Transcript
[0:00] Hello friends. I'm bringing a brand new
[0:02] live show across the UK and Ireland this
[0:05] October. It's stories, psychology,
[0:06] audience Q&As's, and whatever happens
[0:08] when thousands of overthinkers
[0:10] voluntarily leave the house and end up
[0:11] in the same room together. I'd love to
[0:12] see you there. The last tour completely
[0:14] sold out, so make sure that you snag
[0:16] tickets now using the link in the
[0:18] description or heading to Chris
[0:20] Williamson. Dublin's already sold out.
[0:22] Loads of venues are limited. Tickets are
[0:24] very limited, so get yours now. Chris
[0:26] Williamson.
[0:27] Why did you get interested in
[0:28] researching emotionally sensitive
[0:30] people?
[0:31] >> Because I am an emotionally sensitive
[0:33] person. And I think also just from my
[0:36] body of work seeing patients,
[0:39] you just start to see patterns of people
[0:41] becoming
[0:43] more or falling into the pattern of
[0:46] being emotionally sensitive.
[0:47] >> And what does that look like? What's the
[0:49] experience of life like for someone
[0:50] who's an emotionally sensitive person?
[0:52] You know, I think it's different for
[0:54] each person. But I think one of the
[0:56] bigger overarching things is that these
[0:59] are the people who feel things quickly,
[1:01] deeply, and for a long time.
[1:04] >> Okay. What would be the sort of way that
[1:06] they spend their days? Like they're
[1:08] going about their day. What will be some
[1:09] of the habits, some of the mental uh
[1:12] experiences that they go through?
[1:13] >> Yeah. So, I think a lot of times people
[1:15] with emotional sensitivity because
[1:17] they're taking in so much emotional
[1:19] data, they are overanalyzing every
[1:23] interaction and reading it for am I
[1:26] doing something weird? Is this other
[1:27] person doing something weird? Are you
[1:28] mad at me? They're just interpreting and
[1:32] re-evaluating every single interaction,
[1:34] which takes up a lot of brain power
[1:37] throughout the day. Mhm.
[1:39] >> The other thing that they do is you see
[1:40] a tremendous amount of time spent where
[1:43] you're already predicting that that
[1:44] could be an issue. So they are changing
[1:46] their behavior. They're masking
[1:48] behavior. They're overcompensating for
[1:50] certain things. So there's there's work
[1:53] that's being done within interactions on
[1:55] a day-to-day basis and there's stuff
[1:56] that they're also anticipating these
[1:59] possible interactions.
[2:00] >> Oh, that's interesting. So even silence
[2:02] and in preparation people are
[2:05] interpreting that with a particular lens
[2:07] as well.
[2:08] >> Mhm.
[2:09] >> Right. That's interesting. What about
[2:11] criticism? What's the relationship like
[2:12] with criticism?
[2:13] >> I don't think anybody in the universe
[2:15] likes criticism. But I think when you
[2:17] look at rejection sensitive dysphoria,
[2:20] which is a neurological phenomenon we're
[2:21] talking about,
[2:23] it is this robust emotional sometimes
[2:27] physical response to rejection or
[2:30] criticism. So it's not just like, okay,
[2:33] that happened and that really hurt my
[2:34] feelings and that sucks. It's I feel
[2:38] like the air has been pushed out of my
[2:40] lungs. I don't know if I can recover
[2:41] from this. And it becomes this thing
[2:44] that instead of being like, "Okay, well,
[2:45] I'm chewing on this and it's annoying."
[2:48] It becomes this thing that consumes
[2:50] them. And can it be as significant as to
[2:53] look like a major depressive episode?
[2:56] >> It feels like a fear of disappointing
[2:59] other people is kind of quite central to
[3:01] this.
[3:01] >> Yeah, it can be,
[3:02] >> right? Why?
[3:04] >> I think it it stems from this fear of
[3:08] rejection or criticism. So, if you're
[3:10] going to disappoint someone, you you
[3:11] don't want that the other person to be
[3:13] upset with you. You don't want them to
[3:14] reject you. You don't want them to think
[3:15] badly of you. You don't want them to
[3:17] criticize you. And so, you're dealing
[3:19] with this very complicated phenomenon
[3:22] that's coming at you. All of these
[3:24] emotions happening at once and you're
[3:25] trying to process them in real time.
[3:27] >> Is rejection sensitive dysphoria the
[3:30] same thing as being a highly sensitive
[3:31] person? Is there something like
[3:33] sufficient necessary but not sufficient
[3:35] in here?
[3:36] >> Well, okay. So, here's my deal. So,
[3:38] highly sensitive person. I mean, I think
[3:40] that was a it's not a clinical term, but
[3:42] that that came about um years and years
[3:45] ago. Um and it's talking about highly
[3:48] sensitive to everything. So, not just
[3:50] emotions, but sounds, lights, everything
[3:54] you're sensitive to.
[3:55] >> Okay.
[3:56] >> When I talk about rejection, sensitive
[3:59] dysphoria, I'm putting that on a
[4:00] spectrum of emotional sensitivity. So in
[4:03] terms of there are some people that you
[4:06] know emotions and emotional data doesn't
[4:09] impact them that tremendously on a
[4:10] day-to-day basis and they kind of roll
[4:13] along their day and and maybe it could
[4:14] be a little bit off median where they're
[4:17] like you probably could afford being a
[4:19] little bit more emotional. Um there's
[4:22] people who you know this it they have
[4:24] healthy ups and downs and then there are
[4:26] other people who emotional data can just
[4:29] sink them with things which might be
[4:32] completely out of proportion to what the
[4:33] stimulus is happening.
[4:34] >> Right? Okay. So when you've got highly
[4:36] sensitive people they might be highly
[4:37] sensitive to emotions but also light
[4:41] sound uh busyiness chaos etc.
[4:46] RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yes.
[4:49] >> Is specifically an emotional uh angle
[4:52] that we're looking at here. Why the word
[4:54] rejection sensitive? Why not emotionally
[4:56] sensitive dysphoria?
[4:58] >> It's a good question. I think you know
[5:00] this this term was coined by uh Dr. Dr.
[5:03] William Dodson who was brilliant and
[5:04] brought this up and I think when he was
[5:06] looking at that kind of longitudinal
[5:08] data with patients a lot of them were
[5:11] responding to that rejection and that
[5:14] criticism that would trigger this kind
[5:15] of profound emotional response.
[5:19] >> Um so I think those are two really big
[5:22] cases that it could happen. But, you
[5:24] know, I I think we need to start
[5:26] expanding and talking about emotional
[5:28] sensitivity just in general
[5:31] >> because then you can start talking about
[5:32] emotional dysregulation and that really
[5:34] I think becomes one of the things that
[5:36] we have been missing talking about with
[5:38] ADHD and anxiety and things like that
[5:40] for years and years and years.
[5:41] >> Okay. Why does social rejection hurt so
[5:44] much?
[5:46] >> How much time do you have? [laughter]
[5:49] It's one of those things that you know
[5:51] you look at um there are many different
[5:54] reasons that this is so painful
[5:58] neurobiologically
[6:00] there is inherently a dopamine
[6:02] imbalance. So what's happening is that
[6:05] your brain already is you know
[6:08] struggling to emotionally regulate. So
[6:10] something happens and instead of being
[6:12] like okay we can work with this it's
[6:14] just that you're shot down and you're
[6:16] right now then you get suspended in this
[6:19] low mood highly anxious mood where
[6:21] you're spinning and chewing on this for
[6:22] hours and hours. Another reason this
[6:24] happens is that people who are highly
[6:26] emotionally sensitive a lot of times
[6:28] there are two areas of the brain that
[6:29] are really impacted by this. The first
[6:31] one is the amydala which is your threat
[6:33] receptor. So that in this in these cases
[6:37] is very highly attuned to picking up
[6:40] emotional data. So your brain is picking
[6:43] up this seemingly negative data and then
[6:47] the frontal lobe which is in charge of
[6:49] judgment and processing and decision-m
[6:51] which should be able to be like this
[6:52] isn't that big of a deal that isn't as
[6:55] active. So now you have this highly
[6:57] active threat receptor and this poorly
[7:01] responsive frontal lobe and you're just
[7:04] you're that emotional train is running
[7:06] away.
[7:06] >> Right. So
[7:08] okay explain to me the
[7:11] underlying neuroscience of why emotional
[7:14] sensitivity exists like what is
[7:16] happening inside of the brain of
[7:17] somebody that is an emotionally
[7:18] sensitive person.
[7:20] >> So I think it depends on a lot of
[7:22] things. The first one is what I talked
[7:24] about like that highly responsive
[7:26] amydala and that poorly responsive
[7:28] frontal lobe. You have, you know, you
[7:30] feel things before you actually think
[7:32] about them logically.
[7:34] >> The second thing is dopamine
[7:37] dysregulation. Dopamine is that thing
[7:39] that helps you it it's very multiaceted.
[7:42] It helps with many different things, but
[7:43] when you feel things, you're less able
[7:47] to regulate because of that.
[7:49] >> What's happening with the dopamine? Are
[7:50] these people with high dopamine baseline
[7:51] with low dopamine baseline with low
[7:53] catakolamine clearance? Like what's
[7:54] going on?
[7:55] >> So I want to say low, but it's not it's
[7:58] not as simple as that. It's that there's
[8:00] not enough dopamine at the right place
[8:02] at the right time. So
[8:04] >> what would that do if they had that
[8:05] dopamine? It would help them to be able
[8:07] to weather the ups and downs,
[8:09] >> regulate better.
[8:10] >> Right. Okay. So you know the comt
[8:12] variant. Okay. So I'm coma, right? So
[8:14] I've got two copies of it. um and a
[8:17] bunch of others like that come along
[8:19] polymorphisms that come along with that
[8:20] similarly. That means that for me if
[8:22] stuff's chaotic it's really hard for me
[8:24] to focus but if things are a little bit
[8:27] more predictable and less ambiguous it's
[8:29] hard to get me to stop.
[8:30] >> So for me environment design is really
[8:32] important. Um but it also means I had
[8:35] this really great interaction with chat
[8:37] GPT where I sent my genetic data to it
[8:39] and had a conversation with it and said
[8:41] hey imagine you know nothing about me.
[8:42] tell me what sort of a person you think
[8:44] I would be just based on my genetic
[8:46] data. And it came back with all of these
[8:48] really interesting insights. One of the
[8:49] things it said was you would make a
[8:51] great
[8:52] >> detective and a a horrible SWAT operator
[8:55] that someone who is in a relatively
[8:58] controlled environment focused on one
[9:01] quite complex task,
[9:02] >> great. someone who's got these big peaks
[9:05] and troughs of intensity and then has to
[9:07] come back down and then has to do it
[9:08] again. That is worse for me because my
[9:11] ability to sort of clear off a lot of
[9:12] the adrenaline, the catacolamine. So
[9:14] that is what I was thinking about when
[9:15] it comes to the dopamine side of things
[9:17] that some people are able to be
[9:20] airplanes as Stantin calls them. They
[9:22] can sort of go up and down quite quickly
[9:23] but they have less depth and some people
[9:25] are submarines which is that they have
[9:26] way more depth but it takes some time to
[9:28] come back up. So that was what was
[9:29] interesting about the dopamine thing but
[9:31] keep going. So you've got
[9:32] >> the dopamine side
[9:33] >> the dopamine side you have the
[9:34] norepinephrine side which is like that
[9:36] fueling that very physical response. So
[9:38] it's not a lot of times with this
[9:40] rejection sensitivity it's not just I
[9:44] feel bad then something bad happened.
[9:46] It's I I can't breathe. I feel like my
[9:50] ribs hurt. I'm feeling chest pain. And
[9:52] I'm feel like a lot of times people
[9:54] think that they're having an anxiety
[9:55] attack or they think they're having a
[9:56] heart attack and it's truly just that
[9:58] rejection sensitivity and it's because
[10:01] of that surge of norepinephrine that's
[10:03] spilling those alarm chemicals telling
[10:05] your body that something bad is
[10:06] happening. So your brain at this point
[10:08] it's not just that your brain is you're
[10:10] psyching yourself up into like you know
[10:13] someone didn't text me back and you know
[10:15] they must be you [clears throat] know
[10:17] it's they're mad at me or something like
[10:19] that. Your body is telling you that
[10:21] there is a problem. You are panicked,
[10:23] your heart rate is up, you are sweating,
[10:26] you're tremulous. So you think there's
[10:28] something wrong because your body is
[10:30] responding that way.
[10:32] >> So we've talked about
[10:34] >> dopamine, norepinephrine, you said the
[10:36] amydala.
[10:37] >> Yes.
[10:37] >> Yeah.
[10:38] >> Um
[10:38] >> but imagine presumably for people the
[10:40] reason that we have a PFC is in an
[10:43] attempt to be able to control the
[10:44] amydala. So it has to be the
[10:46] relationship between the two.
[10:47] >> It's a linkage between the two. There's
[10:49] there not only are we dealing with a
[10:51] hyperactive amydala and underactive
[10:54] prefrontal cortex, but the linkage
[10:56] between them is also frayed.
[10:58] >> Okay. So, in this sort of a situ I guess
[11:01] this would I'm thinking about the SWAT
[11:02] operator. You know what else comes to
[11:03] mind? Dana White when he was in the room
[11:07] at the correspondence dinner where that
[11:10] guy tried to shoot the president and
[11:12] everybody else has sort of ducked down.
[11:14] I don't know whether you've seen this
[11:15] video. Can you try and get the video up
[11:16] of Dana? to say Dana White
[11:18] correspondents dinner reaction and it's
[11:21] him as an active shooter comes in and
[11:23] you hear the gunshots go off, right?
[11:25] Because the uh guy that was the shooter
[11:27] shot a couple of Secret Service people
[11:28] and then he gets taken down. Like what's
[11:30] even happening with that guy? Like do we
[11:32] even know I now I'm interested in
[11:34] whether or not it's another You know
[11:36] what's crazy? There's multiple
[11:38] presidential assassins like just in the
[11:41] legal system at the moment. Has there
[11:42] ever been multiple
[11:44] >> [ __ ]
[11:46] >> presidential assassins in the legal
[11:48] system at the same time? Cuz the guy in
[11:50] Utah is currently being uh like he's
[11:54] he's in trial at the moment. And then
[11:55] the dude that did the other one, he's
[11:57] also being taken. It's like a get in the
[11:58] queue. Um uh yeah, this one this this
[12:01] this
[12:02] >> inside they started
[12:06] all of a sudden it just started getting
[12:07] noisy. tables getting flipped over, guys
[12:09] running in with guns, and uh they were
[12:11] screaming, "Get down." I didn't get
[12:14] down. It wasing awesome. I literally
[12:16] took every minute of it in. And
[12:18] >> the video, so I see if you can find the
[12:20] actual video, dude. So again, that
[12:22] that's what's happened. This assassin's
[12:23] gone in. Dana White's actual reaction
[12:25] when he sat down in the room is
[12:30] okay.
[12:31] >> Everybody else is under the table and he
[12:32] just can't all he wants is so my point
[12:34] being that uh amydala prefrontal cortex
[12:38] thing.
[12:38] >> Yeah.
[12:38] >> Obviously the triggering of his fear
[12:41] center hasn't kicked in and he's able to
[12:44] go isn't this like full access to his
[12:47] ability to think. Isn't this
[12:48] interesting? I think this is a memory
[12:50] that would be worth me encoding for a
[12:52] while. I'm having a good time.
[12:54] You know what I mean? I would I would
[12:56] >> maybe an underactive amydala for that
[12:57] guy.
[12:58] >> That's what I would say, too. Yeah. This
[12:59] is it. Look at this. Look at his face.
[13:07] >> Absolute kid in a candy store like just
[13:10] having the best time.
[13:16] >> Actively smiling. Like, forget the
[13:18] active shooter. Active smiler.
[13:20] [laughter]
[13:21] Yeah, that's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you
[13:24] know what I mean? Like, isn't that an
[13:26] interesting response from somebody
[13:28] else's?
[13:29] >> I get what you mean. Um, I think that
[13:31] there is like again when you look at
[13:34] like just neurohysiology and the brain
[13:36] is so fascinating for so many different
[13:38] reasons, but like when you actually
[13:39] understand what areas of the brain do
[13:42] what and the connections between them,
[13:44] you can see it in human behaviors and
[13:45] patterns. It's wild.
[13:47] >> What about the lyic system?
[13:48] >> Yeah, lyic system. So lyic system is
[13:51] important because that's really talking
[13:52] about like that emotional circuitry in
[13:54] general. And so when you are dealing
[13:57] with big emotional data that may or may
[14:01] not be justified, right? It it may it
[14:03] might just be that you perceived this
[14:05] rejection or criticism or emotional data
[14:08] coming in. Your lyic system just goes
[14:10] wild. Areas are lighting up. You're
[14:12] communicating as if like this big
[14:14] emotional response is happening and
[14:16] you're trying to navigate that in real
[14:18] time. M is it right to say that some
[14:20] people feel emotions more than others?
[14:23] Yes.
[14:23] >> Is that a fair assessment?
[14:24] >> Yes.
[14:24] >> Okay. What do we mean when we say that?
[14:26] >> Well, I mean, if you think about like
[14:28] emotions in general, like when you're
[14:30] talking about feeling emotions, you're
[14:31] talking about perceiving them. That's
[14:33] the first step that happens. You're
[14:35] talking about then experiencing them in
[14:38] the moment and then you're talking about
[14:39] how long you spend on that emotion
[14:41] afterwards, right? So there are people
[14:43] that you know you can walk into a room,
[14:46] you already know something weird is
[14:48] happening. You can feel like an
[14:50] emotional and I I give the example of
[14:52] like someone walking into a room with
[14:56] like a complicated social interactions
[14:59] all over the place and they can just,
[15:00] you know, they say to me like something
[15:02] feels off or there's there's something
[15:04] in the air. They say something like that
[15:06] and they're referring to like picking
[15:08] up. So because what they're doing is
[15:09] they're scanning the room. Not only are
[15:12] they listening to words that are coming
[15:14] out at them during immediate
[15:16] conversation, but they're looking at
[15:17] body position, they're looking at tone,
[15:19] they're looking at volume of voice,
[15:21] they're picking up all these different
[15:23] cues, amalgamating them, and and
[15:25] sometimes for the negative.
[15:28] >> Yeah. So that it's interesting the sort
[15:30] of noticing intensity and duration.
[15:33] Yeah. Right. What we're talking about
[15:34] when it comes to emotional intensity,
[15:36] first off, you have to realize they're
[15:37] happening. Then it has to be how big
[15:39] does the feeling feel inside of you.
[15:41] That is how many different cascades
[15:43] occur inside of your brain and body to
[15:45] make you feel it. And then how long is
[15:47] the falloff after that happens.
[15:48] >> Yes.
[15:49] >> Um
[15:50] >> what's interesting I suppose s people
[15:52] walk into a room they're hypervigilant
[15:54] they're paying attention they realize
[15:55] this person's turned away a little bit
[15:56] or they're blinking a bit more or they
[15:58] don't even know what's happening but
[15:59] there is just a sense that person
[16:01] doesn't feel too good. I suppose a lot
[16:03] of the time kind of like a smoke
[16:04] detector principle those people are
[16:06] going to perceive problems where there
[16:08] are none and that's when it becomes very
[16:10] maladaptive right it's already kind of
[16:12] maladaptive to just perceive stuff as it
[16:14] is with a level of resolution that's
[16:16] more than everyone else because the
[16:18] world that most people are in the center
[16:20] of the bell curve and then the world
[16:22] that you're in maybe out toward the tail
[16:24] end and the world that Dana White's in
[16:25] out on the other tail end um are kind of
[16:28] different different existences right and
[16:31] Dana will out on some stuff that I'm
[16:33] sure that he could it would be great for
[16:34] him to pay a bit more attention to, but
[16:36] then the person who has realized that
[16:38] the auntie over the far side is actually
[16:41] in a mood with the sister or whatever.
[16:43] Um, but they're not. They've got a
[16:45] different type of error. Dana has
[16:46] ignored something and they've pattern
[16:48] matched something that wasn't actually
[16:49] there. So, there's I suppose some
[16:51] strengths and weaknesses. All right. I
[16:53] guess
[16:55] what [gasps]
[16:57] when you're thinking about like RSD,
[17:00] what other traits does it tend to be
[17:02] bundled in with? Are there other things
[17:04] that come tend to come along for the
[17:06] ride?
[17:08] >> So with actually I'm going to go back
[17:11] because we forgot a huge thing that that
[17:13] happens in the brain as well and that's
[17:15] hormones. We could talk about that later
[17:17] if you want to
[17:18] >> and tell me about hormones now.
[17:19] [laughter]
[17:20] >> Okay. [gasps]
[17:21] So I I wanted to talk about hormones
[17:23] because I think when you look at the
[17:24] brain in general I mean there is not
[17:28] much else you can look at that would be
[17:30] equivalent to like this huge
[17:34] that has the capacity to kind of change
[17:36] your entire system just globally from
[17:38] top to bottom. And hormones are
[17:40] something so interesting to look at
[17:41] especially for females because like for
[17:43] women you're changing every month you're
[17:46] changing when you're pregnant. You're
[17:47] changing when you're permenopausal.
[17:49] You're changing when you have a kid.
[17:50] It's just like you can have eight
[17:52] different versions of yourself and with
[17:55] men I mean you deal with the hormonal
[17:56] stuff with like as their testosterone
[17:58] drops or and other things that are
[18:00] happening in real time. So hormones
[18:03] directly impact like for example with
[18:05] estrogen um as your estrogen drops your
[18:09] dopamine drops as well and so then
[18:11] you're less able to regulate your
[18:13] emotions and things like that. And
[18:14] that's a huge huge thing to bring up. an
[18:16] important factor in emotional
[18:18] sensitivity and rejection sensitivity
[18:20] because if for two weeks out of the
[18:22] month your estrogen level is
[18:24] intrinsically lower, your dopamine level
[18:27] is lower and it's harder for you to
[18:29] regulate it, you're going to be more
[18:31] rejection sensitive, emotionally
[18:33] sensitive during those times.
[18:35] >> What relationship does testosterone have
[18:38] to emotional sensitivity?
[18:40] >> Yeah, so testosterone is actually it it
[18:43] can be protective in that front. um to a
[18:47] degree in it helps you feel alert and
[18:50] awake and might help you emotionally
[18:52] regulate and balance a little bit
[18:54] better. The problem is is that sometimes
[18:56] as that testosterone drops as happens
[18:59] you know 50s 60s with males sometimes
[19:02] you can because of that drop in
[19:04] testosterone you can feel this huge rise
[19:07] in emotional sensitivity and a lot of
[19:09] men aren't equipped to deal with that.
[19:11] >> Interesting. A quick aside, you've
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[20:06] That's drinklnt.com/modern
[20:10] wisdom. Going back to why social
[20:13] rejection hurts so much,
[20:14] >> right? From an adaptive standpoint,
[20:17] presumably
[20:19] I'm being kicked out of the tribe.
[20:20] There's only 30 people in my pod out of
[20:23] 150 Dunbar tribe that I'm a part of. If
[20:25] I'm on my own, I'm dead.
[20:26] >> Mhm.
[20:28] >> Why would evolution create a brain that
[20:29] can be so devastated by criticism?
[20:31] >> I don't know. [laughter]
[20:33] I think So, here's the deal. I don't
[20:36] think like if you were to ask me,
[20:39] it would like you me myself, I know that
[20:43] I'm emotionally sensitive. I wouldn't
[20:45] trade that for the world. Yeah, it's
[20:47] really difficult at times to be highly
[20:49] emotionally sensitive, but I think it
[20:51] makes me a better person. I think it
[20:53] makes me a better physician. I think it
[20:55] makes me a better parent. I think it
[20:56] makes me a better partner. I think being
[20:58] able to be highly attuned to emotional
[21:02] data and incoming information
[21:05] can be it can be one of the greatest
[21:09] signs of emotional intelligence you
[21:10] have. So I think that that's I I
[21:12] wouldn't trade that emotional
[21:13] sensitivity. So yeah, I mean did
[21:16] evolution make a brain that can be
[21:19] devastated by rejection? I mean, yes,
[21:23] but there's also some positives that
[21:24] come with that.
[21:25] >> Okay. You talked about hormones there.
[21:27] >> Yeah.
[21:27] >> Does RSD look different in men?
[21:31] >> Um, you want a weird answer for that?
[21:34] >> Sure.
[21:34] >> Okay. [laughter]
[21:36] I, this is my soap box for this. I think
[21:40] that looking at just, you know, being a
[21:43] psychiatrist and seeing mental health
[21:44] just in general and seeing the
[21:46] progression of mental health, especially
[21:47] as we've talked about it a little bit
[21:49] more, you start to notice patterns. And
[21:51] as you look at male mental health, I
[21:54] think that we have done a huge
[21:56] disservice to men in terms of we don't
[21:59] educate men and help cultivate with men
[22:03] a lot of information about emotional
[22:05] sensitivity. And as a result, for a lot
[22:08] of men, they know how to target a couple
[22:10] emotions and one of them being anger.
[22:13] Yep.
[22:13] >> So, I think for a lot of men, you see
[22:16] men that have, you know, they've been
[22:18] told, you know, just man up. This is not
[22:21] that big of a deal. Don't cry about it.
[22:23] Don't like they have been forced to
[22:26] suppress emotions, but the only socially
[22:28] acceptable emotion they're allowed to
[22:29] express is anger. I would say that some
[22:31] of that is probably misdirected or
[22:33] confusing signals of maybe emotional
[22:35] sensitivity.
[22:36] >> What happens when emotionally sensitive
[22:38] boys are told to man up? I mean that you
[22:41] get really angry dudes
[22:44] and I mean it it's just such a like I
[22:46] think as a parent who um has a son um
[22:50] it's weird because and maybe it's this
[22:53] is like the mom son thing [laughter]
[22:56] that I'm so protective over him. Um, but
[22:59] you know, you see in other settings and
[23:01] you you start to really zoom in and you
[23:03] look at how other people are are
[23:07] bringing up their their six-year-olds,
[23:10] their six-year-old boys. And even from a
[23:12] young age in the kindergarten class, you
[23:14] know, the way that the girls are treated
[23:16] in the class versus the boys are treated
[23:18] in the class and not by the teacher, but
[23:19] like the parents. You look at it in
[23:21] birthday parties. You know, a a girl
[23:22] will fall down, they're scooped up,
[23:24] they're they're coddled, they're told,
[23:27] you know, everything's okay. a boy will
[23:28] fall down and it's like, "Oh, that's not
[23:30] that big of a deal." You know, let's
[23:31] let's move on from this. And it's it
[23:33] just it doesn't seem like
[23:36] it's like from Genesis. There's not like
[23:38] a huge spot where they can start to
[23:41] explore and really navigate emotional
[23:44] sensitivity. Well,
[23:45] >> yeah. I think emotionally sensitive
[23:48] women seem to have a bit more latitude
[23:51] and forgiveness to explore that kind of
[23:54] sensitivity than men do, especially as
[23:56] they get into adulthood. Like I, you
[23:58] know, I think you're right that
[24:00] >> it's weird. Anger is such an antisocial
[24:02] emotion.
[24:03] >> Yeah.
[24:03] >> Right. It's dangerous. It can be
[24:05] destructive. It's often not wanted by
[24:07] the people that are experiencing it and
[24:08] they don't want the impact of it to
[24:09] happen.
[24:10] >> Yeah. But anger's for many men more
[24:14] socially acceptable than sadness. And
[24:16] when you think about how antisocial
[24:18] anger is as an emotion, it really goes
[24:20] to show sort of how unaccepted sadness
[24:23] can be. But yeah, you know, we talk a
[24:26] lot online about the importance of
[24:27] getting men to open up. I had a
[24:29] conversation, two conversations this
[24:31] week talking about male suicide. And in
[24:33] both of them, there is this I just wish
[24:35] that this guy reached out. I wish that
[24:37] he'd talked. But in over 90% of cases
[24:40] where a man takes his own life in the
[24:42] UK, he's already gone to some form of
[24:44] mental health counseling. So it's not
[24:47] just the talking about it thing. It's
[24:50] actually allowing like giving room for
[24:52] men to be able to feel their feelings.
[24:53] Mhm.
[24:54] >> And I think that to be honest, like a
[24:55] lot of the blame, a lot of the work, not
[24:59] blame, a lot of the work here can be
[25:01] laid at other men's feet because
[25:04] everyone says they want their friend to
[25:05] open up if you're having a bad time that
[25:07] I really need you to to talk to me. And
[25:09] this is all easy to say after the fact,
[25:11] especially if something really dangerous
[25:13] or or devastating's happened. But how
[25:16] many guys are supportive of another man
[25:18] on the internet that's opening up about
[25:20] how much he's struggling? like not not
[25:22] to the Overton emotional Overton window
[25:25] of acceptability, which is, you know,
[25:26] things are hard, but I'm getting back in
[25:28] the gym and I'm going to put some muscle
[25:29] on or whatever. Like really broken down
[25:32] and I don't know what to do. I'm alone.
[25:34] I'm broken. I'm I'm lost. I'm
[25:36] devastated.
[25:37] >> Uh a guy that's crying is aversive to a
[25:41] lot of men.
[25:41] >> Yeah.
[25:42] >> Uh and women, too. But I'm like, you
[25:44] don't get to say male suicide's a big
[25:46] problem. We need to do more of more for
[25:48] this. Society needs to care more. and
[25:50] then take a piss out of a guy who is
[25:53] opening up about his emotions online.
[25:55] >> Yeah.
[25:55] >> I had this idea of man points which is
[25:58] >> guys need to accumulate sufficient kind
[26:02] of surplus masculinity in areas like
[26:05] muscularity or strength or success or
[26:07] money or notoriety or women or whatever.
[26:09] And if they've got this bank account
[26:12] reserve of masculinity, they can kind of
[26:14] withdraw from that and then talk about
[26:16] emotions. It's like this special video
[26:18] game unlock that only happens once
[26:20] you've reached a particular level of
[26:22] being a man.
[26:23] >> Mhm.
[26:24] >> Basically, people have a big ick. Most
[26:28] of society has a big ick with men
[26:29] talking about deep emotions, especially
[26:30] difficult emotions, but they have far
[26:33] fewer if it comes from a place of
[26:34] prestige
[26:36] >> than one of poverty. uh a guy who's
[26:38] already down on his luck and might not
[26:40] have much going for him talking about
[26:42] how much things are are hurting doesn't
[26:45] get the same kind of sympathy that Chris
[26:47] Bumstead, six time Olympia world
[26:50] champion, one of the most muscular guys
[26:51] on the planet that he gets. He can cry
[26:53] and talk about how he broke down in his
[26:55] girlfriend's arms 6 weeks before he was
[26:56] about to win the world championship
[26:58] because he's got all of these trappings
[27:00] and trimmings of masculinity that make
[27:02] it seem like it's not coming from a
[27:04] place of weakness. It's coming from a
[27:05] place of strength, but again,
[27:08] >> Chris doesn't need the same kind of
[27:11] support because he's already got a
[27:13] community around him of a supportive
[27:14] wife and all of these successes that are
[27:17] continuing to move him down the track.
[27:19] The people that really need it are the
[27:21] guys that kind of don't have anything
[27:22] going for them and they're presumably
[27:23] going to be the biggest risk as well.
[27:25] But yeah, that's my that's my soap box
[27:26] as well to just I really wish that there
[27:29] was more latitude. Like speaking as a
[27:31] guy that feels feelings, I just I did a
[27:33] a full week retreat working exclusively
[27:35] on emotions, 12 hours a day for seven
[27:37] days in Northern California last year.
[27:39] Two weeks ago, I just did a Janna
[27:41] meditation retreat which is exclusively
[27:43] working on conductivity of emotions, a
[27:46] silent meditation retreat for seven
[27:47] days, like sitting on the cushion for I
[27:50] don't know six or eight hours a day. So
[27:52] that was like both of those things for
[27:54] me and me trying to get below the neck,
[27:56] me trying to
[27:58] >> move away from a lot of the
[28:04] judge, not not even judgment, like uh
[28:06] felt scrutiny and um existing patterns
[28:10] of how is this going to show up in the
[28:12] world? Can I operate this way inside of
[28:14] my business? Is this something that I
[28:15] can do that's publicly acceptable? It's
[28:16] like it doesn't you can go and work on
[28:18] this thing in isolation and then come
[28:20] back. But yeah, I I I
[28:23] know what it's like to be a really
[28:25] sensitive kid growing up that didn't
[28:27] have anywhere to put it because you're
[28:29] in a working class blue collar
[28:31] environment or the people around you
[28:33] don't notice or don't have the tools to
[28:35] be able to help. And it can drive you to
[28:40] do really amazing things, but it also
[28:42] creates a bunch of coping mechanisms
[28:44] that mean, huh, I had this weird gift.
[28:46] Like, I had this depth of connection
[28:47] that I could have had with the world and
[28:49] I contorted it, alchemized it, you could
[28:53] say, cuz it went from something that was
[28:54] a challenge to something that you've
[28:55] turned into something good.
[28:56] >> Yeah.
[28:57] >> But it is kind of a denial of a bit of
[28:59] yourself as well at the same time. So
[29:00] that's been this has been a it's one of
[29:02] the reasons I was excited to speak to
[29:04] you because it's a a very personal like
[29:06] super interesting topic. I I think it's
[29:08] fascinating what
[29:09] >> a lot of emotionally sensitive people
[29:11] also they go through life and they hide
[29:13] that part of them because there is so
[29:15] much internalized shame about like
[29:17] you're not supposed to be sensitive.
[29:18] You're supposed to be strong. You're
[29:19] supposed to be able to handle stuff. if
[29:21] you're I mean male and females like I
[29:24] mean this is something that as a human
[29:25] condition people are are celebrated for
[29:28] like you were able to get on the other
[29:30] side of that adversity like you did so
[29:32] well you didn't complain you didn't do
[29:33] and so like you from a young age you
[29:36] just kind of learn to shut down that
[29:38] part of yourself or become really
[29:40] embarrassed I remember being like a kid
[29:42] and you know my mom something would
[29:45] happen and it would like hit my ear the
[29:47] wrong way and I' [clears throat] I would
[29:49] think that oh my god like I'm so
[29:52] embarrassed or something would and I
[29:53] would like go and hide. I would like
[29:55] hide under a table or I would hide in a
[29:56] closet or I would because I was just
[29:58] like embarrassed and sad and everything
[30:02] happening all at once. And eventually I
[30:04] was like this is young like eight. I was
[30:07] like this is not conducive for me moving
[30:10] forward and not functioning well.
[30:11] >> Yeah. This is I can't do that when I'm
[30:13] grown up. And so then you just start
[30:17] hiding it. So if you're emotional or if
[30:19] you're having a hard day, you lie about
[30:21] it. You are like, "I'm fine. I'm fine.
[30:24] I'm fine. It's not a big deal. I don't
[30:25] want to talk about it." Or and sometimes
[30:27] I would be like, "I don't want to talk
[30:29] about it with other people because I'll
[30:30] cry and that'll prove that I'm
[30:32] emotionally sensitive." And so I I hear
[30:34] that story a lot as well.
[30:36] >> The insight that suppression isn't the
[30:37] same thing as strength.
[30:39] >> Yeah.
[30:40] >> Is
[30:41] I know kind of kind of worldchanging
[30:43] that what you're doing if you're an
[30:45] emotionally sensitive person. That's
[30:48] swallowing them down is you're
[30:50] performing the role of somebody who's
[30:52] got composure.
[30:53] >> Yeah.
[30:54] >> But that's not the same as having
[30:55] composure. That's not the same or you're
[30:57] performing the role of somebody that
[30:58] hasn't felt the thing. But that's not
[30:59] the same as
[31:00] >> no
[31:00] >> not feeling the thing.
[31:02] >> No.
[31:02] >> And you've got this line, the real
[31:03] challenge lies in not feeling deeply,
[31:05] but in living in a world that doesn't
[31:07] always know how to support that
[31:09] sensitivity.
[31:10] >> That's a good quote.
[31:12] >> It's [laughter] a great it's it's a
[31:14] great line. It really is. The real
[31:15] challenge lies not in feeling deeply,
[31:17] but in living in a world that doesn't
[31:19] always know how to support that
[31:20] sensitivity.
[31:21] >> Mhm.
[31:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. The world feels very spiky.
[31:23] Every time I come back from retreat, I
[31:25] always feel like everything is so
[31:27] tender.
[31:28] >> I know. And then what you get to see is
[31:32] how
[31:33] operating in a world that's incredibly
[31:36] intense, very chaotic, fastm moving, you
[31:39] have to create these strange patterns
[31:42] and coping mechanisms and wall yourself
[31:44] off and guard yourself just so that you
[31:46] can move through the day. And that's
[31:47] fine, right? You don't want to be a a
[31:49] whimpering blob on the floor.
[31:50] >> I don't want to be a puddle. I don't
[31:51] want to be a puddle of emotions. I want
[31:53] to be able to show up. But then also,
[31:54] there are bits of your experience that
[31:56] you're denying yourself. And there are
[31:58] strengths that you can have that come
[31:59] along for this. That's a question. What
[32:01] are the strengths of highly sensitive
[32:02] people? What are the strengths of people
[32:04] with rejection sensitive dysphoria?
[32:06] >> Yeah, I think being able again I think
[32:10] that there is a direct pipeline between
[32:12] being highly emotionally sensitive and
[32:14] being highly emotionally intelligent.
[32:16] And I think that's just how you deal
[32:17] with that sensitivity. And so some of
[32:20] the strengths that can come with that
[32:22] emotional sensitivity are number one,
[32:25] you have a deep deep deep understanding
[32:27] of other people's emotional insides. And
[32:30] I think that's part of, you know, what
[32:32] led me into psychiatry in the first
[32:34] place. That's part of why I've continued
[32:36] to enjoy it as much as I have because I
[32:38] think that you can intimately understand
[32:42] when people are talking about their
[32:43] experience or like you can even
[32:45] understand you know sometimes I'll have
[32:47] a patient come into my office and you
[32:50] start asking them questions and you know
[32:52] their answer is like I don't know like
[32:54] okay so c can you tell me anything in
[32:57] the past two months that has really made
[33:00] you upset I don't know like and so then
[33:03] it's for a lot of Well, that's like a
[33:05] stone wall. You don't really know where
[33:06] to go from there. But for some people
[33:08] who are highly emotionally sensitive,
[33:10] you're picking up like, okay, I'm
[33:11] picking up from like previous body cues
[33:13] that they were giving me when they were
[33:14] talking about their family or when they
[33:16] were answering in certain ways.
[33:18] >> You're just like, okay, well, there's
[33:20] some tension there. And so, you start
[33:21] asking about other questions. So, you're
[33:23] picking up stuff that you might not even
[33:24] have clocked as it was happening at the
[33:26] time, but you've amalgamated and you
[33:28] know exactly what direction to go. I
[33:30] think that's an incredibly um wonderful
[33:33] thing to have. Um and I think that yeah
[33:36] that outside of just psychiatry, I think
[33:38] that does make you a good friend. It
[33:40] makes you a good partner. It makes you a
[33:42] good parent. I think it's so helpful
[33:44] with parenting.
[33:46] >> Um so I I think it's just that huge
[33:49] scope of understanding that emotional
[33:51] condition.
[33:53] >> Does emotional sensitivity have an
[33:55] impact on people's self-esteem?
[33:58] Um, yes, [laughter] but sometimes it can
[34:02] be negative. You know, if if you're
[34:03] highly emotionally sensitive, I think,
[34:05] and you're used to reading emotional
[34:07] data negatively, sometimes that can
[34:10] start to impact your self-esteem and
[34:12] you're you're walking into a room and,
[34:14] you know, self-worth and self-confidence
[34:16] are different, but you walk into a room
[34:18] and you start to feel like, okay, maybe
[34:20] I'm not wanted here and things like
[34:21] that. and you're reading emotional
[34:25] information and and possibly attaching a
[34:27] narrative on there that doesn't actually
[34:29] exist
[34:30] >> that can impact your self-esteem for
[34:32] sure.
[34:32] >> Um, but there are other times like for
[34:34] example in the work that I do as a
[34:37] psychiatrist because of that emotional
[34:38] sensitivity. I'm celebrated for that and
[34:40] I think it's a really unique field to be
[34:42] in as an emotionally sensitive person
[34:45] >> because that's one of the areas where I
[34:47] get the most validation cuz people feel
[34:49] like they have been understood for the
[34:51] first time.
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[35:50] What's the difference between confidence
[35:51] and self-esteem?
[35:53] >> I think self-esteem is like inherent
[35:56] inherent in like that's that's you.
[35:59] Confidence is more I think what you're
[36:02] capable of and what you're you know your
[36:06] like your confidence in your skills and
[36:08] what you can do in that moment.
[36:10] >> So confidence I think fluctuates and
[36:12] self-esteem is just self-worth is your
[36:15] base.
[36:16] >> Okay. Does that mean that people with
[36:17] RSD are more likely to need constant
[36:19] reassurance?
[36:20] >> Yes.
[36:21] >> Right. [laughter]
[36:22] >> Yes it is. [gasps] Because I think what
[36:24] what's happening is that they're getting
[36:27] this negative input or potentially it's
[36:29] not actually negative. It could be
[36:31] >> they're reading neutral input as
[36:32] negative or positive input is negative.
[36:34] >> Yes,
[36:35] >> that's happened too. uh but you're
[36:37] reading it as negative. And so there are
[36:39] times where you get so stuck in these
[36:41] amygdala loops of fear and your your
[36:45] stress hormones are like just cascading
[36:47] through your body that you're just like
[36:49] I just need someone else to tell me that
[36:51] I'm not like that this isn't actually
[36:54] the case. And so it's a it's a form of
[36:56] reality testing.
[36:58] >> Do you think that you can build
[36:59] self-esteem without external validation?
[37:02] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um I think with
[37:08] you know I I guess success is kind of
[37:10] external validation but [cough] but
[37:12] [clears throat]
[37:13] doing I think there is stuff that you
[37:16] can work on your self-esteem. One of the
[37:20] biggest things to help with self-esteem
[37:22] I think is understanding your own brain
[37:24] cuz I think if you have this if you are
[37:27] able to dstigmatize for yourself like
[37:30] this isn't a personal feeling. this is
[37:32] just truly neurobiologically how my
[37:34] brain is working. I think that can
[37:36] bolster your self-esteem pretty
[37:37] tremendously.
[37:38] >> Does this mean that compliments are hard
[37:40] for these people to believe? If somebody
[37:42] pays you a compliment, is it quite
[37:44] likely that it's going to be brushed off
[37:45] by someone with RSD?
[37:47] >> Sometimes. Sometimes I think it depends
[37:50] on on how they're receiving it in that
[37:53] moment. Like and what the what the
[37:54] relationship is with the person. Like
[37:56] for example, if it's a relationship
[37:58] where you know a a sibling that's always
[38:01] kind of been a straight broker and they
[38:03] get a compliment, you know, you might
[38:05] not feel like I don't trust that
[38:06] compliment. That's weird. If it might be
[38:09] they're already self-conscious about
[38:11] something and they don't know the other
[38:12] person well and they give them a
[38:14] compliment, maybe that hits their ear
[38:15] weird because they're already kind of
[38:17] self-conscious about it. It really
[38:18] depends on where they are in that
[38:20] moment.
[38:20] >> Okay.
[38:21] >> But it's possible.
[38:22] >> How does emotional sensitivity show up
[38:23] in relationships?
[38:26] Um
[38:28] [laughter]
[38:29] it
[38:30] >> you sound exasperated by
[38:31] >> I know because it's such a broad
[38:32] question. Um I think emotional
[38:34] sensitivity plays a role in every
[38:36] relationship like whether you're highly
[38:38] emotionally sensitive or not. I think
[38:40] relationships are just kind of this
[38:42] minefield for emotions anyway because
[38:45] for in a very real way you're putting
[38:48] yourself in a spot of vulnerability. you
[38:50] are, you know, I mean, theoretically in
[38:53] vulnerability where you're exposing
[38:55] parts of yourself to another person and
[38:58] you're having to navigate those waters
[39:00] and see, you know, you're really like
[39:02] putting it out there and if the person
[39:04] likes you or doesn't like you, you're
[39:05] you're putting yourself out there to
[39:07] possibly receive rejection, possibly
[39:09] receive criticism. So, I think that for
[39:12] a highly emotionally sensitive person
[39:13] can get really tricky. Um, and people I
[39:18] know a lot of people that are highly
[39:20] emotionally sensitive who have rejection
[39:22] sensitive dysphoria who don't want to
[39:24] date anymore. They're like, "This is too
[39:26] hard. I can't do that because as soon as
[39:29] there is a delay in texting, I've
[39:31] convinced myself that this person isn't
[39:33] isn't interested and I've redownloaded
[39:36] an app."
[39:36] >> Why does waiting for a text feel so
[39:38] unbearable? I think it's just that
[39:42] that
[39:44] lack of that immediate answer and that
[39:46] knowledge. Your brain just fills in a
[39:49] narrative in that empty space. And so
[39:51] like for example, if they were
[39:52] interested, they would respond to me
[39:53] right away. If they like I've even had
[39:56] people who have thought, and I've
[39:58] thought this in the past, if I'm sitting
[40:00] on someone who hasn't texted back, my
[40:02] brain will go to, well, they're with
[40:05] somebody else. Like they're they're not
[40:07] thinking about me. They're with somebody
[40:08] else. And like by the time they respond
[40:10] like they got off of their shift, I have
[40:12] already
[40:14] moved on [laughter] like I'm angry with
[40:17] them and then you know it takes a while
[40:19] for me to recalibrate and figure out but
[40:21] that sometimes that's where my brain has
[40:23] gone.
[40:23] >> Right. So does this mean that anxious
[40:26] people sometimes will
[40:27] >> sabotage relationships before they've
[40:30] even had the chance to be rejected?
[40:32] >> Yes.
[40:32] >> How does that show up?
[40:33] >> I mean that was my pattern in all of my
[40:35] 20s. Like as soon as
[40:36] >> what would you do?
[40:37] >> Like as soon as people got
[40:40] >> close enough and I was worried that I
[40:43] was, you know, like we're getting a
[40:46] little bit too close and now I have to
[40:48] show you actual parts of myself or or
[40:51] I'm I'm afraid that if you know certain
[40:53] parts of myself or you know that I'm
[40:55] really really emotionally sensitive and
[40:57] I overthink absolutely everything that
[40:59] you say, you're going to leave. So I'm
[41:02] just going to end it. M
[41:03] >> so I've never been broken up with
[41:07] [laughter] ever
[41:09] >> cuz I would just like
[41:10] >> you can't find me. I quit.
[41:12] >> Yeah, I quit. I'm out of here.
[41:15] >> So I would just leave before and and it
[41:18] was literally no fault of their own.
[41:20] They would not be the cause of this.
[41:22] >> Big fear of abandonment.
[41:24] >> Yeah. Well, I mean, not even
[41:26] abandonment, just like because it
[41:29] wouldn't be abandonment because I would
[41:30] opt I would rather be alone. I I like
[41:33] But I don't want you to say something
[41:36] negative about me. I don't want you to
[41:37] point out something that I already fear
[41:39] about myself. I don't want you I don't
[41:42] want you to say those words that you
[41:43] don't want to be with me. Like, I'm fine
[41:45] alone. I just don't want you to say
[41:47] that.
[41:48] >> Because that would be a judgment on you
[41:49] and that would be you being pushed away.
[41:51] >> Yeah. I'm fine by myself, but I just
[41:53] don't want you to push me away. Okay.
[41:55] Like vulnerability hangovers as well
[41:57] after you've opened up having this
[41:59] >> Oh yeah.
[42:00] >> period of time. What is vulnerability
[42:01] hangover?
[42:02] >> I to me it is and like for so many of my
[42:06] patients it's this period where you feel
[42:08] like you've shared too much and you've
[42:10] been too vulnerable and you have like
[42:13] let in somebody else a little bit into
[42:15] your internal environment and so you've
[42:17] you've cracked that door open so they
[42:19] can see that kind of stuff. And so then
[42:20] what my brain does is I just spin and
[42:24] spin and spin and think about like,
[42:26] okay, well now they know this, they
[42:27] probably know this, and they probably
[42:29] they're probably thinking that I'm just
[42:31] like a huge weenie and that I can't
[42:33] handle anything and that I, you know,
[42:35] and that and I think it's like a direct
[42:37] shot from being very vulnerable to being
[42:39] very embarrassed and then pulling away.
[42:41] >> Yeah. It feels to me like the common
[42:43] thread between a lot of this is not
[42:44] really the feeling of the emotions
[42:46] deeply. It's the story that you tell
[42:48] yourself about what those emotions mean
[42:52] and what other people might think about
[42:53] you for having them. There's like a lot
[42:55] of shame wrapped up in this. At least
[42:58] that's how I'm interpreting it.
[42:59] >> I think I think if you were to look at
[43:01] emotional sensitivity kind of as a
[43:03] spectrum. I mean there's a place where
[43:05] you know maybe you're not as emotionally
[43:06] sensitive as you might should be.
[43:10] >> Dana White [laughter]
[43:11] >> I don't want to say it. Um [gasps]
[43:13] then there is a place where you know
[43:16] you're you're ups you're kind of
[43:17] regulated up in the middle. There's a
[43:19] place where I think you're highly
[43:20] emotionally sensitive and then I think
[43:22] when you move further down that
[43:25] >> pathologically sensitive.
[43:26] >> Yeah. I think that's that's more
[43:28] rejection sensitive dysphoria.
[43:29] >> Right. So we're talking about the most
[43:31] sensitive people.
[43:32] >> That's what I say. Yeah.
[43:33] >> Okay. And and you consider this to be
[43:35] you.
[43:35] >> Yeah.
[43:36] >> Right. Okay. But you managed to operate
[43:39] in the world. I mean, you've chosen a
[43:40] very specific [laughter] industry to be
[43:42] in. Yeah. Right. I think this is the
[43:44] this is the thing again, if we were to
[43:46] take you at one end of the spectrum and
[43:47] Dana White at the other, um,
[43:49] physiologically also two very different
[43:51] humans. Um, what has happened there,
[43:53] which is I guess pretty great. Like Dana
[43:55] White would probably make a [ __ ]
[43:56] horrendous psychiatrist. And I don't I
[44:00] don't think that you would be fantastic
[44:01] as the CEO of the UFC, a fighting
[44:03] school. Well, maybe you're maybe true,
[44:05] [laughter]
[44:06] but there are dispositions and there are
[44:10] situations that you put yourself into.
[44:11] If you were in a relationship with
[44:13] somebody who was go go go, doesn't
[44:15] really think about emotions that much,
[44:16] isn't able to sit with you in the muck,
[44:19] isn't able to hold space that much, that
[44:20] would be a bad type of partnership,
[44:22] right? No, I'm sure you could make it
[44:23] work. Maybe you could even have a
[44:24] flourishing relationship. But it would
[44:26] be done by like gritting your teeth and
[44:28] gripping the bar incredibly
[44:29] aggressively. The same thing for Dana
[44:31] White. If Dana White was in a
[44:32] relationship or in a business where he
[44:34] constantly had to sort of be very fluffy
[44:36] and very soft and sort of patient,
[44:40] sensitive, more demure, you know, moving
[44:42] at a a more uh delicate pace. I don't
[44:45] think he might be able to make it work.
[44:46] I'm sure that he he is a flexible,
[44:48] competent human, but if he does that,
[44:50] he's going to be like not fully
[44:52] utilizing this part of his capacity in
[44:54] the same way as the world loses a great
[44:56] psychiatrist if you become the CEO of
[44:59] the UFC. Yeah. So this and this to me is
[45:02] like compatibility. The more that I
[45:05] think about it and the older that I get,
[45:07] compatibility is kind of everything in
[45:09] life. Okay, I have this type of a
[45:11] disposition. I can work on it and I can
[45:13] try and smooth off some of the edges
[45:14] that do feel a little bit close to
[45:16] pathological or just a bit maladaptive,
[45:18] right? It's it's firing in the wrong at
[45:20] the wrong times and I want it to be a
[45:22] little bit more this and a bit less
[45:23] that. Okay,
[45:24] >> but largely you have a set and a suite
[45:27] of strengths that come along with this
[45:29] particular disposition that you have and
[45:31] you can put yourself in a situation
[45:32] where those aren't things that you need
[45:34] to cail. They're things that you can use
[45:35] as a platform and a springboard.
[45:37] >> Yeah,
[45:39] >> I pay a lot of attention to stuff,
[45:41] right? I pay a lot of attention
[45:42] specifically words. Words was like my
[45:44] first love as a kid. I read a lot as a
[45:45] kid. And now it means that when I build
[45:47] brands like I built this thing, I built
[45:48] this podcast.
[45:50] word play and coming up with cool copy
[45:52] and spending obsessive amounts of time
[45:54] the for the first run that we ever did.
[45:57] You'll see that there's three icons on
[45:58] the back of this can.
[45:59] >> Yeah.
[46:00] >> One of the icons was half a point off
[46:03] offset on the back and this had gone
[46:05] through like we sold millions of cans
[46:07] and no one had noticed. And one day I
[46:09] picked a can up and I was like guys
[46:10] there's something wrong with the back of
[46:11] the can. And the only reason that that
[46:14] was able to be seen was because of that
[46:16] level of attention to detail. Now, is
[46:17] that going to be the difference between
[46:19] this being a billion dollar brand and
[46:20] not? Probably not. However, that same
[46:23] trait,
[46:24] >> delicious,
[46:25] >> wonderful. That's the that that's
[46:26] [laughter]
[46:27] from a boardcertified psychiatrist
[46:30] nonetheless. Um,
[46:32] >> yeah.
[46:33] >> My point being I work in industries
[46:35] where that attention to detail can be
[46:37] used properly, right? It can be used
[46:38] really well. Let's say that I was an an
[46:40] architect or an engineer that helped to
[46:42] build bridges or I was uh somebody maybe
[46:44] a surgeon's assistant or something like
[46:46] that. like really paying attention to
[46:47] how clean the surfaces are, things like
[46:48] like that would be great. If I was in a
[46:50] different industry, I'm not convinced
[46:52] that that level of attention to detail
[46:54] will be so good. So again, what I'm kind
[46:56] of trying to get at here is that for
[46:58] people who think, "Wow, I I feel stuff a
[47:00] lot or I pay a lot of attention or I I
[47:02] focus on things. I tend to ruminate. I
[47:04] tend to have intrusive thoughts that
[47:05] play out these pantoimes of what might
[47:07] have happened with this person and their
[47:09] motivations." It's like, okay, that can
[47:11] be and should be uh uh alchemized in
[47:16] some ways, right? You can we can work on
[47:18] that, but also you can just find worlds
[47:20] and domains in which that's like a a
[47:22] real [ __ ] superpower. And I think
[47:24] that trying to get people to not see
[47:26] that suppression is a strength, but to
[47:29] see, okay, the issue is not you being
[47:31] sensitive, the issue is you being in a
[47:34] world that doesn't utilize your
[47:36] sensitivity properly. I think that's a I
[47:38] don't know. It's just an interesting way
[47:39] to get tactical around this.
[47:40] >> That's how I ended up in psychiatry. So,
[47:42] I went into medical school with the
[47:44] hopes of doing pediatrics. My mom's a
[47:46] pediatrician. I was like, that's what
[47:47] I'm going to do. I got through
[47:51] pediatrics and I'm like, this is a
[47:53] little boring. I I wish it wasn't, but I
[47:55] was like, I can't be in clinic all day,
[47:56] and I also can't be sick every winter.
[47:58] Like, I can't do it,
[47:59] >> right?
[47:59] >> Um, and so I was like, okay, let me
[48:01] pivot and I'm going to do PE's ICU. I
[48:04] like I
[48:06] really thought that was my calling and
[48:09] it was because I was like I'm doing all
[48:11] this work from med school and like this
[48:13] is the superhero job. Like I am saving
[48:16] children. Like there's nothing that is
[48:18] better than that.
[48:19] >> Yep.
[48:20] >> I went in for my like letter of
[48:22] recommendation. Walk into her office. I
[48:24] was like at the door of our office and
[48:26] this woman like stops me at the door and
[48:29] she's like, "I hope you're not coming in
[48:30] here for a letter." And I was like,
[48:31] "Okay, what?" And she's like, "You cry
[48:34] all the time. You cannot do this. You
[48:37] will burn out in 5 seconds." And I like
[48:40] I wish, and I put this in my book, like
[48:42] this story, cuz I was like, I like in my
[48:44] brain, I was like, just say something,
[48:47] make a noise, respond. I I couldn't even
[48:50] say anything because I was like, she's
[48:51] correct. I knew in that moment
[48:54] >> that she was correct. like it that work
[48:56] every day I went to work that I was in
[48:58] the pedu I was scared and I was upset
[49:01] and I like I like I would be
[49:05] >> like reporting to my um attending and I
[49:08] would be telling them what happened
[49:10] overnight and I'm like crying as I'm
[49:12] telling them at the bedside and so I
[49:16] leave her office and I was sitting in my
[49:18] car and I was like okay well I guess
[49:21] what area of medicine can I cry in
[49:23] [laughter] I end up in psychiatry
[49:25] And so that's I mean you finding an
[49:30] environment
[49:31] that can hold all of that emotional
[49:35] sensitivity I think is really important.
[49:37] >> And the same thing goes for friendships
[49:39] and relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[49:41] Okay. Just on the relationship thing, uh
[49:45] texting, waiting for text, why is
[49:47] uncertainty so much harder to deal with
[49:50] than bad news?
[49:52] Uh because it's not I think I think it's
[49:56] it's the the fact that it's not definit
[50:00] bad news difficult but I think at some
[50:03] point you're like okay that's really bad
[50:05] but here are the steps I need to do to
[50:07] make it better and like now I can kind
[50:09] of make a game plan. the uncertainty. I
[50:11] will tell you 10 times out of 10 I will
[50:15] convince myself that a way worse outcome
[50:19] is happening in real time. And so I've
[50:22] already convinced myself that the worst
[50:23] possible outcome is happening rather
[50:25] than if I actually get, you know, the
[50:28] the
[50:30] knowledge that something bad is
[50:31] happening, I'm like, okay, that's not as
[50:32] bad as what I thought thought it would
[50:33] be. I suppose as well
[50:36] you can create situations in imagination
[50:39] that like defy the laws of physics like
[50:41] your dead great grandmother can come
[50:42] back from the grave to laugh at you
[50:44] about the thing that that can't even
[50:45] happen but that's how much our brains
[50:48] abhore having uncertainty that they
[50:49] would rather fantasize a nightmare than
[50:51] deal with ambiguity. I I know that I I
[50:55] for one have have come up with
[50:58] situations where like then I'm later I'm
[51:00] telling like my mom has taken the brunt
[51:02] of this where I'm telling her all of
[51:04] this stuff and she's like what
[51:05] >> that's deranged.
[51:06] >> What is this? How did that come in your
[51:09] brain?
[51:09] >> Okay. So this must be the same thing
[51:13] the same dynamic of why ghosting is so
[51:16] damaging.
[51:17] >> Yeah.
[51:17] >> Because there's no closure.
[51:18] >> Yeah.
[51:19] >> Right.
[51:20] >> Yeah. There's no closure. And I think
[51:21] also like this is
[51:25] ghosting is just awful. People shouldn't
[51:27] do that. Just just so you know. It's
[51:31] just an awful way to communicate. Um I
[51:34] think this is one of those things where
[51:37] as an emotionally sensitive person, you
[51:39] you ghosting is not just like, okay,
[51:42] this is the dissolution of the
[51:43] relationship. your brain automatically
[51:45] goes into
[51:47] there's something about me that forced
[51:49] this person away and and so that
[51:52] uncertainty
[51:52] >> they're an [ __ ] It's I'm
[51:54] insufficient.
[51:55] >> Yes. So it it gets turned on you and
[51:57] which I think is such it's so cruel to
[52:00] do to somebody else.
[52:02] >> Tell me if this sounds familiar. You
[52:04] train regularly. You eat reasonably
[52:05] well. You feel fine but you're just kind
[52:08] of going off vibes. Most people have
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[52:57] That's functionalth.com/modernwisdism.
[53:00] I'm wondering to sort of take it back to
[53:03] the how RSD and emotional sensitivity
[53:06] shows up in men. I wonder whether
[53:09] emotionally avoidant men are sometimes
[53:11] just emotionally sensitive men in
[53:13] disguise that don't have enough courage.
[53:15] >> Yeah. Oh yeah. A lot of times yes. I
[53:20] think emotionally avoidant men um you
[53:23] know you
[53:25] again going back to this thing of like
[53:28] men really don't have a lot of space to
[53:32] explore how to be emotionally sensitive.
[53:35] um
[53:36] because you know just from a young age
[53:38] they're told that they can't be and so
[53:40] they learn how to suppress it and to
[53:42] change it. And so when they're put into
[53:44] situations where they may have to be
[53:46] emotionally sensitive or they may have
[53:48] to, you know, engage in a way that they
[53:50] could get hurt or they could get
[53:52] rejected or something else could trigger
[53:55] sadness or an emotional response.
[53:57] They're just like, "Nope, I'm out. I'm
[53:59] just going to pull myself away from
[54:00] this." I mean, I've told you about I
[54:02] mean, I've been avoidant in the past
[54:04] because of that.
[54:05] >> How do you draw the line between
[54:06] emotional sensitivity and emotional
[54:08] fragility? Because what we're talking
[54:10] about here is, hey, you have this
[54:12] superpower. There's going to be some
[54:14] challenges that come along with it, but
[54:15] wherever you are on the spectrum from
[54:17] from Dana White to yourself, the
[54:20] >> I love that we're the extremes.
[54:22] >> I think you are. I really think I think
[54:23] you're kind of technically different
[54:24] species. Um,
[54:28] I'm interested in when saying
[54:32] this is actually something that you need
[54:34] to man up about. This is something that
[54:36] you need to get over. This is something
[54:38] that you need to grit your teeth and
[54:39] work through as opposed to you just
[54:41] don't fully understand how emotionally
[54:43] fluid and sensitive I am. Like I feel
[54:45] things deeply, you know, because
[54:46] everybody likes the idea of being
[54:48] validated. But validation done to the
[54:50] extreme
[54:52] >> results in no accountability, right?
[54:54] There's no point if if every emotion
[54:56] that you feel and every response that
[54:57] you have is valid then you go okay in
[55:00] that case I don't have to work on
[55:02] anything I can just be as big of an
[55:04] [ __ ] or a [ __ ] as I want and never
[55:07] actually as opposed to okay there are
[55:09] there are some limits that I need to
[55:10] push myself up against. So, I think a
[55:12] lot of people will be feeling this as
[55:13] they're listening. It's like, "Okay,
[55:14] like these people, this is interesting."
[55:16] Like, my sister or my girlfriend is
[55:18] like, she cries at things that I
[55:20] wouldn't usually, and sometimes it takes
[55:22] a while for her to come back down after
[55:23] she's had an emotional event and so on
[55:25] and so forth. Like,
[55:26] >> how does somebody know when it's
[55:28] emotional fragility that should be
[55:30] worked on? When should they push and
[55:31] when should they pivot?
[55:33] >> I don't think it's for another person to
[55:35] make that decision. I think it's for the
[55:37] person experiencing that moment. Because
[55:39] like for me, I think this is what that
[55:41] past three years of research has gotten
[55:44] me to because it I for years I'm like am
[55:47] I too fragile? Am I too weak? What is
[55:50] wrong? Like what is this? And I think it
[55:54] we've just emotionally sensitive people
[55:56] in general have been kind of
[56:00] put and not put but existing in an
[56:02] extremely difficult like right now the
[56:05] world is a hard place to be a human in.
[56:07] This is just a weird time to live in.
[56:09] >> If you want to feel feelings, it is. If
[56:10] you don't want to feel feelings, it's
[56:12] actually quite a fun place to be in, I
[56:13] think. You know, there's like so much
[56:15] there's there's so much novelty and
[56:16] there's lots of things that you can do
[56:18] and you can have an infinite number of
[56:20] like the velocity of different stimulus
[56:23] that you can enjoy, that's great. But if
[56:25] you actually want to feel feelings, it's
[56:27] kind of horrendous.
[56:28] >> Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm on the horrendous
[56:30] end. Like I I think I think existing in
[56:33] the world right now can sometimes be
[56:34] very difficult. Um, but I think that for
[56:39] an emotionally sensitive person, we've
[56:42] also never been given tools. Like
[56:44] there's they we have been told you're
[56:46] too sensitive, you're too fragile,
[56:47] you're too weak, and you need to kind of
[56:50] strengthen yourself.
[56:51] >> Mh.
[56:52] >> But no one's told you how to do that.
[56:55] And really what it boils down to is is
[56:58] looking at that like there's that step
[57:00] of us receiving that emotional data and
[57:04] then how do we catch it kind of in that
[57:07] moment so that we can you know impact
[57:09] either we're not going to change the
[57:10] processing because we're still going to
[57:12] read it but can we impact the intensity?
[57:15] Can we impact the duration? Can we get
[57:17] past this and make it a usable moment?
[57:19] And there's skills and tools that come
[57:21] with that. And that's what three years
[57:22] of like pulling from every area of
[57:24] psychology and psychiatry to give tools
[57:27] that were would work in the moment and
[57:29] over time that's what led to this book
[57:33] because I don't think people have that.
[57:34] I never got that.
[57:36] >> What are the most powerful emotional
[57:38] regulation tools?
[57:40] >> Okay. So I I came up with the calm your
[57:43] mind toolkit which is 12 of them. Um,
[57:46] and and I will I will tell you that all
[57:49] of them are are things that you probably
[57:51] heard before. You you've heard challenge
[57:54] negative thoughts. You've heard move
[57:55] your body. You've heard delay your
[57:56] reaction. You've heard stuff like that.
[57:59] But I think for an emotionally sensitive
[58:02] person or someone who's going through
[58:03] big emotions in real time, things can
[58:06] get so overwhelming in that moment that
[58:08] it's like when I have that like get
[58:12] absolutely flooded emotionally. nothing
[58:14] is happening up here like I can't think
[58:16] or process or like utilize what tool am
[58:19] I supposed to use. So this was so
[58:21] helpful for me to actually go through
[58:23] and in a place where I was regulated. I
[58:26] could be like okay this is the tool I
[58:28] want to use and then actually break down
[58:30] the steps knowing from an emotionally
[58:32] sensitive brain this is when I'm going
[58:33] to feel blank. Now if I have this book
[58:36] that could tell me like step by step
[58:38] what I'm supposed to do cuz that's what
[58:40] I wish I had. I just I just want like a
[58:42] gu I wanted a guide because I think it
[58:45] would have made med school easier. It
[58:47] would have made dating easier. It would
[58:48] have made you know the early years of my
[58:50] marriage easier. It would have made
[58:52] parenting easier. I think it's just
[58:56] there. Did that answer your question?
[58:58] >> Well, I guess [laughter]
[58:59] pick the top three tools to calm your
[59:01] mind and how do people do them
[59:03] correctly?
[59:04] >> Yeah, that was the question. Okay. Um, I
[59:06] think one of my favorite ones is just
[59:10] utilizing movement because I think that
[59:12] there is a tremendous and I'm not saying
[59:14] like you have to be in like some heavy
[59:15] duty like weightlifting kind of thing
[59:18] and you have to do a certain amount of
[59:19] cardio or something. I'm saying that
[59:22] when you are incredibly emotionally
[59:25] overloaded, there's a tremendous amount
[59:27] of value in like physical movement and
[59:30] one to like pattern disruption. So
[59:32] you're actually moving. Two, you're
[59:34] getting oxygenated glucose to your brain
[59:36] and hopefully shunting it to that
[59:37] frontal lobe so you can get resources
[59:40] there so you can think and process and
[59:41] override that amydala in real time.
[59:43] >> What does that look like? Someone's
[59:44] going through a event where they're
[59:46] emotionally activated. Do they start
[59:48] doing push-ups?
[59:49] >> You I mean whatever floats your boat,
[59:51] man. But I I would say like during dur I
[59:56] the last time I utilized it in real
[59:59] time. I was in a meeting and I was
[1:00:03] talking during the meeting I was talking
[1:00:05] about leaving the practice I'd been at
[1:00:06] for 9 years and starting my own
[1:00:08] practice. And so I'm like they were all
[1:00:10] of my partners were around me. I felt
[1:00:13] like I was just like I was overcome with
[1:00:15] guilt and fear about starting something
[1:00:17] new. And it was just it was a very big
[1:00:18] moment for me. And I recognized like,
[1:00:21] okay, this is what I need to do. And
[1:00:23] even within that, I just from under like
[1:00:26] I started like just tensing my calves
[1:00:29] and like moving my legs and do and just
[1:00:31] like and I think when you look at like
[1:00:34] ADHD
[1:00:35] in general cuz you know almost 100% of
[1:00:38] people with ADHD have some some form of
[1:00:41] RSD or you know they're they're fall on
[1:00:44] that spectrum. You look at fidgeting and
[1:00:47] things like that a as a form of like
[1:00:50] emotional regulation and self-
[1:00:52] stimulation and things like that. You're
[1:00:54] trying to actually surge some of that
[1:00:56] dopamine nor epinephrine kind of data.
[1:00:58] >> Okay. Movement.
[1:00:59] >> Yeah.
[1:01:00] >> What next?
[1:01:00] >> Okay. Um, you're asking me my favorites,
[1:01:03] so I'm thinking about the ones I've most
[1:01:05] recently used. One of them really like
[1:01:08] and it's delay your reaction. Because my
[1:01:11] initial impulse the minute I get pressed
[1:01:13] up against the wall or like if I have
[1:01:15] like this like big emotional stuff that
[1:01:18] I don't know how to deal with is I I
[1:01:19] respond with urgency. So all of the time
[1:01:24] if something is happening like if there
[1:01:26] is a delay in a text message I will be
[1:01:29] that person who texts a four time where
[1:01:31] are you what's happening and this is
[1:01:33] just like a reminder like if I delay my
[1:01:37] response
[1:01:39] >> I'm allowing that amydala to stop
[1:01:41] spinning as much and I allow that
[1:01:43] frontal lobe to come on and then the
[1:01:45] narrative I'm telling myself is going to
[1:01:48] be significantly less negative and
[1:01:50] usually by that time that person has
[1:01:51] responded.
[1:01:52] >> Does that not also create more time in
[1:01:54] uncertainty though?
[1:01:55] >> Here's the deal. I think that if you are
[1:01:58] if you understand that that it's a very
[1:02:01] purposeful and mindful thing that you're
[1:02:02] doing if you if you know that that's
[1:02:04] what you're doing for your brain. You're
[1:02:06] not you're not just like stepping away
[1:02:08] and like you're like, "Okay, well maybe
[1:02:10] they'll respond in that time." I'm
[1:02:12] stepping away because I know that I need
[1:02:14] to give my brain
[1:02:17] time to just like stop overheating. like
[1:02:20] I want my amydala to stop spinning out
[1:02:22] of control. I want my frontal lobe to
[1:02:24] come online. I want to give it enough
[1:02:25] time to do that because I know that I
[1:02:27] will think better. I think that gives me
[1:02:31] I know that I'm using a tool. I'm not
[1:02:33] just sitting there.
[1:02:34] >> How has it been being a mom with this?
[1:02:37] Because when I think about even the
[1:02:40] well- balanced parents, there is
[1:02:42] anxiety. Where's my kid? They're late
[1:02:44] back from soccer practice. I don't know
[1:02:45] when they're going to come through the
[1:02:46] door. Who who are you going out with
[1:02:48] this evening? I have to assume that the
[1:02:50] disposition that you're going into
[1:02:52] parenting with
[1:02:54] can be great because you're going to be
[1:02:56] attuned to your child's needs, but can
[1:02:58] also be highly chaotic because you're
[1:03:02] going to feel worried.
[1:03:04] >> Yeah. I I think
[1:03:08] I mean it's chaotic, but I think all
[1:03:10] parenting is kind of chaotic to be
[1:03:12] honest with you. I think it's just it's
[1:03:13] a it's it's a wild ride. But I think
[1:03:17] that I'm very lucky because my husband
[1:03:20] is very measured and calm and patient.
[1:03:24] And so I think he is like such a good
[1:03:27] emotional barometer for all of us. And I
[1:03:30] think that in that context where I feel
[1:03:32] so much safety and so much, you know,
[1:03:35] we're all given kind of free reign to
[1:03:37] explore our feelings and to navigate
[1:03:39] through life. I think being emotionally
[1:03:41] sensitive as a parent has been really
[1:03:43] helpful for me and it's really helped me
[1:03:45] kind of understand because kids like can
[1:03:50] be very annoying. That's just part of
[1:03:52] being a kid.
[1:03:53] >> Well, reliably they grow up to be
[1:03:54] annoying adults as well.
[1:03:55] >> Yeah, they can be annoying. You totally
[1:03:58] but as kids there's stuff like even just
[1:04:00] like noise and and just like stuff that
[1:04:05] they do and you know they're not little
[1:04:07] adults. They're kids. Their frontal loes
[1:04:08] aren't developed. They don't know any
[1:04:10] better. But you're you're so tired and
[1:04:13] fatigued from this non-stop like
[1:04:15] marathon of parenting that sometimes
[1:04:16] it's it's hard to remember that. I think
[1:04:18] being emotionally sensitive, you look at
[1:04:20] your kid having a big emotional moment
[1:04:23] and you're like, I know what this feels
[1:04:25] like and I know what what can help you
[1:04:28] come out of it. And it's not going to be
[1:04:30] like snapping or yelling or like trying
[1:04:32] to pull you out of that moment by force.
[1:04:35] It's it's giving you that safety and
[1:04:37] that and that freedom to explore and
[1:04:39] figure out the solution for yourself and
[1:04:40] pull yourself out of it.
[1:04:42] >> Exercise, delay your response. What's
[1:04:44] your third favorite?
[1:04:45] >> My third favorite
[1:04:48] [gasps and sighs]
[1:04:49] um
[1:04:52] I think you'll like this is mindfulness.
[1:04:54] I think being like really really
[1:04:57] drilling down on the mindfulness and for
[1:04:58] me I think what is really important
[1:05:00] about this is not for I always thought
[1:05:03] that mindfulness is like factory reset
[1:05:06] like you got to be thinking about
[1:05:07] nothing like if you're doing meditation
[1:05:09] or something like that nothing is going
[1:05:10] on in your brain and I think the
[1:05:12] difference for me is giving myself
[1:05:17] the space to non-judgmentally just
[1:05:20] observe what's happening in my brain and
[1:05:22] like just observe what is going on and
[1:05:25] there you know there there was a study
[1:05:27] that came out of Yale that was looking
[1:05:28] at this mindfulness and like the power
[1:05:30] of like just observation instead of like
[1:05:32] judgmentally rushing to solve that
[1:05:34] feeling just looking at the feeling it
[1:05:37] reduces activation in the brain.
[1:05:40] >> Mhm. Yeah. [snorts] I mean that was
[1:05:41] something that I learned on that that
[1:05:43] meditation retreat. It's an interesting
[1:05:44] style of meditation Janna which is the
[1:05:46] one that I was doing. So with
[1:05:47] mindfulness it's a bit more brute forcy
[1:05:50] which is I think why it's become more
[1:05:52] popular. you have a thought, you notice
[1:05:54] the thought is there and then you sort
[1:05:56] of release it away. You almost it's not
[1:05:58] quite a pushing. It's more a opening of
[1:06:00] the hand. But with the school that I was
[1:06:04] doing, you you actually welcome that in.
[1:06:06] So you pull the thought toward yourself.
[1:06:08] So you see the part of you that goes um
[1:06:12] you start thinking about work and then
[1:06:14] you judge yourself of being distracted
[1:06:15] for thinking about work and then you
[1:06:17] notice both of those thoughts and you
[1:06:18] go, "Wow, there's that bit of me that
[1:06:21] thinks about work." like I'm really glad
[1:06:22] that I care that much about my pursuits.
[1:06:24] Like why don't you come like show some
[1:06:26] gratitude to that and then wow there's
[1:06:28] that bit of me that's judging me for not
[1:06:30] being good at this thing. He just wants
[1:06:32] to work so hard like he really wants to
[1:06:34] do this thing right and he's here to
[1:06:36] protect me and like you can come here as
[1:06:38] well and as you continue to do that it's
[1:06:40] a very different it was a very different
[1:06:41] experience especially doing I've done I
[1:06:44] don't know 2,000 2 and a half thousand
[1:06:45] sessions of across my life and then got
[1:06:49] thrust into this new school. I guess it
[1:06:50] must be similar to learning to kickbox
[1:06:53] your entire life and then going and
[1:06:54] doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu and you go,
[1:06:55] "Well, I'm still fighting somebody, but
[1:06:57] the way that I'm doing it, the domain is
[1:06:59] completely different." And um yeah, one
[1:07:01] of the things that was kind of
[1:07:02] interesting,
[1:07:03] >> at least with the the mindfulness part
[1:07:05] there was it's
[1:07:06] >> it's very much about emotional
[1:07:08] conductivity. It's about okay, how can I
[1:07:10] see what I'm feeling completely
[1:07:12] non-judgmentally? And I think that it's
[1:07:14] the same thing that you're getting at.
[1:07:15] With one of them, you're letting it go
[1:07:16] and with the other one, you're bringing
[1:07:17] it in. But for both of them there is a
[1:07:19] lack of judgment. Right. And I think
[1:07:21] that that shame spiral that we were
[1:07:22] talking about is
[1:07:24] >> you talked about kids there.
[1:07:27] >> What do you think Tik Tok is doing and
[1:07:29] social media? What do you think social
[1:07:31] media is doing to emotionally sensitive
[1:07:32] teenagers?
[1:07:35] >> Oh
[1:07:37] well. Okay. So here's the deal. I think
[1:07:39] I think social media is just a weird
[1:07:42] place in general. That that's coming
[1:07:44] from someone who is on social media. Um,
[1:07:48] I myself find I get triggered by social
[1:07:51] media all the time. I'm constantly
[1:07:53] comparing myself to others. I feel like
[1:07:55] my a lot of my
[1:07:59] dayto-day
[1:08:01] um relationship with selfworth for a
[1:08:03] long time was driven by numbers. Like
[1:08:04] how many likes did I get on a post? How
[1:08:06] much engagement am I getting? Like how
[1:08:08] like what's happening on that? That's
[1:08:10] what was driving like am I good at what
[1:08:13] I'm doing? Like is I was getting that
[1:08:15] external validation. I I am
[1:08:19] I'm a physician who's gone to med school
[1:08:22] and who studied the brain like and
[1:08:23] that's still happening to me. So for
[1:08:25] kids whose their frontal lobe isn't
[1:08:27] fully developed, I think they probably
[1:08:29] are at higher risk. And so I think that
[1:08:31] it's just a difficult
[1:08:34] I don't think I don't think completely
[1:08:37] like shielding them from social media
[1:08:41] and and from that entire world just like
[1:08:44] you can't really like the train is
[1:08:47] moving. You can't you can't completely
[1:08:49] shelter your kids from absolutely
[1:08:51] everything. You have to teach them how
[1:08:53] to navigate these constantly evolving
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[1:09:51] Can the way that you're raised in early
[1:09:54] childhood enhance your sensitivity? I
[1:09:56] don't know whether you've done much work
[1:09:58] into nature versus nurture for this.
[1:10:00] >> I think there is a huge part that's
[1:10:01] genetic. There is a huge part that also
[1:10:03] if you grow up in like this incredibly
[1:10:06] chaotic and tumultuous home, you are
[1:10:10] already hypervigilant. You're searching
[1:10:12] for cues. You you can be more
[1:10:15] emotionally sensitive because of that as
[1:10:18] well. Mhm.
[1:10:18] >> And then if those two things get
[1:10:20] combined.
[1:10:21] >> Yeah.
[1:10:22] >> Right. Okay. How early does rejection
[1:10:24] sensitivity emerge?
[1:10:25] >> You I mean you could see it in
[1:10:27] 2-year-olds, you could see it in
[1:10:28] three-year-olds,
[1:10:29] >> right? Are there some parenting
[1:10:30] behaviors you think that accidentally
[1:10:32] create emotional sensitivity or maybe
[1:10:35] even fragility?
[1:10:39] I don't I don't I think that there's
[1:10:41] some things that a lot of parents are
[1:10:45] doing in hopes that they are
[1:10:49] getting a more resilient child like
[1:10:50] teaching them you don't need to cry
[1:10:53] about this you need to move on you need
[1:10:55] to you know this isn't a big deal where
[1:10:58] and the way that I kind of have thought
[1:11:00] about those kind of because like even
[1:11:02] raising my own kids
[1:11:04] like I think about that all the time
[1:11:06] that isn't that big of a deal like My
[1:11:07] kid had a tantrum the other day that I
[1:11:09] wouldn't [laughter]
[1:11:10] give him the heel of like the loaf of
[1:11:13] bread and I was like that's objectively
[1:11:14] the worst part. Like you don't want
[1:11:16] that. I don't want to give it to you.
[1:11:17] And like it was like a huge thing. But
[1:11:20] then I was like this kid has [laughter]
[1:11:21] not dealt with like disappointment yet.
[1:11:26] It just it from what I'm understanding
[1:11:28] this is probably one of the worst things
[1:11:31] that has happened to date. Like he
[1:11:32] hasn't had a very hard life. So like I
[1:11:35] need to teach him how to navigate
[1:11:37] disappointment instead of being like
[1:11:38] this isn't a big deal. It probably is
[1:11:40] kind of a big deal to him. He really
[1:11:41] wants that heel of bread. And so it's,
[1:11:44] you know, and I don't really have a good
[1:11:45] reason not to give him it. But like I we
[1:11:48] just we had to navigate through that
[1:11:49] moment and like with big tantrums, you
[1:11:51] you deal with that, but I think it's
[1:11:54] easy in that moment to be like this is a
[1:11:56] dumb problem. Move on. I think the heel
[1:12:00] of bread is actually a really lovely
[1:12:01] meme for everything, which is working
[1:12:03] out the difference between validating
[1:12:05] feelings and encouraging victimhood. And
[1:12:07] this is in adulthood as well. You know,
[1:12:10] there can be a situation that you're in
[1:12:11] where what you're after is a heel of
[1:12:12] bread.
[1:12:13] >> And everybody around you and you
[1:12:16] yourself, the better version of you, has
[1:12:18] every right to go, "No, dude, you don't
[1:12:20] want that. Like, you're being silly.
[1:12:22] You're being ridiculous." Um, and again
[1:12:25] finding this difference and finding the
[1:12:27] line between validating somebody's
[1:12:29] feelings and going, "Hey, I know that
[1:12:31] you feel this way," but also not
[1:12:34] encouraging them to further
[1:12:39] weaken the uh resilience that they need
[1:12:44] emotionally. I think that's where the
[1:12:46] sort of rubber is really going to meet
[1:12:48] the road with this thing. How we got
[1:12:50] through that moment, this Hila bread
[1:12:52] moment, is I took out a hila bread and
[1:12:56] then I took out another piece of bread
[1:12:58] and I was like, "Let me just tell you,
[1:13:00] these are the two pieces of bread we
[1:13:01] were talking about and I know you want
[1:13:03] this one. Describe what you like about
[1:13:05] this one instead of this one." And then
[1:13:07] he's like, "No, I wanted this one
[1:13:08] instead." And so I like I think it was
[1:13:10] just like he was so stuck on this idea
[1:13:13] and like didn't get past it and like
[1:13:16] instead of just being like, "That's
[1:13:17] dumb." allowing him to actually see and
[1:13:20] get to that conclusion like I don't
[1:13:21] actually want the hila bread was helpful
[1:13:24] for us.
[1:13:25] >> How does RSD show up in work and
[1:13:28] achievement? Because I have to assume
[1:13:30] that these are the overachievers, the
[1:13:33] perfectionists.
[1:13:34] >> Sometimes but sometimes it actually
[1:13:37] before you can even get to that spot
[1:13:39] where you're kind of overcompensating,
[1:13:42] you're not even putting yourself out
[1:13:43] there. So, I have patients who have
[1:13:45] been, you know, I I couldn't even like I
[1:13:48] got spooked on the job interview and I
[1:13:50] like walked out. I couldn't do it. Like
[1:13:52] I I didn't feel like they liked me.
[1:13:54] >> Say you get past that spot and you're in
[1:13:56] the work environment. Sometimes you are
[1:13:59] so and you see this a lot with high
[1:14:01] achieving people and especially high
[1:14:03] achieving women.
[1:14:06] I think society there's just like this
[1:14:09] pressure on women to do everything to do
[1:14:13] it all and to just like not complain. So
[1:14:15] if another thing comes along their way,
[1:14:17] yes, I can do it. Yes, I could take that
[1:14:18] on. Yes, I could do all this stuff.
[1:14:20] >> And so you just what happens is that you
[1:14:25] start to override the signs of burnout
[1:14:27] and you just keep adding more and more
[1:14:29] and more onto your plate because you
[1:14:30] don't want to look like you're less than
[1:14:32] your peers. You don't want to look You
[1:14:33] don't want people to be like, "Ah, she
[1:14:35] was able to do that last week. Why can't
[1:14:36] she do that this week?" You don't want
[1:14:38] to look incapable and so you just keep
[1:14:40] adding more until you kind of reach that
[1:14:42] tipping point where you can't.
[1:14:44] >> Yeah. I think it's uh I I found this
[1:14:48] essay uh the ambitious mother paradox,
[1:14:51] good mother or wasted potential. It's
[1:14:53] really great. It's a quite a long read,
[1:14:54] but there's a a really interesting line
[1:14:56] here that says the implicit logic of
[1:14:59] protecting your right to work in the
[1:15:01] workforce was clear. You can't argue for
[1:15:03] equal access and then immediately ask
[1:15:05] for accommodation that implies you are
[1:15:07] different. That women have just been
[1:15:09] brought into the workplace. This is not
[1:15:10] something they want to be taken away
[1:15:11] from them. This is something that
[1:15:12] they're worried might be taken away from
[1:15:14] them. Mhm.
[1:15:15] >> And yet there are certain elements of
[1:15:18] many people's but often many women's
[1:15:21] psychologies that can make the workplace
[1:15:24] feel like kind of a spiky and
[1:15:26] unforgiving and a bit sterile and cold
[1:15:29] place to be. Like, hey, your emotional
[1:15:31] sensitivity in this like capitalist
[1:15:33] meritocratic, very fast-paced
[1:15:35] environment,
[1:15:37] >> there's not a massive amount of room for
[1:15:39] that.
[1:15:40] >> Yeah. And yet you also know as somebody
[1:15:42] who's just gotten into this highpowered
[1:15:43] career that you fought for this and
[1:15:45] everybody else, all of the other women
[1:15:46] that have just fought for this have just
[1:15:47] got here. And you're like, well, I like
[1:15:49] I really want to be here and I don't
[1:15:51] want it to be taken away from me. And
[1:15:53] now I feel bad about asking for
[1:15:55] accommodation that implies that I'm
[1:15:57] different, which is I feel this thing
[1:16:00] and the guys around me don't seem to be
[1:16:01] feeling it in quite the same way. Or
[1:16:02] maybe they're just able to suppress it
[1:16:04] more effectively than I am. Uh, I just
[1:16:06] thought it was such a I'd never really
[1:16:07] heard of anybody highlight the fact that
[1:16:11] there is a there's a tension like a
[1:16:13] bridge doing this in an earthquake
[1:16:15] that's moving in difficult directions
[1:16:18] that creates a sort of a pull on the
[1:16:20] system especially for women in the
[1:16:21] workplace especially for highly
[1:16:23] sensitive women in the workplace. I feel
[1:16:24] like I need to show up as the men that I
[1:16:27] think are the ones that are running the
[1:16:28] company, but I want to be one of the
[1:16:30] women that's maybe running the company,
[1:16:31] but I'm like denying part of the
[1:16:34] nurturing, empathetic people skills that
[1:16:37] I've got that are my competitive
[1:16:39] advantage. So, I need to perform in this
[1:16:40] way and I don't want to be seen as less
[1:16:42] than and I also want to protect it for
[1:16:44] everybody else, but I also don't want to
[1:16:46] deny myself and I might need to ask for
[1:16:48] a bit of support, but I'm worried if I
[1:16:49] have support that's accommodation for
[1:16:50] this brand new world. I just like it's
[1:16:52] hard. I reading that essay, this big
[1:16:54] massive essay by Taylor, I was like
[1:16:57] >> that's a lot. That's a lot to navigate.
[1:16:59] >> It's a lot. And then just like from a
[1:17:01] logistical perspective, there's also
[1:17:02] that, you know, child rearing falls in
[1:17:05] that. So all of a sudden you're at the
[1:17:06] peak of your career. You have a kid. You
[1:17:08] have to step away from that and then
[1:17:10] reintegrate and then all of a sudden
[1:17:12] you'll find that you know and you know
[1:17:15] it's probably because you did step away.
[1:17:19] it. Now, you know, you're it's almost as
[1:17:22] if everything you work towards kind of
[1:17:24] gets pulled away from you and you're
[1:17:26] you're
[1:17:28] everyone assumes that all of your
[1:17:30] priorities are completely different and
[1:17:31] and there's opportunities that are kept
[1:17:33] out of your reach. It's like it's a
[1:17:34] whole it can be very difficult to
[1:17:37] maneuver just from a logistical
[1:17:39] perspective as women are the ones
[1:17:41] bearing the children. I had a great
[1:17:44] conversation about dad brain, but also
[1:17:46] mom brain came up too. And the fact that
[1:17:49] if you have a kid as a mother, 2.5% gray
[1:17:53] matter lossish. Like that really does
[1:17:56] not basically anything that requires
[1:17:58] executive function that is not your
[1:18:00] child gets pruned a little bit.
[1:18:02] >> Yeah.
[1:18:03] >> And that means Yeah. You're if you were
[1:18:05] the EA to some high-powered CEO and you
[1:18:08] were basically running his entire life
[1:18:10] or you're the chief of staff, right? and
[1:18:11] you before were just this absolute
[1:18:13] military killer. You could go you knew
[1:18:15] exactly what was going on at all times
[1:18:16] and now it feels like there's fluff in
[1:18:18] your brain. You go, "Huh, I I again,
[1:18:21] this is another situation where I think
[1:18:23] compatibility and one thing that would
[1:18:25] be cool, I know that other people, this
[1:18:27] isn't my idea, but suggesting that
[1:18:30] mothers look at um
[1:18:34] transitioning careers to things that
[1:18:36] utilize this new skill set, not to see
[1:18:38] it as a weakness, right? not to go, I
[1:18:41] want to be the person that I was when I
[1:18:42] was 25 and I had literally a different
[1:18:44] brain and different priorities and a
[1:18:46] different stage of life as opposed to
[1:18:47] going, huh, I've just unlocked this
[1:18:50] entire new world. Maybe becoming a
[1:18:52] therapist would be like a really
[1:18:54] incredible opportunity for me to focus
[1:18:57] this brand new level of empathy. That
[1:18:59] would be that would be great.
[1:19:00] >> Flip side.
[1:19:01] >> Yes.
[1:19:02] >> Flip side is have those environments
[1:19:04] accommodate those changes. understand
[1:19:06] that those those changes are happening
[1:19:08] to women and that you know priorities
[1:19:10] shift and instead of putting them in the
[1:19:12] same roles pivot their roles so they can
[1:19:15] utilize some of those skills that they
[1:19:17] have. I so same sort of thing but inside
[1:19:20] of the same company I think that's a
[1:19:21] great idea. I get the sense and this is
[1:19:24] a culture and narrative change that
[1:19:26] would need to be made. I get the sense
[1:19:27] that a lot of women would feel that as
[1:19:30] being if it was imposed on them
[1:19:33] >> I'm less than now. or you're saying that
[1:19:35] I can't do what I used to do.
[1:19:36] >> And in some ways, what you're trying to
[1:19:39] open up is no, I'm saying that you're
[1:19:40] better at doing other things that you
[1:19:42] couldn't do previously. There's two ways
[1:19:44] to look at it, right? What have I lost?
[1:19:45] What have I gained? And we're saying
[1:19:46] this is something you've gained. Why
[1:19:48] don't we utilize this new skill?
[1:19:50] >> As opposed to this is something you've
[1:19:52] lost. Why don't we get you away from
[1:19:53] using that old skill? and just the
[1:19:56] framing. But I I I don't
[1:19:57] >> framing and the valitional component
[1:19:59] like if if if the woman felt like, you
[1:20:02] know what, this is where I could spend
[1:20:04] more time and I could utilize these
[1:20:07] skill sets a little bit better. Like I
[1:20:09] think I think at the end of the day
[1:20:11] should be kind of her choice and her her
[1:20:13] pushing that kind of decision.
[1:20:15] >> Yeah, I agree. Creating the culture that
[1:20:18] makes that not feel like just chalking
[1:20:20] up an L.
[1:20:21] >> Yeah. is that is where an external
[1:20:25] influence can uh adapt like an internal
[1:20:29] desire you know oh the way that this is
[1:20:32] framed externally what society says I
[1:20:34] should be doing
[1:20:36] >> actually makes me feel more or less
[1:20:38] comfortable with doing it and I think
[1:20:39] you know the ruthless part of this and
[1:20:41] this is for every woman that runs a
[1:20:43] career let alone every man it's like
[1:20:45] >> the market doesn't give a [ __ ]
[1:20:47] >> and ultimately businesses need to run
[1:20:49] businesses that are profitable and are
[1:20:51] growing And that is where again
[1:20:55] finding that line between validation and
[1:21:00] when do you push, when do you pivot at
[1:21:02] some point that has to be and this is
[1:21:04] the same thing is true for guys. Same
[1:21:05] thing is true for like you can't be if
[1:21:08] your testosterone is dropping and if
[1:21:10] you're not quite as mentally quick at 65
[1:21:14] you're probably not going to be the same
[1:21:16] killer salesman that you were at 28.
[1:21:18] >> Sure.
[1:21:20] This is the market doesn't care. I'm
[1:21:23] sorry. Like you've come up and you've
[1:21:24] shown all of the but anyway I here's how
[1:21:26] I've like thinking about this whole
[1:21:28] conversation and thinking about your
[1:21:30] book. Sensitivity is the input and
[1:21:32] emotional intelligence is the output
[1:21:34] feels like the equation that we're
[1:21:36] playing with. Is that a fair assessment?
[1:21:38] >> Mhm.
[1:21:38] >> Yeah.
[1:21:39] >> Yeah.
[1:21:40] >> Yeah.
[1:21:41] >> And that gives people certain advantages
[1:21:44] and it gives people certain challenges
[1:21:46] as well.
[1:21:47] >> Yeah. I think emotional sensitivity as a
[1:21:49] whole, I think that it's something that
[1:21:52] can be difficult and it can be wonderful
[1:21:55] and it's just I I know like as a person
[1:21:59] who's gone through this and as a
[1:22:01] physician who's gone through medical
[1:22:02] school and psychiatry training and all
[1:22:04] this, this was never taught. People
[1:22:07] aren't taught about how to actually in a
[1:22:10] very real and tangible way deal with
[1:22:11] their emotions. And I think that
[1:22:13] emotional stuff like when you're looking
[1:22:15] at because a lot of my research was on
[1:22:17] ADHD. When you're looking at ADHD, like
[1:22:20] a lot of that like executive function
[1:22:21] and all that stuff like to some degree
[1:22:23] you can you can find a hack or you can
[1:22:26] delegate or you can do you can't do that
[1:22:28] with emotions.
[1:22:29] >> Yeah. They're just in you and you can't
[1:22:31] show them to anybody else.
[1:22:32] >> No, you can't like you have to be able
[1:22:34] to process and get through on the other
[1:22:36] side. if you are completely consumed by
[1:22:39] them or if you're having a hard time
[1:22:40] regulating them, I mean, you're not
[1:22:43] going to be able to think. You're not
[1:22:44] going to be able to move on from that
[1:22:45] moment. It takes so much brain space.
[1:22:47] And so, that's that's one of the things
[1:22:49] that I hope that this book will help
[1:22:53] give people a little bit more agency
[1:22:54] over their emotions.
[1:22:57] >> If there's someone
[1:22:59] that feels like they're in the world and
[1:23:02] it's too spiky for their emotions, what
[1:23:04] would you want them to take away? What
[1:23:05] would you want to tell them?
[1:23:06] >> They just don't have the tools yet. Just
[1:23:10] like it it they life is hard. This world
[1:23:13] is hard. And I think being emotionally
[1:23:16] sensitive it for so many of us is a
[1:23:20] beautiful thing is a beautiful thing.
[1:23:22] It's just it's sometimes really
[1:23:23] difficult to keep your head above water
[1:23:26] when emotions are big. And so having
[1:23:28] those tools and being able to grab hold
[1:23:30] of them and use them in appropriate
[1:23:33] times is lifechanging.
[1:23:36] >> Dr. Sasha Hamdani, ladies and gentlemen,
[1:23:37] you're great. I appreciate you going
[1:23:39] into the murky depths of people with way
[1:23:42] too many emotions.
[1:23:42] >> Yeah.
[1:23:43] >> Where should people go to check out
[1:23:44] everything you've got going on?
[1:23:46] >> So I'm on Instagram, I'm on Tik Tok, I'm
[1:23:48] on YouTube, and it's the Psych Doctor MD
[1:23:51] >> and the new book.
[1:23:52] >> And the new book, Too Sensitive, which
[1:23:54] is out um August 25th. Heck yeah.
[1:23:57] Appreciate you. All right. Goodbye, my
[1:23:58] beauties.
[1:24:00] >> Yes.
[1:24:00] >> Yay. We did it.
[1:24:02] >> Congratulations. You made it to the end
[1:24:04] of a podcast episode without dying. Now,
[1:24:07] here's another one.
[1:24:09] Go on. [music] Watch it.