Transcript
[0:04] Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10%
[0:05] Happier Podcast. I'm your host Dan
[0:07] Harris. One of the worst feelings in my
[0:10] experience is when I lose my [ __ ] And
[0:14] uh it's even worse when I lose my [ __ ]
[0:16] unnecessarily, the humiliating process
[0:19] of looking back at that uh and then
[0:21] having to make amends, etc., etc. So,
[0:23] what can you do in advance to prevent
[0:27] these moments from happening? That's
[0:29] what we're going to talk about today
[0:31] with my guest Dr. Mark Brackett who is
[0:33] the founding director of the Yale Center
[0:35] for Emotional Intelligence and the
[0:37] author of several books including his
[0:39] latest Dealing with Feeling. You may
[0:41] remember that I had uh Dr. Brackett on
[0:43] the show a few months ago. You guys love
[0:45] that conversation so much that we're
[0:48] bringing him back.
[0:49] >> Dr. Bracket, welcome back to the show.
[0:51] >> It's nice to be back again.
[0:52] >> You're a fan favorite.
[0:53] >> I like and I like this in person one.
[0:55] >> Yes, it's so much is so much better in
[0:57] person. It's more interesting.
[0:58] >> I'm really trying to move this show to
[1:01] in person, which involves a lot of
[1:03] commuting for me, but it's worth it.
[1:05] >> It is.
[1:06] >> Let's just do a a broad definition of
[1:09] emotion regulation. You're you have
[1:12] sometimes been called the feelings
[1:13] master, which I love. So, given that
[1:16] you're the feelings master, like what
[1:18] does emotion regulation actually mean?
[1:20] >> Okay, maybe we should talk about what
[1:21] it's not. How about that?
[1:22] >> Sure.
[1:23] >> So, it's not denying your emotions. It's
[1:27] not ignoring your emotions. It's not
[1:29] suppressing your emotions, which is what
[1:31] a lot of people think it is. I did a
[1:33] talk for lawyers recently. They're like,
[1:34] "Oh, so like we just like we just like
[1:36] leave our feelings at the door." I'm
[1:37] like,
[1:39] [laughter] like I wish that were
[1:40] biologically possible. You know,
[1:42] teachers say that too. I just, you know,
[1:44] I have my life is so chaotic as a
[1:45] teacher. I just leave my emotions at the
[1:46] door. I'm like, they're gonna pop up.
[1:49] So, it's not about denying your
[1:51] emotional life at the broadest level.
[1:53] It's about using your emotions wisely to
[1:56] achieve what you want out of your life,
[1:58] which is a broad definition.
[2:00] >> So emotion regulation properly
[2:02] understood is using your emotions so
[2:05] that you can achieve what you want in
[2:06] your life.
[2:07] >> Correct?
[2:08] >> So emotions are going to happen anyway.
[2:10] So you might as well harness them to get
[2:12] you to your goal.
[2:13] >> Correct. I did a speech for a bunch of
[2:15] families recently and um I asked them to
[2:19] do an exercise uh which I had the
[2:22] parents reflect on uh their child like
[2:25] live vicariously through your child who
[2:27] is a teenager right now just close your
[2:28] eyes and for two minutes we're going to
[2:30] it's the morning how you feeling it's
[2:33] now it's you're walking into school how
[2:34] are you feeling class one class 2 class
[2:36] 3 class 4 and then the end of the day
[2:40] and I said how many of you saw more
[2:42] unpleasant feelings everybody raised
[2:44] their hand. And so I said, "Well, let's
[2:47] talk about that. You know, why is that
[2:49] the case?" And so one dad who had a big
[2:51] personality, he um he looks at me, he's
[2:54] like, "You know, Mark, hasn't it always
[2:55] been that way? Hasn't everybody always
[2:57] felt like shitty in school and bored and
[2:59] tired and overwhelmed and stressed?" And
[3:01] I said, "Maybe, but like is that what we
[3:05] want for kids?" Like, is that a recipe
[3:08] for creativity, innovation?
[3:10] You know, and so I think that people
[3:12] often times think that emotions are
[3:14] emotions. You have them, you experience
[3:16] them, but there's nothing you can do
[3:18] with them. And I'm saying that is the
[3:21] opposite of what emotional intelligence
[3:23] and emotion regulation is. Emotion
[3:25] regulation is saying here's a feeling I
[3:28] can see is this helpful or unhelpful for
[3:30] what I want to achieve and if it's not
[3:32] helpful, I can shift it. Okay. So,
[3:35] there's a lot here and this is such a
[3:37] huge topic. We're not going to be able
[3:39] to cover all the pieces. I do want to
[3:41] say that if people want to learn more,
[3:42] they can also obviously read your books
[3:45] >> or go back and watch uh or listen to the
[3:48] previous episode when you recorded.
[3:49] Okay. But today specifically, we're
[3:51] going to talk about what I think is
[3:53] called proactive regulation. What you
[3:55] can do in advance
[3:56] >> to like when you know you've got a
[3:58] potentially triggering situation, what
[4:00] you can do in advance to set yourself up
[4:02] for success.
[4:03] >> Correct. I think most people again when
[4:05] they think about emotion regulation
[4:07] because some people obviously think
[4:09] about it. I think the mindset is like
[4:10] self-control. I'm going to control
[4:12] myself. You know, I'm going to like deal
[4:15] with this in the moment. And what I want
[4:17] to encourage people to think about is
[4:20] how can I be better prepared for the
[4:22] moment that's probably going to happen
[4:23] anyway? Like I don't know about you, I
[4:25] travel a lot and so my uh husband is
[4:29] home sometimes and I get back from this
[4:31] long trip and I'm irritable. I am tired
[4:35] and I don't feel like actually, you
[4:37] know, in that moment being in a
[4:38] relationship. [laughter]
[4:40] And then it's like, you know, maybe we
[4:42] had plans or maybe there was something
[4:43] that needed to get done or whatever it
[4:44] is. And I before I walk into my house, I
[4:48] like I grab the doororknob, take a deep
[4:51] breath, and I'm like, "Okay, Mark, you
[4:53] are not in the mood for anything right
[4:54] now." Yes, that's true. You are not.
[4:57] You're tired. You're irritable. Whatever
[4:58] it is, this person is going to want to
[5:00] like know how your trip went. like are
[5:02] we going out for dinner tonight or
[5:03] whatever the heck it is. And so how am I
[5:06] going to meet that in a way that's not
[5:07] going to show off the worst version of
[5:10] myself because I have a choice. I can
[5:12] come in and be like, you know, don't
[5:14] talk to me. I hate you right now. I hate
[5:16] everybody right now. I don't want to,
[5:17] you know, I want to go to bed and I
[5:18] don't want to talk to anybody. Like
[5:19] that's not great for my relationship. So
[5:21] how can I be the best version of myself
[5:24] in those moments? And that's having a
[5:26] bit more of pausing and prep time. And
[5:29] for you that pausing and prep time is
[5:31] just hand on the doororknob.
[5:32] >> It's a reminder. So I have like little
[5:35] uh signals for myself. It's before I
[5:37] pick up a call. If that's going to be
[5:39] like a a work call, it's before I um
[5:43] come home, before I open the door to my
[5:45] house. Um it could be, you know, even um
[5:50] like today coming into this podcast, I
[5:52] was in a taxi. It was running late. I'm
[5:53] like, what's going on here? Like come
[5:55] on, let's move it. I get into the
[5:57] elevator. I
[5:59] you know, I have to check in. And then
[6:01] right before the person came out to
[6:02] greet me, I took a deep breath and I'm
[6:04] like, "Okay, Mark, how do you want to
[6:07] show up today?" It's just a habit. The
[6:09] concept you've come back to a couple
[6:11] times is uh being your best self, and I
[6:15] say this all the time on the show. Uh I
[6:18] said it in an interview just yesterday.
[6:21] One of the recurring themes in hosting
[6:23] the show for more than 10 years is that
[6:26] ideas that I previously dismissed as
[6:30] psycho babble [ __ ] are actually
[6:32] really helpful. So these can include uh
[6:35] your inner child or uh going to your
[6:37] happy place or being in the present
[6:39] moment. All these like sort of apex
[6:42] predator spiritual psychological uh
[6:45] cliches. They're actually there's
[6:47] something to them and that is true with
[6:49] this idea of being your best self,
[6:51] >> you know, because everybody Oprah talks
[6:53] about it, Michelle Obama talks about it,
[6:54] everybody talks about like be your best.
[6:57] It can be um superficial. Not that
[7:01] they're I think they're thinking about
[7:02] it in a very strategic way. I apply it
[7:05] specifically to regulation and I think
[7:07] that matters. And so in moments when you
[7:11] know, you call me the feelings master.
[7:13] So just a quick story about that. So my
[7:15] very first day or class I taught at Yale
[7:18] um the one of the students in my class
[7:20] it was a big class had like 500 students
[7:23] and he wrote for the the Yale Daily News
[7:25] and he wrote this article the feelings
[7:28] master and it was a little embarrassing
[7:30] like brand new on campus it's like other
[7:33] colleagues like what are you going to
[7:34] think of me and then I I just read the
[7:37] article I thought it was a nicely
[7:38] written article about my course and I I
[7:41] was like you know what Mark you are the
[7:43] freaking feelings bastard
[7:44] >> [laughter]
[7:45] >> like live into it, buddy. You know, like
[7:48] get your posture like the feel, you
[7:50] know, like at a place like Yale, you get
[7:52] students who can be sometimes
[7:53] challenging, you know, like oftenimes
[7:55] challenging. I love my students for the
[7:58] most part. They're bright students who
[7:59] are motivated, inspiring, but once in a
[8:02] while I get one that can trigger me, you
[8:04] know, like the one that says something
[8:05] like, you know, Professor Bracket, I've
[8:07] got a question, but you know, I'm not
[8:08] really sure you'll know the answer,
[8:10] right? And I'm like, okay, this is going
[8:13] to be a good one. And so in those
[8:15] moments there's Mark like the Jersey boy
[8:18] who wants to like punch the kid in
[8:20] [laughter] the face and then there's
[8:22] Mark the Felix master.
[8:24] >> Right. Right.
[8:24] >> And so like it is a place to go for
[8:27] inspiration. It is a place to go to
[8:29] shift your values. It is a place to go
[8:31] to have better solutions.
[8:33] >> And so we can all have this version of
[8:37] ourselves. Um I I'll give you mine. Um
[8:39] I've worked for a long time with this
[8:41] executive coach. His name is Jerry
[8:43] Colona. He's great. He's been on the
[8:44] show many times. And with him, I had
[8:48] mentioned that I have these two like
[8:50] demons I wrestle with in my mind that I
[8:52] had given names to. One is Robert, named
[8:55] after my grandfather, who was a very
[8:56] angry dude. And that was kind of just
[8:58] like the personification of my penchant
[9:01] for anger. And the other was Arthur, who
[9:03] was a great-grandfather of mine, who I
[9:05] never met, who was a crook, uh who was
[9:06] the personification of my like sort of
[9:09] hustler, ambitious, greedy energy. And
[9:12] he kept saying, "But bro, there's a
[9:15] third character you're overlooking." Uh,
[9:17] he called him teacher Dan, like your
[9:20] capacity to help people with their
[9:22] problems. Great.
[9:23] >> And that is my feelings master. When I'm
[9:26] Yeah. When I want to psych myself up to
[9:28] be the best version of myself, that's
[9:29] what I'm trying to inhabit.
[9:31] >> And that version of yourself probably
[9:32] has attributes.
[9:35] >> Yes.
[9:36] >> And that's what I want people to think
[9:37] about. what are the attributes
[9:39] >> of your, you know, self-help guru, you
[9:43] know, which is yourself in this moment.
[9:45] And it works. It just works really. I
[9:47] mean, I go, I've taught this now for 20
[9:48] years to millions of people and people
[9:52] really find it helpful because it's like
[9:55] a shortcut to, you know, you there's a
[9:57] lot going on when you're dealing with
[9:59] your feelings. But if you can break it
[10:00] into a simple process of a for the
[10:05] proactive piece that we're talking about
[10:06] today, anticipatory. So I can pretty
[10:09] much tell when I'm going into a
[10:12] situation like I was giving a speech in
[10:14] a red state. Now I say that because my
[10:16] work is now being, you know, banned in
[10:19] some red states.
[10:20] >> Really?
[10:20] >> Yes. There is antisocial emotional
[10:22] learning legislation trying to be
[10:24] passed. Really?
[10:25] >> Yeah. So the idea is we should just go
[10:27] right for unrestrained rage.
[10:30] >> It's, you know, this the opposite too.
[10:32] It's like, oh, teaching kids how to
[10:34] regulate is actually like a form of
[10:36] fragility, which makes no sense. So
[10:39] there's a lot of push back. Um, I was
[10:41] giving a speech um to about 500
[10:44] superintendent and I was warned that the
[10:47] person who was the head of the whole
[10:48] union was like really against this work.
[10:52] So I'm going I'm in the hotel, right? I
[10:54] go down for breakfast like I'm doing the
[10:56] 9:00 a.m. opening keynote. I don't even
[10:57] know why I'm invited to this freaking
[10:59] place and all of a sudden I was becoming
[11:01] the self-sabotur. Like this is
[11:03] ridiculous. You're too advanced in your
[11:05] career for this. Why you doing this to
[11:06] yourself? I mean I they're going to
[11:07] throw tomatoes at you. You know I was
[11:09] just going down the rabbit hole of
[11:11] negativity. And then you know I'm like
[11:13] Mark where's the feelings master? Like
[11:16] this is not going to be helpful. like
[11:18] you know that getting on stage with that
[11:20] mishagus in your head is just not going
[11:23] to be good. So like okay, how do I want
[11:28] to be seen? How do I want to be talked
[11:30] about? How do I want to be experienced
[11:31] on that stage? It's like oh okay. I'm
[11:34] like I'm like I'm I'm one of the world's
[11:36] leading experts. Like I know this [ __ ]
[11:38] better than anybody else, you know? I'm
[11:40] going to I'm going to I have the
[11:42] opportunity to convince 500
[11:44] superintendents who reach millions of
[11:45] kids to learn the science of emotion
[11:48] regulation to improve learning and
[11:51] improve teacher retention. This is an
[11:53] opportunity. Do you follow? Like it's
[11:55] just a complete reframing or
[11:57] reappraisal.
[11:57] >> Yes.
[11:58] >> But the best self creating that image of
[12:01] myself like sitting at breakfast being
[12:03] like completely negative like okay we're
[12:06] going to put that on pause. We're going
[12:08] to think 15, 20 minutes ahead of time.
[12:10] I'm on that stage. What do I want to
[12:13] look like? You know, how do I want to
[12:14] sound? Etc.
[12:16] >> There are so many times in my life, and
[12:17] I suspect this is true for you, where
[12:19] you just need a little reset, some
[12:21] little hack to get you out of a thought
[12:23] spiral or to help you fall back to sleep
[12:26] when you wake up at 3:00 in the morning
[12:27] or help you recover from some sort of
[12:29] temper tantrum. You know what I'm
[12:31] talking about. Which brings me uh to a
[12:34] little meditation challenge we're
[12:36] launching over on my app 10% with Dan
[12:38] Harris. Starting today, September 21st,
[12:41] we're kicking off a 5-day meditation
[12:43] challenge. It's called Reset, and it's
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[12:47] when life throws you for a loop, which
[12:49] is inevitable in all of our lives. This
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[12:53] Winston, who's a really legendary and
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[12:59] teacher. And crucially, she has crafted
[13:02] each daily practice to be something you
[13:04] can actually do in a moment of suffering
[13:06] when you're struggling in some way,
[13:08] large or small. These practices can
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[13:17] Dan Harris app. You can sign up now at
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[13:21] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.
[13:23] If I could wake up tomorrow and be
[13:25] better at one thing, it would be having
[13:29] uh a calmer, less anxious nervous system
[13:32] so that I could enjoy my life more. I
[13:35] have made massive amounts of progress in
[13:37] this regard in the past 20 years as a
[13:40] result of meditation and therapy and
[13:42] getting better at tending to my
[13:44] interpersonal relationships. But it's
[13:48] really a neverending process. Hence the
[13:50] name of the show, 10% happier. As I
[13:52] often argue, the 10% compounds annually.
[13:55] Better is a feeling defined by you. And
[13:57] for better help, it's a better health
[14:00] therapist who really gets you. It's a
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[14:03] with thousands of therapists and
[14:06] millions of members in over a 100
[14:07] countries. It's progress and it's also
[14:10] getting better at regulating your
[14:12] nervous system or whatever is important
[14:13] to you. And I know that having a
[14:14] therapist has been very helpful to me in
[14:17] this regard. Sign up and get 10% off at
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[14:21] That's betterhp.com/happier.
[14:25] One of the through lines here is that
[14:26] you're talking to yourself.
[14:28] >> Yeah, I do. I'm maybe I'm just an erotic
[14:30] guy. I do a lot of selft talk.
[14:31] [laughter]
[14:32] >> But there's there's um from what I've
[14:34] seen quite a bit of evidence to support
[14:38] the right kind of selft talk. Correct.
[14:39] Because we're doing the wrong kind of
[14:41] selft talk all the time. I'm calling
[14:43] myself a schmuck or an [ __ ] all the
[14:45] time. Let's say constructive selft talk
[14:48] is you know you I'm sure you're familiar
[14:50] with Ethan Cross's work at at the
[14:52] University of Michigan. There's a lot of
[14:54] evidence to show that we can talk
[14:55] ourselves into being the best version of
[14:58] ourselves.
[14:58] >> Exactly. Actually um we're friends and
[15:01] we talk a lot about this together. Um
[15:04] 100% right. And he you know he studies
[15:06] something called distance selft talk
[15:07] which is a really helpful technique
[15:09] which is Mark you got this. you you
[15:12] literally talk to yourself as you as if
[15:14] you would talk to a friend. And there
[15:16] are lots of these tricks in terms of
[15:18] moving out of the self-sabotur, you
[15:21] know, into the person who is going to
[15:23] achieve their goals. But I think that's
[15:26] the key here, which is that the big
[15:29] piece of this is the awareness. Like I
[15:35] was self-aware to know that I was really
[15:38] negative and I was self-aware enough to
[15:41] know that like that wasn't going to be
[15:43] good for my presentation. I don't want
[15:45] to show up, you know, in fear or anxiety
[15:48] or kind of like anticipating negativity.
[15:50] Like I'm the one in charge here. I'm the
[15:52] one standing on stage. All right. What's
[15:54] it going to be like? What do what do you
[15:55] want to make out of this? And how do you
[15:57] and how does that frame the way and
[15:59] communicate to the audience? And that's
[16:01] like communicating to my husband or your
[16:04] wife or your kids or your colleague at
[16:06] work. It's the same thing. I do the same
[16:08] thing at work, you know. Um sometimes if
[16:11] I know we're going to have like a tough
[16:12] meeting about a grant or something like
[16:14] that, I'm like, "Okay, the news is not
[16:16] great. We didn't get the grant." I can
[16:18] go in as Mark's true self and be like,
[16:22] "I can't take it anymore. This is
[16:24] [ __ ] We've read all these grants
[16:25] and nobody understands our work and this
[16:27] is not going to I don't know what to
[16:28] do." and then my team is like you know
[16:30] the diarrhea they're like looking for
[16:32] another job right like how is that
[16:34] helpful for like the culture and climate
[16:36] of my team or I can go in and say all
[16:41] right I can prepare in advance say okay
[16:43] Mark how do you want to show up and how
[16:46] do you want to manage your
[16:46] disappointment and frustration but also
[16:49] let people know that this is an
[16:52] opportunity to rethink and grow and that
[16:56] just automatically like brain goes goes
[16:58] in a different direction and I walk in
[17:00] there, same news saying, "Listen, you
[17:05] know, it's really disappointing. I
[17:06] really thought we were going to get this
[17:08] grant and I feel terrible that we didn't
[17:11] get it." And so, I don't want to focus
[17:13] on why we didn't get it. I want to focus
[17:15] on what's next. So, let's think together
[17:17] about let's look at the feedback and
[17:20] let's come up with our best plan of
[17:21] action so that we can have a better
[17:23] chance the next time. I got your back.
[17:25] Let's do it. We can do this. let's just
[17:27] put on our critical thinking hat. And
[17:28] then all of a sudden, people feel like I
[17:30] care about them. They're inspired to
[17:32] really work hard as opposed to feel
[17:34] like, you know, there's no future.
[17:36] >> It's interesting you use the phrase true
[17:38] self. I don't want to show up as my true
[17:40] self. It would have been a negative
[17:41] Nancy. But there I don't think there is
[17:42] a true self. All self isual.
[17:46] >> It is. But we have, you know, like a big
[17:50] part of my work, this is more recent
[17:52] research, is about non-judgmental kind
[17:55] of actions and and thought processes.
[17:58] Um, like we're just taught to be
[18:02] completely selfjudgmental and judgmental
[18:05] of others. Like just you're born and you
[18:07] just become like biased and judgmental.
[18:10] And so
[18:12] unfortunately, you know, my true self
[18:15] sometimes is like, you know, [laughter]
[18:19] just quick aside. So I was on this other
[18:22] podcast recently and a friend of mine
[18:25] from childhood uh reached out to me.
[18:27] She's like, I you know, we haven't seen
[18:28] each other in 45 years. I'm like, I
[18:31] know. And and then I had this memory of
[18:33] her, we were like teenagers, and we were
[18:35] going to go into business, which is this
[18:38] is the story. So it was in the Jersey
[18:39] Shore and our business was going to be
[18:41] that we were going to ask people to pay
[18:43] us for us to tell them what we really
[18:46] thought about them. [laughter]
[18:49] So like like you know like if if you
[18:52] like you know I walk in the park with my
[18:54] dogs in the morning I'm looking at all
[18:55] these people like you know like that's a
[18:57] whack this what's this you know like
[18:58] we're we're pretty much criticizing you
[19:01] know a lot. So point is my true self
[19:05] might be, you know, like you got to be
[19:08] freaking kidding me, Dan. Like are you
[19:10] really whatever it is, you know, with my
[19:12] husband, with my friends, family, and
[19:14] but that's your maybe your true self,
[19:16] your authentic self. But then, okay, is
[19:20] that the self that's going to preserve
[19:22] my relationship? Is that the self that
[19:24] is going to help motivate my team? No.
[19:27] So sometimes your true self needs to be
[19:29] suppressed a little bit so the best
[19:31] version of yourself comes out.
[19:33] >> But I'm arguing and you're the feelings
[19:35] master so how dare I argue with you. But
[19:37] I'm arguing that true is a misnomer
[19:40] because that's just a version of
[19:41] yourself and the best version of
[19:43] yourself is no less true.
[19:45] >> Well and maybe like my uncle who is my
[19:47] hero in life would say that everybody in
[19:49] every moment is doing the best they can.
[19:51] >> Yes. And so in I'm like in the moment my
[19:54] true self is just whatever is coming out
[19:56] like I'm call it authentic self call it
[19:59] momentary self.
[20:00] >> What about reflexive self?
[20:02] >> Reflexive self. Sure.
[20:03] >> It's just it's just your reaction
[20:05] >> your automatic. Yes. That's fine. Which
[20:07] often times is not helpful?
[20:10] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[20:11] >> Like most of the time.
[20:12] >> Yeah. That's my experience.
[20:14] >> Yeah. So that's because we're not
[20:16] trained to take the meta moment to step
[20:19] back, take a breath, pause, think about
[20:22] the consequences, think about the
[20:24] outcome we want. And if we do that, then
[20:27] sometimes we got to put that reflexive
[20:29] self on hold and be our best selves.
[20:34] >> Okay. So, you just used this phrase meta
[20:36] moment to uh and I think this is crucial
[20:39] and I believe you've got a five-step
[20:41] process that would allow us to achieve a
[20:44] meta moment. In other words,
[20:45] >> this gets us back to proactive
[20:47] regulation. What can we do in advance so
[20:49] that we have the ability to pause and
[20:52] not be reactive? Can we walk through
[20:55] what these steps are?
[20:56] >> First, I want to acknowledge my
[20:57] colleague Robin Stern who is uh my
[21:00] co-creator of this concept. Uh we've
[21:03] gosh I'm now I'm having all these
[21:05] memories today. So Robin's late husband
[21:08] was um a great guy. Uh, but one he was
[21:12] this like big Italian guy who was like
[21:15] very reactive and you know Robin and I
[21:17] were the type that we'd work together
[21:18] late at night and we'd be on back in the
[21:20] day Skype and she'd be walking around
[21:22] her house on Skype with and her husband
[21:24] would be hearing me like let's think
[21:25] about how we want to call this best self
[21:27] and let's think about this and and he
[21:29] would like like lit if I have to hear
[21:32] about this effing best self. [laughter]
[21:34] >> You can say [ __ ] on the show by the way.
[21:36] You don't have to censor yourself.
[21:37] >> Thank you. And so not everybody wants to
[21:40] learn this. By the way,
[21:41] >> people listening to this show wantanna
[21:43] want want to learn it. Absolutely. I
[21:44] agree. There are a lot of people don't
[21:46] want to learn.
[21:46] >> This is like I'm gonna just be my I had
[21:48] actually somebody once say to me, "My
[21:50] best self tells someone to go [ __ ]
[21:51] themselves."
[21:52] >> Oh, okay. Well, this is a key question.
[21:54] So, this is You're not pointing just to
[21:57] resistance to emotion regulation like
[21:59] we're seeing in some of the red states.
[22:01] You're just pointing, I think, to the
[22:03] fact that a lot of people have, I think,
[22:06] a justifiable concern that their best
[22:09] self is going to make them into a
[22:11] punching bag, a doormat, a paluca.
[22:13] >> Not cool. And that's something that's
[22:15] important to just talk about up front.
[22:18] Your best self should not be a doormat.
[22:20] Your best self should not be gaslighted.
[22:22] Your best self is the self that will
[22:26] help you preserve your dignity and also
[22:30] the other person's dignity. And I think
[22:31] that's a big piece of it. So if you are
[22:34] in a relationship where you are being
[22:37] gaslighted and like say your husband,
[22:40] wife or whatever is saying like gosh
[22:41] mark you you are so sensitive and then
[22:45] you're like maybe I am too sensitive.
[22:46] Maybe I shouldn't be you know speaking
[22:48] my voice. No you're an [ __ ]
[22:52] >> [laughter]
[22:54] >> like my best self is like I'm going to
[22:56] tell you how you know what's going on
[22:58] here and either you're going to ship up
[22:59] or I'm going to ship out. So I think the
[23:01] best self is not always kind and loving.
[23:04] The best self sometimes is very strong
[23:06] and assertive.
[23:06] >> Yes. Well although I would argue coming
[23:08] as I do out of the Buddhist tradition
[23:11] they talk about fierce compassion. So
[23:13] you can actually be loving but still
[23:15] fierce. There's a great uh story of I
[23:19] believe it was Sharon Salsberg the
[23:20] legendary meditation teacher was in
[23:22] India and she was just learning about
[23:23] Buddhism and she
[23:25] >> was sitting with all of these monks who
[23:27] were telling talking about compassion
[23:29] and she said well what do I do if I go
[23:30] outside and somebody tries to mug me and
[23:32] one of the teachers said well you
[23:33] compassionately whack them with your
[23:35] umbrella.
[23:35] >> Exactly. It's funny I was we're making a
[23:38] film about the work I do in schools and
[23:40] I was interviewing someone from a very
[23:42] conservative think tank in DC recently.
[23:45] He's like, "The problem I have with your
[23:46] work, you know, is that if my kid is
[23:49] being bullied at school, you're telling
[23:51] them that you should just talk about
[23:53] their feelings." And then I'm like, "No,
[23:55] I I didn't write that." He's like, "I'm
[23:56] going to tell my kid to punch the kid in
[23:58] the face." [laughter]
[23:59] I said, "Well, maybe there's some
[24:00] strateg."
[24:04] But I do agree. I'm a martial artist.
[24:07] Like strike one, strike two, strike
[24:09] three, you know, like I got to protect
[24:11] myself. This is not cool. So, I'm not
[24:13] saying that being assertive or even
[24:16] sometimes aggressive is bad. I'm saying
[24:18] let's not create a world where that's
[24:20] the automatic response to everything,
[24:22] which is what it feels like right now.
[24:24] >> Before we get to the five-step process,
[24:26] how did it go with the red state
[24:27] superintendent?
[24:28] >> Amazing. Nobody Amazing.
[24:30] >> Okay, great.
[24:31] >> Yep. Nobody Nobody
[24:32] >> feelings master. This is amazing.
[24:34] >> I mean, I just I I decided like they're
[24:36] not going to want to hear my whole
[24:38] stick. They're gonna I'm gonna stick to
[24:39] the science. I'm going to stick to the
[24:41] outcomes. Like, how many of you in the
[24:43] room would love for your teachers to be
[24:45] less burnt out? Yes. How many of you
[24:48] would like them to be better able to
[24:50] manage stress? Yes. You know, how many
[24:53] of you would like the students in your
[24:55] classrooms to be more focused and
[24:57] attentive and better learners? Yes. I'm
[25:00] like, well, that's why I'm here today
[25:01] instead of like, let's get into a
[25:03] circle, hold hands, and sing kumbaya,
[25:06] which is what people sometimes think the
[25:07] work that we do is
[25:08] >> clearly. Yeah. which is not at all what
[25:10] it is,
[25:10] >> right? No, it's just a that's a it's a
[25:12] warping.
[25:13] >> Yeah.
[25:14] >> A caricature. All right. So, back to the
[25:16] five steps to to prepare ourselves.
[25:19] >> I'm a little bit of a divergent thinker.
[25:21] >> No, go. Nonlinearity is fine.
[25:23] >> All right. Good. But let's I I do think
[25:25] that it's a good idea to like All right,
[25:26] let's bang this out. So, step one, sense
[25:30] >> sense.
[25:31] >> The sense the shift the shift in your
[25:34] mind. This is meditation. This is
[25:36] mindfulness. It's awareness of Mark,
[25:40] you're getting negative here. Mark, your
[25:42] heart is racing. Mark, you're clenching
[25:45] your fists. Mark, you're gritting your
[25:46] teeth. It's just a a a tremendous amount
[25:49] of self-awareness around that. You
[25:52] anticipate or you are in the moment
[25:55] experiencing a shift in your feelings.
[25:59] >> So, just notice, okay, I'm things are
[26:02] going along fine. I'm in a conversation
[26:04] with my wife or my child or my a
[26:06] colleague and all of a sudden big blast
[26:08] of anger. Can you catch it?
[26:09] >> Yes. Can you catch it? And you might not
[26:11] even know what the feeling is to be
[26:13] frank. You just know that there's
[26:14] something something has happened.
[26:15] Something in the environment in my
[26:17] thought process or in the external world
[26:19] around me has um created a shift. That's
[26:22] step one. Now the the important piece of
[26:25] that is that typically for many of us,
[26:28] we revert to automatic habitual
[26:31] reactions.
[26:33] Right? I trigger me, I go for the
[26:35] jugular, you know, I'm going to just
[26:37] true self, reflexive self just comes out
[26:40] without any thought because there's no
[26:42] real access to reflection in that
[26:45] moment. You're in survival mode. And
[26:47] that's where we have to be really
[26:49] skilled at training ourselves. This is
[26:51] why being proactive is so much better
[26:56] because in the moment when someone tells
[26:59] me to go [ __ ] myself now that I have
[27:01] permission to say the word I'm going to
[27:03] be like no no no you go [ __ ] yourself
[27:04] right [laughter]
[27:06] cuz that's just it's like I don't know I
[27:08] can't think I'm just like you've
[27:10] attacked me no you go it's it's going to
[27:12] be this back and forth and we're going
[27:13] to get escalated that's the automatic
[27:15] habitual
[27:17] reflexive response doesn't really get
[27:19] you far in many instances is. So the
[27:22] meta moment says no no no no no step two
[27:26] breathe step back say something to
[27:29] yourself like mark don't say it mark you
[27:32] got this whatever you need to just build
[27:35] the space because in that space is where
[27:38] the magic happens and what we have to do
[27:41] is help people just build that re
[27:43] reprogram rethink their habits as soon
[27:47] as you get the urge actually I'm going
[27:49] to just can I give you a really good
[27:50] example of
[27:51] So, I was telling you and I have this
[27:53] husband, his name is Oasio. He is a
[27:55] filmmaker and he literally, we were
[27:56] talking the other night and um he's on
[27:59] this set making a movie and he wants uh
[28:03] a second camera for this particular
[28:06] scene and that's out of our budget like
[28:08] you know and he's pissed because he
[28:10] knows that the movie well it's going to
[28:12] make a difference for the visuals and he
[28:13] that's his job. He's in charge of he's a
[28:15] cinematographer. So,
[28:18] in the moment, he was like, "I want to
[28:20] just start like ripping this guy to
[28:21] shreds. You're you're you're a producer.
[28:23] You don't know what the hell you're
[28:24] talking about. I'm the creative guy.
[28:25] That's why you hired me. Like, this is
[28:27] what we need." And he's like, he
[28:28] realized thanks to his significant
[28:32] other. Like, that response would not be
[28:34] great. So, I said, "What did you do?" He
[28:36] goes, "I just took a breath. I I left
[28:40] the situation. I took a five minute walk
[28:44] and I just planned how do I want to show
[28:46] up to be the most convincing
[28:47] cinematographer in the history of film
[28:49] making to let this guy know how valuable
[28:53] this you know camera will be for the
[28:55] shot that I think will make the movie
[28:56] the movie and he got the camera
[29:00] >> great
[29:01] >> and he said you know 10 years ago he
[29:02] probably would have just been like go f
[29:04] yourself and like you're a [ __ ] but
[29:06] instead he took his meta moment and he's
[29:08] like I'm going to build some space I'm
[29:10] not going to respond right now cuz right
[29:11] now I don't know what to say. I don't
[29:12] know what to do. I feel like I just want
[29:14] to attack. Instead, I'm going to take
[29:16] that walk and I'm going to give myself
[29:18] the space to problem solve and be
[29:20] creative. The point is that you we're
[29:23] going to always have activations in our
[29:26] lives. There's no way around it. This is
[29:28] life. I'm an acute observer of the human
[29:31] condition. I'm a psychologist. So, like
[29:32] everywhere I go, I'm just like staring
[29:34] at people because [laughter] I'm like,
[29:35] "Wow, that was a really interesting
[29:37] response." You know, when you're
[29:38] checking into hotels, I just or at the
[29:40] airports, it's the best.
[29:41] >> Yes.
[29:42] >> The best.
[29:43] >> And I just I love watching how people
[29:44] just like triggered,
[29:46] >> you know, this airline sucks. It's like,
[29:49] okay, whatever. But um and so step two
[29:53] is called um stop. So, we've gone from
[29:58] we sense
[29:59] >> and then we just put on the stop button,
[30:01] the pause button.
[30:03] That might be, like I said, pinching
[30:05] yourself, taking a deep breath, saying,
[30:08] "Dan, I need a minute. I'm sorry. I'm
[30:10] just I just need a minute." And they
[30:12] leave the room and I come back. Whatever
[30:14] it might be, it's your whatever you need
[30:16] for you. But it really is like you have
[30:18] to have the discipline to shut up
[30:22] and not say what you feel like saying in
[30:24] the moment or do, you know, and that, by
[30:27] the way, is um also about behavior. So,
[30:33] another little tangent, but relevant
[30:35] because I do a lot of public speaking. I
[30:38] uh and I get invited out for dinners. I
[30:40] don't like it because it's just I'm an
[30:42] introvert and I prefer I just don't like
[30:44] to have to present, present, and
[30:46] socialize. You know, if it's I might go,
[30:49] but point is that I noticed that people
[30:54] expect me or maybe I'm just making this
[30:56] up to be like the entertainer like I'm
[30:59] the guest of honor for the presentation.
[31:01] So they want to like they want to ask me
[31:03] questions and blah blah blah. And I
[31:06] noticed that I I I actually self
[31:09] diagnosed myself with like a social
[31:11] anxiety eating problem.
[31:13] >> That sounds familiar.
[31:14] >> Yeah. And I just started eating way too
[31:16] much at these meals so I would keep my
[31:18] mouth busy.
[31:19] >> Yes. Yes.
[31:19] >> And then I go back to my hotel room
[31:22] >> and I'd feel like [ __ ]
[31:23] >> Yeah.
[31:24] >> And I just said, Mark, like this is like
[31:25] you have you're like a 50some year old
[31:28] man who is like a leader in the field of
[31:29] emotional intelligence. It's like you
[31:31] got to work on this. This is not the
[31:33] self that you aspired to be. So, I built
[31:36] out my little routine. And it was that
[31:40] no matter what, I I knew I could
[31:43] anticipate getting we're talking
[31:44] proactive here. I would anticipate that
[31:46] I'm going to be anxious at the meal
[31:48] because I'm going to have to like talk
[31:49] all night and it's not my cup of tea.
[31:51] And I would say, "Mark, you can actually
[31:54] ask good questions of other people.
[31:57] Mark, you can observe the food and not
[32:00] eat the food. Mark, how do you want to
[32:03] feel at the end of the night when you go
[32:05] back to your room before you go to bed?
[32:07] Do you want to feel bloated and kind of
[32:09] like annoyed with yourself or do you
[32:12] want to feel like you got this, you made
[32:14] it through the night, and you didn't
[32:15] have to eat your feelings? It radically
[32:16] transformed like my experiences because
[32:19] I just I I set myself up for success. I
[32:22] have my go-to strategy. when I notice
[32:24] myself getting anxious, I stop talking
[32:26] and I start asking questions and then I
[32:28] get to listen as opposed to one that's
[32:30] got to be like the, you know, on stage.
[32:33] So that's again an example of sensing
[32:36] either in the moment or anticipating,
[32:39] pausing to take that breath. But here's
[32:41] the the piece that was the missing
[32:43] piece, which is now it's about seeing
[32:44] your best self. And so what does that
[32:46] mean? Well, it means a lot of things.
[32:48] Um, it means Mark the best self-husband.
[32:52] It means Mark the best self-p
[32:53] profofessor. It means Mark the best
[32:54] self-presenter because the selves that
[32:56] we need to present are different across
[32:59] our roles. And also the characteristics
[33:02] of that self are different across those
[33:04] roles. So I always joke like Mark I I
[33:07] really like to use humor when I present.
[33:09] It's just my style. I make fun of the
[33:11] audience. I use them. You know at home
[33:14] you know it doesn't work as well. You
[33:16] know looks like you're in the red. You
[33:18] know red tonight honey. you know, it's
[33:20] like I'll give you a red. Um, and so I
[33:23] got to be mindful that Mark's public
[33:26] speaking best self is not the same as
[33:28] his either and mentor self. Sometimes my
[33:31] humor doesn't like people don't like get
[33:33] it at work. I'm like, okay, we got to
[33:35] work on that one. And again, best friend
[33:38] self, etc. So, a big piece of this, and
[33:41] maybe people who are listening can
[33:42] actually do this right now, is to take a
[33:44] moment and think about maybe a role that
[33:47] you're struggling with. Maybe it's
[33:49] husband, dad, podcast host, whatever.
[33:53] And just think about what that self
[33:56] would ideally look like for you right
[33:59] now. What are the adjectives that you
[34:00] would use to describe that self? I think
[34:03] about this like I haven't seen Odasio in
[34:06] a month because he's been making this
[34:07] film and I'm going to show up tonight
[34:10] and know he's going to be exhausted and
[34:12] I know that, you know, I'm I'm going to
[34:14] I'm going to want to ask a lot of
[34:15] questions like, "Oh, Dennis Quaid's on
[34:16] the movie. Tell me about Dennis Quaid.
[34:18] blah blah blah and um and he's not going
[34:21] to be in the mood to talk about any of
[34:23] the actors or anything that's going on
[34:25] like I'm not in the film making
[34:26] business. I'm kind of curious but so
[34:28] okay, you know, we're going to get
[34:29] together for the first time tonight in a
[34:31] month. How can I show up as the best
[34:33] version of me in that moment? I haven't
[34:35] figured it out yet. I have the I have
[34:36] the flight to [laughter]
[34:38] but my you get my point here. Like you
[34:39] just it's
[34:42] for the for the stage maybe it's funny
[34:44] self. It's I want to be seen as smart
[34:46] but also humble. Like that's a big deal
[34:48] for me because of where I work. People
[34:50] automatically assume like whatever I
[34:53] think a lot of myself because of my job
[34:55] and I'm like I'm from Jersey like I'm
[34:57] just a normal guy like I you know I'm a
[35:00] beef and potatoes kind of guy and I
[35:02] think that really helps people when I do
[35:06] public speaking because they're what
[35:08] that the self that they they have
[35:10] created for me is not who I am etc. So
[35:13] Dan, let me ask you this. Can is there a
[35:15] role that you feel like you could work
[35:17] on more so than any other role?
[35:19] >> So many to choose from. [laughter]
[35:21] >> Pick the one that's uh shows up.
[35:22] >> The one that's just coming up right in
[35:23] my mind is uh we do a lot of company
[35:27] meetings at my little company. I own my
[35:30] company and small staff. I don't know
[35:32] somewhere between 10 and 15 people. Um
[35:35] and we do them on Zoom. And I hate Zoom.
[35:38] >> Yeah.
[35:38] >> I [ __ ] hate Zoom. I like I just if
[35:41] people video call me, I'm annoyed. Uh if
[35:44] I have to get on a Zoom, I'm annoyed.
[35:46] It's actually my biggest problem with
[35:48] hosting this podcast and why I'm trying
[35:49] to get it to be in person is I hate
[35:51] sitting and looking at a screen um
[35:53] unless that screen is playing House of
[35:55] the Dragon. Yeah. Um I don't I don't
[35:57] want to be talking on Zoom. And so yeah,
[35:59] so sometimes in these uh team meetings
[36:03] I am like physically uncomfortable
[36:06] because I don't I get really tired when
[36:08] I have to look at a screen and I don't
[36:10] think I'm accessing my best self and
[36:12] being a good leader because I'm annoyed.
[36:15] >> That's a great uh example. I do have one
[36:18] trick for you. Uh I have radically
[36:21] transformed my Zoom meetings because I
[36:24] now have a walking machine.
[36:26] >> Yeah. Yes. It has changed my life. I
[36:28] actually refuse to be in a Zoom meeting
[36:30] and not walking.
[36:31] >> So, it's a treadmill at your desk.
[36:33] >> Y
[36:34] >> love it. Extra 10,000 steps a day.
[36:36] Sometimes 15,000 depending on how many
[36:38] meetings I have. If it's a real like if
[36:41] I'm doing like an interview, I'm not
[36:42] going to like be walking [laughter]
[36:44] weird. But if it's just like
[36:45] conversations with staff about stuff,
[36:47] they just know that Mark's going to be
[36:49] walking. I've gotten like five people,
[36:50] you know, on my team to get them. Um,
[36:52] and it does help me have a better
[36:54] mindset because I feel like the movement
[36:56] piece
[36:57] >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
[36:58] >> But, um, so going back to you now, so
[37:01] you're saying that you kind of
[37:02] automatically get disengaged.
[37:04] >> Yeah.
[37:05] >> And you get like you're kind of just
[37:06] like yucky about it.
[37:08] >> Yes. Disengaged and then judgmental of
[37:10] myself.
[37:11] >> Who is the self that you'd like to show
[37:13] up in those meetings?
[37:14] >> Teacher Dan. Uh, who's generous,
[37:17] attuned, signaling that he cares about
[37:20] my employees, which I do. What's one
[37:22] strategy that you can imagine using?
[37:24] This is a great example of proactive
[37:26] regulation. You know now about yourself.
[37:28] You know that the Zoom automatically
[37:30] kind of brings up fatigue,
[37:32] disengagement, etc. So that's going to
[37:37] happen till the cows come home. We want
[37:40] to prevent that.
[37:41] So what's your strategy? What what might
[37:43] be one thing you could do differently in
[37:45] the next Zoom meeting? Now, I'm going to
[37:47] take us on a digression because I had a
[37:49] conversation with um DJ who's the
[37:53] executive producer of this show and he
[37:55] was very I love when my team does this.
[37:58] I don't actually love it in the moment,
[37:59] but I love that they feel comfortable
[38:00] enough to do it and uh it's really been
[38:02] helpful to me. He was he was able to
[38:05] like call me out on something in in a he
[38:08] in a very polite and constructive way,
[38:10] but he was saying, "I'm noticing that on
[38:12] a lot of these podcast interviews,
[38:14] you're kind of flat. And you know,
[38:17] people are saying things that you're not
[38:18] picking up on. And and I explained to
[38:21] him, you know, it's it's because of the
[38:23] Zoom. It's because I've spent the entire
[38:25] morning working on tough creative
[38:27] problems and I get into the podcast and
[38:29] I'm I just don't want to be stuck in a
[38:31] little closet in my house staring at a
[38:33] Zoom. And uh
[38:35] >> he's like, I totally get that, but like
[38:37] >> it's showtime.
[38:38] >> Yeah. And it's showtime has been a
[38:42] little phrase I've said to myself when I
[38:44] sit down for podcast interviews. Not
[38:46] like this because I'm super engaged
[38:47] because you're a live human being right
[38:49] in front of me. Um and I think it's
[38:51] showtime is another thing you could say
[38:53] I could say to myself before these Zoom
[38:55] team meetings.
[38:56] >> 100%. Love it. Simple technique, a
[38:59] simple um kind of shift strategy. Just a
[39:03] mindset shift. Showtime that that
[39:06] conjures up a whole thing for you which
[39:07] is brighteyed, cheery face, you know,
[39:09] engaged, good posture, etc., etc.
[39:12] Perfect. And maybe you think about other
[39:13] things you can do like a little
[39:15] exercise, a little bit of movement
[39:17] before you
[39:18] >> Yes. I've been I I keep a tennis ball at
[39:20] my desk and I've been sort of walking
[39:22] around the room just catching the tennis
[39:24] ball a little bit. It's not as good as
[39:26] having a treadmill at my desk, but I
[39:29] don't have to look at the screen the
[39:30] whole time and I can kind of pace a
[39:33] little bit and throw a tennis ball to
[39:34] myself, and that I find actually keeps
[39:36] me more engaged.
[39:37] >> And do you feel like every meeting has
[39:39] to be a Zoom meeting?
[39:40] >> No, we're actually talking about moving
[39:42] to phone and and for my one-on ones, um,
[39:46] we I do a lot of phone and and
[39:48] increasingly like just having people get
[39:51] together in person. like my CEO who
[39:53] lives near me. She and I just we get
[39:55] together and the and there's another
[39:57] person on my team who's who is a very
[39:59] close creative collaborator and we just
[40:01] get together and that makes all the
[40:03] difference. I have now cuz I am a
[40:06] movement guy. I uh with the key people
[40:10] on my leadership team we had a
[40:12] conversation just literally two days
[40:13] ago. I said, "Can we divide our meetings
[40:15] up into meetings where I need to like
[40:18] look at things versus not look at
[40:20] things, you know, versus we're just
[40:22] going to be talking through stuff?" So,
[40:23] yesterday I had a meeting where we were
[40:26] going through like all the emails that
[40:27] have come in and like what what do we
[40:28] want to do with this these inquiries? We
[40:30] want to do this, do we not want to do
[40:31] this? I'm like, so I just had to listen
[40:33] and basically say yes, no. They're like
[40:35] yes. I said great, I'm doing a walk
[40:37] around the reservoir. And so, it was a
[40:40] 45minute meeting. I walked around the
[40:42] entire reservoir up by where I live on
[40:43] Central Park
[40:44] >> and I was like I felt great at this.
[40:46] >> Yes.
[40:47] >> So like helping like I think that this
[40:49] again it's like there are simple
[40:50] techniques that people can do and then
[40:52] of course I come out of that feeling
[40:54] energized because it was a beautiful
[40:55] day. I got movement in. I feel
[40:58] accomplished because I got the work
[40:59] done. And or I could have been for
[41:01] people who are on YouTube watching this
[41:02] like this, [laughter]
[41:05] which is basically my jaw sticking out,
[41:08] you know, my back hunched, my neck
[41:09] crunched, you know, [laughter]
[41:13] >> an unhappy salamander is basically the
[41:16] >> Yeah. It's like I don't want that in my
[41:17] life. I want, you know, my feelings
[41:19] master, man. I want to have good
[41:20] posture.
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[42:31] >> So, did we make it through the list?
[42:33] >> No.
[42:34] >> So, we're at step three.
[42:35] >> Okay. Sense, stop.
[42:37] >> See your best self.
[42:38] >> See your best self. Now, four.
[42:40] >> Strategize.
[42:41] >> Strategize.
[42:41] >> So, the my best self says it's showtime.
[42:44] My best self says, "I'm going to walk
[42:46] during this meeting." My best self says,
[42:49] "I need a 5minute break to get myself
[42:52] together." My best self says, "Mark,
[42:56] this is part of your life. This is going
[42:58] to be one of those dinners. You can be
[43:00] the learner, not the knower."
[43:03] And um that's what's really important.
[43:06] And by the way, going back to emotion
[43:08] regulation as a kind of concept, I think
[43:11] what's so important is that people
[43:12] realize that
[43:15] different strategies are useful for
[43:17] different emotions and experiences. So
[43:19] I'll give you an example. I've been
[43:20] going through some stuff, you know, just
[43:23] who am I? What am I doing? And I was in
[43:25] yoga last night and I had this one great
[43:28] teacher. He said maybe for certain
[43:31] things given the lack of control we
[43:33] really have we can just surrender to the
[43:36] process and I don't know what it was in
[43:39] that moment but it was so I just my
[43:41] whole body and mind said you know what
[43:44] the law of physics the law of the
[43:46] universe is that we will we will we will
[43:49] move forward right now it feels like
[43:52] everything is stuck I don't love that
[43:54] feeling but if I can bring in that
[43:56] mindset of just
[43:59] This is the process, Mark. It's going to
[44:00] be This is just It's okay. I texted him.
[44:03] I actually have never done this before,
[44:05] but I was walking home and I found him
[44:07] on Instagram and I sent him a DM and I
[44:10] just said, you know,
[44:12] there was something I've been going
[44:13] through something, you know, that I'm
[44:15] struggling with and I want to just thank
[44:17] you because that language was enormously
[44:21] helpful for me and just thank you. And
[44:23] he wrote me back like, "Oh my god, we're
[44:24] in this together." you know, was but you
[44:27] know, now I can now that I learned that
[44:30] that was helpful for me cuz I just my I
[44:32] just felt my body and mind shift when
[44:34] I'm going into a meeting over the next
[44:36] couple weeks about this particular
[44:38] thing. I will bring that memory in. I
[44:41] will bring that feeling in. So, I'll be
[44:43] more I took what I learned in the moment
[44:45] and I'm applying it to be more
[44:47] proactive. Just a digression on your
[44:49] digression here, but th this notion of
[44:51] surrender is tricky because it can be
[44:53] misinterpreted just as uh emotion
[44:56] regulation can be misinterpreted. S
[44:59] >> I just want to signal to the listener
[45:01] and viewer that you are surrendering to
[45:03] a process. Correct. There is a process.
[45:06] So this is not like drift
[45:08] >> but I'm not going to solve that process
[45:10] when I'm ruminating about it in yoga.
[45:12] >> Right. Right.
[45:13] >> And so I'm not going to ruin my class by
[45:16] just sitting there like oh my god. I'm
[45:17] like,
[45:19] luckily, you know, hot power yoga for me
[45:21] gets me out of my head. But for me, it
[45:23] was that phrase and it just said, you
[45:25] know what, Mark, it's a process. You're
[45:28] not going to solve this problem in this
[45:30] next 45 minutes. Enjoy the moment. Be
[45:32] here. You love this class. And then but
[45:35] then when I left I actually you know it
[45:37] was I felt joy and I you know it was
[45:41] beautiful for me to have that experience
[45:43] of like just a reminder like I like you
[45:46] said it's a process not going to solve
[45:48] it today. It's not something that's
[45:49] actually even solvable in the moment.
[45:51] It's a it's going to be this process.
[45:53] >> Well said.
[45:54] >> But I want to just help people
[45:55] understand what I mean by flexible
[45:58] regulation. um or sometimes we call it
[46:00] polyregulation which is the idea that
[46:03] I'll give you some a few examples. So I
[46:06] have noticed I've been paying attention
[46:08] go figure to like what strategies I use
[46:10] for what emotions and what situations.
[46:13] What I've learned is that when I have a
[46:16] relationship challenge, I'm not great at
[46:19] using cognitive strategies. I will
[46:21] ruminate and I will try to figure it out
[46:24] and like wonder like why does this
[46:26] person not like me or why is this like
[46:28] this and you know it's like I'm I think
[46:29] I'm the nicest guy in the world and how
[46:31] could anybody not like me like I'll go
[46:33] through a whole thing of like self-doubt
[46:35] or like I'm whatever that never that has
[46:38] not worked for me for I'm going to be 57
[46:41] in a few weeks.
[46:42] >> Happy birthday.
[46:42] >> Thank you. What does work
[46:45] is recognize I have a lot of close
[46:48] acquaintances, a lot of friends, a lot
[46:50] of people who I really respect and
[46:51] admire and why should I have to worry
[46:53] about this alone? Why don't I just call
[46:55] up a friend and just say, "What do you
[46:57] think about this and hear your
[46:59] perspective?" And all of a sudden, I'm
[47:01] like, "Oh my god, I'm not alone. I'm a
[47:02] nice guy. People there are people who
[47:04] love me." Um, but my point is that
[47:07] whatever it is for me in my makeup and
[47:09] my development, when it's about an
[47:13] interpersonal thing, I struggle with
[47:16] resolving it on my own. I do really well
[47:19] by listening and getting just sharing
[47:21] the situation, not venting for hours and
[47:24] hours because I know that doesn't work.
[47:26] I take I just say, "Do what do you think
[47:27] about like this particular situation?
[47:30] Any thoughts?" And I listen and then I
[47:32] sh and I'm I sift through what I hear.
[47:34] I'm like, "Yeah, of course, great." And
[47:37] then I can move on. Now, when I am
[47:41] frustrated
[47:42] with something, let's say with Odasio, I
[47:47] have to talk it out. I just got I can't
[47:49] like I don't want to go to bed at night.
[47:51] I just need to verbalize it in a way
[47:53] that, you know, can get met. And the
[47:55] reason I'm sharing this with you is that
[47:57] for people I think we get obsessed with
[47:59] like one strategy like breath work seem
[48:02] people seem to be obsessed with which is
[48:04] fine breath work is great it's not going
[48:06] to solve the world's problems you you
[48:09] can you know I joke about this but my
[48:11] mother-in-law who came during co
[48:13] accidentally was a whole crazy thing
[48:15] where she um came March 5th of 2020 to
[48:20] visit us from Panama.
[48:22] >> Okay. She did not go home until
[48:24] September 17th. So, she was supposed to
[48:27] stay for two weeks. She stayed for seven
[48:29] months because of COVID and all the
[48:31] flights being cancelled. So, I take
[48:32] breaths and okay, it's even clear why
[48:35] she's got to get the hell out of my
[48:36] house. It's like I have complete clarity
[48:39] why I can't take it anymore. So, yeah,
[48:42] breath work is great. Yoga is great. But
[48:45] sometimes we need perspective from other
[48:47] people. Like this is a big issue for
[48:49] example with men and emotions. Men think
[48:51] I got to solve it on my own. No, I can't
[48:52] be vulnerable. Why? Who said you can't
[48:56] ask someone for some advice or some
[48:57] support or get perspective? It's just
[49:00] that we're taught that that's weak or
[49:02] being too vulnerable.
[49:04] Um, so polyregulation or flexible
[49:07] regulation says, okay, emotion
[49:09] regulation is a function of the emotion
[49:11] itself and the context. So, marks when
[49:15] I'm overwhelmed, for example, I'm a
[49:17] writer, you do a lot of writing, too. I
[49:19] noticed that if I am overwhelmed and I
[49:22] try to keep writing, it sucks. How about
[49:24] you?
[49:25] >> This is a mistake I keep making. I I'm
[49:27] overwhelmed, but I feel pressure to
[49:30] bulldoze through it and I it's just
[49:32] nothing. Nothing good happens.
[49:34] >> Exactly. So, give my little thing. I am
[49:37] very hyper aware of when I am stuck
[49:40] writing. A, you know, I've written two
[49:42] books, I'm going to write a third book.
[49:44] I have written 200 scholarly articles. I
[49:47] can write. I actually know I can write
[49:48] because I have the data to prove it.
[49:51] There are moments when I can't even
[49:53] think of a I can't write a paragraph.
[49:55] It's like the craziest thing in the
[49:56] world and I can just be like, "Mark,
[49:59] like you're a writer. This is you're a
[50:00] professor. You're a scholar." And it's
[50:03] like, "Who gives a fuck?" And in that
[50:05] moment, I'm like, "You need a break."
[50:07] And I just shut the computer and I walk
[50:09] outside. I take a 10-minute walk.
[50:11] Sometimes I'll do a little movement and
[50:14] I come back and it's like all the ideas
[50:17] come back to me. So I really encourage
[50:19] that. And so this is again knowing
[50:21] yourself. So for overwhelm
[50:24] I know that I have to give myself those
[50:25] micro breaks. That's great. For anxiety
[50:30] which is more about like this like
[50:32] what's going to happen? What's going to
[50:33] happen?
[50:35] I could take a break and what's going to
[50:36] happen? What's going to happen? I take
[50:37] another break. I come back. What's going
[50:39] to happen? What's going to happen? It
[50:40] doesn't work for me. For anxiety, I have
[50:42] to use selft talk strategies. I have to
[50:45] say things like, Mark, take the high
[50:47] road here. Mark, you're not, you know,
[50:50] during co I would say things like, Mark,
[50:51] you are not the CDC. Mark, you are not
[50:54] the president of the university. You're
[50:55] not going to ever make the choice about
[50:57] when we go back to work. And it would
[50:58] just be like, oh yeah, I have no control
[51:00] over this. So I can either just sit all
[51:03] day long watching the stock market crash
[51:05] and watching people die of COVID or I
[51:08] can distract myself from that and focus
[51:10] on what I can focus on. So overwhelm
[51:13] strategies different from anxiety
[51:15] strategies. Um does that make sense?
[51:18] >> Yes.
[51:18] >> Okay. It does. I think it's just really
[51:20] critical because I think people get
[51:22] stuck and you know part of the reason
[51:24] why I wrote this new book dealing with
[51:25] feeling was to create these to really
[51:27] show people that like your strategy
[51:30] might just be a mindset shift. Your
[51:32] strategy might be the breath work. Your
[51:34] strategy might be shifting your thought
[51:37] processes. Your strategy might be
[51:40] getting social support. Your strategy
[51:42] might be getting taking a nap, getting a
[51:45] little bite to eat, doing a little
[51:47] physical activity. And in the end, what
[51:49] I believe is that if you accumulate all
[51:51] these evidence-based strategies, that's
[51:54] what helps you what? Become the best
[51:57] version of yourself.
[51:57] >> Right. Exactly.
[51:58] >> It all kind of it all all these kind of
[52:01] strategies come together so that when
[52:03] you are triggered and you pause and you
[52:06] take the breath and then you visualize
[52:08] the best self, you now have trained
[52:10] yourself with all these strategies and
[52:12] you can match the strategy to the
[52:14] emotion in the moment.
[52:16] >> Got it? Yes. Does that make sense?
[52:18] >> It makes complete sense. As we march
[52:20] through this five-part strategy, it
[52:21] makes me realize that this is actually
[52:23] you could use this in preparation for
[52:26] something the meta moment, but you can
[52:28] also use it in the actual moment.
[52:30] >> Exactly. It's meant It was originally
[52:32] developed for the moment, like prolong
[52:34] the space between stimulus and response
[52:37] um to, you know, be the best version of
[52:39] yourself. And then I just realized that
[52:42] wait a minute, like why don't we use
[52:44] this for what we might anticipate would
[52:47] be a difficult meeting, you know, and I
[52:49] do a lot of work in school, so it' be
[52:50] like the teacher having the parent
[52:52] meeting and it's like the parents going
[52:55] to be angry, their kid is getting in
[52:56] trouble. Can I be better prepared? Can I
[52:59] think about my go-to strategy for when
[53:00] the parent says you're ruining my kid?
[53:04] Like I don't want you to be caught off
[53:05] guard. you know this person, this parent
[53:08] after, you know, years of working with
[53:09] them or whatever. Let's pretend it's
[53:12] gonna happen. Let's be prepped in
[53:15] advance so that you can be a better
[53:17] responder as opposed to automatic
[53:20] reactor. Have you ever called a business
[53:22] and nobody picked up? So then you just
[53:24] went to the next business in the in the
[53:27] [music] array of Google results when you
[53:29] were googling. Uh I'm actually in this
[53:31] position now. I'm I'm interested in
[53:32] getting a little bit into tennis [music]
[53:34] and I'm going to call around to the
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[54:41] [music]
[54:43] This episode is sponsored by FarmKind. I
[54:46] had a key moment several years ago when
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[56:18] We've done four of the five steps. First
[56:20] is sense. Second is stop. Third is see
[56:23] your best self. Fourth is strategize.
[56:25] Yep.
[56:26] >> Is the fifth also going to start with a
[56:27] letter S?
[56:28] >> Of course. Yeah. [laughter]
[56:31] >> Um it's going to be uh self assess. So
[56:36] now the real meta moment is the four
[56:38] steps. It's you go from sensing the
[56:41] shift in your mind and body to
[56:44] strategizing and acting in a way that
[56:45] aligns with your best self. But I'm
[56:48] going to give you one just terrible
[56:50] example of my like worst self. Odasio um
[56:53] made this movie called America
[56:55] Unfiltered that I helped to make and he
[56:57] had a book of his portraits. It was a it
[56:58] was a tour of America and asking people
[57:00] what it meant to be an American. and we
[57:03] were he's like I really want to do the
[57:06] book of portraits like a coffee table
[57:08] book of all of his photography. Great.
[57:11] We we'll figure it out. We'll figure it
[57:13] out. So now his English is a second
[57:16] language. Uh he's from Panama originally
[57:18] and we had to write like the forward and
[57:20] or the you know the introduction and the
[57:22] conclusion of the book and obviously I
[57:25] do a lot of writing. I'm going to be the
[57:26] editor. I'm going to make this much
[57:28] shorter than it really was. So I get
[57:30] home from a long trip. The book is due
[57:32] the next day. I had already edited the
[57:35] the intro and the conclusion and I get
[57:38] the galley and I'm like this is not the
[57:41] version that I edited. Like I don't
[57:43] understand like what happened here. Like
[57:46] I spent a lot of time editing this intro
[57:49] and he's gets very defensive and you
[57:52] know we got into this huge fight. I was
[57:54] so tired and irritated that I mean like
[57:58] the worst worst version of the feelings
[58:02] master came out. It was awful. I mean
[58:06] and in retrospect I I think all this
[58:09] work on emotional intelligence all in
[58:11] the crapper. Has this ever happened?
[58:13] >> Every Tuesday. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
[58:16] And you It's worse because and I don't
[58:19] most people listening to this probably
[58:20] won't be able to relate to it, but you
[58:22] and I have public personas. Sure.
[58:24] >> And internalize personas of being, you
[58:27] know, better than that.
[58:28] >> Yeah. Like people who are practitioners.
[58:30] >> Yes. Yes. And then so when I do the
[58:34] stupid thing or say the stupid thing,
[58:35] it's it's even more embarrassing for me.
[58:38] >> Exactly. And I'm like, you're a fraud.
[58:40] You know, the whole thing. And
[58:44] it's like, gosh, it was bad. I'm going
[58:47] to I'm going to be like I'm going tell a
[58:48] story that I know. I hope he doesn't
[58:50] kill me for this. But so we live we have
[58:53] a a place in the country and um he was
[58:56] so upset with me he went outside and
[58:58] started like howling. [laughter]
[59:01] So the next morning our neighbor said
[59:02] did you hear the wolves [laughter]
[59:06] like I actually did and they weren't
[59:08] wolves it was actually harassio
[59:10] [laughter] and I mean obviously we're
[59:12] we've been together 32 years we're in a
[59:15] I think in the best place we've ever
[59:16] been and we now have the skills to
[59:18] repair. So my point of telling you this
[59:21] is that I didn't take the meta moment
[59:24] and I hate myself for that. But I don't
[59:27] want to go backwards in life. I want to
[59:28] move forward and I need to have learned
[59:31] how to apology apologize you know ask
[59:34] for forgiveness repair not with all the
[59:37] butts buts buts buts but buts but but
[59:38] why didn't you edit it and but why'd you
[59:39] give the wrong version that happened you
[59:42] know just because it didn't go as
[59:45] planned and he made a mistake doesn't
[59:47] mean I need to be a jerk. It takes the
[59:49] same amount of time to be a jerk as it
[59:51] does to be compassionate.
[59:52] >> Yeah. But it's so much harder to be
[59:54] compassionate.
[59:55] >> But this is what we have to strive for.
[59:57] And that's another big piece of this.
[59:58] And I'm glad you said that because we're
[1:00:00] never going to attain our best self.
[1:00:02] >> We're never going to attain it
[1:00:03] permanently.
[1:00:04] >> Exactly. It's something we strive for
[1:00:06] because it's and it's, you know, our
[1:00:08] relationships change over time. The
[1:00:10] person that I met when I was 24 years
[1:00:12] old, you know, is not the person I'm
[1:00:15] with now 32 years later. Um, and that's
[1:00:18] important to know. And so this the self
[1:00:23] assessment is really about,
[1:00:26] okay, it worked. Congratulations. Let's
[1:00:29] use this one again. Mark, you got
[1:00:31] through the meta moment. You used your
[1:00:32] best self. Now, every time you go out
[1:00:35] for dinner, you're going to take the
[1:00:36] breath in the elevator. You're going to
[1:00:38] remind yourself that you're the learner,
[1:00:40] not the knower. You don't have to talk
[1:00:42] throughout the whole night. You can
[1:00:43] observe the food, not eat at all. You
[1:00:45] got this, Mark? Yes, got it. And it
[1:00:49] works 90% of the time, not 100%.
[1:00:52] You know, it happens. And then there's
[1:00:54] the times when, you know, I ate the
[1:00:56] whole thing of nachos and guacamole and
[1:00:58] I feel like or the times that I just say
[1:01:01] the nastiest thing ever to my
[1:01:04] significant other and I have to go I
[1:01:06] have to take them I have to take some
[1:01:07] time and like just say like why did this
[1:01:12] version of myself come out tonight?
[1:01:15] And usually it's an issue of control.
[1:01:17] Usually it's an issue of trying to prove
[1:01:19] myself. Usually it's something that's
[1:01:21] just not that healthy. Um and then I can
[1:01:25] build again and say, "Okay, next time
[1:01:27] what's your strategy?"
[1:01:29] >> Well, you said something crucial there
[1:01:30] because the self assessment
[1:01:33] is actually part of the proactive
[1:01:36] regulation because if you can see like
[1:01:38] what's my trigger? You just said there
[1:01:40] it was something about control. I think
[1:01:42] that's a very common trigger. Yep.
[1:01:44] >> Well, then you're better prepared for
[1:01:46] when you're going into a situation and
[1:01:48] you understand, oh yeah, that trigger
[1:01:50] could come up for me.
[1:01:52] >> 100%. And this is the whole point like
[1:01:55] anticipatory. Another example I'll just
[1:01:56] give you. We're actually close to her
[1:01:59] neighborhood. She has passed, but I had
[1:02:01] an aunt who was a very successful woman
[1:02:03] in the garment industry here in New
[1:02:05] York. But she had she was like the devil
[1:02:07] was word prototype, except she didn't do
[1:02:09] fancy clothing. She did other kinds of
[1:02:11] clothing.
[1:02:12] >> Trade. Yeah, pretty much. [laughter]
[1:02:15] The sweaters that she designed are to be
[1:02:18] discussed elsewhere. [laughter] But
[1:02:20] anyway,
[1:02:22] the um so but my aunt would like she had
[1:02:26] all this jewelry and we'd be in a
[1:02:28] restaurant and she'd be like bang her
[1:02:31] diamond ring on the thing to get
[1:02:32] attention from the waiter and you'd be
[1:02:34] sitting there thinking like,
[1:02:34] >> "Oh my god,
[1:02:35] >> I can't believe this is happening."
[1:02:36] >> Yeah. or we had she had an apartment on
[1:02:38] the east side and we'd go there and
[1:02:41] she'd say things like, "What are you
[1:02:42] doing?" I said, "I don't know. We're
[1:02:44] having dinner with the family. I'm just
[1:02:45] lighting the candles." She goes, "Those
[1:02:47] are for real company."
[1:02:49] >> Got it.
[1:02:49] >> Okay. That's That was my aunt. Funny,
[1:02:52] cool, not easy to be with. So, what do
[1:02:55] you do before you go to Aunt Sandy's
[1:02:58] house or before you have dinner with
[1:02:59] Aunt Sandy? You do a lot of prep work.
[1:03:02] You take the meta moment in advance. You
[1:03:05] say she's going to bang her diamond ring
[1:03:07] on the table and be a, you know, so
[1:03:09] embarrassing. She's going to say nasty
[1:03:11] things about people. She's going to roll
[1:03:13] her eyes. She does a lot of eye rolling,
[1:03:15] too. It's like if someone she doesn't
[1:03:16] agree with you, she people who can't
[1:03:18] see, you know, she does this massive eye
[1:03:20] roll in front of the person. I'm like,
[1:03:22] what's going on? Ridiculous. But like,
[1:03:25] this is who she is. I'm not changing
[1:03:26] her. It's not my job to be her teacher.
[1:03:29] It's my job to not to want to be with my
[1:03:32] family. And she's part of the family. So
[1:03:34] I got to deal with it. But then it
[1:03:37] became honestly I called it like a game
[1:03:39] of creativity. And so what I mean by
[1:03:41] that is I actually think emotion
[1:03:43] regulation is a very creative process
[1:03:46] cuz it's like divergent. It's like let
[1:03:48] me think about it this way. Let me try
[1:03:49] this. Let me do this. Mark, how would
[1:03:51] the feelings master respond to that
[1:03:52] thing and that thing and that thing? And
[1:03:54] it's really fun if you make it into a
[1:03:55] game.
[1:03:56] >> Bruce Lee used to say, you're a martial
[1:03:58] artist. He used to say be like water.
[1:03:59] Yes. And that's what you're doing when
[1:04:02] you're um when and I say this to the
[1:04:05] listener and viewer, when you're being
[1:04:07] your own feelings master, you're being
[1:04:09] like water. You're adapting to the
[1:04:10] situation. Creative.
[1:04:11] >> Couldn't agree more. So that became like
[1:04:13] a fun exercise. I would be like, okay.
[1:04:16] So when an makes the dumb comment, what
[1:04:19] am I going to think and what am I going
[1:04:20] to say? And it just became like this is
[1:04:23] like this is who she is. This is, you
[1:04:25] know, and I wouldn't get triggered
[1:04:27] anymore. I would just find it amusing. I
[1:04:29] would observe it and say like wow I wish
[1:04:31] I would have tracked her development
[1:04:36] [laughter]
[1:04:36] like what was her relationship like what
[1:04:38] did it look like for her growing up in
[1:04:39] her family
[1:04:40] >> and I would I again that's selft talk
[1:04:42] too I would actually say these things to
[1:04:44] myself I'd be like gosh this is a
[1:04:45] fascinating story like how does someone
[1:04:48] like that get made
[1:04:50] >> so that's the process from you know we
[1:04:53] sense we stop we see our best selves we
[1:04:57] strategize guys and then we have to do
[1:04:59] some evaluation or self assessment.
[1:05:02] >> Actually, if it's okay to share this, I
[1:05:04] uh on my website, I created a little
[1:05:05] worksheet for this.
[1:05:06] >> Oh, great. So, just mark bracket.com and
[1:05:09] uh there's a it's called the metam
[1:05:10] moment strategybuilder worksheet to help
[1:05:12] people just try it out.
[1:05:15] >> And if you go to markbrackchet.com, you
[1:05:17] can also find your books which are
[1:05:18] permission to feel and dealing with
[1:05:20] feeling.
[1:05:20] >> Correct.
[1:05:21] >> And there's a third one coming.
[1:05:22] >> That's right.
[1:05:23] >> Okay. Great. Will you come back on the
[1:05:24] show when that
[1:05:25] >> I would love to. This is I think this is
[1:05:27] um I'm excited about this one. This is
[1:05:29] if I can just say upfront it's about how
[1:05:32] to be an emotion ally
[1:05:33] >> for somebody else.
[1:05:34] >> Yeah.
[1:05:35] >> A thought came into my head when you
[1:05:36] were talking about your aunt uh Sandy um
[1:05:39] where you
[1:05:41] trained yourself to be able to get
[1:05:44] curious about like okay well what was it
[1:05:46] like in her home that she's now had
[1:05:48] developing an ocular sprain by rolling
[1:05:50] her eyes so ostentatiously
[1:05:53] you know when somebody says something
[1:05:54] she disagrees with. I'm wondering
[1:05:56] whether learning how to become your own
[1:05:59] feelings master inexurably and
[1:06:01] inevitably leads you to becoming more
[1:06:04] compassionate to becoming more of an
[1:06:06] ally for other people cuz you see how to
[1:06:10] use the word you used before you see
[1:06:11] your own mishagas you see how [ __ ]
[1:06:13] crazy you are so you understand though
[1:06:16] everybody's got their own stuff
[1:06:17] >> yeah I think what you're getting at Dan
[1:06:19] is something that we didn't talk about
[1:06:21] which can kind of like bring in at the
[1:06:23] end which is that the The reason why I
[1:06:26] think this technique helps and the
[1:06:27] reason why I think emotion regulation is
[1:06:29] important is that you're not really
[1:06:30] doing it for its own sake. You're doing
[1:06:32] it for outcomes. I actually want to feel
[1:06:36] good about myself.
[1:06:37] >> Of course.
[1:06:37] >> Yes. And achieve your goals.
[1:06:39] >> I Yeah. I want to like I want to be in a
[1:06:41] healthy, productive, honest, and open
[1:06:43] relationship with my significant other.
[1:06:45] >> I want to make the best decisions. I
[1:06:47] want to have good mental health. And
[1:06:49] like you just said, I want to achieve my
[1:06:50] goals in life. And as someone who has,
[1:06:52] you know, coached thousands of people
[1:06:54] and trained millions of people at this
[1:06:56] point in my career, I can tell you right
[1:06:58] now, cognitive ability is a necessary
[1:07:01] but insufficient skill. You got to learn
[1:07:03] how to deal with your feelings.
[1:07:05] >> And to get back to the thesis of your
[1:07:06] next book, are you arguing in that book
[1:07:09] that learning how to deal with your own
[1:07:10] feelings helps you be an ally to others?
[1:07:12] >> I am. I mean, that's part of it. That's
[1:07:14] part of the dealing with feeling book.
[1:07:15] What I'm arguing in this next book is
[1:07:19] that only about a third of us feel like
[1:07:22] we had a pretty good emotional
[1:07:24] development. Twothirds of us feel like,
[1:07:26] gosh, I was raised by wolves. Nobody
[1:07:28] really cared about my emotions. That's
[1:07:30] my research. 70 studies across the
[1:07:32] world.
[1:07:32] >> Wow.
[1:07:32] >> So, you can't change the past. Now,
[1:07:36] maybe I'll end with this kind of little
[1:07:39] story, which is I uh I wrote this book,
[1:07:43] Permission to Feel, which is I dedicated
[1:07:44] to my uncle because he was the adult who
[1:07:46] gave me permission to feel. He was the
[1:07:48] only one who ever asked me how I was
[1:07:49] feeling. And so, I'm now running around
[1:07:52] giving speeches. I'm in Westchester of
[1:07:54] all places where you are,
[1:07:56] >> where I live. Yes.
[1:07:57] >> And I'm giving a speech to the different
[1:07:59] district leaders there because I do a
[1:08:01] lot of work in schools as I shared. And
[1:08:03] you're not going to believe this. So I
[1:08:05] don't I didn't always talk about my
[1:08:06] uncle and his profound impact on my life
[1:08:08] and how he gave me permission to feel,
[1:08:10] but I did because that's what I wrote
[1:08:11] about. And this guy who's a
[1:08:13] superintendent uh in a district up
[1:08:15] there, he's like, "Are you talking about
[1:08:17] Marvin Moore, the sixth grade social
[1:08:18] studies teacher from Monttoello, New
[1:08:20] York, I said, I am." And he goes, "Mark,
[1:08:23] you're not going to believe this. Your
[1:08:24] uncle Marvin was my uncle Marvin." I'm
[1:08:27] like, "What do you And he's like, "Your
[1:08:28] uncle was my sixth grade teacher 50
[1:08:31] years ago and he is the reason why I
[1:08:33] went into education. Your uncle was the
[1:08:34] most amazing human being. I never forget
[1:08:36] his facial expressions, his eyes, the
[1:08:37] way he talked." Like, he went on and on
[1:08:39] and on. I'm like, "Dude, I got to finish
[1:08:40] my talk." But can we talk afterwards? It
[1:08:43] was mind-blowing about how he saw my
[1:08:46] uncle like I did as his emotion ally.
[1:08:50] Now, here's what I really wanted to
[1:08:52] share, which is the the focus of this
[1:08:54] next project, which is at the end he
[1:08:58] said, "Hey, Mark, like it's pretty clear
[1:09:01] your uncle had a profound impact on your
[1:09:03] development and your whole career." I
[1:09:05] said 100%. I dedicate much of my success
[1:09:10] to him. And so he said, "Well, so for
[1:09:14] whom are you and Uncle Marvin Mark?" I'm
[1:09:15] like, "I like to do the research." And
[1:09:18] it was so eye openening to me about
[1:09:19] paying it forward. And so my hope is
[1:09:23] that in the future it won't be onethird
[1:09:26] of people across the world that say they
[1:09:28] had someone who cared about them in
[1:09:30] terms of their feelings growing up, but
[1:09:31] it would be 90 100%. And so it's kind of
[1:09:34] what have I learned from the research to
[1:09:37] support more people in showing up for
[1:09:39] other people as emotion allies?
[1:09:41] >> I look forward to talking about it with
[1:09:42] you.
[1:09:43] >> Thank you. Did Marissa, our producer,
[1:09:45] uh, prime you for the fact that we've
[1:09:46] got a new closing segment we do?
[1:09:48] >> No, but I'm happy to do whatever you
[1:09:51] want.
[1:09:51] >> Okay. So, we're we're toying with this
[1:09:53] new closing segment that we're calling
[1:09:55] What's Good. So, is there like a book, a
[1:09:58] TV show, some little practice, some
[1:10:01] movie, some something that you would
[1:10:04] recommend uh that's good in your life?
[1:10:07] And then I'll give you one. I can go
[1:10:09] first if that would be easier for you.
[1:10:10] Okay. A couple months before the America
[1:10:12] 250, I got um semi-obsessed with um the
[1:10:17] Revolutionary War and um I watched a
[1:10:20] 12-part documentary series on PBS, which
[1:10:23] is not the thing I'm recommending,
[1:10:24] although I do recommend it. Um uh but
[1:10:26] there's a book called Founding Brothers
[1:10:28] that talks about uh the founding fathers
[1:10:32] and
[1:10:34] their fraternal relationship sometimes
[1:10:37] warm sometimes Cain and Abel with one
[1:10:39] another. And it what it does is it kind
[1:10:42] of reveals that um these people that we
[1:10:45] lionize or actually on some college
[1:10:48] campuses vilify uh are
[1:10:52] complex human beings and you may have
[1:10:55] statues built to you. You might be on
[1:10:58] our currency, but you had your best self
[1:11:01] and your reflexive self. And um we can't
[1:11:06] tell one solid story about somebody,
[1:11:09] George Washington, for example. Um we
[1:11:11] think of him as a great warrior, but he
[1:11:13] lost for like the first 2 three years.
[1:11:16] He was just in retreat. We think about
[1:11:18] him as somebody who um I think
[1:11:20] justifiably as somebody who
[1:11:22] um allowed for the peaceful transfer of
[1:11:24] power, stepping down voluntarily when he
[1:11:26] could have become a kind of American
[1:11:27] Caesar. True. Also,
[1:11:31] dude traveled with a slave for much of
[1:11:33] that time in the Revolutionary War and
[1:11:35] was a slave owner and was uh largely at
[1:11:38] least initially motivated uh to buck the
[1:11:42] English because he wanted to colonize uh
[1:11:45] indigenous lands west of uh where he
[1:11:48] lived in Virginia. And so all of these
[1:11:50] things are true simultaneously. And I
[1:11:52] think that's really helpful just to
[1:11:53] understand about the founding fathers or
[1:11:56] about anybody really that we are more
[1:11:58] than one thing. So long wind up for
[1:12:00] recommending founding brothers.
[1:12:02] >> Yeah, mine is going to be much simpler.
[1:12:04] Um but I I actually um am familiar with
[1:12:07] that and and really appreciate that kind
[1:12:09] of complexity that we many of us have in
[1:12:12] our lives. I, you know, I have fifth
[1:12:14] degree black belt in the martial arts
[1:12:16] and I, you know, I'm one of those people
[1:12:18] who like was always like, you got to
[1:12:19] persevere at all costs and achieve your
[1:12:21] goals. And I've come to the conclusion
[1:12:25] observing people that what's good is
[1:12:28] play, just have fun. Like, can we just
[1:12:32] have fun? And like, I don't have to be
[1:12:33] great at everything and I can just try
[1:12:36] this out. If I don't like it, I could
[1:12:37] try something else. You know, be aware
[1:12:38] if I'm giving up because I, you know, am
[1:12:40] insecure. But I just think that I do so
[1:12:44] much work with families and parents and
[1:12:47] you know maybe it's because of the
[1:12:48] institution I work at that it's like by
[1:12:51] third grade you got to have your coach
[1:12:52] you know it's like really like try
[1:12:56] martial arts you know maybe you'll be
[1:12:58] good at maybe you won't try skiing try
[1:13:00] football swimming like just and actually
[1:13:03] if you look at the research what it
[1:13:06] shows is that some of our most um lauded
[1:13:10] Olympians
[1:13:12] were not focused on their initial sport
[1:13:14] at the beginning. They really tried a
[1:13:16] lot of things and then they found the
[1:13:17] one that they were most passionate about
[1:13:19] later on and became experts. So the good
[1:13:22] is is sort of just be flexible, have
[1:13:24] some fun.
[1:13:25] >> Just to I 100% agree with you. And just
[1:13:28] to back that up, um hopefully she's okay
[1:13:31] with me saying this, but my CEO of of my
[1:13:34] little company, Tony, who's amazing, um
[1:13:37] she often talks about how she can in her
[1:13:39] worst moments become a work robot where
[1:13:42] she's just working all the time. And I
[1:13:45] for her and for many of us, the antidote
[1:13:47] is to play, is to do, you know, for
[1:13:50] Tony, she likes to ride her bike or take
[1:13:51] hikes or garden. But what you're arguing
[1:13:53] is a step beyond that. Yes, play and try
[1:13:56] new things that you might suck at.
[1:13:58] There's real value in it.
[1:13:59] >> Actually, it's funny about play. I just
[1:14:00] thought of this. I forgot, but one of my
[1:14:02] former um researchers on at my center uh
[1:14:06] went on to be going in the gaming
[1:14:07] business and he came to visit me about 6
[1:14:10] months ago. I was like, why don't we
[1:14:12] make a game out of your work? And so, we
[1:14:14] actually built a game. It's called the
[1:14:15] point of connection. I'm going to give
[1:14:16] you one actually. And it's this fun card
[1:14:19] game where you're like getting to know
[1:14:20] people. And so we've decided that he we
[1:14:23] hadn't seen each other in like 3 years
[1:14:24] and we went out for dinner and it was
[1:14:26] like we talked for like 15 minutes and
[1:14:27] it was like uh-huh. [laughter]
[1:14:30] And then in that moment he's like what
[1:14:33] what kind of questions could we write to
[1:14:35] get to know each other better and we had
[1:14:39] so much fun. We like stayed for five
[1:14:40] hours writing questions and then we just
[1:14:42] made it into a game.
[1:14:43] >> That's great. Yeah. Okay. Is it
[1:14:45] available?
[1:14:45] >> Yeah. Okay. Point of point of connection
[1:14:47] also available through markbet.com.
[1:14:49] Okay. Mark Brackett, always a pleasure
[1:14:51] to talk to you, even more so in person.
[1:14:53] Thank you for doing this.
[1:14:54] >> Thank you for having me.
[1:14:56] >> Just a quick note before I let you go.
[1:14:57] If you're a listener to the show and
[1:14:58] you're looking for other ways to engage
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[1:15:45] mouthful. Thank you for being here.
[1:15:46] Deuces. Thank you so much to everybody
[1:15:49] who worked so hard to make this show.
[1:15:51] 10% Happier is produced [music] by Tara
[1:15:53] Anderson, Marissa Schneiderman, DJ
[1:15:55] Cashmir, David Hart, and Hayden Broom.
[1:15:57] Our recording and engineering is handled
[1:15:59] by the great [music] folks over at Pod
[1:16:01] People. And Nick Thorburn of the indie
[1:16:04] rock band Islands wrote our theme.
[1:16:07] Thanks for listening. Peace.
[1:16:10] [music]