Transcript
[0:00] How do you know you talk too much? So,
[0:02] first thing is non-verbal cues. Someone
[0:03] is checking out if they are [music]
[0:05] opening their mouth as if to say
[0:07] something. I call it like the open fish.
[0:09] And that's a [music] subtle cue that you
[0:10] talk too much.
[0:11] >> Do you think they're listening right now
[0:12] and think that's me?
[0:13] >> Yes.
[0:13] >> And there was a recent study where they
[0:14] found that 95% of people have worked
[0:17] with someone who talks too much.
[0:19] >> Well, I have a do you talk too much
[0:20] test?
[0:20] >> So, there's five questions here and if
[0:22] you answer more than three times, you're
[0:24] probably an overtalker.
[0:25] >> Yeah.
[0:26] >> Cuz my next question is like which one's
[0:27] worse, over talking or underalking?
[0:28] Well, I have spent the last 20 years
[0:30] studying master conversationalists and I
[0:32] found that it's the vehicle to get what
[0:34] you want and I'm a recovering awkward
[0:36] person and I really struggled with bad
[0:37] conversation for a long time. But I
[0:39] think the next generations [music]
[0:40] will be talking to technology more than
[0:42] they talk to humans. And because we're
[0:44] having less conversations, one in six
[0:46] people worldwide are affected by
[0:48] loneliness. And I now more than ever am
[0:49] sending 9-minute voice notes to my
[0:51] friends. But a voice note, it's the most
[0:53] selfish form of conversation. that in
[0:55] this age of technological change, the
[0:57] people who are masterful at conversation
[0:59] are going to have an advantage. But
[1:01] there's a blueprint to good
[1:03] conversation. And once you know the
[1:04] blueprint, it becomes easier. For
[1:05] example, we devised three different
[1:07] speed networking experiments with
[1:08] [music] 500 speed networkers. And the
[1:10] best conversation starter was actually
[1:12] what was the highlight of your day?
[1:14] Because the moment we asked how are you,
[1:15] what do you do? They ran out of things
[1:17] to talk about. But the worst question in
[1:18] the history of conversations is but I
[1:20] also have a formula to immediately
[1:23] bypass that small talk. Also a secret
[1:25] door to charisma but also there are five
[1:27] archetypes and this is going to impact
[1:29] getting [music] our promotion and
[1:30] finding your soulmate.
[1:31] >> We're going to go through all of them
[1:32] but one of the ways to get out of a bad
[1:34] conversation without offending people.
[1:35] >> Well, we tend to focus a lot on the
[1:36] first impression, but we don't really
[1:38] think about the end. But it's all really
[1:40] important and I discovered this
[1:41] framework. So
[1:44] >> here is a strange fact. Most of the
[1:46] people watching this right now, about
[1:47] 58% of you, aren't yet subscribed to
[1:50] this channel. Statistically, that is
[1:51] probably you. So, could I ask you a
[1:54] small favor? If this channel has ever
[1:56] given you any value at all, please could
[1:58] you do me a favor and hit the subscribe
[1:59] button. It costs nothing. It helps us
[2:01] more than you could know. And the bigger
[2:02] the channel gets, as you've seen, the
[2:04] more we can invest in the guests and the
[2:05] production. So, thank you so much, and I
[2:07] hope you enjoy this episode. [music]
[2:12] Vanessa Van Edwards, on page five of
[2:15] your new book, Conversations, you talk
[2:17] about how we're in a connection crisis,
[2:20] and you say that conversations are
[2:22] getting harder, more awkward, and less
[2:24] satisfying.
[2:26] >> At some level, I feel that too. My
[2:29] question to you is, why did you choose
[2:30] to write this book based on, you know,
[2:32] everything you could have written about,
[2:33] everything we've talked about before?
[2:34] Why is this book needed at this time?
[2:36] People who are investing in conversation
[2:38] skills right now are creating career
[2:41] insurance. We like to work with people
[2:43] who are great at conversation. We like
[2:45] to be with people who are great at
[2:46] conversation. We like to date people who
[2:48] are good at conversation. And in this
[2:50] age of tremendous
[2:53] technological change, the people who are
[2:56] masterful at conversation are going to
[2:58] have an advantage. So, I wrote this
[3:01] right now because we are slowly losing
[3:04] our ability to connect. And I think this
[3:07] is the last generation that will
[3:13] learn about conversation via human. I
[3:16] think the next generations will be
[3:18] talking to technology more than they
[3:20] talk to humans.
[3:21] >> Is it possible to be great at
[3:23] conversation? And if I become great at
[3:24] conversation through what we're about to
[3:26] talk about today, what is the advantage
[3:28] that you're speaking about there? What
[3:29] advantage will I experience in my life?
[3:30] For everybody listening now, what
[3:32] advantage will they see in their life
[3:33] relative to where they are now?
[3:35] >> Conversation is the vehicle to get what
[3:37] you want, right? If you want a promotion
[3:40] and you can chat with your boss where
[3:41] they connect with you, you're more
[3:42] likely to be thought of for that
[3:44] promotion. If you want to meet your
[3:45] soulmate, you have to have deep,
[3:46] connected, meaningful conversation to
[3:48] truly get to know each other. If you are
[3:50] lonely, finding friends that are
[3:52] actually fulfilling and give you the joy
[3:54] of conversation is going to give you a
[3:56] longevity boost. I think that the
[3:59] mistake that we have made is we think of
[4:02] conversation as extra. You know, we sort
[4:05] of put it second. I know leaders focus
[4:07] on this a lot where they're focused so
[4:08] much on their idea, on their technology,
[4:10] on their business, but they forget about
[4:12] the human element. And [snorts] I think
[4:14] we have to start thinking about
[4:15] conversation almost like going to the
[4:17] gym. You know, we we focused a lot on
[4:19] our physical health, but our social
[4:21] health is critical to our emotional
[4:23] health, right? If we are doing
[4:25] conversation reps, if we can truly
[4:27] become good at conversation and
[4:28] conversation, I think is a skill to
[4:30] learn. I don't think it you're born with
[4:31] it or you're not. I think you can learn
[4:33] to be good at conversation. And it's the
[4:34] one skill that keeps on giving.
[4:36] >> Do people tend to know if they're good
[4:38] or bad at conversation? Like are there
[4:40] symptoms one experiences when they when
[4:42] they're not good at conversation? Are
[4:44] they aware of that?
[4:45] >> Yes, there is symptoms of being a bad
[4:48] conversationalist. And by the way, I
[4:49] should back up. As you know, I'm a
[4:51] recovering awkward person
[4:53] and I really struggled with bad
[4:55] conversation for a long time. And I
[4:57] realized it was because I was asking the
[4:59] wrong questions and I was approaching
[5:01] conversation the wrong way. And the
[5:03] wrong way to approach conversation is
[5:04] trying to impress, not discover.
[5:07] If you're trying to impress people,
[5:09] conversation becomes performative. And
[5:11] that is so deeply unfulfilling. Right?
[5:14] That is when small talk becomes soul
[5:16] crushing.
[5:17] >> [snorts]
[5:17] >> I have spent the last 20 years studying
[5:20] master conversationalists.
[5:22] Master conversationalists, they live
[5:24] differently in the world, and I only
[5:25] know this cuz I wasn't one for a long
[5:27] time. They are not only more joyous, but
[5:31] they're also more confident. They're
[5:33] more authentically assertive. They get
[5:35] more energy from interactions, whether
[5:37] they're an introvert or extrovert,
[5:38] because their conversations are giving
[5:40] them energy, not taking energy. The
[5:42] symptom of bad conversation and I I hate
[5:44] to give someone a label of being a bad
[5:45] conversationalist, an exhausted
[5:47] conversationalist is you dread it. Dread
[5:50] is a really important emotion. If you
[5:52] open your calendar and you see only
[5:54] dread or you feel only dread, there's
[5:56] something wrong, right? Conversation
[5:58] like boosts us, gives us energy. So you
[6:00] feel dread in social interactions. Um
[6:02] you feel overwhelmed when you're in
[6:05] conversation. So if you're in
[6:06] conversation and you're social
[6:07] overthinking, you cannot turn your brain
[6:09] off. All you're worried about is what
[6:10] you're going to say next. It's actually
[6:11] just because you probably haven't
[6:12] learned the mechanics of conversation
[6:14] blue. There's a blueprint to good
[6:16] conversation. We're going to talk about
[6:17] it. Once you know the blueprint, it
[6:18] becomes easier. And the last symptom of
[6:21] bad conversation is that you leave
[6:23] feeling misunderstood.
[6:25] You leave feeling like I was the worst
[6:27] version of myself or I wasn't able to be
[6:29] my best self. I think really good
[6:31] conversationalist people leave
[6:32] conversation with them thinking, wow, I
[6:35] after talking to you, I feel like I
[6:37] understand myself better. And that's a
[6:39] very different way of thinking about oh
[6:40] I want to impress somebody.
[6:42] >> So how long have you spent doing the
[6:44] research that feeds into what we're
[6:45] going to talk about today and feeds into
[6:47] this new book.
[6:47] >> Okay. So accidentally I've been doing
[6:49] research for this my whole life because
[6:50] I was very bad at conversation for 20
[6:52] years. Then 20 years ago I realized that
[6:55] there are these hidden blueprints behind
[6:57] our interactions. I wasn't quite sure
[6:58] what they were but I could see that very
[7:00] good conversationalists they were
[7:02] following some kind of plan. Then eight
[7:05] years ago, this is when the real
[7:06] research began. And it started with an
[7:08] experiment. I call it my speed
[7:10] networking experiment. This
[7:12] fundamentally changed the way I think
[7:13] about conversations. So here's what we
[7:14] did. I knew there was some secret the
[7:17] conversationalists had and I was like,
[7:18] I'm going to find it. So we devised
[7:21] three different speed networking
[7:22] experiments with 500 speed networkers.
[7:24] We brought them in these rooms and we
[7:26] had cameras set up in all four corners
[7:27] of the room because good conversation
[7:29] looks different. Really good
[7:31] conversation. You've seen you do you
[7:32] ever like you know show a lot [laughter]
[7:35] >> of restroom like are they having a bad
[7:37] day? Um, so you know a good conversation
[7:40] is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning.
[7:42] It, you know, has that high energy. You
[7:44] see a lot of vocal charisma. The volume
[7:45] goes up. In a bad conversation, it sort
[7:48] of sounds like this.
[7:53] [laughter] Like it has like very low
[7:54] energy, like apologetic facial
[7:56] expressions, like low volume. Then I
[7:58] assigned these networkers six
[8:01] conversation starters. Now, I picked
[8:02] these conversation starters. I'm going
[8:03] to tell you what they are very
[8:04] carefully. Three of them I thought could
[8:07] do really well and three of them I
[8:09] wasn't sure about. I wanted to see. We
[8:11] gave them these six conversation
[8:13] charters and we asked them after each
[8:14] timed conversation to rate the quality
[8:17] of it. One being that was the worst most
[8:20] awkward conversation I've ever had to
[8:22] five being that was the best
[8:24] conversation I ever had. I want to marry
[8:25] this person or I want to connect with
[8:26] them on LinkedIn. Then we took all these
[8:28] ratings and we ranked them and there
[8:30] were clear winners and clear losers. The
[8:32] losers, the conversations that produced
[8:34] the worst connection, the most
[8:36] awkwardness were last choice. Want to
[8:38] guess what last choice was?
[8:40] >> Last
[8:40] >> in terms of an opener
[8:41] >> in in terms of just a question.
[8:44] A typical question you ask my first
[8:46] minutes.
[8:47] >> Number five, that was the fifth worst.
[8:48] Very close to the bottom. Sixth was
[8:51] >> something about the weather.
[8:52] >> That what do you do?
[8:54] >> What do you do? That was the worst.
[8:55] >> The worst.
[8:56] >> Okay.
[8:57] >> Why? So these last two, how are you and
[8:59] what do you do? They're very socially
[9:00] scripted, right? The moment we ask those
[9:02] questions, our brain goes into
[9:03] autopilot. So, uh there's a lack there a
[9:06] is more of a performance. There's a lack
[9:07] of like excitement in the conversation
[9:10] and they ran out of things to talk
[9:11] about. They're fact-based questions and
[9:13] this is the trap of what we'll call
[9:14] level one conversation which is you are
[9:18] trapped in fact. Where are you from? Got
[9:21] any kids? Married? The facts are dead
[9:23] ends, right? So, they're there it's very
[9:25] hard for someone to break out of that
[9:27] fact because they're stuck in that
[9:28] social that social script. The best
[9:30] conversation starter was actually a
[9:32] sneaker. I was like, interesting that
[9:34] this one did best by lot. It was, "What
[9:37] was the highlight of your day?"
[9:39] Now, what this question does
[9:40] psychologically, it sounds casual. Well,
[9:42] first of all, it's not too deep. A
[9:44] mistake that extroverts can make is they
[9:46] ask too deep too question too quickly,
[9:48] right? They they're like, "What is your
[9:50] greatest goal in life?" And you're like,
[9:51] "I don't know you." Right? So, it's not
[9:54] too deep, but it's a subtle replacement
[9:57] for how are you? You're actually asking
[10:00] the other person's brain to search for
[10:02] optimism. You're literally inviting
[10:04] their brain to think like what was good
[10:05] and then they think well highlight of my
[10:06] day. So one we just broke autopilot. The
[10:08] most the moment someone goes oh and
[10:10] they're thinking for the first time
[10:12] their brain goes oo we get to we get to
[10:14] do something new. So they got to think
[10:16] of something new and it was immediate
[10:17] like it wasn't like a too big of a
[10:19] question.
[10:19] >> The second question was have anything
[10:22] exciting you're working on.
[10:23] >> This is kind of a subtle replacement for
[10:25] what do you do? Right? Right? If someone
[10:27] likes what they do, they're going to
[10:28] talk about it, but they're going to
[10:29] reframe it in something exciting. And if
[10:31] someone someone isn't defined by what
[10:33] they do, they're going to share
[10:34] something better. The third question,
[10:36] very, very simple, was do you have any
[10:38] fun plans coming up? These questions,
[10:41] the three first three are literally
[10:43] searching for good. You're inviting
[10:46] other person to only think about good
[10:48] things and we're juicing excitement for
[10:50] other parts of their life. Now, the
[10:52] fourth question, the middle one, almost
[10:55] broke my data.
[10:56] And this is where things really got
[10:58] interesting for me as a researcher. This
[11:00] fourth question, people either loved it
[11:03] or they hated it. They either gave it a
[11:06] five, that was like the most connective
[11:08] thing I felt all week, or a zero. And a
[11:10] zero wasn't even an option on my scale.
[11:13] It was the question, what's your story?
[11:17] Now, what's your story? Have you ever
[11:19] been asked that question, by the way?
[11:21] >> Derivatives of that question.
[11:22] >> Okay. So extroverts tend to default to
[11:26] that question because they want to go a
[11:27] little bit deeper. But actually that is
[11:29] a level three question. It is way too
[11:32] advanced for someone who's introverted
[11:34] or someone who has never like framed
[11:36] their story that quickly. They're
[11:37] immediately put into cortisol. They're
[11:39] immediately put into fight or flight.
[11:40] They're like what's my story? Like how
[11:43] can I give that to you so quickly? So
[11:44] you're by accident putting them into
[11:47] conversational fear. This is when I
[11:50] realize there's a hierarchy.
[11:52] We have to move through our
[11:54] conversations with different levels,
[11:55] right? This is why we have this.
[11:57] >> So for anyone that can't see because
[11:58] you're listening on Apple Music or
[11:59] Spotify or whatever, we have a three
[12:02] tier little stage in front of us. Tier
[12:05] one, tier two, tier three. What are
[12:07] these three tiers?
[12:08] >> Okay, so Dr. Dan McAdams found that
[12:12] conversation is actually not as fluid as
[12:14] we would like to think. that actually
[12:17] when we're trying to connect with
[12:18] someone else, we are trying to move
[12:19] through three distinct levels. Level one
[12:22] is called general traits. This is why in
[12:25] those first few minutes you're basically
[12:26] trying to Google fact check someone like
[12:28] where are you from? What do you do?
[12:30] Married? Where do you live in LA? Right?
[12:31] Like you're trying to ask all those
[12:33] questions because there's a sort of
[12:35] social hierarchy. Our brain processes
[12:37] social facts from least least intimate
[12:42] to most intimate. So we cannot get to
[12:44] know someone on their deepest dreams and
[12:47] worries if we don't know the basic facts
[12:49] about them. So that is why we often fall
[12:52] into that trap of those fact-based
[12:54] questions. The key here is that really
[12:57] good level one question is taking those
[12:59] facts but adding story but adding
[13:02] emotion. So the the best way to to do
[13:05] level one better is you're swapping out
[13:07] those bad questions, right? How are you?
[13:09] What do you do with looking for a story?
[13:12] I truly believe a fact is a is a stop
[13:15] sign. A story is a doorway.
[13:16] >> Give me an example of both.
[13:17] >> Okay. So, um one of them we're actually
[13:19] we can place it on here is what's your
[13:21] personal passion project? Okay. Now,
[13:23] what's your personal passion project is
[13:24] actually a hunt for stories, right?
[13:27] >> And would you open with that? Is that
[13:28] what you're saying? Or is it doesn't
[13:29] really matter?
[13:29] >> It has to come it can come in the first
[13:31] few minutes. Now, I probably wouldn't
[13:32] walk into a room and be like, "What's
[13:34] your personal passion project, Stephen?"
[13:36] Right? It's it's a little bit much. We
[13:37] have to do our basic first impression
[13:39] and we can talk about you know first 10
[13:40] words in a little bit but as an opener
[13:43] question it's better than how are you
[13:45] and I have to pause here and say
[13:48] everything I'm going to share takes a
[13:49] little bit of conversational courage
[13:52] >> it's really safe to ask how are you
[13:55] really safe to ask what do you do but if
[13:57] you want to be memorable if you want to
[13:58] actually spark connection those won't
[14:00] serve you so it does take a little bit
[14:02] of courage to ask this but the answers
[14:03] you're going to get are incredibly
[14:05] interesting you're going to get stories
[14:06] you're going to a hint at values. If you
[14:09] want to know if they're married or have
[14:10] kids, they probably will tell you by
[14:12] accident. So, it's like a hunt for
[14:14] stories. Same with, right, I mentioned
[14:16] this one in the study. So, working on
[14:18] anything exciting these days. This is
[14:20] again one of my favorite swap questions
[14:21] cuz you're hunting for something good.
[14:22] Now, when I think about conversation in
[14:25] level one, you're trying to gift someone
[14:28] a chemical cocktail a little bit. And I
[14:31] think in level one, these two questions
[14:33] are doing a lot of heavy lifting. They
[14:35] are now competing with your feed. I went
[14:39] uh to a PTA meeting recently and those
[14:41] are torture if you've ever been to one
[14:43] for any parents. PTA meeting. Oh, a
[14:45] parent teacher meeting.
[14:46] >> Okay.
[14:46] >> Right. So, a bunch of other parents in
[14:48] the room and I wanted to go meet other
[14:51] moms cuz I just moved across the country
[14:52] to try to meet more people. And I was
[14:55] like excited. I was like, "Okay, I'm
[14:56] going to meet more moms. Here we go."
[14:57] And I walk in the room and everyone's
[15:00] scrolling. Everyone's on their feed. And
[15:02] I realized, wow, conversation now. not
[15:05] is not just about a way for me to make
[15:07] friends. It actually has to compete with
[15:09] that feed.
[15:10] >> Mhm.
[15:10] >> I have to make my questions and my
[15:12] answers so dopamine worthy that they're
[15:15] actually going to beat that feed.
[15:17] Otherwise, they're going to go right
[15:17] back to their phone.
[15:19] That is why these have to do more
[15:21] lifting. Because if I want to compete
[15:23] with the feed, I have to produce
[15:24] dopamine, a little bit of excitement, a
[15:26] little bit of motivation. I also have to
[15:28] create what I would call, forgive me for
[15:30] this word, but conversational confetti.
[15:34] This is like we got to we got to lift a
[15:36] little bit more in our conversations
[15:38] because otherwise someone's going to go
[15:39] right back to scrolling. Their brain is
[15:41] somewhere else. Either their brain is in
[15:43] their email list or their brain is on
[15:44] their feed. In this research when I was
[15:46] studying amazing conversationalists, one
[15:48] of the one people I studied is Howard
[15:50] Stern. So, however you feel about Howard
[15:53] Stern, he is a master conversationalist.
[15:55] I mean, he can carry on long very
[15:57] interesting. He gets people to say
[15:59] things that I could never imagine. So, I
[16:01] analyzed thousands of transcripts of his
[16:04] interviews and I found one pattern. He
[16:06] does a very good job of creating
[16:08] information gaps. So, he'll say, "What's
[16:12] the weirdest thing you've ever done?"
[16:15] Or he'll say, "The most surprising thing
[16:18] I heard that happened to me yesterday.
[16:19] You want to hear what it was?" And your
[16:21] brain doesn't like not knowing. So, when
[16:23] it hears the most surprising, the
[16:24] weirdest, the biggest, the worst, the
[16:26] most embarrassing, the brain creates
[16:28] this gap. like this is information gap
[16:29] where the brain is like I have to know
[16:31] >> what is the weirdest thing. So also what
[16:33] happens with these kinds of questions is
[16:35] we're creating these little information
[16:37] gaps and actually saying and using in
[16:39] conversation these phrases is a way that
[16:42] we can create more intrigue and
[16:44] interest. And I I know that sounds like
[16:47] what? But think about this. If something
[16:49] crazy happened to you yesterday and you
[16:51] walk into dinner and you're like guys
[16:53] the craziest thing happened to me
[16:54] yesterday. Everyone's like phone's down.
[16:56] >> Mhm. Right now, I couldn't say something
[16:58] boring. I couldn't be like, I was stuck
[16:59] in traffic unless you want to be funny.
[17:02] >> But I think that looking for
[17:03] opportunities to create that little bit
[17:05] of conversational confetti, they come up
[17:07] with questions like this.
[17:09] >> This is the last one.
[17:10] >> So, have any fun plans coming up? Now,
[17:15] the reason why this one is important,
[17:16] and I agonized over this, over this
[17:18] third question, cuz there's three
[17:19] questions for each level, is have any
[17:21] fun plans coming up, is a subtle way to
[17:25] bring up potential shared future.
[17:28] Psychologically speaking, we bond with
[17:30] someone when we feel like we could do
[17:33] something fun with them or they're doing
[17:34] something fun that I would also like to
[17:36] do. I think that part of these questions
[17:38] is being known for asking better
[17:40] questions like being known for searching
[17:43] for hunt or hunting for excitement
[17:44] because what will happen is with people
[17:46] who know you at work or your work
[17:47] friends or uh outside of work friends is
[17:50] they'll bring these things to you. They
[17:51] know that you're going to ask out
[17:52] personal passions. So next time you get
[17:54] to say, "Hey, last time we were talking
[17:56] you mentioned XYZ. How's that going?" So
[18:00] they also become your call backs. They
[18:02] make conversation easier later.
[18:05] Everybody's starting from a remarkably
[18:07] different place here, aren't they? In in
[18:09] terms of both skill, but also like will
[18:13] >> and energy and like willing to do it.
[18:14] >> Energy. Like I think there'll be a lot
[18:15] of uh one might say introverts listening
[18:18] right now that just think what's the
[18:19] point? Like
[18:20] >> you know I don't like people anyway and
[18:22] it's so much energy and I've got to ask
[18:24] these questions and pretend to be
[18:25] interested. This is going to drain me.
[18:26] >> Oh my gosh. I I agree. And two things
[18:29] can be true. It's very exhausting in the
[18:33] sense of you're trying, right? Like
[18:35] we're putting energy into conversation,
[18:37] but it's also exhausting to have really
[18:39] shallow small talk.
[18:41] >> I find it exhausting to stand at an
[18:43] event or be smoozing with people
[18:45] backstage and be talking about nothing.
[18:47] Do you want to have very boring,
[18:49] predictable conversation where you're
[18:51] less memorable and they're less
[18:52] memorable and you're just waiting to get
[18:53] home to Netflix? That's one heart.
[18:56] That's not what I would choose. Or do we
[18:58] choose the heart of I'm gonna break a
[19:00] script, right? I'm gonna try to do level
[19:03] one better. I'm going to try to, you
[19:05] know, trigger a little bit of dopamine.
[19:06] I'm going to try to learn something that
[19:07] I didn't know before, which is going to
[19:09] maybe, just maybe, bring joy. If you get
[19:12] a really great answer, by the way,
[19:13] there's two sides of conversation,
[19:15] talking and asking.
[19:16] >> I I think even for those introverts,
[19:18] they have really, really big goals in
[19:21] their life that they care about. Yeah.
[19:34] >> Cuz if you can tell me how asking have
[19:37] any fun plans coming up is going to help
[19:39] me become a better CEO or founder or
[19:42] >> whoever I want to be, father, mom,
[19:44] daughter, whatever, then I'm in.
[19:46] >> Yes. Okay. So, let's talk about founders
[19:49] and CEOs specifically. There is a
[19:51] mistaken belief and I work with a lot of
[19:53] companies, right? I work with a lot of
[19:54] founders. They believe that conversation
[19:57] is anti-productive.
[19:59] They worry that I don't know if I want
[20:02] my employees to talk a lot. You know, I
[20:04] I can't waste time on small talk.
[20:07] The research shows the opposite. And
[20:09] also, logically, if you think this
[20:11] through, connected people collaborate
[20:14] better.
[20:16] Engaged employees work better together.
[20:20] We are more productive when we feel
[20:22] good. And in fact, the key word here is
[20:25] friction. When you have a company who
[20:28] that has a lot of communication
[20:30] friction, you have employees who doubt
[20:33] themselves. You don't have psychological
[20:35] safety. They have a really hard time
[20:36] brainstorming. You have people who
[20:37] withhold information. You have more
[20:40] information silos. Communication
[20:42] friction cost companies money. And so if
[20:46] you have a community of employees who
[20:47] have very easy level one, they don't
[20:49] need to get to level three. Like you
[20:50] don't need to get to level three with
[20:51] everyone in your company. You don't need
[20:52] to get to level three with your Uber
[20:53] driver. But if you have really easy
[20:55] smell small talk, easy banter where
[20:58] someone knows, oh yeah, I know exactly
[20:59] what their personal passion project is.
[21:01] I know who they are. I know what fun
[21:02] plans they have coming up. The first 5
[21:04] minutes of your meeting becomes not only
[21:06] frictionless but actually pleasurable.
[21:09] People show up on time. People are more
[21:11] productive. People want to be there
[21:13] because they actually want to connect
[21:14] and and collaborate with her and this is
[21:16] remote or in person, right? Because they
[21:18] know they have these very loose ties and
[21:21] loose ties actually make us more
[21:22] productive and so we are looking for
[21:24] frictionless communication and that
[21:26] happens at level one. In fact, work
[21:28] conversations should be really ideal
[21:30] level ones.
[21:31] >> Is this in part also the fastest way to
[21:34] get to connection?
[21:36] >> Yes.
[21:36] >> Because these CEOs or founders or you
[21:38] know busy people generally are very time
[21:39] poor
[21:40] >> for sure. So they don't have, you know,
[21:41] 30 minutes to move their way to
[21:43] connection. But are you saying that
[21:45] >> this is these are shortcuts. Okay.
[21:46] >> Right. So like what's it's way worse for
[21:48] a co to be like, shoot, I've been told I
[21:50] better be warmer.
[21:51] >> I have a lot of like most of my students
[21:53] are brilliant, very talented, very
[21:55] smart, but a little awkward and want to
[21:57] get it done, right? They're much more
[21:58] focused on the confidence and the
[21:59] warmth. So they try to do warmth because
[22:01] they they feel like they should.
[22:03] >> And they're like, "How are those kids?"
[22:06] And then it's like a social script.
[22:07] Good. Or how are you? Good, busy, busy,
[22:11] but good. And they're like, "It's not
[22:12] working. It was anti-productive." No,
[22:15] I'd rather you skip ahead. Make this
[22:17] level quick and good. Right? So, like
[22:19] the team intervention that I encourage
[22:21] every virtual or inerson team to do is
[22:24] once a week at the start of a meeting,
[22:25] start with tell me something good. Very,
[22:27] very quickly, everyone goes around very
[22:29] quickly and they share one win or
[22:30] something good. It can be small, it can
[22:32] be big. That can take less than 3
[22:34] minutes, less than 5 minutes, depending
[22:35] how big your team is. We do it on our
[22:37] Tuesday team calls at my team. What it
[22:39] does is you've just created a safe, very
[22:41] contained space for good level one. It's
[22:44] only good. So otherwise, otherwise
[22:46] people will accidentally complain,
[22:47] right? They'll be like, "Oh, the weather
[22:49] traffic, right?" But you're you're
[22:51] putting a frame around it that's good.
[22:52] You're time boxing it, right? Everyone
[22:54] goes around really quickly, but you're
[22:55] very quickly creating these these team
[22:57] connections. So creating time in your
[23:00] meetings, but also um in your culture to
[23:03] ask slightly better questions. All of
[23:05] these level one things have one thing in
[23:07] common which is they provoke a positive
[23:09] search and response.
[23:11] >> Yes.
[23:11] >> So that's really the crux of level one.
[23:13] It just a question that's producing a
[23:14] positive
[23:16] >> it's not always positive.
[23:19] I do believe in toxic positivity and
[23:21] toxic positivity can kill a
[23:22] conversational vibe very quickly. What
[23:24] we're actually looking for is emotion
[23:26] and story.
[23:28] >> Okay.
[23:28] >> Right. So I might say and by the way the
[23:30] the my introverts I love my introverts.
[23:32] They they always say, "Well, what if
[23:33] someone says they don't?" That you ask
[23:36] them, "What's your personal passion
[23:37] project?" And they say, "I don't have
[23:39] one." Well, great. What an opportunity.
[23:43] If someone doesn't have a personal pass
[23:44] project or they're going through a hard
[23:46] time, they're having a bad day, you have
[23:47] an opportunity to connect even better.
[23:50] So, sometimes, it doesn't have to be
[23:51] positive. You're looking for any kind of
[23:53] real emotion. So, then someone says,
[23:55] "You know what?
[23:57] I've been really going through a hard
[23:58] time and you know I don't haven't had
[24:00] much energy to work on personal passion
[24:01] these days and then you have the choice
[24:04] you can say wow is there anything I can
[24:05] do to help or you can say do you want to
[24:07] talk about it so it's not always
[24:09] positive it's looking for authentic
[24:12] emotions and ideally story and this is
[24:14] another uh one of the other master
[24:16] conversationalists I study who is
[24:17] excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld
[24:20] so Jerry Seinfeld has a little
[24:22] conversational trick and I this is in
[24:24] level one of the book which is he often
[24:27] meets people after his event and they're
[24:29] so starruck by him that they don't know
[24:30] what to say and conversation is really
[24:32] awkward. He has a little awkward to meet
[24:33] he's developed a trick and this works
[24:35] really well for CEOs and introverts
[24:37] which is ask a numbersbased question.
[24:41] So instead of how are you you know where
[24:44] do you live? So how long have you two
[24:46] been together and then if it's 38 years
[24:49] you say oh what's been the highlight of
[24:50] your 38 years? If it's really short oh
[24:53] you're in the honeymoon phase. That's
[24:54] the best part. So, it's a numbers
[24:57] question and this works really well for
[24:58] introverts as well is because it's
[25:00] fact-based. So, it's like an opener and
[25:02] then usually from there it's a jumping
[25:04] off point to a story. So, it's not that
[25:06] level one should always be positive.
[25:07] That's great if it can be, but
[25:10] practically speaking it actually more is
[25:12] that there's a small p a small emotion
[25:13] or a small story.
[25:15] >> Okay. So the other day I was in Las
[25:16] Vegas and I was doing this sort of like
[25:18] step and repeat meet and greet thing
[25:19] with after the event and people come up
[25:22] and they're kind of ushering them
[25:24] through very quickly. So I always want
[25:26] to you know say something to learn a
[25:28] little bit about a person in that time.
[25:29] >> What would you recommend? And this might
[25:31] be applicable for networking generally
[25:32] but what would you recommend?
[25:34] >> Okay. So I always whenever after
[25:35] speaking about books I say what was your
[25:36] favorite part or what did you learn the
[25:38] most?
[25:39] >> So I immediately ask a question that I
[25:41] want them to take home with them and
[25:42] that's actually level two which we can
[25:43] we can skip. We're not going to skip too
[25:45] far ahead, but what have you always
[25:47] wanted to learn or what are you learning
[25:48] is actually going to level two. So you
[25:50] can ask it, especially if someone's just
[25:52] spent an hour listening to you.
[25:53] >> Well, what's the difference between
[25:54] level one and level two?
[25:55] >> Oh, sorry. Yes, we skipped ahead. Okay,
[25:56] so this we'll put a pin in this. One of
[25:58] the thing I want to say about that
[25:59] question is um I I read this framework.
[26:03] I read about Dan McAdam's framework and
[26:05] I was doing this conversation research
[26:06] and then I got got invited to a party,
[26:10] one of the weirdest parties I've ever
[26:11] been invited to. And I get in and they
[26:15] tell me to take off my shoes so I'm
[26:16] committed, right? I can't leave. Yeah.
[26:18] And then they go, "Guess what? We have a
[26:20] rule for this party." I'm like, "What?"
[26:23] They're like, "You cannot talk about
[26:25] what you do." Now, this was a party of I
[26:28] think very other successful people. And
[26:30] all of us are like, "What?" Cuz I don't
[26:32] know about you, but I'm I'm pretty
[26:34] defined by by what I do. I talk about
[26:36] it. I love it. So, I start to panic
[26:38] because I'm like, "What do you even talk
[26:40] about if you don't talk about that?"
[26:41] because so many of our conversations
[26:43] veer into work and so I had to one my
[26:46] brain was flipped off autopilot
[26:48] immediately and I had to get more
[26:50] creative with my questions and I had to
[26:52] also think that I want I was like I'm
[26:54] just going to discover things them I'm
[26:56] going to try to figure out what they do
[26:57] by not asking and that was an aha moment
[27:00] of we should treat level one these these
[27:02] three bottom questions as a treasure
[27:04] hunt that if you're going into it
[27:07] looking for some kind of conversational
[27:09] gold your questions have much different
[27:11] int attention and especially what I
[27:13] ended up asking was what do you talk
[27:15] about when you don't talk about work
[27:18] which was sort of this freedom it gave
[27:21] us this freedom in conversation where I
[27:24] want to give everyone permission that
[27:26] really good conversation does not have
[27:27] to stick to the same old boring topics
[27:29] it does not have to be what you do it
[27:31] can be about anything that is engaging
[27:33] you or exciting you in that moment that
[27:35] is level one level two so we have
[27:38] general traits we must start there. We
[27:41] cannot skip too quickly to level two.
[27:43] Level two is called personal concerns.
[27:46] Personal concerns is where we begin to
[27:48] connect deeply. This is our motivations,
[27:51] our goals, our values, our worries.
[27:54] >> And I'm assuming you do level two once
[27:56] you've got past level one connection.
[27:58] >> Exactly.
[27:59] >> So, this is us going deeper with the
[28:00] person.
[28:01] >> Exactly. Or or leveling up as you wish.
[28:03] Right. As you wish. So, the mistake
[28:05] traps people make is they skip level
[28:07] one. They try to go too deep too quickly
[28:08] and people feel like it's invasive.
[28:10] Right? Especially when you're like,
[28:11] "Whoa, slow down." Or it can feel like
[28:13] an interrogation. So, we must know those
[28:15] basics first, as long as we do them
[28:16] better. Like, we don't do them in
[28:17] autopilot way. Level two is when you
[28:19] start to understand what motivates
[28:20] someone. The kind of mental trick that I
[28:23] use is, you know, you're on level two
[28:25] with someone if you know what gets them
[28:27] up in the morning, like what goal is
[28:29] driving them all day, but you also know
[28:30] what keeps them up at night,
[28:32] >> what worries [clears throat] them. I,
[28:34] you know, I I encourage people as
[28:35] they're reading like think of the five
[28:37] people you interact with most and place
[28:39] them on a level. Like, do you only know
[28:41] the basic facts about them? Are you all
[28:43] the way at level three, which we're
[28:44] going to get to? It's sometimes helpful.
[28:46] You'll notice patterns. Like, I don't
[28:48] know about you, but I love level two.
[28:50] Like, I want to get through level one as
[28:51] quickly as possible. I I want to get to
[28:53] your motivations. I want to get to your
[28:55] secret side hustle. I want to get to
[28:56] your dreams and passions. I want to know
[28:57] what keeps you up at night, but I can
[28:59] sometimes jump too fast. Mhm.
[29:01] >> Level two is about making someone feel
[29:03] heard and understood.
[29:05] And this is different than discovering
[29:07] treasure. And the biggest skill that we
[29:09] can do in level two is what I call dream
[29:11] building.
[29:13] So dream building is everyone has like a
[29:16] secret desire, a secret dream, a secret
[29:19] side hustle, a secret passion. Can you
[29:21] be there and help them uncover it?
[29:23] That's the goal of level two.
[29:25] >> So give me an example of dream building.
[29:28] >> Okay. So before we started, I said to
[29:30] you, I have I have a new goal, right?
[29:32] Like I'm I'm pitching a TV show. That's
[29:34] like my secret side hustle. That's level
[29:36] two for me. It's something that I've
[29:37] been working on secretly and quietly.
[29:38] And if we were at lunch, we would have I
[29:40] would have told you all about it. We
[29:41] double clicked on it. So like that's an
[29:42] example of one. Another example to think
[29:45] about is what does someone daydream
[29:47] about, right? Like what is what is
[29:48] occupying their mind in a good way? The
[29:51] other way that I a framework that I give
[29:53] for folks uh is a pet or pest project.
[29:57] So, what is someone's pet project? Like
[29:59] a pet at home, you kind of think about
[30:01] it, you dream about it, you hope about
[30:03] it. Like, what is someone hoping to
[30:04] achieve or find or do? And what is their
[30:07] pest project? Like, a pest in the attic.
[30:09] It worries you. You wonder like, how can
[30:12] I get rid of that pest? How can I um
[30:15] eradicate it? And they want help with
[30:17] it, but they're too afraid to ask. Pest
[30:19] projects have a lot of shame.
[30:21] On level two, people have to feel safe
[30:23] enough to expose what they feel shame
[30:25] about. But pet projects, the things they
[30:28] love, have a lot of pride. And so you're
[30:30] trying to figure out in conversation,
[30:32] could you let someone feel safe enough
[30:34] to share either one?
[30:35] >> And are there questions that evoke dream
[30:38] building?
[30:38] >> Yes. Okay. So what have you always
[30:40] wanted to learn is an interesting
[30:41] question because it it triggers growth
[30:43] mindset, right? So growth mindset is
[30:46] when someone believes they can change
[30:48] themselves, change who they are, change
[30:50] their trajectory, learn something new.
[30:52] So we we like this question because
[30:54] you're asking, "Are you willing to grow
[30:56] with me? What have you always wanted to
[30:57] learn?" The other easy one is, "What is
[31:00] your biggest goal right now?" So what is
[31:02] your biggest goal right now is a great
[31:03] question, and you can also time anchor
[31:05] it. Anytime someone has a birthday, you
[31:07] can ask, "What's your big goal this
[31:09] year?" That's actually a level two
[31:11] question, right? you're like like
[31:12] leveling them up in a safe way because
[31:14] they're talking about their birthday any
[31:15] around New Year's January and December.
[31:17] I ask everyone I know what's your
[31:18] biggest goal right now, new quarter, new
[31:21] performance review. When we talk about
[31:23] goals, it activates a part of our brain
[31:25] that triggers dopamine. When we think
[31:27] about our future self, it activates a
[31:30] part of ourselves that wants to get
[31:31] motivated. And so level two is also
[31:33] giving someone motivation that in
[31:35] conversation, they're actually
[31:37] discovering an aspect of themselves.
[31:38] They're tapping into their own resource
[31:40] for motivation.
[31:41] >> It gives them permission to dream a
[31:43] little bit and to
[31:44] >> Yeah. And you're giving them the
[31:46] motivation that they already have, but
[31:47] you're bringing it into the
[31:48] conversation. I think recently we are so
[31:52] into intrapersonal. Like a lot of what
[31:56] you see on social media right now is
[31:57] mindset and mantra and affirmation and
[32:01] productivity. And I love all of those
[32:03] things. But that means that people are
[32:06] actually using all that excitement alone
[32:08] when they're journaling or when they're
[32:10] meditating or when they're working on
[32:12] their to-do list. We have forgotten,
[32:14] I've noticed, to bring those goals into
[32:16] conversation. We're almost like
[32:18] embarrassed. I don't know if you've
[32:19] noticed this, but I've it's almost like
[32:20] people are like embarrassed to talk
[32:21] about their secret side hustle or
[32:23] they're embarrassed to talk about their
[32:24] secret passion. If we give someone
[32:27] permission to bring in what they have
[32:29] been motivated about privately into
[32:31] conversation, they get you get to be an
[32:32] ally. with a dead end when you ask these
[32:35] kind of level two questions.
[32:36] >> Well, then you get to answer
[32:38] >> because some people haven't quite
[32:39] figured out what their biggest goal is.
[32:41] >> Absolutely. Especially also sometimes um
[32:43] introverts in conversation and I've
[32:45] asked these questions to thousands of
[32:46] people and all different kinds of things
[32:47] happen when I do that. Introverts also
[32:50] need more time to process. So you might
[32:53] ask them, you know, what are you
[32:54] learning right now or what's your
[32:55] biggest goal? And they might in the
[32:57] moment not know. They just need a little
[32:58] bit of time to process. And so two
[33:01] things can happen is if they don't have
[33:03] it yet, that's okay. You also have
[33:05] opportunity to share.
[33:06] >> But what if I, you know, I ask, I'm
[33:08] thinking because, you know, I know a lot
[33:09] of uh taxi drivers listen to this
[33:11] podcast cuz I get in taxis and we talk
[33:12] about it. [clears throat]
[33:13] >> Taxi drivers, you know, they're
[33:15] conversationalists, often very good
[33:17] ones. Um, but sometimes I guess a taxi
[33:19] driver might be faced with the scenario
[33:21] where the person in the back seat
[33:22] doesn't want to talk and they might hit
[33:24] them with one of these, you know, level
[33:25] ones and then the level twos and and
[33:27] they're just getting brick walls.
[33:29] >> Then I would respect that, right? If
[33:30] someone doesn't want to talk to you,
[33:32] >> do you just back out?
[33:33] >> Yeah.
[33:33] >> Okay.
[33:34] >> Because then they're going through their
[33:36] own thing, right? Like if if
[33:39] you have to have also courage to be
[33:40] disliked,
[33:42] [clears throat]
[33:42] >> right? Like you can try your best in
[33:45] conversation. You can bring the best
[33:46] questions, but if someone is not your
[33:48] person or they are not ready to connect,
[33:51] why would you waste your energy on that?
[33:53] So, I also think that asking some of
[33:55] these are like bids. It's like a bid to
[33:56] see like, can we can we do this? You
[33:58] want to banter with me? Should we have
[33:59] level one? Should we even dip into level
[34:01] two? Great. If not, cool. They're not
[34:02] your person. It's not their day.
[34:04] >> So, if they don't take the bait,
[34:05] >> it's okay.
[34:06] >> Okay.
[34:07] >> I The taxi drivers usually ask me, um,
[34:09] got anything exciting today?
[34:11] >> Are we going anywhere exciting? Great.
[34:12] That's a great swap for level one. I
[34:14] should say by the way these questions
[34:16] are suggestions. If you can modify them
[34:20] to the to fit what you are doing even
[34:22] better. Like for example, you and I are
[34:24] in book signings or we we are meeting
[34:25] after speaking events. It makes sense
[34:27] for us to modify the learning or goal
[34:29] question to say hey you know what did
[34:31] you learn or did you learn anything new
[34:34] or what was your favorite part? Right?
[34:35] We're modifying that for us. A taxi
[34:36] driver is going to modify it for are we
[34:38] heading anywhere exciting
[34:40] doing anything exciting today? So like
[34:42] these are not prescriptions right? They
[34:44] are guidelines to try to
[34:47] make the research applicable. You know,
[34:49] I've spent most of my career looking at
[34:51] research, reading academic studies, and
[34:53] some of them are 30 pages of jargon with
[34:55] one nugget. And Dan McAdams research is
[34:58] so incredible, but when I first read it,
[35:00] I did not know how to use it. I was
[35:01] like, general traits, personal concerns,
[35:03] like level one. I wasn't sure. So, a lot
[35:05] of these are just ways to activate the
[35:07] behavioral research, the guideline
[35:09] that's driving all of our interactions,
[35:10] but you get to have flexibility with it
[35:12] as it works for you. The goal in level
[35:14] one, treasure hunt. Put someone at ease.
[35:18] Ask them about what they love. Harvest
[35:19] story. The goal of level two is to give
[35:23] someone permission to share a dream, a
[35:25] secret desire, or a secret worry. And
[35:28] level three we get to get to in a little
[35:29] bit when you're ready. Oh, we have one
[35:30] more level. Level three. Hold on. Level
[35:32] two question
[35:32] >> on these questions. Do you have to
[35:34] actually care about the answer? Do you
[35:36] have to authentically care about what
[35:39] their biggest goal is right now or what
[35:40] their personal passion project is? Does
[35:43] it matter if you don't actually care?
[35:45] >> There have been times in conversation
[35:47] where I'm not sure if I care yet.
[35:50] So, I would say you don't care yet. What
[35:54] if you ask the question and you're not
[35:56] sure, you're not bought in yet, but then
[35:57] you hear an answer that deeply resonates
[35:59] with you or you deeply care about. I
[36:02] think we don't know always if we're
[36:04] going to care about someone cuz we've
[36:05] just met them. But maybe you will,
[36:08] right? Like, you never know who's going
[36:09] to be your next best friend, right? You
[36:11] never know when when you're going to
[36:12] hear an aha moment that's going to
[36:13] change your business. Like so many of
[36:15] the pivot points in my business have
[36:16] been from random conversations where I
[36:18] happen to ask the right question and
[36:20] someone gives me a brilliant piece of
[36:21] advice.
[36:22] >> So is it okay to pretend to care?
[36:25] >> If you're asking the question, you care
[36:26] enough to try.
[36:29] Right? If you're listening to this
[36:30] podcast, you already care enough to be
[36:33] like,
[36:35] I know I should
[36:36] >> Yeah.
[36:36] >> I know I should be a a master
[36:38] conversationalist. Like so many leaders
[36:40] who I work with, they might not feel
[36:42] warm, but they know they need to be
[36:43] warm. I think that's intent enough,
[36:46] right? We just got to find the ones that
[36:47] work for you.
[36:48] >> And you talked a second ago about these
[36:50] questions that lead to dead ends, which
[36:51] are like,
[36:52] >> "What do you do? What are the other
[36:55] examples you gave?"
[36:56] >> Okay. I have a a question that I I hate
[36:58] a lot. I hate it a lot. I want it to
[37:00] leave our vocabulary. It's the worst
[37:03] question in history of conversation. It
[37:05] is been busy.
[37:06] >> Okay. Yeah.
[37:08] >> Right. like
[37:08] >> been busy. What do you do when you're on
[37:11] the receiving end of those kinds of
[37:12] questions?
[37:13] >> Yes.
[37:14] >> What What how do I counter that? Cuz I'm
[37:16] going to get that everywhere forever.
[37:17] So, how do I counter that?
[37:19] >> Okay. So, every time, first of all,
[37:20] boring questions make you boring. We
[37:21] know this.
[37:22] >> But boring questions asked of you are an
[37:25] opportunity. In fact, I think you can
[37:27] really surprise and delight someone by
[37:29] breaking the script on their boring
[37:31] question. You are going to be asked a
[37:33] lot of boring questions. Let's talk
[37:34] about two buckets here. The first bucket
[37:37] is when you're asked what do you do and
[37:40] you're going to be asked a lot. You
[37:42] better have a great answer. I think
[37:44] having a great answer to what do you do
[37:47] is creating opportunities for yourself.
[37:49] What most people make the mistake of
[37:50] with what do you do and I have an entire
[37:52] chapter about it in the book is when
[37:54] you're asked what do you do, they're
[37:55] looking for something, right? They're
[37:57] trying to understand who you are. Maybe
[37:58] they're even asking what are you worth?
[38:00] >> Mhm.
[38:01] >> Maybe. So now the ball's in your court
[38:04] to break the script and to surprise
[38:05] them. You want to give an answer that
[38:08] explains exactly what you do, but then
[38:09] gives them a little bit of a hook
[38:11] >> as in like creates that curiosity gap,
[38:13] >> a little bit of a little bit of
[38:14] information gap, a little bit of
[38:15] curiosity. And we don't want to over
[38:18] complicate or be vague. So for example,
[38:21] I was sitting in a coffee shop. I was
[38:23] researching this book and I was
[38:24] eavesdropping on everyone's
[38:25] conversations because that's the best
[38:26] way. You know, if you listen to
[38:27] Conversations of the Wild, oh, the
[38:29] things you hear are great. And I was on
[38:30] my computer and I heard um she said so
[38:32] what do you do? I think they were on
[38:33] like a date and he goes oh I'm I'm have
[38:36] a system I have a system for maximizing
[38:38] achievement in young learners.
[38:41] And she was like what? And he goes yeah
[38:44] I you know I work with fifth grade
[38:45] students and I have a system for how
[38:46] they can learn math and reading. And she
[38:48] goes oh you're a teacher. He goes yeah
[38:51] I'm a fifth grade teacher. And I was
[38:53] like wow. The intention there was to be
[38:55] interesting right? He didn't want to
[38:56] say, "I'm just a fifth grade teacher."
[38:58] But he gave the brain too many calories,
[39:01] like conversation calories. The conver
[39:04] the brain wants the simplest, easiest
[39:06] road possible. If we want to put people
[39:08] at ease, what doesn't put people at ease
[39:09] is having acting like you're reading
[39:11] your resume.
[39:12] >> Mhm.
[39:12] >> If [clears throat] you're what answer to
[39:13] what do you do? Sounds like you're
[39:15] reading your resume. You are turning
[39:16] people off, right? It's either
[39:18] jargonfilled or it feels too formal or
[39:21] too complex.
[39:22] >> So that answer that he gave was vague.
[39:25] It was um
[39:26] >> complex
[39:26] >> complex
[39:28] >> and it wasn't the social also didn't
[39:30] didn't give me a late right like the
[39:32] social hierarchy of facts. I have to
[39:34] know what you do before I can know your
[39:36] how.
[39:37] >> So what should he have said?
[39:38] >> Okay, what he should have said is not
[39:40] the how but the what. I love why but I
[39:43] think that that needs to come second.
[39:45] What he should have said is I'm a fifth
[39:46] grade teacher and I've been working for
[39:48] the last 10 years. I developed this
[39:50] really unique system that speeds up
[39:52] reading.
[39:53] Now we're talking because my brain went,
[39:55] "Got it. Check." Fifth grade teacher.
[39:57] Got it. Then I got to hear the how. Wow.
[39:59] 10 years. That answered another question
[40:00] that we always have. How long have you
[40:01] been doing that? Right? You're trying to
[40:03] skip ahead. And then it added this hook
[40:05] of I figured out how to get students to
[40:07] read faster. So when you think of what
[40:09] to do, I have a little formula if you're
[40:10] willing to play around with it. And
[40:11] again, a formula, always take it
[40:12] loosely, make it fit.
[40:14] >> I do blank
[40:17] for who by how.
[40:21] that is doing some it's like a gift to
[40:23] the other person. You're giving them a
[40:25] very clear label of what you do so they
[40:27] can put you in a box. And I hate I hate
[40:29] being put in a box, but unfortunately
[40:30] our brains need it. Especially if it's
[40:32] very easy to understand by who? Because
[40:34] people always want, can you help me? Can
[40:36] you help my friend? Is it for my sister?
[40:38] And then if it fits your how.
[40:40] >> A lot of people listening now are more
[40:42] multihyenated than ever before.
[40:44] >> Love a multi.
[40:45] >> They do a this, a that, a violin, a
[40:46] creator, a LinkedIn thing, a speech, a
[40:48] dance, an improv.
[40:50] >> So how do those people answer when
[40:51] they're multihyphenators?
[40:52] >> Oh, I love it. Okay. So, two things. A
[40:55] multih high. We We understand complexity
[40:57] as humans. We get it. So, you can say,
[40:59] you know, I daylight as a fifth grade
[41:01] teacher, but I moonlight as a
[41:03] cinematographer, right? You can
[41:05] literally say you're hyphen. If you're
[41:07] in a career pivot, we have a lot of
[41:08] students who come to us who are mid-
[41:10] pivot. We love a hero story, right? So,
[41:13] you can say, you know, I've been working
[41:14] in marketing for the last 20 years, but
[41:16] I'm thinking about going back to school
[41:17] for psychology, right? Like we think
[41:20] that people can't handle it, but
[41:22] conversation can handle a lot and it
[41:23] doesn't take a long time. Now, I do want
[41:26] to make a note here, the mechanics of
[41:28] conversation. So, there's two aspects of
[41:30] conversation. There's the art, right?
[41:32] Like weaving in excitement and
[41:34] harvesting story, and I love that, but
[41:36] there's also the mechanics. So, let's
[41:38] talk about that first. So, uh the Cander
[41:40] Corpus is a huge research study on the
[41:43] mechanics of conversation. So, how long
[41:44] do you think a typical turn should take
[41:46] in conversation? Like how long should
[41:48] our turns take?
[41:50] >> 15 seconds.
[41:51] >> Wonderful. 15 to 30 seconds.
[41:53] >> Okay.
[41:53] >> So, in um average conversation, we like
[41:55] 15 to 30 seconds. 45 seconds is okay,
[41:58] but we start to turn to a monologue.
[42:00] >> By this, you mean how long we speak for
[42:03] each each
[42:03] >> before I let you speak.
[42:05] >> Yes. Before we start to feel like I'm
[42:06] talking too much, it's not my turn. So,
[42:08] 15 to 30. And by the way, if you want to
[42:09] go listen to previous Zoom
[42:11] conversations, it can be helpful to know
[42:12] if you're an overt talker or an
[42:13] undertalker. Right. under 15 seconds you
[42:16] might be actually creating
[42:16] conversational scarcity like not asking
[42:18] like not asking enough not talking to
[42:20] talking enough
[42:21] >> which one's worse do you find
[42:24] >> well I'm an overt talker so I'm going to
[42:26] say undertalking
[42:27] >> cuz I'm an overt talker so I'm going to
[42:29] say it's worse [laughter] I'm going to
[42:30] say it's worth talking by the way can I
[42:32] take a hit at podcast for just a second
[42:34] >> sure
[42:34] >> so the other reason I wrote this book is
[42:37] I think the art of conversation is being
[42:40] systematically stripped away piece by
[42:42] piece and it's well-intentioned
[42:44] This is not a natural conversation,
[42:47] right? Like I'm in an interview. I would
[42:49] never normally take this long on turns
[42:51] if we were having dinner. You're reading
[42:52] notes. I'm I have notes. But more and
[42:55] more of our
[42:56] off time is listening to podcast
[42:58] conversations, but those are not real
[42:59] conversations. Those are interviews. So
[43:01] one is we are hearing conversations that
[43:04] are not real. They are a bit
[43:06] performative, right? And they're not
[43:09] following the mechanics of conversation.
[43:10] That is affecting our conversational
[43:12] muscle in our brain. Second is we're
[43:14] having more and more asynchronous
[43:16] conversations. I now more than ever am
[43:18] sending 9minute voice notes to my
[43:20] friends.
[43:20] >> Damn. Wow.
[43:23] >> Right. They send them back to me. What a
[43:25] voice note is is not a conversation. A
[43:27] voice note is a monologue. And when
[43:29] you're giving a voice note, I don't get
[43:31] the, "Oh, it's my turn. Me too. How dare
[43:35] you. I don't like that. I don't agree."
[43:37] Like, there's no back and forth. In
[43:39] fact, it's the most selfish form of
[43:41] conversation. And this is from someone
[43:42] who sends a lot of voice notes because I
[43:44] don't get I don't need to hear your
[43:45] opinion. I get to go as long as I want.
[43:48] I don't have to worry about whatever
[43:49] you're doing. And I'm usually
[43:51] multitasking, right? I'm listening to my
[43:53] best friend's voice note while I'm
[43:54] cleaning or cooking or exercising. So
[43:57] that has skewed it because we then get
[43:59] into real conversation and it feels hard
[44:02] because our muscle has been atrophying
[44:04] with this asynchronous. And then we are
[44:06] also conversing less. You know, only
[44:10] three in 10 Americans socialize on a
[44:11] day-to-day basis. Only three in 10
[44:13] Americans socialize on a daily basis.
[44:15] Meaning they're having more time alone
[44:17] and they are conversing less. And that
[44:19] is because we're able to do so much work
[44:21] asynchronously. We also spend so much
[44:23] time on our on our self-care, our
[44:25] longevity, our workouts that we are just
[44:27] doing less with other people. And one in
[44:29] six people worldwide are affected by
[44:31] loneliness. And I think that is because
[44:34] we are having less conversation. And if
[44:36] we're having it, it's happening
[44:37] asynchronously or and this is the last
[44:39] hardest point is we are now talking to
[44:43] technology more than talking to each
[44:45] other. And I don't just mean through
[44:47] technology. Yes, we've been talking
[44:49] through technology for a long time, but
[44:52] only recently are we talking to
[44:54] technology. And when I talk to my
[44:56] technology, it sounds different than
[44:58] when I talk to you. Like I was sitting
[44:59] next to my husband and he was working
[45:01] and he was like talking to his AI and he
[45:03] was like, "Do better. do that's terrible
[45:06] work. Do better. And then I asked him a
[45:08] question. He turned to me and I was
[45:09] like, "You better not tell me to do
[45:10] better." You know, and that is because
[45:12] I, you know, we're talking technology in
[45:14] a way that we would never talk to other
[45:16] humans, but our brain doesn't always
[45:19] know the difference. And so I think this
[45:21] muscle is atrophying. And on this point
[45:23] of like knowing whether you are a good
[45:25] conversationalist talker, um there was a
[45:27] recent study of over a thousand
[45:29] Americans and they found that 95% of
[45:31] people have worked with someone who
[45:33] talks too much. These chatty co-workers
[45:36] spend an average of 90 minutes of their
[45:37] workday just talking and 71% of
[45:39] respondents said talkative co-workers
[45:41] prevented them from getting their work
[45:43] done.
[45:43] >> Yes.
[45:44] >> How does one know if they are the person
[45:46] that talks too much? First is let's do
[45:48] an intervention on this is go back if
[45:50] you have recorded zoom calls and just
[45:52] time yourself. There is a kind of
[45:54] appropriate right 15 to 45 seconds 45
[45:56] seconds the most. Second non-verbal cues
[45:58] someone is checking out if they are
[46:00] opening their mouth
[46:03] as if to say something. That is a subtle
[46:05] cue that someone wants a turn but they
[46:09] are going to wait. So if someone is
[46:10] opening their mouth I call it like the
[46:11] open fish.
[46:13] It means they want to turn. Like you did
[46:14] it to me earlier and I totally stopped.
[46:16] >> Yeah you did. Yeah.
[46:17] >> Yeah. Cuz I was I was like, "Oh, he
[46:18] wants to say something."
[46:19] >> Yeah. No. So, I do I actually do give
[46:20] people cues that I want to say something
[46:23] >> sometimes. And some of them see them and
[46:25] some of them just do not.
[46:26] >> And I was like fully distracted. I was
[46:27] like,
[46:27] >> you you you're on this more sensitive
[46:29] end of the scale where you're almost
[46:30] watching what I'm doing. And it's and
[46:32] you know, having done what 700 of these
[46:34] interviews now, it's really fascinating
[46:35] to me that some people I have to like
[46:37] remain completely utterly ski still
[46:39] because they are surveilling me for cues
[46:41] that they're doing a good job or they
[46:43] want them. And so if I move or like look
[46:45] away, I they immediately change.
[46:47] >> Whereas other people don't even know I'm
[46:48] here, which is actually what I prefer
[46:51] >> because then I can like grace these
[46:53] notes and look in the books and I can
[46:54] like go to the toilet and come back and
[46:56] you know, it's just easier.
[46:58] >> And this is why this is not natural
[46:59] conversation.
[47:00] >> But I think people like you are better
[47:01] at conversation because you see
[47:02] conversation not as a megaphone in which
[47:04] you're shouting through. You see it as
[47:06] continual feedback. And that's why I
[47:08] have to sometimes be on edge with people
[47:09] like you cuz
[47:10] >> Yeah.
[47:10] >> I know that you're taking cues from me,
[47:12] >> right? And also like I'm looking for
[47:13] your eyebrow raises.
[47:14] >> Yeah.
[47:15] >> Right. Like one is Neil Degrass Tyson
[47:17] says that every book is every eyebrow
[47:20] raising thing he's ever said because
[47:21] he'll go on airplanes. He'll just talk
[47:23] to people and when they go that he
[47:25] writes it down.
[47:26] >> And so I'm doing the same thing for you
[47:28] is I'm looking at your eyebrows very
[47:29] closely. Don't ever get Botox. It'll
[47:31] [laughter] be so hard to read you. And
[47:33] so if you raise your eyebrows, I want to
[47:35] double click on it. Right? Because
[47:37] you're you're the taste maker, right? I
[47:39] know I'm I'm saying things interest me
[47:41] but might not interest you. So if you
[47:43] say something if you raise your eyebrows
[47:44] I'm going to go deeper or [snorts] give
[47:45] you an example or tell you a story and
[47:47] and this is like this is why this is not
[47:49] a normal conversation and conversation
[47:50] will go like this those moments go
[47:52] viral.
[47:53] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[47:53] >> Right. Like when you go [gasps]
[47:56] >> like those are like the replayed parts
[47:58] >> like the amputt thing
[47:59] >> right and and and unfortunately we're
[48:01] all here cuz we're trying to to reach
[48:02] people right and so if you are going and
[48:06] you raise your eyebrows and I'm going to
[48:07] double click. So, if no one is doing
[48:09] that to you, if you're in a conversation
[48:11] back and forth and there are no eyebrow
[48:12] raises and there's no ooh a wow and they
[48:15] are either looking away or having that
[48:16] open mouth, and by the way, that's also
[48:17] how I can interrupt someone. If I want
[48:19] interrupt someone politely, I'll go,
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[50:28] >> I'll be honest, Vanessa,
[50:30] >> I was thinking about um someone that I
[50:32] might consider to be in the overalking
[50:34] category.
[50:34] >> Yeah.
[50:35] >> And when they talk, I don't think they
[50:37] have any concept that there's anybody
[50:39] else in the room.
[50:40] >> Yeah.
[50:41] >> I think they they might as well have
[50:42] their eyes completely closed. That's
[50:44] kind of I was just thinking about it the
[50:46] other day when I was with this person
[50:47] and they might as well be sat there like
[50:48] this and they're just and they're going
[50:50] to finish when they feel like they've
[50:52] run out of things.
[50:53] Okay, this is there are two types of
[50:56] conversational people. There's
[50:57] entertainers and appreciators.
[51:00] >> One of the biggest questions I get is
[51:01] how do I talk to VIPs? How do I talk to
[51:03] my boss? And this is exactly this. And I
[51:06] don't know if they're a VIP or not. It
[51:07] actually doesn't matter. They are an
[51:09] entertainer. The way I discovered this
[51:11] framework is I was in the green room for
[51:13] a speaking event and a very famous
[51:15] person came in. I can tell you who it
[51:16] was later. Very, very famous.
[51:18] >> Who was it?
[51:19] >> We're going to cut this. No, we keep it
[51:21] in.
[51:24] >> He's I think he's pretty famous.
[51:26] >> Massively famous.
[51:27] >> Okay. Okay. He comes in and we have like
[51:28] a little bit downtime before he has to
[51:30] go up. And I watched person after person
[51:33] try. You know what? You know when you
[51:35] watch someone try and this is the same
[51:36] thing when someone's approaching their
[51:37] boss or a VIP and they all tried the
[51:40] same way. Either a compliment or a
[51:43] question. Oh, I love I love your stuff
[51:45] so much. I've been, you know, watching
[51:47] you since I was a kid. Oh my gosh, you
[51:49] changed my life, right? Compliment or
[51:51] question. Oh, what's what's the best
[51:52] thing you've ever done? I won't get too
[51:54] specific, you know? What's what was your
[51:55] you have any advice for me as a young
[51:56] person, right? It was either compliment
[51:58] or question. He was just not having it.
[52:02] Yeah. Yeah. Nice to meet you, right?
[52:04] Like quick selfie, just not engage. And
[52:06] I was like, wow, that's what I would
[52:08] have advised back then. Either go with a
[52:10] compliment or a question. No. Then one
[52:12] person came up. It was actually one of
[52:13] the AV guys, so he was going to mic him.
[52:16] And he said, "Can I tell you the
[52:18] funniest story?" He's like, and you
[52:21] could literally see him was like,
[52:23] "Yeah." And this guy begins to tell him
[52:26] hilarious stories about the first time
[52:27] he watched one of his movies, hilarious
[52:29] stories about him and his siblings
[52:32] playing sports and you know, he's
[52:34] laughing. The guy is laughing and then
[52:36] he starts asking him questions. And I
[52:38] realized he wants to be entertained. He
[52:41] doesn't want to entertain him. So what I
[52:44] realized was there are certain people
[52:46] who want to entertain. They speak longer
[52:48] so they're they're more at risk of
[52:50] talking too much. They want you to laugh
[52:51] at their jokes. They want to share their
[52:53] stories. Their love language in
[52:55] conversation that what gives them energy
[52:56] is other people giving them adoration or
[53:00] listen to their stories, listen to their
[53:01] ideas. They love giving advice. They're
[53:03] they talk more in conversation. The
[53:05] other type of person, and I think this
[53:06] is you, and actually this is me, even
[53:07] though it doesn't look that way on
[53:09] podcasts, we are appreciators. I talk
[53:12] all day long for my work. The last thing
[53:14] I do when I want to go to dinner is
[53:16] talk. In fact, when people ask me deep
[53:18] questions, I sometimes I'm like, "Can we
[53:20] go back to level one and can you just
[53:21] tell me everything?" Appreciators talk
[53:23] less. They love to laugh at other
[53:26] people's stories. They love to hear
[53:29] interesting, awe, weird, surprising,
[53:31] embarrassing things. They are much more
[53:34] hesitant to open up about themselves.
[53:36] Like, as long as we've been talking, we
[53:38] are not personally on level three,
[53:39] right? like we are able to hide that
[53:41] because we keep it back. It is critical
[53:43] when you're talking to bosses or VIPs to
[53:45] know which one you're talking to.
[53:48] Entertainers want questions, but
[53:50] appreciators want people to tell them
[53:52] stories, right? They don't want a lot of
[53:54] questions. So, your friend is an
[53:56] entertainer. So, you get to make the
[53:57] choice of are you going to go into their
[54:00] superpower and let them just entertain
[54:01] you and keep going and keep talking as
[54:03] much as they want, or do you want the
[54:04] ball? What if the thing they're saying
[54:06] is
[54:09] because when you hear entertainer, I I
[54:12] interpret that as you're coming up to
[54:13] someone and sharing something that is
[54:15] fun and interesting and whatever. But
[54:16] there's some people that roll up and
[54:18] they say
[54:19] >> they're boring.
[54:19] >> They talk about themselves and that's
[54:21] what they want to talk about. They want
[54:23] to, you know, could be a self-esteem
[54:25] issue. They want to convince you that
[54:26] they are whatever.
[54:28] >> Conversational narcissist.
[54:29] >> Okay. Is that a thing?
[54:30] >> Yeah. So, these are people in
[54:31] conversation and this is when the levels
[54:34] still hold. In fact, sometimes a
[54:36] conversational narcissist will take
[54:37] themselves. They'll walk themselves
[54:38] right up all three levels. They'll
[54:40] they'll answer for themselves in level
[54:41] one. They'll tell you all about their
[54:43] goals and they'll tell you the most
[54:44] deepest things that you did not want to
[54:45] know. And that's when you get like
[54:46] verbal vomit, right? Like someone just
[54:48] like they won't stop talking and they're
[54:49] just telling you things you didn't even
[54:50] want to know. You have a choice. You can
[54:53] either try to teach them that that's not
[54:56] the way that they should be in
[54:56] conversation and you can literally say,
[54:58] "Is it my turn yet?
[55:01] Do you want to hear about mine? Do you
[55:03] want to hear about my goal? Right? Like
[55:06] if this is a person you're going to
[55:07] invest in and you care for and you like,
[55:09] you have to you have to stand up for
[55:11] what you want to share.
[55:11] >> In your experience, where does that
[55:13] conversational narcissism come from?
[55:16] Like
[55:16] >> insecurity.
[55:17] >> Yeah.
[55:18] >> Right. This person's insecure. I don't
[55:19] even know them. They are insecure. And
[55:21] also I my bet is they're trying to
[55:22] impress you.
[55:24] >> My my bet is they're trying to find
[55:25] something to raise your eyebrows, but
[55:26] they don't realize that the more they
[55:28] talk, the more you're like Can I go
[55:30] home?
[55:30] >> Do you think they know that they're a
[55:32] conversational narcissist? Do you think
[55:33] they're listening right now and think,
[55:34] "Fuck, that's me or do they not have
[55:37] that level of cuz the person that I was
[55:39] I was referring to, they know they talk
[55:41] too much cuz they say it and they've had
[55:43] the feedback multiple and they literally
[55:45] will say I talk too much but then they
[55:46] can't seem to stop because it's so
[55:48] deeply ingrained in them from their
[55:50] childhood."
[55:52] >> So, I'm wondering if they, you know,
[55:53] they're listening now and they go,
[55:54] "Okay, that's me." Cuz my next question
[55:55] is like how do they fix it?
[55:57] >> Curiosity. Okay,
[55:58] >> that's an easier question. I actually
[56:00] don't think there's a hard and fast
[56:01] rule. Some conversational narcissists
[56:03] are aware of it and hate themselves for
[56:04] it.
[56:05] >> Like they literally know they're doing
[56:06] it and they're so they're like, "Why?
[56:09] Stop talking." Like they literally know
[56:11] what's happening and they're like, "Why?
[56:12] Why am I doing this?" But they can't
[56:13] stop cuz they're so scared of the
[56:15] awkward silence. And by the way, we we
[56:17] asked, you know, a couple thousand
[56:18] people, what is your greatest
[56:19] conversational fear? I thought it was
[56:21] going to be rejection or judgment. No,
[56:23] it was awkward silences
[56:26] or not knowing what to say. very
[56:28] mechanical and I thought, "Wow, 4,000
[56:30] people, their biggest conversational
[56:33] fear is not being rejected." That was
[56:35] one of the options on the multiple
[56:36] choice. It's running out of things to
[56:38] say. So, the reason they're talking too
[56:40] much is cuz they are terrified of that
[56:43] moment where they're sitting with Steven
[56:45] Bartlett and there's a silence and then
[56:48] you're like, "Bye."
[56:50] >> I like the silence. I mean, as a
[56:51] podcast, you have to come to terms with
[56:52] the fact that the guest might stop
[56:54] talking at any moment and you might not
[56:56] have anything else to say.
[56:57] >> That's why I don't have a podcast.
[56:58] [laughter] I don't have a podcast. So,
[57:00] and then the way the way that they fix
[57:01] it is curiosity, right? I I do believe
[57:03] in like assertive curiosity. Like not
[57:06] just the followup like tell me more, but
[57:08] like the what, the how, the why, the
[57:11] when. I think that those like what, how,
[57:14] why, when, that assertive curiosity of
[57:16] like let's actually dig into this dream.
[57:18] Like let's really talk about it. Wait,
[57:20] I'm confused. So, if we had a
[57:22] conversational narcissist here,
[57:24] >> Yeah.
[57:24] >> are you telling me how they would
[57:26] recover from that?
[57:27] >> They would recover from it by being
[57:29] aggressively or assertively curious
[57:30] about you.
[57:31] >> Okay. But they know they know. I feel
[57:33] like they know that. I feel like they
[57:35] know they talk too much.
[57:36] >> Okay. Then I'm going to say something
[57:37] you're not going to like it. Maybe
[57:39] you're not giving them enough to be
[57:40] curious about. What I would ask next
[57:43] time is, are you curious about me or do
[57:46] you not feel the curiosity? Because
[57:49] saying do you want to know my answer or
[57:51] is it my turn yet is a way of being like
[57:53] is there curiosity there?
[57:54] >> M
[57:55] >> I think that's really important like I
[57:56] think in relational patterns like there
[57:58] are rel conversational patterns that we
[58:00] can have. So we're talking a lot about
[58:01] newish people but how about the people
[58:03] you've known for a long time. My ch my
[58:06] goal my my deepest wish for this this
[58:08] podcast is that you will go have a
[58:10] conversational a cornerstone
[58:12] conversation with someone and ask all
[58:13] nine questions. Now, if you're in a
[58:15] conversational rut, and this can happen
[58:18] in friendships, [sighs]
[58:20] it can happen with people who are used
[58:22] to being the overt talker in the
[58:24] relationship. It can happen in marriages
[58:27] or marriages where you only talk about
[58:29] logistics.
[58:31] This is going to break the rut because
[58:33] the whole point of this is turn taking.
[58:35] So, I would be just so curious if you go
[58:38] to dinner with this person and you're
[58:39] like, "Hey, my friend Vanessa came on
[58:41] the pod and uh she gave us nine
[58:43] questions. Do you want to do them
[58:44] together? I'll go first.
[58:47] Could she do it? It's a she, right?
[58:49] >> He
[58:50] >> he could he do [laughter] it. Right.
[58:52] Could he do it? And so that this is how
[58:56] you can break that rut to see if there's
[58:57] actual curiosity there because I have I
[58:59] I always assume the best in people. I'm
[59:02] hoping that this person is very
[59:03] well-intentioned, just has deep
[59:04] insecurity.
[59:05] >> It is that it is the case.
[59:07] >> If you were to give a framework, it can
[59:09] sometimes break you out of a
[59:10] conversational rut with someone.
[59:12] >> H I remember I think it was you that
[59:14] said to me that the key to great
[59:16] conversations or interactions was being
[59:19] interested not interesting.
[59:21] >> Yeah. After Dale Carnegie. Yes. I wish I
[59:23] had created with it. So Dale Carnegie is
[59:25] sort of the the person who
[59:28] allowed me to think about being less
[59:29] selfish. I think that if you go into a
[59:32] conversation thinking all about
[59:34] yourself, how can I be impressive? How
[59:36] can I be smart and funny? And how can I
[59:38] get them to like me? That's okay. But
[59:40] it's quite selfish and it's a lot of
[59:41] pressure. It's a lot of pressure. When I
[59:44] started thinking, how can I go into
[59:45] conversation putting this person at
[59:47] ease? How can I make them feel like they
[59:50] can impress me? How can I be interested
[59:52] so to make them interesting? And by
[59:54] hopefully that has a rebound effect of
[59:56] making me interesting. That is a very
[59:59] selfless conversational generosity.
[1:00:02] One small goal for the book was to
[1:00:05] create more conversational generosity.
[1:00:07] that if you're in conversation and
[1:00:09] someone is overtalking, you can be
[1:00:11] generous enough to either say, "Hey, can
[1:00:14] I have a turn or to let them entertain
[1:00:17] you cuz they're entertainers?" or to ask
[1:00:18] even more questions.
[1:00:20] >> And you said to me last time that there
[1:00:21] was a study that found the most liked
[1:00:23] people were those that were interested
[1:00:25] in others in conversation.
[1:00:27] >> The most popular kids were the kids who
[1:00:30] had the longest list of people they
[1:00:31] liked.
[1:00:34] Meaning, if you want to be likable, you
[1:00:36] have to go around assertively and
[1:00:38] aggressively liking as many people as
[1:00:40] possible. Because if you go into
[1:00:42] conversations thinking, "How could I
[1:00:44] like you? How could I like you? How
[1:00:45] could I like you more?" It's less about
[1:00:47] you and you're asking questions that are
[1:00:49] setting them up to be likable. I wonder
[1:00:51] and I wish I could take a crack at this
[1:00:52] conversational narcissist that you know,
[1:00:55] if I were to ask more questions of them,
[1:00:57] like really set them up to entertain me,
[1:01:00] to get deep, to actually let them go to
[1:01:01] level two and maybe even level three if
[1:01:03] they want to, would they calm down?
[1:01:06] Would their insecurity feel I'm
[1:01:08] understood? I'm chosen. I'm loved. I
[1:01:13] think, and this is just you're an
[1:01:14] intimidating person, right? Like I I
[1:01:17] thank goodness have confidence, but if I
[1:01:19] was dinner with you, I think I would
[1:01:20] feel a little bit nervous, [laughter]
[1:01:21] too. Maybe not anymore, but when I first
[1:01:23] met you, for sure two years ago, my
[1:01:25] guess is that this person doesn't feel
[1:01:28] liked, doesn't feel understood by you,
[1:01:31] and doesn't feel chosen by you. And the
[1:01:33] quieter you become when you're just
[1:01:34] trying to respect them, the quieter you
[1:01:35] become, the more they don't feel those
[1:01:37] three things as they keep talking. So, I
[1:01:40] would try to ask better, deeper
[1:01:41] questions, like lean into it and see if
[1:01:44] that can get them calm enough to be
[1:01:46] like, "Oh, he chose me. He loves me."
[1:01:49] >> What's interesting is I observe with um
[1:01:53] people like that that that they step
[1:01:56] more into the conversation narcissism
[1:01:58] with certain people.
[1:02:00] >> Yes. Yes.
[1:02:01] >> So, with certain individuals. So, for
[1:02:02] example, in this case, if I was a
[1:02:06] beautiful woman,
[1:02:08] >> Uh-huh.
[1:02:08] >> Uh, this individual would would be
[1:02:11] [laughter] fullblown like word vomit,
[1:02:14] like it would fully come out,
[1:02:16] >> you know?
[1:02:17] >> Yeah.
[1:02:17] >> Or just women generally, even if it's a
[1:02:19] a platonic relationship,
[1:02:22] >> becomes even more like intent on
[1:02:24] >> wants to be understood, chosen, and
[1:02:27] loved by that beautiful woman.
[1:02:28] >> Yeah.
[1:02:28] >> Right. Like such a deep desire. And so I
[1:02:30] I wonder if you could disengage it with
[1:02:32] actually answering those three questions
[1:02:34] for them, like putting them at ease. I
[1:02:36] also think it's important to talk about
[1:02:40] an aspect of bad conversation is making
[1:02:44] the driver of the conversation feel like
[1:02:46] they're a bad driver,
[1:02:48] right? This person is driving
[1:02:49] conversation, right? Like they know
[1:02:51] they're an overtalker and they're
[1:02:52] driving and all the passengers are like,
[1:02:54] "Oh my gosh, this person's so bad." And
[1:02:56] what does the bad driver do? They get
[1:02:57] even more tense.
[1:02:58] >> Mhm.
[1:02:58] >> They get even worse at it. And so the
[1:03:00] flip side of that is how can you make
[1:03:01] them feel like a better driver? And one
[1:03:03] way that we accidentally the opposite of
[1:03:05] dream building is dream killing. So
[1:03:07] dream killing is when we shut down a
[1:03:09] dream. We make someone feel not liked,
[1:03:11] make them feel not understood. I think
[1:03:13] that very smart people have an
[1:03:15] accidental effect where they dream kill
[1:03:18] with
[1:03:19] >> logic.
[1:03:20] >> Mhm.
[1:03:20] >> Yeah.
[1:03:21] >> You know, I I call it my my lovely smart
[1:03:23] leader is I say you're fact-checking,
[1:03:25] not gut-eing.
[1:03:27] Right. If you're fact-checking all the
[1:03:28] time, if you're, you know, trying to
[1:03:30] accuracy kill, but they're not there
[1:03:32] yet, you're actually creating a a
[1:03:35] conversational scarcity that's going to
[1:03:36] make them feel like, [gasps] I have to
[1:03:38] prove myself. I have to dig in. Now, I'm
[1:03:40] going to talk you more cuz I want to
[1:03:41] convince you. And so, I think um the
[1:03:44] opposite of dream building is dream
[1:03:45] killing. And very smart people tend to
[1:03:47] dream kill by accident. And it shuts
[1:03:48] down connection completely. Like, not
[1:03:50] only will you not get to level two and
[1:03:51] not you'll you'll bounce on level one or
[1:03:52] you won't have a relationship with that
[1:03:53] person. I was just thinking about in my
[1:03:55] previous company, we interviewed
[1:03:56] somebody and they were extremely
[1:03:58] extremely intelligent and it was really
[1:04:00] obvious to me how intelligent they were
[1:04:02] like unbelievable. Their credentials
[1:04:03] unbelievable and then they went through
[1:04:04] the interview process and the interview
[1:04:06] feedback from the people that met them
[1:04:08] was like neutral or negative.
[1:04:12] >> I remember thinking, do you know what it
[1:04:13] is? This person is so obsessed with the
[1:04:16] pursuit of truth that they put being
[1:04:18] liked or being pleased or whatever to
[1:04:19] the side. They just care if what you're
[1:04:21] saying is true or not.
[1:04:22] >> That's it. And that in some respects
[1:04:25] might hold them back. It's also like why
[1:04:27] I think that this person is amazing, but
[1:04:29] getting through like an interview
[1:04:31] process, all those sort of social
[1:04:32] dynamics would would be really tough,
[1:04:34] right?
[1:04:34] >> And this takes us back to why
[1:04:35] conversation is essential. Very smart
[1:04:38] people think all about their ideas,
[1:04:40] their knowledge, the facts. But you can
[1:04:43] be the smartest person in the room, but
[1:04:45] if people don't feel connected to you,
[1:04:47] they don't believe your smarts. That
[1:04:49] comes directly from the research.
[1:04:51] Competence without warmth is likely to
[1:04:53] leave us feeling suspicious.
[1:04:55] So you could be incredibly smart, but if
[1:04:58] you cannot manage the mechanics of
[1:05:00] connective conversation, people feel
[1:05:03] suspicious. It literally triggers a part
[1:05:04] of their brain that goes, "I don't know
[1:05:06] about this person." And so the reason
[1:05:08] why level one is so critical, but we
[1:05:10] can't skip it, is what we're doing is
[1:05:11] we're trying to create ease. That's
[1:05:12] another way of saying warmth, right?
[1:05:14] We're trying to make it so someone feels
[1:05:15] like they can be understood with us. And
[1:05:16] then if they're understood, they're
[1:05:17] chosen. And if they're chosen, they're
[1:05:18] loved, right? like it's a three. And
[1:05:20] this actually brings me to the third.
[1:05:23] I'm so bad at this. Let's see. I was
[1:05:25] like that. So, I struggled with this uh
[1:05:28] what are we on? Sixth question because
[1:05:31] there by the way I started this research
[1:05:32] with over 100 questions and I was
[1:05:35] testing them. I mean I was making
[1:05:36] everyone try every different kind. I was
[1:05:38] using my students. They were trying
[1:05:40] them. I was seeing also I wanted to make
[1:05:41] sure they worked at work. They worked at
[1:05:43] home and they worked with kids, right?
[1:05:45] Right? Like you can do a lot of the and
[1:05:46] you have to alter them slightly, but I
[1:05:48] want to make sure they work across the
[1:05:49] board. And the sixth question is
[1:05:51] actually a signature question. So this
[1:05:54] is taking a step back and thinking, what
[1:05:57] do you love to talk about? What do you
[1:06:00] love to talk about in conversation? What
[1:06:01] do you love to talk about in
[1:06:02] conversation?
[1:06:04] >> When you're talking,
[1:06:05] >> what do I love to talk about?
[1:06:07] >> Yeah. Not hear about necessarily, but
[1:06:08] talk about
[1:06:09] >> Oh gosh.
[1:06:10] >> We're going to reverse engineer it. This
[1:06:11] six question is about reverse
[1:06:12] engineering your love. I like to talk
[1:06:14] about psychology,
[1:06:16] >> of people and stuff.
[1:06:17] >> Okay. Okay. So, great. Okay. So, we you
[1:06:19] would want to reverse engineer questions
[1:06:21] about how and why. If you love
[1:06:23] psychology and behavior, you're going to
[1:06:25] want to ask someone why did you make
[1:06:26] that choice? You know, what made you
[1:06:28] choose that path? You're going to want
[1:06:29] to ask more behavioral questions. Even
[1:06:31] in an interviewing perspective, let's
[1:06:32] talk about this for a second. So, I
[1:06:34] believe in behavioral interviewing. I
[1:06:36] believe in interview questions that
[1:06:37] actually let you know about someone's
[1:06:39] behavior, not just their opinions. Mhm.
[1:06:41] >> So, for example, interviewers will make
[1:06:44] the mistake of asking, "What's your
[1:06:45] greatest weakness?"
[1:06:47] It's not a good question because they're
[1:06:49] going to answer with a prepared answer.
[1:06:51] It's not going to be real. It's not
[1:06:52] going to tell you much. I would rather
[1:06:54] you ask, "What would your last manager
[1:06:57] say is your greatest weakness?"
[1:07:00] That's a very different question. First
[1:07:02] of all, it's not going to be as
[1:07:03] practiced. Maybe after now it will be,
[1:07:05] but you're asking the person to step
[1:07:07] outside themselves from a behavior
[1:07:09] perspective. When we step outside of
[1:07:10] ourselves and think about someone else's
[1:07:12] opinion, we see different things even
[1:07:14] about ourselves and likely they're going
[1:07:17] to call your previous manager.
[1:07:18] >> Mhm.
[1:07:18] >> Right. So, they can confirm that in a in
[1:07:20] a phone call. And you could even say,
[1:07:21] you know, when I call your previous
[1:07:23] manager, what would your previous
[1:07:24] manager say is your greatest weakness?
[1:07:26] You're going to get a juicy answer,
[1:07:27] right? And you can go verify it.
[1:07:29] >> Another behavioral technique, which is
[1:07:32] why I like behavior so much, is not just
[1:07:34] asking, "Tell me about a recent time
[1:07:37] that you managed a project." Right?
[1:07:38] Right? We always ask for examples in
[1:07:40] interview. That's okay, but not great
[1:07:43] cuz they're going to pick the best one.
[1:07:44] What you're better off saying is, tell
[1:07:46] me about the most recent time you
[1:07:48] managed a project. It should be in the
[1:07:50] last 3 months, 2 months, not a year or
[1:07:54] two ago. So asking for recency, asking
[1:07:56] for other people's opinions. The reason
[1:07:58] why I say this is because that would be
[1:08:00] crafting a type of answer that you want,
[1:08:04] trying to craft information about a
[1:08:05] previous experience that is real and not
[1:08:07] rehearsed. So for you, you'd be wanting
[1:08:09] to ask more behavior questions when
[1:08:11] you're at dinner, when you're here,
[1:08:12] obviously because that's what you love.
[1:08:14] Many successful people have signature
[1:08:17] questions. Like I know Amy Polar at the
[1:08:19] end of her podcast, she always asks,
[1:08:21] "What are you laughing about? What's
[1:08:22] making you laugh recently?" That's her
[1:08:24] signature question. example I use in the
[1:08:26] book is Jenny Urick has a challenge a
[1:08:29] thousand hours outside which is spending
[1:08:31] a thousand hours with her kids outside
[1:08:32] playing more outside off of screens and
[1:08:34] she asks everyone her podcast what was
[1:08:37] your favorite outdoor memory because she
[1:08:39] loves talking about outdoors and and
[1:08:41] childhood nostalgia so the sixth
[1:08:43] question is inviting what do you love to
[1:08:45] talk about how can we engineer that in
[1:08:48] your conversations by looking for
[1:08:49] opportunities to bring it up
[1:08:51] >> so at this stage I would turn to
[1:08:54] somebody when I when I feel like I've
[1:08:55] got that depth with them and I'd say
[1:08:56] what do you love to talk about and they
[1:08:58] might say do you know I really love
[1:08:59] talking about sports and then are you
[1:09:01] saying that opens a door and gives me a
[1:09:04] clue as to how to connect with them so I
[1:09:06] future conversations with them should
[1:09:07] orientate towards sports or psychology
[1:09:09] or whatever their answer was
[1:09:10] >> no it would be you can ask what do you
[1:09:12] love to talk about it would be you
[1:09:14] Steven love to talk about behavior so
[1:09:16] you are going to ask more behavioral
[1:09:18] questions of them so you get to create
[1:09:21] your sixth question
[1:09:22] >> right so like right now because I'm
[1:09:24] talking about conversation, my signature
[1:09:26] question is, "What's your favorite
[1:09:28] conversation starter?"
[1:09:29] >> Okay.
[1:09:30] >> Right. When I was researching cues, it
[1:09:32] was, "Who's the most charismatic person
[1:09:33] you know?"
[1:09:34] >> Mhm.
[1:09:35] >> When I was [clears throat] researching
[1:09:35] Captivate, it was, "What's your favorite
[1:09:37] body language cue?" Right. Or do you
[1:09:39] ever think about body language? So, it
[1:09:41] can change based on your interest, but
[1:09:42] you're creating it for yourself.
[1:09:43] >> Okay. So, this one's a bespoke one. You
[1:09:45] get to write this one yourself.
[1:09:47] >> Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
[1:09:48] >> Got you. So, I'm interested in
[1:09:49] psychology. So, this one would be
[1:09:51] psychology related topics for me,
[1:09:53] >> right? or like what drives you
[1:09:54] behavioral.
[1:09:55] >> I actually think that some of the level
[1:09:56] three questions might interest you, but
[1:09:57] I'm curious. Okay,
[1:09:58] >> let's see. All right, level three. Are
[1:10:00] you ready?
[1:10:00] >> Wait, before we do level three, just
[1:10:01] want to close off on this uh do you talk
[1:10:03] too much test?
[1:10:04] >> Okay, so
[1:10:06] I have a do you talk too much test in
[1:10:08] the book. It's right here. So, you're
[1:10:09] going to ask yourself, I leave a
[1:10:11] conversation realizing I don't know much
[1:10:13] about the other person.
[1:10:14] >> Okay,
[1:10:15] >> that's a secret curiosity question.
[1:10:18] >> So, there's five questions here. And if
[1:10:20] you answer often more than three times,
[1:10:23] you're probably an overtalker.
[1:10:24] >> That's it. And all of them secretly,
[1:10:26] Stephen, are saying, "Are you curious
[1:10:28] enough?"
[1:10:29] >> Okay?
[1:10:29] >> Right? Because we know that curiosity is
[1:10:31] the antidote. So I put this right at the
[1:10:33] end of level one because you really
[1:10:34] can't go to level two if you're talking
[1:10:36] too much.
[1:10:37] >> Okay?
[1:10:37] >> You're [clears throat] not curious
[1:10:38] enough. You're not going to learn their
[1:10:39] dream.
[1:10:39] >> So question one. So if I say yes to
[1:10:42] three of these, then I'm probably an
[1:10:44] overtalker. Correct? So first one is I
[1:10:46] leave the conversation realizing I
[1:10:48] didn't know much about the other person.
[1:10:50] I'd say rarely. After I finish speaking,
[1:10:52] people nod politely, but don't always
[1:10:54] respond.
[1:10:56] >> Sometimes.
[1:10:57] >> I love telling long detailed stories,
[1:10:59] especially when people are too polite to
[1:11:01] interrupt.
[1:11:03] >> Do you ever tell a long detailed story?
[1:11:04] >> Only when I'm on stage and I'm and
[1:11:06] someone has paid me to.
[1:11:07] >> That doesn't count. Okay.
[1:11:08] >> Doesn't count.
[1:11:09] >> Sometimes I'd say, um, I've been told
[1:11:11] gently or not so gently that I talk a
[1:11:13] lot.
[1:11:15] >> Rarely. I've never been told that.
[1:11:17] Number five, while I'm midstory, I
[1:11:19] notice people glance around the room
[1:11:21] sometimes.
[1:11:22] >> So, you pass.
[1:11:23] >> Okay.
[1:11:23] >> Now, I could have told you that also,
[1:11:25] but yeah, you pass.
[1:11:26] >> So, those it's really important because
[1:11:28] it might be creating conversational
[1:11:31] friction, right? Especially at work. And
[1:11:33] the best muscle you can do is asking
[1:11:35] more, talking less. And a challenge, a
[1:11:38] very specific challenge,
[1:11:40] >> please do a yap challenge. Do you know
[1:11:42] what a yap challenge is? Oh, a yap
[1:11:44] challenge. A yeah challenge is you open
[1:11:45] up your phone camera and you teach
[1:11:48] something or share an opinion about
[1:11:49] something without notes and you hit
[1:11:52] record. If you go naturally 15 or 30
[1:11:55] seconds, you're probably good. If you're
[1:11:57] hitting 45 seconds, that's the max. If
[1:11:59] you're up to a minute or 2 minutes, you
[1:12:00] probably talk too much.
[1:12:02] >> H about yourself or just
[1:12:04] >> about yourself about like that. That
[1:12:06] your typical answering length is longer
[1:12:08] than conversationally appropriate
[1:12:10] >> to a question about you. It a yap
[1:12:13] challenge could be share your opinion
[1:12:15] about veganism.
[1:12:17] >> Damn, I didn't think I could get that
[1:12:18] done in 15 seconds. [laughter]
[1:12:20] >> What's your answer?
[1:12:21] >> No, not to veganism. Just generally like
[1:12:23] if it's an idea, everything in my head
[1:12:24] is a story first. So, it's like,
[1:12:26] >> you know what though? Introverts can.
[1:12:28] >> Introverts absolutely can. And they'll
[1:12:30] often go too short.
[1:12:31] >> Okay.
[1:12:31] >> Like for example, I'll give I'll give
[1:12:32] you a yap challenge that I was just
[1:12:33] thinking about the other day and we're
[1:12:34] going to do it on social media. We'll do
[1:12:35] it together. Yap challenge. Someone
[1:12:39] recently asked my friend out by asking
[1:12:40] for her Instagram handle, not her
[1:12:42] number. Agree or disagree?
[1:12:46] >> It depends
[1:12:47] >> on
[1:12:49] >> her vibe. Was she what how what energy
[1:12:51] was she giving and what was the context?
[1:12:53] Was that after a 2-hour date? Was that
[1:12:54] >> just meeting her on the street?
[1:12:55] >> Rolled up on the street. I think it's
[1:12:57] actually I agree then because it's less
[1:13:00] invasive. It's like I will earn your
[1:13:03] number.
[1:13:04] >> Oh. Oh wow.
[1:13:06] >> Give me the chance to earn your number.
[1:13:07] >> Okay. You just convinced me. That's
[1:13:09] interesting. So, by the way, I think
[1:13:10] that was what 12 seconds.
[1:13:11] >> Okay. Yeah, maybe.
[1:13:12] >> Right. So, like you you're keeping it
[1:13:13] tight. I disagree. But that that is an
[1:13:16] interesting nuance.
[1:13:18] I'm not going to give you my Instagram
[1:13:19] because my Instagram is performative.
[1:13:21] Everyone's Instagram is performative. If
[1:13:23] you are looking at my Instagram, it's
[1:13:25] like saying, "I don't want to get to
[1:13:26] know you through conversation. I'm going
[1:13:27] to look through everything and know
[1:13:29] everything about you before I decide if
[1:13:30] I want to take you out." And you take
[1:13:32] the joy out of discovery. If I'm with
[1:13:35] you and I'm like, "Do you have any
[1:13:37] pets?" And you're like, "Yeah, I have a
[1:13:39] dog." Then I can, "Oh, how'd you get the
[1:13:41] dog? What's the dog's name? How'd you
[1:13:42] choose that name?" Versus, "Uh, look,
[1:13:45] she has a dog named Stewie."
[1:13:48] >> But you know, your number is reserved
[1:13:50] for people in your like personal
[1:13:51] professional life. So, what you're
[1:13:52] saying if you roll up on the street is
[1:13:54] you're saying, "Let me in to your
[1:13:56] personal and professional environment,
[1:13:58] stranger." Whereas the public
[1:14:00] environment, which is Instagram,
[1:14:02] >> is I think a much more socially
[1:14:04] appropriate place to invite oneself
[1:14:06] into.
[1:14:06] >> Okay, let's fight about this.
[1:14:07] >> Okay,
[1:14:08] >> if you do that, your conversation is
[1:14:10] going to be more awkward on your first
[1:14:11] date
[1:14:12] >> because
[1:14:12] >> because you feel like you've already
[1:14:14] learned about the person. So maybe
[1:14:16] you're discovering more of their public
[1:14:18] persona, but you've seen their kind of
[1:14:20] friends, where they hang out, what they
[1:14:22] do on the weekends, do they hike or not,
[1:14:23] do they have any pets? Oh, look, there
[1:14:24] they are at Thanksgiving. They have lots
[1:14:26] of siblings. This is, I think, why we're
[1:14:28] having awkward first date conversations,
[1:14:29] why first dates have gotten even worse,
[1:14:32] is because you're on the first date,
[1:14:34] you've already discovered all level one
[1:14:35] stuff that you think you know. So now,
[1:14:37] even though you have your very first
[1:14:39] conversation, you you kind of have to go
[1:14:40] to level two, it's so much harder and
[1:14:43] it's unnatural. It's unnatural to know
[1:14:46] all this information that wasn't
[1:14:48] transmitted human to human that was done
[1:14:50] in a performative way. And then you have
[1:14:52] to get in person and it's harder to come
[1:14:55] up with conversation starters because
[1:14:56] you already know a lot. I also think
[1:14:58] what I would say is if someone were I'm
[1:15:00] not single. I haven't been single a long
[1:15:01] time. But if someone were to say, "Can I
[1:15:02] have your Instagram?" I would say, you
[1:15:04] know, I I have one for just friends and
[1:15:06] family, but maybe you can get there one
[1:15:08] day.
[1:15:09] >> You would say that?
[1:15:09] >> Yeah, I would.
[1:15:11] >> No, I [laughter] never
[1:15:13] >> because I want you to chat me, right?
[1:15:15] Like I don't want to show you my
[1:15:17] Instagram. we're going to see everything
[1:15:18] and like I'd rather like like let's
[1:15:20] banter like let's chat are you funny?
[1:15:22] Are you going to ask me good questions?
[1:15:24] Are you going to be a conversational
[1:15:25] narcissist? And then ask me at dinner if
[1:15:27] it's going well over text or over over
[1:15:28] the phone.
[1:15:30] >> So you think less context results in
[1:15:32] better conversation? So just having
[1:15:34] their WhatsApp or their iMessage is
[1:15:36] going to result in more interesting
[1:15:37] conversations than me knowing that you
[1:15:38] like hiking and puppies and me being
[1:15:40] able to be like, "Have you got a
[1:15:41] Labradoodle, too?" Oh my god, my
[1:15:43] Labradoodle is just given birth to a
[1:15:45] couple of triplets. Yes. And less
[1:15:48] performative context. Like our social
[1:15:51] feeds are not 100% real. So it's not
[1:15:54] like you were listening to me talk about
[1:15:56] something. It's a perform it's a curated
[1:15:59] highlight reel of my life. So you feel
[1:16:01] like you know me. Like people who follow
[1:16:02] me on Instagram like they might feel
[1:16:04] like they know me, but my life is quite
[1:16:05] different than my Instagram in the sense
[1:16:06] of I show a very small piece of what I
[1:16:08] do. Same right with you, right? And so I
[1:16:11] know I'm not single, but if I was single
[1:16:13] and someone asked for my my Instagram,
[1:16:15] even as a not like public figure, I
[1:16:18] would have no casual level one banter
[1:16:21] with them that is critical, socially
[1:16:23] critical for me to understand their
[1:16:25] basics. And so when we skip level one,
[1:16:27] we do damage to our potential connection
[1:16:29] later. We create more awkwardness and
[1:16:30] more friction for ourselves. Okay?
[1:16:32] >> So my challenge for single people is
[1:16:34] stop asking for handles and ask for
[1:16:36] numbers.
[1:16:38] >> Are people going to get mad at me?
[1:16:41] Well, a lot of them are meeting via
[1:16:42] dating apps now.
[1:16:43] >> For sure. And that I think that's okay,
[1:16:44] right? You know, a dating app is much
[1:16:46] more limited than an endless feed.
[1:16:47] >> It's like I don't know how many photos
[1:16:48] are on dating apps these days, but still
[1:16:50] like that's like the most performative.
[1:16:51] It's like look at me at the gym. Look at
[1:16:53] this car that I bought. Look at
[1:16:54] >> But it's not forever. Like you can't go
[1:16:55] back to someone's Instagram since they
[1:16:56] were in high school, right? Like it's,
[1:16:58] you know, it's six images or 10 images.
[1:17:00] You have these pre-subscribed questions.
[1:17:02] Like I'm actually okay with I love
[1:17:04] dating apps. I think that actually they
[1:17:05] can really connect people very quickly.
[1:17:06] But you don't know everything about you.
[1:17:08] You don't feel like you know everything
[1:17:09] about me.
[1:17:10] >> I feel like people on dating apps hate
[1:17:11] dating apps.
[1:17:12] >> Of course. Of course. But how else are
[1:17:14] we going to meet people if we have our
[1:17:16] AirPods in all the time? You're not
[1:17:19] going to meet people if you're at the
[1:17:19] gym. We talked about this last time. If
[1:17:21] you have your AirPods in at the gym and
[1:17:22] someone wants to hit on you, you're not
[1:17:24] going to hear it. So, we have to use
[1:17:26] dating apps. I think they're the only
[1:17:27] way that we'll be able to connect. So, I
[1:17:28] I'm actually I'm pro dating app. Of
[1:17:30] course, I would love for people to
[1:17:31] approach in person, but I'm not pro not
[1:17:35] talking first. And I think if someone
[1:17:37] asks for your handle, you're fair to say
[1:17:39] it's just for my friends and family.
[1:17:40] Let's try to get there.
[1:17:41] >> Okay, I concede.
[1:17:44] >> No, I think you it makes sense. It
[1:17:45] doesn't make sense. It's hard to repeat.
[1:17:47] >> Okay, so this is a wonderful level, but
[1:17:49] it's reserved for your most important
[1:17:51] people. I think a mistake that people
[1:17:54] make is they are afraid of going too
[1:17:58] deep too quickly and they're afraid of
[1:18:00] going deep deep in conversation because
[1:18:02] it feels scary to be vulnerable.
[1:18:04] >> And are they right? They are right.
[1:18:06] >> Okay.
[1:18:07] >> If we go too deep too quickly,
[1:18:09] especially at work, and I wrote this
[1:18:10] book with work in mind, people are going
[1:18:12] to think you're weird.
[1:18:15] >> If we share too much too quickly, it's
[1:18:16] going to be weird. And there is such a
[1:18:18] thing as vulnerability regret.
[1:18:21] Vulnerability regret is you shared
[1:18:22] something too vulnerable and it wasn't a
[1:18:24] safe space or it wasn't received well.
[1:18:26] And the heartache that you get from that
[1:18:28] is soul crushing. Right? If you share
[1:18:30] something too or you ask something to
[1:18:31] deep too quickly, you're like, why did I
[1:18:32] do it's painful. Has that ever happened?
[1:18:34] Does that happen to you or No, you don't
[1:18:35] share.
[1:18:37] >> Uh, no. I I've walked away from
[1:18:38] situations and thought actually maybe
[1:18:39] that wasn't the appropriate situation to
[1:18:41] share that. But I've also been in
[1:18:42] situations. I I immediately thought of a
[1:18:45] meeting I had two weeks ago where I was
[1:18:48] interviewing someone and the first 25
[1:18:50] minutes of the interview they shared
[1:18:52] some really really personal things about
[1:18:55] their very early childhood that I um
[1:18:58] >> I almost had to adjust myself
[1:19:01] >> to you know I thought I was going into
[1:19:03] an interview
[1:19:04] >> Yeah.
[1:19:04] >> to like meet them and ask them about
[1:19:06] work stuff but I I almost felt myself
[1:19:07] pivoting away being like oh my gosh I
[1:19:09] have to be
[1:19:09] >> more of a a counselor or something.
[1:19:11] >> Yeah. And so I think that we actually
[1:19:13] have to gate level three, right? I think
[1:19:15] we actually have to gate and and it's
[1:19:16] been a little confusing culturally
[1:19:17] because I think that we are loving
[1:19:18] vulnerability and that that's really
[1:19:20] good and vulnerability and authenticity.
[1:19:22] There's a very fine line there. Like
[1:19:24] being authentic is great, but being too
[1:19:27] vulnerable too quickly is very awkward
[1:19:29] and sometimes not safe. So I really
[1:19:32] share when we talk about level three, I
[1:19:34] want you to reserve it for your most
[1:19:35] important people. Okay? So level three
[1:19:37] is called your self-narrative. Your
[1:19:39] self-narrative is the story you tell
[1:19:41] yourself about yourself. It is how you
[1:19:44] make sense of your journey and purpose
[1:19:46] in life. And the story you tell yourself
[1:19:49] about yourself is self-creating.
[1:19:52] Meaning, if you have a narrative of
[1:19:54] hardship and being unlucky, you are
[1:19:57] probably going to see more hardship and
[1:19:59] create more bad luck for yourself. And
[1:20:02] they've proven that this there's
[1:20:03] actually two types of selfnarratives.
[1:20:06] There's a contamination narrative and a
[1:20:09] redemption narrative. People with a
[1:20:11] redemption narrative, they have a frame
[1:20:14] around the facts of their life of no
[1:20:16] matter what they do, no matter what
[1:20:18] comes their way, they're going to
[1:20:19] overcome with hard work and grit and
[1:20:22] resilience, they can overcome anything.
[1:20:24] And what's interesting about this in our
[1:20:26] research is this narrative, it holds
[1:20:28] across their life. Yes, they're they're
[1:20:30] facts of their life, but their work,
[1:20:32] their love, their parenting, they repeat
[1:20:35] that same redemption narrative in
[1:20:38] everything they do. The other kind of
[1:20:40] narrative is a contamination narrative.
[1:20:43] People with a contamination narrative,
[1:20:46] they feel that all the hardship and all
[1:20:48] the challenge and the struggle has
[1:20:50] happened to them and they can't make it
[1:20:51] through. They can't overcome. That no
[1:20:53] matter how hard they've worked, their
[1:20:55] grit, their strength, their resilience,
[1:20:56] they're a victim of circumstance. they
[1:20:58] typically feel very unlucky and very out
[1:21:00] of control. And when you have that kind
[1:21:02] of narrative, it's less about the facts
[1:21:04] of your life and more about the frames
[1:21:06] of your life, how you're seeing those
[1:21:09] facts. When you have a contamination
[1:21:11] narrative or you're in a relationship
[1:21:12] with someone with a with a contamination
[1:21:13] narrative, the only way that I think we
[1:21:16] can change that, cuz our narratives are
[1:21:18] changeable. These are not fixed
[1:21:19] personality traits, is via conversation.
[1:21:22] So, my secret hope with with level three
[1:21:25] conversation is when you're in a safe
[1:21:27] relationship, when you can truly share
[1:21:28] who you are, when you feel understood,
[1:21:31] you can maybe rewrite your narrative.
[1:21:33] You can maybe flip from a contamination
[1:21:35] narrative, the frame of how you've seen
[1:21:37] your facts into redemption. And that is
[1:21:39] my secret goal here.
[1:21:42] >> So, how do we do that?
[1:21:44] >> Okay, the first thing is beginning to
[1:21:46] uncover what your narrative is and what
[1:21:48] someone else's narrative is. So the
[1:21:50] first thing we have to understand is how
[1:21:52] our brain works. Our brains are
[1:21:53] storytellers. Our that's why we love
[1:21:55] story. And level one, it was kind of a
[1:21:56] warm-up. Like when we're telling story
[1:21:58] about our passions and our side hustles,
[1:22:00] we're also telling a story about
[1:22:01] ourselves all the time.
[1:22:02] >> Mhm.
[1:22:03] >> And so we've told a story about
[1:22:04] ourselves. And there are what I call
[1:22:07] narrative hints. In conversation, people
[1:22:10] will leak the kind of narrative that
[1:22:12] they have. So they might say, "Oh,
[1:22:14] everyone always zigs and I zag. Gosh,
[1:22:17] everything bad always happens to me."
[1:22:18] Oh, of course, of course. Yet another
[1:22:20] thing. If people have superlatives,
[1:22:25] always, never, they tend to be more of a
[1:22:28] contamination person. People who are in
[1:22:30] that contamination narrative space, they
[1:22:32] tend to see things as very black and
[1:22:33] white. They tend to see things as
[1:22:35] permanent versus redemption people tend
[1:22:37] to leak positive hints and they feel
[1:22:39] very lucky. They say, "Oh, good things
[1:22:40] always happen to me." Or, "There's
[1:22:42] always a silver lining. Oh, yeah. You
[1:22:44] know, just my luck. I got it." Right?
[1:22:46] They're saying things about how it's
[1:22:48] happening. They're leaking their
[1:22:49] narratives.
[1:22:50] >> Who ends up being more successful,
[1:22:51] happy, and healthy?
[1:22:52] >> Absolutely. People with redemptive
[1:22:53] redemptive narratives. They have found
[1:22:55] that people with redemption narratives,
[1:22:57] they live longer. They have better
[1:22:59] immune systems. They have better
[1:23:00] connections. They feel happier. And that
[1:23:02] is because they feel they can handle
[1:23:03] whatever is thrown at them. They have a
[1:23:05] great internal locus of control. They
[1:23:07] feel that no matter what comes at them,
[1:23:08] they can handle it. And the good news is
[1:23:10] this is learnable, right? If we begin to
[1:23:12] talk about our narratives with our
[1:23:13] children, with our partners, we can
[1:23:15] begin to teach them actually you have
[1:23:17] growth here. You have agency over your
[1:23:19] narrative.
[1:23:19] >> This internal locus of control thing is
[1:23:22] something that I learned about when I
[1:23:23] was probably 16 or 17 in psychology
[1:23:25] class.
[1:23:25] >> Yeah.
[1:23:26] >> And what does it mean? And what what
[1:23:27] does the study say about the importance
[1:23:29] of it?
[1:23:30] >> So an internal locus of control means
[1:23:32] that you feel that you're in control.
[1:23:34] You have agency over your decisions,
[1:23:37] over what happens to you, that things
[1:23:38] can happen to you in your life, but you
[1:23:40] can decide how you interact with them.
[1:23:42] You can decide how you behave. People
[1:23:44] with an external locus of control get
[1:23:46] their worth from outside sources. They
[1:23:50] feel validated when someone else tells
[1:23:51] them they look good. They feel good when
[1:23:53] someone else tells them they're doing
[1:23:55] good. They're looking for external ways
[1:23:57] to feel better. They look more at like
[1:23:59] for example vanity metrics, their likes
[1:24:01] or their follows, how many friends they
[1:24:03] have, how often they're invited, are
[1:24:04] they getting compliments?
[1:24:06] >> I almost the analogy I was thinking of
[1:24:07] then is it's almost like you either
[1:24:09] think you're a bird or you think you're
[1:24:11] on a roller coaster.
[1:24:12] >> Tell me more.
[1:24:13] >> You know, a roller coaster has a fixed
[1:24:15] track
[1:24:16] >> really irrespective of what you do. It's
[1:24:17] going to go up, down, left, right, spin,
[1:24:20] and you're just holding on and going
[1:24:22] with it. Whereas a bird feels like it
[1:24:24] has the agency to go go anywhere. No
[1:24:27] rail. Yeah. M.
[1:24:28] >> And some people I think do think that
[1:24:31] they're on a roller coaster.
[1:24:32] >> Yeah.
[1:24:32] >> On a track.
[1:24:33] >> I mean, look, I don't want to get too
[1:24:34] deep, but if we were in a normal
[1:24:36] conversation, I would ask you about
[1:24:38] fate. You know, I think there's
[1:24:40] questions that can we begin to uncover
[1:24:43] someone's level three. Do you believe in
[1:24:45] luck? Do you believe you're lucky? Do
[1:24:47] you believe in fate? I think if you
[1:24:49] believe in fate, you're more likely to
[1:24:51] believe that you're on a roller coaster.
[1:24:52] that you're on a ride that is
[1:24:53] predetermined and now it's up and then
[1:24:55] it's going to go down and they're going
[1:24:56] to have a loop. So, I wonder I don't
[1:24:58] know if someone has a high belief in
[1:25:01] faith or predetermined fate if they
[1:25:04] would feel an external locus of control
[1:25:06] and maybe that wouldn't be as good for
[1:25:07] their mental health. I wonder
[1:25:10] >> I've done almost 700 interviews with
[1:25:12] some of the most interesting people in
[1:25:13] the world and one of the things you
[1:25:14] learn which is unexpected is that
[1:25:16] vulnerability is the doorway to
[1:25:19] connection. And after sitting here for 2
[1:25:20] three hours with a guest, I feel a deep
[1:25:23] sense of connection to them. And as they
[1:25:25] leave, what I get them to do is to write
[1:25:27] a question in the diary of a CEO. We've
[1:25:30] taken all of the questions from the
[1:25:32] diary of a CEO. We have put the question
[1:25:36] here on this card with the name of the
[1:25:38] person that wrote it. So you can sit at
[1:25:40] home as I do with my fiance and my
[1:25:42] colleagues at work and other people in
[1:25:43] my life. Whenever we get a minute, we
[1:25:45] play the diio conversation cards. And it
[1:25:48] is incredible what happens. These are
[1:25:51] great if you're in a romantic
[1:25:52] relationship and you want to connect
[1:25:53] your partner more. These are also great
[1:25:55] if you're in a team and you want to bond
[1:25:57] your team together. And I have to say
[1:25:58] they're also great for families that
[1:26:00] want to learn more about each other and
[1:26:02] that need a good excuse to spend some
[1:26:04] time in a digital world in the analog
[1:26:06] environment connecting human to human.
[1:26:09] It is remarkable what the right question
[1:26:11] at the right time can do. Go to the
[1:26:13] diary.com
[1:26:15] and you can get these conversation cards
[1:26:17] right now.
[1:26:19] >> So, going back to this idea of these
[1:26:21] contaminators.
[1:26:22] >> So, we're listening for narrative hints
[1:26:24] and we can ask questions like are you
[1:26:26] lucky? By the way, if you ask this
[1:26:28] question, it's it's a it's a sneaker
[1:26:30] because it sounds so casual when you ask
[1:26:33] are you lucky, but their answer really
[1:26:35] matters. Either there's three answers
[1:26:38] for are you lucky. One, oh yes. Yes, I
[1:26:41] feel lucky. When I asked you this last
[1:26:42] time, you said yes.
[1:26:44] >> Yeah. I think I I can't look at I feel
[1:26:46] like I have so much privilege in my life
[1:26:47] that I feel like I have I am lucky.
[1:26:49] >> Yes. Yes. I feel the same. I'm just I'm
[1:26:52] so grateful, right, that I get to have
[1:26:54] this super unique career. So I feel
[1:26:56] lucky. You feel lucky. So yes, if
[1:26:57] someone says yes right away, that tells
[1:26:59] you a lot about them.
[1:27:00] >> That means they probably have a high
[1:27:02] amount of gratitude. They probably have
[1:27:05] a high amount of control or agency. and
[1:27:07] they also have confidence because it's
[1:27:09] the [clears throat] the quickness the
[1:27:10] speed of their answer matters here then
[1:27:12] there are people who are going to go
[1:27:15] what no I I don't think I'm lucky now
[1:27:20] this is a really important thing to know
[1:27:21] about them and I I don't think you
[1:27:23] should try to change it right like I
[1:27:24] think that that's a version of toxic
[1:27:26] positivity telling someone oh but you're
[1:27:28] so lucky you know think of all the
[1:27:29] things that you should be grateful for
[1:27:31] usually that actually makes someone dig
[1:27:32] in it makes them feel very misunderstood
[1:27:35] you're the best thing you can do if
[1:27:36] someone says they don't feel lucky is to
[1:27:37] understand it. Why? What are the forces?
[1:27:41] When did that happen? Did you ever feel
[1:27:43] lucky before? Sometimes people can flip
[1:27:46] from lucky to unlucky with a very bad
[1:27:48] circumstance. And it is crucial that you
[1:27:50] understand that before you judge it. So
[1:27:53] curiosity gets engaged. If someone says
[1:27:54] they're unlucky, I think that's an
[1:27:55] opportunity to really reach out and meet
[1:27:57] someone where they're at because in that
[1:27:59] moment they might.
[1:28:00] >> Are you going to disagree with me?
[1:28:01] >> No, no, no. I was just thinking about
[1:28:03] how wonderful of a question that is for
[1:28:05] when you first meet someone in in an
[1:28:08] interview or a first date. I was like
[1:28:09] maybe I should ask people in an
[1:28:11] interview.
[1:28:12] >> Do you think you're lucky?
[1:28:13] >> You should
[1:28:14] >> cuz what what is that revealing if they
[1:28:16] say yes? It's revealing
[1:28:17] >> multitudes, right? Their gratitude,
[1:28:20] their perspective on life, their
[1:28:21] internal locus of control.
[1:28:22] >> You're an optimist
[1:28:23] >> often. Not always, but often sometimes
[1:28:24] it can be realists.
[1:28:25] >> Okay?
[1:28:26] >> Right? Like I am objectively lucky
[1:28:28] because I have all these things that can
[1:28:29] be realist. But man, you're going to
[1:28:31] learn a lot. You're the whole point of
[1:28:32] level three is predicting behavior. If
[1:28:35] you know their luck, you're going to be
[1:28:37] able to predict a lot of how they are in
[1:28:39] a relationship, how they are as a
[1:28:40] friend, how they are going to be at
[1:28:42] work,
[1:28:42] >> right? [clears throat]
[1:28:43] Fate, I think, is an interesting one to
[1:28:45] ask someone. And then there's other
[1:28:47] questions that seem silly but actually
[1:28:49] have tremendous meaning. And level three
[1:28:51] is all about meaning. Okay, so the third
[1:28:54] answer for lucky thank you is that
[1:28:57] person who is afraid to answer. And I
[1:29:00] have asked this question of thousands of
[1:29:02] people and you get this bucket of um
[1:29:05] well
[1:29:08] kind of. Now this is very interesting
[1:29:10] because this tells you they're probably
[1:29:12] not that introspective. So one of two
[1:29:15] things they actually don't know. They
[1:29:17] they literally have not ever thought
[1:29:19] about it and they will say to you I've
[1:29:21] never thought about and they're
[1:29:22] literally sitting in front of you
[1:29:23] reanalyzing their entire life trying to
[1:29:24] answer this question for you. They've
[1:29:26] never considered it. So that's also
[1:29:27] helpful. That's helpful. You know, if
[1:29:29] you're in a relationship and someone's
[1:29:30] not that introspective, that's good to
[1:29:31] know. Not good or bad, just good to
[1:29:32] know, especially if you value that. Like
[1:29:35] introspection is one of my core values.
[1:29:37] So, you know, that might might not be
[1:29:38] bode well for me. Or second, they don't
[1:29:41] feel safe with you yet. It can be a hint
[1:29:44] that you went too too fast. If someone
[1:29:48] says I kind of or I'm not sure, you
[1:29:51] might have jumped to level three too
[1:29:52] quickly and they are not ready to share
[1:29:54] or they are embarrassed about something.
[1:29:56] They have shame or they have something
[1:29:58] in their past that they feel is very
[1:30:00] unlucky but they don't feel ready to
[1:30:02] share it.
[1:30:03] >> Have they done studies on this this
[1:30:05] particular question?
[1:30:06] >> I think only we have.
[1:30:07] >> Only you have.
[1:30:08] >> Richard Wisman has done a lot of
[1:30:11] research on luck specifically and he he
[1:30:14] there's like a luck test you can give
[1:30:15] someone. We did this in our in our lab.
[1:30:18] So, it's a official luck test to see how
[1:30:20] lucky you think you are. It's like a 10
[1:30:22] question diagnostic and it asks all
[1:30:23] these different variations of that
[1:30:25] question. So, it is academically
[1:30:26] studied. But I don't think what's
[1:30:28] studied, at least not yet, is how your
[1:30:30] answer is going to dictate your life.
[1:30:32] Like I would love to know maybe future
[1:30:34] research in our lab is if you consider
[1:30:36] yourself very lucky, do you make more
[1:30:38] money?
[1:30:39] >> Do you make less money? Is there any
[1:30:40] income? Are you older? Are you younger?
[1:30:43] Are you a child of privilege or not? So,
[1:30:48] I I think it's coming. I mean, I think
[1:30:50] that's where this excitement kind of
[1:30:52] comes from. At least it gets me excited
[1:30:53] as a as a behavior researcher. [snorts]
[1:30:56] >> I I was just looking at that study by
[1:30:58] Dr. Richard Wisman. He discovered that
[1:31:00] people who answer yes, I am lucky
[1:31:02] actually generate their own good fortune
[1:31:03] by acting very acting in very specific
[1:31:06] ways. They have lower anxiety. They have
[1:31:08] higher extraversion. They tend to talk
[1:31:11] talk to lots of people and make lots of
[1:31:12] friendships and relationships. High
[1:31:14] openness to experience, relentless
[1:31:15] optimism.
[1:31:17] That's very very interesting.
[1:31:18] >> I I have considered I've really
[1:31:20] considered this doing a luck workshop
[1:31:23] where all I do in the workshop is help
[1:31:25] you harvest your own feelings of luck.
[1:31:28] It is so
[1:31:30] healing. It is so fulfilling to feel
[1:31:33] lucky to wake up in the day and feel
[1:31:35] lucky. It's better than gratitude,
[1:31:37] right? Gratitude is sort of shaming in
[1:31:39] its own way. I'm like kind of
[1:31:40] anti-gratitude, but feeling like you're
[1:31:42] really really lucky is is so empowering.
[1:31:44] And so I've thought about creating luck
[1:31:46] labs, like a little luck workshop where
[1:31:48] you can come and we're going to we're
[1:31:49] going to convince you that you're lucky
[1:31:50] because it's that good of an investment
[1:31:51] in your in your feelings of happiness.
[1:31:53] >> I I would like to ask the audience, I'm
[1:31:55] just super interested. I would like to
[1:31:56] ask all the uh people listening now if
[1:31:59] they do you guys feel lucky and I would
[1:32:01] like honest answers in the comment
[1:32:03] section. And don't I know you just heard
[1:32:05] us say that lucky people are going to
[1:32:07] have uh have better lives. Just be
[1:32:10] completely honest just for pure research
[1:32:12] purposes. And do you know what? I know
[1:32:13] people that don't feel lucky are going
[1:32:14] to be honest because
[1:32:15] >> they're going to be honest and they're
[1:32:17] going to tell you exactly why. And
[1:32:18] they're going to get really mad at us
[1:32:18] because they're going to say that
[1:32:19] something really bad happened to them
[1:32:20] and how dare we tell them that luck is
[1:32:21] good.
[1:32:22] >> That's what's going to happen cuz I've
[1:32:23] I've heard them do it.
[1:32:24] >> Can you get mad at Vanessa and not me?
[1:32:25] I'm
[1:32:26] >> No, [laughter] get mad at him.
[1:32:27] >> No, it's fine. You can get mad at me.
[1:32:28] It's fine.
[1:32:28] >> I have no shell. But but but this is why
[1:32:30] I'm asking because I want to I want to
[1:32:32] I'm coming from one perspective from one
[1:32:34] experience that I've had in my life and
[1:32:35] I feel like I am grateful and I've been
[1:32:37] very privileged. So I would like to
[1:32:39] understand why other people do not feel
[1:32:40] lucky in their lives and you know I I
[1:32:43] guess it would also be surprising to
[1:32:44] hear that some people have been through
[1:32:46] objectively horrific things but they
[1:32:48] some of them might still feel lucky. So
[1:32:49] that would be interesting as well. So
[1:32:50] I'll be reading the comments
[1:32:52] >> and that is also fact versus frame.
[1:32:54] >> Okay. [clears throat]
[1:32:54] >> Right. So the way that we begin to
[1:32:57] rewrite our story and I believe so much
[1:33:00] in self- authorship, right? Yes, there's
[1:33:03] a story you tell yourself about
[1:33:04] yourself, but you also are the author of
[1:33:05] your own life, right? You're the author
[1:33:07] of your own narrative. The way that we
[1:33:09] begin to take up the pen, like become
[1:33:11] the author of our own life, is we ask
[1:33:12] ourselves questions about why do I have
[1:33:15] that idea? What is the evidence for that
[1:33:17] idea? The facts might be there, but our
[1:33:20] frame of them is different. So, for
[1:33:21] example, take a breakup. And I can
[1:33:22] almost always find out someone's
[1:33:24] contamination or redemption narrative if
[1:33:26] I ask them about a breakup. People with
[1:33:28] contamination narratives will almost
[1:33:30] always say, "The breakup nearly
[1:33:31] destroyed me." The I don't trust men
[1:33:34] anymore. I don't trust women anymore.
[1:33:36] You know, it just it it just took from
[1:33:38] me. I feel like a shell of myself. And
[1:33:40] it stays that way. Everyone has a period
[1:33:42] of a bad breakup time, but they never
[1:33:44] get through that. That they feel like
[1:33:45] that that breakup fundamentally changed
[1:33:48] them for the worse. Whereas someone with
[1:33:50] a a positive or a redemption narrative,
[1:33:53] even if it was a horrific breakup,
[1:33:55] they'll say, "I will never do that
[1:33:57] again." That made me stronger. It was
[1:33:59] horrible. It was one of the worst times
[1:34:01] of my life, but I know now who not to
[1:34:03] choose, and I know who to choose. It
[1:34:05] made me feel stronger. It's that
[1:34:06] anti-fragile piece.
[1:34:08] >> Would you give someone a second date if
[1:34:11] on the first date they turned to you and
[1:34:13] when you asked them the question, "Are
[1:34:14] you a lucky person?" They went,
[1:34:15] "Absolutely not." I probably wouldn't.
[1:34:19] You are going to be [laughter] so mad.
[1:34:20] >> You are so cooked. They are going to get
[1:34:22] you. Get it, guys.
[1:34:24] >> You were so single. [laughter]
[1:34:26] >> You were so cooked.
[1:34:27] >> It's a hypothetical.
[1:34:29] >> It was a trap. That's what it was.
[1:34:31] [laughter]
[1:34:32] >> You're so mean. You're like, "Look,
[1:34:34] throwing us into the fire." Well, don't
[1:34:36] worry. I got a wine bottle coming. So,
[1:34:38] [laughter]
[1:34:40] >> no. I I was thinking I was thinking
[1:34:42] >> No. Would you Gosh, I'm going to ask you
[1:34:45] now. If someone if I was on a first date
[1:34:47] and I said, "Are you a lucky person?"
[1:34:49] and they said to me,
[1:34:50] >> "Absolutely
[1:34:52] not."
[1:34:54] >> Okay, I'd be curious.
[1:34:55] >> Sure, of course.
[1:34:56] >> And I would want to hear what they
[1:34:57] >> would leave. I wouldn't leave the date.
[1:34:58] >> But if they were then just like
[1:35:00] extremely pessimistic, I would probably
[1:35:02] arrive at this assumption that this is
[1:35:03] probably not going to be a match cuz
[1:35:05] that's not my inclination. And it
[1:35:07] doesn't it takes too much energy out of
[1:35:08] me. And that is also because I think
[1:35:11] this is beautiful bridge to the next
[1:35:14] concept. Once you begin to uncover these
[1:35:16] narrative hints, okay, you're talking
[1:35:17] about luck, you're talking about
[1:35:18] redemption or contamination narrative. I
[1:35:20] believe and this is more art than
[1:35:21] science that there are five archetypes
[1:35:24] of these stories. So I have harvested
[1:35:27] hundreds, I wouldn't say thousands,
[1:35:28] hundreds of narratives. It's actually
[1:35:30] quite hard to ask someone what is your
[1:35:33] self-narrative? It's very hard question,
[1:35:34] but there are questions that we can
[1:35:36] begin to talk about that that do harvest
[1:35:38] it. I notice patterns. There are the
[1:35:41] same narratives over and over again, and
[1:35:42] there about five of them. I think that
[1:35:44] we share an archetype. I think we do.
[1:35:47] Now, maybe I'm flattering myself. So,
[1:35:48] the first archetype is the ambitious
[1:35:51] hero. And I think this is us, but you'll
[1:35:54] tell me. So, the ambitious hero um has
[1:35:56] had challenges and obstacles, but they
[1:35:57] feel that their grit and resilience have
[1:35:59] they've been able to overcome. They
[1:36:01] struggle because they are never
[1:36:04] satisfied.
[1:36:05] >> And what is an archetype? Like what is
[1:36:07] >> I got excited. Yes. So this is not like
[1:36:10] a personality type. It's not like my
[1:36:12] brig or anyagram. Those are quite like
[1:36:14] stable. This is a fluid archetype of how
[1:36:17] you're seeing your story in this moment.
[1:36:19] For example, I might ask you if if you
[1:36:22] had to write a memoir, what would the
[1:36:24] title of your memoir be?
[1:36:25] >> And this is going to impact how I have
[1:36:26] conversations with people.
[1:36:28] >> This is going to impact how you have
[1:36:29] conversations with people. how you
[1:36:31] behave interpersonally, so how you act
[1:36:33] at work. Like an ambitious hero is going
[1:36:35] to act very, very differently at work
[1:36:36] than a contented pragnatist.
[1:36:37] >> And is it going to impact who I'm
[1:36:39] attracted to platonically and
[1:36:40] romantically?
[1:36:41] >> Absolutely. It dictates your
[1:36:42] relationship patterns.
[1:36:43] >> Okay.
[1:36:44] >> Right. Your conversational patterns, how
[1:36:45] you converse, how you bond, how you
[1:36:47] connect, and more importantly, since I'm
[1:36:48] so interested in work conversations, how
[1:36:50] you work, how you view effectiveness,
[1:36:52] how you view efficiency. My founders,
[1:36:54] right, ambitious hero founders are going
[1:36:56] to have the same struggles over and over
[1:36:57] again. They're going to be very
[1:36:58] different than the contender pragmatist
[1:37:00] founder.
[1:37:00] >> So the ambitious hero, what's their sort
[1:37:01] of internal monologue?
[1:37:02] >> Their internal monologue is I got this.
[1:37:04] I can do this. Hustle, hustle more,
[1:37:07] >> more, bigger, more, bigger, bigger,
[1:37:09] more. I can do that better. I can do
[1:37:10] that bigger. Right. It's like we I get,
[1:37:13] you know, shiny object syndrome is like
[1:37:15] one of the nicer ways to talk about
[1:37:17] ambitious heroes. You know, shiny object
[1:37:18] syndrome.
[1:37:19] >> No.
[1:37:20] >> It's like a founder who won't stop
[1:37:21] trying new initiatives and keeps
[1:37:23] throwing new ideas on the table when
[1:37:24] they haven't finished their first one.
[1:37:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you have that?
[1:37:28] >> Well, yes, but I have put uh systems in
[1:37:31] place.
[1:37:32] >> Ah, yeah.
[1:37:32] >> To make sure that it doesn't uh sink the
[1:37:35] company as Jeff Basil said. Jeff Basil
[1:37:36] said, "I've got enough ideas to sync the
[1:37:38] company and he has to learn to release
[1:37:40] them at a cadence that the company can
[1:37:41] tolerate." So, that's
[1:37:43] >> love it. And that's beautiful cuz that's
[1:37:45] self-nowledge and everything that we're
[1:37:47] talking about is self-nowledge, right?
[1:37:48] If you're able to talk this through, you
[1:37:50] have self-nowledge to go to your team.
[1:37:51] When I come to you with a new idea next
[1:37:53] week, say no.
[1:37:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:37:55] >> Don't let me do that. It's too much.
[1:37:57] Right? So in behaviorally if you are the
[1:38:00] ambitious hero you know you dream big
[1:38:02] you can burn out because you dream so
[1:38:04] big. We tend like I tend to like work
[1:38:06] almost regulates me. Like when I'm
[1:38:08] working I'm like I'm being so
[1:38:10] productive. We are helping people. Help
[1:38:12] more people. Help all the people right
[1:38:13] like it's [laughter] like it's too much.
[1:38:16] And so we can we can burn out from a
[1:38:18] productivity perspective. We have shiny
[1:38:20] object syndrome and in conversation in
[1:38:21] relationships. People sometimes don't
[1:38:23] always understand our drive. Like we're
[1:38:26] so driven. We get accused of hustle
[1:38:27] culture a lot. We can burn other people
[1:38:30] out by trying to bring them with us on
[1:38:31] how fast we want to work, how long we
[1:38:33] want to work. You know, those are not
[1:38:35] necessarily bad things, but they're
[1:38:36] traits. They're behavioral traits. Okay.
[1:38:39] And by the way, so this is um number
[1:38:41] one, the ambitious hero. Um one way that
[1:38:43] you can kind of sus these out is asking
[1:38:45] the question, what character are you
[1:38:48] most like? What book, movie, or TV
[1:38:50] character are you most like? not look
[1:38:52] like life choices, personality, core
[1:38:54] values.
[1:38:55] >> And I said pursuit of happiness, which
[1:38:56] is Yeah.
[1:38:57] >> Yeah. Which is
[1:38:59] >> ambitious hero.
[1:39:00] >> Yeah. But why did you choose that
[1:39:01] character?
[1:39:02] >> Because he he the reason why I chose the
[1:39:05] character was because when I was 18, 19
[1:39:08] years old and I was literally
[1:39:09] shoplifting food to feed myself. I
[1:39:11] watched that movie
[1:39:12] >> randomly and I was in bed the day that
[1:39:14] day and it really made me feel like
[1:39:16] >> like the journey I was on, you know,
[1:39:18] when he was in the he was in the like
[1:39:19] disabled toilet with his kid.
[1:39:20] >> The the toilet scene.
[1:39:22] >> Yeah.
[1:39:22] >> And I remember like my life in shades
[1:39:25] felt a little bit like that at the
[1:39:26] moment. Just, you know, kind of
[1:39:28] >> doing things to feed myself that would,
[1:39:30] you know, and keep the lights on and
[1:39:31] swerving these landlords cuz my my rent
[1:39:33] was 5 months late and all the kind of
[1:39:35] games I played to try and just survive.
[1:39:37] And then he went on to be successful. So
[1:39:39] it was it gave me a lot of hope. So and
[1:39:41] he's also black.
[1:39:43] >> Mhm. So it was really important in that
[1:39:45] interaction that I didn't assume about
[1:39:48] that character. I asked you why and then
[1:39:51] you told me a story about what you saw
[1:39:53] and when you saw it. A really critical
[1:39:55] part of this exercise is that you asked
[1:39:57] someone about the character and then you
[1:39:58] say why. What traits? Because the traits
[1:40:00] that they say next are going to tell you
[1:40:02] every single thing about that person.
[1:40:05] For example, I if I ask someone, you
[1:40:07] know, what what person are you most
[1:40:08] like? And they say, "Mother Teresa." I
[1:40:11] say, "Oh, you know, why?" You know, I
[1:40:14] might not agree with them. Like, maybe I
[1:40:16] don't see that, but whatever they say
[1:40:17] next is going to tell me a lot about how
[1:40:19] they view themselves, whether it's true
[1:40:20] or not.
[1:40:21] >> And this is the hardest part about level
[1:40:22] three, and it's the most inconvenient
[1:40:24] part of level three. You probably won't
[1:40:26] agree.
[1:40:27] >> Okay?
[1:40:28] >> There's a lot of times where people in
[1:40:30] my life have told me self narratives,
[1:40:31] and I'm like, "What?
[1:40:32] >> What's yours? What character are you
[1:40:34] most like and why?
[1:40:35] >> Okay, so I relate most with Claire Duny
[1:40:39] from Modern Family, especially in her
[1:40:41] entrepreneurial years. Most people would
[1:40:43] be surprised that actually identify
[1:40:45] first as a mother, not an entrepreneur.
[1:40:47] Most of my day is with my kids. Uh I'm a
[1:40:50] little awkward. I'm very neurotic. Um
[1:40:52] and so I resonate most with her. And
[1:40:55] that um ambitious working mom is sort of
[1:40:59] what I'm constantly struggling with.
[1:41:02] Constantly. Yeah, especially as an
[1:41:04] ambitious hero because I want to do both
[1:41:05] perfectly and I I cannot. Yeah. So, by
[1:41:09] the way, if you're having trouble with
[1:41:10] this question, this is the one way that
[1:41:12] I think AI can help. [gasps]
[1:41:15] You know, I have I have my own, you
[1:41:16] know, relationship with AI. But, um, AI
[1:41:19] can be a great brainstorm partner. It
[1:41:20] can be a great conversational practice
[1:41:22] partner. It can be a great role
[1:41:23] playinging partner. And this is actually
[1:41:24] one way that I like it. So, if you're
[1:41:26] not sure, if you're like, Vanessa, I
[1:41:28] don't know. I don't know what character
[1:41:29] I am. Go to AI and ask this.
[1:41:32] What book, movie, or TV character is
[1:41:34] most like me in the way that I treat
[1:41:37] you? Especially if you have a
[1:41:39] relationship with your AI. I am fill in
[1:41:42] the blank. So for me, it was mom,
[1:41:44] entrepreneur, neurotic.
[1:41:48] My personality is how describe a person.
[1:41:52] My core values are
[1:41:56] what character is most similar to me.
[1:41:57] And it will pull a bunch of characters
[1:41:59] that are those traits. So this is the
[1:42:01] one way that it can help you some
[1:42:02] sometimes brainstorm.
[1:42:05] >> Okay. The ambitious hero, right? We
[1:42:06] started with that.
[1:42:07] >> Yeah.
[1:42:08] >> Archetype number one. The second one is
[1:42:10] called the content. I called it the
[1:42:12] contented pragmatist. Again, these are a
[1:42:14] little more art than science. The
[1:42:15] contented pragmatist is somebody who
[1:42:18] likes it as it is. They are quite
[1:42:22] content, very happy with where things
[1:42:24] are. They don't really need to change it
[1:42:26] if it's not broken. They are not very
[1:42:29] ambitious cuz they're very grounded in
[1:42:32] where they are. They love habit and
[1:42:34] ritual and tradition in conversation
[1:42:37] relationally. They struggle when people
[1:42:39] push them to try harder or do more
[1:42:42] because they're like, "I'm good. Life is
[1:42:45] good. Why would we change things?" I
[1:42:48] have two very specific people in my life
[1:42:49] who are very annoyed by me as the
[1:42:52] ambitious hero because I have a new goal
[1:42:54] every month and I'm constantly like
[1:42:56] they're like I love smoothies or they
[1:42:58] make great granola and I'm like you
[1:43:00] should bottle it up and sell it at
[1:43:01] farmers markets and they're like but why
[1:43:04] and I'm like but why not right so
[1:43:06] relationally um they're often seen as
[1:43:09] unambitious but actually they're just
[1:43:10] quite content.
[1:43:11] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[1:43:13] Interesting.
[1:43:13] >> Do you know someone like that?
[1:43:14] >> I do. I was just thinking also about
[1:43:16] just business generally and how when
[1:43:17] you're hiring teams or even in
[1:43:19] relationships you can you can get a
[1:43:20] contented pragmatist holding back an
[1:43:22] ambitious hero and I've often had
[1:43:24] friends come to me and say like I've got
[1:43:25] this big startup idea that I want to
[1:43:26] launch but my girlfriend or my husband
[1:43:28] is
[1:43:29] >> yeah telling me to like be realistic and
[1:43:31] >> and they tend to be more a little bit a
[1:43:32] little bit more fear-based. It's not
[1:43:34] that they're negative but they they are
[1:43:36] so contented that they're very very
[1:43:38] hyper practical. I also think on a team
[1:43:41] it is important to know what role will
[1:43:43] be best served by this ambitious roles,
[1:43:46] growth roles, rain maker roles, leaders
[1:43:50] who are in a industry of change. Some
[1:43:53] like fiduciary, you know, I do a lot of
[1:43:55] finance conferences and I work with a
[1:43:57] lot of folks in banking. Sometimes
[1:43:59] ambitious heroes can really be crushed
[1:44:02] in those roles because there isn't a lot
[1:44:03] of fastmoving growth in those companies.
[1:44:06] A contented pregnant can do really well
[1:44:08] in a very stable traditional industry
[1:44:10] with a lot of regulation because they
[1:44:12] are very happy to live in that
[1:44:13] regulation. You might want someone
[1:44:15] might. I say might because it really
[1:44:16] depends on your company, but in a
[1:44:18] corporate culture, you know, you might
[1:44:19] want a contented pragmatist running your
[1:44:22] books.
[1:44:22] >> Mhm.
[1:44:24] >> They're quite conservative. They're not
[1:44:26] going to make a big leap here, right?
[1:44:27] And they're also they're like, "Let's
[1:44:29] keep it as it is. Let's know what we're
[1:44:30] doing. Don't don't break don't change if
[1:44:32] it's not broken." Right? So you have to
[1:44:34] think about your roles in a hiring
[1:44:35] manager. It depends on how your what
[1:44:38] your company is like.
[1:44:39] >> And in terms of conversation tips,
[1:44:41] >> are there different tips for different
[1:44:43] >> archetypes? An ambitious hero, they are
[1:44:46] going to get so much dopamine talking
[1:44:48] about goals, talking about new, talking
[1:44:51] about progress. They are juiced by
[1:44:54] progress and they want to hear about
[1:44:56] progress too. So not only are they
[1:44:58] wanting to like, you know, I when
[1:45:00] someone asks me how are you? It takes
[1:45:03] everything in me to not share my
[1:45:04] metrics. Like I know that's not socially
[1:45:06] acceptable. So I have to be like I am
[1:45:08] doing great. The business is exploding
[1:45:10] and then I just stop, right? Because it
[1:45:12] would be weird if I was like we have
[1:45:13] 305% growth on Instagram, you know? Like
[1:45:16] right cuz we love ambition. I also love
[1:45:17] ambition in others. My gosh. Like I when
[1:45:20] I hear about my friend's side hustle
[1:45:21] that's growing like I'm that's all my
[1:45:23] text, all my check-in texts. I'm just
[1:45:24] thinking about you is how's the biz?
[1:45:27] How's the traffic? How are the book
[1:45:28] sales? How are the movie sales? Like I
[1:45:30] want to hear about growth. A canop
[1:45:32] pragmatist, they want to talk about
[1:45:33] ritual. They want to talk about what
[1:45:35] works. They want to savor life life's
[1:45:37] pleasures. They're very good at
[1:45:38] savoring. And by the way, this can be a
[1:45:40] wonderful relationship sometimes.
[1:45:42] Because sometimes the contented
[1:45:44] pragmatist reminds the ambitious hero.
[1:45:46] Enjoy it.
[1:45:47] >> Enjoy [clears throat] it. You've worked
[1:45:49] so hard. Like just take in the view for
[1:45:51] a moment. And so they love gratitude.
[1:45:54] They love habit, ritual, routine. Um
[1:45:57] they love to be honored for what works.
[1:45:59] They're the ones who will make a
[1:46:01] beautiful Thanksgiving dinner and they
[1:46:03] want to have that three-hour dinner and
[1:46:05] savor it and not talk about next year
[1:46:06] and not talk about goals and just savor
[1:46:08] this moment and talk about what they did
[1:46:10] last year and the year before that. A
[1:46:12] little bit different. Okay. Okay. This
[1:46:15] is I think the most important one to
[1:46:16] talk about actually. I think it's the
[1:46:17] least understood of all the archetypes
[1:46:20] which is the selfless helper. Okay.
[1:46:23] [snorts] This is such a clear narrative.
[1:46:26] I almost always can predict it within
[1:46:28] the first few minutes of conversation
[1:46:30] and that is because selfless helpers
[1:46:32] their entire story is about giving.
[1:46:35] Their entire reason for being is being
[1:46:37] of service. They almost always pick
[1:46:40] careers that are of service. They almost
[1:46:42] always pick careers teachers, coaches,
[1:46:45] trainers, nurses, doctors. And that is
[1:46:48] because they are so ingrained that to
[1:46:50] have worth is to help.
[1:46:53] And often times where they can sometimes
[1:46:55] get into trouble is they don't feel
[1:46:59] worthy if they are not helping. And so
[1:47:02] they help so much that there's nothing
[1:47:04] left. They have compassion burnout or
[1:47:07] compassion fatigue because they are
[1:47:10] giving and giving and giving and giving.
[1:47:11] They cannot say no. In a relationship
[1:47:15] they are beautiful to be in a
[1:47:16] relationship with because they are
[1:47:17] givers, right? They are they are
[1:47:18] nurturers. They are giving. They're
[1:47:20] they're you know a lot of parents can
[1:47:23] flip into self-el helpers once they
[1:47:25] become a parent. I've seen this happen
[1:47:26] with both moms and dads. The moment they
[1:47:29] have a baby they flip into selfless
[1:47:30] helper cuz all of a sudden their purpose
[1:47:32] is there is to take care of this little
[1:47:34] person. The problem is that they h they
[1:47:36] they have a really hard time saying no.
[1:47:38] >> They're people pleasers.
[1:47:39] >> Yeah. They have they struggle with
[1:47:41] boundaries. They say yes to too much and
[1:47:44] they put themselves last. Can be both
[1:47:46] good and bad in a relationship. And so
[1:47:48] if you're in a relationship with them,
[1:47:50] sometimes half of it is just letting
[1:47:51] them stand up to protect themselves to
[1:47:53] not give too much. And I mentioned this
[1:47:55] very briefly earlier, but I've had many
[1:47:58] friends who are selfless help helpers
[1:48:00] and they attract takers,
[1:48:02] right? They attract high conflict
[1:48:05] people. You know what I mean by high
[1:48:07] conflict?
[1:48:07] >> Oh, okay. Yeah.
[1:48:09] >> A high conflict person is Bill Eddie's
[1:48:12] work. He estimates that 10% of the
[1:48:14] population is a high conflict person.
[1:48:17] A high conflict person is someone who
[1:48:21] thrives with drama. They create
[1:48:24] difficulty in their relationships. They
[1:48:26] almost like to have difficult
[1:48:28] conversations. They thrive with that
[1:48:30] kind of drama. They see an absolutes. So
[1:48:33] they often speak in like black or white.
[1:48:35] Um they see no nuance. They weaponize
[1:48:37] emotions.
[1:48:39] these days they often sometimes use
[1:48:44] psychology
[1:48:45] to their advantage by taking advantage
[1:48:47] of people and the the worst high
[1:48:50] conflict people and this is where I've
[1:48:51] noticed it in my work when I was
[1:48:52] listening and reading Billi's work I was
[1:48:54] like [gasps]
[1:48:56] they actually are enablers they can get
[1:48:58] other people to do their dirty work for
[1:48:59] them so they can sometimes put a seed in
[1:49:02] a selfless helper's ear and the selfless
[1:49:04] helper will go how dare they and they'll
[1:49:07] go fight for you and so sometimes
[1:49:09] selfless helper ers, they are roped into
[1:49:11] things that are not necessarily what
[1:49:12] they should be doing because they are
[1:49:14] standing up for the person they care
[1:49:15] about.
[1:49:16] >> And so if you're dealing with a selfless
[1:49:18] helper in terms of conversation,
[1:49:20] >> yes, sometimes they even think talking
[1:49:22] about themselves is taking.
[1:49:24] >> Okay.
[1:49:24] >> So you might sometimes in conversation
[1:49:26] like you're asking them a question and
[1:49:27] they're like, "Oh no, no, enough about
[1:49:28] me."
[1:49:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:49:30] >> Oh, let's talk about you. Oh, I want to
[1:49:31] help you. How can I help you? It's so
[1:49:33] funny like my friends who are selfless
[1:49:34] helpers, I cannot get them to tell me
[1:49:37] what I can help them with cuz all they
[1:49:38] want to do is check in on me and I'm
[1:49:40] like, "No, no, I really do want to hear
[1:49:41] about you." So sometimes they won't take
[1:49:43] the ball cuz they're worried it's
[1:49:45] selfish. And so sometimes getting them
[1:49:47] to open up can be hard cuz they feel
[1:49:48] like their needs are not important, but
[1:49:49] their needs are very important. Like
[1:49:51] they're such beautiful people. So I
[1:49:53] think in conversation, the greatest gift
[1:49:54] we can give a selfless helper is letting
[1:49:56] them know that you're understood. I
[1:49:59] value you. And getting to know you is
[1:50:01] not taking from me. It's giving to me. I
[1:50:04] have to tell my friends, it makes me
[1:50:06] feel good to help you. It makes me feel
[1:50:08] good to hear about what's going on for
[1:50:10] you. You're actually giving to me by
[1:50:11] telling me about yourself, not taking
[1:50:13] from me. So, we have to gift to them. I
[1:50:16] think we have to be extremely
[1:50:17] conversationally generous with them.
[1:50:19] >> Mhm.
[1:50:19] >> Do you know [clears throat] Do you know
[1:50:20] anyone?
[1:50:20] >> Yes, I do.
[1:50:21] >> Oh, lovely.
[1:50:22] >> Yeah. And it all it all tracks with
[1:50:24] everything you said. So,
[1:50:24] >> and and in corporate like right all
[1:50:26] these apply to work. These are great if
[1:50:30] you have a not always but often managers
[1:50:33] can do great things as selfless helpers
[1:50:36] because they are so attuned to others
[1:50:38] but they are very good at bringing out
[1:50:40] performance. Not always but I've seen
[1:50:42] really really amazing managers who they
[1:50:46] know the ROI they know metrics like
[1:50:47] they're following their KPIs but they're
[1:50:49] so good at finding how does this person
[1:50:51] need to be helped? How could this person
[1:50:52] be their best selves? Oh that person has
[1:50:54] a great expert power. They're so good at
[1:50:56] that that they bring up performance in
[1:50:58] everyone,
[1:50:58] >> but they might avoid the difficult
[1:51:00] conversation.
[1:51:02] These people tend to be a little bit
[1:51:04] conflict avoidant.
[1:51:05] >> They can be conflict avoidant, but
[1:51:07] they're very good at framing everything
[1:51:10] as we're in this together. [gasps]
[1:51:13] So yes, they can be conflict avoidant,
[1:51:14] but the really good managers who are
[1:51:16] excellent conversationalists, they are
[1:51:18] able to frame bad news and hard feedback
[1:51:20] as I want to help you. Mhm.
[1:51:23] >> The reason I'm giving you this feedback
[1:51:24] is cuz I so want you to succeed. And the
[1:51:26] person on the receiving end goes, "I
[1:51:28] trust you. I know that." Okay.
[1:51:30] >> So, yes, if if they're not excellent
[1:51:32] conversationalist, it's true. They they
[1:51:33] can be avoidant. But if they learn how
[1:51:35] to be assertive, and by the way,
[1:51:36] learning, you know, you can be
[1:51:37] assertive, then they are uh tremendous
[1:51:40] in conversation because they're people
[1:51:41] trust them because they come from a good
[1:51:43] place. Okay. The creative disruptor.
[1:51:48] So, the creative disruptor. This is my
[1:51:50] most challenging archetype. So, I'm
[1:51:52] really going to try to talk about this
[1:51:53] archetype in a positive way. Creative
[1:51:56] disruptors do not like rules. Their
[1:51:59] entire ethos is
[1:52:02] breaking things. They want to disrupt.
[1:52:05] They want to go anti-norm. They want to
[1:52:07] be countercultural. They're the ones who
[1:52:09] are like, I don't need a blueprint.
[1:52:12] [gasps]
[1:52:12] And they them and me in conversation is
[1:52:15] is not always the best. There are
[1:52:16] probably the ones in the com comments
[1:52:18] who are like, "Well, this doesn't apply
[1:52:20] to me because of all these reasons cuz
[1:52:21] they want to push. They want to
[1:52:24] challenge." And this is wonderful
[1:52:26] because they often are the really
[1:52:28] creative thinkers, right? They often are
[1:52:31] the ones who are thinking outside the
[1:52:32] box the most. They're often the ones who
[1:52:34] are willing to challenge the way
[1:52:35] something has always been done. The
[1:52:37] problem is is sometimes that can rub
[1:52:39] people the wrong way. And sometimes
[1:52:41] these folks can thrive over conflict in
[1:52:43] the way of it's just it's fun for them.
[1:52:45] like it's fun to negotiate, it's fun to
[1:52:47] push a litigators, my litigators who are
[1:52:49] watching, I find that my my litigators
[1:52:51] tend to fall into this into this
[1:52:53] category
[1:52:54] >> or very disruptive entrepreneurs.
[1:52:57] >> I I know there's ones on this show, I've
[1:52:59] listened to the interviews with them and
[1:53:00] I go, "Oh, that's a creative disruptor."
[1:53:01] It's someone who
[1:53:03] >> they're not only building something, but
[1:53:04] they're not quite an ambitious hero
[1:53:05] because they want to break things. Like,
[1:53:06] they want to build it and break it. They
[1:53:08] want to reinvent the entire system, and
[1:53:11] they're doing it. You know, Edward
[1:53:13] Snowden is is one of the examples I give
[1:53:14] in the book of like he he wanted to
[1:53:17] change something and also he he wanted
[1:53:19] to like stick it to the man like he
[1:53:20] wanted to break the system that he was
[1:53:22] in.
[1:53:23] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[1:53:23] H okay.
[1:53:25] >> Do you struggle with this? Do you like
[1:53:26] this interviews? They they're very
[1:53:28] interesting.
[1:53:29] >> They're really good in interviews. I
[1:53:30] actually interviewed someone the other
[1:53:31] day that was like that.
[1:53:32] >> So interesting
[1:53:33] >> because they have a contrarian view by
[1:53:35] nature. Everything they say is like
[1:53:36] deeply contrarian. Mhm.
[1:53:37] >> But I think I think having people like
[1:53:39] that that are challenging around their
[1:53:41] like default is challenge is quite is
[1:53:42] quite useful.
[1:53:43] >> Yes.
[1:53:44] >> It helps me be sort of refine my my my
[1:53:46] own points of view
[1:53:47] >> and they live as dream killers.
[1:53:48] >> Yeah.
[1:53:49] >> Right.
[1:53:50] It can be amazing but it can be
[1:53:52] exhausting. So in conversation it just
[1:53:54] it's good to go in prepared to know ah I
[1:53:57] need this. I want to get stronger. I
[1:53:58] want to be anti-fragile. They'll break
[1:53:59] for you to make you stronger or like I'm
[1:54:02] a delicate flower right now. I cannot do
[1:54:04] the dream killing. I'm exhausted by it.
[1:54:06] It's a fine line between that and like
[1:54:07] pessimism.
[1:54:09] >> Not always, but a sometimes they are
[1:54:11] pessimistic. Not always. We have a
[1:54:12] creative disruptor friend who [laughter]
[1:54:16] I did an Instagram post about this and I
[1:54:18] said, you know, I have a friend who
[1:54:20] always says I hate everything. Texts. I
[1:54:23] hate everything. I hate everything. And
[1:54:24] he Instagram knew it was him and served
[1:54:26] him the video and he texted me. He's
[1:54:28] like, is this me? And I was like, yes.
[1:54:30] >> Instagram knew it was him.
[1:54:31] >> Instagram. How dare you? Okay, the last
[1:54:34] one is one we've actually already
[1:54:35] touched on, which is the unlucky
[1:54:36] struggler. So, this is someone with a
[1:54:38] contamination narrative. And they feel
[1:54:41] that no matter what they've done, they
[1:54:43] are unlucky. They are struggling. They
[1:54:46] often feel stuck. They often feel
[1:54:48] misunderstood. They often feel
[1:54:50] overlooked.
[1:54:52] And the problem with unlucky strugglers,
[1:54:54] the the the character you want to think
[1:54:56] of is like George Castanza from
[1:54:58] Seinfeld, right? Like, h everything is
[1:55:00] bad for me. They can be hilarious, but
[1:55:03] they are tortured.
[1:55:05] They are tortured. And in conversation,
[1:55:09] it's really hard for ambitious heroes to
[1:55:11] not try to convince them that they're
[1:55:12] not unlucky. Like my biggest challenge
[1:55:15] with my unlucky strugglers in my life is
[1:55:18] to not try to flip them into something
[1:55:19] that they're not or try to convince them
[1:55:21] that they're actually lucky.
[1:55:24] They also in conversation can be very
[1:55:26] funny. Like they can make fun of
[1:55:28] themselves. They're so humble. their low
[1:55:31] self-esteem. Some of the best comedians
[1:55:33] are unlucky strugglers. And so they're
[1:55:36] beautiful to be around, but sometimes
[1:55:38] you wish that they had more confidence
[1:55:41] in the confidence you see in them, they
[1:55:43] had it, too.
[1:55:44] >> If you're in a conversation with one of
[1:55:46] these people that um you don't gel with,
[1:55:48] is there a I mean, you talk about it a
[1:55:50] little bit in the book, but what are the
[1:55:51] ways to get out of a bad conversation
[1:55:53] without offending people?
[1:55:54] >> Oh my goodness. Uh it's called a
[1:55:55] graceful exit. So there's a behavior
[1:55:58] concept the peak end effect that we
[1:56:00] remember the first few minutes of a
[1:56:01] conversation and the last few minutes of
[1:56:02] conversation but we tend to focus a lot
[1:56:05] on the first impression
[1:56:06] >> peak end
[1:56:07] >> like like so when you're remembering
[1:56:08] something you remember the peak of a
[1:56:09] conversation and the end of the
[1:56:10] conversation okay yeah we also of course
[1:56:12] the first impressions are incredibly
[1:56:13] important as well we tend to overindex
[1:56:15] on the first impression so we think a
[1:56:17] lot about our first few minutes our
[1:56:18] opening line maybe the highlight but we
[1:56:20] don't really think about the end but
[1:56:22] actually that's what we leave people
[1:56:23] with so I I have a formula you know I
[1:56:25] love a formula
[1:56:27] This calms my anxiety when I'm in a
[1:56:29] conversation and it's time to go, right?
[1:56:30] Either either we're not feeling it, like
[1:56:32] we're not words we're just not clicking
[1:56:33] or like we got to go. One, first is a
[1:56:36] future Q. So, it's future Q plus
[1:56:38] compliment or action. So, a future Q is
[1:56:41] when you ask about or mention something
[1:56:43] coming in the future. The reason for
[1:56:45] this is it's a subtle way to shift the
[1:56:47] brain into not here, later.
[1:56:49] >> Okay, so let's role play.
[1:56:50] >> Yeah, let's do it.
[1:56:51] >> We're at a we're at a party. We're
[1:56:52] having some wine and things get a little
[1:56:54] bit awkward. We ran out of things to say
[1:56:56] to each other.
[1:56:56] >> Do you have any fun plans coming up this
[1:56:58] weekend? Do you have anything fun?
[1:56:59] >> Uh, this is wine bar across town that
[1:57:01] I'm really into, so I'm probably just
[1:57:02] going to go there, I think, with some
[1:57:03] friends.
[1:57:03] >> Oh my gosh. Well, I hope it's lovely.
[1:57:05] Make sure to try um I love a Chardonnay.
[1:57:08] I don't know if you like white wine. Be
[1:57:09] sure to try it. Future cue. So, I I just
[1:57:12] asked you about a future and I'm going
[1:57:13] to wish you well on it, which already
[1:57:14] gets us into future mode. And then I'm
[1:57:16] going to end on a compliment or an
[1:57:18] action. It was so lovely talking to you.
[1:57:20] I hope you have a great time with that
[1:57:21] wine bar. I'm going to go get some more
[1:57:23] coffee. Have you got any fun plans
[1:57:25] coming up?
[1:57:25] >> I have so many fun plans coming up. My
[1:57:27] daughter's just started school and so
[1:57:29] we're having a celebratory Labor Day
[1:57:31] weekend this weekend.
[1:57:32] >> What do you love to talk about? That's
[1:57:34] the
[1:57:34] >> That's a signature question.
[1:57:35] >> What have you always wanted to learn?
[1:57:37] See, I'm What if they just go straight
[1:57:38] back in though? Cuz that's happened to
[1:57:40] me before where I've tried to
[1:57:41] >> Okay, this is where the the action and
[1:57:42] the compliment that that second piece.
[1:57:44] So, the future cue is we mentioned
[1:57:45] future and you're right. They might they
[1:57:46] might keep going with it. The action and
[1:57:48] compliment is really important. So
[1:57:51] wrapping up the conversation sounds like
[1:57:53] it's been so wonderful talking to you.
[1:57:54] And I'm using an exit voice. Do you hear
[1:57:56] the exit voice? Right. Our tone really
[1:57:58] matters here. So it's been so wonderful
[1:58:00] talking to you. I I hope that that goes
[1:58:02] great this weekend. Or be sure to
[1:58:03] connect with me on LinkedIn. I I I was
[1:58:05] so happy we were able to trade numbers.
[1:58:06] So you're mentioning the action that's
[1:58:08] going to come later. And it's using that
[1:58:10] closing voice and then the action. I'm
[1:58:12] going to go grab more coffee. I'm going
[1:58:13] to go say hi to the host. I'm going to
[1:58:15] run to the ladies room. I'm going to let
[1:58:17] head home. Right? like then they cannot
[1:58:20] right like you've ended it then and you
[1:58:22] also can use non-verbal cues here so the
[1:58:24] moment I take a step back the moment I
[1:58:26] angle my body towards the door our brain
[1:58:28] subtly sees ah they are literally trying
[1:58:30] to physically disengage so usually I
[1:58:31] pair those with those subtle non-verbal
[1:58:33] cues of like a slow back up and I angle
[1:58:35] towards the door
[1:58:36] >> okay
[1:58:36] >> and remember you can be assertive with
[1:58:38] this the worst kind of last impression
[1:58:41] is a lingering awkwardness there is
[1:58:44] nothing worse than a well this has been
[1:58:46] good it's it's been good for you. It's
[1:58:48] It's been good for me. Well, um, so, uh,
[1:58:54] those are the worst. So, be assertive
[1:58:55] with this. If you want to end it, if
[1:58:57] you're feeling it's the end, do it. It's
[1:58:59] been so great talking to you. I'm going
[1:59:00] to grab some more coffee. Good luck at
[1:59:02] the wine bar this weekend. Have so much
[1:59:03] fun, right? Like, be assertive with it
[1:59:05] or else it will linger. And that is just
[1:59:07] kryptonite for charisma.
[1:59:08] >> On this point of being assertive.
[1:59:10] >> Oh, yes.
[1:59:11] >> I was talking to some friends the other
[1:59:12] day about people that have aura and riz.
[1:59:16] >> Oh, yeah. Who has aura and rz? Who does
[1:59:18] >> I don't know. I don't really know what
[1:59:19] the words mean. I kind of know what aura
[1:59:21] means, but I don't know really know what
[1:59:22] rz means. So I I'm curious like how you
[1:59:24] define those terms and like how does one
[1:59:26] cultivate aura and riz?
[1:59:28] >> Okay, I think aura and rz and the only
[1:59:31] reason this is front of mind is is my
[1:59:34] daughter asked me, she heard one of my
[1:59:36] YouTube videos and she said, "What is
[1:59:37] charisma?" She asked me that and I was
[1:59:39] like oo like she's eight. I said
[1:59:41] charisma or rz or aura is someone that
[1:59:44] you really want to be around. It's when
[1:59:47] they walk into a room, you want to go
[1:59:48] over and talk to them, you want to sit
[1:59:50] near them, you want to listen to them,
[1:59:53] you want to work with them, you want to
[1:59:54] play with them. And I said, "Do you know
[1:59:56] anyone like that?" And she goes, "Oh,
[1:59:58] yes." And she named it was so
[2:00:00] interesting. She named two kids in her
[2:00:02] class that I had already identified as
[2:00:03] very charismatic. Like I knew I in my
[2:00:06] mind I knew who the charismatic kids
[2:00:08] were in her class. I had I had popped
[2:00:11] them, right? I I saw them. They were the
[2:00:13] kids that you really wanted to be
[2:00:14] around. they they have this aura about
[2:00:16] them and she named those exact two kids.
[2:00:19] So I think that that definition works.
[2:00:20] It's someone that we are drawn to
[2:00:22] verbally, physically. I think it also
[2:00:25] some of it is can be physical and
[2:00:26] there's something hormonal there as
[2:00:28] well. Um but it's someone we're drawn
[2:00:30] to.
[2:00:30] >> Okay. So based on the 20 years of
[2:00:32] research you've done Yes.
[2:00:33] >> if you were trying to teach me to have
[2:00:35] aura and rez.
[2:00:36] >> Yes.
[2:00:37] >> What are like the basics?
[2:00:39] >> Be really easy to talk to.
[2:00:41] >> Okay.
[2:00:41] >> Right. So the point of level one is to
[2:00:44] put someone at ease. We like to be pe
[2:00:47] around people who are one clearly
[2:00:49] signaling. We don't like people who are
[2:00:52] mute with their body language. We don't
[2:00:54] like people who under signal. We like
[2:00:56] people who clearly like us, right? So we
[2:00:58] have to be very aloud with our liking.
[2:01:00] So saying things like, "It's always so
[2:01:02] fun talking to you." Or, "Oh, you always
[2:01:04] have the best stories. Oh, you always
[2:01:07] make me laugh. I love when you're put on
[2:01:08] my team."
[2:01:09] So clearly signaling like and verbally I
[2:01:12] think we there's something called um
[2:01:14] signal amplification bias which is this
[2:01:16] bias that we have that we think we're
[2:01:18] being really obvious with our cues but
[2:01:20] we are not in fact being obvious. We
[2:01:22] think that people know that we like
[2:01:23] them. Of course they know that we like
[2:01:24] them but actually people underestimate
[2:01:26] liking. Right? The liking gap. So we
[2:01:28] like people who are very clearly
[2:01:30] broadcasting likes. And I have a funny
[2:01:32] story if I may. So, this hit very close
[2:01:37] embarrassingly to home because of my
[2:01:40] job. I don't know if this happens to
[2:01:41] you. My friends often ask me to sus out
[2:01:43] their partners, like potential partners.
[2:01:45] So, like a friend will be like, "Hey, I
[2:01:46] met a new guy. Can can you go out dinner
[2:01:48] with us and tell me what you think?"
[2:01:50] [gasps] Does that you?
[2:01:52] >> Absolutely not.
[2:01:53] >> Oh my [laughter] gosh.
[2:01:56] >> [snorts]
[2:01:57] >> So, I get this a lot and and by the way,
[2:01:59] I I'm I'm just a regular person, so I'm
[2:02:02] always like, "Are are you sure you
[2:02:03] really want to know what I'm Yes. So, I
[2:02:05] go on a lot of like second or third
[2:02:07] little ghosty coffee dates to see to sus
[2:02:09] out the guy that
[2:02:11] >> I [cough] It makes you feel needed.
[2:02:13] [clears throat and laughter] It makes me
[2:02:14] feel needed." Okay. I also love
[2:02:16] eavesdropping on like the date
[2:02:17] conversation. So, she said, "I really
[2:02:18] want you to meet this guy. Let's call
[2:02:20] him Schmobbert." Okay.
[2:02:24] >> Okay. [laughter]
[2:02:26] And so we go on this dinner. We have
[2:02:29] like a Mediterranean platter. And
[2:02:31] [sighs] you know, [gasps] he was okay.
[2:02:33] You know, I was like, "Okay, he's he's
[2:02:35] nice, but I wasn't like green flag,
[2:02:37] green flag." You know, it's kind of like
[2:02:38] me. So the next day I get the call.
[2:02:40] She's like, "Hey, what did you think?"
[2:02:43] And I'm about to say it's only okay when
[2:02:46] she goes, "You know what? He just loved
[2:02:48] you." Like, "Oh, what?" She said, "Oh,
[2:02:51] you know, he thought you were so funny
[2:02:53] and he already bought your Audible book
[2:02:55] and he just loved talking to you."
[2:02:58] Like the most I started to like him
[2:03:00] more. Like it was so embarrassing cuz as
[2:03:04] she was telling me all these things
[2:03:06] about how he liked me, I was like, you
[2:03:08] know,
[2:03:09] Robert, he is a great guy. He's clever.
[2:03:12] [laughter] He's so smart. He liked my he
[2:03:14] liked my jokes really. And she's like,
[2:03:16] yeah, he just, you know, he just really
[2:03:17] had a good time with you. And I felt
[2:03:20] like I liked him more in that moment.
[2:03:21] And I was horrified by my own response.
[2:03:23] And I realized
[2:03:26] we so want to be liked that when someone
[2:03:28] clearly signals liking, it makes us like
[2:03:31] them more. Right? So we can be
[2:03:33] charismatic. One is we send clear
[2:03:35] signals of liking. But also two, and we
[2:03:38] talked about this a little bit last
[2:03:39] time, is fundamentally 82% of our
[2:03:41] impressions of people are based on
[2:03:43] warmth and competence. So people who are
[2:03:46] first and is first signaling I'm open,
[2:03:49] I'm friendly, and then competent, I'm
[2:03:52] capable, I'm efficient, I'm effective,
[2:03:55] make us feel like I'm in good hands. In
[2:03:59] this way, every human being when we
[2:04:00] first meet, we're trying to answer two
[2:04:01] questions. Can I trust you? And can I
[2:04:03] rely on you? So the second thing that
[2:04:05] charismatic people are doing is they're
[2:04:07] signaling, you can trust me, and you can
[2:04:09] rely on me. I'm gonna get it done. I'm
[2:04:11] gonna only speak when I know something.
[2:04:13] I'm going to be assertive. I'm going to
[2:04:14] carry us through this conversation. I
[2:04:16] think that sort of the this came after
[2:04:18] Q's in a good way because Q's was very
[2:04:20] much about picking your signals,
[2:04:22] >> but conversation is about being a bit
[2:04:25] assertive about the plan, right? Like if
[2:04:27] you read this book, you are going to
[2:04:29] feel in control in conversation. You're
[2:04:30] going to feel like you're approaching a
[2:04:31] conversation and you know what you want
[2:04:33] to do if you have intention. We like
[2:04:35] that.
[2:04:36] >> Mhm.
[2:04:36] >> Charismatic people like they can they
[2:04:39] carry us, right? Like they're like we we
[2:04:41] got this. We're going to do level. I'm
[2:04:42] gonna ask about this. I'm gonna do dream
[2:04:43] killing. And if I like you, if I like
[2:04:45] you, we're going to talk about your
[2:04:46] character. And so I think that that plan
[2:04:49] is a secret door to charisma.
[2:04:52] >> Is there anything else that you know
[2:04:54] people accidentally do that holds them
[2:04:57] back from being someone of high aura?
[2:04:59] >> Yes, they try to be impressive. Now, I
[2:05:02] know we talked about this before, but
[2:05:05] here's what happens when you go into the
[2:05:08] conversation trying to sound smart,
[2:05:10] trying to impress people with your
[2:05:12] accolades and your background is you
[2:05:14] actually end up creating distance. And I
[2:05:16] have um a story where this felt very
[2:05:18] very real. So, I was um living in
[2:05:20] Austin, Texas. I I moved since then, but
[2:05:21] I was in Austin, Texas. And I was
[2:05:23] invited to a VIP party.
[2:05:24] >> She lives down at the beach in LA. So,
[2:05:26] if [laughter] anyone wants to do lunch
[2:05:28] or dinner or breakfast with Vanessa, she
[2:05:30] is I'll share her number in the comment
[2:05:32] section. It'll be pinned. [laughter]
[2:05:36] >> Exactly.
[2:05:38] So, I was in Austin and I was invited to
[2:05:40] this VIP party and I was like, "Oh man,
[2:05:42] like what why am I being invited?" Like,
[2:05:44] so imposter syndrome. So, we get there
[2:05:47] and I'm like immed like oh, I know that
[2:05:48] person's YouTube channel. Like, I know
[2:05:49] that person. Like, the people I
[2:05:51] immediately recognized and I'm like,
[2:05:52] "Wow." And then of course like within
[2:05:54] the first five minutes the leader of
[2:05:57] this group says we're going to get in a
[2:05:58] circle and we are going to introduce
[2:06:01] ourselves and this is like
[2:06:03] [sighs and gasps]
[2:06:03] so we get in a circle and the first
[2:06:05] person
[2:06:06] basically is like I'm a billionaire and
[2:06:10] I invented the internet or something
[2:06:12] like that and the second person is like
[2:06:14] >> I would love to know what they actually
[2:06:16] said. I don't that's what you that's
[2:06:17] what you heard. That's what I [laughter]
[2:06:19] I was like invented.
[2:06:21] >> Like it was so impressive. It hurt, you
[2:06:23] know, and I was like, "Okay, okay." It
[2:06:26] first person is all right. The second
[2:06:27] person is like, "I cured cancer, right?"
[2:06:29] Like like like amazing like and it was
[2:06:32] just like person after person. It was
[2:06:34] like getting more and more impressive
[2:06:35] and like it's slowly coming to me and I
[2:06:39] was like everyone was trying to be
[2:06:41] impressive, right? Like they're they
[2:06:42] were saying things that were meant to to
[2:06:45] shock and wow and awe you. It gets to me
[2:06:48] and I was like, "My name is Vanessa and
[2:06:51] I'm a recovering awkward person and I
[2:06:53] help smart awkward people with my books
[2:06:56] and my YouTube channel." And everyone
[2:06:58] laughed and took a deep breath. Now, I
[2:07:00] have other accolades that I could have
[2:07:01] shared, but I was like, "It's nothing in
[2:07:04] comparison." And also, I just wanted to
[2:07:06] be a little vulnerable. So, I said, "And
[2:07:08] I don't know why I was invited to this
[2:07:10] party." And everyone laughed, right?
[2:07:12] There's like a little bit of
[2:07:13] vulnerability. Every single person after
[2:07:15] me said, "I'm a recovering awkward
[2:07:17] person." So like they also were able to
[2:07:19] feel awkward. So it changed the nature
[2:07:21] of the rest of the invites, the rest of
[2:07:23] the introductions. And then afterwards,
[2:07:25] the circle like breaks up for
[2:07:26] networking. And most people came over to
[2:07:28] me, not the billionaire, not the cure of
[2:07:32] cancer, not the saving the earth climate
[2:07:34] change guru, but wanted to talk to me
[2:07:36] about awkwardness and about my YouTube
[2:07:38] channel and about they're smart, but
[2:07:40] they feel uncomfortable.
[2:07:42] And I realized like I was just the
[2:07:44] easiest person to talk to in that
[2:07:46] circle.
[2:07:47] >> You have aura, Vanessa.
[2:07:49] [sighs and gasps]
[2:07:49] >> You have I was the easiest person to
[2:07:52] talk to in that circle. And so I think
[2:07:54] that if we
[2:07:55] >> Do you have aura, Vanessa? You parlay
[2:07:57] that out.
[2:07:57] >> Maybe when my makeup is done.
[2:07:59] >> Do you have aura?
[2:08:00] >> When my makeup is done. Maybe.
[2:08:02] [laughter]
[2:08:03] >> Maybe when my makeup is done.
[2:08:05] >> Yeah. I mean, I don't I maybe [laughter]
[2:08:08] >> I don't know. Do I? you do have a
[2:08:10] workout.
[2:08:11] >> Um, so I I think that I just share that
[2:08:14] because we don't have to put so much
[2:08:15] pressure on ourselves to be impressive.
[2:08:17] In fact, the really impressive people I
[2:08:19] I don't know, I haven't met that many
[2:08:20] billionaires, but the ones I've met,
[2:08:22] like most of them are quite humble and
[2:08:24] they're quite like they they downplay
[2:08:27] how successful they are because they've
[2:08:28] already made it. And so I think if we
[2:08:30] all just put less pressure on ourselves
[2:08:31] to just connect, that would be easier.
[2:08:34] >> It does really track. I was thinking
[2:08:35] about the people in my life that have
[2:08:36] aura and they're not the people that
[2:08:37] have are the most successful, the most
[2:08:39] accomplished. They are they are the ones
[2:08:41] that you would most like to spend time
[2:08:43] with. Yeah.
[2:08:44] >> For whatever reason. Yeah.
[2:08:45] >> Yeah. They're easy. And and by the way,
[2:08:46] it's back and forth. Like you can be
[2:08:47] introverted and and or extroverted. You
[2:08:50] don't have like people I think think
[2:08:51] that master conversationalists are
[2:08:52] extroverted. Actually, that's not
[2:08:54] usually the case. Sometimes extroverts
[2:08:56] fall into their own traps with
[2:08:57] conversational narcissism. Uh amberverts
[2:08:59] introverts do really well. But one of
[2:09:00] the other sort of definitions of aura is
[2:09:02] the person who I don't know they just
[2:09:05] seem to take up more space. They they
[2:09:07] seem to speak slower and be you kind of
[2:09:10] like see them walk across a room.
[2:09:13] >> What is that? And like how are they
[2:09:14] cultivating that like that kind of aura?
[2:09:17] >> I think there's I this has been my
[2:09:18] guess. I have also thought about this
[2:09:20] when someone walks into a room and
[2:09:21] you're just like
[2:09:22] >> Michelle Obama was like that.
[2:09:24] >> Oh I've never met her.
[2:09:26] But I can only imagine
[2:09:28] >> Tony Robbins as well.
[2:09:30] >> He had serious
[2:09:33] >> winner.
[2:09:35] I think when certain people walk into a
[2:09:37] room and they have claimed their space,
[2:09:40] I think it's internal and external. I
[2:09:41] think physically and this has been
[2:09:42] studied. They are t physically taking up
[2:09:45] more space whether they're short or tall
[2:09:47] in that winners they have more space
[2:09:49] between their ears and their shoulders.
[2:09:51] They take up more space between their
[2:09:52] torso and their arms. they literally
[2:09:54] claim more space physically, right? So,
[2:09:56] if I were to like do the entire
[2:09:57] interview, and I've seen people do
[2:09:58] interviews in your chair where they're
[2:10:00] taking up as little space as possible,
[2:10:02] you you you aren't as drawn to this,
[2:10:05] right? And so, I think that physical
[2:10:07] there's a physical taking up space and
[2:10:08] they're micro movements. Like I it's not
[2:10:10] walking in like with my arms up. It's
[2:10:12] it's micro, right? It's like a a slight
[2:10:14] down of the shoulder. It's a slight up
[2:10:16] of the head. And when I do that, it
[2:10:17] affects everything about me. Like, it
[2:10:19] affects my vocal tone. One thing that I
[2:10:21] think about a lot is maximum resonance
[2:10:23] point. Maximum resonance point is a a
[2:10:27] part of your voice that is the lowest
[2:10:30] end of your natural range that signifies
[2:10:33] pride that signifies calm. So for
[2:10:36] example, when I'm afraid or or a little
[2:10:38] bit nervous, like I'll tend to go a
[2:10:39] little bit higher in my vocal range. And
[2:10:41] if I were to do the entire presentation
[2:10:43] in this tone of voice or I was talking
[2:10:45] to this, it would be horrible, right?
[2:10:46] You would not want to listen to it. And
[2:10:47] that's because I'm tightening my vocal
[2:10:48] cords. And when someone's very anxious,
[2:10:50] they tighten their shoulders, they
[2:10:51] tighten their neck, they tighten their
[2:10:53] chin. It's more of a loser feeling,
[2:10:55] right?
[2:10:55] >> And you're also speaking a little bit
[2:10:56] faster then.
[2:10:57] >> Oh, I Oh, interesting. I I didn't even
[2:10:59] notice it, but yes, I think I was Yeah.
[2:11:01] rushing. Rushing. Yeah. And I had less
[2:11:03] breath. Like
[2:11:04] >> I'm actually out of breath after doing
[2:11:05] that. So, when we don't have breath,
[2:11:07] we're speaking too quickly. My vocal
[2:11:09] cords are tense. You can hear it and
[2:11:11] they're taking up less even vocal space,
[2:11:13] right?
[2:11:14] >> Winners use this maximum resonance
[2:11:16] point. So, we can actually try it if you
[2:11:17] want to. So, I want you at the very top
[2:11:19] of your going to take in a deep breath
[2:11:20] and say hello at the top of your breath.
[2:11:21] So, it sounds like this. Hello.
[2:11:24] >> Okay. I'm a little bit sick, hence why
[2:11:26] my voice might sound a bit different
[2:11:26] today. So, I'm a little bit deeper than
[2:11:28] normal, but um [clears throat and gasps]
[2:11:30] >> hello.
[2:11:31] >> Horrible.
[2:11:32] >> Yeah, that was embarrassing.
[2:11:34] >> Horrible.
[2:11:34] >> Yeah.
[2:11:35] >> Right. But I hear I listen in on Zoom
[2:11:37] calls and I hear people that's their
[2:11:39] very first word. Like they literally
[2:11:43] hold their breath and they say, "Good
[2:11:44] morning."
[2:11:44] >> Hello.
[2:11:45] >> Hello everyone. Hi. Who? You are
[2:11:48] actually giving away your vocal
[2:11:49] competence because I'm so far away from
[2:11:51] my maximum resonance point. My maximum
[2:11:52] resonance point is when I
[2:11:54] >> speak on the outreath. So my vocal cords
[2:11:57] are relaxed. So now listen to the
[2:11:58] difference. So here's the high. Hello
[2:12:00] versus hello. Both me, but you're going
[2:12:04] to treat me totally differently. So now
[2:12:05] take a deep breath and say hello on the
[2:12:06] outreath.
[2:12:08] >> Hello.
[2:12:09] >> Right now that sounds more like you cuz
[2:12:11] you usually use your maximum resonance,
[2:12:13] [laughter] right? You're very good at
[2:12:15] that. And I've noticed that in work
[2:12:17] culture, people who use their maximum
[2:12:19] resonance point, they are listened to
[2:12:21] more. They are easy to talk to because
[2:12:23] we want to listen to them. They take up
[2:12:26] more aura, more riz because we're like,
[2:12:28] ah, [gasps]
[2:12:28] cuz we can hear their confidence. We can
[2:12:31] hear their relaxation. And so vocal cues
[2:12:33] are such an important aspect of
[2:12:35] charisma. You know, all these questions
[2:12:37] are beautiful, but how you say your
[2:12:39] words is just as important as what you
[2:12:41] say. If I were to ask, so uh like what's
[2:12:45] your pursue passion project? I guess
[2:12:48] [laughter]
[2:12:49] I can do it.
[2:12:52] This stuff is so terrible. You know,
[2:12:54] like my lack of vocal care, you
[2:12:58] immediately hear and it tunes you out,
[2:13:00] right? So I can if I don't have good
[2:13:02] intention here, it does leak out. That's
[2:13:04] why earlier when you asked me like,
[2:13:05] "Does intention matter?" I said, "If you
[2:13:07] have intention to care and try, it's
[2:13:09] going to matter. But if you don't, if
[2:13:11] you're not trying, people will hear it.
[2:13:13] And a lot of that is voice. And I think
[2:13:15] that very charismatic people, they're
[2:13:16] imbuing their voice with that winning
[2:13:19] calm confidence. And we want to catch
[2:13:21] it.
[2:13:22] >> What about the rest of me? So, we've
[2:13:24] talked about some of the specific
[2:13:25] conversational questions at the three
[2:13:26] stages. We've talked about vocal tone.
[2:13:28] Is there any other part of being a great
[2:13:30] conversationalist? And I'm thinking now
[2:13:32] about I guess we talked about hands and
[2:13:34] taking up space, but even eye contact. I
[2:13:37] think about this a lot. It takes a lot
[2:13:38] of dare I say confidence to for me to
[2:13:42] like look you in the eyes like this
[2:13:43] Vanessa and ask you a question.
[2:13:45] >> That is because when we are making eye
[2:13:47] contact chemically we're producing
[2:13:49] oxytocin which is great for connection
[2:13:51] but also you are not able to process as
[2:13:54] much. The reason why eye contact is
[2:13:56] quite complicated and I think sometimes
[2:13:58] the clips on social media have I don't
[2:14:01] like clips very much because it takes
[2:14:02] out the nuance. eye contact. Yes,
[2:14:05] universally it's good when we have
[2:14:07] oxytocin, but also I cannot do complex
[2:14:09] thinking when I'm doing this with you,
[2:14:11] right? Like when I'm trying to remember
[2:14:13] something, I immediately look away. If
[2:14:14] you were to ask me a complex mouth
[2:14:16] problem, I look away. And so in
[2:14:18] conversation, we actually do not want
[2:14:19] 100% eye contact. We don't even want 70%
[2:14:22] eye contact. 60 70% eye contact is is
[2:14:24] more ideal in Western cultures. But if
[2:14:26] someone is deep thinking or they are
[2:14:28] social processing, you actually do want
[2:14:31] less eye contact because they're they're
[2:14:32] trying to access their memories. If I'm
[2:14:34] doing this, I'm purely focused on the
[2:14:36] connection. But we're in an interview. I
[2:14:38] want to what does my work say? What was
[2:14:39] the research? What was the number? And
[2:14:41] so that is why it can be sometimes
[2:14:42] uncomfortable is because it's not
[2:14:44] allowing your brain to think. It's just
[2:14:46] about connection.
[2:14:47] >> But when you're delivering like I
[2:14:48] understand the deliberation, you look
[2:14:49] away when you deliver. I do that like
[2:14:50] I'm doing right now. But then when I
[2:14:52] deliver the point,
[2:14:53] >> oh yeah,
[2:14:53] >> I come back. Is that
[2:14:55] >> you know why? Because one, yes, you're
[2:14:56] trying to connect. But two, when you are
[2:14:58] delivering, you want to watch my face to
[2:15:00] see, do I believe you?
[2:15:02] >> Am I raising my eyebrows? Am I showing
[2:15:05] you disgust? Am I like, I don't believe
[2:15:07] it. I harden my lower lid. So, the
[2:15:10] reason why we'll often like we're
[2:15:11] processing, we're processing, and then
[2:15:12] we're delivering is because two things
[2:15:14] are happening at once. We're trying to
[2:15:16] connect. I want you to hear my point and
[2:15:17] feel it with oxytocin, but also I want
[2:15:19] to see, do you believe me or are you
[2:15:22] raising your eyebrows?
[2:15:23] >> Right? I'm making more eye contact with
[2:15:26] you because I'm trying to see where your
[2:15:28] interest lies, right? Whereas you're
[2:15:30] looking at your iPad because you're
[2:15:31] trying to get to the next question. You
[2:15:32] want to make sure that we're covering
[2:15:33] everything. That's why this is not
[2:15:34] natural. This doesn't usually happen
[2:15:36] natural conversation. But it's also when
[2:15:39] you're in conversation,
[2:15:41] you're better off making eye contact in
[2:15:43] the first few seconds of an interaction.
[2:15:45] So, right when you're on that greeting,
[2:15:46] oh, it's so good to see you hopping on
[2:15:48] video or in person cuz you're giving
[2:15:50] that burst of oxytocin. But then you're
[2:15:52] okay to look away. You're okay to
[2:15:54] process. You might want to make your eye
[2:15:56] contact most when you're trying to sus
[2:15:58] out how is this person receiving this.
[2:16:00] >> Mhm.
[2:16:01] >> That also makes you easy to talk to
[2:16:02] because if I notice that you're lighting
[2:16:04] up about something, I can pivot more
[2:16:06] into that. If I notice you're like,
[2:16:08] "That's horrible." I want to be easy to
[2:16:10] talk to by pivoting away from it.
[2:16:11] >> And when you're talking to me, what is
[2:16:14] the best way to be a good listener? M.
[2:16:18] So,
[2:16:18] >> cuz some people go like they interrupt.
[2:16:19] They go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[2:16:21] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And then you've
[2:16:22] got other people who will like nod and
[2:16:24] like really sort of encourage and
[2:16:26] cheerlead when you're talking and then
[2:16:27] you'll have the like some people that
[2:16:29] they they kind of they don't know
[2:16:30] they're doing it, but they start to like
[2:16:32] scowl at you.
[2:16:33] >> I know. I know. Yes. Yes. That really
[2:16:35] bothers me.
[2:16:36] >> But it it I I struggle with that a
[2:16:38] little bit just personally cuz I'm a
[2:16:39] people pleaser. So, when someone's like
[2:16:41] I actually have a friend who defaults to
[2:16:43] the discuss microp expression. He
[2:16:44] doesn't even realize he's doing it. It's
[2:16:45] a punctuator. A facial punctuator is a a
[2:16:48] non-verbal habit. It doesn't actually
[2:16:50] mean anything emotionally. It's just how
[2:16:51] they are at rest. I've had to tell
[2:16:53] myself he doesn't actually feel
[2:16:54] disgusted. So, you're talking about
[2:16:56] warmth. All the listening cues are about
[2:16:59] warmth. So, listening cues are nodding,
[2:17:02] triple nod. Uh the in India, Bulgaria,
[2:17:04] and Pakistan, nodding is a little bit
[2:17:06] different. So, I always try to make that
[2:17:07] note. A head tilt is a universal warmth
[2:17:10] signal because we're exposing our ear up
[2:17:11] to the sky. Um a lean
[2:17:14] >> is uh warm and competent. both actually
[2:17:16] cuz I'm trying to literally get closer
[2:17:17] to you to understand more deeply. A
[2:17:19] competent cue where you're listening is
[2:17:21] a lower lid flex. So if I flex my lower
[2:17:23] lids at you, this is a universal
[2:17:25] response. When we flex our lower lids,
[2:17:27] we're trying to see something better.
[2:17:28] Right? If I say, "Do you see that over
[2:17:29] there?" We harden our lower lids. What
[2:17:31] we're doing biologically is we're
[2:17:33] hooding our eyes to to block the light
[2:17:36] so I can see more detail. So when you're
[2:17:38] speaking and someone goes,
[2:17:41] they are trying to deeply understand
[2:17:43] you. It is not positive or negative. It
[2:17:45] is a cue of intense focus. Take note.
[2:17:49] >> Mhm.
[2:17:49] >> Because whatever you just said has
[2:17:51] triggered something in their brain that
[2:17:53] they're going what?
[2:17:55] >> Mhm.
[2:17:56] >> Right. So when I'm giving, you know, a
[2:17:58] presentation to a seauite and I have a
[2:17:59] couple or or you know, investors or
[2:18:01] important people and I see someone do a
[2:18:04] lower lid flex, I have a choice. I can
[2:18:06] take note of what I just said and
[2:18:08] bookmark it or I can stop and do dynamic
[2:18:11] presenting. We haven't even talked about
[2:18:13] presenting but I can sw this make sense
[2:18:16] >> are we good any questions here you know
[2:18:18] let me give you another example of this
[2:18:20] so you can also look for these cues
[2:18:21] which also makes you a pleasure to
[2:18:22] listen to because I am so deeply
[2:18:24] listening that I'm trying to respond to
[2:18:26] your emotional reaction to what I'm
[2:18:28] saying
[2:18:28] >> I think that is a really we sort of
[2:18:30] touched on that earlier but I think it's
[2:18:31] a really unappreciated part of being a
[2:18:33] good conversationalist is
[2:18:35] being dynamic
[2:18:37] >> based on the cues you're getting back.
[2:18:38] >> Yes. Yes. Actually, please let's double
[2:18:41] click on this for a second because I
[2:18:42] think
[2:18:44] my planners my planners who are watching
[2:18:46] are like, "Okay, I got a plan, Vanessa.
[2:18:48] I got it. I got my my questions."
[2:18:52] What I don't want you to do is have the
[2:18:54] plan, ask the question, and then check
[2:18:56] off to the next one.
[2:18:57] >> Mhm.
[2:18:57] >> Right. The whole point of these is
[2:18:59] actually to be quite dynamic. It might
[2:19:01] be that you ask, "What's your personal
[2:19:04] passion project?" And you spend hours
[2:19:06] talking about that. What a pleasure.
[2:19:08] What a delight.
[2:19:09] That means you're being dynamic in that
[2:19:11] wa like you both lit up on it. You can
[2:19:13] go there. You can dive deep. So I want
[2:19:15] you to have a plan, but I also want you
[2:19:17] to be dynamic with it. Like both can be
[2:19:19] true.
[2:19:19] >> Vanessa, of all the things that we have
[2:19:21] discussed, is there anything we haven't
[2:19:23] talked about that we should have talked
[2:19:24] about that appears within your new book,
[2:19:27] Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone
[2:19:29] and Make Every Interaction Count.
[2:19:32] >> There is one thing that we didn't get to
[2:19:34] touch on that I think can help you
[2:19:36] prepare for good conversation. just very
[2:19:38] practically which is you are going to be
[2:19:40] asked boring questions. We talked about
[2:19:42] this earlier. I want you to if you are
[2:19:45] willing write down the questions you are
[2:19:47] asked the most often. Everyone kind of
[2:19:50] gets similar questions depending on
[2:19:52] their job, their industry, where they
[2:19:54] are in the world. What are the questions
[2:19:56] you're asked most often? And how can you
[2:19:58] do better? And then think of what are
[2:20:01] gifts to the other person. Not just
[2:20:04] interesting for you, right? Like not
[2:20:05] just like, oh well, you know, an
[2:20:07] interesting fact about me, but like what
[2:20:09] is a story or an anecdote or an answer
[2:20:12] that's going to let the other person be
[2:20:13] like, oh, me too, or really? Or what got
[2:20:17] you into that? Or why did you do that?
[2:20:19] Because then you're actually your answer
[2:20:21] is doing two things. It's interesting,
[2:20:24] but it's also conversationally generous.
[2:20:26] >> You're not creating a [clears throat]
[2:20:26] dead end for yourself.
[2:20:27] >> And this is so true because there is a
[2:20:29] most interesting thing about everybody.
[2:20:30] And that most interesting thing will be
[2:20:32] get the same set of questions. Yes,
[2:20:34] >> there's someone that I know and um she
[2:20:37] has a very interesting career, but in
[2:20:38] one part of her career, she went to
[2:20:39] Bible school for a couple of years and
[2:20:41] I've never met anybody that went to
[2:20:42] Bible school for three years. So, I
[2:20:44] imagine this person always gets asked
[2:20:45] about Bible school for 3 years like like
[2:20:47] because everybody wants to know
[2:20:48] >> three years of her life. Yeah. Yeah.
[2:20:49] Yeah. So, so I remember I was just
[2:20:51] thinking then like that's the question
[2:20:52] that everybody when you introduce it,
[2:20:53] they were like Bible school.
[2:20:55] >> Yeah. Or and I I give this example in
[2:20:58] the book is my friend Jason, he can't
[2:21:01] smell or taste.
[2:21:02] >> Mhm. [clears throat] and he's always at
[2:21:03] dinners with people. That's all he does
[2:21:04] all the time. He's the editor of
[2:21:05] Entrepreneur magazine. And so he is
[2:21:07] always at dinners. And he brings up on
[2:21:09] purpose. People say, "What are you
[2:21:10] ordering?" People ask about food all the
[2:21:12] time. And he goes, "Well, actually, I
[2:21:13] have no I have no sense of taste or
[2:21:14] smell. So what's your favorite thing?
[2:21:15] What should I taste? If I could taste
[2:21:16] something, what would you have me
[2:21:17] taste?" And it produces incredible
[2:21:20] conversations. So much so that I was
[2:21:21] talking to my friend Nicole Lapen. She
[2:21:23] goes, "I know Jason." And she began to
[2:21:26] tell me about his interesting stories.
[2:21:28] >> She remembered his interestingness from
[2:21:30] that answer. So even like where are your
[2:21:32] settings? Are you doing coffee? Is there
[2:21:34] interesting coffee anecdotes? Are you
[2:21:35] always at meals? Are you right? So you
[2:21:37] can also set yourself up and them up for
[2:21:39] success with those interesting answers.
[2:21:41] >> So have a script for the questions that
[2:21:42] you get asked the most that offer gifts
[2:21:44] to those that are on the receiving end
[2:21:46] of that answer.
[2:21:47] >> Yeah. And the last thing I would say is
[2:21:49] this is a plan. And the entire goal of
[2:21:52] this is for you to feel more in control,
[2:21:55] for you to feel more confident. You
[2:21:57] know, I think as someone who wasn't
[2:21:58] confident for a long time and who had
[2:22:01] very awkward conversations for a long
[2:22:02] time, just knowing that I had a good
[2:22:05] intent helped me a lot. So, this is the
[2:22:08] plan. But also, feel free to totally
[2:22:10] deviate from the plan. That when you're
[2:22:12] in the moment, if you're feeling excited
[2:22:15] and and interested and engaged, go with
[2:22:18] it. If you're feeling I don't like this
[2:22:20] person, I don't feel this person, we are
[2:22:21] off, you can leave the conversation.
[2:22:24] >> Who did you write this book for,
[2:22:25] Vanessa? So if they're, you know, if
[2:22:27] they've gotten to this stage in the
[2:22:28] conversation and they're thinking,
[2:22:29] should I get that book or not? Who is it
[2:22:31] for?
[2:22:32] >> This is for people who want to stop
[2:22:36] dreading small talk. Dread is was a real
[2:22:39] motivation for me because so many of my
[2:22:41] students would say, "Oh, I have to go to
[2:22:42] the networking event. I I'm dreading
[2:22:45] talking to my boss. I hate those first
[2:22:47] five minutes of my team call. Oh, I
[2:22:49] don't know what to talk about on a
[2:22:49] date." And first dates are horrible.
[2:22:51] First dates can be fun if you have a
[2:22:53] conversational plan. Even if it's not
[2:22:55] your person, they can still be fun.
[2:22:57] Conversation can be not awkward. It can
[2:22:58] be great at the start of a meeting if
[2:23:00] you know how to do it. And so I would
[2:23:01] like to get rid of the dread in your
[2:23:02] life. I would like to get rid of the
[2:23:04] awkwardness in your life because and the
[2:23:06] deeper meaning is we are in a loneliness
[2:23:08] epidemic. And I think if we don't
[2:23:10] remember how good the joy of
[2:23:12] conversation is, we won't do it. And so
[2:23:15] if I can take away the dread of
[2:23:16] conversation and give you beautiful
[2:23:18] conversation with your person or not,
[2:23:20] you're going to feel less lonely.
[2:23:21] >> Kind of sounds like it's for all of us.
[2:23:23] I think it's for all of us.
[2:23:25] >> What a wonderful book and what a
[2:23:26] perfectly timed book at a time when AI
[2:23:29] and computers are, you know, robbing us
[2:23:32] of the joy of human conversation. And I
[2:23:34] think increasingly kids are going to
[2:23:35] struggle with conversations. I mean,
[2:23:36] people are saying this already. Teachers
[2:23:38] say to me that, you know, they see their
[2:23:39] kids in class and they don't know the
[2:23:41] basic skills of how to relate to each
[2:23:42] other through conversation. So, a great
[2:23:44] book I think for
[2:23:45] >> It was meant to be now. It was meant to
[2:23:47] be now.
[2:23:47] >> It was meant to be. It took you a long
[2:23:48] time, right?
[2:23:49] >> Yeah.
[2:23:49] >> Many years. 20 years. Wow. Well, I'm
[2:23:52] glad it's here. Conversation: How to
[2:23:54] connect with anyone and make every
[2:23:56] interaction count. And I'm going to link
[2:23:58] it below if anyone wants to go and buy
[2:24:00] it right now.
[2:24:01] >> Thank you.
[2:24:01] >> What a wonderful book, Vanessa.
[2:24:03] Congratulations.
[2:24:03] >> Oh my goodness. Thank you. Thank you.
[2:24:04] Thank you. It's finally here. Thank you
[2:24:06] for helping me bring it into the world.
[2:24:08] >> It's okay. You You deserve everything.
[2:24:10] You're such a phenom. [laughter]
[2:24:12] >> My gosh, I hardly I'm obsessed with
[2:24:15] people. That's it.
[2:24:16] >> We have a closing tradition where the
[2:24:18] last guest leaves a question for the
[2:24:19] next guest, not knowing who they're
[2:24:20] leaving it for. And the question left
[2:24:22] for you is, do you feel like there are
[2:24:26] things you sacrificed in your personal
[2:24:29] life to build your success that you
[2:24:32] regret and wish you could now get back?
[2:24:36] >> Yes. Um, you know, I briefly mentioned
[2:24:39] that I moved [gasps] and I moved to be
[2:24:42] closer to family. Um, and that was
[2:24:45] because I think I sacrificed friendship
[2:24:48] and family relationship in the hustle.
[2:24:52] You know, we moved to Austin for for
[2:24:54] work. I moved to Austin for work and I
[2:24:56] left my family and I I don't regret
[2:25:00] Austin cuz I had some great growth
[2:25:01] there, but I regret being away from my
[2:25:04] family when my children were very very
[2:25:05] little. It was really hard to have
[2:25:07] babies without my mom, without my
[2:25:09] sister. And so I wish I could have
[2:25:12] figured that out a little bit
[2:25:13] differently, but I'm here now.
[2:25:17] >> And what is it you wish you could get
[2:25:18] back?
[2:25:20] >> I felt very alone as a new mom, and I
[2:25:24] don't think that helped me or my
[2:25:26] children. I wish I could get back at
[2:25:28] time to feel more communal. You know,
[2:25:30] having a baby is such a beautiful thing
[2:25:32] for family and friends. And it was it
[2:25:34] was very lonely cuz I just didn't have a
[2:25:36] lot of people around me.
[2:25:38] >> And now you're here.
[2:25:39] >> I know. by the beach in LA.
[2:25:41] >> I'm back. My sister is at my house right
[2:25:43] now.
[2:25:43] >> Oh, really?
[2:25:44] >> With my kids. Yes.
[2:25:45] >> It's good to have you in town.
[2:25:47] >> I'm so excited. And I will come maybe.
[2:25:50] [laughter]
[2:25:51] >> I don't believe you. You don't have to
[2:25:53] say it. You don't have to say it. I'm
[2:25:54] not going to invite you to anything.
[2:25:55] [laughter]
[2:25:56] >> Conversation, how to connect with anyone
[2:25:58] and make every interaction count. Please
[2:25:59] do go buy this book. Very important to
[2:26:01] Vanessa and also very important to me by
[2:26:03] way of that. And it's a brilliant,
[2:26:04] brilliant book. One I think that we all
[2:26:05] need. Vanessa, thank you. We're done.
[2:26:06] >> Thank you.
[2:26:07] >> Thanks. YouTube have this new crazy
[2:26:09] algorithm where they know exactly what
[2:26:11] video you would like to watch next based
[2:26:13] on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
[2:26:16] And the algorithm says that this video
[2:26:19] is the perfect video for you. It's
[2:26:21] different for everybody looking right
[2:26:22] now. Check this video out and I bet you
[2:26:24] you might love