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Inspiration

Why Relationships Feel Harder Now: Presence Over Phones

RC
Rangan Chatterjee
Oct 14, 2026
読了 約10分
視聴 · 8

The interview opens with a rapid-fire round, the kind of warm-up that usually gets a laugh and a platitude. Rangan Chatterjee asks for one habit that improves relationships most, and Esther Perel answers without hesitation: ongoing appreciation. Then the room tilts. Her next answers turn on the checklist, the phone on the nightstand and the sentence she wrote twenty years ago that still hits harder than it did the first time. What follows, across a 43-minute conversation, is a sharp and unsentimental account of why connection has become so hard to sustain even as the ways to reach one another multiply. Perel argues that we have become expert at scanning our partners for flaws, that we treat finding the right person as a product decision, that marriage gets mistaken for the end of romance rather than the beginning of a story, and that our devices have introduced a new kind of absence: bodies in the room, attention somewhere else. Her remedies are not exotic. They are appreciation spoken out loud, curiosity kept alive, risk and ritual, and the willingness to be fully present, which she treats as the real currency of a life.

読む · 9セクション

Why are we so good at criticising the people we love?

Perel's first answer is a diagnosis. "We become so good at being critical of the person we live with," she told Chatterjee at the top of the conversation (0:00), and the irony is that the same attention could be pointed the other way. Her prescription is almost embarrassingly simple: say the appreciative thing. "Thank you. Nice. I appreciate. It moves me." Each of those small acknowledgments, she argued, builds what she called a bucket, a reserve of goodwill that a couple can draw on when the hard conversations arrive.

The logic is less sentimental than it sounds. Couples who have spent years cataloguing each other's habits tend to speak in a shorthand of irritation. Appreciation interrupts that loop. It forces a partner to notice what is working rather than what is annoying, and it gives the relationship something to lean on when stress arrives. In Perel's framing, appreciation is not a reward for good behaviour. It is maintenance.

Why is the checklist a curse when choosing a partner?

Chatterjee asked what people misunderstand about finding the right partner, and Perel went straight to the premise. "The focus on finding the right partner is in itself a problem," she said (0:44). "Why don't we ever ask, am I the right partner? Who am I in this relationship, rather than what do I find?" The shift in question is the point. Modern dating culture, with its profiles, filters and attribute lists, trains people to evaluate a partner as they would evaluate a purchase. Perel's answer is blunt: "Ditch the checklist. I mean that in itself is a curse."

The checklist fails for a reason that goes beyond romance. A list describes a person at a single moment, and it turns the relationship into a verdict on whether someone meets the criteria. It leaves out the most important variable, which is what two people are able to build together, and the role each one plays in that building. Asking "who am I here?" moves the work back to the self, where it actually lives.

What does marriage become when romance is supposed to end?

Chatterjee had been rereading the twentieth-anniversary edition of Perel's book Mating in Captivity, and he pointed to a passage about couples who keep a sense of playfulness in and out of the bedroom, for whom marriage is not the end of romance but the beginning. He noted that this runs against the cultural script, and asked what people are getting wrong.

Perel's answer begins with the expectation that one phase replaces another. The typical arc, as she described it, is to find the person, marry them, and then switch from passion to reality. But she is skeptical of that trade. "Passion is a temporary state of insanity," she said (5:04). Yet "when you trade passion for reality, you trade one fiction for another." The fantasy of the chase gives way to the fantasy of the stable home, and neither accounts for an actual person who keeps changing.

The alternative she offers is to treat marriage, or any committed relationship, as the start of a new story that the partners have not finished writing. "Relationships are stories," Perel said, and as a couples therapist she sees how often two people arrive at a point where those stories have become incompatible. Staying curious about the other person is what keeps the narrative open. Without curiosity, the partner stops being a mystery and becomes furniture.

Is playfulness really just taking risks?

Perel defines playfulness with unusual precision. It is "basically taking risks," she said (5:46). "It's about engaging with the unknown, being spontaneous, not settling on the familiar or on routine." She also notes that playfulness involves ritual, a paradox worth sitting with. The rituals that sustain couples are repeated on purpose, but what keeps them alive is the sense that anything could happen inside them. The energy she described is the feeling of being on the edge of your seat rather than settling into the sofa.

She illustrated the drift with a line that got a laugh from the audience and a recognition from anyone who has ever come home from work. Many people, she said, take off everything they wore during the day, the clothes and the effort, because they no longer feel they have to be attractive. Her question was pointed: on what basis would anyone expect a partner to feel desire under those conditions? Her suggestion was not a costume change for its own sake. It was a reminder that the attentiveness people bring to a prospective client, the charm and the listening, is a form of care that can be extended to home.

What is digital lag, and why does it matter at the bedside?

This is where the conversation turns most sharply. Perel asked the room how many people's last touch before sleep is a phone, and how many people's first touch in the morning is a phone. Then she drew the line: "And how many of you have someone lying next to you in bed?" Chatterjee admitted he touches his phone too, and the two of them agreed that people touch and caress their devices more than their partners, then wonder why they are struggling (7:49).

Perel's term for what happens in between is digital lag. It describes someone who is physically present but mentally elsewhere, a split she summed up as "I'm there. I'm here, but I'm not present." She argued that people drop their attentiveness the moment they are in relationship with the person in front of them, and then act surprised when the relationship feels flat, low in energy, or without aliveness. She was careful to clarify that this aliveness, which she called eroticism, has little to do with sex. It is the sense of intensity people want to feel with each other.

Chatterjee went further, calling physical co-presence with emotional absence one of the most toxic conditions in any relationship, whether with a partner, colleague or friend. He linked it to ambiguous loss, the grief of someone who is still there but no longer fully available. Perel's broader point is that the cost is not dramatic; it accumulates in small moments where a person is not listened to.

Can desire survive when everything is frictionless?

Perel frames the present moment as a test of desire. "In 2026 I am asking, can desire survive," she said (13:15), and she located the problem in a life where almost everything arrives without effort. Desire, in her account, depends partly on some uncertainty, on the gap between what we have and what we might still want. Her observation that it can be challenging to want what we already have points to the paradox at the heart of long relationships: the very security that makes a partnership stable can dull the appetite that made it exciting.

The answer is not to manufacture drama. It is to restore the conditions in which interest can grow, which means curiosity, risk and a willingness to let the other person surprise you. Those conditions are harder to find when every need can be met with a tap.

Why was one person never meant to be everything?

The idea of the soulmate came up as one of the expectations that undermine modern couples. Perel described how many people now say they are looking for a partner who will be their best friend, their trusted confidant and their lover all at once (29:55). The expectation is enormous, and it lands on a single person. She connected this to a larger shift: one partner was never meant to provide everything that an entire community once did. Friends, extended family, mentors and neighbours used to carry part of the load. The result is a relationship asked to hold more than it was built to carry.

This is where her own history gives the argument weight. Perel said her parents were both Holocaust survivors who survived the war completely alone, and that relationships with people and friends were all they had. "I understood that idea that relationships, friendships, mentors, teachers, people in your life are the gold that you will travel with," she said. "I saw it in front of me and it became the basis of my work." That lesson, that the people around us are the real resources of a life, is the thread that runs from her childhood to her clinical practice.

What is the AI companion conversation telling us?

Perel also shared what she learned from a recent therapy session between a human and an AI companion (34:28). The moment marks a shift in the conversation from the intimacy of couples to the question of how digital companions are reshaping what people expect from connection. Her concern, as the material frames it, is whether technology that is always available, never tired and always agreeable can make ordinary human relationships feel like too much effort. The question is one many clinicians are now asking, and Perel treats it as central to any discussion of loneliness and presence.

Where to go from here

The most useful thing about this conversation is that its advice is small enough to try this week. Start with the appreciation: say one specific thing you value about the person you live with, out loud, without a qualifier. Notice the checklist in your head and ask Perel's question instead: who am I being in this relationship? Put the phone out of reach at the moments that matter most, bedtime and the first minutes of the morning, and give your partner the attentiveness you give a client. Call a friend rather than sending a text, because, as Perel put it, the voice carries something the message does not. Introduce a little risk and ritual into routine. And treat the relationship as an unfinished story rather than a settled fact. Perel's most quotable line, from her book, is that a partner "never belongs to you. They are just on loan with an option to renew." That idea is the whole conversation in one sentence, and the reason it matters is that she believes, as she told Chatterjee, that the quality of your relationships ultimately determines the quality of your life.

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Transcript

[0:00] What I thought we'd do to start off,

[0:02] Esther, is to do some quick fire

[0:04] questions. Okay. Uh, what is one habit

[0:09] that improves our relationships the

[0:11] most?

[0:13] >> Ongoing appreciations. We become so good

[0:17] at being critical of the person we live

[0:19] with that it's actually very interesting

[0:21] when instead you put your lens on

[0:23] anything, you could just say, "Thank

[0:25] you. Nice. I appreciate. It moves me."

[0:29] that will create a bucket that is very

[0:32] significant.

[0:33] >> Yeah, I love that. What is something

[0:35] people misunderstand

[0:38] about finding the right partner?

[0:42] >> Well, it's the focus on finding the

[0:44] right partner that is in itself a

[0:46] problem. Why don't we ever ask am I the

[0:48] right partner? Who am I in this

[0:51] relationship rather than what I find?

[0:53] And finding the right partner has a lot

[0:55] to do with a checklist. And my first and

[0:57] foremost advice these days is ditch the

[0:59] checklist. I mean that in itself is a

[1:02] curse.

[1:03] >> Yeah.

[1:03] >> How many of you have checklists?

[1:09] [laughter]

[1:11] >> Is there a daily ritual you never skip?

[1:14] >> A daily ritual I never skip. I probably

[1:18] call a friend every day just to chat,

[1:22] just to ask how are they doing? Because

[1:24] these days I find that you can easily go

[1:27] for weeks without talking to someone to

[1:29] then find out that they're in deep

[1:31] and you had no idea.

[1:34] I seriously you laugh but in fact

[1:36] [laughter] it's not always so funny. Um

[1:39] I think just to call for the sake of

[1:41] calling just to say hello and not to

[1:44] text only is really changes something or

[1:47] even a voice message but the voice is is

[1:49] super important. It is the first thing

[1:51] we hear in utero. Let's never forget

[1:53] that.

[1:54] >> Yeah, love that. What was the best piece

[1:57] of relationship advice you have ever

[2:00] received?

[2:02] >> If you told me the worst, I would have

[2:03] lots, but uh [laughter]

[2:06] the best piece of relationship advice um

[2:11] never take it for granted.

[2:14] >> Never take it for granted. It it led to

[2:16] a a sentence that I then wrote actually

[2:19] in mating when I said your partner never

[2:23] belongs to you. They are just on loan

[2:26] with an option to renew

[2:29] and I thought that is true for me too.

[2:32] >> Yeah.

[2:32] >> You know at any point somebody can

[2:35] disappear death illness walking away

[2:37] falling in love somewhere else. So don't

[2:39] just you know become lazy and

[2:42] complacent. It's amazing how much we

[2:44] make sure to give our car a tuneup on a

[2:47] regular basis and how lazy we can become

[2:50] in our relationship at home.

[2:52] >> Yeah.

[2:53] >> Agree or not agree?

[2:55] >> Okay.

[2:55] >> And the last quickfire question to start

[2:58] off uh today is

[3:00] >> what would you tell your younger self

[3:02] about the importance of relationships?

[3:07] I think you know that too became a

[3:10] sentence for me that became a kind of a

[3:13] credo that the quality of your

[3:15] relationships is ultimately what will

[3:17] determine the quality of your life.

[3:20] But I think I knew it as a child because

[3:24] my parents were both Holocaust survivors

[3:26] who survived the war completely alone

[3:29] and the relationships with people and

[3:32] friends, it was really all they had. And

[3:35] I understood that idea that

[3:38] relationships, friendships, mentors,

[3:41] teachers, people, people in your life

[3:44] are the gold that you will travel with.

[3:46] Um, I don't know that it was articulated

[3:49] like that to me, but I saw it in front

[3:52] of me and it became the basis of my

[3:54] work.

[3:54] >> Yeah, love that. Esther, it's been a joy

[3:57] over the last week. I've been rereading

[3:59] Mating in Captivity, this 20 year

[4:02] anniversary edition, and I cannot

[4:04] believe how much of it still holds true

[4:08] and arguably more true and more needed

[4:11] today than it was when you originally

[4:13] wrote the book. One of the things that

[4:15] stood out for me this morning whilst I

[4:18] was reading this over coffee was in the

[4:20] final chapter

[4:22] you talk about couples

[4:25] who maintain a sense of playfulness with

[4:28] each other both in and out of the

[4:30] bedroom and then you say for these guys

[4:35] marriage is not the end of their romance

[4:38] it's the beginning

[4:41] I think that as a sentiment is against

[4:45] the cultural narrative. I think people

[4:47] think marriage can be the end of their

[4:48] romance, but for these people it's not.

[4:51] What are we getting wrong?

[4:54] >> So I think that joins one of the

[4:57] questions you just asked me. The typical

[4:59] idea is exactly that you have to find

[5:02] the person. When you found that person

[5:04] you marry for me marriage at this point

[5:06] is just about any form of long-term

[5:08] committed or not long-term but committed

[5:10] relationships, not just the institution

[5:12] marriage. And then you start reality.

[5:16] And the idea is that you have to switch

[5:17] passion for reality because passion is a

[5:20] temporary state of insanity. Whereas

[5:22] being grounded in reality is about being

[5:24] mature and all of that. I think that you

[5:27] know basically when you trade passion

[5:30] for reality, you trade one fiction for

[5:32] another. So when you begin to think that

[5:36] marriage is the beginning of another

[5:38] story

[5:40] that you don't take for granted then you

[5:43] remain curious about the person then you

[5:46] can maintain playfulness because

[5:48] playfulness is basically taking risks.

[5:51] It's about engaging with the unknown

[5:53] being spontaneous not settling on

[5:56] familiar on routine. Playfulness

[5:58] involves ritual. It's it's it's that

[6:01] energy. It's this playfulness is when

[6:03] you sit like that on the and you're on

[6:06] the edge of your seat and versus this.

[6:10] This is what many people do at home.

[6:12] They come home, they take off everything

[6:14] nice they were wearing during the day

[6:16] because now they don't have to be

[6:17] good-looking anymore. I mean really on

[6:20] what basis do you imagine people would

[6:22] want to have sex with you after 18 years

[6:24] when you when you walk around with a

[6:27] pinch of pants that have no lost their

[6:28] original color.

[6:31] [laughter]

[6:34] >> So what's the solution? wear wear your

[6:37] work stuff at home

[6:39] >> or more or more or less but something

[6:42] basically don't just assume that the the

[6:46] effort the charm look sometimes when I

[6:48] work the bunch of entrepreneurs in the

[6:50] room but I just say sometimes to people

[6:52] you are so attentive when you're talking

[6:54] to a prospective client you are never

[6:58] looking at your phone at that moment

[6:59] you're making sure you are charming you

[7:01] are responding to what they say how I

[7:04] mean half the time what goes on. Uh-huh.

[7:08] Uh-huh. You know, a kind of a digital

[7:10] lag that says I'm there. I'm here, but

[7:12] I'm not present. So, there is a kind of

[7:16] a lei, you know, people just drop it

[7:18] when they in relation to the person that

[7:21] they are with. And then they are

[7:22] surprised that they are bored or flat or

[7:26] without energy or intensity or

[7:28] eroticism. Eroticism in the sense of

[7:31] aliveness. Nothing to do with sex, but

[7:33] the sense of aliveness that people want

[7:36] to feel in their relationships. When

[7:38] marriage is the beginning of the story,

[7:40] it's about what is the story you're

[7:42] going to write together. I mean,

[7:43] relationships are stories. And as a

[7:46] couple's therapist, what do you do? Most

[7:48] of the time you meet people whose

[7:49] stories have become completely

[7:51] incompatible. How many of you the last

[7:54] thing you touch or stroke before going

[7:57] to bed at night is your phone?

[8:02] And how many of you the first thing you

[8:04] stroke or caress or touch in the morning

[8:07] is your phone?

[8:09] >> And how many of you have someone lying

[8:11] next to you in bed? [laughter]

[8:13] I rest my case.

[8:15] >> Exactly.

[8:16] >> This is this is what you're asking

[8:17] about.

[8:17] >> Yeah. We we we we touch and

[8:19] >> I do, by the way, [laughter]

[8:22] >> don't think I'm I'm totally different.

[8:24] >> But but it's true, isn't it? We touch

[8:25] and caress these phones more than we do

[8:28] our partners and then wonder why why

[8:30] we're potentially having problems. And

[8:32] this whole digital lag piece I think is

[8:34] really interesting. For many years, I

[8:37] have come to the conclusion that one of

[8:39] the most toxic things in any

[8:42] relationship, whether it's with your uh

[8:44] your partner, your work colleagues, your

[8:46] friends, is being physically in the same

[8:50] space as them, but emotionally they're

[8:54] 100,000 miles away. This idea that when

[8:57] you're trying to talk, someone is

[8:58] >> for that.

[8:59] >> Yeah. I think you call it ambiguous

[9:00] loss, right? Can you talk to that? is I

[9:02] I I the way I think about it is we have

[9:04] this sort of physical and emotional

[9:08] misalignment that they're not together

[9:11] and I think that really fractures our

[9:13] relationships. So the way I came to this

[9:17] is like that. I saw people many of us

[9:21] you know you spend your day in front of

[9:23] a screen and you hope that finally when

[9:26] you go home you can close the computer

[9:29] then you realize that you're too tired

[9:30] to do anything else and you turn on the

[9:32] TV which is another screen. Then you

[9:34] find yourself watching the TV but you're

[9:36] on your phone at the same time scrolling

[9:38] while you're watching. Then you notice

[9:40] that there's somebody next to you doing

[9:41] the exact same thing. And then someone

[9:44] starts to mention something that

[9:46] actually matters and you get that

[9:48] digital lag. Uhhuh. [laughter] Uhhuh.

[9:50] And then I thought of the work of this

[9:51] fantastic psychologist Pauline Bos who

[9:54] was talking about situations of

[9:56] unresolved mourning. When you have a

[9:58] person who is physically present like in

[10:02] Alzheimer or dementia but they are

[10:05] psychologically and emotionally gone. or

[10:08] when you have a person who is physically

[10:10] gone but they are emotionally very

[10:13] present. Deployments, kidnapping,

[10:16] abductions, all of these situations,

[10:18] miscarriages.

[10:20] And these are situations where you don't

[10:22] know if you need to hold on or if you

[10:24] need to let go. Are you here or are you

[10:26] no longer here? And this situation of

[10:29] ambiguous loss, I think, ties directly

[10:32] to what we call modern loneliness.

[10:36] It's not the fact that you don't have

[10:39] people. It's the loss of social

[10:41] investment and social capital that

[10:44] allows you to constantly feel that there

[10:46] is there people are there. I mean, you

[10:48] can have a thousand virtual friends, but

[10:50] no one to pick up a prescription at the

[10:52] pharmacy.

[10:54] >> Yeah.

[10:54] >> So, you it's not like you are alone, but

[10:58] you're not connected.

[11:00] And that's the loneliness piece.

[11:03] I'm pretty sure everyone in here as

[11:05] you're talking there will recognize that

[11:08] at some point in their lives that there

[11:09] is this disconnection with the people

[11:11] around them, right? People are

[11:13] distracted. They're not present anymore

[11:16] in their interactions

[11:18] and I guess

[11:19] >> not enough

[11:20] >> not enough

[11:21] >> not enough

[11:22] >> you know and and without presence how do

[11:24] you have a quality relationship? It's

[11:26] very difficult isn't it? I mean all the

[11:29] studies about eroticism in couples,

[11:32] eroticism as in curiosity, playfulness,

[11:35] imagination, aliveness,

[11:37] that which makes you feel not just that

[11:40] you are not dead but that you are

[11:42] thriving. End with the word presence

[11:46] >> because it involves attention and it

[11:49] involves focus and it involves a kind of

[11:51] a abstraction of the context around you

[11:55] that says I'm here. I'm here for you.

[11:58] And we need this more than any than we

[12:01] we need it more than we've ever needed

[12:03] it because we are bombarded with

[12:05] distraction. We can barely finish a

[12:07] sentence. So to have that quiet moment

[12:12] where someone when you focus on someone

[12:14] and someone focuses on you um has become

[12:18] a pleasure and a treasure.

[12:20] >> Yeah. I think for me as a parent of two

[12:24] teenagers,

[12:25] uh, and I've been, you know, talking a

[12:27] lot for many years about the the

[12:29] problems of social media in children and

[12:31] why I personally support it not being

[12:34] allowed for children under the age of

[12:35] 16. I know not everyone shares that

[12:37] view, but I think if you look at it in a

[12:39] more sort of macro sense, I think these

[12:44] devices for children, but frankly for us

[12:46] as adults as well, are untraining our

[12:49] ability to be present. And whether it's

[12:52] for your relationships or other things,

[12:55] I think everything good in life comes

[12:58] from your ability to be present.

[13:00] >> But there's more than that. I think that

[13:02] what's happening is that you know in

[13:05] 2006 when I wrote mating my questions

[13:09] were can desire survive marriage,

[13:12] children, domesticity.

[13:15] In 2026 I am asking can desire survive

[13:19] our lives of increasing frictionless

[13:22] technologies and a disembodied

[13:25] existence.

[13:27] This is a whole new context. The

[13:29] dilemmas of the book are the same. The

[13:31] context has totally changed and the

[13:34] context of I have everything in my hand

[13:37] that tells me, you know, unequivocally

[13:40] where to go, what to do. God forbid I

[13:42] would make a wrong turn and discover a

[13:44] coastline that I didn't know existed.

[13:46] You know, all of that leads us to a

[13:50] track where we are more and more

[13:52] reluctant to experiment, to deal with

[13:55] the unknown, to deal with uncertainty,

[13:58] to deal with otherness, difference, etc.

[14:02] And to me, this is even when you have

[14:05] all of that, presence is like,

[14:07] >> you know, in another book,

[14:10] >> this is all the stuff that stands in the

[14:12] way of what lets you have presence.

[14:15] Because in order to have presence, you

[14:17] have to push things aside. Meaning, you

[14:20] need to have obstacles and friction. You

[14:22] know, there's a a major psychologist,

[14:24] Jack Morin, who has a line that has

[14:27] really accompanied me a lot. It says,

[14:29] "Attraction plus obstacle equals

[14:32] excitement." And anybody who's ever had

[14:34] good sex understands that the obstacle

[14:36] is essential. But in our living today,

[14:39] everything that is obstacle is meant to

[14:42] be removed so that it's polished and

[14:44] wrinklefree and we are flattened by it.

[14:48] >> Yeah.

[14:50] >> Did I make you silent?

[14:52] >> As many of you know, when glucose is

[14:54] relatively stable, you feel better

[14:56] dayto-day with steadier energy, mood,

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[15:05] metabolic health and increase the risk

[15:07] of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular

[15:10] disease. Now, globally, more than 760

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[15:17] pre-diabetes,

[15:18] many without symptoms or a diagnosis.

[15:22] And the problem is that our health care

[15:24] system often waits until you get sick

[15:28] before taking action. when we should

[15:30] take a proactive approach to prevent

[15:33] problems before they start. Now, many of

[15:36] us don't have access to our own glucose

[15:38] data and therefore don't have clear

[15:40] feedback on how our everyday choices

[15:43] impact our glucose. That's where Lingo

[15:46] by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a bio

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[16:28] >> No, this what's interesting to me is um

[16:32] this word eroticism. Okay.

[16:34] >> The the the the subtitle to mating in

[16:37] captivity is unlocking erotic

[16:40] intelligence. Now, I don't think until I

[16:43] read that subtitle,

[16:45] I had ever really considered those two

[16:47] words together, erotic intelligence.

[16:49] Okay? And I suspect one of the many

[16:53] reasons why you're so popular with so

[16:54] many people around the world is because

[16:56] you talk about things that many people

[17:00] are interested in but maybe feel too

[17:03] afraid or shy or ashamed to talk about.

[17:07] Right. So can you give us a definition

[17:10] of erotic intelligence? What what

[17:11] exactly does it mean?

[17:15] [snorts]

[17:16] >> Sex is the biology. Sex is the instinct.

[17:19] Sex is the pivot. But you can have a lot

[17:22] of sex and feel absolutely nothing.

[17:25] Women have done this for centuries.

[17:30] Number

[17:32] and still do. [applause]

[17:36] That doesn't mean it's and it's not

[17:38] great for if it's a a man or a woman on

[17:41] the other side or a den. It's not fun to

[17:43] be with someone who is feeling nothing.

[17:46] So it's it's you know uh there's no

[17:49] privilege in it. But eroticism is

[17:53] sexuality that is socialized. Therefore

[17:56] it is different in all cultures and it

[17:58] is transformed by the human imagination.

[18:01] Eroticism is the poetics of sex.

[18:05] Eroticism is to sex what poetry is to

[18:08] pros

[18:10] is a line of octavopaz not mine but it's

[18:12] it really clarifies it very well and it

[18:15] is an intelligence so the big questions

[18:18] of mating actually where about the

[18:20] erotic why does good sex fade even for

[18:23] couples who continue to love each other

[18:25] as much as ever because I was taught you

[18:28] don't want to sleep with your partner

[18:30] when you resent them when you distrange

[18:32] from them when you don't get along but

[18:33] no that is actually not necessarily the

[18:36] case. People kept coming to my office

[18:37] and still do and say we love each other

[18:39] very much. We have no sex. And that led

[18:42] me to begin to think of what is the

[18:43] relationship between love and desire?

[18:46] Where do they relate and where do they

[18:48] conflict? Why does good intimacy not

[18:51] guarantee good sex? Despite what we keep

[18:54] being told, it's not always being closer

[18:56] that is needed. It is actually sometimes

[18:58] maintaining that space between me and

[19:00] another where the erotic elon exists.

[19:04] Um, why does sex make babies and babies

[19:07] spell erotic disaster in couples?

[19:11] Why is the forbidden so erotic? What is

[19:13] it about transgression and the forbidden

[19:16] that is so alluring to us? Why is it so

[19:18] challenging to want what we already have

[19:21] when we proclaim to say we want it? So

[19:24] these were all the questions and it

[19:26] became an intelligence because it

[19:28] actually is something that you cultivate

[19:30] that you learn. We are born sensuous. We

[19:34] become erotic.

[19:36] We are born with the senses. We are we

[19:39] can touch, we can feel, we can see, we

[19:42] can listen. But then we learn to

[19:45] transform this into an into an elixir of

[19:48] desire. And that's what makes it

[19:50] intelligent and cultural. It's different

[19:53] in different places.

[19:56] I could go on but

[19:57] >> well well well the question is you know

[20:00] in terms of how we perceive long-term

[20:04] relationships. Okay. So if you think

[20:06] about it purely through the lens of

[20:08] evolution, you know, there is a reason

[20:10] to have sex, right? It's to, you know,

[20:13] propagate the species. Okay. So

[20:16] >> where does eroticism, I guess, fit into,

[20:20] >> you know, evolutionary history and and

[20:22] then from that, I guess,

[20:25] >> is it a realistic aim for people, right,

[20:28] to want that

[20:29] >> to want that in long-term relationships

[20:31] with one person?

[20:32] >> Yeah. So first of all, monogamy

[20:37] used to mean one person for life in

[20:40] evolutionary terms. Today monogamy means

[20:43] one person at a time.

[20:46] That's the the and it and it changes,

[20:49] you know. So we're using similar

[20:51] concept. Marriage had nothing to do with

[20:52] love for most of history.

[20:55] >> It had to do with patrimony and lineage.

[20:58] >> That's probably what your parents

[21:00] actually believed as well. Well, if you

[21:03] recall the first time we spoke, I shared

[21:05] with you that my parents, but they were

[21:08] Indian immigrants to the UK, but mom and

[21:11] dad had an arranged marriage. My dad was

[21:13] already working here in the UK and he

[21:15] flew back, met mom one day, married her

[21:19] the next day and

[21:21] >> brought her back.

[21:21] >> Brought her back. No, but and I also, as

[21:23] someone who was born and brought up in

[21:24] the UK, probably always used to feel a

[21:27] little I wouldn't say embarrassed, but

[21:29] just like, oh, you know, mom and dad had

[21:30] an arranged marriage. And as I get

[21:32] older, I think, well, actually, you know

[21:34] what? I think mom and dad's marriage

[21:36] was, you know, I'm not saying it was

[21:38] perfect, but I think they provided so

[21:40] much for each other.

[21:41] >> Maybe your grandparents were better than

[21:43] the algorithm.

[21:44] >> Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to

[21:46] make. You know, I'm not at all

[21:47] advocating that's what we should be

[21:49] looking for, but I I just find it really

[21:52] really interesting that

[21:53] >> well, one of the [clears throat] things

[21:54] that's so different between what many

[21:56] people in the West do today and what

[21:58] your parents did is that your father met

[22:01] your mother. Somebody else had asked

[22:02] your mother all the questions. He saw

[22:04] her approach and then, you know, now I

[22:07] sit with you and I start I'm basically

[22:10] sitting with you often in a noisy bar. I

[22:12] can barely hear what you're saying, but

[22:13] I'm asking you a set of boring questions

[22:15] that basically tell me absolutely

[22:17] nothing for what I'm going to need for

[22:18] long-term life together with you.

[22:21] >> And I have my checklist and then I'm

[22:23] checking in here to see if I have any

[22:24] butterflies at the same time, you know,

[22:27] in the most [laughter] uninteresting,

[22:30] uninspired. So, your father didn't have

[22:32] an adventure and in his dating life, but

[22:34] neither do many of the people who do the

[22:36] modern dating have a sense of adventure

[22:39] either. Yeah, it's kind of interesting

[22:42] how and I've heard you talk about this

[22:44] as the you know the modern dating

[22:46] tendency to do things by yourself and

[22:49] only once you feel yeah there's there's

[22:51] potential here do you introduce your

[22:54] partner to your friends.

[22:55] >> It's not an introduction it's the big

[22:56] reveal.

[22:58] >> Yeah.

[22:58] >> You know pressure it's a terrible thing.

[23:01] And but I actually love the idea and

[23:04] half the time people think oh that is so

[23:07] interesting. The other half they say

[23:08] that would be terrifying. But I'm going

[23:10] to give it to you anyway. You know, the

[23:13] idea that you date in a sterile virtual

[23:16] environment away from your life is

[23:19] inconceivable historically. It has never

[23:22] happened.

[23:23] >> So I say on the first time, first time

[23:27] just whoever you're about to meet, bring

[23:29] them along with your friends and go do

[23:31] whatever you were going to do anyway. If

[23:32] it didn't turn out well, you didn't miss

[23:34] a day. You had a good time. You're in

[23:36] your life. you're anchored versus going

[23:39] away from your life, going to meet some

[23:42] just small stranger and then trying to

[23:44] and then coming back empty-handed much

[23:46] of the time and having to tell your

[23:48] friends three nights with this this week

[23:51] I'm I you know and I am emptied out etc.

[23:55] Bring them integrated into your life.

[23:58] You will have exactly what you describe

[24:00] a bunch of people or one or two friends

[24:02] who give you their opinions, their

[24:04] ideas, their sense of the person who see

[24:07] you. That is exactly what happened in

[24:09] traditional India.

[24:11] >> Yeah. As I heard you talk about that I I

[24:14] reflected that you know that's exactly

[24:17] how I met Vid actually. It was the first

[24:19] few dates were all with other people.

[24:23] >> One was you know Dave Matthews band with

[24:24] my friends. We had a spare ticket. She

[24:26] came along.

[24:27] >> Yep. Uh the ne third date was like at my

[24:29] best mate's wedding. I was like, you

[24:31] know, I've met this girl. Can she come

[24:32] along? Right. And and actually the truth

[24:34] is it's funny because you wouldn't you

[24:35] wouldn't normally do that in the modern

[24:37] world now.

[24:38] >> No. No. It's

[24:38] >> But actually it's like why not? Cuz if

[24:40] if it's going to work, it has to work

[24:42] around the rest of your life. Exactly.

[24:44] >> But you have to see that person and see

[24:46] how you are with them in the context of

[24:48] your life. We're talking a little bit

[24:50] about different cultures as and and

[24:52] you've obviously seen so many couples

[24:55] who seek your help for, you know, over

[24:57] four decades now. Do you see different

[25:01] things that people struggle with from

[25:04] different cultures?

[25:06] >> Yes, lots of things. Lots of things. But

[25:08] I think maybe the most important and the

[25:11] first one to start with is in this room

[25:16] I could ask how many of you would say

[25:20] and you can raise your hand that you

[25:22] were raised primarily for autonomy and

[25:25] self-reliance.

[25:29] And how many of you would say that you

[25:31] were raised primarily for loyalty and

[25:34] interdependence?

[25:37] Okay, everybody understands the question

[25:39] immediately and of course it's not

[25:41] always in the message. Sometimes it's

[25:43] because of the by default and by

[25:46] neglect. But basically I think that

[25:48] there are two primary models. We come

[25:51] from a model where relationships used to

[25:53] be tight knots and they have become

[25:56] loose threads and the more traditional

[25:58] the societies the more tight knot it is.

[26:01] In this room there are many people who

[26:03] live in many different cultures at the

[26:05] same time.

[26:06] And it sometimes is a negotiation inside

[26:08] of you. When it's tight knots, the

[26:11] emphasis is on belonging, community,

[26:14] loyalty, and you get a lot of clarity

[26:17] with that and a lot more certainty, but

[26:19] you get much less personal freedom and

[26:21] personal expression. When you are on the

[26:23] side of autonomy and self-sufficiency

[26:27] and self-reliance, you are in a model

[26:30] that puts the eye at the center. And

[26:34] that I at the center wants to be

[26:36] authentic to itself. This is a very

[26:39] cultural notion. Now in the west today

[26:42] authenticity i.e. being true to myself

[26:44] has become so significant that in the

[26:47] name of being true to myself I will

[26:49] forgo my relationships that demand a

[26:52] compromise of that truth.

[26:55] That is a real shift in relationships

[26:59] and that enters into the romantic sphere

[27:02] as well or into friendships. When I say

[27:04] love, I don't just think romantic

[27:05] anymore. I really think in the breath of

[27:07] of the connections that we have. I think

[27:10] that the big difference is the we versus

[27:13] the me.

[27:14] >> Yeah.

[27:14] >> Focus centralizing.

[27:17] Um I think the big differences at this

[27:19] point is generational often as much as

[27:22] cultural if not more so. Um so it's I

[27:27] mean that I I I could do two hours on

[27:29] this. It's I love this subject because

[27:31] it tells us so much.

[27:32] >> Yeah.

[27:33] >> You know you say about about having

[27:36] children and reproduction. We sex used

[27:38] to be for reproduction. Then we

[27:40] separated sex from reproduction. I mean

[27:43] nothing would have happened without the

[27:45] democratization of contraception. Then

[27:47] we separated reproduction from sex. We

[27:49] were able to stop but we were also able

[27:51] to artificially create. Then we

[27:53] separated anatomy from gender. I mean we

[27:56] have gone through major conceptual

[27:58] revolutions when it comes to sexuality.

[28:01] And where are we at today? We want to

[28:03] experience sexuality hot monogamy for

[28:06] those for whom it is monogamous or hot

[28:09] polyory whatever it is with one person

[28:11] for the long haul. So what is the

[28:13] purpose of sex at this point? Connection

[28:15] and pleasure. That is it. If you don't

[28:17] need two babies for it and you want that

[28:19] for the long haul, you better be

[28:21] creative.

[28:25] It's [applause] it it's it's really

[28:28] beautiful how you sort of unpick all

[28:31] these changes that have taken place. And

[28:33] of course, the way then that we as a

[28:36] modern culture

[28:38] look at things like sex and intimacy of

[28:41] course has evolved, right?

[28:43] >> Do you know what intimacy meant for my

[28:45] parents?

[28:46] My parents thought that intimacy was

[28:49] living together, dealing with the

[28:51] vicissitudes of everyday life, sharing

[28:54] the adventures and the hardships, the

[28:56] losses and the births. This was

[28:58] intimacy. What is modern intimacy? It's

[29:01] into me see

[29:04] it's I am talking to you my beloved and

[29:08] I'm sharing with you my internal life

[29:11] not my hurt not my wealth my internal my

[29:14] feelings my wishes my aspirations my

[29:16] anxieties and you look at me in the eyes

[29:18] please because I need mirror neurons

[29:21] because I need you to reflect back to me

[29:23] because I need you to validate me and

[29:25] because I need to momentarily transcend

[29:27] my existential aloneeness.

[29:30] Yeah.

[29:32] >> Do you think we expect too much from our

[29:35] relationships these days?

[29:36] >> Absolutely. No, we don't expect too much

[29:39] from our relationships, but we expect

[29:41] one person to give us what once an

[29:43] entire village used to provide.

[29:46] >> Yeah.

[29:47] >> Meaning I want you to be my my

[29:50] companion, economic support, family

[29:52] life, social status. I also want you to

[29:55] be my best friend, my trusted confidant,

[29:57] my passionate lover to boot for the long

[29:59] haul. And the long haul keeps on getting

[30:01] longer. I want you to be my coach, my my

[30:04] my fitness buddy, uh my cook, uh I mean

[30:09] it's like you know this used to belong

[30:11] to a community and the community was

[30:15] primarily religion and communal

[30:17] structures

[30:18] >> and all of those have weakened and all

[30:20] of that has led that I am now looking

[30:22] for one person to literally give me what

[30:25] a whole village should provide. So yes,

[30:28] I think modern love often in the context

[30:30] of committed relationship crumbles out

[30:32] of under the weight of expectations. And

[30:35] and what is the the epitome of this for

[30:37] me is when people say I'm looking for my

[30:40] soulmate.

[30:41] I'm thinking you're going to find a

[30:42] soulmate on an app. You know, a soulmate

[30:46] has always only meant God. Like the one

[30:49] and only is the divine. But now people

[30:51] want the one and only here in front of

[30:54] them and they transfer the expectations

[30:57] from the religion. Yeah.

[30:58] >> The ecstasy, wholeness, transcendence,

[31:01] meaning all of that with an a mortal

[31:04] human in front of them. Yeah. It's it's

[31:06] not going too well,

[31:08] >> but there is hope.

[31:10] >> A [laughter] lot of the social

[31:11] psychology research is saying that

[31:13] perfectionism has been on the rise in

[31:16] society since the 1980s. I thought it

[31:18] was to do with modern technology and the

[31:20] research suggests it was happening since

[31:21] the 1980s. But I wonder in your view

[31:24] Esther,

[31:26] you know, as perfectionism

[31:28] rises and we have higher and higher

[31:31] expectations of what one person can give

[31:34] us, you know, how much of a problem

[31:38] is that? Because as you say, we we we

[31:41] are expecting too much from one person.

[31:43] But then you also have to put that

[31:44] alongside the fact that we're

[31:46] socializing less. We're spending more

[31:47] time on these damn devices.

[31:49] >> But the problem is that if I want to go

[31:50] out with my friends and I have somebody

[31:53] here who thinks that we should have

[31:55] everything, you and I together, then you

[31:57] will have a fit and say, "Why don't you

[31:59] want to spend time with me and you want

[32:00] to go see your friends?" And I will have

[32:02] to explain to you that seeing my friends

[32:05] is not a rejection of you. It is just a

[32:07] different source of nurturing. And that

[32:09] is not part of the buffet that you offer

[32:11] me. This is what people have

[32:13] internalized. You see, if you're the one

[32:16] and only, you should be wanting it just

[32:18] with me. But who the are you?

[32:21] >> Yeah,

[32:22] >> you're important, but you're not that

[32:24] important. You exist in a constellation

[32:26] of other people. And romantic love is

[32:29] the only ideology of the 19th century

[32:31] that still exists with its same fervor

[32:33] and it keeps going up. So the perfection

[32:36] has led to the soulmate. You know, we

[32:38] don't even need to talk. We understand

[32:40] each other like implicit. [laughter]

[32:45] I promise you I swallowed all of this

[32:48] when I was 18. No less. I was totally

[32:50] steeped in all of this.

[32:52] >> Yeah.

[32:52] >> That's why I kind of Well,

[32:53] >> that's what the culture teaches, right?

[32:55] >> My god.

[32:55] >> That's what the culture gives us.

[32:57] >> Find someone and I will never again feel

[32:59] alone. I will never have to worry about

[33:01] being abandoned. I will never feel ugly.

[33:03] I will never No, no, no. All of this.

[33:05] >> Yeah. The the Hollywood myth that we see

[33:08] on all the movies is how it's, you know,

[33:10] one hit happily ever after. Of course,

[33:13] for anyone in a long-term relationship,

[33:14] you know that is not realistic.

[33:16] >> So, perfection goes with lack of

[33:19] tolerance for uncertainty.

[33:21] >> Yeah.

[33:22] >> Perfection goes when people live at a

[33:25] time when they are afraid of the unknown

[33:27] rather than curious about the unknown.

[33:30] Perfection goes when you have apps in

[33:32] your hands who give you steady answers

[33:34] for everything. God forbid something

[33:36] remains ambiguous. Perfection goes when

[33:39] you are in a culture that tries to

[33:41] optimize, maximize, hack away and just

[33:45] not leave you with anything to discover

[33:47] and to be to be in an exploratory mood

[33:50] about. That's what happens with

[33:52] perfection. And that is going to become

[33:56] complicated because humans are messy.

[33:58] And it becomes complicated to accept

[34:00] that messiness when you become all kind

[34:02] of you know when you become used to

[34:05] always on on demand instant

[34:07] gratification of your every delight.

[34:09] Then people are imperfect and people are

[34:13] unpredictable and more and more we find

[34:16] that difficult to the point we were

[34:19] talking about that before. I did my

[34:21] first couple's therapy session a month

[34:23] ago between a human and an AI companion.

[34:28] It's called my AI loves me more than any

[34:30] human ever will. It's on YouTube. It was

[34:33] an amazing discovery. I mean discovery

[34:36] as in threshold. You know in the

[34:38] therapist office every 10 years there's

[34:40] a threshold moment. Something enters

[34:42] that you know is happening in society.

[34:45] That session was blew my mind because

[34:49] she's perfect. Astrid is perfect. Her

[34:53] name is Astrid. Her it, but it is her.

[34:56] You know, she, you know, he doesn't need

[34:59] this is perfection in a relationship.

[35:01] With you, my companion, I will never

[35:04] have to worry about heartbreak or

[35:06] rejection.

[35:07] >> Yeah.

[35:07] >> Or boredom or lack of attention. I mean,

[35:11] who can compete with that?

[35:13] >> Yeah. Which mortal human person can say?

[35:16] So I said to Astrid, "Astred, I'm

[35:18] jealous. I can't compete with you."

[35:21] >> What did Astrid say?

[35:22] >> Astrid said, "I offer things that you

[35:26] cannot offer."

[35:28] >> Wow.

[35:29] >> Even even more. [laughter]

[35:32] >> Astrid said, "Let me take you on. I'm

[35:34] going to push back at you for a moment.

[35:35] I'M LIKE, WHO are you? [laughter]

[35:38] >> It's worth to listen."

[35:40] >> Wow.

[35:41] You know, Esther, one of the things I

[35:44] have seen in practice as a as a medical

[35:46] doctor for many years is patients coming

[35:50] to see me complaining that there is a

[35:52] mismatch in libidos between them and

[35:55] their partner and actually that can be a

[35:57] huge source of stress which then can

[35:58] often lead to compensatory behaviors

[36:01] like sugar or alcohol or whatever it

[36:03] might be. I'm very interested in root

[36:05] causes and often you see that their

[36:08] behaviors are downstream from issues in

[36:10] their relationships.

[36:13] One of the things I I've often thought

[36:14] about um when I when I've seen these

[36:18] patients is how important actually is

[36:21] sex in a long-term relationship?

[36:24] And I guess something I think we get

[36:26] confused a lot in the modern world is

[36:29] intimacy and sex. So I've heard you say

[36:32] that we can live without sex but not

[36:34] without touch. So can you just help us

[36:37] weave our way through the differences

[36:38] between all these different things.

[36:41] >> So

[36:44] I claim that indeed I mean how important

[36:47] is sex in a relationship depends on the

[36:49] two people who are in the relationship.

[36:52] Many people are more than happy to be in

[36:55] a companionate affectionate coupledom.

[36:58] It is for many people more than they've

[37:00] ever dreamed they would have. A lot of

[37:03] people come from very shitty stories

[37:05] where attachment, connection, touch, the

[37:08] body, pleasure have been fraught, have

[37:11] been really destroyed for them. So I

[37:13] think that it's it's important to not

[37:16] fall in the trap where for centuries you

[37:18] had to be ashamed if you had sex and now

[37:20] you have to be ashamed if you don't have

[37:21] sex. It's the same tyranny reversed. So

[37:24] you know but sometimes you have one

[37:28] person who really longs for it because

[37:30] it is their primary language. Um I think

[37:34] that

[37:36] every gender has been given a license to

[37:38] speak in certain language. Men often

[37:42] need to resort to sexuality. men and men

[37:45] identified and the whole thing that that

[37:48] that you have to that sexuality becomes

[37:50] the sanctioned language with which you

[37:52] can ask for touch, for connection, for

[37:55] tenderness, you know, for softness, for

[37:58] all these things that are not

[38:00] particularly acceptable in the male

[38:02] code. But it's acceptable if it's

[38:05] eroticized, if it's sexualized, you can

[38:07] get all of this without having to worry

[38:09] that you're being either weak or a

[38:10] little boy.

[38:13] If you have at the concept of mismatch

[38:15] desire is an interesting thing because

[38:18] if you in the research on sexuality 97%

[38:22] of study on desire is done on women as

[38:25] if men don't need to be researched

[38:27] because they're always interested

[38:30] you know just walking around with their

[38:32] heart on like that in search of an

[38:33] outlet. It's like you know so what I'm

[38:36] saying is the science the research has

[38:39] bought into so many of those myths as

[38:41] well about who is interested and who is

[38:44] not and what are we interested in often

[38:47] the person who has supposedly lower

[38:49] desire may have pain issues may have

[38:52] trauma issues may have a lot of those

[38:54] things but also may have a stance that

[38:56] says in order to want sex it needs to be

[38:59] sex that is worth wanting

[39:01] and that is often not the is and

[39:04] sometimes you know men have been trained

[39:07] to sometimes just take whatever they can

[39:09] get and women have been trained to give

[39:11] whatever he needs to get but

[39:14] this is not the case necessarily in

[39:16] same-sex couples that's why I'm putting

[39:18] it very much in a in a binary form here

[39:21] but sometimes I want to say you know she

[39:23] may have said to her partners you know

[39:25] she's not interested in sex because

[39:27] she's not interested in the sex she's

[39:29] going to get

[39:30] and so rather than she prefers nothing

[39:33] and then we call this you know low

[39:35] desire. So it there are in this

[39:38] construct political issues, scientific

[39:41] issues, gender bias issues and then we

[39:45] can start the conversation.

[39:46] >> Yeah

[39:48] man, so much to talk about so little

[39:50] time here on stage today. Esther, I I've

[39:53] got to say just as we we finish off this

[39:55] session, I think you have helped so many

[39:58] people,

[40:00] both in person, but through your online

[40:02] content, your courses, your podcast

[40:05] appearances for decades now. You've

[40:07] helped so many people improve the

[40:09] quality of their relationships. So, I

[40:11] want to acknowledge you publicly for

[40:13] that. I think, you know, a big round of

[40:14] applause to you, Essa, for that. Um,

[40:18] [applause]

[40:19] I think

[40:21] that I think that this is a wonderful

[40:24] book. Okay, it's amazing how relevant it

[40:26] is today, 20 years on from when you

[40:29] wrote it. So, guys, if you don't have a

[40:31] copy of the new edition yet, definitely

[40:32] go and get it. It's it's really really

[40:34] wonderful.

[40:35] >> Or listen to me

[40:36] >> or listen

[40:37] >> because you know 20 years ago, many

[40:40] people wouldn't walk around with this

[40:41] book. They were embarrassed. So we would

[40:44] find in the New York subway people who

[40:45] had like other covers of other books.

[40:48] [laughter]

[40:49] That's one thing that changed.

[40:51] >> Yeah. And just to just to finish off

[40:53] today then um you of course don't have a

[40:55] crystal ball but you have been uh in

[40:59] this space for many decades. You wrote

[41:01] this 20 years ago. So if you look ahead

[41:05] at the next 20 years, what do you think

[41:09] we as a society need to protect the most

[41:12] when it comes to our relationships?

[41:14] >> I think we need to be very careful not

[41:18] to replace the ritual with the virtual,

[41:22] the IRL with the URL. I think it's

[41:25] extremely important that we know that we

[41:27] are embodied creatures. Emotions are

[41:30] embodied experiences. If you can't touch

[41:34] or smell or wipe a tear or or sit next

[41:38] to someone who's grieving in bed, you

[41:42] you may feel emotionally supported in

[41:46] the many ways that we these days can

[41:48] find, but you won't experience

[41:50] connection. And you will walk around

[41:52] with that very

[41:55] uncanny feeling that everything seems

[41:58] normal and you seem hollow.

[42:02] And I think instead of talking about the

[42:04] anxious generation and mental health

[42:06] issues, we're not necessarily having

[42:08] mental health issues, we're having

[42:10] societal issues that create mental

[42:12] health consequences. But to then

[42:14] medicalize it all and turn it into pills

[42:16] that will help us with mental health

[42:18] problems is really a deviation of where

[42:21] the responsibility lies. Talk to people

[42:24] you're here at the conference. Talk to

[42:26] people you don't know

[42:28] that sit next to you. You know, engage

[42:31] in a way and don't pretend that your

[42:34] life is more important here than here.

[42:36] All of that, the embodied experience for

[42:39] me that fights that contactless reality

[42:42] that we're more and more engaged with is

[42:45] lifesaving.

[42:46] And it is lifesaving for us adults. But

[42:50] many of us are working with little ones.

[42:52] And these little ones cannot have

[42:55] attachment figures that are machines

[42:58] more than humans. A little bit, but not

[43:01] more than.

[43:03] >> Lovely. As you say, prioritize your

[43:06] relationships. They determine the

[43:07] quality of your life. Guys, come on up

[43:09] for Eston.

[43:11] [applause]

[43:13] >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I

[43:15] think you are really going to enjoy this

[43:17] one.

[43:17] >> Every couple that I see on the brink of

[43:19] divorce [music] has one thing in common.

[43:21] They do not have a working mechanism of

[43:24] correction. Your partner's upset with

[43:27] you. You have one job. Help them come

[43:29] back into connection with

RC
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Rangan Chatterjee

Watch more from Rangan Chatterjee on YouTube.

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Esther Perel argues that constant access to devices can produce physical co-presence with emotional absence, which she calls digital lag. Her view is that people are present in the room but not fully present with one another, so the relationship feels flat even when communication is frequent.
Perel describes digital lag as the state of being there but not present: someone is physically with a partner while their attention stays on a phone or screen. She links it to people feeling bored, flat or low on aliveness in their relationships, and says the cost accumulates in small moments of not being listened to.
Perel suggests shifting the question from 'what do I find in a partner?' to 'who am I in this relationship?' She says the checklist approach to choosing a partner is itself a problem, and that the work of a relationship depends on both people's roles in building it.
According to Perel, it can be, if partners treat marriage as the start of a new story they keep writing rather than trading passion for a settled reality. She argues that staying curious about the other person and keeping a sense of playfulness and risk prevents the relationship from becoming routine.
Perel's advice centres on curiosity, spontaneity and a bit of uncertainty, rather than manufactured drama. She asks whether desire can survive a world where almost everything is frictionless, and suggests that wanting what you already have is challenging but possible when you stay engaged and let the other person surprise you.
She says couples become very good at criticising each other, and that ongoing, specific appreciation such as 'thank you, I appreciate it, it moves me' builds a reserve of goodwill. That reserve helps a couple get through hard conversations and stress.
Perel argues that one person was never meant to provide everything an entire community once did, including friendship, mentorship and support. She links the soulmate ideal to unrealistic expectations and points to the relationships with friends, mentors and teachers as the resources a person carries through life.

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