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Inspiration

The Odyssey That Sobriety Prepared Him For

Rich Roll
Rich Roll
Oct 12, 2026
読了 約8分
視聴 · 8

Just as Joe Manganiello's career was about to reach its highest peak—the roles in Justice League, the physique that seemed carved from another world, the Hollywood momentum that belongs only to the chosen—something began eating him from the inside. A mysterious autoimmune illness. A silent freight train that nobody could see coming.

What made it worse wasn't the pain alone. It was the hiding. For years, Manganiello managed a public image of superheroic wellness while his body was staging a quiet catastrophe in private bathrooms, in hotel rooms between takes, in the spaces where the camera couldn't see. He was bleeding through the night in amounts he knew meant something was ending. Doctors couldn't name it. Tests came back inconclusive. He kept working anyway, kept performing the role of Joe Manganiello, the man who looked like a superhero and, on the surface, lived like one.

The story he tells in his memoir Bloodlines—and in the conversation that unfolds across nearly three hours of Rich Roll's podcast—isn't really about disease, though. It's about what happens when the spiritual scaffolding you've built starts to crumble, and you have to dig underneath it to see what was there all along. It's about sobriety as a kind of rehearsal, a preparation for a deeper ordeal. And it's about the discovery that the illness itself might have been written into the family tree generations before he was born.

読む · 6セクション

When Getting Sober Is Only Act One

Manganiello arrived at sobriety the way many do: through crisis, through surrender, through the understanding that one more drink would be one too many. But in his telling, that rebirth—that spiritual awakening the 12 steps promise—was not the end of his journey. It was the beginning of a new kind of endurance.

"Sobriety," he explains, "turned me into version 2.0. But it was somewhat a warm-up for the fight that I then had heading into version 3.0, which I wasn't sure if I was going to make it to."

The difference between version 2.0 and 3.0 is the difference between choosing recovery and being forced into it by your own biology. Sobriety was a choice, hard-won and daily, but still a choice. The illness that would follow wasn't. It arrived without warning, without negotiation, and it demanded something even deeper than sobriety had required: a surrender to not-knowing, to medical mystery, to the possibility of death without diagnosis.

What's striking in Manganiello's account is how he frames the connection between these two crises. He describes an old manager who used to tell him, "Joe, for a lucky guy, you're pretty unlucky." It wasn't metaphorical. There was something systemic, something that ran through his life like a current beneath the surface. Sobriety had cleaned up his behavior, had reframed his relationship with God or spirituality or whatever larger force might be listening. But it hadn't touched the deeper knots—the inherited patterns, the ancestral weights that nobody had named yet because nobody had traced them back far enough.

Addiction as Spiritual Seeking Gone Wrong

Manganiello's understanding of addiction differs from the punitive models that dominated the discourse for so long. For him, addiction wasn't primarily a moral failing or a character defect. It was a search for connection, for transcendence, for something larger than the three-dimensional realm.

"Many an addict, if not all addicts, become addicts on some level because they're seeking something," he reflects. "They're seeking some kind of connection. They're doing it in an inherent way that like derails their lives, but fundamentally it's a search for answers down, you know, dark alleys and in wrong directions."

He grew up with a certain spiritual framework—a set of answers provided by his culture, his family, his time and place. But those answers didn't fit. And so he went looking elsewhere. The addiction came with a particular spiritual flavor: godlessness, or what he calls "a spiritual bleakness." When you're in the throes of addiction, you're not just damaging your body; you're severing yourself from anything that might be watching or judging or caring. You're operating in a realm where God, if He exists at all, has been excused from the room.

Sobriety inverted that. The 12-step tradition asks for a "god of your understanding"—not a specific deity or doctrine, but something larger than yourself. AA meetings happen in church basements, Manganiello notes, because the people who show up aren't your typical congregation. They're people who've been looking for transcendence in all the wrong places and are now willing to look again, differently.

The Illness Arrives in the Middle of Success

The autoimmune disorder began its assault just as his career was ascending. By the time he was sober, rebuilt, and operating from a place of spiritual grounding, his body decided to wage war against itself. He was on a honeymoon when he first felt it—not great, he says, but he pushed through. He was preparing for massive roles. He had an ostomy bag now, which meant carrying a secret under his clothes, managing a situation that required total discretion in a profession that demands total exposure.

Most people in his position would have stepped back. Would have taken time. Would have said, "I'm sick, I need help, I can't do this now." Instead, he did what he'd been trained to do by years of pushing through the pain of addiction recovery: he worked. He filmed Deathstroke. He pursued every opportunity, convinced that the purpose, the momentum, the forward motion would somehow counteract what was happening inside his body.

It didn't. And the crumble, when it came, was total. Emergency surgery. Hospitalization. A level of physical vulnerability he'd never known. And still, the doctors couldn't tell him what was wrong. They could remove parts, they could stabilize him, but they couldn't name the enemy or promise it wouldn't come back.

The Surrender That Nearly Killed Him

Years of seeking a diagnosis across the globe. Years of "no answers," as he puts it. Travel to find specialists, to chase theories, to understand if he was going to survive this thing at all or what the hell was happening to him. The medical odyssey became its own kind of spiritual search—not for God this time, but for understanding. For someone, anyone, to explain why his body had turned against him.

What he discovered instead was that there were "a series of knots that were tied"—patterns that ran backward through time, through his family history, through bloodlines he hadn't known existed. The illness wasn't random. It was part of something larger, something inherited, something that required him to go looking into his own genealogy and his family's trauma to even begin to understand.

The sobriety, the spiritual opening that had begun in AA basements, had prepared him for this in a specific way. It had taught him how to surrender. How to admit that his will wasn't enough, that his drive to outwork a problem wouldn't solve it, that sometimes you have to sit with not-knowing and trust that there's a larger pattern at work.

Ancestor Worship and Inherited Pattern

The genealogical search led him to Santería—an ancestral spiritual tradition rooted in West African (Yoruba) and Caribbean practice. Not as exotic spiritual tourism, but as a genuine inquiry into where his patterns came from and whether the ancestors themselves held some wisdom about what was happening in his body and life.

He began learning about the orisha—the African Euroba gods and goddesses who serve as intermediaries between the human and divine worlds. He discovered Armenian and German ancestry he hadn't known about, family history that included genocide, displacement, trauma locked into the cellular and spiritual memory of his line.

"There was a day I woke up," he recalls, "and I felt like I understood something. There was a quality of nurturing that I hadn't felt before. And I realized this shows up in my marriage and it shows up in all my relationships."

The spiritual work became genealogical work. The genealogical work became psychological work. And all of it pointed to the same truth: the illness might have been the doorway through which he could finally see what had always been operating beneath the surface of his life.

Where to Go From Here

Manganiello's story doesn't resolve into a simple cure narrative. The illness is managed, but he lives with its aftermath. What changed instead is his relationship to the question itself. He stopped asking, "Why is this happening to me?" and started asking, "What is this showing me?"

That shift—from victim of circumstance to participant in a larger pattern of inherited wisdom and healing—is what animates Bloodlines and what makes his conversation with Rich Roll so urgent. For anyone navigating recovery, for anyone carrying family trauma, for anyone who's built a life of apparent success only to discover there's a deeper layer of work waiting underneath, his testimony is both warning and compass. Sobriety can rebuild you. But sometimes what's waiting on the other side of sobriety is an even larger invitation: to understand where you come from, what you carry, and what you're meant to do with it.

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Transcript

[0:01] I thought, "You're not going to make it

[0:03] one more day." Like, look at all this

[0:04] blood. Like, you don't have more. Like,

[0:06] I knew I was going to die.

[0:08] >> For the last 14 years, I've hosted over

[0:10] a thousand conversations of this

[0:12] podcast. [music]

[0:13] Today's stands out. It's very special,

[0:15] perhaps among my all-time favorites

[0:17] [music]

[0:18] because it's a beautiful, powerful, and

[0:21] emotional illustration of the [music]

[0:23] central themes of this show. The power

[0:26] and potential of the human spirit to

[0:28] face and overcome [music]

[0:29] obstacles. What happens when you embark

[0:32] upon a mind, body, and spirit journey of

[0:35] personal transformation,

[0:37] and the transcendent healing that

[0:40] transpires [music]

[0:41] when you make peace with your past. My

[0:44] partner in this exploration is [music]

[0:45] Joe Manganello, a longtime sober artist,

[0:49] actor, filmmaker, and [music] action

[0:51] star. Best known for his roles in

[0:53] Spider-Man, True Blood, [music] Magic

[0:56] Mike, Justice League, and for sporting

[0:59] perhaps the [music] best physique in

[1:00] Hollywood. What you likely don't know is

[1:04] that just as his career was about to go

[1:06] stratospheric, [music] Joe began to

[1:08] secretly suffer from a mysterious,

[1:11] seemingly undiagnosible autoimmune

[1:14] disorder [music]

[1:15] that on more than one occasion very

[1:17] nearly took his life. What he survived

[1:20] is truly superhuman. [music]

[1:22] I'm bleeding all night long in the

[1:24] bathroom in massive amounts of pain.

[1:26] They brought me into an emergency

[1:28] surgery. [music]

[1:29] Whatever you thought your life was, it's

[1:31] over.

[1:33] >> Even more impressive is [music] how he

[1:35] survived it. How he turned a healing

[1:38] journey I wouldn't wish on anyone

[1:40] [music] into this powerful new why that

[1:44] has birthed a more meaningful

[1:45] relationship with living. All of which

[1:47] he illustrates with tremendous [music]

[1:49] vulnerability in Bloodlines. His rather

[1:52] gripping newly released memoir now

[1:55] available everywhere.

[1:57] this one hits, I can't stop thinking

[1:59] about it and the life lessons he

[2:01] generously shares and I have a sneaking

[2:04] suspicion you will feel the same.

[2:08] [music]

[2:12] >> So Joe, typically when I have a sober

[2:15] person on the show,

[2:16] >> Yeah.

[2:17] >> I try to do some version or rendition of

[2:20] what it was like, what happened, and

[2:21] what it's like now. in your case. Uh I I

[2:24] want to do that, but there's a ripple uh

[2:27] to your version of this story that is

[2:29] sort of turbocharged in the what it's

[2:32] like now, like third act part.

[2:35] >> Uh

[2:36] that is almost something like who came

[2:40] before me, how did that influence me and

[2:43] my life, what did I do with that? And

[2:46] what it's like in the now after the what

[2:50] it's like now.

[2:52] You [laughter] know what I mean?

[2:53] >> Yes. Yeah. And sobriety is a huge part

[2:56] of my life obviously, [snorts]

[2:58] but um

[3:00] the process of getting sober

[3:03] turned me into version 2.0, [sighs]

[3:06] but it was

[3:08] somewhat a warm-up for the fight that I

[3:12] then had heading into version 3.0,

[3:16] >> which I wasn't sure if I was going to

[3:18] make it to.

[3:19] >> Yeah.

[3:21] It's almost as if like I did all this

[3:23] work. I've arrived in this place. I've

[3:26] rebuilt my life. I've created this

[3:29] amazing abundant life. And now this like

[3:32] I didn't bank on this. I didn't have

[3:35] this on my whiteboard.

[3:37] >> Uh haven't I suffered enough? Uh and

[3:41] here comes this freight train in your

[3:43] direction asking you to deepen your

[3:46] surrender and undergo like truly this

[3:49] odyssey

[3:51] uh of of of pain and suffering,

[3:55] self-discovery and ultimately spiritual

[3:58] transformation. Yeah, it was. Uh, but

[4:01] looking back, I can see that even into

[4:04] sobriety,

[4:07] there were things that weren't quite

[4:09] lining up. You know, in the book, I I I

[4:13] start a chapter with this phrase that an

[4:16] old manager of mine used to say to me,

[4:18] and she used to say, uh, you know, Joe,

[4:20] for a lucky guy, you're pretty [ __ ]

[4:22] unlucky. There was something that just

[4:25] wasn't quite lining up all the time. And

[4:28] I think what she was commenting on was

[4:31] the fact or from her vantage point that

[4:34] somebody who had been given seemingly

[4:38] endless amounts of advantages in life um

[4:43] things were still out of focus.

[4:44] >> Mhm.

[4:45] >> For me. And um

[4:48] and then of course uh the symptoms start

[4:51] rearing their heads and that freight

[4:53] train I can see the lights of the

[4:54] freight train and I understand [ __ ] I'm

[4:55] on the tracks and how do I get off these

[4:58] tracks? Why am I on these tracks? Have I

[5:00] always been on these tracks? And uh and

[5:03] then that spurred yes, like you said,

[5:05] the Odyssey, which was basically 10

[5:08] years at sea.

[5:09] >> Mhm.

[5:09] >> Trying to find my way back home or

[5:10] trying to understand if I was going to

[5:12] survive this thing at all or um what the

[5:14] hell was happening to me. And um where

[5:18] there were no answers. And so it started

[5:22] this this journey through

[5:26] journey across the globe for answers

[5:30] that also took me backwards in time.

[5:34] And what I realized was that there there

[5:35] was a series of knots that were tied

[5:37] just a series of knots and and sobriety

[5:39] was a part of it. And and um thank God I

[5:42] was sober. I think that really was a

[5:45] warm-up and a practice because the act

[5:49] of getting sober and staying sober, the

[5:52] act of healing spiritually, of growing

[5:54] spiritually

[5:57] then provided for me a a framework or a

[6:00] foundation

[6:02] um or an openness to other answers. Mhm.

[6:05] >> Um because I think um you know in that

[6:10] initial period of my life prior to

[6:11] getting sober,

[6:13] I was given,

[6:15] you know,

[6:17] [snorts] I was given certain answers.

[6:19] You know, you grow up in a certain time,

[6:21] a certain place, the people you're

[6:22] around believe a certain thing. You're

[6:24] you're taught right from wrong or not. I

[6:27] mean, in my case, I was taught right

[6:28] from wrong with a certain system in

[6:30] place. And um and at some point

[6:35] you let go of that or realize maybe that

[6:38] isn't for me or I don't believe all of

[6:40] this or um you know I'm talking about

[6:42] like you know kind of a spiritual you

[6:44] know foundation and and then um you know

[6:48] when you sink into addiction I think

[6:51] there's a

[6:53] there's a godlessness that happens

[6:55] because you're up to things that you're

[6:57] hoping if there is a god they're not

[6:59] watching you

[7:01] And um and so I I [snorts]

[7:04] think you then start thinking, you know,

[7:06] if God is everything or God is nothing,

[7:07] then God has to be nothing. And so

[7:09] there's this um kind of atheism I think

[7:12] that starts to happen. And then uh the

[7:14] process of getting sober, I think a lot

[7:16] of people trip up over the God thing.

[7:17] But if you go to any AA meeting, it's

[7:19] just like a bunch of people who look

[7:22] like maniacs or like, you know, like

[7:24] >> people who are not at church, you know,

[7:26] that there's a reason why, you know, AA

[7:28] they're they're they're in the basement.

[7:30] They're in the basement of the church,

[7:31] you know. Um so it's a lot of people

[7:33] that um that aren't your typical church

[7:36] going fair uh searching for some sort of

[7:39] spirituality or some sort of healing.

[7:41] And I and I and and so they ask you to,

[7:44] you know, kind of 12 steps ask you to

[7:46] famously just choose a god of your

[7:48] understanding. There's something bigger

[7:50] than you. And um [clears throat]

[7:53] and that started all that questioning

[7:55] that then helped me because I um I

[7:58] really do feel like this version 3.0 you

[8:00] know, or or or battling the battle that

[8:03] would come, that freight train that was

[8:04] heading towards me [sighs]

[8:07] would force me into a life or death

[8:10] situation where I had to find something

[8:13] >> something to believe or I was at least

[8:15] shown what to believe.

[8:18] >> I'm of the opinion that many an addict,

[8:21] if not all addicts, become addicts on

[8:24] some level because they're seeking

[8:26] something. They're seeking some kind of

[8:28] connection. They're doing it in an

[8:30] inherent way that like derails their

[8:32] lives, but fundamentally it's a it's a

[8:35] search for answers down, you know, dark

[8:37] alleys and in in wrong directions.

[8:40] >> And then when you're in the throws of

[8:41] it, Yeah. it's a it's a spiritual

[8:43] bleakness.

[8:44] >> Well, spirits, right?

[8:45] >> Yeah. Spirits. Yeah. You're you are

[8:47] possessed basically. or like the uh you

[8:49] know like Trent Resner used to talk

[8:51] about a lot of that in a lot of the

[8:53] [clears throat] early night and snail

[8:54] stuff like you know trying to get closer

[8:55] to God or find things that

[8:57] >> will get you there get you there you

[8:59] know and um

[9:00] >> get you to feel something beyond like

[9:02] the three-dimensional realm um and then

[9:05] sobriety of course is a is a sort of

[9:08] spiritual rebirth and an opportunity to

[9:10] like reestablish or reframe your

[9:13] relationship with the ineffable and you

[9:16] know that's fundamentally the solution

[9:18] But one thing about AA that's

[9:20] interesting is that

[9:22] as capacious as the steps are for a

[9:25] spiritual transformation, they are as

[9:27] deep as you want to go. Like I think

[9:29] they are you know the source code for

[9:31] you know just ultimate change and and

[9:33] and you know we've all borne witness to

[9:35] many a miracle with like you know our

[9:37] friends and our colleagues etc.

[9:39] >> Uh you know I'm thoroughly convinced

[9:41] that you know this is just a a divinely

[9:43] inspired program and just it changed my

[9:45] life. I know I would change yours. But

[9:47] within the framework of of of that um

[9:51] program of recovery, there's not a lot

[9:53] of emphasis on uh you make your amends

[9:56] for your past wrongs, etc. But but

[10:00] there's sort of a implicit

[10:02] discouragement of trying to understand

[10:04] like why you became an alcoholic in the

[10:06] first place because it's a program of

[10:07] like action and moving forward.

[10:09] >> Yeah. It's not alcoholic.

[10:10] >> It's not an it's like who cares why you

[10:12] are, you just are, right? and here's how

[10:14] to fix it and move forward. Take these

[10:17] steps and your life will will change.

[10:19] And indeed it will.

[10:21] >> But what took you from Joe 2.0 to Joe

[10:25] 3.0 is tackling that very problem. You

[10:28] know, like looking in the rearview

[10:29] mirror and trying to understand like

[10:32] everything that led up to making you

[10:34] making these decisions that that that

[10:36] you've made uh was informed by the

[10:40] people that came before you and the

[10:42] experiences that they had. And you know

[10:43] there's a there's a kind of you know

[10:45] spirituality and mysticism in that as

[10:47] well with the epigenetics of it and the

[10:49] inherited cycle of generational trauma

[10:53] and and fundamentally I think that's a

[10:56] that's a source of

[10:59] to use the word again like turbocharged

[11:02] healing like if you fundamentally want

[11:03] to heal this thing you are going to have

[11:05] to venture backwards.

[11:07] >> We have to dig the roots up. I mean, I

[11:09] was uh for me, and I'm not saying for

[11:12] everybody, but um

[11:15] you know, for me, you know, I wasn't

[11:17] randomly selected for all of this. I

[11:20] think there's a there's a there's an

[11:21] initial there was an initial phase of

[11:24] why me, why me? Why is this happening to

[11:26] me? Or what the hell is going on? Or

[11:29] um and and then you really do start

[11:32] doing some digging and um and you

[11:36] realize that this stuff goes deep. Um I

[11:39] think I have a an understanding um of of

[11:42] what happened to me. But I think that

[11:47] especially when I would try to talk to

[11:48] western doctors about it, I was looked

[11:50] upon as being pseudocientific

[11:53] [clears throat]

[11:53] >> for the things that I was thinking.

[11:56] And um and uh but I I know that there

[12:02] also is scientific precedence

[12:05] for generational trauma. And um you

[12:08] know, I talk in the book about the 2013

[12:12] Emory University study

[12:15] where

[12:17] rats were introduced to a chemical that

[12:21] gives off the scent of cherry blossoms.

[12:23] And as they were they were being given

[12:25] the scent of cherry blossoms, their feet

[12:27] would be electrically shocked.

[12:31] And over time and this repeated

[12:34] conditioning,

[12:36] they then took those rats and mated them

[12:40] with unconditioned females that were not

[12:44] driven to be afraid of the the smell of

[12:46] cherry blossoms through electric shocks.

[12:48] Unconditioned. So you have conditioned

[12:49] males meeting with unconditioned

[12:51] females. And the result were offspring

[12:55] that when given the scent of cherry

[12:57] blossoms were terrified and would run

[12:59] the other way. So they had understood

[13:02] that if they can traumatize the males,

[13:06] they will pass this genetic information

[13:08] onto their offspring even if the females

[13:10] weren't. Um, another study, you know,

[13:13] I'm I'm on the board of a company called

[13:16] Colossal Biosciences, which brought back

[13:17] the direwolf and

[13:19] >> Oh, that same company,

[13:20] >> Willie Mice and all of this.

[13:22] >> That seems like something you would sink

[13:23] your teeth [clears throat] into.

[13:24] [laughter]

[13:25] >> It kind of randomly randomly came my

[13:27] way. But, but like little did they know,

[13:29] >> they were like, "Oh, yeah, you were like

[13:30] that werewolf guy and direwolves are in

[13:33] Dungeons and Dragons." And I'm like,

[13:34] "No, no, no, no. You don't understand.

[13:36] And like I'm obsessed with all of this

[13:37] and I have a vested interest in

[13:39] epigenetics and I need to ask you some

[13:41] questions about where we're at right now

[13:43] because I'm trying to unlock this thing

[13:45] within my life and I want to understand

[13:48] you know um you know if there are other

[13:50] spiritual belief systems that could or

[13:54] you know I I wanted to know what science

[13:56] said about what I was going through. And

[13:59] um there's a Tasmanian tiger which was

[14:03] made extinct by human hunters like a

[14:06] little under a century ago about 90

[14:08] years ago and they were all wiped out.

[14:10] It's this marsupial wolf with tiger

[14:12] stripes. Super cool. Uh the thyloine is

[14:15] is the you know the the name. Um, so

[14:17] they bring back the thyloine [snorts]

[14:21] and uh

[14:23] prior to them reintroducing them to

[14:26] their old hunting grounds in Tasmania,

[14:29] they went and made um perfect

[14:34] fullcolor cutouts of the animal and

[14:37] stuck them in their old hunting grounds.

[14:40] And the animals,

[14:43] the well, the the descendants of the

[14:45] animals that were hunted by the

[14:47] Tasmanian tiger would see the cutouts

[14:50] and run away. They had a a fear of just

[14:53] the sight of the cutouts.

[14:55] >> And they've been extinct for almost a

[14:57] century. So, um, that then spurred a

[15:01] conversation about, well,

[15:04] where's where do they think generational

[15:07] trauma or that type of trauma where is

[15:09] that stored

[15:10] >> in [clears throat] the body? He said,

[15:11] no, no, no. The mitochondria.

[15:13] >> I said, okay, it's well, why did you say

[15:15] no, no, no. said, "Well, the new theory

[15:16] is that the mitochondria is actually a

[15:18] separate organism

[15:20] that we're carrying around or I'm I was

[15:22] carrying around a dark passenger." And

[15:25] which would explain why when Western

[15:28] medicine was pumping me full of all of

[15:29] these

[15:31] rheumatoid arthritis drugs or

[15:33] anti-cancer pills and combination and

[15:36] massive doses that were having really

[15:38] serious side effects on me. Um, they

[15:42] were they were shutting my body down

[15:45] without targeting

[15:47] where the trauma was actually kept. It

[15:49] was like another organism. So, they're

[15:51] shutting my body down, but this thing is

[15:52] still

[15:54] >> still riding unscathed,

[15:57] >> which blew my mind and also opened up,

[16:00] you know, my mind to the possib to to

[16:02] the understanding of of why maybe that

[16:04] wasn't working. Um, but there is

[16:06] scientific precedence for this. It's not

[16:08] pseudocience.

[16:10] But

[16:12] I can get into the metaphysics of it all

[16:15] day. You know, kind of the Yungian

[16:17] redbookie side of it where uh which is

[16:20] which is definitely where where my story

[16:23] took me.

[16:24] >> I went to some, you know, if it's using

[16:26] the Odyssey metaphor.

[16:27] >> You did quite Yeah,

[16:28] >> I went to some [laughter] weird islands,

[16:29] man. And I saw some weird things on

[16:31] those islands.

[16:31] >> Your own Sila and Caribus and you know,

[16:33] like the whole thing, you know what I

[16:35] mean? all the way to uh Odysius Matt

[16:38] Damon lying lying down on the raft and

[16:41] just saying God take me you know either

[16:42] I'm going to die or I'm going to make it

[16:44] home you know and home being in your

[16:47] case like this this spiritual

[16:48] transformation but let me just say for

[16:50] the sake of the audience who's listening

[16:52] or watching like what are we talking

[16:54] about uh Joe I mean essentially

[16:57] >> I don't know if it was the peak of your

[16:59] career but like your career is going

[17:00] really well you're like doing Justice

[17:02] League re-shoots and there's the whole

[17:04] Batman thing that's kind of like

[17:05] percolating like there's a lot of

[17:07] opportunity swirling around you and you

[17:09] get blindsided by this autoimmune uh

[17:12] disease that is mystifying western the

[17:16] western medicine doctors that that that

[17:18] you're you know visiting with and leads

[17:23] you into this you know to the depths of

[17:25] despair to like just you know horrific

[17:28] um near-death experiences and just this

[17:31] you know ongoing battle with this

[17:34] condition nobody could really figure out

[17:36] what to do about or what it is. Um, and

[17:39] this is the essence of Blood Lunger

[17:40] book. Like, it's a memoir, but it's

[17:43] really this odyssey like experience of

[17:46] navigating this disease and trying to

[17:50] find a way to heal yourself, not just in

[17:53] body, but in mind and spirit.

[17:56] >> Yes. Yeah. Trying to understand what

[17:58] happened. Um, why? Um,

[18:01] >> so walk us up to the point where you get

[18:04] this diagnosis, like what was going on

[18:06] and what happened.

[18:08] >> Yeah. So, um,

[18:12] I'm, you know, I'm I'm for better or for

[18:15] worse, you know, I am I'm a theater

[18:18] actor who becomes known for his

[18:21] physicality. Um,

[18:24] >> Carnegie Melon. Yes.

[18:25] >> You did a ton of theater.

[18:27] >> Yes.

[18:28] >> Yeah.

[18:28] >> Like mostly theater. Yeah,

[18:30] >> you've got all these big credits, Magic

[18:32] Mike and True Blood, you know, blah blah

[18:34] blah, all this sort of stuff, but like

[18:36] >> thespian artist,

[18:39] >> uh, you know, in this like, you know,

[18:42] alpha male, uh, high performing athletic

[18:45] body,

[18:46] >> right? Yes. Yeah. Um, you know, I I,

[18:51] you know, went to this great drama

[18:53] school, started off in theater. Uh, I

[18:55] have that career. I I I kind of get

[18:57] skyrocketed. I get rocketed at the

[18:59] beginning. I I get the first thing I

[19:01] audition for.

[19:02] >> You like you within like 3 days of

[19:05] signing with an agent right after

[19:06] college, you get this Spider-Man

[19:08] auditions. [laughter]

[19:10] >> And they want you for Peter Parker

[19:11] initially, right? Like like this is like

[19:13] happening overnight, literally.

[19:15] >> Yeah. And I know that I'm wrong for

[19:16] Peter Parker, so I wear a different

[19:17] outfit underneath and memorize the other

[19:19] sides that I am correct for.

[19:21] >> So when they say you're not right for

[19:23] Peter Parker, you might be right for

[19:24] this other part. I say, "Right, take the

[19:26] shirt off. take the glasses off and go

[19:28] straight into the other audition

[19:31] >> without needing the script. And the cast

[19:34] said, "Okay, I want you to meet Sam

[19:35] Ramy. How long are you in town?" I was

[19:37] visiting from college. I hadn't even

[19:39] graduated yet.

[19:39] >> You had graduated yet? I mean, there's a

[19:41] lot of life lessons just in that story

[19:43] right there about how to be prepared for

[19:45] moments.

[19:46] >> Be prepared. Hey, I'll go you the sides.

[19:47] I don't need them. What do you mean I

[19:48] don't need them? I'm already off book.

[19:50] You're off book on the other part. Yeah.

[19:52] I was hoping that you were going to say

[19:54] I was right for this, so I'm ready.

[19:56] because all I've got is a resume full of

[19:58] theater credits and I have to compete

[20:00] with people who have been doing it a

[20:01] long time and I have to get them to

[20:02] trust me.

[20:03] >> So, okay, I'm ready. So, I audition. She

[20:06] goes, "Okay, how long are you in town?"

[20:08] I go, "I'll stay as long as you need

[20:10] me." She goes, "Stay in town. Stay by

[20:12] your phone. I'm going to call you." She

[20:14] called Sam Ramy. They were getting ready

[20:16] to screen test all the Spider-Man

[20:17] candidates the following week. And um

[20:20] she got me a gig for 500 bucks to play

[20:24] the Flash Thompson, the part I

[20:26] eventually got cast in against all of

[20:28] the Spider-Man candidates and screen

[20:29] tests. So each one would come in and I'd

[20:32] keep doing the scene with them and keep

[20:33] bullying them and you know, whatever.

[20:36] And I got to meet Sam Ramy

[20:38] >> and Sam liked me and then Sam called me

[20:41] back in for a for a specific screen test

[20:43] for me only and um you know said here's

[20:47] our executive producer Grant Curtis.

[20:49] bully him. Bully him. And I was like,

[20:51] "Get on your knees." You know, he got on

[20:52] his knees. I started slapping him. I

[20:54] made him [ __ ] like a chicken. They

[20:56] thought it was hilarious. And they were

[20:58] like, "Here's uh the casting director,

[20:59] Francine. Pretend she's your girlfriend.

[21:01] Pretend she's Mary Jane." I'm like, you

[21:03] know, I'm like hitting on the casting

[21:04] doing all this funny stuff. And uh Sam

[21:06] looked at my resume afterwards and he

[21:08] said, "Uh, [sighs and snorts]

[21:10] >> okay. But you did go to Carnegie Melon."

[21:13] [laughter]

[21:14] >> Like, please, can I trust you?

[21:16] >> And you're all of what, like 21? 23. I

[21:19] was 23 and um but then of course you

[21:21] know going back to that for [snorts] a

[21:23] lucky guy you're you're you're pretty

[21:25] unlucky comment. Um you know two weeks

[21:29] after Sam Remy sends his congratulations

[21:31] that I was cast

[21:34] u my roommate comes home and says I

[21:36] think my friend auditioned for your part

[21:38] today. I was like that's impossible but

[21:39] it was true. The head of the studio

[21:42] didn't think I was all American enough

[21:43] looking.

[21:45] took it away, unbeknownst to me, and

[21:46] started auditioning other people. And

[21:48] that went on for like two months. And um

[21:53] so like Christmas Eve, my agent called

[21:55] me back and was like, "Hey, you know,

[21:57] they didn't find anybody else.

[22:00] [laughter]

[22:01] You excited?

[22:02] >> You're keeping it by default."

[22:05] >> Cool. So, you know, it was like you're

[22:07] lucky because you're gonna be in like

[22:10] the biggest movie ever attempted

[22:12] and it's Spider-Man,

[22:15] but you're unlucky because you had to go

[22:16] through all this in order to get it.

[22:19] >> So, uh anyway, that was like kind of my

[22:21] welcome to to Hollywood deal. And then

[22:24] shortly after that, you know, by the

[22:25] time Spider-Man was premiering in

[22:27] theaters, I was like completely

[22:28] bottoming out.

[22:30] >> So, on drugs and alcohol.

[22:32] >> Yeah. Um,

[22:35] and it was that summer of 2002 that

[22:37] Spider-Man came out in theaters in May.

[22:39] That whole summer I was like just

[22:41] skidding as I was like I'd get 28 days

[22:44] and go back out, get 29 days, get a

[22:47] 30-day, go out and then it took me until

[22:49] August 26 where of 2002 where that was

[22:52] day one.

[22:53] >> Where when did that start?

[22:55] >> Um the the the bottoming or

[22:58] >> no the the just the the drinking and the

[23:00] drugs and you know just the using. Yeah,

[23:03] I think um

[23:05] you know I I always felt growing up like

[23:07] I was born without skin.

[23:10] I was very empathetic and and I don't

[23:13] mean that in like a [ __ ] you know

[23:15] [ __ ] way. I mean that when I played

[23:18] cards as a little kid, I could tell what

[23:21] the adults had in their hands. I could

[23:23] know how they were playing and I would

[23:25] beat the adults. I'd know, don't put

[23:27] that card down because they're going to

[23:28] take it because they need that's the one

[23:29] they need the way they're playing. I

[23:30] could sense all the, you know, I

[23:32] >> I could tell what, you know, adults were

[23:35] feeling. Um,

[23:38] and uh, and I think that was all a

[23:41] little too much for me. And I always

[23:44] looked at

[23:46] I looked at the other kids. I looked at

[23:49] beer commercials and I went, "How come

[23:52] everybody else has it so easy and I feel

[23:55] so complicated?" Um,

[23:58] I had so much like so many storms inside

[24:01] me that were rumbling that I just

[24:02] couldn't get out and they would always

[24:05] sabotage me in those great moments, you

[24:07] know, like

[24:08] >> the girl who's cheerleader who I really

[24:12] liked and her parents are out of town

[24:14] and she's having a party and let's go to

[24:16] my room and talk and I just want to talk

[24:19] about how, you know, how depressed,

[24:22] [laughter] you know, like I

[24:25] >> like in those moments where you're like,

[24:27] >> "Dude, just shut up and you know,

[24:30] >> it's all right there for you."

[24:32] >> I couldn't ever get there, you know, and

[24:35] um

[24:36] >> until, you know, a friend of mine, I was

[24:40] 16 years old and uh I'd gotten contact

[24:44] lenses and it started working out and my

[24:47] mom was a model. So, I I I said to her,

[24:51] "Could you introduce me to somebody at

[24:54] the local talent agency?" And she said,

[24:55] "Oh, okay." And so she did. And I got

[24:57] hired for this job. It was for Versace

[25:00] at the Ross Park Mall where it was me

[25:02] and the department store on a motorcycle

[25:05] with like a model hanging over me and

[25:07] they paid me, you know what I mean? It

[25:08] was like, "This is great. Like, how do I

[25:11] do this?" And uh and then [snorts] that

[25:13] led to one night when I was 16, uh a

[25:16] friend of mine, my my agent, you know,

[25:18] uh called and said um said, "Hey,

[25:21] somebody canled on us last minute.

[25:24] could you fill in? I don't I don't know

[25:26] who else to call. I said, "Sure, sure."

[25:29] She said, "Well, you know, um how'd you

[25:30] like to make 30 bucks an hour?" I Yeah,

[25:32] great. She Well, just uh come down to

[25:35] the office. If anybody asks, say you're

[25:38] 21.

[25:39] Okay, great. So, I had my mom drop me

[25:41] off. I didn't have my license yet, you

[25:42] know, and I I walk into this room and

[25:44] there's all these adults and I walk into

[25:46] the room and they all turn like unison

[25:50] and they say, "You're the guy." And I

[25:52] went, "Yep." And they went, "How old are

[25:54] you?"

[25:56] "21."

[25:58] "Great. Put this on." And they hand me

[26:00] this pirate suit. And it's like the

[26:02] ruffles, the jacket, the wig, the eye

[26:05] patch, the hat, the booties that go over

[26:07] your shoes to make them look like pirate

[26:09] boots and a plastic sword, a a little

[26:13] pistol, and I'm going to be Captain

[26:15] Morgan at a bunch of bars. So, and

[26:17] they're like, "These are your wenches."

[26:18] And there were like these two hot

[26:20] college girls in like skimpy pirate girl

[26:22] outfits. Load us into a minivan,

[26:25] drive us to a bar.

[26:28] I get out, pull my cape, you know, got

[26:30] caught in the door, whatever. Get out

[26:32] and they go, "Ho ho ho, you put on your

[26:33] backpack." They put this big tank

[26:36] backpack on me, fill it with room, has a

[26:39] tap on it. They're like, "Go get

[26:40] everybody drunk and give them t-shirts."

[26:43] So, we go into the bar, the two pirate

[26:48] girls pull me into the corner, and

[26:49] they're like, "Let's let's drink this.

[26:51] Let's go. Come on." So, we're all, you

[26:53] [snorts] know,

[26:55] >> I mean,

[26:58] like by the third bar, I get that

[27:00] cheruby warm feeling in my cheeks.

[27:03] And we get out of the minivan at the

[27:05] third bar and they remember they had the

[27:06] the cowboy doors, those saloon doors.

[27:10] 16 years old.

[27:12] I walk up, something overtakes me, boot

[27:16] the doors in, the whole bar looks at me

[27:18] and I go,

[27:21] the whole bar goes. It was on. I had

[27:24] people laying on the bar. I'm squirting

[27:25] on their mouths. All these people lined

[27:27] up [sighs and gasps] singing Marilyn

[27:30] Manson covers with the band. There were

[27:32] like girls flashing for t-shirts and I'm

[27:35] taking pictures on serum's camera they

[27:37] gave me. I mean, it was like mayhem.

[27:40] I sell the knife. I sell the gun. People

[27:44] offer me money. I'm selling I'm putting

[27:47] the cash in my, you know, my sock. I

[27:50] sold the eye patch, you know. I mean,

[27:51] and they're like, "Where's your stuff?"

[27:52] And I'm like, "Somebody stole it." You

[27:54] know, I got this sock full of cash.

[27:57] The promotion ends. They drop me off at

[27:59] my mom's lawn. 2:30 in the morning. I

[28:02] trundle in hammered. Next morning, I

[28:04] wake up and that agent calls and says,

[28:06] "How'd it go?" And I went, "Went it went

[28:08] great. I thought we I thought we did

[28:09] some some great work. I thought we

[28:11] reached a lot of people. [laughter]

[28:14] She's [clears throat] like, "Well,

[28:15] there's a huge problem." Like, [ __ ]

[28:17] we're all going to jail.

[28:20] He goes, "I don't know what you did, but

[28:22] serums doesn't want to do this promotion

[28:23] unless you're Captain Morgan. So, we got

[28:25] to figure out a way to get you a fake

[28:26] ID."

[28:27] >> So, this is this is the inception point

[28:30] for not only uh you know, your

[28:33] alcoholism, but also your acting career.

[28:36] You're like, you not only did you sell

[28:37] all that stuff like and you you you sold

[28:40] the brand and you sold Captain Morgan,

[28:44] like you inhabited Captain Morgan. You

[28:46] became him and it was wellreceived.

[28:48] >> Yeah. And then, you know, but also on

[28:50] the way home from the promotion, they

[28:52] were like, "Hey, where do you live?

[28:53] We'll drop you off." Cuz I was telling

[28:54] the girls like, "Yeah, I go to I go to

[28:55] Pit. I go to the University of

[28:57] Pittsburgh. I'm in high school, you

[28:58] know, like a sophomore." And then

[29:00] they're like, "All right, we well we'll

[29:01] drop you off first. We're going to head

[29:02] past Oakland." I go, "No, no, drop me

[29:03] off last. trouble because I don't want

[29:05] them to see me getting dropped off at my

[29:07] mom's house in suburbia. So, it was like

[29:09] this whole complex web of stories and

[29:13] then Captain Morgan. And then I wound up

[29:15] getting uh there was a guy at the agency

[29:17] who was 10 years older than me who

[29:19] looked like me and he he gave me his ID

[29:21] and I was Captain Morgan from 16 through

[29:24] 21 in Pittsburgh. And then I got a job

[29:26] working for Finlandia Vodka, but instead

[29:28] of the pirate suit, I'm wearing a tuxedo

[29:30] and the girls were wearing evening

[29:31] gowns. And we traveled the world on

[29:33] YouTube's old tour bus full of vodka

[29:35] drunk smoking Marbor Reds. I get a lung

[29:38] infection from the Marbor Reds and

[29:40] drinking all day. So I have to leave the

[29:41] tour early, get rid of the lung

[29:44] infection, get a job working for Camel,

[29:47] passing out cigarettes at all the bars,

[29:49] which made all of Pittsburgh a giant

[29:50] open bar. Like I just figured out how to

[29:53] monetize my favorite things to do.

[29:56] >> Yeah. The pitch the Pittsburgh pitch man

[29:57] for everything addictive and and not

[30:00] good for you. And you're what? You must

[30:02] have been like a manchild, though. Were

[30:03] you like huge when you were 16? How are

[30:06] you passing for 20 years?

[30:07] >> I mean, I'm heavier now, but I was 6'5

[30:09] when I was 16 years old. So, I was

[30:11] always taller than the other kids, but I

[30:13] topped off at 16. So,

[30:14] >> yeah. I mean, I looked I looked the

[30:16] part. I could pass. Nobody questioned

[30:18] me. And um

[30:20] >> And you're a three sport athlete. Yeah.

[30:22] At the time.

[30:22] >> Yes.

[30:23] >> Football, basketball, volleyball,

[30:26] >> you're doing it all. That's like that's

[30:27] like an ego thing, too. like, "Oh, I can

[30:29] go do all this other stuff and be this

[30:31] athlete."

[30:31] >> Well, I had the secret honor student,

[30:34] not for nothing.

[30:35] >> Yeah. Well, and then I made my own

[30:36] movies,

[30:37] >> right?

[30:38] >> So, that that started happening. But um

[30:41] but um Yeah. No, I I uh I I was living a

[30:45] secret life away from high school, you

[30:47] know, which made high school really

[30:48] boring because on the weekends

[30:52] I'm Captain Morgan

[30:53] >> Mhm.

[30:53] >> with college girls and now I have to

[30:55] come back and go to my, you know, stupid

[30:58] classes.

[31:00] But I started making my own movies and

[31:02] that became interesting and AP physics

[31:05] became less interesting. And um and then

[31:07] I just started figuring out like okay

[31:09] like through the movies through the you

[31:12] know assorted promotional jobs and and

[31:15] things like I just was like I I can do

[31:17] this. I I I know that I could be an

[31:19] actor. I know my friends who I'm

[31:20] shooting movies with that they keep

[31:22] pushing me that way. And so I finally

[31:24] started taking theater classes my senior

[31:26] year and right away the the theater

[31:28] teacher was like, "Will you please try

[31:29] out for the musical?" Like, "Do I have

[31:32] to sing and dance?" She's like, "Yes,

[31:33] you do, but you're going to be fine." I

[31:36] was like, "Okay." And so I did. And then

[31:39] um tried out for Carnegie Melon right

[31:40] out of out of high school with all the

[31:43] other theater kids who had been doing it

[31:45] their whole lives. And I didn't get in,

[31:47] but I didn't know what I was doing. And

[31:50] so

[31:51] um I spent a year I didn't apply

[31:54] anywhere else and I late applied to the

[31:56] University of Pittsburgh. Went there

[31:58] spent a year just busting my ass and

[32:01] then a year a year later to the date

[32:04] walked across the street on a snowy

[32:07] morning and tried out again and that

[32:09] time I was one of 16 actors that got in.

[32:11] So, um, the the the part that broke my

[32:14] heart was

[32:16] all of that fight, all of that threading

[32:19] the needle at a 100red yards that it

[32:22] took for me to jump those tracks, give

[32:26] up everything that sports and academics

[32:28] were going to provide for me, that

[32:29] straight and narrow path. I made it.

[32:32] Somehow, I jumped and and grabbed the

[32:34] other side. And then alcoholism just

[32:37] neutralized all that. And you know, um,

[32:41] three heading into three years of

[32:43] sobriety, I'm working on the back of a

[32:44] construction truck. I have no agent, no

[32:46] manager, no one will return my phone

[32:48] calls. I have nothing. And I'm shoveling

[32:50] sand and gravel from 7 to 4 every day

[32:52] with a bunch of guys that don't speak

[32:53] English and hauling cement bags and and

[32:56] um in the LA sun wondering like, am I

[32:59] going back to school or or what am I

[33:00] doing? Like, it took away all my dreams.

[33:02] And I never thought I was going to get

[33:04] that back at that point. And I thought,

[33:05] I'm just going to be Joe and I'm going

[33:07] to be sober and I'm going to figure this

[33:08] out. Um, and I thought maybe maybe this

[33:11] was punishment for my ego being involved

[33:12] with being an actor, whatever all that

[33:14] was. But there were enough people who

[33:17] were fans of my work and knew what I was

[33:20] capable of that kept calling. And then I

[33:24] started getting traction and jobs

[33:26] started happening. And then I got off

[33:28] the construction truck and never went

[33:30] back. So, by the time we hit True Blood,

[33:34] I'm in a position where I've now gotten

[33:38] the break. Like, True Blood was a break.

[33:41] True. True true blood was a pocket

[33:42] accees hand job. It was the hottest show

[33:45] in the world.

[33:48] It was a star making type of show that

[33:50] the industry watched. Like all the

[33:52] directors, everybody watched True Blood

[33:54] when it when you know those first few

[33:55] seasons. And I was going to be the hot

[33:58] big new character on the show. and I

[34:00] knew it. And so, um, that really took

[34:04] away all the pain of sobriety. All the

[34:06] things that I thought I was going to lo

[34:08] that I thought would never come back to

[34:10] me came back. It's like all of a sudd

[34:12] I'm getting calls to be in movies. I'm

[34:13] getting calls, you know, Superman,

[34:16] Hercules. I'm getting, you know, all the

[34:18] big parts. [snorts] I can't do them all

[34:20] because I'm shooting True Blood, but I

[34:23] have gainful employment. It It's still

[34:25] great artistically, and I can start

[34:27] figuring out what I want to do once I

[34:28] get off. And as I'm in that process of

[34:32] wrapping up True Blood, um

[34:35] I

[34:38] become engaged, start dating, become

[34:40] engaged to and and get married to I

[34:43] think one year there was like I was the

[34:45] hottest guy on TV, she was the hottest

[34:46] girl on TV. So it was like, "Oh, this

[34:49] makes total sense." And um

[34:52] >> you know, everything was on the up and

[34:55] up. There was going to be a Magic Mike

[34:56] sequel.

[34:58] They were centering more of the plot

[35:00] around me. I was getting calls for

[35:02] action movies. Like all of these things,

[35:05] like huge showrunners were calling me

[35:07] telling me they were going to develop

[35:08] shows for me, like awardw worthy

[35:11] material. And all of this is happening.

[35:14] And then all of a sudden,

[35:17] I start not feeling right. My skin,

[35:19] there's something going on. I have like

[35:21] multiple rashes. I just chalk it up to

[35:24] maybe not doing my laundry quick enough

[35:26] or or or you know, taking my workout

[35:29] gear off when I get out of the I don't

[35:30] know what's going on. And then all of a

[35:32] sudden the blood starts

[35:34] and once the blood starts,

[35:38] something's wrong. But I'm also like two

[35:41] months away from getting married.

[35:44] So,

[35:46] are we calling this off? No. No. No. No.

[35:49] No. No. No. We're not calling No, no,

[35:50] no. Keep moving. Keep moving. keep

[35:51] moving forward. And um

[35:55] by the time we got back from the the

[35:57] honeymoon, I I didn't feel great. And by

[36:00] the time we got back

[36:03] um I had to go in and have a procedure

[36:05] done and I was misdiagnosed and it was

[36:07] it was the wrong procedure. And then

[36:09] after that, I didn't heal from it and I

[36:12] laid on my side for about a month and a

[36:13] half. And during that time,

[36:17] Harvey Weinstein pitched me a TV series

[36:20] at my wedding to star in this show. And

[36:23] he said he was going to run Miami

[36:24] campaign for me and you're the next

[36:26] thing and this and that, you know, and

[36:28] when

[36:29] before his incarceration at Riker's

[36:31] Island for sexual assault and rape,

[36:33] having Harvey Weinstein in your corner,

[36:35] that's it. You're m you're made man.

[36:38] And uh I go off to shoot that show

[36:42] and um

[36:45] my body starts being overtaken by

[36:48] bulbous weeping

[36:50] hives like something's wrong. Like the

[36:55] makeup team had to start like spray

[36:57] painting over these open weeping s like

[37:00] all over me.

[37:02] I'm waking up in pools of sweat.

[37:07] I'm bleeding all night long in the

[37:09] bathroom. I'm getting up like every 20

[37:10] minutes bleeding in in massive amounts

[37:13] of pain. And uh and finally one day on

[37:17] set, I I couldn't do it anymore. And I I

[37:19] I I laid down in the fetal position in

[37:21] the dirt and I I I locked up and I

[37:24] couldn't move. And um

[37:27] I couldn't come like I got back to my

[37:29] trailer and I kept saying, you know,

[37:30] shoot the other scene, shoot the other

[37:32] scene. And they started shooting. They

[37:33] said, we're done with the other scene.

[37:34] Hours later. And I couldn't move. And

[37:36] they finally they called a an ambulance

[37:38] and uh and then that kicked off uh you

[37:42] know an 8week 8week hospital stay in

[37:45] which um all of it just exploded.

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[40:44] That's so intense, man. And not knowing

[40:47] what it is. No. Like the fear of like

[40:50] not even being able to put your hands

[40:52] around like what exactly is happening so

[40:54] that you can get it treated properly

[40:57] >> and masking it like there's so much to

[40:59] lose like I got to get through this

[41:00] shoot or like nobody can know, you know,

[41:02] if they find out I'm going to lose this

[41:04] job or the show is going to fall apart.

[41:06] Yeah. And my tendency is just you just,

[41:09] you know, you just fight through it. I

[41:11] mean, I've worked with the flu before.

[41:14] You know, I've worked with 104 degree

[41:16] temperature. Like, you just you power

[41:18] through it. Um, and uh, yeah, those

[41:22] first two weeks in the hospital in North

[41:23] Carolina,

[41:26] I mean, there was a parade of like

[41:28] doctors and interns and like they were

[41:30] bringing into the room because I was I

[41:34] was like John Merrick. I'm like the

[41:36] elephant man to them. Like we can't

[41:38] figure out nothing's showing up in any

[41:40] of the scans. Look at them, you know,

[41:42] and like pull your pants down, show up.

[41:44] Like I mean it was like that where

[41:46] you're just like you feel like you're

[41:48] some kind of lab experiment with this

[41:50] parade of people. And finally it was

[41:52] like get out of my room like leave me

[41:54] alone, you know? And and it was at that

[41:56] point that I um we had to airlift back.

[42:00] I had to, you know, airlift back to to

[42:03] Cedars in LA because I knew I'm not

[42:06] getting out here anytime soon. And

[42:08] paparazzi were swarming. It had broken

[42:11] that that I had shut down the

[42:12] production. Uh they had to recast the

[42:16] role. Uh they were trying to figure out

[42:18] where I was. There were people sitting

[42:20] vigil outside of our house in LA waiting

[42:22] to try to get pictures of me. And then,

[42:26] you know, like had to say something to

[42:29] get these people off of me. And so, um,

[42:32] we said that my appendix ruptured or I

[42:34] had to have my appendix out, which

[42:37] technically wound up not being

[42:38] completely untrue,

[42:39] >> right?

[42:40] >> They took everything else out.

[42:42] >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's down there. It's

[42:44] infected. It's got to go.

[42:46] >> Yeah. Just say, "Hey, my appendix

[42:47] exploded." Until we could figure out

[42:48] what was going on.

[42:49] >> Just get them off your back.

[42:51] It's the tour cancelled due to

[42:54] dehydration or exhaustion.

[42:56] >> Exhaustion. Yeah. I had to go in Yeah.

[42:58] some facility for reh like you know kind

[43:02] of coded language.

[43:04] >> Yes.

[43:04] >> Um and so uh came back to LA and then

[43:09] that's when

[43:11] the tests really ramped up because um

[43:15] they couldn't figure out what was going

[43:16] on. And by at this point also too

[43:20] um you know I'm 13 and a half years

[43:22] sober and I'm completely dependent upon

[43:24] liquid delotted which for anybody out

[43:27] there who hasn't done liquid delotted um

[43:30] if you ever want to put on VR goggles

[43:32] and pretend that you're in a Simpsons

[43:34] episode this is for you. This is the

[43:36] drug for you.

[43:37] Um

[43:38] >> yeah, I mean, you know, hence ensues

[43:42] this relationship with this disease and

[43:45] all the pharmaceuticals that are being

[43:47] thrown at you that, you know, you've got

[43:49] to figure out how to take or not take

[43:52] and the threat that that poses to your

[43:55] sobriety and the fear that you have

[43:57] about it activating.

[43:59] >> Yes.

[43:59] >> Your inner addict and and you know, all

[44:01] of the kind of internal conflict and

[44:03] turmoil that goes on with that. like

[44:04] what does this mean for my sobriety? I'm

[44:06] going to wake the beast up and I'm not

[44:08] going to get it back and it's going to I

[44:09] know that destroyed my life

[44:11] >> and it was so difficult to get it in the

[44:13] cage

[44:14] >> and now this thing's going to come out

[44:15] again

[44:17] >> and and immediately your brain starts

[44:18] wrestling with not wrestling but you

[44:21] start having those thoughts of like you

[44:23] know kind of developing a tolerance to

[44:26] this and you start trying to negotiate

[44:28] with the nurses you're like you know

[44:30] >> what's your what's your pain level Joe

[44:32] today [laughter]

[44:34] >> I'm sure you I'm sure you. This was

[44:36] prescribed for an 80-year-old 80 pound

[44:39] woman. I'm sure it was, but I

[44:42] >> am

[44:43] >> giant. I need more. Can you give me You

[44:46] know, you start doing that talk and

[44:48] that's the thing.

[44:49] >> It's the thing trying to get out, trying

[44:51] to get more. Trying to get It's

[44:52] delotted. Like they gave me morphine at

[44:54] one point. I couldn't even feel it. It

[44:55] was like nothing. It's like you give me

[44:57] an aspirin. Didn't matter.

[44:59] >> Yeah. Delotted is the good [ __ ]

[45:01] >> Crazy. And um

[45:03] >> I had to in my spine surgery I was on

[45:06] that for a minute.

[45:08] >> It's also completely brutal staring at

[45:10] the clock

[45:12] because the clock becomes that thing

[45:15] where you know

[45:16] >> how long until

[45:16] >> they won't give it to you for four

[45:18] hours.

[45:18] >> Yeah.

[45:19] >> So right around

[45:21] hour three you're like okay just keep

[45:24] doing this. Okay. And then it's like

[45:25] right at the four hour mark or you or

[45:28] then you go no it usually takes him 15

[45:30] minutes to get in here. So, all right,

[45:32] I'm going to hit it at 3:45.

[45:35] And then and then, you know, soon enough

[45:38] it's like an hour in and you're like

[45:41] staring at the clock for the next 3

[45:42] hours. And uh that went on for another

[45:46] six weeks uh in the hospital in LA as

[45:50] they ran me through every gamut of test.

[45:52] And you know, there's there's a moment

[45:55] where

[45:58] like I know it's over. like I can't do

[46:01] it another night. Like I know it. Like

[46:03] my my stomach I would feel it swell up

[46:07] and I know it was filling with blood.

[46:09] Like I would just feel my abdomen swell

[46:11] and I would get my stand and try to get

[46:14] into the bathroom in time

[46:17] and sometimes successfully sometimes

[46:20] not. And it was usually in the middle of

[46:21] the night and it would just just an

[46:24] explo I mean imagine middle of the night

[46:26] >> just explosion of blood in your stool.

[46:28] just just blood. Nothing nothing but

[46:31] blood. It's just

[46:32] >> blood. And um

[46:35] >> and you're in there trying to be quiet

[46:37] because

[46:40] your wife that you just got married to,

[46:42] you're supposed to be on a, you know, in

[46:43] the honeymoon phase with is out there

[46:45] trying to get some sleep on a cot. And

[46:48] so you're in there, you know, silently

[46:51] like you want to scream at the top of

[46:53] your lungs, but you have to get down and

[46:56] start scrubbing this blood up so that

[46:57] she doesn't walk in there and see a

[46:58] murder scene and lose her mind. And so

[47:01] there's a part of you that you're the

[47:03] one this is happening to, but you have

[47:05] to leave,

[47:07] well, a large part of yourself

[47:10] to try to manage somebody else's

[47:13] potential trauma while it's happening to

[47:15] you. there's a part of me that still has

[47:17] to care for everybody else who has to I

[47:21] have to go through it, but they have to

[47:22] watch me go through it and they're

[47:23] powerless. And so, you know, there was a

[47:27] night where I was in there that happened

[47:29] and I was in there [snorts] cleaning the

[47:31] blood up out of the tile grout, you

[47:33] know, and um I stood up,

[47:37] had to hold on to the sink to stand up.

[47:40] So, I was starting to drop weight at

[47:41] this point and my skin looked like it

[47:44] was paper, like it was see-through. It

[47:45] was like the veins like it was like a

[47:47] gray blue. My lips were blue and uh it

[47:52] was like I was see-through and um

[47:56] and you know I I I just I looked in the

[47:59] mirror and I looked like you I I I was

[48:03] so amazed. I look like a zombie and I

[48:05] thought you're not going to make it one

[48:07] more day. Like look at all this blood.

[48:08] Like you don't have more. Like I knew I

[48:10] was going to die. Like this is it. It's

[48:12] over. I don't know what's going on. They

[48:13] can't figure it out. I don't remember

[48:15] the the next series of events, but you

[48:19] know, I went back out to bed and and

[48:20] tried to lay down and the next thing I

[48:23] remember is uh waking up

[48:27] and

[48:30] Sophia was at the foot of the bed and

[48:32] she had to tell me that

[48:36] they brought me into an emergency

[48:38] surgery that morning. Like my my my, you

[48:41] know, my vitals were just crazy. And so

[48:43] they they went in and they they had to

[48:45] split me open. And uh they found that my

[48:49] large intestine was pus. The whole it

[48:52] was a bag of pus. It was ready to

[48:54] explode. And that's what I was feeling.

[48:55] And that's what swelling up. It was like

[48:56] the first stages of of of you know, I

[48:58] mean it was it was like I would have

[49:00] gone septic and then that's it.

[49:03] >> And um they had to call her while I was

[49:06] out

[49:07] and present her with the choices of what

[49:09] she thought I would want.

[49:12] And as my you know next of kin

[49:16] she had to decide and um

[49:18] >> and the choice was between what and what

[49:22] >> leave it in there. Um,

[49:25] I don't know what the second choice was,

[49:28] but the third choice was

[49:30] um to remove the large intestine

[49:33] entirely

[49:35] and leave me with potentially a

[49:37] permanent osttomy bag, which um I then

[49:42] lived with after that. And and so uh you

[49:45] know, I wake up in that bed and she had

[49:48] to inform me that they had to split you

[49:50] open. Your large intestine's gone. And

[49:53] uh you have an osmy bag and I mean I was

[49:55] so drugged out. I'm waking up and I had

[49:57] to you know I remember putting my hand

[49:58] down and feeling this plastic ring in

[50:02] this bag and it was like whatever you

[50:06] thought your life was, it's over. Like

[50:09] it's over, man. Like,

[50:13] thank God they found out what was wrong,

[50:16] but God knows what this all means now

[50:20] because they also didn't figure out what

[50:22] was wrong because there was still

[50:24] ulceration all the way down.

[50:27] My skin had another autoimmune

[50:29] condition, like a really serious one

[50:31] that was causing all those open weeping

[50:32] sores. Um, my lungs and my eyes were

[50:35] starting to to go through it. And then

[50:37] my thyroid had had stopped working

[50:40] properly. So it was like

[50:43] >> Yeah. They didn't they didn't discover

[50:45] what was wrong. They basically dealt

[50:46] with the acute downstream impact of this

[50:50] mysterious thing that was happening to

[50:51] you.

[50:52] >> They they bought me time. They just they

[50:53] they bought time. Like when the Germans

[50:57] are moving into Russia and Russia is

[50:59] dismantling

[51:01] the the factories that make weapons and

[51:04] ammunition because the Germans are

[51:06] taking them over and they're putting

[51:07] them on trains and they just keep moving

[51:09] them east as the German front keeps

[51:11] moving and now they're assembling

[51:14] these weapons in snowstorms because they

[51:17] don't have roofs over their heads and

[51:18] then the Germans keep moving and they

[51:19] keep moving it to just try to buy time.

[51:22] That's what happened. It was the the the

[51:24] removing of the of the the intestine

[51:27] didn't stop the Germans. It didn't stop

[51:30] the war. It didn't stop the moving

[51:31] forward. It just kept it's like we I had

[51:34] to give it up in order to buy time to to

[51:36] to to hopefully maybe figure this out.

[51:39] >> I didn't know that you could live

[51:41] without a large intestine.

[51:43] >> Me neither.

[51:45] >> Yeah. And just for for context like the

[51:48] extreme nature of this uh situation in

[51:51] addition to the extreme nature of the

[51:53] acute condition uh you being this you

[51:56] know handsome leading man marries this

[51:58] beautiful woman you're beginning your

[52:00] marriage

[52:01] >> and we're trying to have a family also

[52:03] >> you're yeah like you're trying

[52:04] >> I mean we're we're working on having

[52:06] kids before we were even engaged like

[52:08] that was why we got married it was like

[52:10] we're going to have kids we're going to

[52:11] have a family that was the whole talk

[52:13] from the beginning

[52:14] >> and now it's like I I don't know if I'm

[52:16] going to be alive the next week.

[52:17] >> And the ultimate expression of like male

[52:19] verility and strength and health and

[52:22] vitality, right? Like the sort of public

[52:24] perception of you, you know, like best

[52:27] physique in Hollywood, like all of that

[52:29] at the same time, like the juxaposition

[52:31] of the reality that you were facing. Um,

[52:36] >> versus like, you know, how kind of the

[52:38] public knew of you.

[52:40] >> Yeah. I mean, regardless of, you know,

[52:44] whatever marginalization I felt about

[52:47] being looked upon by, you know,

[52:49] >> he's the dumb hunky guy or whatever it

[52:51] is. Um,

[52:53] >> yeah. Annoying, but like I'll take that

[52:55] over what I'm dealing with right now.

[52:57] >> Yeah. Well, I mean, in that moment, you

[52:59] you it all comes rushing in that, you

[53:02] know, Arnold Schwarzenegger used to say,

[53:04] you know, your abs are fantastic.

[53:06] They're better than mine. Never were.

[53:07] And you have incredible abs. And look at

[53:09] this guy. And you pull my shirt up. Look

[53:10] at this. You know, it's over. Like, it's

[53:13] done. There's a there's a 50 cents sized

[53:15] piece hole in your abdomen and your

[53:18] small intestine is pointing out of it

[53:19] now. And you have a giant scar up the

[53:22] front with Frankenstein staples. Like,

[53:25] that's over, man. And there is a fear

[53:30] about that when you know that's that's

[53:32] how you made a living. So your brain is

[53:37] now trying to go into trying to process

[53:39] the new information and find this new

[53:41] center of gravity or or you know

[53:45] but it's like you just want a future

[53:47] trip.

[53:49] So um I mean I don't want to say I don't

[53:54] want to say thank God for delotted but I

[53:55] mean there was there was a bit of it

[53:56] where it was just like I was so drugged

[53:58] out of my mind that I couldn't even

[53:59] really fully grasp

[54:01] >> what was happening to me.

[54:03] Um,

[54:04] >> and that bought you time to adapt

[54:06] emotionally.

[54:08] >> Well, but I didn't really adapt

[54:09] emotionally until

[54:12] until the reconnection attempt, which

[54:14] is, you know, we're kind of skipping a

[54:16] chunk of the story where, you know, the

[54:18] first chapter of the book, the first

[54:20] chapter of the book starts out with me

[54:21] in Monaco. I wind up after all of these

[54:24] surgeries and all these catheters and

[54:26] and um you know a tube snaked up my nose

[54:30] down to pump [ __ ] into a bucket next to

[54:33] the bed because my body would stop

[54:35] produce processing food and I I I I lost

[54:38] the ability to walk. I went crosseyed. I

[54:41] I I because my my muscles and my eyes

[54:43] couldn't hold my eyes in place. I was

[54:46] that weak. I had bed sores. I was

[54:48] sticking. I I was having seizures. I

[54:50] mean, it was just mayhem, chaos. And um

[54:54] but I get out of the hospital, I get two

[54:56] good days together after eight eight

[54:58] weeks, and they let me out. And um I

[55:02] start trying to gain the weight back. I

[55:04] start trying to learn how to like tell

[55:06] my brain to stand up and sit down

[55:09] because it won't. There's something

[55:10] blocking the mind connection and I have

[55:14] to start really working hard on walking

[55:16] and sitting up and standing down. And um

[55:20] I get a call

[55:22] that Ben Affleck wants to meet me. Star

[55:25] is the villain in Batman.

[55:27] >> Yeah.

[55:28] >> And I'm like, why is this happening now?

[55:30] Why couldn't this have been

[55:33] >> the call you've been waiting for

[55:34] >> your whole life? It's like James Bond,

[55:36] Batman, Batman villain, and they're

[55:38] never going to let an American be Bond.

[55:40] So it's like you're the Batman or a

[55:41] Batman villain or something.

[55:43] >> To me, Batman villain is almost more

[55:45] interesting. And it's like this is this

[55:48] is the role of my life and

[55:52] I'm on liquid. I'm undelotted. Well, at

[55:54] the time I'm at home now. I'm on pill

[55:55] delotted. I'm on delotted. I can hardly

[55:58] stand up and sit down. I'm trying to

[56:00] gain weight back. And here's the biggest

[56:02] job of your life. Can you work one day

[56:04] next month and then six months next

[56:07] year? [panting and gasps]

[56:09] [sighs]

[56:11] Okay. Because what do I do? I I say yes.

[56:14] Show up. So

[56:18] I put on long sleeves. I spend six days

[56:22] detoxing from the delotted pills, which

[56:24] was six days of sleeplessness, suicidal

[56:27] ideiation, crying out of nowhere,

[56:29] sweating uncontrollably.

[56:31] But I knew the deal. I knew I knew what

[56:33] that was going to be like

[56:36] so that I could drive a car

[56:39] under my own power and go meet Ben.

[56:44] And um week later, email from my agents

[56:49] late at night, like London time. You got

[56:52] the part. They want you for this villain

[56:53] role and you need to get to Heathrow to

[56:55] London next week.

[57:00] So I fly by myself

[57:03] to Heathrow to to London and uh on the

[57:06] week on the way my I had a bag leak

[57:09] on the plane in the dark.

[57:13] which I describe in the book and um and

[57:18] then I land and I have to go into a

[57:20] costume fitting that I know about.

[57:21] >> What's your pain level at this time?

[57:24] >> It's not I'm not in pain so much at this

[57:27] point because they've diverted my entire

[57:30] system.

[57:31] Um

[57:34] like you know

[57:38] I I have a bag on my on the front of my

[57:40] abdomen. So,

[57:43] it's like they're diverting through that

[57:45] that that part of the system that was

[57:48] severely ulcerated. Um,

[57:52] I'm very uncomfortable.

[57:54] I have multiple skin issues going on at

[57:57] once.

[57:58] Um,

[57:59] >> you must have lost a ton of weight at

[58:01] this point.

[58:02] >> Well, I gained 40 pounds of it back in

[58:04] the first month I was home.

[58:05] >> How do you do that without a large

[58:06] intestine?

[58:08] >> Cuz I'm a maniac.

[58:09] >> Yeah. No, I mean I know how to be

[58:11] uncomfortable from being an addict.

[58:14] >> Um, and

[58:15] >> and you know how to try to get one over

[58:17] on other people.

[58:18] >> I know how to,

[58:19] >> which is kind of what you got to do with

[58:20] Ben. And Ben doesn't strike me as

[58:22] somebody who suffers fools lightly. Like

[58:24] he's a he's a very smart guy. Like, so

[58:27] >> when you're sitting across from him,

[58:30] >> well,

[58:30] >> how are you convincing him that you're

[58:32] up to the job?

[58:34] >> Well, uh, I'm also very disciplined, you

[58:37] know. Um, my father was a very

[58:39] disciplined guy and I got all of that

[58:43] and um, and so I knew how to get home.

[58:47] You're not going to ask why me.

[58:52] You're going to hire a chef and you're

[58:53] going to tell this guy to feed you every

[58:55] 60 to 90 minutes 30 to 40 grams of

[58:58] protein the way you know how. Your body

[58:59] can process that much. You're not going

[59:01] to miss one input. You're going to put

[59:04] your head down. You're gonna eat boxes

[59:07] full of

[59:09] gluten-free donuts because I didn't know

[59:11] gluten was going to hurt me. So, I'm

[59:12] just crushing [snorts] these boxes,

[59:14] shakes, everything that I could get in,

[59:17] which meant that the bag is outputting

[59:19] like 24 hours a day,

[59:21] >> which is a lot of work and a pain

[59:22] because you got to keep getting up and

[59:24] getting up and getting up and getting up

[59:25] as because your body's just processing.

[59:27] would have and then I would practice um

[59:30] when I had to take my pain pills, I

[59:32] would take my pain pills and and work

[59:34] out

[59:36] so that I could try to shock

[59:39] >> my muscles into putting weight on

[59:43] to to just grow some kind of weight

[59:45] back.

[59:45] >> Just sheer force of self-will to like

[59:48] make this happen.

[59:49] >> After a month, I gained back 40 of the

[59:51] 60 lbs. And then I had another So when I

[59:53] went to go meet Ben, I wore a long

[59:56] sleeve shirt to hide

[59:58] that I lost weight and uh to hide the

[1:00:01] other 20 pounds, which okay, we're we're

[1:00:04] kind of ballpark. And um and then in the

[1:00:08] next month or so, I month and a half, I

[1:00:11] put on the other 20 to get back up to

[1:00:14] somewhat normal. But I would keep

[1:00:17] battling that for for years. It would

[1:00:19] just I mean I would I would I I was I

[1:00:22] was getting strong just for the next

[1:00:25] attack

[1:00:27] >> that would just drill me to the ground

[1:00:29] and then would have to get back up and

[1:00:30] get strong again enough to go back down

[1:00:32] again. And um but you know I I I land in

[1:00:37] Heathrow and and I go to my hotel

[1:00:40] outside of London near the studio and uh

[1:00:44] and I know I have a costume fitting

[1:00:47] tomorrow. So I have to stop eating

[1:00:49] or else the bag is going to output

[1:00:51] because I know they're going to put the

[1:00:52] super suit on me which is skin tight and

[1:00:54] multiple layers and if I eat anything

[1:00:57] >> going in the suit

[1:00:58] >> it's going to pop.

[1:01:00] can't. So, I stopped eating 18 hours

[1:01:04] before.

[1:01:07] [laughter]

[1:01:09] >> It's planned out like a bag.

[1:01:11] >> It's going to go well. Yeah. All right.

[1:01:12] >> You know, it's like a I've been planning

[1:01:13] I'm planning a heist.

[1:01:14] >> Uhhuh.

[1:01:15] >> Okay. You're going to stop eating. Okay,

[1:01:16] great. All right. So, we get in there

[1:01:17] and uh you know, they hand me the first

[1:01:19] spandex layer and I kind of they all

[1:01:21] they're all standing there as I'm

[1:01:22] holding this layer and I just want

[1:01:27] like, "Hey, you all going to stand there

[1:01:28] or kind of I'm playing Demir, you know,

[1:01:31] naked werewolf is, you know, Big Dick

[1:01:33] Richie from Magic Mike. I'm I'm I'm shy

[1:01:37] about getting undressed, you know, like

[1:01:39] but what are you going to do?" You know

[1:01:40] what I mean? I was like kind of basing

[1:01:42] this on

[1:01:43] >> what I thought people pushing people

[1:01:45] into a position that you know they left

[1:01:46] me alone.

[1:01:47] >> Oh, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. So, they

[1:01:48] all left. [sighs and gasps]

[1:01:51] [snorts]

[1:01:51] >> Put the base layer on. Okay, everybody

[1:01:54] come on in. Okay, good. Now that first

[1:01:56] layer's on. Bag's kind of hidden

[1:01:58] underneath there. Now, we'll put the

[1:02:00] armor on. Now, we'll get the layer next

[1:02:02] layer on. We'll start putting the pieces

[1:02:04] on. Great. Get the costume fitting done.

[1:02:06] Okay, good. Okay, great. Now, you need

[1:02:08] to go over cuz we're going to do a full

[1:02:10] body 3D scan to make the mannequin so we

[1:02:13] can work on your armor while you're

[1:02:14] gone. So, you need to go and you're

[1:02:16] going to get shot in the round by 256

[1:02:18] cameras.

[1:02:20] What? Yeah. And uh it's in your

[1:02:23] underwear. We noticed you're wearing

[1:02:24] black underwear and uh the cameras don't

[1:02:26] like black. So, why don't you put these

[1:02:28] on? And they hand me these tiny little

[1:02:29] like banana hammock, blue, baby blue

[1:02:33] briefs that like look like they wouldn't

[1:02:35] have fit a child, let alone me.

[1:02:38] >> And they're not going to cover the bag.

[1:02:39] I mean, it's the whole It was like, but

[1:02:42] this is your penalty for wearing the

[1:02:44] wrong underwear. Now you have to wear

[1:02:45] our weird, you know,

[1:02:48] >> and I start panicking. But I had had I'd

[1:02:51] gone to the CrossFit games like

[1:02:54] somewhere during that summer. I'd, you

[1:02:57] know, made somebody else drive and went

[1:03:00] to the CrossFit games

[1:03:03] with the bag on painkillers

[1:03:06] to to be a spectator

[1:03:10] and I had a leak while I was there, but

[1:03:13] I had brought an extra pair of shorts.

[1:03:16] So, I was in the habit of bringing extra

[1:03:18] shorts with me and I had an extra pair

[1:03:21] in my bag and I was like, "These are

[1:03:24] gray. Can I wear these? these are mine.

[1:03:26] And they said, "Yeah, gray is fine."

[1:03:30] [gasps and sighs]

[1:03:31] So, put the gray ones on. I go, I have

[1:03:34] to get up on this platform in the middle

[1:03:35] of 256 cameras. There's a guy up in the

[1:03:37] booth and he's like,

[1:03:40] "Uh, your underwear line is a little

[1:03:42] high. Can you pull it down?

[1:03:49] You're just not going to get out of

[1:03:51] this."

[1:03:52] So, I do the old pull him up super high

[1:03:55] and then put him right back to the same

[1:03:57] spot

[1:03:59] and he's, you know, there's a grown man

[1:04:02] who's not going to argue with me about

[1:04:03] how high I like to hold my underwear

[1:04:05] line. So, he's like, "Okay, fine." Like,

[1:04:08] lets it go.

[1:04:11] Okay. Take all the pictures. Great.

[1:04:15] Okay, great. There's a car outside. It's

[1:04:17] going to take you to your physical

[1:04:22] >> [gasps]

[1:04:22] >> Yeah, just the volume like that the

[1:04:25] burner is just getting turned up on you,

[1:04:28] you know,

[1:04:28] >> physical,

[1:04:29] >> the heat,

[1:04:29] >> right? The physical. We haven't had the

[1:04:31] physical yet to get bonded, of course.

[1:04:33] >> I mean, what made you think that

[1:04:35] ultimately if even you got away with all

[1:04:37] these things that this wasn't going to

[1:04:38] come out and explode in your face at

[1:04:40] some point anyway, but it's just like

[1:04:41] what are you going to do? You got to go

[1:04:42] for it, right? In my mind, I thought if

[1:04:46] I work one day next month, all I have to

[1:04:48] do is get to the one day and then I'll

[1:04:50] figure out what's going to happen next.

[1:04:52] I'm going to get reconnected.

[1:04:54] This thing's going to leave me. I'm

[1:04:56] going to be okay.

[1:04:58] This wouldn't have come my way. if it

[1:05:01] wasn't meant to be or it wasn't a sign

[1:05:03] that fate was knocking and saying this

[1:05:06] is the next step. I mean, mind you, my

[1:05:10] wife is like livid that I said yes and

[1:05:13] took this thing, you know, but I needed

[1:05:16] it not because I need to be a movie

[1:05:22] star. So, you know what I mean? Or all

[1:05:24] of that career stuff. I need it. I need

[1:05:27] something to force me into fighting with

[1:05:33] everything that I have. You know, I have

[1:05:34] a friend of mine who um Ryan Shayer, he

[1:05:36] played for the Steelers and u you know,

[1:05:38] he got he got paralyzed in a in a

[1:05:40] football game against the Bengals and um

[1:05:43] we used to talk after every game and he

[1:05:45] was a friend of mine, you know, and I

[1:05:46] watched this happen to him and

[1:05:49] coming out of that he would say things

[1:05:51] like, "I'm gonna play again." And the

[1:05:53] doctors are like, "You're not going to

[1:05:54] walk again." He's like, "No, I'm going

[1:05:56] to play. You watch. I'm going to play."

[1:05:59] There's a period of time when after he

[1:06:01] has you know after after a serious you

[1:06:04] know you probably know you know serious

[1:06:06] spinal injury where you know for him

[1:06:09] where it was the severity of it

[1:06:13] that there was a crucial period of

[1:06:15] development for him right from the time

[1:06:18] of the impact or past pro past surgery

[1:06:20] to where if he was ever going to walk

[1:06:22] again

[1:06:24] then he was going to have to work during

[1:06:27] this period. So setting a goal beyond

[1:06:31] what you think or what everybody else is

[1:06:34] telling you you're capable of is

[1:06:36] necessary

[1:06:38] for people like me, people like him that

[1:06:40] are going through some sort of traumatic

[1:06:42] occurrence like that. You have to put

[1:06:44] the finish line way further beyond what

[1:06:47] you think you're capable of, what

[1:06:49] everybody else around you is telling you

[1:06:50] you're capable of. And he had to say to

[1:06:53] himself, I'm gonna I'm not only going to

[1:06:55] walk again, I'm going to play football

[1:06:56] again. which we were all like, don't

[1:06:59] like just

[1:07:01] walk. You know, the point is I went to

[1:07:04] his wedding and and watched him walk

[1:07:05] down the aisle and dance all night. Wow.

[1:07:07] >> And he can play with his kids.

[1:07:09] >> He didn't never play again,

[1:07:11] >> of course.

[1:07:11] >> Yeah.

[1:07:12] >> But that outrageous you It's part It's

[1:07:15] part denial, but it's self-preservation.

[1:07:17] Like hanging your hat on like some

[1:07:20] audacious goal to anchor you and get you

[1:07:22] out of bed every morning and give you

[1:07:24] direction and purpose and something to

[1:07:25] work towards. My job isn't questioning

[1:07:27] this or why it's come my way. My job is

[1:07:30] just to grab onto it and go. Grab the

[1:07:32] train and go. This train is coming. It's

[1:07:34] not going to come again. Go. Because

[1:07:36] it's going to take you. It might not

[1:07:39] take you where you hope it's going to

[1:07:40] take you.

[1:07:43] But that's not your job to think about

[1:07:45] that. Your job is just to put every

[1:07:47] ounce that you have into your

[1:07:50] rehabilitation process. gaining that

[1:07:52] weight back, getting strong enough,

[1:07:54] lowering your inflammation enough so

[1:07:56] that when they attempt to reconnect,

[1:07:59] it's the best situation possible because

[1:08:01] those things all don't always work. But

[1:08:03] I'm not thinking about all that. I'm

[1:08:04] just thinking about what I need to do to

[1:08:07] get as healthy as possible to shoot this

[1:08:09] giant six-month action movie in a year

[1:08:11] from now. And I needed that. Everybody

[1:08:14] knows what happened.

[1:08:16] >> Mhm. Batman got cancelled

[1:08:20] and I never I mean I got to play the

[1:08:22] character again for like two minutes in

[1:08:24] the re-shoots.

[1:08:25] >> Yeah.

[1:08:26] >> And for the next six years there were

[1:08:28] just project after project and call for

[1:08:31] my agent after call for my agent about

[1:08:33] oh yeah they're going to use your

[1:08:34] character in this. You're going to be in

[1:08:35] this. You're going to be the villain in

[1:08:37] Aquaman 2. You're going to be Suicide

[1:08:39] Squad 2 with this director. No this

[1:08:41] director. No you Versus Will Smith. Oh

[1:08:43] it's going to be a standalone. Oh, it's

[1:08:45] going to be

[1:08:47] it was there again. Am I lucky or

[1:08:50] unlucky?

[1:08:53] I'm lucky that I got that part, but at

[1:08:56] the time I felt like I was unlucky

[1:08:57] because I got this thing that then got

[1:09:00] cancelled and went away. So, I'm like,

[1:09:02] how unlucky am I? I feel like I'm

[1:09:03] cursed. I get this thing. It gives me

[1:09:06] hope and now it's gone. And then all

[1:09:08] these other projects are now gone. But

[1:09:10] looking back, I was lucky that that

[1:09:14] thing came my way. That thing like if it

[1:09:16] wasn't for that that role,

[1:09:19] [sighs and snorts]

[1:09:20] I don't I don't know that the

[1:09:21] reconnection works. I don't know that

[1:09:23] I'm healthy enough. I don't know that I

[1:09:25] gain that weight back. I don't know that

[1:09:26] I can walk. I I don't know that I can

[1:09:29] function the way that I do now. I don't

[1:09:31] know that mentally I'm in as good of a

[1:09:33] place as I am now. that role. I have the

[1:09:37] helmet in my office and it's

[1:09:41] it's the greatest accomplishment of my

[1:09:43] life. This bank heist that I'm

[1:09:44] describing and and and and what I had to

[1:09:47] do to try to shoot that one day in

[1:09:49] Monaco, which I did. And mind you, the

[1:09:53] morning of the shoot in Monaco, I mean,

[1:09:55] I'm covered in hives, covered like I was

[1:09:58] when I was shooting that Harvey

[1:09:59] Weinstein show and everything but my

[1:10:04] face.

[1:10:06] and it's the only thing you need to see

[1:10:08] in the shot. And I go and I and I do my

[1:10:11] don't eat for 18 hours because you're

[1:10:12] going to put the suit back on. And I go

[1:10:14] and I shoot in like 90°ree weather with

[1:10:17] this, you know, four layers on. And and

[1:10:20] as soon as I get back to my hotel,

[1:10:24] my whole face is covered. And I started

[1:10:26] having to wear like a widebrim hat after

[1:10:28] that for months because of it's like my

[1:10:31] my body was holding off this allergic

[1:10:34] reaction to this drug, this this, you

[1:10:38] know, biologic drug just long enough. It

[1:10:40] held it off long enough for me to shoot

[1:10:42] the scene and then took over.

[1:10:46] This episode is brought to you by

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[1:13:17] In terms of perspective, you know, were

[1:13:19] you lucky? Were you unlucky? You know,

[1:13:22] was it a good thing that the movie was

[1:13:25] cancelled? Was it not?

[1:13:28] But in truth, like, yeah, you wouldn't

[1:13:29] have been able to do it. It would have

[1:13:31] been a disaster because something would

[1:13:32] have happened. You would have had an

[1:13:34] outbreak and you know you would have

[1:13:36] destroyed trust with everybody in the

[1:13:39] industry. They would have had to recast

[1:13:40] you in the middle. Like there were all

[1:13:41] these other people involved in this. So

[1:13:43] on some level it's a very selfish, you

[1:13:45] know, like you're going to put yourself

[1:13:46] in this situation

[1:13:48] >> where you're creating risk for and and

[1:13:50] you know there could there's a lot of

[1:13:52] dollars on the line and jobs and all

[1:13:53] that kind of stuff. So you were spared.

[1:13:56] >> Yes.

[1:13:56] >> That situation.

[1:13:57] >> You were given this new lease on life.

[1:13:59] this sense of agency, purpose,

[1:14:01] direction, and then you had that year to

[1:14:04] like build upon that and and and try to

[1:14:06] figure out what was wrong with you and

[1:14:08] set yourself up for this reconnection.

[1:14:10] >> Yes. And and the point I was kind of

[1:14:12] getting to uh which I'm glad you you

[1:14:14] know, you kind of roped it back in was

[1:14:16] um you know, I I really started dealing

[1:14:18] with the emotional fallout after the

[1:14:20] reconnection because up until the

[1:14:23] reconnection, I had Batman.

[1:14:25] >> Mhm. I had I had something to look

[1:14:27] forward to, something to fight for, and

[1:14:31] I had enough

[1:14:33] enough going for him in my life or

[1:14:35] enough hope that I could live in this

[1:14:38] veil of denial. I had enough denial. And

[1:14:42] once I got reconnected,

[1:14:44] it was like all of a sudden it hit me

[1:14:47] what happened to me. Like all of a

[1:14:48] sudden all of the the trash in the back

[1:14:51] of the station wagon I you know that

[1:14:53] I've been throwing I' just been just

[1:14:56] doggedly fighting now it's like you hit

[1:14:58] the brakes and it's wham slams into the

[1:15:00] windshield. It was all of a sudden I

[1:15:01] started having like real emotional

[1:15:04] issues because I started realizing this

[1:15:07] is happening. This is happening to you.

[1:15:09] This happened to you. This didn't happen

[1:15:11] to somebody else. And then when Batman

[1:15:13] got cancelled it's over. Like it's over.

[1:15:16] It's done. And now you just have you.

[1:15:18] And you don't even have that to look

[1:15:20] forward to. And you have to start taking

[1:15:22] down the scaffolding for that building

[1:15:24] you were building where you were going

[1:15:25] to go off and be the Batman villain. And

[1:15:28] even though you're going through all of

[1:15:29] this, you were going to have your thing

[1:15:32] to hang your hat on and your life is

[1:15:34] going to move forward. Now it's like

[1:15:36] it's over and you got nothing except to

[1:15:38] sit here and think about what's next.

[1:15:41] And none of the drugs were working. I

[1:15:43] mean, it was like that was brutal. That

[1:15:46] was a brutal brutal period.

[1:15:47] >> It's a it's a limited series with a lot

[1:15:49] of episodes.

[1:15:50] >> Yeah. First episode, second. Yeah, for

[1:15:52] sure. I mean, it just keeps I mean

[1:15:54] that's and that's the first we're now

[1:15:56] hitting the end of the first chapter of

[1:15:57] the book.

[1:15:58] >> Yeah.

[1:15:59] >> That's that's all of that is

[1:16:00] encapsulated for sure.

[1:16:01] >> But this is the catalyst and the setup

[1:16:03] for like this exploration like the this

[1:16:06] is where the odyssey really begins.

[1:16:08] >> Yeah. in terms of like you're on this

[1:16:10] search to figure out what's wrong with

[1:16:12] you, how to fix it, and it takes you to

[1:16:14] some pretty crazy places,

[1:16:16] >> you know? It's um it's like a [ __ ] like

[1:16:18] a coming out party.

[1:16:20] >> Yeah.

[1:16:21] >> Putting the book out cuz

[1:16:24] I lived for for 10 years afraid to talk

[1:16:28] about all that stuff that went on, you

[1:16:31] know. Um, you know, I I uh you know,

[1:16:34] once I I tried to make Deathstroke

[1:16:36] happen, I'm I'm in a very shaky moral

[1:16:38] high ground, or I wouldn't even call it

[1:16:40] high ground. I'm in I'm in shaky moral

[1:16:42] territory because I'm I'm trying to show

[1:16:44] up for work again.

[1:16:46] >> Mhm.

[1:16:47] >> I don't know if I'm tricking myself into

[1:16:48] thinking that I could do all of those

[1:16:50] things that I tried to do. Certainly,

[1:16:52] everybody else in my life thought I had

[1:16:55] no business attempting to try to make

[1:16:59] Batman work.

[1:17:02] But I don't there's no way I was going

[1:17:04] to say no. There's no way.

[1:17:06] >> Yeah. It's it's an interesting conundrum

[1:17:08] because in sobriety it's all about

[1:17:12] bursting the veil of denial. It's all

[1:17:14] about like how do you transcend denial

[1:17:17] and in your situation and in moments of

[1:17:20] crisis like we have this denial

[1:17:22] mechanism for a reason. There's a

[1:17:24] survival aspect to it. Oh yeah. And so

[1:17:26] in your case, like denial served a very

[1:17:29] important purpose in keeping you

[1:17:31] directional, keeping you alive, giving

[1:17:33] you a reason to get out of bed. So it's

[1:17:35] not as binary or as simple. And you

[1:17:38] know, in the context of of

[1:17:41] you being a sober person, we get sober,

[1:17:45] we work the steps, we go to meetings,

[1:17:47] we're of service to, you know, the

[1:17:49] newcomer, all of it, right?

[1:17:52] And it's all about

[1:17:54] transcending fear. It's about uh having

[1:17:59] a healthy relationship with your past so

[1:18:01] you're not haunted by it. You're not

[1:18:03] like, you know, a victim of of of guilt

[1:18:06] and shame and all of these things that

[1:18:08] take us back to drinking and using. Uh

[1:18:11] it's about unveiling like like taking

[1:18:13] the mask off, right? And here you are in

[1:18:15] a situation where in order to survive,

[1:18:19] you're adopting you're you're stepping

[1:18:21] back into a double life. You have to put

[1:18:23] this mask on and you you have to be

[1:18:25] duplicitus in some regard, which is

[1:18:27] anothetical to

[1:18:29] >> the principles of sobriety, you know,

[1:18:31] and you're trying to stay sober. Like,

[1:18:32] are you bringing this to your guy? Like,

[1:18:34] are you sharing about this in meetings?

[1:18:37] Are you keeping locked up about this? Is

[1:18:39] this even something you don't even feel

[1:18:40] comfortable comfortable talking about

[1:18:43] with your with your people?

[1:18:46] >> Yeah. No.

[1:18:46] >> And like what's going on with your

[1:18:48] marriage? Like, you know, this is

[1:18:49] threatening

[1:18:50] >> your sobriety and just your whole way of

[1:18:53] life.

[1:18:53] >> Yes.

[1:18:54] >> But you're you're needing to do it

[1:18:56] because this is the only way that you

[1:18:57] can see a way forward for yourself. And

[1:18:59] so that has to, you know, like that

[1:19:01] burden like on some level, even if

[1:19:03] somewhat unconscious, has to be like

[1:19:05] weighing on you at the same time. All of

[1:19:07] this is going on. No, it's like Yeah,

[1:19:09] you nailed it. Like all of it. Like I

[1:19:12] mean you're supposed to be rigorously

[1:19:14] honest.

[1:19:15] >> But

[1:19:16] >> there's a limit.

[1:19:17] >> Well,

[1:19:18] >> yeah.

[1:19:19] >> It's you're being tested, you know, in

[1:19:21] such a profound way. But but in in a way

[1:19:26] when I

[1:19:28] got sober and was about three or so

[1:19:31] years sober, I remember going to fill

[1:19:33] out an apartment application

[1:19:36] and there was a question, have you ever

[1:19:37] been evicted?

[1:19:40] And I knew that if I wrote yes,

[1:19:44] I'm never going to get it. And and

[1:19:45] furthermore, I'm never going to get

[1:19:46] anything. and I'm just going to be in a

[1:19:48] situation where I have to be like the

[1:19:51] third roommate, you know, in some

[1:19:53] apartment where there's a bong on the

[1:19:55] coffee table. I know because I had been

[1:19:57] looking endlessly for months, you know,

[1:19:58] and try to find the right place. And I

[1:20:00] remember talking to a buddy of mine in

[1:20:01] AA. I was like, dude, [sighs]

[1:20:05] am I mining? Yes.

[1:20:07] >> Can I get a pass on this one?

[1:20:08] >> And he said, you're not that person

[1:20:10] anymore.

[1:20:12] And I wrote no.

[1:20:14] >> And I got it. and that landlord made a

[1:20:17] smart decision letting me rent that

[1:20:18] apartment

[1:20:19] >> because I was the perfect tenant

[1:20:21] >> and I have always been the perfect

[1:20:23] tenant since then.

[1:20:24] >> So there's a point where

[1:20:29] is there a different way to look at it

[1:20:31] and and and

[1:20:33] [clears throat]

[1:20:34] there's also

[1:20:37] you know I've also spent eight months in

[1:20:39] a hospital or eight sorry eight weeks in

[1:20:42] a hospital. I spent eight weeks in two

[1:20:44] months, eight weeks in a hospital.

[1:20:47] Like I was dead. Like I mean as close to

[1:20:51] death as you can get. And now I'm back

[1:20:54] on this side of the line.

[1:20:57] And

[1:20:59] you know, I remember my mother saying to

[1:21:00] me, you know, when I was in the hospital

[1:21:02] with with the tube snaked down my throat

[1:21:06] to pump the [ __ ] into the bucket and I

[1:21:08] couldn't walk. And she said, you know,

[1:21:11] pray to God to get you out of this. God

[1:21:13] God will help you out of this. And I

[1:21:15] said, you know, with this tube that, you

[1:21:17] know, the same God that gave this to me.

[1:21:21] And I stopped praying.

[1:21:24] I didn't I didn't want to hear answers.

[1:21:26] I I wasn't meditating. I wasn't doing

[1:21:28] any of it. I wasn't journaling. I wasn't

[1:21:30] writing. I didn't want it. Like it was

[1:21:32] like Old Testament God.

[1:21:33] >> Yeah. I was going to say this is

[1:21:34] biblical.

[1:21:35] >> Oh yeah.

[1:21:36] >> Yeah. I mean, I'm getting hit by a

[1:21:38] plague, you know, like. And so, I'm not

[1:21:42] saying that that's an excuse for what I

[1:21:44] was. I just was in my own mind.

[1:21:50] >> Why would this come my way if I couldn't

[1:21:51] do it?

[1:21:53] >> Yeah. And an adage in the rooms is like,

[1:21:56] God doesn't give you anything you can't

[1:21:57] handle.

[1:21:58] >> One day, I need to shoot one day next

[1:21:59] month.

[1:22:02] Let's go. Let's go.

[1:22:05] um like like

[1:22:08] having the faith that

[1:22:11] it'll all it's all going to work out

[1:22:13] >> and it's one day at a time like I just

[1:22:16] have to do this one thing today.

[1:22:18] >> Yes.

[1:22:19] >> Whatever happens tomorrow I'll deal with

[1:22:20] that tomorrow and I'll be prepared

[1:22:24] comes in my direction.

[1:22:25] >> Once

[1:22:27] you know once once once I had the

[1:22:30] reconnection surgery and then Batman got

[1:22:32] cancelled. It was like, "No, no, no, no,

[1:22:34] no, no. Oh, no.

[1:22:37] This isn't going anywhere." Like, it was

[1:22:40] when that hit me that I went through all

[1:22:43] that for nothing. But it wasn't for

[1:22:44] nothing. It just

[1:22:47] >> I couldn't see I couldn't see it at the

[1:22:49] time.

[1:22:51] I was too close to it. I was still in

[1:22:53] the middle of it all. I just It It was

[1:22:56] that process. It's that was really when

[1:22:58] the proc well when the process really

[1:23:00] kicked up to to another notch of of um

[1:23:06] what was it going to take to get me to

[1:23:08] surrender everything everything I'd

[1:23:10] worked for my entire life up to that

[1:23:13] point and uh so I just you know anything

[1:23:17] I touched started turning to dust in my

[1:23:19] hands that that's when it got hard

[1:23:21] because that's when I had been trying to

[1:23:24] ignore God or ignore for the greater

[1:23:28] reasoning of why this was happening. And

[1:23:30] um and that started the process of like

[1:23:33] it started pulling my fingers off. Let

[1:23:36] go. Let go. The job isn't going to

[1:23:39] you're not going to get this job and

[1:23:40] spring back. There's something else

[1:23:41] going. There's something deeper. There's

[1:23:43] you you aren't there yet. You haven't

[1:23:45] seen it for what it is yet.

[1:23:47] >> I was just trying to hang on to my old

[1:23:49] life.

[1:23:51] this this sort of in the biblical

[1:23:53] analogy like wailing at God like haven't

[1:23:56] I surrendered enough like sobriety is

[1:23:58] about surrender and it's this process of

[1:24:00] realizing like there's layers to

[1:24:02] surrender like you think you have

[1:24:04] >> but you're still holding on to this

[1:24:06] >> identity or you know and and it's that

[1:24:09] Buddhist idea of like you know whatever

[1:24:11] you have an attachment to is going to

[1:24:13] create suffering and you know if you

[1:24:15] want to make God laugh like tell him

[1:24:16] your plans and like you despite all of

[1:24:19] the surrender that had preceded that

[1:24:21] with, you know, your sobriety journey

[1:24:23] and all these, you know, like reckoning

[1:24:25] with this disease, realizing like you're

[1:24:28] still holding on to something and you're

[1:24:29] being asked to let go of [ __ ]

[1:24:31] everything.

[1:24:31] >> I'm still holding on to a lot.

[1:24:32] >> And that's where it brings us back to

[1:24:34] like Odysius, you know, like this is

[1:24:36] like,

[1:24:37] >> you know, archetypal storytelling [ __ ]

[1:24:40] >> Well, and that's the thing. It's like,

[1:24:41] okay, so Batman gets canceled. Uh

[1:24:43] there's there's there's a there's a

[1:24:45] >> and it's literally about wearing masks.

[1:24:47] >> Totally. Well, that's the other thing,

[1:24:48] too. Yeah. I mean I I am wearing a mask

[1:24:51] but

[1:24:51] >> and protective armor.

[1:24:53] >> Yes. And but I I am I'm living a

[1:24:57] compound lie. I'm I'm not sharing about

[1:25:01] it fully. I mean, you know, there's an

[1:25:05] AA meeting at my house on Saturdays

[1:25:07] where I invite my sponses because I I

[1:25:09] couldn't leave the house.

[1:25:10] >> And so

[1:25:11] >> other people started coming and kind of

[1:25:13] trusted people and and I started trying

[1:25:15] to share as honestly as as I can in

[1:25:17] those meetings. But I still I'm so

[1:25:18] confused about what's going on. Um

[1:25:22] I'm not talking about it in the press.

[1:25:25] >> Are you seeing a therapist or anybody

[1:25:27] that you're opening up to? Are you being

[1:25:29] honest with your wife?

[1:25:31] >> Well, she knew, but but her stance was

[1:25:35] to play a character like

[1:25:38] she didn't tell all these people in her

[1:25:40] family.

[1:25:42] So, if we go on family vacation,

[1:25:46] which I was trying to do, I was trying

[1:25:48] to keep up like appearances. Yeah. But

[1:25:51] I'm getting skinnier and people are

[1:25:52] starting to make comment on that like in

[1:25:54] nasty ways. And um

[1:25:58] >> the job's falling through my fingers.

[1:25:59] The entertainment industry starts

[1:26:01] referring to me as her husband, not by

[1:26:02] my name. So, like things again like

[1:26:05] chipping away at the ego, letting go of

[1:26:08] the identity of like you're not you're

[1:26:10] not your own person anymore. you're just

[1:26:12] this sick patient. I mean, in my mind,

[1:26:14] sick patient, but we're going on

[1:26:15] vacation. I go out in the sun for 30

[1:26:17] minutes

[1:26:18] >> and because of the drugs I'm on, my skin

[1:26:20] fries off and then I can't go out for

[1:26:22] the rest of the vacation. You know, it

[1:26:23] was like

[1:26:23] >> you're just being fully dismantled.

[1:26:25] >> Well, and then and then family members

[1:26:27] are like, you know, trying to give me

[1:26:29] tips on tanning, you know what I mean?

[1:26:31] Like [laughter]

[1:26:33] I'm I'm a 40-year-old man. Like, I know.

[1:26:36] And I'm Sicilian. Sicilian.

[1:26:37] >> I know how to tan. We invented tanning,

[1:26:40] man. You know what I mean? Like what are

[1:26:41] you talking about?

[1:26:42] >> We invented tanning. [laughter]

[1:26:43] >> Yeah.

[1:26:44] >> You know, and so it's like but they

[1:26:46] don't know the full story

[1:26:48] >> and and and like because when I was in

[1:26:50] the hospital, everything was on

[1:26:51] lockdown. Everybody was instructed do

[1:26:53] not say a thing. Do not say a word.

[1:26:56] People weren't coming to visit me. It

[1:26:58] was like only a handful of people came

[1:26:59] to visit me. You know, Arnold wanted to

[1:27:01] come visit me in the hospital once and I

[1:27:02] said no because I was like if he comes

[1:27:05] in, they're going to know I'm here and

[1:27:05] they're going to know where I am.

[1:27:06] >> And you had done this movie with him and

[1:27:08] he had become a friend and kind of a

[1:27:10] mentor to you. Yeah. Yeah. He was he was

[1:27:12] a good friend. And um and so, you know,

[1:27:15] I'm in the situation where family,

[1:27:18] friends don't know.

[1:27:21] The press doesn't know. I don't know who

[1:27:24] to trust. I'm worried about shutting

[1:27:26] down another production. I'm trying to

[1:27:28] get clear of this thing or get enough.

[1:27:31] I'm trying to get well

[1:27:32] >> so that I can say this bump.

[1:27:34] >> All that dissonance is contributing to,

[1:27:37] you know, making the problem the disease

[1:27:40] worse. Right.

[1:27:41] It's brutal because now I'm repressing

[1:27:44] how I feel. I'm not truly talking and

[1:27:46] and at the time so you ask you know am I

[1:27:48] am I talking to my guy

[1:27:51] talking to my guy but my [clears throat]

[1:27:55] my guy doesn't have the capacity to

[1:27:57] understand and have a conversation with

[1:28:00] me where I think sobriety for me was

[1:28:03] like a bachelor's degree and I think

[1:28:06] going to Allenon and like quantum

[1:28:07] physics relationship seminars afterwards

[1:28:10] were kind of master's degree like you're

[1:28:12] sober now how do you get emotionally

[1:28:13] sober how do you how can be in a

[1:28:15] relationship with somebody else. And I

[1:28:17] didn't get a great model of like what a

[1:28:20] healthy

[1:28:21] relationship looks like, which put me

[1:28:23] into a difficult position where

[1:28:27] I always did well [laughter] in that

[1:28:29] department.

[1:28:31] I knew how to get her, but I didn't know

[1:28:35] how to be in a a healthy relationship.

[1:28:38] My parents never got along from the time

[1:28:41] I was little. I never saw them hug,

[1:28:42] kiss, say, "I love you.

[1:28:44] But then you think, "Oh, because I'm I

[1:28:46] can go out to a club or a bar and I know

[1:28:48] how to talk or

[1:28:51] you know, I know what I'm doing." And

[1:28:52] it's like, you don't know what you're

[1:28:54] doing.

[1:28:54] >> You bait the hook and land the fish, but

[1:28:57] then how you know then what do you do?

[1:28:59] >> Then what do you do?

[1:29:00] >> Yeah.

[1:29:00] >> Yeah. And and that was a hard thing to

[1:29:03] admit, I think, as a man because so much

[1:29:06] of your self-worth is wrapped up in your

[1:29:08] prowess in that department. So it was

[1:29:10] like but I was so terrified that they

[1:29:14] would find out

[1:29:16] that I wasn't who they thought that I

[1:29:18] was and and so you weren't shoving

[1:29:19] people away

[1:29:22] before they find out or you know what I

[1:29:24] mean? It was that game that shove away

[1:29:26] that neon sign

[1:29:29] saying leave me alone or you know come

[1:29:31] here leave come here go away come here

[1:29:33] go away. Um, so you know

[1:29:39] this illness

[1:29:40] >> is called an avoidant an avoidant uh

[1:29:42] attachment disorder,

[1:29:44] >> right? Yeah. Like well and also you

[1:29:45] >> now we're talking my language.

[1:29:46] >> Well, now you know you can honeymoon for

[1:29:48] the rest of your life, [clears throat]

[1:29:50] >> but you don't want that. You don't need

[1:29:51] that.

[1:29:51] >> You can keep it on a low boil, but you

[1:29:54] can't go all in.

[1:29:55] >> Well, and I would go all in every time.

[1:29:57] I mean, I was just like right to the

[1:29:59] edge of the cliff. What happened

[1:30:01] [snorts] last time? Let's see if we can

[1:30:02] fix it now. And it's like you're in the

[1:30:04] same spot.

[1:30:05] >> But there's a difference between the fix

[1:30:07] it mentality and like true intimacy.

[1:30:10] Like allowing yourself to be vulnerable

[1:30:12] to the core with the with your life

[1:30:14] partner.

[1:30:15] >> Yeah.

[1:30:15] >> Or with your sober brethren.

[1:30:17] >> Well, just learning how to stay no

[1:30:20] matter what until you can't anymore.

[1:30:24] >> And um learning how to detach with love.

[1:30:28] And if you can't detach with love, then

[1:30:29] you detach with a [ __ ] machete. you

[1:30:31] get out of there before you say

[1:30:32] something that's going to rattle around

[1:30:34] in somebody's head forever. You know,

[1:30:35] you just stop. Don't do more damage. Get

[1:30:38] out of the room for everybody's sake

[1:30:40] before a fight starts. Like, if you feel

[1:30:42] that, just don't don't go there. You

[1:30:44] have to learn how to like cohabitate.

[1:30:46] You have to learn how to how to put

[1:30:47] other people's needs ahead of yours. You

[1:30:50] know, I would I've once I got sober, I I

[1:30:53] was never in a relationship with

[1:30:54] somebody where I tried to get them to do

[1:30:56] something that I wanted to do. if it's

[1:30:59] like here's the offer,

[1:31:02] you are free to say no to any of that

[1:31:05] and then you can slide it back across

[1:31:06] the table and you know but it was like

[1:31:10] you know

[1:31:12] I always knew I wanted kids

[1:31:15] and um I wanted a family because I

[1:31:19] wanted to write

[1:31:21] the things that I didn't get growing up

[1:31:23] and I wanted to be a great dad

[1:31:27] and uh

[1:31:29] So, if I was ever with somebody, even

[1:31:31] casually, who I knew wanted a

[1:31:33] relationship and I didn't,

[1:31:36] then I would have that talk with them

[1:31:38] and and go the other way or at least

[1:31:40] give them the option of not having to be

[1:31:42] with me if I, you know, and and that was

[1:31:45] certainly true with my marriage. I mean,

[1:31:47] all the conversations in the beginning

[1:31:49] were about having children, having a

[1:31:51] family, and if she wasn't okay with that

[1:31:53] or or she had she was done, she had an

[1:31:55] older kid. if she was done and didn't,

[1:31:56] you know, been there, done that, then

[1:31:58] that's cool. We can hang out. But like,

[1:32:00] at least I know what it is. And I know

[1:32:02] that this isn't ultimately going to be

[1:32:03] for me because there's somebody else out

[1:32:05] there who wants children

[1:32:07] >> and wants to be the mother to my

[1:32:08] children and and wants to do that and

[1:32:11] and travel with me and and be a unit

[1:32:13] with me and do this thing with me. I

[1:32:15] think I wanted that experience. And um

[1:32:18] she was completely down with it. But I

[1:32:20] put that on the table right out of the

[1:32:22] gate, you know, like if you're not cool

[1:32:24] with this, then then that's okay. You

[1:32:25] know, like there was a level of of of

[1:32:29] um you know, emotional sobriety that I

[1:32:32] got to because of the sponsor that I

[1:32:34] had. That guy was instrumental in me

[1:32:35] learning how to be that guy. But when I

[1:32:38] got sick, he didn't know what to say. It

[1:32:40] was like, "Snap out of it. You ready to

[1:32:42] get out of it? Let's go. All right,

[1:32:44] buddy. It's great day out there." It's

[1:32:46] like I'm going to blow my brains out and

[1:32:48] I need you to stop telling me

[1:32:52] to shake it off. Like I I I need to have

[1:32:54] a conver. And so

[1:32:57] then that also led to me feeling like

[1:33:00] even more alone because now I'm in this

[1:33:03] paradigm shift where the guy who's been

[1:33:05] my guy for a long time isn't the guy for

[1:33:07] me moving forward. And it wasn't until I

[1:33:10] found a a sober

[1:33:13] old-timer who'd been through cancer four

[1:33:15] times.

[1:33:17] >> And we started talking and I just broke

[1:33:21] down and was like, I don't know what to

[1:33:23] do and I don't feel like I should say

[1:33:24] I'm sober. I'm on all these drugs. I'm

[1:33:27] in so much pain. I, you know, what am I

[1:33:30] doing? And he was like, don't let

[1:33:33] anybody tell you you don't belong or

[1:33:36] that you can't show up. You know, you've

[1:33:38] brought drunk people to AA meetings,

[1:33:39] right? I go, "Yeah." I go, "What

[1:33:40] happened after that?" They stayed sober.

[1:33:42] They actually got sober. Anytime I

[1:33:43] brought a drunk or high person to an AA

[1:33:45] meeting, they want to get, you know, get

[1:33:46] into stuff.

[1:33:47] >> He's like, "You tell me, you tell God.

[1:33:49] You don't need to tell anybody else."

[1:33:51] And so that

[1:33:53] >> there is a there is a a sort of ego

[1:33:56] component to being somebody in the rooms

[1:33:58] who has time and the identity that you

[1:34:02] craft around like being kind of someone

[1:34:04] who can like

[1:34:05] >> talk the talk and all of that

[1:34:08] >> and and you know in your case or in an

[1:34:11] analogous case where you know like it's

[1:34:14] very binary. you're using or you're not.

[1:34:15] And like this is how much time you have

[1:34:17] and blah blah blah. And it doesn't

[1:34:18] account for like a situation like that.

[1:34:20] That [clears throat] creates all this

[1:34:22] confusion about your standing and what

[1:34:24] it means to be sober and how that's

[1:34:26] going to be interpreted by your sober

[1:34:28] community that isn't conducive to being

[1:34:31] open. like you start to close down

[1:34:33] because you don't want to lose like your

[1:34:36] status or how you're perceived within

[1:34:38] the community or or or have to reckon

[1:34:41] >> with the idea of not being sober or like

[1:34:44] resetting the clock and all of that.

[1:34:46] Like all of that is like kind of coming

[1:34:48] into play a little bit. I mean, I don't

[1:34:49] want to project on I went through a

[1:34:52] version of that

[1:34:52] >> that is going on. And then also there

[1:34:55] was a point where it got bad enough that

[1:34:58] I had a I had I just had a full-on

[1:35:00] meltdown in a because also we're now by

[1:35:03] this time we're now entering into COVID.

[1:35:05] >> Mhm.

[1:35:05] >> So we're doing Zoom meetings. So there

[1:35:08] was a moment where I had like a full-on

[1:35:09] breakdown like a breakdown. I was losing

[1:35:11] my mind and um I hurricane in your

[1:35:15] consciousness and a hurricane in your

[1:35:16] body.

[1:35:17] >> Yeah. And I uh

[1:35:20] you know I I had this meltdown and it's

[1:35:23] almost like I could feel those people in

[1:35:26] AA who you know came to my meeting

[1:35:29] because they thought I was going to

[1:35:30] produce their screenplay

[1:35:32] recoiling and going, "Oh,

[1:35:36] >> not who I thought he was." And I was

[1:35:39] totally fine with it. It was like

[1:35:40] shaking the tree. It was like everybody

[1:35:42] out. I don't care to be the president of

[1:35:45] AA. Um, I mean even we're sitting here

[1:35:48] right now and I'm breaking the tradition

[1:35:50] of anonymity at the level of press radio

[1:35:53] film. I mean I'm I broke that in my book

[1:35:55] and I was a conscious I had never said

[1:35:57] AA in an interview prior to the book and

[1:36:02] and now here. Mhm.

[1:36:04] >> Um,

[1:36:06] and

[1:36:08] I have to tell the tr it's the story is

[1:36:10] too raw and too vulnerable for me to not

[1:36:13] speak about AA. But the last thing I

[1:36:16] would ever want is to get, you know,

[1:36:17] pulled over drunk on the PCH and then AA

[1:36:20] gets blamed because I said I was a

[1:36:21] member of AA, which is what happens. And

[1:36:23] then the person who needs to get sober

[1:36:25] and go to a meeting doesn't go because

[1:36:27] they're like, see, it doesn't work. AA

[1:36:30] does work. It work. it it works. Like I

[1:36:34] was I was at I was at a point where I

[1:36:38] had no other choice. Like I had no other

[1:36:40] choice. And um and I want to be very

[1:36:42] very clear about that.

[1:36:44] >> And and I thank that friend of mine, the

[1:36:47] friend of mine uh Ken for talking to me

[1:36:50] off a ledge and keeping me going to

[1:36:52] meetings. I mean, there were times when

[1:36:55] I was nodding out in meetings because of

[1:36:56] all the drugs I was on and um and it it

[1:37:00] just kept me anchored to the place that

[1:37:04] I could come back to when I was done

[1:37:06] with the drugs and I'm I've completely

[1:37:09] gotten off everything. So, all the all

[1:37:12] the painkillers, all the sp the spinal

[1:37:14] nerve medication, all of that stuff. I

[1:37:15] just I weaned off of all of it. and um

[1:37:19] you know and in full 100% like you know

[1:37:21] [clears throat] whatever you would

[1:37:22] consider sober. But I understand that

[1:37:24] that's um

[1:37:25] >> it's controversial and I don't want

[1:37:26] somebody else out there who thinks well

[1:37:30] you know I'm going to go to AA and I'll

[1:37:31] just quit drinking and smoke some pot

[1:37:32] and be California sober man. It's like

[1:37:34] that's not what I did at all. At all.

[1:37:37] >> Mhm.

[1:37:38] >> Sober sober.

[1:37:38] >> Yeah. You're you're old school

[1:37:40] >> working steps man.

[1:37:41] >> Hardliner. But it's like it's there when

[1:37:44] you need it and it needs to be there for

[1:37:46] the people that need it. And for me at

[1:37:50] the time, everything in my life is

[1:37:53] falling apart. So I'm looking for that

[1:37:55] place where I can be the leader and be

[1:37:59] okay. And and it's like in that moment

[1:38:03] it was like, you know, you're going to

[1:38:04] save your ass or you going to save your

[1:38:06] face. And I I had a meltdown in the in

[1:38:08] in the meeting, but also realized aa is

[1:38:11] not the place for me to be melting down

[1:38:13] about my health. This is and and having

[1:38:16] the same share every time about the pain

[1:38:18] I'm in and all this stuff and um and I

[1:38:22] need to figure this out and I need to

[1:38:23] start surrendering to that and I need to

[1:38:27] find people that can help me reenter.

[1:38:29] And that's when a guy in AA was talking

[1:38:33] about his therapist who was a very woo

[1:38:36] woo red bookie yungian

[1:38:40] >> you know um type of of of therapist and

[1:38:45] uh and then I started going to support

[1:38:48] groups for people that had raging

[1:38:51] autoimmune issues and uh and those were

[1:38:54] really interesting because as a member

[1:38:56] of AA it's almost like I was coming out

[1:38:59] Especially the meetings that I went to.

[1:39:01] I went to all men stags with guys that

[1:39:02] were like serious about sobriety. They

[1:39:04] didn't cheat on their wives. They were

[1:39:06] great fathers, great businessmen.

[1:39:09] Like you'd think everybody drove a

[1:39:10] Mercedes and AA, you know? Um they were

[1:39:13] just like had their stuff together and

[1:39:15] never moved from that seat in those

[1:39:17] meetings. Super reliable. You needed a

[1:39:18] ride to the airport 4 a.m. They're

[1:39:20] there. You need help moving, no problem.

[1:39:23] Like anything most generous, great

[1:39:25] people I've ever met were those guys in

[1:39:27] aid. Now, the worst people I've ever met

[1:39:29] in my life were some of the people at AA

[1:39:31] who weren't working the program. But the

[1:39:32] point of it is is like I came from and I

[1:39:35] was molded by those men and I could and

[1:39:38] I understood the magic of I understood

[1:39:40] the alchemy of the magic of Alcoholics

[1:39:42] Anonymous and how

[1:39:44] how it could save your life and how it

[1:39:46] could change your life and how it could

[1:39:48] turn a San Francisco shooting gallery

[1:39:50] heroin addict into the nicest, sweetest

[1:39:52] old man you ever meet in your life. I've

[1:39:53] seen it.

[1:39:54] >> And I took that into

[1:39:57] support groups for autoimmune.

[1:40:00] And what was happening there was

[1:40:06] infighting,

[1:40:08] people trying to cancel the leaders of

[1:40:12] the meeting

[1:40:14] for various reasons.

[1:40:17] Uh, everyone was on drugs, so all the

[1:40:21] shares were just about all the drugs

[1:40:22] that people were taking. Um, but I want

[1:40:26] to say

[1:40:28] uh it was incredibly helpful to me in a

[1:40:31] way that

[1:40:34] even with all that going on,

[1:40:37] I I I started letting go and and

[1:40:40] accepting maybe this is as good as it

[1:40:43] gets for you and maybe this is what it's

[1:40:46] going to be, you know, and I could see

[1:40:47] how the trauma was affecting other

[1:40:49] people and wasn't processing like I

[1:40:51] could kind of see the issues and see

[1:40:52] >> seeing the pattern.

[1:40:54] like how trauma is related to

[1:40:57] >> there's a strain of that that's like

[1:40:59] running through all of these people who

[1:41:00] are struggling in a similar way to you.

[1:41:02] And so what I did was what I know how to

[1:41:05] do, which is kind of leave the big group

[1:41:07] meetings, pull a couple of the guys out

[1:41:11] who

[1:41:13] seemed like they were solutionoriented

[1:41:17] and started meeting with one of the guys

[1:41:19] we would meet in my backyard or his

[1:41:21] backyard every week, sometimes twice a

[1:41:24] week, and we just have a one-on-one

[1:41:25] meeting because I know that there's a

[1:41:27] magic that can happen between two people

[1:41:28] when they start talking about their

[1:41:30] similar struggles. And uh and then we

[1:41:33] added a few more guys and then we

[1:41:36] started trying to I started trying to

[1:41:37] like we need to meet even if we don't

[1:41:39] feel like it. We got to stay strong. We

[1:41:42] got to get the reps in. We got to do

[1:41:44] this one at least once a week.

[1:41:45] >> Yeah. You're you're laying an AA

[1:41:46] template over like a different

[1:41:48] situation. But like bringing these guys,

[1:41:51] you know,

[1:41:52] >> this is it. educating these

[1:41:54] >> kind of [laughter] I'm I'm taking what I

[1:41:55] learned in the SEAL teams to you know to

[1:41:58] like a you know to to to my calisthenics

[1:42:02] class or you know my yoga class you know

[1:42:04] and um and that was incredibly helpful

[1:42:06] for me um as I was I started trying to

[1:42:10] accept what was happening to me and then

[1:42:12] that therapist

[1:42:14] was just laying into me about letting

[1:42:17] go.

[1:42:19] >> Yeah. like transcending this avatar of

[1:42:22] being this certain person.

[1:42:23] >> Why do you care about letting it go?

[1:42:25] Yeah.

[1:42:26] >> Why do you care about superheroes? These

[1:42:27] superhero movies are horrible. Why do

[1:42:29] you care? You know, like that was her

[1:42:31] thing. [snorts]

[1:42:33] >> And I needed to hear it. Why do you care

[1:42:35] so much? Why?

[1:42:38] Because I think it's going to fix me. I

[1:42:41] think it's going to be that thing that's

[1:42:42] going to make me feel okay again or

[1:42:44] whole.

[1:42:46] You're smarter than that. What do you

[1:42:48] care what these people think? Why aren't

[1:42:50] you writing? I want to know how you feel

[1:42:52] about all this, how you process it. You

[1:42:54] just rattled off

[1:42:57] five pages of Yungian philos like why

[1:42:59] aren't you writing about this stuff? Why

[1:43:00] aren't you thinking, you know, she was

[1:43:01] forcing me also back into

[1:43:06] God or or some sort of

[1:43:11] thoughts about maybe this is all just

[1:43:13] part of the process. And um and so that

[1:43:17] mythological part of my brain started

[1:43:19] clicking on and

[1:43:20] >> Mhm.

[1:43:20] >> I start calling her the lady of the lake

[1:43:22] cuz I'm like every time I throw that

[1:43:25] [ __ ] sword back into the water, your

[1:43:28] hand comes up and hands it back to me

[1:43:29] and I don't want it. I don't want the

[1:43:31] sword. You have like I don't care. I

[1:43:33] just want people to leave me alone. And

[1:43:35] uh she's like no no no no. She's like

[1:43:39] you're meant for something.

[1:43:41] >> Yeah. the Yungian idea that this

[1:43:44] obstacle that's been put in your path is

[1:43:48] actually an opportunity for growth and

[1:43:51] evolution if you can shift your

[1:43:52] perspective and perceive it as such.

[1:43:55] >> So tough and I had more things that I

[1:43:57] had to let go of. I just had to keep

[1:43:59] letting go. Um and that opened me up to

[1:44:04] all sorts of strange adventures

[1:44:06] >> like enter Santaia. [laughter]

[1:44:09] >> Okay.

[1:44:11] Yeah.

[1:44:11] >> I mean, come on. You got to tell this

[1:44:13] story.

[1:44:14] >> So, you know, when I was recording my

[1:44:15] audio book, uh, one of one during this

[1:44:18] week I was recording, my, um, producer

[1:44:22] got on remotely and said, "Hey, I want

[1:44:26] to say something to you. Um, I was out

[1:44:29] at a dinner party and I mentioned that I

[1:44:31] was recording your audio book." And

[1:44:34] someone at the dinner party said, "Oh,

[1:44:36] he's really big into Santa Cia.

[1:44:40] >> [laughter]

[1:44:41] >> And that's how stories get like you know

[1:44:44] >> my producer like wideeyed was like

[1:44:48] he's really not [laughter]

[1:44:51] >> I know it trust me he's

[1:44:54] >> um with that said like god blessia and

[1:44:59] centuria also holds

[1:45:03] I won't say I'm into it like not a

[1:45:06] practicing

[1:45:08] but

[1:45:10] Centuria holds a very interesting place

[1:45:13] for me specifically that I think a lot

[1:45:16] of people wouldn't connect the dots to

[1:45:18] that at the time I was experiencing

[1:45:20] these things and early in to my illness

[1:45:22] I wind up in Ecuador and I wind up in

[1:45:24] Cuba with a Santaia Babalo because I

[1:45:27] think I'm cursed and I'm married to a

[1:45:30] Latin woman and that's a thing

[1:45:34] not in Roman Catholic elementary school

[1:45:36] in Mount Lebanon Pennsylvania But in

[1:45:39] countries where

[1:45:42] um the transatlantic slave trade was

[1:45:46] very very active, you have

[1:45:50] uh western Africans who brought their

[1:45:53] gods with them on these boats to the new

[1:45:57] world, but then were forced baptized by

[1:46:01] the Spanish masters. Mhm.

[1:46:06] >> And uh and forced to believe in Catholic

[1:46:09] saints and

[1:46:12] these the Africans found a workaround

[1:46:15] which was Canteria worship of the

[1:46:17] saints. Haha. Which was basically for

[1:46:21] every Catholic icon there is an avatar.

[1:46:24] It's an avatar for one of their their

[1:46:27] African gods. M

[1:46:29] >> so when you pray to Santa Barbara,

[1:46:30] you're praying to Chango, the the axe

[1:46:33] wielding, leopard wearing, you know,

[1:46:35] warrior god, you know. Um and um so I

[1:46:40] wind up there and uh

[1:46:43] I am

[1:46:46] uh [sighs and gasps]

[1:46:48] it's a lot of animal sacrifice.

[1:46:51] Uh I'm saying this out of context right

[1:46:54] now. Uh, so I feel like I need to say

[1:46:57] that uh all of the animals were were

[1:46:59] were consumed. They were all eaten. Um,

[1:47:01] so PETA, I know you got mad at me for

[1:47:03] killing a snake with a

[1:47:06] tomahawk in my driveway before a

[1:47:08] children's barbecue in my backyard. I

[1:47:10] know that that was a call that came into

[1:47:11] my managers at one point that they were

[1:47:13] disappointed that I I killed a snake

[1:47:15] with an ax when I had children coming

[1:47:16] over in my yard.

[1:47:19] Okay, fine. I'll give you that. But um,

[1:47:22] this was a whole different situation.

[1:47:24] But um but yeah, there were um ancient

[1:47:28] African rituals that were performed on

[1:47:31] me in case I was cursed. Uh this Babalao

[1:47:37] became mounted by an African spirit on

[1:47:40] multiple occasions around me and uh

[1:47:42] things came out of his mouth that he

[1:47:46] could never have known. So there is

[1:47:49] there's something to it. There was

[1:47:50] something

[1:47:52] to all of this. I had a a flu, a

[1:47:54] horrible flu when I flew to Ecuador

[1:47:56] first to to meet him.

[1:47:59] And after the first ritual, I woke up

[1:48:03] and it was gone. I had a,

[1:48:06] you know, vivid, vivid hallucinatory

[1:48:08] dream

[1:48:10] in which I was walking around in my

[1:48:13] former life and there were all these

[1:48:15] things that were waiting for me in my

[1:48:17] yard, packages that were unopened, that

[1:48:20] were addressed to me that I couldn't

[1:48:21] get, that were being mailed to the wrong

[1:48:23] place. And then I found a box of cigars

[1:48:26] on my table,

[1:48:28] which I was informed, which is how the

[1:48:31] gods are trying to communicate with you.

[1:48:33] and they're trying to get you what's

[1:48:34] waiting for you. And I had an office

[1:48:36] full of like movie memorabilia for all

[1:48:38] these projects I hadn't been in, but it

[1:48:40] was all being suspended by the fact that

[1:48:43] through this illness, this curse.

[1:48:46] And um after two days in Ecuador, I

[1:48:49] wound up in Cuba for a week about six

[1:48:51] months later and I was there for like a

[1:48:54] week-long ritual, a protection ritual,

[1:48:57] and where I became the physical

[1:48:58] embodiment of of my my god Chungo. Um,

[1:49:04] we can go into more detail about I

[1:49:06] certainly do uh in the book. That's one

[1:49:07] of the one of the wild there's a lot

[1:49:10] like in your defense there's a lot of

[1:49:12] context here and like I see this as

[1:49:16] >> you know like a a a desperation and a

[1:49:20] curiosity born out of frustration with

[1:49:23] the western medical system that was just

[1:49:26] incapacitated when it comes to like

[1:49:28] diagnosing and dealing with this

[1:49:30] illness. So you're forced to look

[1:49:31] elsewhere and in that state of

[1:49:33] desperation like I'll do anything like

[1:49:36] Santaia okay like I'll do what what else

[1:49:38] like yian therapy okay like

[1:49:41] >> what are we doing let's go

[1:49:43] >> which then enter Joseph Campbell

[1:49:46] >> because now what happened is and this is

[1:49:49] kind of jumping at

[1:49:50] >> which is kind of superheroy also when

[1:49:52] the young therapist is like why do you

[1:49:54] care about superheroes like that's the

[1:49:55] whole bag with with [laughter] you know

[1:49:58] like it's all about like the the hero's

[1:50:02] journey and the you know how are you how

[1:50:03] are you the protagonist in this

[1:50:05] >> but I think what she was saying was you

[1:50:07] can have more agency over your artistry

[1:50:10] >> as a writer as a storyteller you're not

[1:50:13] so reliant on these people calling you

[1:50:15] to go do

[1:50:16] >> whether they decide or not that you get

[1:50:18] to be this person

[1:50:19] >> you can you know you can do it um and so

[1:50:21] you know jumping ahead a little bit um

[1:50:25] just momentarily but um but you know at

[1:50:27] the time I don't realize it But I'm

[1:50:30] being initiated into a religion

[1:50:34] of my ancestors on my father's side,

[1:50:37] which I don't know it at the time. And

[1:50:40] that to me is is really mind-blowing to

[1:50:43] think about that it wasn't random. It

[1:50:46] wasn't I wasn't in some other culture

[1:50:48] I'm not connected to. You know, I find

[1:50:51] out that that I have a long lineage of

[1:50:54] African slaves taken from Western

[1:50:56] Africa. like I have like it's it's on

[1:50:59] it's there. It's not only there

[1:51:01] genetically, it's there paper trail.

[1:51:02] Like I know who these people are. My

[1:51:05] ancestors on that side and these were

[1:51:06] their gods that they were forced into

[1:51:08] not believing in or at least subverting

[1:51:10] their their belief in. And this starts

[1:51:15] kind of without, you know, without me

[1:51:17] knowing it at the time, it's starting to

[1:51:20] kickstart

[1:51:22] this the real spiritual journey starts

[1:51:24] [clears throat] getting into full gear

[1:51:25] because now I'm I'm being put in front

[1:51:28] of

[1:51:29] >> I'm being introduced to to to forms of

[1:51:32] spirituality that my ancestors who went

[1:51:33] through very very difficult times put

[1:51:35] their beliefs in the things that they

[1:51:37] were praying to. So my mother said, "Why

[1:51:39] don't you pray to God, the one that gave

[1:51:40] it to me?" Well, I'm starting to meet

[1:51:42] the gods that my ancestors were praying

[1:51:44] to when they went through some of the

[1:51:46] most difficult trying moments in human

[1:51:48] history. And I find out that that's in

[1:51:51] my family tree.

[1:51:53] Everything that we've talked about up to

[1:51:56] now is prelude to this which is really

[1:52:00] the heart of the book and the story that

[1:52:02] you want to tell which is your

[1:52:05] connection your relationship with your

[1:52:06] ancestry and the impact of that on your

[1:52:10] present circumstances and and you know

[1:52:13] the impact that that is weathered by all

[1:52:16] of us by our predecessors. I mean, you

[1:52:18] were somebody who was always interested

[1:52:21] in your lineage to one degree or

[1:52:22] another. Didn't you like always want to

[1:52:24] get on that?

[1:52:24] >> I was trying to

[1:52:25] >> Henry Lou Gates show where they like,

[1:52:27] you know, like like this was this was

[1:52:29] sort of percolating in the back of your

[1:52:30] mind all the time like where do I come

[1:52:32] from?

[1:52:32] >> Because of being Armenian.

[1:52:34] >> Yeah. On the Armenian side like Armenian

[1:52:37] and German. I knew that I was descended

[1:52:38] from a German soldier or officer in

[1:52:41] World War I who was stationed in Ottoman

[1:52:44] Turkey.

[1:52:46] My great-grandmother is an Armenian

[1:52:48] genocide survivor who lost nine of her

[1:52:50] children. Eight of them were killed in

[1:52:51] front of her.

[1:52:52] >> It's the most horrific thing.

[1:52:53] >> It's hor Yeah.

[1:52:54] >> Like what she survived, it's horrible.

[1:52:57] Managed.

[1:52:58] >> Yeah. And uh so she suffered and um and

[1:53:02] then wound up at some point in a

[1:53:04] relocation camp for survivors of the

[1:53:06] genocide, pregnant by a German officer

[1:53:09] whose house she was working in. And he

[1:53:12] went back to Germany and we never knew

[1:53:13] who he was. And my grandmother, that

[1:53:15] half German, half Armenian, grew up not

[1:53:18] knowing the identity of her father, and

[1:53:21] she was never allowed to know who that

[1:53:22] was.

[1:53:25] I was always interested. I mean, if you

[1:53:27] go poking around your your German

[1:53:31] unknown German family tree, you better

[1:53:33] get ready for something.

[1:53:35] >> Um, but

[1:53:36] >> and that guy's son was an SS officer, I

[1:53:40] think, right?

[1:53:40] >> Yeah. So my, as it turns out, my

[1:53:43] great-grandfather who served under the

[1:53:44] Kaiser in World War I in the Ottoman

[1:53:47] Empire,

[1:53:49] he has a son who grows up to become an

[1:53:52] SS officer carrying out

[1:53:55] the Jewish Holocaust,

[1:53:58] not knowing that he has a half sister

[1:54:00] who was born in a relocation camp in the

[1:54:03] wake of the Armenian genocide, that

[1:54:05] first big genocide of the 20th century.

[1:54:07] So I talk about it in the book. The idea

[1:54:11] of the swastika

[1:54:13] which is a symbol like a symbol for for

[1:54:15] for uh good luck, prosperity

[1:54:20] was then flipped to the other direction

[1:54:23] and co-opted by the Nazi, German and

[1:54:27] Austrian

[1:54:29] and then stood for hate.

[1:54:30] >> Mhm. But the idea that you have this SS

[1:54:33] officer whose half sister is is is if

[1:54:36] you see old Armenian rugs, they have the

[1:54:38] swastika flipped the other way. So it's

[1:54:41] so wild to think that there is this this

[1:54:43] kind of looking glass between the two of

[1:54:47] them. They don't know each one exists

[1:54:49] and they both stand for the swastika

[1:54:52] pointed each direction.

[1:54:53] >> Right. Mirror images

[1:54:54] >> in and that's all in one side of my

[1:54:56] bloodline. This is on the maternal

[1:54:59] >> side of your family,

[1:55:00] >> which now you're getting into

[1:55:04] life on earth as a human being and being

[1:55:07] born in a certain place at a certain

[1:55:10] time to certain parents or certain means

[1:55:12] during certain world events and it's

[1:55:15] like you come out of the shoot go here

[1:55:18] you go. Um

[1:55:20] >> so there's that side. We open the

[1:55:23] conversation talking about epigenetics

[1:55:25] and the inheritance of just unimaginable

[1:55:30] trauma from your forebears.

[1:55:33] >> Yeah.

[1:55:34] >> And then there's your paternal side. How

[1:55:38] did you come into this awareness that

[1:55:40] you weren't actually a Meganel?

[1:55:44] So in trying to

[1:55:48] trying to get accepted onto finding your

[1:55:50] roots

[1:55:51] once they had the you know the access to

[1:55:54] these various uh genetic pools um and

[1:55:59] databases they they accepted me. It was

[1:56:01] about like 10 years of trying they

[1:56:02] finally got me on.

[1:56:04] >> And what do you think was underneath

[1:56:05] that desire to get on that show?

[1:56:08] >> I don't know. I think it was for my

[1:56:09] mother and her sister. I think they'd

[1:56:12] always wondered who the German was. They

[1:56:15] knew there was a photo of the German and

[1:56:18] it was in my Armenian

[1:56:19] great-grandmother's carpet bag after the

[1:56:22] war

[1:56:24] and my grandmother went into her carpet

[1:56:26] bag at one point and found the photo.

[1:56:29] And my great-grandmother snatched it

[1:56:30] back and wouldn't tell her who

[1:56:32] >> and then my aunt had the photo and then

[1:56:34] somehow it got lost and I was like, "Oh,

[1:56:37] IF THERE'S ONE PHOTO, IT'S LIKE WHAT?

[1:56:39] THERE'S ONE WATCH." IT'S LIKE THE PULP

[1:56:40] Fiction watch. It's like the one picture

[1:56:43] that you know, but it got lost.

[1:56:47] [sighs] I don't know. I guess there's

[1:56:48] there's also

[1:56:51] there's a curiosity that was sparked by

[1:56:53] by the by knowing that I was Armenian

[1:56:55] and not understanding what that fully

[1:56:57] meant until I was an adult. Because when

[1:56:58] you're a kid, nobody's going to tell you

[1:57:00] what it means to be Armenian. Um it's

[1:57:03] not

[1:57:04] >> this is not taught in schools.

[1:57:05] >> No, it's not. Um the United States

[1:57:10] didn't call it officially a genocide

[1:57:12] until 2019. And even then there were

[1:57:13] there were there were attempts to try to

[1:57:15] walk that back and it's not taught in

[1:57:18] school. And you know, MGM was going to

[1:57:20] make a movie called The 40 Days of

[1:57:22] Musadog based on this uh German Jewish

[1:57:25] reporter's account of his you wandering

[1:57:30] through the land that belonged to the

[1:57:33] Armenians after the genocide and the the

[1:57:36] atrocity and MGM was going to make a

[1:57:39] movie of it and the Turkish government

[1:57:42] uh threatened to boycott American

[1:57:44] products if MGM put that film out. And

[1:57:46] so they were squashed and there wasn't

[1:57:48] another one again until I think like

[1:57:50] like Ararat or something you know which

[1:57:53] was like 90s like it just you know and

[1:57:55] and even then it's been completely under

[1:57:57] represented. Um, I have a lot of, you

[1:57:59] know, Jewish friends who had no idea

[1:58:01] that there was a Holocaust before, you

[1:58:03] know, a genocide before the the Jewish

[1:58:05] Holocaust. And, uh, so it's not taught

[1:58:09] and um, you know, and and and certainly

[1:58:13] when you're a little kid and the adults

[1:58:15] get together and start talking, you're

[1:58:18] picking up on little things, but it's

[1:58:20] not until you're older that you start

[1:58:21] asking those questions. And you know, I

[1:58:24] know I have a long crazy, you know,

[1:58:26] Italian last name, but [snorts] um my

[1:58:29] mother, I think, is more culturally

[1:58:30] Armenian than anything. She's half

[1:58:32] Croatian, but she's Armenian because her

[1:58:34] mother was the one making the food for

[1:58:36] her. And her grandmother was the one

[1:58:38] coming over to take care of her and and

[1:58:41] visit. And so there was a lot of

[1:58:42] Armenian culture in my like culturally I

[1:58:46] grew up with with a mother who was more

[1:58:47] who was Armenian. Mhm.

[1:58:49] >> Um and so, um

[1:58:53] once you start asking all of those

[1:58:55] questions, then you start doing the

[1:58:56] research. Then you find Peter Bolakian's

[1:58:59] books, The Burning Tigris, which is like

[1:59:01] a textbook, and then you find the Black

[1:59:02] Dog of Fate, which is a a memoir about

[1:59:04] his memories of his grandmother that

[1:59:06] survived the genocide. And that was a

[1:59:08] big influence on me. Um that's probably

[1:59:10] my favorite memoir is Black Dog of Fate.

[1:59:13] And um it always stuck with me after I

[1:59:16] read it. and um

[1:59:20] and he was instrumental in in me writing

[1:59:22] that chapter about the genocide that

[1:59:25] appears in the book and he would um you

[1:59:27] know proofread it give me notes and

[1:59:28] things like that and and making sure

[1:59:29] that I was historically accurate because

[1:59:31] at the time there were only those two

[1:59:32] books. Now since like Eric Bosian who's

[1:59:34] another you know hero of mine wrote uh

[1:59:37] took seven years to write Operation

[1:59:39] Nemesis which was about the attempts by

[1:59:42] the Armenians after the war to kill all

[1:59:46] of the Turkish government officials who

[1:59:50] were responsible for the genocide who

[1:59:52] were freed because of the oil contracts

[1:59:54] and military interests in Turkey. they

[1:59:56] were all freed. And so this wealthy

[1:59:58] Armenian, it was about like the Armenian

[2:00:00] Munich.

[2:00:00] >> Mhm.

[2:00:00] >> And so he wrote this book, Operation

[2:00:02] Nemesis, which by so once you start

[2:00:04] reading those and getting into those,

[2:00:05] you start asking questions and you go,

[2:00:06] who's this German guy? [gasps]

[2:00:08] >> And I kept trying to get on the show to

[2:00:10] see if I could figure it out. And um in

[2:00:14] getting those answers,

[2:00:16] the show said

[2:00:19] the show called to say, "We can't go any

[2:00:23] forward with the filming of the episode

[2:00:27] until we talk to you." And when we got

[2:00:30] on the phone, they said

[2:00:33] your father,

[2:00:35] his father wasn't his father. So your

[2:00:38] your your paternal grandfather, Emlio

[2:00:41] John Manganello,

[2:00:43] it's not your father's father, it's

[2:00:44] somebody else. It's like, wait, so okay,

[2:00:47] wait, did you find the German? Okay,

[2:00:49] forget about that. You know, if you do

[2:00:51] the show, we'll tell you.

[2:00:53] >> You thought you understood the paternal

[2:00:55] side of your ancestry and this gets

[2:00:57] upended.

[2:00:58] >> Yeah. My dad is uh full-blooded Italian

[2:01:01] man, FBI, you know, and we'd watch Good

[2:01:04] Fellas and he'd say, "See, oh, Henry

[2:01:05] Hill, he can't get made because he's

[2:01:07] halfIrish. You kids can't get made

[2:01:10] because of your mom. I'm I'm

[2:01:11] full-blooded Italian." You know, he that

[2:01:13] was a very a source of pride. And also,

[2:01:16] you know, these are very, you know,

[2:01:18] territorial days in Boston. So, you have

[2:01:22] neighborhoods and anywhere, you know,

[2:01:23] any big city, you have neighborhoods

[2:01:24] sectioned off by ethnicity. Everybody

[2:01:27] fights because they used to fight in the

[2:01:28] old world and you better not bring home

[2:01:30] some guy from another neighborhood to

[2:01:33] meet your dad because we've been

[2:01:34] fighting for centuries and how dare you

[2:01:36] and you know it's just different you

[2:01:37] know like all that colloquialism and and

[2:01:40] kind of like nationalism sort of like

[2:01:43] you know once you start getting into the

[2:01:44] mixing pot you have to start rethinking

[2:01:45] all of that especially when like you're

[2:01:47] not an ocean away you're two blocks away

[2:01:50] you know and but that's how Boston was

[2:01:51] at the time so you were what your

[2:01:53] ethnicity was your last name that's who

[2:01:55] you were my dad was full-blooded

[2:01:56] Italian. So to find out that [gasps]

[2:01:59] that half of him wasn't what what we

[2:02:01] thought um and in fact half of them were

[2:02:04] basically like the other two

[2:02:05] neighborhoods you grew up fighting

[2:02:06] against

[2:02:07] >> um

[2:02:08] >> and uh

[2:02:11] made sense to me.

[2:02:14] >> How'd he take it?

[2:02:16] Not great. [laughter]

[2:02:17] But I think at 72 years old to I mean

[2:02:22] identity is such a

[2:02:25] such a strange thing. I I mean to a

[2:02:28] certain degree. I mean um

[2:02:32] >> and a fragile thing I think. Um but um

[2:02:37] yeah, I know I I can't speak for him and

[2:02:38] I I don't want to speak for him, but uh

[2:02:41] but I I I I can't imagine

[2:02:44] going through 72 years of life and then

[2:02:46] having someone say, you know, I I I just

[2:02:49] I just I hope that it made sense the way

[2:02:52] that it did for me

[2:02:53] >> because it it felt for me like

[2:02:57] like my eyes were out of focus when I

[2:02:59] looked in the mirror. My whole life, I

[2:03:01] didn't know what I was looking at. Like

[2:03:03] what am I like? You can't put me on the

[2:03:05] Sopranos because I don't look like

[2:03:07] those. I don't fully look like those

[2:03:08] guys. You can tell I'm mixed with

[2:03:10] something. I'm like part Viking.

[2:03:14] I don't have any body hair. So that's I

[2:03:16] don't know where that came from. You

[2:03:18] know, people in Europe think I'm German

[2:03:20] when I'm there and they don't know me

[2:03:22] who I am. They you know. And uh so I was

[2:03:26] like, "Oh yeah, this makes total sense."

[2:03:28] Like, "Oh my gosh." like,

[2:03:31] okay, I know who I now it's focus for

[2:03:33] me. Um, but also, um, you know, I I

[2:03:39] think that, um,

[2:03:41] I think that when you, if you know, if

[2:03:43] you're sick and you start asking why,

[2:03:45] and then you start looking at, you know,

[2:03:48] what went on with your parents, you

[2:03:49] start looking at what went on with your

[2:03:51] parents' parents, and you really start

[2:03:52] walking this stuff back, you you can see

[2:03:55] what what slides downhill.

[2:03:57] For me, the the meaning and the impact

[2:04:01] of all of this

[2:04:03] lands with this idea that you have this

[2:04:05] latent impulse to investigate your

[2:04:08] ancestry.

[2:04:09] >> Yeah.

[2:04:09] >> That was, you know, kind of incepted

[2:04:11] into you by, you know, whatever was

[2:04:13] going on. It doesn't even matter. like

[2:04:15] this is like this thing inside of you

[2:04:17] and you're driven,

[2:04:19] >> you know, towards a greater

[2:04:20] understanding of where you came from.

[2:04:23] >> Without

[2:04:24] >> consciously understanding at the time

[2:04:26] that this is actually the skeleton key

[2:04:28] that is going to unlock everything that

[2:04:30] you're searching for in terms of

[2:04:32] >> healing yourself, understanding who you

[2:04:35] are, like you know, confronting all of

[2:04:37] these conflicting identities and the

[2:04:39] confusion that that's causing you. like

[2:04:41] all of it is on the other side of this

[2:04:45] kind of journey of discovery into the

[2:04:48] past.

[2:04:49] >> Yeah. and and even then after [snorts]

[2:04:53] all that work

[2:04:56] finding out the identity of the German

[2:05:00] and then I have this realization when

[2:05:03] I'm in Armenia that it it just doesn't

[2:05:05] matter doesn't matter who who the father

[2:05:08] was has has no bearing on anything

[2:05:11] >> these are stories

[2:05:12] >> yeah it well

[2:05:13] >> we attach meaning to

[2:05:15] >> the meaning of that this story was

[2:05:20] in the understanding of my illness and

[2:05:22] where it came from and the roots of it.

[2:05:25] Um,

[2:05:27] my great-grandmother survived what she

[2:05:29] had to survive

[2:05:32] so that she could wind up pregnant by

[2:05:36] this German

[2:05:39] and the and and give birth to this baby

[2:05:41] alone that she believed God sent to her.

[2:05:48] I mean, it's the story of the immaculate

[2:05:52] conception in a way. A woman with a

[2:05:55] child without a father who's the father.

[2:05:57] She believed God was the father. God

[2:05:58] sent her the baby to help her survive.

[2:06:03] And that baby, my grandmother,

[2:06:07] [sighs]

[2:06:08] you know, dies at age 40, young,

[2:06:12] and uh was sick for half her life.

[2:06:14] doesn't get to see my mother grow up

[2:06:16] >> like lupus.

[2:06:17] >> Yeah, lupus. And her hands were closing

[2:06:19] up the way that mine were. She was

[2:06:21] covered in a skin rash. Skin rashes the

[2:06:23] point where she had to wear gloves in

[2:06:24] public, hats the way that I was.

[2:06:28] And um and all of that happened to her

[2:06:32] heading into age 40 just like it did for

[2:06:33] me. And then in my darkest hour,

[2:06:38] I adopt this this little dog that's been

[2:06:40] sleeping on my lap the whole time who is

[2:06:43] like an angel sent to me to make sure

[2:06:47] that I don't do something drastic or

[2:06:49] that I have a reason or I can shift from

[2:06:51] the role of patient, sick, sick patient

[2:06:54] to caregiver,

[2:06:56] >> which is what you learn in AA

[2:06:58] >> to get out of yourself to go take care

[2:06:59] of somebody else, be of service, and

[2:07:01] you'll get out of your own head. you get

[2:07:02] out of your own illness. And um the dog

[2:07:06] came to me the way that my grandmother

[2:07:07] was sent to my great-grandmother, but

[2:07:10] then you have my mother who's the third

[2:07:12] one in the line. And my mother suffers

[2:07:14] from these these, you know, panic

[2:07:16] disorders from the time she was young.

[2:07:18] And um I think it was her way of holding

[2:07:21] off

[2:07:23] that, you know, the shadow whatever

[2:07:27] whatever that that the disease, the

[2:07:29] thing coming for her. It was like if I

[2:07:32] don't feel it fully then it can't get

[2:07:34] me. But then that there's aspects of

[2:07:38] that that that play out in the rest of

[2:07:40] your life as well.

[2:07:43] >> And that translates into not being able

[2:07:46] to make herself available to meet your

[2:07:50] emotional needs when you're young.

[2:07:52] >> Yeah.

[2:07:53] >> Like not not a lot of hugging, not a lot

[2:07:56] of nurturing.

[2:07:57] >> It was Yeah.

[2:07:58] >> Out of self-preservation.

[2:07:59] >> Yeah. and and you know and uh and then

[2:08:03] he gets me and um

[2:08:07] and and I've I've you know I gave this

[2:08:09] speech at the uh I'm a I'm a board

[2:08:12] member at the Children of Armenia Fund

[2:08:13] and I got involved they they asked me to

[2:08:15] they they they offered to give me a

[2:08:17] humanitarian award at their 20th

[2:08:19] anniversary gayla because of speaking up

[2:08:22] about the genocide on finding your roots

[2:08:23] that became this like really important

[2:08:25] TV episode for for Armenians and I I

[2:08:27] kept getting stopped everywhere like in

[2:08:28] airports people were crying And I mean

[2:08:30] it was like led to all these

[2:08:31] conversations and uh but I'd also hear

[2:08:33] from people um

[2:08:36] so you're only an eighth Armenian, you

[2:08:38] know, like I'm not

[2:08:40] or um I think it's so great how how

[2:08:44] you're like born again Armenian. You're

[2:08:45] like discovering all of this and you're

[2:08:47] getting so involved and it's like

[2:08:49] I my mother's more culturally Armenian

[2:08:52] than anything. So I grew up with like I

[2:08:54] excuse me, you know, like hi, you know,

[2:08:56] uh,

[2:08:58] but

[2:09:00] what hit me was

[2:09:04] the point is is that

[2:09:07] I am Armenian.

[2:09:09] And

[2:09:11] what happened happened

[2:09:13] for me to be here. And I carry a link to

[2:09:17] that ancient bloodline because of what

[2:09:22] they all went through. And

[2:09:25] in the final chapter of the book, it's

[2:09:27] called The Monarch because

[2:09:30] um you know, my current AA sponsor, uh

[2:09:34] he was proofreading chapters for me as I

[2:09:37] was writing and he gets it. He gets the

[2:09:39] whole thing. And um and he said

[2:09:42] something incredibly wise that stuck to

[2:09:44] me. He said, "You know, monarch

[2:09:45] butterflies take four generations to

[2:09:47] migrate."

[2:09:49] And uh [clears throat and cough]

[2:09:53] the first three fly as far as they can

[2:09:56] and then it's the fourth one that gets

[2:09:58] there. And I feel like,

[2:10:01] [cough and snorts]

[2:10:02] you know, this this book is me getting

[2:10:04] there and hopefully

[2:10:07] breaking

[2:10:09] that pattern.

[2:10:11] I I I know where I came from. I know

[2:10:14] what I carry with me. I know that it

[2:10:15] wasn't random.

[2:10:17] and I've grown to a place where

[2:10:22] I don't complain about it. Um,

[2:10:27] why not me? If I could do it

[2:10:31] now, if I die and I find out that I

[2:10:33] chose all of this for myself, I'm going

[2:10:35] to be [laughter] pissed off and I'm

[2:10:37] never doing this again.

[2:10:41] But

[2:10:44] having been when I went having been

[2:10:46] through what I what I went through,

[2:10:49] I'm glad I did and I'm okay with it. And

[2:10:54] um

[2:10:56] and I hope that

[2:11:00] I hope that one day I have tangible

[2:11:02] proof that [snorts] I have broken the

[2:11:05] chain because, you know, I have healthy

[2:11:09] children.

[2:11:11] that don't have to don't have to think

[2:11:13] about this or don't have to deal with

[2:11:14] any of this anymore. And and I hope that

[2:11:17] the book provides

[2:11:20] provides the shove off

[2:11:23] for

[2:11:25] thousands and thousands of boats

[2:11:28] with people with with nothing better to

[2:11:30] do

[2:11:32] than try to figure out where their own

[2:11:34] mystery illnesses started and came from

[2:11:37] and try to find those answers the way

[2:11:39] that I did.

[2:11:40] >> You talk about warrior mode. To me,

[2:11:45] there is no greater like battle to

[2:11:47] engage with as a warrior than to

[2:11:50] confront generations of

[2:11:55] trauma that you've inherited and to

[2:12:00] overcome

[2:12:02] them, to heal them, to uh make peace

[2:12:06] with them,

[2:12:08] and to arrest that cycle and spare your

[2:12:11] children. and the next generation from

[2:12:14] suffering what you had to like that's

[2:12:17] the greatest gift that you could give

[2:12:19] your children

[2:12:21] and I think this relationship like this

[2:12:23] understanding that

[2:12:26] you did inherit like some of this and we

[2:12:29] all do like like in our epigenetics like

[2:12:32] >> in a way that we can't quite make sense

[2:12:35] of in our mitochondria or whatever

[2:12:37] science can or can't tell us about the

[2:12:40] veracity of that there is this somatic

[2:12:44] experience of truth that yes, they live

[2:12:47] inside of us

[2:12:49] >> and for better or worse. And in your

[2:12:51] case, like the the the the trauma of

[2:12:55] your ancestors is so severe.

[2:12:58] So severe.

[2:12:59] >> Yeah.

[2:13:02] >> And to the extent that maybe you just

[2:13:05] are inhabiting like a fraction of that,

[2:13:07] it's still enough. like what is the

[2:13:09] relationship of that to your alcoholism

[2:13:12] to this autoimmune disease and how do

[2:13:15] you and and and to like grapple with

[2:13:17] that like that is you know that is a

[2:13:20] heroic act like this is the crux of the

[2:13:22] hero's journey

[2:13:24] >> um and to come out the other side I mean

[2:13:26] you still haven't really elaborated on

[2:13:29] the relationship with you confronting

[2:13:33] this and and reckoning with it and how

[2:13:36] that translated into like healing

[2:13:39] >> like you you have overcome this illness

[2:13:42] that you described in such horrific

[2:13:45] fashion.

[2:13:46] >> So help me understand that part of it

[2:13:49] >> cuz there's all these mystical things

[2:13:51] and and synchronicities with prayer

[2:13:54] cards and like it's like God is talking

[2:13:56] to you throughout this whole thing.

[2:13:57] >> Oh yeah.

[2:13:58] >> I mean it's it's it's wild, man.

[2:14:00] >> Yes, it is. Um

[2:14:03] and and um so

[2:14:07] you know

[2:14:09] there was a day I woke up and I felt

[2:14:11] better and I had no idea why. It was

[2:14:15] like uh first of all did you ever get a

[2:14:18] proper diagnosis?

[2:14:19] >> I mean it was all dumping ground stuff.

[2:14:21] It was all like you know I mean

[2:14:25] you know I was grappling with what am I

[2:14:27] calling this colitis? Am I calling it

[2:14:30] Crohn's? like what are those? Because

[2:14:33] I've met a hundred people and all of

[2:14:35] them have different symptoms or

[2:14:36] different levels of severity and it's

[2:14:39] it's just it's a it's a dumpster that

[2:14:41] they're throwing things into that they

[2:14:43] don't know how to explain. They don't

[2:14:44] know where they come from. They don't

[2:14:46] know how to treat them.

[2:14:47] >> Um

[2:14:49] >> Shogruns syndrome or, you know, sweet

[2:14:53] syndrome.

[2:14:55] um

[2:14:57] you know and and then they're going to

[2:14:58] send you off to a host a handful of

[2:15:00] doctors that all aren't going to

[2:15:01] communicate with each other other than

[2:15:04] you're in the the results are in the

[2:15:05] central database and every time you go

[2:15:07] in they're going to ask you are you

[2:15:09] still allergic to this are you still

[2:15:11] taking this are you still no take God

[2:15:14] I've told I've done this every time I go

[2:15:16] into the damn new office um they're

[2:15:20] compartmentalizing all of your issues

[2:15:23] and nobody Nobody was looking at it

[2:15:25] holistically.

[2:15:26] There's there's something in the control

[2:15:28] room inside of my body that's flipping

[2:15:29] switches. What is it? And where's the

[2:15:32] off switch? And how do we tell it to

[2:15:33] stop? And um

[2:15:37] and so to me, it it just didn't matter.

[2:15:40] Like I I didn't I didn't think of it in

[2:15:42] any of those terms or or ways. It's how

[2:15:45] do I tell my body to stop attacking

[2:15:46] itself? How do I stop this? How do I

[2:15:48] stop the civil war?

[2:15:50] And um

[2:15:53] you know there was there was a day that

[2:15:54] that I woke up and I felt better and and

[2:15:57] I I I I had this funny feeling like I I

[2:16:00] just felt different every time for for

[2:16:04] seven years. I knew it was in there. I

[2:16:06] knew there was fighting going on. I knew

[2:16:08] that if I exerted myself at all, I was

[2:16:10] going to get sick because it was taking

[2:16:13] soldiers from the autoimmune battlefield

[2:16:15] away to like build muscle in the gym,

[2:16:19] you know, or whatever. And and and if

[2:16:21] they took troops away, then I would get

[2:16:23] sick. I would collapse.

[2:16:25] >> And um so I knew not to push just, you

[2:16:30] know, um and I woke up one day and felt

[2:16:32] like I felt hungry.

[2:16:34] I haven't been hungry in a long time

[2:16:36] because I know if I eat it's going to

[2:16:38] cause pain and it's going to cause

[2:16:39] blood. So it's like why would you want

[2:16:41] to eat? Because you have to. It's like

[2:16:44] okay, you know, and the dog would make

[2:16:45] me eat. She'd come over and make sure I

[2:16:46] was eating cuz she wanted like snacks

[2:16:49] off the table. But still, you know,

[2:16:51] >> she would make sure I was eating. You

[2:16:52] have to eat. You have to eat now. You

[2:16:53] have to eat. No, I didn't want to. I

[2:16:54] woke up one day, I wanted to eat the

[2:16:57] hell. It started with that.

[2:16:59] And then from there,

[2:17:02] days started stringing together, weeks

[2:17:04] started stringing together. I felt like,

[2:17:07] okay, you're going to start working out

[2:17:08] again. You're going to work out now.

[2:17:10] You're going to have to eat more. So far

[2:17:12] so good. Okay, now let's work out.

[2:17:14] Increase the intensity. See what

[2:17:15] happens. So far so good. Months like

[2:17:18] that started happening. I knew like

[2:17:20] something's going on. I'm better. Like I

[2:17:23] I don't I don't know how to explain it.

[2:17:25] It's gone. Like it's gone. I'm telling

[2:17:26] you, it's it's gone. And um I was

[2:17:30] working out at home and I had YouTube on

[2:17:34] and uh you know one video ended and

[2:17:37] another one started up and it was you

[2:17:38] talking to Gabbor Mate and

[2:17:42] I stopped because it was like everything

[2:17:45] I'm hearing is like for me.

[2:17:49] Oh, and they're talking you're talking

[2:17:50] about you know autoimmune disorder you

[2:17:52] know and and talking about uh

[2:17:55] >> spontaneous remission. was on a

[2:17:56] spontaneous remission is what I heard

[2:17:58] and he starts describing what happened

[2:18:00] to me. Like I couldn't explain why I

[2:18:02] felt better and then I did that that

[2:18:05] that that.

[2:18:07] So I fumbled around in the dark and

[2:18:09] found the light switch

[2:18:11] and I I I got on my phone and I looked

[2:18:14] up his Instagram page and followed and

[2:18:16] then DM'd his daughter answered and

[2:18:18] said, "Uh, I know who you are and my dad

[2:18:21] will talk to you this afternoon." So, I

[2:18:24] got on a call and talked to Gabbora that

[2:18:26] day and we talked about repression,

[2:18:30] growing up and repressing those feelings

[2:18:32] of

[2:18:34] um being emotionally intelligent or

[2:18:36] being, you know, shamed for being

[2:18:39] sensitive,

[2:18:41] which you know, an alcohol is.

[2:18:42] Alcoholics, you you are too sensitive.

[2:18:44] You probably should be less sensitive.

[2:18:46] But sensitivity is also the superpower.

[2:18:48] It's why there's so many great artists

[2:18:50] who are alcoholics because they're they

[2:18:52] see things and feel things and do micro

[2:18:55] calculations in ways that most people

[2:18:57] can't that are annoying to other people.

[2:18:59] People are annoyed when I know I know

[2:19:01] the second their mood shifts. What

[2:19:03] happened right there? What' you do? Get

[2:19:04] out of my head. Stop. Leave me alone.

[2:19:06] You know, like I'm the worst in

[2:19:07] relationships cuz I know when someone's

[2:19:09] mood shifts, you know, my fiance is

[2:19:11] like, "Will you stop it, please?" She

[2:19:13] has to get used to me. I know

[2:19:15] something's going on like three steps

[2:19:18] before she even Yeah. knows something's

[2:19:20] happening.

[2:19:21] >> That empathy that you described.

[2:19:23] >> Yeah. [snorts]

[2:19:23] >> At the beginning of

[2:19:25] >> But you you push that down cuz it's

[2:19:26] like, you know, you got to be masculine

[2:19:28] or, you know, whatever that scene as

[2:19:30] where if you know, emotional

[2:19:32] intelligence is yin, aggression is

[2:19:34] masculine, and they're just polar

[2:19:36] opposites and nothing's wrong or right

[2:19:38] or toxic or not. I'm not, you know, but

[2:19:42] the idea that um that when fame happened

[2:19:46] to me, I was like, "Oh, great. I don't

[2:19:49] ever have to be accused of being all

[2:19:51] these things that have been rattling

[2:19:53] around in my head ever again, I can just

[2:19:54] be that and I'm going to build this

[2:19:56] avatar and I'm going to be that guy."

[2:19:58] But then people are going to assume that

[2:20:00] I'm stupid because I've created this

[2:20:02] avatar and they're going to talk to me

[2:20:03] in a way that isn't commensurate with

[2:20:06] >> the respect that I feel like I should

[2:20:07] deserve. and I see that they're doing it

[2:20:09] and I hate it and I can see it in real

[2:20:10] time and now I hate the whole thing,

[2:20:12] [laughter] you know, and I and I I think

[2:20:14] less of them for believing in the avatar

[2:20:16] because it was all fake anyway. Didn't

[2:20:18] you know that?

[2:20:18] >> And you architected the whole thing.

[2:20:20] >> I know. And then I hate it. So it's like

[2:20:21] now I have no one to blame but me.

[2:20:23] [laughter]

[2:20:23] >> Uhhuh.

[2:20:24] >> And um and the illness tore the whole

[2:20:27] thing down. Took my body away. Took the

[2:20:30] whole thing down. All of it. the body,

[2:20:33] the career, the relationship, the public

[2:20:37] image, all of it. All of it was gone.

[2:20:40] You're nothing. You're nothing but a

[2:20:42] spirit housed in this shell. And that's

[2:20:44] it. What are you going to be? If you're

[2:20:47] alive next week,

[2:20:49] which

[2:20:51] us sitting around this conference table

[2:20:53] up in the sky, we're not sure if you're

[2:20:56] going to be around next week. So, what

[2:20:57] do you got, pal? You going to surrender?

[2:20:59] You going to let go and let us run the

[2:21:01] show? or you want to keep running it.

[2:21:03] What do you want to do? And so talking

[2:21:06] to Gabbor, it's like, oh yeah, I

[2:21:10] architected the whole thing. I I I

[2:21:13] repressed all of these parts of myself,

[2:21:16] compartmentalized, pushed things down,

[2:21:19] never spoke about how I felt. Um,

[2:21:24] and I was angry. I was angry at God. I

[2:21:28] was angry at the universe. I was angry

[2:21:29] about about why this was happening to

[2:21:31] me. I was not in acceptance.

[2:21:34] Um, I wanted my old life back. I wanted

[2:21:36] the next job. I wanted that thing that

[2:21:38] was going to get me out of it.

[2:21:40] Um, but what he said was that it all got

[2:21:43] kicked off. The healing got kicked off

[2:21:45] because of

[2:21:49] at one point the pain was so bad. And I

[2:21:52] was in a hotel room trying to finish

[2:21:53] this movie. I was shooting in New Jersey

[2:21:56] called The Kill Room. And I had been in

[2:21:59] chronic pain for months and I was

[2:22:01] sweating and hemorrhaging blood again.

[2:22:04] And I thought I was gonna have to leave

[2:22:05] this movie

[2:22:07] and uh go to the emergency room and I

[2:22:10] had the dog in the hotel with me

[2:22:14] and you know my marriage was for the

[2:22:16] most part over at that point.

[2:22:19] You know she wasn't available to even

[2:22:21] come and get the dog out of the hotel

[2:22:23] room so that I could in case I need to

[2:22:24] go to the hospital. I was alone,

[2:22:28] like alone with this dog in the room

[2:22:31] with the blood. This I mean it was like

[2:22:34] what am I doing? And I called my doctors

[2:22:35] and they said we need you to come back

[2:22:38] to LA and what we're going to do is

[2:22:40] we're going to cut you open. We're going

[2:22:41] to divert you back to the osttomy bag to

[2:22:43] give your system a break so you stop

[2:22:46] bleeding.

[2:22:48] and like a career criminal

[2:22:52] who's hearing that we're going to come

[2:22:53] and take you back to prison. No, you're

[2:22:56] not. They're like, "What?" I'm like,

[2:22:58] "Not doing it."

[2:23:01] Well, you have to. No, I don't. I don't

[2:23:04] have to do anything. And I don't want to

[2:23:06] live that way. I'm not going to do it

[2:23:08] again.

[2:23:12] They begged me. I said no. And I hung

[2:23:14] up. And Gabbor said that that was the

[2:23:18] moment that I took back my own agency.

[2:23:20] That all the only agency I had left was

[2:23:23] over whether I could live or die. Like I

[2:23:25] was given this gift of life, which mind

[2:23:28] you, I didn't do anything drastic. You

[2:23:30] know, there was a moment where I had to

[2:23:31] give my gun away. Right before I got the

[2:23:33] dog, I gave the gun away cuz I kept

[2:23:34] thinking about it and just stuck it out.

[2:23:40] And

[2:23:43] I chose

[2:23:45] that that I I regardless of what was

[2:23:48] going to happen to me, I I I I I wasn't

[2:23:51] going to go back and if I was going to

[2:23:53] be dead, come and take me cuz I'm done

[2:23:55] with all this. Like I just had had it.

[2:23:58] And that was really the final surrender

[2:24:00] where I let go of it all. And um

[2:24:06] I somehow finished that movie, went back

[2:24:09] home to LA,

[2:24:11] crawled into a spare bedroom for 3

[2:24:14] months, just heavily medicated. I w up

[2:24:17] being put on fentinyl patches. I was on

[2:24:20] opioids with acettomenophen to

[2:24:22] accelerate it. I was on a nerve

[2:24:24] medication for my neck that I took at

[2:24:26] night. I was getting THC tinctures. Like

[2:24:29] nothing was breaking through. And it got

[2:24:32] to the point where I then had to take in

[2:24:35] like large doses of marijuana during the

[2:24:38] day because I thought I was I just

[2:24:40] thought I'm I'm going to die. I I can't

[2:24:42] get comfortable. It's 24 hours a day.

[2:24:46] I'm awake all night trying to take these

[2:24:47] pain. I'm like out of my mind. I mean, I

[2:24:49] was going crazy. Fentinel P. I mean, I'm

[2:24:51] like the whole thing was just it's like

[2:24:53] what am I doing? Like this is the

[2:24:55] biggest waste. I can't do another movie

[2:24:58] because of look at what just happened.

[2:25:00] Like, so that's done. You're done as an

[2:25:01] actor. You're done leaving the house.

[2:25:04] Like, you're you're done finding five

[2:25:06] seconds where you're not in pain. And I

[2:25:09] told the doctors, "No,

[2:25:11] I'm ready to die. Like, hurry up."

[2:25:15] And um after 3 months of being

[2:25:20] medicated, trying to get out of pain, I

[2:25:22] I think there was something in the

[2:25:24] marijuana that broke through. And um I

[2:25:28] think it bumped

[2:25:30] the record that was skipping that pain

[2:25:32] record. It bumped it to the next song,

[2:25:35] the marijuana.

[2:25:36] [sighs]

[2:25:38] >> And that's I started feeling better

[2:25:41] incrementally and then I woke up that

[2:25:42] day and felt like I I want to eat. And

[2:25:46] then I knew I was done with the

[2:25:49] marijuana so I had to get off of the

[2:25:51] marijuana, which I did. Then I had to

[2:25:53] start stretching out

[2:25:56] the fentinel or the pain pills. Started

[2:25:58] stretching those out. Got off of those.

[2:26:01] Stretched out the fentinel patches.

[2:26:04] Got off of those. Then stretched out the

[2:26:07] nerve medication.

[2:26:09] Got off of that. Like just detox piece

[2:26:11] by piece by piece to get back to my

[2:26:13] baseline. And then of course my

[2:26:14] insurance company called and said, "Oh,

[2:26:17] now that you're feeling better, um,

[2:26:19] you're going to have to choose between

[2:26:20] the two drugs that you're taking that

[2:26:22] may have been responsible for you

[2:26:23] feeling better." Now, I knew that there

[2:26:25] wasn't the drugs that made me feel

[2:26:26] better, but I definitely let them know

[2:26:28] what I think thought about what they

[2:26:29] were saying, you know. Oh, so finally

[2:26:31] after seven years of brutal, agonizing,

[2:26:34] excruciating pain, and I feel better

[2:26:37] now. Finally.

[2:26:39] And now you're going to make me do a

[2:26:40] Sophie's choice of which drug I think

[2:26:43] may have been responsible and you're

[2:26:44] going to make me get off of one. I go,

[2:26:45] "Shame on you." I go, "If I die, I will

[2:26:48] make sure that I leave it in my will

[2:26:50] that there will be someone whose life

[2:26:52] goal and I will leave them everything

[2:26:54] that I own to try to take you down in

[2:26:56] court for killing me." I said, "So, I

[2:26:58] hope this is recorded. This conversation

[2:27:00] recorded. I heard that at the beginning

[2:27:02] of conversation. I said, "There's blood

[2:27:03] on your hands. So, watch me. I'm going

[2:27:05] to quit one of these drugs. Take me off

[2:27:07] of the pills. Fine. I'll I'll only do

[2:27:09] the other one. But I I knew that was the

[2:27:11] reason why. But I wanted to put these

[2:27:13] people through

[2:27:14] >> because they're just, you know, they're

[2:27:16] not

[2:27:19] how can you care.

[2:27:20] >> Mhm.

[2:27:21] >> Uh and I told all of this to to Gabbor

[2:27:24] and he said, um, sounds like you're

[2:27:27] living an authentic life finally

[2:27:30] and as long as you continue to live

[2:27:32] authentically, I think you're going to

[2:27:34] be okay.

[2:27:36] And then I met the shaman from

[2:27:37] Australia, Peter,

[2:27:40] which is a whole other adventure

[2:27:42] [sighs and gasps]

[2:27:43] >> and her breath work and all kinds of

[2:27:46] other, you know,

[2:27:47] >> kind of wild stuff.

[2:27:48] >> Yeah. Healing modality.

[2:27:49] >> But your show was

[2:27:52] that light bulb that came on for me that

[2:27:54] made me perk up and and and and and

[2:27:58] realize

[2:28:00] why like, you know, cuz people ask me,

[2:28:03] my mother asked me like, "What

[2:28:04] happened?" like how did you get better?

[2:28:07] And at the time I I didn't know but but

[2:28:10] after talking to Gabbor I I know now

[2:28:12] like I I know he's right. And um and so

[2:28:15] it's uh it's fitting that you know to

[2:28:17] kick off the

[2:28:19] book press tour that that I'm here with

[2:28:21] you because you know I mention I

[2:28:24] mentioned that that that conversation in

[2:28:26] in the book.

[2:28:28] >> It's amazing to hear that um and and

[2:28:31] moving for me. I mean, it it's it's

[2:28:33] helpful as a reminder to as to like why

[2:28:36] I do this, you know?

[2:28:38] >> You never know where the boomerang flies

[2:28:40] out to.

[2:28:40] >> It's it's kind of a, you know, a weirdly

[2:28:43] abstract job, you know, while I'm

[2:28:45] putting this transmission out there, but

[2:28:47] I'm sort of detached from how it's being

[2:28:49] received or or how it's impacting

[2:28:51] people. So, it's it's like emotional for

[2:28:53] me to hear that. And it's reminding me

[2:28:55] of the first time that I met Gabbor

[2:28:57] because that episode was actually the

[2:28:59] second one. The first one I saw him out

[2:29:02] in

[2:29:04] it must have been I'd have to look but I

[2:29:06] would I think it was probably

[2:29:08] 2014 maybe 2015

[2:29:11] >> and he had come on my radar and I was

[2:29:13] like I have to meet this guy and I flew

[2:29:15] to Vancouver

[2:29:17] like I was still

[2:29:18] >> you know kind of a traveling salesman

[2:29:20] with microphones you know begging,

[2:29:22] borrowing and stealing trying to

[2:29:23] convince people to come on the show and

[2:29:26] and the only way I was going to you know

[2:29:28] get him to do it was to like go to him

[2:29:31] >> and I went to him and he did what I

[2:29:34] wanted him to do which is to flip the

[2:29:36] equation around and and basically like

[2:29:39] deconstruct me and it was a version of

[2:29:42] like listen you know you I'm sure your

[2:29:45] you know parents are loving people and

[2:29:47] they did their best but like the truth

[2:29:49] of the matter is is like you have all of

[2:29:50] these needs that went unmet you can't

[2:29:53] say that that is

[2:29:56] >> um unrelated to the struggles that

[2:29:58] you've gone gone through in your life

[2:30:00] and

[2:30:00] >> you need to like look at this and heal

[2:30:02] this and make peace with this otherwise

[2:30:04] it's going to continue

[2:30:06] >> to show up and drive a barren behavior

[2:30:09] in your life and that

[2:30:11] >> has proven to be true like I I was still

[2:30:13] I wasn't ready to really like it was the

[2:30:15] first time that I was being confronted

[2:30:17] with these ideas and I I don't think I

[2:30:19] was quite ready to really fully

[2:30:23] take that on. Um,

[2:30:27] but every day since then I've thought

[2:30:29] about that and I've been on this

[2:30:31] >> journey to like really reckon with my

[2:30:34] past and and and and heal this stuff

[2:30:36] because it shows up in my marriage and

[2:30:38] parent like you know you know how it

[2:30:40] just metastasizes and it like there's a

[2:30:42] there's a like a yucky layer that covers

[2:30:45] everything until you really kind of like

[2:30:47] look at this stuff and deal with it.

[2:30:49] >> Yeah. And that's, you know, going back

[2:30:51] to like sobriety and

[2:30:52] >> and it's nothing, let me just say, sorry

[2:30:54] to interrupt you, but but it's nothing

[2:30:56] like what you have had to, you know,

[2:30:58] it's like a very minor version of like

[2:31:00] what your pain is your pain.

[2:31:02] >> Well, but I but I hear you saying is

[2:31:05] that there's a series of knots in a rope

[2:31:08] and I can't get these things untied.

[2:31:10] Like I don't understand it and it's not

[2:31:13] one knot. you know, when I started

[2:31:15] writing the book or started meeting with

[2:31:17] publishers,

[2:31:19] um,

[2:31:21] sometimes people would say things to me

[2:31:22] like, you know, what are your your four

[2:31:25] steps to getting over your autoimmune

[2:31:28] issues for for other people out there?

[2:31:29] And I'm like, are you testing me to see

[2:31:31] if I'm going to put the number four on a

[2:31:33] book cover in terms of and like, you

[2:31:36] know, hey, you know, and my answer was,

[2:31:39] I don't know. like I don't know what

[2:31:40] they are

[2:31:43] because I was at the beginning of

[2:31:44] writing the book. The book process for

[2:31:46] me was sorting through all of it and

[2:31:50] understanding what

[2:31:52] what had to do with what and um and then

[2:31:56] also like what's interesting and not

[2:31:58] interesting because people would say

[2:31:59] also to me like you know was writing the

[2:32:01] book therapeutic and it's like no no

[2:32:04] you're sitting there and writing about

[2:32:06] >> yeah it's

[2:32:07] >> dead children in Armenia like

[2:32:09] >> exorcism

[2:32:10] >> no I don't want to do that you know or

[2:32:11] like it didn't I had sorted through all

[2:32:14] the parental stuff when I went in a

[2:32:16] sobriety like I I you know I did all of

[2:32:18] that

[2:32:19] >> and this was connecting dots. This was

[2:32:22] also using a lifetime as a storyteller

[2:32:26] to adapt my own life which is a strange

[2:32:31] process and but also coming to the

[2:32:34] realization that it did fall into the

[2:32:36] Cambellian circle.

[2:32:38] >> Mhm. Weirdly,

[2:32:40] everything was like, "Oh, oh, oh, up,

[2:32:42] down, up, down. I meet Chewbacca." And

[2:32:44] then I go and find Merlin and here's the

[2:32:47] lady of the lake. And I mean, it was

[2:32:48] like, "Oh, I found out my last name

[2:32:49] isn't my last name. Oh my god, I'm King

[2:32:51] Arthur. Oh, wait, I found the I found

[2:32:53] the grail the second time. Wait, I'm

[2:32:54] Parzival. Oh my god." You know, it was

[2:32:56] like he just [laughter]

[2:32:57] it just goes.

[2:32:59] There's historical precedent for

[2:33:00] everything that I went through

[2:33:02] >> from the conversation I have about

[2:33:04] western dragons versus eastern dragons

[2:33:06] as it relates to my disease. The

[2:33:08] understanding that that I'm being

[2:33:10] introduced to the African Euroba gods of

[2:33:12] my ancestors and becoming the physical

[2:33:16] embodiment of one of them. You I mean it

[2:33:18] was like oh my god like I I wish Joseph

[2:33:21] Campbell was around because I I just I

[2:33:23] want to take him out to lunch and give

[2:33:25] him a hug, you know? Um, but it's um,

[2:33:29] you know, what part of what was

[2:33:32] responsible?

[2:33:33] Well, I don't know. What part of what

[2:33:35] was responsible for me being sick? I

[2:33:37] think a lot of it. And I think that I

[2:33:39] had to confront each piece. I think

[2:33:42] Canteria was responsible for a piece of

[2:33:45] it. I think

[2:33:48] the side quests I was sent on by the

[2:33:51] Greek Orthodox Mother Superior

[2:33:54] was a piece of it. I think Jung is a

[2:33:57] piece. I think Campbell's at peace. I

[2:33:59] think I think

[2:34:03] reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead to

[2:34:05] my friend in a coma and having him pass

[2:34:07] away and that whole experience was a

[2:34:09] piece. I think Hindu ideas about

[2:34:14] choosing your parents or you know what

[2:34:15] goes on before you know I think the band

[2:34:17] Tool is a huge part of it. I think the

[2:34:22] song Parabola that I quote in the book,

[2:34:25] >> it's like, wait, how do they understand

[2:34:28] wait a minute, you know, and um the

[2:34:31] numbers of the universe and

[2:34:34] symbols that get repeated and symbology

[2:34:36] and numerology and all the things that

[2:34:39] they're in. I mean, I think that's a

[2:34:40] piece. I think there's so many

[2:34:43] there's so much information that there

[2:34:46] was such a complex series of knots over

[2:34:48] time that it was like I needed seven

[2:34:52] years to go back and untie every single

[2:34:54] one of them. And on that one August

[2:34:58] morning after seven years of pain and

[2:35:00] suffering,

[2:35:02] I knew I somehow I untied the last knot.

[2:35:06] Well, I shouldn't say that. I still had

[2:35:07] a knot left that that Peter helped me

[2:35:09] untie. there was a real um

[2:35:13] I don't know there's a conversation to

[2:35:15] be had about spirits and um I know I've

[2:35:18] talked we talked about the physical

[2:35:20] scientific proof for for generational

[2:35:22] trauma but

[2:35:25] for my feeble human brain to think of it

[2:35:28] as there are ghosts in your family tree

[2:35:32] in your ancestry that are screaming and

[2:35:36] they wanna they want to be heard and

[2:35:41] they want to be understood and until I

[2:35:46] went through some modicum of the

[2:35:47] suffering that they went through in some

[2:35:50] cases maybe even worse in in one case or

[2:35:53] two or you know but um until I

[2:35:56] understood that how am I supposed to

[2:35:57] tell the story or how am I supposed to

[2:35:58] fully understand

[2:36:00] this and then

[2:36:03] and then now I'm in a position where

[2:36:05] it's like well

[2:36:07] okay why' this happen to me Well, I

[2:36:09] think that's where I'm at now. I'm

[2:36:12] starting to find I'm going to find out.

[2:36:14] You did that podcast. You went and flew

[2:36:16] to Gabbor to talk to him. And then years

[2:36:19] later, here I am. And you help me figure

[2:36:22] out my issues without even knowing that

[2:36:24] that was your path. And [snorts] now I'm

[2:36:26] here and I don't know what happens

[2:36:29] after. I don't know who speaks to me

[2:36:31] after or who I'm passing the baton to or

[2:36:37] you know I I I met so many people

[2:36:38] dealing with so many I mean people are

[2:36:40] coming to me now and being like you know

[2:36:41] can I see Peter can I call I'm like just

[2:36:44] Peter's a reckluse you're not going to

[2:36:45] talk to Peter but it's okay like you can

[2:36:47] talk to me and um

[2:36:50] um it's just about the human experience

[2:36:53] it's like what the hell is going on

[2:36:56] here? Yeah, I think to your point about

[2:36:58] the publisher saying, you know, like

[2:37:00] what are the four ways you're going to

[2:37:01] cure your auto, you know, like wanting

[2:37:03] this like really reductive

[2:37:04] solution-based like how to advice

[2:37:08] spin on this whole thing.

[2:37:10] >> What you're doing rightly is is what we

[2:37:14] learn in the rooms of recovery, which is

[2:37:16] that we're not here to give advice.

[2:37:18] We're here to share share our

[2:37:19] experience, strength, and hope. And like

[2:37:21] this is my story and take from it what

[2:37:24] you need to take from it and interpret

[2:37:26] it as you will through the filter or

[2:37:28] lens of your your

[2:37:30] >> unique set of life experiences and draw

[2:37:34] your conclusions as you will. And it's

[2:37:36] for it's for it's for the reader to

[2:37:39] decide what it means.

[2:37:40] >> Yeah. because you're just like this is

[2:37:42] the story

[2:37:43] >> and and if if

[2:37:45] I have to be rigorously honest about

[2:37:48] this like I am so brutally honest in

[2:37:52] that book and raw because I don't know

[2:37:55] what part of that is going to be the key

[2:37:59] for somebody else. So, you know, there

[2:38:02] were also lots of notes and red lines

[2:38:04] through a lot of the body horror as I

[2:38:06] was writing, you know, from my editor,

[2:38:08] like, do you need to keep talking about

[2:38:11] something popping in the mirror or, you

[2:38:13] know, whatever it all was? And uh,

[2:38:16] >> but it's your willingness to go there

[2:38:18] and and it's a demonstration of the

[2:38:20] degree to which you're willing to be

[2:38:22] honest and open and vulnerable. And

[2:38:24] that's we were talking about this

[2:38:25] earlier like that's what's going to

[2:38:27] really

[2:38:29] >> uh engender trust in the reader and

[2:38:30] create that like connection to your

[2:38:32] story. And the more specific you are

[2:38:35] about the uniqueness of your story, the

[2:38:38] more ironically relatable it is for

[2:38:41] somebody else. It's that same thing. You

[2:38:43] go into you go into a room, one of these

[2:38:45] rooms,

[2:38:46] >> and you and you see somebody get up to

[2:38:48] the podium and you're like, I I have

[2:38:50] nothing in common with this person. And

[2:38:51] they share their story, right? the facts

[2:38:53] of their experience couldn't be more

[2:38:55] different than your own. And you can't

[2:38:57] believe how much you're relating

[2:38:58] >> Yeah.

[2:38:59] >> to the emotional experience of what they

[2:39:02] endured.

[2:39:02] >> Yeah. And I think selfishly or whatever,

[2:39:06] um, you know, I I I lived a closeted

[2:39:09] experience for 10 years. You know, I I

[2:39:12] um I was closeted by the illness in in a

[2:39:15] lot of ways. I I uh there weren't a lot

[2:39:18] of people who knew what was going on

[2:39:19] with me. Definitely not the extent of

[2:39:21] what was going on with me.

[2:39:23] um people that were close to me. Um

[2:39:27] and I I was scared to talk about it and

[2:39:30] I was um I didn't want to be labeled as

[2:39:32] a sick guy. Um,

[2:39:36] you know, also before I got, you know,

[2:39:39] four years of health behind me and lots

[2:39:41] of, you know, healthy, great productions

[2:39:44] back under my belt, you know, I was

[2:39:47] afraid that um that I shouldn't act

[2:39:49] anymore in good conscience or good faith

[2:39:51] because um I was doing something. I was

[2:39:54] trying to get away with something that

[2:39:56] maybe I shouldn't be getting away with.

[2:39:58] And um you know it it was all fine while

[2:40:02] I was fighting through something. I mean

[2:40:05] certainly people act when they're sick.

[2:40:06] People act when they're injured. I mean

[2:40:08] okay. But um I think when the writing

[2:40:11] was on the wall I realized yeah you

[2:40:12] probably you're probably never going to

[2:40:14] do this again. So that all led to me um

[2:40:19] and I think also like some of the things

[2:40:21] that people were saying online and

[2:40:23] people things people were saying in my

[2:40:24] face a lot. um led me to to to not

[2:40:29] really want to be a you know I I every

[2:40:32] conversation I had with small talk for

[2:40:34] like 10 years and it sucked.

[2:40:36] >> And so I think part of the book also and

[2:40:39] the brutal honesty of the book too is

[2:40:41] like

[2:40:43] >> I want people to know who I am. You

[2:40:45] know, I think uh I'm lucky enough that

[2:40:49] that as an artist, as a writer, as an

[2:40:52] actor, I I get paid to explore myself

[2:40:54] and therefore explore the human

[2:40:56] condition. [snorts] And the silver

[2:40:59] lining of all of this was I was given

[2:41:00] the most [ __ ] insane story I've ever

[2:41:02] heard and it's mine. And so I didn't

[2:41:06] want to leave anything

[2:41:08] on the on the floor

[2:41:10] >> uh when it came to this book.

[2:41:13] Is it cathartic for you to share all of

[2:41:16] this today? To get it down on paper, one

[2:41:18] thing, and then to just kind of

[2:41:20] verbalize it.

[2:41:23] >> Yeah, I feel like um

[2:41:26] yeah, I had like

[2:41:29] maybe the first real public conversation

[2:41:33] that I've ever had.

[2:41:37] Um, I certainly,

[2:41:41] you know, after the workout, you you saw

[2:41:46] one of my scars

[2:41:48] and uh

[2:41:51] the camera's rolling and I showed you

[2:41:53] mine, you showed me yours.

[2:41:54] >> Mhm.

[2:41:55] >> And uh that's certainly something that I

[2:41:59] never imagined happening. So, um it's

[2:42:03] just who I am. and uh for better or

[2:42:06] worse. And um

[2:42:12] I I I wanted to I think I wanted to

[2:42:15] avoid the human experience for a long

[2:42:16] time. I I wanted to somehow like

[2:42:19] transcend the human experience and um

[2:42:22] find some kind of golden ticket that

[2:42:23] meant that I wouldn't feel the way that

[2:42:25] I felt my whole life before I found

[2:42:27] alcohol

[2:42:28] and the way that I felt after I had to

[2:42:30] quit and then the way that I felt when I

[2:42:32] was sick and um and and I think at its

[2:42:37] core

[2:42:38] it I'm supposed to have a human

[2:42:41] experience. I'm just supposed to be a

[2:42:43] human being. And um

[2:42:47] and and as an artist that's that's your

[2:42:50] job. Your job isn't to

[2:42:54] your job's not to be a superhero. Your

[2:42:56] job is to be a human being. And um

[2:43:01] you know, I'm okay with that.

[2:43:05] It's an unreal story. It's beautifully

[2:43:08] told in the book. It's incredibly

[2:43:11] powerful.

[2:43:13] Uh, and I appreciate the trust uh that

[2:43:16] you've shown me and and and helping you

[2:43:18] tell it. You know, it's it's I think

[2:43:20] it's going to help a lot of people. Um,

[2:43:24] you're entering a new phase of your life

[2:43:26] where you have the opportunity to be of

[2:43:29] service to so many people.

[2:43:32] um to take everything you've learned in

[2:43:34] recovery and apply that to people that

[2:43:36] don't struggle with substance abuse

[2:43:39] issues but are reckoning with some

[2:43:42] version of what you've endured. Um, and

[2:43:45] so as we kind of wrap this up and close,

[2:43:49] what is the message that you want to put

[2:43:52] out there to the person who's listening

[2:43:55] to this or watching and is in the midst

[2:43:57] of some version of your struggle,

[2:43:59] confused, grappling with despair and

[2:44:02] hopelessness, getting gas lit by the

[2:44:05] medical system, the whole thing. Well,

[2:44:09] some things sometimes the best thing you

[2:44:12] can do is just do nothing. Meaning,

[2:44:16] don't do something drastic.

[2:44:19] Um, I just never gave up. And every time

[2:44:22] I got knocked down, I kept standing back

[2:44:24] up. Um,

[2:44:27] I look at the sacrifice of my great-g

[2:44:29] grandandmother, survived the genocide,

[2:44:31] watched eight of her children murdered

[2:44:33] in front of her, was shot and left for

[2:44:34] dead while the ninth baby was supposed

[2:44:36] to be

[2:44:38] supposed to starve in the crib and uh

[2:44:41] and then drowned in her escape across

[2:44:42] the Euphrates River. She want and uh

[2:44:47] you know and then winds up pregnant in a

[2:44:49] in a camp for survivors

[2:44:52] and uh

[2:44:54] and then comes to America and is married

[2:44:55] off to an abusive man

[2:44:59] and uh and then watch that 10th baby, my

[2:45:02] grandmother, die in in her arms. It's

[2:45:04] like,

[2:45:05] you know, why would you want to go on

[2:45:08] with this whole experiment?

[2:45:11] And

[2:45:14] what I've come to realize is that

[2:45:17] if everything happens all at once and

[2:45:20] you do believe that and time is a

[2:45:23] perception,

[2:45:24] then I'm simultaneously playing my part

[2:45:27] while she's playing hers. And this is

[2:45:31] just, you know, the cross of our family.

[2:45:35] And um

[2:45:38] my job was to make sure that her story

[2:45:41] didn't go unheard and that it wasn't for

[2:45:43] nothing and to fully understand what it

[2:45:47] meant for her sacrifice in order for me

[2:45:49] to be here. And there were moments,

[2:45:51] believe me, where it was dark. There was

[2:45:53] no light whatsoever.

[2:45:56] And

[2:45:59] I didn't see a reason to go on, but

[2:46:01] because of what she went through, I

[2:46:03] realized I can't check out. I'm not

[2:46:04] allowed. If she didn't check out,

[2:46:08] who the hell am I think I can? And you

[2:46:12] know, I I sit here on the other side of

[2:46:14] all of this.

[2:46:18] And I certainly didn't feel this way

[2:46:19] while I was going through it, but now

[2:46:20] that I'm on the other side,

[2:46:24] would I do it again? No. Was it worth

[2:46:26] it? Yes. Yes.

[2:46:30] Um and um yeah, you're right. You know,

[2:46:33] I I I can I I I prayed that if I got

[2:46:37] through this that I would somehow be

[2:46:39] transformed into something more useful,

[2:46:41] something stronger, something wiser. And

[2:46:44] um

[2:46:46] you know, I thought that turning 40

[2:46:49] might have been the halfway mark, but

[2:46:50] maybe 50 is the halfway mark. Maybe I'm

[2:46:52] going to go 100. Yeah,

[2:46:53] >> you never know. I mean, I look better

[2:46:55] than Wilfford Brimley at 50. [laughter]

[2:46:57] >> No offense, but

[2:46:59] >> yeah, that bar is low, but uh yeah, go

[2:47:01] ahead.

[2:47:02] >> You know, so um I might have I might

[2:47:05] have a lot more to go here and

[2:47:09] it was a seven-year cycle. It was it was

[2:47:11] just a bad dream. It was one of one of

[2:47:12] the cycles. And um and I'm through it.

[2:47:14] And now it's it's time to really start

[2:47:16] living my life with purpose. And so I

[2:47:19] would say to people out there,

[2:47:22] I know it's hard to say like give into

[2:47:24] it or what, you know, but like you got

[2:47:26] to go through what you got what you have

[2:47:28] to go through. You have to deal you have

[2:47:30] to play those cards out that you got

[2:47:32] dealt. You don't have any other cards.

[2:47:34] >> And so try to play those cards the best

[2:47:35] as you can. Um for me it would have been

[2:47:38] a relief to be able to check out and

[2:47:40] die, but I didn't. That wasn't for me.

[2:47:44] Um

[2:47:45] but um

[2:47:48] you know here I am on the other side of

[2:47:49] it and life's pretty damn good. I got to

[2:47:53] move back home

[2:47:54] >> living in Pittsburgh.

[2:47:55] >> In Pittsburgh again, you know, the

[2:47:57] entertainment industry kind of moved.

[2:47:59] You got like, you know,

[2:48:00] >> great fiance who loves me.

[2:48:02] >> You got all these projects.

[2:48:04] >> Yeah. Work came back.

[2:48:05] >> One Piece and Yeah. I mean, I found out

[2:48:07] I love game show hosting and writing

[2:48:10] more and I'm a chief creative officer at

[2:48:12] Dungeons and Dragons, which is the job

[2:48:14] that I wanted as a kid, and I get to do

[2:48:16] that and develop product with them. And

[2:48:18] then I have, you know,

[2:48:19] >> we got Bubbles here. Like, we went the

[2:48:21] whole We've gone like three hours

[2:48:23] without

[2:48:24] >> even really addressing the fact that

[2:48:26] we've got we've got Bubbles in the house

[2:48:28] on your lap.

[2:48:30] >> Who's behaved herself beautifully the

[2:48:32] whole time?

[2:48:32] >> Yeah, you did great.

[2:48:33] >> Uh, unreal. this symbiotic uh

[2:48:38] >> like healing relationship that you that

[2:48:41] the two of you have with each other.

[2:48:42] >> Got to save a little dog. I would tell

[2:48:44] people

[2:48:45] >> go get a dog if you're suffering,

[2:48:48] >> you know. Um that's another thing that

[2:48:51] >> got to be of service to this little

[2:48:54] little monster.

[2:48:56] >> There she is. Um

[2:48:57] >> how you doing?

[2:48:58] >> Well, it's been an absolute honor, dude.

[2:49:00] Uh just unbelievable story. So powerful.

[2:49:04] Um, again, I appreciate you. I mean, we

[2:49:07] dude, we we like hung out like an entire

[2:49:09] day. Yeah. Like I I just what a gift

[2:49:11] you've given me and uh and and that

[2:49:13] you're giving to other people. The book

[2:49:14] is

[2:49:15] >> incredible stuff. Bloodlines available

[2:49:18] everywhere.

[2:49:19] >> And I dude, I can't wait to see where

[2:49:21] you're going to take this and and where

[2:49:23] this is going to lead you. It's really a

[2:49:25] remarkable journey. Thanks, man. Thanks

[2:49:27] for having me.

[2:49:28] >> Yeah. Thank you. Peace.

Rich Roll
ArtistRich Roll

Vegan ultra-endurance athlete, podcaster and plant-based wellness advocate who went from rehab and a 50-pound weight gain to finishing the Ultraman World Championships and the EPIC…

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Sobriety-recoveryAutoimmune-diseaseAncestral-traumaSpiritual-healingSanteria

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An autoimmune disease occurs when the immune system attacks the body's own cells and tissues. Manganiello's condition was particularly difficult to diagnose because symptoms can mimic many other illnesses and require extensive testing and specialist consultation. In his case, it took years of searching globally before doctors could stabilize him, though a definitive diagnosis remained elusive.
According to Manganiello, addiction involves a kind of spiritual bleakness—a severing from anything larger than yourself. The 12-step path asks people to reconnect with a 'god of your understanding,' which opens a framework for spiritual inquiry. He describes sobriety as version 2.0 of his life, providing the foundation and openness needed to face even deeper challenges.
Santería is an ancestral spiritual tradition rooted in West African Yoruba and Caribbean practice that honors the orisha—intermediary deities between human and divine. Manganiello turned to it not as exotic tourism but as a genuine exploration of inherited patterns and family trauma, discovering that his genealogy held wisdom about what was manifesting in his body and relationships.
Manganiello's exploration of his Armenian and German ancestry revealed family histories of genocide and displacement. He discovered that trauma can be locked into inherited patterns—passed down through bloodlines and showing up as physical illness, relationship patterns, and spiritual disconnection. His healing journey involved tracing these knots backward to understand what was operating beneath his current life.
Version 1.0 was his life before recovery. Version 2.0 was the spiritual rebirth and rebuilding that came through sobriety. Version 3.0 began when the autoimmune illness forced him into an even deeper odyssey—one that required surrendering to not-knowing, seeking answers across the globe, and ultimately discovering that the illness was a doorway to understanding inherited family patterns and trauma.
He was trained by years of addiction recovery to push through pain and keep moving forward. He believed that purpose, momentum, and work would counteract what was happening inside his body. It wasn't until complete physical collapse that he was forced to surrender—a lesson that doing and driving your way through everything isn't always the answer.
Manganiello's illness is managed but not resolved by a traditional cure. What shifted instead was his relationship to the experience itself—moving from 'Why is this happening to me?' to 'What is this showing me?' His healing involved genealogical exploration, ancestral spiritual work, and integrating the wisdom hidden in his family line.

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