Transcript
[0:00] Of
[0:14] course, you know, like I said with the
[0:17] Greeks, it's not so decisive that they
[0:20] have a concrete entity to soul. Mhm. I
[0:23] mean the the Christians certainly read
[0:25] them as saying that that is the case but
[0:27] it isn't so much. Um whereas the
[0:30] Buddhists they take this as a starting
[0:32] point and they do this because
[0:35] they want to to narrow in meditation to
[0:38] the point where you no longer are aware
[0:42] of externals. So you're silencing.
[0:46] They're seeking that silencing.
[0:48] >> Right? So in so doing you have to
[0:50] silence quite literally every aspect of
[0:52] human experience.
[0:54] >> But the ultimately positive message of
[0:57] this is that it is not annihilation.
[0:59] This is what frightens a lot of people.
[1:01] They think about oblivion
[1:03] >> right
[1:03] >> or an abyss. It's not
[1:05] >> for the Buddhists. The idea is if you do
[1:07] silence all of this it is an
[1:10] unimaginable bliss.
[1:12] >> Yeah.
[1:13] >> Keep watching to learn more. The new
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[2:13] >> [music]
[2:17] >> Thinking Aloud
[2:20] conversations [music] on the leading
[2:22] edge of knowledge and discovery with
[2:25] psychologist Jeffrey Michionlo.
[2:31] [music]
[2:35] Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey
[2:37] Michionlo. Today we are going to talk
[2:40] about the soul. My guest is Emil
[2:43] Alexandruff who is here with me in
[2:45] Albuquerque. This is our second
[2:48] interview. I think you'll enjoy our
[2:50] first one on the romance of metaphysics,
[2:53] but we're going to really focus on a
[2:56] different topic today. It's not a
[2:58] preerequisite that you watch that
[3:01] interview, but you would really enjoy it
[3:03] if you do.
[3:05] Emil is the author of metaphysics and
[3:07] ineffable as well as the other platonist
[3:10] beginning. He's here in New Mexico today
[3:13] as a visiting scholar at the University
[3:16] of New Mexico and he is an assistant
[3:18] professor at Waseda University in Tokyo
[3:23] obviously a specialist in philosophy.
[3:26] Welcome again Emil.
[3:28] >> Thank you very much for having me
[3:29] Jeffrey.
[3:29] >> It's a pleasure to be with you once
[3:31] again. Truly
[3:33] >> likewise,
[3:33] >> I enjoyed our previous interview so
[3:36] much. I think in a way your passion for
[3:40] philosophy exemplifies what I think of
[3:43] as the epitome of what a new thinking
[3:46] allowed interview should be.
[3:48] >> Oh, I appreciate that very much. It's a
[3:50] great honor. Yeah.
[3:52] So
[3:53] I guess be before we start delving into
[3:57] the different ways that philosophy has
[4:01] examined and depicted the soul. Is there
[4:05] a way we can define it to begin with a
[4:08] starting point for our viewers?
[4:11] >> Well that's the challenge with trying to
[4:13] define the soul. See automatically we
[4:16] give it a definite article the soul. M
[4:19] >> so that in itself presents challenges.
[4:21] So we presume that there is something to
[4:23] be talking about.
[4:24] >> Yeah.
[4:25] >> Well, you know, for me the biggest issue
[4:28] is the starting point,
[4:30] >> right? So as we were discussing a lot of
[4:32] this over lunch,
[4:34] when I look at the world of experience,
[4:37] right, I see that things are always
[4:40] changing, right? Nothing stands still as
[4:43] Heracitis would say, right? And so from
[4:46] there I would have to presume that as an
[4:50] observer I am changing too.
[4:53] >> Now with that context in mind I
[4:56] automatically have to have an idea of
[5:00] awareness in a consistent state of
[5:03] change. From there I begin my inquiry
[5:06] into soul.
[5:08] >> Okay that's good.
[5:09] >> Yeah
[5:10] >> it's beautiful cuz I I feel full of soul
[5:13] now. And as you point out, I'll be 80
[5:15] this year. Uh, and I realize I'm not the
[5:19] same person that I was as, let's say, as
[5:22] a teenager. I'm very different now.
[5:24] >> Yeah. So, exactly. So, this features
[5:26] into the ancient debates on what soul
[5:28] actually is.
[5:30] Um, if we are to take it from the
[5:32] perspective of the Middle Ages, that's a
[5:34] very important point in history because
[5:36] prior to then it couldn't be decisively
[5:40] stated that the soul was an entity the
[5:42] way the Christian tradition would have
[5:44] it for example. So when you have
[5:48] thinkers like for example Aquinus
[5:50] >> defining soul on the basis of will right
[5:54] so a valition that is accompanying the
[5:57] intellect automatically we do have some
[5:59] form of objectified entity a
[6:01] concreteness to the person
[6:04] >> right of course this Aquinus justifies
[6:07] primarily through scripture right he has
[6:10] scripture as the background but then of
[6:12] course he also adds his own reasoning
[6:15] Um, would you like me to juxtapose this
[6:17] with the ancient tradition because
[6:19] that's where it's really different.
[6:20] >> Okay.
[6:21] >> Okay. So, basically with the ancient
[6:23] tradition,
[6:23] >> you're talking about the Greeks, I
[6:25] presume.
[6:25] >> Greeks. Yeah. Now, let's stick with the
[6:27] Greeks for now so we don't get too
[6:28] convoluted.
[6:30] Um, well, so basically, okay, so the
[6:34] Greeks would have viewed the world as a
[6:37] rational one, right? And this
[6:40] rationality is pretty much discerned by
[6:44] the person undergoing the experience. So
[6:47] from there what they see is that every
[6:49] person has a limited view of rationality
[6:52] as such. So following this idea
[6:56] we get the perspective of increasing
[6:59] grades of reason.
[7:02] And so what soul is then is but a
[7:04] fragment of a greater rationality which
[7:08] people like for example Aristotle and
[7:10] Plato would call the intellect. Okay. So
[7:14] from here we have to conclude at least
[7:18] um on the first level that so is
[7:22] derivative of a greater rational order.
[7:24] Mhm.
[7:26] >> So everything else about the world can
[7:29] be viewed to a greater extent in so far
[7:32] as you have greater amounts of reason.
[7:35] Now a lot of modern people are going to
[7:37] object to that definition. They're going
[7:40] to say soul is is about passion. It's
[7:43] about emotion. It's we use the word to
[7:46] say you're very soulful.
[7:48] usually means that you you're artistic
[7:51] or have have a great desire
[7:56] to do something in the world. That's
[7:58] right. I mean I would say definitely we
[8:00] are living in the modern paradigm of
[8:02] soul being a uniqueness an individual a
[8:05] subject.
[8:07] Now this you know is very difficult to
[8:10] account for when you look at ancient
[8:12] contexts you know I mean
[8:14] >> would even before Plato and Aristotle
[8:17] the prescratic philosophers accepted the
[8:20] idea of a rational
[8:23] universe
[8:24] >> absolutely I mean um depending on which
[8:27] prescratic we're talking about if we
[8:29] talk about Heracitis for example he
[8:31] talks about consistent change but this
[8:33] change works under the opaces of the
[8:35] logos So there is some order to this.
[8:39] >> Yeah.
[8:39] >> Right. And so the human being is merely
[8:42] subject to this order. Of course he
[8:44] doesn't articulate a very complex
[8:46] cosmology
[8:47] but he gives you that sense. And this is
[8:50] maintained well even into the early
[8:52] middle ages. Okay. So for example prior
[8:55] to the development of scholasticism
[8:57] proper the idea is that reason reigns
[9:01] supreme. reason in the sense of
[9:04] intellect. Uh the rationality of the
[9:06] world is in everything in the subject
[9:10] and in the object. So much so that there
[9:11] isn't even a distinction yet between the
[9:14] two.
[9:15] >> It seems to be a projection of something
[9:18] human. Humans discover that they can be
[9:20] rational and then project it out onto
[9:23] the world as a whole. So we get the
[9:26] idea, I think, of the animi, the soul of
[9:29] the world.
[9:30] >> Yeah, that's beautifully put. That's
[9:31] right. So if we are to turn for a second
[9:34] to the early let's say the Arabic
[9:36] tradition, right? So if let's take
[9:38] Alfarabi for example, a famous um
[9:41] neoplatonist and also a Aristotilian
[9:45] among other things.
[9:46] >> What century?
[9:47] >> So we're talking 9th century. So
[9:49] >> century.
[9:49] >> So he was born I'd say 870. He would
[9:52] have died 950
[9:54] >> somewhere thereabouts. So, Al Farabi
[9:56] would have had um would have had this
[10:00] idea um an aboutness. Okay, he used the
[10:04] Arabic term for aboutness. There is
[10:06] aboutness in the world by which you go
[10:09] to make meaning. So, you look at things
[10:12] um purely unadulterated first. Let's say
[10:16] a chair, right? Or a tree. You look at
[10:18] it and then you just make sense of it by
[10:22] bringing it in internally
[10:24] into the mind. So then it works it out
[10:26] and then you discern that's a chair. It
[10:28] serves this function. So there is this
[10:30] two stage process mediation if you like
[10:34] right which he thinks is only particular
[10:37] to the embodied soul. But the point is
[10:41] this
[10:43] when someone dies or they're freed from
[10:45] the body, right? There's no longer a
[10:48] mediation process. So there is just pure
[10:51] thinking. There is no primary and
[10:54] secondary intelligibles as he would call
[10:55] it.
[10:56] >> The aboutness is gone. It just is.
[10:59] Right. So in other words, we are only in
[11:02] sold in so far as we are in the body.
[11:05] >> Oh
[11:06] >> yeah,
[11:07] >> I understand. And correct me if I'm
[11:09] wrong, in some ancient philosophies,
[11:12] they would distinguish between the soul
[11:14] and the spirit.
[11:16] >> Yes, of course. Yeah. Um, in general,
[11:19] the spirit, if we take it from Plato,
[11:21] Plato is a good one to look at. So, he
[11:23] would have said, you know, there is a
[11:25] spiritedness. So, this is the um desire
[11:28] for courage, honor, you know, elation
[11:31] for music and all that sort of thing.
[11:34] And then there is the intellect which is
[11:37] another part of the soul which is purely
[11:40] reason right and then of course he has
[11:42] the passions which is bodily desire. So
[11:45] he has this is the tripartite theory of
[11:46] the soul.
[11:48] >> So these three components come together
[11:50] but they are always governed by the
[11:51] intellect. So this Alfarabi was really
[11:54] reading into Plato quite literally
[11:56] taking the [clears throat] intellect to
[11:57] be the only true how do I say permanent
[12:01] entity if you like
[12:02] >> which side for philosophers to feel that
[12:05] way but I would imagine that in in the
[12:08] general population particularly in the
[12:10] ancient world they're not particularly
[12:12] concerned with the intellect.
[12:14] >> It depends how you define the intellect.
[12:16] I mean the Buddhist for example would
[12:18] not have an idea of the intellect or
[12:22] consciousness for the Buddhists as
[12:25] something that is you know primarily
[12:28] focused with truths
[12:31] >> um rational truths discursive truths for
[12:34] example higher geometrical principles or
[12:36] whatever for them it's just a form of
[12:38] awareness that brings everything into
[12:41] view
[12:42] >> right and so with the Buddhist
[12:43] traditions you know because they're So
[12:46] you know despar often you won't you'll
[12:49] find some of them that believe that you
[12:51] can have a consciousness free from the
[12:53] body and some that you won't.
[12:55] >> Mhm.
[12:55] >> So the message there is much more
[12:58] complicated. Right. But if we're
[13:00] speaking about intellect in the Greek
[13:02] sense we are talking primarily about the
[13:04] ability to make sense of the world. I
[13:06] >> mean they had Uklid he was already doing
[13:09] very rigorous geometry.
[13:11] >> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And so
[13:13] geometry already was central to the
[13:16] tradition. It was the highest form of
[13:18] reason to a large extent. Um discursive
[13:21] reason danoi as Plato would call it. Now
[13:25] I suppose this is it's an important
[13:26] thing to have brought up Uklid because
[13:29] Plato would have distinguished this
[13:31] geometrical um truths from a higher
[13:34] truth he calls an oasis or
[13:35] understanding. Mhm. So other thinkers,
[13:40] later thinkers, later interpreters of
[13:41] Plato would have understood Plato to
[13:44] mean that geometrical principles they
[13:46] apply in so far as we're talking about
[13:48] matter.
[13:50] >> So once you leave the world of matter
[13:52] and it becomes incorporal, these
[13:54] geometrical principles are perfect. So
[13:56] much so there is no longer calculation
[13:58] at work.
[13:59] >> Mhm.
[14:00] >> And this is what entails when you have
[14:01] noises or understanding. There's no
[14:04] longer calculation at work.
[14:07] >> That's right.
[14:08] >> Mean they didn't have mathematics
[14:10] independent of the physical world.
[14:12] >> They had higher mathematical forms
[14:16] >> but they are not calculated at this
[14:17] point. They are complete.
[14:20] >> Mhm.
[14:21] >> Right. This is also a Pythagorian sense.
[14:24] In the Buddhist worldview, you have
[14:26] similar ideas when they talk about
[14:28] consciousness that is you know uh based
[14:33] primarily on conceptual proliferation as
[14:35] in carving up the world into bits and
[14:37] parts and to make meaning of it
[14:40] >> is already a form of clinging a clinging
[14:42] on to the world.
[14:44] >> So it's already convoluted by desires
[14:46] and things like this. So you can never
[14:48] make an inference that is ever going to
[14:50] be complete in itself because you're
[14:52] already clinging on with bodily desires
[14:55] and everything else.
[14:55] >> So in the Buddhist tradition, desires
[14:58] are considered undesirable.
[15:00] >> Absolutely. That's the central message,
[15:02] right? Is to overcome all bodily desire
[15:05] because that is what perpetuates
[15:07] suffering. And in other traditions, I
[15:10] gather, I've certainly heard it these
[15:13] days, people would say, you know, to be
[15:15] full of desire is to be soulful. Well,
[15:19] you know what? That's an actually really
[15:20] good statement because even Plato would
[15:23] agree with this because that what's
[15:25] that's what happens when you're in soul.
[15:27] You are filled with desire because once
[15:30] the soul is freed from the body and if
[15:32] we take this narrative of it being
[15:34] intellect pure, [clears throat]
[15:35] >> intellect proper, then it no longer has
[15:39] desire,
[15:40] right? It's in a consistent state of
[15:43] bliss, happiness.
[15:44] >> It no longer has a hiccup in that which
[15:48] it desires. It already has it. It's
[15:50] complete.
[15:51] >> Well, that sounds nice from a
[15:52] philosophical point of view. I would say
[15:56] uh from the point of view of I'll call
[15:58] it parasychological folklore, we hear a
[16:02] lot about hungry ghosts and I'm sure
[16:05] that you find that in the Buddhist
[16:07] tradition
[16:09] as well. The idea that disembodied souls
[16:12] are sometimes uh filled with the desires
[16:17] for their former life for for whatever
[16:20] habits or addictions or attractions they
[16:23] once had. Yeah, I mean this is a very
[16:25] good point also. So when you're in a
[16:29] current life for the Buddhists, you can
[16:31] cultivate a you can cultivate such a
[16:35] strong desire for certain things that
[16:37] they actually extend into the subsequent
[16:39] incarnation or rebirth.
[16:41] >> Right. So it sort of forms an illusory
[16:44] identity that moves between lives.
[16:46] >> We've talked about the the notion of
[16:48] samscaras.
[16:50] >> That's right. Yeah. So uh in effect you
[16:54] know I think also this brings me to your
[16:57] essay on you know the survival of uh you
[17:00] know bodily death.
[17:03] >> From what I gather from the essay the
[17:05] tricky point is distinguishing
[17:08] what it is that actually survives.
[17:10] >> So you accept that something survives.
[17:12] >> I accept that something survives and
[17:15] that it does have desire.
[17:18] >> That's right. Okay. So it is the
[17:21] principle of individuation that's really
[17:23] the tricky point, isn't it? So trying to
[17:25] distinguish what it is that preserves
[17:27] after you die.
[17:29] >> So this is also what you see in you know
[17:33] uh the Buddhist tradition they would say
[17:35] well it's not really the body that
[17:36] survives. It's you know the maintenance
[17:39] of karmic residue.
[17:41] >> Karmic residue being itself based on
[17:44] cleanings of prior lives. So this is
[17:47] pretty much consistent with
[17:48] parasychological data points because if
[17:51] individuation is going to survive in the
[17:54] next life
[17:55] >> it's based on things that were important
[17:57] in that life.
[17:59] >> I would agree.
[18:00] >> Yeah.
[18:00] >> Yeah.
[18:01] >> Yeah. And it makes perfectly sense. So
[18:04] um now if we talk about u imagining soul
[18:10] >> let's say free from conceptual
[18:13] proliferation and why they talk about it
[18:15] as consistent state of bliss. Well, we
[18:18] can imagine that you know the Buddhists
[18:22] developed this meditative tradition of
[18:24] stealing the mind, right? By stealing
[18:28] the mind, you no longer have let's say
[18:32] um
[18:34] anchors from which you are going to
[18:37] desire another thing. So let's say for
[18:39] example you are hungry and you satisfy
[18:41] your hunger, you're going to get hungry
[18:43] again.
[18:44] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[18:44] >> Right. So the idea is that you are
[18:46] silencing all desire but still staying
[18:50] aware.
[18:51] >> Mhm.
[18:52] >> So the Buddhists believe you can do this
[18:53] in in the embodied life.
[18:56] >> Yeah.
[18:56] >> Right. So if you can do this in embodied
[18:58] life and we use that as evidence then we
[19:00] can talk about a unadulterated
[19:03] awareness.
[19:04] For example, I've interviewed in the
[19:07] past a vapina teacher named Shinszen
[19:10] Young
[19:11] >> uh who talked about his wife was a
[19:14] heroin addict and through meditation she
[19:18] learned that
[19:20] she wasn't the addiction. The addiction
[19:22] was just a a a thought accompanied by
[19:26] certain either desires or aversions and
[19:29] she could separate herself from it. And
[19:33] that way she freed herself from the
[19:35] addiction.
[19:36] >> Yes, that's right. And so the good news
[19:38] I suppose with the Buddhist perspective
[19:40] is that you are not your desires.
[19:43] >> Yes.
[19:44] >> Right. But in the same time you have to
[19:47] take this all the way through and
[19:48] understand that you are not a self.
[19:51] >> That's very interesting. It's a core
[19:54] concept in Buddhism.
[19:55] >> That's right. Anat right in Sanskrit. So
[19:57] the idea is that you are not any one
[20:01] form of consciousness, right? You're
[20:04] none of your senses. You are none of
[20:06] your um aggregates, your mental
[20:08] formations, your feelings. None of that
[20:10] is you. What you are is on a fundamental
[20:13] level, if you are to say you're anything
[20:14] is you're a lif stream. You are
[20:18] basically traversing from one life to
[20:21] the other based on what you cling to,
[20:25] >> right? based on what consciousness
[20:27] itself clings to which in itself gives
[20:29] rise to karmic residue.
[20:31] >> Yeah.
[20:32] >> Right.
[20:32] >> It's a beautiful vision I think.
[20:34] >> Yeah. Well, it's great because you know
[20:37] um it doesn't make life seem like it's
[20:40] pointless. I mean you you can come back
[20:43] into the subsequent life for other
[20:45] reasons,
[20:47] >> right? It doesn't just have to be
[20:48] negative bodily desired clinging. But at
[20:51] the at the end of the day, I'm pretty
[20:52] sure that the the Buddhist notion of
[20:55] anata is diametrically opposed to the
[20:59] Judeo-Christian idea of an eternal soul.
[21:02] >> Absolutely. Yeah. So, this is where the
[21:04] two traditions differ. Right. So, of
[21:08] course, you know, like I said with the
[21:10] Greeks, it's not so decisive that they
[21:14] have a concrete entity to soul. Mh. I
[21:16] mean the the Christians certainly read
[21:18] them as saying that that is the case but
[21:21] it isn't so much. Um whereas the
[21:24] Buddhists they take this as a starting
[21:25] point and they do this because
[21:29] they want to to narrow in meditation to
[21:32] the point where you no longer are aware
[21:36] of externals. So you're silencing. They
[21:39] are seeking that silencing.
[21:41] >> Right? So in so doing you have to
[21:43] silence quite literally every aspect of
[21:45] human experience.
[21:47] >> But the ultimately positive message of
[21:50] this is that it is not annihilation.
[21:52] This is what frightens a lot of people.
[21:54] They think about oblivion
[21:56] >> right
[21:56] >> or an abyss. It's not
[21:59] >> for the Buddhists. The idea is if you do
[22:01] silence all of this it is an
[22:03] unimaginable bliss.
[22:06] >> Yeah.
[22:06] >> Perfection. You know
[22:08] >> I think I've heard the term
[22:10] spaciousness. Yeah, spaciousness. I mean
[22:13] uh you know
[22:16] the evolution of the idea this nirvana
[22:18] or nibbana in in Pali in the original
[22:21] sense has undergone so much you know ev
[22:25] so much of change
[22:27] >> Buddhists don't really know how to
[22:28] characterize it. It seems the oldest if
[22:31] we'd go back to the you know to the can
[22:33] to the tippetaka
[22:35] it's basically complete cessation
[22:37] >> sessation of awareness such that even
[22:40] consciousness of the gods because they
[22:42] do have realms of gods that in itself is
[22:45] some form of clinging
[22:48] >> hanging on which means that it does
[22:50] involve some unfulfilling
[22:52] aspect right so if we remove even that
[22:56] highest grade of awareness for the
[22:59] Buddhist S it is pure bliss. The far
[23:02] shore is what he calls it. You know
[23:04] often the far shore the unseen.
[23:07] >> I gather the Hindus have a similar idea.
[23:10] >> Yeah the Hindu Hindus do. I mean again
[23:12] the Hindu tradition is so varied in
[23:14] scope. But the Hindus I would say would
[23:17] mostly you know equate this this if you
[23:20] want to call it with the truth of the
[23:22] Brahman.
[23:23] >> Mhm.
[23:23] >> So in some sense you are the world in
[23:25] its totality.
[23:27] You are everything.
[23:28] >> Yeah. You are this self and the real
[23:30] self.
[23:31] >> The the equation atman equals brahman.
[23:34] >> Exactly. Of course, I would say the I
[23:37] would say that Sedata's message
[23:40] um is much more radical, you know,
[23:43] because he's talking about absolute
[23:45] sessation. So, it's totally
[23:46] transcendent.
[23:47] >> The idea that we are one with
[23:50] everything, isn't it practically
[23:52] equivalent to say we we are nothing?
[23:55] >> Yeah. That's but that's basically the
[23:57] Buddhist formula. Yeah. Yeah. That means
[24:00] you are everything and nothing
[24:01] simultaneously.
[24:03] >> Mhm.
[24:03] >> Yeah. So this by the way is the later
[24:06] development of the Mahayana tradition.
[24:08] This is basically the core concept they
[24:09] develop.
[24:10] >> Mhm.
[24:10] >> Right. So they bring in this idea that u
[24:14] you are enlightened already. You just
[24:17] haven't realized it. So nirvana is
[24:18] already always the case. But for the
[24:21] Greeks with the emphasis on on the
[24:25] rationality as being the the core
[24:28] principle, the logos which I guess is
[24:30] incorporated into Christianity as well
[24:33] in the gospel of John.
[24:36] Uh that's very different.
[24:37] >> Absolutely. So here's where it's
[24:41] different. Right. So for the Greeks
[24:43] there is this idea that the more you
[24:46] cultivate reason
[24:49] the more free you become right. So the
[24:52] higher your rationality the more
[24:54] intellect you become.
[24:56] >> So much so is that you can define
[24:58] philosophy as Plato does as practicing
[25:02] death while being alive
[25:05] so that the body no longer stands in the
[25:07] way. So you develop higher orders of
[25:12] geometry to that effect. It is
[25:15] sillogical. It's salvific to gain higher
[25:17] grades of knowledge.
[25:19] >> Right? This isn't the case in in
[25:21] Buddhism because the idea there is that
[25:24] any conceptual framework is a form of
[25:25] clinging. Concepts themselves don't
[25:28] exist. They are themselves empty.
[25:31] >> Whereas for Plato and the Greeks in
[25:33] general, it's not the case. Isn't there
[25:35] the notion
[25:38] and I don't know historically where it
[25:40] begins. Diana yoga the idea that you can
[25:43] achieve enlightenment by thinking your
[25:45] way there.
[25:46] >> Yeah. I mean that was the originally a
[25:48] lot of the Buddhist traditions. They
[25:50] figured that you would have to develop
[25:52] sufficient conceptual understanding
[25:54] before you can position yourself
[25:57] in a way as to allow for enlightenment
[25:59] to occur. [clears throat]
[26:00] >> This is by the way still central to to
[26:02] Tibetan Buddhism. There are many major
[26:04] figures that develop this idea that you
[26:06] have to understand what it is you're
[26:08] doing before you get into meditation.
[26:10] That also means that all knowledge
[26:12] pursued is always pursued in favor of
[26:14] enlightenment. That is the ultimate
[26:16] goal.
[26:16] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[26:17] >> Right. It's not so different in that
[26:18] context from the Greeks. But the Greeks
[26:21] do see that there is a um you know there
[26:24] is a utility to knowledge as well. I
[26:26] mean you transform the world as well.
[26:29] Mhm.
[26:29] >> So, so in seeking salvation transforms
[26:33] the world also together. This is also
[26:36] unique to the Greek tradition. So,
[26:37] sciences are so theological.
[26:40] >> Well, now you've introduced the word
[26:42] salvation. Is that a Greek idea?
[26:44] >> Uh, well, no, that's probably a you
[26:48] know, Judeo-Christian idea.
[26:50] >> Um, but of course it has Greek roots,
[26:52] sortology. So, it seeks, you know,
[26:55] liberation or freedom in the ultimate
[26:57] sense. Um but this idea of salvation
[27:00] with esquetology and everything is more
[27:02] Judeo-Christian. Yeah.
[27:04] >> And also since we're talking about
[27:06] language,
[27:08] >> I think it's interesting that in the
[27:11] 18th century we had this notion in
[27:14] Europe of the enlightenment.
[27:17] >> And it seems to be as I understand it
[27:20] from what little I know of history, it
[27:23] had to do with the the rational mind.
[27:25] people were really developing a lot of
[27:28] rational ideas and of course challenging
[27:31] older world views through through the
[27:34] viewpoint of rationality and that was
[27:37] considered enlightened very different I
[27:40] think from the Buddhist idea of
[27:41] enlightenment but it does seem now that
[27:44] you we're talking about it to be
[27:47] consistent with the Greek notion of the
[27:49] intellect.
[27:51] >> Yeah. I mean look this is I mean the
[27:53] scope has just suddenly broadened a lot.
[27:56] [laughter]
[27:56] Um but it is a very important discussion
[27:58] for soul for a number of reasons.
[28:01] >> I mean from the philosophical
[28:02] perspective
[28:04] um the enlightenment can be said to
[28:06] begin perhaps with Decart right and
[28:09] Decart of course I think therefore I am
[28:12] is the first person I know this is being
[28:14] resounded over and over to have
[28:16] developed the distinction between the
[28:17] subject and the object. Right now the
[28:20] enlightenment as such is actually a
[28:21] greater historical movement. It it you
[28:24] know it basically works off the
[28:26] discoveries of the scientific revolution
[28:29] and the period of the renaissance before
[28:31] it. The idea is there is this triumph of
[28:34] reason.
[28:34] >> Mhm.
[28:35] >> Right. But the reason that we have at
[28:38] work here is not the salvific kind that
[28:40] you had with the Greeks.
[28:42] >> So it is a reason that is primarily
[28:44] developed for the purpose of utility.
[28:46] Mhm.
[28:48] >> So it's for the freedom of man, so to
[28:50] speak. You know, that's what the
[28:51] Renaissance was always about, right? So,
[28:55] you know, when we bring this idea into
[28:57] enlightenment, what we see then is that
[29:00] um everything else goes into the back
[29:02] burner, right? So, suddenly we no longer
[29:04] need higher questions, higher orders.
[29:07] All we need is to understand the world
[29:09] better because we are all subjects in
[29:11] this world that's seemingly chaotic
[29:13] >> and we're trying to understand it and
[29:15] unpack it, you know, so as to live a
[29:17] more comfortable life. And also I gather
[29:21] the the notion of overthrowing
[29:23] monarchies, developing a more
[29:25] enlightened democracies of course
[29:28] emerged from it. It had enormous
[29:31] political implications
[29:32] >> of course and actually we can even say
[29:34] that this is perhaps the proper you know
[29:38] individuation of soul on the historical
[29:40] level because every human being suddenly
[29:42] becomes a true permanent entity with an
[29:45] internal soul that has a reason as to
[29:47] why he or she is in this world right so
[29:52] the um you know the system of laws must
[29:55] reflect that politics must reflect that
[29:57] that's why democracy was eventually you
[29:59] know, inevitable.
[30:00] >> And in the United States, the
[30:02] Declaration of Independence
[30:05] >> seems to have emerged from these
[30:07] enlightenment ideas.
[30:09] >> That's right. Yeah. So now, if we
[30:12] understand this in its historical, you
[30:14] know, uh, you know, positioning, we see
[30:16] how radically different our
[30:18] understanding of soul has gone, you
[30:20] know, throughout the ages. There is I
[30:22] think a very good chapter it might be if
[30:24] I remember this correctly by Alistister
[30:26] McIntyre I think he called it the uh in
[30:28] his after virtue he talks about uh the
[30:33] heroic city I think it is and anyway he
[30:36] speaks about the Greeks in the sense
[30:38] that they did not understand themselves
[30:40] as different from their society. Mhm.
[30:42] >> So [clears throat] if someone committed
[30:43] a crime, they were given the option
[30:44] between execution or exile. And almost
[30:47] all Greeks would pick execution because
[30:51] nothing frightened them more than being
[30:53] exiled into something which they would
[30:56] consider a nothingness,
[30:57] non-belongingness
[30:59] because for them they already call
[31:01] extensively Greek society. They
[31:02] understand individuality in that
[31:04] conventional sense. So this is a very
[31:06] interesting anchor. I mean I don't know
[31:07] if McIntyre is you know uh completely
[31:11] right but there is on the philosophical
[31:12] level much credence to this thought
[31:15] >> and sociological even today we see
[31:18] people in cults who are afraid to leave
[31:22] the cult because their identity is so
[31:24] wrapped up in it. The philosophical
[31:27] perspective I think is a little bit more
[31:29] nuanced in that they track all of this
[31:31] not to some sociological phenomena. Not
[31:34] to for example a character of a people
[31:36] so much but more towards which everyone
[31:39] has seemingly the same ability to
[31:43] comprehend
[31:45] problems
[31:46] >> and to solve them. That's why they
[31:48] really like mathematics because it
[31:50] seemed universal. Another one example
[31:53] they really liked was astronomy.
[31:55] Everybody saw the same celestial
[31:57] movements, right? And so for them, this
[32:00] was evidence of a higher order.
[32:02] >> It was the only evidence. In fact, this
[32:04] this idea that things make sense, things
[32:07] can be made intelligible, right? For
[32:09] them, emotions, responses to certain
[32:12] pains and and joys, all of these things
[32:14] are not consistent.
[32:16] >> The world of the body, the world of
[32:19] emotions as opposed to the world of the
[32:22] intellect. We can use the example for of
[32:25] Mino Socrates amino when he teaches the
[32:29] slave boy who apparently has no training
[32:31] in geometry.
[32:32] >> Mino is the slave boy.
[32:34] >> No, it's the dialogue name. The slave
[32:35] boy is given no name.
[32:37] >> Typical of the Greeks of course during
[32:39] the time.
[32:40] >> Um and so in any case u Socrates
[32:45] illustrates that all knowledge is
[32:46] actually recollection a remembering.
[32:48] Mhm.
[32:49] >> And he illustrates this by you know
[32:51] drawing up a very basic square and then
[32:54] shows and you know explains to the boy
[32:56] only with a certain amount a little
[32:58] nudge
[32:59] >> right how to work out how to double the
[33:02] square
[33:03] >> right and then he you know explains
[33:05] later on you see I didn't really teach
[33:08] him anything he he remembered he's a
[33:11] slave boy now there are deep underlying
[33:13] message here that Plato is anti-slavery
[33:15] what not we can take that direction but
[33:17] the point is that all of awareness,
[33:20] intellect already harbors this ability
[33:23] to make sense of the world and
[33:24] mathematics, geometrical principles are
[33:27] the pinnacle of this.
[33:28] >> It doesn't sound so different from the
[33:31] idea you were expressing attached to
[33:34] Mahayana Buddhism that we're already
[33:36] enlightened.
[33:37] >> That's right. Yeah. So, I mean, in that
[33:39] sense of remembering, yes, I would say
[33:42] that's the case. In fact, if we look at
[33:45] what they understand to be the chief
[33:47] obstacle towards enlightenment, it is
[33:49] ignorance.
[33:50] >> Mhm.
[33:51] >> Right. The way they use the Sanskrit
[33:52] term of ignorance is actually unnowledge
[33:56] or non-wisdom.
[33:58] >> Right? And so this idea that once you
[34:01] remove ignorance, you suddenly have
[34:03] knowledge and you have wisdom and you
[34:06] truly understand.
[34:07] >> Isn't there something else though? Um
[34:10] the word dooka comes to mind.
[34:13] >> Yeah. That's suffering. Right. So dooka
[34:14] is the fundamental fact of experience.
[34:18] >> It's part and parcel of dependent
[34:20] origination that everything comes to be
[34:23] and everything passes away on and on
[34:25] forever in so far as you are conscious
[34:27] in so far as you cling. Right? That's
[34:30] the world the Buddhist worldview. Mh.
[34:32] >> And so in other words, to overcome this,
[34:34] you have to stop clinging so that
[34:36] there's no longer this consistent eb and
[34:39] flaw.
[34:40] >> I think in and I'm just referring now to
[34:43] contemporary society. It's often
[34:46] suggested that we develop soulfulness
[34:49] through suffering.
[34:51] >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, this is this
[34:53] is actually this is actually the
[34:55] phenomena of the modern world,
[34:58] >> right? So through suffering, through
[35:00] clinging, through desire, we ens the
[35:02] world, but we also give it meaning.
[35:04] >> Yeah.
[35:05] >> Right. So a perfect example is that why
[35:07] do we enjoy tragedy?
[35:09] >> Tragedy is considered the highest art
[35:11] form.
[35:12] >> Exactly. Right. But tragedy is quite
[35:14] literally take it in the sense of the
[35:16] word. It is a tragedy. It's suffering.
[35:17] It's pain. But it gives us this sense of
[35:21] feeling that that makes meaning uh
[35:25] present in life. I've often felt that,
[35:27] you know, the great tragedies of
[35:29] Shakespeare
[35:31] are ones that in one way or another seem
[35:34] to express the nobility of the human
[35:37] spirit in the face of suffering.
[35:40] >> Yeah. I mean that is that's one
[35:42] excellent way of looking at it. Um but
[35:44] you of course you can take this down the
[35:46] route of the Buddhist perspective. We
[35:48] can take it through Shopenhau for
[35:49] example.
[35:50] >> Shopenhau would speak about the sublime.
[35:52] We enjoy tragedy because it's sublime.
[35:55] >> And what happens when there is this
[35:56] sublime, right? He uses for example the
[35:59] moon is that for a moment, right, you
[36:03] are so captivated by your insignificance
[36:06] that your any sense of individuality
[36:08] just drops off.
[36:09] >> Mhm.
[36:10] >> And for that moment you are in a period
[36:11] of elation,
[36:13] >> right? You're free from everything else
[36:14] that makes you suffer.
[36:17] >> Right. So that is also another way of
[36:19] explaining this. You brought up the
[36:22] moon, did you?
[36:23] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, he really likes the moon
[36:25] and he uses, you know, basically, you
[36:28] know, landscapes, things that are beyond
[36:31] the human.
[36:32] >> Mhm.
[36:32] >> Right. Like, for example, a really high
[36:34] mountain peak in the middle of winter,
[36:36] snow cap, that sort of thing.
[36:38] >> There's also the idea of, again, going
[36:42] back to the emotions. The moon seems to
[36:45] govern emotions.
[36:47] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is a very old
[36:49] idea and we spoke about this briefly at
[36:50] lunch. Um to be honest for me it's a
[36:53] very fascinating topic. I am not so sure
[36:55] as to why they picked the moon
[36:57] >> but I do know that they do pick this. I
[36:59] mean this goes back to the middle ages.
[37:02] >> Um you know principally it's because
[37:05] when you have an astronomy an early form
[37:08] of astronomy and you notice that the
[37:09] moon is perfectly cyclical. It's always
[37:11] you know going around the earth. Mhm.
[37:13] >> They figure that there's some meaning to
[37:15] this and they attach metaphysical
[37:17] principles to it.
[37:18] >> Yeah.
[37:18] >> Right. For example, you know, like I
[37:20] mentioned Al Farabi earlier, he called
[37:22] it the active intellect.
[37:24] >> Right. So the sub lunar world is
[37:26] imperfect whereas the super luna world
[37:29] is perfect.
[37:31] >> Oh
[37:31] >> yeah.
[37:32] >> Well, it would also seem to have
[37:34] something to do with the masculine and
[37:36] the feminine.
[37:37] >> Yeah. Well, that I wouldn't know. I mean
[37:40] the moon is often correlated with the
[37:43] female menstrual cycles.
[37:45] >> That's right. Yeah.
[37:46] >> Yeah.
[37:46] >> The moon governs the tides.
[37:49] >> Yeah.
[37:49] >> And and water water is associated with
[37:53] the emotions.
[37:54] >> Yeah. I mean from the middle ages
[37:57] perspective it certainly had a placeh.
[38:00] >> It it you know the reason why a lot of
[38:02] these philosophers would have called it
[38:03] the active intellect is because it does
[38:05] these things. It seems to govern the
[38:08] terrestrial world. it seems to impact
[38:10] almost everything.
[38:11] >> Mhm.
[38:12] >> So that was I suppose the reason why
[38:14] they attached a lot of these
[38:15] metaphysical principles to it. Um but
[38:18] overcoming the moon meant you know no
[38:20] longer being governed by the moon. So
[38:22] you're no longer subject to let's say
[38:24] the tides as you say. It's hard to
[38:26] discuss the soul without also bringing
[38:30] up Carl Jung and Yungian psychology and
[38:34] his notion of thema which I gather for
[38:37] in Yungian thought for for males the
[38:41] soul is feminine and and for females I
[38:44] think the idea is it's an animus they
[38:47] they have a masculine soul.
[38:49] >> Certainly with the Greeks they wouldn't
[38:51] have had a gender to soul. Mhm.
[38:53] >> Um it would have overcome all bodily
[38:56] function altogether right
[38:58] >> um so you know the later theories is
[39:02] that it's self moved for example it
[39:04] doesn't have principles of corporal
[39:06] motion you know it's free it exists in
[39:10] the sense that it is just thought pure
[39:12] thought so [clears throat] these things
[39:14] don't require gender it's not
[39:16] reproducing in that sense
[39:18] >> Jung regarded his soul as as like a
[39:22] being and and He there's a passage it
[39:24] came up in an interview recently where
[39:27] from Jung's own diaries where he's
[39:30] referring to his soul and he's saying I
[39:32] made a terrible mistake. I treated you
[39:35] as an object of study instead of as a a
[39:39] teacher, a guide, a companion. I need to
[39:42] learn from you. Please teach me.
[39:44] >> Of course, he had this archetype, you
[39:46] know, the archetypes that is always, you
[39:48] know, guiding his thought. [sighs]
[39:50] >> Um, yeah. Look, I mean, I don't have
[39:52] much to say about KL Jung's perspective.
[39:54] I think he was beholden to the idea that
[39:56] soul was an entity.
[39:57] >> Mhm.
[39:58] >> And that it did somehow, you know, have
[40:02] an extra bodily life.
[40:05] But I'm not sure he developed that
[40:07] theory completely.
[40:09] Um I'm not sure he had a concrete
[40:11] understanding himself.
[40:13] >> No, I suppose he left it at at the level
[40:15] of it's an archetype.
[40:17] >> Yeah, I think so. But then then
[40:20] archetypes themselves seem to be a very
[40:23] powerful concept that that is still
[40:26] eluding us.
[40:28] >> Well, this is not really my area of
[40:29] expertise, but I see this a lot in in uh
[40:32] a lot of scientists that breach into
[40:34] this topics. For example, you know, you
[40:36] have the morphic field of Rupert Shre,
[40:39] >> right? It's not so different, right?
[40:40] >> The morphic field.
[40:42] >> Yeah. The morphic field, how the morphic
[40:43] resonance works,
[40:45] >> right? Um well to me it seems like you
[40:48] know a lot of contemporary science is
[40:50] trying to make sense of [sighs]
[40:53] um a incorporal form of awareness
[40:58] >> an awareness that is not restricted by
[41:00] bodily you know function
[41:01] >> I would say the paranormal but
[41:03] >> the paranormal yes absolutely yeah
[41:06] >> um but to be honest it only makes sense
[41:08] because you know if we are to look from
[41:11] the perspective of soul right I'm a
[41:13] product of how many generations before
[41:15] me as are you. [clears throat]
[41:16] >> And there is some consistency between
[41:18] generations, right? We bring a world
[41:21] with us, you know, along the way. We're
[41:23] bringing a world a world that can be
[41:26] made sense of in much the same way.
[41:28] Mathematical principles that work today
[41:30] work 500 years ago, right? So there is
[41:33] some consistency to this. And so if the
[41:36] world is consistently changing, but
[41:39] these principles don't, you would have
[41:41] to automatically infer that it already
[41:43] persists. Well, the soul though is a
[41:46] principle that does change. We've gone
[41:48] from the eternal soul to the anata to
[41:52] from the all to the nothing. It actually
[41:56] does remind me of the yin-yang uh logo
[41:59] for this channel that everything
[42:02] contains within it the seat of its own
[42:04] opposite.
[42:05] >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, so what I
[42:07] would say is that our understanding of
[42:09] the self
[42:11] >> has varied extensively throughout
[42:13] history. Yeah.
[42:14] >> Right. But what hasn't changed is
[42:16] awareness the way we engage the world.
[42:19] >> Right. So we still maintain this sort of
[42:23] you know to me the fundamental pre
[42:26] predisposition would be the desire to
[42:29] make sense of the world. But when I say
[42:32] the world I I think I mean even more
[42:35] more expansive like existence.
[42:37] >> Mhm.
[42:37] >> There is there seems to be this angst to
[42:40] consciousness itself that it wants to
[42:42] know itself. Yeah.
[42:43] >> Which of course Kant made very famous by
[42:45] saying reason cannot extend beyond
[42:47] itself.
[42:48] >> Right. He recognized this. Right. And of
[42:51] course you mentioned duka.
[42:53] >> Mhm.
[42:54] >> Um only recently we started scholars
[42:56] have started to think well duka actually
[42:58] means unease. Normally it was understood
[43:01] as just suffering you know straight out.
[43:04] But it's not necessarily the case. It
[43:06] means you know unease unfulfillment.
[43:10] there is this desire to complete
[43:12] something. It seems to me that this is
[43:15] what is fundamental to existence itself,
[43:17] this awareness, right?
[43:19] >> And um it seems consistent throughout
[43:22] history.
[43:23] >> Although I accept the scientific data
[43:26] pointing to an afterlife, there is this
[43:29] sense that if if I were to die right
[43:32] now,
[43:34] there would be lots of things in my life
[43:37] that would be incomplete.
[43:40] Yeah. And so you would imagine that this
[43:42] would have a carryover effect.
[43:45] >> Um in fact to my mind it would seem
[43:49] um it would seem irrational to suppose
[43:51] that it goes nowhere,
[43:53] >> right? Because that same desire is why
[43:57] you are here in the first place. And so
[44:00] when you're no longer here,
[44:03] how can it be that it just ends? Right?
[44:06] So that's the tricky point for me.
[44:08] But again, what it is that persists in
[44:11] the subsequent let's say let's call it
[44:12] rebirth. That's the tricky problem. How
[44:15] do we figure out what it is? [laughter]
[44:17] Well, and Buddhism is a very interesting
[44:20] example of of the fine edge of paradox
[44:24] that they uh seem to accept
[44:27] reincarnation but not the idea of a soul
[44:30] that reincarnates.
[44:31] >> That's right. So, and this is why they
[44:34] cultivate meditation. So for them the
[44:37] reason why you can for example recollect
[44:40] prior lives which is pardon you know
[44:42] parcel of the meditative tradition the
[44:44] supernowledges
[44:46] >> is because you are a no self in the
[44:48] first place. So when you meditate to a
[44:50] certain state of awareness you are
[44:53] tapping into a field of awareness which
[44:55] is your own lif stream. It's it's a
[44:58] karmic field that goes back countless
[45:00] lives.
[45:01] >> Is there a word for that?
[45:03] >> Which word? the live stream.
[45:04] >> Samati, I think.
[45:06] >> Yeah.
[45:07] >> Could you say that again?
[45:08] >> Samati.
[45:09] >> Samati.
[45:10] >> Yeah. You'll have to double check that.
[45:11] >> All right.
[45:12] >> So, it's continuity. That's the idea.
[45:15] It's a continuity. And so, when you
[45:18] meditate,
[45:19] right, and you suddenly have developed
[45:22] this high level of insight,
[45:24] >> you are freed from the constraints of
[45:26] the body which traps you only in
[45:27] conceptual proliferation. Suddenly
[45:30] you're able to recollect what was
[45:32] already making you present in this life.
[45:36] >> So you so the Buddha famously
[45:38] recollected all his pri in incarnations
[45:40] thousands millions of lives. Um and they
[45:43] do this on the basis of a no self.
[45:46] >> Mhm.
[45:47] >> Because you cannot recollect if you are
[45:48] the soul here and another soul there and
[45:50] another soul there. It's not the same.
[45:53] >> Well, but if you're one soul going all
[45:55] the way through, well, that's the life
[45:57] stream.
[45:58] >> That's right. Yeah, that would be the
[45:59] live stream. That's how you'd understand
[46:01] it.
[46:01] >> Well, let if if I may take you back to
[46:04] the Christian notion.
[46:06] Is it the case actually? Let see if we
[46:10] can pin it down that the let's take
[46:13] Aquinus. Does he accept the idea of an
[46:16] eternal soul?
[46:17] >> Yeah, he believes the soul is immortal.
[46:19] He's explicit about this. The best way
[46:21] to define it is that the soul is vition
[46:25] will accompanied by intellect. Mhm.
[46:28] [clears throat]
[46:28] >> Um so there is an equal balance between
[46:30] valition and intellect right or will
[46:34] when you die that soul basically goes to
[46:38] judgment and depending how you've lived
[46:40] your life if you lived your life he's
[46:42] Greek here in this sense if you're
[46:44] virtuous then your life would be
[46:46] rewarded
[46:47] >> because you understood rationality so
[46:49] you were prone to head towards reason
[46:52] >> even without the Christian context it's
[46:53] pretty much Greek
[46:55] >> but if let's say you lived a life
[46:57] without virtue then that's where you're
[46:59] headed you're headed towards suffering
[47:00] because virtue is irrational and
[47:02] irrationality is equivalent with
[47:04] suffering
[47:05] >> so he makes it very clear in that sense
[47:07] but it is eternal nonetheless
[47:10] mean if you have one lifetime and if you
[47:13] are not a a good person a good rational
[47:17] person you'll be condemned for all
[47:19] eternity to suffer
[47:21] >> whether it's for all eternity or not uh
[47:24] that's you know that's a bit difficult
[47:26] to answer but definitely you will go
[47:29] through some form of purgatory.
[47:31] >> Mhm.
[47:32] >> Right. There will be a process where you
[47:34] you you know slowly purify your soul
[47:36] from all the stains. In general the
[47:38] Christian tradition doesn't even accept
[47:40] a pre-bodily existence so that the soul
[47:44] is incipient with the body.
[47:45] >> Mhm.
[47:46] >> It becomes you know uh it's created as
[47:50] it were. Some Christian thinkers took
[47:53] exception to this. For example, people
[47:55] like Clement of Alexandria who was much
[47:57] much more earlier than Aquinas. He does
[47:59] speak of a pre-bodily existence, but he
[48:01] describes it as the intellect. He takes
[48:03] the Greek sense. So the intellect
[48:05] descends at some point and on the scent
[48:07] it assumes a body and that's where the
[48:09] soul comes to being.
[48:10] >> So the pre-existence of the soul is a
[48:14] controversial idea in Christianity.
[48:16] >> Absolutely. That is Yeah. And it's a
[48:18] very interesting one because the the
[48:22] subject matter of reincarnation or
[48:23] rebirth that's completely that's that's
[48:25] non-negotiable
[48:26] >> right
[48:27] >> in Christianity in general you won't
[48:28] have reincarnation but the the point
[48:31] about preexisting souls prior to the
[48:33] body that's a big one
[48:36] >> um more ancient uh Christians would have
[48:38] would have been more favorably
[48:41] predisposed to this idea but the later
[48:43] thinkers were not.
[48:45] >> Mhm. [clears throat] The Arabic thinkers
[48:46] like Al Farabi and Alkindi definitely
[48:49] were they because they were they were
[48:51] more pleness so to speak. So they
[48:54] basically said that the soul and the
[48:55] intellect are indistinguishable as we've
[48:57] already spoken about. So pre-existence
[48:59] already makes sense.
[49:01] >> But they also don't believe in
[49:03] reincarnation. For them it doesn't make
[49:05] sense that a body can be recycled.
[49:08] Right? So they think that the body's
[49:10] uniqueness is that one life. It's that
[49:13] [clears throat] one's sold life. They
[49:15] don't have a concept of resurrection.
[49:17] >> No, they have bodily resurrection in the
[49:19] sense of judgment day,
[49:22] >> right? Or the final day they call it.
[49:24] >> So they do have a concept of
[49:26] >> Yeah. But it's not typically the body as
[49:29] we understand it. It's really
[49:31] complicated because you know a lot of
[49:34] these Arabic thinkers who were more
[49:36] philosophers than they were pious
[49:37] Muslims, Iben Cena for example, would
[49:39] have said that this is all metaphorical
[49:41] >> and it's not quite resurrection that's
[49:43] at work. It is whatever's you know
[49:45] retained
[49:46] >> of the intellect while you were in this
[49:48] life.
[49:49] >> But when you talk to mymonities or other
[49:53] Christian thinkers when they speak of
[49:55] resurrection it's not so different from
[49:58] the idea we've been talking about the
[50:01] transhumanists
[50:03] being resurrected in a computer. It
[50:05] would be the the physical resurrection
[50:08] of the body atom by Adam.
[50:10] >> That's right. I mean my monities was
[50:11] famous because he was you know he was uh
[50:14] not necessarily a proponent of
[50:16] individuation being maintained after you
[50:18] die. He was about the active intellect
[50:22] um basically assuming whatever you
[50:24] whatever you live through back into
[50:26] itself and then you become one with the
[50:28] active intellect of humanity.
[50:30] >> Yeah.
[50:31] >> So it's not necessarily soul the way we
[50:33] understand in a conventional sense.
[50:35] >> Um but in the same time it is immortal.
[50:39] So there is something to it
[50:41] [clears throat]
[50:41] >> and um for me this seems to be the
[50:43] biggest challenge with understanding
[50:45] soul and why soul is such an interesting
[50:46] topic because
[50:49] in a general sense across the entire
[50:52] tradition or legacy of the western
[50:54] civilization is that something survives
[50:57] >> but is it individuated or not
[51:00] >> big question
[51:01] >> that's the big and I think that was
[51:02] actually where you landed with your
[51:05] essay in the end
[51:06] >> it is a big question but there are
[51:08] examples certainly that I bring up in my
[51:12] essay of for Dr. Lang, the uh eye
[51:17] surgeon who who died and was
[51:20] resurrected, you could say, in in the
[51:22] form of a spirit guide and conducted
[51:26] healings for decades
[51:29] and maintained his original identity to
[51:32] such an extent that Dr. Lang's daughter
[51:36] bequeafd a large portion of her estate
[51:38] when she died to the medium who was
[51:41] channeling her father.
[51:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. And of
[51:45] course, we can take Ian Stevenson's
[51:46] research
[51:49] that, you know, all these children that
[51:50] sort of they take up these memories
[51:54] >> with such meticulous detail. But then
[51:56] again, I don't think I'm not so beholden
[51:58] to the idea that this resolves the
[52:00] problem. It could [laughter]
[52:03] it could be just memories, right? It
[52:05] could be just, you know,
[52:06] >> yes, it could,
[52:07] >> you know, it's not necessarily that this
[52:09] soul ejected from this body,
[52:11] >> right?
[52:11] >> It's not so clear.
[52:12] >> It could be a transfer of memory, a
[52:15] transfer of information.
[52:17] >> Exactly. And this is what I think the
[52:19] Greeks were most likely, you know, a
[52:22] proponents of. Well, I don't think we
[52:25] can conclude our study or our
[52:28] examination of the concept of soul
[52:30] without referring to the fact that you
[52:33] just returned from a visit to Utah where
[52:36] you gave a lecture to the Mormon trans
[52:40] humanist association concerning the idea
[52:44] of the physical resurrection of the
[52:47] body.
[52:48] >> That's right. So, the Church of
[52:50] Latter-day Saints has a very interesting
[52:53] theology. if you want to call it that,
[52:56] whereby the world is eternal and human
[52:59] beings are also immortal.
[53:01] And so this whole idea that human beings
[53:05] are already on the path to God.
[53:07] >> So transhumanism is already basically
[53:10] consistent with this doctrine is just
[53:12] putting it to work in the real world.
[53:15] >> So for me, this was all really
[53:16] fascinating because they're effectively
[53:18] putting a religious framework into
[53:20] practice in the scientific domain.
[53:23] Right? Of course, they don't accept
[53:25] reincarnation, at least not from what I
[53:28] understand. They nonetheless accept that
[53:30] there is an immortal intelligence
[53:33] that is at work which can be cultivated
[53:37] in the life of the body. It's really
[53:39] fascinating stuff. So, we see that this
[53:41] is even, you know, this is a relatively
[53:43] modern religion.
[53:44] >> So, we see that this idea is, you know,
[53:46] still prevalent today. And if I recall
[53:49] correctly from the the advertisement uh
[53:53] for your lecture, you you argued that
[53:56] there is potentially a scriptural or a
[53:59] religious obligation that we have today
[54:03] to resurrect ourselves inside of
[54:07] computers.
[54:08] >> Yeah. Um well, I mean, I wouldn't say
[54:12] for computers. [laughter]
[54:13] >> Okay.
[54:14] >> Yeah. Um but there is certainly you know
[54:17] there is certainly ways of reading
[54:18] scripture in that sense
[54:21] and not even just church of latter day
[54:23] saints scripture like the book of
[54:24] Mormon. I mean you could read certain
[54:28] >> the orthodox tradition can be read in
[54:29] such a way I mean for example the famous
[54:31] Russian cosmist Nikolai Fodov.
[54:33] >> Yeah
[54:33] >> that's how he read Christianity. He read
[54:36] the New Testament. He said that this is
[54:37] what we're meant to do.
[54:39] >> Uh the kingdom of God is not some
[54:42] further place away. it is here. We just
[54:45] have to achieve it ourselves.
[54:47] Um much of this has to do with again
[54:49] awareness being the only thing that can
[54:52] be cultivated. Everything else is
[54:54] superfluous and subject to change.
[54:56] >> Mhm.
[54:57] >> Uh so all of this takes us back to the
[54:59] same problem. You know what is it that
[55:01] really persists? Is it individuated or
[55:03] not? Mhm. [clears throat]
[55:04] >> Um and so if we accept this idea that we
[55:08] do have an incorporal form of awareness,
[55:10] consciousness that is not bound by the
[55:13] confines of the body, then it makes
[55:16] every sense of the term, at least to me
[55:18] logically, to cultivate it to the
[55:20] greatest degree possible.
[55:22] And this is what it means on the obverse
[55:24] to become insold
[55:25] >> from the perspective of the Russian
[55:27] cosmists and Fodderov in particular to
[55:32] migrate into outer space is is almost a
[55:35] religious duty.
[55:36] >> In fact, it's not only a religious duty.
[55:38] Fodorov had this sense that it was
[55:40] inevitable.
[55:40] >> Mhm.
[55:41] >> And that human expansion towards the
[55:43] stars was exploring God's garden which
[55:46] is the world. Right. The onus is on us.
[55:50] But Fodov has a very despite all his
[55:53] heavy palemic towards the Buddhist
[55:56] tradition he has a lot in common with
[55:58] them. Mhm.
[55:59] >> He says for example that we cannot do
[56:01] any of this. We cannot realize this
[56:03] ultimate this ultimate common task as he
[56:06] calls it um until we overcome enmity.
[56:10] Right? Until we overcome base human
[56:14] desires,
[56:15] >> right? So he says unless we no longer
[56:18] think about ourself only about
[56:20] ourselves,
[56:22] >> right? Then we cannot do this. So he saw
[56:26] that there must be a brotherhood, a
[56:28] sisterhood
[56:29] >> of our species whereby we are all
[56:32] collectively conscripted. He uses the
[56:35] term conscripted towards bringing the
[56:38] kingdom of God to earth to the world.
[56:42] >> Does he Fodor talk about the individual
[56:45] soul at all?
[56:47] >> He talks about it automatically as
[56:49] co-extensive with the rest of the
[56:51] species. Mhm.
[56:52] >> So in other words, and this is very
[56:54] interesting because FOV is unusually
[56:56] radical. I mean truly original
[56:59] >> as far as originality goes. He's about
[57:01] as original as it gets. So his um his
[57:03] mission statement is um universal
[57:06] resurrection.
[57:07] That means you are to resurrect every
[57:09] one of your ancestors all the way back
[57:12] to every single human being that's ever
[57:14] lived.
[57:15] Until that is achieved, none of us are
[57:17] complete.
[57:19] So how do we understand soul then? You
[57:21] know, we're only truly
[57:24] um a self if you want to call it that or
[57:27] truly soul or truly alive if we are all
[57:30] together
[57:31] >> here now or where.
[57:32] >> Well, this evokes the idea of the group
[57:35] soul.
[57:36] >> Yeah, definitely.
[57:37] >> Or or the soul of the world.
[57:39] >> That's right. Yeah. And of course, when
[57:41] he has this idea that you are to
[57:42] resurrect every single human being, he
[57:44] has in mind that you are making
[57:46] consciousness as aware as possible.
[57:48] >> Mhm. So death for fov is not a good
[57:51] thing. It is that which is to be
[57:52] overcome.
[57:54] >> So death
[57:55] >> death. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So in
[57:59] that sense you know he also
[58:00] problematizes the issue of bodily
[58:03] resurrection and judgment day and
[58:05] everything. Uh because if we are to do
[58:07] all the work then there is no
[58:09] resurrection. There's just completeness.
[58:11] >> And sometimes he calls it the
[58:13] completeness of being. So he thinks once
[58:15] everyone's resurrected, everybody no
[58:17] longer has any enmity, no more
[58:19] animosity, perfect harmony.
[58:21] >> Yeah.
[58:21] >> Then even the the the chaotic forces of
[58:25] nature which he calls a chaotic, they
[58:27] would sort of mellow out into perfect
[58:29] harmony. So it is fundamentally
[58:31] metaphysical what he's thinking about
[58:33] here. Well, if death is something to be
[58:35] overcome, one assumes he doesn't accept
[58:38] survival in in the
[58:42] [clears throat] sense that I write about
[58:44] it in my essay.
[58:46] >> Yeah, it doesn't look like it. I mean,
[58:47] by all accounts, if we follow the
[58:49] reasoning through to its end,
[58:50] >> it seems like every time you die for
[58:52] fear of non-being has gotten the upper
[58:56] hand on being.
[58:57] >> Yeah.
[58:57] >> He has this dialectic at work in his
[58:59] writings.
[59:01] The point however is that humanity is
[59:03] still immortal because we keep
[59:05] reproducing anyway but we keep
[59:07] reproducing and going through the ages
[59:09] of history
[59:11] always you know
[59:14] antagonistic to non-being.
[59:17] So it's not going anywhere until we
[59:19] suddenly stop fragmentation sort of any
[59:23] discordance between ourselves. it will
[59:26] continue you know life after life after
[59:28] life
[59:28] >> and yet we have in the near-death
[59:31] literature people who say that this
[59:33] state of perfect harmony universal love
[59:37] beyond anything one imagines while in
[59:40] the body is what they experience many of
[59:43] them in the in the near-death state
[59:46] >> yeah so as we can see that we really
[59:48] don't know what soul is [laughter]
[59:52] truly yeah I mean this would definitely
[59:54] contradict what Fodov would say Fodov
[59:57] would say no. I mean life is everything.
[59:59] >> He would say that life and death are
[1:00:02] opposed to each other.
[1:00:03] >> Absolutely.
[1:00:04] >> And I think I might say the opposite
[1:00:07] that life and death are intimately
[1:00:10] connected with each other.
[1:00:11] >> Buddhists don't like life and death as a
[1:00:14] cycle either.
[1:00:15] >> They think that's what perpetuates
[1:00:17] suffering. I mean the central message is
[1:00:18] to overcome
[1:00:20] and the cycles of rebirth.
[1:00:22] >> Mhm. So you're no longer dead or alive
[1:00:25] when when you retain nirvana.
[1:00:28] >> So I mean this is also another way of
[1:00:30] understanding soul. It could be very
[1:00:32] much the case that soul itself whatever
[1:00:35] it is is transforming the way it
[1:00:38] understands itself throughout the
[1:00:40] history
[1:00:40] >> because as you can see we've reached the
[1:00:42] age now where we're not so negatively
[1:00:44] inclined toward death. We see death as a
[1:00:47] greater part of life. It makes life
[1:00:48] complete.
[1:00:49] >> Yeah.
[1:00:50] Whereas other other you know traditions
[1:00:52] as we already talked about don't. They
[1:00:54] see the opposite.
[1:00:55] >> I guess the simple truth is we live in a
[1:00:58] world where both ideas have have their
[1:01:03] supporters.
[1:01:04] >> The embracing of opposition between life
[1:01:06] and death seems to be the you know the
[1:01:09] the dominant trend today.
[1:01:11] >> This idea of the celebration of of life
[1:01:14] and death.
[1:01:15] >> I think we see it in literature, we see
[1:01:17] it in poetry, we see it in the arts. Um,
[1:01:20] yeah, I mean it it it's uh it's
[1:01:23] certainly an interesting topic to think
[1:01:25] about.
[1:01:25] >> Emil Alexandro, what a pleasure to have
[1:01:29] a conversation with you about the soul.
[1:01:33] >> Thank you very much. It's
[1:01:35] >> we we could talk for 10,000 years.
[1:01:38] >> Absolutely. [laughter] I'm sure this
[1:01:39] conversation will extend beyond this
[1:01:41] session.
[1:01:42] >> Yeah. I'm It's so wonderful to have you
[1:01:45] here in Albuquerque and I definitely
[1:01:49] want you back before you leave.
[1:01:51] >> Thank you very much. It's a great honor.
[1:01:53] >> It's It's a joy for me. Truly a a joy.
[1:01:58] And I venture to say it's a joy for our
[1:02:01] viewers as well.
[1:02:03] >> I hope so too. Yeah. And for those of
[1:02:06] you watching or listening, thank you for
[1:02:10] being with us because you you are the
[1:02:14] reason that we are here.
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