Transcript
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[0:47] So, good afternoon to everyone.
[0:50] Welcome to another of the uh Sunday
[0:53] afternoon talks. Uh we're just beginning
[0:56] the uh last fortnight of the Reigns
[1:00] retreat. So I think there'll just be
[1:01] this one and another couple of of these
[1:04] Sunday talks before the the vasa period
[1:06] is over.
[1:08] So the uh the theme for this afternoon
[1:10] is I know you Mara.
[1:14] So [clears throat] I'll begin in the
[1:15] usual traditional way.
[1:18] [snorts]
[1:35] Buddhas.
[1:53] when one uh comes across the figure of
[1:56] Mara in the uh Buddhist scriptures
[2:00] [clears throat] then uh particularly
[2:02] with a western audience and people who
[2:04] haven't grown up in a Buddhist culture
[2:06] although sometimes when people have uh
[2:09] there's often the question so Mara who
[2:12] seems to be uh a a deity a kind of
[2:17] mysterious celestial type figure who is
[2:20] the embodiment of everything unh
[2:22] wholesome The word mara literally means
[2:24] death. So the embodiment of all that is
[2:28] um tied up with delusion and death
[2:33] and negative qualities. Uh
[2:37] they the question easily arises often is
[2:40] asked so is Mara an actual entity an
[2:44] actual being that sort of lives
[2:46] somewhere or is this just symbolic? Is
[2:49] is this talking about delusion? uh is
[2:52] just uh just a like a psychological
[2:54] symbol uh a uh [clears throat] something
[2:57] that is a a teaching device and so
[3:01] people who don't like the idea of
[3:03] different realms of of beings or
[3:05] different invisible entities say well of
[3:07] course it's just psychological isn't it
[3:08] Ajan you know it's just a it's just a a
[3:12] mental force that's at work that's
[3:13] that's what we're talking about isn't it
[3:15] and others say well you know Mara is
[3:17] real you know isn't
[3:19] isn't that the case that there's a real
[3:21] entity going around causing trouble and
[3:24] uh so we'll look into some of those
[3:26] aspects uh today but I think the the
[3:28] short answer to that particular uh
[3:31] question is of both and
[3:35] both a uh a genuine entity who appears
[3:39] in uh in the teachings and is um
[3:43] in existence in the universe but also uh
[3:47] is quote unquote just a force in our
[3:51] minds that uh you have one of those
[3:53] areas where it's a um a reality that
[3:57] functions on different levels
[3:59] simultaneously. It's both symbolic and
[4:02] real at the same time. I would suggest
[4:05] but we can explore that and there'll be
[4:07] plenty of time for for asking questions.
[4:11] Certainly uh what comes across in the
[4:13] scriptures in the the pile cannon is
[4:16] there are definite dialogues between an
[4:19] entity and other other beings and
[4:24] certainly the way the accounts are are
[4:27] laid out. uh you have Mara coming along
[4:31] to uh to challenge the the Buddha before
[4:33] his enlightenment, after his
[4:34] enlightenment, challenging other members
[4:36] of the monastic community, invading the
[4:39] minds of various uh different different
[4:42] beings up in the Brahma realm or um out
[4:45] on the you know the streets of a
[4:47] village. Um so that the representation
[4:50] in the scriptures is uh very clearly oh
[4:54] this is a being this is an entity. Um so
[4:59] but uh one of the aspects of of Buddha
[5:02] Dharma is it's not a belief system and
[5:06] that the Buddha himself did discouraged
[5:09] blind belief or just assuming a um a
[5:13] fixed reality just because it's
[5:15] something you've been told or something
[5:16] that makes logical sense or something
[5:18] that a spiritual or or kind of academic
[5:20] authority has said to you. Um so
[5:24] [clears throat] I think it it's helpful
[5:26] to to um get that clear and um
[5:30] uh it's certainly that representation um
[5:33] in the scriptures. There are dialogues
[5:35] that go on you know the actual you know
[5:37] conversations that are are recorded and
[5:39] passed down. So, and there's nothing in
[5:41] the scriptures that tells you, oh, this
[5:43] was just in the the bodhisatta's mind or
[5:45] just in the Buddha's mind or just in the
[5:47] the mind of those those bikunis who are
[5:49] being challenged or threatened or just
[5:52] it was just a um a thought form. So, and
[5:57] I do feel it's important to respect
[5:59] what's there in the scriptures. Um, of
[6:01] course, you can say, well, a lot of the
[6:03] scriptures are just symbolic, aren't
[6:04] they, Ajan?
[6:05] So, that's another story. So uh just but
[6:10] I do feel that um the uh and I it'll be
[6:14] part of the reflections I offer um that
[6:18] uh this isn't just to be sort of uh
[6:22] describing Buddhist mythology and and
[6:24] asking people to believe things that
[6:25] they haven't seen or known with their
[6:27] own senses but rather understanding the
[6:29] value and importance of this figure
[6:31] within our um spiritual training within
[6:35] our own lives within our own meditation
[6:37] And you how our teachers from the forest
[6:40] tradition lump lump cha and others have
[6:44] sort of used that kind of presence of
[6:46] mara or the figure of mara in the in the
[6:49] teachings.
[6:50] So, so [clears throat] for example that
[6:55] um in the um the story of the the the
[6:59] bodhicatta what's called the pabasuta
[7:01] the going forth that you find in the the
[7:04] collection the of verses called the
[7:07] sutanipata that's one of the um uh the
[7:10] scriptures one of the the sections of
[7:13] the pie canon that's all in verse form
[7:16] so then it's at a time when the bodhic
[7:19] sata was in his uh austere training and
[7:24] uh he was extremely thin. He you know
[7:27] really exhausted and um having been
[7:30] practicing all kinds of of rigorous
[7:33] aestheticism was really skinny. He was
[7:35] so skinny in that in the same teaching
[7:37] he said I I would touch my stomach and I
[7:39] could feel my backbone.
[7:42] So really skinny
[7:44] and uh and it's sort of keeling over and
[7:47] fainting because of of hunger and
[7:49] exhaustion. And during that time in and
[7:52] in the pabuta that section of the sutin
[7:55] then Mara comes along and says
[7:59] the verse goes something like while I
[8:02] while I strove to subdue myself by the
[8:05] broad Nanjura the river Nangura uh
[8:08] Namucci came. Namucci is another name
[8:11] for mara with words all garbed in pity
[8:14] thus. Oh, you are thin and you are pale,
[8:16] you and you are uh 99 parts pledged to
[8:22] to death. Better for you now to to um to
[8:26] uh give up your give up your search,
[8:28] give up your quest, um pour libations on
[8:31] the holy fires, make merit, and that'll
[8:33] be much better for you. So basically,
[8:35] give up your spiritual efforts um to for
[8:38] enlightenment. um and do things to make
[8:41] merit because that'll be far more
[8:42] beneficial. And you got 99 parts dead
[8:46] anyway. So only only one part of life is
[8:49] is is
[8:51] still like a tiny thread that's that's
[8:54] holding you together. All the other
[8:56] threads have broken. You're exhausted.
[8:58] You're pale. You're you're keeling over.
[9:00] Um and so then the bodhicatta says you
[9:04] know uh namui
[9:06] oh evil one oh cousin of the negligent a
[9:10] wonderful expression which I think is
[9:12] the um pamada bandu is a parley for that
[9:16] oh cousin of the negligent you I know
[9:18] why you come here you come here for your
[9:20] own ends for your benefit not for me
[9:25] uh [clears throat] and he uh doesn't
[9:27] follow Mara's advice so that you have a
[9:30] an encounter right there.
[9:33] And then uh um and some accounts put
[9:36] this before the enlightenment um when uh
[9:41] the Buddha meets with has Mara has been
[9:43] trying to to dissuade the the the Buddha
[9:46] and distract him. Um, some pe some
[9:48] accounts put this before the
[9:50] enlightenment, some put it after, but
[9:52] it's where uh Mara has said, "I've been
[9:54] chasing after this this monk for seven
[9:56] years, and everything I've tried is has
[9:59] failed." And uh he he um uh utters these
[10:04] stanzas of disappointment. I haven't
[10:06] memorized them, but he kind of goes into
[10:08] verse saying, "Oh, wo is me. I'm a total
[10:10] failure. You know, I've tried so hard
[10:12] for seven years to to put this monk off
[10:14] off the track, and it's not working."
[10:16] And then Mara's daughters come along and
[10:18] say, "Father, can we help?" And they're
[10:21] called Tanha, Raa, and Arati.
[10:25] And uh which translates as craving um
[10:29] passion and boredom. Um so that's the
[10:32] his Mara's daughter's name. So they go
[10:34] along, they try to distract the Buddha
[10:37] or the bodhicatta depending on which uh
[10:40] which version you're reading, whether
[10:42] it's before the enlightenment or after.
[10:44] And then they also fail to to distract
[10:47] him. And uh so the later stories of the
[10:50] Buddha sitting under the bodhic tree and
[10:52] Mara's daughters coming in that's that's
[10:54] a later invention. But you do have this
[10:56] passage. It's in the the section of the
[10:58] connected discourses called the Mara
[11:00] Sanguta. It's chapter four. It's the
[11:03] fourth chapter of the connected
[11:05] discourses is all about Mara. Many many
[11:07] stories. and uh this encounter with uh
[11:10] with Mara and having uttered his stanzas
[11:13] of disappointment and uh the daughters
[11:16] going in to try and distract the Buddha
[11:19] being distracted by the falling
[11:21] microphone.
[11:24] Mara's everywhere.
[11:27] Mara in the realm of the condas
[11:29] mechanical Mara.
[11:32] I'll get on to that in a moment. Yeah.
[11:35] So, uh, and and then Mara says, "Yeah,
[11:38] you fools. You're you're like poking a
[11:40] rock with lily stems. You're not going
[11:42] to have any, um, any success there."
[11:46] Like a crow that was walking around a
[11:48] rock, uh, thinking it was a lump of fat,
[11:51] trying to find something edible,
[11:52] something delicious there, but, you
[11:54] know, the crow is disappointed. So, too,
[11:56] you know, you're you're going you're
[11:57] going to have to go away disappointed.
[12:00] And so, there those examples. Another
[12:02] one in that same section chapter four of
[12:04] the connected discourses uh describes
[12:08] after the enlightenment when the the
[12:09] Buddha was was meditating up in the in
[12:11] the Himalayas by himself
[12:13] and uh this thought arises in the mind
[12:16] of the Buddha I wonder if it's possible
[12:19] to to govern to be like a uh a political
[12:24] ruler. I wonder if it's possible to
[12:26] govern completely wholesomely, whether
[12:28] it be a whether one could be a political
[12:31] leader and not be taking life, not to be
[12:34] sequestering property like seizing
[12:36] property, not putting people in prison
[12:38] or or punishing or executing people. I
[12:42] wonder if you could I wonder if you
[12:43] could rule uh and and or govern a state
[12:47] in a completely wholesome way. And then
[12:51] Mara pops up and says, "Oh, yes, of
[12:53] course. I mean someone with your ability
[12:54] is very easy you know you that uh you
[12:57] could certainly do that it's totally
[12:59] possible to govern in a completely
[13:00] wholesome way and then the Buddha says I
[13:03] know you Mara
[13:05] uh and uh the Mara says no no no it's I
[13:11] you can be reassured you really have the
[13:12] abilities one like you who's completely
[13:14] mastered the four part of the four bases
[13:17] of success um as as fully and completely
[13:20] as you have you could you could do it
[13:22] you could
[13:23] you could you could show the world how
[13:25] it's done. And the Buddha says, "No, I
[13:28] know you, Mara. Uh even if uh
[13:32] [clears throat]
[13:32] you that with the with the best of
[13:34] intentions, it's not possible." And Mara
[13:36] says, "Well, look, you know, with your
[13:37] power, you could take the whole
[13:39] Himalayan mountain range and just turn
[13:41] it into solid gold. You could do that.
[13:44] And you know, think what you could do
[13:45] with that amount of money." And the
[13:46] Buddha said, "Yes, I could do that. But
[13:49] even twice that amount would not be
[13:51] enough for one person's greed. So I know
[13:54] you Mara curses and you and also you get
[13:58] in the in the scriptures rather like in
[14:01] those of you who are familiar with um
[14:03] old British theater the kind of music
[14:05] hall villain or the with a curly
[14:07] mustache curses foiled again you know
[14:11] the kind of cheesy villain. Um and that
[14:14] does come across in the parley. It's
[14:16] like you do get a lot of curses foiled
[14:18] again um in the Mara's speeches and
[14:22] responses because he completely uh fails
[14:25] to ever uh trick the Buddha
[14:28] or indeed any of the Buddha's disciples.
[14:33] So there's that uh that that suta is
[14:36] there in the Mara connected discourses
[14:38] about Mara. And then another well-known
[14:41] encounter or of significant encounter is
[14:44] where uh the Buddha has gone up to the
[14:46] Brahma realm uh to to visit this Brahma
[14:49] god who used to be a teacher of his in a
[14:51] former life. Again, those people who
[14:54] don't like the idea of of different
[14:55] realms of beings and heavens and hells
[14:57] and such like Buddhism is not about all
[15:00] that stuff, but it's all there
[15:02] [laughter]
[15:02] in the scriptures. I once did a little
[15:05] statistical analysis of the um the
[15:08] majimika the middle-length discourses
[15:10] because I was teaching I was living and
[15:12] teaching in America and people often
[15:14] very sort of rational materialist
[15:17] audience there and uh didn't like the
[15:20] idea of different realms of beings
[15:21] different he heavens and hells invisible
[15:24] deities and demons and whatnot and so
[15:27] and uh it's all just interpolated later
[15:29] on all just wedged in afterwards it's
[15:32] not anything that the Buddha really head
[15:33] or it's not really there is it and I
[15:36] thought well people keep saying that
[15:37] let's let's do some statistics and so I
[15:40] went through the uh majikaya
[15:43] and in in pretty much exactly 33% of the
[15:47] the sutas of the majikaya you have some
[15:51] reference to past lives future lives
[15:53] different realms of existence that's not
[15:55] an editing job I do a lot of editing I
[15:59] can I can to some degree I can recognize
[16:01] what's been put into a text and has been
[16:03] taken out to some degree. Um, and so
[16:07] that that degree of pervasiveness of
[16:10] kind of being so widely spread in so
[16:13] many different ways and so consistently,
[16:16] you know, all the all the presences of
[16:18] those things, they match each other,
[16:19] they fit together. So to me, it says,
[16:21] yeah, that's that's part of the
[16:23] original. That's not just editing
[16:25] editors wedging stuff in later on for
[16:28] their own purposes. maybe to some degree
[16:30] but certainly it's too consistent it's
[16:33] too pervasive too thorough to not be
[16:35] there anyway so [clears throat] in this
[16:37] story this in the middle length
[16:39] discourses sutra number 49 called the
[16:42] invitation of a Brahma the Buddha picks
[16:45] up uh through the ether uh the this
[16:49] conceited thought in the mind of this
[16:50] Brahma god who used to be his teacher in
[16:52] a previous lifetime and the Brahma god
[16:54] is called baka b aka baka and the Buddha
[16:59] realizes oh this brah this this good
[17:01] Brahma believes that he is the creator
[17:03] of the universe he thinks he's the
[17:05] supreme deity like the the the the
[17:09] creator god and he's the supreme of all
[17:12] beings in the universe o dear so as a
[17:15] favor he he beams up to the brahma world
[17:17] and goes to visit his former teacher
[17:20] Baka and then when when he encounters
[17:22] him then uh the the retinue um uh the
[17:28] The Brahma, the lesser Brahma deities
[17:32] who are surrounding the Brahma Godbaka,
[17:34] you know, um uh all encourage this
[17:37] visitor to be very respectful and to you
[17:39] know to be u say very grateful if he has
[17:42] the opportunity to meet the almighty one
[17:44] and um
[17:46] and so the when they have this brief
[17:49] version is when they have this encounter
[17:51] um the Buddha says you well you think
[17:53] that you're the you're the master of the
[17:56] universe. You think that you're the the
[17:57] highest of all deities, but there are 17
[18:00] Brahma realms above you that you don't
[18:02] even know about. And he said, "Oh,
[18:03] rubbish." You know, you're not you're
[18:04] not a you're not even in the highest of
[18:06] the Brahma realms. You're kind sort of a
[18:09] a third story Brahma realm. You're not
[18:11] it's not even a particular um
[18:13] significantly lofty realm that you're
[18:16] you're in in you're the most powerful
[18:18] being in. And this is rejected by Baka
[18:22] and says, "You don't you don't know what
[18:23] you're talking about in appropriate
[18:25] language.
[18:26] And then the Buddha says, "Well, no, I I
[18:29] do know what I'm I do know what I'm
[18:30] talking about, and I'm coming here to to
[18:32] help you." And then uh Baka says, "Well,
[18:35] to prove to you how powerful I am, I
[18:37] will vanish from your view, and you
[18:39] won't be able to see me, and I, you
[18:41] know, so I'll show that I'm uh more
[18:43] spiritually potent uh and and high and
[18:46] and mighty than you are, but he can't
[18:49] vanish and disappear from the Buddha's
[18:50] view." And the Buddha says, "Well, um,
[18:53] in turn, I I'll show you that I can
[18:55] vanish from you and you won't be able to
[18:57] see me." And and Baka says, "Rubbish,
[18:58] nonsense, impossible." And then Buddha
[19:01] disappears and and then speaks and says,
[19:03] "See, Brahma, you can't see me, but I
[19:06] I'm I have vanished from your view,
[19:09] haven't I?" And he spoke in a voice that
[19:11] the entire assembly of Brahma deities
[19:13] could hear. So um he um uh embarrassed
[19:18] his former teacher and was in that
[19:21] effort of trying to to help this this
[19:25] being and then at that point this is
[19:27] where Mara comes in. Then Mara enters
[19:30] the mind of one of the Brahma gods in
[19:32] the retinue and and sort of takes the
[19:34] the Buddha aside and says, "Don't say
[19:36] this. Don't this is really bad karma
[19:38] you're creating. You know, you're you're
[19:40] embarrassing the almighty one. You know,
[19:42] this you're you're putting him to shame
[19:44] and this is terrible. This is awful
[19:45] karma. You you shouldn't be doing this.
[19:47] It's much better for you to to, you
[19:49] know, to to not be doing this. And and
[19:51] besides you know this this kind of
[19:53] spiritual path that you're talking about
[19:55] you said that um if the saying to the
[19:57] Brahma as he had done look you know
[20:00] you're you're not the level of full
[20:01] enlightenment but if you follow my path
[20:03] the eight-fold path then you can arrive
[20:06] at that that full consumation of of
[20:08] spiritual life. And this uh assistant
[20:11] Brahma says you shouldn't say that.
[20:13] That's that's really bad. That's really
[20:14] bad karma. And this is a paraphrase kind
[20:18] of rough version of the story. And uh
[20:21] and then and besides, you know, you
[20:23] should you shouldn't be teaching this
[20:24] path at all. You know, it's really it's
[20:27] really delusory. It puts people off and
[20:29] and it's far better for you to stop
[20:31] teaching. You know, remain quiet. Just
[20:33] enjoy your your peaceful spiritual life.
[20:35] And and don't be putting this thing
[20:37] about the eight-fold path out into the
[20:39] world. That's that's that's really off.
[20:40] That's really bad karma. You you
[20:42] shouldn't be doing that. And the Buddha
[20:43] says, "Yeah, I know you, Mara."
[20:46] [laughter]
[20:47] And that uh that's don't think I don't
[20:50] know you, I know you.
[20:52] And that uh that that kind of um
[20:58] exchange, you know, it's right there in
[20:59] the scriptures. And again, sort of
[21:01] tatyumpy, one can reject that and say,
[21:03] well, it's all just symbolic, isn't it?
[21:05] But the stories are there in the
[21:07] scriptures. And I think it's important
[21:08] to to be respectful of what has come
[21:12] down over 26 centuries to us. So that in
[21:16] that kind of an encounter
[21:19] uh sometimes you have Mara as a sort of
[21:21] physical apparent seemingly physical
[21:23] figure having a sort of face-to-face
[21:25] dialogue. Sometimes it's just a voice in
[21:27] the mind like with uh um uh that uh uh
[21:32] the the Buddha sitting up in the
[21:35] Himalayas. It's a uh seemingly just a a
[21:38] a voice in his mind. But um the the
[21:42] words that uh in the pari are for I know
[21:45] you mara uh are just in case you're
[21:48] interested you can remember this uh I
[21:51] know is janami co tahang papima so
[21:57] papima is evil one that's one of the
[22:00] common names for mara is papima papa is
[22:03] evil so papima is the evil one so um uh
[22:07] so the most common expression is is
[22:09] jaami uh called tahang papa I know you
[22:13] evil one or I know you Mara. So,
[22:18] so as I was saying um where and where
[22:22] you you hear Mara being talked about in
[22:24] the dhamma talks in the forest tradition
[22:26] and in other places is the in that role
[22:31] of the voices in the mind saying oh well
[22:33] just another one just one more or like
[22:37] um I've had enough you I'm not going to
[22:39] stand for this I'm out of here uh this
[22:42] this is this is an intolerable um and
[22:46] the the mind that goes into different
[22:49] forms of of reaction, aversion. So based
[22:52] and uh brings messages into the mind
[22:56] based on laziness, delusion, greed,
[22:59] restlessness and so on and so forth. And
[23:01] so um in the dhamma talks of lump sum
[23:05] and lucha and others then often in a
[23:08] kind of colloquial way then uh uh they
[23:11] will use expressions or oh then the the
[23:13] maras come along and say yeah oh this
[23:15] meditation is a waste of time I'm going
[23:17] to I'm going to go and make a cup of tea
[23:19] this is this is pointless I'm not
[23:20] getting anywhere you know I'll just go
[23:22] put my feet up. Um and so
[23:26] [clears throat] that kind of um
[23:28] representation normally rather than than
[23:31] talking about a visitation from a a kind
[23:33] of satanic figure, it's this sort of the
[23:35] voices in the mind. And I would say that
[23:38] when we reflect upon Mara and uh and the
[23:41] um
[23:43] uh that role of that that presence in in
[23:46] the Buddhist mythology
[23:48] um then that on a practical level for
[23:52] those of us who are interested in in
[23:54] liberation of the heart and
[23:56] enlightenment this is where it's most
[23:58] significant and also applicable whether
[24:00] you happen to find the mythology and uh
[24:03] different realms of beings meaningful
[24:05] and realistic. or you or you don't.
[24:07] Whether you see it's all psychological.
[24:08] It's all just symbolic. It works either
[24:11] way because that recognition of those
[24:14] voices like saying, "Oh, I I'm not
[24:16] getting anywhere. I might as well just
[24:17] put the kettle on." That to to be able
[24:20] to turn to that voice and say, "I know
[24:22] you, Mara." That I made the resolution
[24:26] to sit here for 45 minutes and we're
[24:28] only at minute 15. So, I know you, Mara.
[24:33] And so that uh I would suggest is where
[24:38] this is useful. It's not just sort of an
[24:40] afternoon talk about Buddhist mythology
[24:42] but where we are able to recognize those
[24:45] forces as they arise within us.
[24:49] So within uh Buddhist tradition again
[24:51] there's different versions you you find
[24:53] different um kind of recentensions of
[24:55] the the mythology and tales. But and I
[24:58] also um uh full full disclosure I've
[25:02] written uh several books with uh uh I've
[25:06] been writing a series of novels called
[25:08] Mara and the Mongala. So I'm kind of
[25:10] acquainted with the territory quite well
[25:12] I would say
[25:14] uh more than many people in the west in
[25:16] the Buddhist field have looked into this
[25:19] and been using it. And so uh in some
[25:23] versions of the mythology there are five
[25:25] maras not just one. So five maras and
[25:29] the five maras are associated with each
[25:32] of the five kundas. So the um the five
[25:36] kundas form material form or the body um
[25:40] uh is rupa material form vana sensation
[25:45] or feeling is the second of the five
[25:47] kundas. And these are the aspects of the
[25:50] the one of the ways that the Buddha
[25:51] described the aspects of body and mind
[25:53] the physical and mental world. So rupa
[25:56] vana feeling is the second one. Uh third
[25:59] one is sya perception. And so uh when we
[26:03] we talk about perception in Buddhist
[26:05] psychology. So feeling is really just
[26:08] sensation. So pleasant feeling, painful
[26:10] feeling, neutral feeling. Wayan doesn't
[26:12] really include emotions. It's not your
[26:15] emotions about things but it's like does
[26:17] it hurt? Is it is it comfortable? Is it
[26:18] pleasant? Is it neutral? That's what
[26:20] vdana is in that territory. SA is the
[26:24] the act of perceiving. So seeing,
[26:27] hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and
[26:29] also to some degree uh perceiving
[26:32] thoughts but as sense objects. So it's
[26:35] the perceiving of an object and the
[26:37] categorizing of an object um before the
[26:40] mind starts thinking about it. So uh the
[26:44] light bouncing off this carpet reaches
[26:46] my eye and I perceive that color then
[26:50] the thinking mind says that's blue. So
[26:53] that the perception is there before the
[26:55] languaging around it. So if that and
[26:57] that makes sense neurologically neurosys
[27:00] neurohysiologically as well. So there's
[27:02] a perceiving of the the sensory object
[27:05] before the mind names it or tells any
[27:08] story. I like that blue or I don't like
[27:09] that blue. So the sya is that uh that
[27:14] perceiving of a sense object. Then the
[27:17] next one sankara mental formations is a
[27:20] very big category. That's where emotions
[27:21] come in and thinking and memory and
[27:24] imagination
[27:26] um
[27:28] uh volition intentions decision making
[27:31] your socara is a huge huge uh range of
[27:35] of things that are contained in that
[27:37] package. So that's the world of of
[27:39] thinking and knowledge, information,
[27:42] opinion, belief, memory, imagination,
[27:45] emotion. [laughter]
[27:46] It's kind of exhausting just to describe
[27:48] it. So that's all in Sankara. That's the
[27:50] fourth of the five kundas. And the fifth
[27:52] one is vinana, which is discriminative
[27:56] consciousness. So that's the the uh and
[27:59] the uh so the the building blocks of
[28:02] experience are are what are those say
[28:06] those sparks of vignano or
[28:08] consciousness. So that you can say
[28:10] that's um a the the capacity of the mind
[28:14] to distinguish one thing from another.
[28:17] So the cognition of different things the
[28:19] basic ability of the mind to cognize
[28:23] that make sense. So the um uh the word
[28:26] vinñana vyana means knowing or
[28:28] knowledge. Vit means separate or apart.
[28:31] So vitana is knowing one thing from
[28:33] another discriminating this from that.
[28:36] Okay. So the five maras
[28:39] um have all got uh different names. So
[28:42] machu mara machu uh is is death. So the
[28:49] one associated with rupacanda with
[28:52] material form that's mara as in physical
[28:55] death. So the word mara means death. So
[28:58] that first aspect of mara is death in
[29:01] our lives. The presence of the the the
[29:04] death of this body the death of of uh
[29:08] all other beings in our families. Just
[29:10] like today being a Sunday, many many
[29:13] many dedications read out of the meal
[29:15] time mostly for people who passed away.
[29:18] So, [clears throat] and every one of
[29:20] these bodies, and this might uh I should
[29:23] it shouldn't need a spoiler alert,
[29:26] but be ready.
[29:28] Every single one of these bodies
[29:30] gathered here in this sila is going to
[29:32] die one day. There's going to be an
[29:34] outreath and no inbreath.
[29:37] That's not news.
[29:40] It shouldn't be news. It might be like,
[29:42] "Oh, no, wait a minute. Hang on." No.
[29:44] Can we negotiate?
[29:48] Every single one of these bodies, which
[29:49] which have all been born,
[29:52] don't think anyone would argue with
[29:53] that. They are all going to have an
[29:55] outreath one day and no inb breath.
[29:57] These bodies, every single one without
[29:59] exception is going to die. There's a
[30:02] 100% failure rate for human bodies,
[30:06] I would say. I mean, I know some
[30:07] religious religious people would argue
[30:10] that from different angles, but uh I
[30:14] would say
[30:16] I kind I can appreciate statistics. I
[30:18] would say there's a 100% failure rate
[30:20] for the human form. They all die. We all
[30:23] die. That's a fact. So, machara is that
[30:26] fact of physical death. So, um
[30:29] [clears throat]
[30:30] and that is something that we
[30:32] contemplate in our reflections. one of
[30:35] the the Buddha's key teachings called
[30:37] the five subjects for frequent
[30:38] recollection that he recommended u both
[30:41] for the lay community as well as for the
[30:42] monastics you to recollect every day is
[30:45] I'm of the nature to age I'm of the
[30:47] nature to sicken I'm of the nature to
[30:49] die all than is mine beloved and
[30:51] pleasing will become otherwise will
[30:53] become separated from me uh uh I am the
[30:57] owner of my karma heir to my karma born
[30:58] of my karma related to my karma abides
[31:01] supported by my karma whatever karma I
[31:02] shall do for good or for will of that I
[31:05] will be the heir.
[31:07] So um people often think well did the
[31:10] Buddha want to make us depressed? Yeah,
[31:13] I don't want to think about that. But he
[31:15] was extraordinarily compassionate. So
[31:18] what he's doing is with that is the the
[31:23] uh the fact of physical death is
[31:26] something that we tend to reject as
[31:28] human beings. we push it away or we
[31:30] think that something's gone wrong or
[31:32] it's unfair or it shouldn't be
[31:33] happening. Now, um I'm sure there's lots
[31:36] of doctors in the room and it's not that
[31:38] we don't take care of our bodies or and
[31:40] take our medicines when they're when
[31:42] appropriate, but [clears throat]
[31:45] every doctor who's ever lived um uh
[31:49] apart from the ones who are still alive,
[31:50] they have died too. as Limpucha would
[31:53] say is even the doctors who are trying
[31:55] to to cure him from his illnesses you
[31:57] know they're going to die too. So um
[32:00] with uh the aspect of of Mara and
[32:03] meeting Mara and saying I know you with
[32:06] respect to physical death is both that
[32:09] physical death is going to happen with
[32:12] with with um a a kind of brutal
[32:17] bluntness. Nature doesn't take much
[32:20] negotiation.
[32:22] It happens whether you like it or not
[32:24] with the best doctors in the world. It
[32:25] keeps happening and it will continue to
[32:27] happen. But in terms of the meditation
[32:30] and this reflection, this is uh and the
[32:34] Buddha's teaching to to bring those
[32:36] those things to mind. I'm of the nature
[32:38] of age. I'm of the nature to sick and
[32:40] I'm of the nature to die. All that is
[32:42] mine beloved and pleasing will become
[32:44] otherwise will become separated from me.
[32:47] That is counteracting maras. The maras
[32:50] that say well we can negotiate. Well not
[32:52] you but but you don't need to think
[32:54] about that. uh and uh that that force in
[32:58] the mind the kind of forgettery along
[33:02] with our memory that that pushes that
[33:04] fact of physical death away it makes it
[33:07] sort of it happens to other people and
[33:09] it's not here it's over there and so the
[33:13] Buddha's great kindness is to say no
[33:15] look read the small print we're all in
[33:17] this so let that be understood let that
[33:19] be appreciated and let that guide how
[33:22] you live how you work how you function
[33:23] in relationship to other people.
[33:27] So, um again I I I might be making
[33:30] generalizations or sweeping statements
[33:33] um but it is extraordinarily common just
[33:35] the way that we speak. And so isn't it
[33:38] isn't it the case that people say if
[33:41] something ever happens to me. That's
[33:46] four layers of padding. If, not if,
[33:50] when,
[33:52] not something dying,
[33:55] not ever, but sometime within the next
[33:59] hundred years, quite likely,
[34:02] you know, happens.
[34:04] Uh, well, it's not exactly a happening.
[34:07] It's a certainty. But isn't that the way
[34:09] we talk? If something ever happens to
[34:11] me, I want you to be taken care of.
[34:13] Like, we don't say, "When I die, it's
[34:15] too blunt. is too too harsh for many
[34:17] people. So we put we we uh use this kind
[34:21] of social padding and the Buddha is
[34:24] saying well yes we can do that but it's
[34:27] more helpful more beneficial and
[34:29] prepares us more completely um when
[34:32] somebody dies and a person is
[34:35] heartbroken um if they haven't as it
[34:37] were done their homework then it feels
[34:40] like something terrible has gone wrong
[34:41] and you and I'm not trying to be brutal
[34:43] or insensitive but when you say well
[34:46] someone's someone's father's just passed
[34:47] play and they say, "Well, how old is he?
[34:49] He's 98." You go,
[34:53] "Well,
[34:55] yes, it's painful, but it's can't be
[34:57] that much of a surprise. At the age of
[35:00] 98, that's you're definitely into the
[35:03] the last percentiles of the average, you
[35:06] know, but it can be still held in. I'm
[35:08] not trying to make fun of anyone or or
[35:10] shame anyone, but it can genuinely be
[35:12] held. But but I just wasn't ready for
[35:15] it." thought well this is what the
[35:17] Buddha's great kindness is say to not be
[35:21] buying into that that buffering and
[35:23] padding and putting that fact of of
[35:26] death you know over in the distance but
[35:28] uh letting it be known that this is this
[35:31] is the way things are and mysteriously
[35:33] that helps us to be more at ease that
[35:35] helps us to be able to live more
[35:38] effectively and in a in a balanced way
[35:41] so but with with debt with death and I
[35:44] would say this comes under the machara
[35:46] category. It's in [clears throat]
[35:49] that when when I when you talk about
[35:51] this, it's also I think within the west
[35:53] people are often so dissociated with
[35:56] their body or not identify with their
[35:58] body apart from how it looks
[36:01] that the body is treated as this sort of
[36:03] thing you don't pay much attention to.
[36:05] And we live in our minds. We live in our
[36:07] social world. We live in our
[36:09] relationships. Uh our reputation, our
[36:12] our friends, our qualifications, where
[36:14] we live, our address, how much money
[36:16] we've got, uh how many years we have as
[36:18] a monk. You know, we we we claim these
[36:21] kind of identities and that becomes more
[36:24] important. Our reputation, our status,
[36:27] our number of followers on Facebook or
[36:30] WhatsApp or whatever. um that becomes
[36:32] more important and more re more who I am
[36:35] than the body. And so uh ego death can
[36:39] be far more terrifying and challenging.
[36:42] Being fired from your job, uh having a
[36:44] relationship break up, you losing your
[36:48] losing your uh um the respect that
[36:51] people have for you, that uh things
[36:54] falling apart, launching some some
[36:56] project and it and it collapsing. Um
[36:58] putting your name on something and it
[37:00] doesn't work. it's it's failed or it's
[37:01] criticized. That can be far more painful
[37:05] and challenging and difficult than the
[37:07] idea well I know my body's going to die
[37:08] one day but you know that sort of the
[37:12] concept of that is put off. We're not
[37:13] really attuned to our body and we live
[37:15] more in our reputation our mental
[37:18] construct of our life and so ego death
[37:21] can be far more frightening than
[37:24] physical death. And uh it's it's quite a
[37:26] long time ago now. But when I talk about
[37:27] this, I often quote this uh famous
[37:30] study. I think it was a Harvard
[37:32] University psychology department
[37:34] probably about 25 years ago now, if not
[37:36] more, maybe 30 years. But they did a a
[37:39] quite an extensive survey on fear, what
[37:42] people were afraid of. Uh about six or
[37:44] seven thousand subjects were interviewed
[37:47] and they filled in these questionnaires.
[37:49] And when they got all the questionnaires
[37:50] back and they analyzed the the numbers,
[37:52] what they found was that um sort of num
[37:55] of the top 10 things people were afraid
[37:57] of, uh so number 10 was having your home
[38:00] burgled and your and your people
[38:03] stealing your possessions. And yeah,
[38:06] number eight was being physically
[38:07] attacked and and injured.
[38:10] So number number five was um having a a
[38:15] member of your your family brutally
[38:17] killed and uh and you dying in a very
[38:19] very painful way. Yeah. Number uh number
[38:23] three on the list was your country being
[38:25] invaded and your mass uh the uh the
[38:29] country being uh in a state of war and
[38:32] destruction being all around you. Uh
[38:34] number two on the list was nuclear war
[38:36] and destruction of life on the planet.
[38:39] Number one on the list, public speaking.
[38:44] People were more afraid of dying on
[38:48] stage than the destruction of life on
[38:50] Earth.
[38:52] And I don't I I I understand that's not
[38:55] just um urban legend, but I I understand
[38:58] that's a that was a genuine um
[39:01] university study, but and and my
[39:03] experience of talking with people for
[39:04] the last 40 plus years and and uh being
[39:08] in the Buddhist meditation realm, it's
[39:10] like, yep, dying on stage, being a
[39:13] social failure is far more threatening
[39:17] and awful than you know the the collapse
[39:20] of the ecosystem, global glob warming
[39:22] the the North Atlant the the the
[39:24] Atlantic heat pump as they call it
[39:26] failing and the the Gulf Stream
[39:28] collapsing and the the ice caps melting
[39:30] and they Yeah. Yeah. But you know I've
[39:32] got to do a presentation
[39:35] that's serious.
[39:37] Again I'm I'm kind of making fun of it
[39:39] but but it uh I feel that that says you
[39:43] know ego death um is far more
[39:46] threatening and frightening. And so
[39:47] again the the Buddha's um encouragement
[39:51] all that is mine beloved and pleasing
[39:54] will become otherwise will become
[39:56] separated from me. So to the ego that's
[39:59] horrible that's like a disaster but why
[40:02] would he ask us to encourage us to to
[40:04] think about that say because that's how
[40:07] how nature works. So get ready prepare
[40:10] your prepare your jitter prepare your
[40:11] heart and look at that feeling of
[40:13] ownership. What do you think you've got?
[40:17] uh your faculties, your ability to
[40:18] think, to move, to hear, to see. We are
[40:21] temporarily able-bodied, those of us who
[40:24] are able-bodied to some degree, but this
[40:26] is a a temporary condition. The eyes go,
[40:29] the ears go, the mobility goes, our uh
[40:34] our agency as a decision, a person who
[40:37] can make competent decisions that goes,
[40:41] not everybody, not a young age often,
[40:44] but in the aging process. So you think
[40:47] this is really depressing dumb talk but
[40:51] why why would the the great
[40:53] compassionate Buddha say think about
[40:55] this look at this explore this and it's
[40:57] going against the that the the the kind
[41:01] of delus the force of delusion the mara
[41:04] of um that that buffers against ego
[41:08] death and said well what uh I if I
[41:10] recognize that my eyes aren't going to
[41:12] work forever
[41:14] then I can really appreciate seeing
[41:16] today. Yeah. I was sitting here right in
[41:18] this spot when I had a temporary
[41:20] eskeemic attack about 18 months ago like
[41:23] a mini stroke. I was uh trying to give a
[41:27] dummy reading [laughter]
[41:29] and I I could hardly read. I had lost my
[41:31] ability to read. I couldn't my my brain
[41:34] couldn't couldn't configure the letters
[41:37] on the page into words without a kind of
[41:40] a very forceful act of will. And it
[41:42] faded out after an hour and a half. But
[41:44] it was a very interesting experience.
[41:46] And when it first arrived, when I was
[41:48] preparing the reading that evening, this
[41:50] was at the end of January 2025,
[41:53] the and I I was staring at a word.
[41:56] Ironically, the word I was looking at
[41:57] was conundrum.
[42:01] And I I could see the black marks on the
[42:04] page. I knew the these are letters. What
[42:07] sound do those letters make?
[42:11] What what do they what do those shapes
[42:13] together mean?
[42:16] Nothing. It went. So I had the thought,
[42:19] well, maybe that's the end of my karma
[42:20] with the written word. Interesting.
[42:23] [laughter] And I got to give a reading
[42:25] in about 3/4 of an hour.
[42:28] And so I did give a preface when I sat
[42:30] down in this spot to give the reading. I
[42:31] said, um, something's gone weird with my
[42:34] eyes. I'm not sure how this reading is
[42:35] going to go today. I think it's even
[42:38] recorded and filmed. So that you can go
[42:39] on YouTube and find it if you if you
[42:41] look anyway. So machara death so ego
[42:47] death as much as physical death and the
[42:49] Buddha's encouragement to to say I know
[42:51] you Mara I know and uh when there are
[42:54] those attachments or presumptions around
[42:56] agency what I can do I can my who I am
[43:00] in the world said well it's temporary
[43:02] and one day it'll go. Is that a loss? It
[43:06] was never yours in the first place. Oh,
[43:09] that redraws the picture
[43:12] I would say. So, second one.
[43:15] Um, so I would say that so the first one
[43:18] uh is on death. The second one is called
[43:21] killesara associated with feeling vdana.
[43:25] And so that is a lot to do with uh
[43:29] within the Buddhist teaching the the
[43:31] link between feeling and craving. So um
[43:36] in those of you who are familiar with
[43:37] dependent origination that that the
[43:40] 12step uh process of how the when the
[43:42] mind is not fully awake it ends up
[43:45] getting uh sunk in in dissatisfaction
[43:49] duka the the the kind of the weakest
[43:52] link in that chain of cause of causation
[43:56] of uh dependent origination is the link
[43:59] I won't go into that in detail I haven't
[44:00] got time but the link between feeling
[44:03] and craving So we can have the feeling I
[44:05] like this is delicious.
[44:08] But then craving is I got to have some
[44:11] more.
[44:13] But the feeling of this is delicious is
[44:16] just a feeling. This is awful. This is
[44:18] really painful. Uh is is a painful
[44:21] feeling. Craving is I got to get away
[44:23] from this. I can't stand this. I can't
[44:24] bear this. I don't deserve this. So to
[44:28] bring the attention to the realm of
[44:30] feeling and to get to know feeling of I
[44:32] like I don't like and that to be able to
[44:36] train the mind to use the meditation.
[44:38] [clears throat] Uh and when Mara says oh
[44:41] yeah well just one more just just one
[44:44] more. Well that's interesting. I wonder
[44:47] if this is mara I would say that's those
[44:51] mara based thoughts of oh I'll just take
[44:53] a quick look I I I'll just I won't
[44:56] bother I can't be bothered with that one
[44:58] you know I'll just I don't I don't need
[44:59] to bother with that that to uh to turn
[45:05] to that say I know you Mara
[45:08] it won't be just one more that oh I
[45:10] wonder if you know what that led to the
[45:12] last five times 10 times 150 times the
[45:16] I'll I'll I'll just uh I'll just have
[45:18] one more. I'll just take a look. And I
[45:20] wonder if you know where that goes. Or
[45:22] like or when you said, "Oh, I can't be
[45:24] bothered with then uh how are other
[45:28] people who were expecting you to bother
[45:31] or you had agreed to the things you'd
[45:33] agreed to do and people were relying on
[45:35] that you didn't want to be bothered with
[45:37] where that went." So that I would say is
[45:41] a key part of our meditation training is
[45:44] and and all of us I would say are
[45:46] greatly benefited by learning that skill
[45:49] to bring mindfulness and wisdom to that
[45:52] that section of the of the causal chain
[45:56] to say this is this is liking it feels
[45:59] like this this is the yes delicious this
[46:03] is great but doesn't mean I have to have
[46:06] another one doesn't mean I have to buy
[46:08] it doesn't mean I have to to chase after
[46:10] this. It's delicious. Yes. Beautiful.
[46:13] Yes.
[46:15] Greatly appreciated. Yes. But there's no
[46:17] therefore. And similarly, this is awful.
[46:20] This is painful. Uh this really hurts.
[46:23] Or this is really boring. Like the you
[46:26] know the third of the daughters of Mara
[46:28] was arity boredom. This is really
[46:30] boring. I can't be bothered with this. I
[46:33] got to I can't stand this. To say well
[46:36] why is what makes this boring?
[46:38] Boredom, I would suggest, relies on the
[46:41] self. There has to be a mei here to be
[46:43] bored. Otherwise, it's just this moment
[46:46] has this particular tone, this
[46:48] particular favor. So that second of the
[46:51] maras, killesa mara, killesa means
[46:54] defilement, I would say is related to
[46:56] feeling and feeling and craving. The
[46:59] third one, kandara, kanda is the the
[47:03] five groups of the body and mind. uh on
[47:06] reflection I'd say that's mostly to do
[47:09] with the identification with the body
[47:11] and the personality. So what we call
[47:13] self view sakayaditti so that I am the
[47:16] body I am the personality. So not the
[47:18] body in terms of it going to die one day
[47:19] or the health of the body but just this
[47:21] is me. I'm a man or I am 70 years old or
[47:24] I I am ao or lump amo excuse me. I I
[47:28] forget as well as everybody else.
[47:31] So this is who I am. I'm British. I was
[47:34] born in Kent. Um this this is uh my who
[47:37] I am. I've been a Buddhist monk for 48
[47:40] years. And so our story, our
[47:43] personality, our occupation, uh where
[47:45] you live, your address, that's all in
[47:47] the I would say the kandamara that says
[47:50] this is real. Now I I am a man. I am a
[47:52] woman. [snorts] I I am gender neutral. I
[47:55] am uh I am old. I am young. I am a
[47:59] success. I'm a failure. I am somewhere
[48:00] in the I'm always somewhere in the
[48:02] middle. I'm incredibly mediocre.
[48:04] Yeah, that's what I am. So all the I ams
[48:08] around the body, the personality, all
[48:11] those selves, I say that's the kandamara
[48:14] and the the mara influence is this is
[48:16] real. I really am a monk. Terravada
[48:19] Buddhism is an absolute reality. You
[48:21] know, I really am a doctor. I really am
[48:23] a mother. I really am a father. I I
[48:26] really am I I really am.
[48:29] Is that so? And again the Buddha's
[48:32] teachings help us to explore that and
[48:34] say well and the example I usually give
[48:36] is so I say okay I am I am Lo Amoro uh
[48:41] I'm 70 years old so if I I've been
[48:44] breathing out so I breathe out carbon
[48:45] dioxide we have all been in this room
[48:48] we've got a very good ventilation system
[48:50] taking the carbon dioxide out but is
[48:53] that carbon dioxide that I breathe out
[48:55] is that 70 years old?
[48:59] Is it British?
[49:01] Is it terraoden? Is it male?
[49:05] Ridiculous. Doesn't make sense, does it?
[49:07] The oxygen I'm breathing in. So, this is
[49:09] we're in Harfordshire. Used to be
[49:11] Bedfordshire from the They changed the
[49:12] county boundaries. Now, we're in
[49:14] Harfordshire. So, uh this air belongs to
[49:17] Harford.
[49:20] Now, it's a Terradan monk.
[49:23] It's not It's not Haracher, it's monk.
[49:28] Where did What changed? Where did it
[49:29] change? Yeah, it can go on endlessly. So
[49:33] that the the mara of to be known in that
[49:37] respect is
[49:40] uh our personality, our body, our our
[49:44] occupation, all those selves and
[49:47] selfings they can only be relatively
[49:50] true. They can't be absolutely true.
[49:55] We can have a discussion
[49:57] but uh they there can be very strongly
[50:01] conditioned things like say well oxygen
[50:03] is oxygen a whether it's inside or
[50:05] outside well is it even you know there
[50:09] probably a few physicists here even the
[50:11] electrons and the protons the neutrons
[50:14] that make up the oxygen they decay
[50:16] eventually
[50:18] they don't hold together forever
[50:21] forever is a long long long long long
[50:23] long long long long long time. So uh
[50:27] that turning to those those fixed
[50:30] identities you know I am a mother I am
[50:32] English I am Thai I'm Sri Lankan I am
[50:34] old I'm young I'm healthy I'm sick say
[50:37] is that so is that the whole story is
[50:40] that a real thing so then we come to
[50:43] sankara the and the fourth mara is
[50:46] abisankara mara abi sankara so abi means
[50:50] means um uh uh great or much or superior
[50:55] Ior or comprehensive abi uh the higher.
[50:59] So it's like the big sankara. And so uh
[51:05] even if we're not so identified with our
[51:07] our body and our personality and our our
[51:09] lif style or our address, we really
[51:12] identify with our choices, our emotions,
[51:16] uh our history, our our moods. It gets,
[51:19] you know, our intentions, our decisions.
[51:22] And the laws of most countries revolve
[51:24] around the decisions that you have made.
[51:26] You I have made you you you did that.
[51:28] You should be rewarded. You should be
[51:31] punished. Uh so decision- making
[51:34] intention that really seems like a self
[51:37] really who we are. But the that saying I
[51:40] know you Mara is to turn to those moods,
[51:43] those decisions, those choices that
[51:46] we've made, those things that are
[51:48] seeming to be really solid, absolute and
[51:50] real and say is that so is that
[51:53] genuinely a permanent solid thing?
[51:55] What's really there? How much of our
[51:57] life do we spend burning energy uh
[52:01] around uh our rightness, our opinions?
[52:05] We have a thought. So it's about
[52:08] believing in information.
[52:10] Uh it's all the knowing about and this
[52:13] is where intelligence and having a a big
[52:16] brain becomes an obstacle because this
[52:19] is where Mara has got a not just a not
[52:22] just a good lawyer but a whole team of
[52:24] expert lawyers that can make a case for
[52:26] anything. You I used to belong to the
[52:29] debating society in the school I went to
[52:31] and uh you you be given a subject and
[52:33] you can either be chosen to to support
[52:35] it or oppose it. And you had to come up
[52:37] with an argument in the debate to either
[52:40] support or oppose it just like that. And
[52:42] you can you find you can make a case
[52:44] something that you don't really like the
[52:45] idea of. You said no you got to oppose
[52:47] it and then you can do it. And with a
[52:50] team of lawyers the kind of Mara you
[52:52] know legal company
[52:54] we can make a case we can our judgments
[52:56] can be seen absolutely flawless
[52:58] completely comprehensive seamlessly
[53:00] correct and we can justify it with all
[53:02] sorts of quotations.
[53:05] So abiankara mara this is trickiest the
[53:08] realm of the of the thinker
[53:11] and so when we talk in Buddhism about
[53:14] knowing and the importance of knowing
[53:17] and listening to lumpmetus dharma talks
[53:20] in particular he talks a lot about
[53:22] knowing but it's really important to to
[53:25] make the distinction between knowing uh
[53:28] as in the quality of awareness itself
[53:31] which is uh formless and non
[53:34] nonconceptual, non-verbal and knowing
[53:37] about completely different things. So
[53:40] knowing about is having information. So
[53:42] and I just was reading a quotation from
[53:44] long a you can be an expert in Buddhism.
[53:47] You can know all about Buddhism and be
[53:49] completely ignorant at the same time.
[53:52] So vija is awareness or that awakened
[53:56] knowing awakened awareness. Avija is
[53:58] ignorance. Not knowing, not being awake,
[54:00] not being aware. So if we are very
[54:02] knowledgeable, we're very intelligent
[54:04] and we've got answers for everything.
[54:06] And as I've mentioned a few times in
[54:07] these talks, as a child, uh I wanted to
[54:11] know everything. I wanted to have an
[54:12] answer for everything. I used to read
[54:13] encyclopedias.
[54:15] I was well known in the family sort of
[54:18] leaning up against the the cabinet of
[54:19] the encyclopedia botanica just
[54:22] trying to remember everything learn. So
[54:25] I would always have an answer for
[54:26] everything. I'd be able to know and even
[54:29] if I didn't really know, I'd fake it. So
[54:31] full you know full confession.
[54:35] So Abisankar Trixie very tricky and then
[54:39] the fifth one uh is related to vinana
[54:43] consciousness. This is the even more
[54:46] subtle level of identification. So
[54:49] there's two kinds of identification in
[54:52] Buddhist psychology. The first one or
[54:54] the the coarse one is self view
[54:57] sakayaditi the identification with the
[55:00] body and the personality. The much more
[55:02] refined one which is uh close to the
[55:05] sort of the the realization of
[55:07] enlightenment is the uh what's called
[55:10] asmi mana the conceit of identity. So
[55:14] even if there's no attachment to the
[55:15] body or the personality, I still can
[55:17] really feel there's a me here who's
[55:19] experiencing, a me who is doing the
[55:22] decision-m, a me who's the the one who
[55:24] who's perceiving, a me that is knowing
[55:27] this moment, a me me the meditator, you
[55:30] know, me the dharma practitioner. And so
[55:32] that is a very edgeless kind of
[55:35] identity. So uh and to see through that
[55:39] is it takes a a very high degree of of
[55:42] mindfulness and wisdom penetrative
[55:44] insight. Um so that um that fifth mara
[55:49] is called devaputa mara and rather like
[55:52] in in Christian biblical mythology
[55:54] Lucifer was the brightest of the
[55:56] archangels. Lucifer means the bright one
[55:58] looks is light. Lucifer is the bright
[56:00] one. He was the the brightest of the
[56:02] archangels who then conceived a a
[56:06] judgment about the creator god and uh
[56:08] and then was hurled down from the
[56:10] heavens um having formed that conceit
[56:14] and thrown down into the into
[56:16] everlasting hell. uh it's another story
[56:20] but that uh dva puta is a very close
[56:23] equivalent because dva is like dava is
[56:25] bright puta is the sun so the son of the
[56:27] davas so mara as a great brightness mara
[56:31] as the mind identified with bright
[56:33] wholesome beautiful noble states of mind
[56:37] so in the uh the the list of subtle
[56:41] defilements of meditation called the
[56:43] vipasana upa
[56:46] quite a lot of lists in this this talk
[56:48] today. So [snorts] you have things like
[56:50] as defilements that come from meditation
[56:53] and I would say it's very closely
[56:54] related to this dva put mara is
[56:57] unrelenting mindfulness uh unremitting
[57:00] energy comprehensive knowledge
[57:04] that all sounds good but these are
[57:07] things that can can arise in meditation
[57:09] but can be obstacles because I'm
[57:11] [snorts] awake all the time I understand
[57:13] everything my mind is absolutely blazing
[57:15] bright there's there's no corner of
[57:17] shadow or darkness
[57:18] This is great. And so they are the
[57:21] upillesa they're the refined defilements
[57:24] because there's this subtle I am
[57:26] experiencing enlightenment. You know I
[57:29] am without clinging my mind my mind is
[57:32] filled with brightness. I have no
[57:33] defilements. And in one of the Buddhist
[57:36] teachings in the middle length
[57:38] discourses the called the five and the
[57:40] three he spells that out. He says the
[57:42] mind says yeah I am at peace. I am
[57:44] without clinging. uh I I have realized
[57:47] nibbana and in Bikubod's translation he
[57:50] puts that I in italics and underlined
[57:52] like I am at peace I have I am free of
[57:55] clinging I have realized nibbana the
[57:57] very way the mind frames it indicates
[58:00] the clinging that is still there so this
[58:03] is very trixy territory the that dvauuta
[58:07] mara so that's the attachment to
[58:09] wholesome bright noble beautiful uh
[58:12] states and often in an unconscious way
[58:15] and these are the kind of kind of
[58:17] problems that uh you maybe many of you
[58:20] would like to have. [laughter]
[58:22] I could do with a bit of unrelenting
[58:23] mindfulness
[58:25] but that sense of the the the agent the
[58:29] the the one who is the experiencer that
[58:32] also needs to be ex examined and
[58:34] explored and let go of.
[58:37] I I thought I'd finish with a so that
[58:39] gives you a bit of a the landscape and
[58:41] so in meditation just asking that
[58:44] question who is meditating challenging
[58:46] that mara like I know that when there's
[58:48] that feeling of me the meditator me the
[58:50] experiencer me who's really getting
[58:52] someplace or me who's got a lot of
[58:54] insight me who's a really wise being
[58:56] it's like well who is it that owns that
[58:58] wisdom who is it that owns this moment
[59:01] does what's the eye that's the
[59:04] experiencer turning the the the the the
[59:07] the viewer back onto the subject to
[59:10] explore that. And when it when a
[59:12] question like who is being asked, it
[59:14] doesn't have an answer. It's you ask the
[59:17] question who is asked to puncture that
[59:20] that subtle conceit of of of identity.
[59:24] Maybe the last little story to share
[59:26] about Mara which I think is is also kind
[59:30] of beautiful and to do with
[59:33] even if we we say taking the Lucifer
[59:36] story um where he's in the biblical myth
[59:39] he's cast down from heaven and with no
[59:42] possibility of of ever leaving hell
[59:45] eternal hell and in in um the uh in that
[59:50] um John Milton's Paradise Lost there's
[59:52] this very very poignant moment
[59:55] um where where where Lucifer says um all
[1:00:00] good is lost to me. Therefore, let evil
[1:00:03] be my good. Like I can't do any good. So
[1:00:09] all I can do is evil. It's very sad
[1:00:12] because in in Paradise Lost, Lucifer is
[1:00:14] a more of a tragic figure than a real
[1:00:16] really evil figure. So but you don't
[1:00:19] have that in the Buddhist mythology. So
[1:00:23] in the fif the the suta after the one
[1:00:26] with the encounter with Brahma, it's
[1:00:28] Mogulana's got stomach ache. Mogulana
[1:00:30] was the Buddha's second disciple. He's
[1:00:31] got a stomach ache. Oh, something
[1:00:33] weird's going on in my guts. What's
[1:00:35] happening here? And he had great psychic
[1:00:37] powers. He sent his mind down into his
[1:00:39] guts and he thought, "Oh, this isn't an
[1:00:40] ordinary stomach ache. This is Mara
[1:00:43] trying to mess up with mess up with my
[1:00:44] digestion." And then he says, "Mara, I
[1:00:47] know it's you. You get out of my
[1:00:49] stomach. you're you're causing trouble.
[1:00:51] You're just trying to, you know, harass
[1:00:53] me and be difficult. And then Mars in
[1:00:56] the suit of Marus says he can't know
[1:00:57] it's me. I'm really well hidden. You
[1:00:59] know, he's just guessing. You know, he
[1:01:01] can't possibly. And then Malana having
[1:01:04] the powers he does says, "You just
[1:01:07] thought he can't know it's me."
[1:01:09] [laughter]
[1:01:10] And I know it's you. And do you know how
[1:01:12] I know it's you? [snorts] Because uh in
[1:01:15] a previous life that um there was a mara
[1:01:19] called Ducy and that Mara Ducey was
[1:01:22] trying to harass the the Buddha
[1:01:24] Kakusandanda and so he entered the mind
[1:01:27] of a village boy and caused that village
[1:01:30] boy to pick up a rock and throw it and
[1:01:31] the rock hit the head of of um Vidura
[1:01:35] who was the um that that Buddha
[1:01:38] Kakusandanda's disciple and caused his
[1:01:40] head to to to be injured. didn't bleed.
[1:01:43] And then uh the bu the Buddha
[1:01:46] Kakusandanda turned around and and
[1:01:48] looked at that Mara Ducey and said,
[1:01:50] "Ducina Mara, you know no moderation."
[1:01:54] And then he was swallowed up into the
[1:01:56] earth and his life came to an end. He
[1:01:57] said, "Do you know how how I know that
[1:01:59] story? Because I was that Mara
[1:02:02] and you know how I know you is because
[1:02:05] that Mara had a sister called Cari and
[1:02:08] Cari had a son Namucci and that's you.
[1:02:10] So I was your uncle. I know you.
[1:02:16] So a very kind of sweet in kind. Again,
[1:02:18] you think, well, it's all just fairy
[1:02:19] tales. Aan, come on. You this [snorts]
[1:02:22] is the 21st century, you know. But
[1:02:26] mythologically, very different from
[1:02:27] Lucifer being cast down to eternal hell.
[1:02:31] You have the Buddha's second disciple,
[1:02:33] the great arant who a few lifetimes
[1:02:36] previously was the embodiment of the of
[1:02:39] e of unh wholesomeness in the universe.
[1:02:41] So Mogulana was Mara in that lifetime.
[1:02:44] So not only is Mara redeemable,
[1:02:48] rescuable, but also a few times
[1:02:50] lifetimes later can arrive at full and
[1:02:53] complete enlightenment. So so redemption
[1:02:57] is possible. There's hope for all of us
[1:02:59] is the short version of that. So, it's
[1:03:01] just gone over the the mark at 3:00. So,
[1:03:04] let's have a break for 20 minutes and
[1:03:06] then some tea and refreshments and then
[1:03:08] we can have some time for discussion.
[1:03:13] And please don't come up and ask your
[1:03:14] questions during the break. Even when I
[1:03:16] say that, people keep doing it. So, so
[1:03:18] please don't save your questions for
[1:03:21] everyone.
[1:03:40] Please uh find your seats again and uh
[1:03:44] as I often say please um uh
[1:03:49] please produce questions that are
[1:03:51] related to the day's theme. Sometimes I
[1:03:54] say that and then people come up with
[1:03:56] something completely different they've
[1:03:57] brought with them in their pocket.
[1:04:00] But I think it is helpful to be
[1:04:02] reasonably disciplined and keep to the
[1:04:05] the subject at hand. Uh but uh
[1:04:10] uh you can never you never predict how
[1:04:13] things will will go. So please do uh be
[1:04:19] prepared to bring forth your questions
[1:04:22] and uh there's a microphone here in the
[1:04:24] center and so be grateful if anyone does
[1:04:26] have a question they can pick up the
[1:04:28] microphone and use it so that everyone
[1:04:30] can hear the question.
[1:04:36] You'll need to switch it on.
[1:04:40] >> Hello and um thank you for the talk. it
[1:04:42] was uh most enjoyable.
[1:04:45] So I do have a question and it's um
[1:04:48] directly linked to the name Mara.
[1:04:52] I wasn't aware of the meaning of Mara
[1:04:55] until about six weeks ago. And I
[1:04:58] actually know Amara
[1:05:00] who is um a massage therapist.
[1:05:06] Why is that funny? [laughter]
[1:05:10] So, I've probably had
[1:05:14] in the last year, I'm guessing maybe 25
[1:05:19] massages
[1:05:20] cuz that is one of my guilty pleas one
[1:05:23] of my gu one of my guilty pleasures is
[1:05:25] to go for a massage. You know, I've
[1:05:28] stopped drinking alcohol. I've stopped
[1:05:30] smoking. So you know one has to give a
[1:05:34] spiritual pat on the back and enjoy
[1:05:36] oneself or at least that is my
[1:05:38] philosophy.
[1:05:41] Um am I able to completely speak my
[1:05:44] truth?
[1:05:45] >> Well is it good to have a question. This
[1:05:48] is asking questions. Yeah.
[1:05:50] >> So the question is why would the parents
[1:05:54] call their daughter Mara?
[1:05:57] >> Because in Eastern Europe it has a
[1:06:00] different meaning.
[1:06:01] But she's Thai and they're Buddhist.
[1:06:06] >> Well, that's very interesting then. Um,
[1:06:09] well, [snorts] the uh the Thai
[1:06:11] transliteration of the word is man. The
[1:06:16] the R becomes an N sound. Man, is that
[1:06:19] right? There. Thank you. So, the uh
[1:06:22] maybe the R sound has a different
[1:06:25] meaning in Thai.
[1:06:28] Any thoughts?
[1:06:34] Um I I'm not I'm not sure why. Um I know
[1:06:37] in Eastern Europe you do come across
[1:06:39] people with uh with the name Mara has a
[1:06:41] different origin but um sometimes uh in
[1:06:46] Thailand um you can sit down if you
[1:06:48] like. The um I when when Ajin Seed was a
[1:06:53] uh a young monk um he was very surprised
[1:06:58] that one of the senior monks at Wabapong
[1:07:02] was called his his name was ugly dog.
[1:07:07] Uh and uh he thought he his tie wasn't
[1:07:10] very good and he thought he must be mis
[1:07:12] misharing that. And then he as time went
[1:07:14] by a few months passed and he no it
[1:07:16] really is ugly dog. And then so he said
[1:07:20] you tanjan
[1:07:22] why is that your name? And he said, "Oh,
[1:07:24] well, I was born on a very unlucky day."
[1:07:27] And so in that in my village or my
[1:07:31] province, if a child is born on a day
[1:07:33] with the with the the planets in a in an
[1:07:37] unfortunate configuration, then the
[1:07:39] parents will give the child a really
[1:07:41] horrible name so that the or the the
[1:07:44] forces of mischief will leave it alone.
[1:07:47] And so that was his so it's a
[1:07:50] possibility that she came from that same
[1:07:52] same kind of a culture
[1:07:54] but it's just guesswork on on on my
[1:07:57] part. So [snorts]
[1:08:00] >> okay one more. Yeah please.
[1:08:02] >> So it's in relation to Mara. So I'm um a
[1:08:06] key numerologist
[1:08:08] and she doesn't know um her date of
[1:08:11] birth which I do find somewhat strange.
[1:08:14] But also what I've picked up, I'm I
[1:08:16] would say I'm very um sensit I'm very
[1:08:19] sensitive to people's energy, especially
[1:08:22] if I'm very um in close proximity. You
[1:08:26] you don't get much closer than them when
[1:08:27] you're getting a massage.
[1:08:30] I feel
[1:08:32] just a complete emptiness with within
[1:08:35] her. Even though she's very very
[1:08:37] pleasant and very efficient and you know
[1:08:41] um gives a lovely massage but I feel
[1:08:44] within her just total and utter
[1:08:47] emptiness which seems that along with
[1:08:51] being called Mara and not knowing her
[1:08:53] date of birth
[1:08:55] something doesn't feel right.
[1:08:58] >> Life is full of mysteries. It
[1:09:00] >> certainly is. That that's my only
[1:09:04] meaningful response
[1:09:06] here.
[1:09:08] So I hope that's useful. So please any
[1:09:10] other questions also my name is Amura
[1:09:14] which means not Mara
[1:09:17] deathless. So Amaravati same same means
[1:09:20] the deathless realm. So
[1:09:24] >> I have a quick question. Um
[1:09:26] >> I'm not good with quick answers.
[1:09:28] [laughter]
[1:09:30] The first thing that strikes me is the
[1:09:32] similarity with the story of Jesus when
[1:09:34] he's in the desert also. He was
[1:09:36] confronted with type of tempter as well.
[1:09:40] Um so it's it's curious that the the
[1:09:43] story repeats itself.
[1:09:45] >> And the other thing maybe you can
[1:09:46] comment on is you know Mora being the
[1:09:49] evil one but maybe it's an angel in
[1:09:52] disguise because it helps our awakening
[1:09:55] to some extent.
[1:09:57] Well, I'd say it's not really a
[1:09:59] coincidence or I'm not really surprised
[1:10:02] the stories of Jesus in the desert and
[1:10:05] St. Anthony also famously um uh so that
[1:10:10] because whether it's sort of myth uh
[1:10:14] etherically existent entities or
[1:10:16] psychological states that's um what uh
[1:10:21] what is met when when a a human being or
[1:10:24] a living being um intends to meet with
[1:10:29] everything that's obstructive or
[1:10:30] difficult and to transcend that or to to
[1:10:33] develop the heart. um to to see beyond
[1:10:37] that to to be beyond those forces and
[1:10:40] not to be guided by forces of reactivity
[1:10:42] and selfishness and laziness and greed
[1:10:44] and so on that that's what is met and it
[1:10:48] can take shape internally or externally
[1:10:50] and so that and like you know the in the
[1:10:53] the Jesus myths you know say Satan
[1:10:56] offering offering him the world you can
[1:10:59] be in charge of this same as the Buddha
[1:11:01] sitting up in the Himalayas Mara is very
[1:11:03] busy you know internationally operative
[1:11:07] but uh so yeah I would say that's it
[1:11:11] crosses cultural boundaries because it's
[1:11:13] the mind meeting with those powerful
[1:11:16] instinctual forces of aggression and
[1:11:19] fear and ownership and desire uh self-
[1:11:23] concern
[1:11:25] etc etc and that in order to meet those
[1:11:28] and know those and to um uh not be
[1:11:32] dominated by that that there's work
[1:11:34] that's involved in those same kind of
[1:11:36] encounters take shape. So, you know, in
[1:11:39] a uh Jung was was um quite hesitant to
[1:11:44] talk about his own sort of visionary
[1:11:46] states. They they only his family only
[1:11:48] allowed his personal diaries and records
[1:11:51] to be published long after he'd passed
[1:11:53] away. But, you know, Yung is known, I
[1:11:55] mean, he obviously covered uh some
[1:11:58] fairly colorful territory in terms of
[1:11:59] talking about the unconscious and
[1:12:01] synchronicity and so on. But um when I
[1:12:04] left California, one of the I was given
[1:12:06] a a a sort of a present of this book
[1:12:09] that had just been published called The
[1:12:11] Red Book. And it's all of Jung's sort of
[1:12:14] personal diaries and beautiful
[1:12:16] calligraphy and paintings of what had
[1:12:19] been going on in him for like more than
[1:12:21] a dozen years. And he was having these
[1:12:24] sort of encounters with these different
[1:12:25] entities and spirit guides and going
[1:12:27] through all sorts of extremely um
[1:12:30] colorful realms and uh and he was a very
[1:12:34] sort of uh highly respected sort of not
[1:12:38] exactly hard-edged western psychologist
[1:12:40] but you know academically very very
[1:12:43] respected psychologist. So, and he um
[1:12:49] and in that there's the same kind of
[1:12:52] question. Well, are these are these
[1:12:54] guides and these beings I'm meeting are
[1:12:56] they outside or are they inside? H
[1:13:00] that's about as as I recall it's about
[1:13:03] as far as you get is a kind of
[1:13:06] but uh I feel it is very archetypal
[1:13:08] speaking of Jung that um those
[1:13:13] uh qualities of of nature and of our of
[1:13:16] our own being that the mind casts us
[1:13:20] into different forms
[1:13:22] um according to our cultural
[1:13:24] conditioning and what as human beings
[1:13:27] will will in a sense may be meaningful
[1:13:29] to us. Again, I don't have a a a precise
[1:13:33] picture of how it all works, but you
[1:13:35] know, in um in one of Joseph Campbell's
[1:13:38] books, uh talking because he was very
[1:13:41] very um well-versed in mythology and
[1:13:44] religion from all around the world, you
[1:13:46] know, he would say when uh some a child
[1:13:50] who is growing up um in in China
[1:13:54] um when um some situation brings forth
[1:13:59] the embodiment ment of compassion. They
[1:14:01] would see Guanian bodhisa
[1:14:04] in Tibet. That would be a male figure of
[1:14:08] of of avalakishwara chenresik.
[1:14:11] In the Middle East, in a Christian uh
[1:14:14] circumstance, it would be uh it' be
[1:14:17] mother Mary. Um and so that the the mind
[1:14:20] forms those archetypal energies
[1:14:22] according to the what you grown up with.
[1:14:25] So in in Britain it'll be one thing in
[1:14:27] in uh in Ireland it'll be St. Bridget
[1:14:30] you know it be mother Mary or uh and uh
[1:14:35] the the forces of danger and destruction
[1:14:38] again you there'll be different
[1:14:40] according to the the culture that you're
[1:14:42] you're you arise in and the mind draws
[1:14:46] upon its memories its imagination and
[1:14:48] then but also say oh so it's just the
[1:14:50] imagination Ajan is that right? Well,
[1:14:54] yes and no. Because you know where does
[1:14:57] a human being start and stop? You know
[1:15:01] where where where does your mind end and
[1:15:03] mind begin?
[1:15:06] M the mind is unlocated.
[1:15:09] So it's only the body rupacandanda is
[1:15:12] related to three-dimensional space. The
[1:15:14] mind has no relationship to space. So
[1:15:18] there isn't a place where your mind ends
[1:15:19] and mine begins. They they
[1:15:22] overlap. But you can't really even talk
[1:15:24] about overlapping because space space
[1:15:26] physical space doesn't apply.
[1:15:30] So our lives and the natural the natural
[1:15:33] order the natural world is is uh in a
[1:15:37] way it's it's a single body the body of
[1:15:40] nature the body of reality and that we
[1:15:42] experience this bit of it you know most
[1:15:45] effect you know immediately and
[1:15:46] intimately but our lives overlap and
[1:15:49] then we're drawing upon the forces of
[1:15:51] nature not just all or is it all within
[1:15:53] me I well yes but what is what's me
[1:15:56] referring to me as the natural Buddha
[1:16:01] why not you know that so um
[1:16:06] the the Buddha's rather than trying to
[1:16:08] sort of figure out what actually is the
[1:16:11] case the uh one of the aspects of the
[1:16:14] Buddhist teaching I didn't talk about
[1:16:15] today but I'll talk about now is that
[1:16:19] when you're exploring these kind of um
[1:16:22] trying sort of to map the territory of
[1:16:24] life the universe and everything then
[1:16:27] one of the most helpful principles is
[1:16:28] the Buddha saying I teach one thing
[1:16:31] suffering and the end of suffering.
[1:16:33] Yeah, he didn't say all the rest is
[1:16:35] gravy. But he could have done that's
[1:16:38] that's the other leaves in the forest
[1:16:39] that you see suffering and the end of
[1:16:41] suffering duka and the duka that's it
[1:16:44] all the rest that images mental images
[1:16:47] or ways of describing things
[1:16:50] in terms of mythical forms or etheric
[1:16:52] beings or mind states or or mathematical
[1:16:55] equations or music. you know that uh you
[1:16:59] can't describe what you're experiencing
[1:17:01] in words but you can put it into a tune
[1:17:03] a music you know different people have
[1:17:05] different ways of expressing so rather
[1:17:08] than trying to pin down a precise
[1:17:10] definition
[1:17:12] the Buddha I feel right from the
[1:17:13] beginning he realized reality is not
[1:17:16] definable so let's just attend to the
[1:17:19] one the one thing that makes a
[1:17:22] difference in everybody's life and where
[1:17:24] change beneficial change can be brought
[1:17:28] about. Okay, duka ending of duker.
[1:17:31] That's it. And it was to me it's kind of
[1:17:34] amazing that he he saw that right from
[1:17:36] the get-go and that was his the the the
[1:17:40] guiding ethic right up until the his
[1:17:42] final passing away. He never changed his
[1:17:45] program really. It's in a in the
[1:17:47] southern Buddhist world. It's like
[1:17:49] that's what he stayed with. And so he
[1:17:53] taught huge amounts of uh of of people
[1:17:56] and and various various teachings but
[1:17:59] all of them are sort of supplementary to
[1:18:01] that one basic principle. Know the
[1:18:04] experience of dukah of dissatisfaction
[1:18:06] and know how that can be brought to an
[1:18:08] end. That's it. All the rest is extra.
[1:18:10] It can be helpful like the 84,000 domat
[1:18:14] talks are there but uh it's it's all
[1:18:18] sort of peripheral. So around the edges
[1:18:21] of that that core principle. So um the
[1:18:25] uh uh these kind of themes and say oh
[1:18:29] rather than having to pin down exactly
[1:18:30] the the differences and the and the
[1:18:33] similarities between Jesus's experience
[1:18:35] in the desert and and the Buddha in the
[1:18:37] Himalayas. Okay. Well, they're kind of
[1:18:40] related stories. That's enough. They
[1:18:42] resonate in our in our minds. Okay.
[1:18:45] Don't have to pin it down and say,
[1:18:46] "Well, where was the Buddha sitting in
[1:18:48] the Himalayas? We need we need a map
[1:18:49] reference, you know, we need a date
[1:18:52] like, well, do you really? So that um as
[1:18:57] I said I'm not very good at short
[1:18:58] answers but um the just seeing those
[1:19:03] relationships and letting those inform
[1:19:04] us in an intuitive way and then letting
[1:19:08] that inside outside same same um that
[1:19:12] and on that that level there's a another
[1:19:16] be the last another question. So um um
[1:19:20] there was a Jesuit priest called Father
[1:19:23] William Johnson who was living in Japan
[1:19:26] and he got interested in in Zen Buddhism
[1:19:29] and started going on to Zen teachings
[1:19:31] and um and so he wrote this book called
[1:19:34] um about Christianity and Zen and the
[1:19:38] sort of dumo of the book the last line
[1:19:39] was there will never be such a thing as
[1:19:41] Christian Zen and predictably his next
[1:19:44] book was called Christian Zen.
[1:19:46] [laughter]
[1:19:47] So anyway, he described this in in a Zen
[1:19:51] retreat. They have a these very brief
[1:19:54] interviews called Dusan
[1:19:56] and it's a sort of in interchange
[1:19:58] between the the teacher, the Roshi and
[1:20:00] the student. And so he goes in to have
[1:20:02] Dusan with the the Roshi and um about
[1:20:06] you three or four days into this sasheen
[1:20:08] the retreat and the the Roshi asks how
[1:20:12] is it and he says very good. Um it's uh
[1:20:18] it's just me sitting there in the
[1:20:20] presence of God.
[1:20:23] And then Roshi says, "Oh, very good.
[1:20:25] Well, soon there'll just be soon you'll
[1:20:28] disappear and sorry, uh God will
[1:20:30] disappear and they'll just be you."
[1:20:33] And then Father William said, "Oh, I
[1:20:35] thought I would disappear and it' just
[1:20:37] be God." He said, "Same, same."
[1:20:42] So anyway, another question. Please pick
[1:20:45] up the
[1:20:51] >> uh thanks Law for the Dama talk. I just
[1:20:53] wanted to ask is mara just our
[1:20:55] defilements or is it more than that? Um
[1:20:59] and if it's more than that is there any
[1:21:01] skillful means to deal with mara in
[1:21:03] daily life?
[1:21:05] Well, as I was good question, but as I
[1:21:07] was describing, effectively, it's the
[1:21:11] the the whole spectrum of defilements
[1:21:13] like I was describing from the machara
[1:21:17] in terms of death, ego death and
[1:21:19] physical death, killesom around desire
[1:21:23] and aversion and and the realm of
[1:21:26] feeling um attachment to the body and
[1:21:29] the personality think you know I am a
[1:21:31] woman, I am a man, I am so many years
[1:21:34] told I this is my these are my
[1:21:37] qualifications and this is where I live
[1:21:39] my family um and so and then so the very
[1:21:43] subtle defilements of like sitting in a
[1:21:45] meditation retreat with your your mind
[1:21:48] completely free of greed hatred and and
[1:21:50] most most of delusion but there being
[1:21:52] the subtle feeling of there's a
[1:21:54] meditator here
[1:21:56] you know there there's a me who's the
[1:21:58] experiencer of this uh it's a defilement
[1:22:02] it's but it's a kind of up it's a it's a
[1:22:04] refined kind of development but so it's
[1:22:06] a whole spectrum from the very coarse
[1:22:08] to the very very refined and so like da
[1:22:11] put that is there's this aura of of
[1:22:15] brightness and purity and holiness
[1:22:18] another [snorts] of the the sources for
[1:22:21] this and it's very closely related to
[1:22:23] the the upillesa the defilements of
[1:22:27] insight in in the northern Buddhist
[1:22:29] tradition there's a from China there's a
[1:22:32] a a fairly unique
[1:22:34] scripture called the Shurangama Sutra.
[1:22:37] It's a kind of main meditation teaching
[1:22:38] in the Chan tradition in China, but you
[1:22:41] don't find it in exactly the same form
[1:22:43] in Tibet or in in um in the it's the
[1:22:47] southern Buddhist world. It's kind of um
[1:22:50] but it's uh in China it's very
[1:22:53] influential and the last section of it
[1:22:55] is called the 50 scand demon states and
[1:22:58] very like the five maras it has 10
[1:23:01] defilements associated with each of the
[1:23:03] five kundas so 50 five times 10 so uh
[1:23:07] and then the first ones for rup
[1:23:09] rupacanda uh are very kind of coarse
[1:23:12] defilements you like violence and and um
[1:23:16] you know selfishness greed and so on but
[1:23:18] then by the time you get to the
[1:23:19] vinyanakanda
[1:23:21] these are the kind of problems that
[1:23:22] anagami's run into kind of once
[1:23:23] returners like the um and so it's a it's
[1:23:29] makes interesting reading there's I
[1:23:30] think there's a set in the library the
[1:23:32] in the Amraati library um with good
[1:23:35] translation to English you can probably
[1:23:36] I don't know if you read Chinese but
[1:23:39] but there's good English translations
[1:23:41] there so the um uh that kind of area is
[1:23:46] like um someone might be a very um a
[1:23:50] powerful teacher. They have thousands of
[1:23:52] disciples. They're very eloquent
[1:23:54] speaker. They have a a great radiant
[1:23:56] presence and they're known as an
[1:23:58] enlightened guru. But they take pleasure
[1:24:01] in the there's a relishing of the number
[1:24:04] of people who come to their talks. They
[1:24:06] in they there's a a subtle um enjoyment
[1:24:10] of people's devotion and a dependency on
[1:24:15] people's devotion. [snorts]
[1:24:17] And so um and then with each of the the
[1:24:21] descriptions of the the states so and it
[1:24:23] might be that someone is already is an
[1:24:24] anagami there a non- returnturner like
[1:24:26] the one notch one notch below arahanship
[1:24:30] um but they still might think oh a lot
[1:24:32] of people came today
[1:24:35] I'm really popular and not even voicing
[1:24:38] it but that that sort of relishing being
[1:24:40] there and then each of the sections ends
[1:24:43] with the words if they know that it's a
[1:24:45] state it's a good state if they don't
[1:24:47] know that it's a state they are bound to
[1:24:49] fall.
[1:24:51] [snorts] So it doesn't mean you can just
[1:24:52] sort of decide oh I won't feel jealous
[1:24:55] of someone else getting all the
[1:24:56] attention or I won't feel embarrassed
[1:24:58] about my project having failed or uh I I
[1:25:02] won't feel uh enjoyment of having a big
[1:25:04] crowd of people on a Sunday afternoon.
[1:25:06] But if I know oh that's an enjoyment if
[1:25:09] you know it's a state like if you eat
[1:25:12] some food that you find delicious you go
[1:25:14] wow this is good you
[1:25:17] the the that kind of practice or knowing
[1:25:19] mara in that respect is like knowing oh
[1:25:22] this is the delicious taste here is the
[1:25:23] mind saying yes that's it so knowing it
[1:25:28] that's the I know you mara if when the
[1:25:31] the mind oh this is good and how can I
[1:25:36] how Can I make an excuse to get some
[1:25:38] more? [laughter]
[1:25:40] Um, [snorts]
[1:25:41] then that is not that mara is not being
[1:25:43] recognized. It's kind of giving that
[1:25:45] that bite of food an intrinsic value.
[1:25:49] It's not being seen as a state. It's not
[1:25:52] being seen as dependent. If you are
[1:25:54] suddenly nauseious, exactly the same
[1:25:57] food, you take one look at it or smell
[1:25:59] it and go because of the body's in a
[1:26:02] different state. So it's not that food
[1:26:05] is not inherently delicious.
[1:26:08] That appreciation from other people is
[1:26:10] not in inherently good. It's good
[1:26:13] because of the the conditions of the
[1:26:15] experience. So in everyday life, the
[1:26:18] more that we use mindfulness and wisdom
[1:26:22] uh cultivate that vija datu, the the
[1:26:25] element of awareness that knows um you
[1:26:29] make a presentation and that your in
[1:26:31] your academic department or in your
[1:26:33] business um proposal and people go, "Oh,
[1:26:37] well done. That was amazing. That was
[1:26:38] incredible." You
[1:26:40] started and and you enjoy it. But the
[1:26:44] mind that says yes, yeah, I really I
[1:26:47] really I really scored there. That is b
[1:26:50] you're bound to fall. That's the dooka
[1:26:52] is being generated right there. If we're
[1:26:56] recognizing the maras like this is
[1:26:58] really delicious, I'm being praised not
[1:27:01] just by my peers but my bosses too. The
[1:27:03] head of department is beaming
[1:27:08] sweet taste.
[1:27:10] That's it. And so then that um that's in
[1:27:15] everyday life very active situations or
[1:27:17] being [snorts]
[1:27:20] uh in the family not just in the working
[1:27:21] world the family you [snorts] might be
[1:27:24] um I mean like like to my sisters
[1:27:28] I am not the abbot of Amraati monastery
[1:27:31] I'm their little brother because I am
[1:27:34] [laughter]
[1:27:35] in their world that's who I am that's
[1:27:38] that's why I spend time with those other
[1:27:40] human beings
[1:27:41] because they're my sisters. We were born
[1:27:43] in the same family. You know, we're
[1:27:44] close growing up and have that that that
[1:27:48] connection. They don't draw close to me
[1:27:50] as a human being because I'm the abbot
[1:27:51] of monastery. They draw close because we
[1:27:53] have the same parents. We grew up
[1:27:55] together. You know, we love each other.
[1:27:56] So, I'm not the same person with them as
[1:28:01] I am here because here I'm the abot of
[1:28:04] Amirati. And uh so if I want them to see
[1:28:09] me as Ajan Amro and you know they should
[1:28:12] bow three times when I walk in the room
[1:28:18] that's not going to work.
[1:28:20] [snorts]
[1:28:22] And similarly, if I if if I if I related
[1:28:25] to all of you um as as if you were my
[1:28:29] sisters in the kind of family
[1:28:30] environment and and [snorts] rather than
[1:28:34] than sitting in the middle seat and
[1:28:36] giving a talk, so we're just having
[1:28:38] family chitchat about um the uh you know
[1:28:42] various bits and bits and pieces that we
[1:28:44] talk about as families, home
[1:28:45] improvements, travels,
[1:28:48] u past uh past events and so
[1:28:52] that would be really weird. It would it
[1:28:54] wouldn't fit with this group. So that um
[1:28:58] part of that cultivation of mindfulness
[1:29:02] and recognizing those the maras is like
[1:29:06] I always want I demand to be seen a
[1:29:08] certain way and if your your your
[1:29:10] parents or your grandparents they still
[1:29:12] treat you like a little girl. It's like,
[1:29:14] well, because they were there when you
[1:29:17] were born [snorts] there. You know, you
[1:29:19] were the little grandchild. So that
[1:29:21] that's you can't say you shouldn't see
[1:29:24] me that way because that's how they see
[1:29:26] you. It's that's their prerogative. You
[1:29:28] can you can feel that kind of, you know,
[1:29:31] I'm a middle-aged woman. I'm grown up.
[1:29:34] [snorts] Don't you don't talk to me like
[1:29:36] I'm five years old. You Well, you might
[1:29:39] feel that, but recognize, oh yeah, I
[1:29:40] know you, Mara. It's like I am a serious
[1:29:44] professional woman. I don't want to be
[1:29:46] treated like a 5-year-old. That's the I
[1:29:48] don't want to be treated like a
[1:29:49] 5-year-old feeling.
[1:29:51] [snorts] That's it. And then so you're
[1:29:53] not being passive or you're not sort of
[1:29:55] shutting that down, but you're
[1:29:56] recognizing um oh well, I'm asking too
[1:29:59] much if I want my gr my granny to to
[1:30:02] treat me like a an an adult all the time
[1:30:05] because
[1:30:07] that's there there's that conditioning
[1:30:08] on that side. So what that means is that
[1:30:11] we we are much more the more we reflect
[1:30:13] in this way and use that kind of a
[1:30:16] practice then the more adaptable we are
[1:30:19] to circumstances. We don't always have
[1:30:20] to be seen in a certain way. We don't
[1:30:23] always have to be performing in a
[1:30:25] certain way. We can let ourselves fail
[1:30:28] without dying.
[1:30:31] You know, you do you do your
[1:30:32] presentation, you spent, you know, weeks
[1:30:36] at preparing or you're an artist and
[1:30:38] you've just got to put months and months
[1:30:41] of work into a into an exhibition at a
[1:30:44] gallery and the the the opening show is
[1:30:49] done in 15 minutes and everyone's gone
[1:30:51] home. It's like, whoa,
[1:30:54] that's painful. [laughter]
[1:30:56] You know, you're not pretending it's not
[1:30:58] painful. Okay. Well, that's eight months
[1:31:01] of work dismissed in a quarter of an
[1:31:03] hour. Okay.
[1:31:05] Right. Let's work with that. Digest
[1:31:07] that. So that even what we call failure
[1:31:11] can be beneficial rather rather than
[1:31:14] that the fear of public speaking or
[1:31:17] dying on stage or like the last thing
[1:31:19] you want to happen is to everyone walk
[1:31:21] out of your out of your uh your launch.
[1:31:24] [laughter]
[1:31:25] with disappointed looks on their faces
[1:31:27] and heading for the tube you so that is
[1:31:31] an that's a kind of superpower
[1:31:34] that we and one of the things reading
[1:31:36] through the sutas even when the Buddha
[1:31:38] is criticized or that and it's kind of
[1:31:42] interesting the very first dhamma talk
[1:31:44] in the majimanikaya
[1:31:47] and I [snorts] say as I said I do quite
[1:31:49] a bit of editing um to me it's a great
[1:31:52] credit to the editors of the pi cannon
[1:31:54] the ancient editors. Suta number one of
[1:31:58] the Majim Minikaya like there's like 150
[1:32:02] sutas in that suta number one which is a
[1:32:05] very sophisticated
[1:32:07] um sort of philosophical analysis is
[1:32:09] called the root of all things the
[1:32:10] brahmach the um moola paraya suta the
[1:32:14] root of all things and the Buddha's
[1:32:16] explaining in great detail um uh these
[1:32:20] subtleties of existence and
[1:32:21] non-existence to this group of monks and
[1:32:25] um uh explaining his philosophy of the
[1:32:28] middle way and at the end of that suta
[1:32:31] it says and those monks were not pleased
[1:32:32] with what the blessed one said
[1:32:36] so talk number one is a failure [snorts]
[1:32:39] it's long sophisticated refined talk and
[1:32:41] at the end of it's like they don't like
[1:32:44] that don't agree verbal sir and you know
[1:32:48] the commentaries say well they had been
[1:32:49] brahinss before they became bikus and so
[1:32:52] they were they were attached to theories
[1:32:54] of existence of the eternal ism and so
[1:32:57] they found the Buddha's philosophy
[1:32:58] uncomfortable but but I thought well
[1:33:00] very good for the editors number one it
[1:33:03] was a he bombed as it were the the and
[1:33:07] they put it in the text the the the the
[1:33:09] the monks were not pleased with the
[1:33:12] blessed one's words very good kind of
[1:33:15] makes me feel these are reliable texts
[1:33:19] that [snorts] if it was polished nor
[1:33:20] made everyone's always inspired and
[1:33:22] everything the Buddha said is glorious
[1:33:24] and totally totally accepted and it
[1:33:27] doesn't make fun of the monks. He
[1:33:28] doesn't kind of put them down. And
[1:33:30] sometimes when he has an interface with
[1:33:32] other philosophers and they present a a
[1:33:35] radically different view, then the the
[1:33:38] um they'll kind of be made fun of in the
[1:33:40] text or that they they kind of go off
[1:33:44] with furrowed brow or spitting blood and
[1:33:46] kind of
[1:33:48] kind of being
[1:33:51] mocked a somewhat. But in that instance
[1:33:54] it's just the bigus didn't approve and
[1:33:56] that's it as I remember just that's it
[1:33:58] no other comment it's quite okay for
[1:34:00] them to to disapprove and and then oh
[1:34:02] later on they all became arahans you
[1:34:03] know might be in the commentary but to
[1:34:05] me it's a great strength and it shows
[1:34:07] the reliability of the teaching that
[1:34:09] sometimes the Buddha gave a really
[1:34:11] amazing comprehensive teaching and his
[1:34:15] disciples who gone forth under him
[1:34:17] sitting there together with a fully
[1:34:18] enlightened Buddha saying
[1:34:21] don't don't like I don't agree.
[1:34:24] And so that um uh is
[1:34:30] and [snorts] then and then the Buddha is
[1:34:31] completely economist. He's not upset
[1:34:33] like how can you possibly not be pleased
[1:34:35] you know then [laughter]
[1:34:37] criticizing them but it's just that's
[1:34:39] it. That's the end of the suta. So
[1:34:42] um if we are wise you you know you just
[1:34:45] like the Buddha in that instance you do
[1:34:47] your best you put everything into your
[1:34:48] work or a family meeting or you're a
[1:34:52] musical performance or an exhibition or
[1:34:56] your work on a in a in the in a hospital
[1:34:59] or a company or whatever wherever you
[1:35:01] happen to be living and working in a
[1:35:03] monastery you do your best with it and
[1:35:08] uh and then learn from what the result
[1:35:10] is. is if everyone praises it and thinks
[1:35:11] that's amazing, that's wonderful. Okay,
[1:35:13] let's learn from that. If people walk
[1:35:17] out and [laughter]
[1:35:18] staring at the carpet or in and leave
[1:35:21] and and don't say anything and you're
[1:35:23] and you realize, well, that didn't work.
[1:35:24] You learn from that. So, it completely
[1:35:27] changes the whole way relate to success
[1:35:29] and failure, approval and disapproval.
[1:35:31] You're not negating it or denying it,
[1:35:34] but you're say okay, what can I learn?
[1:35:37] What can I learn from this? is the the
[1:35:39] basic principle. Not how can I always
[1:35:43] have everything delicious [laughter] and
[1:35:45] never anything bitter but when things
[1:35:47] really go go badly like in that mul
[1:35:50] paraya suta badly
[1:35:53] okay and just like um
[1:35:56] an example that the lump sum would often
[1:35:59] gives he say the the Buddha's first
[1:36:00] dharma talk is is usually reckoned as
[1:36:02] being the dhamma chaka suta the turning
[1:36:05] of the of the wheel of dharma where he
[1:36:08] described the middle way and the four
[1:36:09] noble truths it's Actually his first
[1:36:11] noble truth, his first damat talk wasn't
[1:36:13] the four noble truths. It was the
[1:36:16] dialogue with Upaka on the road to
[1:36:19] Vonasi. And he said the first Buddha's
[1:36:21] first damat talk was a failure.
[1:36:24] So he he's walking along the road and
[1:36:26] Upaka is another wanderer sees this
[1:36:28] radiant tall kind of extraordinary
[1:36:31] powerful uh figure. the sort of former
[1:36:33] prince, the bearing of of a former
[1:36:36] Khatrian prince walking along in rag
[1:36:38] robes and uh this incredible brightness
[1:36:41] and he said, "Wow, you know who are you?
[1:36:43] What have you realized here? Your your
[1:36:46] face is your countenance is amazing. You
[1:36:49] come so radiant, so peaceful. Who is
[1:36:51] your teacher? What what what have you
[1:36:53] realized? You um uh please tell me, you
[1:36:56] know, who are you? What have you what
[1:36:59] have you um uh what have you
[1:37:01] accomplished?" And um is it the case
[1:37:04] that uh you
[1:37:07] [snorts] have realized the deaths? And
[1:37:09] the Buddha said yes. Yeah. I I am fully
[1:37:12] awakened and in fact I'm the only fully
[1:37:14] awakened being in the whole world. Um
[1:37:17] and uh and I uh and soaka says, "Oh,
[1:37:22] really?" And yes, yes, I am the all
[1:37:25] accomplished one and I'm the only one
[1:37:28] and I'm on my way to Vonasi to go and
[1:37:30] beat the drum of deathlessness. And then
[1:37:33] a Pakist
[1:37:34] friend okay you know just like one meets
[1:37:37] occasionally on the street in London and
[1:37:40] Burkhamstead.
[1:37:43] Okay, good for you friend. And then he
[1:37:45] took then he Upaka took off by a
[1:37:47] different path.
[1:37:49] So as lump of say the Buddha learned
[1:37:52] quickly okay don't start with
[1:37:54] declaration of I am the ultimate reality
[1:37:58] but start off with why are you not
[1:38:00] totally happy all of the if there is an
[1:38:02] ultimate reality why are you not totally
[1:38:04] happy all of the time there is duka
[1:38:08] if there is an ultimate real that's the
[1:38:10] kind of the backdrop to the to the
[1:38:11] damashaka suta so if there is dharma if
[1:38:16] there's an ultimate reality
[1:38:18] that's the the uh the the the
[1:38:21] fundamental principle of all of all
[1:38:24] things. If there is an ultimate reality,
[1:38:27] why are we not happy?
[1:38:30] So duka is and so then he started from a
[1:38:34] completely different angle say okay
[1:38:38] birth is duka aging is duka so on so so
[1:38:41] then the four noble truths then there's
[1:38:43] duka there's a cause of duka the ending
[1:38:45] of duka and the way leading to the
[1:38:46] ending of duka so that was dumb talk
[1:38:49] number two but the first one okay
[1:38:51] declaration of truth
[1:38:54] doesn't work it was it was true but it
[1:38:58] didn't help So he wants to teach and
[1:39:00] communicate and help then the thing to
[1:39:02] do is okay what actually helps and then
[1:39:05] when Kandana understood and became a
[1:39:07] stream entress ah yes okay so then that
[1:39:11] was a track he followed from that time
[1:39:12] on was that uh the way of analysis
[1:39:16] rather than the way of declaration
[1:39:20] so time for one more
[1:39:27] all doubts have ended we
[1:39:37] Hello, Banti. Yes. Um, I'm wondering if
[1:39:41] I was going to ask you to speculate on
[1:39:43] what you what who Maro is. And I was
[1:39:47] thinking, um, there's ADHD, autism,
[1:39:50] we're all on the spectrum somewhere
[1:39:52] apparently. So, could there be uh could
[1:39:56] there be um schizophrenia?
[1:40:01] And we could be all on the spectrum
[1:40:03] somewhere where Mara like in some in
[1:40:08] some in some moments
[1:40:13] we are in the Mara state of mind. One of
[1:40:16] these five
[1:40:18] >> Mhm.
[1:40:18] >> inc incarnations of Mara. in other in
[1:40:22] other moments we're in the better states
[1:40:25] of mind. So might the Buddha be
[1:40:30] referring to to that? For for example, I
[1:40:34] come to Amarawati, I listen to talks
[1:40:36] >> and I think, oh, I must ordain now to
[1:40:41] to make the most of the time I have left
[1:40:44] to try and reach
[1:40:46] this goal. And then I walk out and I
[1:40:51] start thinking about my bank account and
[1:40:53] my kids and everything else. So
[1:40:57] that that may be there may be like
[1:40:59] glimpses of that split personality
[1:41:01] that's pulling me away. Could that be
[1:41:04] what the Buddha was talking about?
[1:41:06] >> Short answer. Yes. Exactly. That's
[1:41:08] precisely it is that um the you know
[1:41:13] again whether we we think of Mara as an
[1:41:17] external entity or an internal set of
[1:41:21] processes and habits um inclinations
[1:41:25] um that that's exactly it. Yeah. And
[1:41:28] then one one of the most significant
[1:41:29] things is that when when the mara comes
[1:41:32] there's a whole section of again of the
[1:41:35] um connected discourses the bikuni
[1:41:37] sanuta and and all of all of the
[1:41:40] discourses in that collection are mara
[1:41:42] coming to harass the nuns and try to
[1:41:44] dissuade them from practicing and and
[1:41:46] kind of confuse them and they and they
[1:41:49] all recognize mara and uh you know I
[1:41:52] know you and they're un undismayed un
[1:41:55] dissuaded from their practice.
[1:41:57] Um so it's uh that uh the result of that
[1:42:02] so and also the Buddha or Malana you
[1:42:04] know these different situations. So when
[1:42:06] anyone has that I know you Mara you know
[1:42:10] that Janami [clears throat]
[1:42:12] Coahima
[1:42:15] you know I know you evil one I know I
[1:42:17] know what you are then the result of
[1:42:20] that is that Mara loses his power.
[1:42:24] Now again it's not just knowing about
[1:42:28] you know you know that I've got the idea
[1:42:30] this is just mara it's the it's the more
[1:42:33] complete and profound knowing like I
[1:42:35] know what this is I know this is I'm
[1:42:37] being lied to.
[1:42:40] So um that uh and when you know you're
[1:42:43] being lied to then you can't buy into
[1:42:47] that. So it's not just knowing oh this
[1:42:50] is attractive or this is irritating or
[1:42:52] this is worrying. Um this is just the
[1:42:55] mara as a kind of naming that as an
[1:42:58] idea. It's a so which I would call
[1:43:01] knowing about.
[1:43:03] It's that more profound and complete
[1:43:05] knowing of like uh I'm being lied to
[1:43:09] and I can't be I can't be tricked by
[1:43:12] this lie because I know it's a lie. So I
[1:43:15] hear the words as it were. you know, I'm
[1:43:19] I'm receiving the the image of that, the
[1:43:21] story of it, but I know this is this is
[1:43:23] just not true. So, if you know something
[1:43:26] is is not true and that it's designed to
[1:43:30] deceive, then um it's much easier not to
[1:43:33] buy into it. But um
[1:43:37] a [snorts] lot of our life is and our
[1:43:40] conditioning as human beings is to go
[1:43:43] along with not exactly lies but
[1:43:46] imaginative presentations like what I
[1:43:49] think it was um
[1:43:52] Keats called the willing suspension of
[1:43:54] disbelief in terms of art that you kind
[1:43:57] of go into a story you know Harry Potter
[1:44:00] doesn't actually exist
[1:44:05] He's not there's no genetic profile.
[1:44:09] There's no DNA that belongs to Harry
[1:44:10] Potter.
[1:44:13] But there's a in in the cultural sphere
[1:44:18] that's a a powerful genuine presence
[1:44:21] meaningful person. So the willing
[1:44:23] suspension of disbelief is like you as
[1:44:25] you pick up a Harry Potter book or go to
[1:44:27] a Harry Potter film, it's like you know
[1:44:29] that you uh you know that person doesn't
[1:44:32] really exist but you suspend the
[1:44:33] disbelief to enjoy the story. So um many
[1:44:38] of the difficulties that we have in life
[1:44:40] unlike the Buddha or an enlightened
[1:44:41] being is that when they suspend
[1:44:44] disbelief for the sake of a story they
[1:44:47] remember that they know that. So when
[1:44:49] the the Buddha does tell some once upon
[1:44:51] a time story I mean there are extremists
[1:44:53] who who say every single word of of the
[1:44:56] pi cannon or the northern you know the
[1:44:59] Mahayana teachings of Vajriana every
[1:45:01] single word the Buddha spoke is
[1:45:02] absolutely true and real.
[1:45:05] So you get stories where the Buddha says
[1:45:07] once upon a time there was a a partridge
[1:45:10] and an elephant and a monkey.
[1:45:13] And when he's describing how seniority
[1:45:16] in the SA is established, that's a story
[1:45:18] he tells.
[1:45:20] You know, there was a partridge, an
[1:45:22] elephant, and a monkey. They were
[1:45:23] friends, and they're kind of talking
[1:45:25] with each other in parley, you know, in
[1:45:28] the scripture. And they were trying to
[1:45:29] figure out who was born first. Yeah. Who
[1:45:32] who is who's the oldest? And uh and they
[1:45:37] [snorts] and uh the the the the uh the
[1:45:41] monkey first of all I think it goes that
[1:45:43] the monkey says um well um yeah I
[1:45:47] remember oh no the the elephant speaks
[1:45:49] first and says well you see this banyan
[1:45:50] tree you know I'm so old I can remember
[1:45:52] when I could walk over that banyan tree
[1:45:54] and it only tickled my belly as I walked
[1:45:56] over it and then the monkey say ah but
[1:46:00] uh I can remember when it was so small
[1:46:02] that I could jump over it. So, you know,
[1:46:04] I'm older than you are. And then the
[1:46:06] partry says, well, actually, I remember
[1:46:08] landing here after I had a meal and uh
[1:46:11] voiding a van seed. So, you know, I'm
[1:46:13] older than both of you. And so, they
[1:46:15] then paid respects to the partridge as
[1:46:17] being the elder. And so, this is how we
[1:46:19] should establish seniority in the SA.
[1:46:22] You know, the oldest is respected above
[1:46:24] those who come after. and that so that's
[1:46:26] a scriptural story but I don't think
[1:46:30] that there actually was a partridge and
[1:46:33] an elephant and a monkey who were
[1:46:35] talking with each other. It's a it's a
[1:46:37] just so story. [snorts] It's a it's a
[1:46:40] once upon a time fairy tale but the you
[1:46:42] know the Buddha tells it as a story. So
[1:46:45] but when he's telling that story it's an
[1:46:47] illustration of how why he wants to
[1:46:49] establish seniority in the SA like that
[1:46:51] but he knows it's a once upon a time
[1:46:54] thing. So, uh, when we're going into our
[1:46:59] everyday lives and we know, okay, uh,
[1:47:02] I'm watching a football match. I'm, uh,
[1:47:06] I'm cook I'm preparing a meal, I'm
[1:47:10] talking with my family, I'm I'm at a at
[1:47:13] a business meeting. Uh, okay. This is a
[1:47:16] fabricated reality. the rules of a
[1:47:18] football game, the rules of how you
[1:47:20] behave around a boardroom table, the
[1:47:22] rules of how you put a meal together and
[1:47:25] prepare things for the family, whatever
[1:47:26] it is we we might be doing or giving a
[1:47:28] dumber talk. Okay, this is a fabricated
[1:47:32] reality.
[1:47:33] It's a set of agreements that we have.
[1:47:35] It's done like this. This is what we
[1:47:37] call having food together and it's
[1:47:39] prepared like this. This is what we call
[1:47:40] a football game. People arrange
[1:47:42] themselves on this rectangle of grass
[1:47:44] and they run around with the ball
[1:47:46] because of this and that reason. There's
[1:47:48] things you do, things you don't do. Most
[1:47:50] of the people don't pick the ball up
[1:47:52] with their hands unless they're doing a
[1:47:54] throwin when it's okay. If they're on
[1:47:56] the pitch, then they can't pick the ball
[1:47:57] up with their hands. A set of
[1:47:59] conditioned behaviors.
[1:48:01] How you operate in a monastery,
[1:48:05] how you put on your robes, how uh you
[1:48:07] talk with with strangers, how you talk
[1:48:08] with friends. So the more that we can
[1:48:11] remember this is a set of conditioned
[1:48:13] behaviors there is nothing solid and
[1:48:16] absolute here we uh then we are oh this
[1:48:21] is just a set of conditions it's
[1:48:22] conventional truth we give it value we
[1:48:26] determine its value it should be done
[1:48:27] this way it shouldn't be done that way
[1:48:29] so the more that I would say someone
[1:48:32] like the the Lord Buddha or enlightened
[1:48:35] being they know all the time the mind
[1:48:37] knows all the time the degree to which a
[1:48:40] a convention or a condition is being
[1:48:41] used. So the Buddha used the conventions
[1:48:44] of the vinaya and wearing robes and
[1:48:46] talking a language. He knew this is a
[1:48:48] set of conventions, a set of agreements.
[1:48:50] There's nothing absolute or solid or
[1:48:53] completely real here. But these are
[1:48:55] useful conventions like the rules of a
[1:48:57] football game or the the way to to
[1:49:00] behave around a table over a meal or the
[1:49:02] way to look after a a dumb talk or a
[1:49:04] business meeting.
[1:49:06] [snorts] So that um there's a difference
[1:49:10] between using conventions with wisdom
[1:49:15] and and receiving the conventions other
[1:49:18] people are going by like talking about
[1:49:20] my sisters and the how they relate to me
[1:49:21] in the family. I mean they're very
[1:49:22] polite and and helpful and good people.
[1:49:25] Um but I'm not their teacher.
[1:49:28] So you're uh [clears throat] but when um
[1:49:32] you are being told you know this is the
[1:49:35] absolute truth or this is this is real
[1:49:37] this is solid this is uh this is
[1:49:39] important and you should buy into this
[1:49:41] you should be intimidated by this you
[1:49:43] should be excited by this you should say
[1:49:45] this is you should see this as being
[1:49:47] absolutely valuable then there's that
[1:49:50] the mindfulness and wisdom is that which
[1:49:52] recognizes no it can't be it's only a
[1:49:55] set of agreements
[1:49:57] um And like I said, if you know you're
[1:50:00] being lied to and or and someone is is
[1:50:04] um trying to persuade you of a
[1:50:06] particular position or something has
[1:50:08] value, you know, then you say, "Well,
[1:50:10] they believe in that. They take that to
[1:50:12] be true. I don't see it as true." And
[1:50:15] you're not trying to make yourself uh
[1:50:17] believe it. I I hope it's not too
[1:50:20] complicated what I'm saying, but rather
[1:50:23] so if we recognize that we are
[1:50:29] um we're using conventions in a skillful
[1:50:33] way, but without delusion about them
[1:50:36] being conventions. So you know, okay,
[1:50:38] this is how you how you behave in a in a
[1:50:41] business meeting. This is how you behave
[1:50:42] with a family. This is how you behave in
[1:50:43] a monastery. And it's not anything
[1:50:46] absolutely real and but this is
[1:50:50] appropriate to this situation this time
[1:50:51] this place and so on. And so that uh uh
[1:50:56] you
[1:50:58] uh the more that that you're able to
[1:50:59] remember that
[1:51:01] then the more you're able to work with
[1:51:04] the the way the world is the way people
[1:51:06] are around you and so I would say
[1:51:08] schizophrenia schizophrenia or mental
[1:51:12] illness and sort of mara's work that is
[1:51:17] the degree to which we we we buy into
[1:51:20] those conventions we make them into
[1:51:22] something absolutely completely real. We
[1:51:24] we give them value that they don't
[1:51:26] really have. We lose the perspective
[1:51:29] essentially. So wisdom, mindfulness and
[1:51:33] wisdom is sustaining the perspective. So
[1:51:35] the the Buddha would be the embodiment
[1:51:37] of of mindfulness and wisdom that would
[1:51:40] never lose that perspective. But then
[1:51:42] the skill is using the conventions of
[1:51:44] our life um and uh working with with
[1:51:49] other people and working in the world uh
[1:51:52] in ways that can help you to see more
[1:51:55] clearly and can help others to see more
[1:51:56] clearly.
[1:51:58] So when we're being pressured by the
[1:52:02] media or by our family or by our work
[1:52:04] colleagues into seeing things in a
[1:52:07] particular way without being
[1:52:08] disrespectful or aversive or intimidated
[1:52:11] say well that's the way this person or
[1:52:14] these people see these things that's
[1:52:15] their business. Uh I don't have to go
[1:52:17] along with it. I don't have to buy into
[1:52:19] that. I don't have to I don't have to
[1:52:20] believe in that. I don't have to to see
[1:52:22] it in in the same way.
[1:52:25] So I hope that's not confusing but uh
[1:52:28] >> thank you very much. Yeah,
[1:52:30] >> lot to think about. Thank you.
[1:52:32] >> Lot to think about well the time has
[1:52:34] gone past 4:00 so time to think about
[1:52:38] the convention of partying company. So
[1:52:41] let's call it to a close then.
[1:53:00] Thank you very much for good questions.
[1:53:02] [snorts]
[1:53:03] Go well. There'll be a as I said another
[1:53:06] couple of Sunday afternoon talks uh
[1:53:08] during this period and then I think the
[1:53:10] the last one will be I think the 25th of
[1:53:14] October. So couple more.