Transcript
[0:00] Today on the Mel Robbins Podcast,
[0:03] legendary author John Grisham.
[0:06] 500 million books sold,
nine feature films,
[0:10] decades of global success.
[0:12] But John Grisham's story
began with rejection.
[0:15] 20 Submissions go to New York. They
came right back. Rejection, rejection,
[0:20] rejection.
[0:21] He's sharing stories from
his remarkable career.
[0:24] You got to show up every day.
[0:26] Every job you ever have is
material for the rest of your life.
[0:29] You learn lessons from all of them.
[0:30] And how one golden moment can
transform your entire life.
[0:36] Stop talking about it. Don't tell
folks what you're going to do.
[0:38] Sit down and write a page every day.
[0:48] Please help me welcome the one, the only,
[0:50] the legendary John Grisham
to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
[0:54] Happy to be here, Mel. Good seeing you.
[0:56] I am thrilled to meet you in person.
[0:58] I'm thrilled to meet you in person.
[1:00] And the reason why I'm so
thrilled is because 35 years ago,
[1:05] it was 1991, and I was here in Boston.
[1:08] I was in my first year of law
school at Boston College Law School.
[1:13] I was absolutely miserable.
[1:17] I had gone to law school because a bunch
of my friends were starting to go off
[1:21] to different schools and I had a part-time
job as a paralegal, which I hated.
[1:26] But for some reason I applied to law
school because I didn't know what else to
[1:29] do. I get there and I realize
I have made a huge mistake.
[1:33] I hated every aspect of it. I
cried all the time. I drank a lot.
[1:38] And somebody told me that there
was this book that had come out
[1:42] and I picked up a copy because
I hated doing the academic work.
[1:48] It was the firm. It was your book.
[1:51] I bet I stayed up two nights in
a row reading this thing. And
[1:56] the reason why it changed my life is
because when I found out that you were a
[2:00] lawyer,
[2:01] I couldn't believe that
you were both a lawyer
[2:06] and that you could write such
an extraordinary fiction story.
[2:11] And it gave me this epiphany.
I though, oh, wait a minute.
[2:14] I don't have to practice law.
I could do something else.
[2:20] And that was the beginning of me making a
[2:24] huge pivot. I stayed in law school.
[2:26] I actually did become a public defender
in New York City for a couple of years,
[2:31] and then I ultimately left
the law a couple years later.
[2:34] But I've always thought about
that moment that you don't have
[2:39] to stay who you are and what
you are for the rest of your
[2:44] life,
[2:45] that at any moment you can decide that
you want to do something different.
[2:49] And I will tell you right now,
[2:51] I would not be doing what I do
today if it weren't for you.
[2:58] So thank you.
[3:00] That's very touching. And
[3:05] I've heard similar stories over the years
and still found them hard to believe
[3:11] because when I started writing
the firm almost 40 years ago,
[3:16] I had no idea what I was doing. I
had the story. I knew I could write.
[3:23] I had no idea what was coming. I
had no idea. We were so young and
[3:29] still a lawyer and still having fun
and having babies and life was good.
[3:35] And it was a little serious
part-time hobby, writing was.
[3:39] I'd finished the first book in
87, trying to get it published,
[3:45] and my wife had always
loved the story of the firm.
[3:49] I talked about it for
years, not as a writer.
[3:52] It's based on something that
really happened in law school.
[3:55] For the person who's listening,
John, who hasn't read The Firm,
[3:58] and I'm just going to warn you,
[4:00] don't buy this book if you want to sleep
tonight because if you pick this book
[4:04] up,
[4:05] there is no way you are going to go to
bed because you will just keep turning
[4:09] the page and turning the
page and turning the page.
[4:11] But put them at the scene of what the
book is about and what inspired it.
[4:16] It goes back to law school.
[4:18] When I was in law school at
Ole Miss in the early 80s,
[4:23] I was not heavily recruited by law firms.
[4:26] I knew I was going back to my hometown.
[4:29] I was going to marry my sweetheart
from my hometown. I did 45 years ago.
[4:34] And I knew I was going to open up
my own little shop and practice law.
[4:38] I didn't like any of
the law firms in town.
[4:39] I didn't really want to go to work
for them. And so I didn't interview.
[4:44] I didn't really care. I
also was not a top student,
[4:47] so there was no great
demand for my interviews.
[4:52] A close friend was a top student and he
would go off on the weekends during our
[4:57] senior year in law school and he would
go to visit a regional law firm in
[5:01] Houston or Kansas City or Memphis
or New Orleans, all in the south,
[5:04] Memphis. And he would come
back and we sort of vicariously
[5:09] lived through him. What was the
firm like? What are they offering?
[5:12] How much money? What are the
perks? What's the practice?
[5:16] And he would tell us about these law
firms. And he came back one weekend.
[5:19] We were all sitting around probably
drinking beer in our favorite bar,
[5:23] and he said, "I visited a weird
law firm last weekend." H said,
[5:26] "I got the impression that
once you join that firm,
[5:29] you never really left like it was
owned by the mafia or something,
[5:34] a tax firm." And I just
stuck. That was 1980.
[5:39] I wasn't thinking about being a writer.
I was trying to finish law school,
[5:42] but the story was always there and
I didn't like a lot of stories.
[5:45] They hang around.
[5:46] Most of them are based on something that
really happened still today after all
[5:49] these books.
And
[5:53] so I had the story and as I was
writing A Time to Kill, my first novel,
[5:58] which is a tough book to write, tough
book to read, tough book to get through,
[6:03] I wanted something that would
be more fun to write and read.
[6:07] And I'd always pitch the story to
Renee and she's a sounding board and
[6:12] she's always said, "I love
that story. I love that story.
[6:15] I love that story." And so
that's how the firm got started.
[6:18] And as soon as I finished A Time to Kill,
writing A Time to Kill in early 1987,
[6:23] I went straight to the
firm and we used to laugh.
[6:26] We thought the firm was just sort of a
[6:30] simple title that would never
stick, but funny to say that now,
[6:34] but I started writing the firm right
after I wrote the first book and
[6:40] it took two years to write it.
And then when it came out in 35 years ago,
[6:45] well, it changed the world. I mean,
[6:47] our world was upside down
and has been ever since.
[6:52] I want to hover in one detail of that
story because I think it's really an
[6:56] interesting thing to explore and I'd
love to hear your perspective on it.
[7:00] So it's 1980 and you have
a friend in law school who
[7:05] comes back and just says one
sentence after being at that firm is
[7:10] kind of weird,
[7:10] kind of feels like it might be the
kind of law firm that you never leave.
[7:14] You never leave. Yeah.
[7:17] Do you think about that moment
and what's your opinion about
[7:22] ideas and about the things
in life that are sort of
[7:27] planted in front of you and
whether or not you're even
[7:32] aware of them or if you think there's
some sort of divine ordering to it?
[7:36] You know what I mean?
[7:37] Because it feels like one of these
things that could have been a blip that
[7:41] turned into nothing,
[7:42] and I tend to be the kind of person that
thinks that there are these signs all
[7:46] around you if you're awake enough
to see them or little threads
[7:51] that you weave together throughout
your life that make sense later.
[7:56] I'm not sure. I'm not sure I buy that,
[8:00] that there are things that are
out there waiting for you to see.
[8:05] I have a real
[8:07] knack for a story and I
grew up with storytellers.
[8:13] My father, my grandfather,
uncles were big storytellers.
[8:17] These are farm people in rural Arkansas
when I was a kid and would sit on the
[8:22] front porch at night in the heat and
listen to the Cardinals game on the radio
[8:27] and listen to stories, all these
stories that probably were all fiction,
[8:32] but they sure were good.
[8:33] They've been polished for
years and worked on for years.
[8:36] I just always enjoyed the
wild stories or funny stories.
[8:41] And as a kid, I was an avid reader.
[8:46] My mother did not really
like television even in 1960.
[8:50] And so we went to the library all
the time and got books and we read,
[8:55] she read to us and I just grew up
reading a lot and loving the idea
[9:00] of a good story.
And I guess
[9:05] that's where the I comes from,
[9:06] the talent to be able to spot
something almost immediately and say,
[9:11] and I do this almost weekly,
you hear a story and say,
[9:15] "That's got potential." And
when I hear these great stories,
[9:20] I'll make a note and the
notebook is always full.
[9:25] Most of them don't work
for various reasons.
[9:27] Most of them kind of go away with
time. They're all brilliant initially,
[9:33] but the brilliance kind of rubs
off, but the good ones stick.
[9:38] The good ones stick.
[9:39] Well, what's super cool about stories,
[9:41] when you think about the intersection of
your work and the intersection of mine,
[9:47] and my work is really about
empowering people to see bigger
[9:51] possibilities and giving them a
sense of hope and encouragement that
[9:56] they could do little things that
could make their life or their
[10:00] relationships feel better and that
they could do better over time.
[10:05] The power of stories is that it
allows you to escape your current life
[10:10] and actually imagine something else,
[10:13] which is what you did for me in 1991,
[10:17] that I could escape the misery
of, "I hate this law school.
[10:20] I've made a huge mistake.
[10:22] I've now got these loans and I'm
trapped here and I hate these people and
[10:27] what the hell am I going to do?"
And that story just opened up
[10:32] a different possibility,
[10:33] even though I wasn't thinking about being
an associate that would go to a firm
[10:36] where people never leave and then discover
that the mafia actually is involved
[10:40] and then have the FBI on my case as
I'm running from them with my wife.
[10:44] You got to love fiction. Oh.
[10:45] My God. Well, I've never written fiction,
[10:48] but I love fiction because you step
[10:52] outside yourself.
And so if someone who is listening right
[10:57] now feels just like I did,
[10:59] and I know you've probably felt a little
bit this way in certain twists and
[11:02] turns of your life,
[11:03] where you are in a chapter
of your life and you
[11:09] feel trapped and you don't
know what to do next,
[11:13] what do you think they're going to learn
from the various stories you're going
[11:17] to tell us and the wisdom that we're
going to talk about that you've learned
[11:20] through your life and your work?
[11:24] You got to keep working.
[11:26] You can't be smothered with doubt
or depression or fear or whatever.
[11:32] You got to keep working.
[11:33] I learned a very valuable lesson
when I was writing A Time to Kill,
[11:37] and this is back in the dark ages
where I knew nothing about writing.
[11:42] It was all written in
hand on legal pads. And
[11:48] I showed the first chapter to my wife
one night and she had no idea what I was
[11:52] doing. She knew I could write because
she saved all of our love letters.
[11:56] She still has them, but
she knew I could write.
[12:00] She knew I could tell stories, but I
had never thought about being a writer.
[12:03] I was 30 years old and she saw
the first chapter and said,
[12:08] "This is pretty good. I'd like to
read some more." I said, "Okay,
[12:12] I'll go write some more.
[12:13] I don't have another chapter. Let me go
write chapter two." And that went on for
[12:17] a while, but back in those days, I
did not know what I was doing. But
[12:23] one of the first lessons I learned
was that you have to do a little
[12:28] bit every day or it's
not going to get done.
[12:33] I'd take a week off and I was losing
sleep writing the book because I was up
[12:38] at five in the morning.
[12:39] Well, I lost sleep
reading it, so we're even.
[12:43] Yeah. Well, I'm not losing
sleep now, but I did back then.
[12:48] But I realized, and I
probably read this somewhere,
[12:52] write a page a day. I said it a
thousand times. Write one page.
[12:56] If you're serious about writing
anything, stop talking about it.
[13:01] Don't talk your book to death. Don't
tell folks what you're going to do.
[13:04] Sit down and write a page
every day, at least a page.
[13:09] And it may take you 15 minutes
a day and an hour tomorrow,
[13:13] but find that time of the day,
[13:15] whether it's during lunch or whether
it's late at night or whenever,
[13:19] preferably the same time,
same spot, same coffee,
[13:22] like I still do after 50 something books.
[13:26] I don't care what your task is or
what you're thinking about doing,
[13:32] you got to show up every day. You can't
just talk about it, dream about it,
[13:36] think about it. You got to show up. Again,
[13:40] I don't care what you're doing.
[13:41] I don't care what your dream
is or what your goal is,
[13:45] but you've got to do it every day.
I learned that lesson the hard way.
[13:49] And once I started
practicing that years ago,
[13:53] 40 years ago as a rookie
lawyer trying to write a novel,
[13:58] I made myself get up at five o'clock
every morning and have time to write.
[14:02] And it took three years for the first
one, took two years for the firm.
[14:06] Over a five-year period,
[14:08] I wrote them back to back at
five o'clock in the morning.
[14:12] I also was curious because you said,
[14:14] "I learned it the hard way." I think
it would be very helpful for the person
[14:18] listening to hear how it wasn't working,
[14:23] because I think you were about to tell
us that I was trying to find a week off.
[14:26] I was trying to do it in
these big sweeps of time,
[14:27] and then I realized I just
have to do it a little a day.
[14:29] So how did you find the hard way? What
was the way you tried that was like,
[14:32] "Well, this definitely does not work?".
[14:35] The first time it happened, I had gone
a couple of weeks and written nothing.
[14:40] And my wife, I can remember
more than once said,
[14:44] "Where's the latest chapter?" And I said,
"I haven't written it yet." She said,
[14:49] "Why not?" And I said, "Okay,
[14:52] I'll get busy," because she
always loved the story. And
[14:59] I'd learned, okay, to do this,
you got to start somewhere.
[15:04] You've got to blast off at some point.
[15:06] And so I would get started again and I
would make myself do it at least one page
[15:11] a day, every day, every day. It got
easier, it got easier, it got easier.
[15:15] The thing about it, I wrote too much.
The Time to Kill, once it was typed,
[15:18] was almost a thousand pages. Oh my.
[15:20] Gosh.
[15:20] Yeah. And another lesson. I
didn't know what I was doing.
[15:25] I was not a writer. A thousand pages.
[15:27] I sold the book eventually after
a long struggle. My first editor,
[15:31] who was a great editor, cut a
third of it, and he was right.
[15:36] There was just too much junk in it. And
I though, that was a year of my life.
[15:40] The book took three years to
write. We just cut a third.
[15:44] That's a year of my life. I am
never going to do this again.
[15:46] I'm not going to waste time like this
again. When I start writing from now on,
[15:50] I'm going to know where I'm going.
I'm going to have it organized.
[15:54] I'm going to have it outlined.
[15:55] And I learned this lesson from
something John Irving said one time.
[15:59] He said he does not write the first
sentence until he writes the last one.
[16:05] I'm not that smart,
[16:06] but I don't write the first scene
until I know the last scene.
[16:10] I know where I'm going. And if you
always know where you're going,
[16:13] it's hard to get lost.
[16:14] And writers are notorious for
having these brilliant ideas and
[16:19] they can't wait to start writing.
They'll write, write, write like crazy,
[16:22] write 50,000 words and suddenly stop and
they back themselves into a corner and
[16:26] they can't get out of it. They toss it.
They're famous for doing that, okay?
[16:31] I know writers and they talk
about doing it all the time now.
[16:34] And every writer says, "Oh,
I don't believe in outlining.
[16:36] I just wait for inspiration to take
over and blah, blah, blah." Well, okay,
[16:40] that's one way to do it.
I can't do it that way.
[16:42] I've got to have it
organized and outlined.
[16:44] And you've got to be able
to pitch your idea. We're
[16:49] talking fiction here, okay?
We're talking stories.
[16:53] You have to refine the pitch
to about 30 seconds max.
[16:58] If you can't do it in 30 seconds,
you're probably in trouble.
[17:01] I pitch ideas to my wife all the time and
I have to hog tie her now and handcuff
[17:06] her,
[17:06] make her sit down and listen to me
because she's tired of it after all these
[17:09] years. But I say, "I have a great idea."
She said, "I've heard that before.
[17:13] You listen to me, okay?
[17:14] Here's the idea for a novel."
And I get 30 seconds and
[17:19] she's brutally honest. She
usually shoots them down and says,
[17:24] "No, it's not going to
work." Or occasionally she'll
like one. She'll like one.
[17:28] Well, you say you're
talking about stories,
[17:31] but as I hear you tell us about some of
the things that you've learned the hard
[17:36] way, the way that you approach
the work that you do, I hear life.
[17:40] And let me tell you what I hear.
[17:42] One page a day is a four word philosophy
[17:47] for how to create anything in your
life. And I think a lot of us,
[17:52] whether you're trying to write the whole
book in one day or one week and then
[17:56] you get discouraged,
[17:57] we do that in every aspect of our lives
where we try to make the change so big
[18:01] and happen so fast that you miss
the obvious where one page a day
[18:07] is the way to create momentum. It is
the way to make something a habit.
[18:11] It is the way to slowly start to write
[18:16] your way into a new chapter of your life.
And so that goes way beyond writing.
[18:21] But the other thing that I
thought was really interesting,
[18:23] because you were talking about pitching,
[18:25] you said you have to get the
thing down to 30 seconds.
[18:30] What you're talking about
is clarity and alignment.
[18:34] You have to pick a direction.
That's true about life too.
[18:37] I think so many people do not have what
they want because they are not clear
[18:41] about what they want.
[18:42] And.
[18:42] If you can't explain what you want in the
next chapter of your life in less than
[18:47] 30 seconds, you're going to spin. You're.
[18:49] Not going to get there.
[18:50] No, you're not going to get there.
[18:51] But then you said one other thing
that I thought was so subtle,
[18:55] but I kind of chuckled
because it really does
[18:59] metaphorically open up, I think,
[19:05] what everybody struggles
with at some point.
[19:08] You had written chapter one of the
firm, you gave it to Renee to read.
[19:14] She loved it and she said, "Where's
chapter two?" And you said,
[19:18] "I haven't written it
yet." She's like, "Well,
[19:20] I guess you better go
write it." And to me,
[19:24] that is a beautiful story about the
fact that if you ever feel stuck
[19:29] because you are just in this
chapter, even if it's ended,
[19:33] all you got to do is go write the next
one. It doesn't mean it's not coming.
[19:37] It doesn't mean it's never going to get
written. You just have to make the, oh,
[19:41] okay. I haven't done that yet.
I guess I better go do that.
[19:43] And it's kind of obvious stuff, but when
you put it in the metaphor of a book,
[19:46] because I do believe that you can
think a lot about the lifespan of your
[19:51] life like a book. And
if you're still here,
[19:56] the story hasn't ended.
[19:58] There's more to write.
I see in your story,
[20:01] there's so much overlap with some of
the things that we've experienced.
[20:04] A lot of people don't know. A lot of
people know that you've sold, what,
[20:07] 500 million books? That's
freaking cool, first of all.
[20:12] Congratulations.
[20:13] Thank you.
[20:14] You're welcome.
[20:15] Thank you.
[20:16] But that we both have had a million jobs,
[20:20] and I don't think a lot of people know,
[20:22] especially when they see you now
and they hear pelican breath. Oh,
[20:25] I saw that movie. Time to kill. Matthew
McConaughey was in that. Wait, the firm?
[20:30] What? What? I've read all of his books.
[20:33] A ton of the people that work here that
are basically the ages of our kids were
[20:36] like, "My mom has read everybody.
Dad loves him. Oh my gosh.
[20:40] We had to push people away from bringing
their parents in and their siblings in
[20:44] because you have so many fans here.
[20:47] But most people don't know
that you have laid asphalt,
[20:51] you've sold underwear,
you've transferred colleges,
[20:55] on and on and on.
[20:56] So what are some of the odd jobs
that you've had that in a weird way
[21:02] still inform you?
[21:03] All of them. Every job.
[21:05] Every job you ever have is
material for the rest of your
[21:10] life. You learn lessons from all of them.
[21:13] What'd you learn from selling underwear?
[21:17] Well, I almost got fired for that.
[21:22] The customer, it's a Sears Roebucks
store in a mall in Memphis,
[21:27] and I was a very reluctant employee.
[21:30] I was trying to go to college and
commuting and not going anywhere,
[21:33] 18 years old, drifting. And this customer,
[21:39] with Sears, the customer's always right.
[21:42] This guy brought back a three pack
of white boxer briefs, white briefs,
[21:46] not boxers, and wanted to return them.
[21:50] And the package looked suspicious.
[21:54] And I just said,
[21:57] I'm not going to take those back." And
he said, "Well, you have to." And I said,
[22:01] "Well, they look used." He said,
"Well, maybe." I said, "Look, sir,
[22:05] I'm not going to touch the underwear,
okay?" And we got kind of loud. I said,
[22:10] "I will leave now. Fire me now.
[22:11] I'm not going to take his underwear
back." And so he got loud and my boss came
[22:16] over and worked out a compromise,
[22:20] and I thought I was going to be leaving.
I was kind of hoping he'd fire me
[22:23] because I'd had enough of the
underwear. It didn't last long.
[22:26] That wasn't much of a job, but
even the tough construction jobs,
[22:30] summertime work that I had,
[22:32] laying asphalt or driving a bulldozer
or digging ditches or working for a
[22:36] plumbing company, that's all just
what you need as a kid. I was 16,
[22:41] 17, 18 years old because it
makes you appreciate college.
[22:46] It makes you realize what
you don't want in life.
[22:49] And I've got high school friends
from way back who didn't see the
[22:53] opportunity and didn't go very far,
[22:55] but I just knew I wasn't going to do that
kind of work for the rest of my life.
[22:59] I was determined. And my parents
were not college graduates.
[23:02] They did not have the opportunity,
but their dream was for us to go,
[23:06] but I was determined to get there.
It took a while to find the right one.
[23:10] But yeah, I think those
jobs are crucial to develop.
[23:14] I tell people writers have got
to, you got to try different jobs.
[23:18] You got to live different places, travel.
[23:20] You've got to have success and failure
and love and hate and all the different
[23:24] things we go through in life,
broken hearts and whatever,
[23:27] to have something to write about.
[23:29] You got to experience life
and the more varied you
[23:34] can make it, the better.
[23:37] I didn't enjoy practicing law
for 10 years. I hung in there,
[23:41] but I'm so glad I did because I would not
be a writer if I hadn't been a lawyer.
[23:46] Talk to me about writing.
[23:50] Is it true that you failed a
English class in community college?
[23:54] No, I didn't fail. I got
a D minus. I didn't fail.
[23:58] Hanging.
[23:58] On.
Well, listen,
[24:00] I had an A plus average all year.
[24:04] It was my freshman year of college,
[24:08] freshman comp and freshman literature.
[24:11] And I had a really strong
high school English teacher,
[24:15] and I was prepared for college
as far as English is concerned.
[24:19] And so the course was fairly
easy and I had straight A's
[24:24] and I was never a top student,
but I enjoyed literature.
[24:29] And
[24:32] the final exam came down to,
it was one third of our grade.
[24:37] Our term paper, which was a big deal
back then, with sources and all that,
[24:42] was one third of the grade,
[24:46] and then the other tests
in class participation.
[24:48] And so we're taking the final exam and
[24:54] we just started. And
the teacher said, "John,
[24:58] would you step out in the
hallway?" And I said, "Well,
[25:02] sure." And we stepped out in the
hallway. She had a copy of my term paper
[25:08] and she said,
[25:09] "You have a very efficient way of
words for a 19-year-old student."
[25:15] I didn't know what she was talking about.
And I said, "Well, okay,
[25:19] thank you." She said, "No,
[25:23] I haven't had many students
who could write like this." And
[25:28] I said, "Okay." And she said,
[25:29] "I think you plagiarized
this." And I said, "Oh,
[25:34] no." I said, "No, no, no. I don't have
to plagiarize. No, that's not true.
[25:40] I didn't." And she very dramatically
turned the paper around on the back of it.
[25:44] She had a big F and she gave it to me.
[25:49] And I though, "This is not fair."
[25:56] She went back in the classroom. I went
down to the men's restroom down the hall,
[26:01] and I walked in, it was empty,
and I got very emotional.
[26:05] And I was crying,
[26:08] and I was really upset by
it because it wasn't true.
[26:12] And once I pulled myself together,
[26:16] I looked in the mirror, my face
was red, my eyes were red. I said,
[26:21] "I can't go back in the
classroom like this."
[26:25] And so I waited and waited
and waited, and finally
[26:31] when the class was over,
[26:32] I went back into the class and picked
up my test paper and gave it to her. And
[26:38] so I made an F on the final exam, F on
the term paper, F on the final exam,
[26:43] and I got a D minus for the course. And
[26:50] I left that school. I left it
behind. I went somewhere else.
[26:54] I was transferring a
lot anyway, by the way,
[26:56] but I didn't want to
stay there any longer.
[26:58] But it was also being falsely accused.
I didn't think about this at the time,
[27:03] but
[27:05] years went by before I started
writing about people who are
[27:10] falsely accused and wrongfully
convicted of serious crimes.
[27:16] It's very traumatic to be accused of
something when you know you're innocent.
[27:21] And I still think about that episode.
[27:26] I'm lucky it's the only time it's happened
in life and it wasn't that serious,
[27:29] I guess, in the scheme of things, but
[27:33] it was pretty traumatic.
[27:36] Well, it also reveals one
of your core values clearly,
[27:41] which is justice and fairness. And
[27:46] I think that there was probably a lot
about that searing experience of standing
[27:50] in that hallway
And feeling completely powerless and
[27:55] having no way to prove your innocence,
[27:57] no way to convince this
woman in believing in you,
[28:00] and just how utterly unfair that is.
[28:02] And there's that kind of
moral grappling in almost all
[28:07] of your stories
[28:10] and these characters needing to dig deep,
[28:13] which we all need to do in moments
where you have to believe in yourself
[28:18] in a moment when somebody else doesn't,
[28:20] or you have to know the truth when
somebody else is saying lies about you.
[28:25] One of the other things that you said
that I really related to was this sense of
[28:31] you were 18 and drifting.
[28:34] And I have a feeling this is going to be
a conversation a lot of parents send to
[28:38] their adult kids, especially ones
that might be drifting right now.
[28:42] So if somebody's in that phase
where I think a lot of people 18
[28:48] to 26 are feeling that acutely right now.
[28:52] It was a different era.
Yes. It was just after.
[28:56] There were two major factors I think that
[29:01] sent me drifting.
[29:03] One was the fact I was raised in a very
strict Southern Baptist environment,
[29:06] very conservative,
[29:08] and I couldn't wait to
leave home to get away,
[29:13] to drink beer and chase girls
and have some fun in college.
[29:16] And that was a huge
factor. Also, it was 1973.
[29:22] We grew up in a suburb of Memphis
and it was a middle class suburb,
[29:26] a working class suburb, and Vietnam
hung over us all through high school.
[29:31] We knew boys who had gone and
come back, not in one piece.
[29:35] We knew there was always an
effort to join the National Guard,
[29:40] to flunk a medical exam, all these
schemes to avoid Vietnam. By 1970,
[29:45] I was 15 years old, but I was
aware of what was going on,
[29:48] and it was a really a dark
time in American history,
[29:52] especially for kids who
were facing the draft,
[29:55] and we were all staring at the draft.
And
[30:00] so Sort of a depressing... I
knew I wanted to go to college,
[30:04] but I didn't know when, and I
didn't know how to get there.
[30:07] And my parents wanted us to go,
[30:08] but there was no plan to get us there
because they didn't know any better.
[30:14] After I finished high school, I
just sort of wasn't sure what to do.
[30:21] I went to two different colleges.
Then when I was a sophomore,
[30:25] I transferred to Mississippi State
because my buddies had transferred to
[30:29] Mississippi State.
[30:31] There was this one golden moment when
the light goes off in your life and
[30:35] something happens that you
don't know really what it is.
[30:40] It has happened at least twice in my life.
[30:42] I was in a classroom one day in 1975
[30:47] at Mississippi State, and it
was a finance course, big class,
[30:51] and the war was over.
[30:55] Saigon was falling and the communists
were rampaging about to take over Saigon.
[31:00] We were trying to evacuate all of
our personnel from the embassy there,
[31:03] and it was a chaotic time.
[31:06] More of the Vietnam War was
still troubling our nation.
[31:11] We had this conservative professor,
[31:15] a bomb thrower who though war is great
as long as somebody else is fighting it.
[31:20] He was complaining about the fact
that we should still be there fighting
[31:25] and we weren't spending enough money
to... We could have won the war, blah,
[31:27] blah. And he made the mistake.
[31:31] There was a guy in our class
who had been to Vietnam,
[31:35] and he was about three
years older than we were,
[31:38] and he had been wounded in
Vietnam. Nothing really severe,
[31:42] but he'd seen combat and
he challenged the professor
[31:48] in a big way.
[31:50] And you didn't do that back
then in 1975 at a conservative
[31:55] place like Mississippi State,
you didn't challenge a professor.
[31:59] This guy was fearless
and he went after him.
[32:02] They locked up and the student
just absolutely ripped the guy to
[32:07] shreds. We thought it was
wonderful. It scared us.
[32:12] I thought it was wonderful. I later talked
to the guy and he was a great guy and
[32:19] he said, "What are you studying?" I
said, "General business." They said,
[32:22] "That's crap, man. You don't want to
study that." He said, "Study accounting.
[32:26] It's the toughest business major.
[32:28] It'll prepare you for law school. I'm
going to law school and I'm going to do
[32:31] this and I'm going to do that." They
said, "That's the route to go." I said,
[32:34] "Okay." Just like that. I
thought that makes perfect sense.
[32:39] Law school is something I should think
about. And that's when the light came on.
[32:42] At the age of 20, suddenly
I stopped drifting.
[32:46] I found my place on campus. I
found my place in the major,
[32:51] started thinking about law school, and
[32:55] I was a different person that one moment.
[32:57] What's interesting about that one
moment is that it has the same
[33:02] core value, justice.
[33:05] You were rooting for the Vietnam
vet because of your deep sense of
[33:10] justice.
[33:11] The same thing was true when you got the
backhanded weird compliment about what
[33:16] a gifted writer you were in
a way that was very unjust.
[33:22] The dots are there.
[33:23] I think when I was talking
earlier about that kind of idea in
[33:28] 1980 that came to you through the friend
for the firm about the firm that nobody
[33:33] leaves, that's kind of what I meant,
[33:36] that there are these little things
when you look in reverse, oh,
[33:41] even though the path
was really screwed up,
[33:43] I kind of see how all this connects. I
often think about that because in moments
[33:47] in my life,
[33:48] even today where I feel just
overwhelmed or challenged or I'm not
[33:53] quite sure what move to make next,
I typically remind myself, well,
[33:57] I don't need to know. I just
need to look backwards and say,
[34:01] they've always led somewhere so I can
trust that where I'm standing right now
[34:06] is going to connect to something in
the future and I don't need to know
[34:12] what that is to know that it will
happen. And then your advice,
[34:17] you write one page, you take one step,
[34:18] you start chapter two.
What was the second golden moment?
[34:26] Far more important.
[34:29] I was a 30-year-old lawyer
dreaming of being a big
[34:34] time courtroom lawyer. That was
my goal, to be a big trial lawyer.
[34:38] And because of that, I was always
hanging around the courtroom.
[34:42] In our local courthouse,
[34:43] we had beautiful courthouse and beautiful
courtroom and good lawyers and good
[34:47] judges, and that was my
turf. I was always there.
[34:53] I volunteered for a lot of court
appointed criminal cases and trials.
[34:58] By the age of 30,
[34:59] I had been through a lot of trials
and I was sort of on the path.
[35:04] It's hard to make a lot of
money in a small town practice.
[35:08] That was the frustrating part,
[35:09] but I also had the dream of being a big
trial lawyer and getting bigger cases.
[35:14] That was where I was headed.
[35:15] Like that guy in Jackson Hole,
what's his name, that legendary -.
[35:18] Jerry Spence. Yeah, Jerry Spence. I
think he passed away last year. Yeah.
[35:20] He was a hero 40 years ago. He
was a big hero, a famous lawyer.
[35:27] I was hanging around the courtroom
one day when I saw something that
[35:32] changed everything. It was a trial
[35:37] that I knew about. We all knew about
it because it was a horrible case.
[35:40] Young little girl had been raped and
they caught the guy and he wanted to go
[35:45] to trial. He was a bad
actor, terrible guy.
[35:49] They brought the little girl in to
testify. She was, I don't know, 10 or 12.
[35:54] The judge, my judge, great judge,
[35:58] he knew that it was going
to be very, very difficult.
[36:02] He did something I had never seen
before. He cleared the courtroom,
[36:06] everybody out. Security was
tight. Security was very tight.
[36:11] So everybody left the courtroom and
he put a deputy at the back door,
[36:14] the front door, said no one can be
admitted for the next hour or so.
[36:20] There were deputies all over the place.
[36:22] Being a lawyer,
[36:25] I was an officer of the court so
I could hang around and I did.
[36:33] Little girl testified and
[36:38] at times she was very brave.
At times she was very frail.
[36:43] She told what happened. It
was horrible. It was horrible.
[36:48] For an hour or so,
[36:50] she took us through every
emotion known to the human soul,
[36:54] from love to hate to
retribution to what you name it.
[36:58] We went through a roller
coaster and I kept
[37:03] asking, I said, "What am I doing here?
[37:06] I don't have to be here." I knew three
people on the jury, small county,
[37:11] and I was across the courtroom looking
at them and it's really bizarre to see
[37:16] all 12 jurors wiping their eyes.
The judge was hiding his face.
[37:21] The lawyers were... It was just horrible.
[37:24] And the only person who didn't show
any emotion was a defendant who was a
[37:28] hardened criminal. And finally,
she could not continue.
[37:34] And the judge said, "Let's take a recess."
[37:41] Thank God. I raced out of
the courtroom, side door,
[37:43] went down the back steps and raced
to my car. When I got to my car,
[37:47] I realized I'd forgotten my briefcase.
I had to go back in the courtroom,
[37:52] up the back stairs to the side door,
[37:55] and the defendant was sitting in
the same chair. He hadn't moved.
[38:00] There was nobody else in the courtroom
but a deputy who was kind of guarding
[38:04] him, but he wasn't going anywhere.
I walked by the defendant
[38:10] and I just had this thought. I said,
[38:14] "Had that been my daughter and I
could get this close and I had a
[38:19] gun,
[38:21] I would happily blow your brains out and
I would look at the same jury and say,
[38:25] Now,
[38:25] what are you going to do to me for doing
something that you all want to do? That
[38:29] was raw, intense and filled
with hatred. It was awful,
[38:35] but it was real. It was
such an emotional moment.
[38:42] I got through it.
[38:43] I got my briefcase and took
off and I had this idea of this
[38:48] story in a courtroom, my courtroom,
[38:51] a fictional story is seen through the
eyes of this idealistic young attorney who
[38:56] gets appointed to represent
this guy and here we go.
[39:01] That was the origin of A Time to Kill.
[39:04] I though about it for days
and weeks and finally I said,
[39:11] "I'm going to start with chapter
one and tell this story." I had
[39:16] never written before, fiction,
and that's how it got started.
[39:21] But if I had not been in that courtroom,
[39:24] I'm not sure I would've been
inspired or motivated enough or
[39:29] ambitious enough to try something like
that, and that's how it got started.
[39:33] And you ultimately wrote it, but
[39:38] when you went to go get a
publisher, what happened?
[39:42] Oh, boy. Talk about rejection. Well,
[39:47] about halfway through, after a year or so,
[39:50] there was a lot of stuff
written, still untyped,
[39:55] handwritten, and I began
thinking about getting published.
[39:59] I had the big dream, the
dream of writing for a living.
[40:04] That was the big dream. I could not
shake it. Didn't want to shake it.
[40:09] And that's what motivated me
to keep writing and reading.
[40:14] Reading was crucial because
I read so many great
[40:20] mystery writers, suspense writers, all
the guys who were big in the 80s, 70s,
[40:25] 80s, and 90s. So when I
finally finished the book,
[40:29] I sent the book off to New York
the way you're supposed to do it.
[40:32] Three sample chapters, a cover letter,
a pitch, and you sent it off to...
[40:36] I had a list of 10 agents
and 10 publishers. Back then,
[40:39] you could send it to an editor.
[40:41] You can't do that now.
It has to come to an agent today.
[40:44] I had 10 and 10, two
lists. And my secretary,
[40:48] because I was offered
the state legislature,
[40:52] she would send off 10 and 10,
20 submissions, go to New York.
[40:55] They came right back,
rejection, rejection, rejection.
[41:01] I would come in on Friday
afternoon from the state capital,
[41:04] run by the office and check the
mail, check my rejection letters,
[41:10] and that's how it went.
There were a lot of them,
[41:15] but that's kind of the
way you did it back then.
[41:18] Rejection was so much a part of it.
[41:20] Well, I think that's kind of
the way you do it now too.
[41:22] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.
[41:23] Anything has a lot of rejection.
I want to compliment you about something.
[41:26] I want to make sure the person
listening or watching really gets the
[41:31] profound importance of something
that you allowed yourself to do.
[41:36] You
[41:38] started writing just because you
wanted to and you enjoyed it.
[41:44] So much of your story, which
I find to be so inspiring,
[41:50] is that the dream didn't happen first.
[41:55] You were just interested.
[41:57] You had something you enjoyed doing
just for the sake of doing it.
[42:01] And we've all had those
moments where you get lost in
[42:06] something.
[42:07] And I think it's so important that
we all have something for ourselves.
[42:12] And as I was listening to your
story, you said very early on,
[42:16] I've always loved stories and I grew
up with storytellers and I grew up
[42:22] with grandparents and parents telling
stories on the porch and allowing yourself
[42:26] and giving yourself permission
and creating space in your
life to have something
[42:31] that is just for you simply
because you enjoy it,
[42:36] that to me is the fundamental lesson
because even if you never published,
[42:41] even if you never wrote the 70 books
or however many you've written,
[42:46] all of which become number one,
even if none of that never happened,
[42:49] having that space for yourself to do
something that really is for you that you
[42:53] enjoy doing,
[42:55] it brings so much meaning to your life.
And so I think it's really important.
[42:59] I want to make sure as you're listening,
[43:00] you heard the brilliance in that
because the dream came after you created
[43:05] space for something that you
actually just enjoyed doing.
[43:08] Yeah. Still enjoy it. Still therapy.
[43:12] One of the things that I'm
really picking up on your story,
[43:16] because so many people get either derailed
[43:21] before they even start
[43:24] or they get derailed because of
the rejections that start coming
[43:29] in.
[43:30] And what's interesting about your
story is that if you're really paying
[43:35] attention, listening as John's talking,
[43:39] that the getting started for you
in terms of writing as a habit
[43:44] and just kind of leaning in felt like
more of something that just brought a lot
[43:47] of meaning and joy to your
life and that was the why.
[43:52] But I'm curious,
[43:53] how did you deal with the rejections
and how did you deal with the fact that
[43:58] the Time to Kill, you get published,
[44:01] it's now out there and nothing's
happening and yet you're still
[44:06] writing.
[44:07] So what is the lesson that
the person listening can take
[44:12] about processing rejection or
putting yourself out there and it's
[44:17] not successful because it wasn't?
[44:19] Well, the submission rejection routine
that I went through was fairly typical
[44:24] for writers.
[44:27] The first novel that was a flop
is not unusual in this profession,
[44:32] but there are a lot of stories,
[44:33] a lot of great stories about famous
writers who were turned down repeatedly
[44:38] time and time again. Nobody wanted to
publish their stories and they kept on,
[44:42] they kept on, they kept...
[44:43] And finally they got a break somewhere
and those are the great stories in
[44:47] publishing.
[44:48] Some of the great books we've read and
enjoyed over the years were totally
[44:52] rejected. And I tell aspiring writers
[44:58] that some of these stories, they're fun
stories to talk about, my story's fun,
[45:03] but almost every successful writer got
[45:08] rejected.
[45:09] I think every successful person.
[45:10] Yeah, sure. Yeah.
[45:12] What's in your story is
that you didn't stop.
[45:15] And.
[45:15] It goes back to one page a day.
Whether the rejections come in,
[45:19] whether the book does well, you
just didn't stop. And to me,
[45:24] time and time again,
[45:25] that always seems to be the
unifying thing that happens
[45:30] in successful people's story. And
again, if I use a writing metaphor,
[45:35] if you're still here,
the story hasn't ended.
[45:39] And the person that has control
over where the story goes next,
[45:42] whether you keep writing or
you keep showing up, is you.
[45:46] And because you loved what you
did and you were doing it for you,
[45:50] it didn't matter if you got rejected,
you were going to keep writing.
[45:53] I don't know how long I would've done
it had I not had the success with the
[45:58] firm.
[45:58] Really?
[45:59] I didn't have a story for
the third book at the time,
[46:03] and I don't know... I'd spent five years,
[46:08] three years for Time to Kill, two
years for the firm back to back,
[46:12] and I was getting kind of
tired of the 5:30 routine.
[46:19] I was spending a lot of time
there and I kept thinking, "Well,
[46:25] you could be spending more
time with your cases as a
[46:30] lawyer." I was letting some things slide,
[46:33] and the practice was not going
anywhere because I was distracted.
[46:39] At some point,
[46:39] I had to make a decision because I
wasn't making any money as a writer.
[46:45] I think at some point fairly soon after
that, I would've had to have said,
[46:48] "Okay, I've tried twice.
I can't keep doing this,
[46:53] but I've got a great fallback position.
[46:55] I've got the bread and butter right here.
[46:56] It's my law office and I can make that
more successful and I can forget about
[47:01] writing and I can pursue my
original dream of being a really
[47:06] successful trial lawyer."
I had some heroes,
[47:10] some lawyers I knew in Mississippi
who were very fine trial lawyers who I
[47:16] tried to pattern myself after as a very
young lawyer. I think that's probably
[47:20] what would've happened. Thank
God it didn't come to that.
[47:24] Thank God it didn't happen. Again,
[47:28] I feel I got a huge lucky break. I
know you make your own luck, okay?
[47:33] But I got a huge lucky
break with the firm.
[47:37] The book went to New
York in the fall of 89,
[47:41] and my agent who had read the
summary and loved the idea,
[47:48] he wasn't too thrilled with it. He wanted
some changes made, and I said, "No,
[47:52] I'm not going to make those changes." We
were sort of at a stalemate for several
[47:56] months. He showed the
book to some editors.
[48:02] There was no rush to publish the firm,
[48:06] and he called me around
Christmas of 89 and said,
[48:11] "Look, nothing's happening.
It's the holidays.
[48:14] I'll sell the book in
January." I said, "Okay, great.
[48:17] I've heard that before." And
[48:22] this is where the fun starts.
Unknown to him and unknown to me,
[48:28] a scout. Back then,
[48:31] the major studios had scouts in New York
who would hang around the publishing
[48:35] companies and pick up the gossip
for a big book or a good book,
[48:39] a good manuscript.
But a bootleg copy of
[48:44] the firm popped up in Hollywood over the
[48:49] Christmas break, and a
guy got it out there.
[48:56] I'm not sure what he did, but he
pretended though he was my agent,
[49:00] and he ran 25 copies of it and
sent it off to all the studios and
[49:05] production companies. They
started getting offers
[49:11] and it got - And you.
[49:12] Didn't know any of this was.
[49:13] Going on? Not a word, not a word.
My agent didn't know about it.
[49:16] Nobody knew about it except
for the guys in Hollywood.
[49:18] And so the offers got more and
more intense. The bidding started,
[49:23] and at some point, somebody
said, "What about Grisham?
[49:28] Have we talked to him?" Well, nobody had.
[49:31] Somebody called my agent.
They had a huge fight.
[49:36] They threatened lawsuits
and all this kind of stuff,
[49:39] and I didn't know about that.
[49:40] It was obvious a big deal
was about to go down,
[49:44] so they kissed and made up and had a deal,
[49:48] and they were ready for the final round of
[49:53] bidding when he finally called me on
a Sunday morning and he said, "Hey,
[49:56] I need your authority to
take the highest offer from
[50:00] Paramount, Universal,
[50:02] or Disney Touchstone for the
film rights to the firm." I said,
[50:07] "Film rights? What about
the book?" And he said,
[50:12] "We'll talk about it later." I said,
"Whoa, wait a minute." He said, no,
[50:15] this is urgent.
He said,
[50:17] "They're sitting by their phones
for the final round of bidding."
[50:22] The word bidding had a nice ring to
it. I thought, "Okay. Yeah, sure.
[50:26] Go ahead and sell the film rights." He
called back about an hour later and said,
[50:31] "We have just sold the film
rights." No, I said, "Okay,
[50:35] just for fun, how much money
are we talking about?" He said,
[50:39] "I'm asking for 500,000.
[50:42] I hope to get 400,000," or
something like that. I said,
[50:46] "You want my authority to go
do that?" And he said, "Yeah,
[50:49] so you have my authority."
He called back and he said,
[50:53] "We just sold the film rights to
the firm to Paramount Pictures
[50:58] for $600,000," which was more
money than I'd made in 10 years of
[51:02] practicing law. I said,
[51:07] "Okay, look,
[51:09] let me call you back." Renee and
I sat down at the kitchen table.
[51:13] We were late for lunch at
my mom's house, and we said,
[51:17] "You got to be kidding." One phone
call just dropped in like that out of
[51:21] nowhere, totally unexpected, and
that's when everything changed.
[51:27] One thing I want to just tease out,
[51:29] especially as you've been
listening to John's story,
[51:31] because you said you got lucky and then
you, "Well, you make your own luck."
[51:37] The fact is,
[51:39] you had been working toward that
moment since you were 18 years old,
[51:47] and we recently had this extraordinary
professor who researches the science of
[51:51] luck,
[51:52] and luck is this largely misunderstood
thing because it's really about
[51:57] the actions that you take that put
you in the current to have those kinds
[52:02] of things happen. The
five years of writing,
[52:07] the walking past the 28 rejections,
[52:12] the shrugging off the flop
of the time to kill book,
[52:17] the continuing to write,
the sending it all off,
[52:22] all of that are examples of your
philosophy of one page a day,
[52:26] move it down the field, write
another page, keep moving it forward,
[52:30] that put you in the
current to have all of that
[52:35] happen. It's important for the person to
hear that because it'd be easy to say,
[52:40] "Oh gosh, timing,
[52:41] all this stuff," but none of that
happens without everything that
[52:46] came before.
[52:47] Right. I don't downplay it.
I tend to downplay it for -.
[52:52] Yeah, I've noticed.
[52:53] To get a laugh. I love humor.
I love to poke fun at myself.
[52:58] I don't downplay what
happened, but you're right,
[53:01] it was a five-year journey
to get to that point.
[53:03] I didn't realize it,
But everything I had done,
[53:07] and also sort of honing the
craft, learning how to write,
[53:11] learning the mistakes from a time to kill,
[53:13] learning how to keep the story
lean and fast. That was all stuff I
[53:18] just picked up. I
learned over time, and so
[53:22] the timing was very fortunate when
it happened. The book came out
[53:28] when you saw it, May of 91, March of 91,
[53:31] and there was a lot of buzz
behind the book when it came out,
[53:34] and it hit the New York Times list.
[53:39] Back in those days, a new writer
on the list got a lot of attention.
[53:43] Doubleday said, "Can you come to New York
for the victory lap?" I said, "Sure."
[53:50] Went to New York and had
a bunch of interviews.
[53:55] I did Brian Gumbel Today Show,
which was a big deal back then.
[53:59] He was very good to me, and we got
a lot of... We were having lunch,
[54:02] a bunch of publishers in
the room and booksellers,
[54:06] and I sat next to a very young executive
from the old Walden Bookchains.
[54:11] Oh, I remember Walden. Yeah. Every
model had a B. Dalton on one end,
[54:14] but Walton on the other, and those
are the bookstores I grew up with.
[54:19] And this guy, very young guy,
probably my age, and he said,
[54:22] we just make an idle conversation.
He said something that just stuck.
[54:26] I'll never forget it. He said,
[54:28] we're talking about
writers and he said, "Oh,
[54:33] the big guys come out
every year." I had never
[54:38] thought about that. He said, "Yeah,
look, Stephen King, Michael Crighton,
[54:43] Robert Lovelam, Ken Fowler,
they come out every year.
[54:48] The big guys come out every year,
Elmore Leonard." And I thought, "Okay,
[54:53] I want to be a big guy." So
I hustled back to Oxford,
[54:58] Mississippi, where we
lived at the time, and
[55:03] wrote around the clock to
finish the Peloton Brief,
[55:06] to have it out in time to
publish in 92, a year later. And
[55:13] that's how it all kept going. That's
where the book a year came from.
[55:17] That's been a book of
years for 35 years now.
[55:21] Page a day, a book a year.
[55:23] Again, keep your butt in the seat.
[55:24] Keep your butt in the seat.
Talk to me about that.
[55:27] Yeah, you got to do it. You got
to show up. You got to show up.
[55:34] There was some real gold in
something that you've said,
[55:38] and I want to combine the two and then
pull it out for the person listening.
[55:41] You used this term where you
patterned other trial lawyers,
[55:47] and that was kind of your backup plan,
[55:49] you're following the actions
of people that inspired you,
[55:53] and then you said the big guys come out
every year, which is another pattern.
[55:59] Can you talk just a little bit
about how some of the secrets
[56:05] to success are literally right in
front of you based on the patterns
[56:10] of people that you admire?
[56:11] Yeah. When I was in law
school, my third year...
[56:14] Third year law school is pretty
easy compared to the first two.
[56:17] I didn't like law school either.
I didn't like law school at all.
[56:20] I'm not sure any law school. We have so.
[56:21] Much.
[56:21] In common. Oh God, couldn't stand law
school. I couldn't wait to get out of it.
[56:26] But my senior year, there was a
federal courthouse across town,
[56:32] and I would watch the dockets,
[56:35] and I knew when the good lawyers
were in court trying cases,
[56:40] I would cut classes, which is no big
deal when you're a third year student,
[56:43] to go watch the lawyers, the good lawyers.
[56:47] I was in court one day watching a
civil trial and two heavyweights were
[56:52] going at it in front of
a jury, and it was magic.
[56:57] I was sitting there, and civil trials
don't draw big crowds. I was sitting,
[57:02] I looked around, I said, there
are no other law students here,
[57:06] which was no big deal. Who wants
to watch trials? But I did.
[57:10] I wanted to watch the lawyers.
[57:14] I tried to pattern my
practice after those guys,
[57:20] and a lot of it is being
able to discover cases,
[57:26] not chase them, but get them, which
is probably the most difficult part.
[57:30] Then when I was writing,
[57:32] when I started writing
Time to Kill and the firm,
[57:37] that five-year period, I read
a lot of popular fiction, and
[57:43] it was really kind of odd
because I would read a book
[57:49] and I would say, "This is crap,
okay? This guy, this is terrible.
[57:54] I can beat this." I knew I could. I
mean, I knew I could tell a better story.
[57:58] I could certainly write better
than a lot of popular fiction,
[58:01] a lot of really popular fiction,
and that was inspirational.
[58:05] I was also very honest, and
I would read a book and say,
[58:09] "I'll never be that good." Still do that.
But it's
[58:14] always something better. You
got something to aspire for.
[58:17] I want every book to be my best book,
and you're getting better and get better.
[58:21] I'm an honest judge in my own work,
[58:24] but I knew there was room for
me on the bestseller list,
[58:27] and it was often the bad books
that inspired me to keep going.
[58:31] Or I'd walk in a Walden
bookstore or B. Dalton,
[58:34] and they have the big wall of all the
New York Times bestsellers and big,
[58:38] beautiful books, and I knew a lot of them,
[58:40] and I would get so sad thinking,
"Who wants to hear from me?
[58:45] Look at all those books up
there. Look at all those books."
[58:51] I'd worry about that for a
while, but I wouldn't slow down.
[58:55] I tell writers all the time, "Look,
[58:57] publishing needs new talent every year.
[59:01] If you want to get inspired to write,
[59:04] read debut novels. These are first-time
writers, and they're celebrated,
[59:10] and we celebrate them.
[59:11] We need new writers. Somebody's
going to get published every year.
[59:15] I love that moment where you're saying,"
Who's going to read what I write?
[59:20] Who's going to read
me? "For the person who
[59:24] knows what they want but is in that swirl,
[59:26] because I did that with this
podcast for many, many years.
[59:30] There's so many of them.
Who wants to hear from me?
[59:33] Lots of people have already done it.
[59:36] For the person that's
saying that to themselves,
[59:38] like you used to in the bookstore,
what would you tell them?
[59:43] You can't control all that. You can't
control what somebody else writes.
[59:46] You can't control what
the publishers publish.
[59:49] You can't control what the stores
sell. Work with what you can control,
[59:53] which is your own fiction,
and you can make it better.
[59:57] If you have a great story, something new,
[1:00:00] write Write it and don't
quit. I tell writers,
[1:00:05] when are you going to stop writing when
I run out of stories? Or writers say,
[1:00:09] I've written five novels and
I've had them all rejected.
[1:00:14] What would you advise me to
do? And I will say, well,
[1:00:16] keep writing if you have a story. Now,
[1:00:21] a lot of the great writing
is God-given talent.
[1:00:24] There's some writers in any field,
[1:00:26] you have people who
just have so much talent
[1:00:31] that comes through DNA or write education
or whatever experiences they have.
[1:00:36] But you can also improve
your own writing by
[1:00:41] watching those people, by
trying to be like them,
[1:00:43] trying to be great like they are.
And also technical skills that
[1:00:49] you can master yourself.
Vocabulary and grammar and reading.
[1:00:54] Reading, reading, reading is the most
important. I don't know a single writer,
[1:00:57] successful writer who
is not an avid reader.
[1:01:02] You gave some really,
I think, cool advice,
[1:01:05] and I don't even know if you realize this.
[1:01:07] So as you're standing in the bookstore
and you're looking at all the greats and
[1:01:11] you're thinking, there's no room for
me, I'm never going to be that good.
[1:01:17] We don't look at the books that
are crap and use it as motivation
[1:01:22] to go, if this garbage can
get published, why not me?
[1:01:26] You know what I mean? If this
person could do it, why not me?
[1:01:31] And so I think there's patterns
of both ends to not just look up.
[1:01:36] Look up for the actual skills of success
[1:01:41] and the technique and talent.
[1:01:43] Look down to remind yourself that there
are people who are far less talented
[1:01:47] than you
That are putting themselves out there,
[1:01:51] that are writing one page
at a time. The reason,
[1:01:56] John,
[1:01:57] that I release two
episodes a week is because
[1:02:03] the big guys have two a week.
[1:02:07] And so the patterning that you're
talking about is all around you.
[1:02:12] And when you were sitting
in that courtroom as a third
year law student watching
[1:02:15] the two big dogs go at it in a civil
case and you look around going,
[1:02:19] why is nobody else here? Who
wants to watch a civil trial?
[1:02:22] A person who wants to be amazing
at it studies the greats.
[1:02:27] You're a student before you're a great,
[1:02:29] and that's everywhere in your
story that you're looking around,
[1:02:32] you're looking for great stories,
you're looking for inspiration,
[1:02:35] you're looking for patterns, you're
looking for what the great writers do.
[1:02:38] And I even think that one of the reasons
why I was so excited to have you on and
[1:02:43] talk to you about your story
is because I know every single
[1:02:48] person, the person who's
listening right now,
[1:02:51] they listen because they want the
patterns from your life. They want to know
[1:02:55] what they can learn from you.
[1:02:56] And even though a lot of what you're
sharing is about the way you think about
[1:03:00] writing, it is 1000% the exact same
way that you do anything in life,
[1:03:06] anything.
[1:03:09] I would love to hear more
about the Innocence Project
and what you learned from
[1:03:14] this work.
[1:03:16] When I was a young lawyer,
[1:03:17] I saw this obituary one day in the
New York Times about this guy who had
[1:03:21] obviously just died and
he was very much like me,
[1:03:26] same age, same neck of
the woods, same region,
[1:03:30] and he came within five days of being
executed in Oklahoma. And I though,
[1:03:35] how could this guy go to
death row and be innocent?
[1:03:41] And I was just stunned by the story.
[1:03:46] I took off to Oklahoma. I took off
and I met with his family and I said,
[1:03:50] I'm going to write this
book. And they said, great.
[1:03:56] They were still mourning his death.
[1:03:58] Writing that book took me into
the world of wrongful convictions.
[1:04:00] And once I realized there are
thousands of innocent people in prison,
[1:04:03] it was a big wake-up call for
me. And that was 20 years ago.
[1:04:08] And so I'm still writing about them,
[1:04:11] still published a book two years
ago about wrongful convictions,
[1:04:14] still angry at how they happened,
[1:04:18] still advocate for
criminal justice reform,
[1:04:22] still frustrated by the lack of reform.
So it's something I'm
[1:04:28] caught up in.
[1:04:30] I admire that in you,
[1:04:34] especially having been a public defender
and having Brian Stevenson as one of my
[1:04:39] most inspiring mentors for sure.
We've had him here on the show.
[1:04:44] His work's.
[1:04:45] Incredible. He's one of a kind.
[1:04:49] What he has accomplished is truly
amazing and his book was very
[1:04:54] inspirational. We visited his
museums in Montgomery and were just
[1:05:00] really overcome.
[1:05:03] How do you stay hopeful when the
world is overwhelming and when you're
[1:05:08] in these cases and
grappling with issues of
[1:05:12] justice in your work?
How do you stay hopeful?
[1:05:15] I tell myself, okay,
go back to the basics.
[1:05:20] Worry about the things you can control.
[1:05:25] You can wake up each morning
and see the news and just fret
[1:05:30] and worry yourself into a deep
funk and stay there all day.
[1:05:35] Or you can say, okay,
the world's a mess. Okay.
[1:05:41] What can I do today to make
it a little bit better?
[1:05:44] How can I help someone today
to make it a little bit better?
[1:05:49] And that's what I do. That's
almost every day. Obviously,
[1:05:56] I can escape in my own world and go
write some fiction, which is what I do,
[1:06:00] still do.
[1:06:02] And I can also work with a lot of
nonprofits and things like that to
[1:06:07] try to make the world better and get
a lot of gratification from that.
[1:06:11] My wife and I are active
with childhood hunger issues,
[1:06:16] homelessness and wrongful
convictions. We stay pretty busy
[1:06:22] working with nonprofits and
that's extremely gratifying. So
[1:06:27] that gives us hope. We hope we're
providing hope for someone else.
[1:06:33] Baby steps, small steps,
little something every day.
[1:06:38] One page a day.
[1:06:39] Yeah, one page a day.
[1:06:40] I often think about this too
because it is very overwhelming and
[1:06:45] there's a lot to feel despair
about. And on one hand,
[1:06:49] I think the fact that you feel heartbroken
about some of the things that you see
[1:06:53] is a good thing because it means
that you still have a heart to
[1:06:58] break and you still care about goodness
and justice and kindness and the
[1:07:02] dignity of how people are
treated. And I agree with you,
[1:07:07] I feel hopeless when I look out there,
[1:07:10] but I feel very empowered when I just
look in my community and I look around me
[1:07:15] and I say,
[1:07:17] "What is one thing I
can do today that really
[1:07:21] is part of a positive shift,
whether it's in my home,
[1:07:25] in my marriage, in my
friendships, in my community,
[1:07:29] in the world at large?" And I
truly think if enough of us just
[1:07:34] start doing that, everything is going
to start to change for the better.
[1:07:39] And there are so many people doing that.
[1:07:41] Yes.
[1:07:42] The good outnumber the bad.
[1:07:44] That's true. I agree
with you. John Grisham,
[1:07:47] you are just an absolute amazing,
[1:07:53] amazing, generous, and very
talented person. Thank you for -.
[1:07:56] You're being very generous. Thank you.
[1:07:58] You're.
[1:07:58] Welcome. You're very welcome.
[1:07:59] You're welcome.
[1:08:01] Thanks for having me on your show.
[1:08:02] Oh, of course. And give Renee my best.
[1:08:04] I can't wait to meet
her one of these days.
[1:08:06] She would love that.
[1:08:07] I would love that too. And
I also want to thank you.
[1:08:09] Thank you for making the time to spend
it here with me and John Grisham.
[1:08:13] And I hope that you feel
so inspired and you are
[1:08:18] just going to go put
your butt in the chair,
[1:08:20] turn the page and start
writing that new chapter.
[1:08:23] And in case no one else tells you, as
your friend, I wanted to be sure to say,
[1:08:27] I love you and I believe in you and
your ability to create a better life.
[1:08:30] And you got so many amazing
pieces of wisdom and tools
[1:08:36] from John Grisham today, so
freaking use them. Alrighty,
[1:08:40] I'll see you in the next episode. I'll
welcome you in the moment you hit play.
[1:08:43] And thank you for watching
all the way to the end.
[1:08:46] Didn't you love hearing all
of this from John Grisham?
[1:08:49] I know I did. And thank you also for
sharing this with people in your life who
[1:08:54] need a little inspiration to start
writing their next chapter. Alrighty,
[1:08:58] I know you want to watch another
episode of the Mel Robbins podcast.
[1:09:01] You're going to love this one,
[1:09:03] and I will welcome you in
the moment you hit play.