Transcript
[0:00] I came out of this experience of
[0:02] studying consciousness and looking at
[0:04] all the theories of consciousness. I
[0:06] don't want to give it away but we have
[0:08] no idea about consciousness really how
[0:10] it's how how brain matter generates
[0:12] consciousness if indeed that's how it
[0:14] happens and there are people who doubt
[0:17] that's how it happens it could be that
[0:18] the brain channels consciousness right I
[0:21] mean that if you conceive of
[0:23] consciousness as like electromagnetic
[0:25] waves
[0:26] >> um brains are like radio receivers or TV
[0:29] receivers you wouldn't you wouldn't look
[0:30] in the TV set for the woman who gave you
[0:33] the weather report you know she's not
[0:35] there she's
[0:36] So I don't know that that's true but
[0:39] coming out of this experience of
[0:41] studying this I don't dismiss an idea
[0:44] like that you have to keep an open mind
[0:46] because our presumption that you know
[0:49] consciousness is an emergent property of
[0:51] brain complexity that idea doesn't have
[0:54] much traction. Welcome to the Hubberman
[0:56] Lab podcast where we discuss science
[0:58] [music] and science-based tools for
[1:00] everyday life.
[1:04] >> [music]
[1:04] >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
[1:06] of neurobiology and opthalmology at
[1:09] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
[1:11] today is Michael Pollen, author of
[1:13] landmark books including How to Change
[1:15] Your Mind, which is about psychedelics,
[1:17] The Botney of Desire, which is about how
[1:19] humans and plants co-evolved and
[1:21] collaborated to thrive. And The
[1:23] Omnivore's Dilemma, which is an
[1:25] incredible book about food and
[1:27] nutrition, and most recently, the book A
[1:29] World Appears: A Journey into
[1:31] Consciousness. Michael Pollen is
[1:33] considered by many, including me, to be
[1:35] one of the most learned and thoughtful
[1:36] people on topics that matter to all
[1:38] humans and the things that we can do to
[1:41] improve the human experience. Today, we
[1:43] talk about many topics, but mostly we
[1:45] focus on consciousness. And Michael
[1:47] brings forward a new perspective that
[1:49] integrates the best science on this
[1:50] topic as well as philosophy and beyond.
[1:53] And we get deep into this notion of the
[1:55] ego, meaning our notion of self, and how
[1:57] the ego is both important for and limits
[2:00] our understanding of ourselves and life.
[2:02] I should emphasize that the conversation
[2:04] is not as abstract as I'm making it
[2:06] sound. What I love about Michael Pollen
[2:08] is he makes these topics very clear and
[2:10] very concrete and in many cases
[2:12] actionable. Thanks to Michael, by the
[2:14] end of today's conversation, you will be
[2:16] placed at the front edge of the
[2:17] conversation and the data on this thing
[2:19] that we call consciousness. You'll also
[2:21] be versed on the latest of plant or what
[2:22] is sometimes called psychedelic medicine
[2:24] and perhaps most importantly what you
[2:26] can do in your life to gain new
[2:28] perspective on yourself, others, and the
[2:30] planet at large. Before we begin, I'd
[2:33] like to emphasize that this podcast is
[2:34] separate from my teaching and research
[2:36] roles at Stanford. It is however part of
[2:38] my desire and effort to bring zero cost
[2:40] to consumer information about science
[2:41] and science related tools to the general
[2:43] public. In keeping with that theme,
[2:45] today's episode does include sponsors.
[2:48] And now for my discussion with Michael
[2:50] Pollen. Michael Pollen, welcome.
[2:52] [clears throat]
[2:52] >> Thank you. Good to be here.
[2:54] >> Longtime fan of your books, of you. I've
[2:57] had the privilege of speaking on stage
[3:00] next to you, although mostly I was just
[3:01] listening to you because you are this
[3:04] amazing intersection of science writer.
[3:08] You've written about food, psychedelics,
[3:10] now consciousness. You'll tell us about
[3:12] your new work on microbiome. I feel like
[3:14] there's also some Wendel Berry woven in
[3:16] there. Big Wendleberry.
[3:18] >> Good. I didn't insult you. I didn't
[3:19] shout about that.
[3:20] >> We just lost him, too.
[3:22] >> Oh, is that right?
[3:22] >> He died like two weeks ago.
[3:24] >> Oh my goodness. I know.
[3:25] >> I'm a I'm like a huge Wendleberry fan.
[3:27] >> Really? Me, too. Oh my goodness.
[3:29] >> He taught me how to write and he taught
[3:30] me how to think about certain things.
[3:33] But I, you know, he had a huge influence
[3:35] on I was very fond of him. Did
[3:36] >> you ever meet him?
[3:37] >> Oh, yeah. We had I interviewed him on
[3:40] stage a few times. He interviewed me uh
[3:43] in Lexington, Kentucky, and um about one
[3:46] of my books. And I went to his house uh
[3:48] and saw the long-legged house where he
[3:50] writes on the river. He was always
[3:53] trying to convince people like us about
[3:55] the beauty of the tobacco culture.
[3:59] and he kind of bracketed the cigarette
[4:01] piece and the lung cancer piece, but the
[4:06] culture was so beautiful and it was the
[4:08] one time where the whole community got
[4:09] together and racial lines were crossed
[4:11] and the and the barns are gorgeous that
[4:13] you know the the the tobacco barns with
[4:15] the slots for drying. [snorts] So he he
[4:18] wanted me to see those uh when I when I
[4:20] came there.
[4:21] >> Amazing. Yeah, I was feeling a little
[4:23] anxious about bringing in that reference
[4:25] in case you weren't a fan or you didn't
[4:26] like his work, but clearly uh he was
[4:29] calling in because um he was and for
[4:31] those who don't know Wendel Barry is
[4:32] this uh just magnificent poet who
[4:35] >> and farmer and essaist. Yeah. And he um
[4:40] you know actually when I was writing my
[4:42] first book, Second Nature, I was trying
[4:44] to figure out how to behave in the
[4:46] garden. Um which is a microcosm of how
[4:48] do we behave in nature, right? In other
[4:50] words, I had pests. Uh, I had problems.
[4:53] I had fertility issues. And the American
[4:57] tradition of thinking about nature,
[4:59] which goes back to Thorough and John
[5:00] Mure and Emerson, is all about
[5:04] celebrating the the wilderness and being
[5:07] a spectator in nature. And of course,
[5:09] the gardener can't afford to do that.
[5:11] You have to act or you're not going to
[5:12] have anything to eat. I had a headful of
[5:16] thorough and Emerson from college and
[5:18] graduate school and I was kind of
[5:21] stymied about like what do I do about
[5:22] weeds? You know there you telling me
[5:25] weeds have just as much right to be in
[5:27] your garden as the bean plant which is
[5:29] crazy. But it was Wendell who who would
[5:33] write these essays and he and he
[5:34] convinced me, you know, he said we have
[5:36] a legitimate quarrel with nature and
[5:38] that our relationship is, you know, we
[5:40] do have to make changes in nature to for
[5:43] us to survive. And that's kind of who we
[5:44] are is um the species who remakes nature
[5:48] in various ways, but it has to be done
[5:51] u sort of more like a marriage than a
[5:53] domination. And uh so he just had a new
[5:56] way of thinking about how to relate to
[5:59] nature that really helped me and and
[6:01] clarified my whole view of
[6:03] environmentalism. So yeah, he's a great
[6:05] hero.
[6:06] >> Amazing. I'm saddened to hear that he
[6:08] passed, but he certainly left behind.
[6:11] >> Well, it's a pretty good run.
[6:13] >> He had a very good run.
[6:14] >> We will put some links to his work for
[6:16] those that aren't familiar, and I
[6:17] encourage anyone listening to just and
[6:20] even those who are familiar with Wendell
[6:22] to go read some of his poems. They're
[6:24] they're they're an incredible journey
[6:26] and uh
[6:28] >> full stop.
[6:29] >> Yeah.
[6:29] >> Yeah,
[6:29] >> I'm with you.
[6:31] >> Let's talk about consciousness.
[6:32] >> As a neuroscientist, I was taught to
[6:34] avoid this
[6:35] >> issue. I hear it was the kiss of death
[6:37] at a certain point, right?
[6:39] >> Neuroscientists who had were already
[6:41] very accomplished and famous in some
[6:42] specific domain like memory or
[6:44] neuromuscular junctions or whatever
[6:46] could talk about it. They had permission
[6:48] once they had their prizes and their um
[6:50] stature. But some people have died on
[6:53] the bed of nails that is the
[6:55] consciousness discussion.
[6:56] >> I almost did. [laughter]
[6:58] >> Clearly not. But uh yeah, but maybe you
[7:01] can tell us why why it's so so
[7:03] precarious. But it's hard to define I
[7:05] think is part of it. And uh kudos to you
[7:08] for jumping in with uh both feet uh on
[7:11] this one. So after having written a book
[7:14] about consciousness essentially, do you
[7:17] think that we can describe it in a
[7:20] sentence? Can we give it an operational
[7:22] definition or
[7:23] >> it's such a strange phenomenon because
[7:25] there is nothing we know with more
[7:26] certainty than the fact that we're
[7:28] conscious. It's the only thing we can be
[7:30] sure of. Everything else we know through
[7:32] consciousness, right? Everything else is
[7:34] an inference, but we have this thing
[7:36] that we know we have. But defining it is
[7:39] difficult. So there are some very simple
[7:42] definitions like subjective experience.
[7:45] Um that's pretty good. Uh your toaster
[7:48] doesn't have subjective experience. And
[7:50] I would argue AIS don't have subjective
[7:52] experience, but we can talk about that
[7:53] later. Another popular, I don't know if
[7:56] it's a definition exactly, is Thomas
[7:59] Nagel, the uh the the philosopher in the
[8:02] 1970s wrote a brilliant essay called
[8:04] what is it like to be a bat? And his
[8:08] point was if it is like anything, then
[8:11] you're conscious. So, even though we
[8:13] don't know exactly what it's like to be
[8:15] a bat, we can kind of imagine a creature
[8:17] that navigates the world through sonar,
[8:20] through sound waves instead of uh light,
[8:22] photons. And so, okay, we can imagine
[8:25] that. So, yes, bats are conscious by
[8:28] that definition. Um, so is it like
[8:30] something to be a computer is a real
[8:32] question that I think we're going to
[8:34] have to face. That's kind of what I use
[8:36] as a definition. There's a lot of bells
[8:38] and whistles that that human
[8:40] consciousness has above that. We're not
[8:42] just aware, but we're aware that we're
[8:44] aware. We have self-reflection or
[8:46] metacognition.
[8:48] Emotion, you know, add that in. So, I
[8:52] think humans have a very elaborated
[8:56] kind of consciousness compared to some
[8:58] other creatures. I make a distinction in
[9:00] the book between sensience and
[9:01] consciousness that some scientists make
[9:04] and I find really useful. Sensience
[9:06] being a more basic kind of ground floor
[9:09] of consciousness that uh includes
[9:13] awareness of your environment and a
[9:16] recognition of changes whether they're
[9:18] good or bad and that may be universal
[9:21] and that may be a property of life. Um,
[9:24] you can make a case that uh plants have
[9:27] sensience, that single-sellled creatures
[9:29] have sensience, and it may be something
[9:31] you need to survive in an environment
[9:33] that's constantly changing that you
[9:35] can't program instinctually everything
[9:37] you need to know. So that this would be
[9:39] very useful. And consciousness is how we
[9:43] do sensience. You know, we've added on
[9:45] all these things. And every creature has
[9:47] its own version of sensience based on
[9:50] their body type, their sensorium, their
[9:53] the scale of uh at which they live in in
[9:56] time and space cuz it's kind of to to to
[9:59] take our our our version of
[10:01] consciousness and make that the standard
[10:03] for everybody seems kind of crazy. This
[10:05] thing about being able to respond to the
[10:08] environment being some key component of
[10:10] consciousness. Um, a plant can respond
[10:12] to the environment. A barnacle
[10:14] >> can respond to the environment.
[10:16] >> Bacteria can.
[10:17] >> Bacteria can. They can light sense. It's
[10:19] they actually know the difference
[10:20] between morning and evening.
[10:21] >> And they have chemotaxis. They know
[10:23] between the difference between something
[10:24] that's good to eat and something that's
[10:25] toxic.
[10:27] >> Do you think they know they know? This
[10:28] is the piece that I feel like the the
[10:31] responding and the awareness that one is
[10:32] responding is maybe where in my mind I
[10:35] want to draw the line for some reason.
[10:36] like a plant will you know you know
[10:39] furlur and unfurl uh when in the
[10:41] presence of light but does it know it's
[10:44] responding and why I mean I suppose we
[10:47] all the time respond to things and don't
[10:49] know why but usually like I if I take a
[10:51] sip of this tea and and it's too hot um
[10:54] I have some sense of what I'm going to
[10:57] do next and why I feel like the the
[10:59] other stuff is just reflexive. Yeah,
[11:01] it's reflexive, but it I I don't think
[11:03] it's it's uh always programmed. I think
[11:07] that there are novel situations that
[11:08] even a plant confronts where they have
[11:11] to have an intelligent response that
[11:13] isn't necessarily um something
[11:16] programmed in their genes. I mean, I I
[11:18] took a deep dive into this field of
[11:21] plant intelligence, which is
[11:23] fascinating. I mean, the things we're
[11:24] learning that plants can do that you
[11:26] would not have guessed. I mean, you can
[11:28] take a corn plant and [snorts]
[11:30] uh it can navigate a maze. You can give
[11:32] it a maze and and put some uh
[11:35] fertilizer, some ammonium nitrate in one
[11:37] like corner of it and the roots will
[11:40] find the fastest uh path to that
[11:43] ammonium nitrate. That's not a situation
[11:46] it really experiences in nature. It has
[11:49] to um that takes a certain kind of
[11:51] intelligence, problem solving ability.
[11:54] If you play the sound of caterpillars
[11:56] chomping on leaves for a plant, they
[11:59] will react to the sound uh and send uh
[12:03] either toxins or bad tasting chemicals
[12:05] to that leaf to defend themselves. They
[12:08] can respond to the sound of water and
[12:10] they will and they're if they if they
[12:12] feel if they hear water running through
[12:14] a pipe, they will go down. They have
[12:16] like 20 senses. We have five or six.
[12:19] >> They can sense gravity, which we can't
[12:21] do. They they can sense pH. They can
[12:24] sense um uh whether nutrient levels are
[12:28] on a positive gradient or negative
[12:30] gradient. I mean, it's remarkable. One
[12:33] of the to me most curious things about
[12:37] plants is that they respond to the same
[12:39] anesthetics we do. Now, you might think,
[12:43] what does it mean to put a plant out? Um
[12:45] aren't they already out? But actually,
[12:48] they're just slow. They have behaviors.
[12:50] They're just very slow. So you take a
[12:51] you take a plant with a really fast
[12:53] behavior like a Venus fly trap and you
[12:55] put it in a bell jar and you put some
[12:58] anesthetic gas in xenon gas or or any
[13:01] number of uh you know anything you can
[13:03] put in gas form and they will not
[13:05] respond to uh an insect crossing their
[13:09] threshold where normally they would
[13:11] clamp down. So that raises a really
[13:14] interesting question. What exactly are
[13:16] they losing when they are under? We
[13:20] would say consciousness, but that's a
[13:22] long way to go. I mean, I don't use the
[13:24] word consciousness for plants, although
[13:25] I met scientists who do, but I would say
[13:28] that's sensience that that that that
[13:30] there's a loss of sensience that's
[13:32] happening when when they uh are
[13:34] anesthetized. But as you know,
[13:37] anesthetics are really weird. We don't
[13:38] even know how they work on us, right? I
[13:40] mean, xenon gas is inert gas and it puts
[13:43] you out. How does that work?
[13:45] >> This scare anyone going in for surgery.
[13:47] The anesthesia anesthesiologists have
[13:49] gotten much better. Yes, they know what
[13:50] they're doing.
[13:50] >> They know what they're doing.
[13:52] >> I'd like to take a quick break and
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[16:39] Can we go at self versus other as maybe
[16:43] one potential window into this? I I
[16:46] don't want to make any assumptions, but
[16:47] when I think about the consciousness
[16:49] problem, I I think most people know that
[16:52] they are them and they know what's not
[16:54] them. And uh maybe a decent analogy is
[16:58] when nerve cells grow, they know the
[17:01] difference between them and other cells.
[17:03] So at the cellular level, you know, this
[17:06] is already set up. And in fact, I love
[17:08] your example of the the root growing
[17:10] towards the fertilizer because you can
[17:13] give a nerve cell a simple rule, all
[17:15] nerve cells a simple rule, which is
[17:17] essentially grow out as far as you can
[17:19] and connect with as many other nerve
[17:20] cells as you possibly can
[17:23] and know the difference between you and
[17:26] other. And if you do that
[17:27] >> even within the same species.
[17:29] >> Yeah. So, you know, and there are some
[17:30] exceptions to this, but it turns out to
[17:32] be it's not straightforward to build a
[17:34] brain, but you don't need a ton of
[17:36] signals. You need signals that say grow
[17:38] here and you need signals that say you
[17:40] may not grow here.
[17:41] >> What we call cheotractants and chem
[17:43] repellants. And then if you think about
[17:44] that the the dendrites and axons that
[17:47] the branches of the neurons they often
[17:48] have these beautiful architectures.
[17:50] Those are set up by a simple rule of
[17:52] self- avoidance. Mhm.
[17:53] >> You they the branches know that they are
[17:55] that they're in the same of the same
[17:57] neuron and they just keep growing and
[17:58] they keep branching every time they get
[18:00] too close to one of their own and then
[18:02] you end up with these beautiful
[18:03] architectures depending on what other
[18:05] cells are doing that around you. That's
[18:06] how you get the all these different cell
[18:09] types and there's other features to it
[18:10] too.
[18:11] >> And I was shocked and excited to learn
[18:13] that that's kind of how tree roots do it
[18:15] too.
[18:15] >> Yes, I was going to say.
[18:16] >> So simple rules can build immense
[18:18] complexity. That that's that's the the
[18:20] point. And the self recognizing self
[18:22] versus other and then a simple rule of
[18:25] get as much stuff as you can. It sounds
[18:28] very selfish, right? Sets up a great
[18:30] system actually because then everyone's
[18:33] doing that and you end up with
[18:34] essentially a tiled system.
[18:36] >> No tree, no neuron gets too much space,
[18:38] >> right?
[18:39] >> And while this is all very cellular and
[18:42] we're literally talking about the
[18:43] branches of cells, it's not, you know,
[18:45] thinking. I feel like when you get up to
[18:47] the whole organism, I know the
[18:49] difference between me and you, me and
[18:50] the microphone.
[18:51] >> These plants seem to know the difference
[18:53] between them and the fertilizer.
[18:56] >> So, this lack of confusion about what's
[18:58] me and what's not me seems to be like
[18:59] the most important rule that perhaps
[19:02] builds up to the consciousness thing.
[19:03] It's just perhaps
[19:04] >> it's really an important rule and you
[19:07] see it in plant roots too because if you
[19:09] put uh two plants that are related to
[19:12] one another have some genetic connection
[19:14] but are separate plants they will share
[19:17] soil
[19:18] >> and grow together and but if they're not
[19:22] related even if they're the same species
[19:24] they will compete. ditto, you know, the
[19:27] plant that um when plants are shaded by
[19:31] another plant, they grow fast to get
[19:33] above it. But if they're shaded by
[19:35] themselves closer to your example, they
[19:38] don't they know like, well, that's we're
[19:40] getting we're getting the light over
[19:41] there, so I don't have to go there. But
[19:44] yeah, I think the self and other is is
[19:45] is a key rule and and I I completely
[19:49] agree that you can take a set of very
[19:50] simple rules and build a very complex
[19:54] creature from it. how that gets you to
[19:55] consciousness. I mean self and others an
[19:58] important part of consciousness although
[20:01] and I talk about the self as kind of the
[20:03] most elaborate or advanced manifestation
[20:06] of consciousness. It turns out you can
[20:08] have consciousness without a self and
[20:10] that's um uh you know I mean meditators
[20:13] know this um psychedelics give you and
[20:16] it can give you an experience of
[20:18] consciousness without a self. I think we
[20:21] have it every morning when we wake up.
[20:23] There's that 500 milliseconds, you know,
[20:26] when you're reconstituting like who am
[20:28] I? Where am I? Oh, you know, here I am.
[20:30] >> And it's 750 milliseconds if you're in a
[20:33] hotel room as I realized this morning.
[20:36] >> Yes,
[20:36] >> that's kind of weird that you can have
[20:38] that there is a there is a consciousness
[20:40] that is uh not organized around a self.
[20:44] And um uh you know, Buddhists have known
[20:46] this for a long time, but it's it's it's
[20:48] a strange idea. Going back to the the
[20:51] plants and their intelligence, you know,
[20:52] I've spent a little bit of time with
[20:54] people in the plant medicine community.
[20:56] Not a lot. I'm not a you like a heavy
[20:57] psychonaut or anything, but
[20:59] >> there does seem to be this understanding
[21:01] there. And I I don't think it's just
[21:03] conjecture. I think it's a real
[21:04] understanding of people who spend time
[21:05] in the jungle, who spend time with plant
[21:07] medicines. Even pharmacists in this
[21:10] country will tell you that most drugs
[21:12] were bioprocted from the jungle. big
[21:14] pharma are isolated compounds
[21:17] synthesized, you know, um, as you know,
[21:20] uh, from jungle plants and other plants.
[21:22] So, there's this notion that the plants
[21:25] actually can sense us and that they're
[21:28] communicating with us. I know this
[21:30] sounds really wacky, but we can
[21:32] certainly see them. We can smell them.
[21:34] They can have, you know, odor effects on
[21:37] us. Uh, some are poisonous, some are
[21:38] delicious and and wonderful for for us.
[21:42] They're nourishing. What do you think
[21:44] about this sort of cross species
[21:46] communication? Do you think it's a a
[21:47] real thing having spent some time you
[21:50] spent a lot of time on about
[21:52] >> writing about plants in a garden? Like
[21:55] my mom gardens and she is convinced and
[21:57] she's a very rational person. She is
[21:59] convinced that talking to the plants
[22:02] while she plants them has a real effect
[22:05] on the relationship between her and
[22:07] these plants. I mean, she's not thinking
[22:09] that they can hear and understand the
[22:11] language, but that there's some sort of
[22:13] energetic transfer there. And I don't
[22:15] think she's alone. People who garden
[22:17] have a relationship to the plants, and I
[22:18] certainly feel this way about my dog, to
[22:21] some extent, my fish, although to a
[22:23] lesser extent. So,
[22:24] >> I don't think it's entirely crazy.
[22:26] >> I don't think it's crazy. I think that
[22:28] um
[22:30] I haven't had that experience myself. I
[22:33] I did have an experience and this was
[22:36] talk about plant medicine on on
[22:37] psilocybin that I described in my book
[22:40] of um feeling that the plants in my
[22:43] garden were conscious and um aware and
[22:46] returning my gaze and they were very
[22:48] benevolent and I took good care of them.
[22:51] That's good. Otherwise, it could get
[22:52] scary.
[22:53] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[22:54] >> And I didn't know what to do with that.
[22:56] I mean there's a whole question with
[22:58] insights you have on psychedelics like
[23:00] do they have any value and how do you
[23:01] judge their value and in my case I
[23:05] thought back to William James who had
[23:07] written in in varieties of mystical
[23:09] experience uh that you can't really
[23:12] judge the veracity of a of a big insight
[23:16] on a mystical experience because we
[23:18] don't know enough but there are two ways
[23:21] to think about it. Is it a useful thing?
[23:23] Is it pragmatic to believe that? And
[23:25] that's one argument in favor. And the
[23:27] other is treat it as a hypothesis and
[23:30] see if you can find other ways of
[23:32] knowing scientific or or otherwise that
[23:35] could uh support that idea. And that's
[23:37] what got me into plant um you know
[23:39] learning about plant intelligence and
[23:41] plant sensience. We are in relationship
[23:43] with plants domesticated plants in
[23:45] particular. I think they manipulate us
[23:47] in various ways. But it's it's not at
[23:50] the level of the individual plant. and
[23:52] it's at the level of the this the
[23:54] evolution of the species. So um you know
[23:58] corn came to dominate the landscape in
[24:01] much of the world because it figured out
[24:04] what we wanted from it. And when I say
[24:06] figured out I mean purely by trial and
[24:08] error. Cannabis too. Cannabis was you
[24:10] know this plant you know located in
[24:13] western China I guess and now it's
[24:16] everywhere. And the reason it did is it
[24:18] learned that we respond if it produced
[24:22] this chemical called THC,
[24:25] it was going to get carried around the
[24:27] world and reproduced. And so I I I think
[24:30] we're in this symbiotic relationship
[24:32] with plants and that they they do
[24:34] manipulate us. They're um geniuses at
[24:38] biochemistry as you suggest, you know,
[24:40] and that's a function of the fact that
[24:42] they can't get up and run away, right?
[24:44] They're rooted. They're cesile as it's
[24:46] called. And so instead of consciousness
[24:50] like we have and mo and uh the ability
[24:53] to move around, they they develop
[24:56] chemicals, this incredible suite of
[24:58] chemicals. And they hit on some
[25:01] chemicals that happen to change our
[25:03] consciousness. And this has been one of
[25:05] the most successful um strategies. Uh
[25:09] coffee and tea are are great examples.
[25:12] They didn't originally make these
[25:13] chemicals for us. They're probably
[25:16] defense chemicals, but what's
[25:18] interesting about the defense chemicals
[25:20] that they produce is that they're not
[25:22] they don't kill anything. I mean,
[25:24] caffeine might kill insects, some
[25:26] insects. But somewhere along the line,
[25:28] they learned that it was better to just
[25:30] kind of with your mind than kill
[25:33] you outright. Because if they killed you
[25:35] outright, you would very quickly develop
[25:38] resistance, right? You'd select for
[25:39] resistant members of the species.
[25:42] >> [snorts]
[25:42] >> The way I learned this, it was courtesy
[25:44] of my cat, Frank. Frank had a real
[25:48] catnip problem. And uh every night,
[25:51] Frank, uh I would go down to my garden
[25:53] to, you know, harvest some lettuce or
[25:55] something like that. And I had a catnip
[25:57] plant. And this is in a fenced garden.
[26:00] And Frank would follow me and look at
[26:02] me. And he needed to be reminded where
[26:04] the catnip was. It's like, you know, why
[26:07] don't you know where it is? because he
[26:09] would get so wrecked on catnip that he
[26:12] would he would forget. And like that's a
[26:14] brilliant strategy on the part on the
[26:17] part of the um the plant to get your
[26:20] predator to forget where you are.
[26:22] >> Amazing.
[26:23] >> And the other thing they do, of course,
[26:25] many plant chemicals, psychoactive
[26:27] chemicals diminish your appetite.
[26:30] Another brilliant strategy. So I have
[26:31] enormous respect for what they do and
[26:33] what they do to us and I really see them
[26:35] as active players in this drama. I wrote
[26:38] a book called Botney of Desire which
[26:39] really looked at how plants have
[26:42] mastered our desires as their as their
[26:45] evolutionary strategy. Desires for
[26:47] beauty in the case of flowers um desires
[26:50] for to change consciousness. Uh desires
[26:54] for food. So I have ultimate respect for
[26:57] their ingenuity. When you say they've um
[27:00] that plants have figured out, do you
[27:02] mean that that sticking with the you
[27:05] know the rule of evolution, you just
[27:06] want to make as much of you yourself as
[27:08] you possibly can?
[27:09] >> Yeah.
[27:10] >> In species that nurture young, nurture
[27:12] young, protect young, proliferate, die,
[27:15] repeat, right? I mean that's it's like a
[27:17] harsh way of thinking about it, but
[27:18] that's those are essentially the simple
[27:19] rules of evolution. try not to die. Try
[27:21] to at least live long enough to
[27:23] proliferate and make sure that the young
[27:24] make it to
[27:25] >> and in retrospect it looks like you
[27:27] figured something out. But in fact,
[27:28] you're just trying things and certain
[27:30] things work and the plants that you know
[27:32] had the most caffeine say um
[27:35] proliferated in a way the ones that had
[27:37] the least caffeine did not. Mhm. I mean,
[27:39] I think about dogs a lot cuz I love
[27:42] them. And I'm told that dogs descended
[27:46] from wolves that figured out that if
[27:48] they were kind enough and they were
[27:51] patient enough, they might get scraps of
[27:53] food and [clears throat] eventually that
[27:54] led to the domestication and the
[27:55] expansion of all these different breeds
[27:57] of dogs. I mean, I think that's
[27:58] essentially the story. So, and they're
[28:00] not getting together and having a
[28:02] little, you know, backroom conversation
[28:04] like we've almost got them. But, but
[28:06] they so and that's certainly been
[28:08] advantageous for the domestic dog. Um,
[28:10] they're very well treated, better than
[28:12] some humans, in fact.
[28:13] >> Yeah. And there are only 50,000 wolves
[28:15] left in this country. And how many dogs
[28:16] are there? It was a good strategy,
[28:18] >> right? Yeah. And and I feel like more
[28:20] people have dogs now than when I was
[28:21] growing up.
[28:22] >> Well, co led to a lot of people getting
[28:25] dogs.
[28:26] >> Yeah. So it's it's most people don't get
[28:28] dogs to to do work. They get dogs to be
[28:30] family members. And so they're really
[28:32] they're really figuring stuff out. They
[28:34] [clears throat] got us.
[28:35] >> They got us. Um but this figuring stuff
[28:37] out thing is is as it relates to
[28:40] consciousness is um maybe it brings us
[28:42] back to the definitions. So does that
[28:44] mean that you don't have to have
[28:45] self-awareness that you're doing it?
[28:47] Plants probably don't realize they're
[28:48] doing this. They're just following a
[28:50] rule that's scripted into their genome.
[28:52] >> Um try and get resources, feel good, not
[28:54] pain in the moment. and proliferate take
[28:57] care of young and so forth. Yeah. So do
[28:59] you think that this consciousness like
[29:01] of plants or of dogs or of humans can
[29:04] emerge through the simple flipping of
[29:06] switches that are hardwired into us or
[29:09] do they have any say in this? Like do
[29:11] they realize um that they're doing
[29:14] better for the next generation? Because
[29:16] plants don't get to see what happens to
[29:19] their seeds. And in most cases, dogs
[29:22] don't really know what happens to their
[29:23] puppies once they're, you know, um,
[29:25] adopted out.
[29:27] >> Yeah.
[29:27] >> Humans are unique in this way.
[29:29] >> Oh, I think we are. I mean, I think we
[29:30] have a uh an awareness, a
[29:33] self-awareness, um, and a sense of, uh,
[29:36] you know, we can time travel. You know,
[29:38] your dog probably can time travel a few
[29:40] minutes or maybe a half hour if it's
[29:43] really hungry, you know. Um, but we have
[29:46] the ability to to imagine the future.
[29:48] Uh, even a future we're not in. Um,
[29:52] that's one of the things that's special
[29:53] about our consciousness. I mean, you
[29:55] know, well that our brains are doing a
[29:57] lot more than we're aware of, right? I
[29:59] mean, 24/7 they're monitoring our body,
[30:02] you know, reading these interosceptive
[30:03] signals and making adjustments and
[30:06] taking in things from the environment
[30:08] without our awareness. Um, so the
[30:10] question is why does anything have to
[30:13] rise to the level of awareness? Why why
[30:15] wasn't it all automated? I think that's
[30:17] one of the mysteries. The best
[30:20] explanation I heard of why that should
[30:23] be, and this is sort of an evolutionary
[30:25] just so story, but it's a pretty
[30:27] persuasive one, is because we are uh
[30:31] fundamentally social beings that live in
[30:33] a very and and and being in a human
[30:36] society is incredibly complex
[30:38] environment in which you can't program
[30:41] every move you have to make. There is a
[30:44] great evolutionary utility in being able
[30:46] to read the mind of another person and
[30:48] anticipate what they're going to do or
[30:50] say to predict. And um this is something
[30:54] that um you need theory of mind for or
[30:57] or imagination at the very least. And
[31:01] that strikes me as a pretty good
[31:03] explanation of why you would have gone
[31:06] beyond automatic response to something
[31:09] much more uh deliberate and aware and I
[31:12] don't think plants have that. But I do
[31:15] think that evolution um I really agree.
[31:19] Michael Leaven is a biologist at TUS uh
[31:21] who who works with you know creates
[31:24] little creatures you know organoids and
[31:26] um what he calls and he's shown that
[31:31] there are behaviors that are not
[31:33] dictated by the genes that um that what
[31:37] evolution creates is cognitive beings
[31:40] that are very good at solving novel
[31:42] problems. I mean a lot of his project is
[31:45] actually deemphasizing genes and showing
[31:47] that that uh and deemphasizing neurons
[31:50] too. You know he he also shows that that
[31:53] [laughter]
[31:53] >> I accept all of biology. It just so
[31:55] happens I'm only trained to understand
[31:57] the the brain stuff.
[31:58] >> Well he's you know he's shown that um
[32:00] memory resides in not necessarily in in
[32:03] neurons there other other way. Yeah.
[32:06] >> Yeah. The immune system is a good
[32:07] example. He looks at bioelectric fields
[32:10] and that these can hold memories uh in
[32:12] in groups of cells and that these
[32:14] xenobots that he creates
[32:17] uh from and he he he does this with um
[32:19] taking uh skin cells from tadpoles and
[32:22] he puts it in a solution and they clump
[32:24] together and they form a new organism.
[32:26] It only lasts about a week or two. And
[32:28] that organism repurposes their psyia so
[32:32] they can have a means of locomotion and
[32:35] they can be conditioned and navigate
[32:36] mazes. There's nothing in their genes
[32:39] that's in encoding those instructions.
[32:42] Anyway, it's it's taken them to a very
[32:44] odd place in biology. You know, we used
[32:46] to hear a lot about the word instinct.
[32:48] It's funny, you don't hear about it
[32:49] nearly as much anymore.
[32:50] >> Yeah, you're right. And I think that
[32:52] there are things going on that are are
[32:54] um products of just an intelligent a
[32:57] being with enough tools and and
[32:59] cognitive ability to navigate an
[33:02] unfamiliar world. That's what it takes
[33:04] to survive in in evolution. When Caesar
[33:07] Milan, the dog whisperer, came on this
[33:09] podcast, he uh he said because he came
[33:12] from a very uh poor uh rural background,
[33:15] but he said, you know, people who grow
[33:16] up in that environment um have
[33:18] incredible instincts about what is safe,
[33:21] what's not safe. You know, he saw a lot
[33:22] of death from a young age.
[33:24] >> Uh people died every day. Um and you
[33:26] know, stakes were very high. Um and
[33:28] resources were low. And he said, you
[33:30] know, that you see a completely
[33:32] different side of humans. And it's not
[33:33] all bad. I mean that's the bad stuff
[33:35] that drives the emergence. Also some
[33:37] really beautiful stuff like you said you
[33:40] kids grow up learning where safe harbor
[33:42] is in in people and they they can really
[33:46] sense people and animals very well in a
[33:48] way that in um more affluent societies
[33:51] we we have all these buffers you know um
[33:54] and and it struck me as like okay that's
[33:57] super interesting because I feel like
[33:59] >> as a neuroscientist I think of okay
[34:00] there are parts of the brain that are
[34:02] purely autonomic taking care of heart
[34:03] rate there's stuff that switches like if
[34:05] we activate it people go into a age. No
[34:07] one likes to think about this, but yes,
[34:08] for them to this would happen. But then
[34:10] there's all the other stuff that's make,
[34:12] you know, where we can control our
[34:13] impulses and um think about past,
[34:15] present, and future and build
[34:17] technologies and it's a quotequote
[34:18] evolved stuff. It's just, you know,
[34:20] higher order what whatever the language
[34:22] never quite works, you know, um always
[34:23] makes it sound hierarchical cuz I would
[34:25] die in the environment that uh Cesar was
[34:28] describing, right? Um so higher order
[34:31] isn't fair. But in any case, I feel like
[34:34] this damn prefrontal cortex expansion
[34:36] that happened in humans. Here's here's
[34:39] where I get really I lose a lot of sleep
[34:41] over this. And you're [clears throat]
[34:42] the perfect person to ask this. I've
[34:43] asked a few guests,
[34:44] >> but um I have this big problem lately,
[34:48] which is I think that
[34:50] >> I know that humans got a lot more
[34:52] prefrontal cortex real estate, the area
[34:54] that lets us strategy set, understand
[34:56] context, integrate, imagine. Great. But
[34:59] I worry that it's that we have enough of
[35:02] it that we perhaps have tricked
[35:04] ourselves into over um investing in our
[35:08] own importance and our and actually the
[35:12] whole
[35:14] meaning and of being here and and here's
[35:16] where it gets to the microbiome. I'll
[35:18] try and make this very quick. Justin
[35:20] Sonnenberg, my colleague who you know at
[35:23] Stanford working on the microbiome
[35:24] scared
[35:25] >> I want to say the out of me but
[35:27] then pun no pun intended
[35:28] >> when he said you know these microbiota
[35:30] that live in all of us and create these
[35:32] critical chemicals for brain health and
[35:34] it can impact our behavior whether or
[35:36] not we feel sick or more energetic more
[35:38] outgoing I mean there's this incredible
[35:40] array of ways they influence us
[35:42] >> he said when we shake hands like we did
[35:44] today the second time in our lives or
[35:47] when we um you know if we kiss our
[35:50] romantic partner or if we um you know
[35:53] exchange a bill or a credit card swipe
[35:55] or something at with microbiome is
[35:57] proliferating and moving and I get
[36:00] really worked up lately in my own head
[36:02] about the possibility that all this
[36:03] stuff like trying to go to Mars um
[36:06] trying to uh navigate the political
[36:09] barbed wire that is the United States
[36:11] and the world right now wars all of it I
[36:15] worry that all of it is just the damn
[36:18] and microbiota trying us to trying to
[36:21] get us to interact with as many other
[36:23] people as possible and they aren't
[36:25] sitting there chuckling um cackling
[36:29] thinking about how we are losing out uh
[36:31] and suffering or feeling great while we
[36:35] do this but I just worry that perhaps
[36:37] Sonnenberg's theory is right which is
[36:40] we're literally just vehicles and that
[36:44] >> keeps me up at night I confess it does
[36:46] >> really
[36:47] >> but it also keeps me up at night because
[36:50] I can only have that thought, that
[36:52] concern because of this excessive
[36:53] prefrontal cortex real estate.
[36:55] Otherwise, I would just be busy trying
[36:56] to get my food and nourishment
[36:58] proliferate and so on. So, that's two.
[37:01] So, it sort of bookends the two sort of
[37:03] levels of quote unquote sophistication
[37:05] like higher order brain function in
[37:07] humans, building technologies,
[37:09] creativity, symphonies, spaceships,
[37:13] poetry, and on and on. We think it's so
[37:15] important and it is,
[37:17] >> but whatever we're diluting ourselves,
[37:19] it's all just about
[37:21] >> getting the these microbiota getting us
[37:24] to get them where they want to go.
[37:26] >> You know, they've been around a lot
[37:27] longer than we have, right? I mean, we
[37:29] evolved in a world dominated by bacteria
[37:32] and other microbes. And um so from their
[37:36] perspective, I think it's a perspectival
[37:38] question, but from their perspective,
[37:40] this animal comes along that offers
[37:43] certain advantages like can go all over
[37:47] the world um and maybe to outer space if
[37:51] they want to go there. I don't think
[37:52] they'll do very well there. But so
[37:54] there's a sense in which it's true, but
[37:56] it's also true that we're calling the
[37:58] shots in some ways from our perspective.
[38:00] But it but we should realize I mean
[38:03] that's the subtitle of botney desire was
[38:05] a plant's eye view of the world and
[38:07] there is a perspective and it's just as
[38:10] legitimate um in which we are dupes
[38:14] [laughter] of these bacteria and that
[38:17] yes they want us to shake hands. They
[38:19] want us to do all sorts of things
[38:21] because that this extends their their
[38:23] range and they want us to be sociable
[38:25] too. you know, if we were all, you know,
[38:27] kind of shy and introverted, it would
[38:29] not serve their purposes. And they are
[38:31] influencing our moods. So, it is kind of
[38:34] creepy in a way, but it's also kind of
[38:36] beautiful that, you know, we don't, you
[38:38] know, that that life is using us and and
[38:41] um uh that we are a collective being
[38:45] too. I mean we are we are a super
[38:47] organism you know and we have we have
[38:51] you know more genes more bacterial genes
[38:54] in our body than we have human genes and
[38:56] we need those genes that's the other
[38:58] thing I mean the other story about it is
[39:00] you could also argue that we are
[39:03] manipulating them in that we have
[39:06] outsourced the and Justin's done really
[39:09] good work on this u we have outsourced
[39:12] the making of all sorts of metabolites
[39:15] bacterial metabolites, chemicals we
[39:17] need. Um, glutamate, GABA, serotonin,
[39:21] um, I mean, they're making and and then
[39:23] all these short- chain fatty acids that
[39:25] are a fuel for our brain, but also are
[39:28] um, calming our moods, you know,
[39:31] reducing our anxiety.
[39:34] So, instead of learning how to make
[39:36] those chemicals ourselves, we kind of
[39:38] ingeniously figured out that we could
[39:39] host these bacteria and they would make
[39:41] them for us. So, we're manipulating them
[39:43] at the same time they're manipulating
[39:45] us. I think it's a two-way street.
[39:46] >> Okay, that's a fair touch.
[39:48] >> Hope that helps you sleep.
[39:49] >> Yeah. Well, yes. I maybe if we don't
[39:51] make it to Mars, it will be because it
[39:53] will be because
[39:55] >> they don't want to go.
[39:55] >> They get they get up there and they make
[39:57] people very sick and they die and they
[39:59] and it So, in that sense, um maybe it
[40:02] better or worse for everyone. Who knows?
[40:04] I I don't have any theories about how
[40:05] this should all go.
[40:07] >> See, space food is very bad for
[40:09] bacteria, right? It's it's incredibly
[40:10] sanitary. It's it talk about
[40:13] ultrarocessed food. This, you know, the
[40:14] kind of stuff they bring on on
[40:16] intergalactic travel is going to be
[40:18] really bad for the bacteria.
[40:20] >> Yeah. So, if we don't make it, it's
[40:22] bacteria know that they don't want to
[40:24] make it there. Not good for them.
[40:26] >> They know it's they know Mars is a
[40:28] shitty habitat.
[40:29] >> Exactly. I'm only half kidding about
[40:31] this one and I'm going to try and steer
[40:33] off it so that I don't, you know, spiral
[40:34] into the the concern about it because
[40:37] it's not really a concern. I think that
[40:40] it gets to another layer perhaps of this
[40:43] consciousness question which is about
[40:44] meaning. You know, part of the function
[40:47] of the prefrontal cortex is that we can
[40:49] assign meaning to things,
[40:51] >> right? Like we both like Wendelberry,
[40:53] >> you know him better than I do, but we
[40:54] both have feelings associated with
[40:56] memories. I I can go as deep into this
[40:59] as as I'll allow myself to. Like I like
[41:02] the feeling of the paper like is
[41:04] different for a Wendel Berry poem only
[41:05] because that was my experience. So I can
[41:07] place all this meaning on top of things
[41:09] and that's related to memory and so on.
[41:12] And
[41:13] >> we don't know that other species do
[41:15] that, right? Um I like to think dogs and
[41:18] cats and apes do that.
[41:20] >> Elephants perhaps.
[41:21] >> Yeah. Um we know self versus other.
[41:25] Yeah, I mean I I try and break it down
[41:27] to that because I saw this um one of
[41:29] these beautiful nature documentaries
[41:31] where they were essentially talking
[41:32] about these male lions fighting and you
[41:34] know their hypothalamus looks a lot like
[41:35] ours and we know the structure
[41:37] ventromedial hypothalamus a subset of
[41:39] neurons there if you know mice have
[41:41] them, we have them, they have them and
[41:43] these two male lions are basically
[41:45] trying to kill each other. But then
[41:46] there's another scene where one is
[41:48] getting attacked by hyenas and all of a
[41:50] sudden a different switch gets flipped
[41:52] where the lion who was just arguably
[41:56] should let the other one die understands
[41:58] this us them thing and goes and
[42:01] essentially fights them off and and it's
[42:03] very dramatic and the hyenas are the
[42:05] hyenas are trying to castrate the lions.
[42:07] It's like a It's as brutal as nature
[42:09] gets in that moment, but also as
[42:10] beautiful as it gets because it
[42:12] illustrates that two members of the same
[42:14] species that are trying to kill each
[42:16] other when one is under threat, all of a
[42:18] sudden the contingency changes. Yeah.
[42:20] >> So they have enough prefrontal cortex to
[42:22] take the same circuitry. It's still
[42:23] aggression and now directed in a new
[42:26] >> but they redefine the us, right? The the
[42:29] eye is now plural.
[42:30] >> Yeah. So it's dynamic. And the reason
[42:32] I'm asking this, I'd love your thoughts
[42:33] on this,
[42:34] >> but I'm seing a question about
[42:37] collective consciousness. And and so
[42:39] this us thing within and across species
[42:42] to me feels like a a critical gate for
[42:46] for getting closer to understanding what
[42:48] is consciousness, at least for me. Maybe
[42:50] I'm too simplistic about it. I mean, I
[42:52] guess I'd attack it from another
[42:54] direction, which is, you know, you've
[42:55] been talking about the cortex and yeah,
[42:58] the cortex is very cool and we have a
[43:00] lot of that real estate and that's sort
[43:02] of what sets us apart and for a long
[43:04] time it was believed that consciousness
[43:06] surely as this advanced human
[43:09] achievement because remember we didn't
[43:11] think anybody else was conscious for
[43:13] hundreds of years, right? Since Decart,
[43:15] we had a monopoly on consciousness. It's
[43:18] only I think in 1970 the first
[43:20] experiment mirror test uh on a on a
[43:24] chimp and we started thinking oh these
[43:26] primates are conscious also. I mean we
[43:29] that's a fairly recent that's 50 years
[43:31] ago 55 years ago.
[43:33] >> It was assumed that consciousness was a
[43:35] cortical phenomenon.
[43:37] There is another line of research though
[43:39] that I've been that I was persuaded by
[43:42] um starting with Antonio Damasio in the
[43:46] '9s and going through Mark SS more
[43:48] recently uh he's a South African
[43:51] psychiatrist and neuroscientist
[43:54] who's a kind of protege of Damasios uh
[43:57] suggesting that actually consciousness
[43:59] doesn't begin with thought in the cortex
[44:01] but with feeling in the brain stem or
[44:03] feelings registered in the brain stem
[44:05] and the reason we have consciousness
[44:07] according to this theory is um because
[44:11] there are these homeostatic set points
[44:13] and and that the well back up a little
[44:16] the brain exists to keep the body alive.
[44:18] We forget that we often think the body
[44:19] you because we love the brain. You know,
[44:21] we're cerebrocentric in so many ways and
[44:24] the body has to communicate with the the
[44:27] brain and it does it through feelings
[44:29] like hunger and warmth or cold and itch
[44:32] and and all these kind of what they call
[44:35] homeostatic feelings that register in
[44:38] the upper brain stem and the cortex only
[44:41] gets involved afterward. So you register
[44:44] this sensation of hunger and then the
[44:47] cortex helps you visualize a meal or
[44:49] where you might get food or how you
[44:51] might get or how to book a table in a
[44:52] restaurant whatever it is that changes
[44:55] things in in many ways. If indeed this
[44:58] is true and feelings
[45:01] have to be felt, right? I mean, a
[45:05] feeling implies consciousness. It
[45:07] doesn't solve the hard problem or
[45:09] anything. I think feelings have a
[45:10] different status than thoughts do. I
[45:13] think they're sematic. I think that
[45:14] they're reinforced by just having a
[45:17] body. And if that's true, then first of
[45:20] all, lots more animals are conscious,
[45:22] right? I mean, everybody's got a brain
[45:24] stem. Not everybody, but a whole lot of
[45:27] species have brain stems, whereas cortex
[45:29] is kind of more exclusive club
[45:31] >> and um uh I found that a very uh
[45:35] persuasive way to think about
[45:37] consciousness and that it starts with uh
[45:40] feelings in the body and a lot of what
[45:43] the brain is doing is interpreting those
[45:45] feelings because they're inco. They're
[45:47] just signals, right? William James wrote
[45:49] about this. He said, you know, first
[45:51] there's the the spike in heart rate and
[45:53] then there's and then the brain says
[45:55] fear
[45:56] >> and so there's this communication going
[45:58] and and the cortex might get involved in
[46:00] that process. But pain, for example, is
[46:03] a conscious phenomenon that doesn't
[46:05] require a cortex. Their evidence for
[46:07] this is people who have no cortex,
[46:10] right? U some children are born without
[46:14] one. They've decorticated animals and
[46:17] they find they still have even though
[46:18] they can't report emotion they have
[46:21] evidence of, you know, based on
[46:23] expressions and behaviors that they're
[46:24] that they're having conscious
[46:26] experience. So for me that changed the
[46:28] whole way of thinking about it. You
[46:31] know, this remains to be proven in
[46:33] various ways and it doesn't solve this
[46:35] issue of okay, well, how does a feeling
[46:36] come to be felt and who's feeling it?
[46:38] What's the is there a self that's
[46:40] feeling it? And I find Damasio not
[46:43] satisfying on that question. He he'll he
[46:45] he'll say well um and in his new book he
[46:49] says this that feelings are
[46:50] spontaneously conscious and that's
[46:53] that's an an it's not really a
[46:55] satisfactory answer.
[46:57] >> It's hard to wrap my head around that
[46:58] answer.
[46:58] >> Spontaneous is doing a lot of work
[47:00] there.
[47:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. No discredit to him. He's
[47:03] done amazing work. Yeah. No, no, I'm not
[47:05] saying you are, but just I think
[47:07] >> he's directed the whole field to the
[47:09] importance of feelings and and that's
[47:10] produced really important work and and
[47:12] emotion science and and things like
[47:14] that. Yeah. You know, he's a real
[47:15] pioneer.
[47:17] >> I'd like to take a quick break and
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[48:35] I feel like the one of the challenges of
[48:38] being human is that people experience
[48:40] the world differently enough. It seems
[48:43] uh right at the level of emotions. Let's
[48:45] just use that as an example. Some people
[48:49] I've actually seen this in comments on
[48:50] Instagram, so it has to be true, right?
[48:52] Um, no, but somebody once said [snorts]
[48:54] in in a comments and it really stuck
[48:55] with me, you know, that they think in
[48:57] feels. And I thought, this sounds like a
[48:59] bunch of woo stuff. But I thought maybe
[49:02] some people really do experience things
[49:04] more sematically. Okay, check that box.
[49:07] I totally accept that.
[49:08] >> And maybe the language labels of emotion
[49:11] for one person are more crude than for
[49:13] another. Lisa Feldman Barrett verified
[49:15] that in cultures where there are many
[49:17] many different
[49:19] >> words for types of sadness. I think that
[49:20] she told me that the that in Japan
[49:23] there's a specific word for the type of
[49:25] sadness that you experience when you got
[49:26] a bad haircut. [laughter]
[49:28] >> I love it.
[49:29] >> Amazing. Which also helps people avoid
[49:33] global statements like I'm feeling
[49:34] depressed when in fact they're feeling
[49:36] low. And when they say they're depressed
[49:38] in certain cultures it really means they
[49:40] are depressed. So nuance is is very
[49:43] important but that's coming top down
[49:44] through language
[49:45] >> and that's how culture interacts with
[49:46] biology right I mean you know there
[49:48] different ways to interpret the same
[49:50] sensations. I think we learn this with
[49:52] uh you know when you have kids when
[49:54] they're when they melt down
[49:57] they don't know if they're hungry or
[49:59] tired and the parent has to teach them
[50:02] you know you you need to eat.
[50:05] Yeah. And we see this with kids. They're
[50:07] getting the signals, but they don't have
[50:09] the mental equipment, the cortical
[50:10] equipment to interpret what's going on.
[50:13] >> And so then the question is, are the
[50:15] signals from the body crude or refined?
[50:18] I'm I'm not denying their importance.
[50:19] They're critically important. But we
[50:21] can't really look to the nerve networks
[50:23] and say, okay, the brain is
[50:24] sophisticated and the and the neural
[50:27] intervation to and from the body is um
[50:30] not sophisticated. I mean, it's as
[50:32] precise and as the other. So the problem
[50:37] seems to be that we don't have language
[50:38] for it. So like if I'm feeling
[50:41] wholeheartedly
[50:43] full of joy, that's an easy one. If I'm
[50:46] feeling happy, I mean I can I can change
[50:48] my language, my expression, etc. But
[50:51] where I would I think neuroscience
[50:53] really needs some help and I think
[50:55] you're helping the the conversation
[50:57] which will inform experiments is how is
[51:00] it that the body is communicating with
[51:01] the brain in ways that get us away from
[51:04] language labels because language labels
[51:06] are we created those.
[51:09] >> Yeah.
[51:09] >> Right. This is very important. I think
[51:11] like we made that up. Grunts um you know
[51:14] uh exhales around putrid smells and
[51:16] inhales around pleasant smells. That's
[51:18] that's the those are the core components
[51:20] of of language. I mean words are just
[51:23] shaped exhales after all, right? Which
[51:25] is amazing. Uh by the way, I didn't come
[51:27] up with that statement. Uh Eddie Chang,
[51:29] chair of neurosurgery at UCSF,
[51:31] >> who studies speech and language is my
[51:32] childhood friend. He said, you know, he
[51:34] said it like like Eddie, you know, he's
[51:36] very calm, you know, he's a
[51:37] neurosurgeon. He said, you know, all
[51:39] speech is just shaped exhales. And I was
[51:42] like, oh my goodness, amazing. When you
[51:44] just think it's so wild, but then we
[51:46] come up with many shaped
[51:48] >> what we what we've done with it.
[51:49] >> I know. It's incredible. It's
[51:51] incredible. And yet we don't know the
[51:53] language of the body.
[51:56] >> Movement. Yes. But so this is where I
[51:58] feel like the consciousness problem is
[52:00] perhaps a little stuck.
[52:02] >> Yeah, I think you're right.
[52:03] >> Like and pain is one example. Pleasure
[52:05] is another. But at the extremes it's
[52:07] easy. But in day-to-day
[52:09] experience outside of those extremes,
[52:12] it's it's very hard to like what's going
[52:14] on right now. I don't know. I mean, my
[52:16] body isn't in pain, but it's I'm not in
[52:19] rapture either.
[52:20] >> But your you know, your vag nerve, which
[52:22] connects the visceral organs to your to
[52:24] your brain, is um sending this stream of
[52:28] information. I think 80% of the traffic
[52:30] is going from body to brain, not the
[52:33] other way around.
[52:33] >> Point the neuroscientist. I teach neuro
[52:35] anatomy. You're you're right. It's 80.
[52:36] So incredible. Yeah, the descending
[52:38] projection is about 15 20. Nobody knows
[52:40] for sure. So you're bang on. So and most
[52:42] people when they talk about the
[52:43] neuroscience, they get some things
[52:44] right. You're bang on. So I just want to
[52:46] be clear to you like you're exact on
[52:49] every neuroscience point you've made.
[52:50] You're exactly right.
[52:51] >> Thank you. That means a lot coming from
[52:53] you. Um so what do those signals look
[52:56] like? I mean how raw are they? I mean um
[52:59] and uh you know
[53:03] stress hormones released you know
[53:06] through inflammation you know change
[53:08] mood get get to the brain right um I
[53:11] forget which ones they are and then
[53:13] suddenly make us feel threatened the
[53:16] path I think it's really complicated I
[53:18] you know I think there's some very
[53:20] precise information reaching the brain
[53:22] but I also think
[53:24] >> it needs a brain to interpret it
[53:27] >> c can we talk about the time scale of
[53:29] all this because so it's pretty
[53:31] straightforward to think about us them
[53:34] um
[53:36] body versus mind and I'm wondering
[53:39] whether the body is communicating with
[53:41] the brain at a time scale that we that
[53:45] doesn't match to language for instance
[53:47] maybe how I feel right now and how you
[53:49] feel right now actually reflects the
[53:51] integration of everything that happened
[53:53] over the last 10 hours for you and So
[53:57] how how your brain is operating right
[54:00] now reflects that. Like when we when I
[54:02] think of brain um body communication, I
[54:05] immediately want to default to like the
[54:07] now. What's my body feeling now? How
[54:09] does it impact my brain? But maybe the
[54:11] signals
[54:12] >> are of long time scales. Maybe they
[54:14] integrate across my spleen, my stomach,
[54:17] and my heart
[54:18] >> and then my, you know, my liver and my
[54:20] pancreas are sending another message.
[54:22] Like we don't know any of this.
[54:24] >> No, I know. And I it excites me as you
[54:26] you can probably tell because
[54:29] I feel like there in lie the answers to
[54:31] like being able to parse this experience
[54:34] of life consciousness thing.
[54:35] >> I'm really struck by the fact that you
[54:37] know we we we locate our seed of feeling
[54:40] and emotion in our heads most of us most
[54:42] of the time. But if you go back in
[54:44] history, they talked as much about the
[54:47] spleen and they the liver and the heart
[54:50] and that emotions they they understood
[54:53] something about emotions was coming from
[54:55] the body. My favorite example is uh an
[54:58] experiment was was done on moral
[55:00] judgment and disgust moral disgust. They
[55:04] had two groups of people. One they gave
[55:07] they each were given a pill, one got a
[55:09] placebo, one got ginger, powdered
[55:11] ginger. They then uh exposed people to
[55:17] um really morally repellent scenarios in
[55:20] writing about incest and and um uh just
[55:24] really disgusting um uh scenarios,
[55:27] eating one's dog, things like that.
[55:30] >> And um the people who had taken the
[55:33] ginger were less judgmental
[55:38] because their stomachs were calmed.
[55:40] Ginger calms the stomach. And so the
[55:43] emotion of moral disgust is somehow we
[55:46] are passing it through. We're doing a
[55:48] gut check on it. We're passing it
[55:50] through our digestive organs somehow.
[55:53] And that you can manipulate with
[55:56] something as simple as ginger, people's
[56:00] moral judgment. So that that says to me
[56:02] this whole system is a lot more
[56:04] integrated than I think we even realize.
[56:07] And that the more I learn about this,
[56:09] the the whole idea of separating mind
[56:12] and body, you know, brain and body is is
[56:16] taking us down the wrong way. That that
[56:18] these things are inextricably bound up
[56:20] in ways that are just too complex for us
[56:23] to get. I mean, that's an obvious, you
[56:24] know, that's a pretty obvious case
[56:26] because disgust is both a moral and a
[56:29] physical um sensation or feeling, but I
[56:34] bet it applies to other things as well.
[56:35] It's a disgusting but uh yeah, pun
[56:38] intended but um elegant example of how
[56:41] this can work.
[56:41] >> Well, it's kind of brilliant as you know
[56:43] someone thinking up an experiment. I was
[56:45] like, "Oh, what a good idea."
[56:47] >> Yeah, good experiment. I like
[56:48] experiments that bridge this kind of
[56:50] higher order like like moral disgust,
[56:52] you know, is a cortical thing we assume.
[56:54] Although
[56:56] >> it clearly involves um you know, other
[56:58] circuitries. It makes sense. Ginger
[57:01] calms calms the gut. too. Um, and I know
[57:03] if I have some minor pain like a like a
[57:05] back strain or something, I'm much less
[57:07] patient.
[57:08] >> Yeah.
[57:08] >> I, um, I look at the world differently.
[57:10] Um, and I think we all become more, um,
[57:14] self-centric
[57:16] >> when we're in pain, when we feel good.
[57:18] It's easier to allocate resources to
[57:20] what's out there. Maybe that takes us a
[57:22] little bit to psychedelics um, and
[57:24] collective consciousness. You know, one
[57:26] of the things that I'm um excited by uh
[57:29] is that I'm old enough now to have heard
[57:33] about the counterculture of the 60s,
[57:35] >> grown up in its wake, um experienced
[57:38] this health, wellness, public education
[57:40] thing that I do, touched into science
[57:43] and and living in California, you know,
[57:45] I've spent some a little bit of time at
[57:48] read read some books and getting to know
[57:50] folks across these generations and a lot
[57:53] of themes repeat themselves. And one of
[57:55] the themes that I think we need to
[57:56] overcome is the lack of adequate
[57:58] language or dismissing language that can
[58:01] act as a barrier rather than a conduit
[58:04] for for understanding. So for instance,
[58:06] the words collective consciousness
[58:09] years ago were about like one love.
[58:11] >> Yeah.
[58:12] >> Right. And that didn't work um in terms
[58:14] of convincing people to live in peace
[58:17] with all other humans and animals
[58:19] clearly. Sadly. So that doesn't mean
[58:22] collective consciousness isn't worth
[58:24] thinking about. But just like we say,
[58:26] you know, breath work is too broad a
[58:27] term and um any I don't like anything
[58:31] that's so that lumps so much that you
[58:33] lose critical um critical information.
[58:37] So if I say collective consciousness, I
[58:40] want to be clear. I'm not talking about
[58:41] one love. Although that's a great goal.
[58:44] Wicked peace on earth would be nice. I
[58:45] don't I don't know that I'm going to see
[58:46] it in my lifetime. I'm
[58:48] >> getting frustrated. Probably not, but
[58:50] I'll hold out hope.
[58:52] >> We're going the wrong way.
[58:53] >> It's it's it's tough. It's it's it's
[58:55] tough. I I have to say it's um uh too
[58:59] many repeating themes of the sort that I
[59:01] wouldn't like to see um are are visible.
[59:04] But
[59:05] >> so, how do you define collective
[59:06] consciousness?
[59:07] >> Well, I've heard the term,
[59:08] >> right? And when I think about it, I've
[59:10] not been to Burning Man, but I think
[59:11] about people who are trying to set aside
[59:15] miism.
[59:16] >> Yeah.
[59:17] in day-to-day interactions so that
[59:20] everybody wins. It's this notion of
[59:21] everybody wins,
[59:22] >> right?
[59:23] >> And then I kind of try and pressure test
[59:26] that a little bit and say, is there a
[59:28] version of collective consciousness
[59:30] everybody wins that's based on truth
[59:33] >> that's not based on lies? I think that's
[59:35] where it failed because people are
[59:38] people and there are bad humans, there
[59:41] are good humans, but it's a continuum
[59:44] and people are fundamentally
[59:46] self-interested until they're okay and
[59:48] then they can take care of others. I
[59:49] think that's true of essentially all
[59:51] humans.
[59:52] >> How can we get to a collective
[59:54] consciousness embracing the idea that
[59:56] I'm me, you're you, we could work
[59:58] together, but we have to also
[59:59] acknowledge the truth that you have
[1:00:00] self-interest and I have self-interest.
[1:00:02] And that's where I feel like if there's
[1:00:04] if there's hope, it's about acknowledge.
[1:00:06] Like we can't ourselves into
[1:00:07] thinking one love. We can't all take LSD
[1:00:09] and expect to get there. In fact, I
[1:00:11] think that would make things worse.
[1:00:13] Maybe, maybe better. Who knows? But it's
[1:00:15] not going to solve the problem. So, I'm
[1:00:16] throwing out a huge can of worms here,
[1:00:18] but how do you think about this
[1:00:20] collective consciousness thing? How
[1:00:22] perhaps should it be redefined? Is it
[1:00:25] about living in peace and harmony as a
[1:00:28] species with other species? Is that what
[1:00:30] it's really about? Um because I think
[1:00:32] anyone that takes psychedelics or who
[1:00:34] has a positive hope for humanity
[1:00:37] or both wants that.
[1:00:39] >> Yeah. So that's been the dream of
[1:00:43] psychedelics for a long time. Um that
[1:00:46] they would diminish the ego
[1:00:50] um and uh contribute to sort of
[1:00:53] pro-social feeling, a a sense of
[1:00:55] connection. um we're more alike than
[1:00:57] we're different. [snorts]
[1:01:00] You know, it doesn't always work. Um we
[1:01:04] have cases of ego dissolution and we
[1:01:06] have cases of ego inflation
[1:01:08] >> with with psychedelics.
[1:01:09] >> With psychedelics, some people
[1:01:10] >> Can you talk more about that? Yeah.
[1:01:11] >> Yeah. So,
[1:01:13] a very common uh phenomenon on on
[1:01:16] highdose psychedelics is the sense of
[1:01:19] losing a sense of self. Um I mentioned
[1:01:21] earlier that you can be conscious
[1:01:22] without a sense of self. And I've had
[1:01:25] that experience. I describe it in in two
[1:01:28] of my books um of highdose psilocybin.
[1:01:32] I suddenly saw myself
[1:01:35] um explode into this cloud of blue
[1:01:37] post-it notes that then fluttered to the
[1:01:39] ground and coalesed in this pool of blue
[1:01:43] paint. Beautiful. It was. And it was
[1:01:46] like that sounds scary. But in fact, it
[1:01:49] was like yes, I'm blue paint. That's
[1:01:51] what I am. And I was observing this
[1:01:54] though from this new perspective that
[1:01:56] wasn't me. It was completely objective,
[1:01:59] total equinimity.
[1:02:01] And when that happens and the ego is
[1:02:05] laid aside, there's no walls. The ego is
[1:02:08] a defensive structure. Um the self is a
[1:02:11] defense, right? It's it's as we were
[1:02:13] talking about us and them or me and me
[1:02:15] and them. You merge with something
[1:02:17] larger um because there's nothing to
[1:02:21] stand in the way. And some people merge
[1:02:23] with the divinity or the universe or or
[1:02:25] love or other people. In my case, it was
[1:02:28] a piece of music that the guide was
[1:02:30] playing this Bach uh cello unaccompanied
[1:02:33] cello suite. And I became this piece of
[1:02:36] music and it was the most beautiful
[1:02:37] experience of music I'd ever had. There
[1:02:40] was no subject object distinction. I was
[1:02:42] it. I wasn't listening to it. I was it.
[1:02:45] This is something that pushes you toward
[1:02:47] getting over ego consciousness which is
[1:02:49] at the root of a lot of the you know
[1:02:52] discord that we feel in the world.
[1:02:54] Obviously it's not a permanent state
[1:02:56] anyone can be in. But the the legacy of
[1:02:59] that experience is I am less I feel I
[1:03:04] have more perspective on my ego. I know
[1:03:07] when he's up to his old tricks, you
[1:03:09] know, when he's being too critical or
[1:03:11] aggressive or too self-interested, and I
[1:03:14] say, "Oh, that's my ego." And that's
[1:03:16] just one voice, and there are other
[1:03:17] voices I can listen to. And so, I think
[1:03:20] there's a value in having an experience
[1:03:22] of ego dissolution. Now, I hasten to say
[1:03:24] there are other ways to get there. Um,
[1:03:27] uh, meditators get there, too. Um, it's
[1:03:29] more work, but you can get there through
[1:03:31] meditation and transcend your sense of
[1:03:32] ego. uh experiences of awe which you can
[1:03:36] get from many different ways diminish
[1:03:39] your sense of ego in a way that I think
[1:03:41] is very pro-social. Um Derk Kelner who's
[1:03:43] a colleague of mine at at Berkeley does
[1:03:46] did this really he studies all he wrote
[1:03:47] a wonderful book on awe he did this cool
[1:03:50] experiment where he asked people to draw
[1:03:53] a picture of themselves just a stick
[1:03:55] figure on a piece of graph paper and
[1:03:57] then he gave them an experience of awe.
[1:03:59] He took them river rafting or something
[1:04:00] like that and then he had them do it
[1:04:02] again and they would they would draw a
[1:04:04] picture of themselves at like a third of
[1:04:05] the size um because their sense of self
[1:04:08] had been diminished in a very positive
[1:04:10] way. It felt very very good. We have
[1:04:13] such complicated paradoxical feelings
[1:04:15] about the ego and the self. We celebrate
[1:04:17] it in our society. We want our kids to
[1:04:20] have self um confidence and self
[1:04:24] asssurance and um and we worship self.
[1:04:27] But we also find that some of our
[1:04:30] happiest experiences are when we escape
[1:04:33] self, right? I mean it happens in sex.
[1:04:35] It happens experiences of awe, religious
[1:04:39] experience. It happens to people in
[1:04:40] church and synagogue all the time. So
[1:04:43] where are we on this? And that's why I
[1:04:45] don't think it's so simple to say that
[1:04:46] there's a collective consciousness. I
[1:04:49] think we toggle back and forth of
[1:04:51] getting trapped in self and and and of
[1:04:53] course self is really important having a
[1:04:55] sense of self. You wouldn't spend six
[1:04:57] years writing a book if you didn't know
[1:04:59] you were going to be the same person at
[1:05:01] the end of the six years and it would
[1:05:02] benefit you to have finished it. So we
[1:05:04] need that sense of self to get things
[1:05:06] done but it's also a trap and it
[1:05:08] distances us from people and makes us
[1:05:10] selfish and and uh so I I just don't
[1:05:12] think it's simple. There's another idea
[1:05:14] of collective consciousness of course
[1:05:15] that consciousness is a field exists
[1:05:18] outside us and we're we all take part in
[1:05:21] it. I came out of this experience of
[1:05:24] studying consciousness and looking at
[1:05:26] all the theories of consciousness. I
[1:05:29] don't want to give it away but we have
[1:05:30] no idea about consciousness
[1:05:32] really how it's how how brain matter
[1:05:35] generates consciousness if indeed that's
[1:05:37] how it happens. And there are people who
[1:05:39] doubt that's how it happens. It could be
[1:05:42] that the brain channels consciousness,
[1:05:44] right? I mean, that if you conceive of
[1:05:46] consciousness as like electromagnetic
[1:05:48] waves,
[1:05:50] >> um, brains are like radio receivers or
[1:05:52] TV receivers. You wouldn't you wouldn't
[1:05:54] look in the TV set for the woman who
[1:05:56] gave you the weather report. You know,
[1:05:58] she's not there. She's somewhere else.
[1:06:00] >> So, I don't know that that's true. But
[1:06:04] coming out of this experience of
[1:06:07] studying this, I don't dismiss an idea
[1:06:09] like that. I don't dismiss pansychism
[1:06:12] too. The idea that the particles in this
[1:06:14] table have some ity little bit of
[1:06:17] consciousness that somehow gets combined
[1:06:18] in conscious beings like us. You have to
[1:06:22] keep an open mind because our
[1:06:23] presumption that you know consciousness
[1:06:26] is an emergent property of brain
[1:06:28] complexity that idea is not it doesn't
[1:06:32] have much traction. So, so anyway, so
[1:06:36] maybe there is a field of consciousness
[1:06:38] that we we tune into. How do we prove
[1:06:40] it? You know, I mean, we were talking
[1:06:42] earlier about Kristoff Ko, who's a
[1:06:44] scientist we both greatly admire, and he
[1:06:46] was a a real physicalist, a materialist
[1:06:49] scientist who believed that it was all
[1:06:51] about the brains and uh and he was head
[1:06:54] of Allen Brain Institute for many years.
[1:06:57] He had a experience on Iawaska that he
[1:06:59] shared publicly. I'm not speaking out of
[1:07:02] school where he was absolutely convinced
[1:07:05] and remains convinced that um
[1:07:07] consciousness exists outside of brains.
[1:07:10] That's extraordinary for somebody of his
[1:07:13] experience to have come to that
[1:07:14] conclusion. And he and it's unshakable.
[1:07:17] >> I haven't had that experience. I'm not
[1:07:18] convinced of that the way he is, but um
[1:07:22] but I respect people who hold that idea
[1:07:25] now much more than I once did. I'm going
[1:07:28] to summarize something you said to make
[1:07:30] sure I I got it right, which is that you
[1:07:33] had a psychedelic experience. Many
[1:07:35] people who take psych psychedelics, not
[1:07:37] all, but many have an ego dissolution
[1:07:40] experience. It's um very tangible and
[1:07:44] rich inside of the psychedelic journey.
[1:07:46] There's an export to after the journey,
[1:07:49] but it doesn't fundamentally change your
[1:07:51] relationship to self at every moment in
[1:07:52] your waking life. No,
[1:07:54] >> I think that's important for people to
[1:07:55] hear because I think a lot of people
[1:07:56] think about people who take a lot of
[1:07:58] psychedelics and sort of fundamentally
[1:07:59] change. They can't go back to their
[1:08:01] prior self. So it allows it's a portal
[1:08:03] that you can go back into consciously.
[1:08:05] It's an awareness. Do I have that right?
[1:08:07] Okay.
[1:08:07] >> Yeah, that's exactly right. I um uh I
[1:08:10] just have a slightly different
[1:08:11] understanding of my ego. It's not like
[1:08:13] it's gone away.
[1:08:14] >> It's [clears throat] there when I need
[1:08:15] it.
[1:08:15] >> And then the other piece about
[1:08:16] consciousness inside versus outside, I
[1:08:18] think maybe it will be helpful for
[1:08:20] people. Certainly it is for me to think
[1:08:21] about um brains and inside outside stuff
[1:08:24] this way pit vipers can sense heat
[1:08:27] emissions we can't honeybees can see UV
[1:08:29] light we can't we experience all of life
[1:08:32] through a pretty narrow set of filters I
[1:08:35] think when people hear the
[1:08:37] electromagnetic energies in the world it
[1:08:38] sounds woo to some but it's anything but
[1:08:41] it's simply just for clarity uh sake
[1:08:44] certain wavelengths of light certain
[1:08:46] sound waves that we can detect
[1:08:48] mechanical touch chemical sensing combin
[1:08:50] bind to our experience. We're
[1:08:52] abstracting
[1:08:53] our visual image of each other sitting
[1:08:55] across this table. There's no
[1:08:56] >> and it's limited by our senses.
[1:08:58] >> That's right. I can only bring in what I
[1:08:59] can bring in. A different animal or even
[1:09:01] person would detect you differently. But
[1:09:04] the the whole idea is that I'm I'm
[1:09:06] putting all that together into an
[1:09:08] abstraction of Michael Pollen sitting
[1:09:09] here doing a podcast with me. So if in
[1:09:12] one model consciousness is an
[1:09:14] abstraction that's created within our
[1:09:16] brains. We combine electromagnetic
[1:09:18] energies whatever other faculties our
[1:09:20] neurons can um contribute to those
[1:09:22] meaning understanding combining with
[1:09:25] with whatever gut whatever and we create
[1:09:29] this consciousness experience. But
[1:09:31] you're saying there's another model
[1:09:34] where there's an energy out in outside
[1:09:37] of us that somehow we're detecting that
[1:09:41] is already a consciousness. And so it's
[1:09:44] we're not we're not abstracting it in
[1:09:47] our minds. It's literally entering
[1:09:50] through presumably our senses.
[1:09:52] >> Maybe there's an additional sense we're
[1:09:54] not even aware of and we're experiencing
[1:09:58] it, but it's literally out there. I
[1:10:01] don't experience you as a bunch of
[1:10:02] photons. I experience you as a human.
[1:10:04] Right?
[1:10:04] >> So I'm either putting it together inside
[1:10:06] or it's put together outside and gets um
[1:10:10] and gets recapitulated.
[1:10:11] >> These are called filter theories of
[1:10:13] consciousness and the implication of
[1:10:15] them. uh Henri Bericson the French
[1:10:17] philosopher was a exponent of this and
[1:10:20] Aldis Huxley um uh believed this and
[1:10:24] talked about it in doors of perception
[1:10:26] that he had h had some access to this
[1:10:28] field and and and for him it was
[1:10:31] psychedelics. It was a masculine
[1:10:32] experience that convinced him of this
[1:10:35] and the idea was that there's more
[1:10:37] consciousness out there than we can
[1:10:39] handle
[1:10:41] >> and that [clears throat] um there is a
[1:10:43] filter or what what Huxley called a
[1:10:46] reducing valve and it basically admits
[1:10:49] the what he called the measly trickle of
[1:10:51] consciousness we need to survive. God,
[1:10:54] that's brilliant because if we took in
[1:10:55] all the
[1:10:56] >> we would be overwhelmed
[1:10:57] >> all the wavelengths of light for
[1:10:58] instance, we wouldn't be able to see I'd
[1:11:00] be overwhelmed with whatever that would
[1:11:03] look like or feel like. I I can't use
[1:11:05] that.
[1:11:06] >> No, our senses are limiting. Uh they're
[1:11:08] not they're not as expansive as they
[1:11:10] might be. And and your example, the bees
[1:11:11] are right. There's all these spectrums
[1:11:13] of light we can't see. It's also worth
[1:11:16] remembering that it's it was only like
[1:11:17] what 120 or 150 years ago that we
[1:11:20] learned there was an electromagnetic
[1:11:22] field that you know that you could
[1:11:24] actually use to convey information and
[1:11:26] it's invisible. I mean that's pretty
[1:11:28] heady stuff right there. So their
[1:11:31] thinking is well there might be another
[1:11:33] field and didn't we just learn about
[1:11:35] this other um body system? There's lymph
[1:11:38] and blood and there's a third one. What
[1:11:39] is it called?
[1:11:40] >> There's like the sensitium thing. Yes,
[1:11:42] >> it's like a thin sheet that runs through
[1:11:44] the body that acupuncturists seem to
[1:11:46] have known about for a very long time.
[1:11:48] Um, acupuncture is getting tremendous
[1:11:50] validation from the rigorous science
[1:11:52] now.
[1:11:53] >> Yeah, the acupuncturists are all like,
[1:11:54] "Yeah, we were telling you about this."
[1:11:56] >> Yeah, certain sites can increase or
[1:11:57] decrease inflammation. Uh, Chufuma's lab
[1:12:00] at Harvard Med is doing beautiful work
[1:12:02] on this.
[1:12:02] >> It's fascinating. So, so we shouldn't
[1:12:04] limit ourselves. I mean it the idea
[1:12:06] we've discovered all there is to
[1:12:08] discover in terms of fields and
[1:12:09] consciousness it may look very
[1:12:12] different. So I was talking to Allison
[1:12:14] Gobnik who's another colleague in
[1:12:16] psychology at Berkeley and you know she
[1:12:18] was saying well you know [snorts]
[1:12:21] the hard problem we may decide that
[1:12:23] consciousness is not one thing and maybe
[1:12:25] that's our mistake and we did that with
[1:12:28] the vital exp that was going to the one
[1:12:31] thing that was going to explain life and
[1:12:33] flowist I forget what that was going to
[1:12:35] explain but energy or fire or something
[1:12:37] like that. So we tend when we have a
[1:12:40] mystery we tend to make it singular and
[1:12:44] sometimes the answer is breaking it up
[1:12:47] into parts
[1:12:49] >> and so maybe there's ego self and that's
[1:12:53] something and then maybe there's emotion
[1:12:57] and maybe self-reflection is something
[1:12:59] else entirely. I mean, I've thought
[1:13:01] about this with regard to AI. As we get
[1:13:04] these AIs, these chat bots that seem
[1:13:07] more and more uh to have a sense of
[1:13:10] self, say, you know, we call them agents
[1:13:12] because they act on their own interest.
[1:13:15] And so maybe it's possible to have an
[1:13:18] ego without being conscious because I
[1:13:20] don't think they're conscious. I don't
[1:13:22] know. We may be taking apart this idea
[1:13:24] at some point and maybe that'll help us
[1:13:26] to understand it.
[1:13:28] I'd like to take a quick break and
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[1:15:06] >> It's a super intriguing idea. I I
[1:15:09] sometimes wonder if AI will tell us what
[1:15:12] consciousness is in a way that we aren't
[1:15:14] able to solve. And some people might
[1:15:16] say, well, that's just very, you know,
[1:15:18] pro AI. But I mean, humans have been
[1:15:21] putting their heads together around
[1:15:22] these sets of problems for a long while.
[1:15:24] I do think we're at a new vista now.
[1:15:26] >> No, we're stuck. We're absolutely stuck.
[1:15:28] And the effort to make a conscious AI,
[1:15:30] which is underway. I mean there are
[1:15:31] there are individuals and some companies
[1:15:33] who are trying to make it conscious not
[1:15:35] just intelligent and those are not the
[1:15:37] same things. If they fail or succeed
[1:15:40] they're going to teach us important
[1:15:42] things about consciousness. For example,
[1:15:44] if it truly is about feelings and that's
[1:15:47] where consciousness originates feelings
[1:15:49] depend on having a body, a vulnerable
[1:15:52] body and possibly on our mortality.
[1:15:56] Are computers going to have feelings? I
[1:15:58] don't think so. And I think a computer
[1:16:00] simulation of a feeling is very
[1:16:02] different than a simulation of a thought
[1:16:04] which is as good as a real thought. You
[1:16:06] know, it can play chess or go or
[1:16:07] whatever.
[1:16:08] >> So if they succeed in making
[1:16:13] conscious AI, it'll it'll discount the
[1:16:15] feeling idea. I don't think they can. I,
[1:16:18] you know, as long as we're dealing with
[1:16:20] silicon computers, the idea that you
[1:16:22] could have a conscious uh computer is
[1:16:26] based on a faulty metaphor of the brain
[1:16:28] as a computer. And I mean, you know,
[1:16:30] enough neuroscience to to to see the
[1:16:34] yes, it does some computations, but take
[1:16:38] the distinction between hardware and
[1:16:40] software that doesn't really exist in
[1:16:41] brains. Well, that's a key thing about
[1:16:43] computers.
[1:16:44] >> And neurons are not just on or off.
[1:16:46] They're not simply transistors. They're
[1:16:48] affected by chemicals and oscillations.
[1:16:51] There's a wonderful quote from Norbert
[1:16:53] Weiner who said that the um the price of
[1:16:56] metaphor is eternal vigilance.
[1:16:58] And I think this metaphor of the brain
[1:17:00] is computer is is we're not being
[1:17:02] vigilant about that metaphor at all. I
[1:17:04] don't think I think it falls apart if
[1:17:06] you push on it. I also think computers
[1:17:08] are clearly not brains even in the most
[1:17:11] modern iterations of AI for the simple
[1:17:14] reason at least one simple reason which
[1:17:16] is our brains create memories in one or
[1:17:19] two structures but then they export them
[1:17:21] to a bunch of other areas and computers
[1:17:25] have a memory center distributed memory
[1:17:28] is you know doesn't exist in most
[1:17:30] computers now
[1:17:31] >> but also that memory makes a physical
[1:17:34] change in the brain right I mean you're
[1:17:35] And your brain's different than mine cuz
[1:17:37] it was pruned very differently because
[1:17:38] of life experiences.
[1:17:41] So if you had a computer where the
[1:17:42] hardware was being constantly changed,
[1:17:44] it would be useless.
[1:17:45] >> Yeah. There are these um issues in
[1:17:48] neuroscience that never really get
[1:17:50] resolved. One of the things that
[1:17:51] perplexing to me, maybe you have some
[1:17:52] insight on this, is there were two labs,
[1:17:54] Suma Tonagawa's lab at MIT, he's got a
[1:17:57] Nobel and Mark Mayfford's lab at
[1:17:58] Scripps.
[1:17:59] essentially ran the same experiment
[1:18:01] where they used an animal model where
[1:18:04] you could um the animals would learn
[1:18:06] something and then you could capture
[1:18:07] which neurons were activated during the
[1:18:09] learning and were critical for the
[1:18:10] expression of that behavior and you'd
[1:18:12] say neuron A B C D they fired in a
[1:18:15] certain order and it was those neurons
[1:18:16] you could and then you could go back and
[1:18:18] actually replay those neurons and you
[1:18:20] found that if you played them in the
[1:18:21] exact same sequence you got the same
[1:18:22] behavior.
[1:18:23] >> Here's the problem. you could play those
[1:18:25] neurons backwards or all at once and get
[1:18:27] the exact same behavior. So this throws
[1:18:30] a serious wrench into our understanding
[1:18:32] of the brain. The notion that you need
[1:18:33] things firing in a particular sequence
[1:18:35] was completely crapped on by those set
[1:18:38] of experiments. I mentioned the Nobel
[1:18:39] even though Susumu got it for
[1:18:41] immunology. He's a very smart guy.
[1:18:42] Mark's a very smart guy. So these papers
[1:18:45] have stood the test of time. But it
[1:18:47] would be like if I said, "Oh, you know,
[1:18:48] this is the the the keys that you play
[1:18:50] in a song and it sounds like the song or
[1:18:52] then I bang on all of them and you still
[1:18:54] get the song."
[1:18:55] >> So our whole notion of the temporal
[1:18:57] ordering of firing of neurons being
[1:19:00] important for for memories is like it's
[1:19:02] complete horseshit. It also turns out
[1:19:04] that every one of those neurons is
[1:19:06] participating in a bunch of other
[1:19:08] memories and so some of them are that's
[1:19:10] great because that's great allocation of
[1:19:12] of resources and redundancy but we can't
[1:19:14] we we just I don't want to say we don't
[1:19:16] understand the brain there so much
[1:19:17] beautiful work has been done over the
[1:19:18] last you know 50 hundred years
[1:19:20] incredible work but there is this
[1:19:22] problem like we don't really understand
[1:19:24] how the brain is encoding experiences
[1:19:27] even at that level and that's a problem
[1:19:30] >> yeah it's a huge problem well I don't
[1:19:32] know a lot about this but it sounds to
[1:19:34] me like a quantum effect that it's
[1:19:37] happening simultaneously.
[1:19:38] >> Tell me more about that.
[1:19:40] >> This is not my area of expertise. So
[1:19:42] anything you say will be new.
[1:19:43] >> Me neither. Okay. This is total amateur.
[1:19:45] I heard a talk by Mo Kaku the other day
[1:19:48] and uh he was talking about quantum
[1:19:50] computers and that they will um not work
[1:19:54] in a linear way one way after another
[1:19:56] after another. When they're solving a
[1:19:58] problem they'll do it all at once. Sim
[1:20:00] it's simultaneity. will be a hallmark of
[1:20:03] that. There's a whole school of thought
[1:20:06] that quantum physics may help explain
[1:20:09] consciousness. I I honestly don't
[1:20:11] understand it, but quantum mechanics
[1:20:14] have given us some very uh bizarre
[1:20:16] explanations of things such as
[1:20:18] entanglement. Um you know that two
[1:20:21] particles separated by light years can
[1:20:24] nevertheless affect one another. And so
[1:20:26] non-locality is and realism, they're
[1:20:29] gone. And in biology, we just go along
[1:20:32] as if they're still here because we
[1:20:34] can't deal with it. Quantum effects have
[1:20:38] been discounted in brains because they
[1:20:40] seem to we we think they only work at
[1:20:43] these tiny scales, but in fact they work
[1:20:45] at all scales. We also have questions
[1:20:48] about whether they work with a warm wet
[1:20:50] in a warm wet environment like a brain.
[1:20:53] You know, quantum computers have to be
[1:20:55] chilled to like nearly abs absolute
[1:20:58] zero. But I think that that is the next
[1:21:03] in the next 50 years, I think we'll be
[1:21:06] trying to figure out if what we know
[1:21:09] about quantum reality may have something
[1:21:12] to do with creating consciousness.
[1:21:14] >> That's as far as I can go. You know
[1:21:16] everything I know about it now.
[1:21:18] >> Amazing. I I mean I think um the brain
[1:21:20] is a receiver.
[1:21:21] >> I've heard that before. Today it really
[1:21:23] makes sense to me now that um based on
[1:21:25] how you described it. Can I ask about
[1:21:27] you? Uh, and can I get some advice from
[1:21:29] you? And can our listeners perhaps get
[1:21:31] some advice from you? Uh, you've written
[1:21:34] 10 books and I'm sensing a thread
[1:21:36] through all of them about the natural
[1:21:38] world, about us, how we how those relate
[1:21:41] >> and coming to some better understanding
[1:21:43] of self and relating to the world in a
[1:21:45] more
[1:21:46] >> benevolent way. That's that's my export,
[1:21:49] but I'm I know there's much more to you.
[1:21:51] But it dawned on me as we were sitting
[1:21:53] down, I I think the world knows very
[1:21:55] little about you. Maybe that's
[1:21:56] intentional, but I just want to know
[1:21:58] when you were younger, were you were you
[1:22:00] sort of intrigued by or drawn to flora
[1:22:03] and fauna? Were you sort of like
[1:22:05] thinking about the humans in a certain
[1:22:08] way? It it it just strikes me that you
[1:22:10] have a very um it's going to sound uh
[1:22:13] like a scientist said it, but a very
[1:22:14] interdigitated way of thinking about us
[1:22:17] them. like you understand the difference
[1:22:19] between a human and a plant and a and an
[1:22:22] animal, which is great, but you also
[1:22:25] find these incredible points of
[1:22:27] connectivity
[1:22:29] that are really geared towards
[1:22:31] self-standing and therefore helping the
[1:22:34] relationship. So, can you trace that
[1:22:36] back to like something in particular or
[1:22:40] is that just your or is this just
[1:22:42] downloaded into you? No, I so I started
[1:22:46] gardening at a very young age uh
[1:22:48] accidentally. I had an experience when I
[1:22:50] was four or five. I grew up on Long
[1:22:53] Island, suburban Long Island, and I
[1:22:56] loved watermelon. And like everybody
[1:22:59] thinking about the pits, you know, the
[1:23:00] seeds when you swallow them or don't
[1:23:02] swallow them. And and my mother would
[1:23:04] always encourage me to spit them out.
[1:23:06] And I did that. And I I took some
[1:23:08] watermelon seeds and I just covered it
[1:23:10] with dirt. I was like really young and
[1:23:12] then forgot about it. And that must have
[1:23:15] been May or June. And I came back in
[1:23:17] September and lo and behold there was a
[1:23:19] watermelon. It was like the size of a
[1:23:22] football but to me it was huge. I was
[1:23:24] just so blown away by this and it was it
[1:23:28] was just a you know formative moment.
[1:23:31] And I was so excited. I picked I picked
[1:23:35] it and I was running and we had a
[1:23:37] concrete patio behind our house and had
[1:23:40] to show my mom this this uh thing that
[1:23:44] I'd grown. I hadn't really done anything
[1:23:46] and I tripped and fell and the
[1:23:48] watermelon just completely splattered um
[1:23:51] all over the patio. But I went on I
[1:23:54] planted a garden when I was like eight
[1:23:56] next to the house. I called it a farm.
[1:23:58] Whenever I could grow three or four
[1:24:00] strawberries, I'd put them in a Dixie
[1:24:02] cup and sell them to my mom. So, it was
[1:24:04] a going concern. So, gardening was a
[1:24:07] really big part of it. And and you know,
[1:24:09] that puts you in relation to nature, an
[1:24:11] active relationship to nature. Most of
[1:24:13] us have a very kind of observer um type
[1:24:17] relationship. We admire it from a
[1:24:19] distance on vacation, you know. Um, but
[1:24:22] gardening thrusts you right in the
[1:24:24] middle of it and you have to make
[1:24:26] decisions. Uh, and
[1:24:30] that your plants have interests. You
[1:24:32] know, you're not the only interested
[1:24:33] creature here. Your plants have
[1:24:35] interests and to the extent you can
[1:24:37] satisfy their interest, they're going to
[1:24:39] give you what you're what you what you
[1:24:41] want. So that, you know, eventually
[1:24:44] years later, I wrote my first book was
[1:24:46] about that. And um I realized what was
[1:24:49] going on in the garden is no different
[1:24:51] than what goes on on the farm. So it was
[1:24:54] very easy to go from uh I started
[1:24:56] writing these essays about what was
[1:24:58] going on in my garden and using that as
[1:24:59] a laboratory. Americans generally go to
[1:25:02] the wilderness to think about nature or
[1:25:03] the desert or the forest. And I actually
[1:25:07] think the garden at this point is a a
[1:25:09] more valuable laboratory because we've
[1:25:12] saved all the land we're going to save.
[1:25:14] You know, I think 8% of the American uh
[1:25:16] landscape has been we've locked it up,
[1:25:18] thrown away the key, which is great.
[1:25:20] Although actually Trump's trying to open
[1:25:22] the lock again,
[1:25:23] >> trying to sell some of it.
[1:25:24] >> Yeah. in Utah.
[1:25:25] >> I will say just as a quick note if that
[1:25:28] like this angers me so much. My friends
[1:25:30] who are hunters
[1:25:32] >> and like real outdoors people um were
[1:25:37] very excited about the protection of
[1:25:39] these lands and now have they're
[1:25:41] essentially pissed at all forms of
[1:25:43] government. Let's just put it that way.
[1:25:45] Um because they were promised something
[1:25:47] and it was taken away. And I the they're
[1:25:50] now truly outside the box of any
[1:25:51] political party. They will die before
[1:25:54] they let go of this land.
[1:25:55] >> Yeah.
[1:25:55] >> And but it is really scary. It is truly
[1:25:58] scary. Um some of our fishermen also and
[1:26:02] you know
[1:26:02] >> and so on and um we still need to to
[1:26:05] extol the virtues of wilderness. It's
[1:26:07] without question. And hunters have been
[1:26:09] some of the great conservationists in
[1:26:10] American history. I mean you know Teddy
[1:26:12] Roosevelt you know really started the
[1:26:14] modern conservation movement because he
[1:26:16] was a hunter. But we need to know how to
[1:26:19] behave in nature at this point right? I
[1:26:21] mean in the 94 98% of the or 92% of the
[1:26:25] landscape that um because America we've
[1:26:28] tended to either you know there's either
[1:26:31] virgin nature or raped nature right I
[1:26:34] mean we have this this very strong
[1:26:36] binary and um and once we've decided
[1:26:40] that this is this side goes to
[1:26:42] capitalism and the marketplace you know
[1:26:45] we abuse it and we have abused it so so
[1:26:48] learning how to how to behave in nature
[1:26:51] I think is really important and that's
[1:26:52] that's guided a lot of my work. You're
[1:26:54] right in your take. Consciousness, you
[1:26:56] know,
[1:26:58] is part of that. It's like where do
[1:27:00] where do our minds engage with matter
[1:27:03] and and nature and and biology and and
[1:27:06] and it's amazing we don't know yet.
[1:27:08] >> You also strike me as somebody who you
[1:27:10] think about these very high level
[1:27:11] problems. I don't know when that came
[1:27:13] about. Um but clearly you're observant
[1:27:15] and you and you think a lot. But many
[1:27:18] people who talk about psychedelics,
[1:27:19] write about psychedelics and think about
[1:27:21] collective consciousness and um and are
[1:27:23] friendly with plants and plants like
[1:27:25] them. They're not like feet on the
[1:27:28] ground like so did do you have like
[1:27:31] practical people in your lineage? Were
[1:27:33] you were you taught like cuz gardening
[1:27:34] also is has a practical aspect. You
[1:27:36] can't just wish the plants to grow. You
[1:27:38] can't just dance around them and play
[1:27:39] them sound bowls. I'm not I think listen
[1:27:41] I think sound bowl therapy we'll
[1:27:43] probably discover has some very
[1:27:44] important effects on the nervous system.
[1:27:46] So, I'm not being disparaging of it at
[1:27:47] all, but it's one thing to like these
[1:27:50] things and and feel you have a
[1:27:52] relationship to them. Um, but you've
[1:27:54] made great efforts to try and get many
[1:27:57] people, millions of people to to
[1:27:59] appreciate and lean into these
[1:28:01] relationships in ways that can serve
[1:28:03] them and and the world. So, where does
[1:28:05] that come from?
[1:28:06] >> Well, I don't know exactly. I've been
[1:28:07] kind of surprised that a couple of my
[1:28:11] books have actually changed a public
[1:28:14] conversation around food and then
[1:28:16] >> about dilemma was very present in you
[1:28:19] know when I was going through you know
[1:28:21] college and and around that time I think
[1:28:23] it was a graduate
[1:28:24] >> 2006
[1:28:25] >> okay so yeah short it was after college
[1:28:27] but that book was everywhere
[1:28:30] >> and the mantra from that book right you
[1:28:33] know food not too much mostly plants
[1:28:36] right
[1:28:36] >> so I never, you know, I didn't set out
[1:28:38] to um start something and and certainly
[1:28:41] there were other important books that
[1:28:42] came out around the same period. Eric
[1:28:44] Schlloer's Fast Food Nation and Marian
[1:28:46] Nestle wrote a book called Food Politics
[1:28:48] that was very influential.
[1:28:50] >> The difference I would say they're great
[1:28:51] and I great admiration for them, but I
[1:28:53] would say that those were about what not
[1:28:56] to do.
[1:28:56] >> Yeah.
[1:28:57] >> Like this is bad, you know, and um and
[1:29:00] like growing up I read the one was it
[1:29:01] was Tom Robbins wrote a book from the
[1:29:03] Baskin Robins family. What was that
[1:29:04] book? I forget the title. something
[1:29:06] about sugar,
[1:29:06] >> but it was about I mean you read it and
[1:29:07] you're just like the atrocities of the
[1:29:09] of the meat industry. So So they're hard
[1:29:12] books to form a relationship to because
[1:29:13] it's like a they're it's a bad rel it's
[1:29:16] a great they're great books but about
[1:29:17] bad relationships.
[1:29:19] >> Good point.
[1:29:19] >> Whereas your book it was about the the
[1:29:21] love of these things and so it was like
[1:29:23] this benevolence.
[1:29:24] >> Well, I've always felt if there's any
[1:29:27] way to put hope in a story, you need to
[1:29:30] put hope in a story because we need
[1:29:32] hope. we it's our it's our air, you
[1:29:35] know. And I remember I wrote a a a piece
[1:29:39] for the New York Times that became a
[1:29:40] chapter in Omnivore's Dilemma about um
[1:29:43] about the meat industry. And I followed
[1:29:45] this one cow through the whole process,
[1:29:47] you know, from insemination to
[1:29:49] slaughter. And it's a pretty dark story
[1:29:51] about how we produce beef in this
[1:29:52] country. And it's a long story. It's
[1:29:54] like 8,000 words. But I made a point to
[1:29:56] like, well, what are the alternatives?
[1:29:58] And I learned about grass-fed,
[1:30:00] grass-finished beef, which at the time
[1:30:01] was a tiny little market.
[1:30:04] >> And um I had a couple paragraphs on
[1:30:06] this. There's another way to do it.
[1:30:08] There's another So I was making the
[1:30:10] point that the the food chain from which
[1:30:12] most of us are eating beef is floating
[1:30:14] on a sea of oil and that um it's fossil
[1:30:17] fuel to grow the corn um that feeds the
[1:30:21] animal. And then you need the
[1:30:23] pharmaceuticals because the corn makes
[1:30:25] the animal sick. And it's just it's just
[1:30:26] such a pathological system and it's so
[1:30:29] dark. Um, but there's another food chain
[1:30:32] that takes sunlight captured by grass
[1:30:36] that feeds this animal. I juxtapose
[1:30:39] these two food chains, an oil-based food
[1:30:41] chain and a sunlight based food chain.
[1:30:44] And
[1:30:46] you know, my editors were like, "Hey,
[1:30:47] this piece is already 8,000 words.
[1:30:49] You've got four paragraphs about
[1:30:51] grass-fed beef, which no one knows
[1:30:52] anything about and doesn't know where to
[1:30:54] get. You know, we got to cut that." And
[1:30:55] I said, "No, we have to leave that. That
[1:30:57] just shows the hope that we can grow our
[1:30:59] food using sunlight, not oil." And I won
[1:31:02] the fight, luckily. And was so
[1:31:05] gratified. A couple weeks after this
[1:31:07] piece came out, this piece made quite a
[1:31:09] bit of noise at the time. I walked into
[1:31:11] a butcher shop on College Avenue in
[1:31:13] Oakland, and I just I was kind of
[1:31:15] curious. I I wonder if they have
[1:31:17] grass-fed beef. And so I asked the
[1:31:18] butcher, "Do you have grass-fed beef?"
[1:31:20] And he goes, "What is going on? you're
[1:31:22] the sixth person this week who asked me
[1:31:24] for grass-fed beef and he got it.
[1:31:27] >> Um, so that satisfies me a lot. I I like
[1:31:31] writing where we can point a direction
[1:31:33] that it might be useful for and that
[1:31:35] that individuals can have some agency
[1:31:37] and not be just victims of these big
[1:31:39] systems.
[1:31:40] >> And I'm an optimistic person finally.
[1:31:42] >> You said finally [laughter] not not your
[1:31:44] entire life.
[1:31:46] >> No, no, I I think I have been. I I think
[1:31:48] I'm optimistic. I also think that I'm
[1:31:52] the oldest of four kids.
[1:31:54] My father, who's no longer with us, was
[1:31:56] alcoholic. I had a lot of responsibility
[1:31:59] for being a sane person in the family
[1:32:01] dynamic. Uh helping my mother with, you
[1:32:04] know, the household and things cuz my
[1:32:06] dad was kind of checked out. And um uh
[1:32:09] so I think I do I do value practical
[1:32:13] things and and and that's why my
[1:32:15] instinct is always like start with
[1:32:17] materialism and if materialism fails
[1:32:19] then we'll look at other weirder ideas.
[1:32:22] sorry to hear about your father and why
[1:32:25] why you had to step into that role but
[1:32:26] the world's um fortunate that you did
[1:32:29] because when I look at the the the
[1:32:31] important what I would call the
[1:32:32] important movements of the last 50 60
[1:32:34] years of and I think psychedelics is one
[1:32:37] of them and but when I say that I want
[1:32:39] to be clear I'm talking about
[1:32:40] neuroplasticity to make people feel and
[1:32:44] be better versions of themselves may not
[1:32:46] come from psychedelics or even therapy
[1:32:47] or or the sematics or breath work or
[1:32:50] >> health and fitness all of it, you know,
[1:32:53] I feel like where each of those quote
[1:32:56] unquote movements reached its cliff
[1:33:00] was when the individual or individuals
[1:33:02] that were leading that movement were
[1:33:04] either too emotive
[1:33:07] and not practical enough. They weren't
[1:33:08] thinking about how they could export the
[1:33:10] knowledge in a way that people could
[1:33:11] really make use of it. um that
[1:33:13] acknowledged the variety of truths that
[1:33:15] were out there that people weren't all
[1:33:16] gonna just like
[1:33:17] >> move to San Francisco or Big Su, you
[1:33:19] know, that kind of thing, but that
[1:33:21] people couldn't be so practical and and
[1:33:23] removed from thinking about new
[1:33:25] possibilities, new ways of humans being
[1:33:29] that they like dismissed it. And I feel
[1:33:31] like we're we are at an important
[1:33:33] repetition point where if we're going to
[1:33:35] break through, I feel like those two
[1:33:36] things have to really um be married in
[1:33:39] the in the movements. and and I and I
[1:33:41] see it in you and I'm I'm I like in your
[1:33:45] relationship to these things. So the
[1:33:46] practical side and the it you know the
[1:33:49] the clearly deep relationship to to
[1:33:51] plants in the world.
[1:33:52] >> I mean I do finally want to push the
[1:33:55] world in one direction and not in
[1:33:56] another. I mean and I you know I I mean
[1:33:59] you know that's considered advocacy in
[1:34:02] journalism and I I I I own up to it. Um,
[1:34:05] once I I mean there's a point when I'm
[1:34:07] starting on a subject where I don't know
[1:34:08] a lot that I wouldn't pretend to know
[1:34:11] where the world should go or where the
[1:34:13] food industry should go, but a certain
[1:34:14] point you've you've mastered the subject
[1:34:17] and you it would be disingenuous not to
[1:34:21] think that I think we need to move this
[1:34:23] way. Not that you know we had such
[1:34:25] success. I mean I'm I just wrote a new
[1:34:27] introduction to Omnivore's Dilemma and I
[1:34:30] wish the book were more dated than it
[1:34:32] is. Um, it's, you know, the food system
[1:34:35] is still screwed up. I I think we have
[1:34:37] more awareness of it. People have a
[1:34:39] better idea where their food comes from.
[1:34:41] They're they're they're making the link
[1:34:43] between um what they're eating and their
[1:34:46] health in a way thanks to people like
[1:34:48] you, but a whole lot of other people,
[1:34:50] but we're still eating a terrible diet
[1:34:52] for the most part in this country. And
[1:34:54] um we still have a agriculture
[1:34:58] that is all about growing corn and soy
[1:35:00] which are the building blocks of
[1:35:02] ultrarocessed food which is making us
[1:35:04] sick and killing us. Um so we have a
[1:35:06] long way to go. In a way we've made more
[1:35:08] progress with psychedelics but in the
[1:35:10] case of psychedelics there was no
[1:35:12] opposition. I mean there was some
[1:35:14] cultural opposition you know that you
[1:35:16] know holdovers from the 60s. Yeah. The
[1:35:18] drug war and things like that.
[1:35:19] >> He didn't like drugs. Now, now the the
[1:35:22] the red side is all about Ibeain for
[1:35:24] veterans.
[1:35:25] >> It's the most amazing transformation.
[1:35:26] >> Rick Perry self-described. I like Rick.
[1:35:29] I get along with him. He's very
[1:35:30] bipartisan about this psychedelic thing.
[1:35:32] And he just self-described.
[1:35:35] You said it, Rick. He calls himself a
[1:35:37] knuckle dragging Republican who's into
[1:35:38] heart medicine. He used those those
[1:35:41] words publicly, so I'm happy to repeat
[1:35:43] it. He he really wants these medicines
[1:35:45] to be available to all veterans who are
[1:35:49] experiencing PTSD and substance abuse
[1:35:51] issues. And he's worked very very hard
[1:35:53] across the aisle to try and bring these
[1:35:56] things to legal safe.
[1:35:58] >> And this is the only way in in our
[1:36:00] current political moment anything gets
[1:36:02] done is is you need you need support on
[1:36:04] the right as well as the left. And and
[1:36:06] that's been a lesson of the food
[1:36:08] movement which was coded kind of left
[1:36:10] liberal. Now you have Maha and there are
[1:36:13] a lot of problems with Maha. Um but
[1:36:15] there are areas of agreement on
[1:36:17] pesticides and on ultrarocessed food
[1:36:19] getting it out of the schools. You know
[1:36:21] used to hear the food movement was
[1:36:23] elitist. You don't hear that anymore and
[1:36:25] that's because you have people on the
[1:36:26] right who are supporting want to push
[1:36:28] the world in the same direction.
[1:36:30] >> That's a really good we have some hope.
[1:36:31] There's some hope there.
[1:36:33] >> Yeah. No, that's a gosh we've got to
[1:36:35] really break down the divisions to move
[1:36:37] healthy eating forward. I was just going
[1:36:39] to um end psychedelics in the in the
[1:36:41] safest way. I I was struck when I would
[1:36:45] started to look at the like the new food
[1:36:46] pyramid stuff. I realized that um the
[1:36:49] American foods have never been healthy.
[1:36:51] Like if people talk about how they eat
[1:36:53] in Europe and my dad's from Argentina
[1:36:54] and how they eat the grass-fed beef was
[1:36:56] that was all they had, right? You know,
[1:36:58] um there's some unhealthy elements about
[1:36:59] the diet there too when they eat heavy
[1:37:01] meals late and you know, but now it's
[1:37:04] people have improved their diet.
[1:37:05] information travels. But you know, we
[1:37:07] think fried chicken, we think um hot
[1:37:10] dogs, hamburgers, mac and cheese, French
[1:37:13] fries, like cotton candy. These are the
[1:37:15] most American apple as American as apple
[1:37:18] pie, right? We don't we don't right. So
[1:37:20] the so the the classic American foods
[1:37:24] were all very unhealthy. So I wonder if
[1:37:26] there's a way to redefine what American
[1:37:28] food is. That and that to me would be
[1:37:31] cool because Americans also pride
[1:37:33] themselves on being pioneers of all
[1:37:37] sorts of things including physical
[1:37:38] endeavors that require a lot of vitality
[1:37:40] and strength, endurance and coordination
[1:37:43] like you know so those generally don't
[1:37:45] come from the foods I described.
[1:37:46] >> No, they don't. And you know America's
[1:37:48] not never had a s a real food tradition
[1:37:51] till the till fast food is our is really
[1:37:54] our our food.
[1:37:55] >> Bummer.
[1:37:56] >> I'm sorry to say.
[1:37:57] >> Bummer. But people came from all these
[1:37:59] other countries and they had a food
[1:38:01] tradition and it got kind of stomped out
[1:38:03] of them. I think part of the problem is
[1:38:06] since we didn't have this deep these
[1:38:08] deep roots and this food tradition we
[1:38:10] were much more vulnerable to marketing
[1:38:12] and then say the you know the French are
[1:38:15] the Italians are um and they had they
[1:38:18] had something to resist um what the
[1:38:20] marketplace wanted to do with food which
[1:38:22] is of course to process it you know the
[1:38:24] cheapest possible raw ingredients. So
[1:38:26] yeah, we need to build an American
[1:38:28] cuisine that um is healthy. Um but it's
[1:38:32] easier said than done or we borrow I
[1:38:35] mean look, we talk about the
[1:38:36] Mediterranean diet, right? It's you know
[1:38:38] one of the diets we we have good reason
[1:38:40] to believe is healthier than others and
[1:38:42] uh and is attractive to a lot of people.
[1:38:45] >> So it doesn't have to be ours. I suppose
[1:38:47] you know we could borrow it from
[1:38:48] somewhere else. Um but it's very hard to
[1:38:51] change people's eating habits. um and
[1:38:55] one of the hardest things and habit in
[1:38:57] general, right? So I, you know, I don't
[1:38:59] I don't see it as easy and in general
[1:39:02] the fact that you now there's a there's
[1:39:04] a growing recognition though that that
[1:39:06] most of the chronic diseases we're
[1:39:08] dealing with, the ones that are killing
[1:39:10] us are food related, diet related. And I
[1:39:13] think you can attack that from the
[1:39:15] cultural stance and get people to eat
[1:39:17] different food, but as long as the the
[1:39:19] policies are making the the bad food
[1:39:23] cheap, which they are. I mean, we
[1:39:26] subsidize
[1:39:28] corn, which gives us high fructose corn
[1:39:30] syrup, which gives us diabetes.
[1:39:33] >> So, we're we're we're s we're supporting
[1:39:34] both sides in the war on type 2
[1:39:36] diabetes, right? We're supporting the
[1:39:38] sugar and we're supporting the
[1:39:39] treatment. It's insane.
[1:39:41] >> It is insane. and it's costing us a
[1:39:43] fortune. So, we have to change the
[1:39:45] policy and make healthy food cheaper
[1:39:47] relative to unhealthy food.
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[1:41:14] at Whole Foods, Sprouts, and now
[1:41:15] EarthBar as well. Is the current
[1:41:17] administration with the emphasis uh on
[1:41:21] healthy eating that they that they're
[1:41:23] out there with is are they
[1:41:24] >> they're not doing anything?
[1:41:25] >> They're not doing it.
[1:41:26] >> No. I mean, RFK Jr. has been talking a
[1:41:29] good game on this. But um meanwhile, the
[1:41:32] the big beautiful bill
[1:41:35] um eliminated all sorts of farm to
[1:41:37] school and farm to um other institution
[1:41:41] uh supporting small agriculture,
[1:41:43] regenerative agriculture. They're
[1:41:44] cutting all that stuff while they talk
[1:41:46] about it. And uh the only change they've
[1:41:49] made on food after over 2 years has been
[1:41:54] getting food companies to voluntarily
[1:41:56] remove some dyes from cereal.
[1:42:00] I don't think that's that big a deal. I
[1:42:02] don't think dyes are a a crucial health
[1:42:04] problem and it's voluntary. So this
[1:42:07] administration is not going to regulate
[1:42:08] anything. Um and the changes we need in
[1:42:11] the food system, getting ultrarocessed
[1:42:13] food out of the school lunch program is
[1:42:15] going to require regulations. uh and
[1:42:17] they're deregulating pesticides like
[1:42:19] crazy.
[1:42:20] >> Yeah, that's concerning.
[1:42:21] >> Very concerning. So, no, I I don't think
[1:42:24] it's uh an honest effort. I but I do
[1:42:27] think what RFK Jr. has done that is
[1:42:30] valuable is he's surfaced this other
[1:42:32] constituency that we we were not aware
[1:42:34] of. And these are mothers, many of whom
[1:42:37] have kids with serious illnesses that
[1:42:40] they're trying to treat with a better
[1:42:41] diet. [snorts] And I met them without
[1:42:44] knowing it when I was writing Omnivore's
[1:42:47] Dilemma. I was hanging out on Joel
[1:42:48] Salatin's farm. He's a very progressive
[1:42:50] farmer in um in Virginia who has
[1:42:53] pioneered a kind of grass-based
[1:42:55] agriculture where he rotates different
[1:42:59] species over the same grasslands and and
[1:43:02] grows amazing food, um eggs and meat, uh
[1:43:05] especially. And he's in the middle of
[1:43:07] nowhere. He's like 45 minutes from the
[1:43:09] interstate. And these people would show
[1:43:11] up on Saturdays to pick up their
[1:43:13] pastured chickens and and and I was
[1:43:15] wondering who are these people and how
[1:43:17] do they know about him? And they were
[1:43:19] part of a whole network
[1:43:21] and they were they were these Maha Moms
[1:43:24] before they were called that. And uh
[1:43:26] they were members of something called
[1:43:28] the Western Price Society um which is uh
[1:43:33] long story but um promotes grass-based
[1:43:37] uh animal protein and um has been around
[1:43:40] since the 30s or so. Um and has a very
[1:43:44] big network that no one on the coast
[1:43:46] notices, but it's out there. And uh and
[1:43:49] I would talk to these mothers and they
[1:43:50] they you know they had their thing with
[1:43:52] seed oils and food is medicine and you
[1:43:55] know they were not aligned with science
[1:43:57] always but they were passionate about
[1:43:59] clean food and um uh and were willing to
[1:44:02] drive a 100 miles to get it then.
[1:44:04] >> Wow. So Kennedy surfaced these people
[1:44:07] and now they're engaged politically. And
[1:44:12] if the food movement can make common
[1:44:14] cause with them and we've seen some some
[1:44:17] early signs, there was a a bill in
[1:44:19] Congress that the administration was
[1:44:21] supporting that would have exempted
[1:44:24] uh pesticide makers from from lawsuits,
[1:44:26] all lawsuits.
[1:44:28] And um and it was in an appropriations
[1:44:30] bill. And um Shelley Pingri, who's a
[1:44:34] food movement leader and an organic
[1:44:35] farmer from Maine in Congress, she got
[1:44:38] together with Maha activists and they
[1:44:40] got it stripped out of the bill and they
[1:44:42] did it twice.
[1:44:43] >> Right.
[1:44:43] >> So that's what we need. That's the kind
[1:44:45] of politics just like psychedelics right
[1:44:47] and left together. You can get things
[1:44:49] done.
[1:44:49] >> Yeah. Amen to that. I
[1:44:53] am forever stamped in my brain is, you
[1:44:55] know, Rick Perry and I forget who it was
[1:44:57] on the Democratic side like literally
[1:44:59] holding the hands of like we're for
[1:45:00] heart medicine and this was at a
[1:45:02] veterans um benefit. Um and it's
[1:45:05] interesting similarly to well in in sort
[1:45:08] of parallel construction with as you
[1:45:09] said with the whereas the food uh slow
[1:45:12] food and and you know movement um
[1:45:15] healthy food movement used to be
[1:45:17] considered elitist and now it's not.
[1:45:20] in the psychedelics thing used to be
[1:45:23] like big sir hippies very left-leaning
[1:45:26] and what seems to have moved the most
[1:45:28] intense of all the psychedelics I gain
[1:45:30] looks like it's going to cross the line
[1:45:32] as into a true um supported therapeutic
[1:45:36] by the FDA it's not there yet was the
[1:45:38] veterans community which of course is
[1:45:40] right and left but tends to lean right
[1:45:42] if we're honest and that's pretty
[1:45:44] remarkable
[1:45:44] >> yeah it is it is and something I would
[1:45:47] not have foreseen No, no. And and it's
[1:45:51] really to the credit, I think, of of the
[1:45:52] veterans like um Marcus Latrrell and and
[1:45:56] um Marcus Capone and but also Rick, you
[1:45:59] know. I'll say like I you know um
[1:46:01] >> Rick Perry also I would add Rick Din
[1:46:04] >> and Rick Dolin. The Ricks.
[1:46:05] >> The Ricks Ricks.
[1:46:07] >> The Ricks. Two very different
[1:46:08] characters.
[1:46:08] >> I'll say
[1:46:09] >> actually here's a funny one about Rick
[1:46:10] Davlin. Uh that at this event he got up
[1:46:14] there and he he said it was room full of
[1:46:16] veterans. um a lot of SEALs, a lot of
[1:46:19] spee spec ops folks and um and the first
[1:46:22] thing he said was that he was a
[1:46:24] conscientious objector during the
[1:46:25] Vietnam War. [laughter] And the room
[1:46:27] just went silent and then I looked
[1:46:29] around and there were a lot of smiles.
[1:46:30] They appreciated his honesty. Honesty
[1:46:32] >> and you know I I
[1:46:35] adore him too. I adore him too.
[1:46:38] >> But he but he very deliberately reached
[1:46:40] out to the right years ago. I remember
[1:46:42] he took a a contribution from Rebecca
[1:46:44] Mercer who was a big Trump one supporter
[1:46:48] and and people gave him a lot of grief
[1:46:50] in in his organization and you know why
[1:46:53] are you in bed with someone from the
[1:46:54] right and he said no this is really
[1:46:56] important this is how we're going to get
[1:46:57] change so I he's a visionary
[1:47:00] >> and uh and he reached out to the
[1:47:03] veterans groups and um so he deserves
[1:47:06] some of the credit too
[1:47:07] >> definitely the Ricks excuse me I for not
[1:47:09] crediting you dolin has the worst diet
[1:47:12] ever. We're working on him. He has like
[1:47:13] croissants and orange juice for
[1:47:15] breakfast. And he has more energy than
[1:47:17] any human being alive. Awake and
[1:47:19] cheerful and and clear of mind
[1:47:23] >> for 20 hours.
[1:47:25] >> And a journalist dream. He never goes
[1:47:27] off the record and he'll tell you
[1:47:28] exactly what he thinks.
[1:47:29] >> I love it.
[1:47:30] >> Um, couple more questions about
[1:47:31] psychedelics and then I want to talk
[1:47:33] about the most important drug on the
[1:47:34] planet um, which is caffeine. But when
[1:47:37] do you think MDMA andor psilocybin will
[1:47:41] get FDA approval given what you
[1:47:43] understand? Cuz it's kind of wild that
[1:47:44] Ibagane, the one psychedelic that no
[1:47:47] one's would even want to use
[1:47:48] recreationally, is going to get there
[1:47:50] first. It's
[1:47:51] >> and hasn't been, by the way, subjected
[1:47:53] to university drug trials,
[1:47:55] >> right?
[1:47:55] >> That's kind of incredible.
[1:47:56] >> It's incredible.
[1:47:57] >> Yeah.
[1:47:58] >> So, what about MDMA and psilocybin?
[1:48:00] >> They're closer. Um, so the resilient is
[1:48:03] the name of the company. It used to be
[1:48:05] LIOS. It was part of MAPS. They've put
[1:48:07] forward MDMA uh in the treatment of uh
[1:48:11] trauma and they were turned down once,
[1:48:14] but they've resubmitted with some
[1:48:15] additional data. It looks like they're
[1:48:17] fast-tracked. The same um executive
[1:48:21] order that um is fasttracking Ibeane is
[1:48:25] fasttracking other psychedelics. It was
[1:48:27] apparently originally written for
[1:48:28] Ibagane and somebody in the White House
[1:48:30] said it's kind of crazy to just do this
[1:48:32] one. Um there are these others that are
[1:48:35] closer to having the data we need. And
[1:48:38] then psilocybin coming from Compass uh a
[1:48:41] company called Compass Pathways is also
[1:48:44] close. You know, I hear before the end
[1:48:47] of the year, but I I I it's hard to
[1:48:51] believe. You know, I've been hearing
[1:48:52] it's close for a long time. I think it
[1:48:54] really is close this time. Mhm.
[1:48:56] >> The reason it's happening, we should be
[1:48:58] clear, is because uh Joe Rogan texted
[1:49:02] the president and said, "This is really
[1:49:04] important." He had done a show on
[1:49:06] Ibagain
[1:49:08] uh and um President Trump having lost
[1:49:12] the the the manosphere vote or afraid of
[1:49:15] losing the manosphere vote um wanted to
[1:49:17] give Rogan something he cared about. And
[1:49:21] um you know, is this the way to do drug
[1:49:23] approvals in America? I have some
[1:49:25] questions about that. Um I think I think
[1:49:28] Trump's doing the right thing for the
[1:49:29] wrong reasons, but there we are. So I
[1:49:32] think it will happen soon. It's going to
[1:49:34] be uh an earthquake when it happens
[1:49:36] because
[1:49:39] they'll be approved as medicines and to
[1:49:41] be administered in a certain way with
[1:49:43] some regulations. But the message that
[1:49:46] the public will take that the society
[1:49:48] will take is that these things that we
[1:49:50] thought were dangerous drugs are
[1:49:51] medicines. people who haven't thought
[1:49:54] about psychedelics. We are in a small
[1:49:55] community of people thinking who've been
[1:49:57] thinking about psychedelics for the last
[1:49:58] 10 years. Everyone's going to be saying,
[1:50:01] "Is this for me? Is this for my kid? Is
[1:50:04] this for my parents?"
[1:50:06] >> Yikes. Well, except for the parents
[1:50:07] part. I'm just kidding. I'm just
[1:50:09] kidding. [laughter]
[1:50:10] >> I wouldn't mind doing psychedelics with
[1:50:11] my parents, but uh but I I hear you loud
[1:50:14] and clear. I mean, there are people who
[1:50:15] have pre predisposition to psychosis or
[1:50:17] heart issues that
[1:50:18] >> Yeah.
[1:50:18] >> And look what's happened with cannabis.
[1:50:20] I mean, you know, we thought cannabis
[1:50:22] was a very safe drug, but now that it is
[1:50:24] being used so widely, we're we're
[1:50:26] learning about addiction psychosis
[1:50:28] >> and psychosis. And so, you know, it's
[1:50:31] going to be a I think there's a lot of
[1:50:33] public education to be done uh to help
[1:50:35] people navigate this. And, you know,
[1:50:38] they're not for everybody and there are
[1:50:40] people who definitely should stay away
[1:50:41] from psychedelics. And, uh, so it's
[1:50:44] going to be a very interesting couple
[1:50:47] years after it's approved. Um, and I
[1:50:49] hope it's done with some care. Um, but
[1:50:53] but we'll see. I mean, there is enormous
[1:50:55] hope here and and many people we can
[1:50:59] talk about the risk. They're real risks,
[1:51:00] but there are people whose lives will be
[1:51:03] saved by this. I mean I have interviewed
[1:51:05] so many people who've had transformative
[1:51:07] experiences
[1:51:09] um that have uh you know uh cured their
[1:51:12] addictions um their depression
[1:51:16] uh their
[1:51:17] OCD um obsessivecompulsive disorder. I
[1:51:21] mean there is a lot of potential here
[1:51:22] and the field of mental health needs new
[1:51:26] tools. The ones they have just don't
[1:51:28] work very well. If we do this right,
[1:51:30] we're gonna we're gonna um benefit an
[1:51:34] [clears throat] enormous number of
[1:51:34] people. But doing it right is not gonna
[1:51:36] be easy.
[1:51:37] >> No. No. You made all the critical
[1:51:39] points. And I also want to extend my
[1:51:41] gratitude to you and Tim Ferrris um
[1:51:44] who've worked really really hard.
[1:51:45] >> Tim's done amazing work.
[1:51:46] >> Amazing work to get this to where it is
[1:51:49] and hopefully across the line and done
[1:51:51] right. I I think I know you both care a
[1:51:53] lot about that and there are others, but
[1:51:54] you guys have really stuck your neck
[1:51:56] necks out there early when it was when
[1:51:58] it was risky and have really continued
[1:52:00] to to
[1:52:01] >> I remember how nervous I was when I
[1:52:03] published how to change your mind. I was
[1:52:04] talking about my own psychedelic
[1:52:06] experience. I didn't know what would
[1:52:07] happen. I thought the police would be
[1:52:08] knocking at the door.
[1:52:10] >> I mean, landed right. The timing was
[1:52:12] right.
[1:52:13] >> Yeah, the timing was right.
[1:52:14] >> You were like really early but not so
[1:52:16] early that
[1:52:17] >> the police would be at your door and
[1:52:18] Yeah.
[1:52:19] >> Wild. I listened to because as I recall
[1:52:22] it's only in audio book your book about
[1:52:24] um doing this absolutely stupid
[1:52:27] experiment. No, I'm kidding. of uh it
[1:52:30] was so awesome. I I love this book where
[1:52:32] you quit caffeine and um I drink a lot
[1:52:35] of caffeine from the first time I took a
[1:52:37] sip of mate. I was like this completes
[1:52:41] me,
[1:52:42] >> you know, in some way, you know, the the
[1:52:43] same way some people who drink alcohol
[1:52:45] feel. And I'm grateful it's caffeine and
[1:52:47] not alcohol.
[1:52:48] >> Much better drug.
[1:52:49] >> Yeah. I I think so. So, and 90% of the
[1:52:52] world's adults consume it every day and
[1:52:54] and on and on and um and I love it and
[1:52:58] unless I've been sick, I I don't really
[1:53:00] know life without caffeine. What
[1:53:02] >> You should try it, though.
[1:53:03] >> Yeah. So, I was going to say, what do
[1:53:04] you think an experiment like quitting
[1:53:06] caffeine for an extended period of time
[1:53:09] could do for somebody like me or for
[1:53:11] somebody listening that would perhaps
[1:53:13] allow the caffeine to be even a better
[1:53:16] experience after? Is that what it's
[1:53:18] about? or what did you discover about
[1:53:19] consciousness? What did you seriously
[1:53:21] what did you discover about um your
[1:53:24] relationship to substances or work or
[1:53:26] focus or anything? What what was
[1:53:28] revealed there? I read the book. I
[1:53:30] listened to the book and I highly
[1:53:31] recommend it as I do all your books
[1:53:32] >> and it is in a print book too. There's I
[1:53:34] I subsequently put it in a book called
[1:53:36] This is Your Mind on Plants and um uh
[1:53:39] which came out a couple years ago and
[1:53:41] it's one of three chapters in that book.
[1:53:43] So caffeine is a really interesting
[1:53:45] drug. First of all, most of us don't
[1:53:47] think of it as a drug. Um, but it is a
[1:53:49] drug to which most of us are addicted
[1:53:52] and something like 90% yeah use it on a
[1:53:54] daily basis whether it's in the form of
[1:53:55] coffee, tea or or herb mate or a couple
[1:53:59] other substances. I interviewed Roland
[1:54:01] Griffith u when I started writing about
[1:54:04] caffeine because before he got involved
[1:54:06] he's he's the was the
[1:54:07] psychopharmarmacologist at Johns Hopkins
[1:54:09] who did the initial work on psilocybin
[1:54:12] and really launched the psychedelic
[1:54:14] renaissance and um but before he worked
[1:54:16] on psychedelics he worked on caffeine so
[1:54:18] I I wanted to talk to him about it and
[1:54:20] during this interview he said you know
[1:54:22] the only way you can really understand a
[1:54:24] drug that you're taking habitually is to
[1:54:27] get off it you can't understand it until
[1:54:30] you it's out of your system completely.
[1:54:33] So, he proposed that I go on this
[1:54:35] caffeine fast.
[1:54:37] I started really young, like 8 or 10. It
[1:54:40] was a way to be with my dad. He would
[1:54:41] get up really early in the morning and
[1:54:43] he got home very late at night and as I
[1:54:45] said, he's sort of absent a lot of the
[1:54:47] time, but the time I could really
[1:54:48] connect with him was at breakfast. I'd
[1:54:49] get my drag myself out of bed and have
[1:54:52] coffee with him. And um so my addiction
[1:54:55] started very early. It was very hard to
[1:54:57] get off. If you go cold turkey, people
[1:55:00] describe flu-l like symptoms. I just
[1:55:02] felt off. I could not focus. I felt like
[1:55:06] I had ADHD.
[1:55:07] I didn't feel myself, which is odd. And
[1:55:10] I couldn't write at all. I mean, it was
[1:55:12] so wired into my writing process. It was
[1:55:14] just forget it. You know, that idea of
[1:55:17] sitting at a desk. And it was just
[1:55:19] really hard to do to shake it. After a
[1:55:22] couple days, the symptoms started to
[1:55:26] subside. And I finally got to this point
[1:55:28] where I had no caffeine in my system and
[1:55:30] I wasn't having tea either. And but even
[1:55:33] then I didn't feel like myself. And I
[1:55:36] thought, well, isn't that weird? You
[1:55:38] feel more yourself on a drug than not on
[1:55:41] the drug. I just felt like I was
[1:55:43] somebody else. It was hard. I did it for
[1:55:46] about three months and all the while I'm
[1:55:49] researching caffeine and learning about
[1:55:51] it and learning, you know, it's it's not
[1:55:53] bad for you. You can overuse it. It has
[1:55:56] a lot of very positive health effects up
[1:55:58] to seven or eight cups a day and at that
[1:56:01] point problems
[1:56:03] >> begin and some people get jittery on a
[1:56:06] lot less than that. Um but for most
[1:56:07] people it is addictive but aside from
[1:56:11] you know jitteriness if you get it then
[1:56:13] the negative effects are are are
[1:56:16] outweighed by positive effects. Helps
[1:56:19] people with Parkinson's reduces blood
[1:56:21] pressure. I forget I had a whole list of
[1:56:24] all the health benefits. There are a lot
[1:56:25] of and some of them are not tied to the
[1:56:27] caffeine. Of course, they're also very
[1:56:29] valuable polyphenols in coffee and tea,
[1:56:31] which are a great boon to the
[1:56:33] microbiome. But the day I got back on
[1:56:37] caffeine, my first cup, it was it was
[1:56:40] just the best drug experience. Better
[1:56:42] than any psychedelic experience I've
[1:56:44] had. It was so powerful. I was just
[1:56:48] flying. I had all this energy and I came
[1:56:51] home and I cleaned my closet which I I
[1:56:54] never do. Uh I I cleaned up the garden.
[1:56:57] I just was just I was a superman. It was
[1:57:00] just wonderful. And then I had another
[1:57:02] cup and it was like not as special. And
[1:57:05] uh but I thought to myself, is there a
[1:57:07] way to preserve that power? because
[1:57:10] getting back on caffeine is very
[1:57:12] different than the daily experience of
[1:57:14] getting to baseline, which is
[1:57:15] essentially what you're doing with a
[1:57:17] addiction like that. So I thought, okay,
[1:57:19] I'm only going to do caffeine one day a
[1:57:22] week. Saturdays, I'll have coffee,
[1:57:25] nothing none else. And it worked for a
[1:57:28] few weeks and my Saturday coffee was
[1:57:30] wonderful. But then I had a big deadline
[1:57:33] on a Thursday and I thought, you know,
[1:57:34] this would really get me over the hump
[1:57:36] if I have a cup and slippery slope back
[1:57:40] to, you know, every day. But I
[1:57:43] appreciate it. I have no no bad faith
[1:57:46] about drinking coffee. I think it's
[1:57:48] God's gift to mankind in so many ways.
[1:57:51] Tea, too. I also drink green tea.
[1:57:53] >> I think we're very lucky to have it.
[1:57:55] >> It does have very positive cognitive
[1:57:57] benefits in terms of focus. I mean
[1:57:59] people, you know, they've done tests on
[1:58:01] students who preparing for an exam. If
[1:58:05] they have a cup of coffee or tea,
[1:58:08] >> or maybe it's done with pills cuz they
[1:58:10] had a placebo control, probably with
[1:58:12] pills. The the ones who had caffeine
[1:58:15] perform better on the tests. It's uh a
[1:58:18] really great focus drug. It's cocaine
[1:58:20] without all the problems.
[1:58:22] >> Love it. Well, and you live in a great
[1:58:25] city for great coffee.
[1:58:26] >> We have such good coffee. the original
[1:58:28] pizza is just down the street and the
[1:58:30] cheese board and yeah.
[1:58:31] >> Well, I'm so grateful you wrote the book
[1:58:33] and that you did the experiment. I I
[1:58:35] will seriously consider doing the
[1:58:36] experiment.
[1:58:36] >> Give it a try. You learn a lot and it's
[1:58:38] it's just about thinking about your
[1:58:40] relationship to drugs in general. I
[1:58:42] mean, they are part of our lives. It's a
[1:58:43] normal part of human life.
[1:58:46] >> Our thinking about drugs has been really
[1:58:49] contaminated by the drug war. Drugs are
[1:58:51] not good or bad. I mean there it's all
[1:58:53] about context and caffeine is a really
[1:58:56] great case study and and it'll you learn
[1:58:59] something about yourself getting off it
[1:59:01] and and then getting back on it.
[1:59:03] >> Well, I'm excited. The way you describe
[1:59:05] it and that the fact that you share the
[1:59:07] belief that it is God's gift to mankind
[1:59:09] is uh is a reason enough.
[1:59:11] >> Michael, thank you so much for coming
[1:59:13] here today, sharing your knowledge and
[1:59:16] for writing all these books. I mean, you
[1:59:18] have humanized plants in a way that
[1:59:21] makes people healthier when they pay
[1:59:22] attention to and act on the information.
[1:59:25] Your care for humanity is is
[1:59:28] self-evident and for animals and and
[1:59:30] plants, too. The whole You strike me as
[1:59:33] somebody who really has like the whole
[1:59:34] picture. And yet,
[1:59:36] >> I'm trying.
[1:59:36] >> You're not just running around saying
[1:59:38] one love and everyone should drop acid.
[1:59:40] [laughter] Thank goodness. I mean,
[1:59:41] you're obviously a super serious scholar
[1:59:43] of everything. you uh put your uh your
[1:59:47] pen to and and when you speak I learn
[1:59:50] and people really learn. Um I know you
[1:59:53] have a book that you're working on now
[1:59:54] about the microbiome. Maybe we have you
[1:59:56] back to talk about that if you're
[1:59:58] willing.
[1:59:58] >> Happy to when it comes out. Yeah, it's
[2:00:00] an audio book. It's another short audio
[2:00:03] book and it'll be out sometime next
[2:00:04] year.
[2:00:04] >> Great. Well, I would love to have you
[2:00:05] back around that time. Sounds good.
[2:00:07] >> And I know I speak on behalf of like
[2:00:10] millions and millions of people. Thank
[2:00:11] you for doing what you do. And
[2:00:13] >> you're so generous.
[2:00:14] >> I'm so glad you dropped those watermelon
[2:00:16] seeds into the ground. [laughter] Here
[2:00:17] we are.
[2:00:18] >> Me, too. Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate
[2:00:20] it.
[2:00:21] >> Thank you for joining me for today's
[2:00:22] discussion with Michael Pollen. To learn
[2:00:24] more about his work and to find links to
[2:00:26] his many excellent books, including his
[2:00:28] most recent book on consciousness.
[2:00:30] Please see the show note caption. If
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