should do this

[1:44:31] even though you don't want to, you know,

[1:44:33] that's what I lacked for so long, you

[1:44:35] know, and that's why I, you know,

[1:44:37] essentially like hated myself and who I

[1:44:39] was and who I was going to be was just

[1:44:41] because of this like

[1:44:43] my first thought was always go towards

[1:44:45] like what's comfortable now even if it

[1:44:47] was the most painful choice.

[1:44:48] >> Mhm. That has to be the hardest thing

[1:44:51] that you've done

[1:44:52] >> that that distance.

[1:44:53] >> Yeah. that race in comparison to western

[1:44:56] states or are they all just some version

[1:44:58] of awful?

[1:44:59] >> Yeah, they're all some they're all some

[1:45:00] version of awful. The Speed Project 340

[1:45:02] was was challenging, but it was like it

[1:45:04] felt like I was all the pain was spread

[1:45:06] out over like a few days instead of like

[1:45:10] Western States was was challenging,

[1:45:12] really tough like in its own right

[1:45:13] because it was such a short period of

[1:45:15] time and you have like a thought of like

[1:45:17] when I want to finish this thing. Um

[1:45:18] like I wanted to finish in 22 hours and

[1:45:20] I finished in 2455 which I'm still happy

[1:45:23] about. But it's like

[1:45:26] boiling it down to like a day of

[1:45:28] movement and having like a time goal in

[1:45:31] in mind is to me just made the speed

[1:45:34] project feel like a little easier in a

[1:45:37] sense. Um but it's all it's all like

[1:45:39] some version of of crap.

[1:45:41] >> What is the difference? Like you're a

[1:45:43] marathon guy. You've done all these

[1:45:44] marathons for a long time. You're like

[1:45:46] the guy who's always at every marathon

[1:45:48] and now you're in the trail world. like

[1:45:50] how do you put to words like the

[1:45:52] difference in those experiences? And

[1:45:55] then

[1:45:56] secondarily, like how do you change your

[1:45:59] training to train for these kinds of

[1:46:01] races versus marathons?

[1:46:03] >> I guess I've never I never like looked

[1:46:04] at it like differently like showing up

[1:46:06] and doing this. I I look at it the same

[1:46:08] because I'm still me wherever I'm going

[1:46:09] to go. I just try to look at it the

[1:46:11] exact same and just share as I'm going

[1:46:13] along. um and just connect and and and

[1:46:17] bring the presence that I feel like

[1:46:19] maybe is lacking in the room and and

[1:46:20] like that might be mine, you know, and

[1:46:22] just making sure that I'm like truthful

[1:46:24] and honest in like whatever answers or

[1:46:25] whatever questions I get asked.

[1:46:27] >> There's this idea like a marathon is

[1:46:29] long and it's super hard, but you know,

[1:46:31] in

[1:46:32] >> 240, whether it's, you know, 246 or 4

[1:46:36] and a half hours or 6 hours, it's going

[1:46:37] to be over, right? Like you're gonna

[1:46:39] you're going to be on this trail for

[1:46:41] what is going to feel like a lifetime by

[1:46:43] comparison. Yeah. To me, to be honest,

[1:46:46] like once I did the speed project, I

[1:46:48] think I think I kind of started on the

[1:46:49] deep end, you know?

[1:46:50] >> Yeah.

[1:46:51] >> I I really [laughter]

[1:46:54] >> I enjoy like this

[1:46:55] >> the pyramid's upside down. Yeah.

[1:46:57] >> I feel like and then I'll be down to 50

[1:46:59] miles. But um I feel like I enjoy this

[1:47:01] this I enjoy this like low level of like

[1:47:05] consistent discomfort in negotiating

[1:47:09] with yourself. Like in a marathon, you

[1:47:11] do it is over much quicker and it seems

[1:47:14] like to me there's just less opportunity

[1:47:16] to make a choice to stop. You know, like

[1:47:19] during a 100 mile race or 100k, there's

[1:47:21] so many exit points. There's so many

[1:47:23] exit ramps where you could just be like,

[1:47:24] "Yeah, I'm done." You know, and you're

[1:47:26] you're negotiating with yourself for

[1:47:28] hours and hours and hours. You know, out

[1:47:30] of 24 hours, I probably wanted to

[1:47:33] like it's I en but I enjoy

[1:47:38] it feels like my life. 100 miles feels

[1:47:41] like

[1:47:43] what 42 years of trying to figure it out

[1:47:47] like as I go along and trying to talk to

[1:47:50] myself the right way and not lean into

[1:47:52] every negative thought or thing that

[1:47:54] happens. And

[1:47:57] so like when you get to a finish line,

[1:47:59] it's like you it's like you rearrive and

[1:48:02] like have like re like shown yourself

[1:48:04] again that everything that just happened

[1:48:09] in that race and everything that's

[1:48:10] happened so far in my life all still can

[1:48:13] come together

[1:48:14] and be a success. And I just don't feel

[1:48:18] like I have in marathons, they're just

[1:48:19] so much faster and it's just kind of a

[1:48:21] >> not a blink of an eye, but it is

[1:48:23] essentially just over much. It's just

[1:48:25] over faster 24 hours. You're not running

[1:48:27] a marathon for 24 hours.

[1:48:28] >> Yeah.

[1:48:29] >> So, it's like it feels like very

[1:48:31] gratifying to to do a 100 mileer or run

[1:48:34] through these different, you know, races

[1:48:37] and see different um scenes as you go

[1:48:39] through and views. You know what I mean?

[1:48:42] >> There's also the highs and lows that you

[1:48:45] experience. uh the longer the distance.

[1:48:48] Like if you're running a marathon, like

[1:48:50] you're going to go and then you're

[1:48:51] either gonna maybe you're going to blow

[1:48:53] up and like that's all she wrote.

[1:48:56] >> In an ultra, you can feel like it's over

[1:48:59] and then suddenly something shifts and

[1:49:01] then you feel good again, you know, like

[1:49:03] there there's it es and flows in a

[1:49:04] different kind of way.

[1:49:06] >> As you were sharing, I was thinking

[1:49:07] about uh Max Joliff's recent performance

[1:49:09] at Badwater, which is just absolutely

[1:49:11] insane. like yeah like like bow let's

[1:49:14] all bow down you know at at that

[1:49:16] performance it's like when you look at

[1:49:18] >> his stats I don't know if you saw them

[1:49:21] like he's running 730s and then he's

[1:49:23] running eights and and you're like okay

[1:49:25] when's it going to drop down to the

[1:49:26] 12minute mile it just he's at like

[1:49:29] eights consistently the entire time and

[1:49:32] >> I think it was I don't know if it was

[1:49:33] mile 35 but like pretty early in the

[1:49:36] race like he was like this is not going

[1:49:37] well and his he was having gut issues

[1:49:39] and he thought it was all over and and

[1:49:42] suddenly when he gets to the hills or

[1:49:44] what he has a second wind and like you

[1:49:46] know he just he comes alive again like

[1:49:48] there are these kind of mini deaths and

[1:49:50] rebirths that happen along the way that

[1:49:52] you're not going to experience in a

[1:49:54] marathon and not for nothing like

[1:49:57] >> you know it's 130 degrees out his body

[1:49:59] temp is like he even has his body temp

[1:50:01] metrics and there it goes up to like 101

[1:50:03] degrees like he's essentially running a

[1:50:05] fever you know

[1:50:06] >> and his heart rate never goes over like

[1:50:09] 138 like it's just like That is a

[1:50:11] bananas performance.

[1:50:12] >> Yeah. I text him after that and was

[1:50:14] like, "Hey, congrats, bro. How you

[1:50:16] feeling?" He said, "That race took

[1:50:18] everything that I had."

[1:50:19] >> I can't imagine. And you know, nobody

[1:50:21] has won that race without doing some

[1:50:24] version of a runwalk method. And he

[1:50:26] never walked the entire way.

[1:50:28] >> Insane.

[1:50:28] >> He only stopped to like change his shoes

[1:50:30] or whatever. Like that is just like the

[1:50:32] next level. And that's what continues to

[1:50:34] convince me that, you know, this is such

[1:50:37] a new sport and even when we see these

[1:50:39] outrageous breakthrough performances,

[1:50:41] like I think we're still at the

[1:50:42] beginning of seeing what's actually

[1:50:44] possible. And the longer the distance,

[1:50:46] the bigger the delta between like,

[1:50:48] >> you know, who's winning now and who's

[1:50:50] going to be winning, you know, what

[1:50:51] we're going to see in five or 10 years

[1:50:53] from now, you know,

[1:50:54] >> like with UTMB coming up, like I'm

[1:50:56] really interested to see like what

[1:50:58] happens there, you know, cuz it just

[1:50:59] seems like since I just started watching

[1:51:01] or looking into Trail even, it's just

[1:51:03] like the

[1:51:06] the the like advancements in like the

[1:51:08] the the gains that have that have

[1:51:10] happened over like a year's time are

[1:51:11] just really crazy. Um, and it's just fun

[1:51:14] to watch. It's fun to watch. Like these

[1:51:16] people are, including Max, like these

[1:51:18] people are ridiculous people.

[1:51:19] >> Like this the guy who won Western, what

[1:51:22] he finished in sub4 or something like

[1:51:24] that.

[1:51:25] >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's

[1:51:26] >> Yeah, sub 14. Three Three people

[1:51:27] finished.

[1:51:28] >> The pace at which people are running

[1:51:29] Western States now that are winning is

[1:51:30] just is off the rails.

[1:51:32] >> I was out there. I know it's not like

[1:51:34] Apparently, it's not hard.

[1:51:35] >> 246 marathoner and it took you uh, you

[1:51:37] know, 24 plus hours to finish this

[1:51:40] thing. some of the stuff that these

[1:51:41] people ran up at mile 90 something it

[1:51:44] like while I was running I'm like this

[1:51:45] is ridiculous like I got my friend Ern

[1:51:48] out there he'd never been out there he

[1:51:49] never seen it he's like I can't believe

[1:51:51] you're still we're still moving but yeah

[1:51:53] these races are just they're they're

[1:51:55] beautiful in their own like right like

[1:51:57] if you're if you are like interested in

[1:52:00] like these longer distances it's a

[1:52:02] journey like it's a it's like you said

[1:52:04] like the highs and lows the lows are

[1:52:06] long and you have to like manage your

[1:52:08] way through those and that's why I think

[1:52:09] I like it cuz I spent so much of my life

[1:52:12] kind of at this low energy or not low

[1:52:14] energy but like low like state of mind

[1:52:17] that like it's kind of fun to to be

[1:52:22] there and still and have to like

[1:52:23] negotiate through those cuz you know

[1:52:24] it's going to change and it's not life

[1:52:26] or death if it doesn't you know like you

[1:52:28] can you can stop if you need to and you

[1:52:30] know you can DNF this and the one thing

[1:52:32] about trail that's really cool is like

[1:52:33] DNF is not like some big shameful thing

[1:52:36] like if you if you don't finish a

[1:52:37] marathon the road scene is like more

[1:52:39] like like oh dang what happened like you

[1:52:42] you know if you don't if you DNF 100

[1:52:43] mileers it's like oh okay well next year

[1:52:45] you know

[1:52:45] >> yeah I mean sometimes it's just not

[1:52:47] going to happen it just happens but

[1:52:49] >> it's just been it's been really fun and

[1:52:50] and I'm going to run marathons still

[1:52:52] like I'm actually going to be running

[1:52:53] Berlin I'm not going to be racing it cuz

[1:52:55] I'm not like fit like that but I'll be

[1:52:57] running it and I'm always going to be

[1:52:59] around the marathon scene cuz it's just

[1:53:00] it's still so fun. It's still like

[1:53:02] that's where like my people are at and

[1:53:04] that's where I feel like that's where I

[1:53:05] started at. But I definitely want to

[1:53:07] keep pushing in the trail and like just

[1:53:09] see I want to see where I can go like,

[1:53:11] you know, helping, you know, increase

[1:53:14] visibility is one thing, but then I also

[1:53:16] would love to see like what me a couple

[1:53:19] years from now running 100ks, 100

[1:53:21] mileers, like I wonder what that looks

[1:53:22] like.

[1:53:23] >> Yeah.

[1:53:23] >> Finish time wise.

[1:53:24] >> Uh we left the training part dangling.

[1:53:26] >> Okay. Training in training.

[1:53:28] >> Training was cool. Like big shout out to

[1:53:29] my coach Melissa Johnson Weiss. She's

[1:53:31] been she I got her before my first

[1:53:33] marathon in 2019. So she's been with me

[1:53:35] all these years through all these

[1:53:38] different races, backto-back races, tsp.

[1:53:41] So it's like she literally just ramped

[1:53:44] up the numbers and changed some of like

[1:53:47] the the the like the concepts of a

[1:53:49] workout. And a lot of it was much more

[1:53:51] instead of trying to hit this marathon

[1:53:52] pace for a 10 mile, you know,

[1:53:54] progression run, it's more about like,

[1:53:55] okay, you're going outside and you're

[1:53:56] going to be outside for 4 hours today

[1:53:58] >> and just get outside and get moving. And

[1:54:00] the miles are much obviously the the

[1:54:01] weekly miles is crazy high.

[1:54:03] >> Mhm. But at the same time,

[1:54:04] >> lower volume, lower intensity.

[1:54:06] >> Yeah. Just you're just out there. And we

[1:54:08] still did like workouts like to for

[1:54:09] turnover to not make to make sure it's

[1:54:11] not boring. But she's done a really

[1:54:13] great job of like hearing what I wanted

[1:54:15] to do, believing that I that I would put

[1:54:17] in the work to do it and then and just

[1:54:20] give me a plan and like letting me do my

[1:54:22] thing.

[1:54:22] >> Um, so the training for it is just

[1:54:24] slower, longer, way more miles. I think

[1:54:27] for for Western States, I think I was

[1:54:29] like a couple weeks over 100. Um, but a

[1:54:32] lot of like just time outside and I

[1:54:35] enjoy just not necessarily having to go

[1:54:39] be obsessive over a pace for 16 weeks of

[1:54:42] training.

[1:54:43] >> Yeah.

[1:54:44] >> Similar to myself, your your influence

[1:54:47] sort of crisscrosses uh recovery with

[1:54:50] running.

[1:54:51] >> And that means that like me, you're also

[1:54:54] probably getting um a lot of DMs from

[1:54:57] people uh you know with questions about

[1:54:59] these things. And one of the things that

[1:55:01] I've that I'm curious about uh that I've

[1:55:04] experienced is uh a fair amount of

[1:55:07] confusion that conflates these two

[1:55:09] things like in other words that the

[1:55:11] recovery is is related to running uh in

[1:55:16] a way that like misrepresents like what

[1:55:18] sobriety is like oh if I just start

[1:55:20] running like that's the solution to my

[1:55:22] addiction problem versus like what you

[1:55:25] and I both know that it's anchored in

[1:55:27] like working this program and that's

[1:55:30] something that's very different and

[1:55:31] takes priority over the running. The

[1:55:33] running is a byproduct of putting in the

[1:55:35] work in the rooms of recovery and

[1:55:37] participating in in sobriety. But I

[1:55:40] would imagine that you probably get

[1:55:41] like, oh, like I'm I'm struggling with

[1:55:43] this, but like I've quit drinking and

[1:55:45] now I'm I'm running, but there's like no

[1:55:46] program there.

[1:55:47] >> Yeah.

[1:55:47] >> Like how do you respond to those people

[1:55:49] or try to be helpful uh for people who

[1:55:51] are

[1:55:52] >> either struggling with sobriety or sober

[1:55:55] curious and also running curious? you

[1:55:57] know, it's sort of like let's take care

[1:55:58] of the sobriety thing first, like and

[1:56:00] then we can get to the running part

[1:56:02] later.

[1:56:02] >> I think exactly that like I I remind

[1:56:05] people um that there they wouldn't know

[1:56:09] who I am or they wouldn't be DMing me if

[1:56:11] it wasn't for sobriety period. I started

[1:56:14] running a year after. So, a lot of times

[1:56:16] like I'll I'll people like to like if

[1:56:19] you do a podcast or an interview or

[1:56:21] something like that, they'll try to go,

[1:56:22] "Oh, he use you running to stay sober."

[1:56:24] And I like I make them change. running

[1:56:26] is how you got sober.

[1:56:27] >> Yeah. Like I make them change that cuz

[1:56:28] like I wouldn't I there wouldn't be any

[1:56:30] running if I didn't get sober. And so I

[1:56:33] just try to like remind people while

[1:56:34] they're trying to figure their thing

[1:56:35] out. I remind them what is most

[1:56:36] important to me. And most important to

[1:56:39] me is soiety cuz without that I wouldn't

[1:56:41] be here. It's as simple as that. Like I

[1:56:43] can't necessarily I mean I can say check

[1:56:46] out a meeting or whatever but at the

[1:56:48] same time like I just want to make sure

[1:56:50] that whoever's talking to me understands

[1:56:52] like what I put as a priority

[1:56:54] >> so that they can maybe look at their

[1:56:56] thing okay maybe I am using this as

[1:56:58] something that is unsustainable cuz what

[1:57:00] if you get hurt what if you don't like

[1:57:02] running after 6 months or whatever are

[1:57:04] you back that means you're back to

[1:57:05] drinking or back to whatever um so I

[1:57:08] just say like hey priority is the is the

[1:57:10] sobriety do that and everything else and

[1:57:13] do that for yourself, not for anybody

[1:57:15] else. Be sober for you and then

[1:57:18] everybody else benefits from that. And

[1:57:20] the running thing or for the cycle or

[1:57:22] whatever it is, that's all second or

[1:57:24] third or whatever, but never first.

[1:57:26] >> It's complimentary though, you know, it

[1:57:28] it it is putting the principles into

[1:57:31] action. Like you have to take contrary

[1:57:33] action. You have to take things one day

[1:57:34] at a time. You know, it's it's it's an

[1:57:37] exercise in humility because you're

[1:57:39] never going to you're never going to

[1:57:40] beat the mountain and you're never going

[1:57:42] to beat yourself and there's always

[1:57:43] going to be other people faster than

[1:57:45] you.

[1:57:46] >> And uh and it's also an exercise in

[1:57:50] confronting yourself honestly, you know,

[1:57:52] like you can't participate in one of

[1:57:55] these races, especially the really long

[1:57:56] ones or or any race for that matter

[1:57:58] really, and not have uh your denial

[1:58:02] upended. You know what I mean? cuz

[1:58:03] you're going to meet yourself where you

[1:58:05] are in in the truest version of yourself

[1:58:07] and that's an opportunity for growth

[1:58:09] like just like how can I move towards

[1:58:12] this thing that is uncomfortable it's

[1:58:14] going to teach me something and failure

[1:58:16] is good because I can learn from that uh

[1:58:19] and I can grow as a result of these

[1:58:21] experiences so it's not that running is

[1:58:24] you know something totally detached from

[1:58:26] sobriety and I think it's why so many

[1:58:29] people in recovery gravitate towards

[1:58:30] endurance sports because it is it's

[1:58:32] almost like a spiritual practice on some

[1:58:34] level.

[1:58:35] >> Yeah. You just like you just have so

[1:58:36] much time to to to work through these

[1:58:39] things like in movement. But if you're

[1:58:42] some of these longer races, like you

[1:58:43] said, there's so many um you meet

[1:58:46] yourself, different versions of yourself

[1:58:47] so many different times in these races

[1:58:49] if you want to finish and keep going,

[1:58:51] you do have to like have that

[1:58:53] conversation with yourself. I mean,

[1:58:54] you're out there sometimes by yourself

[1:58:56] for hours.

[1:58:57] >> Yeah. And you have plenty of opportunity

[1:58:59] to to beat yourself up if you want and

[1:59:02] talk crap to yourself or and or continue

[1:59:05] >> or like change that negative internal

[1:59:08] >> Yeah. narration

[1:59:09] >> and then but then that lasts for 20

[1:59:11] minutes sometimes like you you feel like

[1:59:13] a high for 20 minutes and you're back to

[1:59:14] that low again because something reminds

[1:59:16] you of the thing that was bothering you

[1:59:17] before.

[1:59:18] >> So it's it's it's the it's therapeutic.

[1:59:20] I was going to say it's therapy, but

[1:59:22] it's therapeutic in a way just to to

[1:59:25] know that you are you've signed yourself

[1:59:28] up for a task that is going to require

[1:59:31] you to

[1:59:34] to dig so deep, you know, to continue at

[1:59:38] certain moments um that when you finish

[1:59:42] it just it feels like you you're a

[1:59:44] different person on the other side of

[1:59:45] these races if you allow it. because you

[1:59:47] could go through and kind of, you know,

[1:59:49] only look at the highs and go like,

[1:59:51] "Okay, I'm great." But I also it that's

[1:59:54] pointless. That's also like when people

[1:59:56] are sober and they're only just looking

[1:59:57] at the the the the fancy stuff that they

[2:00:00] get to tell people how many like how

[2:00:01] long they've been sober.

[2:00:02] >> They they are transformative

[2:00:03] experiences. Like each and every one of

[2:00:05] them is like its own hero's journey.

[2:00:07] >> 100%. Yeah.

[2:00:08] >> And I'm just I'm grateful that like I'm

[2:00:10] grateful that I started backwards and

[2:00:12] did the TSB thing first,

[2:00:13] >> but I'm just like I'm so grateful to

[2:00:15] like to be out there like I when I was

[2:00:19] when I was in at Western, I planned on

[2:00:21] being done before the sun rose,

[2:00:22] >> but like the one of the most beautiful

[2:00:24] moments of that race was after like

[2:00:26] coming to terms with like I wasn't

[2:00:27] having the day that I wanted to have

[2:00:28] around like 19 or 20 hours in that I was

[2:00:31] gonna I was going to miss this goal of

[2:00:33] the 22-hour thing and may maybe even the

[2:00:36] 24h hour the sub 4 like once I like in

[2:00:39] motion like was able to like keep moving

[2:00:42] forward but then also like grapple with

[2:00:44] that disappointment potentially and

[2:00:47] rephrase and reframe like what life was

[2:00:50] at that second or that time got to this

[2:00:53] point where the sun rose that I didn't

[2:00:54] think I was going to see and it was the

[2:00:56] most beautiful moment and like joyful

[2:00:58] moment of the race when I looked around

[2:01:01] and saw like this sun rising over the

[2:01:03] mountain and that to me is like we all

[2:01:06] thought we were going to be somewhere

[2:01:08] different or somewhere better at this

[2:01:10] point. But if you stop thinking about

[2:01:13] like the future or the lack of the

[2:01:15] future that you thought you wanted and

[2:01:17] really stay like exactly where you are,

[2:01:18] like be where your feet are and be in

[2:01:20] this moment, it's so many beautiful

[2:01:22] things like right in front of us. And

[2:01:24] we're experiencing so many things to be

[2:01:26] grateful for. even in the midst of like

[2:01:29] the most terrible or tough moments of

[2:01:31] our lives, there's always something like

[2:01:33] right there that we can be eternally

[2:01:36] grateful for. And running to me shows me

[2:01:39] that just in much more like physical

[2:01:41] sense. And then I get to go home and try

[2:01:44] to figure out like how what I learned

[2:01:47] from that moment and then how can I

[2:01:49] actually like live that out in a

[2:01:50] day-to-day basis and maybe even like

[2:01:52] impart some wisdom like onto my kids

[2:01:54] first and then maybe other people after.

[2:01:55] It's a very elaborate extensive

[2:01:57] gratitude practice,

[2:01:59] >> you know, [gasps]

[2:01:59] >> but that opportunity to frame it uh you

[2:02:02] know having agency over how you you know

[2:02:05] decide uh whether this was a good or a

[2:02:07] bad experience, whether or not it went

[2:02:09] your way or not. Like another example of

[2:02:11] that is Molly Sidell who Olympic

[2:02:15] marathon like the elite of the elite of

[2:02:17] the elite who like is like okay now I'm

[2:02:19] going into trail and you know there

[2:02:21] isn't that much time or distance between

[2:02:23] when she was just like you know the

[2:02:25] world's best essentially

[2:02:27] >> uh and things didn't go her way at

[2:02:29] Western states she ends up finishing

[2:02:30] around the same time you do I don't know

[2:02:32] exactly like in the same range right

[2:02:35] that could be chocked up as like a

[2:02:37] failure or like oh turns about like the

[2:02:41] Olympic marathon like that doesn't

[2:02:42] translate on the trail but it's actually

[2:02:44] a story of triumph because almost

[2:02:47] anybody else in her shoes would have

[2:02:49] pulled out and she's like I am finishing

[2:02:51] this thing

[2:02:51] >> and it was just the most kind of

[2:02:53] courageous you know kind of statement

[2:02:56] that she could make and ends up

[2:02:58] >> being this inspirational story rather

[2:03:00] than like an example of failing. I mean,

[2:03:03] to me, it just shows it shows me where

[2:03:05] like where her ego lies. And her ego is

[2:03:08] is more so on the like I'm going to

[2:03:10] finish what I started thing as opposed

[2:03:12] to like a ego of what people are going

[2:03:14] to think of of this time because like

[2:03:16] you said, if somebody in her shoes

[2:03:19] >> pulling the plug and then just signing

[2:03:21] up for a different race, you know, and

[2:03:22] just running as a professional. But I

[2:03:24] saw that and like huge hats off to her

[2:03:27] cuz a lot of people that were elites and

[2:03:28] pro and pros dropped out that day and no

[2:03:31] like shame in that. they made the

[2:03:32] decision that worked for them, but she

[2:03:34] signed on and was like, "Nope, I'm gonna

[2:03:37] I'm finishing." And who cares what

[2:03:40] everybody else thinks as long as she

[2:03:41] crossed that finish line and was proud

[2:03:43] of herself and felt like she

[2:03:45] >> Yeah. And she was so like it looked like

[2:03:47] a very cathartic experience for her.

[2:03:49] >> Yeah. And and I I love that like that's

[2:03:52] >> I mean cuz that's more realistic to all

[2:03:54] of us anyway.

[2:03:55] >> Mhm. the perfect race day like happens

[2:03:58] for who you know like very very rarely

[2:04:00] even on the marathon side you don't like

[2:04:02] strike a perfect race all the time her

[2:04:04] having that moment and deciding to

[2:04:06] continue and push through and then share

[2:04:08] it and let it just be a thing and go on

[2:04:10] pods and talk about it that's like

[2:04:12] that's what we're doing is is living

[2:04:14] life and trying to do it to the best of

[2:04:16] our ability and and framing it or

[2:04:18] sharing it in a way that's like

[2:04:20] authentic true and like potentially

[2:04:22] inspirational

[2:04:22] >> yeah um all right uh I got a few uh

[2:04:26] lightning round questions for you.

[2:04:28] >> Okay,

[2:04:29] >> Tommy,

[2:04:30] >> Rich,

[2:04:31] >> what are you running towards and more

[2:04:33] importantly, what are you running away

[2:04:35] from?

[2:04:37] Um

[2:04:38] I'm running towards whatever's in the

[2:04:41] future. It's like I'll leave it at that

[2:04:43] cuz I don't know what's out there. Um

[2:04:46] I'm running away from

[2:04:49] the person, the version of me that was

[2:04:51] scared of the future.

[2:04:53] And once an alcoholic, always an

[2:04:56] alcoholic. You can hide, you know, in

[2:04:59] this world uh very easily like and and

[2:05:02] and be shrouded in in praise and

[2:05:04] external validation for doing these

[2:05:06] races. You know, we all have things that

[2:05:08] we avoid and we can use any device uh to

[2:05:14] make people think that we're not

[2:05:15] avoiding them.

[2:05:16] >> So, what is the next mountain that you

[2:05:18] have to climb? Not running wise, but

[2:05:21] like personal growth wise or like like

[2:05:25] spiritually or like in terms of you know

[2:05:28] your psychological well-being cuz the

[2:05:31] work is never done right. We know this

[2:05:34] from the rooms

[2:05:35] >> for just like my own personal like

[2:05:37] internal work. It's more for me it's

[2:05:40] about like for me it's about like loving

[2:05:43] myself you know enough to

[2:05:46] um align like my actual decisions on a

[2:05:50] day-to-day basis and or even like some

[2:05:54] of the things that I am aiming for or

[2:05:56] want to do or share with the world or

[2:05:59] all of those things are based in like

[2:06:01] how much will I allow myself to like be

[2:06:04] proud and love myself you know and cuz

[2:06:07] some of this stuff whether whether I

[2:06:09] want to like sit here and be cool or not

[2:06:11] is based in validation in a sense, you

[2:06:15] know, like I would run these races I

[2:06:17] think without people saying is cool, but

[2:06:20] at the same time that's also part of the

[2:06:22] thing that's like feeding like my will

[2:06:26] to do more. And somewhere under there is

[2:06:30] this is like is this kid that's like not

[2:06:35] good enough. Um, [clears throat]

[2:06:38] and

[2:06:41] I just want to make sure that like as

[2:06:43] I'm growing that I'm actually like

[2:06:45] checking that version of me and bringing

[2:06:49] that like up to speed

[2:06:51] >> to like not just preach a story that's

[2:06:56] inspirational, but like

[2:06:58] live a life that like that I'm actually

[2:07:01] proud of that if everything went away

[2:07:04] like I'd still be really cool with it

[2:07:05] and I would still Keep going forward.

[2:07:08] >> Beautiful, man. I love that answer.

[2:07:11] >> All right, the rest of these are are fun

[2:07:13] ones. That was the heavy That was a

[2:07:15] heavy one. That wasn't really a speed

[2:07:16] round question, was it?

[2:07:18] >> Yeah. Okay, thanks.

[2:07:18] >> I lied to you.

[2:07:20] >> What is the appropriate reaction when

[2:07:22] you wave at a fellow runner and they

[2:07:24] don't wave [laughter] back?

[2:07:27] The appropriate reaction of you passing

[2:07:29] a runner, unless you're like in Central

[2:07:31] Park where there's like a thousand

[2:07:32] people running, you wave back. you wave

[2:07:36] or wave back or a nod or something like

[2:07:39] acknowledge each other. It's just human.

[2:07:41] It's a thing, you know. If you see me

[2:07:43] and I wave at you and we've made eye

[2:07:45] contact and I saw that you saw me wave

[2:07:46] and you don't wave,

[2:07:47] >> I think that's just that's just that's

[2:07:49] just rude on

[2:07:50] >> what's just punishment for the person

[2:07:52] who doesn't

[2:07:52] >> straight to jail. Straight to jail. So,

[2:07:54] yeah. [snorts] So, yeah, PR Project we

[2:07:55] do

[2:07:56] >> we're talking truth here.

[2:07:57] >> Run clubs are cool.

[2:07:58] >> Um,

[2:07:59] >> are there too many run clubs? Have we

[2:08:01] maxed out on run clubs?

[2:08:02] >> Nah, I won't say that. I I don't think

[2:08:04] we've maxed out on run clubs. I feel

[2:08:06] like maybe um maybe we've maxed out on

[2:08:09] some of the same type of run clubs, but

[2:08:11] I think that if you're if you're into

[2:08:12] like Zelda and you got a Zelda run club,

[2:08:14] great. If you're a trail guy or girl or

[2:08:17] whatever, you want to run do a trail run

[2:08:19] club, do it. I think that um we can't

[2:08:21] like police or people gathering for

[2:08:24] whatever reason they want to gather.

[2:08:27] >> Training with carbon plated shoes. Hell

[2:08:29] yeah. Or super cringe.

[2:08:32] >> Hell yeah. Okay. Why?

[2:08:34] >> Why not?

[2:08:35] >> It's more fun.

[2:08:36] >> It's more fun.

[2:08:36] >> You run faster,

[2:08:37] >> you know? Or just like I mean they're

[2:08:39] built for fast and speed, but they're

[2:08:40] also built in a way that like saves your

[2:08:42] legs. I mean, it may not be super

[2:08:44] healthy to always run in them. I'm not

[2:08:45] sure. I'm not a scientist. I've heard

[2:08:47] people talk about it different ways,

[2:08:49] >> but I think that like some of the long

[2:08:51] runs that I have, it's like I I'll bring

[2:08:52] out some super shoes and carbon plate

[2:08:55] shoes and figure out how to get through

[2:08:56] this run and have a good day and put the

[2:08:58] miles in. And I see nothing wrong with

[2:09:00] it. I was in New York uh a little while

[2:09:03] back and did this podcast with Chris

[2:09:05] Chavez and Malcolm Gladwell. And before

[2:09:08] we started taping, Malcolm was just

[2:09:10] talking. He's like, "I love I love

[2:09:11] training in carbon blade is because like

[2:09:13] also when you're older, like you know,

[2:09:15] you recover faster."

[2:09:16] >> Yeah.

[2:09:17] >> All right, good. You're on the record on

[2:09:18] that.

[2:09:19] >> Okay.

[2:09:19] >> Um what is a real runner?

[2:09:22] >> Somebody that runs. If you run to me, if

[2:09:25] you run once a month, a week, whatever,

[2:09:28] you're a runner. If you can, if you have

[2:09:30] a practice, uh, your movement practice

[2:09:32] is running. No matter how often you do

[2:09:34] it or how fast or slow you do it, you're

[2:09:36] a runner.

[2:09:38] Related question, also related to the

[2:09:40] Run Club question. What do you make of

[2:09:43] the fashion explosion in running right

[2:09:46] now? Because I'm of two minds when it

[2:09:49] comes to this. Like, I think it's cool.

[2:09:50] Like, I I'm like excited about like some

[2:09:53] like flare coming into the scene. Yeah.

[2:09:55] and some interesting, you know, brands

[2:09:57] that are trying to do things a little

[2:09:59] bit differently. Um, it just makes it

[2:10:02] feel like more vibrant and fun,

[2:10:04] >> but it also could be something that a

[2:10:08] new, you know, quote unquote real runner

[2:10:10] might find intimidating. Like it's a

[2:10:12] price of entry. Like if I don't if I

[2:10:14] show up to my run club and I don't have

[2:10:16] the right socks or, you know, my kid is

[2:10:18] like, you know, not not quite there.

[2:10:20] Yeah. like I don't feel like I feel

[2:10:22] insecure rather than like putting out a

[2:10:24] welcome mat where everybody feels

[2:10:27] comfortable showing up.

[2:10:28] >> Yeah. To be honest, I don't think I've

[2:10:30] thought about it like that. Um that's

[2:10:33] interesting and I feel like that that's

[2:10:35] obviously happening somewhere, but I

[2:10:38] think it's all good. Um I feel like

[2:10:41] that's a person thing. You know, if you

[2:10:44] pull up to a run club and they've

[2:10:46] created a atmosphere of of like

[2:10:51] being a super welcome and making sure

[2:10:53] people feel like they belong there, I

[2:10:54] don't think it really matters what you

[2:10:56] have on.

[2:10:56] >> Um, but if you've allowed yourself to be

[2:10:58] like more high school and you there's

[2:11:01] clicks in that thing and they make

[2:11:03] people

[2:11:04] >> inadvertently feel uncomfortable.

[2:11:06] >> All the run clubs, it can be that kind

[2:11:08] of like high school clickish sort of

[2:11:09] thing. there's a hierarchy and all that

[2:11:11] >> and that's just that just rely that's

[2:11:13] that the weight is on the shoulders of

[2:11:15] the run club leaders you know and and a

[2:11:17] lot of them know that and they work hard

[2:11:19] to make sure that that doesn't happen um

[2:11:22] as often as it probably could if there

[2:11:24] wasn't somebody like kind of policing

[2:11:25] that energy and that's just like that's

[2:11:27] I never start a run club like like I

[2:11:29] don't want to be responsible for all

[2:11:31] these different things um and I probably

[2:11:32] if I started a run club nobody would

[2:11:34] pull up anyway but

[2:11:34] >> yeah it it it seems like it's starting

[2:11:36] to come look more like what cycling has

[2:11:40] always been like cycling like I remember

[2:11:42] the first time I wanted to buy a bike

[2:11:45] and I went into a bike shop like I was

[2:11:47] so intimidated you know it's like it's

[2:11:49] scary and it's sort of like if you don't

[2:11:50] really know you know like you don't feel

[2:11:52] like you can even ask a question and

[2:11:54] there's these group rides and you know

[2:11:56] there's a certain sock height and like

[2:11:58] you got there all kinds of like

[2:12:00] unwritten rules and yeah are your are

[2:12:02] your

[2:12:03] >> are your shades on the inside or the

[2:12:05] outside of the which is right the

[2:12:07] outside outside.

[2:12:08] >> Yeah. Okay. Um Yeah. And it it's

[2:12:10] ridiculous, right? And I can see like

[2:12:13] running moving in that direction with

[2:12:15] all these clubs and that concerns me a

[2:12:17] little bit.

[2:12:18] >> So,

[2:12:18] >> while also appreciating that like you're

[2:12:21] taking your kit seriously in your

[2:12:23] presentation and there's a fashion thing

[2:12:24] to it and that makes it fun and

[2:12:26] interesting, albeit an expensive hobby.

[2:12:29] I think that part partially like the the

[2:12:31] coolness factor of it and like these new

[2:12:33] things, I think that's also why we're

[2:12:35] seeing such a boom because it does look

[2:12:37] cool. And I think for certain

[2:12:39] communities, the the a cool factor is an

[2:12:42] invitation. You know, like when I first

[2:12:44] started running, I went into a store and

[2:12:46] they were I was asking for the right

[2:12:47] shoes and they handed me two pairs of

[2:12:49] shoes that I thought were just

[2:12:50] horrendous. And I'm like, "All right,

[2:12:53] dang." This is a real I'm like, "Oh man,

[2:12:55] I left my wallet in the car cuz I'm too

[2:12:57] embarrassed to say that I didn't like

[2:12:58] them." So, I just walked out the store

[2:12:59] and just didn't go back into the store

[2:13:01] and I like ordered some shoes online

[2:13:02] that I thought looked better.

[2:13:04] >> And I think that like some of the the

[2:13:05] the the vibe for sure if you can make

[2:13:08] something look cool, people will want to

[2:13:10] want to like come to it sometimes. And

[2:13:13] >> that's an intrigue, too. Like, oh, I can

[2:13:15] I can run for my house.

[2:13:16] >> I don't have to wear that super stuff

[2:13:18] that everyone else is wearing. I can

[2:13:19] wear this. And

[2:13:20] >> like if I can get a fit off at the at

[2:13:21] the run club and I'm also healthy and

[2:13:24] meeting people that are doing the same

[2:13:26] thing, that's kind of cool, you know?

[2:13:27] like that's like not just cool, but like

[2:13:29] that's fun and that's like that's

[2:13:30] positive. So, I think it's just really

[2:13:32] just someone needs to police or watch

[2:13:35] like that that that thing that could

[2:13:37] make people not want to be there. And if

[2:13:39] and if that happens, that's also why

[2:13:40] there's other run clubs. Like you come

[2:13:42] to run club and you're like this is

[2:13:43] really fun and great, but there's like

[2:13:45] 10 of us that just don't feel like this

[2:13:46] is our thing. Then that's why you people

[2:13:49] have started other run clubs like down

[2:13:50] the street.

[2:13:51] >> Two more. This one is also related to

[2:13:54] the question of what is a real runner?

[2:13:58] Are you following Whiz Khalifa's running

[2:14:00] journey? [laughter] Because this is the

[2:14:02] best thing to happen to running in a

[2:14:04] long time. Like I am so in love like

[2:14:06] with what that guy is doing right now

[2:14:07] and the way that he's sharing it on

[2:14:09] social media. I think it's fantastic.

[2:14:11] >> Yeah, that's he's he's that's the next

[2:14:13] guest. It has to be.

[2:14:15] >> I'm trying. Anybody out there have a in

[2:14:17] with I DM'd him, but he doesn't follow

[2:14:19] me. He's not going to read my DM.

[2:14:20] >> I'll text him. I'll text him.

[2:14:21] >> Yeah, text him afterwards.

[2:14:22] >> Yeah. I don't have his number, but I'll

[2:14:23] text him. Um but I know I think it's

[2:14:26] really cool. cuz I feel like there's

[2:14:27] been it's funny as well because like you

[2:14:30] see like the running industry and all

[2:14:31] the brands are just like in the they're

[2:14:33] not even in the DMs. They're like in the

[2:14:35] comment sections like going crazy.

[2:14:37] >> Um I think he's been rocking the 247

[2:14:40] represent lately.

[2:14:41] >> Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I saw that.

[2:14:42] Well, they Yeah, they got to him. I

[2:14:43] think Choros got to him. Um but

[2:14:46] >> he's sharing his choros little like

[2:14:47] graphic on the You know,

[2:14:49] >> I think it's cool. Well, like I mean we

[2:14:50] saw it with so many different likeuh

[2:14:52] entertainers as well and we've seen like

[2:14:54] there's just there's there's money like

[2:14:57] to be had like in the health and

[2:14:59] wellness space especially in running.

[2:15:00] It's such a big boom right now and if if

[2:15:02] somebody like him can come in too and

[2:15:04] and bring his like what he's created and

[2:15:07] the energy that he's that he's put into

[2:15:09] like the hip-hop and uh hip-hop scene

[2:15:12] and that's great. Like because if he can

[2:15:14] make other people that absolutely would

[2:15:18] never put on some running shoes and go

[2:15:20] out on a trail because he's in trail and

[2:15:21] road,

[2:15:22] >> that's fire. I think that that's really

[2:15:23] cool.

[2:15:24] >> And he looks great. Like he has the

[2:15:25] natural skinny runner's physique and you

[2:15:28] know and he's just like I don't know

[2:15:29] what I'm doing but like he's so in love

[2:15:31] with it. His enthusiasm, you know, is

[2:15:33] like really infectious and he's so

[2:15:35] funny.

[2:15:35] >> Yeah. And he and it's cool. That's true

[2:15:37] though because

[2:15:38] >> he makes it look cool cuz he's having

[2:15:40] fun doing it and he doesn't look like

[2:15:41] he's trying to look cool.

[2:15:43] just to be cool. He's just doing his

[2:15:45] thing and he's with Khalifa so it works

[2:15:48] out.

[2:15:48] >> I think it's it's fun. It It's

[2:15:51] >> that to me was proof that people are

[2:15:52] saying like the running boom's going to

[2:15:54] >> That to me is proof that like it's just

[2:15:56] going to keep like growing. It's going

[2:15:58] to look different in 5 years or

[2:15:59] whatever, but I just feel like this this

[2:16:01] running [clears throat] thing is like

[2:16:02] super here to stay on a mainstream type

[2:16:04] of level.

[2:16:05] >> Sure.

[2:16:06] >> All right, last question. This is going

[2:16:07] to [clears throat] hurt a little bit.

[2:16:08] Might be a little confrontational. Okay,

[2:16:10] Tommy. Um,

[2:16:13] am I correct in believing that from this

[2:16:17] point forward,

[2:16:19] uh, for the foreseeable future at least,

[2:16:23] or perhaps forever, you are only going

[2:16:25] to use Lidwig Goransson's Odyssey score

[2:16:27] on every single reel that you post on

[2:16:29] Instagram. [laughter]

[2:16:31] >> So, yeah. Yes, that is true.

[2:16:33] >> I think you've done it like

[2:16:34] >> So, whenever I'm

[2:16:35] >> 10 times in a row now, and I'm like,

[2:16:37] this he's he's like he's on his groove

[2:16:39] with this. I'm in there, bro. I've seen

[2:16:41] the movie twice.

[2:16:41] >> Me, too.

[2:16:42] >> Um, I think I'm gonna try I'm gonna go

[2:16:44] for three. Nine hours of my life is is a

[2:16:46] good investment.

[2:16:46] >> I think you should just like this is my

[2:16:48] thing. I just always use this. I always

[2:16:50] use this score for every real I make

[2:16:52] >> every time like all the videos that you

[2:16:53] mentioned like are the ones that like

[2:16:54] I'm talking and I don't normally talk

[2:16:56] directly to the camera as much as like I

[2:16:58] might I've used to. I've always just

[2:17:00] been like running and using like just

[2:17:01] different music, but I feel like it's a

[2:17:03] funny it's a funny like score to like me

[2:17:06] talking about something silly like

[2:17:07] growing a mustache or like Do people

[2:17:10] want to see my toes?

[2:17:11] >> And you have this like epic, you know?

[2:17:13] >> Yeah.

[2:17:14] >> So, it's like I think I'm gonna I'll

[2:17:16] make I'll make a video and I'm gonna I'm

[2:17:18] gonna tag you

[2:17:20] >> and I'll be talking about, you know, the

[2:17:21] fact that like I just sat down with you

[2:17:23] and I'll use the score. Is that cool?

[2:17:25] >> Yeah. As long as I can like post a meme

[2:17:27] in response,

[2:17:28] >> please.

[2:17:29] >> All right.

[2:17:29] >> I'll I'll allow that.

[2:17:31] >> All right. Cool. This was great, man.

[2:17:33] Uh, super fun. Uh, I think we covered a

[2:17:36] lot. Uh, wow. We've been going a long

[2:17:37] time. Um, you're amazing. I'm I've got

[2:17:41] nothing but love for the journey that

[2:17:42] you're on and I'm always behind your

[2:17:45] back uh spitting wind in your sales, my

[2:17:48] friend. I appreciate that.

[2:17:49] >> You're a beautiful representation uh of

[2:17:53] >> being a real runner and uh I think the

[2:17:55] mission you're on is is is beautiful as

[2:17:57] well. Auditory. So, thanks for sharing

[2:17:58] with me today.

[2:18:00] >> Thank you.

[2:18:00] >> Um if people want to connect with you,

[2:18:02] Instagram obviously you got your

[2:18:04] podcast. Where do you want to point

[2:18:05] people?

[2:18:06] >> Um Instagram. Tommy runs on Instagram.

[2:18:09] Um, I'm sure you'll tag it, but T M I E

[2:18:12] R U N Z on Instagram. And then a big

[2:18:15] thing that like we're pushing a lot

[2:18:16] you'll see there as well is PR project.

[2:18:18] That's me, Gary, and Aaron. Uh, we we

[2:18:21] sit down every other week and talk about

[2:18:22] all the things running and then we do,

[2:18:24] uh, some fun stuff. Um, but that's super

[2:18:27] important to me cuz it's like it's an

[2:18:29] extension of me and but it's it's my

[2:18:31] friends and we we represent different

[2:18:33] cultures that aren't normally seen in

[2:18:35] that like podcast world and

[2:18:36] communicating for and about brands and

[2:18:38] about running culture. So, that's super

[2:18:40] important right now. Um, I think those

[2:18:42] are the two places to find it. Got a

[2:18:43] couple short and longer documentaries on

[2:18:47] on on YouTube. Check those out and and

[2:18:49] hit me up if you want a shirt, too, cuz

[2:18:51] that's a statement that I that I want to

[2:18:53] continue to make and hopefully it turns

[2:18:54] into a movement that means something.

[2:18:56] >> You can buy that on your website.

[2:18:58] >> On my website, tommyruns.com.

[2:19:01] Um, yeah. And I appreciate this

[2:19:03] opportunity to be to sit here with you

[2:19:05] and talk and and do it in a way that

[2:19:07] like that just feels like the timing is

[2:19:09] right for it. And I can't wait to see

[2:19:11] what's next. So, I'm just ask everybody

[2:19:12] to kind of tap in and as I announce

[2:19:14] things, if you rock with me or you're

[2:19:17] you're liking where I'm going, support

[2:19:19] in some way.

[2:19:20] >> Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great

[2:19:22] time at UTMB.

[2:19:23] >> I will.

[2:19:23] >> All right, dude. Till next time. Peace.

[2:19:27] >> Thanks. You say it still sweet. I know.

RR
AuthorRich Roll

Ultra-endurance athlete, author, and podcast host who transformed from addiction to becoming a world-class athlete and prominent wellness advocate promoting plant-based living and…

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The Speed Project is an ultramarathon run from Los Angeles to Las Vegas covering 340 miles. Tommie ran it solo as part of his ongoing ultra-running practice, which represents the culmination of his transformation from addiction to disciplined endurance athletics. For him, the extreme distance is less about ambition and more about testing his ability to persist when everything tells him to stop—a direct parallel to his daily commitment to sobriety.
Tommie experienced rapid-onset alcoholism at age 17 and remained a functional alcoholic for nearly two decades before entering recovery meetings. The 12-step program and community support became foundational to his sobriety. Around the same time, he discovered Rich Roll's memoir *Finding Ultra*, which inspired him to take up running as a new practice for processing the world and building meaning in sobriety.
As a Black runner in a predominantly white ultramarathon community, Tommie initially felt isolated—especially as someone who was also sober and plant-based, identities rarely visible in Black communities. By building a platform and showing up visibly in running spaces, he removes that invisibility for other young Black athletes and demonstrates that sobriety, veganism, and distance running are possible for them too.
Tommie has said the term 'functional' is actually the wrong word—it suggests stability where none existed. He was able to maintain employment and family responsibilities while drinking every morning, but this appearance of functionality masked a profound crisis accumulating in his body, mind, and self-respect. The function was an illusion.
In 2024, Tommie completed six marathons in a single year, including the Osaka Marathon just seven days before running the Tokyo Marathon. This volume reflects his deep commitment to ultra-running as a spiritual and physical practice, not just a competitive endeavor.
In early sobriety, Tommie discovered Rich Roll's *Finding Ultra* and found in it a narrative of transformation that spoke to his own search for identity. Reading about someone thriving through commitment and reimagining what was possible gave him a concrete model. He later sent a voicemail to the podcast expressing gratitude, eventually connecting with Rich directly and now participating in the broader community.
Tommie co-hosts the PR Project podcast, runs his own running company, maintains a platform on Instagram, and works with brands as a content creator and athlete. He actively interviews and amplifies voices from underrepresented communities in running and recovery, effectively turning his personal journey into a resource and beacon for others navigating similar paths.

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