Transcript
[0:00] I don't think we were made in God's
[0:01] image, but I think we so wanted there to
[0:04] be a God, we created one in our image.
[0:06] I'll describe something to you. It's all
[0:07] powerful, all knowing, uh, can perform
[0:10] miracles and lives in a cloud. We're not
[0:11] the center of the universe.
[0:13] >> We're not the We're no different to the
[0:14] animals. We're not even in charge of our
[0:17] um minds. And now we're not the smartest
[0:19] thing in the room.
[0:20] >> It's another humiliation.
[0:22] >> Well, I I love what you've done with the
[0:24] outfit today. I love it's [laughter]
[0:25] it's really Yeah, it's
[0:27] >> likewise. Yeah. Back at you.
[0:28] >> Yeah. the Rick Jay School of Fashion.
[0:30] >> Well, at least one of us dressed as a
[0:31] grown-up.
[0:32] >> Yes, I'm dressed appropriately. Um,
[0:34] obviously, obviously, this is my first
[0:36] time meeting you, but I've listened to
[0:37] the show um uh religiously.
[0:40] >> I hope you don't find that.
[0:42] >> No, not at all.
[0:42] >> Um, but this is my first time hearing
[0:44] you at regular speed. [laughter]
[0:48] >> My condolences voice at regular speed.
[0:51] >> This is going to be a challenge for
[0:52] >> Oh, this is going to be Try to stay.
[0:54] >> This is going to be a long couple of
[0:55] hours. [laughter] It's a You've got a
[0:57] beautiful voice. longest two hours of
[0:59] your life. Yeah.
[1:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm told that I, you
[1:02] know, I'm often on, you know, 2.0 or
[1:04] faster for some people. I mean, I'm a
[1:06] I'm a genuine slow talker,
[1:07] >> but you you seem to speak in like I
[1:09] mean, a lot of people I can speak in
[1:10] full sentences.
[1:11] >> It's not word salad, but you speak in
[1:13] full paragraphs.
[1:14] >> Well, I have more time. I'm a slow
[1:16] speaker,
[1:16] >> obviously. Yes. It's just taking my
[1:18] time.
[1:18] >> Yeah. [laughter] It's it's basically you
[1:21] [clears throat] are the linguistic
[1:22] equivalent of Neo in the Matrix. just
[1:25] you've slowed down time so you can dodge
[1:27] the bullets because
[1:28] >> Yeah. But it's somehow less impressive
[1:30] for all that. [laughter]
[1:32] >> Yeah. I mean the truth is I I mean I
[1:34] feel like I'm just neurologically
[1:36] impaired. I I could not speak as fast as
[1:39] you do or I mean there are people like
[1:41] you know Ben Shapiro who are just you
[1:42] know speaking twice literally twice as
[1:45] fast as I do. But even if you gave me my
[1:47] lines and I rehearsed them I can't
[1:50] actually speak as fast as you could
[1:53] naturally speak. Right. So yeah,
[1:56] >> like my mouth just will not comply. Is
[1:58] it like a circus act that I can't
[2:00] perform?
[2:01] >> Okay. Well, I think if you're
[2:03] neurologically impaired, we're all in
[2:04] trouble.
[2:04] >> Okay. Where should we begin? What should
[2:06] we talk about?
[2:07] >> Yeah. Well, Jimmy Carr, let me just
[2:08] introduce you and thank you for being
[2:10] here. It's great to actually finally
[2:12] meet you in person.
[2:13] >> Oh, well, thank you very much.
[2:15] >> I'm a uh I'm a fan of um kind of both
[2:19] sides of your composite. like I want to
[2:21] talk to you about, you [clears throat]
[2:22] know, your standup and and how you
[2:24] approach it. And you have this this new
[2:26] book on jokes, which you wrote with um
[2:28] two co-authors, um Amanda Baker and Abby
[2:32] Grant. And uh
[2:33] >> it's a you know, it's this great study
[2:35] of comedy that I think many aspiring
[2:38] funny people wish they had 20 years ago.
[2:40] I mean, I think it's it's very uh um
[2:43] it's be very useful for people because
[2:45] um you actually you just you analyze the
[2:47] structure of what's funny in a way
[2:49] that's very digestible and you basically
[2:51] doing postmortems on on many example
[2:54] jokes and uh it's a it's a good read.
[2:57] >> Well, hopefully it's more than just a um
[3:00] a dissection. The idea of the book is
[3:02] really to get more people involved. The
[3:04] idea is to kind of throw the rope ladder
[3:06] down and to help people up because
[3:08] >> I think we made a huge error in our
[3:11] culture.
[3:11] >> Like I'm talking like on a on a big
[3:13] scale. Yeah. When we moved from the
[3:14] villages to the cities,
[3:16] >> everyone used to be in a choir and
[3:18] everyone used to speak and everyone used
[3:21] to dance
[3:22] >> and then we move to the cities and
[3:24] everyone specializes and we have
[3:25] ballerinas and we have the opera and we
[3:28] have these specialists and we go and we
[3:29] watch them and it's we're in awe of how
[3:32] great they are. Yeah.
[3:33] >> And we're not the opposite of a
[3:35] spectator is not a professional, it's a
[3:37] participant.
[3:39] >> I get asked a lot
[3:40] >> or an amateur. An amateur is somebody
[3:41] who actually loves the the thing.
[3:43] >> Yeah. You can't And it's also that thing
[3:45] of like I I I think it's Mark Fischer's
[3:47] point of like um capitalist ontology.
[3:50] Everything's about like, well, can I
[3:51] make money doing this? People ask me,
[3:53] how do I get into comedy? And really,
[3:55] when you dig deeper, the question is,
[3:56] how can I make money doing comedy? You
[3:58] go, I don't know about that, but I know
[4:00] that you could do it. I know that
[4:02] [snorts] you could do five minutes in a
[4:04] club and you would enjoy it so much
[4:06] more. In the same way, it's very
[4:07] analogous to music comedy. Like if you
[4:09] can play the guitar even just a little
[4:10] bit, play a couple of chords, then the
[4:12] next time you go and see Oasis Live, you
[4:14] are so much more impressed by Nol's
[4:16] playing because you go, you can see how
[4:18] good this is,
[4:19] >> right?
[4:19] >> And I think comedy should be taught. I
[4:22] think it should be taught in schools
[4:23] because
[4:23] >> well the point you make in the book is
[4:25] that it's just so
[4:27] uh valuable in context that have nothing
[4:30] to do with aspiring to be a stand-up. I
[4:32] mean it's just like public speaking
[4:34] about anything, you know,
[4:35] >> but you're but first of all you're
[4:36] writing down and ordering your thoughts,
[4:37] right? So the the stage no one thinks
[4:39] about with comedy because we sort of
[4:40] make it look as if we're making it up as
[4:42] we go along. sitting down, writing down,
[4:45] ordering your thoughts, and then being
[4:47] able to communicate those to other
[4:48] people, and getting up and speaking in
[4:50] front of other people, getting getting
[4:52] over that. You know, it's that it's that
[4:54] um thorough um most men uh live lives of
[4:58] quiet desperation and go to the grave
[5:00] with the song still in their hearts.
[5:02] Like, most people never get to hear
[5:04] their own authentic voice. M
[5:07] >> and I want that for more people. I think
[5:09] as as our culture
[5:12] shifts and changes, I think as AI
[5:14] becomes more important, I think the
[5:16] things that it cannot do become more
[5:19] important. Uh so being more human,
[5:21] connecting to other people. I thought my
[5:23] job for years was the approximate reason
[5:24] for my job. The approximate reason for
[5:26] comedy is laughter. But the ultimate
[5:28] reason is connection,
[5:29] >> right? are connecting to other people
[5:31] and and people coming out in large
[5:33] groups
[5:34] >> or small groups like 50 people in a
[5:35] room. An audience is can be kind of as
[5:38] small as 30 people and they'll tell you
[5:40] with the the reliability with which they
[5:43] tell you what's funny and what isn't.
[5:45] >> And and it's humbling like I write the
[5:47] jokes but I don't write the show. The
[5:48] jokes you you kind of write them and
[5:50] then you try them and the audience go no
[5:52] or change it or write another one. I I
[5:55] prefer to just start again. write
[5:56] another one and then they tell you kind
[5:58] of what the show is going to be
[6:00] >> and it's, you know, it's obviously my
[6:02] audience are fairly they're uh it's
[6:05] self- selecting.
[6:05] >> Yeah. They know what they're coming for.
[6:07] >> Well, no one's offended at my show
[6:08] anymore cuz being offended at my show is
[6:10] like being, you know, scared.
[6:11] >> Is that the case? Because like you Well,
[6:13] first of all, you seem you invite
[6:14] hecklers. I mean, that's part of your
[6:16] your uh your approach. I mean, you do a
[6:19] lot of crowd work. Um, but um,
[6:21] >> well, I think I think there's a big
[6:22] difference between someone, you know,
[6:24] shouting something uh, abusive in the
[6:26] middle of a joke and [snorts] audience
[6:28] members joining in. I I would I would
[6:31] sort of say that my audience
[6:33] interactions, it's much more like saying
[6:34] there's a singalong section,
[6:36] >> right,
[6:36] >> in the chorus of the Bruce Springsteen
[6:38] song.
[6:38] >> So, they're not real hecklers. They're
[6:39] not trying to disrupt.
[6:40] >> They're not disrupting at all. And even
[6:42] if they are, it's with a sense of
[6:43] service to the evening. So, they could
[6:45] win. That's absolutely fine if they win
[6:47] as long as we all know that we're in
[6:49] service of this larger thing. We're kind
[6:51] of connecting and we can you have to be
[6:52] able to kind of take a joke and and
[6:54] thinking on your feet being able to kind
[6:56] of perform that um
[6:58] >> that trick.
[6:59] >> Yeah.
[6:59] >> It's because I think what does comedy do
[7:02] for society? Like you know the Overton
[7:04] window in politics, the most leftwing,
[7:06] the most right-wing thing you could say
[7:07] at a polite party, right? So, and that
[7:09] has shifted massively recently.
[7:11] >> Yeah.
[7:11] >> But I think there's a conversational
[7:13] Overton window. There's a there's an
[7:15] idea of a what the magic of comedy maybe
[7:19] happens the day afterwards with your
[7:21] partner with your um where you can talk
[7:23] about things a bit more freely. You have
[7:24] a you're more open to it. I think it
[7:27] we're
[7:28] >> Yeah. I mean, the thing was said, the
[7:30] thing's been said already by the comic,
[7:32] and it's it's the fact that you all
[7:34] laughed proved that it was within the
[7:37] boundary of this, whether even if it's a
[7:39] new boundary, like you've discovered the
[7:41] boundary.
[7:41] >> What Lenny Bruce did and then George
[7:43] Carlin and um Richard Prior, the idea
[7:46] people talking about their lives, their
[7:48] their personal lives in that way made us
[7:51] feel all a little bit more human because
[7:53] we all went, "Oh, we Oh, yeah. uh you
[7:56] know that that lovely line of uh not
[7:57] that I'm in any way suggesting I might
[7:59] be but in the work of genius we see our
[8:01] own neglected thoughts.
[8:03] >> I think it's often the way of like
[8:04] >> Seinfeld will do a bit and I'll go
[8:07] >> I've seen that a hundred times. How did
[8:09] I not see that? It's my job to see that
[8:10] and I didn't see that and it's so
[8:12] pleasing to us. The the haha moment is
[8:15] so close aha moment. I think it's
[8:18] cardaman. I think it's system one to
[8:20] system two thinking.
[8:22] >> Your brain is designed to not think.
[8:24] Your brain is designed to avoid thinking
[8:26] and see patterns. And so we go from
[8:28] system one thinking, you've read that,
[8:30] thinking fast and slowly. The idea of
[8:31] going it's 2 plus 2als 4 driving the
[8:33] car. Yeah. Think about that. It's easy,
[8:35] right? It's just it's not thinking.
[8:37] >> But if I ask you a complex maths
[8:39] problem, divide 13 by whatever it is. Um
[8:42] you have to actually think and really
[8:44] thinking is you're rewarded for it.
[8:48] jokes are Freud called them pleasure
[8:50] bribes
[8:51] >> to think um forbidden thoughts. I love
[8:54] that idea that you're you're kind of
[8:56] pushing people's boundaries and also
[8:58] you're sort of showing where the
[8:59] boundary is like you're crossing the
[9:00] line.
[9:01] >> Yeah. Well, I want to talk about the
[9:02] kind the ethics of all this but um I
[9:04] mean you mentioned AI. It seems that you
[9:06] are
[9:07] uh as AI proof as anyone can be because
[9:11] again so much of the value you're
[9:13] offering is bringing people together in
[9:16] the real world to laugh, right? Like
[9:18] like it's it's part of the the the the
[9:20] collective experience is
[9:23] >> I believe they say it's you laugh 30
[9:24] times more when you are with other
[9:27] people
[9:27] >> than on your own. Even at the funniest
[9:29] stuff you could imagine, your favorite
[9:30] show, but watching on your own. in the
[9:33] Christmas
[9:36] because the shows of Christmas are any
[9:37] better,
[9:39] but it's
[9:43] that experience of like the other
[9:45] mistake we made. We gathered around the
[9:47] fire and we spoke
[9:48] >> and then we gathered around the
[9:49] wireless. We listened to the radio as a
[9:51] family and then we gathered around the
[9:52] TV and we watched whatever was on. Like
[9:54] when I was growing up, we watched like
[9:57] everything. We watched
[9:58] >> it's a way of socializing. It's a very
[10:00] it's a it's a completely low stakes
[10:03] frictionfree way to Yeah. It's a thing
[10:05] you're you're reacting to. Yeah.
[10:07] >> Yeah. And then and then social media
[10:08] came along and suddenly we're siloed.
[10:12] >> And it's it's it's a it's a poison on
[10:14] our we are social creatures. We have a
[10:16] dispersed identity and there's a sense
[10:19] in which people now feel sealed off.
[10:22] >> Yeah. Yeah,
[10:23] >> if you think about the the ancient
[10:25] cultures, people were much more porous
[10:28] in terms of they, you know, spirits and
[10:30] uh beliefs and, you know, you could be
[10:32] possessed or whatever. And now people
[10:34] think of themselves as kind of
[10:35] hermetically sealed and not with a
[10:37] dispersed identity. I like to
[10:39] >> uh you know, I think the the AI thing,
[10:42] there's different visions of this,
[10:43] aren't there? There's a
[10:44] >> it feels like history really is
[10:46] repeating.
[10:47] >> It feels like this is the Manhattan
[10:49] Project
[10:50] >> once again. I mean, there's a there's a
[10:52] there's kind of a a rumor. I mean,
[10:54] they're pushing through at such speed.
[10:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. Although the Manhattan
[10:58] Project, you you can't really imagine
[11:00] that moving forward if every time you
[11:02] asked one of the principles, you know,
[11:04] Leo Zard or or Edward Teller or
[11:07] Oppenheimer, etc. Uh what's the chance
[11:10] you're going to ignite the atmosphere
[11:12] and kill everyone? And they were putting
[11:13] the probability at 10% or 20% or 30%.
[11:16] You can't imagine them moving forward,
[11:18] right? But that's the situation we're in
[11:20] with AI. It's like you ask you ask the
[11:21] principles who are actually doing the
[11:22] work. No one I mean with with with the
[11:26] exception of someone like Jensen Hang um
[11:29] and he's not you know he's not actually
[11:31] doing the work of you know building the
[11:32] models. He's just selling the chips. Um
[11:35] no none of them say the chance of
[11:38] catastrophic outcome is one in a million
[11:41] or one in 10 million. That's just not a
[11:44] sentence any of them have spoken.
[11:45] >> It's a very odd thing. I think it's the
[11:47] for me so my my view on AI is quite sort
[11:51] of spiritual in a way.
[11:52] >> I I don't think we were made in God's
[11:54] image,
[11:55] >> but I think we so wanted there to be a
[11:57] God. We created one in our image.
[11:59] >> So
[12:00] >> we I'll describe something to you. It's
[12:02] all powerful, all knowing, uh can
[12:04] perform miracles and lives in a cloud.
[12:07] >> Yeah.
[12:07] >> Well, there you go. It's and it's the
[12:09] idea that we go we are worshiping these
[12:12] things like there's there's a phone now
[12:14] asks for four hours a day and we give it
[12:17] our offering and we get a like
[12:21] >> and the like is uh it's the digital
[12:23] amen. Who's whose line is that? It's um
[12:25] Bong Hun I can never pronounce his name
[12:28] but he's a brilliant philosopher um
[12:29] writes these brilliant short books but
[12:31] the digital amen is such a great like
[12:33] it's it becomes like
[12:35] >> a religion because people are giving it
[12:37] their attention. Mhm.
[12:38] >> And for me AI is impressive,
[12:42] >> but you know that thing of the fourth
[12:43] humiliation.
[12:45] >> No.
[12:45] >> So there's been three three humiliations
[12:48] of men. Capernacus Capernicus Freud
[12:52] >> and then AI. We're so we're not the
[12:54] center of the universe.
[12:55] >> We're not the we're no different to the
[12:57] animals. We're not even in charge of our
[12:59] um minds. And now we're not the smartest
[13:02] thing in the room.
[13:03] >> It's another humiliation. Is the future
[13:05] going to be Star Trek because of this or
[13:08] Star Wars?
[13:08] >> Although, ironically, this humiliation
[13:10] is if the thesis in your book is correct
[13:14] and comedy is a craft that is teachable,
[13:17] it should be teachable to the the LLMs
[13:20] and we should at some point get
[13:22] superhuman funny,
[13:24] >> but they won't know what's funny because
[13:26] they won't know how to laugh. It's the
[13:28] connection. It's a it's a two-way piece
[13:30] of communication. I think I'm with
[13:32] McGillchrist on the AI thing. I think
[13:35] you know that the
[13:36] >> I actually haven't heard what he said
[13:37] about it.
[13:37] >> Well, I I don't know if he said this,
[13:38] but I think it's I think it's implicit
[13:40] in the mastering chemistry. The idea
[13:42] that um AI is is leftbrain activity. It
[13:47] can do um leftbrain complicated things
[13:51] incredibly well, but it cannot do
[13:53] rightrain gestalt tasks at all. Just
[13:57] give it time. I mean you you'd have to
[13:59] have some argument as to in principle
[14:01] why what the right brain is doing is
[14:05] right isn't substrate independent.
[14:07] >> Well, okay. So the the the heavy lift
[14:10] the complicated stuff is easy
[14:13] >> and the easy stuff is hard, right?
[14:15] That's that's the broadly speaking we
[14:17] get there is 4,000 years old. Yeah.
[14:20] Okay. And walking and folding your shirt
[14:22] can't be done by AI because that's 40
[14:24] million years old. So, it won't get to
[14:26] that in a hurry now.
[14:29] >> But will it get to that? That's
[14:30] >> But will it get to that? Well, well,
[14:31] sure it'll get to that. We've we've been
[14:33] here before. There's been the Manhattan
[14:35] Project. We created something
[14:37] >> um that can destroy the world.
[14:40] >> Yeah.
[14:40] >> Um you know,
[14:43] uh and we've lived with it for 80 years
[14:46] now.
[14:47] >> Yeah. And basically forgotten about it.
[14:48] I mean, most of us most of the time have
[14:50] have just forgotten that this
[14:51] >> Well, who wrote that incredible book
[14:52] about I think you had her on here. the
[14:54] incredible book about
[14:55] >> No, Annie Jacobson.
[14:56] >> She wrote the one about I didn't have
[14:58] her on the pandemic thing recently. The
[15:00] same
[15:00] >> I want to have her on. She's written two
[15:02] terrifying books.
[15:03] >> I mean, really properly terrifying. I've
[15:05] had other worried people to talk about
[15:07] nuclear.
[15:07] >> Maybe this should be the Halloween
[15:08] episode. You get her on to talk about
[15:10] those two books because never mind
[15:11] Freddy Krueger. Those are scary books.
[15:14] >> Death by ice or death by fire. Yeah.
[15:15] >> Yeah. But but that thing of like going
[15:17] um the the idea humanity has always been
[15:21] on the brink of these things, right? we
[15:22] we push ourselves forward and there's
[15:25] religious analogies in large language
[15:27] models to towers of Babel and the idea
[15:30] that we're
[15:32] >> history is sort of
[15:35] cyclical. We're going through this.
[15:38] We're going through something now. It's
[15:39] undeniable.
[15:40] >> The cycles might be four hours long at
[15:41] this point. I mean, it's like there's an
[15:43] acceleration that is undeniable in terms
[15:46] of cultural change and technological
[15:48] change.
[15:48] >> Well, it does feel like that point that
[15:50] someone made about if if Watergate
[15:52] happened today or Bill Clinton and
[15:53] Monica Lewinsky. I mean, it might get 48
[15:55] hours. I don't think Monica Lewinsky
[15:57] would last 48 hours in a news cycle now.
[15:59] There's other stuff going on. It's just
[16:02] >> the first time I noticed that it just
[16:05] truly indelibly was when we had the the
[16:07] largest mass shooting in American
[16:09] history in Vegas.
[16:11] >> And it it left the news cycle in like 48
[16:15] hours. I mean, I don't even I don't even
[16:16] remember the shooter's name. This is a
[16:18] measure of just how
[16:19] >> good memory that was.
[16:20] >> I really do like that New Zealand thing
[16:22] where they don't name the shooter.
[16:23] >> Yeah.
[16:24] >> I love that. I think that's that's very
[16:25] smart because I think a lot of
[16:26] >> times I know they named the shooter but
[16:28] just it just we never figured out his
[16:29] motive and we moved on to what whatever
[16:32] Trump said next and it was gone. It was
[16:34] just well that thing with the okay is
[16:38] Trump contingent or convergent? So I
[16:42] read a lot of that Neil H the fourth
[16:43] turning
[16:44] >> book I really like which is kind of a re
[16:46] um a rehash of Viko
[16:49] >> uh which is kind of the basis for
[16:50] Finnegan's wake.
[16:51] >> Yeah. Well, I'm I'm a little allergic to
[16:53] these notions of history having a this
[16:56] hidden structure, but I mean it's a
[16:58] little bit like a
[16:59] >> I like the I like that.
[17:00] >> I mean, I just simpifiable in some way.
[17:04] >> Well, yeah, it is unfalsifiable, but you
[17:05] go we've been through very very tough
[17:07] times before. Okay. And there's the uh
[17:10] end of history um delusion. We all think
[17:13] we're living in the end of times
[17:15] [clears throat]
[17:15] >> and maybe this time is different.
[17:16] >> Somebody's going to be right. Yeah.
[17:19] Well, are they or is this the beginning
[17:21] of infinity? Are we going to get
[17:23] through?
[17:24] >> Well, in either case, it's this it's an
[17:25] inflection point unlike an inflection
[17:27] point 500 years ago where you know you
[17:30] one person couldn't destroy the lives of
[17:32] millions in in the same way. It's like
[17:34] like we're living in a world now where
[17:37] >> it's it's not only conceivable but
[17:39] foreseeable that you know somebody the
[17:41] wrong technology in the hands of some
[17:43] malicious person can create a
[17:45] civilizational problem. thinking about
[17:46] the things in like we're choosing what
[17:48] to think about, right? So, if you point
[17:50] our attention at broken arrows, right?
[17:52] These are missing nuclear warheads of
[17:55] which I think America has six
[17:57] >> and the former Soviet Union has.
[18:00] >> Yeah, we don't know.
[18:01] >> Well, they some submarines went down and
[18:03] and uh presumably we know where they
[18:05] are, but they the warheads weren't
[18:07] recovering
[18:07] >> presumably. Sure. I'll just go and check
[18:09] with my people. I mean, no
[18:10] [clears throat] one knows. And you we've
[18:11] chosen just not to worry about that
[18:13] thing.
[18:14] >> Yeah. We've chosen not to be concerned
[18:15] with that and we're concerned with this
[18:16] now. So, we're focusing our attention
[18:18] and saying, "Well, this could be the
[18:20] problem." But I think the thing about
[18:21] black swan events is they're black swan
[18:23] events. You you you know that that tell
[18:26] I love the idea that it's going to be a
[18:28] surprise. Whatever happens next, no one
[18:30] really saw COVID h coming. No one saw
[18:34] the pandemic coming. People had said,
[18:36] "Oh, a pandemic can
[18:37] >> Well, we we knew a pandemic was
[18:39] guaranteed to come." I mean, that's just
[18:41] that's just a you keep rolling the same
[18:43] die again and again, you're going to get
[18:45] every conceivable number. And and uh we
[18:48] know that, you know, this is having
[18:51] nothing to do with human engineered
[18:53] pandemics, which is an additional
[18:55] problem.
[18:55] >> But the idea
[18:57] >> gain of function research.
[18:59] >> Oh, yeah.
[18:59] >> Just I mean, insanity looking for a gas
[19:01] leak with a lit match. It's just like
[19:04] the the madness that that would in
[19:06] anyone would think, oh, that's a good
[19:07] idea. But when they when they you know
[19:09] wiped out polio and they kept some you
[19:11] go who's in charge of this what are you
[19:14] thinking
[19:15] >> well keeping like again they're kind of
[19:17] gradations to the stupidity you can see
[19:19] how viologists got there in
[19:23] in their first steps like I mean just
[19:26] going into caves looking for bats that
[19:28] are carrying something that that has
[19:30] pandemic properties and you think you're
[19:33] sort of getting ahead of the problem
[19:34] right like like somebody analogized this
[19:37] to you know putting wanted posters out
[19:39] for, you know, the most dangerous
[19:40] criminals, right? Like like we want to
[19:42] figure out what the risks are so that we
[19:44] can understand them. But now that we can
[19:46] spin up a vaccine, now we can we can
[19:48] sequence a whole genome in, you know,
[19:51] less than 24 hours and spin up a vaccine
[19:53] in a weekend. Uh the the the the head
[19:56] start is a is is is nothing now. We
[19:58] don't need a head start. And we
[19:59] certainly don't need to be grabbing
[20:00] these viruses, working with them,
[20:02] improving them, and then spilling them
[20:04] on our
[20:05] >> becomes it becomes a weapon. It becomes
[20:08] a you know, so that thing of like will
[20:10] AI be like a will it take away the
[20:13] drudgery? Will we look back and say,
[20:15] well, you know, work in the same way we
[20:17] look back at slavery and go, "Oh my god,
[20:19] how do we let that happen? How do we let
[20:20] people toil?" 200 years ago, everyone
[20:23] worked on a farm effectively, right? 98%
[20:25] of the population worked in agriculture
[20:28] and we are the first people that have
[20:30] had to ask ourselves some questions
[20:33] right so um will I get married shall I
[20:37] have kids do I believe in God these are
[20:40] new questions for our culture there you
[20:44] know no wonder people are struggling
[20:46] because we've um privatized
[20:49] >> mental health problems we we've we've
[20:51] coded anxiety and depression as a
[20:54] personal failure
[20:55] rather than a structural problem, a
[20:57] collective action problem with the way
[20:59] that our society operates.
[21:01] >> And it strikes me that that's a uh a
[21:04] mistake. That's like we're actually are
[21:06] we arranging our society in a way that
[21:07] is conducive to people feeling good.
[21:11] Well, I think we've done both sides of
[21:13] this and and and and neither
[21:16] have been the proper correctives like so
[21:19] so on on the on the one hand, yes, we've
[21:21] uh we've privatized um mental health,
[21:25] but also we've we've destigmatized it
[21:28] significantly and even among young
[21:30] people, you have these bizarre social
[21:32] contagions where they're acquiring
[21:34] conditions that they think are fun to
[21:36] have. Like
[21:37] >> we've pathized perfectly normal human
[21:39] behavior. So
[21:40] >> and there's a cult of victimhood that
[21:41] gets
[21:42] >> Yeah. There's no such thing as worry
[21:43] anymore. It's anxiety. There's no such
[21:45] thing as sadness. It's depression
[21:46] >> and everyone has ADHD which is horrific
[21:50] because the people that actually have it
[21:51] can't get the resource that they need
[21:54] because everyone is complaining of the
[21:55] same thing. So it's like you
[21:57] >> or at one moment on TikTok there were
[21:59] people complaining of Tourette's, you
[22:00] know, or or or Tourette's.
[22:03] >> I naturally just swear a lot.
[22:04] >> Yeah. That's right.
[22:05] >> Yeah. Well, I want I want to talk about
[22:08] big picture issues and I I want to get
[22:10] your look on on what's happening to
[22:12] culture. You know, I mean, you travel so
[22:14] much. I I looked at your tour schedule.
[22:16] It's it's amazing with 50 countries now.
[22:19] I mean, you're a massochist or you're uh
[22:21] you're Jesus. I don't know how to
[22:23] understand how you're spending your
[22:24] time, but how many how many dates a year
[22:26] are you doing?
[22:27] >> Maybe 200 dates, maybe 300 shows cuz you
[22:31] do two a day, right?
[22:32] >> Incredible.
[22:33] >> Which one? I I don't know about that,
[22:34] but I I love it. I think I'm the hardest
[22:36] working man in comedy, which is like
[22:38] being the best looking guy in the Burns
[22:39] unit,
[22:40] >> right? It's like it's not really
[22:42] everyone else is doing nothing.
[22:43] >> Yeah.
[22:44] >> But it's the it's not like with my job,
[22:47] it's not about repetition. It's about
[22:48] iteration.
[22:49] >> So, it's about trying different things
[22:51] every night. Like you try new jokes, you
[22:53] try
[22:54] >> What percent would you say you're
[22:55] folding in new material each night?
[22:57] >> Like at the end of the show, I'll
[22:58] literally get out a piece of paper and
[22:59] mark off new jokes at every show. And
[23:03] some of those are like things you've
[23:04] tried a couple of times. You're like
[23:06] you're going, "Okay, that's ready. I can
[23:07] bank that for the next show." And some
[23:09] of them you're trying to reword or get
[23:10] right and see what the audience like.
[23:12] But it's it's really fun to do. And then
[23:14] sometimes it's the audience bits.
[23:15] Something comes out of that.
[23:16] >> Yeah. So I mean you're doing your
[23:19] routine which presumably you have worked
[23:21] out to to the word but then
[23:23] >> then you're inviting
[23:26] audience participation and you're doing
[23:28] crowd work which is a very different
[23:30] kind of highwire act. become very
[23:32] different because it was for years the
[23:35] heckling bit was just like heckle put
[23:37] downs and your mama jokes and it was it
[23:40] was very fun to do but now it's become
[23:43] something slightly different. I in the
[23:45] pandemic I wrote a book which was kind
[23:48] of an auto we sold it to the publisher
[23:50] as an autobiography and then we kind of
[23:52] under the wire we slipped in kind of a
[23:54] self-help book
[23:55] >> and it's been very rewarding because
[23:57] it's kind of I've kind of opened up a
[23:59] little bit more the last 5 years and
[24:01] started talking about authentically and
[24:03] I think it's resonated with um a certain
[24:06] cohort that you know want to talk and
[24:09] they'll kind of you know they'll ask me
[24:12] they they they kind of trust me a little
[24:13] bit
[24:14] >> I think that thing about
[24:15] >> well well so so but that's somewhat
[24:18] paradoxical because because you can be
[24:21] very mean too so like so where's the
[24:24] line here because you're you're very
[24:26] compassionate and I'm I'm thinking of um
[24:28] your crowd work in particular so you so
[24:30] you're you're responding to something
[24:33] that you're getting from the audience
[24:35] and you can go very hard against that
[24:37] person you mean making fun of the way
[24:39] they look and or you know making fun of
[24:40] the way their wife looks or I mean every
[24:42] permutation of that And yet
[24:46] you're you're successful. I mean, maybe
[24:49] there moments where this totally fails
[24:51] and you lose the audience, but from
[24:52] everything I've seen, you're keeping the
[24:54] audience on side and there's this
[24:56] understanding that you're actually a
[25:00] good guy and there's like you're not
[25:02] you're not actually trying to to hurt
[25:04] anybody and yet there's very like and so
[25:06] there's I'm just wondering how you bound
[25:08] this game so that everyone plays it and
[25:11] enjoys it or and I think it's what is it
[25:14] failure mode where you you say something
[25:15] which that you regret and someone is
[25:17] really offended or what happens?
[25:19] >> It's um it's friendship at scale
[25:23] >> is my job, right? So, you got that thing
[25:24] of going actually you can be really
[25:26] funny with someone and a bit scathing
[25:28] and take the piss out of them, but it's
[25:31] that's kind of what friends do. And
[25:33] there's an intimacy to that. And it's
[25:35] also what are we doing here? Well, we're
[25:38] having this is kind of a weird safe
[25:40] space. You're like a uh a Loki, like a
[25:44] like a trickster god. and the idea that
[25:46] you're allowed to say these unsayable
[25:48] things and we're all in this room where
[25:50] we're allowed to laugh at these things.
[25:52] So, it's a a filter. It's the it's the
[25:55] inoculation. It's it's looking at the
[25:58] stake on the staff,
[25:59] >> but but in a different context, it would
[26:01] just be mean, right? I mean, it might be
[26:03] funny, but it's still But a joke that is
[26:05] so fully at some person's expense is it
[26:10] can't it can't be exported to every
[26:12] other context, right? like some
[26:13] someone's coming there almost it's
[26:15] almost like a religious ritual where
[26:17] your audience is coming you're the
[26:19] priest uh and the audience is coming to
[26:23] have like they're granting their
[26:25] attention to you in a way that allows
[26:27] for a ritual of which would otherwise be
[26:31] a ritual of humili be a humiliation but
[26:34] here it's everyone is enjoying it
[26:36] >> yes so I think that thing about if you
[26:38] take away anything that could be
[26:39] offensive to anyone you are left with
[26:41] juggling and someone would complain that
[26:43] the balls are the wrong color. So you
[26:45] go, "Okay, so you can't." So you take
[26:46] that off the table to begin with. You
[26:47] just go, "Right, as long as I'm I'm an
[26:49] equal opportunities offender. As long as
[26:51] I'm hitting everyone fairly equally, it
[26:54] feels like you're not loading onto you
[26:56] don't have something that you're trying
[26:57] to push.
[26:58] >> Like it feels like they're just jokes.
[27:01] It's a it's a category error for you to
[27:04] say, "Hey, some sometimes your jokes
[27:06] aren't kind enough." No, no, no. I
[27:07] wasn't trying to be kind. I was trying
[27:09] to get massive laughs for a minute for
[27:11] two hours. That's what I was trying to
[27:13] do. And it worked. And the idea of
[27:16] going, if it's not kind enough, then you
[27:18] you're at the wrong kind of show. And
[27:20] yet you can have moments within that.
[27:24] It gets sharpened up when you're again
[27:26] your your your routine is what it is.
[27:29] And it can be, you know, very edgy,
[27:31] very, you know, quote offensive. Um, but
[27:35] when you're doing crowd work and you're
[27:37] talking to one person in the audience
[27:38] and so every so you have thousands of
[27:40] people's attention on an or an an
[27:42] ordinary civilian, right, that you're
[27:44] now talking to
[27:45] >> and you're commenting on the way he
[27:48] looks or the way she looks, right?
[27:50] >> Yeah.
[27:50] >> Um, it it's obvious to see how that
[27:54] could go wrong, right? Like I mean like
[27:55] it could just be too like have you ever
[27:57] have you ever done crowd work where you
[28:00] feel like you just objectively crossed
[28:02] the line and and you just felt bad about
[28:04] how that all went or apologized from the
[28:06] stage.
[28:07] >> There are worse things in war and one of
[28:10] them is believing there's nothing worth
[28:11] fighting for.
[28:13] >> And I think we're on track to be in a
[28:16] war. But are we pointing AI at the wrong
[28:18] thing? Leaders are going to come in now
[28:20] and they're going to to quote Thomas
[28:22] there's no solutions only trade-offs.
[28:24] [music]
[28:24] >> Yeah. They're going to say, "The world
[28:25] isn't safe. We're going to promise you
[28:27] safety, and all it's going to cost you
[28:30] is your freedom.