Transcript
[0:00] In this episode of MarieTV we do have some
adult language.
[0:03] So if you have little ones around, grab your
headphones now.
[0:09] Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching
MarieTV, the place to be to create a business
[0:21] and life you love.
[0:22] If you have something inside of you that you
want to bring to life, whether you want to
[0:27] write it, you want to bake it, you want to
draw it, dance it, or paint it, you are in
[0:32] for a real treat.
[0:34] Today we’re talking about what it takes
to live a truly creative life and my guest
[0:40] is really the person to show us how.
[0:43] Elizabeth Gilbert is the number one New York
Times bestselling author of Eat, Pray, Love
[0:48] and several other internationally bestselling
books of fiction and nonfiction.
[0:53] Gilbert began her career writing for Harper’s
Bazaar, Spin, The New York Times Magazine,
[0:59] and GQ, and was a 3 time finalist for the
National Magazine Award.
[1:04] The follow up memoir, Committed, became an
instant number one New York Times bestseller.
[1:09] Her latest novel, The Signature of All Things,
was named a best book of 2013 by The New York
[1:14] Times, O Magazine, The Washington Post, The
Chicago Tribune, and The New Yorker.
[1:21] Elizabeth’s latest book, Big Magic: Creative
Living Beyond Fear, which tackles the elusive
[1:27] mystery of creativity, is now available wherever
books are sold.
[1:32] Liz, thank you so much for taking the time
to be here.
[1:35] My pleasure, I love being here.
[1:37] So Big Magic is your new book and, I have
to tell you, it’s so genius.
[1:43] When I got this… this little copy below
here that I actually have all flagged up and
[1:46] it’s kind of ratty…
[1:47] Oh, I love seeing flags coming out of books.
[1:49] Flags.
[1:50] So, I have to tell you that I didn't want
this book to be over so I slowed myself down
[1:57] and I would savor it just like you would savor
a good meal and I was so excited to have you
[2:02] on today because it’s brilliant and I feel
like it’s one of these books that I will
[2:06] keep going back to again and again and again.
[2:08] So I wanna start by asking you what was the
big magic that inspired Big Magic?
[2:14] What inspired you to write this?
[2:15] Wow.
[2:16] You know what it is?
[2:17] It’s a response to years of being out in
public talking to people who tell me about
[2:23] the projects they want to be making and are
not making, the things they want to be doing
[2:27] and are not doing.
[2:28] You know what I mean?
[2:29] And often times when I’m in public I meet
people who are making and doing really cool
[2:31] things and they wanna tell me about it, but
mostly it’s people who aren’t.
[2:36] And when they come to me with their problems
about creativity or their struggles with creativity
[2:41] because they know I love to talk about creativity,
I find that they always have some sort of
[2:46] very rational, reasonable kind of material
real… real world reason why they’re not
[2:51] doing it that they can lay out as an explanation.
[2:54] But when you start to scratch away at that,
what’s underneath it is always and only
[3:00] fear.
[3:01] Yes.
[3:02] Always and only fear.
[3:03] I don't care what the excuses or the rationalization
or the justification for why they’re not
[3:10] doing the thing that’s calling to them,
at the bottom of it they’re afraid.
[3:13] They’re afraid they don't have the talent,
they’re afraid they don't have the right,
[3:16] they’re afraid it’s already been done
better, they’re afraid they’ll be rejected
[3:19] or insulted or criticized or, worse, ignored.
[3:22] They’re afraid there’s no point, they’re
afraid…
[3:25] you know, they just have these, like, tumbling
piles of fear.
[3:29] And I see it so much and I hear the same questions
again and again that I finally just thought,
[3:34] “Well, let’s officially talk about this.”
[3:36] Yes.
[3:37] You know?
[3:38] Like, let’s actually really break this down
and try to figure out how people can live
[3:41] more creative lives without being so scared.
[3:44] One of the things you say about fear in the
book is that fear is like a necessary companion.
[3:48] Yeah.
[3:49] And I loved that because I feel like in the
world of personal development and sometimes
[3:52] in spirituality in certain circles, you know,
you wanna push through your fear, get over
[3:57] your fear.
[3:58] Punch it in the face!
[3:59] Punch it in the face, dude!
[4:00] Yeah.
[4:01] Or kick it or whatever.
[4:02] Yeah.
[4:03] Or we, you know, just demonize it…
[4:04] Right.
[4:05] ...in this way and I was wondering if you
could speak to this idea of fear as a companion.
[4:07] Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I have no desire
to become a fearless person because the only
[4:13] genuinely fearless human beings I’ve ever
met were psychopaths or toddlers.
[4:18] You know?
[4:19] Like… and neither one of those things is
interesting for me to model my life after
[4:23] because there’s something missing from that
person…
[4:26] Yes.
[4:27] ...that’s very essential and you see it
in the kind of, like, weird eyes.
[4:30] You’re like, “Wow, you are a dangerous
human being to yourself and others and I don't
[4:36] wanna be anywhere near you.”
[4:37] And so I’m not interested in fearlessness.
[4:39] Somebody said to me the other day, “Tell
us how you conquered fear,” and I was like,
[4:43] “I… it’s adorable that you think I conquered…”
[4:45] Did you read the book?
[4:47] Yeah, that’s also…
[4:48] I’m afraid right this minute.
[4:49] I’m afraid, like, almost every minute of
my life.
[4:51] So I haven’t conquered it and I’m not
interested in conquering it.
[4:54] Actually, what my relationship with fear begins
with is a tremendous amount of respect and
[4:58] appreciation because fear is the reason I
am still alive today.
[5:02] It’s the reason you’re still alive today.
[5:04] Every single one of us can point to a moment
in our lives that we survived because we were
[5:08] afraid.
[5:09] Because they said... the thing, the voices
said, “Get out of that ocean, the waves
[5:13] are too big.”
[5:14] You know, “This car is going too fast.”
[5:16] “Don't get into the apartment with that
guy.”
[5:18] “This street is not safe to walk down.”
[5:20] All of us are here because our fear is constantly
protecting us, that’s its job and it does
[5:26] its job beautifully.
[5:27] It’s just that it’s all jacked up on Red
Bull and it’s really trigger happy and it
[5:31] doesn't know the difference between a genuinely
dangerous situation and just a little bit
[5:36] of a nervy situation.
[5:37] You know?
[5:38] So whenever I feel fear arise, which is constantly
because I’m always trying to do creative
[5:42] things and creativity will always provoke
your fear because it asks you to enter into
[5:47] a realm with an uncertain outcome, and fear
hates that.
[5:49] It thinks you’re gonna die.
[5:51] So any time I start a new creative project
the fear rises and the first thing I do is
[5:55] say to it, “Thank you so much for how much
you care about me and how much you don't want
[5:59] anything bad to happen to me, and I really
appreciate that.
[6:02] Your services are probably not needed here
because I’m just writing a poem.
[6:05] Like, no one’s gonna die.
[6:08] No one’s gonna die, it’s ok.”
[6:10] You know, and I just talk to it but in this
really friendly way and I don't go to war
[6:14] against it, I acknowledge its importance,
and then I invite it along.
[6:18] I’m like, “You can come with me, but I’m
doing this thing.”
[6:20] Yeah.
[6:21] You know?
[6:22] I loved the metaphor that you shared.
[6:23] Yeah.
[6:24] It’s like fear is gonna be in the car…
[6:25] Yeah.
[6:26] ...but it’s gonna be in the backseat…
[6:27] Yeah.
[6:28] ...and it’s not gonna drive.
[6:29] Or choose the snacks or hold the map or touch
the radio.
[6:31] Like, fear doesn't get to make any decisions
in creative ventures because frankly, with
[6:36] all due respect to Grandfather Fear, it simply
doesn't understand what creativity even is
[6:41] because that’s a newer part of our brain,
so it doesn't even know what’s going on.
[6:45] So you can’t let it have any control over
your creative choices or else it will shut
[6:49] them down one idea after another.
[6:51] It’ll just be like, “Nope, don't do that.
[6:54] Nope, too risky.
[6:55] Nope.”
[6:56] And it’ll just be one no after another and
your life will be so much smaller than you
[7:00] want your life to be.
[7:02] One of the things I love that you shared,
which I feel is a big subset of fear, is this
[7:07] idea it’s all been done before.
[7:09] I think it’s the thing that I hear the most
both in my own brain…
[7:13] Right.
[7:14] ...and when I talk to everyone out in the
world…
[7:16] Yeah.
[7:17] ...about their ideas or their businesses or
their projects, there’s this recurring narrative
[7:21] everything’s been done before.
[7:22] And I was wondering if you can speak to originality
vs. authenticity.
[7:25] Ok, cool.
[7:26] I’m glad you brought this up.
[7:29] So whenever I talk to somebody who has an
idea that they’re tremulously excited about,
[7:34] generally speaking within the next 2 minutes
they will say, “But, you know, it’s not
[7:38] very original.
[7:39] It’s already been done.”
[7:40] And I always say, “But it has not yet been
done by you.”
[7:45] It has not yet been done by you.
[7:46] And the answer is, yeah, guaranteed it’s
already been done because humans are really
[7:51] inventive and inquisitive and creative and
we’ve had 40 thousand years of the arts
[7:55] and pretty much everything has been done.
[7:57] You know?
[7:58] And that’s fine.
[7:59] Like, even Shakespeare, half of his stories
he totally stole from older stories because
[8:03] there aren’t that many new stories to tell.
[8:05] But he told them in a way that had never been
told before and then 500 years later we’re
[8:10] still borrowing them from him.
[8:11] We’re all just borrowing from each other.
[8:13] And even the most original piece of creativity
that you ever saw in your life where you were
[8:18] like, “That’s groundbreaking, I’ve never
seen anything like that before,” guaranteed
[8:21] I could bring in, like, 10 professors and
academics who could look at it and say, “Well,
[8:25] obviously this is somebody who had read this
book or they had heard this symphony or they
[8:29] had… they were playing off of this or they
were rejecting that.
[8:32] They’re responding.”
[8:33] All we do as humans is respond to stuff that’s
already come before us.
[8:37] But you’re allowed to add to the pile.
[8:39] You’re allowed to add to the pile and what
I always say is whenever I look at art that’s
[8:45] really original, I feel like I can admire
it but it doesn't move me.
[8:49] What moves me is the humanity in an authentic
piece of creation where somebody was doing
[8:54] something, whatever it was, because they had
to, because they wanted to, because it brought
[8:58] them to life, because it ignited their soul.
[9:01] That’s what gives the shimmer of gold to
something and makes me feel like my heart’s
[9:06] been changed, my mind’s been changed, the
world looks different than it did before.
[9:10] So I don't care if it's been done.
[9:12] I don't care if it’s been done 10 thousand
times.
[9:14] If you need to do it, do it.
[9:16] You know, there’s 2 things I want to comment
on.
[9:18] One, have you checked out Everything is a
Remix?
[9:20] No.
[9:21] Oh, I can’t… ok, so I’m gonna email
you on this.
[9:22] You’re gonna love it.
[9:23] It speaks to this idea and it traces back…
[9:26] Oh, that is a great shorthand for everything
I just said.
[9:28] Yeah.
[9:29] But it’s brilliant and I think you’re
gonna love it.
[9:30] But it… it really is true and I think there’s
so much relief that we can feel in that.
[9:34] Yeah.
[9:35] I know in my own creative life…
[9:37] Right.
[9:38] ...the pressure, you know, to keep creating
and to keep pushing those edges and those
[9:41] boundaries and growth and doing something
innovative and new and you can start to make
[9:45] yourself crazy.
[9:46] There's so many ways to make yourself crazy.
[9:47] Right.
[9:48] And that’s number nine on the list.
[9:49] But, yeah, exactly.
[9:50] And… but the second thing that you tipped
off for me was something else in the book
[9:54] that I absolutely loved and it was a real
lightbulb moment.
[9:57] I want to thank you for writing it.
[9:59] It was about really examining your motivations.
[10:01] Right.
[10:02] And, you know, if you want to help people…
and this was interesting for me.
[10:05] And it’s like, you know, you want to write
a book to help me.
[10:08] Please, don't.
[10:09] Please don't help me.
[10:10] Please don't help me.
[10:11] But this idea of creating because it brings
you joy.
[10:14] Right, right.
[10:15] Exactly.
[10:16] I mean, I think when you’re a good person
and you’re a giving person and you’re
[10:20] a person of humanity, then of course when
you set out to do something you think, “Well,
[10:24] I probably shouldn’t do this unless it will
serve.”
[10:27] Right?
[10:28] Because that’s… because we’re good people.
[10:29] Yes.
[10:30] And we’re raised to believe that.
[10:31] I love this quote by this British newspaper
editor who said, “You can always tell people
[10:37] who live for others by the anguished expressions
on the faces of the others.”
[10:41] You know?
[10:43] You’re just like, “Oh, God.
[10:44] Here she comes with her really good intentions.
[10:46] Like, I just feel like… like please don't.”
[10:50] You know?
[10:51] Yes.
[10:52] And… and also it’s a heavy mandate for
something that should be the lightest thing
[10:58] in your life, which is how you express your
own creativity.
[11:01] I love helping people.
[11:02] I think there are much more efficient ways
for me to do it.
[11:05] Like, I give money to good organizations and
I vote and I volunteer and I do all of that
[11:09] kind of stuff.
[11:10] My art though is mine.
[11:12] And even the art that I make that ends up
helping people like, you know, Eat, Pray,
[11:16] Love, for instance.
[11:17] People will say, “Thank you so much for
your book.
[11:18] It really helped me, it changed me.”
[11:21] I didn't sit down to write that book saying,
“It’s high time I changed people’s lives.”
[11:25] You know?
[11:26] Like, I was such a hot mess at that point
in my life, like, I could barely tie my own
[11:32] shoes at that moment.
[11:33] Like, the last thing I had any business doing
was being like, “And now, people, let me
[11:39] give you the answers.”
[11:40] You know, it… that book was about me just
looking for grace and looking for resurrection
[11:46] in my own life.
[11:47] And then accidentally, because I followed
my own curiosity, trusted my creativity, made
[11:52] the work I wanted to make, I accidentally
ended up helping people.
[11:55] That’s a side effect that can… that can
happen in the end.
[11:59] And I have a quote in the book from this wonderful
German theologian who said, “All love eventually
[12:04] becomes help.”
[12:06] All love eventually becomes help.
[12:08] So if you wanna help, just love.
[12:11] Just love what you’re doing, love who you’re
with, make sure that you love where you’re
[12:15] living, love… whatever the thing is that
you love, you’ll start to sort of radiate
[12:19] this thing that people will want to be near
and it’ll make them better and that’s
[12:24] the very kindest thing that you could possibly
do for your community.
[12:29] It is not Sunday, but we are preaching right
now.
[12:31] It’s Sunday every day.
[12:32] Amen to all of that.
[12:34] So I remember reading this particular part
of Big Magic out loud and I cheered and I
[12:40] laughed and I did my Jersey fist pump, right,
all the way.
[12:44] Jersey in the house doubled up here today.
[12:46] Jersey, seriously.
[12:47] And so when I read shit sandwiches and day
jobs.
[12:50] Ok, so I need to say this, I believe that
those two… first of all, I think the book
[12:55] is required reading for every human, but…
but those two in particular.
[13:00] Thank you.
[13:01] You’re so welcome.
[13:02] Is… they’re so vital for anyone trying
to do anything, but especially if they have
[13:08] entrepreneurial aspirations.
[13:09] Right.
[13:10] You know, they wanna be a writer, they wanna
be a dancer.
[13:12] Anything.
[13:13] Wanna start a business, wanna…
[13:14] Yes.
[13:15] So if we could start with the fact, and I
loved this because this is my mentality and
[13:20] how I…
[13:21] I was like, “She gave words to it.
[13:22] I love it.”
[13:23] That finding your true purpose is really about
deciding which flavor of shit sandwich you’re
[13:28] really in for.
[13:29] Love that.
[13:30] Well, this is…
[13:32] I wish it were my idea.
[13:33] It’s not my idea.
[13:34] I borrowed it but I will lay it out here anyway.
[13:36] Yes.
[13:37] The idea is that every pursuit, no matter
how glamorous it may seem, no matter how exciting
[13:42] you are… it feels to you, no matter how
much you feel like you were born to do it,
[13:46] comes with a shit sandwich.
[13:48] And so the question is not, “What do I love?”
[13:51] The question is, “What do I love so much
that I don't mind eating the shit sandwich
[13:54] that comes along with that thing?”
[13:56] So for me in my life writing is the thing
that I love and the shit sandwich was the
[14:01] 7 years that I was not getting published and
that I was coming home from my job as a diner
[14:06] waitress, as a bartender, as an au pair, as
a… somebody who worked in flea markets,
[14:10] as a cook, and I was coming home tired and
smelling like other people's french fries,
[14:14] and sitting down and doing my real job, which
was to write.
[14:17] And then to go to the mailbox the next day
and get another rejection letter.
[14:22] And then say, “Do I still wanna do this?
[14:24] Because this shit sandwich sucks.”
[14:25] Am I ready to take another bite?
[14:28] You know?
[14:29] And I did still wanna do it and now even as
somebody who makes their living as a writer,
[14:33] there’s no end to the shit sandwiches.
[14:35] It’s like, “Um, oh, hello horrible review
in prominent newspaper.
[14:39] That’s your shit sandwich today, Liz.
[14:41] You still wanna do this work?”
[14:42] Yup.
[14:43] Yeah, I still do.
[14:44] Still worth it.
[14:45] Like, hello awful comment on social media
from somebody who thinks you’re a pile of
[14:50] dog shit.
[14:51] You know?
[14:52] And just has, like, chosen every possible
way that they can just cannot get it out of
[14:57] their system fast enough how much disregard
they have for your entire life.
[15:00] Yup.
[15:01] Still wanna do this thing?
[15:02] Yeah, I still wanna do it.
[15:03] You know, so that’s the question.
[15:05] Because if the first time you encounter the
shit sandwich you’re like, “Well, this…
[15:09] this isn’t worth it,” then that’s not
the thing you’re supposed to be doing.
[15:13] Yes.
[15:14] And there are plenty of things in life that…
that I have run into the shit sandwich and
[15:16] I’ve been like, “So not worth it.
[15:20] So not worth it.
[15:21] Like, this is not…
[15:22] I don't wanna do this.
[15:23] Like, whatever the ben… alleged benefits
of this thing might be, no.”
[15:25] I’m not down…
[15:26] Soulcycle.
[15:27] No.
[15:28] You know?
[15:29] Like, I know it’s probably really good for
me but I feel like throwing up right now because
[15:33] this is too hard.
[15:34] I’m out.
[15:35] I’m… you’ll not be seeing me here again.
[15:36] You know?
[15:37] Like… and I love my sisters at Soulcycle,
I just don't like feeling like I’m gonna
[15:40] throw up when I exercise.
[15:42] So it’s not for me.
[15:43] Yeah.
[15:44] You know?
[15:45] And… and so that’s the question.
[15:46] So if you go into this thing thinking, “If
I follow my bliss and I live my dream and
[15:51] I stand in my truth, then everything will
be great,” it doesn't mean everything will
[15:56] be great.
[15:56] It just means at the end of the day when you
check in with yourself and you go, “In the
[16:01] end, on the balance, is this still better
than not doing it?”
[16:06] And the answer is still yeah, this thing is
still better than not doing it, then you’re
[16:09] on the right path.
[16:11] I can’t tell you how many people will think
that, you know, what we’re shooting here,
[16:14] and there’s lights and I have a blowout
and, you know…
[16:17] Yeah.
[16:18] It’s like I don't do this every day.
[16:19] Like, so much work goes into what those little
blips of…
[16:22] Yeah.
[16:23] And the rest of the time there's a lot of
shit sandwiches on the table.
[16:27] There’s a lot of shit…
[16:30] There’s a lot, they’re lined up like Jersey
subs.
[16:31] Yeah.
[16:32] I had a friend that I speak about in the book
when I was in my 20s who was, I still believe,
[16:34] a far better writer than I was.
[16:37] Far better and far more naturally talented
than me.
[16:41] And just got so enraged that the same thing
was happening to him as was happening to me,
[16:45] which was nothing.
[16:46] You know?
[16:47] It’s like you’re doing this work and you’re
getting absolutely nothing out of it.
[16:50] And I just remember the day where he was like,
“I’m done.”
[16:54] And my sense, honestly, that day was like
I was looking at his half eaten shit sandwich
[16:58] and I was like, “Are you gonna finish that,
dude?
[17:01] Because I’ll eat it.
[17:02] Because I, like, I’ll finish your half eaten…”
[17:05] like, to stay in this game, that’s how much
I love this.
[17:08] Yes.
[17:09] And… and so that’s a really important,
fundamental question and I think a really
[17:11] realistic one.
[17:12] I think it’s genius.
[17:14] And, you know, the other portion about day
jobs.
[17:17] This is something, so when I…
[17:18] Right.
[17:19] ...first started, I started a life coaching
business when I was 23.
[17:21] I don't know what I was thinking, but I bartended
and waited tables and taught fitness and did
[17:26] everything I could to not be desperate during
the day so I could figure out my craft.
[17:31] Right.
[17:32] So I could write content, so I could not be
desperate as a life coach, because what other
[17:35] more depressing thing in life is there?
[17:37] You have to pay me!
[17:39] I’m your life coach and I’m losing my
house!
[17:42] So…
[17:43] It’s not working!
[17:44] It’s not… nothing’s working!
[17:45] But…
[17:46] Yeah, that’s not very… that doesn't instill
confidence in your clients.
[17:49] No, right?
[17:50] It’s really not like living your best life.
[17:51] And so anyway, I love this because, you know,
I had day jobs for 7 years before my creative
[17:59] life could support me and sustain me financially.
[18:00] And frankly, I wasn’t sure at the beginning
it ever would.
[18:03] Right.
[18:04] You know, I didn't know if that was going
to happen.
[18:05] Right.
[18:06] And so I’d love to hear you talk about your
take on this because it’s one of the things
[18:10] where people have these ideas.
[18:12] And there are some people, there are unicorns
that say, “I’m going to do this and I’m
[18:17] burning the bridge behind me,” and they
put… and I honor those people.
[18:20] Right.
[18:21] But what I’ve seen over time is they’re
usually more the exception than the rule.
[18:25] Right.
[18:26] Look, if that’s how you have to do it…
[18:29] Yes.
[18:30] ...if you can’t feel like you're alive unless
you’re burning bridges behind you, light
[18:34] the match, walk away, that’s…
[18:35] Fire it up.
[18:36] ...that’s your deal.
[18:37] Yeah.
[18:38] That’s not the contract that I’ve ever
had with my creativity because for me, you
[18:41] know, we live in this sort of bumper sticker
world where the two bumper stickers that I
[18:46] always want to edit are the… with, like,
a Sharpie in the parking lot.
[18:51] There’s the one that says, “Jump and the
net will catch you,” and there’s the one
[18:54] that said, “What would you do if you knew
you could not fail?”
[18:56] Right?
[18:58] So the edits I want to make are, “Jump and
the net might catch you,” and, “What would
[19:02] you do even if failure wasn’t even, like,
a word that you were caring about?” which
[19:07] is a long edit and makes for a terrible bumper
sticker.
[19:09] But what I’m getting at is I don't like
the… the sort of…
[19:15] I don't like the ethic that says if you try
really hard and you… and you put everything
[19:20] into it, you’re gonna get everything that
you want.
[19:23] Because we’re all grownups here, so can
we just say that that may or may not happen?
[19:29] You may or may not get everything that you
want.
[19:32] You might put everything into something and
it doesn't work, and that’s ok, if you didn’t
[19:39] mortgage your house, risk your family, like,
empty out your IRA, and just put yourself
[19:44] in a really precarious situation such that
you can never do it again.
[19:48] Right.
[19:49] Right?
[19:50] That’s the other thing.
[19:51] Such that you’ve been so battered by how
you set up your life so that now you’re
[19:54] so cornered and strapped and anxious and shamed
that you just say, “Well, if that’s what
[20:00] it feels like to give 100% to something, you
can keep it.
[20:04] I’m gonna take nothing but safe choices
for the rest of my life,” and that’s it
[20:06] and you just shut down.
[20:07] Right?
[20:08] I never wanna see somebody put in that situation.
[20:10] So the contract that I made with writing when
I was 15 years old and I lit my candle and
[20:15] made my deal with the universe and said, “I’m
gonna be a writer for the rest of my life,”
[20:20] one of the promises that I made to the work
was I will never ask you to support me financially.
[20:25] I will support both of us.
[20:26] I’m a resourceful person, my parents raised
me to be a worker.
[20:30] I will do whatever I have to do to pay the
rent and you and I will have a love affair
[20:36] on the side of this that is not contingent
upon monetization.
[20:40] And I have watched so many creative people
murder their creativity by insisting that
[20:45] they are not truly creative unless their creativity
pays the bills.
[20:49] And if it doesn't pay the bills, which it
might or might not, or it might for a while
[20:52] and then it might not.
[20:53] You might go out of fashion, your thing might
change, people might not want that anymore
[20:57] and all of a sudden you’re stuck.
[20:59] And I see those people go into depression,
bitterness, rage, resentment.
[21:07] You have to be child like in the pursuit of
your life, but you cannot be childish.
[21:14] And this is a really big difference.
[21:16] Childlike means walking into the world with
wide open wonder and being open and letting
[21:20] go of bitterness and ready to be amazed, ready
to be taught, ready for everything to be new.
[21:28] That’s childlike.
[21:29] Childish means I want it and I should have
it and I don't…
[21:32] I don't like the way this turned out, it’s
not fair, I’m gonna have a temper tantrum
[21:36] now, nothing ever goes my way, I didn't grow
up in the right family, I don't have the right
[21:41] tools, I didn't get to go to the right school,
nobody likes me, I quit.
[21:46] And… and just because I want it, I should
have it.
[21:49] That’s childish.
[21:50] Yeah.
[21:51] So you have to separate those things out.
[21:53] I believe you can be childlike and mature
at the same time.
[21:56] And mature means looking after yourself in
the real world in a real way.
[22:00] Yes.
[22:01] You know, I love this conversation because
I feel like it’s not had enough and there’s
[22:05] so much, like, flag waving.
[22:06] “You can do it!
[22:07] Good job!
[22:08] Whatever!”
[22:09] “Take the risk!”
[22:10] And I’m like, you know, I grew up in a very
financially conservative…
[22:12] my parents didn't have a lot of money at all.
[22:13] My mom could, like, take a dollar bill and,
you know, stretch it for so long.
[22:17] I would love to put your mom and my mom in
a dollar bill stretching contest and just
[22:21] see what they could do with it.
[22:23] But I’m so thankful.
[22:24] Me too.
[22:25] So thankful for that.
[22:26] Me too.
[22:27] Because it’s guided and inspired and informed
so many smart choices that I’ve made…
[22:30] Yeah.
[22:31] ...that haven’t necessarily been easy but
they’ve made all the difference over the
[22:34] long term.
[22:35] Yeah.
[22:36] I wanna shift gears and ask you something
a little different for a moment if you’re…
[22:39] if you’re open to it.
[22:40] So I wanna talk a little bit about your process
as a speaker.
[22:43] Ok.
[22:44] Because myself, like, tens of millions of
people have seen your TED talks but I also
[22:49] had the great pleasure to see you in I guess
Newark, New Jersey?
[22:54] Oh, at the Oprah thing.
[22:56] Oh, man.
[22:57] Myself and…
[22:58] Elizabeth Gilbert!
[22:59] That’s my fake… that’s what I do when
I get up in the morning, I try to imagine
[23:02] Oprah introducing me.
[23:03] We just need to record it.
[23:06] When I get out of the shower.
[23:08] Can you just record it and put it on your
iPhone so we have that?
[23:10] But you were absolutely…
[23:11] you were spectacular and I…
[23:12] Oh, you’re so kind to say so.
[23:13] Thank you.
[23:14] It’s the truth and I was with my dear friend
Kris Carr and we were both sitting there and
[23:18] we…
[23:19] we had loved you before, but we both looked
at each other and were like, “Damn!
[23:23] She just took it away.”
[23:26] So my question for you is, a few questions
if I may.
[23:31] Yeah.
[23:32] One, was that process of becoming a speaker
as a writer, did it feel natural to you?
[23:36] Like, did you have to go, “Ok, I have to
figure this out now.”
[23:39] Or did it…?
[23:40] Right.
[23:41] Yeah.
[23:42] What was that like?
[23:43] I’m first a writer, second a speaker.
[23:45] Writing is easier for me and I’m sort of
more at home there.
[23:52] Writing is probably…
[23:53] like, when I’m sitting down writing even
if it’s not going well, that is the place
[23:56] in the world where I feel like I am the least
full of shit.
[23:58] You know what I mean?
[23:59] Like, that most authentic version of yourself
where you’re not selling anything, you’re
[24:03] not trying anything, you’re not putting
anything on, you’re just sitting in your
[24:07] truth of who you are.
[24:08] That’s what I feel like when I’m writing.
[24:10] Speaking, you are selling something in a way
because you… it’s this very different
[24:16] kind of way of interacting and so I’ve really
had to learn how to do it.
[24:20] And…
[24:21] like, for instance, the first time when Eat,
Pray, Love first came out, the first time
[24:25] somebody had me give a speech, I had a speech
on a piece of paper and I went and read it
[24:29] at a podium because I didn't know.
[24:31] Yeah.
[24:32] You know?
[24:33] And I stood there and I read those words that
I wrote and I turned the page and every once
[24:36] in awhile I looked up and…
[24:37] As you do.
[24:39] As you do.
[24:40] And it was… that’s a way that you can
give a speech, but even as I was doing it
[24:43] I was thinking, “Oh, this isn’t how you
do this because nobody wants to sit in a chair
[24:48] and be read to for 40 minutes.
[24:50] So you don't get to do it this way anymore.”
[24:52] You know?
[24:53] “You’re gonna have to find a way to be
here the whole time, because they don't wanna
[24:56] see the top of your head.”
[24:58] Yeah.
[24:59] “And they want something else.”
[25:01] Right?
[25:02] So that was the beginning of changing it.
[25:03] And then I started to work with being sort
of lighter with it and kind of giving myself
[25:06] an outline and then just sort of telling stories
rather than reading them because it’s a…
[25:11] it’s a whole different kind of thing.
[25:12] Yeah, I was gonna say, do you mind if we hang
out here for a minute?
[25:15] No, no.
[25:16] I’m happy to.
[25:17] Because when I heard you speak it was as though
I was… when I say this, I mean, your sentences,
[25:21] I was like, that’s literally what had Kris
and I like, “Woah.”
[25:25] They were amazing.
[25:26] And I was like, “I wonder if she scripted
it,” not in a… but because I know you
[25:30] cherish your words.
[25:31] Yeah.
[25:32] And I’m a person who loves words and so,
you know, as… as a person who is always
[25:36] looking at how do people do what they do,
it was… it was a curiosity point for me
[25:40] because you did it exquisitely.
[25:42] Well, you’re very kind and I will tell you
this, when Oprah Winfrey invites you to speak
[25:46] at a stadium tour, you prepare.
[25:49] Yes.
[25:50] And I worked on that speech for 6 months and
what you heard me saying…
[25:54] Yes.
[25:55] ...was memorized.
[25:56] Well, but…
[25:57] That was me just reading a poem that was memorized
in my whole…
[26:00] at 45, 50 minutes was just a memorized piece
of paper.
[26:04] But I want you to hear this from an audience
member, like, you were so connected and that's
[26:10] why I wanted to ask you about this because
your presence and your delivery and, again,
[26:15] as someone…
[26:16] we just watch, I observe so many things of
like, she was so in it.
[26:19] And I…
[26:20] I could feel in my cells and in my bones,
I was like, “That took a tremendous amount
[26:24] of work.”
[26:25] It’s a huge amount of work.
[26:26] A huge amount of work.
[26:27] I was walking.
[26:28] The only way I can learn a speech is to walk
it into my bones, so I was walking, like,
[26:33] 5 miles a day on the side of the road giving
that speech for 4 months.
[26:38] You know, like, that’s how much I put into
it.
[26:41] And the other thing is, I had this really
incredible moment the day before the first
[26:45] one of those, because it was an 8 city tour.
[26:47] Yes.
[26:48] And it’s scary, it’s Oprah Winfrey.
[26:49] She’s sitting in the front row.
[26:50] Like, I invited you, I trusted you with my
audience, who trusts me with their lives.
[26:53] Go ahead.
[26:54] What do you got?
[26:55] And you’re like…
[26:56] 20 thousand people.
[26:57] Yeah.
[26:58] I’m not used to speaking to.
[26:59] I mean, who is?
[27:00] Like, a place where, like, Bon Jovi plays.
[27:01] You know?
[27:02] Yeah.
[27:03] So… so for me there’s this great thing,
there’s this great sense of this doubt of
[27:08] am I worthy, do I belong here.
[27:12] And I was backstage about 15 minutes before
I went on physically shaking.
[27:17] And… and then I had this thought where I
thought, “You know what, Liz?
[27:21] They don't need your fear, because they have
their own.
[27:25] Like, that is the one thing they don't need.
[27:28] Because they have… everyone who’s in that
audience has all the fear they’re ever gonna
[27:32] need.
[27:33] So you’re not gonna… if you bring them
your fear, you’re bringing them, like, it’s
[27:37] coals to Newcastle.”
[27:38] Yes.
[27:39] “Ice to eskimos.
[27:40] That they have.
[27:41] They don't need your insecurity.
[27:42] Again, they’ve got it covered.
[27:44] They don't need your sense of low self worth,
they don't need your questioning of whether
[27:47] you belong.
[27:49] Believe me, they know those feelings.
[27:51] Here’s what…
[27:52] here’s what you got hired to do today.
[27:54] Is to model to them dignity and composure
and grace and female autonomy.
[28:01] So they need you to come out and stand in
your female body on that stage in front of
[28:07] 25 thousand people with an unshaking voice
and speak about courage, because that’s
[28:12] what they came here for.
[28:13] And if you bring them anything less than that,
you’re doing a tremendous disservice.”
[28:17] And there are times in our lives where we
do serve by showing our vulnerability and
[28:22] our fear.
[28:23] Not that day.
[28:25] Not that day.
[28:26] Like, that’s it.
[28:27] And I was like, “Oprah Winfrey is the person
in the world you admire the most, she thinks
[28:30] you can do this, she’s not an idiot.
[28:33] Do it.”
[28:34] You know?
[28:35] And bring them what they don't have.
[28:37] Don't bring them what they already have.
[28:39] Well, can I tell you, you did it.
[28:41] Thank you.
[28:42] And you brought it, like, to the nth power.
[28:44] Thank you.
[28:45] It was absolutely genius.
[28:46] And thank you for just sharing the behind
the scenes because I feel like that’s another
[28:50] piece of the puzzle where you can see someone
and people can see you or they’ll see the
[28:54] show and they have these ideas that it’s
so easy.
[28:58] “Oh, she’s a really good speaker.”
[29:00] “Yeah, she’s really good.
[29:01] She probably, you know, just made that up
like the past week or whatever.”
[29:02] Yeah.
[29:03] And most often I find that that’s not true,
that folks out there who are thinking about
[29:07] their own dreams or thinking about upleveling
a skill or stretching themselves into a new
[29:12] zone, you know, it’s so incredibly generous
of you to be able to share that because it
[29:16] gives people like, “Oh, ok.
[29:18] Liz felt that.”
[29:19] I wish there was a shortcut to all of it.
[29:22] Like, every single thing that’s of value
that I’ve ever experienced in my life, I’m
[29:27] always looking for the how to hotwire it.
[29:29] Like, there’s gotta be a way to do this
without…
[29:32] nah.
[29:33] None of it.
[29:34] Spiritual growth, personal growth, relationships,
physical health.
[29:38] Like, there’s not one single piece of it
where you're like, “There’s a way to…
[29:44] there’s a way to get to the top of this
without actually putting anything in.”
[29:47] Yeah, yeah.
[29:48] No, totally.
[29:49] There's no hack.
[29:50] There’s no hack.
[29:51] And I actually hate that.
[29:52] That word is becoming on the top of my pet
peeve list, everyone trying to hack things.
[29:55] And I’m like, “Stop it, stop it.
[29:56] Just do the work.”
[29:57] Yeah.
[29:58] By the way, hackers.
[29:59] How do you think they got so good at hacking?
[30:00] They sat there in their bedrooms for, like,
20 years learning how to hack.
[30:05] Like, that, like, there is no such thing as
a hacker who just woke up one day and was
[30:08] like, “I know how to get into the Pentagon.”
[30:10] You know?
[30:11] Like, these guys are really…
[30:12] they’re like really skilled.
[30:13] They put the time in.
[30:14] They totally did.
[30:15] So that word doesn't even really work for
what we think it means.
[30:18] I wanna go to the power of finishing.
[30:22] Because you said something, another genius
gem from Big Magic, about, you know, I don't
[30:28] want it to be perfect, I want it to be finished.
[30:31] Yes.
[30:32] And that is another one of those things where
I’ll hear from folks it’s like there’s,
[30:35] you know, 15 half created bridges, half things
that are just half done and it tortures them
[30:40] and they’re afraid to start something new
because they haven't really developed the
[30:44] habit of getting something out there even
if it’s not totally perfect.
[30:47] Oh, man.
[30:48] This is a huge one.
[30:49] This is a really huge one for women because
it’s all rooted in perfectionism, which
[30:55] is, of course, the murderer of all good things.
[30:58] Perfectionism is just… it’s a serial killer.
[31:01] It just goes around killing joy, spontaneity,
wonder, grace, humility, it just kills it
[31:09] all.
[31:10] And perfectionism I think is a particularly
dangerous kind of fear, I always call perfectionism
[31:13] fear in high heeled shoes, because it’s
fancy.
[31:16] It’s like a really fancy haute couture version
of fear because perfectionism can advertise
[31:21] itself as a virtue and it can trick you into
letting it think that it’s… it makes you
[31:27] special.
[31:28] Yes.
[31:29] Because people…
[31:30] You have such high standards.
[31:31] Yeah, I have such high standards.
[31:32] I’m like, look, I just can’t rest until
something…
[31:33] I’m a perfectionist.
[31:34] It’s what people say in job interviews as
their fault.
[31:35] Yeah.
[31:36] You know, well, I guess I just care too much.
[31:37] You know?
[31:38] And you’re like…
[31:39] And you’re like, “Wow, you’re telling
me…” but what you’re telling me when
[31:41] you say that is that it’s gonna be very
hard for you not only to finish something,
[31:46] but probably to begin something.
[31:48] Because the true perfectionist won’t even
start because they know already that it’s
[31:53] not gonna be the thing that they can… they’re
dreaming of.
[31:56] And their tastes and their standards are so
high.
[31:59] I… there’s this woman I recently was talking
to who’s… who wrote a very successful
[32:04] book maybe 15 or 20 years ago and hasn't been
able to write another book since.
[32:08] And I was talking to her about it and she
said, “You know, the world’s just so full
[32:11] of crap work and I just don't wanna put another
piece of crap on the crap pile.
[32:16] So I just won't release this thing until I
feel like it’s perfect.”
[32:20] And I said to her, “I am so glad I never
took that on as my problem if the world is
[32:24] full of garbage.
[32:25] Like, how is that your responsibility?
[32:27] It’s not… this is not your problem.”
[32:29] And I was like, “It’s not my problem if
my work isn’t good.
[32:31] You know?
[32:32] It’s not my problem.
[32:33] It’s not even my fault.
[32:34] Like, it’s not my problem.”
[32:37] My problem…
[32:38] the contract that I made, the only way I finished
my first novel, because it wasn’t good because
[32:42] I’d never written a novel before.
[32:44] So why would it be good?
[32:45] Who, like, wakes up and knows how to write
a novel?
[32:47] So I was 50 pages into this thing and I’m
25 years old and it’s not good and it’s
[32:51] not… and I know what a good novel is, and
it’s not.
[32:54] This isn’t working.
[32:55] And, you know, every dignified part of me
wants to just put it in the bottom of the
[33:00] drawer and walk away.
[33:01] And then I just had, like, this, like, warrior
moment and I just remember exactly where I
[33:05] was standing and I stood up and I said out,
“I never promised the universe I would be
[33:09] a good writer.
[33:11] I just promised the universe I would be a
writer.
[33:13] That is the only thing I committed to.
[33:14] This is not my problem.”
[33:17] And I just sort of said to, like, the faeries
and the geniuses, I was like, “If you guys
[33:19] want it to be good you’re gonna have to
chip something in here because this is what…
[33:22] this is what I can do.
[33:23] If you want to add something, feel…
[33:25] any time, you know, feel free.”
[33:28] And the other commitment I made was I do not
wanna go to my grave with 50 pages of an unfinished
[33:32] novel in a drawer.
[33:33] There’s enough of that in the world.
[33:36] You know?
[33:37] And the other thing was this voice where I
was anticipating the criticism because I knew
[33:41] what the criticism would be because I knew
where it wasn’t good.
[33:44] And I just said out loud to all my future
critics at that moment, I don't know what
[33:50] kind of language I can use on your show.
[33:51] Every kind of language.
[33:52] We’re from Jersey, girl.
[33:53] I said, “If you don't like it, go write
your own fucking book.
[33:54] And you know what?
[33:55] You won’t.
[33:56] Guess what?
[33:57] You won’t.
[33:58] You won’t.
[33:59] And guess what?
[34:00] I did and, therefore, I won.”
[34:01] Yes.
[34:02] “Because mine’s finished and yours doesn't
even exist and now you’re criticizing my…”
[34:03] this is like an imaginary conversation, by
the way, with people who have never heard
[34:06] of me.
[34:06] Yeah.
[34:08] You know, but that’s how I got through that
first book was just like I just want it done
[34:10] because as my mother always taught me, done
is better than good.
[34:14] You know?
[34:15] The world is full of a bunch of really, really
good not done stuff.
[34:19] Yes.
[34:20] And if you can just finish something, you’re
already, like, 10 miles ahead of everybody
[34:24] else because most people won't.
[34:26] And what will make you finish it is not discipline,
but self forgiveness.
[34:31] Because we all start our project on day one
with the same level of excitement.
[34:35] And on day 2 we all look at what we wrote
on day 1 and we all hate ourselves.
[34:39] Because what we wrote on day one is… or
did on day one, whatever our creativity is,
[34:42] is horrible.
[34:43] Horrible.
[34:44] And the people who go on day 3 and pick it
up again and start over are not the most disciplined.
[34:50] It’s not rigor that’s gonna get you there,
it’s saying, “Alright then, I’m not…
[34:55] I’m not Hemingway.
[34:56] I’m just gonna do what I can.”
[34:58] And you forgive yourself for disappointing
yourself and you go and you do more.
[35:03] And that’s it, it’s just like a little
bit of humanity towards your poor self.
[35:08] Yeah.
[35:09] I’ll tell you, that’s the thing I need
to remind myself of the most because I have
[35:11] this thing in me, I can go into that driving
place and, again, that’s why I love your
[35:16] book so much.
[35:17] Let’s move on to hungry ghosts and failure,
because we all fail.
[35:21] And I love the quote from Clive James: “Failure
has a function.
[35:25] It asks you if you really wanna go on making
things.”
[35:27] Oh, I love that line so much.
[35:30] Ok, so the other day I was at an event and
a woman stood up and she said, “I’m so
[35:34] furious at inspiration and creativity right
now,” which is a really powerful way to
[35:38] start a statement.
[35:40] Yes.
[35:41] Really caught my attention.
[35:42] And she said, “Because I did the thing that
everybody tells you to do.
[35:45] I risked everything.
[35:47] I quit my job, I believed in my dream, I followed
my bliss, I got a whole bunch of people to
[35:51] come along with me on this project that I
wanted to do and it totally failed.
[35:55] And I lost money and I lost friends and I
lost dignity and I lost faith and I’m furious.”
[36:01] And I said, “Who… who are you mad at?”
[36:05] And she said, “I’m mad at inspiration
because I did my part and it didn't come through
[36:09] for me.”
[36:10] And, in other words, she jumped and the net
didn't catch her.
[36:13] Right?
[36:14] And… and it was such a, like, I could feel
her pain so much, it was like a hard person
[36:18] to kind of handle because she was just, like,
all shards of glass at that point because
[36:22] she was feeling so broken.
[36:24] And I said, “But when did inspiration promise
you anything?”
[36:28] Like, I know bumper stickers promise you things
and people promise you things, but when did
[36:33] inspiration itself ever promise a human being
anything?
[36:37] Other than the amazing experience of working
with it and dancing with it for a little while.
[36:41] That’s all it ever promises you is I will
let you near me and we’re gonna go and do
[36:46] this thing.
[36:47] So when inspiration says to you, “Let’s
do this wild, amazing thing together,” and
[36:53] you say, “Yeah, let’s do it,” and you
grab it by its hand like Thelma and Louise
[36:57] and you just drive off that cliff with it
and inspiration is like, “Wee!” and you’re
[37:02] like, “Wee!” and maybe it’ll catch you
and then you’ll be like, “That was amazing,”
[37:05] or maybe you’re gonna, like, hit the ground
and bust into 100 pieces.
[37:11] And then you’re gonna be like, “What just
happ…?
[37:14] Like, I thought we were a team.”
[37:16] At that point inspiration is sitting next
to you sort of on the beach under the cliff
[37:19] looking at your broken body with this big
grin on its face and it’s gonna say only
[37:23] one thing to you, and that thing is, “Wanna
do it again?
[37:26] You wanna do it… should we do it… that
was awesome.
[37:29] Should we do it again?”
[37:30] And you’re like, “I’m in tra…
[37:33] I’m in, like, I’m in a body cast because
that failure that I just had hurt so much.”
[37:39] And inspiration is like, “But, yeah, you…
but wasn’t that kind of amazing?
[37:43] Don't you wanna do it again?”
[37:45] And you may say, “No, I never wanna do it
again,” and that’s totally your choice.
[37:49] Or you may say, “I need a few months to
kind of sew myself back together again from
[37:54] not having stuck that landing.”
[37:56] You know?
[37:57] But every morning I guarantee you you’ll
wake up bruised and hurt and shamed and inspiration
[38:02] will be like, “Hey, wanna do it again?
[38:04] Should we do that thing again?”
[38:06] Great friend.
[38:07] And one of these days you’ll be like, “Oh,
let’s do it again.”
[38:10] I mean, we’re only here for such a short
time.
[38:13] Yes.
[38:14] Let’s drive off another cliff.
[38:15] You know?
[38:16] But as you go into that more and more you
might find ways to kind of, like, put airbags
[38:20] in the car.
[38:21] Like, there are protective measures that you
can take to make sure that when you fail maybe
[38:25] you don't lose everything.
[38:26] Yes.
[38:27] You know?
[38:28] That you have some sort of room and cushion
so that you can fail, so that when inspiration
[38:33] invites you to take another leap you’re
like… dust yourself off, all my bones are
[38:39] still intact, yeah.
[38:40] Let’s do it.
[38:42] Because there’s no better thing to spend
your life doing than saying yes to that invitation.
[38:46] Liz, I feel like you and I could talk for
hours.
[38:49] I’m gonna…
[38:50] I have 2 more things before I let you boogie.
[38:53] Sure.
[38:54] The creative paradox and making space for
two mutually contradicting ideas, that I love
[38:59] because I love the richness of paradox.
[39:02] This idea that if my creativity must be the
most important thing in the world to me and
[39:07] it also must not matter at all.
[39:10] Oh, jeez.
[39:11] Ok, once again.
[39:12] Yes.
[39:13] We’re all grownups here.
[39:15] Yes.
[39:16] I do believe that it is humanly possible for
the human mind to hold two completely opposing
[39:21] ideas as true at the same time.
[39:23] I agree.
[39:24] And this is why, for instance, I’m capable
of being a completely rational, scientific,
[39:30] empirical person who believes in evolution
and global warming and reads The Science Times
[39:35] and thinks it’s all fascinating and at the
same time I can keep a place in my mind awake
[39:39] and alive to mystery, magic, and miracle.
[39:42] No problem.
[39:43] Yes.
[39:44] Like, I do not see this as a contradiction.
[39:46] I have…
[39:47] I have a big mind, you have a big mind, we
can do both of those things at the same time.
[39:51] You know?
[39:52] And… and so the paradox that you have to
be able to hold onto comfortably if you’re
[39:55] gonna do any kind of creativity is exactly
that.
[39:58] As you’re approaching it you have to approach
it as though nothing matters more than this.
[40:03] And then sometimes minutes later you have
to be willing to throw it away and be like,
[40:08] “Eh, it doesn't matter.”
[40:09] You know?
[40:10] So, like, when I’m writing, that’s what
I’m moving back and forth between all the
[40:12] time is I’m sitting down and I’m like,
“This sentence has to be the most beautifully
[40:16] written sentence in the entire world and it
is spiritually and artistically lazy of me
[40:21] to bring anything less than that.”
[40:23] And I’m, like, laboring over this sentence
and I’m trying to bring… and I love it
[40:27] and then I go back later and read the paragraph
and realize that it actually doesn't work.
[40:31] And then I’m like, “Ah, screw it.”
[40:33] So, like, you love it and then you dismiss
it.
[40:36] Yes.
[40:37] You love it and then you dismiss it.
[40:38] It is not… the thing is, your work has…
one of the big problems that I’ve seen,
[40:42] I talk about this in Big Magic too, is when
people refer to their work as their baby.
[40:46] It ain’t your baby.
[40:47] It ain’t your baby, it’s not a human baby.
[40:50] It’s not a human baby.
[40:51] There’s a lot of differences between this
book and a human baby.
[40:54] Like, for instance, this.
[40:55] Watch.
[40:56] Like, oh my God.
[40:57] You’d arrest me if I did that to a human
baby.
[40:58] But I can totally do that.
[41:00] I can do that.
[41:01] I can rip pages out of it, it’s just a thing.
[41:03] It’s just a thing I made.
[41:04] It’s not a baby.
[41:05] And it’s independent of me now.
[41:07] Yes.
[41:08] Because it’s finished, so it doesn't need
me.
[41:09] Yes.
[41:10] And people can attack it and they can criticize
it, they can misunderstand it, they can steal
[41:15] parts of it, they can do all sorts of stuff
that you wouldn't do to a human baby.
[41:20] And it will be fine and I will be fine because
there’s a difference between me and this
[41:23] thing.
[41:24] Right?
[41:25] So as much as I cared about it while I wrote
it, now I have to kind of not care about it.
[41:29] And what I also have to recognize is if anything
I have been its baby because everything that
[41:34] I am and everything that I have learned and
everything that I have been and become in
[41:38] my life is because of the creative things
that I made.
[41:41] In other words, they were making me.
[41:43] Right?
[41:44] That’s why you have to let your creativity
out is because it has you as a project.
[41:48] It’s building you.
[41:49] It’s creating you.
[41:50] So it’s not the other way around.
[41:52] So, like, don't get all precious about the
thing you made.
[41:54] Get precious about it while you’re making
it, because that’s the part where you can
[41:58] and should be precious.
[41:59] Once it’s done, bleh.
[42:02] Kick it to the curb and make another one.
[42:04] You know?
[42:05] You’re out.
[42:06] It’s like you’re old enough to drive,
you know?
[42:08] You don't need me anymore.
[42:09] You know?
[42:10] Like, just let it go.
[42:11] Buy your own lunch.
[42:12] Exactly.
[42:13] Under this roof?
[42:14] Not… you know, like, that’s the sort of
tone that I think is appropriate.
[42:16] But don't be like that as you’re doing it.
[42:19] Because as you’re doing it love it, cherish
it, and then forget about it.
[42:24] Forget about it.
[42:25] True Jersey style.
[42:26] So I wanna leave on what I think was maybe
the most valuable thing for me, is your distinction
[42:30] between being a martyr and being a trickster
as it relates to creativity because I feel
[42:34] like I was schooled in the pain aspect of
it.
[42:39] Even though I’m a pretty joyful, fun, playful
person…
[42:41] Right.
[42:42] ...somehow if I sit down to write or create
something new it’s like, “Ooh, I’ve
[42:46] gotta suit up and this is gonna be…”
[42:48] This is gonna hurt.
[42:49] This is gonna hurt.
[42:50] This is gonna hurt.
[42:51] Ok, so I think there are two kinds of creators
in the world: there are the martyrs and the
[42:53] tricksters.
[42:54] And most of us were schooled in martyrdom.
[42:55] You know, we come out of a pretty heavy Christian
Germanic, romantic tradition that says by
[43:01] your suffering you shall be redeemed, really.
[43:03] And… and your scars are the badges of honor
that show how seriously you take your life.
[43:09] And how much you destroy yourself and everyone
around you in the process of making something
[43:14] shows us how seriously you take your work.
[43:17] I reject it.
[43:18] I reject it.
[43:19] The other way is the trickster way.
[43:21] And so the martyr walks around saying, “I
will do this even if it kills me,” and the
[43:25] trickster says, “I didn't come here to suffer.”
[43:30] You know?
[43:31] And the martyr says, “By my wounds I shall
be known,” and the trickster says, “Pick
[43:35] a card, any card.”
[43:36] The trickster is playing with this whole thing
the entire time.
[43:39] You know, the martyr says, “I’m gonna
end up in a broken heap and… and that’s
[43:44] how you’ll know that I was serious.”
[43:46] And the trickster says, “I’m gonna walk
off with your girl while you're doing that.”
[43:50] The martyr is like Sir Thomas Moore and the
trickster is Bugs Bunny who’s always looking
[43:55] at how to sort of subvert and do things differently
and do things more playfully and do things
[43:59] in a transgressive way.
[44:01] You know?
[44:02] And that, I feel like, is where the instinct
for art originally came from.
[44:07] Because art does that, it turns things upside
down, it looks at things sideways, it plays
[44:10] with things, it… it de-sanctifies the holy
thing.
[44:13] Yes.
[44:14] See, the martyrdom is all about this kind
of sanctity that is so heavy that it will
[44:19] break you.
[44:20] And the tricksterdom is like what if we don't
have to treat this thing like it’s a holy,
[44:25] sacred relic?
[44:26] What if I turn…
[44:28] what if I, like, put sparkles on it?
[44:30] What if I…?
[44:31] You know?
[44:32] I get out my bedazzler.
[44:33] What if I just get my glue gun and… and
just… you know?
[44:37] Like, what if nothing’s holy and everything’s
allowed?
[44:40] That’s what art has been asking for centuries,
even holy, even sacred art has been asking.
[44:46] You know, even the Sistine Chapel has a bunch
of little, like, winks from Michelangelo like,
[44:51] “What if the Pope is not infallible?
[44:54] What if I, like, give him donkey ears?
[44:56] What if I…?”
[44:57] Yes.
[44:58] You know, there’s always, like, this sort
of playfulness that art wants to do.
[45:01] And all we wanna do is take it so seriously
that we kill it and often ourselves in the
[45:06] process.
[45:07] And so if you can learn how to dance with
the trickster part of yourself, which is in
[45:10] you because we all have martyr in us and we
all have trickster in us.
[45:14] And… and trust.
[45:15] That’s the thing about the trickster, the
trickster trusts the universe.
[45:19] Trusts that if the trickster takes the ball,
throws it into the universe, the trickster
[45:22] knows it’s coming back.
[45:24] It might come back 3 years from now, it might
come back in a hailstorm of, like, 20 balls,
[45:28] it might come back, like, in some really comic,
strange way, but if you engage there’ll
[45:33] be a response.
[45:34] And the only thing the trickster wants to
spend its life doing is playing with that
[45:38] sense of, like, put it out there, see what
happens.
[45:40] Put it out there, see what happens.
[45:41] And it’s just a more fun way to live that
isn’t quite so heavy and isn’t quite so
[45:47] macho.
[45:48] And… and that’s the way that I’ve always
wanted to engage with my work.
[45:51] And whenever I catch myself being the martyr
I’m like, “Are you falling for this?
[45:56] Are you falling for this thing that says the
only way that you can be creative is to suffer?
[46:00] Because you know better, right?”
[46:02] And then we trick our way out of it.
[46:04] Liz Gilbert, you are a treasure.
[46:07] Thank you.
[46:08] You are so sweet to say so.
[46:09] It’s the truth as I know it.
[46:11] Thank you so much for being here.
[46:13] Everyone, I mean, I couldn’t love this book
more.
[46:16] I really do think it’s required reading
for all human beings, and especially if you’re
[46:20] wanting to create anything in your life.
[46:23] So thank you so much for being here.
[46:25] You are so welcome.
[46:26] Let’s hope that all human beings buy it.
[46:29] Read Big Magic.
[46:30] Woo hoo!
[46:31] That’s so lovely.
[46:32] You’re so, so, so sweet and I love this
conversation.
[46:35] Thank you.
[46:36] Now Liz and I would love to hear from you.
[46:39] There was so much good stuff in this episode,
so I want to know what was the most significant
[46:44] thing for you as it relates to your creativity
and bringing your dreams to life?
[46:48] Now, as always, the best discussions happen
after the episode over at MarieForleo.com,
[46:54] so go there and leave a comment now.
[46:56] Did you like this video?
[46:58] I have to tell you, this is one of my all
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[47:06] And if you want even more great resources
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[47:11] plus some personal insights from me that I
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[47:19] Stay on your game and keep going for your
dreams because the world needs that special
[47:24] gift that only you have.
[47:26] Thank you so much for watching and I’ll
catch you next time on MarieTV.