7 Small Shifts to ReclaimYour Capacity for Joy

Sep 10, 2026

8 min read

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You don't need your life to be perfect, your circumstances to align, or all your problems to vanish before joy becomes available to you. This is the quiet revolution at the heart of Dr. Kelly McGonigal's research into what she calls "the science of joy"—and it arrives as both permission and practical instruction. Joy, she explains, is not the emotional jackpot you win when everything goes right. It's the biological lift you feel when your heart lightens, when you breathe more easily, when something good happens and you immediately know it matters. It's the opposite of that punch-to-the-stomach feeling of bad news. And more importantly, it's accessible to you right now, even as you navigate the hard parts of being alive.

What Joy Actually Does for Your Brain and Body

McGonigal's core hope in teaching about joy is deceptively simple: that you wake up wanting to be alive. Not someday, when circumstances improve, but tomorrow morning and the morning after that. That you feel you have things to look forward to, that what you do matters, and that even in the face of genuine challenges, you can laugh, feel close to others, and do things that make life better. This isn't naïveté about suffering—it's an antidote to a particular kind of despair that often goes unnamed.

There are two forms of discouragement people rarely discuss openly. The first is looking outward at a chaotic world and feeling despair about collective conditions. But the second—the one McGonigal illuminates—is quieter and more isolating: wondering alone at night whether you matter, whether what you do makes a difference, whether anyone knows you're here. Joy addresses both by restoring what she calls "existential courage"—the capacity to create a life of meaning even when circumstances are uncertain, and to recognize what's good not just in your external life but in yourself.

When McGonigal asks thousands of people across different cultures what brought them joy in the last 24 hours, the answers fall into remarkably consistent categories. Understanding these categories is itself illuminating, because it shows that joy isn't rare or dependent on lottery-winning luck. Joy arrives through connection, through recognizing your own worth, through noticing beauty, and through moments of genuine pleasure and presence.

Where Joy Actually Comes From: Four Categories

The first and perhaps most powerful source of joy is feeling connected or close to someone. A moment of laughter shared with another person is, as McGonigal notes, a biological reality—in that instant, you are genuinely connected. The body doesn't distinguish between "small" laughter and "big" laughter. Any laugh that brings you close to another person lights up your nervous system.

The second category is doing something that makes you feel good about who you are. This might be making progress on a goal, receiving good news, finally doing something you've been putting off, or acting in alignment with your values. It can also be as simple as helping someone and having that help land, or receiving acknowledgment that you made things better. Your sense of your own worthiness becomes a source of joy.

The third category—one that McGonigal finds repeated across cultures with striking consistency—is noticing something wonderful or beautiful. A bird singing. A shaft of light. A moment in nature. In these moments, people report feeling connected to the good in life itself, not just to their personal circumstances.

The fourth is the joy of presence: being in an activity you love, with a person you love, or engaged with something that captures your attention so fully that you're entirely in the moment. You're not thinking about what comes next or what you should be doing. You're doing it.

The Body as a Pharmacy of Hope Molecules

One of McGonigal's most striking insights is biological and immediate: your muscles are an internal pharmacy, and movement is the way you access it. When you move—and this includes a walk with your dog, dancing in your kitchen, or any physical activity that engages your body—your muscles release what she calls "hope molecules." These are the neurochemicals that shift your physiology and your mood.

The research is clear: movement triggers the release of endorphins and endocannabinoids, your body's own mood-elevating compounds. But McGonigal emphasizes that you don't need to "crush a workout" to access this resource. A 10-minute walk counts. A few minutes of dancing counts. Your body doesn't distinguish between the heroic and the humble when it comes to the chemistry of hope.

This matters because when you're struggling or stuck—when your motivation is low and your nervous system is tight—the idea of a major workout can feel impossible. But the entry point is much lower. You can practice this shift on your next walk, in your kitchen between tasks, or while moving with someone you love.

How to Make Stress Work for You Instead of Against You

McGonigal's work also addresses a counterintuitive truth: the way you interpret stress shapes its effect on your body. You can reframe stress not as a threat but as information that something you care about is at stake. This is not about denying that hard things are hard. It's about recognizing that stress hormones, in healthy doses, sharpen your attention and mobilize your resources. When you understand stress as a tool rather than an enemy, your body responds differently. Your cardiovascular system becomes more efficient. Your mind becomes clearer.

The research on this is compelling: people who view stress as enhancing rather than debilitating show better health outcomes and greater resilience. It's a small shift in interpretation, but the biological consequences are significant.

Three Research-Backed Sources of Hope When You Need a Lift

McGonigal identifies three concrete, science-backed sources of hope that you can access when you feel depleted or discouraged. The first is remembering moments when you've handled difficult things before. Your own history is evidence of your capacity. The second is recognizing that other people care about you and are there for you—not in some abstract way, but in actual moments where you feel their presence or receive their support. The third is noticing that you have agency, that you can make choices and take actions that matter, even in small ways.

These aren't abstract or motivational platitudes. They're grounded in how your brain constructs meaning and resilience. When you can access any one of these—a memory of your own strength, the presence of someone who matters, or a choice you've made that aligns with your values—you activate your capacity to move forward.

Training Your Attention to Notice More Good

One of the simplest and most transformative practices McGonigal teaches is attention training. Your brain is wired to notice threat and problem—this kept our ancestors alive. But in modern life, this attentional bias can make you miss what's actually good. You can deliberately practice noticing: the quality of light, the kindness of a stranger, the taste of your coffee, the person across from you. This isn't toxic positivity or forced optimism. It's giving your brain equal time to register what's working, what's beautiful, what's kind.

This practice is especially powerful when done with others. When you sit with someone and both pay attention to what you notice—together—you're not only training your own attention. You're building connection and a shared sense of what's good in the world. You become co-creators of your own joy.

A Meaningful Memory as a Source of Present Courage

McGonigal teaches a specific practice: take a meaningful memory and recognize it not just as something that happened to you, but as evidence of who you are. A time you were brave, a time someone showed up for you, a time you made something better. Hold that memory and ask yourself: what does this memory make possible for me now? What courage or strength can I access from this? The memory becomes a resource for the present moment, not just nostalgia.

Where to go from here

None of these shifts requires waiting for external circumstances to change. You can practice movement today. You can reach out to someone and share a laugh. You can notice one beautiful thing. You can remember a time you were capable and let that shape how you approach what's in front of you. The invitation is not to feel joy instead of your challenges, but alongside them. To recognize that your full humanity—your capacity to laugh, to connect, to notice beauty, to act with purpose—is available even when life is hard. Especially when life is hard.

Transcript

[0:00] Today on the Mel Robbins podcast,

[0:02] [music] how to feel like yourself again,

[0:05] get your spark back and bring more joy

[0:08] into your everyday [music] life with

[0:10] worldrenowned expert on stress,

[0:13] resilience, and joy, Stanford

[0:15] University's Dr. Kelly Mcdonal.

[0:23] Dr. Kelly McGonagal, welcome to the Mel

[0:26] Robbins Podcast.

[0:27] >> Thank you. It's great to be here. I'd

[0:28] love for you to start by just setting

[0:30] the record straight about what we're

[0:33] going to talk about and how the person

[0:34] who's here with us is going to feel when

[0:36] they're done and how their life might

[0:38] change. Because you hear the word joy

[0:39] and you think, "Oh my gosh, is this a

[0:41] to-do list for being happy?"

[0:42] >> Yeah.

[0:43] >> But what are we going to talk about

[0:44] based on your research about how to feel

[0:46] like yourself again and to use this

[0:49] science of joy to do that? My core hope

[0:51] is that when you wake up in the morning,

[0:54] you want to be alive. You're happy to be

[0:56] alive. You feel like you have things to

[0:59] look forward to. You know that what you

[1:02] do matters. That who you are matters.

[1:06] That your existence in the world is a

[1:08] good thing. And that no matter what

[1:11] challenges you're facing, that you can

[1:15] handle them. And even in those

[1:18] challenges, it's possible to laugh. It's

[1:21] possible to feel close to others. It's

[1:24] [snorts] possible to have things to look

[1:26] forward to. It's possible to do things

[1:28] every day that make life better for

[1:31] yourself or that make the world better.

[1:33] Um, psychologists sometimes use this

[1:35] term existential courage. And because

[1:36] that's what I really hope comes out of

[1:38] this conversation is that you feel more

[1:41] courageous to create a life of meaning

[1:45] and a stronger capacity to appreciate

[1:48] not just what's good in your life but

[1:50] also what's good in you

[1:52] >> and what's good in others and what's

[1:55] good in the world.

[1:56] My favorite thing that you just said was

[1:59] this ability to appreciate not just

[2:02] what's good in your life, but what's

[2:05] good in you. Yeah. Can you expand on

[2:09] that? I think like everything that I do,

[2:12] I'm trying to be an antidote to despair.

[2:14] And there's a particular type of despair

[2:16] that people are comfortable talking

[2:17] about, which is looking out at the world

[2:19] and feeling like the world is falling

[2:21] apart. there's so much, you know, wrong

[2:24] with the state of the world and other

[2:26] people are so disappointing. And I think

[2:28] people have a harder time uh admitting

[2:31] or recognizing sometimes we wonder

[2:35] what's good about us, whether what we do

[2:38] makes a difference, if our existence,

[2:40] you know, has a reason, if

[2:43] if other people care or even know that

[2:46] we're here. And I think that when we are

[2:49] better able to recognize and trust the

[2:53] better parts of ourselves or even just

[2:54] the parts about ourselves that bring us

[2:56] joy and we're more comfortable sharing

[2:58] that with the world, it's a really it's

[3:00] a brave act and it's a transformative

[3:02] act.

[3:04] I

[3:06] had this moment. Oprah calls it a light

[3:09] bulb aha moment when you were talking

[3:11] because I've never

[3:13] heard anybody

[3:15] so simply and profoundly

[3:19] explain that there are two types of

[3:22] despair and discouragement

[3:24] that you experience in life. I love that

[3:28] you have just aimed our focus at

[3:30] something that's hard to talk about,

[3:32] which is the despair quietly and the

[3:35] discouragement that we feel often alone

[3:40] as we wonder as we lie awake at night.

[3:42] And I suppose that where we're going is,

[3:44] and I know where we're going because

[3:46] I've read your next blockbuster

[3:48] bestseller and I love your research and

[3:50] your work is that you're going to shine

[3:51] a light on the interior life that you

[3:53] have. Dr. McDonald, what is the

[3:56] definition of joy?

[3:58] >> Let me start by something that is very

[4:00] easy for most people to understand. I'm

[4:01] going to give you the opposite of joy

[4:02] first.

[4:03] >> Okay,

[4:03] >> I've learned through experience to walk

[4:05] my way into joy. So, imagine, you know,

[4:09] the feeling when you get bad news or

[4:11] something goes wrong or someone says

[4:12] something that hurts you and immediately

[4:14] it's like a punch to the stomach. Your

[4:17] heart sinks. You feel heavier. You feel

[4:20] more pessimistic. you just immediately

[4:23] feel worse about yourself or worse about

[4:25] life and it often happens in a flash but

[4:28] it can linger. It has this residue. So

[4:30] joy is the opposite of that. It's when

[4:33] something goes right or you notice

[4:34] something wonderful or something good

[4:36] happens or someone says something nice

[4:39] and you immediately your heart lifts.

[4:42] You feel lighter. Your your gut is

[4:45] telling you this is a moment that

[4:47] matters. You feel like you can breathe.

[4:49] And no matter how small small or big the

[4:52] moment is, you have a more positive

[4:54] outlook. You feel better about yourself

[4:56] and better about life. That's joy. And

[4:59] you know, I've asked um thousands of

[5:00] people to tell me like what's something

[5:01] that brought you joy in the last 24

[5:04] hours. And also people have published

[5:05] research from all over the world. It's

[5:08] so consistent what brings people joy.

[5:10] And I think sometimes knowing what the

[5:12] categories are also helps people

[5:14] understand what I'm talking about.

[5:15] >> Yeah. What are the categories? Number

[5:17] one is feeling connected or close to

[5:19] someone. And the one of the easiest

[5:22] examples of that is people will tell me

[5:24] about a moment when they laughed with

[5:25] someone. And that just in that moment

[5:28] it's a biological reality. You are

[5:30] connected. You feel close to someone. Uh

[5:32] the number two is when you do something

[5:36] that makes you feel good about yourself

[5:39] and who you are. It could be that you

[5:41] made progress on a goal and you got good

[5:43] news. Or it could be that you did

[5:45] something that you've been putting off

[5:46] or it could be you did something that's

[5:48] aligned with your values. It could be

[5:49] you helped someone or someone tells you

[5:52] that you did something that made things,

[5:53] you know, better. And then we have the

[5:55] third category is noticing something

[5:57] wonderful or beautiful in the world.

[5:59] It's all in nature. It's amazing how

[6:01] many joy reports I get from people. I

[6:03] heard a bird sing. I I I just be like,

[6:06] why why are there so many birds in these

[6:08] joy reports? But people in that moment

[6:11] feel uh connected to the good in life

[6:16] itself.

[6:17] >> And then um the next biggest category is

[6:20] moments where you are enjoying something

[6:21] that you love whether it's an activity

[6:24] or uh you know that that thing that you

[6:26] love beyond reason or you're just in the

[6:29] moment doing something you enjoy and

[6:31] you're able to to feel in that moment or

[6:33] be in that moment. Can you put this into

[6:36] context for why this truly does matter?

[6:39] And it's critical for your life and your

[6:42] meaning in your life.

[6:43] >> Yeah. I mean, people sometimes hear the

[6:45] word joy and they think that what we're

[6:46] talking about is that like moment when

[6:49] everything in your life is perfect. No

[6:51] problems, no pain, nothing you're

[6:54] worried about. And we think that joy is

[6:57] the the emotional reward you get when

[7:00] everything aligns in your life and in

[7:02] the world. And if that isn't true, it's

[7:05] irresponsible or it's foolish or it's

[7:07] naive or it's actually impossible to

[7:09] feel anything that we would call joy.

[7:12] The place that I often think about to

[7:14] start with joy is in that internal like

[7:17] close to home place that even when the

[7:19] world is in chaos,

[7:22] your full humanity is still available to

[7:24] you. And I know this is true because

[7:27] when I teach classes about joy, I often

[7:29] have people joining from war zones who

[7:32] have lost loved ones in war and are

[7:34] being bombed in the middle and they're

[7:36] taking an online class. And what they

[7:37] tell, it's so funny because I will often

[7:39] have some students write me and be like,

[7:41] "Isn't it irresponsible or actually like

[7:43] impossible to be talking about joy right

[7:45] now when there's a war going on?" And

[7:47] then someone living in that war will

[7:49] will send a message that I share with

[7:50] the class that says this, "We need joy.

[7:53] this is why we need joy because life is

[7:56] so uncontrollable and so many terrible

[7:58] things are happening and they're

[8:00] experiencing this thing that is true for

[8:02] all of us that even in that context

[8:05] there's a part of you who can still find

[8:06] things to laugh about. There's a part of

[8:08] you who wants to connect with others and

[8:11] is absolutely capable of it. There is a

[8:14] part of you who is capable of noticing

[8:16] beauty in the world and putting beauty

[8:18] in the world that that you don't need to

[8:22] wait for external circumstances to align

[8:24] to experience those parts of yourself.

[8:27] Wait a minute. I just saw something and

[8:29] I want to give this back to you to see

[8:31] if I'm tracking. So if you have moments

[8:35] in life where there's external forces

[8:39] that cause you to feel despair

[8:42] and that then makes you feel despair

[8:45] internally.

[8:47] When it comes to the positive

[8:49] experiences of joy, of love, of beauty,

[8:52] those things are external in your life.

[8:54] whether it's weddings or puppies or

[8:57] sunsets or dancing, you know, at a

[8:59] concert with your friends to your

[9:01] favorite band. And of course, that

[9:03] impacts how you feel internally.

[9:06] I just understood

[9:08] why

[9:11] the science of joy matters so much

[9:14] because if the signaling from the world

[9:16] is overwhelmingly negative, you're going

[9:18] to feel internally so heavy and

[9:21] negative. And in those moments,

[9:24] tapping into signals that there's still

[9:28] good, there's still happiness, that

[9:30] there's still a reason to move forward,

[9:33] that there's still something you can do.

[9:36] That is what balances you out when life

[9:39] gets very heavy, when the world is very

[9:42] heavy. This isn't like jazz hands and

[9:44] happiness and, you know, something on

[9:46] the surface. This is deep within us. Is

[9:48] that what you're saying? The core

[9:50] function of joy is to make you want to

[9:53] be alive. Joy would not exist if life

[9:56] were not hard. We wouldn't need it

[9:58] actually. Um joy is a particular type of

[10:02] uplift that pulls you up from when

[10:06] you're feeling stuck or sad or hopeless.

[10:09] And that is why you have the capacity to

[10:12] be uplifted by things that are good.

[10:14] It's why you have the capacity in a

[10:16] moment when you're laughing with someone

[10:17] else and your brains start to

[10:19] synchronize and you're you feel

[10:20] connected to someone. Your body and

[10:22] brain are wired to have that moment of

[10:24] closeness because the reality

[10:26] >> is that it's hard to be human.

[10:28] >> And you're here to remind us

[10:30] >> Yeah.

[10:31] >> that we have wiring in our bodies,

[10:32] brains, and resources in us

[10:35] >> to tap into

[10:37] >> this fundamental need. You said the core

[10:40] function of joy.

[10:41] >> Yeah. is to make you want to live, to

[10:43] push through, to keep going, to like

[10:46] evolve and grow. And that's a beautiful

[10:49] way to think about this.

[10:50] >> It's a survival instinct.

[10:52] >> I've never heard anybody say that,

[10:55] >> but it makes sense because like if

[10:59] there's too much negative input, of

[11:01] course, you're going to give up. So, I

[11:02] often collect these joy reports where I

[11:04] just ask people, "What's something

[11:05] recent that brought you joy?" And then I

[11:08] collect some of the ones that I think

[11:10] would surprise people and some of the

[11:12] ones that really stood out to me that I

[11:14] received recently. Um, one was taking

[11:16] care of a spouse who was going through

[11:18] chemotherapy and it was messy and gross.

[11:21] >> And she said, "I think I could do this

[11:23] for the rest of my life because I just I

[11:26] feel so much love and like like what I'm

[11:28] doing matters." And then another was um

[11:31] a student who talked about um being in a

[11:34] bomb shelter and talking with neighbors

[11:37] and saying that he had never felt so

[11:39] close to other human beings as he had in

[11:42] that moment and that it was one of the

[11:44] most joyful experiences of his life. Now

[11:46] you nobody wants that experience. Nobody

[11:49] would describe that as a happy moment or

[11:51] a positive moment. But are it's things

[11:54] we have this capacity and actually all

[11:56] of those were examples of the most

[11:59] common source of joy which is to feel

[12:01] close or connected to others and also to

[12:04] feel like who you are matters. Those are

[12:08] beautiful examples and it also makes

[12:11] your definition of joy which is the core

[12:14] function is to make you want to live

[12:18] >> really powerful.

[12:20] I want to read to you some of the things

[12:22] that listeners in the 194 countries that

[12:26] watch and listen to this show wrote in

[12:28] about. And maybe as you're watching

[12:30] right now or you're taking uh Dr.

[12:33] McDonald and I on a walk or in the car

[12:36] or you're have us with you as you're

[12:38] busy working, maybe you feel some of

[12:40] these things. Maybe people in your life

[12:41] feel these things. I don't feel like

[12:43] myself. Nothing excites me. I feel flat.

[12:49] I am always waiting for something bad to

[12:53] happen. I'm tired of feeling exhausted

[12:58] all the time.

[12:59] >> Mhm. When you hear that,

[13:03] what do you hear?

[13:06] I hear something that's very easy to

[13:08] relate to. It's hard to be human. And I

[13:12] the first thing I want to say is it

[13:14] makes a lot of sense to feel that way as

[13:16] a response to life. And also it's not a

[13:19] a fixed permanent state. You know, your

[13:21] brain is hardwired to find meaning or

[13:24] make meaning. Your nervous system is

[13:28] primed to connect with people. And even

[13:31] at the level of your muscles, your

[13:33] muscles can manufacture and secrete

[13:36] something called hope molecules that

[13:38] when you just literally engage with life

[13:40] using your body that travel through your

[13:43] bloodstream to your brain and act like

[13:45] an anti-depressant. There are so many

[13:47] resources we have, you know, and we have

[13:50] the will to connect, the will to find

[13:52] meaning, the will to celebrate, the will

[13:54] to experience pleasure even in dark

[13:57] moments. And um these are these are

[14:00] parts of yourself that you can learn to

[14:01] harness.

[14:03] Now, is the research that you're about

[14:04] to share with us, is that the pathway to

[14:06] making the hard moments dayto-day

[14:09] easier?

[14:09] >> The research that I focus on is the the

[14:12] resources you already have because

[14:14] you're a human being.

[14:15] >> Okay? And part of that's going to be

[14:16] your body. Part of it's going to be your

[14:19] brain. Part of it is your attention,

[14:21] which is a resource that we can use and

[14:23] train. Part of it's going to be

[14:24] instincts that we can harness. Having

[14:27] agency is the opposite of feeling like

[14:30] there's nothing you can do to to change

[14:32] a situation, to make things better, to

[14:35] get closer to what you want, to help

[14:38] people you care about. That sense that

[14:39] there's nothing I can do. I don't see

[14:41] any way forward or out. And I think the

[14:45] most beautiful thing about human nature

[14:47] is that you know some part of us wants

[14:50] to survive and to survive we need things

[14:54] like meaning and hope and connection and

[14:57] so we do have all of these resources. So

[15:00] the good news is Dr. McDonald, as I was

[15:02] listening to you, there were seven

[15:04] things that you have right in front of

[15:05] you, that you have the ability, and

[15:08] you're going to teach us how to use as

[15:10] free resources to take control of where

[15:14] you are and to start feeling more like

[15:16] yourself and better

[15:18] >> and to help the people in your life feel

[15:19] that way, too. Amazing. You said the

[15:22] body, the brain, your attention,

[15:24] instinct, emotions, choices,

[15:26] relationships.

[15:27] That's seven things. And I think that's

[15:29] such a hopeful an amazing place to

[15:32] begin. So the first resource that we

[15:34] have is our body.

[15:35] >> Yeah. Um two ways I think about the

[15:38] body. I mean one is you can literally

[15:40] place your hands on your body. You're

[15:44] breathing already, right? You can feel

[15:46] that.

[15:46] >> I put my hands on my heart. So even if

[15:48] you have a steering wheel in one hand,

[15:49] you can put it the other hand in your

[15:50] heart. Yeah. I feel breathing.

[15:51] >> You're already breathing. That's your

[15:53] connection to life. Your body is working

[15:55] so hard to support you. Like that could

[15:58] be a very simple way of just connecting

[16:01] to this idea that your body is a

[16:05] resource and you are already here and

[16:07] you have that ability to engage with

[16:10] life. So much of your work is around the

[16:14] the research related to stress and you

[16:17] have one of the most popular TED talks

[16:19] of all time on the science of stress and

[16:22] you think that we all completely

[16:25] misunderstand stress. So, Dr. Mcgonal,

[16:27] what do people misunderstand about

[16:29] stress?

[16:29] >> The number one thing people

[16:31] misunderstand about stress is when they

[16:33] feel stressed, they think it is their

[16:35] brain and their body betraying them. And

[16:38] that the most important thing they can

[16:39] do in that moment is to try to feel less

[16:42] stressed.

[16:44] The reality is stress, what you

[16:46] experience as stress is your brain and

[16:49] your body trying to help you in a moment

[16:51] that matters. And every symptom of

[16:54] stress we don't like is your body and

[16:57] brain trying to do something that is

[16:58] useful. So feeling your heart racing or

[17:01] sometimes we feel like our blood

[17:03] pressure rising. That is the sign that

[17:06] two things. Your body is trying to give

[17:08] you energy, right? That's literally

[17:10] that's all that is. Your heart is

[17:12] possibly pounding faster or it's it's

[17:15] contracting out more blood with every

[17:17] pump so that you have the energy you

[17:18] need to deal with with whatever matters

[17:20] to you. But also what's really

[17:22] fascinating is in moments of heightened

[17:25] stress,

[17:26] >> your brain actually like prioritizes

[17:28] sensory information from your heart,

[17:31] >> it can actually sense your heart more.

[17:33] So even if your heart wasn't pounding

[17:35] faster, you might feel your heart more

[17:37] clearly.

[17:38] >> And that's a sign that your brain is

[17:41] actually trying to connect you to your

[17:43] heart

[17:44] >> to and almost like metaphorically like

[17:46] to help you think about what you care

[17:48] about, to think about who and what

[17:50] matters most. So you know what I would

[17:52] say is that even just that first symptom

[17:55] when you feel your heart racing the

[17:57] first thing you can do is think okay

[17:58] thank you body for trying to give me

[18:01] energy I have the ability that means

[18:03] some part of me believes I can do

[18:05] something here it's not hopeless or I'm

[18:07] not trapped

[18:08] >> and then also thank you brain for

[18:11] telling me trying to bring me back to my

[18:13] heart because in a moment of stress

[18:15] there are a lot of things we can do to

[18:16] cope but one of the best things you can

[18:18] do to cope is to think about who or what

[18:20] matters matters most to you, what you

[18:22] care about, and in this situation,

[18:24] what's the opportunity that I have to do

[18:27] something that reflects who or what I

[18:29] care about most? Dr. McDonagle, you

[18:32] talked about something called a hope

[18:34] molecule. What is a hope molecule?

[18:36] >> I'm so glad you asked. Uh, this is one

[18:38] of my favorite scientific findings I've

[18:41] ever come across. Um, you know, you have

[18:44] muscles throughout your body, and if you

[18:46] had asked scientists a couple decades

[18:47] ago, what are your muscles for? uh they

[18:50] would have said, "Well, to move your

[18:51] bones around, right, to stabilize your

[18:53] skeleton." But now we know that your

[18:55] muscles actually are like a pharmacy and

[18:58] they are a part of your body that

[18:59] manufactures all of these chemicals that

[19:01] are good for you. Your muscles can

[19:03] manufacture chemicals that fight cancer

[19:05] cells, that boost your immune system,

[19:07] that are good for your heart, that

[19:09] regulate your blood sugar, that help you

[19:11] build strength, and also they release

[19:13] chemicals that travel to your brain and

[19:16] work to help you recover from stress,

[19:18] that make you more resilient, that boost

[19:20] motivation. Again, that are essentially

[19:22] functioning like anti-depressant

[19:24] molecules. And they are released from

[19:27] your muscles when you use them. muscle

[19:30] contraction

[19:32] pushes these hope molecules into your

[19:34] bloodstream where they can then course

[19:36] through your body and arrive at your

[19:38] brain which you know you might actually

[19:40] need those molecules and again the thing

[19:42] that like why I love this we're so used

[19:44] to hearing scientific findings that are

[19:46] like here's how your body can go wrong

[19:48] here's how your body can betray you here

[19:50] are all the things you need to worry

[19:51] about [snorts] we almost never get the

[19:53] opportunity to experience our own

[19:56] physical being as a resource as

[19:59] something we can trust rather than

[20:00] something we have to fix. Um, and so I

[20:04] love this idea that by going for a walk,

[20:07] by, you know, lifting heavy things

[20:09] around your house, by having a dance

[20:11] party in your living room, whatever you

[20:13] want to do to use your body, every time

[20:16] you use your body to engage with life,

[20:18] you're actually accessing this pharmacy

[20:20] that wants to give you a little more

[20:22] courage, a little more resilience, a

[20:24] little more hope. This research comes

[20:25] out of the field of exercise science. So

[20:27] sometimes people think, well, that means

[20:29] I have to go to the gym or I have to do

[20:31] the most strenuous workout that I can

[20:33] imagine. But that's not how your body

[20:35] and brain think about it. Your body just

[20:38] thinks, "Oh, I'm engaged with life, so I

[20:42] better give all my systems something

[20:44] that's going to help me thrive." And

[20:46] when you um are less active, your body

[20:50] gives you less of this resource. So

[20:53] going from nothing to anything is the

[20:55] biggest step you can take.

[20:57] >> And then really, I mean, look, we could

[21:00] we could sit here and wave at each other

[21:01] and be releasing.

[21:02] >> It's true.

[21:03] >> I'm like waving right now and I feel

[21:05] like my body shift. Like I I if you've

[21:08] ever had an experience where you're at a

[21:09] wedding and it's very interesting

[21:11] because at really great weddings, the

[21:14] the band just plays a banger out of the

[21:16] gate and you've got somebody pulling

[21:18] people on. But

[21:20] >> that would be me, by the way. I'd be the

[21:21] one being like, "You come here."

[21:23] >> Yeah, I'm like that, too. I'm like, it

[21:24] probably surprises no one that I drag my

[21:26] poor husband, Christopher Robbins, who

[21:28] is deep in conversation, right out onto

[21:32] the dance floor. But

[21:34] >> the we've also had the experience where

[21:35] you're the one on the edge going, "Do I

[21:37] join?"

[21:37] >> The second you step on the floor and

[21:40] like just move your shoulders, you feel

[21:42] different. You get pulled into this like

[21:44] force field of connection and joy. And

[21:47] you have to let yourself be pulled in. I

[21:49] always with almost anything that is good

[21:52] for you and I don't mean in like the

[21:54] moral way but in like you actually will

[21:56] feel better if you do it

[21:58] >> almost everyone feels resistance

[22:00] beforehand. You always are going to feel

[22:02] like you have less energy or you're

[22:03] always going to feel more socially

[22:05] anxious and withdrawn because you

[22:06] haven't done the thing yet that's going

[22:08] to help you feel less self-conscious and

[22:10] connected to others. You haven't done

[22:12] the thing yet that's going to give you

[22:14] energy or help you feel braver. And so I

[22:17] always tell people when you get that

[22:18] that clear signal that says I don't know

[22:21] whether I I can or should join in or I

[22:23] don't have the energy for this that that

[22:26] is a it's a real signal but it's the

[22:28] opposite of what how you're interpreting

[22:30] it. That is the signal that you need it

[22:33] and you need to draw in some kind of

[22:35] commitment to yourself rather than an in

[22:37] the- moment feeling that says I'm ready

[22:40] or I want to. And for me, what I usually

[22:44] recommend to people is add music. It is

[22:46] one of the simplest ways to change

[22:48] people's.

[22:50] Well, it depends on what I want. Right

[22:52] now, I'm really loving Madonna's

[22:53] Danceria, which you know, it's a it's a

[22:56] fabulous song. The one of the lyrics is

[22:58] about how everybody here is a work of

[23:01] art, which is just a lovely idea. Um,

[23:03] but I like music that I can dance to.

[23:05] Um, but we know that when you listen to

[23:08] a song that you love, it is the fastest

[23:11] way to get a burst of dopamine that

[23:13] gives you more motivation and optimism

[23:15] releases endorphins and endockinabonoids

[23:17] that make you feel better. Uh, it is it

[23:19] literally when neuroscientists want to

[23:22] study joy in the brain, the easiest way

[23:24] to do it is to play a song that people

[23:26] love. They say they love. And the same

[23:28] thing if you want people to feel less

[23:29] pain. If someone is going through

[23:31] something painful like a medical

[23:32] procedure and you want them to feel less

[23:34] pain, the easiest way to do it is to

[23:37] have them listen to music they love. It

[23:39] is just it's such a powerful

[23:40] intervention. And so you put on a song

[23:43] that you love and then you do anything

[23:45] that is the opposite of lying down or

[23:47] sitting down if you're physically

[23:48] capable of it.

[23:48] >> Yeah.

[23:49] >> And if you aren't, then just listening

[23:50] to the song makes it activates the part

[23:52] of the brain that thinks it's moving

[23:53] anyways. So you get the benefit. But

[23:56] it's, you know, it's the feel better

[23:57] effect. And there's no dose too small.

[23:59] The smallest studies that I found have

[24:00] been like two to three minutes. That's a

[24:03] pretty achievable dose.

[24:04] >> That's one song.

[24:05] >> Yeah, it's less. I mean, well, now Tik

[24:06] Tok era, that is about one song.

[24:08] >> Wow, that's pretty. I love that. Okay.

[24:11] Um, and what my favorite thing, and I

[24:14] noticed this is what my family and my

[24:16] colleagues do is when I get particularly

[24:19] down or stressed or in a bad mood,

[24:22] they're like, "Let's take a walk, Mel.

[24:24] Come on. Let's move the Let's like take

[24:26] a walk cuz I'm not going for a run right

[24:27] now. We don't have time. Walking down

[24:30] the driveway and back up. I'm a

[24:31] different spouse. Yeah. I am a different

[24:33] mother. I am a different Mel Robbins.

[24:35] Walking around the block here by our

[24:37] studios. I come back feeling

[24:41] >> like different.

[24:42] >> Yeah.

[24:43] >> Yeah. Okay. And it's for some of the

[24:44] reasons we've talked about. I mean,

[24:45] first of all, you got those hope

[24:46] molecules going. Um, and but you're also

[24:50] you're creating a state change. When we

[24:52] are physically active, our brain reads

[24:54] that as a signal that there that you're

[24:57] moving forward, that there are steps you

[24:59] can take. I mean, it's like it's so

[25:00] fascinating. Movement is such a great

[25:02] metaphor and our brain just like takes

[25:03] it literally. You can move forward.

[25:06] There are steps you can take. Um, you

[25:09] can breathe, right? It's it's the things

[25:12] that you do with your body. You can do

[25:13] hard things. There's reasons to

[25:16] celebrate. Go move with somebody else.

[25:18] Your brain understands you're not alone.

[25:20] There's something movement is so

[25:21] interesting. I guess it's just because

[25:23] it's how humans evolved and it's how we

[25:26] exist in bodies, but our bodies really

[25:29] reward us for acknowledging that.

[25:31] >> Well, I think if you even just ask

[25:33] yourself if you're feeling not like

[25:35] yourself and disconnected and flatly,

[25:37] have you gotten out of your chair?

[25:39] >> Yeah.

[25:39] >> Like simply just standing up. Okay, I'm

[25:41] standing up now. I'm I'm like kind of

[25:44] wiggling and now I'm sitting back down

[25:46] and I feel just a little bit like

[25:48] different. I'm I'm kind of positioned in

[25:50] the chair different now.

[25:50] >> And if you can't get out of a chair, you

[25:52] move whatever parts of your body you

[25:54] still can.

[25:54] >> Yeah. Lift your arms. Do something. All

[25:56] right. So, that's resource number one,

[25:57] body. What is another thing we can do

[25:59] with our brain? So, the brain is also a

[26:02] resource

[26:03] >> that can help you plug in to signals of

[26:06] joy and hope and meaning. You probably

[26:08] know that your brain monitors all sorts

[26:10] of processes in your body. It's

[26:12] measuring your heart rate, your

[26:13] breathing, your blood sugar, and it's

[26:15] trying to make sure everything's good

[26:16] enough to keep you alive.

[26:18] Well, your brain also monitors these

[26:20] other like big existential questions

[26:22] like does anybody care about me? Are

[26:25] there people I care about? Am I alone or

[26:27] am I connected? Does what I do matter?

[26:31] Uh is there beauty in the world? Is

[26:33] there a reason to smile? Are there

[26:35] things to look forward to?

[26:37] Are human beings good? There are all

[26:40] these things that like we actually need

[26:42] to know to want to be alive. Not to our

[26:46] brain is monitoring things in our body

[26:48] that allow us to be alive and our brain

[26:50] is monitoring things about our life that

[26:53] make us want to be alive. And in a

[26:55] crisis when you're getting so much

[26:58] information about how hard things are,

[27:00] how bad things could get, and you're

[27:02] starting to feel emotions like like

[27:05] overwhelm or maybe loneliness, uh fear,

[27:08] anger, you need signals that say there

[27:13] are good things in the world. What you

[27:14] do matters. You aren't alone. There are

[27:17] people you care about who care about

[27:18] you. You need experiences that tell you

[27:21] that as much as you need to eat and as

[27:23] much as you need to breathe. Um, and so

[27:26] even the smallest uplifts, the smallest

[27:29] moments of joy, meaningful pleasure,

[27:31] connection, moments where you feel proud

[27:33] about yourself for something you did,

[27:35] even if it was small, it's like it's so

[27:38] fascinating is as a coping resource, the

[27:40] size doesn't matter. You could be in a

[27:42] situation where the suffering is huge

[27:44] and you experience an uplift that is

[27:46] objectively small. like noticing

[27:49] something beautiful out your window or

[27:51] someone said thanked you for something

[27:53] that you did.

[27:54] >> I'll give you one. When I had severe

[27:55] postpartum depression with my daughter

[27:57] Sawyer,

[27:59] I remember the day I actually got out of

[28:03] bed and took a shower.

[28:05] >> Yeah.

[28:05] >> And then I went back to bed. But that

[28:08] one moment of standing in that hot

[28:11] shower after like 11 days

[28:14] in that bed was the smallest moment that

[28:18] made me feel like okay.

[28:21] And sometimes it's the sensory aspect of

[28:23] it like the hot water on your skin and

[28:25] maybe there's relief for like a moment

[28:27] or sometimes it's the meaning that you

[28:29] make out of it. Maybe some part of you

[28:30] is like I couldn't do this yesterday or

[28:33] the day before and I did it today. And

[28:36] it's that meaning that your brain I mean

[28:38] the brain when I said that like one of

[28:40] the resources is that your brain is

[28:41] really good at making meaning is your

[28:44] brain can have these generous

[28:45] interpretations

[28:47] of small moments or experiences. It's

[28:49] also like something you can train

[28:50] yourself to do. That hot shower wouldn't

[28:53] really have provided the same kind of

[28:55] hope if there wasn't some part of you

[28:57] that could put it in the context of you

[28:58] not being able to do it yesterday. And

[29:00] that that means something. It means that

[29:02] change is possible or it means that you

[29:04] are capable. The the brain has all sorts

[29:07] of processes it can do. Visualization,

[29:11] imagination,

[29:12] memory, you know, problem solving. So,

[29:15] let's go with memory because we know

[29:17] that when you bring to mind a memory

[29:19] that either makes you feel good or makes

[29:21] you feel good about yourself. So, it

[29:23] doesn't necessarily have to be a happy

[29:24] memory, but a memory that means

[29:26] something to you that it gives you an

[29:30] instant increase in hope.

[29:32] >> Um, it can bring up positive emotions

[29:34] like gratitude or enthusiasm. People

[29:37] have reported using memories when they

[29:39] can't be with people they love in order

[29:41] to remind themselves that there are

[29:43] people who care about them and that

[29:45] there are people who they can depend on.

[29:48] So, you can use whatever treasure trove

[29:50] of memories you have. remember something

[29:52] that makes you smile or makes you laugh

[29:54] or makes you feel close to someone. You

[29:57] can even like collect memories that

[29:59] become resources in that way. When I'm

[30:02] feeling like really scared and I don't

[30:04] want to do something, but a more

[30:06] important part of me does want to do it.

[30:08] >> It's just getting the the other part

[30:11] that wants to be in control or avoid

[30:13] discomfort, right? That part is a little

[30:16] too loud right now. Um, I can bring up a

[30:18] memory of when I felt glad that I did

[30:21] this hard thing before or I can bring up

[30:24] a memory of someone who loves me

[30:26] encouraging me and telling me that I can

[30:27] do it. Um, yeah. So, let's make that our

[30:30] brain resource.

[30:31] >> I love that one. I think I I I have one

[30:33] that just came to mind. when I feel

[30:35] lonely and I feel um discouraged or I

[30:41] feel like I don't know how I'm going to

[30:43] get through something. A memory I often

[30:46] come back to was 21 years ago, Mass

[30:48] General Brigham Hospital here in Boston.

[30:50] Our son Oakley was 5 days old and had

[30:53] been medevaced to the hospital and the

[30:56] docs in the suburban hospital had said,

[30:59] "Pack your bags. We don't know if he's

[31:00] going to make it." So, we went home,

[31:02] packed our bags, and when we got to Mass

[31:04] General Brighgam, it was like 11:00 at

[31:06] night, and the door swung open to the

[31:09] NICU, and there were my friends, Robin

[31:12] and Lisa,

[31:14] and um

[31:17] and I'll never forget it. They had both

[31:19] had babies prior in the nickn.

[31:28] Um, but I come back to that and the

[31:30] funny thing is is that I I don't even

[31:31] see them as much as I am dying to see

[31:34] them. You know, we're all in our late

[31:35] 50s and kids that have moved out of the

[31:37] house and everyone seems oddly busier at

[31:40] this [laughter] stage at life. But it

[31:42] does remind me even though they're not

[31:43] in front of me of a moment when I wasn't

[31:45] alone and I did get through it. So you

[31:48] know it's funny you're doing what is the

[31:50] next step when psychologists are trying

[31:52] to help people use memories as a

[31:54] resource. This one question that I

[31:56] learned from a psychologist at take a

[31:57] contractor. She asks her clients what is

[32:01] a an important thought or feeling this

[32:04] memory gives you. And so I was going to

[32:05] actually ask you that memory came to

[32:08] mind. What's an important thought or

[32:09] feeling that gives you?

[32:11] >> And you mentioned that you aren't alone

[32:14] and that you can get through this.

[32:16] >> Yes. And it also makes me want to be the

[32:19] kind of person

[32:20] >> that shows up in those moments.

[32:22] >> Yeah, that's so great. Right. So, that's

[32:24] the next step with a lot of these

[32:25] things. I think sometimes people think

[32:27] the intention of what we're talking

[32:28] about is just to feel better.

[32:30] >> But often it's about helping us be the

[32:35] person we want to be in the moment, too.

[32:37] And so, you know, just asking yourself

[32:39] that question gave you almost an

[32:41] orientation or a mission like you're

[32:43] called to do something feelings up. And

[32:45] I think that's kind of the point of what

[32:47] we're talking about. Like particularly,

[32:50] you know, that a good life is not one

[32:53] where you're happy all the time. A good

[32:55] life is not one where everything is

[32:57] going well or perfectly or everybody's

[33:00] healthy or you're thriving. A good life

[33:03] includes these moments that are

[33:04] terrifying. And I think it's really

[33:07] important that when you recognize that

[33:11] even in those moments when your life

[33:12] feels horrible and scary, it can still

[33:15] be a beautiful life. And I I really find

[33:19] it helpful personally and I hope you do

[33:21] too as you're listening or watching this

[33:23] idea that there are signals that are

[33:25] scary and then there are signals that

[33:27] are hopeful.

[33:28] >> And at any moment you can use these

[33:30] seven resources inside of you whether

[33:33] they're not even here in the present.

[33:34] You can go back 21 years like I just did

[33:36] in this conversation. Yeah.

[33:38] >> And remind yourself that this moment

[33:40] too,

[33:41] >> you can get through and that there are

[33:43] people there to help and that you aren't

[33:44] going to be alone even though you feel

[33:46] it right now.

[33:47] >> Mhm.

[33:48] >> Let's talk about the next

[33:50] >> which is your attention.

[33:51] >> Um attention. So

[33:53] >> there's way too much going on in any

[33:54] given moment for your brain to process.

[33:56] It's always making choices and your

[33:59] brain is just discarding huge amount

[34:02] amounts of information about what's

[34:03] happening in this moment. And a lot of

[34:06] people like me have a negative attention

[34:08] bias where our brain is like made a

[34:11] decision. It's just a little more

[34:12] important to be vigilant for things that

[34:15] could go wrong or to pay attention to

[34:18] things that are not right or you know

[34:20] maybe it's self-criticism or or

[34:22] criticism outwards or anxiety and you

[34:25] can just filter that by making a choice

[34:27] that in this moment I want to bring my

[34:30] attention to something that's going

[34:32] right or to to find a signal that is

[34:35] encouraging. So, um, when I teach

[34:37] classes on joy, I'll often have people

[34:40] practice this by saying like, "Right

[34:41] now, I want you to look around this

[34:43] room, wherever you are, including your

[34:45] body, for something that reminds you of

[34:48] someone or something you love." You

[34:50] could do that. Or you could say, "Right

[34:52] now, I'm going to look around in this

[34:54] moment for evidence that somebody did

[34:56] something to make life better for me."

[35:00] [snorts] Or, "I'm going to look around

[35:01] right now for something that I enjoy,

[35:03] that I'm having a positive response to."

[35:05] you get, it really depends on your

[35:07] personality. You get to choose what you

[35:08] bring your attention to, but there will

[35:11] probably be certain aspects of reality

[35:13] that are true that if you don't remind

[35:15] yourself to pay attention to them, it's

[35:17] so easy to have a kind of like you're

[35:19] just blind to them. It's like, you know,

[35:21] if you're shopping, you're at the

[35:22] grocery store and you're looking for a

[35:24] type of cereal. If you know you're

[35:26] looking for that cereal, everything gets

[35:28] kind of blurry and then that cereal logo

[35:30] jumps out at you, right? It was already

[35:32] there, but you had to tell your brain,

[35:34] I'm trying to find that cereal now, so

[35:35] help me. I I am curious, Dr. McGonagal,

[35:40] >> in a moment in your life

[35:44] >> where either your personal life has so

[35:47] much external despair

[35:49] >> or the world around you that you're

[35:54] living in has so much external despair.

[35:57] So there's so much grabbing at your

[35:59] attention that's real that's there.

[36:02] >> Does your negative bias in your mind

[36:05] >> become bigger?

[36:07] >> It depends. Okay.

[36:08] >> If you're asking me, yes. [laughter]

[36:10] >> Well, I mean it because I would think

[36:11] like if all the input's negative like

[36:14] this is like you know in periods of

[36:15] grief, you've just been laid off, you

[36:17] feel terrible about it, you're drowning,

[36:19] you you've been broken up with like

[36:21] these moments that are crushing.

[36:23] >> Yeah. or you read the headlines for too

[36:26] long and now you're like I can't do

[36:27] anything to say and now I'm like super

[36:29] and now all you see is negativity. So

[36:31] two things can happen. Okay, one is it's

[36:33] very like your brain initially is going

[36:35] to think this is reality. So it's going

[36:37] to be really important to pay attention

[36:39] to this to stay on guard. I've got to

[36:41] keep track of all the things that I have

[36:44] to take care of. I mean I you know two

[36:46] years ago I think to almost to this date

[36:49] my father was diagnosed with a terminal

[36:51] untreatable cancer and my mom went

[36:53] through a health crisis that required a

[36:55] lot of help and that was I think the

[36:58] most intense period of my life in terms

[37:00] of the abs the chaos and the crisis

[37:02] unfolding all at once and requiring so

[37:06] much more from me than I was used to

[37:10] just daytoday being able to function and

[37:12] take care of stuff and manage things

[37:14] going wrong and trying to to prevent the

[37:17] worst possible outcomes. But there's

[37:19] this other instinct that often can float

[37:21] up and if it doesn't float up, you can

[37:23] pull it up, which is I am not going to

[37:26] survive this if I do not have at least

[37:29] one moment today when I laugh. I am not

[37:32] going to survive this unless I have a

[37:35] moment where I let somebody touch me who

[37:38] cares about me or whatever it is for you

[37:41] that brings you a little moment of peace

[37:43] or joy or meaning. I remember I was

[37:46] taking a shower and I started getting

[37:49] texts and phone calls at the same time

[37:51] from family and and healthcare providers

[37:53] and social workers and I was in the

[37:55] shower. So I turned the water off and I

[37:57] sat on the floor of the shower for like

[37:59] 3 hours because I thought I do not have

[38:01] time to dry myself off. I couldn't even

[38:05] like that sort of coping. But as the as

[38:07] things progressed, I realized that to

[38:09] survive, I needed to hold on to a few

[38:12] things that were renewing and

[38:15] sustaining. And part of its attention,

[38:18] like at the end of the day, looking back

[38:20] for one highlight instead of like my

[38:23] mind going to sleep, it would say your

[38:24] job now is to think about everything

[38:26] that could go wrong tomorrow, everything

[38:27] you have to do tomorrow, and definitely

[38:29] don't put your phone, you know, to sleep

[38:31] cuz you're going to be getting texts,

[38:32] you know, from at 3:00 in the morning.

[38:34] But I could use my attention in that

[38:36] moment to think about one highlight of

[38:37] the day, which really functions well to

[38:40] also remind your brain that good things

[38:43] are possible or that you aren't alone,

[38:44] whatever that signal is that you need. I

[38:47] also appreciate that you just said

[38:49] because as you're listening, you or

[38:50] somebody that you love may be in that

[38:54] moment where you're sitting in the

[38:55] shower for 3 hours

[38:57] >> dealing.

[38:57] >> Yeah.

[38:58] >> Because you don't have time to take a

[38:59] shower. And

[39:02] >> I love that we keep framing this like

[39:04] the external signals come in that

[39:06] overwhelm you and super challenging

[39:08] moments. That's how life works.

[39:10] >> And you can dig up something when you

[39:12] realize I'm drowning here and I need a

[39:14] laugh.

[39:14] >> Yeah.

[39:15] >> Let's go to the next one. The next free

[39:17] resource is your instincts. Like how do

[39:19] you use your instincts as a resource to

[39:21] find meaning, purpose to support

[39:24] yourself through these challenging

[39:25] moments? Here's my favorite instinct

[39:27] that is deeply underappreciated

[39:29] >> because we have instincts for courage.

[39:31] We have instincts to help others. Those

[39:32] are lovely. But there is some part of

[39:35] you who loves something beyond reason. I

[39:38] don't know what you're a fan of, but

[39:40] there is something that probably you

[39:41] like more than is easy to explain.

[39:44] >> Fantasy fiction.

[39:44] >> Okay, great.

[39:45] >> Listening dramatic audio.

[39:47] >> So, I think most people have something

[39:48] that they just love beyond reason and

[39:51] often it's something that is accessible.

[39:53] And when life is difficult, we often

[39:56] think, I don't have time for this, or

[39:57] it's frivolous. Maybe the people in our

[39:59] lives don't really understand why it's

[40:01] so important or helpful to us. And if

[40:05] you just you should trust what you love.

[40:07] It's a beautiful part of who you are,

[40:09] especially if you've had a relationship

[40:10] with it over time, if it's been there

[40:13] for you, um that in moments when you

[40:15] need it, to let it be that thing that

[40:18] keeps you going or lifts you up.

[40:20] >> And I love it if it's a little weird.

[40:21] >> Yeah. Yeah, like one of the reasons why

[40:22] I love fantasy fiction is it allows me

[40:24] to escape. I'm living in a different

[40:25] world as I'm listening to this like

[40:27] movie acting out in my mind. I also love

[40:30] knitting. I love needle work. I love

[40:31] gardening. I like all those kinds of

[40:33] things. And so your instinct

[40:36] that gets ignited by something that's

[40:38] just for you that kind of reminds you

[40:40] like what does it do when you're sitting

[40:42] there doing needle point during a

[40:44] stressful time?

[40:44] >> It's so interesting. You ask people

[40:46] about the things they love, they will I

[40:48] play this game with my students where I

[40:50] make a list of activities and knitting

[40:52] is one of them. Playing board games is

[40:54] one of them. And then researchers have

[40:56] asked people, explain why this is so

[40:58] meaningful to you.

[40:59] >> And people say things like in in a

[41:02] moment when I was in such deep pain and

[41:05] agony to be able to feel something that

[41:07] wasn't that it was like love. I'm like,

[41:10] what activity do you think they were

[41:11] describing? That quote that I just

[41:13] paraphrased that was about playing board

[41:14] games. This is why I said it's sort of

[41:16] without reason that there will be

[41:19] activities that just when you do them

[41:21] you feel better about yourself, better

[41:23] about life. You feel like you have a

[41:25] place to show up. Whatever the reason

[41:27] is, they fulfill really important core

[41:29] human needs. And you shouldn't have to

[41:32] justify that to anybody else. It's so

[41:35] easy to dismiss these things. But if if

[41:37] they brought in a puppy right now or a

[41:40] kitten, can we?

[41:41] >> I Tracy, come on.

[41:43] >> Come on. Could we? If you want to see

[41:44] some unbridled joy.

[41:45] >> Oh my god. I would I I like even just

[41:48] imagining puppies running. I'm imagining

[41:51] little baby corgis. I love corgis. You

[41:52] know how they're like big little They're

[41:54] low to the ground. I just love corgis.

[41:56] I'm imagining puppies right now. Now I'm

[41:58] happier. I I want to tell you about some

[42:00] research too with this. I'm a huge

[42:02] proponent everyone should have an animal

[42:03] in their life. I'm trained as a an

[42:05] adoption counselor. If you want to

[42:07] rescue pets, please hit me up. Why

[42:09] should you have an animal in your life?

[42:10] There's such amazing research. First of

[42:11] all, if you want to look for the moments

[42:13] in people's lives when they smile or

[42:16] laugh or experience play or experience

[42:20] affectionate touch, right? Core human

[42:23] needs that of anything you could do in

[42:27] life, you are most likely to experience

[42:29] those things when you are interacting

[42:31] with an animal and especially your pet.

[42:33] And they've done studies too looking at

[42:35] places where people are suffering like

[42:36] in a hospital or in hospice. You bring

[42:39] in an animal and these these things just

[42:42] come out of us. We are still capable of

[42:44] smiling, laughing, playing and engaging

[42:47] in caregiving and affectionate touch.

[42:50] It's a wonderful opportunity we have as

[42:52] humans. Everyone should adopt a pet. I

[42:55] agree. It's so true. And when you bring

[42:57] in the pet, what's interesting is my

[42:59] resigned, frustrated, exhausted, judgy,

[43:02] pushbacky self goes right out the

[43:04] window. I'm like, you're absolutely

[43:05] right. I do feel better when I see my

[43:07] pet. And that's a signal of things that

[43:10] are good. That's a signal of meaning.

[43:12] It's a signal of of the good experience

[43:15] of being human, which you said, Dr.

[43:17] McConagle, is hardwired in you. I know.

[43:19] And it's a sign of what's good in you,

[43:20] too. So, especially if you're a dog

[43:22] person, dogs, the way that dogs look at

[43:25] you is what we really all crave, right?

[43:27] We want people to kind of see us for who

[43:29] we are and be like, "I'm so glad you're

[43:32] here."

[43:33] >> And dogs are really good at that. Now,

[43:35] I'm a cat person. What cats are really

[43:37] good at, they're good at saying, uh,

[43:41] I trust you. Like, that's that's a

[43:44] trustbased relationship. When you get a

[43:46] cat who's willing to trust you, it gives

[43:48] you this sense of like, wow, I'm a I'm a

[43:53] special person. Like, I I created a real

[43:56] bond here. And then when you interact

[43:58] with animals and you feel that way about

[44:00] yourself, you know, it just leaves a

[44:02] sense of that being true outside of just

[44:04] that one relationship.

[44:06] >> Um, and it's I mean, we're talking about

[44:07] animals now. There are lots of ways we

[44:10] can experience this. What I actually

[44:12] really want people to do is trust the

[44:14] experiences that give them that feeling.

[44:16] So if you're thinking, I'm not an animal

[44:19] person, but I feel that way when I'm in

[44:21] nature or I feel that way when I'm

[44:23] making music or I feel that way when I'm

[44:25] cooking for people. Um is to to find the

[44:28] things that make you feel that way about

[44:30] yourself where like who you are is a

[44:33] good thing and there's a fit between who

[44:35] you are and what's happening in that

[44:36] moment. Emotions is another one of these

[44:38] free resources that help you tap into

[44:41] the signals of life that you're wired to

[44:43] feel meaning, purpose, joy.

[44:46] >> How do you use your emotions?

[44:47] >> Let's see. I mean, one way is to start

[44:48] with where you actually are. I that

[44:51] that's where you ask yourself like what

[44:53] emotions are present

[44:55] >> and what is that emotion trying to help

[44:58] me reflect on or what is it calling me

[45:00] to do? I feel like that's a really

[45:02] advanced skill though. When you shut

[45:04] down emotionally,

[45:06] >> what does that mean?

[45:07] >> It is a moment where your body and brain

[45:10] reading the situation

[45:12] uh think that there's actually nothing

[45:13] you can do. And if you feel like you are

[45:18] unsafe, don't have a lot of power, don't

[45:22] have a lot of control or options, your

[45:24] body and brain will try as an act of

[45:26] kindness to make you less present for

[45:28] what's happening.

[45:29] >> And so you can start to shut down. you

[45:32] can start to be less, you know, in some

[45:33] some stress responses, it heightens all

[45:35] your senses because those stress

[45:38] responses want you to fight or flee or

[45:41] help someone or like, you know, rise to

[45:44] the challenge. But some stress responses

[45:46] are just trying to take care of you in a

[45:48] difficult moment and make it less awful

[45:50] to be in. And [snorts] in some

[45:53] situations, it's helpful. But a lot of

[45:55] us who have had experiences where it was

[45:58] helpful at the time it can become a kind

[46:00] of chronic way to relate to life where

[46:02] anytime things get difficult the body

[46:04] and brain is like let's go into that

[46:06] place where it can't can't we can't feel

[46:09] it as much

[46:10] >> and uh often you know the the coping

[46:13] strategies I had to learn that someone

[46:15] who who experiences this kind of

[46:17] withdrawal or shutdown you have to um

[46:21] start to really cultivate these other

[46:23] stress st responses, these other stress

[46:26] resources that are more about engaging

[46:30] with life. How do you do that?

[46:31] >> There's two types of strategies. One is

[46:34] the more global like what you do in your

[46:36] life to train yourself and then there is

[46:38] in the moment.

[46:40] >> I really believe that what you need to

[46:42] do is train for these moments. Okay? So

[46:44] I mean I could tell you something to do

[46:45] but the number one thing I would tell

[46:46] you to do is you need to go in your mind

[46:49] to the memory of the thing you were able

[46:51] to do when you were training. So let me

[46:54] give you an example. You know you

[46:55] thanked me for getting on a plane to get

[46:57] out here and I mentioned I hate flying.

[46:59] I have huge fear of flying my entire

[47:01] life to the point where you know I

[47:04] refuse to fly have panic attacks even

[47:06] thinking about booking an airline

[47:08] ticket. I would like dissociate or hope

[47:11] to dissociate even when I had to think

[47:13] about giving up my bodily autonomy in

[47:17] that way and being on an airplane.

[47:18] >> It felt unsafe.

[47:19] >> Yeah. So, here's how I trained. When I

[47:21] decided I wanted to be able to fly, I

[47:24] thought, how do I feel when I'm on a

[47:26] plane, which is completely out of

[47:28] control, I'm having a panic attack, so

[47:30] my heart is racing. I'm sweating. All I

[47:33] want is to get out of this space. I want

[47:35] the freedom to leave. and I'm trapped

[47:37] and I can't.

[47:38] >> Um, and I thought, where have I ever

[47:40] felt like that that's not on a plane cuz

[47:43] I'm not ready to get on a plane. And I

[47:45] remembered going to a spin class, an

[47:47] indoor cycling class and hating it. And

[47:50] feeling like I when I was on that bike,

[47:52] I just wanted to get off the bike. I

[47:53] wanted to get out of the sweaty room

[47:55] with stale air. My heart was pounding.

[47:57] And I thought, I'm going to go back and

[47:58] I'm going to go to that spin class and

[48:01] I'm going to practice staying on the

[48:02] bike and feeling all the things that I

[48:05] feel on an airplane. And in that moment,

[48:08] I'm going to tell myself, I'm doing this

[48:10] because I want to choose a life where I

[48:11] can get on planes. As much as I try to

[48:13] protect myself, I can't protect myself

[48:16] from things I don't want to experience.

[48:18] It actually I'm suffering just as much

[48:19] by avoiding it as I ever would be by

[48:22] doing it. And so I'm going to I'm going

[48:24] to practice this kind of for me it was

[48:27] like a just the physical courage to stay

[48:28] put and tolerate the pounding heart and

[48:31] tolerate the sweat um and feeling

[48:33] trapped. I'm going to tolerate that in

[48:36] the service of something that matters to

[48:37] me. And I feel like so I know it'd be

[48:40] like so nice if I could tell you when

[48:41] you're dissociated. I mean there are

[48:42] things you can do like feel your feet on

[48:44] the floor. There are things you can do

[48:45] to ground and I've heard a lot of

[48:47] wonderful people on your show talk about

[48:48] those in the moments. But I really want

[48:51] you to have a memory of you being that

[48:53] version of yourself and that's what you

[48:55] call to mind.

[48:56] >> Is there something you can say um to

[48:59] yourself? Because if you're saying to

[49:00] yourself, there's nothing I can do.

[49:03] Could you start saying to yourself,

[49:04] "Well, there's something I can do." You

[49:06] could, but here's what I'd rather start

[49:07] with. The function of that shutdown is

[49:10] some part of you is trying to take care

[49:12] of you. Yeah.

[49:13] >> It is compassion for yourself. the same

[49:16] way that you would want to protect

[49:17] someone you love and you'd want to like

[49:19] scoop them up and like shelter them if

[49:22] something terrible was happening, right?

[49:23] You'd throw your body over them so they

[49:25] didn't have to experience it. So that's

[49:27] what is real and true in that moment is

[49:29] there's a part of you who cares about

[49:30] yourself that much.

[49:31] >> Oh, I love that.

[49:32] >> And that's the part of me that got on a

[49:35] bike and that's the part of me that gets

[49:37] on an airplane even when I don't want

[49:39] to. It's a different form of

[49:41] self-compassion. And so what I would say

[49:43] is rather than saying I do have control.

[49:45] I you know well that's also true but to

[49:48] start with the thing that's closer to

[49:50] what's happening which is there's a part

[49:52] of you who really cares about you and

[49:54] wants the best for you.

[49:56] >> That part of you if you thought about it

[49:58] like what do who do I want to be in this

[50:00] moment? What do I want to bring to this

[50:01] moment?

[50:02] >> I love what you said. I think it's

[50:05] extraordinarily powerful to not make

[50:08] yourself wrong, but to recognize the

[50:12] moments that you go silent and shut down

[50:14] and start to shrink as a sign that you

[50:17] love yourself and you're protecting

[50:18] yourself. And what I heard you say is

[50:21] then start to ask yourself like, how do

[50:25] I want in the future to feel and show up

[50:28] in these moments? Like what does a

[50:30] little courage look like? even when I'm

[50:32] a little afraid. I don't have to do it

[50:34] right now. But if you can start to

[50:36] imagine

[50:38] what you want to feel like in those

[50:40] moments, then you can find opportunities

[50:43] to practice that in little moments where

[50:45] you're not as shut down. Is that what

[50:46] you're saying?

[50:47] >> In the same way that someone who loves

[50:49] you would like the person who's going to

[50:51] be like, "All right, Kelly, you don't

[50:53] want to get on that plane, but I know

[50:54] you can do it. You've done like really

[50:57] hard things before. uh I trust you and

[51:01] you want this, you can do it. You know,

[51:03] you can talk to yourself in the same way

[51:05] as someone who cares because you are

[51:06] someone who cares about you

[51:08] >> and then it can move from protection to

[51:10] encouraging

[51:12] >> and then and curiosity about what is

[51:13] possible. And so often hopelessness or

[51:17] despair is trying to get you to give up.

[51:21] >> And in some situations that could be a

[51:23] functional response.

[51:26] But how we often we often end up

[51:28] generalizing like if it was just saying

[51:30] give up on this job like this specific

[51:33] move on to the next or there's something

[51:35] better waiting for you move. If that

[51:37] were how we felt hopelessness it would

[51:39] be more useful. But how we often feel it

[51:42] is we just transfer it to life.

[51:44] >> We're like it's time to give up on life

[51:47] or it's time to give up on the belief

[51:49] that things will get better

[51:50] >> or my dreams. Oh, I think a lot of

[51:51] people are there. So I think this is

[51:53] important. Okay. And what I like about

[51:56] what you're saying

[51:57] >> is the mis the the mistake if I parse

[52:00] through this

[52:01] >> is that if you're feeling hopeless or

[52:03] discouraged like this isn't worth it,

[52:05] it's never going to get better, which a

[52:07] lot of people do

[52:08] >> and then you go wide

[52:11] and you look around and you say nothing

[52:15] is going to matter. There's nothing that

[52:17] I can do.

[52:18] >> Yeah. Then you've taken an emotion

[52:20] that's trying to give you a signal from

[52:22] intelligence

[52:24] >> and you've made it way too broad.

[52:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. And so instead of like

[52:27] trying to pull your like it could be

[52:29] hopeless to stay in a a relationship

[52:31] that is very harmful to you. Of course

[52:34] >> that relationship may not change

[52:36] >> the the but there is hope that you can

[52:40] get out. Here's what I'm hearing from

[52:41] you and I think this is really actually

[52:44] helpful. Hopelessness is a signal that

[52:48] the way you're approaching this doesn't

[52:50] work.

[52:50] >> Yeah.

[52:51] >> And you should change the approach

[52:54] rather than the goal.

[52:55] >> Yeah.

[52:56] >> And so if the approach if what you want

[52:57] is to be loved but you're in a

[52:59] relationship that's hopeless, staying in

[53:01] that relationship won't give you what

[53:02] you want. You have to change your

[53:03] approach.

[53:04] >> There's a like flexibility as a response

[53:06] to hopelessness is a very helpful

[53:08] response. That is to not give up on what

[53:11] you want or what you care about.

[53:13] >> Just change the way you're approaching

[53:14] it. Because if you've sent 300 rs on an

[53:17] online platform and got nothing back, of

[53:19] course you're going to feel hopeless.

[53:20] But what the signal is saying is, "Hey,

[53:23] ding ding ding. This strategy isn't

[53:25] working

[53:27] >> and let's get creative about how how we

[53:29] can approach how you want to get

[53:31] better."

[53:32] >> And sometimes it's actions like you have

[53:34] to try something different. But you

[53:35] know, when I used to advise a lot of

[53:37] freshmen at Stanford, um they would

[53:39] often come in feeling hopeless like the

[53:41] first time they fail an exam or when

[53:43] they realize they can't actually be

[53:44] premed and they have this sense that um

[53:48] like there's only one way for them to

[53:50] have a good life or a happy life or make

[53:52] other people proud. And I always felt

[53:55] like my job was like there are so many

[53:57] ways to have a life where you

[53:59] contribute. There are so many ways to

[54:01] have a life where you wake up and you

[54:03] enjoy yourself that day.

[54:05] The opportunities to have a life worth

[54:06] living are vast. And I, you know, when

[54:10] you're feeling hopeless, the more you

[54:13] fixate on the specific version you

[54:16] thought had to be, that is when the

[54:18] hopelessness is, it becomes

[54:20] overwhelming. And also, you can since

[54:22] we're talking about emotions here, so if

[54:24] you're feeling hopelessness, you can

[54:27] also use your capacity for hope as a

[54:29] resource.

[54:29] >> Tell me how. And there's great, you

[54:31] know, like I love global research

[54:32] because I always feel like sometimes

[54:33] studies will like look at one small

[54:35] sample and who knows if this is really a

[54:37] human thing or just like a thing for

[54:39] that group. So there's a a study called

[54:41] the um the is it the hope project um

[54:45] where they asked people all over the

[54:46] world what is what is a source of hope

[54:49] for you when life is hard?

[54:51] >> And the there were very common themes

[54:53] but one of the biggest sources of hope

[54:55] two of the biggest sources of hope were

[54:57] doing something to help someone else.

[54:58] Actually, let me give you three. Doing

[55:00] something to help someone else, being

[55:02] thanked by someone you helped, or seeing

[55:06] somebody else do something to help

[55:08] someone. Now, look, all of those are

[55:10] possible when you're feeling hopeless.

[55:13] Um, I always say one of the the most

[55:15] underappreciated acts of kindness you

[55:18] can do or acts of courage or joy or hope

[55:22] is to let somebody else help you.

[55:24] Because in the moment you let someone

[55:26] help you, you receiving receiving the

[55:29] support of someone is another source of

[55:31] hope. But then that person feels better.

[55:34] They feel more hopeful. You have an

[55:36] opportunity to thank them for helping

[55:37] you. That's a huge source of hope. And

[55:39] you make hope possible for you and for

[55:41] the person who helped you. And then if

[55:43] you can help someone else out, it's just

[55:44] another way into that cycle. Well, and I

[55:47] think it's important to be reminded as

[55:49] you're listening or watching this that

[55:51] your brain is wired to pick up signals

[55:53] that you're doing this because when your

[55:54] brain sees you doing these acts of good

[55:57] >> or appreciating them or allowing other

[55:59] people to help you,

[56:00] >> it reminds you that you're good. It

[56:02] reminds you that life is worth living,

[56:04] it's this kind of throughine that gets

[56:06] you to

[56:08] >> use these resources in you to get you

[56:10] through this. and you by doing this or

[56:13] making a choice and that's another one

[56:14] of these free resources, the choices you

[56:16] make. So let's give an example of how to

[56:18] use the power of a choice.

[56:20] >> Yeah, I think you know there are certain

[56:23] um I often talk about acts of joy. There

[56:25] are things you do that make joy possible

[56:28] for yourself or for others. And by that

[56:30] I really mean you can do things that

[56:32] make people feel connected or less alone

[56:35] or yourself. You can create a sense of

[56:37] meaning. you can create a moment where

[56:39] people have something to laugh about.

[56:41] >> And so, in a simple version could be um

[56:44] I'm going to do something to put

[56:46] something beautiful in the world that

[56:47] might surprise someone if you're

[56:49] somebody who responds to beauty.

[56:51] >> Um or I'm going to send somebody a note

[56:54] to encourage them and let them know that

[56:55] I'm thinking about them.

[56:57] >> Um and these are these are acts that you

[57:00] don't have to feel you don't have to

[57:02] feel joyful. You don't have to feel

[57:04] hopeful. You just have to think, I'm

[57:06] going to do something where I know the

[57:08] most likely consequence is

[57:11] joy, hope, meaning, connection. And if

[57:14] you if you do that, almost always you

[57:17] end up being the recipient of it

[57:18] yourself, too, because the person you

[57:20] encourage is going to be encouraged and

[57:22] they'll respond in a way that makes you

[57:24] feel good or you'll delight in imagining

[57:27] or seeing somebody else understand that

[57:29] you went out of your way to, you know,

[57:31] make their day better or to give them

[57:33] something to laugh about. It just

[57:34] occurred to me that another choice that

[57:36] is a free resource is to do any one of

[57:38] the things you're recommending.

[57:39] >> Yeah.

[57:40] >> Because then by choosing to do it,

[57:43] >> you're reminding yourself that you're

[57:44] capable and you have a bit of agency

[57:46] right now.

[57:48] >> What you pay attention to, what you

[57:50] bring to mind, what you do with your

[57:52] body, music, all of it.

[57:55] >> And the final free resource is your

[57:58] relationship. How would you recommend

[58:00] that you think about the relationships

[58:04] in your life as a resource

[58:09] to help you through the very challenging

[58:13] moments? Because I I've been struck by

[58:15] the number of people that write in and

[58:17] say they don't have anybody.

[58:18] >> Yeah. And I don't know that that's true.

[58:24] It may feel like it's true.

[58:25] >> It often feels like it's true. You know,

[58:28] when I think about using relationships

[58:30] as a resource, they're really like

[58:32] there's two directions. So, you're

[58:34] pointing to a willingness to ask for

[58:37] help or let people know what's going on.

[58:40] That's very difficult for me. I mean, I

[58:42] was really brought up to believe that

[58:45] you are not supposed to be a burden. So

[58:48] sometimes um I think one of the ways you

[58:51] use your relationships as resources is

[58:54] you actually invite the possibility that

[58:57] people in your life want to be there for

[58:59] you and that it actually is it's not

[59:02] just a gift to yourself, but it's a gift

[59:05] to other people. And if you feel like

[59:07] you don't have close friends or family

[59:09] that you can rely on, it's amazing.

[59:11] There are people who might be around you

[59:13] who've been through something similar

[59:15] and are waiting to turn that horrible

[59:18] experience into a source of meaning for

[59:20] themselves. I see this happen all the

[59:21] time. I teach at a community center. I

[59:24] see people who were strangers. Suddenly,

[59:26] when one person is honest and says, "I'm

[59:28] going through grief. I'm going through

[59:30] cancer treatment. I'm going through a

[59:32] divorce." somebody else who's been

[59:34] through that, who was a stranger,

[59:36] suddenly becomes somebody who wants to

[59:38] show up for that person with moral

[59:40] support, advice, resources. And so part

[59:42] of it is maybe have the idea that there

[59:45] are people who if you just start being

[59:46] more transparent about what you're going

[59:48] through, there are people who want to be

[59:51] there for you because they care about

[59:52] you. But also, there are going to be

[59:54] people who it makes their life more

[59:57] meaningful and easier to deal with it

[59:58] because they're able to turn that into

[1:00:00] an opportunity to connect with or help

[1:00:02] you.

[1:00:02] >> I think it's very common to not want to

[1:00:04] feel like you're burdening somebody

[1:00:05] else. And I remember um my dad had a

[1:00:10] health incident a couple years ago and

[1:00:12] when they finally figured out what it

[1:00:16] was, which was an intact brain aneurysm

[1:00:19] that was going to require him to have a

[1:00:21] major surgery at um and my parents had

[1:00:26] been dealing with this for a month

[1:00:27] before they told me and my brother. And

[1:00:28] I remember them saying, "We didn't want

[1:00:30] to worry you." And I was actually mad.

[1:00:33] >> Yeah. because I felt like you by wanting

[1:00:38] to protect me denied me the opportunity

[1:00:40] to love you and support you through

[1:00:42] this.

[1:00:43] >> Yeah.

[1:00:43] >> And I understand both sides of it,

[1:00:46] >> but because I've always been the kind of

[1:00:48] person

[1:00:49] >> that,

[1:00:50] >> you know, doesn't want to ask for help,

[1:00:51] doesn't want to burden people, but when

[1:00:53] I really experience this feeling of,

[1:00:55] wait,

[1:00:56] >> but I didn't get to support you. Yeah.

[1:00:58] >> I love you. Like, like I want the

[1:01:01] opportunity to do that for you. makes me

[1:01:03] like upset that you went through that

[1:01:04] alone and felt like

[1:01:07] like it was a burden to tell me like

[1:01:10] it's generous in my opinion

[1:01:13] >> to share with people what you're going

[1:01:15] through.

[1:01:16] >> Yeah.

[1:01:17] >> And to really allow them in.

[1:01:20] >> Yeah. It's interesting. There's the

[1:01:22] sense of not wanting to be a burden when

[1:01:23] things are bad. And then people also

[1:01:26] have a fear of not wanting to brag when

[1:01:29] things are going well. And they're like

[1:01:31] two sides of the same coin. Just like

[1:01:34] you were saying, you can deprive someone

[1:01:36] of the opportunity to be there for you

[1:01:38] in your worst moments. And so, one of

[1:01:41] the ways we use our relationships as a

[1:01:43] resource

[1:01:44] uh for all of us, I mean, if you're

[1:01:47] going to use your relationships as a

[1:01:48] resource, you really need to be in that

[1:01:49] mindset of interdependence because it's

[1:01:52] not just for you. It's for the

[1:01:53] relationship. you are letting people be

[1:01:55] there for you strengthens the

[1:01:57] relationship and also you are helping

[1:01:59] the person you're in a relationship

[1:02:00] with. So if you're going to try to use

[1:02:02] your relationships as a resource, you

[1:02:04] really got to get into that mindset that

[1:02:05] actually it's bigger than you and that

[1:02:07] can make it easier to ask for help. But

[1:02:09] also it can make it easier to recognize

[1:02:12] that people want to be there for you and

[1:02:13] your good moments too. Well, I want to

[1:02:15] read to you from your best-selling book,

[1:02:17] Joy is a risk worth taking. I am on

[1:02:20] chapter 7 and this is page 167. People

[1:02:24] don't want to be alone in their

[1:02:26] happiness.

[1:02:27] >> Yes.

[1:02:27] >> And you write about this. Someone else's

[1:02:30] happiness can make you genuinely happy.

[1:02:32] And the person you are happy for can

[1:02:34] receive your joy as evidence that you

[1:02:36] care about them. Importantly, humans

[1:02:38] crave company in their best moments as

[1:02:40] much as we need comfort in our worst

[1:02:42] moments. When something positive

[1:02:44] happens, people don't want to be alone

[1:02:46] in their joy. They want others to

[1:02:49] celebrate with them. Your ability to

[1:02:51] support others in this way is as

[1:02:53] important as your ability to offer

[1:02:55] compassion to somebody who is

[1:02:58] struggling. Taking joy in other people's

[1:03:01] happiness is also a rich source of

[1:03:04] pleasure, meaning connection for you.

[1:03:08] Yes. How do you do that? Um especially

[1:03:11] when you're struggling. When people ask

[1:03:13] me what's the single most important

[1:03:15] thing I could do if I want more joy in

[1:03:17] my life, I give them a mantra. Meet joy

[1:03:20] with joy. You have to actually treat

[1:03:22] other people's joy like a signal that is

[1:03:26] your opportunity to connect with them

[1:03:29] and strengthen that relationship. So, it

[1:03:30] really kind of starts with a goal,

[1:03:32] right?

[1:03:33] Taking joy in other people's happiness

[1:03:36] is about strengthening relationships and

[1:03:39] letting other people know that they

[1:03:41] matter, that their happiness matters,

[1:03:43] and that you care about them. How do you

[1:03:45] do that if you're miserable? Like, how

[1:03:47] do you do that if you're struggling

[1:03:50] >> or your kid is the one struggling and it

[1:03:53] is falling behind in life or like not

[1:03:57] thriving, they're not going to prom,

[1:03:59] they're not graduating. Like, how do you

[1:04:01] do that? And what does it give back?

[1:04:03] >> So you're talking like in a situation

[1:04:04] where your kid is struggling

[1:04:06] >> or you're struggling and a friend is

[1:04:07] thriving. Like I've spent a decade of my

[1:04:09] life not being happy for other people

[1:04:10] because I was not happy in my life and I

[1:04:12] felt like their happiness

[1:04:16] just reminded me of how miserable I was.

[1:04:18] That's that's because it's activating

[1:04:20] envy, right? Which is another emotion

[1:04:23] that has a function that often goes goes

[1:04:25] ary, right? It's meant to remind you of

[1:04:28] what you really want,

[1:04:30] >> but too often it triggers these feelings

[1:04:32] of comparison.

[1:04:33] >> Yes.

[1:04:33] >> Or sense like I'm I'm falling behind in

[1:04:36] life and a real like there's a real

[1:04:38] sadness, the sadness of envy, like why

[1:04:41] does this person have this experience

[1:04:43] and why can't I? I want this. It can

[1:04:45] even be grief if you think it's not

[1:04:46] possible for you.

[1:04:47] >> I mean, you went to the really hard

[1:04:49] place. I always do

[1:04:51] >> the

[1:04:53] in those moments if it's if it's a

[1:04:55] friend or a family member who's

[1:04:57] experiencing something that you long for

[1:04:58] and you don't have.

[1:04:59] >> It could be I can't get pregnant. My

[1:05:01] friend is pregnant. I want to be married

[1:05:03] and I'm still the single one at all the

[1:05:04] weddings.

[1:05:05] >> Yeah. Um you have to in that moment make

[1:05:09] a decision about whether you value that

[1:05:12] relationship. You don't have to start by

[1:05:15] trying to force yourself to feel happy

[1:05:16] for them. Right? It's a mistake to be

[1:05:18] like, I should be happy for them. I'm

[1:05:20] just going to be happy for them. You

[1:05:22] have to go to the thing that actually

[1:05:24] will allow your happiness to emerge

[1:05:27] authentically. You have to think, I care

[1:05:29] about this person. I want this person to

[1:05:33] be able to enjoy it to know that

[1:05:35] actually probably the people in your

[1:05:36] life, they're going to be aware of this.

[1:05:38] Um, they may be trying to hide their

[1:05:41] happiness from you to not hurt you.

[1:05:43] >> And it's it I mean it works both ways.

[1:05:46] Like there's it's not like they're

[1:05:48] trying to rub it in. There is probably

[1:05:50] people understand the complexity of this

[1:05:52] type of situation. So you can go to the

[1:05:55] part of yourself who values the

[1:05:56] relationship or wants the other person

[1:05:59] who also has suffered but in different

[1:06:01] ways, right? Maybe they are pregnant now

[1:06:03] but they also lost a family member

[1:06:05] recently or they're struggling at work.

[1:06:08] We all have the the zones of suffering,

[1:06:10] right? And how important it is for this

[1:06:12] person to be able to appreciate this

[1:06:14] good thing and feel supported in it. You

[1:06:16] have to go to that motivation. It has to

[1:06:18] be real.

[1:06:19] >> And then if you connect to that

[1:06:20] motivation, then what you do is you

[1:06:23] express something as authentically as

[1:06:25] you can. Again, don't try to fix your

[1:06:27] feeling first. Go to an expression. I'm

[1:06:30] so happy for you. Tell me more about it.

[1:06:33] I want to be there. Don't skip the

[1:06:35] shower or the wedding because you know

[1:06:37] it's going to bring up mixed feelings

[1:06:38] for you. You have to trust that you are

[1:06:41] strong enough to tolerate those mixed

[1:06:43] feelings and that you want the

[1:06:46] opportunity to also experience the

[1:06:48] connection of being there. We talked

[1:06:50] about that life is not perfect and it's

[1:06:52] not about happiness. that there's this

[1:06:55] huge range of the heartbreak and the

[1:06:58] joy, the sunsets and the funerals, that

[1:07:02] everything that you've been teaching us

[1:07:05] helps us move through it.

[1:07:07] >> Mhm.

[1:07:07] >> And access these signals of meaning and

[1:07:11] joy and purpose.

[1:07:13] >> That's the thing. If you do it right, if

[1:07:15] you there's a going to be a part of you

[1:07:16] that wants to distance yourself.

[1:07:17] >> Yes.

[1:07:18] >> To be away from their happiness is

[1:07:20] because it's going to hurt you. Yes. But

[1:07:21] if you prioritize the relationship and

[1:07:24] you show up in some way, you send the

[1:07:26] text message, you go to the event, you

[1:07:29] call them up, whatever it is, and you do

[1:07:31] your best to meet their joy with joy,

[1:07:35] um, you will receive a signal back that

[1:07:38] makes you feel connected to that person,

[1:07:40] that makes you feel thing is when you

[1:07:42] connect in that way, then you you also

[1:07:44] feel less alone in what you're going

[1:07:47] through. Even though it feels like that

[1:07:49] can't be possible, you could feel

[1:07:50] connected to a friend who is pregnant

[1:07:52] when you are grieving the fact that you

[1:07:54] cannot have a child. And that feeling

[1:07:56] connected to them can make you feel less

[1:07:59] alone in the fact that you can't have a

[1:08:01] child even though it seems like that so

[1:08:04] illogical that that could happen. So to

[1:08:06] prioritize that connection and do your

[1:08:08] best um you will [clears throat] receive

[1:08:10] signals back to you that that bolster

[1:08:14] your own sense that you can get through

[1:08:15] what you're going through or that you

[1:08:18] can get what you want. Well, it makes

[1:08:20] sense to me that if you want more joy in

[1:08:23] your life that shutting down and closing

[1:08:26] yourself off from moments of joy is

[1:08:29] going to not help you feel joy. You've

[1:08:31] got to meet joy with joy. So Dr.

[1:08:34] McGonagal, if the person who's listening

[1:08:36] or watching takes one

[1:08:39] thing away from this conversation, what

[1:08:42] is the most important thing?

[1:08:46] I think the most important thing you can

[1:08:48] take away is that joy is not selfish.

[1:08:53] That joy is a profound act of care for

[1:08:59] yourself and collective care. It is a

[1:09:01] way of supporting yourself through hard

[1:09:03] times. It is absolutely possible even

[1:09:06] when life is hard. And that this

[1:09:09] capacity for joy that you have, even if

[1:09:13] it feels diminished, is still in you.

[1:09:17] >> What are your parting words?

[1:09:20] >> One of my most meaningful memories as a

[1:09:22] student was this exercise where the

[1:09:25] teacher had everyone in the room think

[1:09:27] about what they really needed to hear,

[1:09:29] what they really hoped was true. who

[1:09:31] they wanted to believe and then she just

[1:09:34] simply said it back to that person. And

[1:09:36] so I think when I think about what

[1:09:38] people have shared with me, the the

[1:09:40] fears that they have, I just want to say

[1:09:43] some things that I know are true that

[1:09:46] maybe are hard for you to feel as true,

[1:09:49] but some part of you also knows they're

[1:09:51] true. You are capable of joy and you

[1:09:56] deserve joy.

[1:09:58] that

[1:10:00] your joy can be a source of joy to

[1:10:03] others

[1:10:06] that you are

[1:10:08] that your existence in this world is a

[1:10:11] good thing and a source of joy.

[1:10:15] Dr. McGonagle,

[1:10:17] your existence in this world [laughter]

[1:10:20] is a source of joy.

[1:10:23] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your

[1:10:26] research, for your work, for getting on

[1:10:29] a plane, for pouring into us, and for

[1:10:34] teaching us how to tap into this wiring

[1:10:38] and these resources inside of us to

[1:10:41] experience more joy in our life. And I

[1:10:43] also want to say thank you. Thank you to

[1:10:46] you for making the time to devour this

[1:10:49] episode. I hope that's what you did with

[1:10:51] it. I hope it hit you in your DNA and

[1:10:54] then you send this to everybody in your

[1:10:56] life that you care about. This was so

[1:11:00] remarkable. I'm so joyful about it. And

[1:11:03] here's why. There is no doubt in my mind

[1:11:05] that everything that you just learned

[1:11:08] will make your life better and more

[1:11:10] meaningful and it will give you a

[1:11:13] lifeline to help yourself through the

[1:11:16] very challenging and difficult times.

[1:11:19] And I'm excited for you to have this as

[1:11:21] a resource to come back to and to be

[1:11:24] reminded of the power that you have

[1:11:26] inside of yourself to live a beautiful

[1:11:30] life despite how it may feel right now.

[1:11:32] And in case nobody else tells you, I

[1:11:34] wanted to be sure to tell you as your

[1:11:35] friend that I love you and I believe in

[1:11:37] you. You are capable of joy and you can

[1:11:41] create a better life. And the tools that

[1:11:43] you learn today will help you do that

[1:11:45] starting today in the day-to-day

[1:11:47] moments. And that's where you build a

[1:11:50] life. [music] All righty. I will see you

[1:11:52] in the very next episode. I'm going to

[1:11:54] welcome you in the moment you hit play.

[1:11:56] All righty. And thank you for watching

[1:11:58] all the way to the end here on YouTube.

[1:12:00] I love being here with you. Thank you

[1:12:02] for being a subscriber. It's the single

[1:12:04] best way you can say thank you to me and

[1:12:06] the team and all these extraordinary

[1:12:07] experts. And I know you want to watch

[1:12:09] another episode of the Mel Robbins

[1:12:11] Podcast. You're going to love this one.

[1:12:12] And I will welcome you in the moment you

[1:12:15] hit play.

ArtistMel Robbins

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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

What does research say about what actually brings people joy?

McGonigal's research across cultures shows joy comes from four consistent sources: feeling connected to someone (especially through laughter), doing something that makes you feel good about yourself, noticing something beautiful or wonderful in the world, and being fully present in an activity or moment you love. These are accessible daily, not dependent on major life events.

Can you feel joy even when life is hard or there are real problems?

Yes. McGonigal teaches that joy is not the reward you get when everything is perfect—it's the biological lift available to you even in difficult circumstances. People in war zones, hospitals, and hospices report finding moments of laughter, connection, and beauty. Joy and struggle can coexist.

How does movement affect mood according to the research?

Movement triggers the release of endorphins and endocannabinoids—what McGonigal calls 'hope molecules.' You don't need intense exercise; a walk with your dog, dancing in your kitchen, or a brief movement practice releases these mood-elevating compounds and shifts your physiology.

What's the difference between the two types of despair McGonigal describes?

One is looking outward at a chaotic world and feeling despair about conditions. The other—often unspoken—is wondering alone whether you matter, whether what you do makes a difference, or if anyone knows you're here. Recognizing both helps address loneliness and existential discouragement.

Can reframing stress actually change how my body responds to it?

Yes. When you interpret stress as information that something you care about is at stake—rather than as a threat—your body's response changes. Your cardiovascular system becomes more efficient and your mind sharper. This reframe is backed by research on stress physiology.

What are the three sources of hope McGonigal identifies?

First, remembering times you've handled difficult things before (evidence of your capacity). Second, recognizing people who care about you and are actually there for you. Third, noticing that you have agency—that you can make choices and take actions that matter.

How do you train your brain to notice more good in the world?

Your brain is wired to notice threat, so you must deliberately practice attention to what's beautiful, kind, or working. This becomes more powerful when done with others—noticing together builds both individual awareness and shared connection.